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Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan

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and today we respond to an episode from the Jordan

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B. Peterson podcast posted on April 17 and titled,

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The Best Argument Against Veganism. For that

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episode, Dr. Peterson interviews Joel Salatin,

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co -owner of Polyface Farm and an outspoken proponent

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of regenerative animal farming. Joel Saliton

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happens to be featured in Chapter 8 of The Omnivore's

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Dilemma, the bestseller of author Michael Pollan.

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Both of them, Saliton and Pollan, have been instrumental

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in popularizing the idea that animal exploitation

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can be humane and ecological. To debunk this

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Jordan Peterson interview and set the record

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straight, I have with me the perfect guest, John

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Sanbonmatsu. John has written The Omnivore's

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Deception, which completely obliterates the Michael

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Pollan's Omnivore's Dilemma. The Omnivore Deception

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is a true animal rights classic, and I highly

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recommend it. I did a whole episode on it. Get

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a copy of the book, link in the episode's notes.

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And please share this episode everywhere. John

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called me an optimist. I don't know if one day

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we could hope to see Jordan become vegan, but

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at the very least I hope that his supporters

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and listeners get exposed to what is really veganism

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about. So spread the word. Every gesture of support

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is appreciated. Thank you so much. Let's start

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with talking about Bill. Let's talk about our

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fond memories of Bill. I remember the first time

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Bill Gates called me and told me, hey, Ryan,

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me and the other globalists feel strongly that

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you should start a podcast about veganism. And

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I'm sure he also called you to write your latest

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book. Yeah, Bill. Yeah, I was on the call with

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George Soros at the time, and I had to put George

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on hold in order to take the call from Bill.

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And he had left his his golf clubs at my Chateau.

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So we had to talk about that, too. Yeah, no,

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it's it's great to feel like we're part of the

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global conspiracy. I don't know how you feel

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about it, but I am gives me a sense of purpose.

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Yeah, I mean, When he when Jordan Peterson says

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that veganism and this whole push to reduce or

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stop eating animal products comes from a cabal

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of globalist elites So, you know we hear all

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this nonsense at high levels among the globalists

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about the fact that agriculture is a net pollutant

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and that we have to radically cut back, for example,

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on our meat consumption, which is something that's

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like, oh, I see. So everybody's going to have

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a little brain because they eat nothing but plants.

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That's your damn theory, right? And so, you know,

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you hear about these. Well, if we're all if we're

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all eating beans, that might solve the gas problem.

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Well, apparently Bill Gates has a solution to

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that. I just feel he's he doesn't know any vegan.

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in his life. As I do, he doesn't understand how

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much of a grassroots movement this is. And as

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someone who works in fundraising, I can tell

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you, I can attest to the fact that animal charities

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are struggling to get funding from the wealthiest,

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from foundations. This idea that reducing meat

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is popular and well -funded and part of a global

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agenda of some sort, it feels ridiculous when

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you're part of this community. Well, absolutely.

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But I mean, this idea of conspiracy of a small

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number of people is, of course, grounded ultimately

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in anti -Semitic tropes going back centuries,

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right? the propaganda around the so -called Protocols

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of the Elders of Zion, which is this document

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that supposedly showed that Jews met secretly

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to control everything. And I joked about George

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Soros because of course he's a Jewish billionaire

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philanthropist who gives money through the Open

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Society Foundation to liberal charities and stuff

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and parties. But in reality, as you point out,

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I mean, vegans are, first of all, a powerless

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minority. I'm sorry to give a spoiler alert to

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your audience. But it's important to understand

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or to acknowledge that the kinds of discourses

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that Jordan Peterson pervades have a long history.

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you know, of demonizing a small group and saying

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it's a conspiracy of elites and so forth. And

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it's quite striking in this right -wing environment

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where we see fascism rising in many different

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contexts around the world, particularly Europe

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and the United States, although not just there,

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that the demonization of anyone who descends

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from the status quo is accelerating, that demonization

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is accelerating. And it's interesting that veganism

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and animal rights has become a focal point. Governor

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DeSantis in Florida, for example, issued a proclamation

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talking about the global conspiracy, globalists

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want to take away people's meat and so on. So

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it's all tied up with all this other bad political

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stuff about domination of men over women and

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so on. It's a lot to unravel. And also the fact

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that veganism has been around for decades now.

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The vegan society, I think, was born just after

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World War II. And even before that, you had the

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vegetarian society, you had movements of communities

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of vegetarian people. And you can, you know,

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go back to the Middle Ages with characters like

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Al -Ma 'ri who was arguing for abstaining from

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animal products. He's a Syrian poet, again, from

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the Dark Ages. Yeah, so this feeling that you

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should abstain, that it is immoral to exploit

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animals has been with humanity since the beginning

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of time, like since hundreds, if not thousands

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of years. Well, thousands of years. I mean, the

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first person to call himself a philosopher or

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lover of wisdom, philosophia was Pythagoras,

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from whom we get the Pythagorean theorem. And

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the kind of cults that developed after his death

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were vegetarian. And part of that seems to have

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been an ethical critique of our violence against

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animals, because Ovid talks about it in the Metamorphoses

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centuries later. Plutarch and Porphyry or some

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other ancient thinkers who were talking about

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analytics. And also then from the eastern side

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in Hinduism and Buddhism and Jainism, we find

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critiques of our violence against animals and

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eating of animals literally for 2000 years. So

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yeah, this idea that it's some kind of conspiracy

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of PETA, for example, right? PETA is the kind

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of whipping boy or a lot of this stuff. or that

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it's a fad. No, it's not. It's been rooted in

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civilization for many, many years as an idea.

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But I think it's significant that it's become,

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as they say, so important in right -wing discourse.

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And I think it's precisely because it's kind

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of the linchpin that holds together the most

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destructive features of our civilization. Our

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domination over other animals becomes the basis

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for dominating other human groups. To vilify

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a group of people as animals or animal -like

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is to prepare the way for violence against them,

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including genocide. One of the first things that

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happened after the October 7th attacks is that

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Yoav Galant, the defense minister in Israel,

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referred to the people in Gaza as as human animals,

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you know, that's who they were fighting. And

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so you treat, because we treat non human animals

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as things to be destroyed, then you apply that

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to a social group or ethnic group, and that justifies

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the violence. So again, I don't think I mean,

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people think that the issues that we talk about,

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about animals is somehow trivial, but I really

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don't agree with that. I think that it's It's

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central to the whole apparatus of capitalist

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production and patriarchy and all these these

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things that are keeping humans in a kind of perpetual

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bondage of violence and misunderstanding and

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suffering Yes, and one last point about this

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idea of a conspiracy If vegans were that powerful

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with, you know, the global elites and all of

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the billionaires, and we had all of them as allies,

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then how come Big Ag is thriving right now? Yeah.

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No, I mean, it's just so absurd. And yet, as

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the saying goes, a lie will travel halfway around

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the world while the truth is still pulling on

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its trousers. I mean, it's It's a topsy -turvy

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environment. We're going to be talking about

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Jordan Peterson, but one thing that struck me

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not for the first time was just how wacko his

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views are about climate change. He's a conspiracy

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theorist. He says that arguably some of the carbon

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emissions warming the planet are human produced.

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Arguably, there's no argument But because he's

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very glib and very, you know, he has a PhD and

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he's very confident in his own skin, it's amazing

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how easy it is to fool people who want to be

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fooled. I think that's really important. It's

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not just that he's glib and he's a good propagandist

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and ideologue. He's speaking to the worst parts

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of the human personality and people who want

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to believe the lies, really lies that he's purveying.

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Yes, let's talk about climate change. He does

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bring some interesting points about climate change.

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And I want to start with this. You don't need

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to be a climatologist to understand the impact,

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the negative impact of animal farming on the

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environment. If you just, you know, go and visit

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rural areas and pay attention or have this discussions

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with people living in those areas about the impact

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of livestock farming on the ecosystem, you would

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realize quite quickly, that it is a very negative

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impact. So, yeah, there've been studies about

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this that, for example, grazing animals, however,

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wisely, that's quote stewardship is the results

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in something like a 75 % biodiversity loss. Now

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all for to be sure all forms of agriculture are

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ecologically damaging one way or the other. I

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mean, but the lowest impact is vegan farming

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without any animal inputs. As soon as you have

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animal inputs in there, in addition to committing

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injustices against the animals, you've just created

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new inefficiencies that simply weren't there

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before and are not required. So one of the things

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that was interesting about the Peterson interview

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with Saliton is this claim that Well, there have

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always been ruminants who have been producing

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gases and why aren't all of these animal rights

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people and environmentalists concerned about

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the wild bison? We hear a lot of noise about...

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how cows are contributing to global warming,

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which, you know, is an idea that's really struck

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me as rather specious right from the beginning.

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Because, like, the buffalo did that, too? Like,

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I see, so huge herds of grazing animals are bad

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for the planet. That strikes me as highly unlikely.

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So, and I know they talk about methane, but,

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you know, people talk about a lot of things.

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Now, it wasn't clear whether they were only talking

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about the past or today, but I looked up the

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number of... these animals today. There are only

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six to nine million feral pigs, for example,

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wild pigs in the United States, and I think 20

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,000 or 30 ,000 wild bison. So we're talking

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about an order of magnitude, more than an order

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of magnitude of cows and sheep and pigs and so

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forth. I think 130 million pigs are killed every

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year in the United States and over 30 million

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cows. millions of sheep, and then the billions

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of chickens. In addition to their suffering,

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we have to look at the enormous ecological impact,

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which I read somewhere is something like 400

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pounds of carbon emissions per capita in the

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United States. Humans eating chickens causes

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that. So again, it's like this Orwellian inversion

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of the facts. But as I explained in my book,

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it's really about bad faith. It's like people

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wanting to believe that they can by embracing

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regenerative animal agriculture or smaller scale

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farming, that's somehow going to solve the ecological

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calamities that get produced. And as you say,

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if you live near a farm, maybe in your observant,

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maybe you notice this. But I'll tell you this,

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here in Massachusetts, there are You almost never

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see wild animals anymore. It's incredible. They've

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just been decimated by a whole variety of things

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and people just don't notice. So I think that

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most people seeing a denuded landscape or you'd

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have to... grown up in nature to really appreciate

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what's lost. And I think more and more people

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are growing up in completely synthetic and indeed,

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digital and virtual worlds where they don't even

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notice the losses that are piling up at our feet.

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Yes, and you go into that in the beginning of

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your book, actually, which, you know, it was

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a touching passage of the book. because we all

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had that experience at some level. It's environmental

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destruction is a trend, and it's kind of exponential.

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So yeah, we've all been affected with that. And

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let me add to what you said about those wild

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herbivores, big herbivores. Those creatures are

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part of an ecosystem that, you know, balances

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itself. This is not the case for the cows that

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we're farming, that we're exploiting. So add

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to this, you know, the the layer of how he's

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like ignoring the the ecosystem and the environment

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and the complexity of that whole question. Yeah,

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it's, you know, people talk about humans as being

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at the top of the food chain. And that's a very

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common way of understanding our place in nature.

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And it's completely not true. First of all, if

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you or I go into a swamp with an alligator or

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a crocodile, we're going to realize pretty quickly

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we're not at the top of any food chain. But beyond

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that, there's really, there's not that idea of

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a food chain. It's this vertical model of a hierarchy,

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but actually it's a food web. There are all these

00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:03.259
interconnected organisms, plants and animals,

00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:05.559
a kind of harmony that developed over the course

00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:07.700
of millions and millions of years, a billion

00:17:07.700 --> 00:17:10.579
years of evolution. And as you point out, the

00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:13.480
animal agriculture system is not part of that.

00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.180
It's this artificial thing that was just thrust

00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:21.680
into the terrestrial sphere, and it's destroying

00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.259
the web of life. It's consuming the web of life.

00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:26.640
It's the most ecologically destructive force

00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:28.839
on the earth, which people don't realize. That

00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:30.960
really drives me nuts. People think, well, global

00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.079
warming is the worst environmental disaster.

00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:35.380
First of all, that's not true. It's the mass

00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:38.460
species extinction crisis, which is even worse,

00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:42.559
which is partly caused by global warming. But

00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.099
animal agriculture and the fishing industry,

00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:47.599
put those together, they are the most destructive

00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.119
force on the earth, along with the capitalist

00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:52.160
system for sure, which is intertwined with it.

00:17:54.309 --> 00:17:57.369
But getting back to a point you made earlier,

00:17:57.470 --> 00:18:00.009
it's like the meat industry, the animal industry

00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:04.869
in general is so incredibly powerful that it

00:18:04.869 --> 00:18:08.990
papers over and occludes or covers over what

00:18:08.990 --> 00:18:13.569
are simply undeniable facts about the disappearance

00:18:13.569 --> 00:18:21.880
of species across the earth. depletion of topsoil,

00:18:23.859 --> 00:18:26.740
the dumping of nitrogen runoff into the oceans,

00:18:26.859 --> 00:18:29.819
which is causing algal blooms and killing fish.

00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:32.299
I mean, it just goes on and on. It's a cascade

00:18:32.299 --> 00:18:36.920
of catastrophes. And then along comes Joel Saliton,

00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:40.720
Michael Pollan, and these other critics and farmers

00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.640
who tell us, oh, there's a better way to do this.

00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.019
There's a way that we can have our meat and eat

00:18:47.019 --> 00:18:50.970
it too. even have our conscience and keep going

00:18:50.970 --> 00:18:53.450
along with the system. And it's just a kind of

00:18:53.450 --> 00:18:56.650
elaborate set of lies really and half truths,

00:18:57.269 --> 00:19:00.490
a mythology to reassure the consumer that things

00:19:00.490 --> 00:19:03.470
aren't as bad as you think and we're moving to

00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:07.329
a brighter future. And there isn't any future

00:19:07.329 --> 00:19:10.730
for life on this planet given this trajectory.

00:19:11.430 --> 00:19:14.230
There just isn't and people don't They won't

00:19:14.230 --> 00:19:16.490
realize it until there's no freshwater. All the

00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:19.250
freshwater aquifers in the United States are

00:19:19.250 --> 00:19:22.690
almost depleted, mostly due to animal agriculture.

00:19:23.210 --> 00:19:25.589
Even the American cities are sinking into the

00:19:25.589 --> 00:19:28.930
ground because the water has been taken up. Well,

00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:31.609
that water took God knows how many thousands,

00:19:31.750 --> 00:19:33.569
hundreds of thousands of years to get there,

00:19:33.869 --> 00:19:37.269
and it can't just be replenished. But it's like

00:19:37.269 --> 00:19:40.190
a dream world that we're all living in and not

00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.299
Not understanding that we're like, it's like,

00:19:43.339 --> 00:19:45.019
you know, use the metaphor of thin ice. We're

00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:47.440
skating along without understanding that there's

00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.720
just nothing beneath us, you know, as we begin

00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:55.980
falling. Yeah, that was a weird tension in the

00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:59.460
conversation or kind of a contradiction because

00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:04.119
here is Jordan Peterson making the point that

00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:08.140
we're not in a dire situation, ecological situation,

00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:12.339
but that the same time that you know, it was

00:20:12.339 --> 00:20:18.180
preferable to do sustainable farming, Allah,

00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:24.019
John Saliton. And then you think, which is it?

00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.900
Are we in an environmental crisis? And is, you

00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:30.460
know, the exploitation of animal causing destruction

00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:34.970
and havoc all around us? Or is, you know, the

00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:38.950
climate crisis a myth and we're not in a dire

00:20:38.950 --> 00:20:42.430
situation. But then, you know, what's the point

00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:47.849
of doing the kind of farming that John Salton

00:20:47.849 --> 00:20:52.890
is defending? Joel Salton, sorry. Yeah, thank

00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:57.269
you. No, that's really that's a great point.

00:20:57.369 --> 00:21:00.029
It's true. Like they want to have it both ways

00:21:00.029 --> 00:21:03.599
that they're trivializing. the environmental

00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.579
crisis, denying the basic facts of global warming,

00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.500
and yet at the same time, appealing to a broad

00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:13.480
swath of consumers, including a lot of liberal

00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.519
consumers, I would point out, who think that

00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:19.160
they are environmentalist and care about the

00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.000
earth and vaguely concerned about animal welfare,

00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.900
whatever, making these arguments at the same

00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:27.680
time that say, well, this is better for everybody.

00:21:28.339 --> 00:21:30.920
So it's an implicit acknowledgement, as you've

00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:34.690
said, of of a problem that needs to be fixed.

00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:36.509
And animal agriculture is a problem that needs

00:21:36.509 --> 00:21:40.210
to be fixed. It just can't be fixed. That's the

00:21:40.210 --> 00:21:42.410
issue. If you're going to have eight to 10 billion

00:21:42.410 --> 00:21:44.009
human beings on the earth, and you're going to

00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:47.630
try to provide them with literally trillions

00:21:47.630 --> 00:21:54.869
of dead animals, including sea life, without

00:21:54.869 --> 00:21:58.049
tearing up what I described as the web of life.

00:21:58.630 --> 00:22:01.170
without causing enormous suffering to the beings

00:22:01.170 --> 00:22:04.470
through this mass violence. It simply can't be

00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:07.450
done. I mean, just prima facie. As I say, at

00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:09.910
the first glance, it can't be done. And on examination,

00:22:10.089 --> 00:22:13.950
it can't be done. Nor should it be done. I mean,

00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:17.329
even if there was a way to, as Salvaton claims,

00:22:17.630 --> 00:22:20.829
to have forms of animal agriculture where the

00:22:20.829 --> 00:22:25.940
animals thrive for a brief period of time, There's

00:22:25.940 --> 00:22:28.880
a contradiction involved in saying that you care

00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.980
about the quality of the lives of the animals,

00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:33.579
and then you're going to inflict extreme violence

00:22:33.579 --> 00:22:36.019
against them. You're going to kill them. Well,

00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:39.220
if their lives are meaningful or worthwhile,

00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.019
then how can you kill them like that? How can

00:22:43.019 --> 00:22:44.900
you kill them when they're juveniles also? They're

00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:47.079
young animals. They're not like a chicken in

00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.799
the wild can live, I think, up to 15 years or

00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:54.549
more. not the bioengineered ones that Saladin

00:22:54.549 --> 00:22:56.930
uses, but, you know, in their natural habitat.

00:22:58.049 --> 00:23:00.069
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that

00:23:00.069 --> 00:23:03.309
many chickens are killed in like six weeks, but

00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:08.109
certainly within months. So yeah, again, I keep

00:23:08.109 --> 00:23:10.710
coming back to the word Orwellian because it's

00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:14.829
the way that these folks use language and manipulate

00:23:14.829 --> 00:23:19.309
the information, the facts to suit their arguments.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.259
It reminds me of totalitarianism, honestly. And

00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:29.680
in a way, we live in a totalitarian culture vis

00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.240
-a -vis other species. It's just taken for granted

00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.279
that doing these things to other animals is natural

00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:39.740
and right. And so everyone goes along with it.

00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:46.980
Yeah, I found it so revealing that Soliton kept

00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:51.170
making the point that the best skill you could

00:23:51.170 --> 00:23:54.009
develop in your life is communication and the

00:23:54.009 --> 00:23:57.630
mastery of language. And he said the secret of

00:23:57.630 --> 00:24:01.009
his success and the success of his farm, I think

00:24:01.009 --> 00:24:06.869
it's called polyface. Polyface. What a funny

00:24:06.869 --> 00:24:10.930
name. When you think of the hypocrisy of his

00:24:10.930 --> 00:24:17.859
arguments and his words, but Yeah, the secret

00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:22.539
of that success was marketing and the relationship

00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:27.180
he was developing with his clients. I have moms

00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:29.099
come up to me with their little 10 -year -old

00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:32.220
in tow. My son wants to be a farmer or daughter

00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:34.319
wants to be a farmer. What would you suggest

00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:39.329
to them? the amateur theater group, enroll them.

00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:42.269
Right, right, right, right. Get them, get them.

00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:44.569
So counterintuitive, Dave. Yes, and they look

00:24:44.569 --> 00:24:49.250
at me like, yeah, become a storyteller. Storytellers

00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:51.190
are what change the world. Yeah, right, that's

00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:55.190
exactly right. And so, obviously, 82, this is

00:24:55.190 --> 00:24:58.589
before computers, before internet, any of this

00:24:58.589 --> 00:25:00.849
stuff, and so we basically did a three -prong

00:25:00.849 --> 00:25:05.160
approach. I put together a slide program. you

00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:08.059
know, the old Kodak carousel, you know, a slide

00:25:08.059 --> 00:25:11.680
projector. And at that time, every city had a

00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.000
very vibrant kind of, you know, philanthropy,

00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:20.000
you know, Rotary Club, Ruritan, Kiwanis, Elks,

00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.819
Toastmasters, Elks, Moose, right. And they do,

00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:25.900
you know, weekly or monthly dinner meetings.

00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:27.539
And they're always looking for an interesting

00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:31.079
program. And so I put together a carousel program,

00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:33.599
how we can heal the planet with pastor -based

00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.140
livestock. And so, yes, it very much, you know,

00:25:37.299 --> 00:25:42.039
echoes the point you're making. Call it marketing.

00:25:42.339 --> 00:25:47.299
I'll call it lies. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm

00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:49.819
forgetting the name of the fellow who created

00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:54.339
the very term public relations, but he had been

00:25:54.339 --> 00:26:00.339
originally to help during the first or second

00:26:00.339 --> 00:26:02.700
World War. I'm so, so bad with this at the moment.

00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:06.299
I can't remember. But what is that difference?

00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:09.599
Propaganda is simply mass psychological manipulation.

00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:13.519
Well, that's what marketing is. You get people

00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.859
to think that they want something. You get people

00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.240
to think they need something, and then they buy

00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:23.500
it. So Saliton brags about the fact that he spent

00:26:23.500 --> 00:26:26.059
his life committing acts of violence against

00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:28.720
animals and then basically manipulating people

00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:33.940
into thinking that it's okay and it's just, it's

00:26:33.940 --> 00:26:36.099
good for the environment. I mean, it's just ludicrous.

00:26:36.509 --> 00:26:38.730
You can't even, I mean, you couldn't scale up

00:26:38.730 --> 00:26:41.789
Saliton's farm anyway. I mean, it's a big enough

00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:43.769
operation where they're killing hundreds, thousands

00:26:43.769 --> 00:26:47.069
of animals every year. But even so, they're just,

00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:48.670
first of all, there isn't enough land on the

00:26:48.670 --> 00:26:50.430
earth to do the kinds of things he's talking

00:26:50.430 --> 00:26:55.029
about. And second of all, the way that capitalism

00:26:55.029 --> 00:26:58.789
works as a system, and he's a libertarian, so

00:26:58.789 --> 00:27:01.150
he's not critical of the system, right? Is that

00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:05.759
as Marx pointed out 200 years ago, It's built

00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:09.819
to create monopolies. Because the system is based

00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:14.119
on competition, the bigger the company has the

00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.019
advantage and it gobbles up the smaller company

00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:18.400
and so on. And you can look at every sphere of

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.299
society and see every industry, whether the military

00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:25.400
industrial complex or the media industry or the

00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:28.819
meat industry. And you see companies getting

00:27:28.819 --> 00:27:30.579
bigger and bigger and bigger over the last, especially

00:27:30.579 --> 00:27:33.940
the last 30 years. This notion that we're going

00:27:33.940 --> 00:27:36.839
to go back to small -scale animal farming, the

00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:41.799
small family farm, it's ridiculous because the

00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.259
economic pressures are going in the exact opposite

00:27:44.259 --> 00:27:47.440
direction. Look at Nyman Ranch. Bill and Nicole

00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.619
Nyman ran this enterprise of selling so -called

00:27:52.619 --> 00:28:00.119
pasture -raised organic animal products. and

00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.079
they were the toast to the liberal intelligentsia

00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.619
in the United States, given a lot of real estate

00:28:04.619 --> 00:28:07.380
in the op -ed pages of the New York Times. Well,

00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:09.940
they sold that, I think, to Coleman beef, and

00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:12.880
then that was bought by, eventually, the chicken

00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.039
operation, maybe the beef operation, too, were

00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.940
bought by Purdue. Now, Purdue, of course, is

00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:22.039
one of the largest killers of chickens in the

00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.500
world, as well as a huge corporate polluter.

00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:30.559
They employ child labor. immigrant child laborers

00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.119
who would get injured or killed on the assembly

00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:36.140
line, this assembly line and slaughterhouses.

00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.140
So, well, that's not an accident. I mean, you

00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:45.880
know, that's simply the free market, right? So

00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.480
again, like if you accept all of these premises

00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:53.039
about natural hierarchy, about God having created

00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:57.349
a capitalism really to help us out, I mean, then

00:28:57.349 --> 00:28:59.789
there's a certain logic to the arguments. But

00:28:59.789 --> 00:29:02.410
if you don't accept these flawed premises, then

00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:04.650
the whole thing, the conclusions fall apart.

00:29:06.509 --> 00:29:10.329
So I haven't looked into the mind of salt. And

00:29:10.329 --> 00:29:14.690
I'm pretty sure he understands that he, you know,

00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:18.009
he's a smart guy. I think he knows that his model

00:29:18.009 --> 00:29:23.130
cannot be reproduced at scale. And capitalism

00:29:23.130 --> 00:29:26.799
is smart in that way, you know, It identified

00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.460
the demand for animal products and it conceived

00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:35.240
a way to Respond to that demand in the most efficient

00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:38.559
way and that's how we have factory farming I

00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.299
think they've already you know questioned themselves

00:29:41.299 --> 00:29:45.720
Can we can we adopt a soliton model and the answer

00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:50.339
was obviously? No, and the fact that you preach

00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:55.200
to people, you know go into rural areas and invest

00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.660
in homesteading and you can have your backyard

00:29:58.660 --> 00:30:01.160
chickens and so on. Well, most people cannot

00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:05.059
even afford a house. How do you want them to

00:30:05.059 --> 00:30:11.019
be able to afford that lifestyle? And let's not

00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:13.839
even talk about the lifestyle. Let's just talk

00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:17.720
about the products that he sells. I did not look

00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:21.410
into the price tag, but I'm pretty sure those

00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:23.769
are not, you know, the cheap products you find

00:30:23.769 --> 00:30:27.089
in your local grocery shop. You know, it's interesting.

00:30:27.210 --> 00:30:30.369
I had a, I was part of a debate on Earth Day

00:30:30.369 --> 00:30:33.829
a couple of years ago at Boston College here

00:30:33.829 --> 00:30:38.990
in Massachusetts. And I was debating a farmer

00:30:38.990 --> 00:30:43.890
and an academic at Tufts University who has this

00:30:43.869 --> 00:30:47.230
large medium -sized animal farm here in Massachusetts

00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:53.369
and has this whole glib presentation about regenerative

00:30:53.369 --> 00:30:58.089
agriculture and all these buzzwords. And even

00:30:58.089 --> 00:31:00.529
she acknowledged that this is not necessary,

00:31:00.569 --> 00:31:03.069
that the animal inputs are there because she

00:31:03.069 --> 00:31:05.690
likes to eat meat and her consumers, her clients

00:31:05.690 --> 00:31:09.049
like to eat meat and it has this exorbitant price

00:31:09.049 --> 00:31:12.230
tag. And what she said is, I believe as I recall,

00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:14.059
is something that I've heard before, which is

00:31:14.059 --> 00:31:17.500
that, well, the fact that only rich people or

00:31:17.500 --> 00:31:20.539
whatever upper middle class people can afford

00:31:20.539 --> 00:31:24.000
these products and who seek out these products.

00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:28.880
Well, the price tag helps us reduce our meat

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.660
consumption, you see, because the problem is,

00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:34.160
you know, Michael Pollan makes this argument,

00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:36.319
you know, we should we should eat less meat,

00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:39.859
but higher quality. But of course, it doesn't

00:31:39.859 --> 00:31:42.759
reduce demand at all. I mean, all it does is

00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:48.059
create a new niche market of a boutique meat

00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:51.200
and boutique animal products for wealthy people.

00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:53.759
So yeah, it comes with a high price tag. And

00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:00.480
so it can't compete with lower priced products

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.009
turned out by JBS or Purdue or. any of these

00:32:05.009 --> 00:32:07.869
other mega companies. But again, it's not really

00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:12.769
meant to. It's simply, it's in parallel, right?

00:32:12.769 --> 00:32:14.710
And this, by the way, I'd say this is also a

00:32:14.710 --> 00:32:18.890
problem with some vegan, consumer -oriented vegan.

00:32:20.829 --> 00:32:24.990
Yeah, there's this kind of naiveté even among

00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:29.170
some vegans that the capitalist market will somehow

00:32:29.170 --> 00:32:32.309
create vegan alternatives that will convince

00:32:32.309 --> 00:32:35.460
people to change their diets and so on. But if

00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:38.279
you look at what's been happening over the last

00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:41.079
20 years, there are more vegan products than

00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:46.000
ever, specialty products, vegan cheeses and meats

00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:49.079
and so forth, and yet per capita meat consumption

00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:52.099
is up. More animals being killed than before.

00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.740
And in fact, some of the very companies like

00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:00.380
Maple Leaf Foods in Canada, the largest meat

00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:02.579
packing company in Canada, they've taken over

00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:09.000
the vegan product line of field roast. So we

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.640
have to take a system -wide view, a systemic

00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:15.799
view of the problem and understand the forces

00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:21.740
that are pushing calamitous forms of animal agriculture.

00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:26.359
So again, all this is to say that Joel Soliton's

00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:30.740
polyphase farm, apart from the problems of the

00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:32.700
farm, the violence at the farm, the suffering

00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:34.519
of the animals and degradation of the animals

00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:39.700
on his farm, apart from Joel Saliton's lies or

00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:43.380
his mythologies about what happens, even that

00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:46.980
is all to the side and inconsequential next to

00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:51.240
monopoly capitalism and the juggernaut of these

00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:53.420
immensely powerful billion -dollar companies

00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:58.900
that are keeping humans addicted to these products

00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:01.339
that are disastrous for animals and for the earth

00:34:01.339 --> 00:34:05.160
and for human health. But I think the thing is

00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.239
that someone like Soliton and also Michael Pollan,

00:34:08.300 --> 00:34:10.780
who are criticized in my book, or Temple Grandin,

00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:16.210
these figures are enormously important for the

00:34:16.210 --> 00:34:19.809
kind of ideological reinforcement that's necessary

00:34:19.809 --> 00:34:22.789
to keep people from questioning the system. As

00:34:22.789 --> 00:34:24.730
long as in the back of the consumer's mind, they

00:34:24.730 --> 00:34:27.949
can think, oh, well, if I had the money or the

00:34:27.949 --> 00:34:30.710
time, I'd go and buy humanely raised pasture

00:34:30.710 --> 00:34:34.289
-based whatever, cage -free, et cetera. But you

00:34:34.289 --> 00:34:36.130
know, I'm in a hurry and I'm gonna take the kids

00:34:36.130 --> 00:34:38.309
to McDonald's. So we're just gonna eat there.

00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:41.230
So it kind of gets them off because they think

00:34:41.230 --> 00:34:43.329
that deep inside, they're a good person who would

00:34:43.329 --> 00:34:46.750
choose this other realm. And in fact, it doesn't

00:34:46.750 --> 00:34:48.710
matter. I mean, there's been plenty of investigations

00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:53.070
as you know of Chipotle and other companies that

00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:57.610
have been supposedly sourcing humane, humanely

00:34:57.610 --> 00:35:02.210
raised chickens and so on. And it's a scam. I

00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:05.090
mean, the animals are putting gas chambers in

00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:09.489
some cases on organic farms and the direct action

00:35:09.489 --> 00:35:12.269
everywhere and others have looked at the supply

00:35:12.269 --> 00:35:17.699
chain. found, you know, animals, terribly abused

00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:22.739
and suffering. So the it's just it's interesting

00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:26.559
that this one idea that we should just not harm

00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:30.059
our other fellow creatures is so radical, just

00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:34.239
the idea so radical that it has to be stamped

00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:38.119
down as quickly and as aggressively as possible.

00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:45.570
Right? Yes. You mentioned how some vegans have

00:35:45.570 --> 00:35:51.570
decided to bet on the capitalist market to, you

00:35:51.570 --> 00:35:55.869
know, advance the cause. And, you know, this

00:35:55.869 --> 00:36:01.269
is just a window into how diverse the vegan movement

00:36:01.269 --> 00:36:05.690
is, how there are people like you, John, and

00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:09.650
then there are others who, you know, support,

00:36:09.650 --> 00:36:15.760
you know, free market. models. There are conservative

00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:17.920
vegans, believe it or not, Jordan. There are

00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:20.739
plenty of conservative vegans out there. I had

00:36:20.739 --> 00:36:24.239
one of them, Liam Gray, who founded the Wilberforce

00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:30.360
Institute. You have vegans of all religion. There

00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.280
are plenty of Christian vegans. I invited Daniel

00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:37.360
Mascarenas, who's studying to become a Catholic

00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:42.280
priest. Just like we have Hindu vegans and Buddhist

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:46.579
Vegans, you know, I'm one of them here and you

00:36:46.579 --> 00:36:52.219
know the fact that they love to Just generalize

00:36:52.219 --> 00:36:58.539
and make us into this monolith Is just so frustrating

00:36:58.539 --> 00:37:04.960
Yeah, they're missing out and You know coming

00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:10.599
back to global warming You mentioned how the

00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:14.699
negative impacts of fishing, I should say, most

00:37:14.699 --> 00:37:18.719
plastic in the ocean is a byproduct of those

00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:22.599
fishing operations. That is a fact that most

00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.800
people don't know about. They think it's straws,

00:37:25.940 --> 00:37:29.920
Starbucks straws. It's not. We also mentioned

00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:34.940
farming and how not all farming is livestock

00:37:34.940 --> 00:37:40.289
farming, of course, but also Most crops go to

00:37:40.289 --> 00:37:45.130
livestock, so most of the non -livestock farming

00:37:45.130 --> 00:37:48.989
that we do, the growing of crops, is not for

00:37:48.989 --> 00:37:52.829
human consumption, even though there is famine

00:37:52.829 --> 00:37:58.789
on earth. We send that to fatten the cows instead

00:37:58.789 --> 00:38:04.969
of our fellow human beings. And I guess I don't

00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:08.239
want to overlook one particular point that Jordan

00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:12.559
Peterson makes, which is that plants love CO2,

00:38:13.460 --> 00:38:19.059
and whatever CO2 emitted by humans will be counterbalanced

00:38:19.059 --> 00:38:22.880
by kind of a growth spur of plants. Well, one

00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.440
of the things that's really struck me as incomprehensible

00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:30.159
about the carbon debate is, so I know, for example,

00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:33.019
that over the last 30 years, something like that,

00:38:33.579 --> 00:38:37.420
the planet has greened quite radically, especially

00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:41.579
in semi -arid areas. And that seems to be a consequence

00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:45.039
of increased atmospheric carbon dioxide, some

00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:48.420
of which is arguably human -made. But the net

00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:50.760
consequence of that, it's so interesting to see,

00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.579
is immense green. It's something like 20 % of

00:38:54.579 --> 00:38:56.840
the Earth's area, which is like, that's a lot.

00:38:57.219 --> 00:39:00.300
And the fact that it's in semi -arid areas means

00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:03.539
that exactly the desert -like areas that we're

00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:06.219
supposed to expand, according to the climate

00:39:06.219 --> 00:39:09.679
doomsayers have actually shrunk. And then, and

00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:12.510
I've been thinking that through. Again, more

00:39:12.510 --> 00:39:15.590
recently, I talked to Patrick Moore, for example,

00:39:15.650 --> 00:39:17.550
and he was one of the founders of Greenpeace.

00:39:18.010 --> 00:39:19.889
And Moore has produced these, he's not the only

00:39:19.889 --> 00:39:21.769
one, but he's produced these graphs of carbon

00:39:21.769 --> 00:39:25.190
dioxide levels across like 500 million years

00:39:25.190 --> 00:39:28.849
instead of 250. And we're definitely at a carbon

00:39:28.849 --> 00:39:31.969
dioxide low. And so if we tap it up even a little

00:39:31.969 --> 00:39:33.989
bit, it makes a big difference. But that's all

00:39:33.989 --> 00:39:38.449
to say that plants like carbon dioxide a lot.

00:39:38.510 --> 00:39:41.789
And then when there's more of it, They grow and

00:39:41.789 --> 00:39:45.250
sequester it. You know, this was the most replayed

00:39:45.250 --> 00:39:51.869
part of his video and podcast episode. I guess

00:39:51.869 --> 00:39:56.010
people felt compelled by that argument. What

00:39:56.010 --> 00:39:58.730
do you make of it, John? Again, you know, the

00:39:58.730 --> 00:40:01.449
problem with these kinds of arguments and these

00:40:01.449 --> 00:40:05.190
kinds of platforms and podcasters is that they

00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:10.469
it's just it's spreading lies by algorithm. at

00:40:10.469 --> 00:40:12.510
the speed of light. I mean, there's a lot of

00:40:12.510 --> 00:40:15.289
literature on this by media studies people and

00:40:15.289 --> 00:40:18.070
sociologists and political scientists and others

00:40:18.070 --> 00:40:23.349
looking at the way these lies are just inundating

00:40:23.349 --> 00:40:28.929
people's media environments. So it's certainly

00:40:28.929 --> 00:40:32.670
true. I mean, there's some evidence that the

00:40:32.670 --> 00:40:35.949
more CO2 develops that that of course encourages

00:40:36.949 --> 00:40:39.889
plants who thrive in a CO2 rich environment,

00:40:40.289 --> 00:40:43.670
but there's a study in Nature in 2021 that looked

00:40:43.670 --> 00:40:45.889
into this. And so that's true, but it's also

00:40:45.889 --> 00:40:47.949
the case. And during the same period that they

00:40:47.949 --> 00:40:51.349
studied, like a 20 year period, I think, carbon

00:40:51.349 --> 00:40:55.309
emissions increased and the amount of carbon

00:40:55.309 --> 00:40:59.010
in the environment increased. So it's true that

00:40:59.010 --> 00:41:01.210
plants do sequester some carbon, but remember

00:41:01.210 --> 00:41:04.510
that animal agriculture is the greatest destroyer

00:41:04.510 --> 00:41:09.510
of of habitat and biodiversity on the earth.

00:41:10.210 --> 00:41:13.449
The rainforest in the Amazon is being burned

00:41:13.449 --> 00:41:17.769
down in order to graze cattle for JBS suppliers.

00:41:18.750 --> 00:41:22.210
So when people eat a hamburger in North America

00:41:22.210 --> 00:41:27.130
or Europe, it's possible it came from the Amazon

00:41:27.130 --> 00:41:31.369
and that's destroying the basis of life for mammals

00:41:31.369 --> 00:41:38.150
and reptiles and also in birds and so on. So

00:41:38.150 --> 00:41:41.230
the fact that plants absorb carbon dioxide and

00:41:41.230 --> 00:41:46.849
that they're absorbing more doesn't offset the

00:41:46.849 --> 00:41:51.550
overall problem, which is that the gases are

00:41:51.550 --> 00:41:53.530
building up in the atmosphere. Methane is something

00:41:53.530 --> 00:41:57.190
like 1 ,000 times more potent. I can't remember.

00:41:57.230 --> 00:41:59.230
I don't want to get misquoted. I'll just say

00:41:59.230 --> 00:42:03.309
it's many times more potent. a greenhouse gas

00:42:03.309 --> 00:42:05.489
than carbon dioxide, but it doesn't stay in the

00:42:05.489 --> 00:42:07.650
atmosphere for, you know, as long, not nearly

00:42:07.650 --> 00:42:09.750
as long. You know, carbon dioxide can be up there

00:42:09.750 --> 00:42:16.929
for centuries. So, again, it's Orwellian. I mean,

00:42:17.070 --> 00:42:20.010
my friend Troy Vitezi, the environmental historian,

00:42:20.289 --> 00:42:23.269
he and Drew Pendergrass have looked at the, done

00:42:23.269 --> 00:42:27.150
the math on this, and Troy had an article called

00:42:27.150 --> 00:42:31.869
to freeze the Thames River. which I highly recommend,

00:42:32.269 --> 00:42:37.210
and he pointed out that animal agriculture has

00:42:37.210 --> 00:42:41.030
basically deforested the earth. And if we got

00:42:41.030 --> 00:42:43.489
rid of animal agriculture and we got rid of the

00:42:43.489 --> 00:42:46.570
monocrops that are being fed to the animals so

00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:49.230
that we can then eat the animals, right, we could

00:42:49.230 --> 00:42:52.030
reforest the earth and sequester, you know, I

00:42:52.030 --> 00:42:55.969
think he said 215 gigatons of carbon that way.

00:42:55.989 --> 00:43:00.059
So it would be a natural way to geoengineer our

00:43:00.059 --> 00:43:02.239
way at least partly out of the global warming

00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:07.840
crisis. So, but you can't get there by turning

00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.260
over more land to pasture. I mean, the reason

00:43:10.260 --> 00:43:14.079
that we have quote factory farms and feed lots

00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:18.460
and so forth is simply for capitalist efficiencies.

00:43:19.139 --> 00:43:23.480
And ironically, animals raised on feed lots produce

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.320
fewer carbon emissions than ones who are grazed

00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:33.610
on land. So there's not enough land for the pasture

00:43:33.610 --> 00:43:38.190
stuff. It takes enormous amounts of water and

00:43:38.190 --> 00:43:44.110
resources, other resources. So it's ridiculous

00:43:44.110 --> 00:43:47.489
to think that the plants, by absorbing more carbon,

00:43:47.610 --> 00:43:49.449
are going to get us out of this crisis. It's

00:43:49.449 --> 00:43:58.360
simply not true. you have eyes. Again, look around

00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:03.400
you, look at your neighborhood. The few green

00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:09.519
spaces that existed have most likely been built

00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:14.519
into condos or some kind of commercial building.

00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.739
We've seen that in Canada. I've had that conversation

00:44:18.739 --> 00:44:21.340
with Liz White, the leader of the Animal Protection

00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:26.920
Party of Canada, on how we're losing all of our

00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:31.699
wetlands across Canada because we are in this,

00:44:31.699 --> 00:44:37.579
you know, home crisis. So we need to build more

00:44:37.579 --> 00:44:42.639
apartments and so on. And yet, I mean, if there

00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.780
are no plants, then how are we going to sequester

00:44:46.780 --> 00:44:51.699
all of that CO2? If it's asphalt everywhere,

00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:56.199
then you know, how are we going to go about this?

00:44:56.739 --> 00:44:58.719
Well, yeah, if I may, I just want to say that

00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.860
the nature of capitalism is to turn all of nature

00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:05.619
into a commodity. You know, the caps production

00:45:05.619 --> 00:45:08.760
is organized not around meeting human need, let

00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:11.519
alone non human need, right, but about producing

00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:14.860
profit for private companies and individuals.

00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.119
That's simply a fact. That's not, you know, shouldn't

00:45:18.119 --> 00:45:20.480
seem controversial to anyone. So the only reason

00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:26.199
that meat is produced or milk is exploited, taken

00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:29.539
from cows, is to produce profit for the companies

00:45:29.539 --> 00:45:32.019
that own them. That's the only reason. And the

00:45:32.019 --> 00:45:35.679
longer this continues, the more ecologically

00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:40.679
devastating it is. And the people are so wedded

00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:44.800
to these kinds of myths about natural human domination,

00:45:44.980 --> 00:45:47.539
the inferiority of other species, you know, we

00:45:47.539 --> 00:45:51.239
treat them as kind of between slaves and things.

00:45:51.340 --> 00:45:54.139
They're not quite things. We recognize they have

00:45:54.139 --> 00:45:59.260
something that's not like a thing, but we see

00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:02.940
them as, quote, subhuman. And so we've organized

00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:08.599
the whole global economy around that. But all

00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:11.260
that is to say, sorry, I got off my own track

00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:17.059
here that If you are going to be a free market

00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:19.260
advocate, then you have to understand that that

00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:24.219
comes with total ecological ruin of the planet.

00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:27.659
I mean, that's what's happening. All the animals

00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:30.099
on the earth are dying, reptiles, amphibians,

00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:36.199
birds, mammals, insects, all the conscious life

00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:41.119
in the oceans being removed, killed. killed off

00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.340
and that's because of the profit motive and not

00:46:43.340 --> 00:46:45.559
just the profit motive but the very dynamics

00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:48.400
of the capitalist system which require through

00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:53.380
competition of a racist cannibalization of the

00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:56.820
earth's resources. So the idea of sustainable

00:46:56.820 --> 00:47:00.599
capitalism that is an oxymoron. It's just, we

00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:02.739
have the facts. People talk about regulating

00:47:02.739 --> 00:47:04.300
capitalism. What are they talking about? We've

00:47:04.300 --> 00:47:07.239
had 500 years of efforts to regulate capitalism,

00:47:07.340 --> 00:47:10.280
actually, in one way or another, and it hasn't

00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:14.980
worked, can't work. So, but it's so bizarre.

00:47:15.099 --> 00:47:17.159
I mean, people will go down with this ship. They

00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:20.940
really will, clinging to some, like Peterson,

00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:26.400
great example, clinging to some reactionary conception

00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.409
of masculinity. He'll go down with that ship,

00:47:29.469 --> 00:47:32.389
you know, you can show him that it's, it's bad

00:47:32.389 --> 00:47:36.070
in a million ways, but no, and I got to have

00:47:36.070 --> 00:47:38.570
my meat and that's part of my masculinity. And,

00:47:38.570 --> 00:47:41.929
you know, so the earth dies, it's the earth is

00:47:41.929 --> 00:47:44.230
being swept with droughts and floods and fires

00:47:44.230 --> 00:47:48.309
and category five storms and typhoons. And, you

00:47:48.309 --> 00:47:54.789
know, but the propaganda system is so intense

00:47:54.789 --> 00:47:58.519
and intensive and growing that people can't see

00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:01.159
outside it. I find it really frightening. And

00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:02.860
here in the US, of course, we find the growth

00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:06.980
of this fascist populist right -wing authoritarian

00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:10.280
movement that is part and parcel of domination

00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:13.900
of all vulnerable groups, from non -human animals

00:48:13.900 --> 00:48:17.760
to immigrants to trans people to women. And it's

00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:20.980
all of a whole cloth. All of these threads come

00:48:20.980 --> 00:48:26.260
together in one web of domination. And the space

00:48:26.260 --> 00:48:29.530
for dissent like this conversation, the space

00:48:29.530 --> 00:48:32.070
for dissent at the university is shrinking, it's

00:48:32.070 --> 00:48:37.409
narrowing constantly. So yeah, I mean, Jordan

00:48:37.409 --> 00:48:42.090
Peterson found fame because of his defense of

00:48:42.090 --> 00:48:46.769
free speech. Now, animal rights activists are

00:48:47.210 --> 00:48:51.309
persecuted in Canada. We have ag -gag laws passing

00:48:51.309 --> 00:48:55.150
at a provincial and federal level to just, you

00:48:55.150 --> 00:49:00.369
know, shut us up forever. And you know, I did

00:49:00.369 --> 00:49:05.909
not see him bravely taking the defense of animal

00:49:05.909 --> 00:49:09.389
rights activists, talking about how this is such

00:49:09.389 --> 00:49:14.309
a blatant violation of free speech and of democratic

00:49:14.309 --> 00:49:18.599
values in Canada. Yet it is and there's nothing

00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:25.380
equating that I mean if you apply the same standards

00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:28.760
to let's say investigative journalists the world

00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:34.920
would be in in fire fire of outrage and It's

00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.219
not you know, because we're talking about vegans

00:49:37.219 --> 00:49:40.739
vegans who want to share images of what's happening

00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:44.159
inside slaughterhouses and they can't they can't

00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:50.849
and they risk like heavy prison sentences because

00:49:50.849 --> 00:49:55.630
of that and Yeah, here he is talking about pronouns

00:49:55.630 --> 00:49:58.429
and how there are laws, you know compelling Canadians

00:49:58.429 --> 00:50:01.989
to use pronouns. Well What about that other part?

00:50:02.329 --> 00:50:05.650
What about that other infringement on free speech?

00:50:05.650 --> 00:50:11.349
Are we not going to address it? But I after watching

00:50:11.349 --> 00:50:15.750
that conversation I I really felt like Well,

00:50:15.829 --> 00:50:19.690
first of all, Joel Saliton makes the point that

00:50:19.690 --> 00:50:26.150
his one goal as a businessman is to please his

00:50:26.150 --> 00:50:29.849
clientele. No sale is an end to itself. Every

00:50:29.849 --> 00:50:32.650
sale is a springboard for the next sale. Right,

00:50:32.789 --> 00:50:35.510
of course. You cannot stay in business finding

00:50:35.510 --> 00:50:39.110
new customers. The only way you stay in business

00:50:39.110 --> 00:50:43.130
is to please the customers you have. enough that

00:50:43.130 --> 00:50:45.809
they buzz and tell people about it and bring

00:50:45.809 --> 00:50:47.369
them back to you. And that's a long -term relationship.

00:50:47.550 --> 00:50:49.670
That's akin to a friendship relationship. You

00:50:49.670 --> 00:50:51.190
don't want to play with someone once. Which is

00:50:51.190 --> 00:50:54.369
why you don't want to irritate somebody at your

00:50:54.369 --> 00:50:56.090
lectures or your presentations. Yeah, because

00:50:56.090 --> 00:50:58.710
they're already in the camp. They're the last

00:50:58.710 --> 00:51:00.849
people you want to irritate. Exactly, exactly.

00:51:01.289 --> 00:51:03.590
They've done all the work coming to you. You

00:51:03.590 --> 00:51:05.929
need to do backflips to make them happy. And

00:51:05.929 --> 00:51:09.070
so how can you trust someone who has been captured

00:51:09.070 --> 00:51:14.519
by, you know, monetary interests like that. That's

00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:18.000
my first point. He's not an independent voice.

00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:22.059
And then I want to know if this was an advertisement

00:51:22.059 --> 00:51:29.860
for polyphase form. I think it's most likely

00:51:29.860 --> 00:51:37.679
the case that he had a deal with Daily Wire or

00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:41.420
the Jordan Peterson podcast to appear and promote

00:51:41.420 --> 00:51:48.239
his farm through a conversation. I feel strongly

00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.659
that it might be the case. You know, I don't

00:51:51.659 --> 00:51:54.639
know enough about Peterson. I know as much as

00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:56.980
I want to know. But I didn't realize that he'd

00:51:56.980 --> 00:51:59.719
gotten his start supposedly defending free speech.

00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:04.239
But it is interesting the way that that discourse

00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:08.400
is being used by the far right, Charlie Kirk

00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.760
being another example. And basically under the

00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:13.960
banner of free speech, what they're doing is

00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.539
what Kirk was doing and what Peterson is still

00:52:16.539 --> 00:52:19.500
doing is making room for hate speech. So when

00:52:19.500 --> 00:52:21.760
Elon Musk talks about free speech, that's what

00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:23.480
it means. Because originally the idea of free

00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:27.860
speech was actually to create a space for dissent

00:52:27.860 --> 00:52:33.840
against absolutist monarchs or repressive states.

00:52:34.420 --> 00:52:38.460
But now, what when people hear the word or say

00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:40.719
the word, the term free speech, what they really

00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:45.320
mean is, we want to be able to use speech as

00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:48.800
a weapon as part of a project of denying civil

00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:51.980
and human rights to, you know, vulnerable groups

00:52:51.980 --> 00:52:55.820
of people. That's what they mean by free speech.

00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:58.760
It's not about freeing speech, it's about freeing

00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:03.170
hate, misogyny, racism, And there are certain

00:53:03.170 --> 00:53:06.650
forms of speech that we should not engage in.

00:53:06.809 --> 00:53:09.150
I'm not talking about state laws, necessarily.

00:53:09.269 --> 00:53:12.210
That's a different issue, whether the state had

00:53:12.210 --> 00:53:17.489
interest in censoring or monitoring speech. I'm

00:53:17.489 --> 00:53:20.230
saying that I should not engage in speech that's

00:53:20.230 --> 00:53:23.190
hurtful to others, whether it's my kid or some

00:53:23.190 --> 00:53:26.769
group. But that falls out. I just wanted to stay

00:53:26.769 --> 00:53:32.019
of the picture completely. Yeah, so I guess the

00:53:32.019 --> 00:53:35.199
question is, what do we do about all of this?

00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:38.420
And now I'm going to turn the tables on my interviewer

00:53:38.420 --> 00:53:43.320
and ask, what's the solution to this? I don't

00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:47.239
have the solution to this. I'm a simple podcaster,

00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:51.780
but, you know, I think having this conversation

00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:56.800
already, you know, and discussing this publicly

00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:01.000
for the sake of free speech, you know, and I

00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:03.940
I invite Jordan Peterson or his people to invite

00:54:03.940 --> 00:54:08.880
you or invite Liam Gray if you want someone who's

00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:12.519
more conservative but shares our ideal of a vegan

00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:20.559
world on your podcast. Expose yourself to different

00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:25.159
opposing views. What's the harm in that? And

00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:32.380
so I challenge him to do that. I want to end

00:54:32.380 --> 00:54:36.400
this conversation with an important point. You

00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:40.199
mentioned how, you know, there is animals are

00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:44.519
treated often as slaves and perceived as such,

00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:48.780
you know, as objects by those people, those farmers.

00:54:50.199 --> 00:55:00.150
Now, Jordan and Joel Saliton agreed in that conversation,

00:55:00.650 --> 00:55:04.150
that animals are smart and are sensitive. A few

00:55:04.150 --> 00:55:08.570
examples, Joel mentions how rotating electric

00:55:08.570 --> 00:55:15.309
fences, so he uses that to replace herding. How

00:55:15.309 --> 00:55:20.909
cows are shocked by those electric fences and

00:55:20.909 --> 00:55:24.170
hate that and learn from that experience that

00:55:24.170 --> 00:55:28.329
they should not approach the fences. Okay, so

00:55:28.329 --> 00:55:30.610
now the problem comes down to essentially how

00:55:30.610 --> 00:55:32.929
do you move the cattle, right? That's okay. Yeah,

00:55:32.969 --> 00:55:38.170
so so we move the so We move the cows every day

00:55:38.170 --> 00:55:40.909
around four o 'clock We like the afternoon move

00:55:40.909 --> 00:55:44.730
best for a number of reasons, but it's electric

00:55:44.730 --> 00:55:46.730
fence one strand of electric fence cows are very

00:55:46.730 --> 00:55:49.409
smart They they don't want to get shocked and

00:55:49.409 --> 00:55:54.070
so we just go out and and open open a cross fence

00:55:54.070 --> 00:55:59.159
So imagine a ladder with rungs And so our permanent

00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:02.239
wires, our permanent fence, is the stringers

00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:06.199
on the outside. Our portables are the rungs on

00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:09.559
the inside. And we can expand and contract those

00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:11.860
based on how big the herd is, how much grass

00:56:11.860 --> 00:56:15.519
there is. Then later Joel and Jordan agree that

00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:19.780
animals learn quickly and love keeping a routine.

00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:23.579
And then they make the point that it's just like

00:56:23.579 --> 00:56:26.739
any other human being out there. The beauty is

00:56:27.279 --> 00:56:31.719
that in no time, the cows respond to you coming.

00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:34.199
I mean, think about your dog or your cat. When

00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:38.079
you bang the dish, they come running. They know

00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:41.800
what that is. Well, the cows, when we go out

00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:43.739
to move them, roughly, you know, we try to do

00:56:43.739 --> 00:56:47.159
it as close to four as possible. You know, if

00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:49.659
you got called every day at four o 'clock for

00:56:49.659 --> 00:56:52.739
a bowl of ice cream, about 3 .45, you know, your

00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:55.159
tail would wag and your ears would wiggle too.

00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:58.539
And so the cows are ready, and we go out, and

00:56:58.539 --> 00:57:01.219
we just call them, come on, cows! And they just

00:57:01.219 --> 00:57:03.480
come running through. We close behind them. Why

00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:05.719
do they? Because they know the food will be better?

00:57:05.940 --> 00:57:08.079
Because, yes, because they've got a new salad

00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:09.219
bar. OK, so they've learned that. They've got

00:57:09.219 --> 00:57:11.519
a new salad bar. They've learned that. It doesn't

00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:13.219
take them long to learn that. They learn that

00:57:13.219 --> 00:57:16.070
very, very quickly. And so you don't have to

00:57:16.070 --> 00:57:18.309
herd them. Another advantage to doing it the

00:57:18.309 --> 00:57:20.309
same time every day because you establish a habit

00:57:20.309 --> 00:57:21.989
with the cows. Animals love routine. Animals

00:57:21.989 --> 00:57:24.510
love routine. So do people as it turns out. Yes.

00:57:24.570 --> 00:57:27.409
Even though they think they don't. Yeah. Oh no,

00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:30.670
we are creatures of routines. And then again,

00:57:31.510 --> 00:57:35.230
Jordan discusses the experiments of BF Skinner.

00:57:35.409 --> 00:57:38.070
Now they're talking about marketing and how their

00:57:38.070 --> 00:57:41.630
marketing meets to people. And he explains how

00:57:41.679 --> 00:57:46.300
those experiments that Skinner did on animals,

00:57:47.619 --> 00:57:51.179
the same conclusions apply with humans. There's

00:57:51.179 --> 00:57:54.900
a famous psychologist, B .F. Skinner, and B .F.

00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:57.719
Skinner was the father of reinforcement learning

00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:01.360
theory, and that's a big deal. These large language

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:04.119
models, these new AI systems, they're trained

00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:06.300
with reinforcement theory. So like this was a

00:58:06.300 --> 00:58:08.619
major deal, and B .F. Skinner was a master of

00:58:08.619 --> 00:58:13.030
this, and he could... He, in World War II, he

00:58:13.030 --> 00:58:15.769
trained pigeons to guide missiles by pecking

00:58:15.769 --> 00:58:18.789
on photographs as they were flying across the

00:58:18.789 --> 00:58:21.010
sky, right? So Skinner could train animals to

00:58:21.010 --> 00:58:24.489
do anything. Now, he noted that you could use

00:58:24.489 --> 00:58:26.630
threat and punishment to shape an animal's behavior,

00:58:26.690 --> 00:58:29.289
but the best thing to use was targeted reward.

00:58:29.610 --> 00:58:32.170
And so what he would do is his animals were hungry,

00:58:32.329 --> 00:58:35.130
because they had to be motivated to work for

00:58:35.130 --> 00:58:38.090
food pellets. And so he'd have a hungry animal,

00:58:38.819 --> 00:58:40.860
Maybe you're trying, so imagine there's a rat

00:58:40.860 --> 00:58:43.780
in a cage and there's a little ladder and you

00:58:43.780 --> 00:58:46.880
want the rat to go up on the ladder and then

00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:48.599
walk across and go down the other side. It's

00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:51.000
pretty complicated behavior. So here's how Skinner

00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:53.699
would do it. He would just watch that rat and

00:58:53.699 --> 00:58:56.260
as soon as it got near, as soon as it made a

00:58:56.260 --> 00:58:58.380
move near the ladder, he'd give it a food pellet.

00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:00.199
Then it would start hanging around the ladder.

00:59:00.619 --> 00:59:02.400
And when it was hanging around close to the bottom

00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:04.360
of the ladder, now and then it would put a paw

00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:06.480
up. and he'd give it a food pellet. And then

00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:08.500
now the rat was doing this quite a bit, and then

00:59:08.500 --> 00:59:12.179
now and then it would do this, food pellet. But

00:59:12.179 --> 00:59:16.119
the key issue was that he was observing, and

00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:19.199
then when he got an increment of behavior in

00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:22.500
the direction he wanted, he signified that. Well,

00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:23.980
that's what you're doing with your customers,

00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:27.079
is you're paying very careful attention, and

00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:29.280
then one of your customers does something that

00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:32.869
you'd really like them to do more of. You notice

00:59:32.869 --> 00:59:36.070
yeah, you tell them you reward them for it and

00:59:36.070 --> 00:59:40.210
then now this and so Why is there such disconnect?

00:59:40.789 --> 00:59:43.829
How can they accept that animals are sentient

00:59:43.829 --> 00:59:47.349
and intelligent? But then they will eat them

00:59:47.349 --> 00:59:50.489
exploit them kill them. Well, thank you Yeah,

00:59:50.489 --> 00:59:52.329
I think first of all, you know I begin with the

00:59:52.329 --> 00:59:54.650
last thing you mentioned which is the reference

00:59:54.650 --> 00:59:57.570
to BF Skinner is quite telling because BF Skinner

00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:00.800
I mean, that's almost a sense that Joel Salatin

01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:05.199
and Jordan Peterson are ignorant men, ignorant

01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:09.760
people who have no real understanding of the

01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:13.500
science of cognitive ethology or what we now

01:00:13.500 --> 01:00:16.659
know about animal cognition and complexity of

01:00:16.659 --> 01:00:21.190
feeling. So they make these gestures towards

01:00:21.190 --> 01:00:24.110
acknowledging a continuity between humans and

01:00:24.110 --> 01:00:27.329
non -human beings. But it's superficial, because

01:00:27.329 --> 01:00:29.769
if they were to really sit with that, and if

01:00:29.769 --> 01:00:33.110
they were to understand the research, then they

01:00:33.110 --> 01:00:35.989
would know, going back to Darwin in Descent of

01:00:35.989 --> 01:00:42.389
Man in 1871, that we are fundamentally like the

01:00:42.389 --> 01:00:46.760
other beings. So their psychologies are much

01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:49.159
more complex than they understand. They just

01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:52.440
understand it in terms of being clever, smart.

01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:56.480
And then as you say, there's this really sinister

01:00:56.480 --> 01:00:58.940
thing going on where they acknowledge that these

01:00:58.940 --> 01:01:02.699
are beings with consciousness of some kind, and

01:01:02.699 --> 01:01:05.219
yet they're using torture devices against them.

01:01:05.420 --> 01:01:07.340
They're committing acts of extreme violence and

01:01:07.340 --> 01:01:10.579
aggression against them. They see them as worthless.

01:01:11.079 --> 01:01:14.099
and don't let anyone who participates in the

01:01:14.099 --> 01:01:16.900
meat economy tell you otherwise because if you're

01:01:16.900 --> 01:01:20.800
going to advocate the killing of trillions and

01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.860
trillions of animals forever not even just like

01:01:23.860 --> 01:01:26.320
anything about soliton is apart from the thousands

01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:29.380
of animals he personally kills he's advocating

01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:32.840
a system that will supposedly be in pit place

01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:34.960
i suppose to the second coming since he's a born

01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:38.280
-again christian evangelical you know he's he

01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:43.210
wants us to be doing engaging in these practices

01:01:43.210 --> 01:01:46.909
of violence for time and memorials. So trillions,

01:01:47.090 --> 01:01:49.630
what, quadrillions of animals are to die for

01:01:49.630 --> 01:01:55.690
what? For profit, for his own sense of himself

01:01:55.690 --> 01:02:03.710
as a white man with a commitment to reactionary

01:02:03.710 --> 01:02:06.730
and anachronistic ideals of natural hierarchy.

01:02:07.090 --> 01:02:10.190
That's really what it's about. And so underlying

01:02:10.190 --> 01:02:15.130
this whole thing that these two guys massaging

01:02:15.130 --> 01:02:18.929
each other's egos, you have a fundamental contempt

01:02:18.929 --> 01:02:23.469
for other life forms. You can't love what you

01:02:23.469 --> 01:02:25.949
seek to destroy. And what I argue in my book

01:02:25.949 --> 01:02:27.730
and what you believe and other people believe

01:02:27.730 --> 01:02:30.670
who've looked at this issue is that other animals

01:02:30.670 --> 01:02:35.210
are worthy of our love. Now that may sound like

01:02:35.210 --> 01:02:38.489
sentimental or something, but You know the people

01:02:38.489 --> 01:02:41.170
in this country millions of whom have cats and

01:02:41.170 --> 01:02:45.289
dogs Those folks who aren't vegetarians or vegans

01:02:45.289 --> 01:02:47.909
the vast majority of cats and dogs dog people,

01:02:47.909 --> 01:02:50.869
right? They understand that their cat or dog

01:02:50.869 --> 01:02:53.909
is a being worthy of life worthy of their experiences

01:02:53.909 --> 01:02:59.130
and interests and needs and that we they They're

01:02:59.130 --> 01:03:03.150
very being calls upon us for empathy compassion

01:03:03.150 --> 01:03:06.570
and help like like in building a life together

01:03:06.670 --> 01:03:10.710
That insight is completely absent from the kinds

01:03:10.710 --> 01:03:14.070
of ridiculous conversations we just saw between

01:03:14.070 --> 01:03:18.070
Peterson and Soliton. They're intellectually

01:03:18.070 --> 01:03:22.570
dishonest and they're immoral. They are literally

01:03:22.570 --> 01:03:26.570
advocating mass violence against completely defenseless,

01:03:26.969 --> 01:03:31.269
lovely beings who do not deserve it. They're

01:03:31.269 --> 01:03:35.210
not worthless beings. That completely drops out.

01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:37.940
of the conversation, and that's what we need

01:03:37.940 --> 01:03:42.340
to keep going to the public about. It's not about

01:03:42.340 --> 01:03:44.900
sustainability. Even if it was the case that

01:03:44.900 --> 01:03:47.780
you could say that regenerative animal agriculture

01:03:47.780 --> 01:03:51.280
was not ecologically damaging, so what? It's

01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:56.460
still not right. It's still fundamentally evil,

01:03:57.360 --> 01:04:00.699
and especially in the face of nonviolent alternatives

01:04:00.699 --> 01:04:06.579
like vegan farming. And go to the vegan agriculture

01:04:06.579 --> 01:04:09.940
network. People can go to there and see the resources

01:04:09.940 --> 01:04:12.300
that vegan farmers are sharing with one another.

01:04:12.420 --> 01:04:15.320
It's perfectly possible to have farming without

01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:19.940
pesticides, without artificial fertilizers, without

01:04:19.940 --> 01:04:23.980
animal inputs of any kind. And if you doubt it,

01:04:24.019 --> 01:04:26.340
go into your backyard garden and look what you're

01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:28.840
doing. You can actually grow things in the ground.

01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:31.440
Without any of these things without synthetic

01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:34.420
fertilizer and without animal inputs, you know

01:04:34.420 --> 01:04:38.860
Yeah, I said one last point but can I just ask

01:04:38.860 --> 01:04:42.800
it one more question? Sure. I don't want to you

01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:45.159
know, take too much of your time. I know we scheduled

01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:51.760
for one hour You mentioned Purdue I think when

01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:56.780
Purdue looks at Salatin they think Hey, he doesn't

01:04:56.780 --> 01:05:01.570
know it but he's actually one of our best advertisers

01:05:01.570 --> 01:05:07.610
because he will give an appetite to people for

01:05:07.610 --> 01:05:12.489
animal products and then we will be the one responding

01:05:12.489 --> 01:05:15.050
to that demand because again it's not scalable

01:05:15.050 --> 01:05:21.449
his business model and also we can do our own

01:05:21.449 --> 01:05:25.099
marketing. and use the same arguments that he's

01:05:25.099 --> 01:05:30.039
using and tell people our lies about how humane

01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:34.019
are treated, you know, our chickens and so on.

01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:38.559
So do you agree with that? Absolutely, absolutely.

01:05:38.739 --> 01:05:40.800
This whole, you know, my book is partly about

01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:44.000
this new discourse of omnivorism, the enlightened

01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:47.920
omnivore, or the locovore, the carnal locovore.

01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:52.119
all of that stuff, which poses itself as a so

01:05:52.119 --> 01:05:56.159
-called alternative to the main animal economy.

01:05:56.760 --> 01:05:59.539
It's an appendage of the animal economy. And

01:05:59.539 --> 01:06:02.860
what it does is, exactly as you say it, wets

01:06:02.860 --> 01:06:05.719
the appetite of consumers. It makes them feel

01:06:05.719 --> 01:06:09.099
good about eating animals and animal products.

01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:12.420
It papers over the fundamental violence and inequality

01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:16.420
and suffering at the basis of it. It strengthens,

01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:19.579
therefore strengthens the chain of the larger

01:06:19.579 --> 01:06:23.639
animal economy by legitimating the system by

01:06:23.639 --> 01:06:28.159
saying in every advertisement, the implied argument

01:06:28.159 --> 01:06:34.900
is animal agriculture has been done in ways that

01:06:34.900 --> 01:06:36.780
aren't great. So we're going to make it great

01:06:36.780 --> 01:06:40.380
again, make agriculture great again. There's

01:06:40.380 --> 01:06:46.410
your MAGA moment. And it was never great. So

01:06:46.410 --> 01:06:48.670
that's such an important insight, what you just

01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:52.230
said, and it's completely, completely true. And

01:06:52.230 --> 01:06:53.670
there have actually been studies that have shown

01:06:53.670 --> 01:06:56.909
that people who seek out or consume, quote, high

01:06:56.909 --> 01:07:01.329
welfare meat are less likely than other consumers

01:07:01.329 --> 01:07:04.690
to become vegetarian or vegan. It makes sense.

01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:08.619
You know you care maybe you care enough about

01:07:08.619 --> 01:07:11.059
the environment you care enough about quote animal

01:07:11.059 --> 01:07:14.059
welfare That you are willing to pay a few dollars

01:07:14.059 --> 01:07:16.519
more for the product But what you don't want

01:07:16.519 --> 01:07:19.099
to do is to question the system You don't want

01:07:19.099 --> 01:07:22.639
to question your complicity in an injustice and

01:07:22.639 --> 01:07:25.000
this gets you off the hook again I think that

01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:26.920
the true significance even though this is you

01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:29.199
know hundred there were hundreds of millions

01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:33.199
of dollars Bound up with you know, the whole

01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:36.119
foods organic meat market and so forth. That's

01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:40.159
like a piddling amount with the real strategic

01:07:40.159 --> 01:07:43.840
function of all this is to stabilize the wider

01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:46.820
global meat economy, whether people know it or

01:07:46.820 --> 01:07:49.639
not, the ones like Temple Grandin. Grandin is

01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:53.280
a great example because she's the ligature that

01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.340
brings together the smaller farming and organic

01:07:56.340 --> 01:07:58.400
farming operations with the big factory farming

01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:00.760
operations. She consults to everybody. She doesn't

01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:03.539
care, really. She certainly doesn't care about

01:08:03.539 --> 01:08:07.159
the animals. But as long as people like Temple

01:08:07.159 --> 01:08:09.400
Grand and Michael Pollan and Joel Soliton exist,

01:08:09.460 --> 01:08:12.099
people will think that everything is more or

01:08:12.099 --> 01:08:14.900
less okay, or we're on the right track. But there

01:08:14.900 --> 01:08:18.800
is no good track for exploiting and killing other

01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:23.739
beings. Simply simply isn't. So yeah, Jordan

01:08:23.739 --> 01:08:28.119
Peterson, you said that eating plants shrinks

01:08:28.119 --> 01:08:31.140
your brain. I think John's is the proof that

01:08:31.140 --> 01:08:36.659
it's not true. And also, Einstein was vegetarian.

01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:39.680
Da Vinci was vegetarian. I mean, you could go

01:08:39.680 --> 01:08:45.020
on and on about how many smart geniuses were

01:08:45.020 --> 01:08:48.060
eating plants and not eating meat. I don't know

01:08:48.060 --> 01:08:50.560
where this is coming from, the brain shrinking

01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:53.979
thing. I get that sometime in the comments of

01:08:53.979 --> 01:08:58.340
social media. Honestly, yeah again, it's just

01:08:58.340 --> 01:09:02.939
an outright lie. It's a bald -faced lie and I've

01:09:02.939 --> 01:09:06.060
been a vegan for 40 years and that and certainly

01:09:06.060 --> 01:09:09.479
I Don't know. Maybe my brain is smaller than

01:09:09.479 --> 01:09:12.720
I know and my mind is Stupider than it thinks

01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:15.439
I'm willing to grant that but as you say Leonardo

01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:18.260
da Vinci great example, right is considered one

01:09:18.260 --> 01:09:22.090
of the you know I don't know, top two or three

01:09:22.090 --> 01:09:24.369
brightest humans that ever lived. And yes, as

01:09:24.369 --> 01:09:26.250
you point out, he was an ethical vegetarian.

01:09:27.529 --> 01:09:29.649
And there are, and similarly in terms of the

01:09:29.649 --> 01:09:30.970
health stuff, as you know, there are all these

01:09:30.970 --> 01:09:33.369
high performance athletes like Venus Williams

01:09:33.369 --> 01:09:41.050
or Honal the free solo rock climber and just

01:09:41.050 --> 01:09:43.390
all these high performance athletes, some of

01:09:43.390 --> 01:09:45.590
the best in the world, Djokovic, the best male

01:09:45.590 --> 01:09:47.590
tennis player perhaps in history, whether we

01:09:47.590 --> 01:09:52.510
like him or not. who have tremendous athleticism.

01:09:52.909 --> 01:09:55.029
Science is all on our side about nutrition, as

01:09:55.029 --> 01:09:57.729
you know. I mean, that vegans have lower rates

01:09:57.729 --> 01:10:00.210
of heart disease, stroke, cardiovascular diseases

01:10:00.210 --> 01:10:04.909
in general, type 2 diabetes. And in fact, as

01:10:04.909 --> 01:10:07.810
an article, I think in JAMA, Journal of the American

01:10:07.810 --> 01:10:10.869
Medical Association just a few years ago, recently

01:10:10.869 --> 01:10:14.850
that vegans live longer than so -called omnivores.

01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:19.020
Now, you know, as an ethicist, I would argue

01:10:19.020 --> 01:10:21.239
that even if it was the reverse, even if there

01:10:21.239 --> 01:10:23.760
were slightly better health outcomes from eating

01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:27.960
animal products, no, it doesn't justify mass

01:10:27.960 --> 01:10:31.819
violence against trillions of beings, you know,

01:10:31.819 --> 01:10:35.340
just so I can get my omega threes or whatever.

01:10:35.340 --> 01:10:38.439
It's just absurd. But luckily, as I say, the

01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:41.260
science is actually in the other direction that

01:10:41.260 --> 01:10:46.489
people who eat a balanced vegan diet Do better

01:10:46.489 --> 01:10:51.449
in all of these all these things. So Yeah, topsy

01:10:51.449 --> 01:10:54.210
-turvy world. That's the bottom line here folks

01:10:54.210 --> 01:10:57.449
is that we live in an Orwellian world and it's

01:10:57.449 --> 01:10:59.750
it's up to us to break through it and and try

01:10:59.750 --> 01:11:05.989
to bring people to to their senses Yes, I'm nicely

01:11:05.989 --> 01:11:08.729
push and to go back to your question. What do

01:11:08.729 --> 01:11:13.890
we do? Well, I've been thinking, you know I believe

01:11:13.890 --> 01:11:16.909
there is I believe more and more there's a division

01:11:16.909 --> 01:11:21.770
in society of people who believe the end justifies

01:11:21.770 --> 01:11:25.829
the means and those who have moral principles.

01:11:26.670 --> 01:11:30.310
And I'm not in the camp of those who believe

01:11:30.310 --> 01:11:32.989
that the end justified the means. I'm really

01:11:32.989 --> 01:11:36.869
not. Um, and so whatever you decide to do, do

01:11:36.869 --> 01:11:39.869
it in a ethical way. If you want to protest,

01:11:39.949 --> 01:11:43.210
protest peacefully. If you want to, you know,

01:11:43.489 --> 01:11:47.649
oppose their views, do it with intelligence and

01:11:47.649 --> 01:11:50.770
thoughtfulness and in line with your principles.

01:11:51.649 --> 01:11:53.789
Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. I, when

01:11:53.789 --> 01:11:55.430
I see these things or hear about these things

01:11:55.430 --> 01:11:57.470
like the Jordan Peterson thing, I get so upset.

01:11:57.689 --> 01:12:00.539
I can't even deal with it. So it's good. Do you

01:12:00.539 --> 01:12:02.399
do something productive with that, you know?

01:12:02.560 --> 01:12:04.899
But I was gonna say that if you decided you wanted

01:12:04.899 --> 01:12:08.159
to do another episode on this thing, I would

01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:12.119
ask Vasily Stanescu onto the show because he's

01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:15.420
the world authority, vegan authority on regenerative

01:12:15.420 --> 01:12:17.619
animal agriculture and piercing these myths.

01:12:17.659 --> 01:12:20.680
And he's got the facts at his fingertips. Of

01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:25.100
course, I would love to have Vasily since having

01:12:25.100 --> 01:12:28.970
watched that. famous infamous debate about cultivated

01:12:28.970 --> 01:12:32.149
meat, you know, I've been exposed to him. So

01:12:32.149 --> 01:12:35.369
I absolutely do not do not know him. No, no,

01:12:35.369 --> 01:12:38.149
I don't know him. I'm happy to make introductions

01:12:38.149 --> 01:12:40.210
if that would be helpful. Thank you so much,

01:12:40.350 --> 01:12:43.090
John. Thank you. Well, best of luck. And we will

01:12:43.090 --> 01:12:45.810
we will meet again. But in the meantime, thank

01:12:45.810 --> 01:12:49.770
you so much again. And just hope we can make

01:12:49.770 --> 01:12:52.189
a little progress here and there, I guess. Of

01:12:52.189 --> 01:12:55.619
course, let's be optimistic and positive. I'll

01:12:55.619 --> 01:12:58.439
let you hold the hope in this relationship. I

01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:03.260
have enough to share. Good, good. Thank you everyone

01:13:03.260 --> 01:13:06.420
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this

01:13:06.420 --> 01:13:09.300
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage

01:13:09.300 --> 01:13:13.239
more people to take action. Again, thank you

01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:16.239
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday

01:13:16.239 --> 01:13:17.659
for a new episode.