Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan
and today I want to discuss the tens of millions
of hands that are kept in the backyards of your
neighbors. There are currently more than 85 million
hands in the US, at least 1 .2 million in the
UK, 2 million in Australia, and those global
numbers, they were a fraction of that only yesterday.
Virtually all of those hands have been bred by
the poultry industry and for every one of them
there was a male chick systematically eliminated.
For me this is a fire in the house situation
and I wanted to talk with other vegans who share
that feeling with me, who think it is time to
sound the alarm bell and wake up other vegans
to this unfolding tragedy. So, for this episode,
a group conversation with Julian Priesmeister,
the executive director of the Truth Organization,
who are behind egg -truth .com, the reference
for everything related to the poultry industry.
Haydee Mansfield, founder of Bell & Fleur, a
UK -based non -profit dedicated to rescuing hens.
and Liz White, the leader of the Animal Protection
Party of Canada, thanks to whom backyard chickens
were banned in Canada's biggest city, Toronto.
Links in the episode's notes to connect with
all those amazing activists. And today, more
than ever, I ask you, please share this episode
with the vegans you know. This conversation needs
to happen. Backyard chickens were not a thing
a few years ago. We can revert back this trend
or at the very least stop it in its tracks. Follow
the show for more meaningful conversations. Thank
you. I've been obsessed with the debate online
around backyard eggs. And the question is often
framed as is eating an egg from your backyard
chicken vegan or not and I felt strongly that
this question missed the whole point which was
that backyard chickens should be made illegal
and so there was this blind spot that I noticed
in the whole debate and conversation online about
backyard eggs and so then I recorded an episode
and released an episode about that two weeks
ago and I was expecting I think a positive reaction
but I was surprised by how many vegans were opposed
to the concept of making backyard chickens illegal
in a municipality or any place out there and
I guess their opposition stands on this idea
that it is innocent to have a backyard chicken
and you know you're not harming the chicken and
in fact if you're if this is a rescue chicken
then you're doing good and you're advancing the
animal cause I was quite surprised by that reaction
and I feel it's another blind spot. So my first
question for you is, why is there such a blind
spot in the vegan community? Yes, Heidi? Yeah,
I think certainly on the back of rescue and rehoming
hens, of course, when you say that you're rescuing,
immediately the... understanding is that you
are stepping in to save a life so therefore it's
a good thing but of course nothing is black and
white and there are many shades within within
that that I have seen that causes me great concern
in terms of who is doing the rescuing what experience
they have and what their intention is for that
hen or that flock of hens. So I think it's understandable
there's a blind spot and I think it's understandable
that a lot of people make the assumption that
it's benign to have backyard hens. Unfortunately
yes, there's a lot within it because of course
they're a living being and a sentient being with
requirements and needs and a lot of people go
into it fairly blindly and of course then sadly
many hens will end up suffering because of ignorance
and whilst it may not be malicious ignorance
it's ignorance nonetheless and hens will suffer
so I've seen it many times I see it driving around,
you know, I went past a place yesterday and I
could see the hens, you know, they were in really
rubbish conditions and I just thought, you know,
it's a backyard flock, but that's not a happy
flock and it's not a healthy flock. They're just
kind of being left and so it doesn't sit very
comfortably with me. However, it's also a very
tricky situation. because there are so many hens
who do need rehoming and it's finding a balance
between doing it in a way that secures the welfare
for those animals you know in a world where sadly
we do need to try and rehome or to help as many
as possible it's such a complicated complex scenario
So it's very difficult to work out a truly ethical
approach to it because of course, you know, whilst
the industry still exists, there's going to be
millions and millions of hens who get slaughtered,
who never get the opportunity of a life outside
of the farm. But it's never black and white that
every hen that does get a life outside of the
farm gets a good life. So it's very complicated.
Good point. Julie? Yeah, I agree. I think it's
a tricky one because there's many aspects to
this one. It's like it's what you say the vegans
are opposed to Making it illegal. That's one
aspect to get as a new chickens and start a new
flock from you know from scratch versus rescuing
chickens from a battery farm or cage free farm
and then consuming it because take I mean every
vegan is just it's just a person with all our
flaws have become you know, and But I always
thought that The one thing we as vegans, if you
want to say that, agree is that we try to avoid
exploiting animals as much as we can, especially
if there's alternatives. And I think there is
no need to eat eggs, right? I think we can all
agree to that. We have alternatives like any...
Nutritional value and egg would bring to your
diet can be replaced by plant -based foods. And
I think most vegans, I'm sure, know that. So
I'm baffled that people come forward that would
describe themselves as a vegan and would say
it's okay to keep backyard chicken if they're
rescued because it's still an exploitation of
the animal. And even if we think we give them
a better life, we still send the message that
it's okay to consume eggs. People might just
see you eating that egg. They don't know you
had it from the rescue chicken or whatever chicken.
You still normalize the consumption of eggs,
which is the labor of a hen, which is a sentient
being that suffered laying that egg no matter
where the hen came from and what previous life
she had before you ate that egg. So it really
baffles me that vegans come forward and are opposed
to making it illegal. I understand that people
that wanna make better, that believe in welfare
systems, that believe in welfare labels, that
they think that keeping back your chickens is
the better options because for some reason so
many people think we have to choose between two
evils and don't see the third option going egg
-free, just leaving eggs out of, you know. out
of your kitchen. I get it from that aspect that
they want to have control over their food sources,
they want to have control over the welfare of
those animals, which you do not have if you get
eggs from a supermarket, you just don't know
where they came from. But yeah, it really baffles
me that the vegan community speaks for backyard
chickens. I do not have an answer why that is,
to be honest. Liz, do you want to add something?
Sure. I think we're still in a headspace that
chickens lay eggs and, you know, that's just
what they do without understanding the biological
effect on chickens of laying eggs, losing the
calcium, having depleted bones, all sorts of
concerns related to... the actual egg laying
process. And I think that people don't really
understand the biology of chickens and why it's
really necessary for them not to lay. You know,
if you're, say for example, you're rescuing several
birds from a barn where they've been egg layers,
that's what their job was. you know those hands
are utterly and completely depleted and yet you
know they're still laying eggs and I think people
don't realize the condition of the chickens that
come from those places and how important it is
to if you're going to rescue the chicken focus
on the chicken not on the egg and see if you
can bring that animal back to health I know a
a rescue group down in southwestern Ontario that
they rescue 30 to 50 hens out of a barn of egg
layers that are going to slaughter. And of those
50 birds, they all lay eggs all over the place.
Like they just drop them everywhere. But the
eggshells are very thin. You know, there's all
sorts of problems with the birds. the woman that
runs the place is able to nurse them back to
health without using the eggs. And so I think
we think of farmed animals as animals that serve
us. Even having been vegan for a long, long time,
I think people historically in their life have
lived through times when you just you know, you
went to the fridge, you got out an egg, you had
an omelet or whatever, and you didn't even think
about it. And so I think we need to push those
folks to begin to think about what is it that
you are doing to the bird? Because that's where
your moral compass is, is the bird. And if it's
harmful to the bird, then you shouldn't be doing
it. And every indication is, you know, in the
complex system that we have for chickens, there
is no thought to the animal welfare aspect for
chickens, as far as I can determine, either egg
layers or broilers. And so I think we need to
educate those people and to say, no, we shouldn't
do that. They're not our servants. They don't
produce us food. No. Thank you, Liz. Julie? Yeah,
I fully agree with what Liz said. We shouldn't
you know benefit from from that strain and that's
suffering that hang also But I was just had a
thought when this was speaking that I don't know
if you can give more details about the the feedback
that you got are they In favor of keeping backyard
chickens for the sake of rescuing hands from
Like current like you know commercial farms is
that why they said if we would make it illegal
to keep backyard chickens We could never help
the hands that are currently housed in industrial
farms. We could never rescue those. Was that
a motivation that they might have? Or is it because
they still think that the consumption of egg
or eating eggs with those hands would be okay?
I wonder if you can maybe share some details
if they shared that. That was just a thought
I had, the aspect of being able to rescue, basically.
Yes, that feedback was twofold. First, there
were people saying, you know, you're going too
far. You're bringing veganism to an extreme level
by saying that, you know, even a backyard chicken
that you're treating well, you can't get eggs
from them. This is going too far and you're turning
off people with that rhetoric. And then there
were other vegans saying, hey, but I'm doing
some rescue efforts here. Yes, I live in urban
centers or suburbia, but I use my backyard to
rescue chickens or to help in the rescue of chickens.
And how is that harmful? It's not. But my point
was, of course, This is short sighted. And if
you make it illegal for you in a suburb or a
city center to keep back your chickens, you also
make it legal for your neighbors. And just addressing
the point of welfare, as a vegan, you might treat
them well. And I'm not sure if you're able to
treat them that well because There is no veterinary
care available, and the backyard is very small.
But what about your neighbors? There's no guarantee
that they will treat the hens with care. In fact,
you know, Haiti just mentioned a case where they
were overcrowding chickens in one backyard, and
that happens a lot. You know, again, it's I feel
strongly that this is a short sighted position.
Anyone wants to react? Yes, Haiti. I think it's
I completely agree. And I think for me, the bottom
line is intent. The same with everything in life.
You know, it's about your intent. You know, when
I first got into rehoming hens, it was. back
in 2017 and I said to my partner you know we
were trying to go down there taking more control
over our food sources so we wanted some hens
for eggs that was you know we and I said can
we rescue I've heard about rehoming so I'd like
to rescue thinking you know this is this is a
good way of doing this and also you know having
some eggs that we can you know monitor the welfare
of hens, it didn't take me very long to realise
that the hens came in very poor condition. They
had emotional, psychological, physical needs.
That was the start of my journey. So if I hadn't
have done that, I wouldn't be here now trying
to educate people. I think if you made having
backyard flocks illegal and I can fully see why
there are so many instances where that would
be preferable because many people's intention
is purely I want eggs so I'm going to have hens
whether they're rescue or from breeders you know
there's so many backyard breeders which creates
a whole another realm of welfare issues and you
know yeah just a nightmare. I think making it
illegal kind of cuts out the potential for people
to actually develop a relationship and see just
how sentient these creatures are and then completely
changing their mindset. Do you see what I mean?
There's something within having a backyard flock.
I agree, it opens it up to abuse and all the
rest of it, but it's, I think it's very difficult
to make a one solution to fit all situations.
You know, my bottom line is, yeah, absolutely
the intent is to look after the hens and to give
them the best life and to help educate people
by sharing them, you know, sharing them on my
channels. and learning more as well, so that
I can advise other people and try and help other
people. Whilst we live in a world where this
is the way it is for now, we can fight towards
changing it, we can fight towards getting more
people eating less animal products and stopping
and moving into vegan and plant -based lifestyles.
It's a very transitional period, I think. You
know, I just don't see it quite as black and
white as that. Um, Liz, would you like to react?
I understand exactly what you're saying, Heidi,
because I think making that connection with a
specific animal that you would never have made
a connection with and understanding how wonderful
they are and how amazing they are is really good
thing. The problem that I have with it is that
the whole issue of backyard chickens above and
beyond rescue, because I suspect that 99 % of
the people who have backyard chickens aren't
rescuing. The whole phenomenon of saying, well,
all you can have in your backyard is a rescued
chicken has implications above and beyond for
other species. in the area and so on depending
on how healthy the birds are plus it means that
it supports this tiny little part of the rescue
supports the huge backyard chicken operations
where you rent chickens and you rent their habitat
and you send them back and the organization says
you know oh we'll save them for you over the
winter but you can't tell the difference between
one chicken and the next And you wouldn't send
your dog away for six months, but you send your
chickens away who are either your pets. So I
think there's the backyard chickens in a way,
not the rescue part, but the others in a way
enhances the disrespect for the birds because
they're just tools that sit in the backyard that
produce what the people want at the time. And
I think, so then I agree with you, it's really
hard to separate out. those people who do take
chickens from a rescue operation out of the goodness
of their heart and try and give them a really
good life for what they have left. But I think
because it expands the whole discussion about
who can have backyard chickens, where they can
be, where they get them, all that sort of stuff
makes the whole issue way more complicated. And
then on top of that we have a complication that
people who rescue backyard chickens like to eat
the eggs and consider that not a problem. It
may not be physically a problem for the bird
depending on how healthy the bird is, but it
does beg the question about what it is to be
a vegan, I think. a business model is completely
inappropriate and wrong. You know, we all know
that. So for things like the hatching projects
that we have in the UK, I don't know if you have
them in Canada as well, which is kind of a similar
thing as to what you were saying about people
kind of renting backyard flocks. That's not something
I've heard of over here, but you know, anything
that commodifies or uses an animal for a business
model, you know, is completely inappropriate.
And perhaps Perhaps maybe contacting government
to look at a registration that would only enable
people who had gone through a process of registration
for welfare to rescue backyards or to rescue
hens from slaughter. Would that minimise? the
potential for people to misuse the animals, I
don't think, or certainly all the UK government,
I don't think would care. You know, I've tried
to speak to them about hatch projects and things
like that. And these businesses that, like you
say, you know, will take the birds back or the
chicks back and the government doesn't care over
here. So I don't know. probably wouldn't be something
that they would explore to try and get rid of
the occurrence of people basically going, yes,
I would like some hens and yes, I'm going to
use the eggs because that's what they're there
for. It's so difficult. Yeah, it's a very impossible
situation. For the listeners who don't know,
what is this hatching project about? So in the
UK, it started with primary schools. These companies
set up so that children could witness the wonders
of eggs hatching and chicks being born in incubators
in the classrooms. It's gone to care homes as
well. So, you know, like care homes with dementia
patients. to give them this wonderful insight
into the hatching of and the life cycle of chicks
and then after about six weeks the chicks go
back to these businesses and of course you know
there's no control over the sexing of the chicks
so some girls some are boys I've got five here
three are boys two are girls that a lady messaged
me in a panic because the care home was going
to send them back to the company the boys are
generally cold the girls They say, you know,
they'll go back to a farm or, you know, like,
that's a good thing. There's no control over
it. There's no welfare legislation by government.
And government will not stop these hatch projects
of trying to speak to our education ministers
and they just say it's down to the school's discretion.
So essentially... the children are being shown
this, the eggs hatching, the chicks going tweet
tweet, lovely, cute, manhandled, passed round
the classrooms, then they're sent back with complete
disregard, completely disposable, you know, it's
like their library books and it's an awful, awful
thing. So, you know, I don't know if you guys
have it or not, but I hope it doesn't become
a thing over there because it's just another
way of using animals and they're, you know, just
Thank you for the explanation, Heidi. Julie,
you wanted to react and I also want to have your
take on Heidi's question that she raised. Is
exposing people to chickens in their backyards,
make them raise awareness on how we treat chickens
as a whole? Just real quick to the hatching project.
We've educated about it as well on our channels
because as Heidi explained, it's terribly misleading.
And also if you think about it, what do the children
really learn? That you put eggs away from the
mother, there's no nest needed, no mother had
needed into a plastic incubator or whatever they're
using. And the hatching, no one knows where the
chicks go after. So the message you send to children
is so misleading and just helps the industry
get away with their... methods with their industrialized
hatching and completely takes the actual lesson
that children should learn as to every egg there's
a hen and the hen takes care of the eggs and
the bond between the mother and their chicks
and the really complex social construct that
already goes on between eggs and like all this
is lost like none of this is is taught to the
children and all they learn is you know chicks
are disposable chicks can be as he said manhandled
can be put in plastic containers can be shipped
back and forth and yeah as you said there is
many of those chicks even died in the classroom
and i've heard of many teachers that were were
absolutely horrified they were overwhelmed they
didn't know what to do like they're trying to
hide it so the children don't see it because
they thought it might be traumatizing for the
children so like i don't know why teachers still
think this is a valuable addition to the classroom.
And there's so many other ways to teach a child
how an egg hatches, especially today with all
the technology that we have. We do not need to
have those little chicks suffer and die for a
child to see how they hatch. So just to that
point. And can you just repeat your question
please so I can? Yes. The question Haiti raised
around backyard chickens, so the idea is if people
are exposed to, and please correct me, Haiti,
if I'm not representing your view like I should,
but the idea is if people are exposed to backyard
chickens and real life chickens, then they are
more sensitive and receptive to messages around
defending welfare for chickens. All right. I
mean, for what I see what's happening online
with people that keep those foam stats and use
their Instagram accounts to post about it. I've
yet to see one that says I went vegan because
I started keeping chickens and I see what it
does to a chicken. I think. Culturally, we're
so indoctrinated and like using animals for food
and right now there's such a trend of this like
wholesome You know homestead grow yourself, you
know I don't know grow your own food and it's
so misleading and and it's just it doesn't really
help and as much as I agree that if if people
and children Are in contact with animals that
it usually raises their awareness and they're
more sensitive to these animals. I wonder if
that justifies a whole backyard chicken industry,
which it is really, and does it really educate
to the extent that it leads to a change and also
a different relationship to the animals and that
might change culturally as how we see where our
food comes from and how we should treat animals.
So it might work on an individual level, but
I don't know if we can say that it's a solution
that would work on a larger scale, really. That
would be my thoughts on this. Hany? Yeah, I do
realize I'm very much in a minority on my journey
and the kind of the passion with which I now
try and, you know, share that with other people.
You know, I still, I have a lot of followers
and you know there's some really heartfelt comments
and when one of my girls passes away you know
the reactions are so much more in number than
like my kind of daily posts of clan life as I
call my rescue flock clan the clan you know when
when one of the girls passes away there's there's
a real outpouring of emotion But then when I
put up a post kind of that pushes people in and
to try and make those connections and join those
dots, I do realize that there's a much lower
uptake. So I didn't. I didn't mean that it's
a justification for backyard flocks because I
do understand that I am very much in the minority
in terms of my journey with them and what it's
kind of where it's brought me with my kind of
ethical choices and you know diet and lifestyle
you know everything in my kind of connection
on an energetic level with all living beings.
It's yeah, I know the majority of people don't
follow that path as much as I would love them
to. Yeah, I definitely didn't mean it's a justification
for backyard hens. There's so many flaws in people
having backyard flocks. Yes. Thank you for adding
nuance to your point, Heidi. Liz. I just was
going to say, Heidi, I think what you do for
rescuing chickens is really wonderful. and shouldn't
at all have to apologize for doing it and that
you encourage other people to do similar things
and learn to be vegan is really a good thing.
So none of what we've said I think was met as
criticism, it was just meant as just another
maybe a bit broader point of view. I wanted to
raise this oddity that's happening out in BC.
where we have an ostrich farm with 400 ostriches,
and some of the ostriches got bird flu and died,
and then the rest of the ostriches survived,
but the Canadian Food Inspection Agency wants
to go in and cull the entire herd, or the entire
flock of ostriches, in a very similar way that
they do with a barn of 40 ,000 laying hands,
um who some of who have died of bird flu um my
my look at this is is i think is an interesting
thing for us to consider there hasn't been even
though a million chickens sorry guys um even
though a million chickens have been culled in
bc because of bird flu not one i've not heard
of one organization we've we've talked about
it but it's a big fight not one organization
that's really talked spoken out about it opposed
it exposed the way in which those birds die and
yet for the ostriches we have an incredible number
of animal rights people who are there not wanting
them to die i don't want them to die either it's
just the juxtaposition of these two birds one
who are considered to be, I guess, wonderful,
and others who are considered to be disposable.
And I think it behooves us to look at the situation
and say, you know, what's going on here? Is there
a way that we can, you know, dig into the people
who are there standing for the ostriches to actually
come over and help the chickens? Anyway, that
was just it's just an observation. That's all.
That's a great observation. Yes, I've seen lots
of buzz around this. um, ostrich situation, and
we don't see the same outreach for the same level
of outreach for what is happening to chickens.
And I want to tie it to a risk, which is, which
is the fact that having them is a vector of zoonotic
diseases. So there are zoning laws for a reason.
Um, and it is just Very recently that we've seen
municipalities and political bodies changing
those zoning laws in order to legalize backyard
chickens without any concern for public health.
Now, I find it worrying, you know, after having
gone through the, you know, coronavirus pandemic
that people have still did not learn their lesson
about the risks that viruses pose on humanity.
So what is your take on that, on how backyard
chickens are a risk to public health? Yes, Heidi.
Well, I certainly don't think backyard flocks
are immune to any risk. Again, it comes down
to the Education of the person who is caring
for the backyard flock. I don't like terms keepers
or owners for any animal. So guardian. You know,
it comes down to an understanding of biosecurity
and taking care of your hens. And again, I try
and post about this sort of stuff. You know,
my bottom line is I want to make sure that my
girls and boys are absolutely safe. from everything,
predators and biological risks, so I've educated
myself and I'll do what I need to do to protect
them and I'll share that information and hope
other people pick it up. You know bird flu in
the UK is being disastrous, I don't particularly
trust the government in their handling of the
situation, I don't particularly trust their testing
or how they deal with the situations you know
year on year the numbers are getting worse year
on year the outbreak and the housing restrictions
are getting like longer so the housing restrictions
over here where backyard flocks have to be kept
you know under cover they're getting longer and
longer but the numbers and the cases are getting
bigger and greater so what they're doing isn't
working over here For me, it's a common sense
approach that you protect your area and you make
sure you don't bring anything in. The commercial
farms where they, on their websites, you know,
you read all their blurb about how wonderful
they are and how the welfare of the hens is vitally
important and how their biosecurity measures
are paramount to their operations. And yet time
and time again, they're getting bird flu and
the entire flocks are being. cold. And as you
said, Judy, you know, the way in which they're
being cold is just horrendous. And again, I try
and share this because people haven't got a clue
what goes on. You know, these mainstream methods
of depopulating the flocks are just horrendous.
And people this is kept from the public, you
know, because they just don't want them to understand
the the real you know, effect of this on the
animals. I don't think the government over here
has got a handle on bird flu or how to properly
take care of it and to minimize the impact. They
just want to minimize the impact on the industry
and their profit margins. I did not realize how
dire the situation was in the UK. Let me add
just one small detail before passing the mic
to Liz. When I recorded that episode two weeks
ago, I did some undercover work. I called the
biggest veterinary hospital in Quebec, the province
where I live, and pretended I had backyard chickens
and a hen with egg binding. And when I asked
the operator you know, are there any veterinarians
available to treat my chickens? She said something
peculiar. She said there are some veterinarians
who specialize in chickens, but it's only for
commercial chickens. And because of biosecurity
risk, they will not treat backyard chickens.
I thought that was a fascinating, interesting
detail. So Liz, it's really hard to tell how
much backyard chickens contribute to avian influenza
in Canada. And there's I think there's a good,
good reason for that. They suggest that backyard
chickens are a very minor part. of the contribution
to avian influenza, but I suspect it's much bigger
because once people know that if you call the
CFIA in to look at your hens and one of the birds
is sick and they're all going to die, they're
going to kill all the birds, that's the mantra
that they do, that a lot of people just won't
report it. and won't have the CFIA come in. And
as you point out, a lot of veterinarians, even
if they know about chickens, won't handle them
because they're afraid that they're going to
pass the avian influenza on from a backyard chicken
to a big commercial operation and so on. What
they found in BC, interestingly, with the CFIA
exterminating barns of chickens, that they had
so many barns that they had to contract it out.
And the contractors were passing the avian influenza
on from the barn that they had depopulated to
a barn that was a suspect. And so, you know,
so I think, you know, we don't understand the
viruses enough to understand what kind of, you
know, what kind of, how it affects people and
how it affects animals. And certainly, Haiti,
it sounds like you do a really good job at protecting
your chickens from all of that. But most of these
birds just sit out in a backyard somewhere. And
birds are in and out and all sorts of animals
that carry avian influenza. And so it makes it
harder to control the disease once you have,
say, 150 backyard chickens in one city and 250
in another city. How does the CFIA even begin
to decide how to control avian influenza with
that kind of distribution? If you have all birds
in one barn, that's pretty easy. You can go in
and do what you have to do, which is horrendous,
as Adi said. But it means that it's even harder
to control avian influenza. This is frightening
and You said less a few hundreds here and there
but actually, you know, there are and you know
that there are millions of backyard chickens
now Across one given country. I think in the
u .s. It's eight millions backyard chickens So
yeah, it's a big operation Haiti. Oh You you
are muted I can do hens, I'm useless at technology.
In the UK last year the government made it mandatory
to register your hens for back, so any backyard
flock you had to register your hens whether you
had one hen or 50 hens. Prior to last year it
was only if you had in excess of 49 hens you
had to register your flock with dephra and the
APHA. So last year they made it mandatory that
everybody had to register their backyard flocks
and there was a lot of, you know, conspiracies
as to why and what have you. And whilst, as I
said, I don't particularly trust the handling
of these situations, you know, I have done it
because it's a legal requirement, but it makes
me even more resolute to ensure that my biosecurity
is, you know, it is absolutely spot on. What
was I going to say? So looking back at the statistics
on the APHA website about every occurrence of
bird flu, I went through all of them last year
and there was not one backyard flock where bird
flu had been discovered and they put in these
surveillance zones and the death threat agents
were going out and doing spot checks and I know
a number of people had, you know, death threat
agents turn up to check their flocks and to do
like random testing and what have you to try
and implement a safeguard for the egg industry
by looking at backyard flocks but every single
reported case was from commercial premises you
know that doesn't mean that I agree with Liz
what you said you know of course you know if
somebody's hen starts displaying symptoms of
avian flu and the risk is that the rest of your
hens are going to be culled you're not going
to want to to put your hand up and go my hens
ill you know I completely get that that will
you know happen and those people who haven't
registered their flocks they're going to fall
outside of this kind of control mechanism that
the UK government's put in place. But it just
struck me that the statistics that have been
put on the website is that all the occurrences
are from big commercial premises. And of course,
the outfall of that is millions and millions
of birds being culled. And what's very scary,
Liz, what you said, which does make complete
sense, is that the people who are going in and
doing the depopulations or they're then transmitting
it to other establishments. I mean, for goodness
sake, that's really worrying. I want to correct
myself. I said 8 million chickens in the US,
but it was actually 85 million. I did not find
a number for Canada. It seems there's no estimate
for Canada. Liz? In almost every industrial country
that I've looked at, we are very, very casual
about viruses that are evolving, that don't affect
us at the moment, but are evolving into something
that could affect us. And even though they depopulate
barns and do all sorts of different things, biosecurity
here is not mandatory. Biosecurity is, you know,
you hope to God the farmer. you know, takes his
or her responsibility in raising these animals
to not have avian influenza, but people go in
and out, you know, all kinds of contractors come
and go from the barns, and there is very little
surveillance as to whether those biosecurity
measures are actually being followed. And so
you have avian influenza, which has now infected
cows. and has infected human beings who were
milking cows and taking care of cows. It hasn't
yet spread from person to person, which is then
pandemic style kind of thing, but we're not that
far away from having it become like a COVID and
the animals are gonna pay the price and we're
certainly gonna pay the price. So I mean, I hope
that we all sort of look at this issue and say,
you know, we, I mean, obviously what we need
to do is change how we handle animals or not
handle animals at all. But certainly these big
aggregate farms where there's a hundred thousand
chickens in them or 200 ,000, you know, it's
just sitting waiting to become a Navy and influenza
hotspot. So. Thank you for that. Yeah, this is
all very scary. I want to ask you to maybe give
your opinion on how the poultry industry thinks
about backyard chickens. Do they feel like backyard
chickens are a threat to them? Of course, my
opinion is that backyard chickens promote the
consumption of chickens. stimulate the taste
of people for eggs and just, you know, the poultry
industry can attach themselves to this backyard
chicken business to just, you know, propagate
the idea that it is humane to keep chickens and
exploit them. And of course, there is the fact
that this has become a very lucrative industry.
I've seen one stat where it said that the backyard
chicken industry would climb to one billion,
one point something billion dollars in 2035.
So that is money added to their profit margins.
So yeah. How is the poultry industry, you know,
big poultry thinking about backyard chickens
heavy? I can't imagine they feel it's a threat
at all given the numbers, you know, in comparison.
And of course, the the egg industry is whole
egg and liquid egg and egg that goes into ingredient
products. You know, you'll know the numbers.
Certainly in the UK, I really can't imagine they
will give two hoots really about the backyard
for people who want to maybe sort of have their
own eggs. I don't think they're... Sadly, if
they notice any downturn in their sales, they'll
just start adjusting, you know, the yield profit.
ratio where they get more out of the hens and
they put less in. Ultimately, yes, the hens will
end up suffering. But yeah, in answer to your
question, I really can't imagine that they're
massively bothered. Thank you, Julie. Yeah, I
agree. I haven't read any articles coming from
the poultry industry that would indicate that
in any way feel threatened or see it as a potential
risk in the future. That's clear, because as
Heidi said, the numbers are just too low. So
even if everyone who has the space would adopt
backyard chicken, it would not replace the egg
industry. And I think it helps the egg industry
because it normalizes egg consumption. It normalizes
seeing animals as a provider of food, as we mentioned
before. And on top of that, I think people that
have backyard chickens, I mean, I don't think
they avoid other eggs from other sources, so
they would still buy products where eggs are
ingredients, or they go to a restaurant and have
eggs there, or say they have a big bake coming
up and their hands just didn't lay enough eggs
the last day, so they still might go to the supermarket
and buy a dozen. So I don't think someone who
keeps beggar chickens completely replaces industrial
eggs in that sense, so I think that doesn't...
really minimize the demand that much. And what
else? Yeah, and I think, as we said, backyard
chicken as an industry is part of the poultry
industry, like hatcheries benefit from selling
chicks, and that's part of the industry, right?
The parent flocks no one talks about, which are
the ones that produce the fertilized eggs that
hatch into the chickens that people buy, those
are big industry, no one talks about it or have
no welfare oversight. And they would still exist
with backyard chickens and that's still part
of the industry, part of the profit, part of
the suffering. So I don't think there's any point
in the future where backyard chicken are a threat
to the big industrialized egg industry. Thank
you Julie. Liz? Just briefly, just in watching
what little bit of television I do, I've noticed
that the industry, so the big chicken operators,
are talking about chickens as though they were
backyard chickens, that they love their birds,
that they, each and every 40 ,000 birds, they
just love them and they're all well cared for
and the best possible life for these birds and
all that sort of stuff. So I think, I think Julie
and Hades, right, they're sort of a crossover
of the industry picking up on that aspect of
people wanting backyard chickens and wanting
eggs in a different way to promote their industry
in a similar way. Just kind of interesting. Then,
you know, if we agree that backyard chickens
are helping big poultry, that they are a risk,
a public health risk, that their welfare is not
guaranteed. You know, then as a movement, we
should push for the criminalization of backyard
chickens. I know that, Liz, you have experience
in doing that. What kind of pushback did you
receive? Well, we've been to a number of municipalities
to see if we can get them to ban it. And the
motivating factor was avian influenza because
some of the barns around the areas where we went
to had avian influenza and the municipalities
were worried about all of that. So they've put
up, well they haven't banned it, they've put
a hold on it. So I wouldn't call it criminalization
because I think that elevates the issue to where
it's difficult to have a conversation. So we've
promoted a ban in municipalities on backyard
chickens and The first time we did it, the pushback
from council was very interesting. They all sat
around and during the discussion and, you know,
sort of made fun of the whole debate. And of
course, backyard chickens were allowed. And then,
you know, avian influenza raised its ugly head
and And so we were able to show by a map how
close it was and all that sort of foolishness
that council went through the first time they
backed away from and actually decided to put
it on hold. And they've extended that hold for
the next few years as well. So we haven't got
it banned, but the pushback in the community
was pretty... They were good municipal citizens
in the sense that they got involved in municipal
politics, arguing that they should have backyard
chickens. So there was quite a bit of pushback
on it, but that pushback this time didn't go
anywhere. So I think, as Haiti said, it's very
attractive to people and it's a hard thing to
say. You know, you shouldn't be doing it in certainly
in an urban environment where you can't, you
know, have biosecurity. Like it's just not possible.
People wander in and out of people's yards. You
know, it's all sorts of stuff. So anyway, yeah,
lots of pushback. Which I don't understand because,
you know, they are a source of noise. They can
emit all sorts of... bad odors. So as neighbors,
you know, you would, I feel you would support
the idea of not having backyard chickens or living
in a city where you cannot have backyard chickens.
Then in that case, what do we say to the vegans
who have those rescue chickens in their backyard
who care for them? I don't expect a a clear answer,
but what do we say to them to convince them to
turn their resources and energy to banning backyard
chickens instead of keeping them in their backyard
as a rescue operation? Maybe I'll start. I think
Julie is exactly right about the issue of Where
are these chicks coming from when you get chickens
in the backyard? Where are they coming from?
If it's a rescue they are still coming from operations
where you have females that produce fertile eggs
so that you can So that the laying the sorry
the broiler industry has enough chicks to continue
on doing what they're doing and so Whether they
like it or not. They're part of that system The
minute you get involved in this, they're part
of that system. And so it's really important,
I think, to let people know that that is the
case and that you shouldn't be part of it. You
can rescue the chickens. That's totally okay,
I guess. I mean, I think there's complications
to that. But as we've talked about with backyard
chickens, but if you're able to give support
to those chickens and take care of them well,
then I think it's okay, but I think all the other
stuff is just feeds into part of the industry
and we shouldn't be doing that as vegans. Heidi?
Yeah, I agree. With all of those points, obviously
I'm uncomfortable about stopping, you know, the
rescue, you know, whilst we live in the climate
that we do where, you know, any soul that can
be saved is the soul that's saved. But, you know,
again, I know my MO is, you know, far more extreme
than a lot of other people. But I think in terms
of putting energies into banning it I think energy
needs to really go into like education and helping
people understand the broader picture like Judy
says about like where does it start you know
the eggs don't just pop into the ether there
they are you know there's there's all of the
the ethical issues behind the the male chicks
being killed the the breeding barns, you know,
and you will know that I've posted about this
on occasion to try and get people to like, you
know, literally ask the question which came first,
the chicken or the egg, you know, where do the
eggs come from and all the ethical issues involved
in the egg industry before the hen even gets
into the, whichever welfare system they get put
into, you know, there's a massive ethical issue
prior to that. and helping to educate people
that actually, when they make the decision to
pick up an egg from a supermarket or a piece
of cake that contains egg, or to buy hens to
have in their backyard so that they can have
their own eggs, when they make those decisions,
what consequences are there for that decision
in its entirety? And it's getting people to understand
and see the bigger picture, including things
like avian influenza and the backlash of you
know, being involved in a potential modality
of spreading the virus, you know, from going
from your flock to, you know, I've got different
wellies that I wear up there, different boots,
I've got foot dips and all the rest of it, so
it's completely enclosed, I don't bring anything
in, I don't take anything out, but again, you
know, that's a higher level of responsibility
that everybody should have in order to safeguard
having some hens in your back garden. But yeah,
I think to put our energy into really educating
people so that they can make better decisions
and to also realize when they do make a decision
just exactly who is suffering as a consequence
of that decision. Yeah, it's a sensitive issue.
Thank you, Hayley. Julie, you're an expert in
educating people. Well, we're trying anyway,
but yeah, it's a different thing to tell people
not to have backyard chickens than to say, you
know, battery cages are wrong. Obviously, the
letter is accepted as a wrong and usually gets
the reactions that we all hope for and people
are appalled and want to make change. But to
the point of vegans and backyard chickens and
their energy, obviously, in terms of rescue and
chicken, which always help in terms of education
stories like that's why Haiti is so important
to the movement and her way of telling and talking
about the agonist student through her hands to
her their rescue stories through their you know
whatever stories they go through whatever suffering
they go through it helps so much to have people
have a name a hand with a name is already like
so revolutionary considering that there are commercial
flocks of thousands and millions that Haiti has
a hand and her name was Fleur and this video
is still ongoing and years after she's passed
and that really gets people's attention that
really touches their hearts and that really is
a place where you then can start saying hey this
is where she came from, this is why she looked
the way she looked, that's why she suffered.
So for that, it's in terms of education, having
those hands and helping telling their stories
is a really good way to connect to people. But
again, it's always a slippery slope to use that
as a justification for back, you know, back your
sickness are okay, because it opens up to everyone,
you can't just select, are you vegan, Daniel?
Are you non vegan? You know, like it's I don't
know we can get anywhere but when it comes to
using our energy I think as a vegan if you're
someone who wants to Speak about it and speak
up for the animals definitely put the energy
into educating in terms of our relationship with
the animals Did you normalization of eating acts
as a product of you know labor from the hand?
That's something we should put the energy in
Exposing just the grand scheme of the egg industry
as you guys all mentioned before it's all part
of the same system right expose that and just
yeah just don't eat eggs and you know don't because
you help normalizing it you help you know that
cultural aspect it's totally fine there's no
harm to it it's just an egg it's what they do
anyway i'm completely ignoring the fact that
the modern hen is a product of humans like the
hand would not survive in the wild they would
all die they need us they're created by us for
us and used by us and that's something we should
definitely highlight that this is not an animal
that would roam free otherwise and we're just
you know decided to take it into our homes and
take the eggs that would come anyway they don't
exist in the wild they don't they wouldn't survive
in the wild um you know if you think it's healthy
and normal and natural i don't think The eggs
of chickens are that normal, you know compared
to picking a mushroom in the forest, which is
where it grows There was no human intervention.
They're just there that you can pick but the
hen the way they are today is a product of human
intervention and like massive manipulation of
the genome So, yeah focus on that and put the
energy into educating and That would be my point
of view in terms of storytelling and educating
the public. Thank you, Julie. And careful what
kind of mushrooms you're picking in the forest.
Heidi? Yeah, as an example, in support of what
Julie just said, I've got one little girl in
the vets at the moment, Nut, who I've taken in
for some x -rays and ultrasounds. and then a
hormone implant because she's so just naturally
inflamed in her abdomen. And I was saying to
the vets today, you know, people think that hen
laying an egg is such a benign process. It's
natural. It's massively inflammatory to a hen
and she is very obviously inflamed in her abdomen.
So I want to do, it's like a little... study
so we're taking some x -rays and ultrasounds
and then we're going to implant to bring her
off lay so that her body can rest and then we'll
repeat x -ray and ultrasound and then I can kind
of show the difference because when I say to
people you know I could tell her I can tell a
hen that's in lay obviously visually but if I
had my eyes shot I could tell which hens in lay
against the hen that is in lay purely by the
feel of their abdomen because it's so inflamed.
you know it's not it's not a natural process
it's not a it's not a innocent benign function
of nature you know as judy said um you know and
trying to get people to understand this you know
is part of the battle yes looking forward to
the results and uh yeah visually it will appear
well i think in on social media you know those
x -rays Yeah, there's so much to address with
this issue. It's just incredible. We did not
even touch on insects, you know, insect farming,
which is a new lucrative business, and how now
there are insect treats in every pet shop around
the world, because of the backyard chicken industry.
So yeah. There is so much to address. So it seems
like the backyard chicken industry and the poultry
industry is also feeding into other forms of
animal exploitation. Did you want to add some
final words before I stop the recording, Heidi?
Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a very interesting
point you just raised, you know, extrapolating
out from one small thing that killed hens, you
know, it's very innocent. It's not a problem.
But like say it kind of opens up different avenues
for animals being abused and the normalizing
of consumption. So I think, yeah. to keep promoting
that as a backdrop behind what these hens can
teach us. My goal is to try and steer people
away from that connection. It's a small thing.
I don't personally... use the word chicken, because
it's so connected with food. So I always call
them hens. It's a really small thing. But you
know, when I hear people in restaurants going,
Oh, I'll have a chicken this and a chicken that
is just like, you know, it makes me just so even
something as innocent as that using the word
hen, I just try and take people away from that
connection, because it's so programmed into us,
we've all been programmed, you know, we didn't
pop out of the womb vegan, we've all kind of,
you know, transitioned through you know through
our connections and what have you so I used to
get very angry about people's choices now I just
think well okay I was making bad choices you
know a few years ago so I want to try and just
gently educate people and show them that actually
they can move away from from that programming
that we've all been just programmed into thinking
it's completely normal so I think any any discussions
that come that open this topic up and get people
to start thinking is really positive. Thank you
for that insight, Heidi. Liz, you wanted to add
something? I was just going to make an appeal
to the vegans who are wrestling with this issue
and to say, please, please do a deep dive into
the entire of the chicken industry, because although
you only have a few birds, they've all been part
of that bigger industry. which is about utilization,
maximizing profit, minimizing protections for
the birds, et cetera. And I think if you really
take a good, hard look at what chickens go through
and what the industry is like, you might consider
not eating the eggs. Thank you, Liz. Shuri? Maybe,
so there's two things. If there's vegans that
have chickens, I wish for them to share like
Haiti does what they observe the chicken go through
because they see it firsthand. Maybe also speak
up about the complexity of keeping chickens.
It's not just people still believe you feed them
with your kitchen scraps and they just wonder
about your yard and you take the eggs and all
is good. Like we all know it's like we here all
know it's a much more complex. Yeah, the social.
lives of the chicken together, like the illnesses
they go through, as you mentioned, access to
that. So I just would wish for, if vegans keep
hands for whatever reason, the rescued and eaten
or not eaten eggs, please speak up about. all
aspects of chicken keeping that you experience
firsthand. Don't just share the nice stories,
share everything. Obviously, to your discretion,
like how much you share, some people are really
visual, they literally take pictures of everything
that comes out of certain chickens that are sick.
But yeah, to your discretion, use that as educating
people because you have firsthand experience
and firsthand footage. And then overall, I would
also advice not to go out now and hate on people
that have backyard chickens. We should always
try to find a point of connection where we already
agree because people that do keep backyard chickens
because they want to do better by the hand are
already at a place where they recognize that
there's something wrong with the ag industry.
They already recognize that we should be kinder
to animals and always use that as a connection
point and make sure that we speak up and kind
of support that they make a change and they look
behind the curtains of the big ag so always try
to find a connection point and not go in there
negatively and speaking against it and try to
through the connection find a way to nudge those
people maybe it's just a tiny bit further as
Haley is trying to do i know it's really hard
but um I mean, just try your best to be empathetic
and nice about it and help people to maybe just
asking questions to make people start thinking
about certain aspects differently and maybe even
have them or just asking, you know, has any of
your hands ever been sick? What is your experience?
Just like kind of nudge them into a direction
where they open up more about what they experience
keeping those chickens and why they got to the
oh you know how did they get to this place in
the um in the first place what was their motivation
and can we go a step further um that would be
my advice for for vegans out if you want to speak
up um for for the hands i wholeheartedly agree
wonderful so thank you so much for for all of
the good work you're doing and for speaking up
about this issue. And thank you for having taken
the time to appear on the podcast. Julie, Liz,
you are returning guests many times for you,
Liz. Hey, Dee, this is your first time on The
Vegan Report, but hopefully not your last time.
So thank you so much for your time and for having
answered my questions. Thank you everyone for
listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.