Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening
to The Vegan Report. Today, a solo episode. I
don't record many solo episodes, but recently
I got into the rabbit hole of the backyard eggs
debate and felt compelled to offer my take. It
seems every vegan influencer has given it a go.
It is framed in one simple question. Are backyard
eggs ethical or not? Or can you still call yourself
vegan if you eat backyard eggs, eggs from your
backyard hen? Now, that is my problem right there.
The very framing of this debate. While we are
wasting time debating the French philosophical
issue of backyard eggs, we are missing out on
an opportunity to denounce the very legality
of owning backyard chickens. Under our watch,
without much pushback, we have let states and
municipalities, suburbs and even important urban
centers change zoning laws to legalize backyard
chickens and other forms of livestock farming.
Let me read you something Katie Shimormino has
written on her very popular blog, The Chicken
Chick. As of 2011, 90 % of US cities allowed
raising of backyard chickens, including New York,
Denver, and Los Angeles. In fact, a follower
of mine on Facebook kept chickens on the veranda
of his Manhattan's Upper West Side apartment
in a custom -built coop that was included as
a selling feature for a $1 .2 million asking
price. She adds, Sadly, many municipalities still
don't get it, including mine until very recently.
Over a period of several years, I defended two
cease and desist letters and a lawsuit brought
by the towns seeking to force me to get rid of
my chickens. I ultimately beat City Hall and,
with the lawsuit in the rearview mirror, I led
the charge to legalize chickens in my town, succeeding
in spite of persistent political Now, Katie,
you should know that it's not just politicians
that oppose backyard chickens. Their constituents
do not like the idea either. According to a 2013
USDA study, only 4 out of 10 respondents were
in favor of allowing chickens in their communities
and would not mind if their neighbors owned chickens.
An understandable position, given that backyard
chickens can be very noisy and the source of
just foul odors. Also, over half of respondents,
55 .6%, believed that chickens in urban areas
will lead to more illnesses in humans. Oh, and
that is one frightening prospect. I remember
raising this issue with Colin, a microbiologist,
and one of the first guests of my show, I think.
from episode two of the Vegan Report. And Liz
White, the leader of the Animal Protection Party
of Canada, take a listen to the scary things
they had to say. They detect which ones are the
males and they throw them into a wood chipper.
I mean, the male chickens are just shredded to
pieces from day one. And I don't think people
realize that that's 50 % of the chicken population.
So even if you're going with the backyard chicken
thing, you're still killing a lot of chickens.
From the get -go, yes. From the start, before
you even purchase that chicken. For every one
chicken you purchase, another one has already
died. And I think even then, we've had a lot
of... with disease outbreaks. I do definitely
foresee the... I wouldn't be surprised if one
of these days there's a city that does allow
backyard chickens that says that we need to...
Everybody who has a chicken, you need to call
them because we have a huge avian influenza outbreak.
A lot of these larger chicken facilities are
huge areas where... these diseases can proliferate.
And that will absolutely spread into these neighborhood
backyard chickens. And, you know, I've heard
some instances of avian influenza jumping from
poultry to humans. I think as time goes on, we're
going to see more and more cases of that. And
we're going to see a lot of instances where that
happens, where people do have backyard chickens.
I think it's going to be a huge, huge thing.
Huge problem, yes. And then, of course, they
will have to get rid of them, not in the most
human way, if there is such a problem. No, they
burn them alive. They drown them in foam. They
do all sorts of just because you have to kill,
you know, countless numbers of chickens. So they
do it in the most economically feasible way possible.
You know, and that's often by flooding. I think
the most common way to do a mass calling is they
will flood it with the foam that firefighters
use. I can't imagine that's that can't be very
enjoyable for the chickens, I'm sure. Yeah, it
happens. You know, there were laws passed in
many Quebec cities here that authorized people
to keep chickens in their backyard. But don't
you think there is a risk of contamination with
this whole, you know, even influenza thing? Are
we playing with fire? by allowing people to keep
chickens in their backyard? I actually think
we're playing with fire, yes. We were able to
get the city of Toronto to back off the bylaw
that we're allowing chickens in the backyard.
It was a big fight because people wanted those
chickens. And, you know, it's like, you think
about it, you rent them. You don't take, you
know, you rent these little animals and you rent
the housing for them. You stick them in your
backyard and you love them for a few months until
they stop laying, then you send them back. And
nobody knows what happens to them. The owners
of some of the rented chicken facilities say,
oh, well, you know, we take care of your chickens
and love them and you'll get your same chickens
back. But nobody really knows. And, you know,
and beyond that, that avian influenza is very,
very... And you can't stop other birds from coming
into your backyard with the chickens. And, you
know, and that's how the contamination happens.
So the city of Toronto decided to ban it altogether,
which was great. But many other communities are
going on as though nothing's happening. And,
you know, the problem with avian influenza is
it's transmitting to other animals and it's been
transmitted to people. from animals. It hasn't
transmitted from people to people yet, but this
is a virus that is evolving. And, and somehow
we think that it's all good and that nothing's
going to happen. And, you know, we could be in
a situation like COVID all over again and much
more serious because there are no vaccines for
it. And, and, and I think we're just playing
with fire. So yeah. I would recommend every community
in Canada ban backyard chickens. Those backyard
chickens are not only a public health crisis
in the making, they are also a magnet for wildlife
predators. Coyotes, foxes, wolves and bears that
can harm your pets, your children and yourself.
Because of backyard chickens, those... once rare
encounters with wildlife predators have been
on the rise. Of course, the bleeding -heart animal
lovers we are cannot help but think that those
encounters are most often fatal for wildlife.
The headline of one Telegram article from June
reads, Got a wild animal damaging your property?
It's legal to kill it. in Massachusetts. Further,
the article specifies some examples of when this
law is used include when wild animals damage
crops, tree nurseries, or beehives, or when they
kill livestock or backyard chickens, which count
as property. Apart from wildlife protection,
there are many more compelling reasons for animal
rights activists to advocate for the criminalization
of backyard chickens or any form of urban farming
involving livestock. What about the fact that
this has become a new lucrative market for big
ag? As activists, we try hard to make animal
farmers profit margins even thinner than they
currently are, but they have found in backyard
chickens a new promising source of revenue. According
to Fact .MR, the global chicken coop market is
estimated to reach a valuation of $997 .7 million
in 2025 and further expand to end up at $1 .5
$59 billion by the end of 2035. This is a rocket
growth. This is money in the pockets of chicken
breeders, of insect farmers, yes that's a thing,
and insect chicken treats are now in every pet
shop you know, food distributors, and more related
businesses. In North America, backyard chickens
have been commodified to the point of becoming
one more item you can purchase online and have
shipped by mail to your doorstep. Again, Liz
White, leader of the Animal Protection Party
of Canada. What is also shocking to many people
is that we mail chicks out to people who want
backyard chickens. So we put them in Canada Post
and mail them. And you know, you look at this
whole situation. Not only is it cruel and ridiculous,
because the eggs cost about $2 an egg, it is
also the cruelty and the insanity of it. What
do you mean by mailing chicks? Well, they put
them in a box, they seal the box, they put a
stamp on it, and they put it in Canada Post.
Chicks. Live chicks. And is it only in Ontario,
I think? Is there a limit to how many days? It's
Canada Post. Canada Post does it. Required to
do it. And they could spend days in that box?
Well, they indicate that there's live, something
live in the box. So it's supposed to get moving.
But you can imagine, we had a strike. It happened
at a time when the chicks probably aren't moving,
but we had a strike. If that had happened in
the summertime, the chicks would have died. They
would have simply starved to death or suffocated.
And so, you know, you look at this thing and
you think, that's just cruelty. There's no way
around it. You can't do this. And yet it's accepted
as a... As a standard way to get chicks. We've
tried to fight it, but we haven't been successful
at this point. It's pretty shocking what we do
to animals, isn't it? Add to that how chickens
are being neglected and abandoned by their owners.
We've been hearing about stories of cruelty against
cats and dogs for more than a century. The SPCA
is 200 years old and we still need it. Do you
think the general public treats pet chickens
any better? Or a better question, are they even
able to care decently for chickens? And the answer
is a resounding no. Because in most cases, they
do not even have access to veterinary healthcare,
which is the bare minimum a responsible owner
should be able to provide. I live in a place
where it is legal to keep backyard chickens.
It has been legal for years now. But the closest
veterinary clinic that accepts chickens is hours
away. I called the biggest. Veterinary Hospital
in the province of Quebec to get some more information.
They're located in a city called Saint -Hyacinthe.
Take a listen. Welcome to the Centre Hospitalier
Universitaire Vétérinaire de l 'Université de
Montréal located in Saint -Hyacinthe. For an
emergency concerning a dog, a cat, or an exotic
animal, dial 1. Wait while I transfer your call.
So, in this case, chickens are considered an
exotic animal. Oh, yes, hello. Hi, my name is
Ryan and I'm calling to get some information
about the service you could provide for backyard
chickens. I can try and help you since I have
chickens myself, but this is not something we
do very often. Okay, because I was referred to
you, I was told that... Yes, everybody refers
us everything because everybody thinks we do
everything, but we don't. I can help you. Of
course. So I guess my first question is, do you
know of any veterinarian that specializes in
backyard chickens? There's no specialty for that,
but there are some vets that do take care of
them. Like you want them to come to your house?
Well, sure. Or I can travel to them. Okay. And
where are you located? I'm located in... Okay.
Okay, there's nothing really quite close to you.
Yeah, Sherbrooke is like maybe three hours away
from me. Yeah. I have some, like, on the north
shore, like the Garda, you would have to take
the Travertine. That's way too far. Laval. Is
Shawinigan closer? I mean, sure. Like I said,
there's nothing quite close to you. What seems
to be the problem with your chicken? Well, one
of the chicken, the hen, I think she has what
they call egg binding. And I don't know what
to do. I read online that you can put them in
like a bath. with some Epsom salt, and I did
that. And I don't know how many times we can
do that and if there is another solution. There
is no easy solution for egg binding. Let me just
check. I have one resource. No problem. Please
take your time. Okay, so it says warm bath and
you can apply KY jelly on the clo... In French
it's cloac. Yeah. Where the eggs come out from.
I'm trying to make a shot about that. And do
you feel the egg when you palpate next to the
cloac? I did not... ...examinate the hen. Okay,
you can try and give her a little bit of water
with a dropper or syringe, very slowly, so as
not to drown her. You can apply QI jelly to the
vent to help lubricate the vent to ease the passage,
if it's that. No oil. But KY is okay. It says
to not massage the vent or the abdomen so as
not to break the eggshell. Put her in a crate
in a dark, quiet room. Oh, yeah. Okay. But if
it's really that, you're going to have to take
the road if you... want to save the chicken.
They can die from egg binding if it's that. Yeah.
But there's no vet clinic really close to you
guys. Yes, I understand. It's surprising because
it's legal here to have backyard chickens, but
then there are no veterinarians that will accept
a chicken. that do backyard chickens. A lot of
doctors will do commercial chickens. But these
usually will not do backyard chickens because
of biosecurity. So it's unfortunately quite hard
to find doctors that will treat backyard chickens.
Just like exotic animals like rabbits and ferrets
and stuff like that. And it's even harder when
you're in a region where there are less vets
to start with. I see. And am I the only one in
that situation? Nope. Nope? Nope. No, I do have
backyard chicken and I have no vet for my chicken.
I do it by myself. Okay, so we're many people
in that situation. I heard about vets that can
travel to your house, but how much does that
cost? And is that service available, and how
much does that cost? We don't do home visits
here. Right now, me, I'm an employee of the small
animal clinic, so we do see some chicken inside,
but there is no... but it's about $300 for the
exam plus the care. I'm not sure if the doctor
I have today does see chickens. I'm not sure
I would have to check, but we don't do home visit.
The department that do home visit is the department
for the cows, but I have no information about
that. I would have to, you would have to call
back most probably tomorrow to speak with the
technician that works in. department okay okay
so I will monitor the situation and see yes thank
you so much for your support no no not a problem
I understand thank you have a nice day bye bye
and then there's the abandonment issue Although
hens are legal to keep, not the same could be
said about roosters. And since differentiating
the two sexes is very difficult, many owners
find themselves mistakenly raising unwanted roosters.
There's also the fact that hens stop laying eggs
after two years, which makes them automatically
undesirable. What happens to all those unwanted
roosters and undesirable hens? Well, Sanctuary
founders can answer that question. Listen to
Catherine, the founder of Safe Sanctuary, which
closed its doors recently. In the recent years,
many cities across Quebec legalized having backyard
chickens. Did you feel like this was a terrible
decision from them because i bet you know it
increased the the number of um people wanting
to the number of chickens and roosters that um
you know are abandoned and need a home i was
furious because i thought it was another um way
and that came from the government's encouragement
to say yeah get a couple of chicken you know
to keep you busy and i'll get that drink and
um knowing how people are they're fun it's interesting
for the first couple of whatever weeks months
and then what do you do with them in the winter
what do we do with them on the long term oh we
don't lay eggs anymore what do we do with them
we bring them to the sanctuary we leave them
in the street I thought it was solely responsible
to encourage people to have small rooster coops
or to have chicken coops in their backyard because
it was just having like a toy to play with. And
it wasn't on my turn and it happened. We had
tons and tons of requests to take in hens. And
roosters are another problem. are not allowed
by most municipalities. People that have a chicken
coop could have a rooster to go with the hens.
They're great protectors. The hens love to have
a protector with them. But they're not allowed.
People are not allowed. So that's another point
against roosters. People think they're aggressive.
They're not aggressive. They actually, one or
two, they usually want to be held. People don't
believe them. But bruceros have a big problem
on their hands. Actually, I'll tell you a story
about it. It happened this week. I got fooled.
I'm sorry to say. I had a young man calling me
that he had a hand in his apartment and he had
to place her. because the owner was going to
throw him out in the street. So long story, he
was supposed to bring me her in the afternoon.
He ended up bringing her at 10 o 'clock in the
evening. And I usually go to bed at 8 .30. So
by 10 o 'clock, I was really tired. I placed
her in one of our chicken coop that we have.
And I didn't really look at her. She looked a
little bit different, but, and it's only in the
morning that I looked at her and realized it
wasn't a her, it's a him. So I now have, after
having placed everybody, all my roosters, all
everybody, I now have another rooster to place.
I can't believe I got taken in because he knew
it was a rooster. I'm sure he got kicked. He
was going to get kicked out because that rooster.
That is it. We will go every morning. And not
just morning. So I have another brew city place.
Lastly, if you needed any more reason to support
a ban on backyard chickens, let me offer this
opinion. I believe that the backyard chickens
economy is doing the devil's work. of banalizing
animal exploitation, promoting the notion that
animal exploitation can be humane and sustainable,
reinforcing the status of chickens as egg layers
and meat, and restimulating people's appetite
for chicken products. In summary, I believe it
is great PR for the poultry industry. Does eating
eggs from your backyard chickens vegan? This
question just accepts the premise that owning
backyard chickens in the first place is acceptable.
Maybe if you own lots of lands in a rural area
where farming already takes place, but this idea
that vegans from the city or the suburbs can
totally adopt rescue hands put them in their
small backyards, and in fact we should give that
a cool name like micro -sanctuary, is totally
wrong. It means we have accepted that this is
the new normal, that this cultural battle was
lost, that the Katie's of this world have won,
despite the popular rejection of this practice.
To end this episode, I still want to give a direct
answer to the question of backyard eggs being
vegan or not. For that, let me pass the mic to
Nigel Osborne and Julian, the founder and executive
director of egg -true .com. Take a listen. When
it comes to eggs, what happens more is that people
come forward and say, oh, but I have backyard
chickens and I'm nice to the chickens, so I have
good eggs. So that comes out first. And that
really isn't helping in our argument because
from our point of view, it's still exploiting
the animals. You still use an animal that has
been bred to lay eggs more than is necessary
for them in nature to keep their group and their
species alive. So you're still abusing them and
you're still helping the egg industry making
eggs look natural and nice and cute little food
for the cute little hen. Julie touched on backyard.
And I think that's probably the one scenario
where you'll get people advocating for more than
anything else in terms of this humane sort of
scenario. And, you know, look, do I think a hen
living in a small backyard with a coop and places
they can... you know, dust bathe and pack off
the ground and walk around that are yes, inevitably
going to lay an egg and the person who owns the
home is going to eat that egg. Is that better
than, you know, being in a battery cage? Yeah.
I mean, let's be honest. It is better. But again,
as I may have alluded to earlier, you know, we
can often discuss the issue of treatment. And
that's what this is about. When you bring up
the issue of humane, it is an issue of treatment,
which means regardless of the scenario, you are
accepting that treating an animal as a commodity
is using them as a resource for the sole benefit
or utility of us humans. You've already crossed
that line. And now you're into this discussion
about treatment. The issue of use is really,
you know, the treatment compounds the initial
harm. The primary harm is use. And like Julie
said, you know, yeah, they're in a backyard,
but they're still going to be laying an egg every
24 to 30 hours because they have 10 ,000 years
of human intervention acting as an artificial
agent for natural selection. And here we are
in the 21st century. They're laying 350 up to
500 eggs in 18 months, which is, which is anyways,
it's, it's, it's, it's insanity. And, you know,
I have this discussion on social media with people
sometimes. And I always say to people, why did
you get a backyard hen? Is it for you or is it
for the hen? If it's for the hen, as you say,
then my recommendation is, is to find an avian
vet. take your, your hand to the avian vet and
have, um, a subcutaneous hormonal implant and
they're readily available or so in Canada, in
the U S there's issues in the U S with the FDA
and limitations on these hormonal implants, but
they will prevent that hand from laying eggs
for months and months. It isn't cheap, but you
know, I mean, We all know a visit to the vet
with our cat or dog can end up in three or four
hundred dollars just like that. So this is really
no different. And that will result in egg laying
cessation. And you talk to people on farm sanctuaries.
Where they do this to prevent egg impaction,
to limit the risks of ovarian cancer, which I
forgot to mention in the life of a hen. Julie
mentioned it earlier. So thank you for reminding
me on that. Ovarian cancer. They have the highest
rates of spontaneously occurring ovarian cancer
of any species in the world. And that is because
of their manipulated reproductive systems. So
this implant will help them. eliminate egg laying
for months on an end it has to be renewed every
so often but if the hen and their welfare is
a primary consideration which they always say
they are and it's really not they're after the
eggs without the guilt they want guilt -free
eggs but it's you know and farm sanctuary workers
will tell you time and time again the difference
in the animal's behavior personality is dramatically
is altered once these hormonal implants are put
in because this constant laying, this constant
hormonal activity in their bodies to lay eggs
almost daily takes a toll. I mean, and look at
a pregnant human being, a woman, look what she
goes through in nine months of gestation. Look
at the postpartum depression sometimes that they
can endure after giving birth. So look at all
the hormonal flux that goes on in a human being's
body, woman's body during that period of time.
Think about it for a small animal who's doing
it every 30, 36 hours for the rest of their lives
potentially. So to stop that, would really be
to the benefit from their from a health perspective
and from their own um well -being so um the answer
is no there is no humane scenario it isn't humane
and you're still crossing that that in what is
in my mind an impenetrable moral barrier with
you cannot cross that line into accepting the
idea that we can use other living beings for
for our own uh benefit Thank you everyone for
listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.