WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.580 Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan 00:00:02.580 --> 00:00:06.059 and today we compare two different approaches 00:00:06.059 --> 00:00:09.679 to advancing the environmental cause from two 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:13.720 vegan giants, Jane Goodall and David Attenborough. 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:17.519 Both have released documentaries focused on the 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:21.239 climate crisis, animal welfare, and their personal 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:25.120 journeys into activism. Jane Goodall's documentary, 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.640 The Hope, is available on YouTube. David Attenborough's 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.020 A Life on Our Planet is on Netflix. You'll find 00:00:33.020 --> 00:00:36.600 the links in the episode notes. To discuss this 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.799 topic, I'm joined by the amazing Alex Ventimiglia 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.960 -Sanchez, professor in the Department of English 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:45.659 and Film Studies at the University of Alberta. 00:00:45.950 --> 00:00:49.990 We talked about the stereotype of the ecological 00:00:49.990 --> 00:00:54.490 Indian, the apocalyptic predictions environmentalists 00:00:54.490 --> 00:00:57.990 love to make, the collapse of humanity's birth 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:01.390 rates, the role of plant -based diets and animal 00:01:01.390 --> 00:01:04.469 welfare in the environmental cause, and much 00:01:04.469 --> 00:01:07.730 more. It was a real pleasure talking with Alex. 00:01:08.430 --> 00:01:11.109 Enjoy the episode, and don't forget to follow 00:01:11.109 --> 00:01:15.099 the show for more like this. Also, share the 00:01:15.099 --> 00:01:17.980 joy of this episode with the vegans you know. 00:01:18.579 --> 00:01:21.140 By the way, if you missed it, go check out last 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:24.760 week's Wednesday episode. The Vegan Report is 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:28.099 now releasing episodes every Wednesday on the 00:01:28.099 --> 00:01:44.299 science of activism. I don't usually watch documentaries. 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:49.120 I avoid them. I feel like they are not in depth 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:53.579 enough and they're more like pieces of propaganda, 00:01:53.579 --> 00:01:58.659 to be honest, than anything else. But for, you 00:01:58.659 --> 00:02:02.060 know, to record this episode, I went and watched 00:02:02.060 --> 00:02:05.700 the two documentaries and I'm looking forward 00:02:05.700 --> 00:02:09.060 to our conversation. Yeah. Well, first off, thank 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:12.300 you for having me back. I had a really good time 00:02:12.300 --> 00:02:17.780 last time, and I look forward to this episode. 00:02:18.259 --> 00:02:21.159 The one thing, I know where you're coming from. 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.719 For me, documentaries are essentially my job 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:28.300 now, in the sense that studying them is what 00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:30.280 my dissertation is about. That's what my research 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:35.219 is about. And so I've developed a love -hate 00:02:35.219 --> 00:02:38.300 relationship with these films. And that wasn't 00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:42.069 there before. I started watching them. or I started 00:02:42.069 --> 00:02:44.830 researching them because I grew up watching documentaries 00:02:44.830 --> 00:02:47.669 or what a lot of people call documentaries. I 00:02:47.669 --> 00:02:51.370 think we're going to talk about that today because 00:02:51.370 --> 00:02:58.090 what makes a documentary and what makes it a 00:02:58.090 --> 00:03:00.729 piece of propaganda, as you said, as opposed 00:03:00.729 --> 00:03:03.330 to something else and what that something else 00:03:03.330 --> 00:03:07.669 then becomes is relevant to any discussion of 00:03:07.669 --> 00:03:11.879 people like David Attenborough and more recently 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:15.180 Jane Goodall as she began to appear in more of 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:17.900 these films. But yeah, thank you for having me 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:20.900 back and I look forward to our discussion. Of 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:25.680 course, amazing. I wanted to start with highlighting 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:31.879 how Jane Goodall and David Attenborough had a 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.620 friendship. I think a decade long friendship. 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:40.469 They also collaborated. on lots of conservation 00:03:40.469 --> 00:03:45.270 projects. And I thought it was worth mentioning. 00:03:46.469 --> 00:03:48.409 They're also both of them, you know, British 00:03:48.409 --> 00:03:55.789 of a certain age, and activists in that, you 00:03:55.789 --> 00:03:58.409 know, in the last stages of their life, which 00:03:58.409 --> 00:04:03.969 is also fascinating. I'm sure you know, lots 00:04:03.969 --> 00:04:09.610 of retired people, they don't It's not often 00:04:09.610 --> 00:04:15.909 that you see someone in their 80s or 90s displaying 00:04:15.909 --> 00:04:19.589 that level of energy and passion and conviction 00:04:19.589 --> 00:04:26.110 and speaking up for a cause they hold dear. So 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:30.589 yeah, fascinating resemblance between the two. 00:04:31.189 --> 00:04:33.490 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think one of the first 00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:35.410 things that we need to establish, and I think 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:38.589 the way in which you're opening your that this 00:04:38.589 --> 00:04:41.370 episode is a good way to establish that, is that 00:04:41.370 --> 00:04:48.829 we need to divorce or separate our understanding 00:04:48.829 --> 00:04:54.189 of Atomorrow and Goodell as people, right? And 00:04:54.189 --> 00:04:57.470 what the films that they partake in, or they 00:04:57.470 --> 00:05:02.470 partook in now, past tense, is and what they 00:05:02.470 --> 00:05:06.329 actually accomplish, right? Because I think it's 00:05:06.329 --> 00:05:10.500 undeniable that both Goodall and Adam Burrow 00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:13.360 had always the best intentions in mind, right? 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:19.899 Their activism is truly admirable, right? You 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:24.560 look at the work that both of them undertook 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.439 over the course of their lives and when it started, 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:29.980 right? Particularly when it started because as 00:05:29.980 --> 00:05:32.959 you mentioned, right? So both of them are British 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.779 and that's important already because Britain 00:05:37.569 --> 00:05:41.430 has traditionally understood itself when it comes 00:05:41.430 --> 00:05:47.050 to issues related to ecology or even animals. 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:51.810 Britain has understood itself as a nation of 00:05:51.810 --> 00:05:55.470 animal lovers. This was even something that they 00:05:55.470 --> 00:05:57.509 talked about openly during World War II, for 00:05:57.509 --> 00:06:03.230 example. And so they come from this one particular 00:06:03.230 --> 00:06:06.389 nation that has always had a passion for for 00:06:06.389 --> 00:06:09.970 issues related to animals and in nature. And 00:06:09.970 --> 00:06:12.389 it goes back way before that. I mean, Darwin 00:06:12.389 --> 00:06:16.930 is British. Sir Richard Owen is also British, 00:06:17.410 --> 00:06:21.569 another famous paleontologist. Excuse me. So 00:06:21.569 --> 00:06:23.850 yeah, Britain has this long -standing fascination 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:27.790 with the natural world, which has its problematic 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:31.389 roots. Because it all goes back to to imperialism 00:06:31.389 --> 00:06:33.490 and colonialism right they start like discovering 00:06:33.490 --> 00:06:36.490 all these quote unquote exotic places and they're 00:06:36.490 --> 00:06:38.889 fascinated by the wildlife in those places right 00:06:38.889 --> 00:06:41.850 so i think that's that's part of the origin of 00:06:41.850 --> 00:06:43.870 of of this fascination with the natural world 00:06:43.870 --> 00:06:46.410 but so they both come from that history right 00:06:46.410 --> 00:06:49.389 and and they come from a particular time like 00:06:49.389 --> 00:06:51.730 you were saying which is there you know nowadays 00:06:51.730 --> 00:06:54.870 we would say they're both boomers right they're 00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:57.509 from the baby boomer generation but that's important 00:06:57.509 --> 00:07:01.250 too because As David Attenborough talks about 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:06.149 in his what I would consider his first true documentary, 00:07:06.310 --> 00:07:08.670 which is a biopic, David Attenborough, A Life 00:07:08.670 --> 00:07:11.870 on Our Planet, he mentions that the reason why 00:07:11.870 --> 00:07:15.209 he was able to have the career he had was because 00:07:15.209 --> 00:07:18.209 his coming of age and his becoming a television 00:07:18.209 --> 00:07:22.129 figure, a television personality coincided with 00:07:22.129 --> 00:07:26.910 the invention of commercial air travel. So a 00:07:26.910 --> 00:07:29.600 lot of things kind of converge and come together 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.060 that allowed them to have the careers that they 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:35.560 had. Jane Goodall had a similar experience, right? 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:39.199 It is only at that point in time that she joins 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:44.300 that PhD program that women were allowed and 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:47.879 encouraged to become researchers, right? And 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:49.939 it was only at that time that they were able 00:07:49.939 --> 00:07:53.379 to travel Abroad and even then right with an 00:07:53.379 --> 00:07:55.500 asterisk there because yes, you may know she 00:07:55.500 --> 00:07:57.620 had to go with her mom, right? She had to be 00:07:57.620 --> 00:08:00.079 chaperoned because otherwise it would have been 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.920 seen as inappropriate for a British woman to 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:07.259 go by herself to the African wilderness, right? 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:12.839 So so yeah, they're they're they're lives And 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:17.730 and the work that they have done I wouldn't say 00:08:17.730 --> 00:08:21.910 it's coincidental, but it becomes possible because 00:08:21.910 --> 00:08:24.649 of a number of historical developments that I 00:08:24.649 --> 00:08:26.930 think also kind of inform the way they see things. 00:08:27.329 --> 00:08:31.670 They inform the way in which they began their 00:08:31.670 --> 00:08:34.429 careers and the transformations that they undertook 00:08:34.429 --> 00:08:38.629 as their careers unfolded. About the comment 00:08:38.629 --> 00:08:44.230 on how British people are animal lovers. It's 00:08:44.230 --> 00:08:48.830 funny, I had the conversation recently with a 00:08:48.830 --> 00:08:52.190 foundation called the Battersea Foundation, and 00:08:52.190 --> 00:08:56.789 they're based in the UK. And they have been fighting 00:08:56.789 --> 00:09:03.690 for animal welfare for 160 years, 160 years. 00:09:04.529 --> 00:09:08.350 And I thought about that number and it down on 00:09:08.350 --> 00:09:12.220 me that it their organization was older than 00:09:12.220 --> 00:09:16.379 Canada itself. That's one interesting way to 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:18.960 think about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. 00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:22.879 No, like I said, it's a historical phenomenon. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.679 I think, like I said, it has its roots in certain 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:30.840 more problematic and darker aspects of British 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.620 history. But the truth of the matter is that 00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:36.980 some good has come of it. I think, for instance, 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.539 the the beginning of the conservation movement 00:09:40.539 --> 00:09:45.840 can be thought of as an offshoot of the examples 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.059 to collect specimens, which is how it all began. 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:55.460 And yeah, and later on, Adam Borough's career 00:09:55.460 --> 00:10:00.379 is because Adam Borough is the more, let's say, 00:10:01.719 --> 00:10:05.539 Mediatic figure right he is the one who whose 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:09.759 career largely revolved around the media and 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:17.139 so um hit that that. His the beginning of his 00:10:17.139 --> 00:10:21.149 career right is. permitted by the invention, 00:10:21.190 --> 00:10:23.230 like I said, of air travel. But even before that, 00:10:23.570 --> 00:10:26.389 he starts his career in broadcasting because 00:10:26.389 --> 00:10:29.250 suddenly Britain has a television system, right? 00:10:29.250 --> 00:10:32.049 Like a public television system, right? And they're 00:10:32.049 --> 00:10:34.570 trying to come up with programming that people 00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:38.309 will like, right? And so as a nation of animal 00:10:38.309 --> 00:10:41.549 lovers, they think, well, why not shows about 00:10:41.549 --> 00:10:44.250 animals, right? And Adam Borough's first shows 00:10:44.250 --> 00:10:48.200 were actually him. bringing animals into television 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.899 studios, right? Kind of like what you see nowadays 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.120 with on late night shows like Conan O 'Brien's 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.840 or Stephen Colbert's, right? They bring experts 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:03.940 to the show with animals and they talk about 00:11:03.940 --> 00:11:06.860 these animals, right? And I think, I don't know 00:11:06.860 --> 00:11:08.779 if you've ever talked about this on your podcast, 00:11:08.860 --> 00:11:13.299 but there is a serious issue there, right? In 00:11:13.299 --> 00:11:15.639 fact, I know you don't like documentaries, but 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:20.379 there is a documentary. Boy, I'm going to look 00:11:20.379 --> 00:11:22.019 it up in a second, but there's a documentary 00:11:22.019 --> 00:11:25.100 that talks about this industry, the industry 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:29.120 of people or that revolves and supports people 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:35.000 who are promoted as animal experts and they go 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:36.860 on television and they bring these animals and 00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:39.720 they talk about them and they talk about them 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.720 as you know, like ambassadors. They promote these 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:45.940 animals as ambassadors for their species and 00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:47.899 how, you know, they do this to promote conservation 00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:51.259 and such. But in reality, there's an entire industry 00:11:51.259 --> 00:11:55.279 that supplies them with animals, right? And that's 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.059 still happening today. So that's actually how 00:11:57.059 --> 00:11:59.940 Adam Laura's career begins, right? And I think 00:11:59.940 --> 00:12:03.500 it's telling that that sort of stuff is something 00:12:03.500 --> 00:12:05.940 that he walked away from early on, right? That 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:10.559 he decided not to bring the animal to the studio, 00:12:10.700 --> 00:12:14.259 but rather to take the studio and the crew, the 00:12:14.259 --> 00:12:17.320 camera crew and everyone else out into the wilderness, 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:22.120 right? Which is, I think, a less problematic 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:25.740 practice because it doesn't require you to bring 00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:30.039 an animal that's been essentially kidnapped or 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:34.279 else bred in captivity to a studio where it feels... 00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:36.710 absolutely out of place and terrorized. And you 00:12:36.710 --> 00:12:39.509 see it a lot in these shows today. They bring 00:12:39.509 --> 00:12:42.830 like a leopard cub, for example. And you can 00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:45.169 see the fear in their eyes. They're not meant 00:12:45.169 --> 00:12:47.629 to be in there. But that's actually how Adam 00:12:47.629 --> 00:12:50.669 Burrow's career began. Goodell never did that 00:12:50.669 --> 00:12:54.750 because she became a celebrity later on. And 00:12:54.750 --> 00:12:57.350 so it was only after her actual scientific work 00:12:57.350 --> 00:13:01.450 that she began to appear in nature documentaries. 00:13:01.769 --> 00:13:04.840 So she never engaged in anything like that. But 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.919 but it's funny to think that that um, but yeah, 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.500 like it was that demand for for images of animals 00:13:11.500 --> 00:13:14.259 that that catapulted Adam Borrow into like a 00:13:14.259 --> 00:13:17.299 career in broadcasting. And that it actually 00:13:17.299 --> 00:13:19.720 began in a way that today we would find appalling 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:22.200 as people who care for the welfare of animals. 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.379 Let's spend a moment to talk about the platforms 00:13:26.379 --> 00:13:31.500 where we can find those documentaries. So right 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:35.580 now the David Adam Borrow documentaries on Netflix. 00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:40.159 The Jane Goodall documentary was on Disney Plus, 00:13:40.419 --> 00:13:44.720 but it is available for free on YouTube. I think 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:47.879 they did that. The National Geographic YouTube 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:53.860 channel did that to mark her passing. So is there 00:13:53.860 --> 00:14:00.460 any pertinent information to grasp from that 00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:04.210 choice of platforms? Well, there's lots and again, 00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:08.009 I think we have to make a distinction here because 00:14:08.009 --> 00:14:11.450 Excuse me because they have significantly different 00:14:11.450 --> 00:14:15.690 careers when it comes to their appearances in 00:14:15.690 --> 00:14:24.289 the media, right Jane Goodall Only really became 00:14:24.289 --> 00:14:27.769 a media personality towards the tail end of her 00:14:27.769 --> 00:14:31.470 scientific career, right? And most of those shows 00:14:31.470 --> 00:14:36.409 in which she appeared were not necessarily about 00:14:36.409 --> 00:14:40.129 her going to these places where she had worked 00:14:40.129 --> 00:14:43.230 with chimpanzees, although there are a few, quite 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:48.669 a few shows that or programs or else feature 00:14:48.669 --> 00:14:54.870 length documentaries that do show her in the, 00:14:55.049 --> 00:14:57.669 in Gombe. for example, with the chimps that she 00:14:57.669 --> 00:15:02.450 actually studied or else traveling around promoting 00:15:02.450 --> 00:15:05.409 conservation, which is what you see in Jane Goodall, 00:15:05.470 --> 00:15:08.809 The Hope. They talk about her work as an activist 00:15:08.809 --> 00:15:11.490 rather than as a scientist. And so we see her 00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:14.409 traveling from place to place promoting these 00:15:14.409 --> 00:15:20.450 causes. That's essentially the role that she 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:25.429 has performed. whenever she's being on television 00:15:25.429 --> 00:15:28.450 or on documentaries. And so her platforms have 00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:33.070 been different. Historically, these programs 00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:38.529 have been produced largely for television. You 00:15:38.529 --> 00:15:41.210 don't really see them at the movies. Occasionally, 00:15:41.330 --> 00:15:44.929 you do. For example, Jane Goodall, The Hope did 00:15:44.929 --> 00:15:47.929 screen at a number of documentary festivals or 00:15:47.929 --> 00:15:50.629 film festivals. But for the most part, she's 00:15:50.629 --> 00:15:54.519 a television personality. And that's true also 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.500 for Adam Borough, but in a significantly different 00:15:57.500 --> 00:15:59.600 way. So, and the reason why I'm talking, I'm 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.399 going to get to the point of Netflix and Disney 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:03.220 Plus, but I think it's important to start with 00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:06.700 a history of their media appearance, especially 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:10.080 with Adam Borough, because even though there 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:12.240 are a number of issues with them being on Disney 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:18.860 and particularly on Netflix, I think there is 00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:23.240 a significant silver lining and then being on 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.940 those platforms. So let me go back to Adam Borough's 00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:30.679 career. So like I said, it starts with the establishment 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:37.299 of a public broadcasting system in Britain, which 00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:42.759 later becomes the BBC. And so the BBC and David 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:47.039 Adam Borough have a long -standing relationship. 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:52.720 I believe over six decades, they worked together. 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:59.779 In many ways, David Attenborough had a sort of 00:16:59.779 --> 00:17:03.320 exclusivity deal with the BBC for that period 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.400 of time in that he would occasionally appear 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.099 in other productions. He's been featured in American 00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:11.980 productions, for instance, as voiceover. But 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:17.140 the bulk of his work was produced by the BBC, 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.900 particularly what later became the BBC's natural 00:17:20.900 --> 00:17:24.059 history unit. So the BBC, because of this demand 00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:27.319 for images of animals and exotic landscapes and 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:31.099 all that, they actually create their own secondary 00:17:31.099 --> 00:17:34.119 studio entirely dedicated to what they call natural 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.099 history programming. And David Attenborough is 00:17:37.099 --> 00:17:40.380 the flagship. He is front and center whenever 00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.819 there is a significant production. Most of these, 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.539 again, are initially for television. But in the 00:17:46.539 --> 00:17:49.960 90s and early 2000s, there was a shift. Because 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.559 suddenly, and I think part of my research, one 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:56.259 of the arguments that I'm making, is that this 00:17:56.259 --> 00:17:59.420 shift is motivated by a sudden interest in the 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:02.559 environment. that comes about not just in Britain 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.680 anymore, but also in the United States and around 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.279 the world. And that this interest comes about 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.619 because there is this sudden discourse of climate 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:12.140 change, right? We're talking about climate change 00:18:12.140 --> 00:18:14.660 and we're talking about how the world is changing, 00:18:14.660 --> 00:18:16.980 right? And all of these places are going away. 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.160 Later we start talking about mass extinction, 00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:21.779 which is what I'm most interested in. But so 00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:25.039 suddenly there's this huge demand for natural 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.339 history programming. or wildlife films, as some 00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:32.700 scholars, myself included, call them. These are 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:35.359 not, I would argue, these are not documentaries. 00:18:36.099 --> 00:18:39.900 I would argue that they are constructs. These 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:44.039 are films in which David Attenborough, by his 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:50.119 own admittance, he would go out and try to film 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:53.980 as much behavior as possible, and then stitch 00:18:53.980 --> 00:18:57.799 that behavior into a story. So they would, for 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.440 example, record a number of cheetahs or a number 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.259 of lions doing different things, hunting, sleeping, 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.079 whatever, usually not the same individual because 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.480 tracking these animals is hard. And so they would 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:13.200 record as much behavior as possible and then 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.500 stitch that together into a story about one particular 00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:19.859 cheetah or one particular pride of lions. But 00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:22.019 in reality, what you're watching is a number 00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:24.759 of different individual animals. performing behaviors 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:28.559 that are proper to the species. And so you can't 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.000 really say that these are documentaries, first 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.940 off, because the narratives are entirely fictional. 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.019 The stories did not unfold as you see them on 00:19:39.019 --> 00:19:45.220 TV or later on, on IMAX, for example, when Planet 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:47.940 Earth comes about, for instance. Planet Earth 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:52.309 definitely screened in theaters, especially IMAX 00:19:52.309 --> 00:19:54.970 theaters. So it was not just television anymore. 00:19:55.190 --> 00:19:57.789 This was proper cinema, so to speak. But at the 00:19:57.789 --> 00:20:00.529 same time, we can't really call them documentaries. 00:20:01.029 --> 00:20:05.750 And there is a reason for this. So even though 00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:10.109 Attenborough has always promoted conservation, 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:18.029 the Natural History Unit at the BBC And there 00:20:18.029 --> 00:20:21.329 are a number of records in which producers explicitly 00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:25.589 say this, right? They essentially forbade him 00:20:25.589 --> 00:20:28.789 from getting political. And what that meant was 00:20:28.789 --> 00:20:31.829 that he could talk about how these are animals 00:20:31.829 --> 00:20:36.349 that are endangered. He could mention that saving 00:20:36.349 --> 00:20:39.650 them was important, but he could not go into 00:20:39.650 --> 00:20:42.710 any sort of detail as to how this could happen. 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:46.339 Right. So nothing about legislation. Right. Nothing 00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:50.180 about what practices people could engage in. 00:20:50.180 --> 00:20:54.119 Right. And nothing that seemed to doom and gloom, 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:56.240 as they called it. Right. That phrase actually 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.359 comes from a producer in the natural history 00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:01.299 unit who told him nothing doom and gloom, please. 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:05.119 Essentially. Right. So so David Attenborough 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.839 and his and all of his films have historically 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.119 been apolitical in the sense that they don't 00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:14.750 tackle any of these serious political questions 00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:17.029 that come about when you talk about conservation 00:21:17.029 --> 00:21:21.069 or animal welfare. None of that is visible in 00:21:21.069 --> 00:21:23.549 planet Earth, for example. They don't talk about 00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:26.730 what's actually causing polar bears to go extinct. 00:21:26.970 --> 00:21:29.609 They say it's climate change, but how do we fix 00:21:29.609 --> 00:21:30.990 climate change? Well, we're not going to talk 00:21:30.990 --> 00:21:33.130 about that because people don't want to talk 00:21:33.130 --> 00:21:34.670 about that. People just want to look at pretty 00:21:34.670 --> 00:21:39.019 pictures of polar bears. So the reason why I 00:21:39.019 --> 00:21:42.119 don't call them documentaries. And most documentary 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.940 scholars also feel uncomfortable referring to 00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:47.900 these films as documentaries because, well, they're 00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:50.819 not political, they're not historical, and they're 00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:56.779 mostly fictional. So that's a long preamble to 00:21:56.779 --> 00:22:02.880 what happens with a life on our planet and David 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.420 Attenborough, a life on our planet. So those 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:07.279 are two different things. So a life on our planet. 00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:12.210 is a wildlife film series, right? I think it's 00:22:12.210 --> 00:22:16.589 a five -part series. And that was just like your 00:22:16.589 --> 00:22:18.970 typical wildlife film, right? Like Planet Earth. 00:22:19.369 --> 00:22:22.910 So it's just nice pictures of beautiful landscapes, 00:22:23.029 --> 00:22:25.809 usually about a particular species. And again, 00:22:25.869 --> 00:22:28.829 right? It's usually not one individual animal 00:22:28.829 --> 00:22:30.750 that they're filming. It's a number of individuals. 00:22:30.769 --> 00:22:33.069 And they just turn that into a story about one 00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:35.329 individual. So again, not a documentary. But 00:22:35.329 --> 00:22:38.900 that is accompanied or that is released hand 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:41.779 in hand with David Attenborough, A Life on Our 00:22:41.779 --> 00:22:46.519 Planet, which is a standalone documentary. Now, 00:22:46.660 --> 00:22:51.099 this is significant because one of the reasons 00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:56.099 why David Attenborough steps away from the BBC 00:22:56.099 --> 00:23:00.059 and the natural history unit at the BBC and goes 00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:03.220 to work with Netflix for the very first time, 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:07.839 right? is that Netflix gave him essentially the 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.839 green light to talk about these more political 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.900 issues, right? So whereas the BBC was like, still 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:15.940 Adam and today, I think they're changing, slowly 00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:17.799 changing, slowly becoming more political, right? 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.000 But the reason why Adam steps away from that 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.619 and he goes on to make a life on our planet and 00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:29.339 then his biopic is because Netflix allowed him 00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:33.690 to talk about the more serious issues. And Adam 00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:36.589 Borrow felt like it was high time that we did, 00:23:36.589 --> 00:23:39.210 right? Because he had begun to talk about these 00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:43.549 matters in conferences or public appearances 00:23:43.549 --> 00:23:47.769 and such, but he could still not talk about anything 00:23:47.769 --> 00:23:51.369 related to, for example, their relationship between 00:23:51.369 --> 00:23:55.369 climate change and factory farming, right? he 00:23:55.369 --> 00:23:58.170 was essentially just heavily discouraged from 00:23:58.170 --> 00:24:02.210 talking about that in his natural history films 00:24:02.210 --> 00:24:06.289 or the wildlife films that he narrated, right? 00:24:06.589 --> 00:24:09.869 And so because he felt like it was imperative 00:24:09.869 --> 00:24:12.230 that we started talking about these and that 00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:16.670 he used his media persona to talk about these 00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:19.509 issues, he steps away from the BBC momentarily 00:24:19.509 --> 00:24:21.430 because he's still working with them, right? 00:24:21.430 --> 00:24:24.839 But he goes and works with Netflix. which again, 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.440 produces a life on our planet and allows him 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.039 to talk about these issues for the first time. 00:24:31.460 --> 00:24:33.400 And it is in David Attenborough, a life on our 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.859 planet, that we first hear him actually endorse 00:24:37.859 --> 00:24:42.480 a plant -based diet for the very first time. 00:24:43.220 --> 00:24:45.339 Because again, this is a contentious issue that 00:24:45.339 --> 00:24:47.420 nobody wanted him to talk about, but he is like, 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:50.059 well, enough is enough. We have to talk about 00:24:50.059 --> 00:24:54.309 what are some serious possible solutions to the 00:24:54.309 --> 00:24:56.829 ecological crisis, right? Because as he details 00:24:56.829 --> 00:25:00.769 in that film, he has seen it firsthand, right? 00:25:00.769 --> 00:25:02.829 The fact that he has been able to travel to all 00:25:02.829 --> 00:25:08.049 these places and literally watch them disappear 00:25:08.049 --> 00:25:12.150 over the course of his lifetime, right? Well, 00:25:12.150 --> 00:25:16.230 of course it motivated his activism, but what 00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:19.230 good is your activism if you cannot use the biggest 00:25:19.230 --> 00:25:22.799 platforms that you're given? to actually promote 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.440 causes that would address these issues. So that 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:33.299 is why his departure from the BBC to produce 00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:37.319 these Netflix documentaries, I think there's 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:39.380 that silver lining that for the very first time 00:25:39.380 --> 00:25:42.759 we see somebody of his caliber, right? When it 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.039 comes to conservation and you know, like. popular 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:48.960 science and all that stuff talk about these issues 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:53.819 more seriously. And also, again, I propose of 00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:56.480 the things that we share, which is veganism. 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.000 First time he promotes a plant -based diet. I 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.519 think that's hugely significant. But of course, 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:06.220 there's the other side of this. Netflix is not 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:09.559 an ecologically friendly company in any ways. 00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:12.240 So they use huge data servers which consume lots 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:17.160 of resources. the fact that all of this is still 00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:21.059 behind a paywall means that his activism is limited 00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:23.720 by, you know, the number of people who actually 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:25.839 afford to get Netflix. Or in the case of Jane 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:28.900 Goodall, Disney Plus or any other platform that 00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:31.140 she is given, right? Because there are a number 00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:33.079 now of documentaries that talk about her life, 00:26:33.460 --> 00:26:36.140 that talk about her activism and in which she 00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:39.339 promotes certain practices that are political, 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:42.779 like veganism, right? Or perhaps donating to 00:26:42.779 --> 00:26:45.640 particular organizations or not. engaging in 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:49.960 consumerism, great ideas, good ideas, ideas that 00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:54.039 could potentially allow people to make a significant 00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.200 impact when it comes to conservation and animal 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:00.319 welfare, but that, again, are behind a huge paywall. 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.859 And so their reach is limited by the fact that 00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:09.480 these are still financed by companies. So if 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.059 we're going to take anything from this, is that 00:27:13.549 --> 00:27:17.990 In many ways, there are limitations to the power 00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:21.349 that they had even or they have still, right? 00:27:21.349 --> 00:27:24.589 As media figures that promote conservation, animal 00:27:24.589 --> 00:27:27.990 welfare, plant -based diets more recently, right? 00:27:29.349 --> 00:27:31.269 There are serious limitations and these limitations 00:27:31.269 --> 00:27:34.849 are placed there by the industries that platform 00:27:34.849 --> 00:27:38.690 them as public figures. So there's a bit of a 00:27:38.690 --> 00:27:41.190 contradiction there and it's difficult to... 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:43.920 to make sense of it, to reconcile that, right? 00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:49.240 Because I think we would hope that somebody like 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.079 Jane Goodall or David Attenborough would find 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:55.380 ways to not depend on these companies. But unfortunately, 00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:58.500 that is not the case, right? And that perhaps, 00:27:59.380 --> 00:28:01.700 personally, that's what I find the most doom 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.940 and gloom aspect of this whole industry. The 00:28:04.940 --> 00:28:06.900 fact that you have people that are admirable. 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:10.599 Right. But who nevertheless depend on companies 00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:16.319 that are far less than admirable. Let me push 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:23.019 back on that point, because if they want to record 00:28:23.019 --> 00:28:27.099 high quality documentaries, they need funding. 00:28:27.859 --> 00:28:33.920 So they need to sell that. that product at some 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.960 point, you know, to justify the production costs. 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:41.519 And then there's also the fact, you know, from 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:47.880 the perspective of distribution. Well, if they 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:52.039 made that documentary free, would that really 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:58.319 have attracted more eyeballs? I feel like people 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:04.039 for some weird marketing reason, will often overlook 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:10.440 free stuff and pay more attention to things that 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:17.380 have a price tag on. And so if you want lots 00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:21.079 of people to watch your documentary or get your 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:27.759 book, better sell that book than just put it 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:32.109 out there for free. Yeah, I think Like I said, 00:29:32.289 --> 00:29:34.789 I think there are a number of contradictions 00:29:34.789 --> 00:29:40.769 that need to be addressed. And perhaps we can't 00:29:40.769 --> 00:29:45.549 really resolve. Because you're 100 % right. What 00:29:45.549 --> 00:29:48.710 I'm saying is that, again, that's why I wanted 00:29:48.710 --> 00:29:50.589 to start by saying that none of what I'm going 00:29:50.589 --> 00:29:55.450 to say today is Me reproaching them directly 00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:58.650 right i have i have nothing but admiration for 00:29:58.650 --> 00:30:02.049 people like good old and Adam borough it's more. 00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:07.009 What i was trying to suggest is that the landscape 00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:11.069 the media landscape that that platforms figures 00:30:11.069 --> 00:30:15.849 like them and other activists. Is is problematic 00:30:15.849 --> 00:30:18.829 right i mean i understand your point and i think 00:30:18.829 --> 00:30:21.210 i would agree there's a reason why there's a 00:30:21.210 --> 00:30:27.019 huge. pushback against publicly funded television, 00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:30.839 for example, right? Here in Canada, we have the 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.299 National Film Board, which is also facing cuts 00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:38.099 and usually finances Canadian directors so they 00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:40.859 can make their films. A lot of them are documentaries, 00:30:40.859 --> 00:30:45.259 right? So yeah, like these public institutions 00:30:45.259 --> 00:30:50.150 are being... dismantled right and without these 00:30:50.150 --> 00:30:52.650 public institutions and there's also no real 00:30:52.650 --> 00:30:54.890 alternative and you're absolutely right I think 00:30:54.890 --> 00:30:57.910 unfortunately there's a premium on commodity 00:30:57.910 --> 00:31:01.029 right so so that if you have to pay to watch 00:31:01.029 --> 00:31:03.589 this film the assumption is of that film is better 00:31:03.589 --> 00:31:07.309 right than anything that I'll get for free and 00:31:07.309 --> 00:31:10.329 I think again because the media environment is 00:31:10.329 --> 00:31:13.150 such that yeah in fact these companies private 00:31:13.150 --> 00:31:17.059 companies actually need to make revenue and actually 00:31:17.059 --> 00:31:19.299 need to make money, they do have more resources. 00:31:19.460 --> 00:31:22.759 And so the end product is usually better. But 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.259 again, the contradiction that I'm addressing 00:31:26.259 --> 00:31:27.859 here or the number of contradictions that I'm 00:31:27.859 --> 00:31:30.680 addressing here are just ethical conundrums that 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.180 we need to make sense of as individual consumers. 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:40.119 Do we sign up and create a Netflix account or 00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:42.359 a Disney Plus account in order to watch these 00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:46.500 films that may? change my mind, right? And especially 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:48.640 people like you and I who are already in one 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.880 way or another engaged in activism to some extent, 00:31:53.019 --> 00:31:55.480 or at the very least who've already made certain 00:31:55.480 --> 00:32:03.960 choices in order to, you know, to make things 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.160 better for the environment and animals, right? 00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:10.579 Do we really still need to consume these products, 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.160 right? I think they're great products for people 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:19.960 who may not be particularly conscious about their 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:25.059 environmental and ethical choices, but it's also 00:32:25.059 --> 00:32:27.200 hard to justify, right? Like for me personally, 00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:29.920 I love these films, like I've said, right? I 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.319 really love these. And I have a Disney, I'm sorry, 00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:36.200 I have a Netflix account, right? I also have 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:38.819 Amazon Prime. So it's not like I'm innocent here. 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.490 What I'm trying to say is that Unfortunately, 00:32:47.769 --> 00:32:53.309 even figures as, again, as admirable and as environmentally 00:32:53.309 --> 00:32:56.890 conscious as Attenborough and Goodell could not 00:32:56.890 --> 00:33:01.150 escape the media industry, right? They needed 00:33:01.150 --> 00:33:06.910 them. And again, the media industry is not, I 00:33:06.910 --> 00:33:10.289 think a lot of us could agree, is not an ethical 00:33:10.289 --> 00:33:13.339 industry. At least environmentally speaking, 00:33:13.539 --> 00:33:18.079 it's not, right? And so I think in that sense, 00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:22.299 you encounter a bleaker landscape because it's 00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:26.339 like, well, there's no other way other than through 00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.519 these companies, right? And what would happen 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.599 if, say, in Jane Goodall, The Hope or Alive on 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:36.970 Our Planet, Adam Borough or Goodall said, Oh, 00:33:37.309 --> 00:33:39.950 and also another thing you could use to reduce 00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:42.710 your environmental footprint is don't sign up 00:33:42.710 --> 00:33:46.069 to Netflix or Disney Plus, right? Do you think 00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:49.509 they would still be platformed? So they're still 00:33:49.509 --> 00:33:53.029 kind of like on a leash, right? And so that's 00:33:53.029 --> 00:33:54.369 kind of the problem that I'm trying to point 00:33:54.369 --> 00:33:57.289 out. But again, right, as somebody who studies 00:33:57.289 --> 00:33:59.950 documentaries and who started studying them, 00:34:00.029 --> 00:34:03.920 because I think these films are Potentially, 00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:06.700 they have lots of potential for political activism, 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:11.739 for catalyzing ethical considerations in the 00:34:11.739 --> 00:34:14.619 public. I think there's a lot of good in them. 00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:19.460 But again, it's a mangle of contradictions. And 00:34:19.460 --> 00:34:21.940 I think it's good to be aware of these things. 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:26.539 Definitely. We need to put them on the map and 00:34:26.539 --> 00:34:31.280 discuss them at the very least. Also, I think 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:35.659 it's a generational thing for both of them to 00:34:35.659 --> 00:34:43.880 bet on the big mainstream media platforms. I 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:48.559 would have loved to see David Attenborough or 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:52.860 Jane Goodall launching their own YouTube channel 00:34:52.860 --> 00:34:57.079 or podcast or something of the sort, taking their 00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:01.539 independence from that. big media machine, but 00:35:01.539 --> 00:35:05.300 I think it's a hard sell for someone from their 00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:10.000 generation. Yeah, I think you're right. That's 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.800 sort of what I had in mind, right? Because I 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:16.179 know of other public figures who, again, nobody's 00:35:16.179 --> 00:35:19.820 perfect. We're all part of this big machine one 00:35:19.820 --> 00:35:21.699 way or another, right? We haven't figured out 00:35:21.699 --> 00:35:26.719 a way to live outside of it unless you're one 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:30.690 of them. of the grid type of people, right? So 00:35:30.690 --> 00:35:33.050 we're all part of the grid and so we're all guilty 00:35:33.050 --> 00:35:36.849 of one thing or another. But so other figures 00:35:36.849 --> 00:35:39.889 like Richard Dawkins, for instance, right? He 00:35:39.889 --> 00:35:44.150 now has a kind of podcast on YouTube, right? 00:35:44.170 --> 00:35:51.349 So he's not dependent on these big media platforms 00:35:51.349 --> 00:35:53.769 anymore because now he's reaching his audience 00:35:53.769 --> 00:35:59.500 through a more modern type of medium that bypasses 00:35:59.500 --> 00:36:02.920 that media industry. Yeah, it would be cool if 00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:05.219 David Attenborough had a podcast, right? Like, 00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:07.519 who wouldn't listen to it? We all love his voice, 00:36:07.579 --> 00:36:10.659 right? We all love listening to him narrate how 00:36:10.659 --> 00:36:13.340 lions kill a gazelle. So wouldn't it be good? 00:36:13.940 --> 00:36:16.280 I think lots of people would love to listen to 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:19.780 him talk about things that we could all do to 00:36:19.780 --> 00:36:23.679 solve the ecological crisis and to live a more 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.019 environmentally ethical life. But yeah, no, you're 00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:30.719 right. I think it's a generational thing to a 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.659 large extent. It's also just, well, this is tied 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:36.019 into that generational aspect, right? I mean, 00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.880 Jay Goodall just passed away. David Attenborough, 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:42.820 who knows how much longer he's got, right? He's 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:46.639 old. I believe he's turning 100 now. So imagine 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:50.059 a 100 -year -old man who's still traveling, who's 00:36:50.059 --> 00:36:52.239 still making all these films, and still speaking 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.519 at all these conferences, on top of that asking 00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:57.980 him to turn on his laptop and be on a podcast 00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:00.179 for 30 minutes a day or 30 minutes a week or 00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:02.579 whatever. I think, yeah, it's a non -realistic 00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:08.059 expectation, but I agree that perhaps other media 00:37:08.059 --> 00:37:13.099 platforms that are not part of the larger media 00:37:13.099 --> 00:37:16.179 industry may offer an alternative, right? But 00:37:16.179 --> 00:37:20.019 again, when it comes to animals, right? Let's 00:37:20.019 --> 00:37:23.730 go back to the example of Britain. When it comes 00:37:23.730 --> 00:37:27.389 to animals, even the people that understands 00:37:27.389 --> 00:37:33.090 itself as animal lovers, an extension of that 00:37:33.090 --> 00:37:35.889 love, and I'm not even sure that love is the 00:37:35.889 --> 00:37:38.489 right word, but an extension of that desire to 00:37:38.489 --> 00:37:41.789 be close to animals is always going to be consuming 00:37:41.789 --> 00:37:45.190 images of animals, right? And so somebody who's 00:37:45.190 --> 00:37:48.670 got a podcast or a YouTube channel may not be 00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:54.059 able to deliver. the sort of images that people 00:37:54.059 --> 00:37:58.699 want to consume. So, you know, again, I think 00:37:58.699 --> 00:38:02.280 there are lots of things to consider here, but 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:06.059 the possibilities are there. And, you know, there's 00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:09.920 lots of really cool content on YouTube right 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:13.219 now on TikTok as well that promotes this sort 00:38:13.219 --> 00:38:17.320 of ecological consciousness that people like. 00:38:17.469 --> 00:38:19.889 Goodell and Attenborough have been promoting 00:38:19.889 --> 00:38:23.610 for decades. So there's hope. I mean, that's 00:38:23.610 --> 00:38:25.829 the whole point of Jane Goodell's documentary, 00:38:26.030 --> 00:38:27.969 right? That she doesn't think it ends with her, 00:38:28.050 --> 00:38:30.469 that she thinks that there's lots of things to 00:38:30.469 --> 00:38:36.730 look forward to and that there are many possibilities 00:38:36.730 --> 00:38:40.349 that people have not yet considered or that are 00:38:40.349 --> 00:38:42.630 still being developed that hopefully will take 00:38:42.630 --> 00:38:48.389 us to a place where where more people live a 00:38:48.389 --> 00:38:53.409 more environmentally conscious life. I want to 00:38:53.409 --> 00:38:57.150 discuss a difference, a substantial difference, 00:38:57.150 --> 00:39:01.210 I think, between the two documentaries. You asked 00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:07.090 the question, is it intended for us, you know, 00:39:07.090 --> 00:39:10.929 as an audience, people who know about the ecological 00:39:10.929 --> 00:39:15.119 crisis, who are vegans and all of that? Well, 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:20.940 it is for the public, those two documentaries. 00:39:21.219 --> 00:39:24.840 I don't think they had like our profile in mind, 00:39:24.860 --> 00:39:31.880 you know, specifically making those. But the 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:37.179 David Attenborough one was like ecology 101. 00:39:38.500 --> 00:39:42.320 It for me, it was a bit boring, I have to say. 00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.539 Um, he was covering like the basis of, you know, 00:39:47.619 --> 00:39:50.420 what you should do for the environment. The plant 00:39:50.420 --> 00:39:53.820 -based portion of the documentary, that was the 00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:57.199 surprising, uh, stuff, you know, that you don't 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:02.440 expect to see, um, in, in that kind of, uh, documentary. 00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:08.219 But the Jane Goodall one was just on another 00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:12.599 level, you know? Um, and I want to give. an example 00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:18.300 of that. They discussed, they decided to cover 00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:24.280 how she struck a deal with an oil company to 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:29.500 create a chimp sanctuary and started talking 00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:32.539 about the importance of reaching out to the perceived 00:40:32.539 --> 00:40:39.340 enemy and the ethical aspect of that conversation. 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:44.019 And I thought, wow, now we're taking, you know, 00:40:44.139 --> 00:40:47.440 we're looking at people as intelligent beings 00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:54.260 and taking them seriously and truly going into 00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:58.980 an in -depth understanding of what it means to 00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:02.199 make a difference and care for the environment. 00:41:03.170 --> 00:41:04.989 Yeah, absolutely. No, thank you for bringing 00:41:04.989 --> 00:41:08.070 that up. I think, yeah, like so far we've been 00:41:08.070 --> 00:41:10.550 talking about these two films as being fairly 00:41:10.550 --> 00:41:14.550 similar. And I think if you think about them 00:41:14.550 --> 00:41:17.289 as being films about certain people, right, as 00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:21.210 being to some extent biopics or perhaps just 00:41:21.210 --> 00:41:25.909 relying on public figures to promote an ecological 00:41:25.909 --> 00:41:28.110 cause, then they're similar, right? But you're 00:41:28.110 --> 00:41:34.010 right. I think Alive on Our Planet is a decidedly 00:41:34.010 --> 00:41:38.289 biographic type of film, right? It goes along 00:41:38.289 --> 00:41:43.550 a history of, or the history of Attenborough's 00:41:43.550 --> 00:41:45.909 life and career, right? And yeah, you're right. 00:41:46.170 --> 00:41:48.230 The stuff that they promote towards the end. 00:41:48.989 --> 00:41:53.429 It is, as you mentioned, Ed, I think that's a 00:41:53.429 --> 00:41:55.610 really good way to put it. It's ecology 101, 00:41:55.829 --> 00:41:59.750 right? It's ecology for people who are not And 00:41:59.750 --> 00:42:02.789 I think you're right in pointing out that Jane 00:42:02.789 --> 00:42:13.369 Goodall's documentary engages more intricate 00:42:13.369 --> 00:42:16.130 questions that come about when we're talking 00:42:16.130 --> 00:42:18.309 about ecological issues, right? And the example 00:42:18.309 --> 00:42:25.650 you're using, I think, is great because we... 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.760 deep thinking of each other, especially here 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:33.059 in North America, I think North America has become 00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:37.300 excessively polarized, right? To the point where 00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:40.739 people think of each other as enemies, right? 00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:47.519 And so watching someone who is decidedly an ecologist, 00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:51.099 right? A conservationist, an animal rights activist, 00:42:51.219 --> 00:42:54.500 someone like Jane Goodall, watching her go and 00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:58.690 talk to an oil company, oil executives, people 00:42:58.690 --> 00:43:04.489 who we tend to think of as the devil on our side 00:43:04.489 --> 00:43:08.829 of the aisle. I think that's truly something 00:43:08.829 --> 00:43:12.469 that we need to praise, that we need to admire 00:43:12.469 --> 00:43:16.130 and that we need to replicate at the level of 00:43:16.130 --> 00:43:19.010 our lives because it's gotten to the point where 00:43:19.010 --> 00:43:22.070 people can't even be friends with somebody who 00:43:22.070 --> 00:43:25.659 holds a political viewpoint that is opposite 00:43:25.659 --> 00:43:29.099 to your own right and watching her go and talk 00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:33.019 to the people who have been you know desecrating 00:43:33.019 --> 00:43:35.900 the places that she wants to protect for decades 00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:38.739 right and she goes and strikes a deal with them 00:43:38.739 --> 00:43:41.860 and always so amicably right i think something 00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:44.000 that we can all agree on is that Jane Goodall 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.880 is such a nice was such a nice lady right she 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:50.659 was a kind person. And so to be able to engage 00:43:50.659 --> 00:43:53.280 them, as you were saying, right, as intelligent 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:56.579 people, as people who are still people, and thus, 00:43:57.039 --> 00:44:00.619 you can appeal to their senses to their intellect 00:44:00.619 --> 00:44:03.199 to their emotions, right? I think that's something 00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.639 that's highly commendable. Something else that 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:07.639 I have admired about Jane Goodall, the hope, 00:44:07.659 --> 00:44:11.400 for example, was was the extent to which she 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:14.360 deal or there's there's this You know, and I 00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:16.659 know people are kind of pushing back against 00:44:16.659 --> 00:44:18.960 it, but the inclusivity of the documentary, right? 00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:21.420 You might recall that that segment when they're 00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:25.579 talking with an ecological and environmentalist 00:44:25.579 --> 00:44:30.719 activist group of comprised primarily by of of 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.480 Muslim girls, right? I mean. You don't see that 00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:38.800 sort of environmentalism in most other documentaries, 00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:40.800 right? It's usually something that I talk about 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.239 in my research is that there's usually this figure 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:46.579 who I call the eco -hero, right? And the eco 00:44:46.579 --> 00:44:49.159 -hero has a type, right? You see it in Attenborough. 00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:53.380 You see it in Al Gore, for example. There's other 00:44:53.380 --> 00:44:55.780 figures like Jeff Corwin or the Cradd Brothers. 00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:59.719 It's usually a straight white male, right? So 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:03.199 here you have, you know, a straight white woman 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:07.420 from Britain, yeah, but talking about environmental 00:45:07.420 --> 00:45:10.820 activism as it occurs in other places, right? 00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:13.440 Coming from a different perspective, perspectives 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:17.340 that we do not associate with ecological activism. 00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:21.239 So I think that's another, that just goes to 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.539 show how much more effort was put in that documentary 00:45:24.539 --> 00:45:28.579 to emphasize that this is an issue that concerns 00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:32.739 us all, not just the privileged liberals of the 00:45:32.739 --> 00:45:41.039 global north. Yes. And that's, you know, why 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:46.340 I the Jane Goodall documentary truly inspired 00:45:46.340 --> 00:45:51.980 me. And I was surprised by that reaction. I gained 00:45:51.980 --> 00:45:56.719 a new appreciation for her. I recorded the whole 00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:00.559 episode, you know, Talking about her life celebrating 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.900 her legacy But yeah, the truth is, you know, 00:46:03.900 --> 00:46:10.000 I gave the mic to people who knew her For whom 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:13.059 she was important, but I don't really know Jane 00:46:13.059 --> 00:46:16.519 Goodall. She never really impacted my life that 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:22.960 much but Watching that documentary but also listening 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:28.539 to Having a conversation with people for whom 00:46:28.539 --> 00:46:32.500 she meant a lot, truly gave me an appreciation 00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:40.639 for her and her amazing life. In the documentary, 00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:50.239 she never really gives a direction of what you 00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:55.059 should be doing to end this climate crisis or 00:46:55.059 --> 00:46:58.269 to help the environment. She's there just to 00:46:58.269 --> 00:47:03.349 inspire and to be an ambassador, a model to follow. 00:47:04.269 --> 00:47:08.170 And that's it. You know, she, she leave you with 00:47:08.170 --> 00:47:11.090 that inspiration and it's up to you to decide, 00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:15.869 you know, what kind of stuff, um, what kind of 00:47:15.869 --> 00:47:20.869 activism you want to pursue. But the David Attenborough 00:47:20.869 --> 00:47:25.619 one, you know, he had some bullet point after 00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:30.820 bullet point of what we need to do, he has the 00:47:30.820 --> 00:47:35.800 answer. And I felt like this was a weaker position 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:42.500 for a documentary about the environment because 00:47:42.500 --> 00:47:46.900 it doesn't speak to the reality of everyone. 00:47:49.780 --> 00:47:56.269 And also then you can attack those ways of making 00:47:56.269 --> 00:48:03.650 a difference. And the debate is no longer about 00:48:03.650 --> 00:48:07.670 the climate crisis, the problem, or having to 00:48:07.670 --> 00:48:12.530 do something, but what is the best thing to do 00:48:12.530 --> 00:48:17.309 for the planet? So they open themselves to that 00:48:17.309 --> 00:48:20.559 discussion. Yeah, well, you're touching upon 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:25.079 something that I think people are inevitably 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:29.760 going to disagree on, or at least they may be 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:34.980 surprised by some of the research that goes into 00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:36.739 the different approaches that you're mentioning, 00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:45.739 right? So, as you put it, the Hope Jane Goodall's 00:48:45.739 --> 00:48:49.690 documentary is what you would say in my field 00:48:49.690 --> 00:48:53.489 less prescriptive right so it doesn't tell you 00:48:53.489 --> 00:48:55.929 do this and this and that it's not a problem 00:48:55.929 --> 00:48:58.849 solution documentary it's a bit more observational 00:48:58.849 --> 00:49:04.170 right and and the you know one theoretical understanding 00:49:04.170 --> 00:49:08.710 of of simply observing as opposed to prescribing 00:49:08.710 --> 00:49:13.250 a solution is that because it's more open right 00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:16.409 because there is no definitive answer being offered 00:49:16.409 --> 00:49:24.530 to the viewer the viewer can essentially build 00:49:24.530 --> 00:49:29.150 their own impression of what they could do, right? 00:49:29.429 --> 00:49:32.489 Perhaps even come up with ideas or solutions 00:49:32.489 --> 00:49:36.849 that even that the filmmaker or that the people 00:49:36.849 --> 00:49:39.570 that's being filmed would not have thought of. 00:49:40.050 --> 00:49:43.010 So that sort of open. not just open -endedness, 00:49:43.210 --> 00:49:45.389 but that openness to possibilities as opposed 00:49:45.389 --> 00:49:48.130 to foreclosing all that and prescribing a number 00:49:48.130 --> 00:49:51.250 of bullet points, as you put it. It's funny, 00:49:52.150 --> 00:49:54.570 because a documentary like David Attenborough's 00:49:54.570 --> 00:49:59.269 A Life on Our Planet, it actually has become 00:49:59.269 --> 00:50:02.849 a bit of what I consider a mode, a documentary 00:50:02.849 --> 00:50:05.429 mode, like a sub -genre. It's a number of films 00:50:05.429 --> 00:50:08.170 that do the same thing. And it all started with 00:50:08.170 --> 00:50:12.019 an inconvenient truth, which literally ends with 00:50:12.019 --> 00:50:13.920 a PowerPoint presentation. Well, it's actually 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:15.519 a whole PowerPoint presentation, but like the 00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:18.980 last PowerPoint is like a bullet point of solutions, 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:20.360 right? So it's funny that you put it that way 00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:22.280 because that's literally the origin of that sort 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:25.280 of strategy, right? You lay out the problem and 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:29.519 then you bullet point the solutions, right? Or 00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:31.079 at least that was the first time that this was 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:34.099 implemented in an environmental or regarding 00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:38.079 environmental issues. With a documentary like 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:40.639 Jane Goodall, The Hope, there isn't that, right? 00:50:40.780 --> 00:50:43.159 It's like you were saying, you watch her do her 00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:46.119 work, you observe her activism, her engagement 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:49.239 with other people, and then the film just kind 00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:51.699 of encourages you to think about what you could 00:50:51.699 --> 00:50:53.719 do. In fact, that's the one thing that perhaps 00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:56.599 she does say you should do, right? Think of what 00:50:56.599 --> 00:50:59.420 you can do to make this world a better place, 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:03.699 to work towards solving the environmental crisis, 00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:06.849 right? But it doesn't tell you how to do it. 00:51:07.389 --> 00:51:10.670 And then there's, you know, an inconvenient truth 00:51:10.670 --> 00:51:13.570 or a number of other documentaries that are like 00:51:13.570 --> 00:51:16.349 this. And of course, David Atomoros, right? Which 00:51:16.349 --> 00:51:18.530 literally ends with a list of things you could 00:51:18.530 --> 00:51:22.489 do or you should do perhaps, right? Now, like 00:51:22.489 --> 00:51:26.809 I was saying, I think for the longest time, documentary 00:51:26.809 --> 00:51:29.730 scholars and I think like you were saying, perhaps 00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:34.659 the common perception of people is that the the 00:51:34.659 --> 00:51:40.460 more open format is perhaps the better one in 00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:42.960 the sense that it's not, like we said, it's not 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:45.260 prescriptive, that it's open to possibilities 00:51:45.260 --> 00:51:48.599 that are unforeseen by the filmmaker or the activist, 00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:51.539 right? That you are essentially asking people 00:51:51.539 --> 00:51:53.420 to think for themselves and come up with whatever 00:51:53.420 --> 00:51:57.239 they can, right? And so there's a number of possibilities 00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:01.619 that might come about. However, In the few empirical 00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:05.280 studies, studies in which they've actually asked 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.699 people to watch different films and then followed 00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:14.400 up to see which ones actually had a bigger impact 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:18.820 on people's behavior, again, the number of studies 00:52:18.820 --> 00:52:24.119 is limited. But at least two have decidedly found 00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:26.920 that the prescriptive documentary had a bigger 00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:29.619 impact on people's behavior. So that when you 00:52:29.619 --> 00:52:31.539 have a film that tells you do this and this and 00:52:31.539 --> 00:52:34.119 that, there's a higher chance that you will actually 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:37.280 change your behavior in accordance to what you're 00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:41.739 being told. So for these studies, the one thing 00:52:41.739 --> 00:52:43.300 that I remember that I think is important to 00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:47.219 keep in mind is that these were studies that 00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:49.219 were trying to randomize the population as much 00:52:49.219 --> 00:52:52.900 as possible. So they were not looking for people 00:52:52.900 --> 00:52:56.420 who watch documentaries or people who are environmentally 00:52:56.420 --> 00:52:59.909 conscious, but people from all walks of life, 00:53:00.210 --> 00:53:02.730 right? And so perhaps to people like you and 00:53:02.730 --> 00:53:05.230 me who are already environmentally inclined, 00:53:05.449 --> 00:53:07.269 right? Who are constantly thinking about the 00:53:07.269 --> 00:53:09.889 wellbeing, not just of people, but also of animals 00:53:09.889 --> 00:53:13.230 and ecology at large. To us, it may seem like 00:53:13.230 --> 00:53:15.510 being told what to do, especially when those 00:53:15.510 --> 00:53:17.050 things that we're being told to do are things 00:53:17.050 --> 00:53:20.190 that we probably already do, right? That seems 00:53:20.190 --> 00:53:23.250 less productive than an open documentary that 00:53:23.250 --> 00:53:27.190 is not prescriptive, but perhaps still evokes 00:53:27.190 --> 00:53:32.360 hope and the desire for ecological change. But 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:36.699 for the general population, the opposite may 00:53:36.699 --> 00:53:40.079 be true. Being told straightforward solutions 00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:43.280 may actually be more conducive to behavioral 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:47.219 changes, proecological change. So again, that's 00:53:47.219 --> 00:53:48.980 another contradiction that's hard to navigate, 00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:53.900 because I think you're right. I do think that 00:53:53.900 --> 00:53:57.000 something like what you see in the tail end of 00:53:57.070 --> 00:54:00.050 alive on our planet is reductive, right? And 00:54:00.050 --> 00:54:05.070 it kind of, it's a bit patronizing, and perhaps 00:54:05.070 --> 00:54:09.250 it doesn't seem particularly effective, but it 00:54:09.250 --> 00:54:12.570 may actually work better on the general population. 00:54:14.650 --> 00:54:17.630 Yeah, patronizing is a great word to describe 00:54:17.630 --> 00:54:20.590 it. And I do think you're right. And this is 00:54:20.590 --> 00:54:30.239 my bias speaking. Yeah, and The thing is with 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:35.260 the solutions that David Attenborough proposes 00:54:35.260 --> 00:54:40.900 is that there is a discourse right now about 00:54:40.900 --> 00:54:53.739 if you go and look up solar panels or wind energy. 00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:58.739 You'll get into a whole, you know, debate about 00:54:58.739 --> 00:55:03.820 those things. And it is not clear, you know, 00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:08.119 how much they're, you know, effective in fighting, 00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:13.679 you know, the climate crisis. A good example 00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:18.619 is, you know, wind power. Wind power is horrible 00:55:18.619 --> 00:55:22.739 for wildlife. Like that's a fact. It can be. 00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:25.670 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now, you're not telling 00:55:25.670 --> 00:55:28.429 that to people who are watching your documentary, 00:55:28.730 --> 00:55:32.070 but they will find out. And then once they find 00:55:32.070 --> 00:55:37.309 out, they'll start thinking, well, if they're 00:55:37.309 --> 00:55:41.309 wrong on that, then are they also wrong on the 00:55:41.309 --> 00:55:46.730 climate crisis stuff? Right. Like you're not 00:55:46.730 --> 00:55:50.510 serving your cause here. Yeah, I agree. So I 00:55:50.510 --> 00:55:56.400 do agree that that is perhaps I would actually 00:55:56.400 --> 00:56:05.460 say that is almost certainly the most questionable 00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:09.599 aspect of this particular strategy. The lack 00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.219 of additional information, the lack of context 00:56:12.219 --> 00:56:16.239 that comes with these solutions. So often, it's 00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:18.460 good that you mention things like solar panels 00:56:18.460 --> 00:56:25.179 and wind power. Something that you see in a film 00:56:25.179 --> 00:56:27.679 like this one and others, Raise an Extinction 00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:29.440 is a great example. I don't know if you've ever 00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:35.179 seen that film. It's essentially, again, another 00:56:35.179 --> 00:56:37.400 documentary very much like An Inconvenient Truth 00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:41.239 or David Attenborough's Life on our Planet, but 00:56:41.239 --> 00:56:44.340 it's specifically about mass extinction. So you 00:56:44.340 --> 00:56:46.639 see it in a lot of these films, that they offer 00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:48.199 a number of solutions and a lot of these solutions 00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:51.849 have to do with some sort of... technology that 00:56:51.849 --> 00:56:55.909 will change things, right? So I call this techno 00:56:55.909 --> 00:56:58.670 -solutionism, right? And it's not my term, but 00:56:58.670 --> 00:57:00.849 it's what we, like some people call it that, 00:57:00.929 --> 00:57:02.889 right? And so there's this idea that like, if 00:57:02.889 --> 00:57:05.590 you just embrace the newer technologies, then 00:57:05.590 --> 00:57:07.789 that'll solve the problem, right? And you're 00:57:07.789 --> 00:57:10.789 right. I mean, there are still ongoing discussions 00:57:10.789 --> 00:57:14.090 about whether things like solar panels are a 00:57:14.090 --> 00:57:16.429 good long -term solution because they're also... 00:57:17.200 --> 00:57:19.139 ecologically corrosive, right? The materials 00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:21.360 you need to mine, you know, all of that stuff 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:25.139 with wind power, right? People like you and I 00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:27.320 care about wildlife and the wellbeing of animals. 00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:32.440 And so to what extent can we say that this is 00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:35.300 an ecological solution when you have like scores 00:57:35.300 --> 00:57:39.860 of birds and bats literally, you know, with their 00:57:39.860 --> 00:57:42.340 lungs literally exploding or collapsing because 00:57:42.340 --> 00:57:44.760 of the changes in air pressure that occur around 00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:50.340 these turbines. And again, right? And the elephant 00:57:50.340 --> 00:57:52.360 in the room that's still not being addressed 00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:55.159 is just using less, consuming less, right? And 00:57:55.159 --> 00:57:58.260 again, I think it's because consumption is essential 00:57:58.260 --> 00:58:00.699 to even the production of these films, right? 00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.679 You need to produce them and you need to sell 00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:04.739 them and you need people who consume them, right? 00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:08.539 And that's why I do fixate on, again, the silver 00:58:08.539 --> 00:58:14.199 lining of this particular film and... and perhaps 00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:17.659 other documentaries that do this, is that the 00:58:17.659 --> 00:58:20.599 one solution that we know that almost certainly 00:58:20.599 --> 00:58:23.139 would have a huge impact on solving the climate 00:58:23.139 --> 00:58:26.800 crisis, which is plant -based diets, right, is 00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:30.219 for the very first time included in a film featuring 00:58:30.219 --> 00:58:34.739 somebody like David Atomorrow. And so now we 00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:37.860 have other documentaries that sort of tackle 00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:40.750 this more. more directly. But they don't have 00:58:40.750 --> 00:58:43.329 that persona that will draw the masses to watch 00:58:43.329 --> 00:58:46.929 them. You might have seen or heard of Eating 00:58:46.929 --> 00:58:51.349 Our Way to Extinction. And it's a fantastic film 00:58:51.349 --> 00:58:55.090 that shows us just how detrimental to the environment 00:58:55.090 --> 00:59:00.170 is the consumption of meat and animal products. 00:59:01.150 --> 00:59:04.750 But it lacks that central figure that draws the 00:59:04.750 --> 00:59:07.760 masses. And this is why figures like good old 00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:10.900 in Attenborough, speaking out about their veganism 00:59:10.900 --> 00:59:14.619 or their plant -based diets or lifestyles is 00:59:14.619 --> 00:59:17.719 so important because they do have that pull that 00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:21.059 you otherwise don't have. So again, I agree with 00:59:21.059 --> 00:59:24.360 what you're saying. I think that perhaps emphasizing 00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:27.679 some solutions other than others and focusing 00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.460 a little more on what makes them actual real 00:59:30.460 --> 00:59:33.099 solutions instead of just listing a number of 00:59:33.099 --> 00:59:38.050 things that if not properly contextualized, may 00:59:38.050 --> 00:59:41.010 actually lead to more damage. Focusing on one 00:59:41.010 --> 00:59:43.929 or two things that we know for a fact are actually 00:59:43.929 --> 00:59:46.550 going to make an impact. I think that might be 00:59:46.550 --> 00:59:48.849 a good compromise between the two forms that 00:59:48.849 --> 00:59:52.630 we're discussing here. Between the bullet points 00:59:52.630 --> 00:59:55.610 at the end and perhaps something a little more... 00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:00.719 properly contextualized and dedicated to better 01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:02.619 informing the public about things that actually 01:00:02.619 --> 01:00:05.239 do make a difference. One thing that I wanna 01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:08.099 mention is related to this, right? And I don't 01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.320 know how you feel about this. I know that my 01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:14.780 position is perhaps not the most standard position 01:00:14.780 --> 01:00:20.860 amongst people who are... animal activists or 01:00:20.860 --> 01:00:24.960 vegans or ecological activists. But I think that 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:30.699 one potential solution to some extent that never 01:00:30.699 --> 01:00:34.639 gets mentioned in these films is still the possibility 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:39.639 of nuclear power, which even when you take the 01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:44.280 meltdowns that have occurred, it doesn't appear 01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:49.510 to be as corrosive as fossil fuels, or even some 01:00:49.510 --> 01:00:52.389 of the alternatives like solar power. And again, 01:00:52.429 --> 01:00:54.909 the reason why you can't have that as a potential 01:00:54.909 --> 01:00:57.909 solution in a documentary that features someone 01:00:57.909 --> 01:01:00.369 like David Attenborough is because that's going 01:01:00.369 --> 01:01:03.630 to put a lot of people off. So again, the demands 01:01:03.630 --> 01:01:06.510 of the market kind of get in the way of people 01:01:06.510 --> 01:01:12.210 exploring solutions that are unpopular. And that 01:01:12.210 --> 01:01:16.550 was what was happening to veganism. And it seems 01:01:16.550 --> 01:01:19.969 to be changing somewhat, but only time will tell 01:01:19.969 --> 01:01:22.710 whether it'll change significantly and whether 01:01:22.710 --> 01:01:26.869 other figures of the caliber of Goodell and Atomboro 01:01:26.869 --> 01:01:32.469 will come about and promote the cause, promote 01:01:32.469 --> 01:01:35.869 plant -based diets, promote forms of energy that 01:01:35.869 --> 01:01:38.849 perhaps are scary or less popular, but could 01:01:38.849 --> 01:01:41.210 actually offer solutions to the problems that 01:01:41.210 --> 01:01:47.789 we have. Thank you so much for mentioning nuclear 01:01:47.789 --> 01:01:54.210 energy. I think it's amazing. And not only is 01:01:54.210 --> 01:01:57.929 he not talking about it as a viable alternative, 01:01:58.530 --> 01:02:01.429 but the very first scene of the documentary is 01:02:01.429 --> 01:02:05.329 him in a Ukrainian city that has been abandoned 01:02:05.329 --> 01:02:08.750 because of a nuclear catastrophe. That's right. 01:02:09.050 --> 01:02:11.369 I mean, that's right. Sorry. Sorry. You know 01:02:11.369 --> 01:02:13.909 what? I forgot about that. Just now. I don't 01:02:13.909 --> 01:02:16.329 know why I didn't mention that. But it's crazy 01:02:16.329 --> 01:02:19.210 because it plays to the fear mongering that has 01:02:19.210 --> 01:02:22.090 occurred around nuclear power. But also what 01:02:22.090 --> 01:02:24.710 I find ironic is that, and you probably know 01:02:24.710 --> 01:02:27.610 about this, he bravely mentions it in the documentary, 01:02:27.670 --> 01:02:30.530 right? That ended up actually being better for 01:02:30.530 --> 01:02:33.889 the animals. So I mean, I don't know. Like Chernobyl 01:02:33.889 --> 01:02:36.210 is now essentially a wildlife preserve and you 01:02:36.210 --> 01:02:38.210 see animals there that had not occurred in Eastern 01:02:38.210 --> 01:02:41.170 Europe. for centuries, right? I don't know, just 01:02:41.170 --> 01:02:43.010 just the thought again, just an afterthought, 01:02:43.210 --> 01:02:46.250 but a thought worth worth entertaining, I think. 01:02:46.449 --> 01:02:50.769 Yes, nuclear energy is very safe. It's like that 01:02:50.769 --> 01:02:56.389 same rational fear of taking a plane. Similar. 01:02:56.570 --> 01:02:59.210 Yeah, it's very similar. You're right. There 01:02:59.210 --> 01:03:02.409 are more risk involved in taking your car out. 01:03:03.630 --> 01:03:08.349 And I'm I'm a greedy vegan. I I'm happy that 01:03:08.349 --> 01:03:13.969 he mentioned veganism as a solution, but I wish 01:03:13.969 --> 01:03:17.190 it was his first point, also his second point, 01:03:17.690 --> 01:03:20.550 his third point, like every... Exactly. Yes. 01:03:21.010 --> 01:03:24.690 And not just because I think it's the most impactful 01:03:24.690 --> 01:03:29.269 thing you can ask for someone to do, but also 01:03:29.269 --> 01:03:33.989 because I feel it's more effective to focus on 01:03:33.989 --> 01:03:39.440 one thing, one solution. Sorry, continue. I was 01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:41.239 just agreeing with you emphatically because I 01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:42.780 agree. That's what I was trying to say, right? 01:03:43.420 --> 01:03:45.599 That perhaps just focusing on one issue that 01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:47.320 actually does make a difference as opposed to 01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:49.860 listing a number of issues without proper context 01:03:49.860 --> 01:03:53.440 is perhaps a better way to go. Just focus on 01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:58.900 the one thing we know actually works. And again, 01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:04.440 if we're talking about how these films and this 01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:08.239 industry came about because initially a country, 01:04:08.460 --> 01:04:11.480 but increasingly, people around the world understand 01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:14.380 themselves as animal lovers. Shouldn't we start 01:04:14.380 --> 01:04:19.519 by perhaps, you know, not eating them? The thing 01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:22.019 also about animals, you know, since we're on 01:04:22.019 --> 01:04:25.719 the topic of veganism and caring for animals. 01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:32.480 In the Jane Goodall documentary, it is the welfare 01:04:32.480 --> 01:04:37.570 of animal is front and center. of the piece. 01:04:38.750 --> 01:04:43.829 But the David Adamboro approach is, I think, 01:04:45.710 --> 01:04:50.849 the widely adopted approach in the environmental 01:04:50.849 --> 01:04:58.010 community, which is, you know, a certain desire 01:04:58.010 --> 01:05:01.329 to protect Earth, like the concept of Earth, 01:05:01.829 --> 01:05:07.500 or the beauty of Earth, or you know, that idea 01:05:07.500 --> 01:05:12.860 of a beautiful world. And it's all very abstract. 01:05:15.639 --> 01:05:19.579 Yeah. What do you make of that difference? Well, 01:05:20.139 --> 01:05:25.260 I think, I think, again, it'll depend a lot on 01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:36.789 who you're talking about. One, one. One author 01:05:36.789 --> 01:05:41.929 that I have read over and over again over the 01:05:41.929 --> 01:05:45.429 course of my research, I can't remember if it's 01:05:45.429 --> 01:05:48.250 Dinesh or Devesh, his first name, Chakravarti. 01:05:49.789 --> 01:05:52.510 Originally a historian from India, but increasingly 01:05:52.510 --> 01:05:55.210 engaged in conversations about climate change. 01:05:55.690 --> 01:05:59.190 And one of the things that he has sort of spent 01:05:59.190 --> 01:06:02.010 some time thinking and writing about is the inability 01:06:02.010 --> 01:06:07.320 of people to understand themselves as a species 01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:11.880 on a planet, right? How abstract those ideas 01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:16.719 are. But again, right? I think that depending 01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:21.760 on who you're appealing to, that changes. I think 01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:27.199 other theorists and authors have talked about 01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:31.079 how in places like the United States and the 01:06:31.079 --> 01:06:33.920 global North in general, but particularly in 01:06:33.949 --> 01:06:39.150 And in places that have had a history of space 01:06:39.150 --> 01:06:41.929 exploration, right? So the Soviet Union too, 01:06:41.969 --> 01:06:48.510 right? There is a sense of being a citizen of 01:06:48.510 --> 01:06:51.869 Earth, right? Global citizenship kind of. And 01:06:51.869 --> 01:06:56.030 that that informs their environmentalist thinking. 01:06:57.710 --> 01:07:00.889 In other places, that doesn't exist, right? Because 01:07:00.889 --> 01:07:04.969 your... perception of yourself and of your friends 01:07:04.969 --> 01:07:08.309 and family and society is limited by your senses. 01:07:08.409 --> 01:07:11.329 Like you don't see yourself, you don't hear yourself, 01:07:11.389 --> 01:07:15.329 you don't feel yourself as part of a species 01:07:15.329 --> 01:07:20.510 on a planet, right? So in those circumstances, 01:07:20.610 --> 01:07:24.429 I think that appealing to perhaps a more direct 01:07:24.429 --> 01:07:26.909 relationship with something that we all have 01:07:26.909 --> 01:07:32.710 a connection to, which is animals, right? And 01:07:32.710 --> 01:07:40.809 it's on the surface is more, perhaps more conducive 01:07:40.809 --> 01:07:44.289 to behavioral changes, to attitudinal changes, 01:07:44.369 --> 01:07:47.150 you know, changes in behavior, like perhaps more 01:07:47.150 --> 01:07:51.530 ecological consciousness. But it is also true 01:07:51.530 --> 01:07:55.409 that most people, and you and I know this very 01:07:55.409 --> 01:07:58.510 well, right? Most people don't truly comprehend 01:07:58.510 --> 01:08:02.670 that their stake is or was a living being, right? 01:08:02.670 --> 01:08:05.469 Because there is that same kind of distance between 01:08:05.469 --> 01:08:08.849 the living being and that food on your plate, 01:08:09.750 --> 01:08:13.230 right? So it's a similar situation. Obviously 01:08:13.230 --> 01:08:15.530 there are some differences, right? But because 01:08:15.530 --> 01:08:18.270 there is that distance, that dissociation still 01:08:18.270 --> 01:08:21.789 there to some extent, right? I do agree that 01:08:21.789 --> 01:08:27.369 Goodall has always... put the welfare of animals 01:08:27.369 --> 01:08:30.770 first and foremost, right? And I think something 01:08:30.770 --> 01:08:33.409 that you might have, I think you mentioned this 01:08:33.409 --> 01:08:35.409 in your podcast, right? That she actually talked 01:08:35.409 --> 01:08:38.710 about how, you know, chimps were not even her 01:08:38.710 --> 01:08:41.050 favorite animal, right? Because chimps were too 01:08:41.050 --> 01:08:43.390 much like people. Chimps were violent, you know, 01:08:43.390 --> 01:08:46.970 they were aggressive, unpleasant creatures. Actually, 01:08:46.970 --> 01:08:50.710 her favorite animals is the dog or was the dog, 01:08:50.750 --> 01:09:01.399 right? So, I think that the fact that her entire 01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:04.260 career revolved around protecting that creature 01:09:04.260 --> 01:09:09.079 that she didn't even particularly like is perhaps 01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:12.060 more inspirational, right? And it's a better 01:09:12.060 --> 01:09:13.979 way of getting people to think about their own 01:09:13.979 --> 01:09:16.039 relationship with animals that perhaps they don't 01:09:16.039 --> 01:09:20.859 like, but that they can recognize as sentient 01:09:20.859 --> 01:09:23.539 beings, right? As creatures that... think and 01:09:23.539 --> 01:09:27.439 feel and have relationships, right? Unfortunately, 01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:31.979 I think that that may in itself, that may not 01:09:31.979 --> 01:09:34.560 lead to change, right? Because again, you can 01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:36.760 have that sort of understanding about the squirrel 01:09:36.760 --> 01:09:39.779 in the park, right? Or perhaps the cat on your 01:09:39.779 --> 01:09:42.619 couch. But because there's that distance between 01:09:42.619 --> 01:09:45.100 the food that you buy in the supermarket and 01:09:45.100 --> 01:09:48.899 the animal that it used to be, that may still 01:09:48.899 --> 01:09:52.189 be kind of disconnect, right? You may still not 01:09:52.189 --> 01:09:55.649 see that as an animal that is worthy of, you 01:09:55.649 --> 01:09:59.770 know, your kindness, of your respect. I don't 01:09:59.770 --> 01:10:03.310 know. I think there's, you know, pros and cons 01:10:03.310 --> 01:10:06.310 to both approaches. I do think that the prospect 01:10:06.310 --> 01:10:08.930 of global citizenship appeals to a lot of people. 01:10:10.109 --> 01:10:13.350 I think especially here in Alberta, for example, 01:10:13.409 --> 01:10:16.619 I see I see lots of my students are more receptive 01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:19.119 to that idea than to the idea of not eating meat. 01:10:20.300 --> 01:10:23.020 So, you know, I think it'll depend on the cultural 01:10:23.020 --> 01:10:25.659 context, but I think there's definitely pros 01:10:25.659 --> 01:10:31.500 and cons to both. Interesting. Let me ask you 01:10:31.500 --> 01:10:36.659 kind of a weird question. I love those. What 01:10:36.659 --> 01:10:41.279 do you think? Well, wait until you hear it. What 01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:46.420 do you think is the perception or was the perception 01:10:46.420 --> 01:10:52.420 of Jane Goodles and David Attenborough of their 01:10:52.420 --> 01:10:57.920 fellow human beings. Because, you know, in both 01:10:57.920 --> 01:11:04.279 documentaries, humanity is not portrayed in the 01:11:04.279 --> 01:11:09.600 best of light, although more so, I think, with 01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:18.060 the Hope documentary. But, you know, it's something 01:11:18.060 --> 01:11:22.000 I wonder, you know, do they love their fellow 01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:25.239 human beings? Are they getting a bit misanthropic, 01:11:25.260 --> 01:11:31.239 maybe? Yeah, you know, I think that, you know, 01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:36.539 we're speculating here, right? I think both of 01:11:36.539 --> 01:11:42.319 them understand people. I don't know about love. 01:11:42.489 --> 01:11:47.710 I don't know about respect, with Goodel specifically, 01:11:47.930 --> 01:11:52.869 right? You can infer that she has a certain distaste 01:11:52.869 --> 01:11:55.609 for some human characteristics, right? And you 01:11:55.609 --> 01:11:58.310 can infer this because, again, she'll say something 01:11:58.310 --> 01:12:00.689 like, oh, yeah, chimps can be very unpleasant 01:12:00.689 --> 01:12:04.029 creatures because they do this and this and that. 01:12:04.670 --> 01:12:07.369 And so they're actually very similar to us, right? 01:12:07.590 --> 01:12:10.260 The implication there. the implication there 01:12:10.260 --> 01:12:12.960 being that she thinks that those are unpleasant 01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:16.659 characteristics that people possess, right? And 01:12:16.659 --> 01:12:21.159 so we can sort of infer that at the very least 01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:25.220 she understands that people like chimps, our 01:12:25.220 --> 01:12:30.260 closest cousins, right? We have some evolutionary 01:12:30.260 --> 01:12:33.439 baggage, right? That we have some tendencies 01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:38.109 that make us unpleasant. We're not the kindest 01:12:38.109 --> 01:12:42.989 creatures out there, because we are apes that 01:12:42.989 --> 01:12:45.670 form hierarchical societies, and that hierarchy 01:12:45.670 --> 01:12:52.130 is determined violently. Adam Moro, likewise, 01:12:52.310 --> 01:12:56.270 he doesn't really talk. You've already put it. 01:12:56.270 --> 01:12:59.050 beautifully right he talks in the abstract a 01:12:59.050 --> 01:13:01.569 little more right he talks in terms of ecology 01:13:01.569 --> 01:13:05.810 and the planet and humanity right so he doesn't 01:13:05.810 --> 01:13:08.409 deal with the individual as much as good old 01:13:08.409 --> 01:13:12.170 does right good old talks a lot about her personalities 01:13:12.170 --> 01:13:15.710 right the personalities of certain apes the personalities 01:13:15.710 --> 01:13:18.729 of certain animals and thus she understands that 01:13:18.729 --> 01:13:21.989 people too have different personalities likes 01:13:21.989 --> 01:13:24.960 and feelings right Adamor doesn't really talk 01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:26.739 about that much, so I think we're speculating 01:13:26.739 --> 01:13:29.439 even further, but I think one thing that I take 01:13:29.439 --> 01:13:32.819 away from the few times that he's spoken politically, 01:13:33.939 --> 01:13:35.939 such as this documentary that we've been discussing, 01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:39.960 but also other interviews, right? I think he 01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:49.220 understands that people have, for lack of a better 01:13:49.220 --> 01:13:51.600 understanding, that people have other concerns. 01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:55.939 that people are interested in the natural world, 01:13:56.460 --> 01:14:00.359 but only in a passing way. And so he's trying 01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:03.939 to get us to think more about it. I remember 01:14:03.939 --> 01:14:10.260 this one quote. He once said that people have 01:14:10.260 --> 01:14:13.159 the uncanny ability to change the environment 01:14:13.159 --> 01:14:17.300 for the benefit of their population, but that 01:14:17.300 --> 01:14:20.739 perhaps it's time for us to change the population 01:14:21.310 --> 01:14:24.329 to the benefit of the environment, suggesting 01:14:24.329 --> 01:14:27.310 that fewer people would be better for Earth, 01:14:27.470 --> 01:14:31.729 right? And so some people think that that sort 01:14:31.729 --> 01:14:33.890 of position is misanthropic, right? That you 01:14:33.890 --> 01:14:36.470 want fewer people on Earth, that means you don't 01:14:36.470 --> 01:14:38.710 like people. But I think because he thinks in 01:14:38.710 --> 01:14:41.050 the abstract, he thinks in terms, or at least 01:14:41.050 --> 01:14:44.890 he usually talks in terms of these broader ecological 01:14:44.890 --> 01:14:48.760 concepts. he also kind of sees people that way. 01:14:49.380 --> 01:14:51.619 As a whole, we have these tendencies that we 01:14:51.619 --> 01:14:55.359 need to change. And so that would mean a smaller 01:14:55.359 --> 01:14:57.760 population, a plant -based diet. But perhaps 01:14:57.760 --> 01:14:59.479 he doesn't really think too much, or at least 01:14:59.479 --> 01:15:03.220 he doesn't talk too much about how individuals 01:15:03.220 --> 01:15:09.260 perceive these ideas. So again, perhaps not misanthropic, 01:15:09.300 --> 01:15:14.880 but definitely I do think there is some At least 01:15:14.880 --> 01:15:18.319 again, based on what I see, I think there is 01:15:18.319 --> 01:15:21.819 a disconnect between how he thinks about the 01:15:21.819 --> 01:15:26.020 world and what people's experience is. Yeah, 01:15:26.060 --> 01:15:30.220 and again, I think with Jane Goodall, again, 01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:32.619 misanthropy, perhaps not the best term, but I 01:15:32.619 --> 01:15:35.520 do think she's well aware of the fact that as 01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:40.859 a species, we have some issues. You're right 01:15:40.859 --> 01:15:48.399 to raise the... the topic of reducing the number 01:15:48.399 --> 01:15:53.819 of humans on the planet. I think if they are 01:15:53.819 --> 01:15:57.819 misentropic, or let me put it this way, I think 01:15:57.819 --> 01:16:05.560 their most misentropic episodes are when they 01:16:05.789 --> 01:16:09.270 talk about that, about reducing human populations. 01:16:10.529 --> 01:16:13.369 Now, Jane Goodall doesn't talk about it in her 01:16:13.369 --> 01:16:17.630 documentary, or at least maybe I missed it, but 01:16:17.630 --> 01:16:22.149 I did hear her in an interview say something 01:16:22.149 --> 01:16:27.550 of the sort of, if we could reduce the human 01:16:27.550 --> 01:16:31.939 population, like drastically, but in the most 01:16:31.939 --> 01:16:35.439 humane way, like make people disappear with the 01:16:35.439 --> 01:16:41.760 magic wand. I would be for that. And I think 01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:47.399 that for, you know, someone from the public hearing 01:16:47.399 --> 01:16:52.199 that feels a bit, you know, crazy and also scary. 01:16:52.859 --> 01:16:59.050 Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's one idea that That 01:16:59.050 --> 01:17:01.590 is, you know, again, another one of these controversial 01:17:01.590 --> 01:17:04.149 measures, right? And again, it's telling that 01:17:04.149 --> 01:17:06.569 Adam Borough does not shy away from this one, 01:17:06.909 --> 01:17:09.350 but he does shy away from things like nuclear 01:17:09.350 --> 01:17:11.890 power. And again, for the longest time, he shied 01:17:11.890 --> 01:17:15.270 away from veganism, right? So imagine that veganism 01:17:15.270 --> 01:17:18.850 and nuclear power are somehow worse than, you 01:17:18.850 --> 01:17:22.430 know, the desire for fewer people. But anyway. 01:17:23.960 --> 01:17:26.979 But yeah, like, you know the population the question 01:17:26.979 --> 01:17:29.439 of the population the global population is is 01:17:29.439 --> 01:17:33.000 is is controversial it always has been If you 01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:35.979 don't know the history of the club of Rome, you 01:17:35.979 --> 01:17:38.039 may want to look it up They were the first sort 01:17:38.039 --> 01:17:41.720 of like a group of intellectuals to propose our 01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:44.140 reduction in the human population like an intentional 01:17:44.140 --> 01:17:46.140 reduction of the human population and then they 01:17:46.140 --> 01:17:48.079 were hugely controversial at the time and they 01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:53.260 remain so their ideas remain so and and I you 01:17:53.260 --> 01:17:58.649 know Ironically, even as we debate the merits 01:17:58.649 --> 01:18:02.130 of lowering the number of people on Earth, and 01:18:02.130 --> 01:18:06.390 even as people, even here in academia, I always 01:18:06.390 --> 01:18:11.489 think about what I read, the stuff that other 01:18:11.489 --> 01:18:14.810 authors who are far more prominent than I'll 01:18:14.810 --> 01:18:16.810 probably ever be have said about things like 01:18:16.810 --> 01:18:19.510 population. And one of the questions that they 01:18:19.510 --> 01:18:22.939 ask is, well, who exactly which is sacrifice, 01:18:23.100 --> 01:18:26.300 right? Because one of the theories about the 01:18:26.300 --> 01:18:29.220 discourse of our population is that it's covert 01:18:29.220 --> 01:18:31.619 racism, right? That it's basically saying we 01:18:31.619 --> 01:18:34.319 need to stop all these people from the third 01:18:34.319 --> 01:18:38.140 world from reproducing, right? And I think in 01:18:38.140 --> 01:18:41.579 some cases, it certainly sounds that way, right? 01:18:42.500 --> 01:18:44.960 And so perhaps there are some ideological issues 01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:46.800 that we need to be aware of when talking about, 01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:50.140 well, OK, let's reduce the population. Whose 01:18:50.140 --> 01:18:52.720 population exactly would you start with and why, 01:18:52.819 --> 01:18:57.060 right? But even as we're talking about this and 01:18:57.060 --> 01:19:00.779 even as most people still kind of feel some sort 01:19:00.779 --> 01:19:03.079 of resistance against or push back against the 01:19:03.079 --> 01:19:05.680 idea, it's happening already. I don't know if 01:19:05.680 --> 01:19:07.159 you are aware of this. This is a conversation 01:19:07.159 --> 01:19:10.239 that this is something that I follow almost as 01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:14.319 a hobby. It started about a decade ago, because 01:19:14.319 --> 01:19:16.779 I was curious about this one report that I read 01:19:16.779 --> 01:19:19.340 coming out of the UN, and I've been following 01:19:19.340 --> 01:19:22.619 it ever since. And so that original report basically 01:19:22.619 --> 01:19:25.560 said that growth projections for the global South, 01:19:25.779 --> 01:19:30.319 so Latin America, Africa, South Asia, certain 01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:33.840 parts of Southeast Asia, that they had been way 01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:38.020 overestimated, and that the growth was actually 01:19:38.020 --> 01:19:40.460 going to be far slower than they had anticipated. 01:19:40.859 --> 01:19:44.439 Okay, this was 10 years ago. From then until 01:19:44.439 --> 01:19:50.100 now, that same projection, that same revision 01:19:50.100 --> 01:19:53.760 has accelerated. So about four years ago or five 01:19:53.760 --> 01:19:56.460 years ago, the UN put out another report that 01:19:56.460 --> 01:20:01.060 basically said, actually, it looks like we're 01:20:01.060 --> 01:20:03.699 heading towards a peak in population because 01:20:03.699 --> 01:20:05.840 population growth in Africa and all these places 01:20:05.840 --> 01:20:09.409 is... decelerating to the extent that it's actually 01:20:09.409 --> 01:20:12.369 going to flatten, it's going to plateau. And 01:20:12.369 --> 01:20:14.470 so they projected a peak population of about 01:20:14.470 --> 01:20:21.010 14 billion people by the year 2100. And then 01:20:21.010 --> 01:20:23.529 two years ago, another one, and they said, actually, 01:20:24.670 --> 01:20:27.109 again, we way overestimated the growth of the 01:20:27.109 --> 01:20:29.350 Global South, and now it looks like we're gonna 01:20:29.350 --> 01:20:33.970 peak at around 10 billion by 2080. And the latest 01:20:33.970 --> 01:20:36.329 report, which was released earlier this year, 01:20:37.189 --> 01:20:40.270 again, revised it, continued the trend, and now 01:20:40.270 --> 01:20:42.670 there is a strong possibility that the population 01:20:42.670 --> 01:20:47.310 will peak at around 9, between 9 and 10 billion, 01:20:47.689 --> 01:20:51.529 but in 2050. Again, it's just a strong possibility, 01:20:52.149 --> 01:20:56.010 nothing's certain. But after that, we see a population 01:20:56.010 --> 01:20:58.470 decline. When we're talking about peaks, we talk 01:20:58.470 --> 01:21:00.310 about the highest point, and then it declines. 01:21:01.210 --> 01:21:04.869 So now we're heading towards an almost certain 01:21:04.869 --> 01:21:07.760 reduction in the population. for the first time 01:21:07.760 --> 01:21:11.159 at some point in this century. So the population 01:21:11.159 --> 01:21:14.300 is now almost certainly going to start going 01:21:14.300 --> 01:21:16.939 down at some point this century. And people are 01:21:16.939 --> 01:21:19.180 talking about it everywhere. People are talking 01:21:19.180 --> 01:21:23.239 about how nobody's having kids anymore. Nobody 01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:25.779 can afford to have kids anymore because everything 01:21:25.779 --> 01:21:29.619 is so expensive now. And my theory, my hypothesis 01:21:29.619 --> 01:21:31.380 is that this is all a reflection of the fact 01:21:31.380 --> 01:21:37.369 that the system in which we now live cannot, 01:21:37.369 --> 01:21:40.810 can no longer sustain growth, right? And of course 01:21:40.810 --> 01:21:43.729 it makes sense because as both Goodall and Atomboro 01:21:43.729 --> 01:21:49.489 have talked about, a finite planet cannot support 01:21:49.489 --> 01:21:54.810 indefinite growth, right? We live on this kind 01:21:54.810 --> 01:21:58.909 of rock that is a spaceship and it's limited, 01:21:58.970 --> 01:22:01.970 right? And so we cannot keep on growing indefinitely 01:22:01.970 --> 01:22:04.449 and it looks like we may be reaching the limits 01:22:04.449 --> 01:22:07.739 of growth. under the system that we live in. 01:22:08.479 --> 01:22:10.920 So, you know, population reduction is not something 01:22:10.920 --> 01:22:13.659 people want to hear. A lot of people are terrified 01:22:13.659 --> 01:22:16.640 of it. But now it looks like an almost certain 01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:20.899 thing. So, you know, it's worth thinking about. 01:22:21.119 --> 01:22:25.460 Talking about racism, there is a point I wanted 01:22:25.460 --> 01:22:30.359 to raise concerning native populations. And so 01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:37.409 in the David Attenborough documentary, they present 01:22:37.409 --> 01:22:42.449 a native tribe and they describe them as the 01:22:42.449 --> 01:22:49.289 ideal, sustainably living lifestyle. And that 01:22:49.289 --> 01:22:53.090 made me a bit uncomfortable because it reminded 01:22:53.090 --> 01:22:58.390 me of the, the noble Indian trope. You know, 01:22:59.090 --> 01:23:04.560 you had so many Europeans. thinking, writing, 01:23:04.859 --> 01:23:09.560 talking about the American Indian as this ideal 01:23:09.560 --> 01:23:14.079 of freedom and of such a wonderful, you know, 01:23:14.199 --> 01:23:19.859 lifestyle. And I also don't know if this is truly 01:23:19.859 --> 01:23:24.560 rooted in reality. There have been theories that 01:23:24.560 --> 01:23:27.800 native populations have caused the extinction 01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:30.899 of megafauna in Australia, but also in North 01:23:30.899 --> 01:23:35.199 America. What do you make of that trope that, 01:23:35.199 --> 01:23:42.260 you know, the native people were so in such harmony 01:23:42.260 --> 01:23:46.720 with nature and were like the ideal, the model 01:23:46.720 --> 01:23:51.319 of living an environmentally friendly lifestyle? 01:23:51.979 --> 01:23:53.819 Yeah, you know, that's, that's a good point, 01:23:53.819 --> 01:23:59.199 right? Um, it, it ties in quite a bit with, with 01:23:59.199 --> 01:24:01.750 the question about questions about population 01:24:01.750 --> 01:24:05.550 and like whose population would have to uh you 01:24:05.550 --> 01:24:09.069 know decelerate and grow and and and you know 01:24:09.069 --> 01:24:11.810 some some some presumed racial implications of 01:24:11.810 --> 01:24:15.090 those questions but in regards to what happens 01:24:15.090 --> 01:24:18.789 in a life uh on our planet and the David Attenborough 01:24:18.789 --> 01:24:21.989 documentary and again we should contrast how 01:24:21.989 --> 01:24:26.439 similar ideas are represented in both films, 01:24:27.060 --> 01:24:28.939 The Hope and A Life on Our Planet, because it's 01:24:28.939 --> 01:24:30.399 done differently, but let's stick to Atomboro 01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:32.859 first. So again, right, I would take us back 01:24:32.859 --> 01:24:35.420 to the beginning of Atomboro's career. So part 01:24:35.420 --> 01:24:41.659 of his body of work includes a number of very 01:24:41.659 --> 01:24:47.319 early films that were what you call ethnographies, 01:24:47.399 --> 01:24:51.479 right? So these are films in which Atomboro or 01:24:51.479 --> 01:24:56.189 otherwise a group of ethnographers alongside 01:24:56.189 --> 01:24:58.970 a film crew, usually again, right, financed by 01:24:58.970 --> 01:25:04.369 the BBC or another public broadcasting corporation, 01:25:04.689 --> 01:25:09.409 they would go to these exotic places to document 01:25:09.409 --> 01:25:12.189 dying cultures, right, like what we're understood 01:25:12.189 --> 01:25:15.869 to be dying cultures. And so they would record, 01:25:15.869 --> 01:25:18.229 you know, their practices and their habits and 01:25:18.229 --> 01:25:25.270 all that. And even then, right? Or perhaps more 01:25:25.270 --> 01:25:27.729 so than today you could see what you're talking 01:25:27.729 --> 01:25:32.229 about, right? You could see this back then a 01:25:32.229 --> 01:25:37.229 lot more explicit but today implicit supposition 01:25:37.229 --> 01:25:42.210 of Indigenous peoples as somehow more in tune 01:25:42.210 --> 01:25:47.029 with nature. Now I think, you know, the first 01:25:47.029 --> 01:25:49.829 part of your question was to what extent is this 01:25:49.829 --> 01:25:52.109 true or accurate, like historically accurate, 01:25:52.170 --> 01:25:57.710 right? And I would say that, you know, if you 01:25:57.710 --> 01:26:02.890 compare the environmental impact of any other 01:26:02.890 --> 01:26:06.710 society to contemporary Western societies, well, 01:26:06.729 --> 01:26:10.189 of course, like most other societies were vastly 01:26:10.189 --> 01:26:13.270 more sustainable than, you know, Western late 01:26:13.270 --> 01:26:16.350 capitalist industrial societies, societies, right? 01:26:16.569 --> 01:26:19.890 So I think, you know, but in that sense, it is 01:26:19.890 --> 01:26:24.470 undeniable that those tribes or those societies 01:26:24.470 --> 01:26:28.270 and other places, both contemporary and historically, 01:26:28.789 --> 01:26:32.090 were far more sustainable than ours. Now, the 01:26:32.090 --> 01:26:34.989 question is, does that make them an ideal model, 01:26:34.989 --> 01:26:39.930 right? And I would say no. So first off, you 01:26:39.930 --> 01:26:41.670 mentioned, for instance, in the case of North 01:26:41.670 --> 01:26:44.029 America, and you know, this is something that 01:26:44.029 --> 01:26:47.310 I could potentially get in trouble for, but I'm 01:26:47.310 --> 01:26:50.430 happy to speak openly about it because I actually 01:26:50.430 --> 01:26:53.090 do raise the point whenever the opportunity arises, 01:26:53.489 --> 01:26:59.409 which is that nowadays, and because of, I think, 01:27:00.050 --> 01:27:04.149 as a result of the renewed oppression against 01:27:04.149 --> 01:27:06.750 Indigenous peoples here in North America and 01:27:06.750 --> 01:27:10.390 elsewhere around the world, right, there has 01:27:10.390 --> 01:27:13.869 been this sort of impetus to foreground this 01:27:16.210 --> 01:27:20.250 their traditions, their cultures, as you said, 01:27:20.510 --> 01:27:22.829 right? More environmentally sustainable, more 01:27:22.829 --> 01:27:27.909 ethical, matrilineal as opposed to patriarchal, 01:27:28.010 --> 01:27:30.909 right? About community, I suppose about the individual. 01:27:31.010 --> 01:27:34.970 And in some cases, that is true in one way or 01:27:34.970 --> 01:27:38.130 another, but speaking specifically about sustainability, 01:27:38.369 --> 01:27:42.850 right? I think I was just actually reading our 01:27:42.850 --> 01:27:45.630 report about this recently, about the extinction 01:27:45.630 --> 01:27:49.149 of megafauna in North America, because that was 01:27:49.149 --> 01:27:51.630 a contentious issue for the longest time. What 01:27:51.630 --> 01:27:55.210 drove the mammoth, and the North American camels, 01:27:55.569 --> 01:27:58.109 and the giant sloths, and all of these other 01:27:58.109 --> 01:28:00.529 creatures that used to thrive here in North America, 01:28:00.770 --> 01:28:03.310 and actually also in South America, what drove 01:28:03.310 --> 01:28:08.109 them extinct? The two prevailing theories were 01:28:08.270 --> 01:28:11.010 uh, the overkill theory, which is that, well, 01:28:11.010 --> 01:28:13.670 you know, humans arrived in North America roughly 01:28:13.670 --> 01:28:18.810 the same time as, um, these creatures, uh, disappearance, 01:28:18.810 --> 01:28:20.789 right? And so they disappear around the time 01:28:20.789 --> 01:28:23.130 when people show up. And so that's, that's like 01:28:23.130 --> 01:28:25.270 a bit of a coincidence. The other one being, 01:28:25.310 --> 01:28:27.550 you know, just some sort of climate change either 01:28:27.550 --> 01:28:31.109 because of, um, the, the most recent proposition 01:28:31.109 --> 01:28:34.590 was that abrupt climate change is a result of 01:28:34.590 --> 01:28:37.359 some kind of extraterrestrial impact, right? 01:28:37.359 --> 01:28:39.939 To some asteroid or comet or whatever. And there 01:28:39.939 --> 01:28:41.920 seems to be some evidence to support that there 01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:44.979 was an impact at around that time as well. But 01:28:44.979 --> 01:28:47.979 it doesn't seem to be enough to take out the 01:28:47.979 --> 01:28:50.960 latest report that I read in regards to this 01:28:50.960 --> 01:28:53.039 idea that perhaps it was some sort of abrupt 01:28:53.039 --> 01:28:55.300 climate change as a result of some sort of impact, 01:28:55.420 --> 01:28:58.680 right? The evidence is not there. If there was 01:28:58.680 --> 01:29:01.199 an impact, it was relatively small and it wouldn't 01:29:01.199 --> 01:29:05.329 make sense that it only affected certain parts 01:29:05.329 --> 01:29:07.630 of the world and not the entire world. So it 01:29:07.630 --> 01:29:10.109 does seem as if at least to some extent to the 01:29:10.109 --> 01:29:13.109 arrival of humans into what is now North America 01:29:13.109 --> 01:29:16.649 was the cause of their extinction, which tells 01:29:16.649 --> 01:29:22.470 us that even if later descendants of these people 01:29:22.470 --> 01:29:24.729 became perhaps more environmentally sustainable, 01:29:25.229 --> 01:29:28.210 that wasn't always the case. At some point, they 01:29:28.210 --> 01:29:33.189 most definitely had a severe impact on their 01:29:33.930 --> 01:29:37.729 ecology. And actually, one of the most compelling 01:29:37.729 --> 01:29:40.489 arguments I've heard about this is that, as you 01:29:40.489 --> 01:29:42.390 mentioned, this is not a North American phenomenon, 01:29:42.569 --> 01:29:44.510 right? It also happened in Australia. But as 01:29:44.510 --> 01:29:46.350 I was saying, it also seems to have happened 01:29:46.350 --> 01:29:50.590 in South America. It seems to have happened in 01:29:50.590 --> 01:29:52.829 Europe, right? Where the mammoth also went extinct 01:29:52.829 --> 01:29:55.149 and the animals that fed upon animals like that, 01:29:55.390 --> 01:29:57.409 like the saber tooth tigers and cave lions also 01:29:57.409 --> 01:29:59.750 went extinct. And it seems to have happened in 01:29:59.750 --> 01:30:04.449 Asia. with similar species, right? Again, mammoths, 01:30:05.430 --> 01:30:07.789 woolly rhinos, saber -toothed tigers, all of 01:30:07.789 --> 01:30:11.569 these animals go extinct. And their extinction 01:30:11.569 --> 01:30:14.029 seems to more or less coincide with the arrival 01:30:14.029 --> 01:30:18.229 of people. But I think the most compelling piece 01:30:18.229 --> 01:30:20.109 of evidence or the most compelling argument that 01:30:20.109 --> 01:30:22.810 I've heard that supports the idea that wherever 01:30:22.810 --> 01:30:27.449 people went, extinctions followed, right? Is 01:30:27.449 --> 01:30:30.250 that the one continent where this didn't happen, 01:30:30.380 --> 01:30:34.920 was Africa, where we evolved. So it seems to 01:30:34.920 --> 01:30:38.819 me that those animals were able to continue their 01:30:38.819 --> 01:30:42.000 existence because they evolved with us alongside 01:30:42.000 --> 01:30:44.859 people. And so they knew what people wear. They 01:30:44.859 --> 01:30:48.579 knew to beware of the upright monkey with a spear, 01:30:49.100 --> 01:30:51.539 whereas other animals didn't. And so they went 01:30:51.539 --> 01:30:57.220 extinct. So anyway, so that is one thing. But 01:30:57.220 --> 01:31:00.399 as I was saying, even if that is true, the possibility 01:31:00.399 --> 01:31:04.319 does exist. And in fact, it is demonstrable that 01:31:04.319 --> 01:31:08.420 their descendants lived in greater ecological 01:31:08.420 --> 01:31:13.520 balance than us. So that a tribe in North America 01:31:13.520 --> 01:31:17.979 or in Australia or in Southeast Asia typically 01:31:17.979 --> 01:31:23.159 didn't overrun its environment the way that contemporary 01:31:23.159 --> 01:31:27.369 Western societies do. The example that you cite 01:31:27.369 --> 01:31:30.710 from the movie, from David Attenborough's documentary, 01:31:31.170 --> 01:31:34.250 right? He specifically refers to a tribe from 01:31:34.250 --> 01:31:39.149 Papua New Guinea. Now, what, again, right? You 01:31:39.149 --> 01:31:41.189 have to think about what is included and what 01:31:41.189 --> 01:31:43.010 is being left out. And you've already talked 01:31:43.010 --> 01:31:45.470 about this in relation to like how by talking 01:31:45.470 --> 01:31:49.409 about a number of, as you put it, Ecology 101, 01:31:49.649 --> 01:31:52.590 right? By introducing all of these talking points. 01:31:52.890 --> 01:31:55.550 you leave a lot of the context out, right? And 01:31:55.550 --> 01:31:57.630 so one of the things that is being left out when 01:31:57.630 --> 01:31:59.729 they talk about a tribe in Papua New Guinea, 01:31:59.909 --> 01:32:03.670 not overrunning its environment and not consuming 01:32:03.670 --> 01:32:07.130 more than the environment can provide. Well, 01:32:07.170 --> 01:32:10.390 it is also true that other factors that perhaps 01:32:10.390 --> 01:32:14.850 we don't think are desirable, right, play into 01:32:14.850 --> 01:32:18.819 this dynamic. So for instance, the average lifespan 01:32:18.819 --> 01:32:22.000 of a tribe span in Papua New Guinea is significantly 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:24.239 shorter than ours, right? And that's not just 01:32:24.239 --> 01:32:28.140 because they live out in the elements, but also 01:32:28.140 --> 01:32:29.880 because they don't have access to medicines. 01:32:30.060 --> 01:32:34.479 Their diets are considerably poor, right? In 01:32:34.479 --> 01:32:36.159 the sense that there's less variety, there's 01:32:36.159 --> 01:32:39.000 a certainty. And so occasionally they do suffer 01:32:39.000 --> 01:32:43.399 from emancipation and starvation, right? Children 01:32:43.399 --> 01:32:45.840 die of illnesses all the time still in those 01:32:45.840 --> 01:32:49.109 places. not to mention inter -tribal conflicts, 01:32:49.529 --> 01:32:51.409 which again, it's not to say that they have it 01:32:51.409 --> 01:32:54.390 and we don't. Obviously, we fight amongst ourselves 01:32:54.390 --> 01:32:57.949 all the time. There's countless Western or modern 01:32:57.949 --> 01:33:00.050 wars happening around the world right now. But 01:33:00.050 --> 01:33:02.609 when your populations are considerably smaller, 01:33:03.369 --> 01:33:08.989 or rather when your society is not based around 01:33:08.989 --> 01:33:13.949 perpetual growth, there are other factors that 01:33:14.079 --> 01:33:17.939 that play in and allow for that sort of set of 01:33:17.939 --> 01:33:19.899 relations to continue. And in this case, we have 01:33:19.899 --> 01:33:22.600 to consider whether, okay, well, the reason why, 01:33:22.840 --> 01:33:24.640 if the reason why, or one of the reasons why 01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:28.720 people in what we consider, quote unquote, primitive 01:33:28.720 --> 01:33:33.640 societies, manage to strike a balance with the 01:33:33.640 --> 01:33:36.319 natural world. One of those reasons is that they 01:33:36.319 --> 01:33:39.439 don't have access to medicine. And so their population 01:33:39.439 --> 01:33:41.739 is limited by illnesses, for example, right? 01:33:42.849 --> 01:33:45.170 then perhaps we want to consider whether they 01:33:45.170 --> 01:33:48.829 are a good model in all regards, right? Not that 01:33:48.829 --> 01:33:51.710 they aren't in at least some of those, but that 01:33:51.710 --> 01:33:54.510 context or that sort of model is not going to 01:33:54.510 --> 01:33:57.329 be applicable to contemporary societies because 01:33:57.329 --> 01:33:59.989 we expect other things from life, right? And 01:33:59.989 --> 01:34:02.210 I think that raises a number of other questions. 01:34:03.270 --> 01:34:07.510 So yeah, I do think that there is this tendency 01:34:07.510 --> 01:34:13.439 once again to uphold these societies that are 01:34:13.439 --> 01:34:16.220 still not Western, that are still not quote unquote 01:34:16.220 --> 01:34:20.439 modern as we call ourselves, right? And kind 01:34:20.439 --> 01:34:23.560 of like put them on a pedestal and think or talk 01:34:23.560 --> 01:34:26.560 about them as if they were models for us to follow. 01:34:26.600 --> 01:34:29.439 And I think in some regards perhaps that is true, 01:34:30.000 --> 01:34:31.840 but in other regards it's not, right? And so 01:34:31.840 --> 01:34:37.939 again, having access to the full context and 01:34:37.939 --> 01:34:41.460 not just bits and parts is important, right? 01:34:42.199 --> 01:34:44.960 So, and you know, just to briefly return to the 01:34:44.960 --> 01:34:46.680 difference between the two documentaries and 01:34:46.680 --> 01:34:49.460 the hope, again, right? Goodell also travels 01:34:49.460 --> 01:34:51.640 to exotic locations, right? What we would refer 01:34:51.640 --> 01:34:55.619 to as exotic locations. But I think, again, there 01:34:55.619 --> 01:34:58.560 is this sort of emphasis on the fact that even 01:34:58.560 --> 01:35:01.220 people in those societies recognize the need 01:35:01.220 --> 01:35:04.739 for change, right? And I think that's something 01:35:04.739 --> 01:35:08.020 that is perhaps a little more productive in the 01:35:08.020 --> 01:35:10.000 sense that rather than thinking about how we're 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:13.369 different, it encourages to think about how, 01:35:13.430 --> 01:35:15.090 okay, yeah, perhaps there are some differences, 01:35:15.170 --> 01:35:18.390 but we're all in the same boat. And they are 01:35:18.390 --> 01:35:20.569 recognized despite their remoteness and despite 01:35:20.569 --> 01:35:23.470 the fact that perhaps their beliefs are different 01:35:23.470 --> 01:35:25.829 from ours, right? They recognize the need for 01:35:25.829 --> 01:35:29.710 change on a grander scale. And so I think perhaps 01:35:29.710 --> 01:35:34.689 that's sort of like more relational understanding 01:35:34.689 --> 01:35:39.170 of people from societies that are different from 01:35:39.170 --> 01:35:47.909 ours is Yes, there's something strange about 01:35:47.909 --> 01:35:54.869 how we fantasize of a world beyond modernity. 01:35:55.489 --> 01:35:59.390 So, you know, freed from modernity, where we 01:35:59.390 --> 01:36:02.630 could be one of those, you know, so -called primitive 01:36:02.630 --> 01:36:07.630 tribe part of that. But at the same time, we 01:36:07.630 --> 01:36:11.649 are scared of that prospect. Um, you know, we 01:36:11.649 --> 01:36:14.710 look at them and we think, you know, this is 01:36:14.710 --> 01:36:18.409 the result of us going through horrible world 01:36:18.409 --> 01:36:22.369 war and, you know, we'll end up with sticks and, 01:36:22.369 --> 01:36:26.550 and yeah, that's, that's how we model, you know, 01:36:27.010 --> 01:36:32.250 um, society's failure. Um, and I want to tie 01:36:32.250 --> 01:36:38.449 this to, um, the apocalyptic message we often 01:36:38.449 --> 01:36:44.010 get from environmentalists. And in the David 01:36:44.010 --> 01:36:47.689 Attenborough documentary, they had this scene, 01:36:48.050 --> 01:36:53.810 they filmed that horrific landscape of burnt, 01:36:55.470 --> 01:37:00.850 just this burnt, you know, trees, burnt forest. 01:37:01.470 --> 01:37:03.930 And then they were in the middle of the burnt 01:37:03.930 --> 01:37:07.590 forest. There were tornadoes. I don't know if 01:37:07.590 --> 01:37:11.609 you remember that. Yeah, I do. I thought it was 01:37:11.609 --> 01:37:15.510 so hilarious. Like, where did you find that footage? 01:37:15.989 --> 01:37:19.510 How did you, you know, film that footage? Where 01:37:19.510 --> 01:37:24.369 is that horrific place? And they showed that 01:37:24.369 --> 01:37:28.239 while talking about our future, you know, if, 01:37:28.520 --> 01:37:31.659 if we continue on this path, this is what awaits 01:37:31.659 --> 01:37:38.960 us, you know, a burnt forest inhabited by tornadoes. 01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:44.720 And, and, you know, this is not efficient. I 01:37:44.720 --> 01:37:47.859 don't know who is in their team, you know, production 01:37:47.859 --> 01:37:52.420 team, but they should know that the first thing 01:37:52.420 --> 01:37:56.770 that The first argument that people bring against 01:37:56.770 --> 01:37:59.989 climate change and believing in the climate crisis 01:37:59.989 --> 01:38:04.649 or doing something is look at the long record 01:38:04.649 --> 01:38:08.449 of failed predictions from environmentalists 01:38:08.449 --> 01:38:11.890 and scientists. They thought we would end up 01:38:11.890 --> 01:38:14.729 in a cold age. They were wrong. They thought 01:38:14.729 --> 01:38:19.859 we were going to... be the victim of a worldwide 01:38:19.859 --> 01:38:23.420 famine. They were wrong. They thought that New 01:38:23.420 --> 01:38:27.659 York would be, you know, underwater. They were 01:38:27.659 --> 01:38:31.539 wrong. And so stop, you know, with the prediction 01:38:31.539 --> 01:38:35.680 business. Just focus on the present, you know, 01:38:35.720 --> 01:38:39.859 and the effect of climate change on our current 01:38:39.859 --> 01:38:44.439 reality. Yeah, I think it's a dangerous business 01:38:44.439 --> 01:38:47.859 to predict the future. Yeah, no, I think you're 01:38:47.859 --> 01:38:52.199 right and I know that You know, I've probably 01:38:52.199 --> 01:38:55.260 committed that mistake today right when talking 01:38:55.260 --> 01:39:00.819 about about the population issue because to a 01:39:00.819 --> 01:39:06.420 lot of people the possibility of the human population 01:39:06.420 --> 01:39:11.779 decreasing as opposed to increasing is an apocalyptic 01:39:11.779 --> 01:39:15.800 premise right they think of films like Children 01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:17.939 of man, for example, right? I don't know if you're 01:39:17.939 --> 01:39:20.220 familiar with it. It was a great film where like, 01:39:20.300 --> 01:39:22.640 you know, it takes place in this dystopian society 01:39:22.640 --> 01:39:25.159 where it's been 20 years since the birth of the 01:39:25.159 --> 01:39:27.279 last person, right? Some sort of pandemic has 01:39:27.279 --> 01:39:30.560 made us all infertile. And so it's been 20, 20 01:39:30.560 --> 01:39:33.020 something years since the last person, or since 01:39:33.020 --> 01:39:35.260 the birth of the last person, or since a birth, 01:39:35.380 --> 01:39:37.960 a human birth, and everybody, like, you know, 01:39:38.079 --> 01:39:39.680 the population's aging, there are no babies. 01:39:39.739 --> 01:39:41.800 And so the prospect of extinction is there, right? 01:39:42.020 --> 01:39:45.640 So a lot of people, when... when people like 01:39:45.640 --> 01:39:49.460 myself talk about population projections and 01:39:49.460 --> 01:39:51.979 the fact that the population seems to not just 01:39:51.979 --> 01:39:54.859 be stabilizing but heading for a peak and then 01:39:54.859 --> 01:39:58.020 decline, that sounds like an apocalyptic premise. 01:39:59.020 --> 01:40:02.000 And it is true that these are just projections. 01:40:02.619 --> 01:40:05.420 Any projection that people make about population 01:40:05.420 --> 01:40:08.119 or climate change or biodiversity loss, which 01:40:08.119 --> 01:40:11.939 is something I'm interested in, they're always 01:40:11.939 --> 01:40:18.470 going to be just highly educated guesses, but 01:40:18.470 --> 01:40:21.449 still guesses in the sense that you never have 01:40:21.449 --> 01:40:24.829 access to all the data, right? And that's not 01:40:24.829 --> 01:40:27.489 just because data collection is limited, which 01:40:27.489 --> 01:40:30.029 it is, right? You cannot possibly collect all 01:40:30.029 --> 01:40:32.409 the data in the world, right? It's that analogy 01:40:32.409 --> 01:40:34.510 of like drawing a map so detailed that you capture 01:40:34.510 --> 01:40:36.010 everything. Could you fit that in the world? 01:40:36.130 --> 01:40:37.729 Well, of course not, right? This could have to 01:40:37.729 --> 01:40:40.369 be the size of the world. Same with data, right? 01:40:40.369 --> 01:40:43.270 You can try to collect as much data as possible, 01:40:43.270 --> 01:40:46.930 but there isn't enough human computational or 01:40:46.930 --> 01:40:49.689 even storage power to actually analyze it all 01:40:49.689 --> 01:40:53.529 and simulate it in a way that will predict things 01:40:53.529 --> 01:40:57.189 that are 100 % certainty, right? So it's impossible, 01:40:57.470 --> 01:40:58.930 like predicting the future is already impossible, 01:40:58.970 --> 01:41:03.310 but it gets even worse when one fails to consider 01:41:03.310 --> 01:41:06.390 the unexpected, right? So for instance, you talked 01:41:06.390 --> 01:41:11.369 about how there were predictions about almost 01:41:11.369 --> 01:41:14.289 certain famine, right? I think I believe these 01:41:14.300 --> 01:41:20.899 that the latest sort of iteration of this particular 01:41:20.899 --> 01:41:24.380 prophecy, so to speak, came about in the 50s. 01:41:24.699 --> 01:41:28.380 And about a decade or two decades later, we have 01:41:28.380 --> 01:41:32.159 the Green Revolution. There's this new sort of 01:41:32.159 --> 01:41:35.779 understanding of how to grow crops in a more 01:41:35.779 --> 01:41:39.779 or less indefinite way. And so suddenly, there's 01:41:39.779 --> 01:41:43.279 more than enough food for everyone. So a technological 01:41:46.480 --> 01:41:49.720 development essentially throws that theory out 01:41:49.720 --> 01:41:51.340 the window, right? It's like, well, now actually 01:41:51.340 --> 01:41:53.180 turns out we're now going to get harm, you know, 01:41:53.180 --> 01:41:54.420 we're not going to starve. In fact, we're going 01:41:54.420 --> 01:41:56.859 to produce more than ever. Okay. Right. There's 01:41:56.859 --> 01:42:00.739 also the story about, um, or the, the, this, 01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:03.079 this prediction that like towards the end of 01:42:03.079 --> 01:42:06.060 last century, when the last, actually now two 01:42:06.060 --> 01:42:07.319 centuries ago, right? Towards the end of the 01:42:07.319 --> 01:42:09.539 19th century, there were so many horses in London 01:42:09.539 --> 01:42:11.760 that people predicted that, you know, within 01:42:11.760 --> 01:42:14.350 20, 30 years, the city was going to be buried. 01:42:14.510 --> 01:42:16.890 And what they didn't predict was the rise of 01:42:16.890 --> 01:42:19.329 the car, the automobile, and how that did away 01:42:19.329 --> 01:42:23.890 with horses. So when I talked about how I am 01:42:23.890 --> 01:42:26.729 skeptical of what I call technosolutionism, this 01:42:26.729 --> 01:42:30.329 idea that technology will offer solutions, I 01:42:30.329 --> 01:42:37.350 have to say that in awareness of the fact that 01:42:37.350 --> 01:42:40.649 in the past, that has been true. A lot of problems 01:42:40.649 --> 01:42:44.149 that we have had in the past have been done away 01:42:44.149 --> 01:42:50.029 with because some sort of technological development 01:42:50.029 --> 01:42:52.590 came about that nobody expected and solved that 01:42:52.590 --> 01:42:55.369 problem. But what is also true is that solving 01:42:55.369 --> 01:42:58.229 one problem with technology has almost always 01:42:58.229 --> 01:43:02.649 resulted in new technological problems or new 01:43:02.649 --> 01:43:05.470 problems as a result of that technology. So to 01:43:05.470 --> 01:43:08.409 go back to the example of the horse and the car, 01:43:08.750 --> 01:43:11.979 well, of course, the use of cars became one of 01:43:11.979 --> 01:43:14.000 the main drivers of what we now call climate 01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:16.819 change, right? So we solved one problem, but 01:43:16.819 --> 01:43:19.560 we created another, which is potentially worse, 01:43:19.560 --> 01:43:23.619 right? Who knows? The same with the Green Revolution, 01:43:23.819 --> 01:43:26.260 right? Suddenly we can produce pretty much as 01:43:26.260 --> 01:43:28.579 much food as possible, right? But what does that 01:43:28.579 --> 01:43:33.060 do? Well, that enables some companies to grow 01:43:33.060 --> 01:43:35.760 food for a particular purpose, which is more 01:43:35.760 --> 01:43:38.760 profitable. And in this case, that facilitated 01:43:38.760 --> 01:43:41.819 the rise as of factory farming, right? Because, 01:43:41.840 --> 01:43:43.899 all right, if we can grow as much food as possible, 01:43:44.180 --> 01:43:46.880 but the most profitable food to sell is meat, 01:43:47.300 --> 01:43:50.260 then let's just grow infinite amounts of, you 01:43:50.260 --> 01:43:53.479 know, cattle feed to feed the cattle, right? 01:43:53.560 --> 01:43:57.039 So that didn't end up like solving all problems 01:43:57.039 --> 01:44:00.000 related to famine and starvation, right? It actually 01:44:00.000 --> 01:44:02.420 just created excess in one part of the world 01:44:02.420 --> 01:44:05.140 and other parts of the world are still suffering 01:44:05.140 --> 01:44:08.659 from the issues that they had. 20, 30, 40 years 01:44:08.659 --> 01:44:11.579 ago, or even centuries ago, right? So technology 01:44:11.579 --> 01:44:14.800 solves problems, yeah, sure, but it also creates 01:44:14.800 --> 01:44:16.659 new problems. So when we're talking about these 01:44:16.659 --> 01:44:19.199 apocalyptic predictions, right, some of them 01:44:19.199 --> 01:44:22.119 are going to be just flat out wrong, whether 01:44:22.119 --> 01:44:24.659 because the data was not in at the time of that 01:44:24.659 --> 01:44:27.300 prediction, or because of some sort of technological 01:44:27.300 --> 01:44:30.500 development. But being wrong doesn't necessarily 01:44:30.500 --> 01:44:33.340 mean that it's going to be better either, right? 01:44:33.939 --> 01:44:38.710 So just because we I think we cannot and mustn't 01:44:38.710 --> 01:44:45.109 assume that what fear -mongering activists tell 01:44:45.109 --> 01:44:47.170 us right like oh you know New York's gonna be 01:44:47.170 --> 01:44:49.289 under 20 feet of water by the end of the century 01:44:49.289 --> 01:44:52.109 we don't have to believe that we probably shouldn't 01:44:52.109 --> 01:44:54.789 just believe them right because they don't know 01:44:54.789 --> 01:44:56.689 any more than perhaps a little more than we do 01:44:56.689 --> 01:45:00.590 but they don't know you know they're not certain 01:45:00.590 --> 01:45:03.609 about those things but it is also true that like 01:45:03.680 --> 01:45:07.359 What we do know is that the lifestyle that we 01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:10.220 currently live in western society, that we currently 01:45:10.220 --> 01:45:12.520 experience in western societies in the global 01:45:12.520 --> 01:45:15.340 north, right, this lifestyle of like exes, of 01:45:15.340 --> 01:45:19.300 living beyond our means, right, that will inevitably 01:45:19.300 --> 01:45:22.100 create problems. We don't know what those problems 01:45:22.100 --> 01:45:24.079 are, we don't know what the end result of those 01:45:24.079 --> 01:45:26.460 problems is going to be, right, but we know that 01:45:26.460 --> 01:45:29.720 it cannot go on forever. So yeah, I agree that 01:45:29.720 --> 01:45:32.250 that that we probably shouldn't put too much 01:45:32.250 --> 01:45:35.050 faith in those apocalyptic predictions, right? 01:45:35.229 --> 01:45:37.789 But we should be aware of the fact that these 01:45:37.789 --> 01:45:40.390 predictions are based on data that we do have, 01:45:40.390 --> 01:45:43.289 right? And that does point to a number of problems 01:45:43.289 --> 01:45:45.810 that we're already experiencing, right? So for 01:45:45.810 --> 01:45:50.550 instance, you mentioned that scene in a life 01:45:50.550 --> 01:45:53.289 on our planet. It's actually one of the scenes 01:45:53.289 --> 01:45:58.270 that I enjoy the most, partly because I think 01:45:58.839 --> 01:46:02.939 they did a fairly good job at sort of relating 01:46:02.939 --> 01:46:06.180 how one issue will cascade into a number of other 01:46:06.180 --> 01:46:10.119 issues, right? Specifically speaking, how climate 01:46:10.119 --> 01:46:13.119 change will result in the shutting down of certain 01:46:13.119 --> 01:46:16.279 ecological systems and a mass extinction of species, 01:46:16.300 --> 01:46:18.760 right? I think that that is well connected. But 01:46:18.760 --> 01:46:21.399 you're right in pointing out that like the number 01:46:21.399 --> 01:46:25.680 of, you know, that, well, actually there's two 01:46:25.680 --> 01:46:27.399 things that I want to mention here. So the one 01:46:27.399 --> 01:46:32.239 thing is that, I think you're pointing out that 01:46:32.239 --> 01:46:37.220 this sort of imagery, right, apocalyptic imagery, 01:46:37.420 --> 01:46:40.899 like this prophetic sort of dream, nightmare, 01:46:41.380 --> 01:46:49.000 right, I think it's political productivity is 01:46:49.000 --> 01:46:51.500 questionable. Like just how much does it motivate 01:46:51.500 --> 01:46:55.100 people or does it perhaps demotivate people? 01:46:55.279 --> 01:46:57.479 So there have been some empirical studies about 01:46:57.479 --> 01:47:01.100 that. it seems to be pretty evenly split, interestingly 01:47:01.100 --> 01:47:03.680 enough. Some people look at that and say, OK, 01:47:03.680 --> 01:47:05.819 we got to do something, right? And some people 01:47:05.819 --> 01:47:10.159 look at that and say, we're toast. So people 01:47:10.159 --> 01:47:15.659 either fall into despair or will become highly 01:47:15.659 --> 01:47:19.140 motivated to do something about these things. 01:47:20.020 --> 01:47:23.140 So you can question the political productivity 01:47:23.140 --> 01:47:28.609 of that sort of fear mongering. I'm sorry, interesting 01:47:28.609 --> 01:47:31.829 side note. Remember I told you that people have 01:47:31.829 --> 01:47:36.130 sort of compared which or they've done empirical 01:47:36.130 --> 01:47:39.310 analyses of like what kind of film seems to motivate 01:47:39.310 --> 01:47:41.470 people most, right? If it's just a film that 01:47:41.470 --> 01:47:43.729 observes but doesn't actually promote causes 01:47:43.729 --> 01:47:46.789 or a film that promotes causes. Well, there was 01:47:46.789 --> 01:47:49.369 a bit of a control group in one of those studies 01:47:49.369 --> 01:47:52.810 and they had them watch The Day After Tomorrow, 01:47:53.189 --> 01:47:57.510 which is like the most exaggerated implausible 01:47:57.510 --> 01:48:00.909 version of climate change, right? Turns out that 01:48:00.909 --> 01:48:03.909 one actually motivated people the most. Which 01:48:03.909 --> 01:48:07.329 is ridiculous, right? Because people would confess 01:48:07.329 --> 01:48:11.329 knowing that this was all fictional, but apparently 01:48:11.329 --> 01:48:15.909 those fictionalized, exaggerated representations 01:48:15.909 --> 01:48:19.470 of what could happen, or probably what could 01:48:19.470 --> 01:48:23.350 never happen, seem to have actually motivated 01:48:23.350 --> 01:48:25.869 people most because they stayed with people. 01:48:26.039 --> 01:48:29.000 Right. People remember those dramatic scenes. 01:48:29.420 --> 01:48:31.500 And so the next time they, you know, they were 01:48:31.500 --> 01:48:33.819 leaving their office, they thought about those, 01:48:33.819 --> 01:48:37.560 you know, like, blizzards in the middle of Los 01:48:37.560 --> 01:48:39.159 Angeles. And they were like, Oh, no, I better 01:48:39.159 --> 01:48:42.239 turn the lights off. Right. So it's it's ironic. 01:48:43.220 --> 01:48:46.039 It's it's it's unpredictable. Right. Again, right. 01:48:46.119 --> 01:48:48.180 It's impossible to tell exactly what's going 01:48:48.180 --> 01:48:50.800 to click with people. Right. What's going to 01:48:50.800 --> 01:48:55.279 motivate them. So, yeah, the the the apocalyptic 01:48:55.279 --> 01:48:58.079 imagery and and now in documentaries as well 01:48:58.079 --> 01:49:01.880 right like in my life on our planet we we don't 01:49:01.880 --> 01:49:04.819 really know how it affects or we can't really 01:49:04.819 --> 01:49:07.859 make generalized assumptions about how it will 01:49:07.859 --> 01:49:09.859 affect people right some people will see that 01:49:09.859 --> 01:49:11.720 and become motivated some people will see that 01:49:11.720 --> 01:49:16.779 and fall into grief or despair right um what 01:49:16.779 --> 01:49:21.380 what does seem to be true is that the more the 01:49:21.380 --> 01:49:26.289 more images like that people become exposed to, 01:49:26.590 --> 01:49:29.449 the higher the chance of them falling into what 01:49:29.449 --> 01:49:32.489 is increasingly called ecograve, right? Ecological 01:49:32.489 --> 01:49:35.189 grief. That perhaps is not just watching at one 01:49:35.189 --> 01:49:37.590 time, but the fact that now we're constantly 01:49:37.590 --> 01:49:40.869 bombarded by these images of, you know, these 01:49:40.869 --> 01:49:44.729 apocalyptic images that are related to ecological 01:49:44.729 --> 01:49:47.970 problems that we have. But unfortunately, you 01:49:47.970 --> 01:49:49.850 know, I think that is something that perhaps 01:49:49.850 --> 01:49:53.199 is worth thinking about because So this particular 01:49:53.199 --> 01:49:55.039 scene that you mentioned, the one where there's 01:49:55.039 --> 01:49:58.199 fires and dust devils, these little tornadoes. 01:49:58.340 --> 01:50:02.859 So that's not AI. That was something that actually 01:50:02.859 --> 01:50:06.640 seems to happen sometimes in Australia. And that 01:50:06.640 --> 01:50:08.359 apparently is happening more and more because 01:50:08.359 --> 01:50:10.020 of climate change. You might recall that a couple 01:50:10.020 --> 01:50:12.420 of years ago, all of Australia was on fire. There 01:50:12.420 --> 01:50:15.840 were those images of koalas literally burning 01:50:15.840 --> 01:50:23.279 to death. And that sort of imagery is becoming 01:50:23.279 --> 01:50:26.819 more common precisely because these problems 01:50:26.819 --> 01:50:29.899 are already affecting us. Like some of these 01:50:29.899 --> 01:50:32.560 predictions, quote unquote, have actually come 01:50:32.560 --> 01:50:35.460 true, right? You may recall that last year, Jasper 01:50:35.460 --> 01:50:38.279 National Park here in Canada burnt up, right? 01:50:38.619 --> 01:50:42.500 A place that people would perhaps think would 01:50:42.500 --> 01:50:45.060 be better prepared or that would be protected 01:50:45.060 --> 01:50:47.760 in some ways, right? the conditions were such 01:50:47.760 --> 01:50:49.920 that it was impossible to do anything about it. 01:50:50.020 --> 01:50:52.279 It was really hot that year. There was what people 01:50:52.279 --> 01:50:55.439 called a heat dome. There was initially hardly 01:50:55.439 --> 01:50:58.979 any snow in the winter. The forest was extremely, 01:50:59.279 --> 01:51:02.399 exceedingly unusually dry. And so it burnt up. 01:51:02.560 --> 01:51:04.939 And so it is getting to the point where some 01:51:04.939 --> 01:51:08.680 of those dire predictions, again, not all, and 01:51:08.680 --> 01:51:11.520 not to make any definitive claims here, but some 01:51:11.520 --> 01:51:14.979 of them seem to be coming true. I read a report 01:51:14.979 --> 01:51:17.489 earlier today that something that was predicted 01:51:17.489 --> 01:51:19.329 about 10 years ago in another documentary that 01:51:19.329 --> 01:51:22.109 I watched in Chasing Coral actually did happen 01:51:22.109 --> 01:51:25.189 this year, which is that essentially all coral 01:51:25.189 --> 01:51:27.630 reefs around the world experienced leaching. 01:51:28.289 --> 01:51:30.390 It used to be that it was localized, and this 01:51:30.390 --> 01:51:33.810 year every single reef experienced leaching. 01:51:34.550 --> 01:51:37.470 And so that is a definite step towards the extinction 01:51:37.470 --> 01:51:39.949 of that entire coral reef ecosystem, because 01:51:39.949 --> 01:51:42.149 if it happens two, three years in a row, they're 01:51:42.149 --> 01:51:44.069 gone. There aren't that many of them. They're 01:51:44.069 --> 01:51:46.760 highly localized. two or three years, we may 01:51:46.760 --> 01:51:50.260 not have coral reefs anymore. So again, predictions 01:51:50.260 --> 01:51:53.920 are one thing, but it is important to be aware 01:51:53.920 --> 01:51:56.079 of the fact that some of the things that people 01:51:56.079 --> 01:51:58.739 have been talking about on predictability and 01:51:58.739 --> 01:52:01.180 weather and not knowing how it will affect ecosystems 01:52:01.180 --> 01:52:04.680 and ourselves, that seems to already be something 01:52:04.680 --> 01:52:08.119 that we need to deal with in the present. So 01:52:08.119 --> 01:52:12.939 yeah, again, not to say Not to scare people. 01:52:13.279 --> 01:52:15.199 Again, I think you're right in pointing out we 01:52:15.199 --> 01:52:18.819 shouldn't be constantly thinking about or speculating 01:52:18.819 --> 01:52:20.960 about the future because we can't. We can't know 01:52:20.960 --> 01:52:24.180 for sure, right? But it's good to be aware of 01:52:24.180 --> 01:52:26.260 the fact that some of the things that people 01:52:26.260 --> 01:52:28.539 have been talking about and that we now witness 01:52:28.539 --> 01:52:31.199 on a regular basis, like fires and stuff like 01:52:31.199 --> 01:52:34.039 that. Well, you know, as people have been saying, 01:52:34.319 --> 01:52:37.579 part of a new normal. And it's a new normal that 01:52:37.579 --> 01:52:40.020 is going to be really difficult to deal with. 01:52:42.279 --> 01:52:46.819 And just to add a detail about that, not all 01:52:46.819 --> 01:52:53.380 regions will be affected equally according to 01:52:53.380 --> 01:52:59.300 estimates. the global south will be affected 01:52:59.300 --> 01:53:02.699 more than the north. In fact, I remember a chemistry 01:53:02.699 --> 01:53:06.199 class in college where the teacher talked about 01:53:06.199 --> 01:53:10.800 the benefits of climate change for Canada. Yeah, 01:53:10.800 --> 01:53:14.739 how we would, you know, get rid of our winter. 01:53:14.840 --> 01:53:19.119 And so we would be able to cultivate land all 01:53:19.119 --> 01:53:24.600 year long. And, you know, since we have so many 01:53:24.600 --> 01:53:29.289 lakes and and rivers and all of that, we won't 01:53:29.289 --> 01:53:36.270 have to worry about droughts. Yeah, no, you're 01:53:36.270 --> 01:53:40.130 right. Unfortunately, some people think about 01:53:40.130 --> 01:53:44.289 it that way. During my first year here in Canada, 01:53:44.550 --> 01:53:51.949 so 2019, there was a bit of a scandal because 01:53:51.949 --> 01:53:55.829 somebody, which I don't think was ever identified, 01:53:56.140 --> 01:54:02.399 Somebody gave the okay for the creation of this 01:54:02.399 --> 01:54:08.819 one billboard featuring a cow and the University 01:54:08.819 --> 01:54:14.520 of Alberta logo, and it read, climate change 01:54:14.520 --> 01:54:20.020 will lengthen the growing season, boosting beef 01:54:20.020 --> 01:54:24.319 production. That was all it said. And it was 01:54:24.319 --> 01:54:26.380 a big deal because, well, first off, the official 01:54:26.380 --> 01:54:28.939 position of the university, regardless of whether 01:54:28.939 --> 01:54:30.560 they actually follow through or not, the official 01:54:30.560 --> 01:54:33.279 position is that the climate crisis is something 01:54:33.279 --> 01:54:35.399 that needs to be addressed, right? So saying 01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:37.819 something like that is, it doesn't square with 01:54:37.819 --> 01:54:39.939 the university's philosophy to begin with, right? 01:54:40.520 --> 01:54:45.060 But it was, I mean, again, I didn't follow up 01:54:45.060 --> 01:54:46.760 on the story. I was new, so I just thought it 01:54:46.760 --> 01:54:48.800 was ridiculous and didn't really follow through. 01:54:48.920 --> 01:54:52.239 But now in hindsight, I realize of like, what 01:54:52.239 --> 01:54:54.859 they were doing, right? Essentially doing what 01:54:54.859 --> 01:54:57.899 your professor seems to be, well, seems to have 01:54:57.899 --> 01:55:01.020 done or said, right? Which is, don't worry about 01:55:01.020 --> 01:55:02.899 climate change. It's actually gonna make things 01:55:02.899 --> 01:55:05.079 better for us, right? And here in Alberta, for 01:55:05.079 --> 01:55:07.500 people who don't know, beef is a big freaking 01:55:07.500 --> 01:55:10.180 deal, right? They love their beef here. Alberta 01:55:10.180 --> 01:55:12.500 is essentially like the Texas of Canada, right? 01:55:12.619 --> 01:55:14.699 So they love their barbecues, they love their 01:55:14.699 --> 01:55:18.189 beef, they love their burgers. And so, hearing 01:55:18.189 --> 01:55:20.470 or reading that climate change will actually 01:55:20.470 --> 01:55:24.609 allow us to eat more and cheaper beef was like 01:55:24.609 --> 01:55:28.250 music to the ears of most Albertans, right? So 01:55:28.250 --> 01:55:35.470 it was a PR disaster for a hot second there. 01:55:36.170 --> 01:55:38.710 And I think you have to question what sort of 01:55:38.760 --> 01:55:41.560 what might have motivated somebody to give the 01:55:41.560 --> 01:55:44.300 okay to this billboard. And of course, eventually 01:55:44.300 --> 01:55:46.279 it was taken down after a couple of weeks, but 01:55:46.279 --> 01:55:50.380 it was there. And again, I think some people 01:55:50.380 --> 01:55:53.000 unfortunately do think about what they stand 01:55:53.000 --> 01:55:57.100 to gain, even as millions of people are forced 01:55:57.100 --> 01:56:00.640 from their homes because they become essentially 01:56:00.640 --> 01:56:03.600 places where nobody can live anymore. That's 01:56:03.600 --> 01:56:07.229 already happening in some places. around the 01:56:07.229 --> 01:56:12.470 world I remember I remember going to this one 01:56:12.470 --> 01:56:14.850 event in Amsterdam and I'm gonna shoot myself 01:56:14.850 --> 01:56:18.250 right now because I can't remember who it was 01:56:18.250 --> 01:56:22.750 but if I'm not mistaken he was some sort of he 01:56:22.750 --> 01:56:25.329 was a journalist and he was a big -name journalist 01:56:25.329 --> 01:56:28.710 I can't remember who it was though and and what 01:56:28.710 --> 01:56:32.449 he was there to talk about was how through his 01:56:32.720 --> 01:56:35.760 many years as a correspondent in the Middle East, 01:56:36.079 --> 01:56:40.420 he had learned that the reason why, or one of 01:56:40.420 --> 01:56:43.760 the main reasons why so many people were fleeing 01:56:43.760 --> 01:56:47.560 that area and why that particular part of the 01:56:47.560 --> 01:56:51.520 world has become so hotly contested, no pun intended, 01:56:51.739 --> 01:56:53.979 is because it's becoming increasingly difficult 01:56:53.979 --> 01:56:56.060 to live in that area because of climate change. 01:56:56.619 --> 01:56:59.489 Resources are scarcer than they used to be. water 01:56:59.489 --> 01:57:02.229 is scarce as well. I remember he specifically 01:57:02.229 --> 01:57:08.470 talked about the civil war in Syria and how many 01:57:08.470 --> 01:57:11.989 of the villages that were most militant, who 01:57:11.989 --> 01:57:14.770 felt like they could no longer stand the regime 01:57:14.770 --> 01:57:18.470 anymore, were the villages that had suffered 01:57:18.470 --> 01:57:22.489 from several years of drought without any sort 01:57:22.489 --> 01:57:24.689 of help from the government. And that while he 01:57:24.689 --> 01:57:27.350 acknowledged the fact that Assad's government 01:57:27.840 --> 01:57:30.800 Could have done something he also realized that 01:57:30.800 --> 01:57:32.760 like what they could have done was, you know 01:57:32.760 --> 01:57:35.279 Comparatively very little because there was very 01:57:35.279 --> 01:57:37.859 there's very little you can do when it just won't 01:57:37.859 --> 01:57:41.399 rain, right? So, um, so the fact that that's 01:57:41.399 --> 01:57:43.979 already something that's exacerbating that political 01:57:43.979 --> 01:57:46.000 political stability of a place like the Middle 01:57:46.000 --> 01:57:48.859 East right and that's only going to get worse 01:57:48.859 --> 01:57:51.399 in another because it's going to Start happening 01:57:51.399 --> 01:57:53.859 in other parts of the world. Well, you know, 01:57:54.079 --> 01:57:55.359 that's something we should all be worried about 01:57:55.359 --> 01:57:58.140 is even if you're somebody who believes in borders 01:57:58.140 --> 01:58:00.939 and you know is a patriot and only really cares 01:58:00.939 --> 01:58:02.739 about Canada because guess what those people 01:58:02.739 --> 01:58:04.800 are going to look for another place to go to 01:58:04.800 --> 01:58:09.399 right and so um thinking that way thinking that 01:58:09.399 --> 01:58:12.479 that that you may actually benefit from climate 01:58:12.479 --> 01:58:15.479 change is myopic you're not looking at the whole 01:58:15.479 --> 01:58:18.199 picture you're not thinking about how other things 01:58:18.199 --> 01:58:20.340 that you may not think are related to climate 01:58:20.340 --> 01:58:27.279 change or if are going to get worse, right? Precisely 01:58:27.279 --> 01:58:30.340 because they were affected by something that 01:58:30.340 --> 01:58:34.140 you thought was good for you. Yeah, Assad should 01:58:34.140 --> 01:58:39.079 have done something performative, like a ceremony, 01:58:39.420 --> 01:58:42.859 like the old pharaohs would do or the old Chinese 01:58:42.859 --> 01:58:47.779 emperors, you know, to attract. Yeah, I mean, 01:58:47.819 --> 01:58:50.279 again, right? I think, I think not to say that 01:58:50.279 --> 01:58:53.260 he could have actually done anything like no 01:58:53.260 --> 01:58:57.000 regime on earth can make rain happen right but 01:58:57.000 --> 01:58:59.939 i mean when you are when when when you're at 01:58:59.939 --> 01:59:03.060 the mercy of of your overlords right and then 01:59:03.060 --> 01:59:05.000 you you're not happy with your situation you 01:59:05.000 --> 01:59:08.119 blame them right and as sad was guilty of very 01:59:08.119 --> 01:59:10.899 many crimes right so this is you know perhaps 01:59:10.899 --> 01:59:13.920 only it is only fair that eventually he was ousted 01:59:13.920 --> 01:59:17.300 but but it is true that like it's going to be 01:59:17.300 --> 01:59:20.680 difficult for governments to justify their power 01:59:20.680 --> 01:59:23.960 if they cannot provide the basic necessities 01:59:23.960 --> 01:59:26.779 that their people need and that in a play in 01:59:26.779 --> 01:59:29.899 a world where resources are strained and where 01:59:29.899 --> 01:59:33.420 you can no longer rely on weather patterns to 01:59:33.420 --> 01:59:36.479 you know grow your crops for example it's going 01:59:36.479 --> 01:59:40.279 to be really hard to provide for people in some 01:59:40.279 --> 01:59:43.539 parts of earth right and so that is only going 01:59:43.539 --> 01:59:47.500 to breed more instability that's always the comment 01:59:47.869 --> 01:59:52.229 I gave to preppers, I think they're called. Yeah, 01:59:52.529 --> 01:59:55.710 right. It's, it's like you're gathering all of 01:59:55.710 --> 01:59:59.350 that food and you're preparing yourself for the 01:59:59.350 --> 02:00:02.449 big day. But what about your neighbors? You know, 02:00:02.569 --> 02:00:05.729 they're aware that you're stocking up. Yeah, 02:00:05.909 --> 02:00:07.909 that's right. That's a great analogy, actually. 02:00:08.069 --> 02:00:09.930 But what about your neighbor? If your neighbors 02:00:09.930 --> 02:00:14.340 know that you're stuck piling food, right? Yeah, 02:00:14.500 --> 02:00:16.260 great analogy, actually. I'm going to steal that. 02:00:16.300 --> 02:00:18.520 I'm going to steal that. Yeah, steal it away. 02:00:19.180 --> 02:00:22.279 And, you know, it's not only them as a threat, 02:00:22.279 --> 02:00:24.340 you know, they're going to steal your food, but 02:00:24.340 --> 02:00:28.760 it's also the moral, you know, are you really 02:00:28.760 --> 02:00:33.199 going to let them starve? Yeah. Yeah. That's, 02:00:33.199 --> 02:00:35.060 that's the part that always baffles me, right? 02:00:35.180 --> 02:00:39.960 Because, you know, not to, not to get lost in 02:00:39.960 --> 02:00:42.159 the weeds here, but people who think that way, 02:00:43.000 --> 02:00:46.579 tend, in my experience, they tend to fall within 02:00:46.579 --> 02:00:50.119 one, they lean towards one side of the political 02:00:50.119 --> 02:00:52.899 spectrum, right? And it's usually the same political 02:00:52.899 --> 02:00:58.960 spectrum that tends to ally themselves with like, 02:00:58.960 --> 02:01:02.800 you know, Christianity or religion, right? And 02:01:02.800 --> 02:01:07.819 this high morality. And then they say these things 02:01:07.819 --> 02:01:10.140 about letting their, essentially letting their 02:01:10.140 --> 02:01:13.109 neighbors starve, right? I can't square that 02:01:13.109 --> 02:01:14.970 in my head. I don't I don't know how that works. 02:01:14.970 --> 02:01:18.449 But anyway, that's neither here nor there. Yeah, 02:01:18.449 --> 02:01:21.449 they should study history because the mob will 02:01:21.449 --> 02:01:28.609 write will will appear and at the gates and won't 02:01:28.609 --> 02:01:33.529 be pretty. That's right. Alex, this has been 02:01:33.529 --> 02:01:36.449 a very pleasant conversation. I've learned so 02:01:36.449 --> 02:01:40.189 much. And thank you. I'm so grateful you exist. 02:01:40.359 --> 02:01:44.840 When are you going to write a book? I've been 02:01:44.840 --> 02:01:50.319 doing that for the past six years. So the first 02:01:50.319 --> 02:01:52.140 thing that I have to finish is the project that 02:01:52.140 --> 02:01:56.979 I've been working on as my doctoral thesis, which 02:01:56.979 --> 02:02:00.560 is specifically about ecological documentaries, 02:02:01.140 --> 02:02:08.579 my interest or what I decided to dedicate my 02:02:08.579 --> 02:02:13.180 PhD work to. is essentially trying to understand 02:02:13.180 --> 02:02:19.180 these different modalities of environmental documentary. 02:02:19.699 --> 02:02:21.899 We've been talking about what I think is one 02:02:21.899 --> 02:02:27.060 of the main modalities, which is something like 02:02:27.060 --> 02:02:29.680 David Attenborough's A Life on Our Planet, which 02:02:29.680 --> 02:02:32.579 is just this one central figure who tries to 02:02:32.579 --> 02:02:35.260 walk you through whatever ecological problem 02:02:35.260 --> 02:02:37.979 they're talking about and then they offer you 02:02:37.979 --> 02:02:39.920 a number of solutions. And like I told you, I 02:02:39.920 --> 02:02:43.060 think that goes back or perhaps the first film 02:02:43.060 --> 02:02:46.220 to do that in relation to an environmental problem 02:02:46.220 --> 02:02:49.279 in a meaningful way, in a way that actually made 02:02:49.279 --> 02:02:55.020 an impact in the popular culture was An Inconvenient 02:02:55.020 --> 02:02:58.079 Truth. So that's one mode. Then there's another 02:02:58.079 --> 02:03:01.159 mode that's more related to just endangered species, 02:03:01.159 --> 02:03:05.029 for example. A good example of a film like that 02:03:05.029 --> 02:03:07.210 is the one that I talked about before, like chasing 02:03:07.210 --> 02:03:09.670 coral, chasing coral specifically about coral 02:03:09.670 --> 02:03:12.770 and the problems that coral is facing and how, 02:03:13.010 --> 02:03:17.329 perhaps how, what kind of efforts may lead to 02:03:17.329 --> 02:03:20.329 rescue or to saving that species, right? And 02:03:20.329 --> 02:03:22.789 then there's the kind of film that I'm currently, 02:03:23.810 --> 02:03:25.649 well, the one that I'm currently writing about 02:03:25.649 --> 02:03:27.289 because I'm trying to finish my dissertation 02:03:27.289 --> 02:03:30.189 and this is like the last chapter in there. It's, 02:03:30.369 --> 02:03:33.210 you know, these are films that again, just kind 02:03:33.210 --> 02:03:37.090 of observe a certain environment or ecology, 02:03:37.350 --> 02:03:39.890 right? A good example, a recent example is honey 02:03:39.890 --> 02:03:43.949 land, for example, which is about this one woman 02:03:43.949 --> 02:03:53.930 who is supposed to be the last wild beekeeper 02:03:53.930 --> 02:03:57.970 in all of Europe. So instead of like keeping 02:03:57.970 --> 02:04:01.090 domesticated bees, she keeps wild bees, and so 02:04:01.090 --> 02:04:03.029 it's supposed to be more ecologically explainable. 02:04:03.350 --> 02:04:08.449 So there's a number of different ways in which 02:04:08.449 --> 02:04:11.729 directors, right, documentarians will try to 02:04:11.729 --> 02:04:13.390 promote environmental causes, and I'm looking 02:04:13.390 --> 02:04:15.789 specifically at the ones that have to do with 02:04:15.789 --> 02:04:21.109 biodiversity loss in some way. We share the fact 02:04:21.109 --> 02:04:23.890 that we're vegan, right? But for me, veganism 02:04:23.890 --> 02:04:26.409 goes beyond food choices, right? I think that 02:04:27.210 --> 02:04:32.789 that if we truly extend these feelings of compassion 02:04:32.789 --> 02:04:38.930 and empathy and try to create an ethical framework 02:04:38.930 --> 02:04:42.350 that extends beyond the human, then we have to 02:04:42.350 --> 02:04:47.710 consider not just what we eat, but also how we 02:04:47.710 --> 02:04:50.489 conduct ourselves as a species or as a society 02:04:50.489 --> 02:04:53.289 and how it affects creatures that are living 02:04:53.289 --> 02:04:57.489 increasingly precarious lives. So that's sort 02:04:57.489 --> 02:04:59.149 of what I'm studying. And that's what my first 02:04:59.149 --> 02:05:01.609 book, if you want to put it like that, will be 02:05:01.609 --> 02:05:04.229 about. It will just be about documentaries that 02:05:04.229 --> 02:05:07.250 have to do with extinction and biodiversity laws. 02:05:08.170 --> 02:05:10.609 And then later on, I think I'll try to tackle 02:05:10.609 --> 02:05:14.489 other issues. But let's just say that doing a 02:05:14.489 --> 02:05:18.470 PhD is kicking my butt. So it might be a little 02:05:18.470 --> 02:05:23.579 wild. But I think, yeah, you know. As I work 02:05:23.579 --> 02:05:26.560 on this, I try to put things out here and there. 02:05:27.000 --> 02:05:29.500 I think you found out about me because of this 02:05:29.500 --> 02:05:34.520 one thing I wrote about axolotls. I can't remember 02:05:34.520 --> 02:05:37.399 if it was that or if it was something else. I 02:05:37.399 --> 02:05:41.260 try to write stories. I try to write about things 02:05:41.260 --> 02:05:44.140 that have to do with animals and particularly 02:05:44.140 --> 02:05:47.979 animals that are endangered but also in some 02:05:47.979 --> 02:05:52.489 ways closely related to people. people tend to 02:05:52.489 --> 02:05:54.270 make this mistake, or there's mistaken assumption 02:05:54.270 --> 02:05:56.689 that like wild animals and domestic animals are 02:05:56.689 --> 02:05:58.930 two different things. And that one is closer 02:05:58.930 --> 02:06:01.210 to people than the other. But you'd be surprised. 02:06:01.510 --> 02:06:04.890 Like, again, I you know, it's even hard to determine 02:06:04.890 --> 02:06:07.770 whether an axolotl is a domesticated or a wild 02:06:07.770 --> 02:06:11.210 species, right? So those are the kind of questions 02:06:11.210 --> 02:06:15.449 that I'm interested in the most. That's all great 02:06:15.449 --> 02:06:22.109 stuff. Be brave. I mean, I wish you good luck 02:06:22.109 --> 02:06:26.109 for the PhD and of course, you're always welcome 02:06:26.109 --> 02:06:29.050 on the show. I'm so happy to introduce your voice 02:06:29.050 --> 02:06:33.010 to my audience and at the same time, I'm preparing 02:06:33.010 --> 02:06:38.130 you for your future book tour. Yeah, you're right. 02:06:38.430 --> 02:06:40.069 Actually, I should be thanking you for that. 02:06:40.069 --> 02:06:46.420 You're welcome. So thank you again, Alex. Thank 02:06:46.420 --> 02:06:49.479 you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you 02:06:49.479 --> 02:06:51.979 to share this podcast with the vegans you know. 02:06:52.380 --> 02:06:56.460 Let's encourage more people to take action. Again, 02:06:56.760 --> 02:06:59.380 thank you so much for caring and I will see you 02:06:59.380 --> 02:07:01.500 next Tuesday for a new episode.