Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and today we remember and honor the incredible
life of Jane Goodall. The Jane Goodall Institute,
founded by Jane herself, had those words to say
about her passing. Throughout her life and remarkable
career, Jane inspired generations of scientists,
brought hope to countless people from all walks
of life and urged us all to remember that, quote,
every single one of us makes a difference every
day. It is up to us as to the kind of difference
we make. To discuss Jane Goodall's life and her
legacy, I have with me three people who have
met her and whose lives have been touched by
her life work. I am joined by Dr. Mary Lee Jainspolt,
the Primate Communication Scientist and Associate
Director at FUNA Foundation, the only chimp sanctuary
in Canada, and Friends of Washu, a non -profit
organization dedicated to the welfare of chimpanzees.
She is also the very first guest of The Vegan
Report. Yes, from episode 1. I can say with confidence
that without her voice, this podcast would not
exist. I'm also joined by Dr. Alan Kornberg.
a pediatrician and professor of pediatrics by
profession, who served as executive director
for the United States for World Animal Protection
and for Farm Sanctuary. He is now the president
of the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries
and the treasurer of the Wilberforce Institute
and Dharma Voices for Animals. Two amazing non
-profits we have covered on this show. And lastly,
Madeleine Krasnow, founder and executive director
of Justify, the only organization in the world
focused on the human cost of animal experimentation
and the uniquely intimate, often painful bond
between lab workers and the animals they try
to care for. She appeared many times on the podcast,
a testament to how deeply I value her voice and
contributions. If you haven't already, I encourage
you to connect with and support the Jane Goodall
Institute, FUNA Sanctuary, Friends of Washu,
the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries,
and Justify. Those are good places to ground
your activism. Share this episode with the vegans
you know. This episode is an inspiring invitation
to action. For more meaningful conversations,
follow the show. As always, thank you for listening.
I guess we could start with a simple question
about Jane Goodall, which is, what was your first
contact with her? The first time maybe you met
her, your first memory of her or with her? So
who wants to answer the question first? Yeah,
so my first time meeting her in person, I was
a master's student at Central Washington University
where Washoe and the other signing chimps lived.
And at the time they lived, this was in I think
about 1988, they were living on the third floor
of the psychology building. And my mentor Roger
Fouts had brought them there in 1980. State had
promised to immediately build a building where
they could be outside. And then right after they
moved there, the state went into financial exigency.
I think that's the word for declaring bankruptcy.
And so the chimps had been... you know, they
were just sort of stuck in the psychology building.
So he spent over a decade, he and his wife, Deborah
Fouts, to build a building for the chimps on
campus. And we were in the last phases of doing
fundraising, we had to get the legislator because
it was on a university campus, a state -owned
campus. we had to get the legislators to agree
for the funding. And so Jane Goodall came and
addressed the legislators. Everything stopped,
all business stopped. And then we also had a
gala and she came to the gala. And so that was
my first time meeting her. And then Yeah, so
I guess I'll stop there with the first time.
I mean, it was just, you know, mind blowing and
overwhelming. And it already, you know, worshipped
everything about her because I wanted to work
with apes. And she had just a couple of years
before that published the chimpanzees of Gombe,
which was like the Bible of the chimp lab, because
it's just It's an incredible book. It's so well
written and so perfectly illustrated and explains
chimps and their behaviors. So it was really,
you know, just sort of rooted in chimp behavior,
which, yeah, that's me. Thank you, Mary Lee.
I feel the need to jump in here because things
are coming back to me from college right now.
And I could have sworn that I reached out to
you, Mary Lee. I don't know if that is true or
if it was one of my intentions, because I even
took sign language when I had started to learn
about the chimps at the time that were being
used in, you know, like at Central Washington
University. So this was one of the things that
I became aware of and had read Roger Fowd's books.
So this is all coming back to me, which is very
wild. So I guess I can also just like chime in
that, you know, Jane Goodall has been someone
that I've looked up to for as long as I can remember.
And when I went to college at the University
of Wisconsin -Madison, I ended up studying zoology
and child development. basically determined to
follow in Jane Goodall's footsteps and work in
primate conservation. And so this obviously guided
me in a number of ways, but I had the opportunity
to meet her in 2013 when she was speaking at
the University of Wisconsin's Earth Day event.
And that was just, Incredible because first of
all I waited in line for I think probably three
hours to just you know go and say hello to her
and I was with my mom and When we finally got
up to chat with her You know, I I'm trying to
figure out what do I say? What do I say? And
I guess my mom was also having the same feeling
And so, you know, it's that kind of like general,
like, thank you for your work. You've always
inspired me. And she was like, Well, thank you.
But, you know, what do you do? And I was just
like, I, you know, like, what does it matter
what I do, right? But at the same time, I think
it's so telling because that is who she is. She
cares so much about what others, who others are
and what they are doing. And, you know, is just
someone who isn't trying to have the attention
on herself. And I just, you know, I've always
looked back on that moment, which I guess now
is over 10 years ago. And reflected on just,
you know, her exquisite leadership in, you know,
really being someone who empowers others and
inspires them to, to do good. So little about
me. Thank you, Maddie. Alan. Yeah, the first
time I met her, it was probably seven or eight
or nine years ago, I was You know, I, as you
know, and we worked together at Donal Voices
for Animals, I work with a whole bunch of different
animal protection charities. And so I've been
on the board of the Global Federation of Animal
Sanctuaries. And so I live outside of Boston.
And so I was one of our sanctuaries, Foster Parrots,
totally unrelated to. chimps or primates is in
Rhode Island. So, you know, just for me, an easy,
easy trip. And I was intending to just visit
at some point for just a board member. And so
when I was going back and forth with the executive
director of Worcester Parish, she said, well,
here's a few days you can come. But just so you
know, Dr. Goodall is coming to visit with us
on this day with that work for you. And it was
like, you know, it's like. somebody the president
was coming, I might have checked my calendar,
but it was, you know, Dr. Goodall, and I didn't
even check my calendar, right? So, I hadn't met
her. And so she, you know, she's, as both Mary
Lee and Maddie have described, I mean, she's
lovely and self -effacing and was, and is always
looking at what about the other person. And so,
I was really touched. There were about 50 people
at Foster Parrots that day. I should also mention
this, that's kind of karma. I still get Nat Geo,
National Geographic's physical magazine, and
dating myself here, right? And so in my mailbox,
the day before I went to Forced Apparent, Nat
Geo came. And the 20 -something year old in khakis,
Dr. Goodall, was on the cover. So that seemed
like karma. And so she came. the first part.
And she was carrying three stuffed animals. She
was carrying a chimp, shockingly, and a cow,
and either a mouse or a rat. And so, of course,
making the point about what we do and shouldn't
do to the animals that we share the planet with.
And so it was all very, very touching. She spent
like 50 people there. And somehow, when I...
practice medicine for a while and you know in
medicine like many professions you try very hard
when you're in the room with a patient or you
know some people a client that all that matters
is that person right and so it's uh and she is
the best person in the world for that and it
was amazing how everyone that met with her including
me and to a lot of people there felt like there
was no stopwatch running at all. It was just
really amazing. So she asked me if, say, maybe
because I'm a doctor, there's a young vet who's
starting a charity that she asked if I would
support or mentor. And so I was like, yes, ma
'am. And then the last part of the story for
me, which was Brownie, was my wife grew up idolizing
Dr. Goodall. And so I asked Jane if she would
sign. the Nat Geo cover to to my better half,
which she did. And so so, you know, that was
like the best. It wasn't the address you put
out, like the best present ever. So it was a
really good get a free pass. Half kidding. But
but but so but she she really I mean, she touched
me in a lot of ways, but it was I mean, the two
most important ways was her nonverbal messaging
about all animals. And then as my colleagues
here described the way that she made the other
person feel like the center of the world and
not her. So thank you for giving me the opportunity
to share that. Yes, I want to get back to that
and discuss, you know, how come she had such
a deep effect on people around her. In one interview,
someone asked her basically that question and
she talked about the Jane effect or the Jane
magic. That's what she those are the words she
used. So what is what explains that magic? She
was probably one of the most gifted public speakers
I have ever encountered in my life. I mean, it's
just It's just amazing how, you know, everybody's
just so enthralled with what she was saying.
So it's just a really, really gifted speaker.
And I mean, that one -on -one thing is, yes,
she makes you feel like you're the center of
the world, but I was just so struck. I saw her
speak a couple of times. One time was at Pal
Books in Portland. I think she was on book tour
and I had the opportunity to introduce her. And
then she launched into her talk and it was, I
mean, she's just such a gifted speaker. It's
such a talent. And she was just able to pull
people and incredibly charismatic person. I would
add, last time Mr. Mysore was probably a couple
of years ago, and she was giving a talk in Boston,
and so my wife and I attended and spent a couple
of minutes and said hello and all that, but we
attended her talk, and so she was maybe a few
months short of 90 then. She traveled to Boston
from someplace out of country, so it was a significant
trip. And she's on this stage in this maybe like
2 ,000 or 3 ,000 person theater kind of building.
And I was kind of shocked about how good she
was. It wasn't just the presence she had. Given
her other talents and attributes, she would...
I mean, I just sort of... assume, which always
gets you in trouble, that she would, you know,
be self -spoken and, you know, she would touch
the audience in her special way, but not as this
charismatic public speaker. Plus, she was just
short of 90 and she just got off of like a six
or seven hour flight. And I was like, oh my God.
So what you said is some combination of probably
good genes and experience, but this quiet, lovely,
touching determination. all wrapped into one
special person. Yeah, I think she was an incredibly
thoughtful person in her use of language and
how she communicated about the chimpanzees and
just the natural world itself, which I have always
found really inspiring and also welcoming. She
wouldn't shy away from the urgency of issues,
but she also had a way of talking about it that
helped still motivate people to feel like they
could do something. And I think that's not an
easy task. It's difficult to talk about. Heartbreaking
like the suffering that's going on in the world
and then at the same time be like there's something
we can do there are reasons for hope right and
I think she had a really. Just excellent way
of of going about that I know it always inspired
me despite the harm taking place I mean I think
of there's a. quote that's been going around
recently where she says something along the lines
of, um, like the immune, the amazing human brain
has already discovered all of this. And she was
talking about animal research and in particular,
and I just liked the way that she sort of like
humans are amazing. And that's why we should
be able to do human relevant research, you know,
like she's. The way she talks it's just not demonizing
it's inspiring it's empowering and that gentle
gentle like thoughtful presence and approach
was also very obvious to me in like photography
and videography where i would see her with the
champs so i just it really felt like. We got
to know this this genuinely good person. And,
yeah, I think that just resonates with a lot
of people. If we talk about the legacy of Jane
Cuddle, what should be, you know, how should
we remember her? Is Jane Cuddle this amazing
scientist who has done so much in our understanding
of primates? Or is she this activist for you
know, denouncing what's happening with climate
change and the climate crisis, you know, she's
a complex figure in that sense. And so how should
we remember her? I'll go first on this one, because
I mean, to me, sort of the trail of, of how she
ended up, I mean, to a, I mean, Like for me in
the beginning and in her beginning, it was really
just about the chimps, right? She wanted to live
in the jungle and she was just curious and natural
ethologist. But then she ends up being this activist
that has such a global impact, right? I mean,
it's almost as if like the chimp part of it is
so under all of these layers of things. But she
realized right away, you know, that the only
way to help chimps was to broaden and to start
talking about the environment. And then, you
know, then she built from there, I mean, just
brilliant to be starting the roots and shoots
in the 80s, you know, and getting children involved.
And so just sort of like building from there.
But I think, you know, what motivated her to
be what got her got her going was was the chimps.
But just amazing. Like I just I realized after
she passed, you know, when I was reading all
the media, it's like people aren't even talking
about chimps. They're talking about all the other
stuff she did. which is pretty amazing, right?
It was a story that I had, I think it was in
one of the many, many videos about her, and it
was a roots and shoots program in the DOC Democratic
Republic of the Congo. And so she, they were
children that were doing some combination of
conservation and animal protection work. and
several of, you know, militia guys came by with
their semi -automatics and all that, and that
she was there. And so, you know, this is almost
like one of those. And then, you know, the sun
came out kind of, and they put their guns down
and helped the kids, you know. So, you know,
so there's that, you know, that touch in some
way, very special. So, Maddie, did you want to
answer the question too? Yeah, I don't know that
I have much to add. I feel like Mary Lee covered
a lot of it. I mean, I think she just, you know,
inspired people in ways that, you know, translated
so much into different people's personal lives
and made sort of... This this journey to becoming
an activist actually More accessible for like
the general public And I love that it kind of
sprouted from her her experience with the chimps
because You know, I also see that in myself in
in what happened working in a primate lab with
The monkeys even though i was you know i ended
up there in the first place cuz i wanted to work
in conservation like her it was that experience
that made my world sort of grow. And made me
you know forced me to not just look at the impacts
we have on animals and labs but the impacts we
have on animals in all these different industries
and also the human cost in. Animal research and
beyond you know human suffering all over the
world and how the environment ties into all of
this and so I I appreciate You know the fact
that we got to kind of see that growth with her
and also Seeing that reflected more broadly in
in the rest of us. I think it's it's important
and it shows that I think being an activist is
You know, sometimes that word can I think scare
people or it sounds I don't know. There's there's
just this connotation with it, but When it comes
to Jane and being an activist somehow it softens
the term and and makes it more accessible but
also inspiring to be Marilee what is exactly
her contribution to? our understanding of primates
and, you know, advancing science. I know that
she never earned an undergraduate degree that
she went right to having, you know, a PhD, starting
to become PhD. So what, you know, what do we
owe her in terms of, you know, advancing our
knowledge? Yeah, well, I guess, you know, I mean,
so the story is that she was, Louis Leakey wanted
to send three basically naive people into the
field to study apes. And so she was the chimp,
the chimp branch. And there was Brute Galticus
with orangutans and Dian Fossey with gorillas.
And, you know, I mean, There hadn't been long
-term field studies, so researchers would sort
of pop in and take a quick snapshot and then
pop out. So our understanding of the lives of
chimps, she's the one that brought that to us.
You know telling their stories of the individuals
and the relationships and the the drama And all
of the goings -on and and she was you know her
field site continues today but these years and
years of knowing these individuals and and how
they interacted and and so that really shined
a different kind of a light. She also understood
them as individuals with personality. She didn't
know that it was a bad thing to give them names
and to talk about emotions. And, you know, really
in the 60s and 70s, you did not do that. And
so that was tremendous, tremendous. And, you
know, what she's known for is They tell the story
of that, you know, she observed them making tools
and that was a first. But I really think, you
know, just the understanding sort of the depth
of what's going on in chimpanzee's lives and
that it's so much like the drama in our own lives.
The best documentary uh, People of the Forest.
It's like a 90 minute documentary of, um, you
know, the story of the lives of from Gombe. And
I mean, that's, that's just incredible to me
that that's, um, so impactful. And that's what
she contributed to me. Um, besides, you know,
by the fact that she was spending time I can't
show you the book because my computer is propped
on it. It's one of the thicker books in my library.
But it's this coffee table book that goes through
each one of the behavioral contexts of grooming
and all the behaviors in there. And it's just
so interesting because she makes it. It can be
pretty dry stuff, but it's written um, in such
a way that it's fascinating and, um, just so
detailed and she, she was just an incredible
ethologist really at heart. Thank you. Um, back
in 2015, um, Jane became vegan, um, and you know,
looking through articles about, you know, her
legacy, her impact in, in the world, I feel like
her commitment to All animals, not only primates,
is often put to the side. Alan, you mentioned
how she was interested in sanctuaries that are
not only primate sanctuaries. What should we
say about the fact that she became vegan at such
an advanced age in 2015? you know, she was a
lifelong vegetarian, I think. But, you know,
what made her become vegan? And what does it
mean, you know, in terms of her, the legacy that
she leaves behind? Just one observation about
that. It's interesting when she came when I mentioned
when she came to force the parrot and she carried,
you know, three stuffed animals, a chimp and
a mouse and a cow. And so, of course, one There
are several stuffed animals one could use to
represent the travesties of eating animals and
factory farming. Usually, cows and pigs and chickens
are the first three that come to mind. I haven't
really thought about that, but the fact that
she carried a cow may, in fact, have been her
way of messaging to herself, perhaps. Now, I'm
getting a little behind my pay grade, but to
others, certainly, about vegetarian is better,
but it's not really there. The one other comment
I would make about that, so GFAST, where I first
met her, she works with equine and wildlife and
farmed animal sanctuaries. And she was interested
in all of that and didn't really talk to me much
about GFAST supports a good number of primate
and a few great ape sanctuaries. She didn't really
talk about that. She talked about the other sanctuaries.
And she also wondered if GFAST would be interested
in a program in, she didn't use this language,
but Global South Countries where with the sanctuaries
that support wildlife, save wildlife, if they
might find a way to also take care of some of
the dogs and cats that are in a bad way in that
environment. And so she seemed to me like it
was a multi -day conversation. It was probably
well in five minutes. And so it was all touching
and impressive both. So yeah. I think the transition
seems like it was probably pretty natural for
her. I found that I myself kind of went along
that same path. You know, when you respect and
care about animals, whether it's, you know, for
Jane, it started with the chimps, right? And
when you You see like the connection that she
established with them and and how much she sort
of you know her life revolved around them and
she understood them as individuals with feelings
and interests. You know you it's natural to start
to think about these other animals no matter
what industry they are. they are kind of being
used in, right? And so, you know, I think it
makes sense that over time as she started to
think about these bigger issues and how they
intersected with the protection of chimpanzees,
such as the environment, you're going to start
to recognize that, you know, the way we are raising
animals for food is unsustainable and contributing
to, you know, A myriad of of issues such as the
climate crisis and deforestation that of course
is impacting. You know chance and similarly i
had the same sort of growth when i was not a
vegetarian or vegan when i. You know group loving
animals and ended up you know working in a primary
lab to pursue primary conservation but it was.
my feelings starting to change about the use
of animals, of course these monkeys in labs,
but also starting to question, well, if I care
about them, why don't I care about the cow that's
on my plate? And, you know, a few years later,
then starting to recognize how the dairy and
the egg industries work and ultimately doing
my best to eliminate the use of animals in my
life. So I think it it was a pretty natural progression
for her and inspiring to see her do that and
continue to kind of be this figure that so many
people look up to when there can be so much stigma
around the term vegan or eating vegan or whatever
it, however you want to talk about it. You know,
there's always there's there's always learning
and there's always change and positive change
in all that I just observing though and of course
she wasn't an average person anyway, but having
done, you know a good amount of plant -based
nutrition work the the number of People past
the age of 80 who become vegan is at that point
in one's life is is Vanishingly small. So let's
just loading that as well. So Yeah And in any
case, I realized since her passing, how much
she meant for animal rights activists that want
to create this vegan world. I think I've seen
PETA even building kind of a space to commemorate
Jane Goodall at their headquarters. And so she
meant a lot and the fact that she became vegan,
you know, that just rooted her into, you know,
this figure, this icon of the animal rights movement.
Um, yeah. Um, in, you know, I, in preparation
for this, uh, conversation, I watched some of
her last interviews and in many of them, she
mentions. how this world is kind of dark and,
you know, we're living in such a dark era. I
would love to talk about, you know, the issues
that made her stand up, you know, take the mic
at, you know, 90 in her nineties, doing media
tours and talking about them. And, you know,
raising her voice, giving her voice for for those
issues. You know, what are those? What is this?
Darker than issues that she she was talking about
and that alarmed her so much. I would make if
I could, I would just make two apps of that,
you know, at risk of being a little bit like
a politician here and not quite answering the
question that you asked. But but but so so I
would just make a couple of observations about
her. And so one is that she always, and wrote
a book on this, always believed in hope. And
so she always saw the good side of people. As
I read what she wrote, I sometimes thought she's
more understanding and more hopeful than I am
on most days. But she always, I think always,
but frequently would see the positive side and
the opportunity that people will come to their
senses and make change. And the other thing I
would say about her is that she didn't seek fame.
And she learned that she had become this icon
that was one of the most well -known people in
the world. And she saw that as a I guess a responsibility,
and that sort of has a responsibility to utilize
that. It wasn't what she sought when she had
it, and she wouldn't waste it, that she would
utilize it for the good, for the kinds of causes
you're talking about. So I'm sorry if I did,
but I'm reflecting on it. I'm sort of in this
intellectual and emotive space about her right
now, and so that's what comes to mind for me.
Yeah, I heard her talk about how someone offered
her a private jet and she declined. How, you
know, there were big oil companies offering,
you know, funding to her nonprofits and how she
declined that important funding because again
of her commitment, deep commitment to those ethical
principles. But yeah, merrily. Well, I was just
going to say, I think, I mean, I remember one
of the times that she visited us in Ellensburg,
I think after we got that new building, she came
to see it and to see how the chimps were doing
there. And so that would have been, you know,
in the mid 90s. And, you know, the US government
was putting an embargo on somebody or sanctions
on somebody. And I remember her mentioning, just
going, oh, the sanctions are just awful, what
it's doing to the people. And I was a grad student.
So at that point in life, all I could think about
was being a graduate student and completely immersed
in that world and unaware of the news. And it
was Um, you know, so I, it makes me think even,
even then, I mean, but she was global. She was
a global person. So sort of being aware, um,
and deeply empathetic for people. Um, you know,
she just didn't live in this, in this bubble,
like she was all over the place. Um, and I, I,
I did watch that, you know, that it's sort of
morbid, but it but really though the Netflix
documentary that was recorded before she died
right so but I think that that darkness that
you're talking about was more intense because
you know I had seen her when she published Reason
for Hope you know and she really was Hopeful
and trying to inspire hope and i felt like with
that one it's that's this netflix documentary
it's like the world is is imploding and we're
running out of time. You know she still have
that message of you as an individual can do something
that but. I did. do feel like getting into American
politics and stuff because really it is bigger
than that. But I just felt like she didn't sound
as hopeful. She sounded like we're in a desperate
place. And that was the take home for me. So
yes, a very dark, dark place. Yeah, I felt the
same way listening to her. Maddie, did you want
to add something? So to be honest, I've seen
a clip from it, but I have not watched it yet.
And the reasoning being that I haven't, you know,
emotionally prepared myself, you know, for it.
I was actually at back at my alma mater at the
university of wisconsin madison doing outreach
on campus to students about the primate labs
on campus and my experience working in the lab
when i found out that she had died and um i i
just immediately burst into tears like it was
just this like overwhelming grief For someone
that I really did not know well right like I
I know that I had you know Wonderfully got to
meet her for a couple of minutes but aside from
that she was really someone that I just looked
up to and admired and yet like The heaviness
of her sort of leaving the planet and the hope
that I feel like she has always kind of represented.
Has been a lot to sort of take in, especially
because it felt a little full circle being back
on campus where I had met her and learning of
this news and you know. We're all we're all gonna
die one day right but it's just with jane i think
i was hoping it just wouldn't happen somehow
which is how i feel about like my dog for example
there's just certain you know there's certain
people that you just. You know feel like this
even bigger loss. And i don't blame her for being.
you know, for struggling to find that hope and
feeling less hopeful. Because the world right
now is, it's a really tough place. And, you know,
so we do have a lot we need to figure out and
find our place in it all, as Jane would have
wanted, in terms of reducing that harm. But Yeah,
it's, I think it's, it's just, it's, it's hard
and it's overwhelming to kind of, I don't know,
feel optimistic all the time. And, and we needed
to see probably that Jane, Jane struggles with
that too, struggled. I clearly struggled to put
Jane in past tense. If I could build on sort
of what Maddie has just brought up and The day
for me that I learned about it, I had spent the
morning, we actually had grief. counselors that
had come to Fauna, so I had zoomed into the meeting
because we experience so much loss with elderly
chimps there. And one of the things that the
grief counselors talked about was, yes, when
someone passes you, there's a loss, but that
doesn't take away all the the memories and the
things that you have. So, you know, they were
just trying to help people focus on that, which
to me was phenomenal. And then later I was on
another Zoom meeting with some sanctuary directors,
other chimps sanctuaries. And, you know, we were,
someone was looking for something and was like,
suddenly the news popped up and they said, wow,
Jane has just died. But I, I think just to sort
of play on that, to me, we have so much to be
grateful for that she was on this planet and
that she had all of the pieces in place and,
you know, what a perfect combination of someone
that had everything that she had in terms of
her personality, the way that she was able to
get her message out to people, the situations
that taught her and moved her to do what she
had done and to have an incredible, incredible
impact. And I'm just... so grateful that she
was part of the part of the planet and that she
brought all of that to the planet. And so I,
I think we have just so much to be thankful for
that way. And, and that she also was able to
do that until she was 91. I mean, she was still
giving talks. So, um, wow. Could we all be so
lucky as to go how she did with our boots on?
Alan, did you want to add something? Yeah. So
when I learned that she passed and of course
I was somber and as you said, I mean, it was...
We sort of all have in our minds that, well,
she's never going to leave this part of the universe.
So maybe because I'm obviously a much more superficial
person than my colleagues here, my thoughts and
reactions were sort of a different after that
initial. And I work from home, so I wasn't physically
around colleagues. So I had two flashbacks, and
maybe more, but two. One was video. But the fact
that Dr. Goodall introduced me to the work with
the gynecologist from veterinary global aid,
she introduced, not as two young children, but
she introduced Jane to her first baby when the
baby was just two or three months old. And so
I was looking at video that Anna sent to me and
she was just like anybody else's loving grandmother,
was the total full reaction. You would think
she was the... the family grandmother. So it
was just, you know, it was that. And then, so
that touched me a lot. And the other one was
maybe a quick humorous piece and then I'll, so,
but my wife and I were just, Ramsey was sitting
about and Ramsey was irritated at me about something
that I'm sure she had reason to be irritated
with me, you know, about and nothing monumental,
but, and so my mobile goes off and I was the
last person in the world to be on Shane's speed
dial, but she was talking to me about Anna category
is in supporting that her global aid and so she
had so dr Goodall actually called me up which
you know and so so I saw that on my phone which
and that was probably the One of two times that
ever happened. So I you know, I'm not in her
it was not in her, you know a list universe so
so but I picked up the phone and So you can imagine
your partner is like a little irritated with
you and then the phone rings and you know your
partner picked the phone up, right? And so Ramsey
gave me this look and I whispered to her, it's
Jane. And she's like, who's Jane? And I said,
Jane Goodall. And so it was like, everything
changed, of course. And whatever she's meant
to be about went away as well, of course. So
I had those kind of flashbacks, which made it
easier for me in some ways. So yeah. I'm getting
tears in my eyes just telling those stories now.
Isn't that something? So yeah. That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing. Quick question. Why do
you think she had that multi -generational effect,
you know? Younger people, middle -aged people,
older people. She touched every age ranges. How
do you explain that? I think it was very intentional
on her part, right? I mean, she wanted to be
able to reach out to younger people. And she
knew, and the Jane Goodall Institute knew, you've
got to reach out to younger people. They're going
to be the next generation. They're the ones that
are going to be making the impact. I guess it
depends on which slice of time, because she's
been in people's living rooms basically with
all the documentaries, and she wrote so many
books, and she's touching on so many different
things. I think that that's why she was able
to transect across the lifespan of people and
catch them. And, you know, also chimps are really
compelling too. So that is a pretty easy way
to get people's attention. Thank you. Any more
theories? I don't know if I have a theory, but
I just wanted to say that it was interesting
because there's obviously a generation now who
still does There's there's individuals from that
generation that do know but I also experienced
Some individuals from you know, basically who
are in college now who were like wait Can you
remind me who is Jane Goodall? What did she do
and I was just like jaw drop like what do you
mean? What did she do? What do you mean? Who
is Jane Goodall? So that was really surprising
to me and I wouldn't have necessarily even realized
that was a thing if I hadn't been at my campus
when this happened, because I did actually have
people who came up and, you know, Jane seems
to always come up because people are always asking,
how did you end up in the primate lab? Well,
I wanted to work in primate conservation like
Jane. And then I got a lot of these, oh my God,
like, because everyone was starting to learn
about the news. But there were a few individuals
who kind of looked at me and were like, Well,
can you who is she and so I was just like, oh
no, you know what this means We have to we have
to make sure that she lives on right and I you
know She has ensured that in a number of ways
but it it hurt my heart a little to think that
there's individuals who who don't know who she
is and sort of her journey of, again, sort of
beginning honed in on the chimpanzees and how
that grew to care so much about the natural world
and everyone who shares it, human and non -human.
She also, we've all talked about this, but she
met people where they are. She was there for
others. And so, I mean, that was a piece of it.
There may also be a, you know, from my wife,
who's, you know, so we're a generation younger
than Dr. Goodall, but just one. And so she, there
may also be a gender piece about having, you
know, Ramsey growing up with this. So Leakey
wanted and experienced three people that go out
in the field. But, you know, if you're learning
about her, like, oh, my God, this young woman
who, like, had no creds, right? And in the 60s,
where, you know, the madman era, right, was able
to do this. So I think for that generation, and
maybe subsequently, you know, I don't have the
right chromosomes to comment on this really thoroughly.
But I think for my wife, certainly, there was,
it was that as well. You know, and chimps, of
course, but, but, but that, how that happened
with this woman. Thank you. Um, I guess to end
this conversation, I want to ask you, how do
we, how should we, how can we honor her legacy,
her life? Um, I think, you know, the message
she brought in every interview and public appearance
was, you know, get off your couch, do something,
you know, be part of the solution, make a difference.
Um, So yeah, how do we honor her legacy? Turn
off the water when you brush your teeth You know
so that And and I think her point is is such
a simple thing, but if everybody's doing it It
will make a big impact so you know, that just
remembering it, I think I'm shocked with what
you said, Maddie, that people didn't know who
she was. And so you already said it, I mean,
we really have to have to continue. And it'll
be interesting to see how the Jane Goodall Institute
does that. They're certainly well positioned
to do that. And yeah. Yeah, I think, you know,
Jane, Jane believed in collective action and
and also like localized action like do what you
can in your own community. And I think these
are, again, powerful because it's it's empowering
and can also make some of these big overwhelming
heartbreaking issues feel a little more manageable
to handle. And, you know, in my kind of more
like the more personal issue that I have kind
of dedicated my life to that, of course, has
many intersecting components, but the animal
research industry, I continue to think about
how she really represents wanting science to
exist alongside compassion and that these things
shouldn't be separate. and how much she has sort
of influenced the scientific field and how much
more the scientific field can do to align to
the compassionate principles that Jane represented.
You know stood up to two things that are still
I think prevalent in in the scientific field
Especially when it comes to animal research like
trying to not individualize these creatures and
and that's exactly what she did not stand for
and so you know, I think she's helped give permission
to a lot of us to think critically about what
we're doing to animals and labs and animal research
in general, and, you know, help us help us speak
out, speak out about it. Alan, did you want to?
Yeah, no, I mean, my colleagues have said it.
Well, there's there's this and each of them,
you know, does it in their own work. I mean,
there's this, you know, there's doing what you
can. But there's this determination, keeping
determination and while not being Pollyannaish
about her, looking for the good side of people,
seeing hope. You could catch more flies with
agave than with vinegar. It's true. It depends
on the person what you're trying to affect change.
Sometimes a little bit of that you need to, but
her way of you know, being determined and getting
on the right side of people is a, you know, is
a lesson that, you know, I continue to try to
emulate and sometimes honor in the breach, but
I think it's a really, really good, good lesson
from Martin. It is kind of unbelievable how successful
she was at getting, you know, these true messages
of justice out there. while still having so many
people on her side. And that doesn't mean that
it immediately changed people, right? Like she
went vegan, yes, but not all of these people
who look up to her have gone vegan. But she was
able to bring a lot of these conversations, you
know, just out there on a larger scale than I
think many people have successfully been able
to do. I think that that shows who she is and
and how um Yeah, I don't know I mean I just I
just think of that as something that is worth
considering as activists and as people who care
about the world humans and and non -humans and
and how we can You know make things make things
better and reduce suffering Yeah, what a pleasure
to have welcomed the three of you who greatly
valued Dr. Jane Goddall. And thank you so much
for your answers, for your insights, and for
sharing your dear memories of her and of what
she brought in your life. Thank you. In the place
where I am now, I look back over my life. I look
back at the world I've left behind. What message
do I want to leave? I want to make sure that
you all understand that each and every one of
you has a role to play. You may not know it,
you may not find it, but your life matters and
you are here for a reason. And I just hope that
that reason will become apparent as you live
through your life. I want you to know that whether
or not you find that role that you're supposed
to play, your life does matter, and that every
single day you live, you make a difference in
the world. And you get to choose the difference
that you make. I want you to understand that
we are part of the natural world. And even today,
where the planet is dark, there still is hope.
Don't lose hope. If you lose hope, you become
apathetic and do nothing. And if you want to
save what is still beautiful in this world, if
you want to save the planet for the future generations,
your grandchildren, their grandchildren, then
think about the actions you take each day. Because
multiplied a million, a billion times, even small
actions, will make for great change. I just hope
that you understand that this life on planet
Earth isn't the end. I believe, and now I know,
that there is life beyond death, that consciousness
survives. I can't tell you from where I am secrets
that are not mine to share. I can't tell you
what you will find when you leave planet Earth.
But I want you to know that your life on planet
Earth will make some difference in the kind of
life that you find after you die. Above all,
I want you to think about the fact that we are
part, when we're on planet Earth, we are part
of Mother Nature. We depend on Mother Nature
for clean air, for water, for food, for clothing,
for everything. And as we destroy one ecosystem
after another, as we create worse climate change,
worse loss of diversity, we have to do everything
in our power to make the world a better place.
With the children alive today, and for those
that will follow. You have it in your power to
make a difference. Don't give up. There is a
future for you. Do your best while you're still
on this beautiful planet Earth that I look down
upon from where I am now. God bless you all.