WEBVTT

00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:03.109
Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan,

00:00:03.669 --> 00:00:06.429
and did you know that most of the plant -based

00:00:06.429 --> 00:00:10.869
food you are eating is grown using animal products

00:00:10.869 --> 00:00:15.410
as fertilizers? Manure, blood meal, bone meal,

00:00:15.769 --> 00:00:19.030
feather meal, and fish emulsion all obtained

00:00:19.030 --> 00:00:22.649
from the animal exploitation industry. But there

00:00:22.649 --> 00:00:26.350
is a better, safer, more sustainable, and ethical

00:00:26.350 --> 00:00:31.960
alternative Vegan farming, today's topic. Have

00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:35.619
you ever heard of vegan farming? Vegan agriculture

00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:39.039
uses plant -based techniques instead of animal

00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:43.179
products to grow crops. So for example, instead

00:00:43.179 --> 00:00:47.100
of using shrimp compost for fertilization, the

00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:50.979
vegan farmer will use vegetable compost, chipped

00:00:50.979 --> 00:00:54.619
branch wood, or mulch. To discuss this topic,

00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:58.340
I have with me Meg Kelly. Meg co -founded the

00:00:58.340 --> 00:01:01.799
Veganic Agriculture Network. She also teaches

00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:05.659
the Learn Veganic Online Gardening course to

00:01:05.659 --> 00:01:09.120
empower people around the world to grow their

00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:13.319
own fruits and veggies at home. We discussed

00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:18.299
why organic farming is problematic. The arsenic

00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:22.739
in rice. The E. coli in lettuce. What it means

00:01:22.739 --> 00:01:26.950
to be vegan when the plants you are eating were

00:01:26.950 --> 00:01:31.569
grown with animal products and much more. To

00:01:31.569 --> 00:01:35.230
learn more about vegan farming, sign up for free

00:01:35.230 --> 00:01:40.390
to the 2025 edition of the vegan summit. It is

00:01:40.390 --> 00:01:46.730
100 % virtual and again 100 % free. It is from

00:01:46.730 --> 00:01:51.890
November 7 to November 9. Get your ticket now

00:01:51.890 --> 00:01:56.069
and connect with amazing speakers. I will definitely

00:01:56.069 --> 00:01:58.950
be there. Spread the world that this is happening.

00:01:59.569 --> 00:02:01.890
You can share this episode with your friends.

00:02:02.629 --> 00:02:06.049
Thank you. Meg, this is a wonderful time to have

00:02:06.049 --> 00:02:09.349
you on because I've been thinking a lot about

00:02:09.349 --> 00:02:14.930
what it means to be vegan. So I've recorded an

00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:20.409
episode on pet food and the question of, you

00:02:20.409 --> 00:02:24.099
know, are you really vegan if you have Dogs and

00:02:24.099 --> 00:02:28.879
cats and you feed them just dead animals Does

00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:32.039
that you know really make you vegan and then

00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:35.099
I did an episode on backyard chickens and the

00:02:35.099 --> 00:02:40.639
same question Came back. Is it vegan to eat backyard

00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:45.539
eggs and support the backyard industry? And now

00:02:45.539 --> 00:02:51.009
we're going to talk about How we cultivate? plants,

00:02:51.169 --> 00:02:55.530
how the way we cultivate plants might not be

00:02:55.530 --> 00:03:01.409
vegan. Is that a good way of framing this conversation?

00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:06.460
Fruits and vegetables and legumes and nuts and

00:03:06.460 --> 00:03:08.400
grains and other plant foods that we eat are

00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.759
often fertilized with non -vegan fertilizers.

00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:14.560
So that can be things like blood meal or bone

00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:17.539
meal or fish emulsion or manure from factory

00:03:17.539 --> 00:03:21.740
farms. And so oftentimes these sort of byproducts

00:03:21.740 --> 00:03:24.460
of animal industries are used to fertilize what

00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:28.240
we generally consider to be vegan foods. So when

00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.819
it comes to that definition of veganism, though,

00:03:30.819 --> 00:03:34.009
when we look back at the definition, we can look

00:03:34.009 --> 00:03:36.629
at that element of, you know, being vegan is

00:03:36.629 --> 00:03:40.569
reducing animal suffering insofar as it's practicable.

00:03:41.050 --> 00:03:43.129
And so, you know, I would say that if someone

00:03:43.129 --> 00:03:45.909
goes to the grocery store and buys fruits and

00:03:45.909 --> 00:03:48.370
vegetables and legumes and nuts and grains and

00:03:48.370 --> 00:03:51.030
eats them, yes, we can consider that, you know,

00:03:51.150 --> 00:03:53.389
vegan in and of itself, because in our modern

00:03:53.389 --> 00:03:56.050
society, that's as vegan as it gets. Whereas

00:03:56.050 --> 00:03:57.590
something like backyard chickens is a different

00:03:57.590 --> 00:03:59.310
story, because that's people actually, you know,

00:03:59.490 --> 00:04:01.409
bringing in domesticated chickens intentionally,

00:04:01.490 --> 00:04:05.099
even though they didn't need to do that. But

00:04:05.099 --> 00:04:09.539
it can be difficult for us to have control over

00:04:09.539 --> 00:04:11.840
where our food comes from when we're buying it

00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:13.860
from grocery stores. We won't always know how

00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:16.500
it's fertilized, but what we're working on is

00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:19.050
showing people how at the very least when they're

00:04:19.050 --> 00:04:21.290
growing their own food in garden scenarios, how

00:04:21.290 --> 00:04:23.930
they can make that vegan. Because, for example,

00:04:24.149 --> 00:04:26.610
as a vegan who gardens, well, it wouldn't be

00:04:26.610 --> 00:04:29.029
particularly vegan if I went and bought a box

00:04:29.029 --> 00:04:31.290
of blood meal or a box of bone meal. That would

00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:35.240
certainly not be a vegan -friendly action. Uh,

00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:37.480
whereas, uh, we can look at other ways we can

00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:39.720
grow our fruits and veggies using vegan techniques.

00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.500
And what we're working to do is show people how

00:04:42.500 --> 00:04:45.339
on farm scales, people are already growing veganically

00:04:45.339 --> 00:04:48.519
on farms. Cause we would love to see much like

00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:50.740
we have organic food available to us, which is

00:04:50.740 --> 00:04:53.120
unfortunately often fertilized with animal products.

00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:55.519
We'd like to see a future in which people can

00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.240
have that option of choosing to eat veganic and

00:04:58.240 --> 00:04:59.980
for that to become more and more widespread.

00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.740
That's that's wonderful. And that's. part of

00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:07.879
being vegan, taking control over your food choices.

00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:12.060
I did not pay much attention to the products

00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:15.939
I was purchasing. Never really paid attention

00:05:15.939 --> 00:05:18.699
to what was on my plate before becoming vegan.

00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:23.040
And I feel that's a discussion we don't often

00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:28.720
have on how much veganism is also about empowering

00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:34.170
people as consumers. For sure. And again, as

00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:37.230
consumers, sometimes we are limited in what choices

00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:40.069
are available. So I think as consumers, we're

00:05:40.069 --> 00:05:42.730
always in that position of making the best possible

00:05:42.730 --> 00:05:45.009
choice we can from the options that are available

00:05:45.009 --> 00:05:48.670
to us. But sometimes there will be these kind

00:05:48.670 --> 00:05:52.319
of secondary or tertiary animal products that

00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.500
are used somewhere in the production line. And

00:05:54.500 --> 00:05:56.160
I think it's important for us to become aware

00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.560
of that, because it's only when consumers are

00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.540
aware of that, that we can start putting some

00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:03.300
pressure on, that we can start asking people

00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:05.779
even about it. If we're not aware of it, we can't

00:06:05.779 --> 00:06:08.980
ask people about it. And you know, I think that

00:06:08.980 --> 00:06:13.230
there's a lot of potential in cities that have

00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:16.009
a decent population base of, you know, vegans

00:06:16.009 --> 00:06:18.449
living in the same area, I think it would be

00:06:18.449 --> 00:06:22.930
completely possible to have a collaboration with

00:06:22.930 --> 00:06:26.029
a local farmer to say, could you produce veganically

00:06:26.029 --> 00:06:28.970
for us? We have 50 people who are willing to

00:06:28.970 --> 00:06:32.490
prepay for, you know, veganic produce baskets

00:06:32.490 --> 00:06:34.649
for the season. And so, you know, with something

00:06:34.649 --> 00:06:38.569
like a CSA model, and, you know, I think that

00:06:38.569 --> 00:06:42.269
there's vegans who have acres of land available

00:06:42.269 --> 00:06:44.709
too, who aren't necessarily using it for much,

00:06:44.730 --> 00:06:46.250
and there's other young vegans who would like

00:06:46.250 --> 00:06:49.230
to farm. So if we can get collaborations going

00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:51.970
on with one vegan who has a few acres and could

00:06:51.970 --> 00:06:55.110
maybe spare one or two acres, some vegans who

00:06:55.110 --> 00:06:57.009
would like to farm, and then some other vegans

00:06:57.009 --> 00:06:59.329
who would like to buy that produce, I think we

00:06:59.329 --> 00:07:03.269
can create some consumer -led models to make

00:07:03.269 --> 00:07:07.189
veganic fruits and veggies and other foods available

00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:09.680
to those who would like it. I guess I would like

00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.439
to spend some time on the why. Why should we

00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.860
go this far? Why should we be interested in supporting

00:07:17.860 --> 00:07:23.019
vegan farming? You mentioned how being vegan

00:07:23.019 --> 00:07:27.680
is making some lifestyle choices, practical ones,

00:07:28.259 --> 00:07:32.500
as much as possible to limit our negative impact

00:07:32.500 --> 00:07:36.420
on others' lives. What do you make of vegans

00:07:36.420 --> 00:07:40.209
who might say, well, vegan farming is going too

00:07:40.209 --> 00:07:46.189
far. It's a mountain that is too tall to climb.

00:07:46.949 --> 00:07:49.709
Well, I think if we imagine a future in which

00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:52.790
there's no longer animal exploitation, or at

00:07:52.790 --> 00:07:55.370
least that it's been significantly reduced. And

00:07:55.370 --> 00:07:58.550
if we imagine a future where our food production

00:07:58.550 --> 00:08:01.170
is actually sustainable, which is directions

00:08:01.170 --> 00:08:04.550
we want to head, I mean, the sustainability aspect

00:08:04.550 --> 00:08:09.149
concerns everyone. And The fact of the matter

00:08:09.149 --> 00:08:13.810
is the current system for producing food that's

00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:18.649
very animal product heavy is completely unsustainable

00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:20.990
and obviously causes a huge amount of animal

00:08:20.990 --> 00:08:24.250
cruelty. If we want to move away from that, we

00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:28.069
need vegan agriculture. And so if we imagine

00:08:28.069 --> 00:08:33.350
a system where we have a cleaner world with cleaner

00:08:33.350 --> 00:08:37.470
rivers and cleaner air, where our food production

00:08:37.470 --> 00:08:41.090
uses less fossil fuels, where our food production

00:08:41.090 --> 00:08:44.909
uses less land, where it frees up land for rewilding

00:08:44.909 --> 00:08:47.870
or for humans to have more housing or whatever

00:08:47.870 --> 00:08:51.690
it may be. If we want that future, veganic growing

00:08:51.690 --> 00:08:54.429
is an essential part of it, whereas our current

00:08:54.429 --> 00:08:58.350
system is the system that is destroying the earth

00:08:58.350 --> 00:09:01.870
in many ways. And even if we extract ourselves

00:09:01.870 --> 00:09:04.549
from the idea of eating animals directly, well,

00:09:04.590 --> 00:09:08.710
if our fruits and veggies and other plant foods

00:09:08.710 --> 00:09:11.330
are fertilized with animal agriculture, then

00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:14.129
it's still tied back to animal agriculture. And

00:09:14.129 --> 00:09:16.250
so it's important right now that we start to

00:09:16.250 --> 00:09:18.529
put that groundwork in place for a transition.

00:09:18.710 --> 00:09:21.629
This is, you know, one of the key elements of

00:09:21.629 --> 00:09:23.970
a plant -based transition, if we're imagining

00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:28.190
a vegan or nearly vegan future. Let's talk about

00:09:28.190 --> 00:09:32.190
all the harm that non -veganic farming is doing,

00:09:32.330 --> 00:09:35.269
but But first, give us an idea of the scale of

00:09:35.269 --> 00:09:40.230
it. So are you saying that all agriculture uses

00:09:40.230 --> 00:09:46.289
animal, I guess, manure and all of that to grow

00:09:46.289 --> 00:09:50.509
their crops? The crops may have been and may

00:09:50.509 --> 00:09:53.549
not have been and we don't know. Unless you actually

00:09:53.549 --> 00:09:55.710
speak with individual farmers and ask them about

00:09:55.710 --> 00:09:57.990
their techniques, we don't necessarily know.

00:09:59.169 --> 00:10:02.450
In organic farming, if we look at organic, organic

00:10:02.450 --> 00:10:04.909
essentially means that the fertilizers aren't

00:10:04.909 --> 00:10:07.490
chemical in origin. So with organic farming,

00:10:07.649 --> 00:10:10.870
the fertilizers can be animal plant or mineral

00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:14.269
in origin. And so organic farms very frequently

00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:18.529
use animal products as fertilizer, often from

00:10:18.529 --> 00:10:21.529
very non -organic farms. So Ryan, you're based

00:10:21.529 --> 00:10:25.809
here in Quebec, and so am I. In Quebec, there's

00:10:25.809 --> 00:10:30.769
a large chicken industry with all of these hens

00:10:30.769 --> 00:10:34.029
laying eggs in factory farm conditions. Even

00:10:34.029 --> 00:10:37.990
if that's completely non -organic, conditions

00:10:37.990 --> 00:10:39.710
and the meat and the eggs wouldn't be considered

00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:42.889
organic, the feces from that can be used as a

00:10:42.889 --> 00:10:45.470
fertilizer in organic agriculture, which means

00:10:45.470 --> 00:10:50.250
that these animal products oftentimes bring things

00:10:50.250 --> 00:10:53.159
like you know, heavy metals and antibiotic residues

00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:55.399
into organic agriculture where it doesn't really

00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.220
belong. And then when we look at kind of standard

00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.159
agriculture where it's not organic, oftentimes

00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.019
they're using chemical fertilizers, but they

00:11:04.019 --> 00:11:07.240
may also be using animal -based fertilizers also.

00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.360
So even if they're using chemicals, they might

00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:13.710
also use animal fertilizers. And we just don't

00:11:13.710 --> 00:11:16.269
know. And chemical fertilizers have their own

00:11:16.269 --> 00:11:19.370
issues. Chemical fertilizers have issues related

00:11:19.370 --> 00:11:23.750
to the very high fossil fuel impact of creating

00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:27.809
chemical nitrogen, the big impact related to

00:11:27.809 --> 00:11:32.809
the mining of certain chemical fertilizers. And

00:11:32.809 --> 00:11:35.870
there's a lot of runoff from chemical fertilizers

00:11:35.870 --> 00:11:38.169
into rivers that have very negative impacts on

00:11:38.169 --> 00:11:42.379
aquatic life. chemical fertilizers can volatilize

00:11:42.379 --> 00:11:44.720
back into the air, leading to greenhouse gases.

00:11:45.379 --> 00:11:48.240
So even though chemical fertilizers can sound

00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.340
like a better solution, you know, compared to

00:11:51.340 --> 00:11:54.059
animal products, they're still problematic. And

00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.120
so, and the fact of the matter is, even if we

00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.919
buy non -organic food, it might still be fertilized

00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.440
with animal products anyway. So with veganic,

00:12:01.460 --> 00:12:03.529
what we're doing is we're essentially taking

00:12:03.529 --> 00:12:05.769
all the good things about organic, because there

00:12:05.769 --> 00:12:08.809
are so many good things about organic in terms

00:12:08.809 --> 00:12:11.769
of working with wildlife more, building up soil,

00:12:12.250 --> 00:12:17.870
having more of a polyculture, and just respecting

00:12:17.870 --> 00:12:20.269
the earth more. But the issue with organic is

00:12:20.269 --> 00:12:22.450
there's a lot of animal products used in it,

00:12:22.570 --> 00:12:25.669
which doesn't align with our values and isn't

00:12:25.669 --> 00:12:28.950
sustainable. And so basically with veganic, what

00:12:28.950 --> 00:12:32.470
we're doing is we're taking the basis that organic

00:12:32.470 --> 00:12:35.110
agriculture has already created and we're going

00:12:35.110 --> 00:12:37.649
one step further by removing those animal products

00:12:37.649 --> 00:12:41.710
and using plant -based organic fertilizers. That's

00:12:41.710 --> 00:12:47.549
crazy. How come the organic people, the organic

00:12:47.549 --> 00:12:50.009
community, I don't know if they have a name,

00:12:50.929 --> 00:12:55.529
is not aware of that harmful aspect of organic

00:12:55.529 --> 00:13:00.049
farming? Is it a blind spot for them? I think

00:13:00.049 --> 00:13:02.710
to some degree, I mean, one thing is we have

00:13:02.710 --> 00:13:06.769
such a, you know, meat -centric society that

00:13:06.769 --> 00:13:10.429
there are a lot of animal products floating around

00:13:10.429 --> 00:13:12.769
that, you know, these kind of byproducts of animal

00:13:12.769 --> 00:13:15.210
industries that sometimes people don't know what

00:13:15.210 --> 00:13:19.549
to do with. So sometimes manure can be obtained

00:13:19.549 --> 00:13:24.570
fairly easily. I think in the organic community,

00:13:24.990 --> 00:13:27.250
oftentimes manure is associated with that thing

00:13:27.250 --> 00:13:28.950
that builds, as being that thing that builds

00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:32.409
up the soil. But, you know, one thing that we

00:13:32.409 --> 00:13:36.289
remind people is that animals don't create nutrients.

00:13:36.830 --> 00:13:40.269
So in animal manure, you'll find things like

00:13:40.269 --> 00:13:43.830
nitrogen or potassium that plants need in order

00:13:43.830 --> 00:13:47.029
to grow. But all of those nutrients that are

00:13:47.029 --> 00:13:49.450
in the manure came from the plants that the animal

00:13:49.450 --> 00:13:52.230
ate. So the animal did not produced nitrogen,

00:13:52.309 --> 00:13:55.029
the animal didn't produce calcium or phosphorus

00:13:55.029 --> 00:13:58.169
or anything like that. So much in the same way

00:13:58.169 --> 00:14:00.350
that people say, well, milk is a great source

00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:04.669
of calcium. It's like, well, the cow ate calcium

00:14:04.669 --> 00:14:07.230
and then that calcium went in the milk, but you

00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:09.549
could have just eaten a plant to begin with that

00:14:09.549 --> 00:14:12.750
was high in calcium yourself. And it's similar

00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:14.490
with manure that people say, well, manure is

00:14:14.490 --> 00:14:18.350
a great source of nitrogen and it contains nitrogen,

00:14:18.350 --> 00:14:20.980
but it's not the source of the nitrogen. The

00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:23.559
source of the nitrogen is the plants that the

00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:27.399
cow ate. And those plants get nitrogen from the

00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.519
air. There are some wonderful plants that are

00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:32.659
actually able to get nitrogen from the air. So

00:14:32.659 --> 00:14:37.100
all of our legume plants, like beans and peas

00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:39.360
and alfalfa and clover, they can actually just

00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.200
take nitrogen from the air. And that's why in

00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.080
my garden, I actually use alfalfa pellets as

00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.809
a form of fertilizer, whereas on a goat farm

00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:52.110
for example, they would feed alfalfa pellets

00:14:52.110 --> 00:14:55.210
to a goat and then use the manure as fertilizer,

00:14:55.250 --> 00:14:57.669
but I'm using the alfalfa pellets directly, and

00:14:57.669 --> 00:14:59.590
one of my gardens is actually fertilized with

00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:02.669
hay. So instead of hay being fed to a cow and

00:15:02.669 --> 00:15:05.690
then using manure, I'm just using hay directly

00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:08.450
to fertilize my garden, and it's more of a whole

00:15:08.450 --> 00:15:10.509
food source. There's nothing that has been taken

00:15:10.509 --> 00:15:12.830
out of it by an animal. It's actually got more

00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:18.370
nutrients than manure would have. So with something

00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:20.690
like manure, for example, sometimes people will

00:15:20.690 --> 00:15:23.490
say, well, the animals kind of broken it down,

00:15:23.549 --> 00:15:26.309
they've started decomposing it. But in my garden,

00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:30.950
what I'm focusing on is having a very biodiverse

00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:35.570
and lively soil life. So by putting things like

00:15:35.570 --> 00:15:37.960
hay, on top of my garden. So I'm just putting

00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.440
it on the soil as a mulch. It will just be broken

00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.159
down by the microorganisms in my soil. So I'm

00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:46.799
basically providing habitat and a food source

00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:49.899
for natural microorganisms. So one thing that

00:15:49.899 --> 00:15:53.279
we say about veganic is veganic gardens and farms

00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.879
aren't free from animals, but rather veganic

00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:57.860
gardens and farms are a place where all the animals

00:15:57.860 --> 00:16:01.110
are free. Because we are really welcoming animals

00:16:01.110 --> 00:16:04.590
in and working with natural systems. It's just

00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:07.509
that in veganic, we're working in collaboration

00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:10.309
with local wildlife and providing them with habitat

00:16:10.309 --> 00:16:14.250
and food sources rather than having domesticated

00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:16.429
animals that have been selectively bred for thousands

00:16:16.429 --> 00:16:18.629
of years and that have been, you know, turned,

00:16:19.210 --> 00:16:22.549
you know, monetized by our system, you know,

00:16:22.610 --> 00:16:25.509
and exploited for generations. We're avoiding

00:16:25.509 --> 00:16:29.580
the exploitation. And instead of participating

00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:33.639
in an exploitation, we're participating in the

00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.460
ecosystem around us. Let's get back to what you

00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:42.039
said about chicken feces and how they contain

00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:49.059
antibiotics and I'm sure hormones and other nasty

00:16:49.059 --> 00:16:54.559
stuff that you would find in excrements, because

00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:59.220
that's the body. uh, evacuating every bad thing

00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:03.019
that, that is in a organism. I think we understand

00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:07.240
that. How dangerous is that for someone who will

00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:13.920
then eat the, uh, the, the products of that fertilization

00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:18.299
process? So I think the most dangerous thing

00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:21.099
directly to human health would be, uh, some of

00:17:21.099 --> 00:17:23.529
the best bacterial contamination that can come

00:17:23.529 --> 00:17:26.390
with animal feces. So things like salmonella

00:17:26.390 --> 00:17:31.730
and E. coli. And occasionally we hear about outbreaks

00:17:31.730 --> 00:17:34.950
where there's a recall of spinach or recall of

00:17:34.950 --> 00:17:37.009
lettuce and then people think that there's a

00:17:37.009 --> 00:17:40.539
problem with spinach and lettuce. but it's actually

00:17:40.539 --> 00:17:43.640
in general fecal contamination. And that fecal

00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.019
contamination can come from fertilizers. Fecal

00:17:47.019 --> 00:17:49.660
contamination can also come from humans, for

00:17:49.660 --> 00:17:51.759
example, you know, during the harvesting process,

00:17:51.980 --> 00:17:53.819
if people have unwashed hands or things like

00:17:53.819 --> 00:17:55.940
that, there are other ways that fecal contamination

00:17:55.940 --> 00:17:58.619
can happen. But usually when we're looking at

00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:02.180
things like spinach outbreaks and lettuce outbreaks

00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:06.200
and these recalls and people getting sick, usually

00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.980
it's from a manure source. And that can be from

00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:12.180
a manure source that is sprayed directly on those

00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:15.119
fields. And in some cases, it can be manure that

00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:17.599
kind of washes in. It can be manure that washes

00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.039
in from the field next to it or even from a factory

00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.700
farm that's nearby. But that's really one of

00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.650
the nice advantages of growing veganically is

00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:29.950
we don't need to worry nearly as much about some

00:18:29.950 --> 00:18:32.349
of these bacterial issues. That's not to say

00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:35.109
that there can never be any bacterial contamination

00:18:35.109 --> 00:18:39.430
in a veganic system, but it's going to be very,

00:18:39.430 --> 00:18:42.670
very significantly reduced. So that's the thing

00:18:42.670 --> 00:18:45.450
that would cause people to become sick in a more

00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:48.509
immediate sense. But when we look, for example,

00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.970
at rice that's grown in the US, you know, organic

00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:56.930
rice in the US, there's arsenic contamination

00:18:56.930 --> 00:19:00.130
in the organic rice supply. And that's because

00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:03.690
of multiple sources of arsenic, but one of them

00:19:03.690 --> 00:19:07.450
was related to the fact that chickens used to

00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:11.970
be fed arsenic as something that kind of helped

00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:14.799
keep the parasites down in their bodies. And

00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:16.339
then they were kind of pooing that out. That

00:19:16.339 --> 00:19:19.380
was spread out on rice fields. So that's not

00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:21.819
the only source of arsenic in rice, but it's

00:19:21.819 --> 00:19:26.559
one of the root causes. And so I don't think

00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:28.420
that's still being practiced today with arsenic

00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:30.279
being fed to chickens, but I think it was practiced

00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.799
until relatively recently. And so there's all

00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.630
of these ways in which I substances that we really

00:19:37.630 --> 00:19:40.369
don't want in our food system can end up in our

00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:42.869
food system because of animal products. Thinking

00:19:42.869 --> 00:19:49.069
about all the cross contamination scenarios possible.

00:19:50.289 --> 00:19:54.950
Yeah, it's just disgusting. I mean, I feel like

00:19:54.950 --> 00:19:58.769
if we told people that human feces were used

00:19:58.769 --> 00:20:03.569
to grow their crops, they would get such a bad

00:20:03.950 --> 00:20:08.109
you know, instinctive reaction. But if it's animal

00:20:08.109 --> 00:20:12.329
feces, then, oh, it's perfectly acceptable. How

00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:15.250
do you explain that double standard speciesism?

00:20:15.789 --> 00:20:18.089
Well, I mean, the interesting thing is human

00:20:18.089 --> 00:20:21.529
feces is sometimes used in our agricultural system.

00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:27.359
And if somebody has a human -ure system at home

00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.039
and they know what they're eating, they know

00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.640
that there's just inputs from one or two people

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.940
and they're doing it with all the best standards,

00:20:36.019 --> 00:20:39.579
that can actually be a great way to recycle nutrients.

00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:43.500
But you have to, it has to be... allowed in the

00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:45.900
area that you're living and you have to be very

00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.819
very careful about how you do it. And I don't

00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.039
practice that personally because I don't have

00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.220
a great setup for it and I would personally have

00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:56.519
a bit of an ick factor as you mentioned. But

00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:01.059
in the kind of larger agricultural system there

00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:05.839
are sometimes the residues of basically sewage

00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.859
that can be used on farms and there's a lot of

00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:13.259
farms that got put in a really tough position

00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:15.960
with that because this was touted as something

00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:17.759
that was environmentally friendly, you know,

00:21:17.779 --> 00:21:21.359
we're going to kind of compost down or dry out,

00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.420
you know, human sewage, it can be added to farms

00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:27.140
and it's a, you know, great source of nutrients

00:21:27.140 --> 00:21:29.859
that's super ecological and some farmers got

00:21:29.859 --> 00:21:32.140
on board and now their fields are contaminated

00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:36.359
for centuries because basically human sewage

00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.170
waste also involves Industrial waste involves

00:21:40.170 --> 00:21:42.829
whatever else happened to run down the storm

00:21:42.829 --> 00:21:46.490
drains. You know, if you think about even all

00:21:46.490 --> 00:21:48.529
the cars that are driving by and the contaminants

00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:50.329
that come off of cars and that getting washed

00:21:50.329 --> 00:21:54.910
into the sewage system. So if anyone ever sees

00:21:54.910 --> 00:21:57.269
anything that contains human waste, I would not

00:21:57.269 --> 00:22:01.109
suggest using it because the level of contamination

00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:04.250
is especially high. But in terms of the ick factor,

00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:07.720
Honestly, I think a lot of people do find it

00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:09.579
a little bit icky. We just don't tend to think

00:22:09.579 --> 00:22:14.720
about it very much. And I think also a lot of

00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.880
people just consider it necessary. And so, you

00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.460
know, interestingly, there's a lot of people

00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:26.160
who grew up being icked out by the idea of eating

00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.579
animals. You know, I know that when I was younger,

00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.660
I thought the idea of eating animals was gross,

00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:35.660
but there was certainly you know, a while in

00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:38.700
my youth where I was also confused about is this

00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:42.539
necessary and what are the alternatives and what

00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:44.819
else would I eat and things like that. And I

00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:46.619
think when it comes to farming and gardening,

00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:49.319
you know, when people do even think about things

00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.539
like manure, sometimes they just think it's necessary.

00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:56.299
And if you look at gardening blogs and books

00:22:56.299 --> 00:22:59.619
and websites, it'll just keep reinforcing. this

00:22:59.619 --> 00:23:02.599
idea when people say hey my tomatoes are having

00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:04.660
this issue people will be like add bone meal

00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:09.819
and you know or add animal feces and I think

00:23:09.819 --> 00:23:12.960
it's something that's cheap and prevalent and

00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.819
that people are just so accustomed to that most

00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:19.299
folks aren't calling it into question very much

00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:21.700
and one thing I actually find that's really interesting

00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:24.400
is some of the farmers who we've spoken with

00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:30.430
the farmers don't always start from the angle

00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:33.150
of, I'm a vegan, I believe in animal rights,

00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:35.089
and so I'm going to farm veganically. Some of

00:23:35.089 --> 00:23:37.509
them do, for sure. But some of them are starting

00:23:37.509 --> 00:23:42.069
from that angle of, I don't want to bring contaminants

00:23:42.069 --> 00:23:45.569
onto my land, or I want to be as self -sufficient

00:23:45.569 --> 00:23:48.490
as possible, and I don't like the fact that bringing

00:23:48.490 --> 00:23:52.099
in manure would mean that I'd actually have a

00:23:52.099 --> 00:23:54.500
much bigger land footprint if you look at kind

00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:56.579
of the whole life cycle of what I'm growing.

00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.539
You know, I don't want to have to import stuff

00:23:59.539 --> 00:24:03.200
in with trucks. I don't want to drain fertility

00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.880
from other lands. And so some folks who have

00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:07.980
really started from that, you know, I want to

00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:10.160
be more self -sufficient and as ecological as

00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.160
possible, have actually ended up going toward

00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:17.140
veganic because if somebody decides, for example,

00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.130
that they want to produce their own manure on

00:24:20.130 --> 00:24:22.869
site by having cows, for example. The amount

00:24:22.869 --> 00:24:26.130
of land that takes is so significant compared

00:24:26.130 --> 00:24:30.589
to just doing it in a veganic way. And also,

00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:33.789
you know, people sometimes think of manure as

00:24:33.789 --> 00:24:36.710
being this fast solution because, you know, it's

00:24:36.710 --> 00:24:41.470
already partly broken down and it can fertilize

00:24:41.470 --> 00:24:43.410
quickly. But the thing is, you know, if someone's

00:24:43.410 --> 00:24:46.859
producing their own manure, they have to let

00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:50.220
that sit and compost for several months because

00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:53.799
of the issues like E. coli and salmonella. Whereas

00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:58.740
when our vegan farmers that we collaborate with,

00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:01.920
when they produce something like alfalfa or clover,

00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:05.019
which are again these wonderful, wonderful plants

00:25:05.019 --> 00:25:08.630
that are able to get nitrogen from the air. they'll

00:25:08.630 --> 00:25:11.190
grow things like alfalfa and clover to use as

00:25:11.190 --> 00:25:13.509
a fertilizer for their other plants and they

00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:16.089
can use them right away. We've spoken to farmers

00:25:16.089 --> 00:25:18.970
who have said that switching to veganic for them,

00:25:19.589 --> 00:25:22.309
one of the benefits that they didn't imagine

00:25:22.309 --> 00:25:25.130
coming was just the straight -up peace of mind,

00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:28.210
the relaxation, knowing that they weren't going

00:25:28.210 --> 00:25:31.789
to poison any of their customers, knowing that

00:25:31.789 --> 00:25:34.329
they could use these plant materials right away

00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:37.880
in their fields and they didn't have that worry

00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:40.319
and that stress that they had with manure, because

00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:42.579
with manure, they were like, okay, is it decomposed

00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:45.619
enough? Is this okay to use? Is it free from

00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:47.980
contaminants? Whereas once they switched to plants,

00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.839
they were like, oh, I just cut down some clover.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.740
I'll just put it on my fields right away and,

00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:54.440
or mix it in with the soil and it's just going

00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:56.839
to decompose there. And I no longer have to worry

00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.720
about that ick factor and that ick factor of,

00:25:59.859 --> 00:26:01.720
you know, is it straight up going to make other

00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:04.880
people sick? Interesting point. You mentioned

00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:11.400
how Sometimes we get those alerts that your lettuce

00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:16.859
is contaminated with E. coli and don't eat that.

00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.839
So there is a level of control from the government.

00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:28.900
But how tight is that control? And what about

00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:32.259
developing countries? Do we know what they're

00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:35.259
up to? Because they're not under the supervision

00:26:35.259 --> 00:26:40.849
of the Canadian government or any developing

00:26:40.849 --> 00:26:44.089
developed countries government where I would

00:26:44.089 --> 00:26:46.910
assume that you know rules around agriculture

00:26:46.910 --> 00:26:54.109
are following higher standards so do you know

00:26:54.109 --> 00:27:00.289
anything about how how much manure or if they

00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:07.440
use you know sometimes maybe human waste to grow

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.740
crops in developing countries? It's a good question.

00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:13.539
I don't think I'm the best person to answer it.

00:27:14.019 --> 00:27:17.359
It's very, very difficult to keep up on which

00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:19.640
country uses which technique and what are the

00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:21.980
regulations, even between some of the countries

00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:24.660
that I interact with the most between Canada,

00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:27.799
the US and England. It can be quite difficult

00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:31.190
for us to keep up on. What are the loopholes?

00:27:31.349 --> 00:27:33.289
What are the most common practices? What are

00:27:33.289 --> 00:27:36.609
the majority of farms doing? Because each country

00:27:36.609 --> 00:27:40.109
can have its differences. For us, our focus is

00:27:40.109 --> 00:27:42.509
really looking at how can people move away from

00:27:42.509 --> 00:27:44.990
animal products and switch to plant -based products.

00:27:45.049 --> 00:27:49.710
So we put almost our entire focus on sort of

00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:51.609
research and development and knowledge building

00:27:51.609 --> 00:27:55.720
in terms of how can we practically put plant

00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:59.940
-based practices into action and we'll be talking

00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:02.000
a little bit about the veganic summit that's

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.819
coming up this November 7th to 9th that everyone's

00:28:04.819 --> 00:28:08.140
invited to but we have some speakers joining

00:28:08.140 --> 00:28:11.720
us from Uganda and India who are putting veganic

00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:16.740
practices into place in their regions and one

00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:19.940
thing I love about veganic practices is how universally

00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:22.480
applicable they are. So when we look at things

00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:28.839
like nitrogen fixing plants like clovers or using

00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:34.819
grasses and compost and leaves for soil fertility.

00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:37.880
These are practices that we can really put in

00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.720
place in so many different countries. So that's

00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.940
what I'm most focused on and very excited to

00:28:43.940 --> 00:28:48.519
see how applicable veganic is in so many different

00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:51.119
countries and so many different climates. Also,

00:28:51.140 --> 00:28:53.680
what about the farmers? You know, we talked about

00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:57.859
the consumers, but what about the farmers who

00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:01.880
are manipulating those products on a day to day

00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:06.720
basis? Do they get sick from using, you know,

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.700
animal waste? Yeah, it's a good question. One

00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:12.220
of the farmers at the Veganic Summit, his name

00:29:12.220 --> 00:29:16.799
is Jimmy Videli, and he actually Back when before

00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.960
he started farming veganically, he was doing

00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.599
kind of standard organic with having animals

00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.240
and purchasing animal products. And at one point

00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.359
he ended up with an E. coli infection, I think

00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:33.240
in his hand. And so it was basically a scenario

00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.099
where he had got a small cut and picked up a

00:29:36.099 --> 00:29:39.579
bag of manure the same day. And and there was

00:29:39.579 --> 00:29:43.279
just a tiny little bit that got in. But even

00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.660
things like. breathing in the fumes of manure.

00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:50.079
I mean, many of us are in scenarios where if

00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:51.980
we're out in the countryside and we drive by

00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:54.279
a factory farm, we suddenly realize that there's

00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:58.839
this horrible stench. But that horrible stench

00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:02.039
can also come from people spreading manure in

00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:06.599
fields and beyond being just very, very unpleasant

00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:11.180
for everybody in the neighborhood, as well as

00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:15.059
the farm workers. you know, it actually does

00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:17.920
emanate certain substances that aren't good for

00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:20.140
our health when we're breathing them in. And

00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:23.660
that's something that I don't have the details

00:30:23.660 --> 00:30:26.460
on me right now regarding which substance and

00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:28.519
what effect, but I do encourage people to do

00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:32.779
a little bit of research into that. But for sure,

00:30:33.019 --> 00:30:36.779
there absolutely can be uh instances in which

00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:39.019
farm workers could become sick from using animal

00:30:39.019 --> 00:30:42.559
products and one of them too was you know back

00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.059
in uh the mad cow crisis there were concerns

00:30:47.059 --> 00:30:50.500
around um you know there's blood meal and bone

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:54.920
meal that come from cows during the mad cow crisis

00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.039
and these come in powdered forms so if people

00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.980
are spreading them you can accidentally inhale

00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:03.640
a bit and so there were you know certain cautions

00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.000
at the time around people wearing masks when

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.059
using some of these substances. And so yeah,

00:31:10.059 --> 00:31:13.299
there are various health concerns that that could

00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:19.099
come about. Are they subsidized to use animal

00:31:19.099 --> 00:31:22.519
waste for as fertilizers? That's a good question

00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.819
that I don't have the answer to. And again, I

00:31:24.819 --> 00:31:26.539
think that would be something that could vary

00:31:26.539 --> 00:31:29.880
from from region to region. Okay, let's talk

00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:35.619
about how to fight this. Okay. Let's say, um,

00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:40.019
someone is listening to this podcast in a urban

00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:44.720
area and they're thinking, well, how do I change

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:49.759
my, you know, how do I recognize products, uh,

00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.200
in the store that are from the organic farming

00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:57.980
versus from, you know, grown with animal fertilizers?

00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:01.519
Uh, is there a certification, you know, organic

00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:06.009
farming certification to distinguish products.

00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:09.910
So there is a certification program in North

00:32:09.910 --> 00:32:12.970
America called Certified Veganic, and there's

00:32:12.970 --> 00:32:16.789
also a certification program in the UK that's

00:32:16.789 --> 00:32:19.589
called Stock Free Organic Certification, and

00:32:19.589 --> 00:32:21.690
stock free basically means without livestock.

00:32:22.329 --> 00:32:26.670
But both of those are typically used by individual

00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:29.109
farms who are selling direct to the consumer.

00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.019
Uh, so usually in more of a CSA model where people

00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:35.900
would pay to get, uh, you know, baskets from

00:32:35.900 --> 00:32:39.319
that farmer, you know, for a full season or some

00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:41.259
farmers who might sell locally at their farmers

00:32:41.259 --> 00:32:44.200
market. Uh, there's a few farmers who are veganic

00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:47.980
who maybe sell a handful of things online. Uh,

00:32:47.980 --> 00:32:50.279
but for the moment right now, one thing I can

00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:53.140
suggest is people can go to one of our websites,

00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.460
the veganic agriculture network website, which

00:32:55.460 --> 00:32:59.220
is goveganic .net. And we do have a veganic farm

00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:01.720
map. that's available that you can take a look

00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:06.140
at. Now, for the moment, that map is for farms

00:33:06.140 --> 00:33:08.660
that are self -declared as veganic rather than

00:33:08.660 --> 00:33:12.519
necessarily certified, but it's a good starting

00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:14.339
point. But there's a good chance you'll find

00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.519
that there's not a farm in your area because

00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:18.940
there's many farms that aren't on that map and

00:33:18.940 --> 00:33:21.700
it's something that's still relatively new. I

00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:24.640
mean, finding a veganic farm today might be like...

00:33:24.170 --> 00:33:26.470
you know, trying to find an organic farm a few

00:33:26.470 --> 00:33:29.029
decades ago. You know, it's something that there's

00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:31.630
still a bit few and far between. I will say that

00:33:31.630 --> 00:33:35.130
in a grocery store setting, there is a company

00:33:35.130 --> 00:33:37.690
called One Degree Organics that sells through

00:33:37.690 --> 00:33:40.930
grocery stores, and they produce their food in

00:33:40.930 --> 00:33:44.230
a veganic way. That said, they do have a couple

00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:46.549
of products that actually aren't vegan. They

00:33:46.549 --> 00:33:47.970
have a couple of products that they've added

00:33:47.970 --> 00:33:52.819
honey to, and so you do have to look at the ingredient

00:33:52.819 --> 00:33:54.880
list and make sure it's vegan to begin with,

00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:56.599
because they have done a couple of straight -up

00:33:56.599 --> 00:34:00.500
non -vegan things. But for their products that

00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:02.960
are vegan, they are also produced in a veganic

00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.539
way. And they've kind of taken that angle more

00:34:07.539 --> 00:34:09.380
for the health side of things than for the animal

00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:12.619
rights side of things, which is perhaps why they

00:34:12.619 --> 00:34:15.300
have some inconsistencies from a vegan perspective

00:34:15.300 --> 00:34:18.239
with using honey in a couple of products. But

00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:21.260
most of their products are vegan. like fully

00:34:21.260 --> 00:34:23.179
plant -based and using organic techniques. So

00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:25.300
that's, you know, I sometimes eat some of their

00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:29.659
oatmeal or breakfast cereal for example. But

00:34:29.659 --> 00:34:31.619
aside from that for the moment, I mean one of

00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:33.820
the most empowering things we can do is learn

00:34:33.820 --> 00:34:37.199
how to grow our own food and that can involve

00:34:37.389 --> 00:34:40.769
starting a garden on our balcony or in our backyard,

00:34:41.150 --> 00:34:43.309
that could be getting a plot at a community garden

00:34:43.309 --> 00:34:46.789
and doing that in a veganic way. Or it could

00:34:46.789 --> 00:34:48.889
be getting together with a few other vegans,

00:34:48.989 --> 00:34:50.969
one of whom has, you know, a larger piece of

00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:53.789
land and growing together. And that's really

00:34:53.789 --> 00:34:56.949
one of the most empowering ways that we can start

00:34:56.949 --> 00:34:59.610
to grow veganically. And aside from that, as

00:34:59.610 --> 00:35:04.179
I mentioned, just the idea of several several

00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:07.239
dozen vegans even coming together and supporting

00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:10.420
one farmer. I think that's one of, again, the

00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:14.480
best ways that we can create change. Aside from

00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.059
that, you can speak with farmers in your area,

00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:19.059
ask them what their fertilization techniques

00:35:19.059 --> 00:35:22.059
are, ask if they've ever considered trying veganic

00:35:22.059 --> 00:35:24.449
techniques or if they'd consider having... part

00:35:24.449 --> 00:35:28.710
of their farm in veganic techniques and I think

00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:30.630
having some of those conversations and you know

00:35:30.630 --> 00:35:32.989
we also need people working on all levels you

00:35:32.989 --> 00:35:38.190
know we need people lobbying you know to have

00:35:38.190 --> 00:35:40.969
funding available for farms to transition and

00:35:40.969 --> 00:35:42.789
things of that nature you know as you mentioned

00:35:42.789 --> 00:35:45.690
with subsidies right now a lot of subsidies go

00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:49.099
to things like directly subsidizing animal agriculture

00:35:49.099 --> 00:35:52.400
or subsidizing the corn industry which ends up

00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.719
becoming animal feed and we need more subsidies

00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:59.780
that are going toward uh plant plant food production

00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:03.039
and the transition process of farms because that

00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:06.099
transition process can involve some learning

00:36:06.099 --> 00:36:08.599
you know it could that that learning curve you

00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:10.760
know can can take a little bit of time in some

00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:14.619
cases it might involve uh you know getting a

00:36:14.619 --> 00:36:16.679
few new materials or a new piece of equipment

00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.559
or whatever it might be. And so the more that

00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:22.320
farmers can be supported in that transition,

00:36:22.579 --> 00:36:25.960
both by consumers and hopefully by government

00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:29.800
subsidies too, those would be wonderful directions

00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:31.920
to head to make this more widespread so that

00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.119
one day when people look at that organic map,

00:36:34.179 --> 00:36:36.119
they will be able to find a place right near

00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:39.840
them. That's beautiful. I never heard of some

00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.170
of those. tactics, um, like getting together

00:36:44.170 --> 00:36:47.670
and knocking on the door of a farmer and saying,

00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:51.070
Hey, uh, do you want to have lots of clients?

00:36:51.590 --> 00:36:55.429
We're all interested in purchasing, uh, organic

00:36:55.429 --> 00:36:58.789
products. And if you do, if you transition to

00:36:58.789 --> 00:37:02.170
that model, we'll become your permanent clients.

00:37:03.130 --> 00:37:07.210
Um, that's just a beautiful idea. And of course

00:37:07.210 --> 00:37:10.250
you are at the forefront of that weight. uh,

00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:12.889
the organization of the summit with the network.

00:37:13.809 --> 00:37:17.610
Did you get any, did you feel like there, did

00:37:17.610 --> 00:37:22.429
you get any obstacles or opposition to your ideas?

00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:25.590
And, you know, from outside the vegan community,

00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:29.889
maybe, um, the big ag industry and also from

00:37:29.889 --> 00:37:32.750
inside the vegan community. We really haven't

00:37:32.750 --> 00:37:35.250
had much in the way of opposition and pushback.

00:37:35.309 --> 00:37:39.860
Um, we tend to present things in. a very friendly,

00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:42.960
welcoming, accessible way. And so I think we're

00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.079
presenting things in a way that doesn't invite

00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:49.139
a lot of pushback. And maybe we've just been

00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:52.599
lucky that people who would push back haven't

00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.579
been too active or vocal with us. Maybe we're

00:37:55.579 --> 00:37:58.559
too small for people to notice. And maybe when

00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:00.719
we do experience pushback, maybe that will be

00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:03.380
the sign that we're growing more. But within

00:38:03.380 --> 00:38:08.199
the vegan community, I think in general, People

00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.440
are very, very supportive of the idea. I do absolutely

00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:16.320
understand the concept, but there's other things

00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:18.639
that people are individually going to do first.

00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.519
In general, people are going to cut out meat

00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.690
and cut out eggs and dairy and then... start

00:38:24.690 --> 00:38:27.489
to understand some of the other ingredients like

00:38:27.489 --> 00:38:29.590
whey powder that we also don't eat as a vegan

00:38:29.590 --> 00:38:31.809
that maybe, you know, we didn't know about. And

00:38:31.809 --> 00:38:34.309
there's so much learning to do as we're switching

00:38:34.309 --> 00:38:40.070
over to a vegan diet. And so I think that the

00:38:40.070 --> 00:38:42.090
gardening side of things is something and the

00:38:42.090 --> 00:38:43.489
farming side of things is something that's not

00:38:43.489 --> 00:38:46.849
going to occur to people right away. But I think

00:38:46.849 --> 00:38:51.050
once we are hitting that point of being comfortable

00:38:51.050 --> 00:38:53.730
in veganism and ready to take on some other aspects,

00:38:53.769 --> 00:38:56.369
I think it's a wonderful one to take on. Much

00:38:56.369 --> 00:38:58.650
in the same way that, you know, when we become

00:38:58.650 --> 00:39:01.989
vegan it might take a little bit of time to realize,

00:39:02.309 --> 00:39:04.750
oh yeah, how do I buy shoes in a different way?

00:39:04.869 --> 00:39:07.130
Okay, you know, there's this learning curve and

00:39:07.130 --> 00:39:10.710
with veganic there's also a learning curve. But

00:39:10.710 --> 00:39:13.309
I think especially for folks who are growing

00:39:13.309 --> 00:39:16.710
their own food at home, as you can imagine, A

00:39:16.710 --> 00:39:18.849
vegan who walks into a garden center, and that's

00:39:18.849 --> 00:39:20.989
not the opening line of a joke, that was just

00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:26.309
an actual scenario. A vegan who walks into a

00:39:26.309 --> 00:39:28.969
gardening center, especially if you go over to

00:39:28.969 --> 00:39:30.829
that organic aisle, you're going to just see

00:39:30.829 --> 00:39:33.510
these things that say organic, eco -friendly,

00:39:33.789 --> 00:39:36.090
and it'll say like eco -friendly chicken manure.

00:39:36.289 --> 00:39:38.650
And it's just factory farm chicken manure. They're

00:39:38.650 --> 00:39:41.710
touting as eco -friendly because it's being reused.

00:39:42.369 --> 00:39:44.989
you know, even though it comes from this horribly

00:39:44.989 --> 00:39:49.969
exploitative and unsustainable industry. And

00:39:49.969 --> 00:39:52.429
even if you try to buy potting mix and things

00:39:52.429 --> 00:39:54.429
like that, it might not say at all what's on

00:39:54.429 --> 00:39:56.289
the ingredients or the ingredients might say

00:39:56.289 --> 00:39:58.269
compost and you might think, well, that sounds

00:39:58.269 --> 00:40:00.550
great. It says compost, that must be okay. But

00:40:00.550 --> 00:40:04.750
it might be composted shrimp residues. I mean,

00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:09.289
it could be anything of that sort. And so much

00:40:09.289 --> 00:40:12.420
in the same way that when vegans start to go

00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:15.239
grocery shopping you get confronted with this

00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:18.360
thing of okay here's you know a few things i

00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:20.099
can find amongst a bunch of other things that

00:40:20.099 --> 00:40:21.920
aren't vegan or if you go to restaurants you're

00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:23.920
looking for that one or two vegan things on the

00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.860
menu and asking some questions well vegans who

00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:32.079
garden end up facing those same conundrums because

00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.119
obviously i would not want to buy blood meal

00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.239
or bone meal and the The interesting thing is

00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:39.480
I've been gardening for 15 years and I almost

00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:42.139
never go into garden centers because I'm producing

00:40:42.139 --> 00:40:46.000
almost all of my own fertilizers on my own. I'll

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:52.860
be composting plant matter from my yard and I'll

00:40:52.860 --> 00:40:56.760
be, you know, using things like hay or straw.

00:40:56.900 --> 00:40:59.320
So it's very rare that I actually go into a standard

00:40:59.320 --> 00:41:01.480
garden center. And when I do, I can be a little...

00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:05.219
a little disappointed by the options. I would

00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:07.039
like to see a point in the future where it's

00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.400
easier for vegans just to go in and grab stuff

00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.500
off the shelf that's labeled as veganic, that's

00:41:12.500 --> 00:41:16.059
certified veganic, but where most things you'll

00:41:16.059 --> 00:41:17.800
find in a garden center right now are either

00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:21.420
animal -based or chemical -based. And so one

00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:23.639
thing I sometimes say to folks is that being

00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:26.860
a vegan gardener today or a vegan farmer today

00:41:26.860 --> 00:41:30.300
is like being vegan in the 1970s. So back in

00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:33.380
the 70s, vegans were making their own tofu, making

00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:36.000
their own veggie burgers. They were the only

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.820
vegan in their town. And that's what being a

00:41:38.820 --> 00:41:41.460
vegan grower is like today. It's very grassroots.

00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:44.760
It's very much like a kind of do -it -yourself

00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:47.699
thing where you look around and you're like,

00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:49.920
what materials do I have and what can I do with

00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.800
them? And we actually teach an online gardening

00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.219
course called the Learn Veganic Course. And that's

00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:58.159
a place where we actually show people like, here's

00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:00.380
what you can do with your grass clippings. Here's

00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:02.820
what you can do with your neighbor's leaves that

00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:04.619
fell. When you take their leaves and you let

00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:07.579
them decompose and you turn it into this wonderful

00:42:07.579 --> 00:42:09.659
substance that can really improve your soil.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.239
And so the interesting thing about veganic, where

00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.119
we are with it today, is that just by virtue

00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:18.300
of the fact that there's not a whole lot of commercial

00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:21.699
options available we end up being so much more

00:42:21.699 --> 00:42:24.480
sustainable because we end up looking at like

00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.639
okay what can I use and what I can use is things

00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:31.199
like leaves and tree branches from my neighborhood

00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:34.179
which is actually way more ecological than buying

00:42:34.179 --> 00:42:37.900
anything from the store. That's amazing. Make

00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:43.019
your like the ultimate vegan. The last evolution

00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:49.360
of what veganism is. Yeah, it's crazy how you

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.880
think that you've figured out everything and

00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:58.460
now it feels like you're at square one because

00:42:58.460 --> 00:43:04.190
you did not consider veganic farming. And I think

00:43:04.190 --> 00:43:06.610
it's cute that you want us to become farmers.

00:43:07.969 --> 00:43:10.809
I actually love gardening. I think it's very

00:43:10.809 --> 00:43:14.909
therapeutic. I recommend it to everyone. It's

00:43:14.909 --> 00:43:19.710
beautiful to put your hands in the soil and see

00:43:19.710 --> 00:43:25.809
the progress, how a seed can become a tomato

00:43:25.809 --> 00:43:31.039
plant and give you that many tomatoes. It is

00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:34.519
a beautiful process that feeds you, you know,

00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.559
literally feeds you, but also spiritually feeds

00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:41.980
you. It's yeah, I'm sure you have more beautiful

00:43:41.980 --> 00:43:45.340
words to describe that. Yeah, I mean I can say

00:43:45.340 --> 00:43:48.960
that for me when I first started gardening I

00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:51.159
was almost doing it out of a feeling of social

00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.780
responsibility I you know, I kind of looked at

00:43:53.780 --> 00:43:56.199
what's my environmental impact in my life? What

00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:58.079
can I do to change it? So I was like, okay I'm

00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.579
gonna start learning to ride my bicycle long

00:44:00.579 --> 00:44:03.340
distances so that I can you know cut down on

00:44:03.340 --> 00:44:06.139
yeah, you know the use of gas -powered vehicles

00:44:06.139 --> 00:44:09.179
and I'm going to start at least learning how

00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:11.059
to grow my own food. Even if I'm not growing

00:44:11.059 --> 00:44:12.800
most of it, I should at least be growing some

00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:14.659
of it. I at least need to learn that process.

00:44:15.059 --> 00:44:17.980
And at that period of my life, which was, you

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:23.059
know, about 15, 20 years ago, I kind of embarked

00:44:23.059 --> 00:44:25.119
on those things out of this feeling of like,

00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:27.679
I should do this. This is the right thing to

00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:29.920
do. I'm just going to like teach myself how to

00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:33.199
do it because it's, you know, ethically coherent

00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:35.280
and good for the planet. And then once I started

00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:38.099
doing these things, I was like, Wow, this is

00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:41.699
amazing. It's amazing in ways I never anticipated

00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:45.420
it would be. And it is just so fascinating to,

00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.980
as you say, start from a seed, end up with this

00:44:47.980 --> 00:44:50.619
huge plant that's giving you all of these harvests.

00:44:51.579 --> 00:44:54.159
and you know sometimes even in the first years

00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:56.699
I would almost just let my plants become too

00:44:56.699 --> 00:44:58.760
mature because I just wanted to see what would

00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:00.780
happen. I was just fascinated like what's gonna

00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:02.679
happen if I just let this keep growing and I

00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:05.860
don't harvest it and you know starting to save

00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:08.340
seeds, seeing all of these insects and other

00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:11.699
critters coming into the garden and seeing like

00:45:11.699 --> 00:45:15.510
wildlife coming back and Yeah, I was actually

00:45:15.510 --> 00:45:17.849
surprised to see that this thing that I was just

00:45:17.849 --> 00:45:19.969
like, yeah Okay, I better learn how to do this

00:45:19.969 --> 00:45:22.630
became into something that I became so passionate

00:45:22.630 --> 00:45:25.869
about and that is still a passion of mine all

00:45:25.869 --> 00:45:30.590
these years later and I do still try Every year

00:45:30.590 --> 00:45:33.929
to try new things and to experiment because you

00:45:33.929 --> 00:45:37.320
know, I think that many of us enjoy novelty,

00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:40.820
we enjoy experimentation and so this year we

00:45:40.820 --> 00:45:44.400
started growing a lot of mushrooms in our garden

00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.679
in ways that I hadn't experimented with before

00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:50.880
so that was fascinating and it's got my mind

00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.099
rolling. A lot of the time I'll be going about

00:45:54.099 --> 00:45:55.860
my day and then I'll suddenly start thinking

00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:57.800
of this three or four year plan for something

00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:00.739
I can do to increase my soil fertility while

00:46:00.739 --> 00:46:02.699
getting a bunch of strawberries and a bunch of

00:46:02.699 --> 00:46:06.420
mushrooms out of the process and Yeah, it's just

00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:09.800
absolutely fascinating. And I'll say, Ryan, I

00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:12.500
mean, I'm a gardener who doesn't necessarily

00:46:12.500 --> 00:46:14.840
want to farm myself. I do realize that there's

00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:17.559
a lot of things in life that are fun and therapeutic

00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:20.920
for five or 10 hours a week. And then if you

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.940
bring it up to 40 or 50, maybe not quite so much.

00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:27.659
So I'm extremely grateful for everyone who does

00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:31.800
take on farming because I think it is you know,

00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:35.639
it's such a noble profession to feed other people

00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:39.780
and I do think that we need more scenarios where

00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:42.000
you have people collaborating together so that

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.679
you can have several people farming together

00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:47.239
where each person is doing that on a part -time

00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:52.079
basis and contributing in different ways and

00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:55.980
also just to be very, very grateful to our farmers

00:46:55.980 --> 00:47:00.699
and to recognize I think one of the things when

00:47:00.699 --> 00:47:02.900
we grow our own food, when we grow our own tomatoes

00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:04.940
and our own lettuce and we're patiently waiting

00:47:04.940 --> 00:47:08.440
for it for weeks or months, we can start to understand

00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:13.059
that food does have a certain value, not only

00:47:13.059 --> 00:47:16.420
because it's necessary for our survival and in

00:47:16.420 --> 00:47:20.559
that sense has an incredible value, but just

00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.159
the amount of work and time and patience that

00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:25.920
goes into growing it. I really do think that

00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.710
we need to be willing to support our farmers

00:47:28.710 --> 00:47:31.210
and also willing to purchase from them in different

00:47:31.210 --> 00:47:33.750
ways. When I mentioned the idea of several people

00:47:33.750 --> 00:47:35.510
getting together, you know, dozens of people

00:47:35.510 --> 00:47:38.170
getting together to support a farmer in scenarios

00:47:38.170 --> 00:47:41.030
like that, you also need to be willing to go

00:47:41.030 --> 00:47:43.570
pick up a basket at a certain park every Thursday

00:47:43.570 --> 00:47:46.190
afternoon and do certain things that are maybe

00:47:46.190 --> 00:47:48.550
different from just walking down the street to

00:47:48.550 --> 00:47:51.590
our nearest grocery store. If we want to support

00:47:51.590 --> 00:47:53.750
this transition, we need to be willing to be

00:47:53.750 --> 00:47:59.090
active members in it. Yeah, I garden for myself,

00:47:59.650 --> 00:48:03.250
for friends, for family, you know, I offer some

00:48:03.250 --> 00:48:07.090
of what I produced every year and it's such a

00:48:07.090 --> 00:48:11.570
joy, such a beautiful gift to make. I don't do

00:48:11.570 --> 00:48:15.869
it to sustain myself for the entire year. And

00:48:15.869 --> 00:48:20.309
yeah, I realize how much effort that would require.

00:48:21.289 --> 00:48:25.159
Yeah, definitely. So I asked you about, you know,

00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:30.199
opposition from Big Ang. What about then the

00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.760
concept of, let me find the right words, regenerative

00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:39.099
agriculture? Have you heard of that? Okay, so

00:48:39.099 --> 00:48:42.340
regenerative agriculture in and of itself is

00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:46.320
the idea of regenerating soil. So it's the idea

00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:50.159
that the forms of agriculture that we use should

00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.469
make the soil healthier, and more biodiverse

00:48:54.469 --> 00:48:57.010
that they should be increasing the organic matter

00:48:57.010 --> 00:49:00.489
instead of depleting the soil. So oftentimes,

00:49:00.789 --> 00:49:03.349
especially when we look at big industrial agriculture,

00:49:03.869 --> 00:49:05.670
what they're doing is they're putting on chemical

00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:09.070
fertilizers oftentimes, which does nothing to

00:49:09.070 --> 00:49:13.530
increase the... biomass of the soil. It does

00:49:13.530 --> 00:49:16.210
nothing to feed the soil life, which means that

00:49:16.210 --> 00:49:19.210
the soil life just dies off. And then they'll

00:49:19.210 --> 00:49:21.690
come through with big tractors that are kind

00:49:21.690 --> 00:49:23.889
of turning everything. So it's even difficult

00:49:23.889 --> 00:49:26.590
for fungal life to survive in that environment.

00:49:27.070 --> 00:49:28.989
And so you end up in a scenario where you can

00:49:28.989 --> 00:49:33.590
have dirt, kind of dead dirt, instead of vibrant

00:49:33.590 --> 00:49:38.119
living soil. And you can have dirt that is losing

00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.380
its organic matter, that's losing its nutrients,

00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:42.940
that's losing its structure over the years. So

00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:46.300
with regenerative, the idea behind it is, you

00:49:46.300 --> 00:49:49.139
know, let's have systems that build soil health,

00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:53.139
that build soil quality, and that, you know,

00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:56.800
create a soil that's going to be fertile for

00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.980
us, for our lifespans, but also for future generations.

00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:05.170
And there's nothing in and of itself with that

00:50:05.170 --> 00:50:07.489
that needs to be related to animal agriculture.

00:50:08.590 --> 00:50:11.849
Now the interesting thing that's happened is

00:50:11.849 --> 00:50:16.650
that the regenerative movement, it has about

00:50:16.650 --> 00:50:21.289
six or seven different kind of main practices

00:50:21.289 --> 00:50:25.210
in place and one of them can be adding animals

00:50:25.210 --> 00:50:29.630
like cows to the system. But for some reason,

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.099
In recent years, regenerative has almost become

00:50:33.099 --> 00:50:37.079
synonymous with having some cows grazing. And

00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:40.360
so we end up with this false equivalency, the

00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:42.639
same way that we could have a false equivalency

00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:46.440
between, I need to eat protein, so let's eat

00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:49.480
steak, or I need to have calcium in my diet,

00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:51.860
so I better drink milk. And you know, people

00:50:51.860 --> 00:50:54.150
can be like, OK, I want to regenerate my soil,

00:50:54.190 --> 00:50:57.469
so I guess I need cows. And it's just become

00:50:57.469 --> 00:51:01.409
this false equivalency where if we just go back

00:51:01.409 --> 00:51:04.750
to the root of the matter, which is I'd like

00:51:04.750 --> 00:51:07.809
to have soil that I regenerate and that's in

00:51:07.809 --> 00:51:09.389
good health and that I'm building up that soil.

00:51:09.449 --> 00:51:12.409
Well, that's a fantastic goal. But there's nothing

00:51:12.409 --> 00:51:15.530
where in and of itself that would require having

00:51:15.869 --> 00:51:19.389
raising animals like cows that come from a completely

00:51:19.389 --> 00:51:21.230
different continent and have been selectively

00:51:21.230 --> 00:51:25.630
bred and aren't native to this area. And the

00:51:25.630 --> 00:51:27.489
interesting thing is too, you know, there's sometimes

00:51:27.489 --> 00:51:30.030
arguments that are made about, well, back in

00:51:30.030 --> 00:51:32.250
the day there were buffalo running around and

00:51:32.250 --> 00:51:35.710
yet... Oftentimes, people still insist on the

00:51:35.710 --> 00:51:37.469
idea of putting cows in places where buffalo

00:51:37.469 --> 00:51:40.650
didn't run back in the day, you know, in areas

00:51:40.650 --> 00:51:43.070
where maybe there used to be boreal forests or

00:51:43.070 --> 00:51:47.030
other completely different ecosystems. So with

00:51:47.030 --> 00:51:49.889
veganic, we do look at the idea of how can we

00:51:49.889 --> 00:51:52.010
regenerate our soil. That is so fundamental,

00:51:52.010 --> 00:51:55.070
but we're doing it with things like one of my

00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:57.449
favorite ways is that there's a material called

00:51:57.449 --> 00:52:00.869
chipped branchwood and or ramiel chipped wood,

00:52:00.889 --> 00:52:03.510
and that's just taking really small branches,

00:52:03.710 --> 00:52:05.809
ones that are just a few centimeters in diameter,

00:52:06.010 --> 00:52:08.789
chipping them up, adding them to the soil. That

00:52:08.789 --> 00:52:11.809
can actually cause some temporary fertility issues

00:52:11.809 --> 00:52:13.829
for a few months, so it's more of a long -term

00:52:13.829 --> 00:52:16.670
solution as it breaks down. But if we think about

00:52:16.670 --> 00:52:20.829
our forest environments, you know, a lot of these

00:52:20.829 --> 00:52:24.929
soils were built up over thousands of years because

00:52:24.929 --> 00:52:28.530
leaves fell, and twigs fell and they broke down

00:52:28.530 --> 00:52:30.670
and they created these incredibly fertile soils.

00:52:31.030 --> 00:52:32.949
We came in and we clear cut it and we used it

00:52:32.949 --> 00:52:35.570
as agricultural land and we depleted it. And

00:52:35.570 --> 00:52:39.070
so, you know, what I do in my garden is I'll

00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:41.929
use things like leaves and twigs and they build

00:52:41.929 --> 00:52:44.809
up incredibly fertile soils. And some of our

00:52:44.809 --> 00:52:47.369
folks, the farmers who are speaking at the Veganic

00:52:47.369 --> 00:52:49.849
Summit, some of them use a technique called green

00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:52.519
manures. which sounds disgusting on the surface

00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.880
if you just imagine green manure but green manures

00:52:55.880 --> 00:52:59.260
is actually just plants and green manures are

00:52:59.260 --> 00:53:02.320
basically plants that you grow to feed back to

00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.400
the soil instead of growing them to eat them

00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:07.239
yourself and so green manures are plants that

00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:09.760
you might grow because they're really good at

00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.440
protecting the soil during the rainy season or

00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:14.440
because they're going to get nitrogen from the

00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.420
air to give back to the soil or because they

00:53:16.420 --> 00:53:19.539
might be really good at getting phosphorus from

00:53:19.539 --> 00:53:22.360
the soil. And then when you feed it back to the

00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:24.800
soil, you're basically increasing your organic

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:28.059
matter and improving your soil structure. And

00:53:28.059 --> 00:53:32.119
so yeah, I mean, we love the idea of regenerating

00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:34.460
soil, we just don't think there's any particular

00:53:34.460 --> 00:53:37.360
reason why we need to exploit animals along the

00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:43.019
way to do it. I mentioned the organic summit

00:53:43.019 --> 00:53:46.889
in the introduction. But I want you to describe

00:53:46.889 --> 00:53:49.550
what it feels like to go and visit the summit.

00:53:50.409 --> 00:53:53.210
And what can we expect? You mentioned a few guests

00:53:53.210 --> 00:53:57.150
from other countries from outside North America,

00:53:57.210 --> 00:54:00.710
which is exciting. What other surprises can we

00:54:00.710 --> 00:54:05.639
expect for this year's edition? Yes, so the Veganic

00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:09.199
Summit is just this wonderful event and we do

00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:13.760
invite everyone to join us. It's three days and

00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.199
it's fully online so people can join us from

00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:19.539
anywhere in the world. And basically we have

00:54:19.539 --> 00:54:22.059
farmers and gardeners from around the world who

00:54:22.059 --> 00:54:24.780
are coming to share the ways that they have successfully

00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:28.219
put veganic techniques into practice. so that

00:54:28.219 --> 00:54:32.360
people can learn how to do it themselves or be

00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:35.860
better positioned to advocate on behalf of veganic

00:54:35.860 --> 00:54:40.099
growing. And so we've got some wonderful farmers

00:54:40.099 --> 00:54:44.539
joining us from India and the U .S. and Canada

00:54:44.539 --> 00:54:49.619
and England. And one fellow, Bob Rumansi, is

00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:51.980
joining us from Uganda where he actually has

00:54:51.980 --> 00:54:56.449
an amazing project. He got 50 communities in

00:54:56.449 --> 00:54:59.590
his region of Uganda to start gardening veganically

00:54:59.590 --> 00:55:02.610
in kind of collective gardens with a few dozen

00:55:02.610 --> 00:55:05.309
people gardening in each of these 50 different

00:55:05.309 --> 00:55:08.710
gardens. And it's just absolutely impressive

00:55:08.710 --> 00:55:11.650
what he has managed to do when he goes around

00:55:11.650 --> 00:55:14.650
giving advice and support to these different

00:55:14.650 --> 00:55:16.730
gardens over the course of the growing season.

00:55:18.429 --> 00:55:22.619
And yet we have the charities and non -profits

00:55:22.619 --> 00:55:25.139
coming to speak to like the Vegan Organic Network

00:55:25.139 --> 00:55:28.219
that's based in England that has been promoting

00:55:28.219 --> 00:55:31.019
veganic gardening and farming since 1996. They're

00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:34.579
coming to join us and they'll be speaking about

00:55:34.579 --> 00:55:36.599
different ways that you can bring veganic growing

00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:39.260
to your community because they have been working

00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.780
on bringing veganic growing to schools, getting

00:55:42.780 --> 00:55:47.380
people sprouting at home, and also helping to

00:55:47.380 --> 00:55:51.179
support farmers who are transitioning. There's

00:55:51.179 --> 00:55:53.960
a group in Scotland called Stock Free Farming.

00:55:54.219 --> 00:55:57.219
They're showing a little documentary about three

00:55:57.219 --> 00:55:59.420
farms that they assisted in their transition

00:55:59.420 --> 00:56:03.659
from livestock farming to veganic methods. And

00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:07.719
so I'll be speaking about 20 different ways that

00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:11.300
you can fertilize your farm or garden using vegan

00:56:11.300 --> 00:56:14.880
techniques, because there are so many ways that

00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.239
we can fertilize veganically. And so I want to

00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:20.289
give people just that little kickstart into thinking

00:56:20.289 --> 00:56:22.969
about what materials you have in your region

00:56:22.969 --> 00:56:26.929
that you could use to fertilize with. And, you

00:56:26.929 --> 00:56:28.650
know, it's also community building. You know,

00:56:28.650 --> 00:56:31.349
we have an online community that people can join

00:56:31.349 --> 00:56:36.230
to connect with other folks. And so whether somebody's

00:56:36.230 --> 00:56:38.710
a gardener, a homesteader, a farmer, or someone

00:56:38.710 --> 00:56:41.210
who's just really curious to learn more about

00:56:41.210 --> 00:56:43.829
veganic, because, you know, this is a way that

00:56:43.829 --> 00:56:46.519
sometimes People can get tripped up when it comes

00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:48.639
to veganism. You know, sometimes people will

00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:51.449
say Well, hey, your food's grown using animal

00:56:51.449 --> 00:56:55.050
products, so veganism isn't really possible.

00:56:55.369 --> 00:56:58.789
And it is completely possible. And so if people

00:56:58.789 --> 00:57:02.309
want to learn about veganics in more detail,

00:57:02.550 --> 00:57:05.230
especially some of the specific techniques or

00:57:05.230 --> 00:57:08.289
seeing examples of what people are doing, it's

00:57:08.289 --> 00:57:10.670
a great way just to become more informed about

00:57:10.670 --> 00:57:12.989
the topic. And one thing we're super excited

00:57:12.989 --> 00:57:15.389
about this year is that we have several virtual

00:57:15.389 --> 00:57:19.530
farm tours. I went to visit one farm in Quebec

00:57:19.530 --> 00:57:22.150
this summer to film, and then some other farmers

00:57:22.150 --> 00:57:25.090
took out their cameras during the growing season

00:57:25.090 --> 00:57:28.429
and went around their farms and gardens to show

00:57:28.429 --> 00:57:32.230
what they're up to. And so really one of our

00:57:32.230 --> 00:57:35.829
goals is to share organic practices from every

00:57:35.829 --> 00:57:39.190
scale, from someone having a garden, to someone

00:57:39.190 --> 00:57:41.929
trying to be self -sufficient, to somebody running

00:57:41.929 --> 00:57:46.590
a commercial farm. no matter what scale we're

00:57:46.590 --> 00:57:49.130
at, we can always take some ideas and advice

00:57:49.130 --> 00:57:51.230
from people who are doing things differently.

00:57:51.949 --> 00:57:55.190
And yeah, so I mean, if people are interested

00:57:55.190 --> 00:57:59.369
in joining, I, you can sign up for free at veganic

00:57:59.369 --> 00:58:02.769
summit .com. And we would love to see folks there.

00:58:02.909 --> 00:58:06.449
It's happening from November 7 to ninth. That's

00:58:06.449 --> 00:58:09.309
amazing. I will be there, you know, watching

00:58:09.309 --> 00:58:14.500
all of those lectures and you know, asking questions.

00:58:15.099 --> 00:58:18.179
This is such an interesting and exciting area

00:58:18.179 --> 00:58:22.300
of the animal rights movement of the vegan movement.

00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:26.480
I am truly looking forward to it. And I invite

00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:32.659
people to come and join us. And did you want

00:58:32.659 --> 00:58:35.159
to add something, Meg, before we stop the recording?

00:58:36.099 --> 00:58:39.500
I just want to mention that Everyone can find

00:58:39.500 --> 00:58:42.539
some way or another to become a gardener. Even

00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:45.679
if you're in a situation where you're in an apartment

00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:49.059
with no backyard, even if you don't have a balcony,

00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:54.679
you can even start sprouting, for example. growing

00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:57.559
something like broccoli sprouts or clover sprouts.

00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:00.260
The wonderful thing about those is you don't

00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:02.940
need soil and you don't need fertilizer. So it's

00:59:02.940 --> 00:59:05.280
one of the easiest ways to get started without

00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:09.360
animal products is doing something where you

00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.920
can grow sprouts in about five days, six days.

00:59:13.900 --> 00:59:16.579
And it's something that's a wonderful way to

00:59:16.579 --> 00:59:20.380
have fresh food that you can eat all winter long.

00:59:22.010 --> 00:59:26.429
costs very very little and it's so easy to do

00:59:26.429 --> 00:59:29.829
and if you try something like sprouting and you

00:59:29.829 --> 00:59:31.969
mess it up well you can start again and it's

00:59:31.969 --> 00:59:34.409
just five days before it's ready so if you're

00:59:34.409 --> 00:59:37.210
listening to this and you just want one little

00:59:37.210 --> 00:59:39.409
place to get started that's what I would suggest

00:59:39.409 --> 00:59:41.510
because you can do that at any time of year and

00:59:41.510 --> 00:59:43.789
and even the colder months are are even better

00:59:43.789 --> 00:59:47.349
than the warmer months and yeah again gardening

00:59:47.349 --> 00:59:50.489
is just such a joy so if you do have a balcony

00:59:50.489 --> 00:59:53.659
space backyard space, front yard space, community

00:59:53.659 --> 00:59:57.239
garden, friend's yard, family's yard, anywhere

00:59:57.239 --> 01:00:00.360
like that, I would suggest just giving it a go,

01:00:00.699 --> 01:00:04.960
growing a few plants. And yeah, just it's, it's

01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:08.059
such a wonderful way to interact with nature

01:00:08.059 --> 01:00:13.139
and to regain some essential skills. Five days,

01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:16.940
only five days, I'm sold. I'll be doing this

01:00:16.940 --> 01:00:23.630
all year long. Thank you. Meg, this has been

01:00:23.630 --> 01:00:26.550
a pleasure. I learned so much from this conversation

01:00:26.550 --> 01:00:30.590
and I will definitely take greater interest in

01:00:30.590 --> 01:00:34.150
vegan farming. You're welcome to come back to

01:00:34.150 --> 01:00:37.369
the show. Thank you so much for all of the good

01:00:37.369 --> 01:00:40.809
work you're doing, Meg. You're really a pioneer

01:00:40.809 --> 01:00:44.469
of this movement, truly. Thank you, Meg. Well,

01:00:44.469 --> 01:00:47.099
thank you for having me here today, Ryan. Thank

01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:50.159
you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you

01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:52.699
to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:57.159
Let's encourage more people to take action. Again,

01:00:57.380 --> 01:01:00.099
thank you so much for caring and I will see you

01:01:00.099 --> 01:01:02.179
next Tuesday for a new episode.