WEBVTT

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Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan

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and today I want to discuss the tens of millions

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of hands that are kept in the backyards of your

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neighbors. There are currently more than 85 million

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hands in the US, at least 1 .2 million in the

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UK, 2 million in Australia, and those global

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numbers, they were a fraction of that only yesterday.

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Virtually all of those hands have been bred by

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the poultry industry and for every one of them

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there was a male chick systematically eliminated.

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For me this is a fire in the house situation

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and I wanted to talk with other vegans who share

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that feeling with me, who think it is time to

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sound the alarm bell and wake up other vegans

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to this unfolding tragedy. So, for this episode,

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a group conversation with Julian Priesmeister,

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the executive director of the Truth Organization,

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who are behind egg -truth .com, the reference

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for everything related to the poultry industry.

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Haydee Mansfield, founder of Bell & Fleur, a

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UK -based non -profit dedicated to rescuing hens.

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and Liz White, the leader of the Animal Protection

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Party of Canada, thanks to whom backyard chickens

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were banned in Canada's biggest city, Toronto.

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Links in the episode's notes to connect with

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all those amazing activists. And today, more

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than ever, I ask you, please share this episode

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with the vegans you know. This conversation needs

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to happen. Backyard chickens were not a thing

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a few years ago. We can revert back this trend

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or at the very least stop it in its tracks. Follow

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the show for more meaningful conversations. Thank

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you. I've been obsessed with the debate online

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around backyard eggs. And the question is often

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framed as is eating an egg from your backyard

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chicken vegan or not and I felt strongly that

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this question missed the whole point which was

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that backyard chickens should be made illegal

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and so there was this blind spot that I noticed

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in the whole debate and conversation online about

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backyard eggs and so then I recorded an episode

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and released an episode about that two weeks

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ago and I was expecting I think a positive reaction

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but I was surprised by how many vegans were opposed

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to the concept of making backyard chickens illegal

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in a municipality or any place out there and

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I guess their opposition stands on this idea

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that it is innocent to have a backyard chicken

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and you know you're not harming the chicken and

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in fact if you're if this is a rescue chicken

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then you're doing good and you're advancing the

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animal cause I was quite surprised by that reaction

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and I feel it's another blind spot. So my first

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question for you is, why is there such a blind

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spot in the vegan community? Yes, Heidi? Yeah,

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I think certainly on the back of rescue and rehoming

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hens, of course, when you say that you're rescuing,

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immediately the... understanding is that you

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are stepping in to save a life so therefore it's

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a good thing but of course nothing is black and

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white and there are many shades within within

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that that I have seen that causes me great concern

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in terms of who is doing the rescuing what experience

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they have and what their intention is for that

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hen or that flock of hens. So I think it's understandable

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there's a blind spot and I think it's understandable

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that a lot of people make the assumption that

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it's benign to have backyard hens. Unfortunately

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yes, there's a lot within it because of course

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they're a living being and a sentient being with

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requirements and needs and a lot of people go

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into it fairly blindly and of course then sadly

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many hens will end up suffering because of ignorance

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and whilst it may not be malicious ignorance

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it's ignorance nonetheless and hens will suffer

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so I've seen it many times I see it driving around,

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you know, I went past a place yesterday and I

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could see the hens, you know, they were in really

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rubbish conditions and I just thought, you know,

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it's a backyard flock, but that's not a happy

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flock and it's not a healthy flock. They're just

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kind of being left and so it doesn't sit very

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comfortably with me. However, it's also a very

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tricky situation. because there are so many hens

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who do need rehoming and it's finding a balance

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between doing it in a way that secures the welfare

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for those animals you know in a world where sadly

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we do need to try and rehome or to help as many

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as possible it's such a complicated complex scenario

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So it's very difficult to work out a truly ethical

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approach to it because of course, you know, whilst

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the industry still exists, there's going to be

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millions and millions of hens who get slaughtered,

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who never get the opportunity of a life outside

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of the farm. But it's never black and white that

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every hen that does get a life outside of the

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farm gets a good life. So it's very complicated.

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Good point. Julie? Yeah, I agree. I think it's

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a tricky one because there's many aspects to

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this one. It's like it's what you say the vegans

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are opposed to Making it illegal. That's one

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aspect to get as a new chickens and start a new

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flock from you know from scratch versus rescuing

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chickens from a battery farm or cage free farm

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and then consuming it because take I mean every

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vegan is just it's just a person with all our

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flaws have become you know, and But I always

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thought that The one thing we as vegans, if you

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want to say that, agree is that we try to avoid

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exploiting animals as much as we can, especially

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if there's alternatives. And I think there is

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no need to eat eggs, right? I think we can all

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agree to that. We have alternatives like any...

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Nutritional value and egg would bring to your

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diet can be replaced by plant -based foods. And

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I think most vegans, I'm sure, know that. So

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I'm baffled that people come forward that would

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describe themselves as a vegan and would say

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it's okay to keep backyard chicken if they're

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rescued because it's still an exploitation of

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the animal. And even if we think we give them

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a better life, we still send the message that

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it's okay to consume eggs. People might just

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see you eating that egg. They don't know you

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had it from the rescue chicken or whatever chicken.

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You still normalize the consumption of eggs,

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which is the labor of a hen, which is a sentient

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being that suffered laying that egg no matter

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where the hen came from and what previous life

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she had before you ate that egg. So it really

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baffles me that vegans come forward and are opposed

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to making it illegal. I understand that people

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that wanna make better, that believe in welfare

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systems, that believe in welfare labels, that

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they think that keeping back your chickens is

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the better options because for some reason so

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many people think we have to choose between two

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evils and don't see the third option going egg

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-free, just leaving eggs out of, you know. out

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of your kitchen. I get it from that aspect that

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they want to have control over their food sources,

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they want to have control over the welfare of

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those animals, which you do not have if you get

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eggs from a supermarket, you just don't know

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where they came from. But yeah, it really baffles

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me that the vegan community speaks for backyard

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chickens. I do not have an answer why that is,

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to be honest. Liz, do you want to add something?

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Sure. I think we're still in a headspace that

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chickens lay eggs and, you know, that's just

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what they do without understanding the biological

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effect on chickens of laying eggs, losing the

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calcium, having depleted bones, all sorts of

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concerns related to... the actual egg laying

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process. And I think that people don't really

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understand the biology of chickens and why it's

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really necessary for them not to lay. You know,

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if you're, say for example, you're rescuing several

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birds from a barn where they've been egg layers,

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that's what their job was. you know those hands

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are utterly and completely depleted and yet you

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know they're still laying eggs and I think people

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don't realize the condition of the chickens that

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come from those places and how important it is

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to if you're going to rescue the chicken focus

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on the chicken not on the egg and see if you

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can bring that animal back to health I know a

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a rescue group down in southwestern Ontario that

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they rescue 30 to 50 hens out of a barn of egg

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layers that are going to slaughter. And of those

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50 birds, they all lay eggs all over the place.

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Like they just drop them everywhere. But the

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eggshells are very thin. You know, there's all

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sorts of problems with the birds. the woman that

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runs the place is able to nurse them back to

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health without using the eggs. And so I think

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we think of farmed animals as animals that serve

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us. Even having been vegan for a long, long time,

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I think people historically in their life have

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lived through times when you just you know, you

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went to the fridge, you got out an egg, you had

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an omelet or whatever, and you didn't even think

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about it. And so I think we need to push those

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folks to begin to think about what is it that

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you are doing to the bird? Because that's where

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your moral compass is, is the bird. And if it's

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harmful to the bird, then you shouldn't be doing

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it. And every indication is, you know, in the

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complex system that we have for chickens, there

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is no thought to the animal welfare aspect for

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chickens, as far as I can determine, either egg

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layers or broilers. And so I think we need to

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educate those people and to say, no, we shouldn't

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do that. They're not our servants. They don't

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produce us food. No. Thank you, Liz. Julie? Yeah,

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I fully agree with what Liz said. We shouldn't

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you know benefit from from that strain and that's

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suffering that hang also But I was just had a

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thought when this was speaking that I don't know

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if you can give more details about the the feedback

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that you got are they In favor of keeping backyard

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chickens for the sake of rescuing hands from

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Like current like you know commercial farms is

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that why they said if we would make it illegal

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to keep backyard chickens We could never help

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the hands that are currently housed in industrial

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farms. We could never rescue those. Was that

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a motivation that they might have? Or is it because

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they still think that the consumption of egg

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or eating eggs with those hands would be okay?

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I wonder if you can maybe share some details

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if they shared that. That was just a thought

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I had, the aspect of being able to rescue, basically.

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Yes, that feedback was twofold. First, there

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were people saying, you know, you're going too

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far. You're bringing veganism to an extreme level

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by saying that, you know, even a backyard chicken

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that you're treating well, you can't get eggs

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from them. This is going too far and you're turning

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off people with that rhetoric. And then there

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were other vegans saying, hey, but I'm doing

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some rescue efforts here. Yes, I live in urban

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centers or suburbia, but I use my backyard to

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rescue chickens or to help in the rescue of chickens.

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And how is that harmful? It's not. But my point

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was, of course, This is short sighted. And if

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you make it illegal for you in a suburb or a

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city center to keep back your chickens, you also

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make it legal for your neighbors. And just addressing

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the point of welfare, as a vegan, you might treat

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them well. And I'm not sure if you're able to

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treat them that well because There is no veterinary

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care available, and the backyard is very small.

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But what about your neighbors? There's no guarantee

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that they will treat the hens with care. In fact,

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you know, Haiti just mentioned a case where they

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were overcrowding chickens in one backyard, and

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that happens a lot. You know, again, it's I feel

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strongly that this is a short sighted position.

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Anyone wants to react? Yes, Haiti. I think it's

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I completely agree. And I think for me, the bottom

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line is intent. The same with everything in life.

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You know, it's about your intent. You know, when

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I first got into rehoming hens, it was. back

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in 2017 and I said to my partner you know we

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were trying to go down there taking more control

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over our food sources so we wanted some hens

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for eggs that was you know we and I said can

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we rescue I've heard about rehoming so I'd like

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to rescue thinking you know this is this is a

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good way of doing this and also you know having

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some eggs that we can you know monitor the welfare

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of hens, it didn't take me very long to realise

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that the hens came in very poor condition. They

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had emotional, psychological, physical needs.

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That was the start of my journey. So if I hadn't

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have done that, I wouldn't be here now trying

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to educate people. I think if you made having

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backyard flocks illegal and I can fully see why

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there are so many instances where that would

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be preferable because many people's intention

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is purely I want eggs so I'm going to have hens

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whether they're rescue or from breeders you know

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there's so many backyard breeders which creates

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a whole another realm of welfare issues and you

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know yeah just a nightmare. I think making it

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illegal kind of cuts out the potential for people

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to actually develop a relationship and see just

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how sentient these creatures are and then completely

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changing their mindset. Do you see what I mean?

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There's something within having a backyard flock.

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I agree, it opens it up to abuse and all the

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rest of it, but it's, I think it's very difficult

00:17:35.259 --> 00:17:40.039
to make a one solution to fit all situations.

00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:42.440
You know, my bottom line is, yeah, absolutely

00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.140
the intent is to look after the hens and to give

00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:49.380
them the best life and to help educate people

00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:53.099
by sharing them, you know, sharing them on my

00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:56.210
channels. and learning more as well, so that

00:17:56.210 --> 00:17:58.690
I can advise other people and try and help other

00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:01.230
people. Whilst we live in a world where this

00:18:01.230 --> 00:18:04.690
is the way it is for now, we can fight towards

00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:09.950
changing it, we can fight towards getting more

00:18:09.950 --> 00:18:13.170
people eating less animal products and stopping

00:18:13.170 --> 00:18:16.670
and moving into vegan and plant -based lifestyles.

00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:21.180
It's a very transitional period, I think. You

00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:24.019
know, I just don't see it quite as black and

00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:28.779
white as that. Um, Liz, would you like to react?

00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:33.339
I understand exactly what you're saying, Heidi,

00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:38.740
because I think making that connection with a

00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:41.619
specific animal that you would never have made

00:18:41.619 --> 00:18:44.799
a connection with and understanding how wonderful

00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.559
they are and how amazing they are is really good

00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.720
thing. The problem that I have with it is that

00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:56.740
the whole issue of backyard chickens above and

00:18:56.740 --> 00:19:00.579
beyond rescue, because I suspect that 99 % of

00:19:00.579 --> 00:19:02.279
the people who have backyard chickens aren't

00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:07.599
rescuing. The whole phenomenon of saying, well,

00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.700
all you can have in your backyard is a rescued

00:19:10.700 --> 00:19:16.039
chicken has implications above and beyond for

00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:18.869
other species. in the area and so on depending

00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:22.470
on how healthy the birds are plus it means that

00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:25.410
it supports this tiny little part of the rescue

00:19:25.410 --> 00:19:29.549
supports the huge backyard chicken operations

00:19:29.549 --> 00:19:32.470
where you rent chickens and you rent their habitat

00:19:32.470 --> 00:19:35.829
and you send them back and the organization says

00:19:35.829 --> 00:19:37.809
you know oh we'll save them for you over the

00:19:37.809 --> 00:19:39.789
winter but you can't tell the difference between

00:19:39.789 --> 00:19:42.980
one chicken and the next And you wouldn't send

00:19:42.980 --> 00:19:45.319
your dog away for six months, but you send your

00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.380
chickens away who are either your pets. So I

00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:52.799
think there's the backyard chickens in a way,

00:19:54.019 --> 00:19:58.079
not the rescue part, but the others in a way

00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.400
enhances the disrespect for the birds because

00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:03.559
they're just tools that sit in the backyard that

00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:07.000
produce what the people want at the time. And

00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.599
I think, so then I agree with you, it's really

00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.269
hard to separate out. those people who do take

00:20:13.269 --> 00:20:16.609
chickens from a rescue operation out of the goodness

00:20:16.609 --> 00:20:18.390
of their heart and try and give them a really

00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:23.269
good life for what they have left. But I think

00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:26.990
because it expands the whole discussion about

00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:29.410
who can have backyard chickens, where they can

00:20:29.410 --> 00:20:32.569
be, where they get them, all that sort of stuff

00:20:32.569 --> 00:20:35.670
makes the whole issue way more complicated. And

00:20:35.670 --> 00:20:37.970
then on top of that we have a complication that

00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.420
people who rescue backyard chickens like to eat

00:20:40.420 --> 00:20:46.039
the eggs and consider that not a problem. It

00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.559
may not be physically a problem for the bird

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.039
depending on how healthy the bird is, but it

00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.359
does beg the question about what it is to be

00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:03.430
a vegan, I think. a business model is completely

00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:05.910
inappropriate and wrong. You know, we all know

00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:10.509
that. So for things like the hatching projects

00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:12.930
that we have in the UK, I don't know if you have

00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:15.630
them in Canada as well, which is kind of a similar

00:21:15.630 --> 00:21:17.630
thing as to what you were saying about people

00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:19.750
kind of renting backyard flocks. That's not something

00:21:19.750 --> 00:21:23.509
I've heard of over here, but you know, anything

00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:27.170
that commodifies or uses an animal for a business

00:21:27.170 --> 00:21:29.349
model, you know, is completely inappropriate.

00:21:29.529 --> 00:21:36.049
And perhaps Perhaps maybe contacting government

00:21:36.049 --> 00:21:41.690
to look at a registration that would only enable

00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:45.430
people who had gone through a process of registration

00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:51.730
for welfare to rescue backyards or to rescue

00:21:51.730 --> 00:21:58.129
hens from slaughter. Would that minimise? the

00:21:58.129 --> 00:22:00.650
potential for people to misuse the animals, I

00:22:00.650 --> 00:22:02.630
don't think, or certainly all the UK government,

00:22:02.829 --> 00:22:04.950
I don't think would care. You know, I've tried

00:22:04.950 --> 00:22:07.230
to speak to them about hatch projects and things

00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:09.410
like that. And these businesses that, like you

00:22:09.410 --> 00:22:11.829
say, you know, will take the birds back or the

00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:14.329
chicks back and the government doesn't care over

00:22:14.329 --> 00:22:19.579
here. So I don't know. probably wouldn't be something

00:22:19.579 --> 00:22:22.259
that they would explore to try and get rid of

00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:24.960
the occurrence of people basically going, yes,

00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.900
I would like some hens and yes, I'm going to

00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:28.599
use the eggs because that's what they're there

00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:36.440
for. It's so difficult. Yeah, it's a very impossible

00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.839
situation. For the listeners who don't know,

00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:47.460
what is this hatching project about? So in the

00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:53.140
UK, it started with primary schools. These companies

00:22:53.140 --> 00:22:57.259
set up so that children could witness the wonders

00:22:57.259 --> 00:23:01.640
of eggs hatching and chicks being born in incubators

00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.920
in the classrooms. It's gone to care homes as

00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.400
well. So, you know, like care homes with dementia

00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:13.750
patients. to give them this wonderful insight

00:23:13.750 --> 00:23:18.450
into the hatching of and the life cycle of chicks

00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:21.470
and then after about six weeks the chicks go

00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:23.829
back to these businesses and of course you know

00:23:23.829 --> 00:23:26.029
there's no control over the sexing of the chicks

00:23:26.029 --> 00:23:29.329
so some girls some are boys I've got five here

00:23:29.329 --> 00:23:32.950
three are boys two are girls that a lady messaged

00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:35.029
me in a panic because the care home was going

00:23:35.029 --> 00:23:37.690
to send them back to the company the boys are

00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:41.140
generally cold the girls They say, you know,

00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.720
they'll go back to a farm or, you know, like,

00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:46.579
that's a good thing. There's no control over

00:23:46.579 --> 00:23:49.000
it. There's no welfare legislation by government.

00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:52.359
And government will not stop these hatch projects

00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:54.599
of trying to speak to our education ministers

00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:57.200
and they just say it's down to the school's discretion.

00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.839
So essentially... the children are being shown

00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:03.599
this, the eggs hatching, the chicks going tweet

00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.400
tweet, lovely, cute, manhandled, passed round

00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.039
the classrooms, then they're sent back with complete

00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.500
disregard, completely disposable, you know, it's

00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:15.640
like their library books and it's an awful, awful

00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.880
thing. So, you know, I don't know if you guys

00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.940
have it or not, but I hope it doesn't become

00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:24.680
a thing over there because it's just another

00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:27.680
way of using animals and they're, you know, just

00:24:27.950 --> 00:24:33.869
Thank you for the explanation, Heidi. Julie,

00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:37.890
you wanted to react and I also want to have your

00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:43.490
take on Heidi's question that she raised. Is

00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:49.009
exposing people to chickens in their backyards,

00:24:51.390 --> 00:24:55.349
make them raise awareness on how we treat chickens

00:24:55.349 --> 00:24:59.559
as a whole? Just real quick to the hatching project.

00:25:00.380 --> 00:25:02.559
We've educated about it as well on our channels

00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:06.240
because as Heidi explained, it's terribly misleading.

00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.359
And also if you think about it, what do the children

00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:11.519
really learn? That you put eggs away from the

00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:13.480
mother, there's no nest needed, no mother had

00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.819
needed into a plastic incubator or whatever they're

00:25:16.819 --> 00:25:19.240
using. And the hatching, no one knows where the

00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:21.380
chicks go after. So the message you send to children

00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:24.079
is so misleading and just helps the industry

00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:29.019
get away with their... methods with their industrialized

00:25:29.019 --> 00:25:31.940
hatching and completely takes the actual lesson

00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:35.059
that children should learn as to every egg there's

00:25:35.059 --> 00:25:37.559
a hen and the hen takes care of the eggs and

00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:39.400
the bond between the mother and their chicks

00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:43.200
and the really complex social construct that

00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.279
already goes on between eggs and like all this

00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.759
is lost like none of this is is taught to the

00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.200
children and all they learn is you know chicks

00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.480
are disposable chicks can be as he said manhandled

00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:56.599
can be put in plastic containers can be shipped

00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:00.819
back and forth and yeah as you said there is

00:26:00.819 --> 00:26:03.559
many of those chicks even died in the classroom

00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:06.819
and i've heard of many teachers that were were

00:26:06.819 --> 00:26:08.759
absolutely horrified they were overwhelmed they

00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:10.500
didn't know what to do like they're trying to

00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:12.319
hide it so the children don't see it because

00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.059
they thought it might be traumatizing for the

00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:17.029
children so like i don't know why teachers still

00:26:17.029 --> 00:26:22.009
think this is a valuable addition to the classroom.

00:26:22.609 --> 00:26:24.690
And there's so many other ways to teach a child

00:26:24.690 --> 00:26:27.130
how an egg hatches, especially today with all

00:26:27.130 --> 00:26:31.470
the technology that we have. We do not need to

00:26:31.470 --> 00:26:34.450
have those little chicks suffer and die for a

00:26:34.450 --> 00:26:38.869
child to see how they hatch. So just to that

00:26:38.869 --> 00:26:42.670
point. And can you just repeat your question

00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:48.369
please so I can? Yes. The question Haiti raised

00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:52.890
around backyard chickens, so the idea is if people

00:26:52.890 --> 00:26:55.990
are exposed to, and please correct me, Haiti,

00:26:56.009 --> 00:26:59.569
if I'm not representing your view like I should,

00:27:00.170 --> 00:27:03.329
but the idea is if people are exposed to backyard

00:27:03.329 --> 00:27:06.490
chickens and real life chickens, then they are

00:27:06.490 --> 00:27:12.109
more sensitive and receptive to messages around

00:27:12.109 --> 00:27:18.009
defending welfare for chickens. All right. I

00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:20.390
mean, for what I see what's happening online

00:27:20.390 --> 00:27:22.890
with people that keep those foam stats and use

00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:25.750
their Instagram accounts to post about it. I've

00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:28.009
yet to see one that says I went vegan because

00:27:28.009 --> 00:27:30.490
I started keeping chickens and I see what it

00:27:30.490 --> 00:27:35.599
does to a chicken. I think. Culturally, we're

00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.460
so indoctrinated and like using animals for food

00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:41.339
and right now there's such a trend of this like

00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:45.480
wholesome You know homestead grow yourself, you

00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.880
know I don't know grow your own food and it's

00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.019
so misleading and and it's just it doesn't really

00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:56.220
help and as much as I agree that if if people

00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:59.119
and children Are in contact with animals that

00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.140
it usually raises their awareness and they're

00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:04.839
more sensitive to these animals. I wonder if

00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:09.039
that justifies a whole backyard chicken industry,

00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:13.160
which it is really, and does it really educate

00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:18.799
to the extent that it leads to a change and also

00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.019
a different relationship to the animals and that

00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:24.900
might change culturally as how we see where our

00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:28.359
food comes from and how we should treat animals.

00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:31.480
So it might work on an individual level, but

00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:35.980
I don't know if we can say that it's a solution

00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:39.700
that would work on a larger scale, really. That

00:28:39.700 --> 00:28:44.279
would be my thoughts on this. Hany? Yeah, I do

00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:50.000
realize I'm very much in a minority on my journey

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.539
and the kind of the passion with which I now

00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:57.240
try and, you know, share that with other people.

00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:01.920
You know, I still, I have a lot of followers

00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.869
and you know there's some really heartfelt comments

00:29:05.869 --> 00:29:08.410
and when one of my girls passes away you know

00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:14.089
the reactions are so much more in number than

00:29:14.089 --> 00:29:16.930
like my kind of daily posts of clan life as I

00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:20.930
call my rescue flock clan the clan you know when

00:29:20.930 --> 00:29:23.150
when one of the girls passes away there's there's

00:29:23.150 --> 00:29:26.869
a real outpouring of emotion But then when I

00:29:26.869 --> 00:29:29.769
put up a post kind of that pushes people in and

00:29:29.769 --> 00:29:31.849
to try and make those connections and join those

00:29:31.849 --> 00:29:34.490
dots, I do realize that there's a much lower

00:29:34.490 --> 00:29:41.519
uptake. So I didn't. I didn't mean that it's

00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.940
a justification for backyard flocks because I

00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.559
do understand that I am very much in the minority

00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.420
in terms of my journey with them and what it's

00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:51.900
kind of where it's brought me with my kind of

00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:55.240
ethical choices and you know diet and lifestyle

00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:59.579
you know everything in my kind of connection

00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:02.019
on an energetic level with all living beings.

00:30:03.040 --> 00:30:06.640
It's yeah, I know the majority of people don't

00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.079
follow that path as much as I would love them

00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:13.640
to. Yeah, I definitely didn't mean it's a justification

00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.299
for backyard hens. There's so many flaws in people

00:30:16.299 --> 00:30:22.240
having backyard flocks. Yes. Thank you for adding

00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.539
nuance to your point, Heidi. Liz. I just was

00:30:26.539 --> 00:30:29.259
going to say, Heidi, I think what you do for

00:30:29.259 --> 00:30:32.680
rescuing chickens is really wonderful. and shouldn't

00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.720
at all have to apologize for doing it and that

00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:37.940
you encourage other people to do similar things

00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:41.299
and learn to be vegan is really a good thing.

00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.039
So none of what we've said I think was met as

00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:47.940
criticism, it was just meant as just another

00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:51.259
maybe a bit broader point of view. I wanted to

00:30:51.259 --> 00:30:56.299
raise this oddity that's happening out in BC.

00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:02.160
where we have an ostrich farm with 400 ostriches,

00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.619
and some of the ostriches got bird flu and died,

00:31:06.619 --> 00:31:10.819
and then the rest of the ostriches survived,

00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.599
but the Canadian Food Inspection Agency wants

00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.980
to go in and cull the entire herd, or the entire

00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:21.299
flock of ostriches, in a very similar way that

00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:25.539
they do with a barn of 40 ,000 laying hands,

00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:31.940
um who some of who have died of bird flu um my

00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:36.839
my look at this is is i think is an interesting

00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:40.160
thing for us to consider there hasn't been even

00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.839
though a million chickens sorry guys um even

00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.420
though a million chickens have been culled in

00:31:48.420 --> 00:31:53.180
bc because of bird flu not one i've not heard

00:31:53.180 --> 00:31:56.359
of one organization we've we've talked about

00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:59.339
it but it's a big fight not one organization

00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:02.420
that's really talked spoken out about it opposed

00:32:02.420 --> 00:32:06.079
it exposed the way in which those birds die and

00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:10.420
yet for the ostriches we have an incredible number

00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:13.660
of animal rights people who are there not wanting

00:32:13.660 --> 00:32:16.619
them to die i don't want them to die either it's

00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:21.680
just the juxtaposition of these two birds one

00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:25.720
who are considered to be, I guess, wonderful,

00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:28.259
and others who are considered to be disposable.

00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.000
And I think it behooves us to look at the situation

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.740
and say, you know, what's going on here? Is there

00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:38.799
a way that we can, you know, dig into the people

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.299
who are there standing for the ostriches to actually

00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:45.099
come over and help the chickens? Anyway, that

00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:47.140
was just it's just an observation. That's all.

00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.180
That's a great observation. Yes, I've seen lots

00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:55.329
of buzz around this. um, ostrich situation, and

00:32:55.329 --> 00:32:59.130
we don't see the same outreach for the same level

00:32:59.130 --> 00:33:03.049
of outreach for what is happening to chickens.

00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:08.230
And I want to tie it to a risk, which is, which

00:33:08.230 --> 00:33:12.029
is the fact that having them is a vector of zoonotic

00:33:12.029 --> 00:33:16.569
diseases. So there are zoning laws for a reason.

00:33:17.049 --> 00:33:22.250
Um, and it is just Very recently that we've seen

00:33:22.250 --> 00:33:26.269
municipalities and political bodies changing

00:33:26.269 --> 00:33:29.569
those zoning laws in order to legalize backyard

00:33:29.569 --> 00:33:33.730
chickens without any concern for public health.

00:33:34.589 --> 00:33:38.589
Now, I find it worrying, you know, after having

00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:44.029
gone through the, you know, coronavirus pandemic

00:33:44.029 --> 00:33:49.930
that people have still did not learn their lesson

00:33:49.930 --> 00:33:54.730
about the risks that viruses pose on humanity.

00:33:55.569 --> 00:33:58.309
So what is your take on that, on how backyard

00:33:58.309 --> 00:34:03.109
chickens are a risk to public health? Yes, Heidi.

00:34:04.049 --> 00:34:07.029
Well, I certainly don't think backyard flocks

00:34:07.029 --> 00:34:13.010
are immune to any risk. Again, it comes down

00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:20.510
to the Education of the person who is caring

00:34:20.510 --> 00:34:25.150
for the backyard flock. I don't like terms keepers

00:34:25.150 --> 00:34:31.070
or owners for any animal. So guardian. You know,

00:34:31.070 --> 00:34:35.289
it comes down to an understanding of biosecurity

00:34:35.289 --> 00:34:38.690
and taking care of your hens. And again, I try

00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:40.309
and post about this sort of stuff. You know,

00:34:40.309 --> 00:34:42.809
my bottom line is I want to make sure that my

00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:47.789
girls and boys are absolutely safe. from everything,

00:34:48.309 --> 00:34:53.070
predators and biological risks, so I've educated

00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:55.949
myself and I'll do what I need to do to protect

00:34:55.949 --> 00:34:58.110
them and I'll share that information and hope

00:34:58.110 --> 00:35:02.710
other people pick it up. You know bird flu in

00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:06.570
the UK is being disastrous, I don't particularly

00:35:06.570 --> 00:35:08.809
trust the government in their handling of the

00:35:08.809 --> 00:35:11.869
situation, I don't particularly trust their testing

00:35:11.869 --> 00:35:15.320
or how they deal with the situations you know

00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.420
year on year the numbers are getting worse year

00:35:17.420 --> 00:35:21.139
on year the outbreak and the housing restrictions

00:35:21.139 --> 00:35:24.500
are getting like longer so the housing restrictions

00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:27.000
over here where backyard flocks have to be kept

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.679
you know under cover they're getting longer and

00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.340
longer but the numbers and the cases are getting

00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:35.239
bigger and greater so what they're doing isn't

00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:37.900
working over here For me, it's a common sense

00:35:37.900 --> 00:35:40.480
approach that you protect your area and you make

00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:42.980
sure you don't bring anything in. The commercial

00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:46.860
farms where they, on their websites, you know,

00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:48.920
you read all their blurb about how wonderful

00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.639
they are and how the welfare of the hens is vitally

00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:53.760
important and how their biosecurity measures

00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.440
are paramount to their operations. And yet time

00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:58.780
and time again, they're getting bird flu and

00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:03.440
the entire flocks are being. cold. And as you

00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:05.400
said, Judy, you know, the way in which they're

00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.159
being cold is just horrendous. And again, I try

00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:09.940
and share this because people haven't got a clue

00:36:09.940 --> 00:36:12.739
what goes on. You know, these mainstream methods

00:36:12.739 --> 00:36:17.699
of depopulating the flocks are just horrendous.

00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:21.480
And people this is kept from the public, you

00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.519
know, because they just don't want them to understand

00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:30.159
the the real you know, effect of this on the

00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:34.099
animals. I don't think the government over here

00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:36.920
has got a handle on bird flu or how to properly

00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.179
take care of it and to minimize the impact. They

00:36:40.179 --> 00:36:42.340
just want to minimize the impact on the industry

00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:47.179
and their profit margins. I did not realize how

00:36:47.179 --> 00:36:51.840
dire the situation was in the UK. Let me add

00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.179
just one small detail before passing the mic

00:36:54.179 --> 00:36:58.530
to Liz. When I recorded that episode two weeks

00:36:58.530 --> 00:37:03.389
ago, I did some undercover work. I called the

00:37:03.389 --> 00:37:07.130
biggest veterinary hospital in Quebec, the province

00:37:07.130 --> 00:37:12.230
where I live, and pretended I had backyard chickens

00:37:12.230 --> 00:37:18.369
and a hen with egg binding. And when I asked

00:37:18.369 --> 00:37:23.150
the operator you know, are there any veterinarians

00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:28.150
available to treat my chickens? She said something

00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:33.510
peculiar. She said there are some veterinarians

00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:38.150
who specialize in chickens, but it's only for

00:37:38.150 --> 00:37:43.550
commercial chickens. And because of biosecurity

00:37:43.550 --> 00:37:46.630
risk, they will not treat backyard chickens.

00:37:46.849 --> 00:37:51.269
I thought that was a fascinating, interesting

00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:56.550
detail. So Liz, it's really hard to tell how

00:37:56.550 --> 00:38:00.449
much backyard chickens contribute to avian influenza

00:38:00.449 --> 00:38:04.909
in Canada. And there's I think there's a good,

00:38:04.989 --> 00:38:08.929
good reason for that. They suggest that backyard

00:38:08.929 --> 00:38:12.460
chickens are a very minor part. of the contribution

00:38:12.460 --> 00:38:15.460
to avian influenza, but I suspect it's much bigger

00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:18.860
because once people know that if you call the

00:38:18.860 --> 00:38:23.099
CFIA in to look at your hens and one of the birds

00:38:23.099 --> 00:38:26.599
is sick and they're all going to die, they're

00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:30.599
going to kill all the birds, that's the mantra

00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:34.920
that they do, that a lot of people just won't

00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:39.130
report it. and won't have the CFIA come in. And

00:38:39.130 --> 00:38:41.710
as you point out, a lot of veterinarians, even

00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:44.289
if they know about chickens, won't handle them

00:38:44.289 --> 00:38:46.269
because they're afraid that they're going to

00:38:46.269 --> 00:38:48.969
pass the avian influenza on from a backyard chicken

00:38:48.969 --> 00:38:53.789
to a big commercial operation and so on. What

00:38:53.789 --> 00:38:57.929
they found in BC, interestingly, with the CFIA

00:38:57.929 --> 00:39:02.010
exterminating barns of chickens, that they had

00:39:02.010 --> 00:39:04.389
so many barns that they had to contract it out.

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.519
And the contractors were passing the avian influenza

00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.239
on from the barn that they had depopulated to

00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:18.019
a barn that was a suspect. And so, you know,

00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:22.280
so I think, you know, we don't understand the

00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:27.880
viruses enough to understand what kind of, you

00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:33.219
know, what kind of, how it affects people and

00:39:33.219 --> 00:39:39.090
how it affects animals. And certainly, Haiti,

00:39:39.349 --> 00:39:41.570
it sounds like you do a really good job at protecting

00:39:41.570 --> 00:39:44.170
your chickens from all of that. But most of these

00:39:44.170 --> 00:39:47.070
birds just sit out in a backyard somewhere. And

00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:49.869
birds are in and out and all sorts of animals

00:39:49.869 --> 00:39:56.510
that carry avian influenza. And so it makes it

00:39:56.510 --> 00:39:59.650
harder to control the disease once you have,

00:40:00.349 --> 00:40:05.260
say, 150 backyard chickens in one city and 250

00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:09.360
in another city. How does the CFIA even begin

00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.920
to decide how to control avian influenza with

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.219
that kind of distribution? If you have all birds

00:40:16.219 --> 00:40:19.400
in one barn, that's pretty easy. You can go in

00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:21.380
and do what you have to do, which is horrendous,

00:40:21.619 --> 00:40:26.699
as Adi said. But it means that it's even harder

00:40:26.699 --> 00:40:30.699
to control avian influenza. This is frightening

00:40:30.699 --> 00:40:35.179
and You said less a few hundreds here and there

00:40:35.179 --> 00:40:37.699
but actually, you know, there are and you know

00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:41.000
that there are millions of backyard chickens

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.480
now Across one given country. I think in the

00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.119
u .s. It's eight millions backyard chickens So

00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:54.599
yeah, it's a big operation Haiti. Oh You you

00:40:54.599 --> 00:41:00.500
are muted I can do hens, I'm useless at technology.

00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.039
In the UK last year the government made it mandatory

00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:09.780
to register your hens for back, so any backyard

00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:11.980
flock you had to register your hens whether you

00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:18.559
had one hen or 50 hens. Prior to last year it

00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.179
was only if you had in excess of 49 hens you

00:41:21.179 --> 00:41:25.659
had to register your flock with dephra and the

00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:29.409
APHA. So last year they made it mandatory that

00:41:29.409 --> 00:41:31.349
everybody had to register their backyard flocks

00:41:31.349 --> 00:41:34.010
and there was a lot of, you know, conspiracies

00:41:34.010 --> 00:41:38.150
as to why and what have you. And whilst, as I

00:41:38.150 --> 00:41:40.110
said, I don't particularly trust the handling

00:41:40.110 --> 00:41:42.050
of these situations, you know, I have done it

00:41:42.050 --> 00:41:46.949
because it's a legal requirement, but it makes

00:41:46.949 --> 00:41:50.550
me even more resolute to ensure that my biosecurity

00:41:50.550 --> 00:41:57.760
is, you know, it is absolutely spot on. What

00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:01.599
was I going to say? So looking back at the statistics

00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:06.639
on the APHA website about every occurrence of

00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:09.980
bird flu, I went through all of them last year

00:42:09.980 --> 00:42:14.449
and there was not one backyard flock where bird

00:42:14.449 --> 00:42:17.829
flu had been discovered and they put in these

00:42:17.829 --> 00:42:20.989
surveillance zones and the death threat agents

00:42:20.989 --> 00:42:22.789
were going out and doing spot checks and I know

00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:25.030
a number of people had, you know, death threat

00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:28.309
agents turn up to check their flocks and to do

00:42:28.309 --> 00:42:30.210
like random testing and what have you to try

00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:34.090
and implement a safeguard for the egg industry

00:42:34.090 --> 00:42:37.369
by looking at backyard flocks but every single

00:42:38.319 --> 00:42:41.539
reported case was from commercial premises you

00:42:41.539 --> 00:42:43.719
know that doesn't mean that I agree with Liz

00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:45.239
what you said you know of course you know if

00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:49.340
somebody's hen starts displaying symptoms of

00:42:49.340 --> 00:42:52.300
avian flu and the risk is that the rest of your

00:42:52.300 --> 00:42:53.820
hens are going to be culled you're not going

00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:57.119
to want to to put your hand up and go my hens

00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.900
ill you know I completely get that that will

00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:02.079
you know happen and those people who haven't

00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:05.519
registered their flocks they're going to fall

00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.099
outside of this kind of control mechanism that

00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:11.860
the UK government's put in place. But it just

00:43:11.860 --> 00:43:14.440
struck me that the statistics that have been

00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.900
put on the website is that all the occurrences

00:43:17.900 --> 00:43:22.659
are from big commercial premises. And of course,

00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:24.619
the outfall of that is millions and millions

00:43:24.619 --> 00:43:28.000
of birds being culled. And what's very scary,

00:43:28.139 --> 00:43:29.780
Liz, what you said, which does make complete

00:43:29.780 --> 00:43:31.820
sense, is that the people who are going in and

00:43:31.820 --> 00:43:36.329
doing the depopulations or they're then transmitting

00:43:36.329 --> 00:43:39.510
it to other establishments. I mean, for goodness

00:43:39.510 --> 00:43:44.949
sake, that's really worrying. I want to correct

00:43:44.949 --> 00:43:48.349
myself. I said 8 million chickens in the US,

00:43:48.809 --> 00:43:53.250
but it was actually 85 million. I did not find

00:43:53.250 --> 00:43:57.750
a number for Canada. It seems there's no estimate

00:43:57.750 --> 00:44:03.519
for Canada. Liz? In almost every industrial country

00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.179
that I've looked at, we are very, very casual

00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:12.079
about viruses that are evolving, that don't affect

00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:15.300
us at the moment, but are evolving into something

00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:20.159
that could affect us. And even though they depopulate

00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:23.199
barns and do all sorts of different things, biosecurity

00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:28.179
here is not mandatory. Biosecurity is, you know,

00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.920
you hope to God the farmer. you know, takes his

00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:36.880
or her responsibility in raising these animals

00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:40.780
to not have avian influenza, but people go in

00:44:40.780 --> 00:44:44.860
and out, you know, all kinds of contractors come

00:44:44.860 --> 00:44:48.300
and go from the barns, and there is very little

00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:51.099
surveillance as to whether those biosecurity

00:44:51.099 --> 00:44:54.380
measures are actually being followed. And so

00:44:54.380 --> 00:44:57.519
you have avian influenza, which has now infected

00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:02.519
cows. and has infected human beings who were

00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:06.099
milking cows and taking care of cows. It hasn't

00:45:06.099 --> 00:45:09.519
yet spread from person to person, which is then

00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:15.460
pandemic style kind of thing, but we're not that

00:45:15.460 --> 00:45:20.199
far away from having it become like a COVID and

00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:23.059
the animals are gonna pay the price and we're

00:45:23.059 --> 00:45:27.659
certainly gonna pay the price. So I mean, I hope

00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:30.659
that we all sort of look at this issue and say,

00:45:31.099 --> 00:45:33.820
you know, we, I mean, obviously what we need

00:45:33.820 --> 00:45:37.280
to do is change how we handle animals or not

00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.360
handle animals at all. But certainly these big

00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:42.340
aggregate farms where there's a hundred thousand

00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:45.480
chickens in them or 200 ,000, you know, it's

00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:49.219
just sitting waiting to become a Navy and influenza

00:45:49.219 --> 00:45:54.190
hotspot. So. Thank you for that. Yeah, this is

00:45:54.190 --> 00:46:01.670
all very scary. I want to ask you to maybe give

00:46:01.670 --> 00:46:06.230
your opinion on how the poultry industry thinks

00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:10.349
about backyard chickens. Do they feel like backyard

00:46:10.349 --> 00:46:14.510
chickens are a threat to them? Of course, my

00:46:14.510 --> 00:46:19.150
opinion is that backyard chickens promote the

00:46:19.150 --> 00:46:24.159
consumption of chickens. stimulate the taste

00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:30.000
of people for eggs and just, you know, the poultry

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.960
industry can attach themselves to this backyard

00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:37.940
chicken business to just, you know, propagate

00:46:37.940 --> 00:46:42.340
the idea that it is humane to keep chickens and

00:46:42.340 --> 00:46:46.179
exploit them. And of course, there is the fact

00:46:46.179 --> 00:46:49.460
that this has become a very lucrative industry.

00:46:49.949 --> 00:46:55.989
I've seen one stat where it said that the backyard

00:46:55.989 --> 00:47:00.349
chicken industry would climb to one billion,

00:47:00.670 --> 00:47:04.610
one point something billion dollars in 2035.

00:47:05.909 --> 00:47:11.429
So that is money added to their profit margins.

00:47:12.989 --> 00:47:16.889
So yeah. How is the poultry industry, you know,

00:47:16.949 --> 00:47:20.349
big poultry thinking about backyard chickens

00:47:20.349 --> 00:47:24.369
heavy? I can't imagine they feel it's a threat

00:47:24.369 --> 00:47:28.070
at all given the numbers, you know, in comparison.

00:47:28.690 --> 00:47:33.809
And of course, the the egg industry is whole

00:47:33.809 --> 00:47:37.969
egg and liquid egg and egg that goes into ingredient

00:47:37.969 --> 00:47:40.469
products. You know, you'll know the numbers.

00:47:42.789 --> 00:47:46.250
Certainly in the UK, I really can't imagine they

00:47:46.250 --> 00:47:48.690
will give two hoots really about the backyard

00:47:48.690 --> 00:47:51.929
for people who want to maybe sort of have their

00:47:51.929 --> 00:47:55.449
own eggs. I don't think they're... Sadly, if

00:47:55.449 --> 00:48:01.190
they notice any downturn in their sales, they'll

00:48:01.190 --> 00:48:06.190
just start adjusting, you know, the yield profit.

00:48:06.940 --> 00:48:09.659
ratio where they get more out of the hens and

00:48:09.659 --> 00:48:13.260
they put less in. Ultimately, yes, the hens will

00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:18.940
end up suffering. But yeah, in answer to your

00:48:18.940 --> 00:48:21.360
question, I really can't imagine that they're

00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.159
massively bothered. Thank you, Julie. Yeah, I

00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:28.480
agree. I haven't read any articles coming from

00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.340
the poultry industry that would indicate that

00:48:30.340 --> 00:48:33.579
in any way feel threatened or see it as a potential

00:48:33.579 --> 00:48:36.909
risk in the future. That's clear, because as

00:48:36.909 --> 00:48:38.889
Heidi said, the numbers are just too low. So

00:48:38.889 --> 00:48:42.570
even if everyone who has the space would adopt

00:48:42.570 --> 00:48:45.389
backyard chicken, it would not replace the egg

00:48:45.389 --> 00:48:49.269
industry. And I think it helps the egg industry

00:48:49.269 --> 00:48:54.210
because it normalizes egg consumption. It normalizes

00:48:54.210 --> 00:48:57.650
seeing animals as a provider of food, as we mentioned

00:48:57.650 --> 00:49:01.449
before. And on top of that, I think people that

00:49:01.449 --> 00:49:05.530
have backyard chickens, I mean, I don't think

00:49:05.530 --> 00:49:08.989
they avoid other eggs from other sources, so

00:49:08.989 --> 00:49:10.989
they would still buy products where eggs are

00:49:10.989 --> 00:49:13.030
ingredients, or they go to a restaurant and have

00:49:13.030 --> 00:49:16.230
eggs there, or say they have a big bake coming

00:49:16.230 --> 00:49:18.429
up and their hands just didn't lay enough eggs

00:49:18.429 --> 00:49:20.750
the last day, so they still might go to the supermarket

00:49:20.750 --> 00:49:23.349
and buy a dozen. So I don't think someone who

00:49:23.349 --> 00:49:26.849
keeps beggar chickens completely replaces industrial

00:49:26.849 --> 00:49:31.550
eggs in that sense, so I think that doesn't...

00:49:31.449 --> 00:49:37.730
really minimize the demand that much. And what

00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:41.000
else? Yeah, and I think, as we said, backyard

00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:43.340
chicken as an industry is part of the poultry

00:49:43.340 --> 00:49:45.820
industry, like hatcheries benefit from selling

00:49:45.820 --> 00:49:48.579
chicks, and that's part of the industry, right?

00:49:50.019 --> 00:49:52.699
The parent flocks no one talks about, which are

00:49:52.699 --> 00:49:55.360
the ones that produce the fertilized eggs that

00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.400
hatch into the chickens that people buy, those

00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.699
are big industry, no one talks about it or have

00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:03.320
no welfare oversight. And they would still exist

00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:06.320
with backyard chickens and that's still part

00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:09.579
of the industry, part of the profit, part of

00:50:09.579 --> 00:50:14.260
the suffering. So I don't think there's any point

00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:18.119
in the future where backyard chicken are a threat

00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:22.539
to the big industrialized egg industry. Thank

00:50:22.539 --> 00:50:27.440
you Julie. Liz? Just briefly, just in watching

00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.739
what little bit of television I do, I've noticed

00:50:29.739 --> 00:50:32.820
that the industry, so the big chicken operators,

00:50:33.019 --> 00:50:35.099
are talking about chickens as though they were

00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:38.139
backyard chickens, that they love their birds,

00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:40.920
that they, each and every 40 ,000 birds, they

00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:43.699
just love them and they're all well cared for

00:50:43.699 --> 00:50:46.579
and the best possible life for these birds and

00:50:46.579 --> 00:50:49.639
all that sort of stuff. So I think, I think Julie

00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:51.820
and Hades, right, they're sort of a crossover

00:50:51.820 --> 00:50:56.920
of the industry picking up on that aspect of

00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:58.840
people wanting backyard chickens and wanting

00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:02.719
eggs in a different way to promote their industry

00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:07.159
in a similar way. Just kind of interesting. Then,

00:51:07.420 --> 00:51:12.480
you know, if we agree that backyard chickens

00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:18.460
are helping big poultry, that they are a risk,

00:51:19.340 --> 00:51:23.719
a public health risk, that their welfare is not

00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:30.980
guaranteed. You know, then as a movement, we

00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:34.800
should push for the criminalization of backyard

00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:38.099
chickens. I know that, Liz, you have experience

00:51:38.099 --> 00:51:41.260
in doing that. What kind of pushback did you

00:51:41.260 --> 00:51:44.880
receive? Well, we've been to a number of municipalities

00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.159
to see if we can get them to ban it. And the

00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:51.280
motivating factor was avian influenza because

00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:54.780
some of the barns around the areas where we went

00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:58.699
to had avian influenza and the municipalities

00:51:58.699 --> 00:52:01.900
were worried about all of that. So they've put

00:52:01.900 --> 00:52:03.579
up, well they haven't banned it, they've put

00:52:03.579 --> 00:52:07.239
a hold on it. So I wouldn't call it criminalization

00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:11.900
because I think that elevates the issue to where

00:52:11.900 --> 00:52:15.079
it's difficult to have a conversation. So we've

00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:19.780
promoted a ban in municipalities on backyard

00:52:19.780 --> 00:52:23.500
chickens and The first time we did it, the pushback

00:52:23.500 --> 00:52:27.300
from council was very interesting. They all sat

00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:32.219
around and during the discussion and, you know,

00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.940
sort of made fun of the whole debate. And of

00:52:35.940 --> 00:52:38.699
course, backyard chickens were allowed. And then,

00:52:38.699 --> 00:52:41.119
you know, avian influenza raised its ugly head

00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:46.199
and And so we were able to show by a map how

00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:49.820
close it was and all that sort of foolishness

00:52:49.820 --> 00:52:53.219
that council went through the first time they

00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:55.519
backed away from and actually decided to put

00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:59.559
it on hold. And they've extended that hold for

00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:03.039
the next few years as well. So we haven't got

00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:06.719
it banned, but the pushback in the community

00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:11.739
was pretty... They were good municipal citizens

00:53:11.739 --> 00:53:14.480
in the sense that they got involved in municipal

00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:16.519
politics, arguing that they should have backyard

00:53:16.519 --> 00:53:19.599
chickens. So there was quite a bit of pushback

00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:24.099
on it, but that pushback this time didn't go

00:53:24.099 --> 00:53:32.800
anywhere. So I think, as Haiti said, it's very

00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:36.340
attractive to people and it's a hard thing to

00:53:36.340 --> 00:53:40.400
say. You know, you shouldn't be doing it in certainly

00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:43.320
in an urban environment where you can't, you

00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:46.739
know, have biosecurity. Like it's just not possible.

00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:49.019
People wander in and out of people's yards. You

00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:52.820
know, it's all sorts of stuff. So anyway, yeah,

00:53:52.900 --> 00:53:56.719
lots of pushback. Which I don't understand because,

00:53:56.900 --> 00:54:01.840
you know, they are a source of noise. They can

00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.389
emit all sorts of... bad odors. So as neighbors,

00:54:06.389 --> 00:54:10.329
you know, you would, I feel you would support

00:54:10.329 --> 00:54:13.849
the idea of not having backyard chickens or living

00:54:13.849 --> 00:54:17.769
in a city where you cannot have backyard chickens.

00:54:19.050 --> 00:54:22.949
Then in that case, what do we say to the vegans

00:54:22.949 --> 00:54:26.230
who have those rescue chickens in their backyard

00:54:26.230 --> 00:54:31.880
who care for them? I don't expect a a clear answer,

00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:37.400
but what do we say to them to convince them to

00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:44.079
turn their resources and energy to banning backyard

00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:48.340
chickens instead of keeping them in their backyard

00:54:48.340 --> 00:54:52.840
as a rescue operation? Maybe I'll start. I think

00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:58.130
Julie is exactly right about the issue of Where

00:54:58.130 --> 00:55:00.909
are these chicks coming from when you get chickens

00:55:00.909 --> 00:55:02.889
in the backyard? Where are they coming from?

00:55:03.949 --> 00:55:07.010
If it's a rescue they are still coming from operations

00:55:07.010 --> 00:55:10.730
where you have females that produce fertile eggs

00:55:10.730 --> 00:55:14.889
so that you can So that the laying the sorry

00:55:14.889 --> 00:55:19.570
the broiler industry has enough chicks to continue

00:55:19.570 --> 00:55:23.489
on doing what they're doing and so Whether they

00:55:23.489 --> 00:55:26.420
like it or not. They're part of that system The

00:55:26.420 --> 00:55:29.159
minute you get involved in this, they're part

00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:32.119
of that system. And so it's really important,

00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:36.679
I think, to let people know that that is the

00:55:36.679 --> 00:55:40.739
case and that you shouldn't be part of it. You

00:55:40.739 --> 00:55:44.500
can rescue the chickens. That's totally okay,

00:55:45.019 --> 00:55:47.099
I guess. I mean, I think there's complications

00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:50.079
to that. But as we've talked about with backyard

00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:53.139
chickens, but if you're able to give support

00:55:53.139 --> 00:55:55.219
to those chickens and take care of them well,

00:55:55.389 --> 00:56:00.909
then I think it's okay, but I think all the other

00:56:00.909 --> 00:56:03.610
stuff is just feeds into part of the industry

00:56:03.610 --> 00:56:06.929
and we shouldn't be doing that as vegans. Heidi?

00:56:07.949 --> 00:56:14.929
Yeah, I agree. With all of those points, obviously

00:56:14.929 --> 00:56:18.539
I'm uncomfortable about stopping, you know, the

00:56:18.539 --> 00:56:22.059
rescue, you know, whilst we live in the climate

00:56:22.059 --> 00:56:24.940
that we do where, you know, any soul that can

00:56:24.940 --> 00:56:29.340
be saved is the soul that's saved. But, you know,

00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:35.639
again, I know my MO is, you know, far more extreme

00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:39.539
than a lot of other people. But I think in terms

00:56:39.539 --> 00:56:45.579
of putting energies into banning it I think energy

00:56:45.579 --> 00:56:50.980
needs to really go into like education and helping

00:56:50.980 --> 00:56:54.079
people understand the broader picture like Judy

00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:57.320
says about like where does it start you know

00:56:57.320 --> 00:57:01.300
the eggs don't just pop into the ether there

00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:04.380
they are you know there's there's all of the

00:57:04.380 --> 00:57:08.219
the ethical issues behind the the male chicks

00:57:08.219 --> 00:57:13.840
being killed the the breeding barns, you know,

00:57:14.179 --> 00:57:16.679
and you will know that I've posted about this

00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:19.820
on occasion to try and get people to like, you

00:57:19.820 --> 00:57:22.239
know, literally ask the question which came first,

00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:24.559
the chicken or the egg, you know, where do the

00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:27.820
eggs come from and all the ethical issues involved

00:57:27.820 --> 00:57:30.900
in the egg industry before the hen even gets

00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:34.360
into the, whichever welfare system they get put

00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:37.460
into, you know, there's a massive ethical issue

00:57:37.460 --> 00:57:41.710
prior to that. and helping to educate people

00:57:41.710 --> 00:57:44.789
that actually, when they make the decision to

00:57:44.789 --> 00:57:46.670
pick up an egg from a supermarket or a piece

00:57:46.670 --> 00:57:50.110
of cake that contains egg, or to buy hens to

00:57:50.110 --> 00:57:51.769
have in their backyard so that they can have

00:57:51.769 --> 00:57:54.530
their own eggs, when they make those decisions,

00:57:55.690 --> 00:57:58.869
what consequences are there for that decision

00:57:58.869 --> 00:58:02.610
in its entirety? And it's getting people to understand

00:58:02.610 --> 00:58:04.989
and see the bigger picture, including things

00:58:04.989 --> 00:58:08.630
like avian influenza and the backlash of you

00:58:08.630 --> 00:58:11.730
know, being involved in a potential modality

00:58:11.730 --> 00:58:15.889
of spreading the virus, you know, from going

00:58:15.889 --> 00:58:18.329
from your flock to, you know, I've got different

00:58:18.329 --> 00:58:20.230
wellies that I wear up there, different boots,

00:58:20.309 --> 00:58:21.949
I've got foot dips and all the rest of it, so

00:58:21.949 --> 00:58:23.989
it's completely enclosed, I don't bring anything

00:58:23.989 --> 00:58:26.309
in, I don't take anything out, but again, you

00:58:26.309 --> 00:58:28.530
know, that's a higher level of responsibility

00:58:28.530 --> 00:58:32.150
that everybody should have in order to safeguard

00:58:32.150 --> 00:58:35.969
having some hens in your back garden. But yeah,

00:58:36.110 --> 00:58:40.030
I think to put our energy into really educating

00:58:40.030 --> 00:58:42.570
people so that they can make better decisions

00:58:42.570 --> 00:58:45.650
and to also realize when they do make a decision

00:58:45.650 --> 00:58:48.670
just exactly who is suffering as a consequence

00:58:48.670 --> 00:58:51.469
of that decision. Yeah, it's a sensitive issue.

00:58:51.690 --> 00:58:55.090
Thank you, Hayley. Julie, you're an expert in

00:58:55.090 --> 00:58:58.239
educating people. Well, we're trying anyway,

00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:00.380
but yeah, it's a different thing to tell people

00:59:00.380 --> 00:59:02.320
not to have backyard chickens than to say, you

00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:05.480
know, battery cages are wrong. Obviously, the

00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:09.880
letter is accepted as a wrong and usually gets

00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:12.119
the reactions that we all hope for and people

00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:14.440
are appalled and want to make change. But to

00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:16.920
the point of vegans and backyard chickens and

00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:20.119
their energy, obviously, in terms of rescue and

00:59:20.119 --> 00:59:22.360
chicken, which always help in terms of education

00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:25.900
stories like that's why Haiti is so important

00:59:25.900 --> 00:59:29.360
to the movement and her way of telling and talking

00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:31.619
about the agonist student through her hands to

00:59:31.619 --> 00:59:34.019
her their rescue stories through their you know

00:59:34.019 --> 00:59:36.340
whatever stories they go through whatever suffering

00:59:36.340 --> 00:59:38.579
they go through it helps so much to have people

00:59:38.989 --> 00:59:41.369
have a name a hand with a name is already like

00:59:41.369 --> 00:59:44.309
so revolutionary considering that there are commercial

00:59:44.309 --> 00:59:47.250
flocks of thousands and millions that Haiti has

00:59:47.250 --> 00:59:49.610
a hand and her name was Fleur and this video

00:59:49.610 --> 00:59:52.309
is still ongoing and years after she's passed

00:59:52.309 --> 00:59:54.610
and that really gets people's attention that

00:59:54.610 --> 00:59:57.389
really touches their hearts and that really is

00:59:57.389 --> 01:00:00.280
a place where you then can start saying hey this

01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:02.800
is where she came from, this is why she looked

01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:04.860
the way she looked, that's why she suffered.

01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:09.019
So for that, it's in terms of education, having

01:00:09.019 --> 01:00:10.840
those hands and helping telling their stories

01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:14.719
is a really good way to connect to people. But

01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:17.340
again, it's always a slippery slope to use that

01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:20.340
as a justification for back, you know, back your

01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:22.659
sickness are okay, because it opens up to everyone,

01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:25.300
you can't just select, are you vegan, Daniel?

01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:28.150
Are you non vegan? You know, like it's I don't

01:00:28.150 --> 01:00:30.889
know we can get anywhere but when it comes to

01:00:30.889 --> 01:00:34.389
using our energy I think as a vegan if you're

01:00:34.389 --> 01:00:37.269
someone who wants to Speak about it and speak

01:00:37.269 --> 01:00:40.150
up for the animals definitely put the energy

01:00:40.150 --> 01:00:44.269
into educating in terms of our relationship with

01:00:44.269 --> 01:00:47.969
the animals Did you normalization of eating acts

01:00:47.969 --> 01:00:50.849
as a product of you know labor from the hand?

01:00:51.409 --> 01:00:54.369
That's something we should put the energy in

01:00:54.369 --> 01:00:58.070
Exposing just the grand scheme of the egg industry

01:00:58.070 --> 01:01:00.449
as you guys all mentioned before it's all part

01:01:00.449 --> 01:01:05.769
of the same system right expose that and just

01:01:05.769 --> 01:01:09.469
yeah just don't eat eggs and you know don't because

01:01:09.469 --> 01:01:11.730
you help normalizing it you help you know that

01:01:11.730 --> 01:01:14.030
cultural aspect it's totally fine there's no

01:01:14.030 --> 01:01:15.929
harm to it it's just an egg it's what they do

01:01:15.929 --> 01:01:19.250
anyway i'm completely ignoring the fact that

01:01:19.250 --> 01:01:23.719
the modern hen is a product of humans like the

01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:25.739
hand would not survive in the wild they would

01:01:25.739 --> 01:01:28.699
all die they need us they're created by us for

01:01:28.699 --> 01:01:31.280
us and used by us and that's something we should

01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:34.000
definitely highlight that this is not an animal

01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:36.139
that would roam free otherwise and we're just

01:01:36.139 --> 01:01:38.380
you know decided to take it into our homes and

01:01:38.380 --> 01:01:40.519
take the eggs that would come anyway they don't

01:01:40.519 --> 01:01:42.820
exist in the wild they don't they wouldn't survive

01:01:42.820 --> 01:01:46.400
in the wild um you know if you think it's healthy

01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:50.869
and normal and natural i don't think The eggs

01:01:50.869 --> 01:01:54.210
of chickens are that normal, you know compared

01:01:54.210 --> 01:01:56.949
to picking a mushroom in the forest, which is

01:01:56.949 --> 01:01:58.809
where it grows There was no human intervention.

01:01:58.809 --> 01:02:01.010
They're just there that you can pick but the

01:02:01.010 --> 01:02:04.590
hen the way they are today is a product of human

01:02:04.590 --> 01:02:09.349
intervention and like massive manipulation of

01:02:09.349 --> 01:02:14.730
the genome So, yeah focus on that and put the

01:02:14.730 --> 01:02:19.309
energy into educating and That would be my point

01:02:19.309 --> 01:02:21.829
of view in terms of storytelling and educating

01:02:21.829 --> 01:02:25.909
the public. Thank you, Julie. And careful what

01:02:25.909 --> 01:02:29.690
kind of mushrooms you're picking in the forest.

01:02:30.489 --> 01:02:36.949
Heidi? Yeah, as an example, in support of what

01:02:36.949 --> 01:02:39.769
Julie just said, I've got one little girl in

01:02:39.769 --> 01:02:43.949
the vets at the moment, Nut, who I've taken in

01:02:43.949 --> 01:02:48.940
for some x -rays and ultrasounds. and then a

01:02:48.940 --> 01:02:52.659
hormone implant because she's so just naturally

01:02:52.659 --> 01:02:55.639
inflamed in her abdomen. And I was saying to

01:02:55.639 --> 01:02:58.880
the vets today, you know, people think that hen

01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.920
laying an egg is such a benign process. It's

01:03:01.920 --> 01:03:05.440
natural. It's massively inflammatory to a hen

01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:10.579
and she is very obviously inflamed in her abdomen.

01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:14.079
So I want to do, it's like a little... study

01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:18.440
so we're taking some x -rays and ultrasounds

01:03:18.440 --> 01:03:20.619
and then we're going to implant to bring her

01:03:20.619 --> 01:03:23.420
off lay so that her body can rest and then we'll

01:03:23.420 --> 01:03:27.000
repeat x -ray and ultrasound and then I can kind

01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.320
of show the difference because when I say to

01:03:29.320 --> 01:03:31.320
people you know I could tell her I can tell a

01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.260
hen that's in lay obviously visually but if I

01:03:34.260 --> 01:03:36.960
had my eyes shot I could tell which hens in lay

01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:38.699
against the hen that is in lay purely by the

01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.320
feel of their abdomen because it's so inflamed.

01:03:41.550 --> 01:03:44.650
you know it's not it's not a natural process

01:03:44.650 --> 01:03:48.630
it's not a it's not a innocent benign function

01:03:48.630 --> 01:03:52.590
of nature you know as judy said um you know and

01:03:52.590 --> 01:03:55.809
trying to get people to understand this you know

01:03:55.809 --> 01:03:59.150
is part of the battle yes looking forward to

01:03:59.150 --> 01:04:03.050
the results and uh yeah visually it will appear

01:04:03.050 --> 01:04:06.289
well i think in on social media you know those

01:04:06.289 --> 01:04:10.500
x -rays Yeah, there's so much to address with

01:04:10.500 --> 01:04:14.599
this issue. It's just incredible. We did not

01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:18.420
even touch on insects, you know, insect farming,

01:04:18.500 --> 01:04:22.960
which is a new lucrative business, and how now

01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:27.019
there are insect treats in every pet shop around

01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:31.119
the world, because of the backyard chicken industry.

01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:36.659
So yeah. There is so much to address. So it seems

01:04:36.659 --> 01:04:39.940
like the backyard chicken industry and the poultry

01:04:39.940 --> 01:04:45.099
industry is also feeding into other forms of

01:04:45.099 --> 01:04:49.480
animal exploitation. Did you want to add some

01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:52.460
final words before I stop the recording, Heidi?

01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:55.860
Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a very interesting

01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:58.920
point you just raised, you know, extrapolating

01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:02.639
out from one small thing that killed hens, you

01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:05.119
know, it's very innocent. It's not a problem.

01:05:06.059 --> 01:05:10.000
But like say it kind of opens up different avenues

01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:14.639
for animals being abused and the normalizing

01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:20.590
of consumption. So I think, yeah. to keep promoting

01:05:20.590 --> 01:05:26.949
that as a backdrop behind what these hens can

01:05:26.949 --> 01:05:32.750
teach us. My goal is to try and steer people

01:05:32.750 --> 01:05:38.329
away from that connection. It's a small thing.

01:05:38.889 --> 01:05:42.099
I don't personally... use the word chicken, because

01:05:42.099 --> 01:05:44.800
it's so connected with food. So I always call

01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:47.440
them hens. It's a really small thing. But you

01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:49.019
know, when I hear people in restaurants going,

01:05:49.159 --> 01:05:51.400
Oh, I'll have a chicken this and a chicken that

01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:56.460
is just like, you know, it makes me just so even

01:05:56.460 --> 01:05:58.460
something as innocent as that using the word

01:05:58.460 --> 01:06:01.719
hen, I just try and take people away from that

01:06:01.719 --> 01:06:04.059
connection, because it's so programmed into us,

01:06:04.099 --> 01:06:05.920
we've all been programmed, you know, we didn't

01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:08.219
pop out of the womb vegan, we've all kind of,

01:06:08.219 --> 01:06:11.519
you know, transitioned through you know through

01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:15.219
our connections and what have you so I used to

01:06:15.219 --> 01:06:17.739
get very angry about people's choices now I just

01:06:17.739 --> 01:06:20.360
think well okay I was making bad choices you

01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:23.440
know a few years ago so I want to try and just

01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:27.099
gently educate people and show them that actually

01:06:27.099 --> 01:06:30.340
they can move away from from that programming

01:06:30.340 --> 01:06:32.920
that we've all been just programmed into thinking

01:06:32.920 --> 01:06:37.039
it's completely normal so I think any any discussions

01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.510
that come that open this topic up and get people

01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:44.130
to start thinking is really positive. Thank you

01:06:44.130 --> 01:06:47.210
for that insight, Heidi. Liz, you wanted to add

01:06:47.210 --> 01:06:50.530
something? I was just going to make an appeal

01:06:50.530 --> 01:06:54.090
to the vegans who are wrestling with this issue

01:06:54.090 --> 01:06:59.150
and to say, please, please do a deep dive into

01:06:59.150 --> 01:07:01.869
the entire of the chicken industry, because although

01:07:01.869 --> 01:07:04.750
you only have a few birds, they've all been part

01:07:04.750 --> 01:07:08.650
of that bigger industry. which is about utilization,

01:07:09.190 --> 01:07:14.269
maximizing profit, minimizing protections for

01:07:14.269 --> 01:07:18.929
the birds, et cetera. And I think if you really

01:07:18.929 --> 01:07:22.849
take a good, hard look at what chickens go through

01:07:22.849 --> 01:07:25.750
and what the industry is like, you might consider

01:07:25.750 --> 01:07:32.889
not eating the eggs. Thank you, Liz. Shuri? Maybe,

01:07:33.070 --> 01:07:36.440
so there's two things. If there's vegans that

01:07:36.440 --> 01:07:39.300
have chickens, I wish for them to share like

01:07:39.300 --> 01:07:42.500
Haiti does what they observe the chicken go through

01:07:42.500 --> 01:07:45.380
because they see it firsthand. Maybe also speak

01:07:45.380 --> 01:07:47.539
up about the complexity of keeping chickens.

01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:49.599
It's not just people still believe you feed them

01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:51.480
with your kitchen scraps and they just wonder

01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:53.719
about your yard and you take the eggs and all

01:07:53.719 --> 01:07:56.960
is good. Like we all know it's like we here all

01:07:56.960 --> 01:08:02.420
know it's a much more complex. Yeah, the social.

01:08:02.679 --> 01:08:05.579
lives of the chicken together, like the illnesses

01:08:05.579 --> 01:08:08.019
they go through, as you mentioned, access to

01:08:08.019 --> 01:08:10.679
that. So I just would wish for, if vegans keep

01:08:10.679 --> 01:08:12.800
hands for whatever reason, the rescued and eaten

01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.380
or not eaten eggs, please speak up about. all

01:08:15.380 --> 01:08:18.279
aspects of chicken keeping that you experience

01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:20.899
firsthand. Don't just share the nice stories,

01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:24.039
share everything. Obviously, to your discretion,

01:08:24.260 --> 01:08:26.140
like how much you share, some people are really

01:08:26.140 --> 01:08:28.600
visual, they literally take pictures of everything

01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:31.140
that comes out of certain chickens that are sick.

01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:34.180
But yeah, to your discretion, use that as educating

01:08:34.180 --> 01:08:36.020
people because you have firsthand experience

01:08:36.020 --> 01:08:39.960
and firsthand footage. And then overall, I would

01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:44.199
also advice not to go out now and hate on people

01:08:44.199 --> 01:08:46.159
that have backyard chickens. We should always

01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:49.279
try to find a point of connection where we already

01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:51.699
agree because people that do keep backyard chickens

01:08:51.699 --> 01:08:53.800
because they want to do better by the hand are

01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:56.600
already at a place where they recognize that

01:08:56.600 --> 01:08:58.340
there's something wrong with the ag industry.

01:08:58.920 --> 01:09:01.779
They already recognize that we should be kinder

01:09:01.779 --> 01:09:03.859
to animals and always use that as a connection

01:09:03.859 --> 01:09:08.800
point and make sure that we speak up and kind

01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:12.369
of support that they make a change and they look

01:09:12.369 --> 01:09:15.649
behind the curtains of the big ag so always try

01:09:15.649 --> 01:09:18.310
to find a connection point and not go in there

01:09:18.310 --> 01:09:21.729
negatively and speaking against it and try to

01:09:21.729 --> 01:09:23.810
through the connection find a way to nudge those

01:09:23.810 --> 01:09:26.409
people maybe it's just a tiny bit further as

01:09:26.409 --> 01:09:28.050
Haley is trying to do i know it's really hard

01:09:28.050 --> 01:09:33.140
but um I mean, just try your best to be empathetic

01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:36.180
and nice about it and help people to maybe just

01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:39.439
asking questions to make people start thinking

01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:43.479
about certain aspects differently and maybe even

01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:47.100
have them or just asking, you know, has any of

01:09:47.100 --> 01:09:49.260
your hands ever been sick? What is your experience?

01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:51.500
Just like kind of nudge them into a direction

01:09:51.500 --> 01:09:54.460
where they open up more about what they experience

01:09:54.460 --> 01:09:57.149
keeping those chickens and why they got to the

01:09:57.149 --> 01:09:58.770
oh you know how did they get to this place in

01:09:58.770 --> 01:10:01.189
the um in the first place what was their motivation

01:10:01.189 --> 01:10:03.789
and can we go a step further um that would be

01:10:03.789 --> 01:10:06.449
my advice for for vegans out if you want to speak

01:10:06.449 --> 01:10:11.430
up um for for the hands i wholeheartedly agree

01:10:11.430 --> 01:10:16.029
wonderful so thank you so much for for all of

01:10:16.029 --> 01:10:20.289
the good work you're doing and for speaking up

01:10:20.289 --> 01:10:23.649
about this issue. And thank you for having taken

01:10:23.649 --> 01:10:29.189
the time to appear on the podcast. Julie, Liz,

01:10:29.550 --> 01:10:32.850
you are returning guests many times for you,

01:10:32.949 --> 01:10:35.810
Liz. Hey, Dee, this is your first time on The

01:10:35.810 --> 01:10:38.970
Vegan Report, but hopefully not your last time.

01:10:39.710 --> 01:10:42.789
So thank you so much for your time and for having

01:10:42.789 --> 01:10:46.050
answered my questions. Thank you everyone for

01:10:46.050 --> 01:10:48.949
listening. I kindly invite you to share this

01:10:48.949 --> 01:10:51.869
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage

01:10:51.869 --> 01:10:55.810
more people to take action. Again, thank you

01:10:55.810 --> 01:10:58.810
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday

01:10:58.810 --> 01:11:00.270
for a new episode.