Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan,
and did you know that most of the plant -based
food you are eating is grown using animal products
as fertilizers? Manure, blood meal, bone meal,
feather meal, and fish emulsion all obtained
from the animal exploitation industry. But there
is a better, safer, more sustainable, and ethical
alternative Vegan farming, today's topic. Have
you ever heard of vegan farming? Vegan agriculture
uses plant -based techniques instead of animal
products to grow crops. So for example, instead
of using shrimp compost for fertilization, the
vegan farmer will use vegetable compost, chipped
branch wood, or mulch. To discuss this topic,
I have with me Meg Kelly. Meg co -founded the
Veganic Agriculture Network. She also teaches
the Learn Veganic Online Gardening course to
empower people around the world to grow their
own fruits and veggies at home. We discussed
why organic farming is problematic. The arsenic
in rice. The E. coli in lettuce. What it means
to be vegan when the plants you are eating were
grown with animal products and much more. To
learn more about vegan farming, sign up for free
to the 2025 edition of the vegan summit. It is
100 % virtual and again 100 % free. It is from
November 7 to November 9. Get your ticket now
and connect with amazing speakers. I will definitely
be there. Spread the world that this is happening.
You can share this episode with your friends.
Thank you. Meg, this is a wonderful time to have
you on because I've been thinking a lot about
what it means to be vegan. So I've recorded an
episode on pet food and the question of, you
know, are you really vegan if you have Dogs and
cats and you feed them just dead animals Does
that you know really make you vegan and then
I did an episode on backyard chickens and the
same question Came back. Is it vegan to eat backyard
eggs and support the backyard industry? And now
we're going to talk about How we cultivate? plants,
how the way we cultivate plants might not be
vegan. Is that a good way of framing this conversation?
Fruits and vegetables and legumes and nuts and
grains and other plant foods that we eat are
often fertilized with non -vegan fertilizers.
So that can be things like blood meal or bone
meal or fish emulsion or manure from factory
farms. And so oftentimes these sort of byproducts
of animal industries are used to fertilize what
we generally consider to be vegan foods. So when
it comes to that definition of veganism, though,
when we look back at the definition, we can look
at that element of, you know, being vegan is
reducing animal suffering insofar as it's practicable.
And so, you know, I would say that if someone
goes to the grocery store and buys fruits and
vegetables and legumes and nuts and grains and
eats them, yes, we can consider that, you know,
vegan in and of itself, because in our modern
society, that's as vegan as it gets. Whereas
something like backyard chickens is a different
story, because that's people actually, you know,
bringing in domesticated chickens intentionally,
even though they didn't need to do that. But
it can be difficult for us to have control over
where our food comes from when we're buying it
from grocery stores. We won't always know how
it's fertilized, but what we're working on is
showing people how at the very least when they're
growing their own food in garden scenarios, how
they can make that vegan. Because, for example,
as a vegan who gardens, well, it wouldn't be
particularly vegan if I went and bought a box
of blood meal or a box of bone meal. That would
certainly not be a vegan -friendly action. Uh,
whereas, uh, we can look at other ways we can
grow our fruits and veggies using vegan techniques.
And what we're working to do is show people how
on farm scales, people are already growing veganically
on farms. Cause we would love to see much like
we have organic food available to us, which is
unfortunately often fertilized with animal products.
We'd like to see a future in which people can
have that option of choosing to eat veganic and
for that to become more and more widespread.
That's that's wonderful. And that's. part of
being vegan, taking control over your food choices.
I did not pay much attention to the products
I was purchasing. Never really paid attention
to what was on my plate before becoming vegan.
And I feel that's a discussion we don't often
have on how much veganism is also about empowering
people as consumers. For sure. And again, as
consumers, sometimes we are limited in what choices
are available. So I think as consumers, we're
always in that position of making the best possible
choice we can from the options that are available
to us. But sometimes there will be these kind
of secondary or tertiary animal products that
are used somewhere in the production line. And
I think it's important for us to become aware
of that, because it's only when consumers are
aware of that, that we can start putting some
pressure on, that we can start asking people
even about it. If we're not aware of it, we can't
ask people about it. And you know, I think that
there's a lot of potential in cities that have
a decent population base of, you know, vegans
living in the same area, I think it would be
completely possible to have a collaboration with
a local farmer to say, could you produce veganically
for us? We have 50 people who are willing to
prepay for, you know, veganic produce baskets
for the season. And so, you know, with something
like a CSA model, and, you know, I think that
there's vegans who have acres of land available
too, who aren't necessarily using it for much,
and there's other young vegans who would like
to farm. So if we can get collaborations going
on with one vegan who has a few acres and could
maybe spare one or two acres, some vegans who
would like to farm, and then some other vegans
who would like to buy that produce, I think we
can create some consumer -led models to make
veganic fruits and veggies and other foods available
to those who would like it. I guess I would like
to spend some time on the why. Why should we
go this far? Why should we be interested in supporting
vegan farming? You mentioned how being vegan
is making some lifestyle choices, practical ones,
as much as possible to limit our negative impact
on others' lives. What do you make of vegans
who might say, well, vegan farming is going too
far. It's a mountain that is too tall to climb.
Well, I think if we imagine a future in which
there's no longer animal exploitation, or at
least that it's been significantly reduced. And
if we imagine a future where our food production
is actually sustainable, which is directions
we want to head, I mean, the sustainability aspect
concerns everyone. And The fact of the matter
is the current system for producing food that's
very animal product heavy is completely unsustainable
and obviously causes a huge amount of animal
cruelty. If we want to move away from that, we
need vegan agriculture. And so if we imagine
a system where we have a cleaner world with cleaner
rivers and cleaner air, where our food production
uses less fossil fuels, where our food production
uses less land, where it frees up land for rewilding
or for humans to have more housing or whatever
it may be. If we want that future, veganic growing
is an essential part of it, whereas our current
system is the system that is destroying the earth
in many ways. And even if we extract ourselves
from the idea of eating animals directly, well,
if our fruits and veggies and other plant foods
are fertilized with animal agriculture, then
it's still tied back to animal agriculture. And
so it's important right now that we start to
put that groundwork in place for a transition.
This is, you know, one of the key elements of
a plant -based transition, if we're imagining
a vegan or nearly vegan future. Let's talk about
all the harm that non -veganic farming is doing,
but But first, give us an idea of the scale of
it. So are you saying that all agriculture uses
animal, I guess, manure and all of that to grow
their crops? The crops may have been and may
not have been and we don't know. Unless you actually
speak with individual farmers and ask them about
their techniques, we don't necessarily know.
In organic farming, if we look at organic, organic
essentially means that the fertilizers aren't
chemical in origin. So with organic farming,
the fertilizers can be animal plant or mineral
in origin. And so organic farms very frequently
use animal products as fertilizer, often from
very non -organic farms. So Ryan, you're based
here in Quebec, and so am I. In Quebec, there's
a large chicken industry with all of these hens
laying eggs in factory farm conditions. Even
if that's completely non -organic, conditions
and the meat and the eggs wouldn't be considered
organic, the feces from that can be used as a
fertilizer in organic agriculture, which means
that these animal products oftentimes bring things
like you know, heavy metals and antibiotic residues
into organic agriculture where it doesn't really
belong. And then when we look at kind of standard
agriculture where it's not organic, oftentimes
they're using chemical fertilizers, but they
may also be using animal -based fertilizers also.
So even if they're using chemicals, they might
also use animal fertilizers. And we just don't
know. And chemical fertilizers have their own
issues. Chemical fertilizers have issues related
to the very high fossil fuel impact of creating
chemical nitrogen, the big impact related to
the mining of certain chemical fertilizers. And
there's a lot of runoff from chemical fertilizers
into rivers that have very negative impacts on
aquatic life. chemical fertilizers can volatilize
back into the air, leading to greenhouse gases.
So even though chemical fertilizers can sound
like a better solution, you know, compared to
animal products, they're still problematic. And
so, and the fact of the matter is, even if we
buy non -organic food, it might still be fertilized
with animal products anyway. So with veganic,
what we're doing is we're essentially taking
all the good things about organic, because there
are so many good things about organic in terms
of working with wildlife more, building up soil,
having more of a polyculture, and just respecting
the earth more. But the issue with organic is
there's a lot of animal products used in it,
which doesn't align with our values and isn't
sustainable. And so basically with veganic, what
we're doing is we're taking the basis that organic
agriculture has already created and we're going
one step further by removing those animal products
and using plant -based organic fertilizers. That's
crazy. How come the organic people, the organic
community, I don't know if they have a name,
is not aware of that harmful aspect of organic
farming? Is it a blind spot for them? I think
to some degree, I mean, one thing is we have
such a, you know, meat -centric society that
there are a lot of animal products floating around
that, you know, these kind of byproducts of animal
industries that sometimes people don't know what
to do with. So sometimes manure can be obtained
fairly easily. I think in the organic community,
oftentimes manure is associated with that thing
that builds, as being that thing that builds
up the soil. But, you know, one thing that we
remind people is that animals don't create nutrients.
So in animal manure, you'll find things like
nitrogen or potassium that plants need in order
to grow. But all of those nutrients that are
in the manure came from the plants that the animal
ate. So the animal did not produced nitrogen,
the animal didn't produce calcium or phosphorus
or anything like that. So much in the same way
that people say, well, milk is a great source
of calcium. It's like, well, the cow ate calcium
and then that calcium went in the milk, but you
could have just eaten a plant to begin with that
was high in calcium yourself. And it's similar
with manure that people say, well, manure is
a great source of nitrogen and it contains nitrogen,
but it's not the source of the nitrogen. The
source of the nitrogen is the plants that the
cow ate. And those plants get nitrogen from the
air. There are some wonderful plants that are
actually able to get nitrogen from the air. So
all of our legume plants, like beans and peas
and alfalfa and clover, they can actually just
take nitrogen from the air. And that's why in
my garden, I actually use alfalfa pellets as
a form of fertilizer, whereas on a goat farm
for example, they would feed alfalfa pellets
to a goat and then use the manure as fertilizer,
but I'm using the alfalfa pellets directly, and
one of my gardens is actually fertilized with
hay. So instead of hay being fed to a cow and
then using manure, I'm just using hay directly
to fertilize my garden, and it's more of a whole
food source. There's nothing that has been taken
out of it by an animal. It's actually got more
nutrients than manure would have. So with something
like manure, for example, sometimes people will
say, well, the animals kind of broken it down,
they've started decomposing it. But in my garden,
what I'm focusing on is having a very biodiverse
and lively soil life. So by putting things like
hay, on top of my garden. So I'm just putting
it on the soil as a mulch. It will just be broken
down by the microorganisms in my soil. So I'm
basically providing habitat and a food source
for natural microorganisms. So one thing that
we say about veganic is veganic gardens and farms
aren't free from animals, but rather veganic
gardens and farms are a place where all the animals
are free. Because we are really welcoming animals
in and working with natural systems. It's just
that in veganic, we're working in collaboration
with local wildlife and providing them with habitat
and food sources rather than having domesticated
animals that have been selectively bred for thousands
of years and that have been, you know, turned,
you know, monetized by our system, you know,
and exploited for generations. We're avoiding
the exploitation. And instead of participating
in an exploitation, we're participating in the
ecosystem around us. Let's get back to what you
said about chicken feces and how they contain
antibiotics and I'm sure hormones and other nasty
stuff that you would find in excrements, because
that's the body. uh, evacuating every bad thing
that, that is in a organism. I think we understand
that. How dangerous is that for someone who will
then eat the, uh, the, the products of that fertilization
process? So I think the most dangerous thing
directly to human health would be, uh, some of
the best bacterial contamination that can come
with animal feces. So things like salmonella
and E. coli. And occasionally we hear about outbreaks
where there's a recall of spinach or recall of
lettuce and then people think that there's a
problem with spinach and lettuce. but it's actually
in general fecal contamination. And that fecal
contamination can come from fertilizers. Fecal
contamination can also come from humans, for
example, you know, during the harvesting process,
if people have unwashed hands or things like
that, there are other ways that fecal contamination
can happen. But usually when we're looking at
things like spinach outbreaks and lettuce outbreaks
and these recalls and people getting sick, usually
it's from a manure source. And that can be from
a manure source that is sprayed directly on those
fields. And in some cases, it can be manure that
kind of washes in. It can be manure that washes
in from the field next to it or even from a factory
farm that's nearby. But that's really one of
the nice advantages of growing veganically is
we don't need to worry nearly as much about some
of these bacterial issues. That's not to say
that there can never be any bacterial contamination
in a veganic system, but it's going to be very,
very significantly reduced. So that's the thing
that would cause people to become sick in a more
immediate sense. But when we look, for example,
at rice that's grown in the US, you know, organic
rice in the US, there's arsenic contamination
in the organic rice supply. And that's because
of multiple sources of arsenic, but one of them
was related to the fact that chickens used to
be fed arsenic as something that kind of helped
keep the parasites down in their bodies. And
then they were kind of pooing that out. That
was spread out on rice fields. So that's not
the only source of arsenic in rice, but it's
one of the root causes. And so I don't think
that's still being practiced today with arsenic
being fed to chickens, but I think it was practiced
until relatively recently. And so there's all
of these ways in which I substances that we really
don't want in our food system can end up in our
food system because of animal products. Thinking
about all the cross contamination scenarios possible.
Yeah, it's just disgusting. I mean, I feel like
if we told people that human feces were used
to grow their crops, they would get such a bad
you know, instinctive reaction. But if it's animal
feces, then, oh, it's perfectly acceptable. How
do you explain that double standard speciesism?
Well, I mean, the interesting thing is human
feces is sometimes used in our agricultural system.
And if somebody has a human -ure system at home
and they know what they're eating, they know
that there's just inputs from one or two people
and they're doing it with all the best standards,
that can actually be a great way to recycle nutrients.
But you have to, it has to be... allowed in the
area that you're living and you have to be very
very careful about how you do it. And I don't
practice that personally because I don't have
a great setup for it and I would personally have
a bit of an ick factor as you mentioned. But
in the kind of larger agricultural system there
are sometimes the residues of basically sewage
that can be used on farms and there's a lot of
farms that got put in a really tough position
with that because this was touted as something
that was environmentally friendly, you know,
we're going to kind of compost down or dry out,
you know, human sewage, it can be added to farms
and it's a, you know, great source of nutrients
that's super ecological and some farmers got
on board and now their fields are contaminated
for centuries because basically human sewage
waste also involves Industrial waste involves
whatever else happened to run down the storm
drains. You know, if you think about even all
the cars that are driving by and the contaminants
that come off of cars and that getting washed
into the sewage system. So if anyone ever sees
anything that contains human waste, I would not
suggest using it because the level of contamination
is especially high. But in terms of the ick factor,
Honestly, I think a lot of people do find it
a little bit icky. We just don't tend to think
about it very much. And I think also a lot of
people just consider it necessary. And so, you
know, interestingly, there's a lot of people
who grew up being icked out by the idea of eating
animals. You know, I know that when I was younger,
I thought the idea of eating animals was gross,
but there was certainly you know, a while in
my youth where I was also confused about is this
necessary and what are the alternatives and what
else would I eat and things like that. And I
think when it comes to farming and gardening,
you know, when people do even think about things
like manure, sometimes they just think it's necessary.
And if you look at gardening blogs and books
and websites, it'll just keep reinforcing. this
idea when people say hey my tomatoes are having
this issue people will be like add bone meal
and you know or add animal feces and I think
it's something that's cheap and prevalent and
that people are just so accustomed to that most
folks aren't calling it into question very much
and one thing I actually find that's really interesting
is some of the farmers who we've spoken with
the farmers don't always start from the angle
of, I'm a vegan, I believe in animal rights,
and so I'm going to farm veganically. Some of
them do, for sure. But some of them are starting
from that angle of, I don't want to bring contaminants
onto my land, or I want to be as self -sufficient
as possible, and I don't like the fact that bringing
in manure would mean that I'd actually have a
much bigger land footprint if you look at kind
of the whole life cycle of what I'm growing.
You know, I don't want to have to import stuff
in with trucks. I don't want to drain fertility
from other lands. And so some folks who have
really started from that, you know, I want to
be more self -sufficient and as ecological as
possible, have actually ended up going toward
veganic because if somebody decides, for example,
that they want to produce their own manure on
site by having cows, for example. The amount
of land that takes is so significant compared
to just doing it in a veganic way. And also,
you know, people sometimes think of manure as
being this fast solution because, you know, it's
already partly broken down and it can fertilize
quickly. But the thing is, you know, if someone's
producing their own manure, they have to let
that sit and compost for several months because
of the issues like E. coli and salmonella. Whereas
when our vegan farmers that we collaborate with,
when they produce something like alfalfa or clover,
which are again these wonderful, wonderful plants
that are able to get nitrogen from the air. they'll
grow things like alfalfa and clover to use as
a fertilizer for their other plants and they
can use them right away. We've spoken to farmers
who have said that switching to veganic for them,
one of the benefits that they didn't imagine
coming was just the straight -up peace of mind,
the relaxation, knowing that they weren't going
to poison any of their customers, knowing that
they could use these plant materials right away
in their fields and they didn't have that worry
and that stress that they had with manure, because
with manure, they were like, okay, is it decomposed
enough? Is this okay to use? Is it free from
contaminants? Whereas once they switched to plants,
they were like, oh, I just cut down some clover.
I'll just put it on my fields right away and,
or mix it in with the soil and it's just going
to decompose there. And I no longer have to worry
about that ick factor and that ick factor of,
you know, is it straight up going to make other
people sick? Interesting point. You mentioned
how Sometimes we get those alerts that your lettuce
is contaminated with E. coli and don't eat that.
So there is a level of control from the government.
But how tight is that control? And what about
developing countries? Do we know what they're
up to? Because they're not under the supervision
of the Canadian government or any developing
developed countries government where I would
assume that you know rules around agriculture
are following higher standards so do you know
anything about how how much manure or if they
use you know sometimes maybe human waste to grow
crops in developing countries? It's a good question.
I don't think I'm the best person to answer it.
It's very, very difficult to keep up on which
country uses which technique and what are the
regulations, even between some of the countries
that I interact with the most between Canada,
the US and England. It can be quite difficult
for us to keep up on. What are the loopholes?
What are the most common practices? What are
the majority of farms doing? Because each country
can have its differences. For us, our focus is
really looking at how can people move away from
animal products and switch to plant -based products.
So we put almost our entire focus on sort of
research and development and knowledge building
in terms of how can we practically put plant
-based practices into action and we'll be talking
a little bit about the veganic summit that's
coming up this November 7th to 9th that everyone's
invited to but we have some speakers joining
us from Uganda and India who are putting veganic
practices into place in their regions and one
thing I love about veganic practices is how universally
applicable they are. So when we look at things
like nitrogen fixing plants like clovers or using
grasses and compost and leaves for soil fertility.
These are practices that we can really put in
place in so many different countries. So that's
what I'm most focused on and very excited to
see how applicable veganic is in so many different
countries and so many different climates. Also,
what about the farmers? You know, we talked about
the consumers, but what about the farmers who
are manipulating those products on a day to day
basis? Do they get sick from using, you know,
animal waste? Yeah, it's a good question. One
of the farmers at the Veganic Summit, his name
is Jimmy Videli, and he actually Back when before
he started farming veganically, he was doing
kind of standard organic with having animals
and purchasing animal products. And at one point
he ended up with an E. coli infection, I think
in his hand. And so it was basically a scenario
where he had got a small cut and picked up a
bag of manure the same day. And and there was
just a tiny little bit that got in. But even
things like. breathing in the fumes of manure.
I mean, many of us are in scenarios where if
we're out in the countryside and we drive by
a factory farm, we suddenly realize that there's
this horrible stench. But that horrible stench
can also come from people spreading manure in
fields and beyond being just very, very unpleasant
for everybody in the neighborhood, as well as
the farm workers. you know, it actually does
emanate certain substances that aren't good for
our health when we're breathing them in. And
that's something that I don't have the details
on me right now regarding which substance and
what effect, but I do encourage people to do
a little bit of research into that. But for sure,
there absolutely can be uh instances in which
farm workers could become sick from using animal
products and one of them too was you know back
in uh the mad cow crisis there were concerns
around um you know there's blood meal and bone
meal that come from cows during the mad cow crisis
and these come in powdered forms so if people
are spreading them you can accidentally inhale
a bit and so there were you know certain cautions
at the time around people wearing masks when
using some of these substances. And so yeah,
there are various health concerns that that could
come about. Are they subsidized to use animal
waste for as fertilizers? That's a good question
that I don't have the answer to. And again, I
think that would be something that could vary
from from region to region. Okay, let's talk
about how to fight this. Okay. Let's say, um,
someone is listening to this podcast in a urban
area and they're thinking, well, how do I change
my, you know, how do I recognize products, uh,
in the store that are from the organic farming
versus from, you know, grown with animal fertilizers?
Uh, is there a certification, you know, organic
farming certification to distinguish products.
So there is a certification program in North
America called Certified Veganic, and there's
also a certification program in the UK that's
called Stock Free Organic Certification, and
stock free basically means without livestock.
But both of those are typically used by individual
farms who are selling direct to the consumer.
Uh, so usually in more of a CSA model where people
would pay to get, uh, you know, baskets from
that farmer, you know, for a full season or some
farmers who might sell locally at their farmers
market. Uh, there's a few farmers who are veganic
who maybe sell a handful of things online. Uh,
but for the moment right now, one thing I can
suggest is people can go to one of our websites,
the veganic agriculture network website, which
is goveganic .net. And we do have a veganic farm
map. that's available that you can take a look
at. Now, for the moment, that map is for farms
that are self -declared as veganic rather than
necessarily certified, but it's a good starting
point. But there's a good chance you'll find
that there's not a farm in your area because
there's many farms that aren't on that map and
it's something that's still relatively new. I
mean, finding a veganic farm today might be like...
you know, trying to find an organic farm a few
decades ago. You know, it's something that there's
still a bit few and far between. I will say that
in a grocery store setting, there is a company
called One Degree Organics that sells through
grocery stores, and they produce their food in
a veganic way. That said, they do have a couple
of products that actually aren't vegan. They
have a couple of products that they've added
honey to, and so you do have to look at the ingredient
list and make sure it's vegan to begin with,
because they have done a couple of straight -up
non -vegan things. But for their products that
are vegan, they are also produced in a veganic
way. And they've kind of taken that angle more
for the health side of things than for the animal
rights side of things, which is perhaps why they
have some inconsistencies from a vegan perspective
with using honey in a couple of products. But
most of their products are vegan. like fully
plant -based and using organic techniques. So
that's, you know, I sometimes eat some of their
oatmeal or breakfast cereal for example. But
aside from that for the moment, I mean one of
the most empowering things we can do is learn
how to grow our own food and that can involve
starting a garden on our balcony or in our backyard,
that could be getting a plot at a community garden
and doing that in a veganic way. Or it could
be getting together with a few other vegans,
one of whom has, you know, a larger piece of
land and growing together. And that's really
one of the most empowering ways that we can start
to grow veganically. And aside from that, as
I mentioned, just the idea of several several
dozen vegans even coming together and supporting
one farmer. I think that's one of, again, the
best ways that we can create change. Aside from
that, you can speak with farmers in your area,
ask them what their fertilization techniques
are, ask if they've ever considered trying veganic
techniques or if they'd consider having... part
of their farm in veganic techniques and I think
having some of those conversations and you know
we also need people working on all levels you
know we need people lobbying you know to have
funding available for farms to transition and
things of that nature you know as you mentioned
with subsidies right now a lot of subsidies go
to things like directly subsidizing animal agriculture
or subsidizing the corn industry which ends up
becoming animal feed and we need more subsidies
that are going toward uh plant plant food production
and the transition process of farms because that
transition process can involve some learning
you know it could that that learning curve you
know can can take a little bit of time in some
cases it might involve uh you know getting a
few new materials or a new piece of equipment
or whatever it might be. And so the more that
farmers can be supported in that transition,
both by consumers and hopefully by government
subsidies too, those would be wonderful directions
to head to make this more widespread so that
one day when people look at that organic map,
they will be able to find a place right near
them. That's beautiful. I never heard of some
of those. tactics, um, like getting together
and knocking on the door of a farmer and saying,
Hey, uh, do you want to have lots of clients?
We're all interested in purchasing, uh, organic
products. And if you do, if you transition to
that model, we'll become your permanent clients.
Um, that's just a beautiful idea. And of course
you are at the forefront of that weight. uh,
the organization of the summit with the network.
Did you get any, did you feel like there, did
you get any obstacles or opposition to your ideas?
And, you know, from outside the vegan community,
maybe, um, the big ag industry and also from
inside the vegan community. We really haven't
had much in the way of opposition and pushback.
Um, we tend to present things in. a very friendly,
welcoming, accessible way. And so I think we're
presenting things in a way that doesn't invite
a lot of pushback. And maybe we've just been
lucky that people who would push back haven't
been too active or vocal with us. Maybe we're
too small for people to notice. And maybe when
we do experience pushback, maybe that will be
the sign that we're growing more. But within
the vegan community, I think in general, People
are very, very supportive of the idea. I do absolutely
understand the concept, but there's other things
that people are individually going to do first.
In general, people are going to cut out meat
and cut out eggs and dairy and then... start
to understand some of the other ingredients like
whey powder that we also don't eat as a vegan
that maybe, you know, we didn't know about. And
there's so much learning to do as we're switching
over to a vegan diet. And so I think that the
gardening side of things is something and the
farming side of things is something that's not
going to occur to people right away. But I think
once we are hitting that point of being comfortable
in veganism and ready to take on some other aspects,
I think it's a wonderful one to take on. Much
in the same way that, you know, when we become
vegan it might take a little bit of time to realize,
oh yeah, how do I buy shoes in a different way?
Okay, you know, there's this learning curve and
with veganic there's also a learning curve. But
I think especially for folks who are growing
their own food at home, as you can imagine, A
vegan who walks into a garden center, and that's
not the opening line of a joke, that was just
an actual scenario. A vegan who walks into a
gardening center, especially if you go over to
that organic aisle, you're going to just see
these things that say organic, eco -friendly,
and it'll say like eco -friendly chicken manure.
And it's just factory farm chicken manure. They're
touting as eco -friendly because it's being reused.
you know, even though it comes from this horribly
exploitative and unsustainable industry. And
even if you try to buy potting mix and things
like that, it might not say at all what's on
the ingredients or the ingredients might say
compost and you might think, well, that sounds
great. It says compost, that must be okay. But
it might be composted shrimp residues. I mean,
it could be anything of that sort. And so much
in the same way that when vegans start to go
grocery shopping you get confronted with this
thing of okay here's you know a few things i
can find amongst a bunch of other things that
aren't vegan or if you go to restaurants you're
looking for that one or two vegan things on the
menu and asking some questions well vegans who
garden end up facing those same conundrums because
obviously i would not want to buy blood meal
or bone meal and the The interesting thing is
I've been gardening for 15 years and I almost
never go into garden centers because I'm producing
almost all of my own fertilizers on my own. I'll
be composting plant matter from my yard and I'll
be, you know, using things like hay or straw.
So it's very rare that I actually go into a standard
garden center. And when I do, I can be a little...
a little disappointed by the options. I would
like to see a point in the future where it's
easier for vegans just to go in and grab stuff
off the shelf that's labeled as veganic, that's
certified veganic, but where most things you'll
find in a garden center right now are either
animal -based or chemical -based. And so one
thing I sometimes say to folks is that being
a vegan gardener today or a vegan farmer today
is like being vegan in the 1970s. So back in
the 70s, vegans were making their own tofu, making
their own veggie burgers. They were the only
vegan in their town. And that's what being a
vegan grower is like today. It's very grassroots.
It's very much like a kind of do -it -yourself
thing where you look around and you're like,
what materials do I have and what can I do with
them? And we actually teach an online gardening
course called the Learn Veganic Course. And that's
a place where we actually show people like, here's
what you can do with your grass clippings. Here's
what you can do with your neighbor's leaves that
fell. When you take their leaves and you let
them decompose and you turn it into this wonderful
substance that can really improve your soil.
And so the interesting thing about veganic, where
we are with it today, is that just by virtue
of the fact that there's not a whole lot of commercial
options available we end up being so much more
sustainable because we end up looking at like
okay what can I use and what I can use is things
like leaves and tree branches from my neighborhood
which is actually way more ecological than buying
anything from the store. That's amazing. Make
your like the ultimate vegan. The last evolution
of what veganism is. Yeah, it's crazy how you
think that you've figured out everything and
now it feels like you're at square one because
you did not consider veganic farming. And I think
it's cute that you want us to become farmers.
I actually love gardening. I think it's very
therapeutic. I recommend it to everyone. It's
beautiful to put your hands in the soil and see
the progress, how a seed can become a tomato
plant and give you that many tomatoes. It is
a beautiful process that feeds you, you know,
literally feeds you, but also spiritually feeds
you. It's yeah, I'm sure you have more beautiful
words to describe that. Yeah, I mean I can say
that for me when I first started gardening I
was almost doing it out of a feeling of social
responsibility I you know, I kind of looked at
what's my environmental impact in my life? What
can I do to change it? So I was like, okay I'm
gonna start learning to ride my bicycle long
distances so that I can you know cut down on
yeah, you know the use of gas -powered vehicles
and I'm going to start at least learning how
to grow my own food. Even if I'm not growing
most of it, I should at least be growing some
of it. I at least need to learn that process.
And at that period of my life, which was, you
know, about 15, 20 years ago, I kind of embarked
on those things out of this feeling of like,
I should do this. This is the right thing to
do. I'm just going to like teach myself how to
do it because it's, you know, ethically coherent
and good for the planet. And then once I started
doing these things, I was like, Wow, this is
amazing. It's amazing in ways I never anticipated
it would be. And it is just so fascinating to,
as you say, start from a seed, end up with this
huge plant that's giving you all of these harvests.
and you know sometimes even in the first years
I would almost just let my plants become too
mature because I just wanted to see what would
happen. I was just fascinated like what's gonna
happen if I just let this keep growing and I
don't harvest it and you know starting to save
seeds, seeing all of these insects and other
critters coming into the garden and seeing like
wildlife coming back and Yeah, I was actually
surprised to see that this thing that I was just
like, yeah Okay, I better learn how to do this
became into something that I became so passionate
about and that is still a passion of mine all
these years later and I do still try Every year
to try new things and to experiment because you
know, I think that many of us enjoy novelty,
we enjoy experimentation and so this year we
started growing a lot of mushrooms in our garden
in ways that I hadn't experimented with before
so that was fascinating and it's got my mind
rolling. A lot of the time I'll be going about
my day and then I'll suddenly start thinking
of this three or four year plan for something
I can do to increase my soil fertility while
getting a bunch of strawberries and a bunch of
mushrooms out of the process and Yeah, it's just
absolutely fascinating. And I'll say, Ryan, I
mean, I'm a gardener who doesn't necessarily
want to farm myself. I do realize that there's
a lot of things in life that are fun and therapeutic
for five or 10 hours a week. And then if you
bring it up to 40 or 50, maybe not quite so much.
So I'm extremely grateful for everyone who does
take on farming because I think it is you know,
it's such a noble profession to feed other people
and I do think that we need more scenarios where
you have people collaborating together so that
you can have several people farming together
where each person is doing that on a part -time
basis and contributing in different ways and
also just to be very, very grateful to our farmers
and to recognize I think one of the things when
we grow our own food, when we grow our own tomatoes
and our own lettuce and we're patiently waiting
for it for weeks or months, we can start to understand
that food does have a certain value, not only
because it's necessary for our survival and in
that sense has an incredible value, but just
the amount of work and time and patience that
goes into growing it. I really do think that
we need to be willing to support our farmers
and also willing to purchase from them in different
ways. When I mentioned the idea of several people
getting together, you know, dozens of people
getting together to support a farmer in scenarios
like that, you also need to be willing to go
pick up a basket at a certain park every Thursday
afternoon and do certain things that are maybe
different from just walking down the street to
our nearest grocery store. If we want to support
this transition, we need to be willing to be
active members in it. Yeah, I garden for myself,
for friends, for family, you know, I offer some
of what I produced every year and it's such a
joy, such a beautiful gift to make. I don't do
it to sustain myself for the entire year. And
yeah, I realize how much effort that would require.
Yeah, definitely. So I asked you about, you know,
opposition from Big Ang. What about then the
concept of, let me find the right words, regenerative
agriculture? Have you heard of that? Okay, so
regenerative agriculture in and of itself is
the idea of regenerating soil. So it's the idea
that the forms of agriculture that we use should
make the soil healthier, and more biodiverse
that they should be increasing the organic matter
instead of depleting the soil. So oftentimes,
especially when we look at big industrial agriculture,
what they're doing is they're putting on chemical
fertilizers oftentimes, which does nothing to
increase the... biomass of the soil. It does
nothing to feed the soil life, which means that
the soil life just dies off. And then they'll
come through with big tractors that are kind
of turning everything. So it's even difficult
for fungal life to survive in that environment.
And so you end up in a scenario where you can
have dirt, kind of dead dirt, instead of vibrant
living soil. And you can have dirt that is losing
its organic matter, that's losing its nutrients,
that's losing its structure over the years. So
with regenerative, the idea behind it is, you
know, let's have systems that build soil health,
that build soil quality, and that, you know,
create a soil that's going to be fertile for
us, for our lifespans, but also for future generations.
And there's nothing in and of itself with that
that needs to be related to animal agriculture.
Now the interesting thing that's happened is
that the regenerative movement, it has about
six or seven different kind of main practices
in place and one of them can be adding animals
like cows to the system. But for some reason,
In recent years, regenerative has almost become
synonymous with having some cows grazing. And
so we end up with this false equivalency, the
same way that we could have a false equivalency
between, I need to eat protein, so let's eat
steak, or I need to have calcium in my diet,
so I better drink milk. And you know, people
can be like, OK, I want to regenerate my soil,
so I guess I need cows. And it's just become
this false equivalency where if we just go back
to the root of the matter, which is I'd like
to have soil that I regenerate and that's in
good health and that I'm building up that soil.
Well, that's a fantastic goal. But there's nothing
where in and of itself that would require having
raising animals like cows that come from a completely
different continent and have been selectively
bred and aren't native to this area. And the
interesting thing is too, you know, there's sometimes
arguments that are made about, well, back in
the day there were buffalo running around and
yet... Oftentimes, people still insist on the
idea of putting cows in places where buffalo
didn't run back in the day, you know, in areas
where maybe there used to be boreal forests or
other completely different ecosystems. So with
veganic, we do look at the idea of how can we
regenerate our soil. That is so fundamental,
but we're doing it with things like one of my
favorite ways is that there's a material called
chipped branchwood and or ramiel chipped wood,
and that's just taking really small branches,
ones that are just a few centimeters in diameter,
chipping them up, adding them to the soil. That
can actually cause some temporary fertility issues
for a few months, so it's more of a long -term
solution as it breaks down. But if we think about
our forest environments, you know, a lot of these
soils were built up over thousands of years because
leaves fell, and twigs fell and they broke down
and they created these incredibly fertile soils.
We came in and we clear cut it and we used it
as agricultural land and we depleted it. And
so, you know, what I do in my garden is I'll
use things like leaves and twigs and they build
up incredibly fertile soils. And some of our
folks, the farmers who are speaking at the Veganic
Summit, some of them use a technique called green
manures. which sounds disgusting on the surface
if you just imagine green manure but green manures
is actually just plants and green manures are
basically plants that you grow to feed back to
the soil instead of growing them to eat them
yourself and so green manures are plants that
you might grow because they're really good at
protecting the soil during the rainy season or
because they're going to get nitrogen from the
air to give back to the soil or because they
might be really good at getting phosphorus from
the soil. And then when you feed it back to the
soil, you're basically increasing your organic
matter and improving your soil structure. And
so yeah, I mean, we love the idea of regenerating
soil, we just don't think there's any particular
reason why we need to exploit animals along the
way to do it. I mentioned the organic summit
in the introduction. But I want you to describe
what it feels like to go and visit the summit.
And what can we expect? You mentioned a few guests
from other countries from outside North America,
which is exciting. What other surprises can we
expect for this year's edition? Yes, so the Veganic
Summit is just this wonderful event and we do
invite everyone to join us. It's three days and
it's fully online so people can join us from
anywhere in the world. And basically we have
farmers and gardeners from around the world who
are coming to share the ways that they have successfully
put veganic techniques into practice. so that
people can learn how to do it themselves or be
better positioned to advocate on behalf of veganic
growing. And so we've got some wonderful farmers
joining us from India and the U .S. and Canada
and England. And one fellow, Bob Rumansi, is
joining us from Uganda where he actually has
an amazing project. He got 50 communities in
his region of Uganda to start gardening veganically
in kind of collective gardens with a few dozen
people gardening in each of these 50 different
gardens. And it's just absolutely impressive
what he has managed to do when he goes around
giving advice and support to these different
gardens over the course of the growing season.
And yet we have the charities and non -profits
coming to speak to like the Vegan Organic Network
that's based in England that has been promoting
veganic gardening and farming since 1996. They're
coming to join us and they'll be speaking about
different ways that you can bring veganic growing
to your community because they have been working
on bringing veganic growing to schools, getting
people sprouting at home, and also helping to
support farmers who are transitioning. There's
a group in Scotland called Stock Free Farming.
They're showing a little documentary about three
farms that they assisted in their transition
from livestock farming to veganic methods. And
so I'll be speaking about 20 different ways that
you can fertilize your farm or garden using vegan
techniques, because there are so many ways that
we can fertilize veganically. And so I want to
give people just that little kickstart into thinking
about what materials you have in your region
that you could use to fertilize with. And, you
know, it's also community building. You know,
we have an online community that people can join
to connect with other folks. And so whether somebody's
a gardener, a homesteader, a farmer, or someone
who's just really curious to learn more about
veganic, because, you know, this is a way that
sometimes People can get tripped up when it comes
to veganism. You know, sometimes people will
say Well, hey, your food's grown using animal
products, so veganism isn't really possible.
And it is completely possible. And so if people
want to learn about veganics in more detail,
especially some of the specific techniques or
seeing examples of what people are doing, it's
a great way just to become more informed about
the topic. And one thing we're super excited
about this year is that we have several virtual
farm tours. I went to visit one farm in Quebec
this summer to film, and then some other farmers
took out their cameras during the growing season
and went around their farms and gardens to show
what they're up to. And so really one of our
goals is to share organic practices from every
scale, from someone having a garden, to someone
trying to be self -sufficient, to somebody running
a commercial farm. no matter what scale we're
at, we can always take some ideas and advice
from people who are doing things differently.
And yeah, so I mean, if people are interested
in joining, I, you can sign up for free at veganic
summit .com. And we would love to see folks there.
It's happening from November 7 to ninth. That's
amazing. I will be there, you know, watching
all of those lectures and you know, asking questions.
This is such an interesting and exciting area
of the animal rights movement of the vegan movement.
I am truly looking forward to it. And I invite
people to come and join us. And did you want
to add something, Meg, before we stop the recording?
I just want to mention that Everyone can find
some way or another to become a gardener. Even
if you're in a situation where you're in an apartment
with no backyard, even if you don't have a balcony,
you can even start sprouting, for example. growing
something like broccoli sprouts or clover sprouts.
The wonderful thing about those is you don't
need soil and you don't need fertilizer. So it's
one of the easiest ways to get started without
animal products is doing something where you
can grow sprouts in about five days, six days.
And it's something that's a wonderful way to
have fresh food that you can eat all winter long.
costs very very little and it's so easy to do
and if you try something like sprouting and you
mess it up well you can start again and it's
just five days before it's ready so if you're
listening to this and you just want one little
place to get started that's what I would suggest
because you can do that at any time of year and
and even the colder months are are even better
than the warmer months and yeah again gardening
is just such a joy so if you do have a balcony
space backyard space, front yard space, community
garden, friend's yard, family's yard, anywhere
like that, I would suggest just giving it a go,
growing a few plants. And yeah, just it's, it's
such a wonderful way to interact with nature
and to regain some essential skills. Five days,
only five days, I'm sold. I'll be doing this
all year long. Thank you. Meg, this has been
a pleasure. I learned so much from this conversation
and I will definitely take greater interest in
vegan farming. You're welcome to come back to
the show. Thank you so much for all of the good
work you're doing, Meg. You're really a pioneer
of this movement, truly. Thank you, Meg. Well,
thank you for having me here today, Ryan. Thank
you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you
to share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action. Again,
thank you so much for caring and I will see you
next Tuesday for a new episode.