Hello everyone, I have a big announcement to
make. In addition to the usual Tuesday episodes,
I invite you to tune in every Wednesday for a
special episode about the science of activism.
Every Wednesday, I will give the microphone to
world -class researchers who study the effectiveness
of animal advocacy and vegan activism. Learn
from them what are the best and worst ways to
make a positive difference in the world. Since
starting this podcast, I have come across strong,
some would even say stubborn opinions on what
the way forward looks like. I even developed
my own strong opinions. But this is our reality
check, a way to verify if our beliefs are backed
by evidence and check if our perception of reality
is not distorted. So connect every Wednesday
and become the most informed and effective activist
out there. Thank you. Today, I'm going to talk
to you about the behavioral science of our food
service institutions, how we can shape it to
make people choose less meat, and why an all
-vegan restaurant might not be as effective as
you think. My name is Bjorn Olufsen. I'm a researcher
and writer who is obsessed with the questions
relating to meat production, animal welfare,
and veganism worldwide. If you want to catch
up with my work, you can follow my sub -step,
more than meets the eye. meats spelled M -E -A
-T -S. You can also follow me on LinkedIn, bjornioonolefsen,
or go to my personal website bjornioon .com.
If you're curious about more of the science of
activism, you can share this episode of The Vegan
Report with your friends or whoever would benefit
from it, and we encourage you to take a listen
every single Wednesday to learn more about this
important research. So, last month, I took a
plane to the Avisun. That's the Animal and Vegan
Advocacy Summit in Nairobi, Kenya. The summit
was great. That's not the important part. But
I had to take an extremely long plane ride from
Barcelona to Nairobi. It was over eight hours
in length. And if any of you are vegan, you know
that it can be quite difficult to eat vegan food
on an airplane. So I had to do this very annoying
thing that I'm sure most of you can relate to.
I had to buy my ticket. Then afterwards I had
to log into the airline manage my booking section
and then scroll and scroll and scroll and find
this tiny little option where I could change
my my meal service from a default meal to a vegan
option You know at the end of the day it took
me 15 minutes But it was kind of annoying tasks
that I didn't really want to go through and it
just is a bit a bit Annoying every single time
I have to fly And then if I forget to do it,
which does happen once in a while, I'm sitting
on the airplane and I'm trying to talk to the
flight attendant, trying to see if there's any
vegan food they have in the back. One time, I
remember a few years ago, I had forgotten to
do this and they had brought me every single
piece of fruit they could find in Brooklyn, because
that was the only vegan food they had. So I was
sitting there with my tray table and they had
like four apples and two bananas and like a pear
in front of me. You know, better than nothing.
but not exactly the vegan meal I had been hoping
for. So why am I telling you this? This is because
airplanes operate on a meat default. If you do
nothing, they will serve you a meat option by
default. Occasionally there's a vegetarian default,
but basically no airline in the world has a vegan
default. If they were to have a vegan default,
all the food they would serve would be vegan.
But if you wanted to eat meat, or eggs, or dairy,
you would have to log in to the airline's website,
manage your booking, figure out how to add the
meat and dairy to your meal. But the thing is,
most people wouldn't go through that trouble,
because it is kind of an annoying task. This
is a central concept called a food default. We
can have a plant -based default, a meat default,
or various versions of it. How are we presenting
these types of food to consumers? Right now,
in the vast majority of the world, the food is
presented with meat and dairy as the default
options. I, as a vegan, and I'm sure many people
listening to this, have to put an extra effort
if we want to eat vegan food. This is true in
cafeterias, in restaurants, in bars, on airplanes,
in corporate offices, workplaces, catering events,
anything you can really think of where you eat
food. We have to put an extra effort. But what
if we could flip it? Now let's talk about behavioral
science of food, specifically something called
a nudge. A nudge you've probably heard of. It
was first popularized in a 2008 book called Nudge
by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein. Right now
I'm working with the Better Food Foundation as
a research specialist on a series of projects
all related to food -based nudges. The idea is
simple. What if we could change the way our food
systems are presenting the options to the consumers
without actually removing the choice at all?
That's what a nudge is. A change of the options,
not the removal of them. If I were to walk into
a vegan restaurant, none of the food would be
nudged to me because there is no option to eat
meat or dairy if I wanted to. I don't want to.
I'm vegan. But let's say I've brought some of
my friends' family to a vegan restaurant. they
would essentially have to eat vegan as long as
they stay within the restaurant premises. But
a nudge is a way to position the option in such
a way that people are more likely to choose it.
There's a million different types of nudges.
And we're going to talk about several of them
today. First, I want to talk about plant -based
defaults. In a plant -based default, a vegan
option is presented to the consumer as the default
option. So let's say you're signing up for a
conference. You'd have to log in and put extra
effort if you wanted the meat option. The same
example with an airline. In a cafeteria, maybe
all of the vegan food is visible to the consumer,
and they'd have to ask a staff member to go to
the back and bring the meat option out, which
might take a little extra time, maybe five or
six minutes. In a restaurant, All the items on
the menu could be vegan, but the consumer would
have to add meat or dairy options for an extra
cost. For example, think of a vegan burrito that
was given to the consumer, but they could add
chicken for an extra $3 or 3 euros. In a vegan
default, a plant -based default, we can see huge
changes. So last year, I did a review. a literature
review of all the studies on plant -based defaults.
And I found that when we had a meat default,
the vegan option was chosen on average 16 .4
% of the time. But in a plant -based default,
the vegan option was chosen 73 .8 % of the time.
That's pretty amazing, right? That's over a three
-fold increase. We're going from a less than
20 % vegan to around three and four options being
entirely vegan. And here's what's the crucial
thing. The meat eaters who were able to eat meat
aren't going to complain. That's the problem
that we've seen with many other... restaurants
or Meatless Mondays or Veganuary or vegan restaurants
or something where the choice is essentially
removed from the consumer. Sometimes, not all
the time, but sometimes there's backlash. For
whatever reason, a lot of people seem to really
really like their meat and when they feel as
if it's been taken away from them, they might
react in a negative way or stop supporting that
business or something like that. which has caused
a lot of those initiatives to fail. Not all,
but enough that we should be concerned about
it. The benefit of a plant -based default is
that everybody is happy. Most people are eating
vegan. The people who really, really crave the
meat are still going to eat the meat, but they're
not likely to complain about it. This is the
central advantage, in my opinion. We're able
to work with food service institutions that might
not be willing to work with us otherwise because
we are giving them something that's not going
to give them backlash or harm the consumer in
any way. There is one thing we should keep in
mind with plant -based defaults is that maybe
the people who eat vegan might eat more meat
later in the day. We only found one study that
measured this and they did find that they're
likely to eat more meat later in the day but
that that amount was less than the amount of
meat saved by the default. So It still works,
but it is a cause for concern that we have to
make sure that the food is filling enough that
people are less likely to eat it later in the
day. On the flip side, there's another type of
behavior change that might be very positive,
which is by having people eat vegan, perhaps
even accidentally, for a long period of time,
they might be more willing to go vegan later
in their life or to reduce their meat consumption.
I haven't been able to find a study that relates
to this question specifically, but I think it's
really worth considering. In my opinion, I think
it's likely that when a plant -based default
has some sort of messaging or narrative or framing
campaign behind it to explain to people exactly
why this is valuable and why it's meaningful,
it might be more likely to change people's minds
about veganism as a diet and as an identity.
For example, in New York City hospitals, They
gave people a plant -based default, and then
after they left, they gave them an informational
packet about why this was important and why this
was implemented. I think this is very exciting.
If we can pair plant -based defaults with other
forms of media and messaging campaigns, we might
be able to use it as a way to shift social norms,
which is crucial for making the world a more
vegan -friendly and less hostile to animals.
So... A plant -based default is super exciting.
And I think it's most exciting in universities
because students are going to be more willing
to be flexible, to experiment, and hopefully
to consider the climate and animal welfare implications
of what they're eating. So that's why I'm working
with the Better Food Foundation. The Better Food
Foundation is working with university students
to implement these plant -based defaults across
the United States and other places in the world.
I'm excited to see this spread. I think not much
effort has been put into this as an intervention
historically, but with a lot more time and resources
behind it, I do think that this could take off
because of the benefits I mentioned earlier.
There's not going to be a backlash. We're going
to see huge changes in consumption, and it might
even change social norms. But defaults aren't
the only way to nudge consumers into choosing
vegan. So let's talk about menus. On a menu,
there are a million different ways we can reshape
them to be more inclusive of the vegan food.
And the first thing we need to keep in mind is
that we probably shouldn't even be using the
word vegan at all. I think a lot of people are
hip to this nowadays, right? Plant -based is
the new term. We should all be using plant -based.
But plant -based is not that much better than
vegan. It's better, but not that much. Instead,
we need to be using terms that appeal to things
like health, the origin of the food, the taste
of the food. So instead of saying vegan burger,
we should use something like umami burger or
spicy chipotle burger or Mediterranean bowl as
opposed to a vegan bowl or something like that.
We're basically trying to give all these other
indicators about what's going to be in the food.
Because the word vegan and the word plant -based,
like it or not, often make people think about
what the food doesn't have. It doesn't have meat.
It doesn't have dairy. And for many people, they
assume that means it doesn't have flavor. I mean,
obviously, I disagree with that. I think vegan
food is great, but not everybody thinks that
way, right? So instead, we need to be framing
these foods in a way that is exciting and appealing
and engaging for people, right? What would you
rather eat? A vegan burger or a spicy umami burger
with sauteed mushrooms on top? Something like
that. Doesn't that sound better? Unless you don't
like mushrooms. In that case, I don't know what
to tell you. Mushrooms are great. So if we're
going to be reshaping the titles of the food
options, We can also be reshaping the way that
the menu itself is structured. Something that
I really like as a consumer, because I'm a vegan,
I like it when I look at a menu and everything
is extremely well -legal. Maybe there's a section
or a box in the corner that says vegan options
in big, bright, green, bold letters. To me, that's
great because I know exactly what I could order.
But that's actually not great for flexitarians
or reducitarians or people who might want to
eat vegan every once in a while because they're
not going to look at that section because they
don't think it's for them. Instead, not only
do we need to integrate the vegan options with
the entire menu, it's actually best to start
with or end with the vegan options. So the plant
-based food should be at the top of the menu
right where people can see it. A small change
of reordering and reintegrating the menu but
it can increase the amount of their order by
up to 56%. So, we should avoid calling them vegan.
We should make sure that they're blended into
the entire menu. Of course... For vegan consumers,
it's always good for us to know what we can and
can't eat. So you can include a small leaf symbol
by the menu option or some small symbol that's
going to be ignored by most people to indicate
that it is in fact fully vegan, but it shouldn't
be the main selling point. It shouldn't be in
the title of the menu option, for example. Okay,
something else to keep in mind is that the food
has to be good. That's just an underlying principle
for all forms of vegan outreach, but the food
has to be good, it needs to be culturally appropriate,
it needs to be diverse, it needs to be filling,
and it needs to be tasty. Also, we need to make
sure that the staff members who are distributing
this food understand why they should be using
vegan or plant -based nudges and meatballs. If
they're not bought into the idea, they're not
really going to be likely to implement it correctly.
So staff training is one of those underrated
aspects here. If you're trying to implement this
in your community, you really need to have a
conversation with all of these staff members
or else it's probably not going to work out for
a long period of time. Okay, so that's why it's
important to frame the way that we're selling
vegan items to people. When people think of veganism,
they often have negative associations in mind.
So by avoiding that label and by presenting the
food in a much more inclusive and exciting way,
people are far more likely to choose it. So how
is this actually being implemented? Well, there
are plenty of groups that are working hard on
implementing these types of nudges. Greener by
default and the Better Food Foundation are two
of them. If you're interested, you can collaborate
with these organizations by reaching out. I can
put a link in the show notes. If you're a student
in university, I recommend you reach out to the
Better Food Foundation. If you're working in
a corporation or a hospital or any sort of other
institution, I recommend reaching out to Greener
by default. And you can even email me at bjorn
at betterfoodfoundation .org if you have questions
about this. If you're working for a nonprofit
that's working on nudges, you can join the NGO
Working Group by Better Food Foundation. You
can reach out to me by email if you want to be
added. But even if you don't want to work on
this professionally, you can still do local activism
to get your institutions to frame the food in
a better way. Something to keep in mind is that
when you're talking to somebody about why this
is important, you want to appeal to their motivations.
I'm sure many people listening to this are super
concerned about animal welfare and animal rights.
And I get that. I am as well. But the reality
is a lot of the a lot of other people in the
world have different motivations. They might
want to, for example, reduce the climate emissions
of the food that they're serving. They might
want to make their food more inclusive to people
who have dietary restrictions or allergies or
maybe their kosher or halal or they can't digest
dairy, things like that. Or maybe they have a
climate commitment that they're trying to live
up to and the food service is a good way for
them to reach that goal. So try to understand
what the person you're talking to is motivated
by. And then you can try to talk to them and
advocate why a plant -based default or better
plant -based nudges are going to help them reach
their goal. For example, if they're concerned
about climate and sustainability, you could talk
about all of the climate effects of animal -based
foods, especially beef and pork, but make sure
that they don't replace the beef and pork with
chicken or fish because that could actually result
in more animals being harmed and eaten because
they're the small body problem in which smaller
animals need to be killed in greater quantities
to create the same amount of meat. So if you
have questions about this, I strongly recommend
you reach out to the Better Food Foundation.
But I am excited about the concept of plant -based
nudges. To me, this is a way to reshape the way
that we are presenting food to the world. It
works. People are more likely to eat vegan when
they don't really know the way it's presented
to them. Because when they walk into a restaurant,
they might not even know that the restaurant
has been nudging them to select certain options
this entire time. I hope that this intervention
is going to do a lot of positive impact for the
world going forward, and let me know if you have
any questions. As always, thank you so much for
listening. I am really grateful that people are
excited about the research behind vegan activism,
because if we're not looking at the research,
if we're not thinking about what's impactful,
what is evidence -based, what's going to work
going forward, Our activism and our advocacy
is always going to be stagnant. That's what's
exciting about thinking about the data and the
impact. We're going to keep getting better every
single day and making sure we're making the world
a better place for animals. Thank you so much
for listening.