Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and today we are discussing the role of spirituality
in the vegan movement. According to a 2017 survey,
73 % of vegans self -identify as atheists or
agnostics. That's why I know this might not be
the most popular opinion But I deeply believe
that leading a spiritual practice is not only
a powerful way to deal with the struggle of being
an outspoken vegan in a non -vegan world, but
also an essential part of a happy, healthy life.
To discuss the power of spirituality, I'm joined
by Victoria Moran. Victoria is a longtime animal
activist, successful author, she has written
more than 13 books, a fellow podcaster, she is
the host of the Main Street Vegan podcast, go
check it out, and yogi. During the interview,
Victoria references many great resources to kickstart
your spiritual journey. Visit the episode's notes
to access each of her recommendations, and connect
with her. As always, I invite you to follow the
show, share the podcast with the staunch atheist
you know, and spark an interesting conversation.
Leave a good review. Every gesture of support
is appreciated. Thank you. Thinking about the
conversation we were about to have, what came
to mind were multiple conversations, starting
with one I had with Gary Yourofsky. So he has
been a very polemic figure these past few weeks
since his return from retirement. I had the exclusive
interview with him, you know, little... time
after, you know, he announced that he was back.
People highlighted many parts of that interview,
but I guess the one part of the interview that
truly stayed with me was the beginning where
he talked about his struggle as a long time animal
rights activist, how he hasn't had a good night
of sleep in years. how he has those intrusive
thoughts all the time, and the list goes on.
And that felt like a great encapsulation of many
other conversations I had with many other animal
rights activists, how their activism and what
they've been through being just vegan has been
haunting them. And every time I'm confronted
with that experience, all I want to do is to
say, you should, you should become spiritual.
You should find, you know, some kind of spiritual
tradition or religious tradition, because, and
it's my personal bias, you know, it Has brought
me so much in my life it hasn't rich my life
and it has protected me against. The harm that
they are experiencing but i can't say that to
them you can't just you know. Cold call you know
a pitch a spiritual life to two people like that
i feel people are not really receptive to that
they take it as a joke and so. What is your opinion
on on that whole issue? I think that you can
say anything as long as you keep it an eye message.
Now if somebody was telling me that they were
in that kind of distress, I would say it's really
tough. Something that I do is meditate or you
know, whatever, and and see how they take it.
But I think People need different things. I mean,
one of the people I admire the most who has done
so much for animals is Ingrid Newkirk. And she
is famously atheistic, which doesn't mean she's
not spiritual. She might not think of herself
as spiritual, but she is. She has a spirit of
love. And certainly in the judeo christian tradition
god is love and if you got that it doesn't matter
if you have the god part you got the love part
so you pretty much got both i think that people
are different. And that some people. Do fine
without something that they call a spiritual
life maybe they are. very very involved in life
on earth maybe in addition to their animal activism
they have some kind of passion for music or something
like that that really keeps them balanced and
kind of fired up but i think all these things
can be considered spiritual i think for myself
maybe because i've been around this movement
so long and i went vegetarian in nineteen sixty
nine and was doing protests and things in the
early seventies in fact i had a funny experience
a couple years ago previous dog had a really
hard time with fireworks and so on the fourth
of july we would find an old hotel. in Midtown
Manhattan that has these really thick walls and
you can't hear the fireworks. So we were at one
of these hotels and I was just there with the
dog and I was bored and I decided to look up
my maiden name, myself with my maiden name, and
I married my first husband in 1977. So that name
was, you know, way back, but it came up and it
came up. with these animal rights demonstrations,
because it was so unusual, like particularly
the ones that we did at a livestock and horse
show in Kansas City, my hometown. So I've been
around it a long time. And I think then it was
so weird and so out there that I don't think
we got as heartbroken because it was just so
new. It's like, of course, nobody understands
this because nobody knows about it. And now we're
in a place where the term animal rights is out
there. The word vegan is out there. There are
videos all over social media. A lot of people
have seen stuff and most choose to ignore it.
So I think there is more cause for grief, maybe
for people coming into the movement now, even
though we've made so much progress. I agree.
And thank you so much for mentioning that you
can be an atheist and absolutely have a spiritual
life. There is this concept. I don't know who
is it from, but that there is a transcendent
spirituality, which would be the Y axis, I think,
and then a more horizontal spirituality, which
is more about the way we relate to others and
what connects us. And by others, let's include
animals too. Absolutely. Well, for me, it's a
lot about, you know, there's God transcendent
we have a degree in comparative religion so i
love these terms but so many of the religious
traditions would talk about god transcendent
god imminent and to me the eminent thing is really
really important because i think that's how we're
connected to everybody else all species. All
nature probably all atoms and. i'm reading a
book now it's so funny this book was recommended
to me in my twenties. And i must have leafed
through it at some point at that time and just
thought oh it's not for me and now i've found
it again it's called the impersonal life and
you would call it channel because it's i guess
kind of like conversations with god which i never
read but it's it's as if god is is speaking but.
What is being said and this book was written
in nineteen fourteen written by or coming through
however you wanna look at it protestant clergy
person and the idea is. That that god or the
divine or whatever you wanna call it is within
us is really. All that is and what we're called
upon to do is know that and express that and
that was a beautiful concept for me because I'm
also very interested in yoga philosophy and That's
what that is all about as well. It's the idea
that Enlightenment certainly in Vedanta and and
some schools of yoga is to know that we are that
And to me, when we're doing something like animal
rights activism, we're coming from that inner
essence, whether we acknowledge it or not, but
we're propelled to do things that we wouldn't
ordinarily have the strength or the courage to
do. We're able to go places that aren't uplifting,
that are heartbreaking, if necessary, to do What
needs to be done? And I mean, that's why to me
somebody like Ingrid Newkirk is an atheist, but
she's also a saint It's like those those two
things can can exist in the same place Then how
do you explain the fact that most vegan activists
I come across have no semblance of like spiritual
life, they define themselves as, like you said,
like Ingrid defines herself, atheist, secular,
don't talk to me about meditation or whatever.
Well, I think part of it is that we do have spirituality
and religion very tied when we talk about it.
And people who grew up in a religion or who didn't,
but just heard about religion as this odd thing
where there's some kind of god off there somewhere
that rewards and punishes people and is supposed
to be love but you know in many scriptures did
some pretty awful things and so i think a lot
of people are like no no no and that's the one
that allows this to happen to animals so i think
the big argument is you know you just go where
you want to go with your spirituality as long
as animals are being treated the way they are
there is no kind of divine whatever in in the
universe but i think we can do that and then
we're just kind of alone and bereft with it and
i certainly don't Understand animal suffering
i think that my studies into spirituality and
i studied the religions of the world academically
but the two that are really prominent within
me are christianity cuz that's what i grew up
in and of the danta and yoga philosophy because
that's what i found as a young person and have
been exploring ever since so. On my altar which
I'm looking at right now right in the center
is this picture and you can find it online and
you can order one from eBay, but it's Jesus in
the Himalayas or you could put in Jesus meditating
with animals and it's this beautiful beautiful
picture of Jesus supposedly supposedly drawn
from life when he was in the himalayas during
his last years i don't know about that part but
he's he's in the lotus position and there are
birds around him and there are little little
bunny little lizard crawling on him and there's
a tiger sleeping beside him and it's this beautiful
image to me of what i think you and i are talking
about spirituality and how it brings so much
love for these animals. Another interesting historical
tidbit around Christianity is that in the early
Christian era, the first 200 years before the
Council of Constantinople probably, I think I
said that wrong. Yeah, Council of Constantinople.
I think that's right. But anyway, the first couple
of hundred years there were so many vegetarians
and they were probably vegan because at that
time in history the idea that you would raise
an animal for so -called byproducts I don't think
that would have computed so they were vegan or
certainly vegetarian and We certainly don't have
in the gospels jesus talking about being vegetarian
there's the one mention of after the resurrection
that he may have eaten a piece of fish i don't
know but what i do know historically. Is that
a huge percentage of the early christians. were
vegetarian on purpose and even saint paul talks
about that in in his letters would you guys just
stop the thing with all talking about your your
diet there are more important things because
he was you know we made but there were so many
there's a beautiful book called vegetarian christian
saints by uh... holly roberts interesting woman
uh... medical doctor She's Jewish and interested
in Christianity and you know, I just love it
when people have all these all these things combined
But it's so interesting to me. And when I think
about that It wasn't an edict of this fledgling
church but I think when somebody like Jesus if
he is at all who people think that he was who
I think that he was They bring so much love that
that love remains on earth energetically. And
when you are vibrating in tune with that, you
can't harm, you can't kill. And I think that
is actually why there were so many vegetarians.
And so to me, as spiritual vegans, we can work
alongside the vegan activists who don't have
any interest in spirituality, but we can bring
that other part. We can bring that uplift. We
can bring that kind of healing energy. And yes,
what happens to animals is unspeakable. And so
we are doing on every level what we can do and
trusting that more people will come along and
more will be done and we'll get through this
thing. We'll see animal liberation, not in our
lifetime, perhaps, but at some point before too
terribly long. Let me get back to that argument
the secular atheist vegans make, which is religion
is responsible for animal exploitation. I do
think there is some truth in that. But then when
you just, you know, scratch the surface, there's
so much evidence, so many passages from holy
scriptures that support and from all religions
that support the vegan lifestyle. And, and so
why aren't, you know, religious people more in
tune with the vegan message? Yeah. In 2019, My
husband, who was 67 at the time, walked into
this room where I was working and he said, I'm
going to go back to school. Which was, well,
OK, I mean, people do that at all ages. And then
he said, I'm going to study theology. And then
I almost fell off the chair because I've always
been very much into spirituality. And he was
always very accepting. You know, that's Victoria.
That's what she does. That's fine. I don't disregard
it. It's just not me. And he said, I want to
understand how the religions of the world have
so missed out on God's other creatures. So he
ended up at the one spirit seminary and became
ordained as a minister, interfaith minister.
And I think that's really at the center of it,
that people see what religions have done and
have not done. And I think the main thing with
animals is they've been used throughout history
for human needs. And one could argue that there
was a time when there was no other option for
humans to get around to have food, clothing,
whatever. We live now. So what people had to
do at some other time or some other place, I
don't know if it's all that relevant. But I think
and it depends also on the religion and how animal
lives are regarded. It's not hatred. It's it's
Not a focus you know it's like so many other
things in life you know if you have a history
if you really into a certain kind of music or
a certain pastime and it's just all absorbing
to you and somebody else's never even heard of
it can you think huh and yet you know they have
it i mean. I met a cardiologist recently who
had never heard of Dean Ornish. And to me, that's
like an infectious disease doctor that's never
heard of Louis Pasteur. But they're out there.
Now, interestingly enough, this cardiologist
is quite young. And I think that the vegan activists
that you're talking about for the most part are
also quite young. Because when I became vegan,
It was very much about spirituality for a great
many people, because if you look historically
at vegetarianism around the world, it was almost
always tied to a religion. So the big surge,
of course, was with the British first trade relationship
and then colonization of India. And so there
was this exchange of cultures. And people in
england and people who could read english learned
about the ideas of hinduism buddhism jainism
the him so religions they learned about vegetarianism
reincarnation all this stuff was widely known
in in england and other places in the seventeen
eighteen hundreds i mean the history in colonial
america. was utterly fascinating. Do you know,
for example, of a French Jesuit missionary named
Sebastian Rail? Is that a familiar name? No.
Well, I learned this because there's this very
cool woman in Maine who researches vegetarian
history of New England. So anyway, Father Sebastian
came over to make all the native people become
Catholic. But when he got here and when he met
the native people, he realized that he had as
much to learn from them as they did from him.
He learned their language. He actually was killed
in a skirmish when he took the side of the native
people against the Europeans. But here's what's
interesting. He was vegan. He was vegan in France.
He was vegan when he came to America and wrote
about that. And you find these people, I just
wrote a blog post that I called 13 million points
of light, that as vegans, that's what we are.
That we're these beautiful radiant centers of
hope and possibility. And for people in the Judeo
-Christian tradition, anybody who's vegan and
has a vegan home has recreated Eden. Because
even was vegan everybody was vegan all the now
carnivorous animals in in the Genesis creation
story were vegan I mean at even after the fall
Adam and Eve all the human they were still vegan
although they were now you know in a place where
there's gonna be sickness and death and trouble
and all that and The story goes that God said
okay, you know now That he didn't say it like
this but the way i say it is the hawaiian vacation
diet the fruits and the nuts that's not going
to do it for you. You gotta have some kale and
so you know the foods that before only animals
not human animals had eaten where then. Allowed
for humans and interestingly enough even after
the fall according to the story and i'm not saying
that i'm a biblical literalist but i just find
these parallels so fascinating that. Adam and
Eve and family were no longer in Eden. They were
gonna die, but Everybody lived a really really
long time until the flood when there was a Dispensation
for eating animals and and there you go, but
I think that these kinds of influences brought
the idea of a himsa coming from from India and
And the idea of this reverence for life, it really
pushed it out into the world. And so you had
people like through something called the Bible
Christian Church. It was really big in England,
early eighteen hundreds came to America. They
settled in Pennsylvania because that was, you
know, the big freedom of religion state and.
And there were just so many others and then you
get like the seventh day Adventists who are still
with us and so what happens when you're a vegan
is to speak biblically you are recreating Eden
you are bringing to life that Isaiah prophecy
of the peace on earth when everybody lives harmoniously
together. And it's not the whole planet right
now and it's not. whole countries or whole cities.
But every vegan household, whatever it looks
like, is that little Eden. And there's something
very powerful about that. And whether people
want to say they're spiritual or not, that's
a spiritual thing to do. And I just feel that
overall, there's certainly a lot less religion
in younger people that in older people and you
know there's less in my generation and my grandparents
generation. But i do think the possibility for.
For spirituality because we really can find one
that fits or craft something that works or combine
things together it's like there's there's no
law that you have to put your spirituality in
into some very. rigorous rule -bound structure,
although you can, and that works brilliantly
for some people. That, uh, Sebastian fellow reminds
me of Al Marri, who was this, uh, poet and a
literary genius who lived in Syria, who was vegan,
who wrote poems about his veganism. Interestingly
enough, he is Usually described as an atheist,
but he was not you know, he would sleep on his
prayer mat. He was a true believer. It's just
that he practiced in his own terms and I do find
that a lot of now among vegan. you know, people
who are religious and spiritual, they are heterodox
in their approach to religion and spirituality.
Yes. Well, that makes sense because we have to
be free thinkers or we wouldn't be vegan. It's
still very unusual. We're a small percentage
of the population. People still think we eat
funny. It's still hard for a lot of people to
celebrate holidays with their families so we're
kinda out there and so the idea that we have
that kind of character and then we're gonna walk
up to really any religion and say give me the
rules i wanna follow every single one of them
that's probably not gonna be the case with most
vegans. No indeed i want to get back for a second
on. the point about why aren't more religious
people vegan. Okay. Do you think there is a bias
among, uh, in the vegan movement, uh, an anti
-religion bias that stops us from talking about
veganism in religious terms to religious people?
So it's talking in their language, uh, because
we have this defeatist attitude, you know, um,
those religions or those religious people just
would not understand our way of life. Not only
that, but they are part of the problem. And so
why would I waste time talking about veganism
or convincing them to consider a vegan lifestyle?
That's not the movement that I'm seeing. And
again, I think it's generational because for
me, Well, when I became vegan, the American Vegan
Society magazine was called Ahimsa, coming from
the yogic term for nonviolence. Jay Dinshah,
the founder, the late founder, was very interested
in Gandhi and this whole idea of peace and Gandhi,
of course, being vegetarian. He wanted to be
vegan. Evidently, he had very messed up Stomach
and so his doctors, you know at that time things
were limited and they told him he had to have
goat's milk and It is said that It and he only
would drink the milk of his own goat that he
know that she's with the kid and everybody's
gonna be okay I mean it must have been very complicated
but at one point shortly before his death He
said he called having to eat this goats drink
this goat's milk the tragedy of my life. This
was after India split into India and Pakistan.
And for somebody that was so interested in peace
and harmony and oneness, and he had devoted his
life to freeing his country from colonial rule,
and then that happens, you would think that would
be the tragedy of his life. But he said it was
taking the milk from the goat. So there was this
very spiritual Emphasis in fact my own first
book compassion the ultimate ethic and exploration
of veganism which i think maybe the first book
on vegan philosophy and practice to come from
an actual publisher came out in nineteen eighty
five that was written. as a fellowship project
for my bachelor's degree in comparative religions.
If you hear funny little noises in the background,
this is my dog snoring. So we're all vegans here.
I think we can handle the dogs. It's very cute.
My apologies. So yeah, and so What i did when
i knew i had this fellowship and it was for foreign
study i had to leave north america to study anything
that had to do with my major so i went to the
uk to study vegans because at that time. There
are more vegans there and it was a smaller land
mass and i could just do it better but i was
looking at them in a religious spiritual perspective
that made all kinds of sense in fact it made
so much sense that my college gave me money.
to go do this when veganism was hardly known
in the world much much less in in america and
today my husband used that ordination that he
has to found with another interfaith minister
reverend sarah bowen and myself something called
the compassion consortium which is an interfaith
spiritual center for animal advocates so we're
interfaith which means anybody from any tradition
or none is welcome. And we're interspecies, which
means that we believe that animals have spiritual
lives. No, maybe not with sacraments and commandments
and things like that. But there is something
very etheric about them as well. And then we
are Inter spiritual meaning that we bring in
traditions from around the world for meditation
practices and so on and so forth so i'm part
of that i'm also part of the interface vegan
coalition which reaches out to all different
kinds of religions they have packets for broad
religious bodies and in some of the ones that
are more. Prevalent in north america like christian
denominations for instance they'll get them down
even to denominational kinds of of packets and
then there is the vegan spirituality which was.
Also a way to find begins to have spiritual lives
and want to have a spiritual lives and bring
them together and i was also lead producer of
the documentary a prayer for compassion. which
was produced in 2019. You can find it on Vimeo
and elsewhere. And that's about spirituality
and food choices. And again, to me, it made perfect
sense. So it was probably 2016 when the filmmaker,
Thomas Jackson, called into my at that time radio
show my main street vegan podcast started out
as internet radio as well as a podcast and we
can take callers and he called in and asked if
i would like to produce his documentary and you
know my first thought is i don't know how to
produce a documentary But then he said, it's
going to be about veganism and spirituality.
And it's like, yes, I will learn how to produce
a documentary because those are my two passions.
But but there is that stuff out there. There's
also a wonderful group in the UK called the Animal
Interfaith Alliance, where some very high level
people in established religious bodies gather
to try to change. some of the things that is
being done in the name of their religion or others.
So there are people who care. It's so interesting
that you seem to be seeing a lot of vegans who
aren't interested in spirituality, and I'm seeing
a lot who are. I don't know who's got the most
numbers, probably you, but we're certainly here.
If there's somebody listening to this who's like,
well, I'd like to be a spiritual vegan, but I
don't know any. Well, there are all these these
places you can look and find your people. I don't
know. I wonder if this has been studied. It's
just, you know, I guess my personal experience
and exchanges I've had and every time I produce
a podcast about focusing on religion, I get so
much. pushback and so many negative comments,
which I simply don't understand because I have
the same vision that aligns with, with yours,
Victoria. Well, I think a lot of people have
been religiously injured. No, they, they either
had a religion pushed on them that didn't make
any sense or if they were gay or in some other
way, knowing that who they were was something
that that particular religion was disregarding
even condemning you know that kind of stuff is
very difficult and we know there's been clergy
abuse of children and things like that so I understand
you know where some of it comes from and yet
when we think about how spirituality can be so
personal and you can have all the joys of it.
You know, it would be like saying, I hate music
if the only music I had ever heard was marching
bands. And I don't know anything about classic
rock or Mozart. All I know is marching bands
and I don't like it. And so I think this whole
realm of spirituality, it's so big. And the other
thing that it does for animal activists and animal
advocates is it can help us deal with how hard
it is. You know, just knowing what goes on, it
is very difficult. And so the idea that there
is something more, that there is a way to get
some kind of comfort so that we can just keep
going knowing what we do. And I know people who
are not interested in spirituality would probably
just say, well, what a lightweight you are, you
know, I just do it on my own. But I feel like
anybody who is aware of great suffering needs
some kind of help in dealing with that. And,
you know, maybe there is just great personal
strength that they can draw on. But I really
like the idea of spirituality. And then, you
know, I don't feel the need to turn to anything
damaging because I can turn to this idea that
I don't know anything about the great beyond
and anybody who says for absolute certain that
they do, I think is kind of full of themselves.
But I think we all have to create some sort of
livable vision for Getting through this life
and for me spiritual teachings are just they're
just Part of it. They're just so much a part
of it. I think about when I was researching compassion
the ultimate ethic in in England Scotland and
Ireland and there was one woman that I met and
she had a bed and breakfast in Northern Scotland
in Inverness. And she told me that she'd always
considered herself a devout Christian, a member
of the Church of Scotland. And then she had this
experience where she said, thou shalt not kill
rang through my ears for a fortnight. And I went
to this Church of Scotland clergy and he said
you know don't don't worry about don't worry
about animals you know don't worry about what
you eat it's like just you know get some rest
and you know you'll get over it basically but
but once she committed that she was going to
be vegan it stopped and she wasn't losing her
mind or anything but That was a spiritual experience
that made one person vegan. And she is one of
many thousands throughout history that something
in their soul pushed them, moved them in this
direction. And I think for people who are more
scientific and more, you know, they're engineers
and mathematicians and people like that, there
are spiritual traditions that are just made for
that kind of temperament. And I think of Vedanta,
Advaita Vedanta, the idea that you and the divine
are one and your job is to, you know, determine
that. There's a wonderful novel from the 1930s
by Somerset Mom, The Razor's Edge, which is based
on those teachings. And there was a great old
movie, if you like, old movies made from the
book. And so it's just like there really is something
for everybody if you want it and if you need
it. And to me. The power has been shown. I mean,
I think perhaps most recently in history is the
12 step programs, because before Bill Wilson
had a spiritual experience that got him to stop
drinking. alcoholics died or were locked up.
That was the only hope. You are going to die
or you're going to be locked up forever, throw
away the key. That's it. Because there was no
help and no hope. And then he had this literally
spiritual experience. He saw a light in his hospital
room and the desire to drink was taken away.
And other people you know it's not that simple
the desire isn't taken away but the ability to
show up a day at a time and not not give into
it is and that's a completely spiritual program
you know it can be. Any any you know that they
were back in the thirties saying you know god
of your understanding and they would say if you
can't do god then make the group your higher
power it just has to be something. that isn't
your own ego and you know there are thousands
of people walking around hundreds of thousands
who have gotten over all kinds of addiction because
of this spiritual program and it doesn't make
them religious fanatics doesn't make them pushy
people who are you know closed -minded and can't
stand people who are different from them it's
it's just another thing you know and it's sort
of like i think In the world of people who are
not interested in spirituality, there are those
who are wonderful, kind, giving, gracious, funny,
you love them to pieces. And then there are religious
people who are kind, funny, gracious, you love
them to pieces. And there are religious people
that you just want to, you know, push them and
their holy scripture out the door and close it,
lock it. And there are, you know, Non spiritual
people who are like that too. So I think we need
to just be open to what gives other people peace
and Accept that if you're not a believer Those
people at least have something that helps get
them through life. And if you are one to know
that we don't know everything. We don't know
how it all works. So, you know, God bless them
too, even if you don't want to say it too loud.
Yes, I, I was thinking about this conversation,
and I was wondering, how, how would you define
spirituality? And in the context of this discussion,
and I was thinking about, you know, many activists
being too close to the fire, too close to this
horrific thing that animal exploitation is and
spirituality could allow them to take some distance,
to have a sense of a bigger picture. And I do
believe that adopting that attitude would also
make them better. animal activists, just because,
you know, for one reason, they will be able to
sustain that activism for a longer time and not
be burnt out by their actions. Well, that's certainly
how I see it. And I know that everybody has to
follow their own path and follow their own light
and I guess to me, that's really what spirituality
is. Spirituality is acknowledging that somewhere
within me, there is this pure, perfect light.
And that's what I need to follow. And of course,
oftentimes I don't because I'm human and I mess
up, but to just know that that's there and that's
the essence. And I think too, sometimes like
there's that phrase, the world is too much with
us. We look at what we've got right here. And
it's this infinite amount of time. And I know
that When you're young it's supposed to seem
like forever because you wouldn't do all the
work that it took to establish yourself in you
know home and family and all that stuff even
if you're not trying to save the world you know
it's a big deal to make a life and get through
life. But as i look at it from my age now seventy
five. You know, this is a beautiful book by Joel
Goldsmith, a parenthesis in eternity, one of
my favorite book titles. But this really is a
parenthesis in eternity. And so the idea that
our lives only matter if we can Can change this
thing right now and I mean of course we all want
to change it right now good heavens I mean that
would just be the most amazing thing in the world
and yet we're in this movement and We don't know
historically Where we are in it so for example
if you were looking at slavery in the United
States And you were an abolitionist and you were
putting your whole life into getting rid of human
slavery in this country. What year is it? Is
it 1620? Is it 1750? Is it 1862? I mean we don't
know where we are is in the animal rights movement
and you know there's kind of backwards and forwards
and up and down and we think we're making a lot
of progress and then we have some backsliding
and which I guess happens in every kind of liberation
movement like this. And this may also be the
most revolutionary revolution that's ever taken
place on earth, because it's the only one that
has been for others who cannot participate. who
can't speak i mean you know we're talking about
slavery in america there is the underground railroad
there is harriet tubman and there are all these
people who were enslaved or had been enslaved
that were part of the cause and with the other
inhuman animals i mean they can be in sanctuaries
being ambassadors and participating in that way
but this is huge i mean what we're trying to
do it has to do. With people's diet and I mean
trying to get somebody to change what they eat
even if it's not like veganism Just getting somebody
to you know, not eat desserts or something. I
mean, it's like ah You know, this is just really
very very difficult We're also talking about
getting people to change their attitude and step
down from their super privileged position of
we are human we are above everybody and come
to more of a yeah we've got a big brain and an
opposing thumb but we're really an animal like
everybody else you know these are just huge things
that we're asking of people so when we look out
at our progress and get discouraged by how slow
it is and certainly it's As long as any animal
is suffering, the progress is too slow. But on
the other hand, we've got to give ourselves a
break to understand what a huge undertaking this
is. And maybe if we really saw how big it was,
we would be overjoyed at the progress we're making.
Absolutely. And beautifully said. I want to address
the the question of animal exploitation itself
in many religious traditions there is this idea
of evil do you believe that what we're fighting
is a form of that of of evil and do you even
believe in that concept of of evil maybe not
as a you know a real entity but as a as a force
of Darkness in this world. Well, there certainly
seems to be that a force of darkness in this
world and I'm always so surprised when people
go there and even outside the animal situation,
but You know where people just choose to steal
something from somebody. It's like What you know
why I mean, it's just it's absolutely fascinating
to me and So I I don't believe in evil as a force
I Grew up I was supposed to be Roman Catholic
But it never really resonated with me very much
and I had this nanny It was very eclectically
spiritual and she ended up in unity which is
a kind of progressive Christian denomination,
which was actually founded by a couple of very
strict vegetarians in the 1890s. Now they weren't
vegan because that concept just wasn't around
then, but they absolutely did not eat meat and
they didn't wear leather. They had a publishing
company and they printed their Bibles and all
their other books with this faux leather that
was available in the 1890s. It's like, who knew?
So, uh, and they recommended vegetarianism after
they died. And, you know, a son took over that
kind of fell away, but that influence, you know,
was, was part of my childhood. And now I have
gone so off on a story that I've forgotten what
we're talking about. Evil. Evil. Yeah. Evil.
Okay. So in in unity and in all the what they
called new thought traditions religious science
divine science even christian science to a degree
it's the idea there is like this is a unity thing
there is one power and one presence in all the
universe god the good omnipotent now that is
really hard to say and believe when you were
looking at an animal being abused or a child
being abused or something else happening that
just totally should not be happening. And so
it requires the idea that there's facts, there
are facts. And among the many facts of this world
is that things are happening and have happened
throughout history that were just wrong. That
if there is a god very much removed from god
Just just wrong and i think in our own lives
we can look at things that we did and i was like
oh my oh my goodness can't believe i did that
and we learn and we change and you know go on
and i think that that's what we're supposed to
do is a society to one of my early spiritual
teachers used to talk about the upward progression
of the universe. We're supposed to be part of
this upward progression. And I think that that's
what we're doing in the animal rights movement.
So whether evil is a force, a satanic kind of
force, I guess I would say no, because when I
think of a force, I think of a creative power.
And I don't see evil creating life. But I do
see things that are really bad and you can call
it evil or you can call it wrong or sick or Misguided
or whatever kind of word you want to give to
it, but I do think it's our responsibility anytime
we can Step in for someone who's powerless and
certainly that's the case for animals in agriculture
and experimentation and in so many other places
where they should not be. I don't know about
your position on the supernatural and its manifestations,
for instance, you know, angels, ghosts and all
of that. But that is a question I raised to Akiva
Gersh, also known as the vegan rabbi. I asked
him, you know, point blank, where is God right
now? Why is he not stopping this animal exploitation
business? Why is he not intervening? What do
you make of that question? Well, I think that
there are two ways to believe in the traditional
Judeo -Christian kind of God, and one is to believe
that He and I'll just say he because we're going
to be that traditional we may as well keep the
pronoun. It can't can be changed or moved to
come in and do something you know stop something
and there's another view I think it's called
deism that there is a God who created everything
and set it into motion and gave humans free will.
And we're supposed to be taking care of this
stuff and. I do believe that sometimes. There
are. Remarkable things that happen and the timing
like even in my own life I was. I got into this
Peter thing. Saw a bunch of video of animals
abused. But I'd already been vegan for over 30
years. I mean, I'd seen footage like that forever.
It wasn't like it was new, but my heart was extra
open that night. And so going home in the subway,
I was kind of talking to God because I'm comfortable
with the G word and like, well, why can't I just
give them a hundred thousand dollars? And the
response was, well, here's what you can do. And
it was literally inspiration. Your next book
needs to be Main Street Vegan. It needs to have
40 short chapters because people don't have long
attention spans. It needs to have a recipe at
the end of each chapter because people really
like recipes and it needs to be geared to that
young woman that you were in Wheaton, Illinois
in 1983 when you went from vegetarian to vegan.
And that was so clear. It was almost like I just
take notes like okay check got that got that
and so i told my agent i wrote a proposal we
got a really good publisher torture penguin.
But then the first time i talk to my editor she
said we're so happy to have you we don't have
a book on veganism yet but then she said we hate
main street. And i knew that was my title and
i couldn't very well say to her but that has
to be the title cuz. God gave it to me. So it
was just like, OK, they bought it. You know,
I'm going to have to come up with another title.
And I was trying and I was trying to write the
book and come up with a title and nothing sounded
good. And so my husband and I are walking up
Broadway after a movie and there is Michael Moore
and he had liked another book that I'd written.
So I gave my card to this woman who was with
him. He was talking to some fans and we went
on Broadway and then I hear Victoria. It's Michael
Moore. And we started talking. And he said, we
need to talk about food. I'll call you. Well,
miraculously, he did. And one night we're talking
about food. And I told him this book I'm writing
is supposed to be called Main Street Vegan. Publisher
doesn't like that. He said, they're wrong. Everybody
wants to be Main Street. Let me talk to them.
So I had this three -way call with an Academy
Award winner, my editor and me. He convinced
her. She convinced the higher ups. I got my title.
And as soon as she called me and said, OK, the
book will be called Main Street Vegan, I'm getting
all these like bubbles like, oh, there should
be a Main Street Vegan podcast. And in those
days, there were only four vegan podcasts. I
was number five. So the idea that was kind of
revolutionary. There needs to be Main Street
Vegan Productions. There needs to be a Main Street
Vegan Academy training and certifying vegan lifestyle
coaches and educators. And it's like, yeah. And
all that has happened. And it wouldn't have happened
if we hadn't run into Michael Moore on Broadway.
I mean, huh? Now, that's not like parting the
Red Sea, but I consider it a vegan miracle. And
I think it's important to look for them because
I believe this is the time in history when it's
time for the animals. I've seen a lot of liberation
in my life. I've seen a lot of people, women
and minorities of various kinds. Not get to perfection
not get to the ultimate where it ought to be
but make tremendous tremendous strides that were
unbelievable would just just wouldn't have believed
it like when I was a kid and so I think so much
can happen for animals and if there is something
like divine appointment and serendipity and a
little bit of extra help from what some people
would call the spirit world. I'll take it. I'll
take whatever I can get to save these animals.
I love those stories. By the way, I don't know
if it happens to you, but many times when I talk
to atheists who just hate the idea of God, don't
talk to me about religion. They know you're into
spirituality, and so they will at some point
whisper, hey, I have a story. I was visited by
a ghost once. I'm telling you this, but take
it with a grain of salt. And I had this dream,
which was a prophetic dream. And so, yeah, it's
always funny when that happens. I think even
the scientists that study the brain they've found
some section that, you know, I don't know if
they call it the God spot or something, that
it's, we're wired to be spiritual. Now does that
absolutely mean, yes, there is some, you know,
God, Brahman, Ahura Mazda? I don't know, but
I know we're wired for it. And so it kind of
seems like it's not it's not that far off and
you know in a way i kind of admire people who
can get through life and stay sane and remain
effective and not believe in anything because
i couldn't i mean life can get really really
hard sometimes and i think this is why So often
people who have not been close to any kind of
religion or anything You know, they have a funeral
they have you know there's just When you're looking
at coming to earth and leaving earth It all gets
very kind of hmm Is this parenthesis all there
is and one thing for me I was kind of a weird
little kid. I always knew I was somewhere before
this so I would hear adults talk about life after
death. And I would be thinking what's the big
deal I mean of course there's life after death
because I was just there and. Then I've heard
this story. It's probably an urban myth, but
it's a good story of the little boy who goes
into his baby sister's room and says, Tell me
about God I'm beginning to forget. And I think
maybe that happens. It's not. It's more common
than than you think that you might think. There
is a whole subreddit online of parents. And guardians
you know freaking out from interactions with
children who talk about their past life who described
things in details who often. Share that they
have been the relative of the guardian or the
parent you know there I was your aunt you don't
remember me or I was your father weird weird
interactions and. It comes from families from
everywhere in the world, from every religion.
For me, reincarnation is such a compelling concept.
I really don't know why people take it as a joke
or as a non -serious idea. I don't know if it
was Thoreau, but some one of those folks said,
I don't think it is any more remarkable to be
born twice than it is to be born once. So, and
again, I was raised with it, you know, this incredible
nanny, you know, brought me up with reincarnation,
which, you know, it makes more sense. You know,
I think we're always just trying to understand
probably the inexplicable, but it makes more
sense than one and done. And I may not know exactly
how it works or the ins and outs or, you know,
where are you in between or how long are you
there? And, you know, I don't know. But it's
just it's my worldview. It's how I see things.
When I was not quite three, because we moved
on my third birthday. So I know it wasn't I wasn't
three. And my nanny took me out at night. And
it was late enough that it was completely dark
and there were lots of stars in the sky. And
I'm in my stroller looking up at the stars and
thinking, okay, I mean, that's home. I'm here.
I'm doing this thing. It's okay. But it is not
home. And I remember that so clearly, which is,
I think when I decided, okay, I'm going to do
this, I'm going to stick this thing out. And
So, you know, maybe some people are just a little
bit more wired that way from an early age. I
know it helps me. It helps me be a better person.
It helps me get through things that are difficult.
And it helps me be a better animal advocate.
You know, I'll stand with anybody who's an animal
advocate, whether they have that piece going
or not. Beautiful. Let me end this conversation
with this question then. You mentioned how you
were inspired, you know, the idea of the book
was an inspiration. And this isn't old ancient
idea you know of the muse or the diamond I think
from what's the name of that I should not forget
his name the philosopher who Socrates yes he
had that daemon or demon however you want to
pronounce it and and he was the one you know
giving him inspiration for his philosophy How
do we summon that spirit? How do we bring up
those new and innovative and groundbreaking ideas?
Is there even a way? Is it out of our control?
And if there is, what are your thoughts on it?
Okay. Well, I don't think you can order it up.
I'll have a veggie burger and a salad, but I
think you can create the place where it might
come. So for example when my daughter and her
husband bought their condo in New York City and
it had a yard, nobody has a yard in Manhattan,
so they were really looking for the kinds of
plants they could plant that would attract bees.
And I think that's what we need to do. We need
to live a kind of life that attracts inspiration.
So there are all different ways to live a spiritual
life. It's not, you know, one size fits all.
But generally speaking, in many traditions, some
of the things that come across are that you get
up early. Like in yoga, for example, there's
this time of day called Brahma Mahurta, which
is I think technically it's like two hours and
40 minutes before sunrise. But even just six
o 'clock you know you get up when it's quiet
and when it's just easier to access you know
that kind of peace and so you meditate and maybe
you journal journaling is a great way to bring
about inspiration because you're just writing
and writing and writing and then all of a sudden
you write something like what did i say that
and it's like well maybe it was me and maybe
it wasn't but it's good i'm gonna follow with
that thing And, you know, being with people who
are uplifting, being in nature, just being an
animal activist and yoga parlance is karma yoga,
that selfless service that's doing something
for someone with no thought of any benefit to
yourself. That's, you know, that's a spiritual
practice. And I think the more of that that we
can incorporate into our lives, the more effective
we'll be and also happier and more content. Because
the truth is a lot of people, even ethical vegans,
even ethical vegans who have done animal activism,
we lose them. And we know our recidivism rate
is, gosh, you know, worse than a lot of shrinking
religions that will go unnamed. And so we need
to nourish our fellow animal advocates. And one
way we can do that is by being at peace ourselves,
being a peaceful presence. And if anybody's interested,
you know, sometimes people will say like, oh,
gosh, you seem so peaceful. What do you do? And
it's like, well, you caught me on a good day,
but here's what I do so that I have the good
days. Beautifully said, Victoria, did you want
to add something before we end this recording?
Well, I'm just so happy that you have this podcast.
And I love the idea that veganism, if we're going
to save all the animals, we need all the people.
So that means People who have no interest in
spirituality and people who are just regular
conventional Whatever you grew up as kind of
religious who knows people who are really into
meditation and enlightenment and all we need
the entire spectrum and so to address part of
that spectrum is to to broaden it mean the way
I envision the world is that whether it's a Baptist
funeral or a Hindu wedding or whatever it is,
it's going to be vegan because that's what people
of faith do. And because it's such a good thing
to do, everybody's going to pick up on it. And
then we're going to have a vegan world. So that's
my vision. And I think that your podcast and
all that you do in the world is helping us get
there. So thank you. Thank you to you, Victoria,
for all the great work you have done throughout
the years. I would not have been here if it wasn't
for you. I'm sure of that. So, yeah, like the
saying goes, you know, standing on the shoulders
of giants. So thank you so much, Victoria. Thank
you for having answered my questions and thank
you for your voice. My pleasure. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.