WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.220 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and welcome to 00:00:03.220 --> 00:00:07.480 The Vegan Report. Today we talk about sharing 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:11.400 our vegan diets with the cats and dogs in our 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:16.300 life. I have a cat. She is old, has been with 00:00:16.300 --> 00:00:20.339 me since before I was vegan, since high school. 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:24.160 I was thinking of her during this conversation. 00:00:24.739 --> 00:00:29.309 I care a lot about her. and that means being 00:00:29.309 --> 00:00:34.390 very careful about what I feed her. And I don't 00:00:34.390 --> 00:00:38.270 know about you, but I have been reluctant to 00:00:38.270 --> 00:00:42.670 feed her a vegan diet. So for me, this conversation 00:00:42.670 --> 00:00:46.009 was a chance to question the science and studies 00:00:46.009 --> 00:00:50.770 behind vegan cat food. But this was also a chance 00:00:50.770 --> 00:00:54.770 to ask, are we offsetting the good of adopting 00:00:54.770 --> 00:00:58.570 dogs and cats from shelters by feeding them dead 00:00:58.570 --> 00:01:02.890 chickens and cows? Why is the animal rights world 00:01:02.890 --> 00:01:06.810 so behind on addressing the issue of pet food 00:01:06.810 --> 00:01:12.670 diets? Is the word pet offensive? And much more. 00:01:13.670 --> 00:01:16.870 To discuss this topic I have with me Billy Nichols. 00:01:17.510 --> 00:01:20.209 Billy is a researcher specializing in the pet 00:01:20.209 --> 00:01:24.430 food protein transition. He is based at Bryant 00:01:24.430 --> 00:01:28.969 Research, a UK research consultancy specializing 00:01:28.969 --> 00:01:32.250 in the protein transition, where he conducts 00:01:32.250 --> 00:01:36.769 research related to pet diets with a focus on 00:01:36.769 --> 00:01:40.549 the environmental impacts of meat -based and 00:01:40.549 --> 00:01:45.150 vegan pet foods. He has published on the sustainability 00:01:45.150 --> 00:01:49.909 of pet diets and on consumer attitudes towards 00:01:49.909 --> 00:01:54.780 alternative proteins. He was also formerly a 00:01:54.780 --> 00:01:58.560 founder's associate at Omni, one of the UK's 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.540 leading vegan pet food companies. To learn more 00:02:02.540 --> 00:02:06.939 about Billy and his great work, visit the episode 00:02:06.939 --> 00:02:13.259 notes. And as always, if you appreciate this 00:02:13.259 --> 00:02:18.219 type of conversations, follow or subscribe to 00:02:18.219 --> 00:02:22.199 the podcast for more. Please support the podcast 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:26.259 by sharing it with your fellow vegans, with your 00:02:26.259 --> 00:02:31.020 friends and family. Leave a good review. Every 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:37.340 gesture counts. Thank you. Okay, so Billy, thank 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:39.780 you so much for having accepted my invitation. 00:02:40.340 --> 00:02:43.039 Welcome to The Vegan Report. Thank you very much, 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:44.439 Ryan. It's a pleasure to be here. Glad to be 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:48.360 on the show. So I want to start with a question 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:54.319 I had in mind for this week, this entire week, 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.319 as I was thinking about the conversation we were 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:02.199 about to have. Cats are carnivorous creatures, 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:07.819 and I feel deeply uncomfortable in feeding my 00:03:07.819 --> 00:03:12.889 cat a vegan diet. What do you make of you know, 00:03:12.889 --> 00:03:15.449 what is this the state of research around that 00:03:15.449 --> 00:03:21.449 issue and why do I feel so? Hesitant in feeding 00:03:21.449 --> 00:03:24.889 my cat a vegan diet Brilliant. I love this way. 00:03:25.030 --> 00:03:26.990 We're going straight into the deep end. This 00:03:26.990 --> 00:03:30.370 is really the sort of big probably most controversial 00:03:30.370 --> 00:03:34.389 question in the Pet food protein transition the 00:03:34.389 --> 00:03:37.710 vegan pet food space So let's get right into 00:03:37.710 --> 00:03:40.419 it. It's worth saying Why would we think about 00:03:40.419 --> 00:03:41.939 this in the first place, right? There's got to 00:03:41.939 --> 00:03:44.560 be motivations for this. And there's quite a 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:46.199 few when it comes to the diets of our dogs and 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.319 cats. I'm sure we'll get into it, but dogs and 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.439 cats consume a lot of meat. There's ethical implications 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:52.939 there. There's environmental implications, obviously, 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.719 that go with it. But on top of that, there's 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:57.520 growing body of evidence to show that there's 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.139 health implications with the current meat -based 00:04:00.139 --> 00:04:02.659 diets that our dogs and cats are eating. So there 00:04:02.659 --> 00:04:04.979 we go. There's some motivation similar to the 00:04:04.979 --> 00:04:08.219 human space for a transition. That's motivated. 00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:12.639 guardians, another word for owners. So that's 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:14.539 motivated dog and cat guardians to think about 00:04:14.539 --> 00:04:16.759 a transition and whether that's possible. And 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:18.699 it's also motivated researchers like myself and 00:04:18.699 --> 00:04:21.800 others to think about the implications of feeding 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:24.639 our dogs and cats vegan diets. So let's start 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.779 with cats, as you say, I'm interested and thrilled 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:29.740 to hear that you feel inconvertible, perhaps 00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:31.699 by the end of this conversation, you might feel 00:04:31.699 --> 00:04:35.259 slightly differently. There's a premise here 00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:37.600 before we get to the research when it comes to 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:39.819 transitioning dogs and cats onto vegan diets. 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:43.579 And we'll start, as you say, with cats. Cats 00:04:43.579 --> 00:04:45.639 are obligate carnivores. That's correct. What 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.240 does obligate carnivore mean? It means that they 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.779 require certain nutrients that aren't typically 00:04:50.779 --> 00:04:53.199 found in plant -based sources. They're typically 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.600 found in animal -based sources. These are things 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.860 like taurine, vitamin A, to name a couple. And 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:02.699 so in the wild, cats certainly would need to 00:05:02.699 --> 00:05:04.459 eat these meat -based ingredients in order to 00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:08.199 thrive. and receive the nutrients that they need 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:12.220 to survive and thrive. However, there's a sort 00:05:12.220 --> 00:05:14.339 of specificity here that's worth remembering. 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:17.060 The fact that they're obligate carnivores is 00:05:17.060 --> 00:05:19.620 based on the premise that they need certain nutrients 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:21.620 that typically come from animal -based sources. 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:24.540 That doesn't mean that they need the ingredients 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:27.240 that you will usually find those nutrients in. 00:05:27.339 --> 00:05:29.779 Right. It just means they need those nutrients. 00:05:30.019 --> 00:05:32.139 So then the question becomes, can we find those 00:05:32.139 --> 00:05:35.100 nutrients from sources other than animal products 00:05:35.100 --> 00:05:38.399 in the wild? No. Right. You're basically getting 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:41.420 these from from animal flesh, animal flesh, animal 00:05:41.420 --> 00:05:43.779 protein, or the cat is probably going to survive. 00:05:43.819 --> 00:05:46.620 But we're obviously quite a way away from these 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:48.620 wild environments when it comes to domesticated 00:05:48.620 --> 00:05:51.920 dogs and cats now. And certainly most of the 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:53.680 pet foods that we feed to our dogs and cats. 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:58.139 are synthetically substituted with some of these 00:05:58.139 --> 00:06:00.660 nutrients, taurine, vitamin A to name a couple. 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:03.699 So actually you can synthetically create these 00:06:03.699 --> 00:06:05.819 nutrients that typically animals and you know 00:06:05.819 --> 00:06:09.519 cats would would require meat to get. You can 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.310 now synthetically substitute them with no animals 00:06:12.310 --> 00:06:15.230 required so there's the premise right there's 00:06:15.230 --> 00:06:18.490 the premise for feeding a cat a vegan diet you 00:06:18.490 --> 00:06:21.350 can obtain the same nutrients that cats need 00:06:21.350 --> 00:06:25.129 that were you know were necessary from meat from 00:06:25.129 --> 00:06:27.149 synthetic sources and you can supplement them 00:06:27.149 --> 00:06:29.370 into a diet much in the same way that humans 00:06:29.370 --> 00:06:32.490 will supplement say b12 into their diet usually 00:06:32.490 --> 00:06:34.610 there's the premise the next thing you asked 00:06:34.610 --> 00:06:37.290 was well what do we know what does the research 00:06:37.290 --> 00:06:41.930 say right and the research for cats i would described 00:06:41.930 --> 00:06:46.370 so far as positive, and we'd like more of it. 00:06:46.430 --> 00:06:50.470 Right. So we've got three studies looking at 00:06:50.470 --> 00:06:54.290 the health impacts of cats fed vegan versus meat 00:06:54.290 --> 00:06:57.829 based diets. All three of those studies so far 00:06:57.829 --> 00:07:02.069 show that cats fed vegan diets will have health 00:07:02.069 --> 00:07:05.329 outcomes on average as good as or better than 00:07:05.329 --> 00:07:08.009 those on meat based diets. These are typically 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:09.889 survey based studies. So it's sending surveys 00:07:09.889 --> 00:07:13.310 out to typically, you know, 2000, let's say, 00:07:13.449 --> 00:07:16.670 guardians or cat owners, working out what they're 00:07:16.670 --> 00:07:18.490 fed with a meat based or vegan diet, and then 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:20.569 asking the owner to give indications of their 00:07:20.569 --> 00:07:22.250 health, you know, what does their health look 00:07:22.250 --> 00:07:23.990 like? What does the vet say about their health? 00:07:24.050 --> 00:07:26.149 How many times they go to the vet? And typically 00:07:26.149 --> 00:07:29.170 those studies find that cats fed vegan diets 00:07:29.170 --> 00:07:31.730 have health outcomes as good as or indeed better 00:07:31.730 --> 00:07:33.670 than those on conventional meat based diets. 00:07:34.250 --> 00:07:36.250 So there's the evidence as it stands, and there's 00:07:36.250 --> 00:07:40.259 the theory that supports it. Perhaps you'll agree 00:07:40.259 --> 00:07:42.639 with me to say that that's essentially a promising 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.060 start to feeding a cat a vegan diet. What we'd 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:48.899 probably want now is some more research, particularly 00:07:48.899 --> 00:07:52.220 clinical studies looking at various health indicators 00:07:52.220 --> 00:07:55.680 in a clinical setting to confirm that research 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:57.680 and improve the evidence base. But certainly 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.339 so far, I think there's a good theory and good 00:08:00.339 --> 00:08:03.339 evidence so far to show that cats can be fed 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.550 vegan diets and thrive, as you said. That's fascinating. 00:08:07.870 --> 00:08:12.490 So those studies were surveys, but people can 00:08:12.490 --> 00:08:16.970 lie about, you know, the state of their animals. 00:08:18.430 --> 00:08:22.709 And if you send a survey to a vegan who's feeding 00:08:22.709 --> 00:08:25.449 their cat, you know, a vegan diet, what stops 00:08:25.449 --> 00:08:27.629 them from saying, you know, yeah, like it is 00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:31.689 super healthy, like he's, you know, living a 00:08:31.689 --> 00:08:36.309 good life and all of that. So Yeah, what do you 00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:38.789 make of that? Yeah, it's a great question. I 00:08:38.789 --> 00:08:40.710 mean, you've essentially identified one of the 00:08:40.710 --> 00:08:43.570 method of methodological methodological Let's 00:08:43.570 --> 00:08:45.210 see that one more time. Yeah, it's a great question. 00:08:45.210 --> 00:08:47.710 You've essentially identified one of the methodological 00:08:47.710 --> 00:08:50.600 limitations of the evidence base as it stands, 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:53.059 right? So typically for this, you know, these 00:08:53.059 --> 00:08:56.379 studies are survey based. And there's there's 00:08:56.379 --> 00:08:59.100 naturally going to be bias, probably on both 00:08:59.100 --> 00:09:01.340 sides, right? But we can definitely see bias 00:09:01.340 --> 00:09:03.879 for the the vegan cat guardians, right? We can 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:08.120 see them potentially over estimating or overstating 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:11.700 the health benefits on a vegan diet. So I think 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:14.220 what that says is we really want some more research. 00:09:14.409 --> 00:09:16.710 to either confirm or deny the findings we've 00:09:16.710 --> 00:09:18.549 got so far. As I've said, the findings so far 00:09:18.549 --> 00:09:23.970 seem positive. They align with the theory of 00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:26.809 feeding cats a vegan diet. They certainly align 00:09:26.809 --> 00:09:29.549 with the fact that actually many cat foods today 00:09:29.549 --> 00:09:32.889 that are meat -based will have the same synthetic 00:09:32.889 --> 00:09:35.429 taurine substituted into those diets because 00:09:35.429 --> 00:09:38.710 the processing of often poor quality meat -based 00:09:38.710 --> 00:09:42.070 ingredients in meat -based cat food means that 00:09:42.070 --> 00:09:44.909 often these nutrients such as taurine will get 00:09:44.909 --> 00:09:47.029 degraded and then they're synthetically substituted 00:09:47.029 --> 00:09:49.769 back in. If you have a cat at home and you feed 00:09:49.769 --> 00:09:51.169 them with meat -based food, you might want to 00:09:51.169 --> 00:09:53.269 have a look on the back of the packaging, look 00:09:53.269 --> 00:09:56.879 for substitutions or nutritional additives. see 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.179 if taurine's in there. If it is, it might say 00:09:59.179 --> 00:10:01.019 it's from a synthetic source. It usually is. 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:02.919 And that shows you that actually this is the 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:04.539 same source of taurine that's going to be in 00:10:04.539 --> 00:10:07.799 vegan cat foods as well. So as I said, there's 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:09.940 theory that's positive and there's some research 00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:12.019 that's positive, but really we'd love to see 00:10:12.019 --> 00:10:15.960 more that proves this in a clinical setting as 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:21.500 well. However, my... My position on this as someone 00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:24.259 who is advocating for a protein transition is 00:10:24.259 --> 00:10:27.120 to say what we should be cautious and we should 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:31.000 ensure the good health of our companion animals 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:34.700 while we facilitate this transition. This is 00:10:34.700 --> 00:10:38.740 a promising body of evidence that we should I 00:10:38.740 --> 00:10:42.320 think begin to act on because we are aware and 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:44.440 perhaps will come into this in a second but we 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:47.620 are aware of the significance ethical environmental. 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.799 and emerging health issues associated with feeding 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:58.240 dogs and cats meat -based diets. So I think your 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:02.120 desire for a stronger evidence base is really 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.460 commendable. But at the same time, I don't think 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:08.419 we should necessarily let that hold us back from 00:11:08.419 --> 00:11:10.919 recognizing the significant benefits of a pet 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:14.950 food protein transition and where we feel comfortable 00:11:14.950 --> 00:11:16.950 to do so and where the research is credible, 00:11:17.029 --> 00:11:20.049 facilitating that transition as quickly as possible. 00:11:21.470 --> 00:11:25.370 Of course. And what is the opinion of veterinarians 00:11:25.370 --> 00:11:30.250 on this issue? Yeah, great question. So the research 00:11:30.250 --> 00:11:34.230 on the health benefits or health impacts of dogs 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:37.730 and cats, fed vegan diets is relatively new, 00:11:37.889 --> 00:11:41.190 I would say between sort of two and maybe at 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:44.250 a maximum 10 years old. There were some studies 00:11:44.250 --> 00:11:46.690 that were done before that, but they're relatively 00:11:46.690 --> 00:11:49.929 sparse and typically poorer methods as well. 00:11:50.950 --> 00:11:53.409 So essentially this body of research showing 00:11:53.409 --> 00:11:56.840 that dogs and cats seem to have... as good as 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:59.679 or better health outcomes on vegan diets compared 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.639 to meat -based diets is really new. And obviously, 00:12:02.899 --> 00:12:04.559 whenever a new body of research comes into the 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.240 scientific literature, it then takes time for 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:10.440 that to filter out into the relevant bodies and 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:12.340 groups of professionals and also the wider population 00:12:12.340 --> 00:12:15.799 as well. That's exactly what we're seeing essentially 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:19.509 when it comes to this field. uh it was the case 00:12:19.509 --> 00:12:21.809 probably you know five ten years ago that ask 00:12:21.809 --> 00:12:24.649 any vet you could find and they would speak with 00:12:24.649 --> 00:12:27.669 quite some concern um and probably strong criticism 00:12:27.669 --> 00:12:30.330 on the idea of feeding dogs and cats vegan diets 00:12:30.330 --> 00:12:32.309 um there were some people out there who have 00:12:32.309 --> 00:12:34.289 been cited in the in the literature who were 00:12:34.289 --> 00:12:37.309 basically saying look this is probably a a violation 00:12:37.309 --> 00:12:39.789 of the animal welfare standards in for example 00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:42.870 the uk um because this is not going to meet the 00:12:42.870 --> 00:12:44.710 you know health requirements of dogs and cats 00:12:44.710 --> 00:12:46.529 and maybe not the the taste requirements of dogs 00:12:46.529 --> 00:12:48.080 and cats either you know they be fed a tasty 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.340 food and apparently vegan foods wouldn't be wouldn't 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:53.120 be tasty. However over time that is changing 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.899 and we are seeing a transition. A good example 00:12:55.899 --> 00:12:58.840 of that is the British Veterinary Association 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.940 which it was pretty much this time a year ago 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:06.799 retracted their opposition to the use of vegan 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:11.559 diets in dogs. So that is one relatively strong 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.240 veterinary body accepting this evidence and changing 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.899 their policies and stances as a result. And on 00:13:17.899 --> 00:13:21.000 top of that, you will also see a change on the 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.340 ground in veterinary communities. I don't have 00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:26.820 a quantifiable estimate for you there. But I 00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:28.980 can say that I attend many of the veterinary 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:31.860 conferences in the UK and speak to vets on this 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:36.620 issue and advocate for this research and a transition 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:40.480 as a result. And typically, you know, the more 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.340 times I've been, you know, I've now been to these 00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:44.820 conferences for years at a time, you do hear 00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:48.340 more vets being more open to this idea and more 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:51.100 supportive as a result. Obviously, vets are, 00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:53.820 you know, have rigorous scientific training and 00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:56.659 are motivated to follow evidence as it evolves. 00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:00.360 And generally speaking, I think we are seeing 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.399 that movement in the veterinary community. Of 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.600 course, there's still a lot more work to do. 00:14:06.689 --> 00:14:08.789 partly to advocate for this research and partly 00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:11.549 to challenge the ties between the meat -based 00:14:11.549 --> 00:14:13.929 pet food industry and veterinary communities 00:14:13.929 --> 00:14:19.009 as well. But I'm certainly seeing a change and 00:14:19.009 --> 00:14:20.789 the change in policy from the British Veterinary 00:14:20.789 --> 00:14:22.769 Association is, I think, a good example of that. 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:27.929 Let's talk about the available cat pet food out 00:14:27.929 --> 00:14:30.809 there because there's the issue of, you know, 00:14:30.809 --> 00:14:37.100 can cats survive, thrive in a on a vegan diet. 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.840 And then there's the question of, beyond that, 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.120 is there pet food available that will address 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.879 those nutrients needs that you highlighted earlier? 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:55.080 So for instance, the taurine. And can we trust 00:14:55.080 --> 00:15:03.059 pet food companies to provide good, healthy options 00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:07.950 of cat pet food? uh to owners or guardians as 00:15:07.950 --> 00:15:12.210 you call them any comment about that uh yeah 00:15:12.210 --> 00:15:14.649 look great question you know if we want to try 00:15:14.649 --> 00:15:17.870 this out what do we do um there's one point that's 00:15:17.870 --> 00:15:20.090 really important and that i'll probably repeat 00:15:20.090 --> 00:15:23.669 because it's worth saying um it is strongly recommended 00:15:23.669 --> 00:15:29.009 that you find um reputable commercial nutritionally 00:15:29.009 --> 00:15:32.629 sound nutritionally complete foods rather than 00:15:32.629 --> 00:15:36.519 uh making your own um home -cooked diets for 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.539 dogs and cats are an option and some people go 00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:43.299 for them, but it is very difficult to home formulate 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:45.320 a nutritionally complete diet. And typically 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.799 what you'll see, even if a veterinary nutritionist 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:49.940 were to do this for their own animal, is that 00:15:49.940 --> 00:15:54.519 nutritional deficiencies will creep in. So when 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:56.779 I talk about a transition, what I'm not advocating 00:15:56.779 --> 00:16:00.139 for is that everyone simply cooks their own vegan 00:16:00.139 --> 00:16:03.340 food for their dogs and cats. And so we want 00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:04.460 to be looking at the things that you were talking 00:16:04.460 --> 00:16:06.600 about, which is what's available at the moment. 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.700 And what you should look for is nutritionally 00:16:09.700 --> 00:16:11.440 sound and nutritionally complete products. How 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.200 can you tell? It's often hard, but there are 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.360 often ways to find this. For example, in Europe, 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:20.220 there are a set of nutrition standards guidelines 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:24.740 called the Fedia standards. And typically you 00:16:24.740 --> 00:16:27.200 can see that pet food companies will comply to 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:28.720 those standards. That means essentially that 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.929 there'll be nutritionally sound. And you can 00:16:31.929 --> 00:16:34.009 also look on the back of the package as well 00:16:34.009 --> 00:16:36.710 and look at the ingredients in nutritional additives. 00:16:37.629 --> 00:16:40.629 You obviously might not be a you know, a veteran 00:16:40.629 --> 00:16:42.129 nutritionist yourself, so you might not understand 00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:44.370 completely what a diet is, what a nutritionally 00:16:44.370 --> 00:16:47.690 sound diet is. But that's another way to look 00:16:47.690 --> 00:16:50.409 at the essentially the reputability of a commercial 00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:53.370 company. It should be very clear. which ingredients 00:16:53.370 --> 00:16:55.450 are in the pet food, what the nutritional additives 00:16:55.450 --> 00:16:57.129 are, and that should be all freely available 00:16:57.129 --> 00:16:58.970 on the website and obviously on the products 00:16:58.970 --> 00:17:01.450 as well. So those are some things to look out 00:17:01.450 --> 00:17:06.130 for. Once you find those products and you can 00:17:06.130 --> 00:17:08.130 see that these are reputable commercial companies 00:17:08.130 --> 00:17:10.589 selling a nutritionally sound food, that's the 00:17:10.589 --> 00:17:12.769 time where you might feel comfortable to buy 00:17:12.769 --> 00:17:15.670 one and try transitioning your dog on cats. onto 00:17:15.670 --> 00:17:18.309 that food, obviously carefully monitoring them 00:17:18.309 --> 00:17:20.369 as you do so, as you would do when transitioning 00:17:20.369 --> 00:17:23.230 to any other food. But at that point, once you 00:17:23.230 --> 00:17:24.910 found a commercial company with a nutritionally 00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:27.329 sound food that seems reputable in your eyes, 00:17:27.349 --> 00:17:29.849 perhaps it's endorsed by veterinarians, they've 00:17:29.849 --> 00:17:31.990 used veterinarians in the formulation process, 00:17:32.369 --> 00:17:34.569 that's when you should feel more confident that 00:17:34.569 --> 00:17:37.990 the product is nutritionally sound. One more 00:17:37.990 --> 00:17:40.490 thing to add is that a study was done into the 00:17:40.490 --> 00:17:42.509 nutritional soundness of meat -based versus vegan 00:17:42.509 --> 00:17:46.009 pet foods. This was few years ago now I think 00:17:46.009 --> 00:17:48.910 and that found essentially no difference between 00:17:48.910 --> 00:17:50.809 the nutritional soundness of vegan versus meat 00:17:50.809 --> 00:17:55.130 -based pet foods. It in fact found that on average 00:17:55.130 --> 00:17:57.509 typically the vegan pet foods are more likely 00:17:57.509 --> 00:17:59.930 to meet all the nutritional requirements and 00:17:59.930 --> 00:18:01.970 it was theorized that that may be because there's 00:18:01.970 --> 00:18:03.750 much more scrutiny on these foods and therefore 00:18:03.750 --> 00:18:05.630 they are more careful with their formulation. 00:18:06.730 --> 00:18:09.099 But certainly we have peer -reviewed academic 00:18:09.099 --> 00:18:11.519 research out there to show that there's not a 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:12.859 significant difference between the nutritional 00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:14.759 soundness of vegan and meat -based fat foods. 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:21.039 And that includes cats. Indeed, yeah, that's 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:23.779 dog and fat foods, if I'm not mistaken. What 00:18:23.779 --> 00:18:26.900 I will do, I realize I've been citing various 00:18:26.900 --> 00:18:28.900 studies as we've gone through our conversation, 00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:32.630 I'll make sure that there's some references to 00:18:32.630 --> 00:18:34.490 those that are sent to you. And perhaps you can 00:18:34.490 --> 00:18:36.329 include the show notes if you're able to, so 00:18:36.329 --> 00:18:37.630 that people can have a look at these studies 00:18:37.630 --> 00:18:41.089 as well if they'd like to. Of course, they will 00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:45.069 be available in the episode notes. Um, yeah, 00:18:45.170 --> 00:18:49.910 I guess I'm I'm less afraid about feeding a vegan 00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:55.250 diet to a dog. I had a conversation with the 00:18:55.250 --> 00:19:02.059 owner, the mom of brambles. uh you yeah uh so 00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:07.839 it's been done um and experimented with since 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:13.200 you know the 1980s 1960s i i think i have to 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.880 check um but cats you know for me cats are are 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.180 just natural killers you know i i see that in 00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:26.200 my cats they're um killer instincts and I just 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.900 feel weird feed them a vegan diet. Yeah, look, 00:19:30.019 --> 00:19:32.480 I mean, I think you speak to a sort of concern 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:33.980 or a feeling that a lot of people have, right? 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:37.099 It does feel perhaps instinctively a little bit 00:19:37.099 --> 00:19:39.839 strange. Cats feel like carnivores. They feel 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:42.359 like killers. You might often see your cat, you 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.180 know, pouncing at a mouse in the in the back 00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:47.640 garden. And so it feels strange then given the 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.470 plant based food. I think it's worth reflecting 00:19:50.470 --> 00:19:52.970 on the fact that this is a sort of effective 00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:58.130 feeling that currently is going against the a 00:19:58.130 --> 00:20:00.750 grain of scientific evidence in this field that's 00:20:00.750 --> 00:20:02.910 totally okay right we often feel that certain 00:20:02.910 --> 00:20:04.769 things particularly things that are connected 00:20:04.769 --> 00:20:07.230 to nature feel a certain way they feel right 00:20:07.230 --> 00:20:09.049 you know we talk a lot in the in the vegan space 00:20:09.049 --> 00:20:11.789 about ultra processed food right and how food 00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:14.309 that's ultra processed feels like it's bad and 00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:16.869 feels like it's unhealthy but in some cases you 00:20:16.869 --> 00:20:19.390 know plant -based meat is an example it can actually 00:20:19.390 --> 00:20:22.930 be superior to alternatives um so i think the 00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:26.289 the you know my feeling on what you've expressed 00:20:26.289 --> 00:20:28.839 there is that but it's a totally understandable 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:32.440 sense that you've got there. But it's worth emphasizing 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:36.460 that the scientific evidence and certain theories 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:39.380 beyond that doesn't align with that feeling. 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.980 And perhaps, particularly given the benefits 00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:43.920 of a protein transition, which I hope we'll get 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:48.640 on to soon, we should adjust our instincts and 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:53.019 practices as a result. Yeah, let's answer the 00:20:53.019 --> 00:21:00.579 why. Why should we... lead that transition. And 00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:06.500 I guess a way to introduce this question is to 00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:11.779 talk about the ethical aspect of owning cats 00:21:11.779 --> 00:21:17.900 and dogs. Often I've heard, you know, many activists 00:21:17.900 --> 00:21:25.539 advocating for vegans to adopt sheltered cats 00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:32.400 and dogs. And now I'm thinking, you know, is 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.240 it really doing good in the world in the sense 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:40.980 of is feeding those cats and dogs that we are 00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:45.900 rescuing from shelters, a meat based diet, offsetting 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:49.940 the good of having rescued them? What do you 00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:53.680 make of that issue? Yeah, look, this is a really 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:55.259 good question, right? I mean, it's it's known 00:21:55.259 --> 00:21:58.920 in academic circles. A few scholars have termed 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.259 it the vegetarian's dilemma, right? And I remember 00:22:02.259 --> 00:22:03.680 having this, you know, when I said it's changed 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.000 my diet. I remember thinking, well, okay, it's 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.539 all well and good that I might stop eating a 00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:09.789 beef burger. but it looks like I'm feeding a 00:22:09.789 --> 00:22:11.809 lot of these same ingredients to my dog, right? 00:22:13.190 --> 00:22:16.069 So this can definitely be a concern that many 00:22:16.069 --> 00:22:18.630 people have. And the concern, you know, let's 00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:20.589 put the health stuff to one side for now. We 00:22:20.589 --> 00:22:22.230 can come back to health benefits in a bit. We 00:22:22.230 --> 00:22:24.630 can go into more detail on that literature. But 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:28.049 let's for now look at the ethical and the environmental 00:22:28.049 --> 00:22:30.990 issues with feeding a meat -based diet to your 00:22:30.990 --> 00:22:33.170 dog. They go together, right? The first one is 00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:37.980 to say that A significant proportion of the animals 00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:41.579 that we feed, that we grow for food, it's currently 00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:45.880 reaching about 90, 92 maybe billion land animals 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:48.619 a year, probably in the hundreds of billions 00:22:48.619 --> 00:22:50.799 or the trillions of aquatic animals on top of 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.180 that. A significant proportion of those are being 00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:57.000 grown for pet food. They're being fed to our 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.119 dogs and cats, right? The numbers on this are... 00:23:00.809 --> 00:23:03.950 when I first saw them, pretty striking and larger 00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:08.670 than I would expect. Globally, 9 % of all land, 00:23:08.950 --> 00:23:12.029 farmed land animals are fed to dogs and cats. 00:23:12.549 --> 00:23:15.529 When you look at wealthy, high -income countries 00:23:15.529 --> 00:23:20.210 that have, you know, high rates of dog and cat 00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:24.410 ownership, that rises to 20%, okay? 20 % of all 00:23:24.410 --> 00:23:26.569 farmed land animals going to pet food. This is 00:23:26.569 --> 00:23:30.339 a significant proportion. It comes with significant 00:23:30.339 --> 00:23:33.599 ethical issues to kill that many animals to feed 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:35.839 our other animals who we treat as companions 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.359 and it also obviously comes with significant 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.559 environmental issues as well that are attached 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.059 to that because as we know animal -based ingredients 00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:50.700 are very commonly and often extremely the ingredients 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:54.440 with the worst environmental outcomes. So we 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:56.579 can delve into this but I think there's a couple 00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:59.829 of key figures that are worth remembering. The 00:23:59.829 --> 00:24:02.109 first, obviously, is that proportion of farmed 00:24:02.109 --> 00:24:03.569 land animals that are going to dogs and cats. 00:24:04.069 --> 00:24:06.630 The second is to say that the literature on this 00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:10.950 has found that in some cases, there's a study 00:24:10.950 --> 00:24:13.710 in Japan, for example, the environmental impacts 00:24:13.710 --> 00:24:16.390 of feeding, say, a medium or large dog, a meat 00:24:16.390 --> 00:24:19.150 -based diet, can outsize the environmental impacts 00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:23.539 of a Japanese person's diets as this study was 00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:26.500 in Japan or even for a large dog a Japanese person's 00:24:26.500 --> 00:24:29.059 entire environmental footprint. It's quite striking 00:24:29.059 --> 00:24:32.259 but makes some sense when you think these are 00:24:32.259 --> 00:24:36.059 particularly unsustainable diets built of a high 00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:40.079 proportion of meat inside the diet. So it's pretty 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.539 clear that there are significant environmental 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.119 and as a result also you could say ethical issues 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.319 with feeding meat -based diets to dogs and cats 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:51.680 and that's why you know, many people and a growing 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.339 number of people are becoming more interested 00:24:54.339 --> 00:24:57.400 in alternatives that are both more ethical, more 00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.720 environmentally friendly, and of course, at the 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.420 same time retaining positive or superior health 00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:06.720 outcomes. And so your answer is, it's complicated. 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:11.819 Well, look, I mean, it is certainly complicated, 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.059 the impacts are often challenging to calculate 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:19.119 and varied. But there's a Also relatively simple 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:22.000 bottom line here, which is to say that dog and 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.819 cat diets as they currently exist, which are 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:27.579 predominantly meat based, are extremely unsustainable, 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.980 are contributing significant environmental impacts. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.240 on our planet right now. And also contributing 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:39.900 significantly to animal farming and animal slaughter, 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:41.980 which comes with significant ethical implications 00:25:41.980 --> 00:25:43.920 as well. So, you know, certainly when you drill 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:45.740 into the details, there's a lot of nuance here. 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:47.799 And, you know, we might get into that. But the 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.440 bottom line is that there are currently significant 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.259 ethical and environmental issues with feeding 00:25:53.259 --> 00:25:57.380 these diets to dogs and cats. Hence the interest 00:25:57.380 --> 00:26:00.480 in alternatives. Yes. And the idea, of course, 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.779 is to feed them a plant based diet to reduce 00:26:04.779 --> 00:26:07.440 the effects of that environmental footprint and 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.400 of course of the impact on the many billions 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.579 of animals out there that are suffering from 00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:17.759 factory farming. Yeah, that's correct. It goes 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.059 beyond that as well. Plant based diets. So by 00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:23.400 this we mean sort of, you know, animal free pet 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.660 food that is Comprised of you know typically 00:26:26.660 --> 00:26:29.500 whole food plant based sources that might be 00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:31.940 anything from beans and pulses to fruits and 00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:35.019 vegetables to algae and things like this. Many 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:38.380 of the most widely available commercial diets 00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:40.299 at the moment vegan pet food diets for dogs and 00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:42.839 cats. I made of those ingredients but there's 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:44.700 also some really exciting emerging alternatives 00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:48.759 as well so. Just as in the human case, we have 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.000 various wings of the alternative protein sector 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.920 that includes proteins made from fermentation 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:56.539 and from cell cultivation, you've got the same 00:26:56.539 --> 00:27:00.559 in the pet food space. So there's a large company 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:04.000 called Feedkind, I believe, that is now selling 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.039 a commercially available pet food made from a 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.559 precision fermented naturally occurring bacterium. 00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:13.519 So that's also a vegan pet food, but it's made 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:17.200 by precision fermentation. the environmental 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.720 impacts associated with this sort of food production 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:22.359 even more greatly diminished compared to plant 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:24.059 -based because the land use requirements are 00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:26.559 extremely reduced and typically their inputs 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.200 are waste inputs from plant agriculture. And 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.900 then on top of that we've also got a emerging 00:27:32.900 --> 00:27:36.910 cultivated meat pet food space as well. Just 00:27:36.910 --> 00:27:39.490 as in the human case, we've got Singapore, the 00:27:39.490 --> 00:27:41.930 US, and a couple of other places I think that 00:27:41.930 --> 00:27:44.890 are producing cultivated meat for humans to consume 00:27:44.890 --> 00:27:48.490 and can sell it there. There is one company in 00:27:48.490 --> 00:27:51.250 the UK called Meatly that has gained approval 00:27:51.250 --> 00:27:56.880 to sell cultivated meat -based pet food. to dogs 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.539 in the UK and some cultivated meat -based dog 00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:03.519 treats were available for sale in the UK earlier 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.299 this year in a limited supply and there are other 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:09.119 companies worldwide that are working on cultivated 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.420 meat -based pet food for dogs and cats as well. 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:15.130 We might not call that animal -free pet food, 00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:17.329 and we might not even call it vegan pet food, 00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:19.910 depending on your definition of these different 00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:22.190 ingredients, but it certainly comes under the 00:28:22.190 --> 00:28:24.529 umbrella of sustainable pet foods in that it 00:28:24.529 --> 00:28:27.269 seeks to address those ethical environmental 00:28:27.269 --> 00:28:29.309 issues associated with conventional meat -based 00:28:29.309 --> 00:28:33.009 pet food. So there we go, there's a few different 00:28:33.009 --> 00:28:36.509 areas of the sector there, but as you say, plant 00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:39.150 -based is the most prolific one at the moment. 00:28:39.950 --> 00:28:43.490 And how do we convince people to make that transition 00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:47.609 to replace the current pet food they have to 00:28:47.609 --> 00:28:52.289 the plant -based alternative? I guess one thing 00:28:52.289 --> 00:28:57.569 I thought about was a video that a natural vegan, 00:28:57.730 --> 00:29:02.009 she's an influencer, recently posted on YouTube 00:29:02.009 --> 00:29:10.700 where she eats. vegan dog pet food and you know 00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:16.059 it's quite weird to see but yeah we do have that 00:29:16.059 --> 00:29:19.000 feeling that the pet food we give to our animals 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:24.900 is not good for us like we would never you know 00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:28.420 taste it or something like that but we don't 00:29:28.420 --> 00:29:34.019 get the same you know yucky feeling with plant 00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:38.980 -based pet food which is, I guess, could be presented 00:29:38.980 --> 00:29:43.359 as an argument, like, you trust the food, you 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:47.279 can even taste that food, so why not, you know, 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:52.799 give it to your pets instead of the meat alternative, 00:29:53.019 --> 00:29:55.380 which, you know, you don't trust, and you would 00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:59.220 never even, you would get on your hand and wash 00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:03.539 it, like, because that's just disgusting. Yeah, 00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:08.460 so was there any research done on this issue? 00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:12.000 Or maybe you have an opinion on that? Yeah, that's 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.759 funny. Yeah. So as I said earlier, I'm a I used 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.079 to be a founders associate at Omni, which is 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:20.000 one of the leading vegan pet food companies in 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:23.079 the UK. And I sold a lot of pet food while I 00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:25.380 was there often in person at markets and so on. 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:28.440 And I developed a sort of habit of eating a piece 00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:31.609 of kibble. if someone was concerned about the 00:30:31.609 --> 00:30:33.170 ingredients or the quality and I'd say, look, 00:30:33.190 --> 00:30:35.490 it's delicious. Even I eat it. You know, I snack 00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:37.809 on it in my spare time. So yeah, that can convince 00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:39.630 for some people it's quite a fun sort of party 00:30:39.630 --> 00:30:41.750 trick to do. As you say, you wouldn't do it with 00:30:41.750 --> 00:30:43.390 some of the ingredients in meat based pet foods. 00:30:43.390 --> 00:30:45.950 And in the same way that some people say that 00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:49.109 meat feels natural for pets, often vegan pet 00:30:49.109 --> 00:30:51.109 food feels much cleaner for pets, much, much 00:30:51.109 --> 00:30:53.670 cleaner than the often poor quality animal ingredients 00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:55.650 that go into conventional meat based pet food. 00:30:56.130 --> 00:30:58.450 But to this question of you know, how can we 00:30:58.450 --> 00:31:00.329 convince people, you know, look, it's very similar 00:31:00.329 --> 00:31:01.690 to the human case, it's going to be different 00:31:01.690 --> 00:31:04.589 arguments for different people. And it sort of 00:31:04.589 --> 00:31:06.990 depends, you know, how you want to convince someone 00:31:06.990 --> 00:31:09.549 and what someone's priorities are. We're fortunate 00:31:09.549 --> 00:31:12.349 that as things stand, as the evidence shows us 00:31:12.349 --> 00:31:15.329 at the moment, there are, you know, a variety 00:31:15.329 --> 00:31:17.930 of very compelling reasons to transition these 00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:20.269 animals. And so often is a case of, you know, 00:31:20.390 --> 00:31:22.009 pick your pick the argument you most prefer. 00:31:22.190 --> 00:31:25.480 It's worth saying that at the moment, uh the 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:28.400 percentage of guardians feeding vegan pet foods 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:31.539 there dogs and cats are is pretty limited right 00:31:31.539 --> 00:31:33.700 it's probably about two percent for dogs in the 00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:36.319 uk it's pretty much zero percent at the moment 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.220 for cats there's certainly some but it's you 00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:42.000 know uh not not a not a significant number right 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.309 however consumer survey studies that have been 00:31:46.309 --> 00:31:47.730 conducted, there's a couple in the literature 00:31:47.730 --> 00:31:52.450 now, show that between 35 to 46 percent of guardians 00:31:52.450 --> 00:31:56.440 are open to transitioning to alternatives. if 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:58.059 they were given the right information and their 00:31:58.059 --> 00:32:00.680 concerns were satisfied. So there's clearly a 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.619 huge opportunity here. And it suggests, as you 00:32:02.619 --> 00:32:04.319 say, that there's some convincing that needs 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.619 to be done. The research, I think, and perhaps 00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:09.900 you're coming around to this as well, seems strong 00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:12.420 so far, particularly for dogs. We might talk 00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:14.640 about the research for dogs in a bit and growing 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.460 for cats. And so we should certainly think about 00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:20.359 this transition. For many people, the arguments 00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:23.220 will be environmental. And that's one that can 00:32:23.220 --> 00:32:27.440 be quite strong. simply saying that the footprint 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:29.700 associated with your dog's diet, in particular, 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.460 is going to rival your own in some cases that, 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:34.200 as I said, you know, in a high income country, 00:32:34.339 --> 00:32:37.759 the UK 20 % of all farmed land animals are going 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:41.099 to pet food is often quite compelling. There's 00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:43.700 a few different statistics there that can motivate 00:32:43.700 --> 00:32:46.539 a transition. But there's also some really strong 00:32:46.539 --> 00:32:48.200 health based arguments. And actually, the companies 00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:49.700 you see that are really flying at the moment, 00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:54.519 one of which is Omni in the UK, stick relatively 00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:56.619 exclusively to these health based arguments because 00:32:56.619 --> 00:32:58.599 they're really strong. These arguments tend to 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.819 say, particularly for dogs, because Omni is a 00:33:01.819 --> 00:33:05.240 dog food company, it didn't say, look, some of 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:09.579 the ingredients that the pet food industry are 00:33:09.579 --> 00:33:11.279 relying on at the moment and have historically 00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:15.400 relied on are connected to animal agriculture, 00:33:15.700 --> 00:33:17.500 right? These are essentially chicken and beef 00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:20.480 are really common ones in pet food. They also 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:23.309 happen to be some of the most common allergens 00:33:23.309 --> 00:33:26.309 for dogs in pet food, right? Chicken and beef 00:33:26.309 --> 00:33:28.829 are not really the ideal protein sources for 00:33:28.829 --> 00:33:31.089 these animals and we feed them I think largely 00:33:31.089 --> 00:33:33.769 because they're so available, right? We kill 00:33:33.769 --> 00:33:37.420 so many chickens and so many cows. that it's 00:33:37.420 --> 00:33:39.559 very available to also feed this stuff to our 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:41.539 dogs and cats, particularly say the byproducts 00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:45.299 that humans don't want to eat. But these typically 00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:47.619 are sources of allergens that will result in 00:33:47.619 --> 00:33:50.660 various health issues. Obesity is a big one. 00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:54.160 So 50 % roughly of dogs and cats now in the UK 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:57.339 are obese and that's a rising challenge for veterinarians 00:33:57.339 --> 00:33:59.380 that comes with various... you know, subsequent 00:33:59.380 --> 00:34:02.859 health issues. Guts issues tend to be a good 00:34:02.859 --> 00:34:05.240 problem with this. Skin issues as well as the 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:07.339 other thing I'll typically hear guardians talk 00:34:07.339 --> 00:34:10.699 about. And the research shows, and this is particularly 00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:12.400 strong in dogs, I said that there were three 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.699 studies showing positive health outcomes for 00:34:15.699 --> 00:34:19.719 cats, for cats fed vegan diets. There's now I 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.059 think 12 studies for dogs showing this. Out of 00:34:23.059 --> 00:34:26.400 a literature about 13 studies, 12 roughly, are 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.369 showing you know, superior equivalent health 00:34:29.369 --> 00:34:31.929 outcomes for dogs on vegan diets. And typically 00:34:31.929 --> 00:34:36.050 what you see is a reduction in these health indicators 00:34:36.050 --> 00:34:38.190 that are linked to, you know, allergens prompted 00:34:38.190 --> 00:34:39.969 by chicken and beef. So these are things like, 00:34:39.969 --> 00:34:42.690 you know, gut and digestive issues, skin issues, 00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:45.369 things like that. And actually, that's something 00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:47.289 that can be really compelling for guardians to 00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:48.710 hear that actually the food that they're feeding 00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:50.769 may not be prompting the best health outcomes 00:34:50.769 --> 00:34:54.969 as it stands. And transitioning to a cleaner 00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:58.360 alternative that you know as a bonus has some 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.659 environmental positives will be better for your 00:35:01.659 --> 00:35:04.179 dog or cats and you know best for your wallet 00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:06.239 overall you could also say excluding certain 00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.980 vet bills and best of your peace of mind because 00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:12.159 you know we should recognize that dogs and cats 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:14.980 are now seen as part of the family we love these 00:35:14.980 --> 00:35:17.840 animals very much i know i love my dog and and 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:19.579 you know the dogs i've had in my life very much 00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:21.480 and we want what's best for them we want the 00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:24.489 best health outcomes out there So these are the 00:35:24.489 --> 00:35:27.130 sort of arguments that we can use to motivate 00:35:27.130 --> 00:35:29.869 a transition. And we're seeing from the success 00:35:29.869 --> 00:35:33.349 of various companies like Omni and others that 00:35:33.349 --> 00:35:36.070 this is being effective in facilitating a transition. 00:35:37.449 --> 00:35:41.349 I feel like we should focus on the fact that 00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:45.190 animal products have traces of antibiotics in 00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:49.690 them, of excrements of mercury, and the list 00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:54.980 goes on. why are we getting into the, you know, 00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:58.199 nutrition talk, which is, you know, usually, 00:35:58.820 --> 00:36:02.460 you know, you can make the case this way or that 00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:05.699 way, it's, it's all, you know, scientific terms 00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:09.179 for people, they just don't, it's not very easy 00:36:09.179 --> 00:36:13.960 to grasp. And, you know, it's easy to interpret 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.280 it that this way or that way. But if you talk 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:20.969 about excrements and mercury, I, you know, case, 00:36:21.210 --> 00:36:23.750 you know, you're doing a great case for for your 00:36:23.750 --> 00:36:28.610 product. Do you have an opinion on that? Yeah, 00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:31.030 look, I think you've, you know, raised a few 00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:34.090 more good reasons to transition dogs away from 00:36:34.090 --> 00:36:36.710 these diets, you know, that the list essentially 00:36:36.710 --> 00:36:41.210 goes on. You know, I would say that I found that 00:36:41.210 --> 00:36:44.070 many, you know, guardians of dogs and cats are 00:36:44.139 --> 00:36:47.440 quite clued up in the health literature, or at 00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:50.599 least the health impacts of their dogs and cats. 00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:52.940 They care about this deeply. They'll often read 00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:54.719 up online. They'll often speak to their veterinarians. 00:36:55.139 --> 00:36:58.260 So I think that is a really ripe discourse that 00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:01.519 we can tap into and many guardians will meet 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.860 us there. But as you say, there are many others 00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:08.550 to go through as well. Animal processing is in 00:37:08.550 --> 00:37:11.769 many ways a nightmare and there are issues not 00:37:11.769 --> 00:37:15.929 only for the health of the animals The companion 00:37:15.929 --> 00:37:17.869 animals I should say that when it comes to things 00:37:17.869 --> 00:37:20.250 like mercury excrement, you know residual antibiotics 00:37:20.250 --> 00:37:23.210 coming through But also, you know, let's stick 00:37:23.210 --> 00:37:25.010 with that antibiotic point public health issues 00:37:25.010 --> 00:37:26.570 that come with that as well You know the antibiotic 00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:30.010 use in general is a serious public health concern. 00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:32.510 I believe the majority of all antibiotics that 00:37:32.510 --> 00:37:35.940 we feed are fed to farmed animals, it's certainly 00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:39.039 a significant proportion. And so there's a public 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:41.280 health angle there as well that actually comes 00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.559 back to humans. So yeah, look, you know, there's, 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.760 there's various reasons to be concerned with 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:50.019 the status quo when it comes to these diets and 00:37:50.019 --> 00:37:52.780 various reasons to strive for superior alternatives. 00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:56.280 Yeah, it's just, you know, personal feeling, 00:37:56.380 --> 00:38:00.559 I feel frustrated when, you know, vegans or vegan 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:04.300 advocates get into the, you know, science of 00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:10.159 nutrition talk and talk about B12, B6, B this 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:15.079 and that. You know that the other side can just 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:19.139 point to other studies and make the same kind 00:38:19.139 --> 00:38:24.039 of sciencey arguments. It's just endless conversation 00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:28.920 when we have those bigger, stronger arguments 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.659 in the presence of, again, antibiotics, mercury, 00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:38.070 and so on. So yeah, I just feel it's a missed 00:38:38.070 --> 00:38:42.989 opportunity. Do you think that feeding more and 00:38:42.989 --> 00:38:49.090 more pets a vegan diet will influence the diet 00:38:49.090 --> 00:38:52.449 of their owners, of their guardians? Do you think 00:38:52.449 --> 00:38:55.969 it will have an effect in veganizing the general 00:38:55.969 --> 00:39:00.360 public? Great question. see something in the 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:02.000 back of my mind says i've read something academic 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.860 on this but it's not coming to mind so i'll have 00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:06.159 to give you anecdotal evidence instead as i said 00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.250 look i've i've sold a lot of pet food in my time 00:39:09.250 --> 00:39:12.389 and you know i've spoken probably to hundreds 00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:15.409 if not thousands thousands of guardians and every 00:39:15.409 --> 00:39:18.309 now and again i do meet a vegan guardian who 00:39:18.309 --> 00:39:20.449 says oh well i wasn't vegan until my dog turned 00:39:20.449 --> 00:39:22.190 vegan you know my dog turned vegan for some health 00:39:22.190 --> 00:39:24.170 based reason you know the vet asked them to be 00:39:24.170 --> 00:39:27.070 put on a hypoallergenic diet or you know i was 00:39:27.070 --> 00:39:28.769 concerned with the environmental impact and so 00:39:28.769 --> 00:39:32.329 on and after that they became more open to the 00:39:32.329 --> 00:39:34.670 use of vegan diet on themselves, you know, vegan, 00:39:34.670 --> 00:39:36.650 vegan ingredients, plant based ingredients. And 00:39:36.650 --> 00:39:37.929 so I think it's certainly possible. And I think 00:39:37.929 --> 00:39:40.349 it's a it'll be an interesting avenue to explore. 00:39:41.889 --> 00:39:44.849 But I think that could be a positive case from 00:39:44.849 --> 00:39:46.730 an advocacy point of view. And we might see some 00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:48.530 beneficial spillover effects there for sure. 00:39:49.269 --> 00:39:54.289 A few words about the I guess the words we use 00:39:54.289 --> 00:39:58.849 the terms to describe, you know, pets, you use 00:39:58.849 --> 00:40:02.409 the word guardian instead of owner. Do you feel 00:40:02.409 --> 00:40:06.849 it makes a difference to use that kind of vocabulary 00:40:06.849 --> 00:40:15.869 to talk about pets, companion animals? Great 00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:17.829 question. I mean, look, this is a question we 00:40:17.829 --> 00:40:20.329 grapple with in various different fields, I guess 00:40:20.329 --> 00:40:23.469 you could say, as we learn to dismantle some 00:40:23.469 --> 00:40:25.289 of the systems of oppression around us, right? 00:40:25.550 --> 00:40:28.849 There's language when it comes to feminism, when 00:40:28.849 --> 00:40:31.750 it comes to racism, when it comes to sexuality 00:40:31.750 --> 00:40:36.269 and gender that various people encourage us to 00:40:36.269 --> 00:40:38.969 change in order to be more inclusive and more 00:40:38.969 --> 00:40:43.510 respectful to others. It's really difficult because 00:40:43.510 --> 00:40:47.369 changing language is a complex thing that is 00:40:47.369 --> 00:40:50.809 never going to be done all in one go with complete 00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:54.650 agreement from everyone. But I am relatively 00:40:54.650 --> 00:40:57.329 convinced that we should be using language that 00:40:57.329 --> 00:41:01.150 is inclusive and also aligns with our ethical 00:41:01.150 --> 00:41:05.050 views right so in this case why do i say companion 00:41:05.050 --> 00:41:07.130 animals instead of pets and why do i say guardians 00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:09.730 of owners because the connotations around pets 00:41:09.730 --> 00:41:12.289 and owner is there's an inferiority inferior 00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:15.250 and superior element to it and also particularly 00:41:15.250 --> 00:41:16.989 the owner there's a sense of ownership right 00:41:16.989 --> 00:41:19.989 um and it's it's my sense that we shouldn't own 00:41:19.989 --> 00:41:22.869 animals as commodities but rather care for and 00:41:22.869 --> 00:41:25.130 respect them as living beings so in that sense 00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:28.639 i think there's you know a good case to change 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.659 our language in that respect. I guess a caveat 00:41:31.659 --> 00:41:34.760 to that is that changing language is generally 00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:38.320 messy. And I probably wouldn't expect anyone 00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:41.579 to only say companion animal and only say guardian. 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:44.059 And indeed, I often say pet owner, you know, 00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.960 pet and owner as well, depending on the context 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.599 and depending on, you know, what happens to come 00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:53.739 out of my mouth. But I do think it is helpful 00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:55.880 generally speaking, perhaps depending on your 00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:58.800 audience, but generally speaking. to use language 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.679 that aligns with our sort of, you know, ethical 00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:05.260 frameworks and our desire to keep spaces inclusive, 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.139 because language does make a difference to how 00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:10.199 we think about the world, conceive the world 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:15.360 around us. I think we should do what we can to 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.860 use language to promote the future that we want 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:21.860 to see. Yeah, there are so many perspectives 00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:26.500 on on this question. Anne Heritage, again, the 00:42:26.500 --> 00:42:31.000 owner of Brembles, I asked her the same question. 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:36.300 She said, she responded, we should, you know, 00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:39.960 expose the reality, the violent reality of this 00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:43.639 system. And so, yeah, we should be talking about 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:48.980 owners and pets and so on. I don't know if you 00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:53.750 ever read Matthew Scully, but he talks about 00:42:53.750 --> 00:42:56.809 re appropriating, you know, that language and 00:42:56.809 --> 00:43:01.789 the fact that pet was endearing to him. So yeah, 00:43:01.929 --> 00:43:05.030 so many perspectives. Yeah, really interesting. 00:43:05.170 --> 00:43:06.889 I mean, it's a it's a constant debate, right? 00:43:07.489 --> 00:43:10.489 And it's never going to be easy. But I think 00:43:10.489 --> 00:43:14.619 there is Certainly things we can do to make a 00:43:14.619 --> 00:43:16.719 difference here. And, you know, that's typically 00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:19.119 why I use these words, you know, generally speaking 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.159 when I can. So long as it doesn't become the 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.679 hill we die on, I think. I think there's still 00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:28.659 space to, you know, allow for individual preference 00:43:28.659 --> 00:43:31.139 and allow for mistakes, you know, and also to 00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:33.019 allow for certain language be used in certain 00:43:33.019 --> 00:43:35.199 spaces. If you're in a more conservative space 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.940 where, you know, saying guardian instead of owner 00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:41.079 is going to really switch off a room. you know, 00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:43.639 maybe it's best to say owner in that context. 00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:47.179 But yeah, generally speaking, I'm with you on 00:43:47.179 --> 00:43:50.579 using the language we want to use when possible. 00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:56.519 You mentioned a few companies that are developing 00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:00.300 and you worked for one that are developing pet 00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:07.440 food. Is this lucrative? Are they going to, you 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:14.539 know, become bankrupt in the near future. What 00:44:14.539 --> 00:44:18.420 is the state of this new plant based pet food 00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:22.599 economy? Good question. Yeah. Yeah, look, it 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:26.289 is lucrative. There's one statistic I can give 00:44:26.289 --> 00:44:28.809 you that speaks to that. The vegan pet food market 00:44:28.809 --> 00:44:31.150 is growing at a faster rate than the pet food 00:44:31.150 --> 00:44:34.610 market overall, right? So it's about 4 .6 % compound 00:44:34.610 --> 00:44:36.510 annual growth rate for the pet food market as 00:44:36.510 --> 00:44:39.889 a whole. Vegan pet food is about 7 to 9 % CAGR. 00:44:40.250 --> 00:44:43.809 So we're seeing there that there's a... particular 00:44:43.809 --> 00:44:46.849 growth of this category at the moment. And that 00:44:46.849 --> 00:44:49.989 is, you know, most likely motivated by the concerns 00:44:49.989 --> 00:44:52.030 we've been talking about the interest in alternatives. 00:44:53.190 --> 00:44:54.769 So that's one thing to say the second thing to 00:44:54.769 --> 00:44:56.510 say and I can talk about Omni because it's one 00:44:56.510 --> 00:44:58.550 of the companies I know best. There are others 00:44:58.550 --> 00:45:03.250 that will also be doing well. But the growth 00:45:03.250 --> 00:45:05.409 rate of these companies is very impressive. And 00:45:05.409 --> 00:45:07.769 certainly Omni is now at a point where it's receiving 00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:11.059 relatively mainstream appeal it was on dragons 00:45:11.059 --> 00:45:14.920 den which is the uh us equivalent of shark tank 00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:18.099 um you know going in front of five celebrity 00:45:18.099 --> 00:45:20.139 investors and securing investment from two of 00:45:20.139 --> 00:45:24.349 them um and a lot of these companies are growing 00:45:24.349 --> 00:45:26.769 very quickly and achieving incredible things. 00:45:27.050 --> 00:45:28.789 Another company, The Pack, along with Meatly, 00:45:28.889 --> 00:45:31.829 as I said, were able to develop the world's first 00:45:31.829 --> 00:45:36.570 cultivated meat -based pet treats ever and feed 00:45:36.570 --> 00:45:38.750 it to dogs in the UK. These are really impressive 00:45:38.750 --> 00:45:40.230 achievements and it's happening at breakneck 00:45:40.230 --> 00:45:44.429 speed. So this is an active and rapidly growing 00:45:44.429 --> 00:45:48.150 industry that we should, I think, do our best 00:45:48.150 --> 00:45:51.840 to support as it as it real realizes the benefits 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:56.960 that it's seeking to realize. It's funny. It's 00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.420 so it's called shark tank is called dragon stand 00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:05.559 in the UK. Right. The Canada version of that 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:11.380 is also called shark tanks. But the Quebec version, 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:17.880 which is French Canada is called So it's like 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:22.840 the literal translation of the UK one. Funny. 00:46:24.940 --> 00:46:27.820 Yeah, that's interesting. Scary animal is basically 00:46:27.820 --> 00:46:30.300 the vibe, right? The place where the scary animals 00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:33.300 are, it's interesting. But yeah, I guess you 00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:36.380 guys are bridging the Europeans or at least the 00:46:36.380 --> 00:46:40.000 UK from the North Americans there. Yeah, I wonder 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:45.789 why they made that choice. If we want to invest 00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:50.489 in those companies, how do we do so? Yeah, good 00:46:50.489 --> 00:46:55.050 question. So I have been aware of some companies 00:46:55.050 --> 00:46:57.289 that have offered public shares through Cedars 00:46:57.289 --> 00:46:59.190 and platforms like this. I'm not aware of any 00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:03.159 that are available at the moment. These companies 00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:04.820 may go public at some point, but I don't know 00:47:04.820 --> 00:47:06.800 when and I wouldn't expect it to be immediately. 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:08.800 So, you know, feel free to have a look online. 00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:10.840 There'll be lists of vegan pet food companies 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:13.679 as a incomplete but still useful list on one 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:16.360 of the websites in the show notes that I'll provide 00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:19.260 to you sustainablepetfood .info. So you can have 00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:21.340 a look there and see if any are accepting investment. 00:47:21.739 --> 00:47:24.539 However, if you are an ordinary person and not 00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:26.960 an investor with, you know, piles of money to 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:29.320 spare, there's two ways I think that you could 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.059 really financially support this transition. One 00:47:34.059 --> 00:47:35.739 is if you've got a dog or cat, you could buy 00:47:35.739 --> 00:47:38.059 them vegan pet food, right? You're gonna be realizing 00:47:38.059 --> 00:47:40.480 some benefits there with regards to your pet's 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:42.679 health and with regards to the environment and 00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:45.019 the ethical impact there as well. But the other 00:47:45.019 --> 00:47:48.960 thing you can do is donate to animal charities. 00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:51.980 So I expect most of your listeners will be familiar 00:47:51.980 --> 00:47:53.960 with these, but there's various charities that 00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.239 will, meta charities that will collect funds 00:47:57.239 --> 00:47:59.900 for those who are seeking to drive positive good 00:47:59.900 --> 00:48:02.300 for animals and then distribute those, the animal 00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:05.079 movement, animal charity evaluators is one, open 00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:07.239 philanthropy I believe has an animal branch, 00:48:08.780 --> 00:48:11.059 and farm kind is another great one that's focused 00:48:11.059 --> 00:48:14.599 specifically on animals. have a look at those 00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:17.099 organizations. And if you want to donate that 00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.039 is effectively a way of investing in the pet 00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:23.920 food protein transition, among other excellent 00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:25.960 campaigns that are aimed at helping animals. 00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.820 So that can be one thing that I'd recommend if 00:48:28.820 --> 00:48:30.860 you're interested in supporting financially. 00:48:31.820 --> 00:48:38.320 And I guess lastly, why did you decide to, you 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:43.590 know, focus your work on this area of the fight 00:48:43.590 --> 00:48:48.070 for animal rights? Yeah, good question. Two reasons 00:48:48.070 --> 00:48:50.369 really, or two categories of reason. One is the 00:48:50.369 --> 00:48:53.429 sort of maybe the intellectual sort of more businessy 00:48:53.429 --> 00:48:55.489 side of things. And the other is the emotional 00:48:55.489 --> 00:48:58.210 one, right? The intellectual one was to say, 00:48:58.230 --> 00:49:01.030 I've been interested in effective altruism for 00:49:01.030 --> 00:49:03.550 a few years. So I was interested in what can 00:49:03.550 --> 00:49:06.349 I do that is important neglected and tractable, 00:49:06.510 --> 00:49:09.489 how can I do the most good? That led me quite 00:49:09.489 --> 00:49:11.070 quickly to the animal movement, which I felt 00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:13.489 was incredibly neglected, incredibly important, 00:49:13.590 --> 00:49:17.530 and I hope very tractable. And so quite quickly, 00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:19.489 I started working on movement and found that 00:49:19.489 --> 00:49:22.469 very inspiring and invigorating. And from there, 00:49:22.469 --> 00:49:24.230 I sort of looked further still and thought, okay, 00:49:24.230 --> 00:49:25.869 I'm a young person, I've got my career ahead 00:49:25.869 --> 00:49:28.469 of me, where do I start here? It looks like there's, 00:49:28.469 --> 00:49:31.340 you know, a lot of sort of a lot of opportunities 00:49:31.340 --> 00:49:33.280 that are right for the taking, but where would 00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:36.139 be best? Where can I go? And within the animal 00:49:36.139 --> 00:49:38.900 movement, I think the pet food protein transition 00:49:38.900 --> 00:49:41.300 is a particularly important, particularly neglected 00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:43.940 and particularly tractable sub -cause area, if 00:49:43.940 --> 00:49:46.099 you like, particularly important because, as 00:49:46.099 --> 00:49:48.820 I've said, you've got about, you know, nine to 00:49:48.820 --> 00:49:52.119 20 % of global farmed animals, farmed land animals 00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:54.519 and, you know, many more aquatic animals as well 00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.750 who are being farmed for pet foods. you know, 00:49:57.750 --> 00:50:00.050 if we were to transition away from meat based 00:50:00.050 --> 00:50:02.949 diets, we'd be saving about 6 billion land animals 00:50:02.949 --> 00:50:05.670 globally from slaughter. So there's an importance 00:50:05.670 --> 00:50:09.150 there in the numbers. There's a neglectedness 00:50:09.150 --> 00:50:11.710 in the sense that despite this occupying a pretty 00:50:11.710 --> 00:50:15.329 significant proportion of, you know, animal consumption, 00:50:16.230 --> 00:50:17.869 there are hard, there's hardly anyone in the 00:50:17.869 --> 00:50:19.389 animal community working on this. You know, I 00:50:19.389 --> 00:50:23.010 know there's a podcast that your audience is 00:50:23.010 --> 00:50:26.150 a sort of animal advocacy audience. So really, 00:50:26.630 --> 00:50:29.860 may I address you all directly when I say this 00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:31.760 is severely neglected, and at the moment we've 00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:35.219 got quite a large chunk of animal consumption 00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:38.239 being focused on with really just a few people 00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:40.420 in the movement. I'm one, Professor Andrew Knight 00:50:40.420 --> 00:50:43.940 is another, and there's a few others doing excellent 00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:47.139 work as well, but it's really not many given 00:50:47.139 --> 00:50:50.960 the importance of this field. and then on top 00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:52.760 of that I see this is particularly tractable 00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:55.719 you know dietary change in the human space is 00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:58.179 you know worth fighting for but certainly challenging 00:50:58.179 --> 00:51:00.639 and we're learning that as we go dietary change 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:04.340 in the pet space is is under explored and potentially 00:51:04.340 --> 00:51:06.380 even more tractable than the human case you know 00:51:06.380 --> 00:51:09.719 I see certain elements of that such as you know 00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:12.869 when you transition a dog or a cat it's typically 00:51:12.869 --> 00:51:14.670 not the case that they'll just suddenly one day 00:51:14.670 --> 00:51:16.070 decide that they don't like it anymore and they'll 00:51:16.070 --> 00:51:17.690 go something else. You can often feed that food 00:51:17.690 --> 00:51:20.610 pretty much forever so long as the guardian is 00:51:20.610 --> 00:51:24.269 motivated to rebuy. There's some elements here 00:51:24.269 --> 00:51:26.170 to say that this is really tractable health elements 00:51:26.170 --> 00:51:31.409 as well. So from that sense, that drew me to 00:51:31.409 --> 00:51:34.219 work on pet food and I've been working on the 00:51:34.219 --> 00:51:36.380 business side of things for a bit, but now focusing 00:51:36.380 --> 00:51:39.460 on research for the last sort of, you know, one, 00:51:39.460 --> 00:51:42.480 one and a half, two and a half years now. The 00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:44.480 emotional argument is much simpler. The emotional 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:47.840 reason, you know, I love dogs, dogs and cats, 00:51:48.019 --> 00:51:51.440 I love animals. It's a pleasure to spend my day 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.980 thinking about them and often meeting them if 00:51:53.980 --> 00:51:57.300 I'm selling pet food. And yeah, I really enjoy 00:51:57.300 --> 00:51:59.159 that. And so it was great to be able to focus 00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:03.530 on. sort of an air of this movement that I love 00:52:03.530 --> 00:52:07.690 as well. So that's been lovely too. And is it 00:52:07.690 --> 00:52:13.329 smooth sailing? Or are you meeting like opposition 00:52:13.329 --> 00:52:17.590 from the animal industry? From sort of animal 00:52:17.590 --> 00:52:21.170 agriculture industries, do you mean? Yes, I'm 00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:26.070 thinking for instance, about advertisements against 00:52:26.070 --> 00:52:30.929 plant based meat alternatives. Is there a version 00:52:30.929 --> 00:52:35.969 of that for plant based pet food? Yeah, look, 00:52:36.050 --> 00:52:38.329 you know, I've heard less of it from an advertising 00:52:38.329 --> 00:52:41.550 perspective. I expect it exists to an extent. 00:52:42.309 --> 00:52:46.260 I'm aware of I'm aware of cases of animal industries 00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:49.539 being concerned and trying to prevent the growth 00:52:49.539 --> 00:52:52.480 of this movement and the growth of the research, 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:56.059 so that can exist to an extent. However, it's 00:52:56.059 --> 00:52:57.860 also worth saying, and this is similar to the 00:52:57.860 --> 00:53:02.280 human case, often meat -based companies and animal 00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:04.159 industries see this as an opportunity as well. 00:53:04.539 --> 00:53:08.400 So, Mars, one of the biggest pet food conglomerates 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.809 in the world, do invest in some vegan pet food 00:53:11.809 --> 00:53:14.429 companies, and that's not really a surprise. 00:53:14.449 --> 00:53:18.050 They see it as a fast growing category. And while 00:53:18.050 --> 00:53:20.929 there is some advertisement moving against vegan, 00:53:21.070 --> 00:53:22.949 it's typically just from individual meat based 00:53:22.949 --> 00:53:24.969 companies who just want to show off their own 00:53:24.969 --> 00:53:27.590 products and discredit the competition. So I 00:53:27.590 --> 00:53:29.409 don't see that as too much of a coordinated effort. 00:53:30.150 --> 00:53:32.349 So while there is always challenge, and there's 00:53:32.349 --> 00:53:33.969 always going to be people with vested interests 00:53:33.969 --> 00:53:36.170 to prevent this, and we haven't discussed too 00:53:36.170 --> 00:53:37.690 much that, you know, the whole of the meat based 00:53:37.690 --> 00:53:39.750 industry in the veterinary community, but You 00:53:39.750 --> 00:53:41.230 know, I would love to see you bring for example, 00:53:41.449 --> 00:53:44.610 Crystal Heath on who's a veterinarian by trade 00:53:44.610 --> 00:53:47.769 who also has done a lot of good work here. And 00:53:47.769 --> 00:53:50.949 she could tell you more about that. The evidence 00:53:50.949 --> 00:53:53.309 is really strong, you know, and that's why you're 00:53:53.309 --> 00:53:56.190 seeing veterinary institutions changing their 00:53:56.190 --> 00:53:58.030 guidance. That's why you're seeing more people 00:53:58.030 --> 00:54:00.349 becoming interested from a consumer perspective, 00:54:00.610 --> 00:54:03.949 and from a movement perspective. And that's why 00:54:03.949 --> 00:54:05.769 while there's always opposition to an extent. 00:54:06.010 --> 00:54:08.670 I feel very positive about the trajectory of 00:54:08.670 --> 00:54:11.750 this movement and this sector as a whole. Yes, 00:54:11.750 --> 00:54:17.090 I love Crystal. I had her on the show, maybe 00:54:17.090 --> 00:54:22.570 three times, a few times. She's amazing. Okay, 00:54:22.789 --> 00:54:24.949 great. So did you want to add something Billy 00:54:24.949 --> 00:54:27.849 before I stopped the recording? Yeah, so look, 00:54:27.989 --> 00:54:31.289 what I'd say in summary, is that for anyone in 00:54:31.289 --> 00:54:33.590 the animal movement or for people who care about 00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:37.059 environmental sustainability or the ethics of 00:54:37.059 --> 00:54:39.980 animal farming or indeed the health of companion 00:54:39.980 --> 00:54:44.460 animals. This is a important and neglected field 00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:49.019 that would particularly value your support, I 00:54:49.019 --> 00:54:51.239 think. The arguments are pretty clear now. We 00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:54.159 could save six billion land animals from slaughter 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:56.960 each year under a global transition to vegan 00:54:56.960 --> 00:55:00.800 diets for dogs alone, let alone cats. On top 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:03.639 of that, we could save more greenhouse gases 00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:08.679 than the UK emits each year, 1 .5 times more, 00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:10.559 in fact. So I could essentially rest easy, I 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:12.880 think, under that scenario. That's for dogs alone. 00:55:13.820 --> 00:55:15.679 And land use savings, I believe, larger than 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:17.599 Mexico and Germany combined for dogs and cats. 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:19.599 So, you know, there's some really significant 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:22.500 environmental benefits here and some significant 00:55:23.309 --> 00:55:25.590 ethical benefits there as well. On top of that, 00:55:25.829 --> 00:55:28.590 we've got strong research here on the health 00:55:28.590 --> 00:55:30.710 benefits for dogs and cats. So I said earlier 00:55:30.710 --> 00:55:32.849 it was 12 and 13. That's not correct. We've got 00:55:32.849 --> 00:55:35.230 12 studies at the moment looking at the health 00:55:35.230 --> 00:55:37.269 impacts of dogs fed vegan and meat based diets. 00:55:37.610 --> 00:55:40.250 11 of those currently support the use of vegan 00:55:40.250 --> 00:55:42.969 diets. Three studies for cats. All three of those 00:55:42.969 --> 00:55:44.570 currently support the use of vegan diets for 00:55:44.570 --> 00:55:46.489 cats. We've also got a systematic literature 00:55:46.489 --> 00:55:49.159 review. that supports the use of these diets 00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:51.000 as well and confirms that evidence. So, you know, 00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:54.099 this is a really strong body of evidence. And 00:55:54.099 --> 00:55:57.320 now really is the time to accelerate this transition, 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:00.440 certainly for dogs where fortunately most of 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:02.840 the impacts are we've got more dogs globally 00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:07.699 than cats. It's about 535 million dogs. 475 million 00:56:07.699 --> 00:56:09.559 cats globally okay so we've got more dogs than 00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:11.719 cats and dogs are bigger so they're eating more 00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:14.039 right as well so the impact of dogs are much 00:56:14.039 --> 00:56:16.000 more significant unfortunately it's easier to 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:19.079 transition them at the moment anyway and now 00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:21.139 that's why we're seeing reputable commercial 00:56:21.139 --> 00:56:23.559 companies creating vegan products we're seeing 00:56:23.559 --> 00:56:27.559 veterinary institutions opposing their opposition, 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:31.059 taking away their opposition to these diets. 00:56:32.059 --> 00:56:34.380 And what I'd really love to see as well is more 00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:37.500 people in the animal movement coming on and working 00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:41.199 on this issue, talking to consumers, working 00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:44.239 with veterinary bodies, with governments, with 00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:47.380 regulators, with the pet industry to normalize 00:56:47.380 --> 00:56:51.429 these diets as quickly as possible. I hope that's 00:56:51.429 --> 00:56:54.730 compelling. If you'd like to learn more sustainablepetfood 00:56:54.730 --> 00:56:57.630 .info is a great site. There'll be some other 00:56:57.630 --> 00:56:59.769 resources in the show notes and please feel free 00:56:59.769 --> 00:57:27.719 to contact me as well. Well, let me say this. 00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:33.179 You convinced me to order vegan cat food for 00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:39.059 my cat and I will let her decide judge on you 00:57:39.059 --> 00:57:43.199 know if it's good enough or not but yeah you 00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:47.380 you convinced me to do this much and yeah I'm 00:57:47.380 --> 00:57:51.000 I invite people to also you know follow my example 00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:53.579 very good well looking forward to hearing how 00:57:53.579 --> 00:57:57.139 they like it do let me know and yeah thank you 00:57:57.139 --> 00:57:59.920 very much for the time today it's been a pleasure 00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:02.530 chatting with you Thank you so much, Billy. Thank 00:58:02.530 --> 00:58:05.449 you for all of your good work. Thank you everyone 00:58:05.449 --> 00:58:08.610 for listening. I kindly invite you to share this 00:58:08.610 --> 00:58:11.469 podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage 00:58:11.469 --> 00:58:15.429 more people to take action. Again, thank you 00:58:15.429 --> 00:58:18.429 so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday 00:58:18.429 --> 00:58:19.869 for a new episode.