WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.339 Hello everyone, I have a big announcement to 00:00:03.339 --> 00:00:06.559 make. In addition to the usual Tuesday episodes, 00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:10.439 I invite you to tune in every Wednesday for a 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:13.699 special episode about the science of activism. 00:00:14.500 --> 00:00:17.399 Every Wednesday, I will give the microphone to 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:20.940 world -class researchers who study the effectiveness 00:00:20.940 --> 00:00:25.460 of animal advocacy and vegan activism. Learn 00:00:25.460 --> 00:00:29.570 from them what are the best and worst ways to 00:00:29.570 --> 00:00:33.289 make a positive difference in the world. Since 00:00:33.289 --> 00:00:37.289 starting this podcast, I have come across strong, 00:00:37.409 --> 00:00:41.630 some would even say stubborn opinions on what 00:00:41.630 --> 00:00:45.250 the way forward looks like. I even developed 00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:50.380 my own strong opinions. But this is our reality 00:00:50.380 --> 00:00:55.020 check, a way to verify if our beliefs are backed 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:59.460 by evidence and check if our perception of reality 00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:03.439 is not distorted. So connect every Wednesday 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.040 and become the most informed and effective activist 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:14.650 out there. Thank you. Today, I'm going to talk 00:01:14.650 --> 00:01:17.489 to you about the behavioral science of our food 00:01:17.489 --> 00:01:20.709 service institutions, how we can shape it to 00:01:20.709 --> 00:01:23.829 make people choose less meat, and why an all 00:01:23.829 --> 00:01:26.230 -vegan restaurant might not be as effective as 00:01:26.230 --> 00:01:30.290 you think. My name is Bjorn Olufsen. I'm a researcher 00:01:30.290 --> 00:01:32.469 and writer who is obsessed with the questions 00:01:32.469 --> 00:01:34.829 relating to meat production, animal welfare, 00:01:35.269 --> 00:01:37.870 and veganism worldwide. If you want to catch 00:01:37.870 --> 00:01:39.989 up with my work, you can follow my sub -step, 00:01:40.349 --> 00:01:44.159 more than meets the eye. meats spelled M -E -A 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:48.260 -T -S. You can also follow me on LinkedIn, bjornioonolefsen, 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.439 or go to my personal website bjornioon .com. 00:01:51.939 --> 00:01:54.000 If you're curious about more of the science of 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.560 activism, you can share this episode of The Vegan 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:58.799 Report with your friends or whoever would benefit 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.060 from it, and we encourage you to take a listen 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:03.120 every single Wednesday to learn more about this 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:07.439 important research. So, last month, I took a 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.560 plane to the Avisun. That's the Animal and Vegan 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.379 Advocacy Summit in Nairobi, Kenya. The summit 00:02:13.379 --> 00:02:15.979 was great. That's not the important part. But 00:02:15.979 --> 00:02:18.539 I had to take an extremely long plane ride from 00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:21.539 Barcelona to Nairobi. It was over eight hours 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:25.819 in length. And if any of you are vegan, you know 00:02:25.819 --> 00:02:28.139 that it can be quite difficult to eat vegan food 00:02:28.139 --> 00:02:31.659 on an airplane. So I had to do this very annoying 00:02:31.659 --> 00:02:33.599 thing that I'm sure most of you can relate to. 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:37.199 I had to buy my ticket. Then afterwards I had 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.259 to log into the airline manage my booking section 00:02:40.259 --> 00:02:43.039 and then scroll and scroll and scroll and find 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:45.240 this tiny little option where I could change 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:49.219 my my meal service from a default meal to a vegan 00:02:49.219 --> 00:02:52.460 option You know at the end of the day it took 00:02:52.460 --> 00:02:55.500 me 15 minutes But it was kind of annoying tasks 00:02:55.500 --> 00:02:57.520 that I didn't really want to go through and it 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:01.560 just is a bit a bit Annoying every single time 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.400 I have to fly And then if I forget to do it, 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:06.900 which does happen once in a while, I'm sitting 00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:08.719 on the airplane and I'm trying to talk to the 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:10.759 flight attendant, trying to see if there's any 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:13.659 vegan food they have in the back. One time, I 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:16.719 remember a few years ago, I had forgotten to 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.060 do this and they had brought me every single 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:20.900 piece of fruit they could find in Brooklyn, because 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:23.300 that was the only vegan food they had. So I was 00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:24.919 sitting there with my tray table and they had 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:27.919 like four apples and two bananas and like a pear 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.060 in front of me. You know, better than nothing. 00:03:31.389 --> 00:03:33.689 but not exactly the vegan meal I had been hoping 00:03:33.689 --> 00:03:38.810 for. So why am I telling you this? This is because 00:03:38.810 --> 00:03:43.509 airplanes operate on a meat default. If you do 00:03:43.509 --> 00:03:46.310 nothing, they will serve you a meat option by 00:03:46.310 --> 00:03:49.050 default. Occasionally there's a vegetarian default, 00:03:49.110 --> 00:03:52.629 but basically no airline in the world has a vegan 00:03:52.629 --> 00:03:55.750 default. If they were to have a vegan default, 00:03:56.150 --> 00:03:58.389 all the food they would serve would be vegan. 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:03.300 But if you wanted to eat meat, or eggs, or dairy, 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.340 you would have to log in to the airline's website, 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:08.819 manage your booking, figure out how to add the 00:04:08.819 --> 00:04:11.719 meat and dairy to your meal. But the thing is, 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:13.860 most people wouldn't go through that trouble, 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.779 because it is kind of an annoying task. This 00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:21.300 is a central concept called a food default. We 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:23.720 can have a plant -based default, a meat default, 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:26.920 or various versions of it. How are we presenting 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:30.800 these types of food to consumers? Right now, 00:04:31.139 --> 00:04:33.879 in the vast majority of the world, the food is 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.720 presented with meat and dairy as the default 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.420 options. I, as a vegan, and I'm sure many people 00:04:40.420 --> 00:04:43.259 listening to this, have to put an extra effort 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:47.019 if we want to eat vegan food. This is true in 00:04:47.019 --> 00:04:50.060 cafeterias, in restaurants, in bars, on airplanes, 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:53.759 in corporate offices, workplaces, catering events, 00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:55.579 anything you can really think of where you eat 00:04:55.579 --> 00:05:00.529 food. We have to put an extra effort. But what 00:05:00.529 --> 00:05:04.029 if we could flip it? Now let's talk about behavioral 00:05:04.029 --> 00:05:06.949 science of food, specifically something called 00:05:06.949 --> 00:05:10.550 a nudge. A nudge you've probably heard of. It 00:05:10.550 --> 00:05:14.329 was first popularized in a 2008 book called Nudge 00:05:14.329 --> 00:05:18.490 by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein. Right now 00:05:18.490 --> 00:05:20.990 I'm working with the Better Food Foundation as 00:05:20.990 --> 00:05:23.790 a research specialist on a series of projects 00:05:23.790 --> 00:05:28.089 all related to food -based nudges. The idea is 00:05:28.089 --> 00:05:30.779 simple. What if we could change the way our food 00:05:30.779 --> 00:05:33.379 systems are presenting the options to the consumers 00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:36.699 without actually removing the choice at all? 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:40.779 That's what a nudge is. A change of the options, 00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:43.879 not the removal of them. If I were to walk into 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.600 a vegan restaurant, none of the food would be 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:50.240 nudged to me because there is no option to eat 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:53.180 meat or dairy if I wanted to. I don't want to. 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.319 I'm vegan. But let's say I've brought some of 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.420 my friends' family to a vegan restaurant. they 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:59.360 would essentially have to eat vegan as long as 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.860 they stay within the restaurant premises. But 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:07.319 a nudge is a way to position the option in such 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:09.660 a way that people are more likely to choose it. 00:06:10.180 --> 00:06:12.720 There's a million different types of nudges. 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:14.379 And we're going to talk about several of them 00:06:14.379 --> 00:06:17.699 today. First, I want to talk about plant -based 00:06:17.699 --> 00:06:22.560 defaults. In a plant -based default, a vegan 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:26.740 option is presented to the consumer as the default 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:30.040 option. So let's say you're signing up for a 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.100 conference. You'd have to log in and put extra 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:35.560 effort if you wanted the meat option. The same 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:40.180 example with an airline. In a cafeteria, maybe 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:43.279 all of the vegan food is visible to the consumer, 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.100 and they'd have to ask a staff member to go to 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:49.399 the back and bring the meat option out, which 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:51.199 might take a little extra time, maybe five or 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.040 six minutes. In a restaurant, All the items on 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.079 the menu could be vegan, but the consumer would 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:00.959 have to add meat or dairy options for an extra 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:05.680 cost. For example, think of a vegan burrito that 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:08.680 was given to the consumer, but they could add 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:14.600 chicken for an extra $3 or 3 euros. In a vegan 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.920 default, a plant -based default, we can see huge 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:22.689 changes. So last year, I did a review. a literature 00:07:22.689 --> 00:07:25.970 review of all the studies on plant -based defaults. 00:07:26.189 --> 00:07:28.829 And I found that when we had a meat default, 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:32.709 the vegan option was chosen on average 16 .4 00:07:32.709 --> 00:07:36.649 % of the time. But in a plant -based default, 00:07:37.649 --> 00:07:41.930 the vegan option was chosen 73 .8 % of the time. 00:07:42.650 --> 00:07:45.949 That's pretty amazing, right? That's over a three 00:07:45.949 --> 00:07:49.089 -fold increase. We're going from a less than 00:07:49.089 --> 00:07:52.209 20 % vegan to around three and four options being 00:07:52.209 --> 00:07:55.569 entirely vegan. And here's what's the crucial 00:07:55.569 --> 00:08:00.389 thing. The meat eaters who were able to eat meat 00:08:00.389 --> 00:08:03.209 aren't going to complain. That's the problem 00:08:03.209 --> 00:08:06.279 that we've seen with many other... restaurants 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:10.480 or Meatless Mondays or Veganuary or vegan restaurants 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.519 or something where the choice is essentially 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:17.319 removed from the consumer. Sometimes, not all 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:20.360 the time, but sometimes there's backlash. For 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.500 whatever reason, a lot of people seem to really 00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:24.860 really like their meat and when they feel as 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:27.620 if it's been taken away from them, they might 00:08:27.620 --> 00:08:30.199 react in a negative way or stop supporting that 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:33.200 business or something like that. which has caused 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.500 a lot of those initiatives to fail. Not all, 00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:38.440 but enough that we should be concerned about 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:42.080 it. The benefit of a plant -based default is 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:45.460 that everybody is happy. Most people are eating 00:08:45.460 --> 00:08:48.440 vegan. The people who really, really crave the 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:50.419 meat are still going to eat the meat, but they're 00:08:50.419 --> 00:08:53.159 not likely to complain about it. This is the 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:55.940 central advantage, in my opinion. We're able 00:08:55.940 --> 00:08:59.240 to work with food service institutions that might 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:01.799 not be willing to work with us otherwise because 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.960 we are giving them something that's not going 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.340 to give them backlash or harm the consumer in 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:10.100 any way. There is one thing we should keep in 00:09:10.100 --> 00:09:13.120 mind with plant -based defaults is that maybe 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:15.559 the people who eat vegan might eat more meat 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:19.159 later in the day. We only found one study that 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:21.399 measured this and they did find that they're 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.779 likely to eat more meat later in the day but 00:09:23.779 --> 00:09:25.720 that that amount was less than the amount of 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:29.389 meat saved by the default. So It still works, 00:09:29.750 --> 00:09:32.149 but it is a cause for concern that we have to 00:09:32.149 --> 00:09:34.230 make sure that the food is filling enough that 00:09:34.230 --> 00:09:36.149 people are less likely to eat it later in the 00:09:36.149 --> 00:09:39.590 day. On the flip side, there's another type of 00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:41.590 behavior change that might be very positive, 00:09:42.129 --> 00:09:45.309 which is by having people eat vegan, perhaps 00:09:45.309 --> 00:09:47.730 even accidentally, for a long period of time, 00:09:48.070 --> 00:09:50.230 they might be more willing to go vegan later 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:52.649 in their life or to reduce their meat consumption. 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.159 I haven't been able to find a study that relates 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:59.799 to this question specifically, but I think it's 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:02.960 really worth considering. In my opinion, I think 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.059 it's likely that when a plant -based default 00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:08.639 has some sort of messaging or narrative or framing 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.799 campaign behind it to explain to people exactly 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:13.899 why this is valuable and why it's meaningful, 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:16.639 it might be more likely to change people's minds 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.200 about veganism as a diet and as an identity. 00:10:19.820 --> 00:10:22.250 For example, in New York City hospitals, They 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:24.350 gave people a plant -based default, and then 00:10:24.350 --> 00:10:26.490 after they left, they gave them an informational 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:28.750 packet about why this was important and why this 00:10:28.750 --> 00:10:32.149 was implemented. I think this is very exciting. 00:10:32.409 --> 00:10:34.769 If we can pair plant -based defaults with other 00:10:34.769 --> 00:10:37.610 forms of media and messaging campaigns, we might 00:10:37.610 --> 00:10:40.570 be able to use it as a way to shift social norms, 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:44.509 which is crucial for making the world a more 00:10:44.509 --> 00:10:47.389 vegan -friendly and less hostile to animals. 00:10:48.570 --> 00:10:52.149 So... A plant -based default is super exciting. 00:10:52.590 --> 00:10:54.769 And I think it's most exciting in universities 00:10:54.769 --> 00:10:56.570 because students are going to be more willing 00:10:56.570 --> 00:10:59.490 to be flexible, to experiment, and hopefully 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:02.250 to consider the climate and animal welfare implications 00:11:02.250 --> 00:11:05.070 of what they're eating. So that's why I'm working 00:11:05.070 --> 00:11:07.710 with the Better Food Foundation. The Better Food 00:11:07.710 --> 00:11:09.870 Foundation is working with university students 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:13.169 to implement these plant -based defaults across 00:11:13.169 --> 00:11:15.070 the United States and other places in the world. 00:11:15.470 --> 00:11:18.379 I'm excited to see this spread. I think not much 00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:20.440 effort has been put into this as an intervention 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.480 historically, but with a lot more time and resources 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.980 behind it, I do think that this could take off 00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:29.059 because of the benefits I mentioned earlier. 00:11:29.379 --> 00:11:31.080 There's not going to be a backlash. We're going 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:34.179 to see huge changes in consumption, and it might 00:11:34.179 --> 00:11:38.519 even change social norms. But defaults aren't 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:42.259 the only way to nudge consumers into choosing 00:11:42.259 --> 00:11:47.750 vegan. So let's talk about menus. On a menu, 00:11:48.610 --> 00:11:51.429 there are a million different ways we can reshape 00:11:51.429 --> 00:11:54.769 them to be more inclusive of the vegan food. 00:11:55.210 --> 00:11:57.149 And the first thing we need to keep in mind is 00:11:57.149 --> 00:11:59.049 that we probably shouldn't even be using the 00:11:59.049 --> 00:12:02.169 word vegan at all. I think a lot of people are 00:12:02.169 --> 00:12:04.509 hip to this nowadays, right? Plant -based is 00:12:04.509 --> 00:12:06.730 the new term. We should all be using plant -based. 00:12:07.549 --> 00:12:10.190 But plant -based is not that much better than 00:12:10.190 --> 00:12:14.429 vegan. It's better, but not that much. Instead, 00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:17.269 we need to be using terms that appeal to things 00:12:17.269 --> 00:12:20.950 like health, the origin of the food, the taste 00:12:20.950 --> 00:12:24.309 of the food. So instead of saying vegan burger, 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:29.190 we should use something like umami burger or 00:12:29.190 --> 00:12:37.070 spicy chipotle burger or Mediterranean bowl as 00:12:37.070 --> 00:12:40.009 opposed to a vegan bowl or something like that. 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.320 We're basically trying to give all these other 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.080 indicators about what's going to be in the food. 00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:47.720 Because the word vegan and the word plant -based, 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:50.740 like it or not, often make people think about 00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:54.399 what the food doesn't have. It doesn't have meat. 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:56.980 It doesn't have dairy. And for many people, they 00:12:56.980 --> 00:13:00.980 assume that means it doesn't have flavor. I mean, 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.220 obviously, I disagree with that. I think vegan 00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:05.460 food is great, but not everybody thinks that 00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.080 way, right? So instead, we need to be framing 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.059 these foods in a way that is exciting and appealing 00:13:11.059 --> 00:13:13.899 and engaging for people, right? What would you 00:13:13.899 --> 00:13:19.360 rather eat? A vegan burger or a spicy umami burger 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:21.799 with sauteed mushrooms on top? Something like 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:23.919 that. Doesn't that sound better? Unless you don't 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:25.840 like mushrooms. In that case, I don't know what 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.840 to tell you. Mushrooms are great. So if we're 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.639 going to be reshaping the titles of the food 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:36.529 options, We can also be reshaping the way that 00:13:36.529 --> 00:13:39.750 the menu itself is structured. Something that 00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:43.529 I really like as a consumer, because I'm a vegan, 00:13:43.769 --> 00:13:45.750 I like it when I look at a menu and everything 00:13:45.750 --> 00:13:48.590 is extremely well -legal. Maybe there's a section 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:51.330 or a box in the corner that says vegan options 00:13:51.330 --> 00:13:55.269 in big, bright, green, bold letters. To me, that's 00:13:55.269 --> 00:13:57.090 great because I know exactly what I could order. 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.820 But that's actually not great for flexitarians 00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:02.860 or reducitarians or people who might want to 00:14:02.860 --> 00:14:04.820 eat vegan every once in a while because they're 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:06.379 not going to look at that section because they 00:14:06.379 --> 00:14:10.200 don't think it's for them. Instead, not only 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.220 do we need to integrate the vegan options with 00:14:12.220 --> 00:14:15.120 the entire menu, it's actually best to start 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.360 with or end with the vegan options. So the plant 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.200 -based food should be at the top of the menu 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:22.700 right where people can see it. A small change 00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:26.399 of reordering and reintegrating the menu but 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.679 it can increase the amount of their order by 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:33.220 up to 56%. So, we should avoid calling them vegan. 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:36.460 We should make sure that they're blended into 00:14:36.460 --> 00:14:39.929 the entire menu. Of course... For vegan consumers, 00:14:40.090 --> 00:14:41.809 it's always good for us to know what we can and 00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:44.549 can't eat. So you can include a small leaf symbol 00:14:44.549 --> 00:14:47.129 by the menu option or some small symbol that's 00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:49.330 going to be ignored by most people to indicate 00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:52.009 that it is in fact fully vegan, but it shouldn't 00:14:52.009 --> 00:14:54.169 be the main selling point. It shouldn't be in 00:14:54.169 --> 00:14:57.769 the title of the menu option, for example. Okay, 00:14:58.090 --> 00:15:00.590 something else to keep in mind is that the food 00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:03.899 has to be good. That's just an underlying principle 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:05.679 for all forms of vegan outreach, but the food 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.240 has to be good, it needs to be culturally appropriate, 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.139 it needs to be diverse, it needs to be filling, 00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:14.440 and it needs to be tasty. Also, we need to make 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.759 sure that the staff members who are distributing 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.580 this food understand why they should be using 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:23.179 vegan or plant -based nudges and meatballs. If 00:15:23.179 --> 00:15:25.980 they're not bought into the idea, they're not 00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:29.419 really going to be likely to implement it correctly. 00:15:29.710 --> 00:15:32.269 So staff training is one of those underrated 00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:35.110 aspects here. If you're trying to implement this 00:15:35.110 --> 00:15:37.049 in your community, you really need to have a 00:15:37.049 --> 00:15:39.330 conversation with all of these staff members 00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:41.250 or else it's probably not going to work out for 00:15:41.250 --> 00:15:44.490 a long period of time. Okay, so that's why it's 00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:46.610 important to frame the way that we're selling 00:15:46.610 --> 00:15:50.350 vegan items to people. When people think of veganism, 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:52.490 they often have negative associations in mind. 00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:56.879 So by avoiding that label and by presenting the 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.820 food in a much more inclusive and exciting way, 00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:04.340 people are far more likely to choose it. So how 00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:07.019 is this actually being implemented? Well, there 00:16:07.019 --> 00:16:10.679 are plenty of groups that are working hard on 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:13.519 implementing these types of nudges. Greener by 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:15.440 default and the Better Food Foundation are two 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.620 of them. If you're interested, you can collaborate 00:16:18.620 --> 00:16:21.129 with these organizations by reaching out. I can 00:16:21.129 --> 00:16:24.490 put a link in the show notes. If you're a student 00:16:24.490 --> 00:16:26.389 in university, I recommend you reach out to the 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:28.710 Better Food Foundation. If you're working in 00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:31.789 a corporation or a hospital or any sort of other 00:16:31.789 --> 00:16:34.269 institution, I recommend reaching out to Greener 00:16:34.269 --> 00:16:37.269 by default. And you can even email me at bjorn 00:16:37.269 --> 00:16:40.029 at betterfoodfoundation .org if you have questions 00:16:40.029 --> 00:16:43.279 about this. If you're working for a nonprofit 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.759 that's working on nudges, you can join the NGO 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:49.139 Working Group by Better Food Foundation. You 00:16:49.139 --> 00:16:51.039 can reach out to me by email if you want to be 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.500 added. But even if you don't want to work on 00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:56.820 this professionally, you can still do local activism 00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:59.379 to get your institutions to frame the food in 00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:02.799 a better way. Something to keep in mind is that 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:04.900 when you're talking to somebody about why this 00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:08.000 is important, you want to appeal to their motivations. 00:17:08.539 --> 00:17:10.779 I'm sure many people listening to this are super 00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:13.160 concerned about animal welfare and animal rights. 00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:17.059 And I get that. I am as well. But the reality 00:17:17.059 --> 00:17:19.140 is a lot of the a lot of other people in the 00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:21.319 world have different motivations. They might 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.900 want to, for example, reduce the climate emissions 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.279 of the food that they're serving. They might 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.660 want to make their food more inclusive to people 00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:33.519 who have dietary restrictions or allergies or 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.940 maybe their kosher or halal or they can't digest 00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:40.180 dairy, things like that. Or maybe they have a 00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:41.880 climate commitment that they're trying to live 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.059 up to and the food service is a good way for 00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:47.980 them to reach that goal. So try to understand 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:50.980 what the person you're talking to is motivated 00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:54.740 by. And then you can try to talk to them and 00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:57.519 advocate why a plant -based default or better 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.940 plant -based nudges are going to help them reach 00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:02.390 their goal. For example, if they're concerned 00:18:02.390 --> 00:18:04.369 about climate and sustainability, you could talk 00:18:04.369 --> 00:18:07.089 about all of the climate effects of animal -based 00:18:07.089 --> 00:18:11.789 foods, especially beef and pork, but make sure 00:18:11.789 --> 00:18:13.769 that they don't replace the beef and pork with 00:18:13.769 --> 00:18:15.789 chicken or fish because that could actually result 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:18.329 in more animals being harmed and eaten because 00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:21.930 they're the small body problem in which smaller 00:18:21.930 --> 00:18:24.029 animals need to be killed in greater quantities 00:18:24.029 --> 00:18:28.609 to create the same amount of meat. So if you 00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:30.470 have questions about this, I strongly recommend 00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:32.809 you reach out to the Better Food Foundation. 00:18:34.470 --> 00:18:37.650 But I am excited about the concept of plant -based 00:18:37.650 --> 00:18:42.210 nudges. To me, this is a way to reshape the way 00:18:42.210 --> 00:18:45.450 that we are presenting food to the world. It 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:48.150 works. People are more likely to eat vegan when 00:18:48.150 --> 00:18:50.630 they don't really know the way it's presented 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:53.630 to them. Because when they walk into a restaurant, 00:18:53.710 --> 00:18:55.430 they might not even know that the restaurant 00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:58.269 has been nudging them to select certain options 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:02.470 this entire time. I hope that this intervention 00:19:02.470 --> 00:19:05.089 is going to do a lot of positive impact for the 00:19:05.089 --> 00:19:08.289 world going forward, and let me know if you have 00:19:08.289 --> 00:19:11.190 any questions. As always, thank you so much for 00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:14.569 listening. I am really grateful that people are 00:19:14.569 --> 00:19:16.930 excited about the research behind vegan activism, 00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:19.210 because if we're not looking at the research, 00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:21.190 if we're not thinking about what's impactful, 00:19:21.289 --> 00:19:23.269 what is evidence -based, what's going to work 00:19:23.269 --> 00:19:26.349 going forward, Our activism and our advocacy 00:19:26.349 --> 00:19:29.849 is always going to be stagnant. That's what's 00:19:29.849 --> 00:19:31.950 exciting about thinking about the data and the 00:19:31.950 --> 00:19:34.150 impact. We're going to keep getting better every 00:19:34.150 --> 00:19:38.109 single day and making sure we're making the world 00:19:38.109 --> 00:19:40.130 a better place for animals. Thank you so much 00:19:40.130 --> 00:19:40.589 for listening.