Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and welcome to
The Vegan Report. Today we talk about sharing
our vegan diets with the cats and dogs in our
life. I have a cat. She is old, has been with
me since before I was vegan, since high school.
I was thinking of her during this conversation.
I care a lot about her. and that means being
very careful about what I feed her. And I don't
know about you, but I have been reluctant to
feed her a vegan diet. So for me, this conversation
was a chance to question the science and studies
behind vegan cat food. But this was also a chance
to ask, are we offsetting the good of adopting
dogs and cats from shelters by feeding them dead
chickens and cows? Why is the animal rights world
so behind on addressing the issue of pet food
diets? Is the word pet offensive? And much more.
To discuss this topic I have with me Billy Nichols.
Billy is a researcher specializing in the pet
food protein transition. He is based at Bryant
Research, a UK research consultancy specializing
in the protein transition, where he conducts
research related to pet diets with a focus on
the environmental impacts of meat -based and
vegan pet foods. He has published on the sustainability
of pet diets and on consumer attitudes towards
alternative proteins. He was also formerly a
founder's associate at Omni, one of the UK's
leading vegan pet food companies. To learn more
about Billy and his great work, visit the episode
notes. And as always, if you appreciate this
type of conversations, follow or subscribe to
the podcast for more. Please support the podcast
by sharing it with your fellow vegans, with your
friends and family. Leave a good review. Every
gesture counts. Thank you. Okay, so Billy, thank
you so much for having accepted my invitation.
Welcome to The Vegan Report. Thank you very much,
Ryan. It's a pleasure to be here. Glad to be
on the show. So I want to start with a question
I had in mind for this week, this entire week,
as I was thinking about the conversation we were
about to have. Cats are carnivorous creatures,
and I feel deeply uncomfortable in feeding my
cat a vegan diet. What do you make of you know,
what is this the state of research around that
issue and why do I feel so? Hesitant in feeding
my cat a vegan diet Brilliant. I love this way.
We're going straight into the deep end. This
is really the sort of big probably most controversial
question in the Pet food protein transition the
vegan pet food space So let's get right into
it. It's worth saying Why would we think about
this in the first place, right? There's got to
be motivations for this. And there's quite a
few when it comes to the diets of our dogs and
cats. I'm sure we'll get into it, but dogs and
cats consume a lot of meat. There's ethical implications
there. There's environmental implications, obviously,
that go with it. But on top of that, there's
growing body of evidence to show that there's
health implications with the current meat -based
diets that our dogs and cats are eating. So there
we go. There's some motivation similar to the
human space for a transition. That's motivated.
guardians, another word for owners. So that's
motivated dog and cat guardians to think about
a transition and whether that's possible. And
it's also motivated researchers like myself and
others to think about the implications of feeding
our dogs and cats vegan diets. So let's start
with cats, as you say, I'm interested and thrilled
to hear that you feel inconvertible, perhaps
by the end of this conversation, you might feel
slightly differently. There's a premise here
before we get to the research when it comes to
transitioning dogs and cats onto vegan diets.
And we'll start, as you say, with cats. Cats
are obligate carnivores. That's correct. What
does obligate carnivore mean? It means that they
require certain nutrients that aren't typically
found in plant -based sources. They're typically
found in animal -based sources. These are things
like taurine, vitamin A, to name a couple. And
so in the wild, cats certainly would need to
eat these meat -based ingredients in order to
thrive. and receive the nutrients that they need
to survive and thrive. However, there's a sort
of specificity here that's worth remembering.
The fact that they're obligate carnivores is
based on the premise that they need certain nutrients
that typically come from animal -based sources.
That doesn't mean that they need the ingredients
that you will usually find those nutrients in.
Right. It just means they need those nutrients.
So then the question becomes, can we find those
nutrients from sources other than animal products
in the wild? No. Right. You're basically getting
these from from animal flesh, animal flesh, animal
protein, or the cat is probably going to survive.
But we're obviously quite a way away from these
wild environments when it comes to domesticated
dogs and cats now. And certainly most of the
pet foods that we feed to our dogs and cats.
are synthetically substituted with some of these
nutrients, taurine, vitamin A to name a couple.
So actually you can synthetically create these
nutrients that typically animals and you know
cats would would require meat to get. You can
now synthetically substitute them with no animals
required so there's the premise right there's
the premise for feeding a cat a vegan diet you
can obtain the same nutrients that cats need
that were you know were necessary from meat from
synthetic sources and you can supplement them
into a diet much in the same way that humans
will supplement say b12 into their diet usually
there's the premise the next thing you asked
was well what do we know what does the research
say right and the research for cats i would described
so far as positive, and we'd like more of it.
Right. So we've got three studies looking at
the health impacts of cats fed vegan versus meat
based diets. All three of those studies so far
show that cats fed vegan diets will have health
outcomes on average as good as or better than
those on meat based diets. These are typically
survey based studies. So it's sending surveys
out to typically, you know, 2000, let's say,
guardians or cat owners, working out what they're
fed with a meat based or vegan diet, and then
asking the owner to give indications of their
health, you know, what does their health look
like? What does the vet say about their health?
How many times they go to the vet? And typically
those studies find that cats fed vegan diets
have health outcomes as good as or indeed better
than those on conventional meat based diets.
So there's the evidence as it stands, and there's
the theory that supports it. Perhaps you'll agree
with me to say that that's essentially a promising
start to feeding a cat a vegan diet. What we'd
probably want now is some more research, particularly
clinical studies looking at various health indicators
in a clinical setting to confirm that research
and improve the evidence base. But certainly
so far, I think there's a good theory and good
evidence so far to show that cats can be fed
vegan diets and thrive, as you said. That's fascinating.
So those studies were surveys, but people can
lie about, you know, the state of their animals.
And if you send a survey to a vegan who's feeding
their cat, you know, a vegan diet, what stops
them from saying, you know, yeah, like it is
super healthy, like he's, you know, living a
good life and all of that. So Yeah, what do you
make of that? Yeah, it's a great question. I
mean, you've essentially identified one of the
method of methodological methodological Let's
see that one more time. Yeah, it's a great question.
You've essentially identified one of the methodological
limitations of the evidence base as it stands,
right? So typically for this, you know, these
studies are survey based. And there's there's
naturally going to be bias, probably on both
sides, right? But we can definitely see bias
for the the vegan cat guardians, right? We can
see them potentially over estimating or overstating
the health benefits on a vegan diet. So I think
what that says is we really want some more research.
to either confirm or deny the findings we've
got so far. As I've said, the findings so far
seem positive. They align with the theory of
feeding cats a vegan diet. They certainly align
with the fact that actually many cat foods today
that are meat -based will have the same synthetic
taurine substituted into those diets because
the processing of often poor quality meat -based
ingredients in meat -based cat food means that
often these nutrients such as taurine will get
degraded and then they're synthetically substituted
back in. If you have a cat at home and you feed
them with meat -based food, you might want to
have a look on the back of the packaging, look
for substitutions or nutritional additives. see
if taurine's in there. If it is, it might say
it's from a synthetic source. It usually is.
And that shows you that actually this is the
same source of taurine that's going to be in
vegan cat foods as well. So as I said, there's
theory that's positive and there's some research
that's positive, but really we'd love to see
more that proves this in a clinical setting as
well. However, my... My position on this as someone
who is advocating for a protein transition is
to say what we should be cautious and we should
ensure the good health of our companion animals
while we facilitate this transition. This is
a promising body of evidence that we should I
think begin to act on because we are aware and
perhaps will come into this in a second but we
are aware of the significance ethical environmental.
and emerging health issues associated with feeding
dogs and cats meat -based diets. So I think your
desire for a stronger evidence base is really
commendable. But at the same time, I don't think
we should necessarily let that hold us back from
recognizing the significant benefits of a pet
food protein transition and where we feel comfortable
to do so and where the research is credible,
facilitating that transition as quickly as possible.
Of course. And what is the opinion of veterinarians
on this issue? Yeah, great question. So the research
on the health benefits or health impacts of dogs
and cats, fed vegan diets is relatively new,
I would say between sort of two and maybe at
a maximum 10 years old. There were some studies
that were done before that, but they're relatively
sparse and typically poorer methods as well.
So essentially this body of research showing
that dogs and cats seem to have... as good as
or better health outcomes on vegan diets compared
to meat -based diets is really new. And obviously,
whenever a new body of research comes into the
scientific literature, it then takes time for
that to filter out into the relevant bodies and
groups of professionals and also the wider population
as well. That's exactly what we're seeing essentially
when it comes to this field. uh it was the case
probably you know five ten years ago that ask
any vet you could find and they would speak with
quite some concern um and probably strong criticism
on the idea of feeding dogs and cats vegan diets
um there were some people out there who have
been cited in the in the literature who were
basically saying look this is probably a a violation
of the animal welfare standards in for example
the uk um because this is not going to meet the
you know health requirements of dogs and cats
and maybe not the the taste requirements of dogs
and cats either you know they be fed a tasty
food and apparently vegan foods wouldn't be wouldn't
be tasty. However over time that is changing
and we are seeing a transition. A good example
of that is the British Veterinary Association
which it was pretty much this time a year ago
retracted their opposition to the use of vegan
diets in dogs. So that is one relatively strong
veterinary body accepting this evidence and changing
their policies and stances as a result. And on
top of that, you will also see a change on the
ground in veterinary communities. I don't have
a quantifiable estimate for you there. But I
can say that I attend many of the veterinary
conferences in the UK and speak to vets on this
issue and advocate for this research and a transition
as a result. And typically, you know, the more
times I've been, you know, I've now been to these
conferences for years at a time, you do hear
more vets being more open to this idea and more
supportive as a result. Obviously, vets are,
you know, have rigorous scientific training and
are motivated to follow evidence as it evolves.
And generally speaking, I think we are seeing
that movement in the veterinary community. Of
course, there's still a lot more work to do.
partly to advocate for this research and partly
to challenge the ties between the meat -based
pet food industry and veterinary communities
as well. But I'm certainly seeing a change and
the change in policy from the British Veterinary
Association is, I think, a good example of that.
Let's talk about the available cat pet food out
there because there's the issue of, you know,
can cats survive, thrive in a on a vegan diet.
And then there's the question of, beyond that,
is there pet food available that will address
those nutrients needs that you highlighted earlier?
So for instance, the taurine. And can we trust
pet food companies to provide good, healthy options
of cat pet food? uh to owners or guardians as
you call them any comment about that uh yeah
look great question you know if we want to try
this out what do we do um there's one point that's
really important and that i'll probably repeat
because it's worth saying um it is strongly recommended
that you find um reputable commercial nutritionally
sound nutritionally complete foods rather than
uh making your own um home -cooked diets for
dogs and cats are an option and some people go
for them, but it is very difficult to home formulate
a nutritionally complete diet. And typically
what you'll see, even if a veterinary nutritionist
were to do this for their own animal, is that
nutritional deficiencies will creep in. So when
I talk about a transition, what I'm not advocating
for is that everyone simply cooks their own vegan
food for their dogs and cats. And so we want
to be looking at the things that you were talking
about, which is what's available at the moment.
And what you should look for is nutritionally
sound and nutritionally complete products. How
can you tell? It's often hard, but there are
often ways to find this. For example, in Europe,
there are a set of nutrition standards guidelines
called the Fedia standards. And typically you
can see that pet food companies will comply to
those standards. That means essentially that
there'll be nutritionally sound. And you can
also look on the back of the package as well
and look at the ingredients in nutritional additives.
You obviously might not be a you know, a veteran
nutritionist yourself, so you might not understand
completely what a diet is, what a nutritionally
sound diet is. But that's another way to look
at the essentially the reputability of a commercial
company. It should be very clear. which ingredients
are in the pet food, what the nutritional additives
are, and that should be all freely available
on the website and obviously on the products
as well. So those are some things to look out
for. Once you find those products and you can
see that these are reputable commercial companies
selling a nutritionally sound food, that's the
time where you might feel comfortable to buy
one and try transitioning your dog on cats. onto
that food, obviously carefully monitoring them
as you do so, as you would do when transitioning
to any other food. But at that point, once you
found a commercial company with a nutritionally
sound food that seems reputable in your eyes,
perhaps it's endorsed by veterinarians, they've
used veterinarians in the formulation process,
that's when you should feel more confident that
the product is nutritionally sound. One more
thing to add is that a study was done into the
nutritional soundness of meat -based versus vegan
pet foods. This was few years ago now I think
and that found essentially no difference between
the nutritional soundness of vegan versus meat
-based pet foods. It in fact found that on average
typically the vegan pet foods are more likely
to meet all the nutritional requirements and
it was theorized that that may be because there's
much more scrutiny on these foods and therefore
they are more careful with their formulation.
But certainly we have peer -reviewed academic
research out there to show that there's not a
significant difference between the nutritional
soundness of vegan and meat -based fat foods.
And that includes cats. Indeed, yeah, that's
dog and fat foods, if I'm not mistaken. What
I will do, I realize I've been citing various
studies as we've gone through our conversation,
I'll make sure that there's some references to
those that are sent to you. And perhaps you can
include the show notes if you're able to, so
that people can have a look at these studies
as well if they'd like to. Of course, they will
be available in the episode notes. Um, yeah,
I guess I'm I'm less afraid about feeding a vegan
diet to a dog. I had a conversation with the
owner, the mom of brambles. uh you yeah uh so
it's been done um and experimented with since
you know the 1980s 1960s i i think i have to
check um but cats you know for me cats are are
just natural killers you know i i see that in
my cats they're um killer instincts and I just
feel weird feed them a vegan diet. Yeah, look,
I mean, I think you speak to a sort of concern
or a feeling that a lot of people have, right?
It does feel perhaps instinctively a little bit
strange. Cats feel like carnivores. They feel
like killers. You might often see your cat, you
know, pouncing at a mouse in the in the back
garden. And so it feels strange then given the
plant based food. I think it's worth reflecting
on the fact that this is a sort of effective
feeling that currently is going against the a
grain of scientific evidence in this field that's
totally okay right we often feel that certain
things particularly things that are connected
to nature feel a certain way they feel right
you know we talk a lot in the in the vegan space
about ultra processed food right and how food
that's ultra processed feels like it's bad and
feels like it's unhealthy but in some cases you
know plant -based meat is an example it can actually
be superior to alternatives um so i think the
the you know my feeling on what you've expressed
there is that but it's a totally understandable
sense that you've got there. But it's worth emphasizing
that the scientific evidence and certain theories
beyond that doesn't align with that feeling.
And perhaps, particularly given the benefits
of a protein transition, which I hope we'll get
on to soon, we should adjust our instincts and
practices as a result. Yeah, let's answer the
why. Why should we... lead that transition. And
I guess a way to introduce this question is to
talk about the ethical aspect of owning cats
and dogs. Often I've heard, you know, many activists
advocating for vegans to adopt sheltered cats
and dogs. And now I'm thinking, you know, is
it really doing good in the world in the sense
of is feeding those cats and dogs that we are
rescuing from shelters, a meat based diet, offsetting
the good of having rescued them? What do you
make of that issue? Yeah, look, this is a really
good question, right? I mean, it's it's known
in academic circles. A few scholars have termed
it the vegetarian's dilemma, right? And I remember
having this, you know, when I said it's changed
my diet. I remember thinking, well, okay, it's
all well and good that I might stop eating a
beef burger. but it looks like I'm feeding a
lot of these same ingredients to my dog, right?
So this can definitely be a concern that many
people have. And the concern, you know, let's
put the health stuff to one side for now. We
can come back to health benefits in a bit. We
can go into more detail on that literature. But
let's for now look at the ethical and the environmental
issues with feeding a meat -based diet to your
dog. They go together, right? The first one is
to say that A significant proportion of the animals
that we feed, that we grow for food, it's currently
reaching about 90, 92 maybe billion land animals
a year, probably in the hundreds of billions
or the trillions of aquatic animals on top of
that. A significant proportion of those are being
grown for pet food. They're being fed to our
dogs and cats, right? The numbers on this are...
when I first saw them, pretty striking and larger
than I would expect. Globally, 9 % of all land,
farmed land animals are fed to dogs and cats.
When you look at wealthy, high -income countries
that have, you know, high rates of dog and cat
ownership, that rises to 20%, okay? 20 % of all
farmed land animals going to pet food. This is
a significant proportion. It comes with significant
ethical issues to kill that many animals to feed
our other animals who we treat as companions
and it also obviously comes with significant
environmental issues as well that are attached
to that because as we know animal -based ingredients
are very commonly and often extremely the ingredients
with the worst environmental outcomes. So we
can delve into this but I think there's a couple
of key figures that are worth remembering. The
first, obviously, is that proportion of farmed
land animals that are going to dogs and cats.
The second is to say that the literature on this
has found that in some cases, there's a study
in Japan, for example, the environmental impacts
of feeding, say, a medium or large dog, a meat
-based diet, can outsize the environmental impacts
of a Japanese person's diets as this study was
in Japan or even for a large dog a Japanese person's
entire environmental footprint. It's quite striking
but makes some sense when you think these are
particularly unsustainable diets built of a high
proportion of meat inside the diet. So it's pretty
clear that there are significant environmental
and as a result also you could say ethical issues
with feeding meat -based diets to dogs and cats
and that's why you know, many people and a growing
number of people are becoming more interested
in alternatives that are both more ethical, more
environmentally friendly, and of course, at the
same time retaining positive or superior health
outcomes. And so your answer is, it's complicated.
Well, look, I mean, it is certainly complicated,
the impacts are often challenging to calculate
and varied. But there's a Also relatively simple
bottom line here, which is to say that dog and
cat diets as they currently exist, which are
predominantly meat based, are extremely unsustainable,
are contributing significant environmental impacts.
on our planet right now. And also contributing
significantly to animal farming and animal slaughter,
which comes with significant ethical implications
as well. So, you know, certainly when you drill
into the details, there's a lot of nuance here.
And, you know, we might get into that. But the
bottom line is that there are currently significant
ethical and environmental issues with feeding
these diets to dogs and cats. Hence the interest
in alternatives. Yes. And the idea, of course,
is to feed them a plant based diet to reduce
the effects of that environmental footprint and
of course of the impact on the many billions
of animals out there that are suffering from
factory farming. Yeah, that's correct. It goes
beyond that as well. Plant based diets. So by
this we mean sort of, you know, animal free pet
food that is Comprised of you know typically
whole food plant based sources that might be
anything from beans and pulses to fruits and
vegetables to algae and things like this. Many
of the most widely available commercial diets
at the moment vegan pet food diets for dogs and
cats. I made of those ingredients but there's
also some really exciting emerging alternatives
as well so. Just as in the human case, we have
various wings of the alternative protein sector
that includes proteins made from fermentation
and from cell cultivation, you've got the same
in the pet food space. So there's a large company
called Feedkind, I believe, that is now selling
a commercially available pet food made from a
precision fermented naturally occurring bacterium.
So that's also a vegan pet food, but it's made
by precision fermentation. the environmental
impacts associated with this sort of food production
even more greatly diminished compared to plant
-based because the land use requirements are
extremely reduced and typically their inputs
are waste inputs from plant agriculture. And
then on top of that we've also got a emerging
cultivated meat pet food space as well. Just
as in the human case, we've got Singapore, the
US, and a couple of other places I think that
are producing cultivated meat for humans to consume
and can sell it there. There is one company in
the UK called Meatly that has gained approval
to sell cultivated meat -based pet food. to dogs
in the UK and some cultivated meat -based dog
treats were available for sale in the UK earlier
this year in a limited supply and there are other
companies worldwide that are working on cultivated
meat -based pet food for dogs and cats as well.
We might not call that animal -free pet food,
and we might not even call it vegan pet food,
depending on your definition of these different
ingredients, but it certainly comes under the
umbrella of sustainable pet foods in that it
seeks to address those ethical environmental
issues associated with conventional meat -based
pet food. So there we go, there's a few different
areas of the sector there, but as you say, plant
-based is the most prolific one at the moment.
And how do we convince people to make that transition
to replace the current pet food they have to
the plant -based alternative? I guess one thing
I thought about was a video that a natural vegan,
she's an influencer, recently posted on YouTube
where she eats. vegan dog pet food and you know
it's quite weird to see but yeah we do have that
feeling that the pet food we give to our animals
is not good for us like we would never you know
taste it or something like that but we don't
get the same you know yucky feeling with plant
-based pet food which is, I guess, could be presented
as an argument, like, you trust the food, you
can even taste that food, so why not, you know,
give it to your pets instead of the meat alternative,
which, you know, you don't trust, and you would
never even, you would get on your hand and wash
it, like, because that's just disgusting. Yeah,
so was there any research done on this issue?
Or maybe you have an opinion on that? Yeah, that's
funny. Yeah. So as I said earlier, I'm a I used
to be a founders associate at Omni, which is
one of the leading vegan pet food companies in
the UK. And I sold a lot of pet food while I
was there often in person at markets and so on.
And I developed a sort of habit of eating a piece
of kibble. if someone was concerned about the
ingredients or the quality and I'd say, look,
it's delicious. Even I eat it. You know, I snack
on it in my spare time. So yeah, that can convince
for some people it's quite a fun sort of party
trick to do. As you say, you wouldn't do it with
some of the ingredients in meat based pet foods.
And in the same way that some people say that
meat feels natural for pets, often vegan pet
food feels much cleaner for pets, much, much
cleaner than the often poor quality animal ingredients
that go into conventional meat based pet food.
But to this question of you know, how can we
convince people, you know, look, it's very similar
to the human case, it's going to be different
arguments for different people. And it sort of
depends, you know, how you want to convince someone
and what someone's priorities are. We're fortunate
that as things stand, as the evidence shows us
at the moment, there are, you know, a variety
of very compelling reasons to transition these
animals. And so often is a case of, you know,
pick your pick the argument you most prefer.
It's worth saying that at the moment, uh the
percentage of guardians feeding vegan pet foods
there dogs and cats are is pretty limited right
it's probably about two percent for dogs in the
uk it's pretty much zero percent at the moment
for cats there's certainly some but it's you
know uh not not a not a significant number right
however consumer survey studies that have been
conducted, there's a couple in the literature
now, show that between 35 to 46 percent of guardians
are open to transitioning to alternatives. if
they were given the right information and their
concerns were satisfied. So there's clearly a
huge opportunity here. And it suggests, as you
say, that there's some convincing that needs
to be done. The research, I think, and perhaps
you're coming around to this as well, seems strong
so far, particularly for dogs. We might talk
about the research for dogs in a bit and growing
for cats. And so we should certainly think about
this transition. For many people, the arguments
will be environmental. And that's one that can
be quite strong. simply saying that the footprint
associated with your dog's diet, in particular,
is going to rival your own in some cases that,
as I said, you know, in a high income country,
the UK 20 % of all farmed land animals are going
to pet food is often quite compelling. There's
a few different statistics there that can motivate
a transition. But there's also some really strong
health based arguments. And actually, the companies
you see that are really flying at the moment,
one of which is Omni in the UK, stick relatively
exclusively to these health based arguments because
they're really strong. These arguments tend to
say, particularly for dogs, because Omni is a
dog food company, it didn't say, look, some of
the ingredients that the pet food industry are
relying on at the moment and have historically
relied on are connected to animal agriculture,
right? These are essentially chicken and beef
are really common ones in pet food. They also
happen to be some of the most common allergens
for dogs in pet food, right? Chicken and beef
are not really the ideal protein sources for
these animals and we feed them I think largely
because they're so available, right? We kill
so many chickens and so many cows. that it's
very available to also feed this stuff to our
dogs and cats, particularly say the byproducts
that humans don't want to eat. But these typically
are sources of allergens that will result in
various health issues. Obesity is a big one.
So 50 % roughly of dogs and cats now in the UK
are obese and that's a rising challenge for veterinarians
that comes with various... you know, subsequent
health issues. Guts issues tend to be a good
problem with this. Skin issues as well as the
other thing I'll typically hear guardians talk
about. And the research shows, and this is particularly
strong in dogs, I said that there were three
studies showing positive health outcomes for
cats, for cats fed vegan diets. There's now I
think 12 studies for dogs showing this. Out of
a literature about 13 studies, 12 roughly, are
showing you know, superior equivalent health
outcomes for dogs on vegan diets. And typically
what you see is a reduction in these health indicators
that are linked to, you know, allergens prompted
by chicken and beef. So these are things like,
you know, gut and digestive issues, skin issues,
things like that. And actually, that's something
that can be really compelling for guardians to
hear that actually the food that they're feeding
may not be prompting the best health outcomes
as it stands. And transitioning to a cleaner
alternative that you know as a bonus has some
environmental positives will be better for your
dog or cats and you know best for your wallet
overall you could also say excluding certain
vet bills and best of your peace of mind because
you know we should recognize that dogs and cats
are now seen as part of the family we love these
animals very much i know i love my dog and and
you know the dogs i've had in my life very much
and we want what's best for them we want the
best health outcomes out there So these are the
sort of arguments that we can use to motivate
a transition. And we're seeing from the success
of various companies like Omni and others that
this is being effective in facilitating a transition.
I feel like we should focus on the fact that
animal products have traces of antibiotics in
them, of excrements of mercury, and the list
goes on. why are we getting into the, you know,
nutrition talk, which is, you know, usually,
you know, you can make the case this way or that
way, it's, it's all, you know, scientific terms
for people, they just don't, it's not very easy
to grasp. And, you know, it's easy to interpret
it that this way or that way. But if you talk
about excrements and mercury, I, you know, case,
you know, you're doing a great case for for your
product. Do you have an opinion on that? Yeah,
look, I think you've, you know, raised a few
more good reasons to transition dogs away from
these diets, you know, that the list essentially
goes on. You know, I would say that I found that
many, you know, guardians of dogs and cats are
quite clued up in the health literature, or at
least the health impacts of their dogs and cats.
They care about this deeply. They'll often read
up online. They'll often speak to their veterinarians.
So I think that is a really ripe discourse that
we can tap into and many guardians will meet
us there. But as you say, there are many others
to go through as well. Animal processing is in
many ways a nightmare and there are issues not
only for the health of the animals The companion
animals I should say that when it comes to things
like mercury excrement, you know residual antibiotics
coming through But also, you know, let's stick
with that antibiotic point public health issues
that come with that as well You know the antibiotic
use in general is a serious public health concern.
I believe the majority of all antibiotics that
we feed are fed to farmed animals, it's certainly
a significant proportion. And so there's a public
health angle there as well that actually comes
back to humans. So yeah, look, you know, there's,
there's various reasons to be concerned with
the status quo when it comes to these diets and
various reasons to strive for superior alternatives.
Yeah, it's just, you know, personal feeling,
I feel frustrated when, you know, vegans or vegan
advocates get into the, you know, science of
nutrition talk and talk about B12, B6, B this
and that. You know that the other side can just
point to other studies and make the same kind
of sciencey arguments. It's just endless conversation
when we have those bigger, stronger arguments
in the presence of, again, antibiotics, mercury,
and so on. So yeah, I just feel it's a missed
opportunity. Do you think that feeding more and
more pets a vegan diet will influence the diet
of their owners, of their guardians? Do you think
it will have an effect in veganizing the general
public? Great question. see something in the
back of my mind says i've read something academic
on this but it's not coming to mind so i'll have
to give you anecdotal evidence instead as i said
look i've i've sold a lot of pet food in my time
and you know i've spoken probably to hundreds
if not thousands thousands of guardians and every
now and again i do meet a vegan guardian who
says oh well i wasn't vegan until my dog turned
vegan you know my dog turned vegan for some health
based reason you know the vet asked them to be
put on a hypoallergenic diet or you know i was
concerned with the environmental impact and so
on and after that they became more open to the
use of vegan diet on themselves, you know, vegan,
vegan ingredients, plant based ingredients. And
so I think it's certainly possible. And I think
it's a it'll be an interesting avenue to explore.
But I think that could be a positive case from
an advocacy point of view. And we might see some
beneficial spillover effects there for sure.
A few words about the I guess the words we use
the terms to describe, you know, pets, you use
the word guardian instead of owner. Do you feel
it makes a difference to use that kind of vocabulary
to talk about pets, companion animals? Great
question. I mean, look, this is a question we
grapple with in various different fields, I guess
you could say, as we learn to dismantle some
of the systems of oppression around us, right?
There's language when it comes to feminism, when
it comes to racism, when it comes to sexuality
and gender that various people encourage us to
change in order to be more inclusive and more
respectful to others. It's really difficult because
changing language is a complex thing that is
never going to be done all in one go with complete
agreement from everyone. But I am relatively
convinced that we should be using language that
is inclusive and also aligns with our ethical
views right so in this case why do i say companion
animals instead of pets and why do i say guardians
of owners because the connotations around pets
and owner is there's an inferiority inferior
and superior element to it and also particularly
the owner there's a sense of ownership right
um and it's it's my sense that we shouldn't own
animals as commodities but rather care for and
respect them as living beings so in that sense
i think there's you know a good case to change
our language in that respect. I guess a caveat
to that is that changing language is generally
messy. And I probably wouldn't expect anyone
to only say companion animal and only say guardian.
And indeed, I often say pet owner, you know,
pet and owner as well, depending on the context
and depending on, you know, what happens to come
out of my mouth. But I do think it is helpful
generally speaking, perhaps depending on your
audience, but generally speaking. to use language
that aligns with our sort of, you know, ethical
frameworks and our desire to keep spaces inclusive,
because language does make a difference to how
we think about the world, conceive the world
around us. I think we should do what we can to
use language to promote the future that we want
to see. Yeah, there are so many perspectives
on on this question. Anne Heritage, again, the
owner of Brembles, I asked her the same question.
She said, she responded, we should, you know,
expose the reality, the violent reality of this
system. And so, yeah, we should be talking about
owners and pets and so on. I don't know if you
ever read Matthew Scully, but he talks about
re appropriating, you know, that language and
the fact that pet was endearing to him. So yeah,
so many perspectives. Yeah, really interesting.
I mean, it's a it's a constant debate, right?
And it's never going to be easy. But I think
there is Certainly things we can do to make a
difference here. And, you know, that's typically
why I use these words, you know, generally speaking
when I can. So long as it doesn't become the
hill we die on, I think. I think there's still
space to, you know, allow for individual preference
and allow for mistakes, you know, and also to
allow for certain language be used in certain
spaces. If you're in a more conservative space
where, you know, saying guardian instead of owner
is going to really switch off a room. you know,
maybe it's best to say owner in that context.
But yeah, generally speaking, I'm with you on
using the language we want to use when possible.
You mentioned a few companies that are developing
and you worked for one that are developing pet
food. Is this lucrative? Are they going to, you
know, become bankrupt in the near future. What
is the state of this new plant based pet food
economy? Good question. Yeah. Yeah, look, it
is lucrative. There's one statistic I can give
you that speaks to that. The vegan pet food market
is growing at a faster rate than the pet food
market overall, right? So it's about 4 .6 % compound
annual growth rate for the pet food market as
a whole. Vegan pet food is about 7 to 9 % CAGR.
So we're seeing there that there's a... particular
growth of this category at the moment. And that
is, you know, most likely motivated by the concerns
we've been talking about the interest in alternatives.
So that's one thing to say the second thing to
say and I can talk about Omni because it's one
of the companies I know best. There are others
that will also be doing well. But the growth
rate of these companies is very impressive. And
certainly Omni is now at a point where it's receiving
relatively mainstream appeal it was on dragons
den which is the uh us equivalent of shark tank
um you know going in front of five celebrity
investors and securing investment from two of
them um and a lot of these companies are growing
very quickly and achieving incredible things.
Another company, The Pack, along with Meatly,
as I said, were able to develop the world's first
cultivated meat -based pet treats ever and feed
it to dogs in the UK. These are really impressive
achievements and it's happening at breakneck
speed. So this is an active and rapidly growing
industry that we should, I think, do our best
to support as it as it real realizes the benefits
that it's seeking to realize. It's funny. It's
so it's called shark tank is called dragon stand
in the UK. Right. The Canada version of that
is also called shark tanks. But the Quebec version,
which is French Canada is called So it's like
the literal translation of the UK one. Funny.
Yeah, that's interesting. Scary animal is basically
the vibe, right? The place where the scary animals
are, it's interesting. But yeah, I guess you
guys are bridging the Europeans or at least the
UK from the North Americans there. Yeah, I wonder
why they made that choice. If we want to invest
in those companies, how do we do so? Yeah, good
question. So I have been aware of some companies
that have offered public shares through Cedars
and platforms like this. I'm not aware of any
that are available at the moment. These companies
may go public at some point, but I don't know
when and I wouldn't expect it to be immediately.
So, you know, feel free to have a look online.
There'll be lists of vegan pet food companies
as a incomplete but still useful list on one
of the websites in the show notes that I'll provide
to you sustainablepetfood .info. So you can have
a look there and see if any are accepting investment.
However, if you are an ordinary person and not
an investor with, you know, piles of money to
spare, there's two ways I think that you could
really financially support this transition. One
is if you've got a dog or cat, you could buy
them vegan pet food, right? You're gonna be realizing
some benefits there with regards to your pet's
health and with regards to the environment and
the ethical impact there as well. But the other
thing you can do is donate to animal charities.
So I expect most of your listeners will be familiar
with these, but there's various charities that
will, meta charities that will collect funds
for those who are seeking to drive positive good
for animals and then distribute those, the animal
movement, animal charity evaluators is one, open
philanthropy I believe has an animal branch,
and farm kind is another great one that's focused
specifically on animals. have a look at those
organizations. And if you want to donate that
is effectively a way of investing in the pet
food protein transition, among other excellent
campaigns that are aimed at helping animals.
So that can be one thing that I'd recommend if
you're interested in supporting financially.
And I guess lastly, why did you decide to, you
know, focus your work on this area of the fight
for animal rights? Yeah, good question. Two reasons
really, or two categories of reason. One is the
sort of maybe the intellectual sort of more businessy
side of things. And the other is the emotional
one, right? The intellectual one was to say,
I've been interested in effective altruism for
a few years. So I was interested in what can
I do that is important neglected and tractable,
how can I do the most good? That led me quite
quickly to the animal movement, which I felt
was incredibly neglected, incredibly important,
and I hope very tractable. And so quite quickly,
I started working on movement and found that
very inspiring and invigorating. And from there,
I sort of looked further still and thought, okay,
I'm a young person, I've got my career ahead
of me, where do I start here? It looks like there's,
you know, a lot of sort of a lot of opportunities
that are right for the taking, but where would
be best? Where can I go? And within the animal
movement, I think the pet food protein transition
is a particularly important, particularly neglected
and particularly tractable sub -cause area, if
you like, particularly important because, as
I've said, you've got about, you know, nine to
20 % of global farmed animals, farmed land animals
and, you know, many more aquatic animals as well
who are being farmed for pet foods. you know,
if we were to transition away from meat based
diets, we'd be saving about 6 billion land animals
globally from slaughter. So there's an importance
there in the numbers. There's a neglectedness
in the sense that despite this occupying a pretty
significant proportion of, you know, animal consumption,
there are hard, there's hardly anyone in the
animal community working on this. You know, I
know there's a podcast that your audience is
a sort of animal advocacy audience. So really,
may I address you all directly when I say this
is severely neglected, and at the moment we've
got quite a large chunk of animal consumption
being focused on with really just a few people
in the movement. I'm one, Professor Andrew Knight
is another, and there's a few others doing excellent
work as well, but it's really not many given
the importance of this field. and then on top
of that I see this is particularly tractable
you know dietary change in the human space is
you know worth fighting for but certainly challenging
and we're learning that as we go dietary change
in the pet space is is under explored and potentially
even more tractable than the human case you know
I see certain elements of that such as you know
when you transition a dog or a cat it's typically
not the case that they'll just suddenly one day
decide that they don't like it anymore and they'll
go something else. You can often feed that food
pretty much forever so long as the guardian is
motivated to rebuy. There's some elements here
to say that this is really tractable health elements
as well. So from that sense, that drew me to
work on pet food and I've been working on the
business side of things for a bit, but now focusing
on research for the last sort of, you know, one,
one and a half, two and a half years now. The
emotional argument is much simpler. The emotional
reason, you know, I love dogs, dogs and cats,
I love animals. It's a pleasure to spend my day
thinking about them and often meeting them if
I'm selling pet food. And yeah, I really enjoy
that. And so it was great to be able to focus
on. sort of an air of this movement that I love
as well. So that's been lovely too. And is it
smooth sailing? Or are you meeting like opposition
from the animal industry? From sort of animal
agriculture industries, do you mean? Yes, I'm
thinking for instance, about advertisements against
plant based meat alternatives. Is there a version
of that for plant based pet food? Yeah, look,
you know, I've heard less of it from an advertising
perspective. I expect it exists to an extent.
I'm aware of I'm aware of cases of animal industries
being concerned and trying to prevent the growth
of this movement and the growth of the research,
so that can exist to an extent. However, it's
also worth saying, and this is similar to the
human case, often meat -based companies and animal
industries see this as an opportunity as well.
So, Mars, one of the biggest pet food conglomerates
in the world, do invest in some vegan pet food
companies, and that's not really a surprise.
They see it as a fast growing category. And while
there is some advertisement moving against vegan,
it's typically just from individual meat based
companies who just want to show off their own
products and discredit the competition. So I
don't see that as too much of a coordinated effort.
So while there is always challenge, and there's
always going to be people with vested interests
to prevent this, and we haven't discussed too
much that, you know, the whole of the meat based
industry in the veterinary community, but You
know, I would love to see you bring for example,
Crystal Heath on who's a veterinarian by trade
who also has done a lot of good work here. And
she could tell you more about that. The evidence
is really strong, you know, and that's why you're
seeing veterinary institutions changing their
guidance. That's why you're seeing more people
becoming interested from a consumer perspective,
and from a movement perspective. And that's why
while there's always opposition to an extent.
I feel very positive about the trajectory of
this movement and this sector as a whole. Yes,
I love Crystal. I had her on the show, maybe
three times, a few times. She's amazing. Okay,
great. So did you want to add something Billy
before I stopped the recording? Yeah, so look,
what I'd say in summary, is that for anyone in
the animal movement or for people who care about
environmental sustainability or the ethics of
animal farming or indeed the health of companion
animals. This is a important and neglected field
that would particularly value your support, I
think. The arguments are pretty clear now. We
could save six billion land animals from slaughter
each year under a global transition to vegan
diets for dogs alone, let alone cats. On top
of that, we could save more greenhouse gases
than the UK emits each year, 1 .5 times more,
in fact. So I could essentially rest easy, I
think, under that scenario. That's for dogs alone.
And land use savings, I believe, larger than
Mexico and Germany combined for dogs and cats.
So, you know, there's some really significant
environmental benefits here and some significant
ethical benefits there as well. On top of that,
we've got strong research here on the health
benefits for dogs and cats. So I said earlier
it was 12 and 13. That's not correct. We've got
12 studies at the moment looking at the health
impacts of dogs fed vegan and meat based diets.
11 of those currently support the use of vegan
diets. Three studies for cats. All three of those
currently support the use of vegan diets for
cats. We've also got a systematic literature
review. that supports the use of these diets
as well and confirms that evidence. So, you know,
this is a really strong body of evidence. And
now really is the time to accelerate this transition,
certainly for dogs where fortunately most of
the impacts are we've got more dogs globally
than cats. It's about 535 million dogs. 475 million
cats globally okay so we've got more dogs than
cats and dogs are bigger so they're eating more
right as well so the impact of dogs are much
more significant unfortunately it's easier to
transition them at the moment anyway and now
that's why we're seeing reputable commercial
companies creating vegan products we're seeing
veterinary institutions opposing their opposition,
taking away their opposition to these diets.
And what I'd really love to see as well is more
people in the animal movement coming on and working
on this issue, talking to consumers, working
with veterinary bodies, with governments, with
regulators, with the pet industry to normalize
these diets as quickly as possible. I hope that's
compelling. If you'd like to learn more sustainablepetfood
.info is a great site. There'll be some other
resources in the show notes and please feel free
to contact me as well. Well, let me say this.
You convinced me to order vegan cat food for
my cat and I will let her decide judge on you
know if it's good enough or not but yeah you
you convinced me to do this much and yeah I'm
I invite people to also you know follow my example
very good well looking forward to hearing how
they like it do let me know and yeah thank you
very much for the time today it's been a pleasure
chatting with you Thank you so much, Billy. Thank
you for all of your good work. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.