WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.940 Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening 00:00:03.940 --> 00:00:08.800 to The Vegan Report. Today, a solo episode. I 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.679 don't record many solo episodes, but recently 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:16.440 I got into the rabbit hole of the backyard eggs 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:22.519 debate and felt compelled to offer my take. It 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.839 seems every vegan influencer has given it a go. 00:00:26.660 --> 00:00:31.519 It is framed in one simple question. Are backyard 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:37.140 eggs ethical or not? Or can you still call yourself 00:00:37.140 --> 00:00:41.780 vegan if you eat backyard eggs, eggs from your 00:00:41.780 --> 00:00:45.939 backyard hen? Now, that is my problem right there. 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:51.020 The very framing of this debate. While we are 00:00:51.020 --> 00:00:54.679 wasting time debating the French philosophical 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:59.539 issue of backyard eggs, we are missing out on 00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:02.899 an opportunity to denounce the very legality 00:01:02.899 --> 00:01:07.680 of owning backyard chickens. Under our watch, 00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:11.959 without much pushback, we have let states and 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.719 municipalities, suburbs and even important urban 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:20.730 centers change zoning laws to legalize backyard 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:24.609 chickens and other forms of livestock farming. 00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:29.390 Let me read you something Katie Shimormino has 00:01:29.390 --> 00:01:32.890 written on her very popular blog, The Chicken 00:01:32.890 --> 00:01:40.530 Chick. As of 2011, 90 % of US cities allowed 00:01:40.530 --> 00:01:44.250 raising of backyard chickens, including New York, 00:01:44.450 --> 00:01:48.480 Denver, and Los Angeles. In fact, a follower 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.840 of mine on Facebook kept chickens on the veranda 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:55.920 of his Manhattan's Upper West Side apartment 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.340 in a custom -built coop that was included as 00:02:00.340 --> 00:02:05.180 a selling feature for a $1 .2 million asking 00:02:05.180 --> 00:02:11.960 price. She adds, Sadly, many municipalities still 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:16.419 don't get it, including mine until very recently. 00:02:17.020 --> 00:02:21.599 Over a period of several years, I defended two 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.300 cease and desist letters and a lawsuit brought 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:28.379 by the towns seeking to force me to get rid of 00:02:28.379 --> 00:02:33.360 my chickens. I ultimately beat City Hall and, 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:37.819 with the lawsuit in the rearview mirror, I led 00:02:37.819 --> 00:02:41.860 the charge to legalize chickens in my town, succeeding 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:48.120 in spite of persistent political Now, Katie, 00:02:48.259 --> 00:02:51.080 you should know that it's not just politicians 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:55.300 that oppose backyard chickens. Their constituents 00:02:55.300 --> 00:03:00.439 do not like the idea either. According to a 2013 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:06.349 USDA study, only 4 out of 10 respondents were 00:03:06.349 --> 00:03:10.050 in favor of allowing chickens in their communities 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:14.250 and would not mind if their neighbors owned chickens. 00:03:14.629 --> 00:03:18.590 An understandable position, given that backyard 00:03:18.590 --> 00:03:24.069 chickens can be very noisy and the source of 00:03:24.069 --> 00:03:29.979 just foul odors. Also, over half of respondents, 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:36.219 55 .6%, believed that chickens in urban areas 00:03:36.219 --> 00:03:41.060 will lead to more illnesses in humans. Oh, and 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:44.479 that is one frightening prospect. I remember 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:48.900 raising this issue with Colin, a microbiologist, 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:51.500 and one of the first guests of my show, I think. 00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:56.689 from episode two of the Vegan Report. And Liz 00:03:56.689 --> 00:03:59.430 White, the leader of the Animal Protection Party 00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:02.909 of Canada, take a listen to the scary things 00:04:02.909 --> 00:04:07.090 they had to say. They detect which ones are the 00:04:07.090 --> 00:04:09.789 males and they throw them into a wood chipper. 00:04:10.849 --> 00:04:14.569 I mean, the male chickens are just shredded to 00:04:14.569 --> 00:04:20.279 pieces from day one. And I don't think people 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:22.759 realize that that's 50 % of the chicken population. 00:04:23.259 --> 00:04:25.920 So even if you're going with the backyard chicken 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:27.560 thing, you're still killing a lot of chickens. 00:04:29.899 --> 00:04:33.259 From the get -go, yes. From the start, before 00:04:33.259 --> 00:04:35.459 you even purchase that chicken. For every one 00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:38.199 chicken you purchase, another one has already 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:46.660 died. And I think even then, we've had a lot 00:04:46.660 --> 00:04:53.470 of... with disease outbreaks. I do definitely 00:04:53.470 --> 00:04:57.069 foresee the... I wouldn't be surprised if one 00:04:57.069 --> 00:04:59.350 of these days there's a city that does allow 00:04:59.350 --> 00:05:02.050 backyard chickens that says that we need to... 00:05:02.050 --> 00:05:04.290 Everybody who has a chicken, you need to call 00:05:04.290 --> 00:05:07.170 them because we have a huge avian influenza outbreak. 00:05:08.769 --> 00:05:11.250 A lot of these larger chicken facilities are 00:05:11.250 --> 00:05:18.220 huge areas where... these diseases can proliferate. 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:21.360 And that will absolutely spread into these neighborhood 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:27.720 backyard chickens. And, you know, I've heard 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:32.959 some instances of avian influenza jumping from 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:38.339 poultry to humans. I think as time goes on, we're 00:05:38.339 --> 00:05:41.500 going to see more and more cases of that. And 00:05:41.500 --> 00:05:44.040 we're going to see a lot of instances where that 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.000 happens, where people do have backyard chickens. 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:52.120 I think it's going to be a huge, huge thing. 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:55.500 Huge problem, yes. And then, of course, they 00:05:55.500 --> 00:06:00.279 will have to get rid of them, not in the most 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:04.500 human way, if there is such a problem. No, they 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:10.160 burn them alive. They drown them in foam. They 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:13.040 do all sorts of just because you have to kill, 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:17.560 you know, countless numbers of chickens. So they 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:20.500 do it in the most economically feasible way possible. 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:25.680 You know, and that's often by flooding. I think 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.379 the most common way to do a mass calling is they 00:06:28.379 --> 00:06:30.560 will flood it with the foam that firefighters 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:35.500 use. I can't imagine that's that can't be very 00:06:35.500 --> 00:06:40.420 enjoyable for the chickens, I'm sure. Yeah, it 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:44.339 happens. You know, there were laws passed in 00:06:44.339 --> 00:06:49.600 many Quebec cities here that authorized people 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:55.399 to keep chickens in their backyard. But don't 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:57.980 you think there is a risk of contamination with 00:06:57.980 --> 00:07:02.740 this whole, you know, even influenza thing? Are 00:07:02.740 --> 00:07:07.720 we playing with fire? by allowing people to keep 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:11.120 chickens in their backyard? I actually think 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.319 we're playing with fire, yes. We were able to 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.680 get the city of Toronto to back off the bylaw 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:19.459 that we're allowing chickens in the backyard. 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:21.579 It was a big fight because people wanted those 00:07:21.579 --> 00:07:25.300 chickens. And, you know, it's like, you think 00:07:25.300 --> 00:07:29.339 about it, you rent them. You don't take, you 00:07:29.339 --> 00:07:33.319 know, you rent these little animals and you rent 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:36.480 the housing for them. You stick them in your 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.459 backyard and you love them for a few months until 00:07:38.459 --> 00:07:41.300 they stop laying, then you send them back. And 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:44.060 nobody knows what happens to them. The owners 00:07:44.060 --> 00:07:46.480 of some of the rented chicken facilities say, 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:49.259 oh, well, you know, we take care of your chickens 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:52.120 and love them and you'll get your same chickens 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:56.800 back. But nobody really knows. And, you know, 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:01.680 and beyond that, that avian influenza is very, 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:07.600 very... And you can't stop other birds from coming 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.699 into your backyard with the chickens. And, you 00:08:10.699 --> 00:08:12.839 know, and that's how the contamination happens. 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.879 So the city of Toronto decided to ban it altogether, 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.139 which was great. But many other communities are 00:08:19.139 --> 00:08:24.279 going on as though nothing's happening. And, 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:26.360 you know, the problem with avian influenza is 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.160 it's transmitting to other animals and it's been 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:35.120 transmitted to people. from animals. It hasn't 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.279 transmitted from people to people yet, but this 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:42.039 is a virus that is evolving. And, and somehow 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:47.379 we think that it's all good and that nothing's 00:08:47.379 --> 00:08:50.179 going to happen. And, you know, we could be in 00:08:50.179 --> 00:08:54.419 a situation like COVID all over again and much 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:56.639 more serious because there are no vaccines for 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.220 it. And, and, and I think we're just playing 00:09:00.220 --> 00:09:03.429 with fire. So yeah. I would recommend every community 00:09:03.429 --> 00:09:08.490 in Canada ban backyard chickens. Those backyard 00:09:08.490 --> 00:09:12.309 chickens are not only a public health crisis 00:09:12.309 --> 00:09:16.789 in the making, they are also a magnet for wildlife 00:09:16.789 --> 00:09:22.690 predators. Coyotes, foxes, wolves and bears that 00:09:22.690 --> 00:09:26.029 can harm your pets, your children and yourself. 00:09:26.970 --> 00:09:30.720 Because of backyard chickens, those... once rare 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:35.940 encounters with wildlife predators have been 00:09:35.940 --> 00:09:39.960 on the rise. Of course, the bleeding -heart animal 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:44.080 lovers we are cannot help but think that those 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:48.539 encounters are most often fatal for wildlife. 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:52.620 The headline of one Telegram article from June 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:56.620 reads, Got a wild animal damaging your property? 00:09:57.179 --> 00:10:02.490 It's legal to kill it. in Massachusetts. Further, 00:10:02.750 --> 00:10:06.090 the article specifies some examples of when this 00:10:06.090 --> 00:10:09.669 law is used include when wild animals damage 00:10:09.669 --> 00:10:15.190 crops, tree nurseries, or beehives, or when they 00:10:15.190 --> 00:10:20.070 kill livestock or backyard chickens, which count 00:10:20.070 --> 00:10:23.750 as property. Apart from wildlife protection, 00:10:24.230 --> 00:10:27.769 there are many more compelling reasons for animal 00:10:27.769 --> 00:10:31.549 rights activists to advocate for the criminalization 00:10:31.549 --> 00:10:36.429 of backyard chickens or any form of urban farming 00:10:36.429 --> 00:10:40.509 involving livestock. What about the fact that 00:10:40.509 --> 00:10:44.529 this has become a new lucrative market for big 00:10:44.529 --> 00:10:48.389 ag? As activists, we try hard to make animal 00:10:48.389 --> 00:10:52.809 farmers profit margins even thinner than they 00:10:52.809 --> 00:10:55.789 currently are, but they have found in backyard 00:10:55.789 --> 00:11:00.450 chickens a new promising source of revenue. According 00:11:00.450 --> 00:11:05.250 to Fact .MR, the global chicken coop market is 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:11.909 estimated to reach a valuation of $997 .7 million 00:11:11.909 --> 00:11:19.509 in 2025 and further expand to end up at $1 .5 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:26.879 $59 billion by the end of 2035. This is a rocket 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.299 growth. This is money in the pockets of chicken 00:11:31.299 --> 00:11:34.919 breeders, of insect farmers, yes that's a thing, 00:11:34.940 --> 00:11:38.600 and insect chicken treats are now in every pet 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:42.559 shop you know, food distributors, and more related 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.220 businesses. In North America, backyard chickens 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:49.820 have been commodified to the point of becoming 00:11:49.820 --> 00:11:54.039 one more item you can purchase online and have 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.259 shipped by mail to your doorstep. Again, Liz 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:00.460 White, leader of the Animal Protection Party 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:04.139 of Canada. What is also shocking to many people 00:12:04.139 --> 00:12:08.519 is that we mail chicks out to people who want 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.700 backyard chickens. So we put them in Canada Post 00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:15.700 and mail them. And you know, you look at this 00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:20.549 whole situation. Not only is it cruel and ridiculous, 00:12:20.629 --> 00:12:26.509 because the eggs cost about $2 an egg, it is 00:12:26.509 --> 00:12:30.950 also the cruelty and the insanity of it. What 00:12:30.950 --> 00:12:39.110 do you mean by mailing chicks? Well, they put 00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:41.990 them in a box, they seal the box, they put a 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:44.730 stamp on it, and they put it in Canada Post. 00:12:47.699 --> 00:12:52.019 Chicks. Live chicks. And is it only in Ontario, 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.600 I think? Is there a limit to how many days? It's 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.740 Canada Post. Canada Post does it. Required to 00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:02.139 do it. And they could spend days in that box? 00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:09.460 Well, they indicate that there's live, something 00:13:09.460 --> 00:13:12.940 live in the box. So it's supposed to get moving. 00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:17.149 But you can imagine, we had a strike. It happened 00:13:17.149 --> 00:13:19.389 at a time when the chicks probably aren't moving, 00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:22.250 but we had a strike. If that had happened in 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:25.690 the summertime, the chicks would have died. They 00:13:25.690 --> 00:13:28.269 would have simply starved to death or suffocated. 00:13:29.529 --> 00:13:34.509 And so, you know, you look at this thing and 00:13:34.509 --> 00:13:39.049 you think, that's just cruelty. There's no way 00:13:39.049 --> 00:13:42.870 around it. You can't do this. And yet it's accepted 00:13:42.870 --> 00:13:50.370 as a... As a standard way to get chicks. We've 00:13:50.370 --> 00:13:53.389 tried to fight it, but we haven't been successful 00:13:53.389 --> 00:13:57.710 at this point. It's pretty shocking what we do 00:13:57.710 --> 00:14:01.669 to animals, isn't it? Add to that how chickens 00:14:01.669 --> 00:14:05.929 are being neglected and abandoned by their owners. 00:14:06.889 --> 00:14:10.110 We've been hearing about stories of cruelty against 00:14:10.110 --> 00:14:14.470 cats and dogs for more than a century. The SPCA 00:14:14.470 --> 00:14:19.230 is 200 years old and we still need it. Do you 00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:22.149 think the general public treats pet chickens 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:26.929 any better? Or a better question, are they even 00:14:26.929 --> 00:14:32.230 able to care decently for chickens? And the answer 00:14:32.230 --> 00:14:36.990 is a resounding no. Because in most cases, they 00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:41.350 do not even have access to veterinary healthcare, 00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:45.549 which is the bare minimum a responsible owner 00:14:45.549 --> 00:14:49.950 should be able to provide. I live in a place 00:14:49.950 --> 00:14:52.990 where it is legal to keep backyard chickens. 00:14:53.169 --> 00:14:56.870 It has been legal for years now. But the closest 00:14:56.870 --> 00:15:01.610 veterinary clinic that accepts chickens is hours 00:15:01.610 --> 00:15:05.870 away. I called the biggest. Veterinary Hospital 00:15:05.870 --> 00:15:10.129 in the province of Quebec to get some more information. 00:15:10.649 --> 00:15:13.850 They're located in a city called Saint -Hyacinthe. 00:15:14.110 --> 00:15:18.789 Take a listen. Welcome to the Centre Hospitalier 00:15:18.789 --> 00:15:21.070 Universitaire Vétérinaire de l 'Université de 00:15:21.070 --> 00:15:24.149 Montréal located in Saint -Hyacinthe. For an 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:27.149 emergency concerning a dog, a cat, or an exotic 00:15:27.149 --> 00:15:31.710 animal, dial 1. Wait while I transfer your call. 00:15:32.409 --> 00:15:35.570 So, in this case, chickens are considered an 00:15:35.570 --> 00:15:48.509 exotic animal. Oh, yes, hello. Hi, my name is 00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:50.570 Ryan and I'm calling to get some information 00:15:50.570 --> 00:15:53.789 about the service you could provide for backyard 00:15:53.789 --> 00:16:01.350 chickens. I can try and help you since I have 00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:06.889 chickens myself, but this is not something we 00:16:06.889 --> 00:16:11.690 do very often. Okay, because I was referred to 00:16:11.690 --> 00:16:15.830 you, I was told that... Yes, everybody refers 00:16:15.830 --> 00:16:18.230 us everything because everybody thinks we do 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:23.939 everything, but we don't. I can help you. Of 00:16:23.939 --> 00:16:27.799 course. So I guess my first question is, do you 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.860 know of any veterinarian that specializes in 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:36.200 backyard chickens? There's no specialty for that, 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:41.659 but there are some vets that do take care of 00:16:41.659 --> 00:16:43.620 them. Like you want them to come to your house? 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:52.320 Well, sure. Or I can travel to them. Okay. And 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:56.580 where are you located? I'm located in... Okay. 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:09.940 Okay, there's nothing really quite close to you. 00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:31.859 Yeah, Sherbrooke is like maybe three hours away 00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:38.259 from me. Yeah. I have some, like, on the north 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:40.640 shore, like the Garda, you would have to take 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:55.380 the Travertine. That's way too far. Laval. Is 00:17:55.380 --> 00:18:01.849 Shawinigan closer? I mean, sure. Like I said, 00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:05.809 there's nothing quite close to you. What seems 00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:09.269 to be the problem with your chicken? Well, one 00:18:09.269 --> 00:18:13.450 of the chicken, the hen, I think she has what 00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:19.049 they call egg binding. And I don't know what 00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:22.950 to do. I read online that you can put them in 00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:28.730 like a bath. with some Epsom salt, and I did 00:18:28.730 --> 00:18:31.890 that. And I don't know how many times we can 00:18:31.890 --> 00:18:38.309 do that and if there is another solution. There 00:18:38.309 --> 00:18:42.789 is no easy solution for egg binding. Let me just 00:18:42.789 --> 00:18:57.529 check. I have one resource. No problem. Please 00:18:57.529 --> 00:19:05.509 take your time. Okay, so it says warm bath and 00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:10.529 you can apply KY jelly on the clo... In French 00:19:10.529 --> 00:19:15.930 it's cloac. Yeah. Where the eggs come out from. 00:19:16.150 --> 00:19:21.730 I'm trying to make a shot about that. And do 00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:24.529 you feel the egg when you palpate next to the 00:19:24.529 --> 00:19:33.579 cloac? I did not... ...examinate the hen. Okay, 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.859 you can try and give her a little bit of water 00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:40.259 with a dropper or syringe, very slowly, so as 00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:44.400 not to drown her. You can apply QI jelly to the 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:51.240 vent to help lubricate the vent to ease the passage, 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:57.420 if it's that. No oil. But KY is okay. It says 00:19:57.420 --> 00:20:02.140 to not massage the vent or the abdomen so as 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:07.140 not to break the eggshell. Put her in a crate 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:17.720 in a dark, quiet room. Oh, yeah. Okay. But if 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:22.180 it's really that, you're going to have to take 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:28.400 the road if you... want to save the chicken. 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:35.220 They can die from egg binding if it's that. Yeah. 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:39.019 But there's no vet clinic really close to you 00:20:39.019 --> 00:20:44.160 guys. Yes, I understand. It's surprising because 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.880 it's legal here to have backyard chickens, but 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.119 then there are no veterinarians that will accept 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:58.440 a chicken. that do backyard chickens. A lot of 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:07.460 doctors will do commercial chickens. But these 00:21:07.460 --> 00:21:10.319 usually will not do backyard chickens because 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.920 of biosecurity. So it's unfortunately quite hard 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.319 to find doctors that will treat backyard chickens. 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.700 Just like exotic animals like rabbits and ferrets 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:25.690 and stuff like that. And it's even harder when 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:30.349 you're in a region where there are less vets 00:21:30.349 --> 00:21:36.529 to start with. I see. And am I the only one in 00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:41.670 that situation? Nope. Nope? Nope. No, I do have 00:21:41.670 --> 00:21:43.809 backyard chicken and I have no vet for my chicken. 00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:47.970 I do it by myself. Okay, so we're many people 00:21:47.970 --> 00:21:51.720 in that situation. I heard about vets that can 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:57.099 travel to your house, but how much does that 00:21:57.099 --> 00:22:00.420 cost? And is that service available, and how 00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:04.180 much does that cost? We don't do home visits 00:22:04.180 --> 00:22:08.740 here. Right now, me, I'm an employee of the small 00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:14.380 animal clinic, so we do see some chicken inside, 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:27.819 but there is no... but it's about $300 for the 00:22:27.819 --> 00:22:31.640 exam plus the care. I'm not sure if the doctor 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:35.440 I have today does see chickens. I'm not sure 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.779 I would have to check, but we don't do home visit. 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.900 The department that do home visit is the department 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:46.559 for the cows, but I have no information about 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.059 that. I would have to, you would have to call 00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:53.319 back most probably tomorrow to speak with the 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:58.259 technician that works in. department okay okay 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:05.259 so I will monitor the situation and see yes thank 00:23:05.259 --> 00:23:10.599 you so much for your support no no not a problem 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.299 I understand thank you have a nice day bye bye 00:23:14.299 --> 00:23:18.960 and then there's the abandonment issue Although 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.839 hens are legal to keep, not the same could be 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.480 said about roosters. And since differentiating 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:30.000 the two sexes is very difficult, many owners 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.859 find themselves mistakenly raising unwanted roosters. 00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:39.460 There's also the fact that hens stop laying eggs 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:42.380 after two years, which makes them automatically 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:47.779 undesirable. What happens to all those unwanted 00:23:47.779 --> 00:23:52.680 roosters and undesirable hens? Well, Sanctuary 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.420 founders can answer that question. Listen to 00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:58.920 Catherine, the founder of Safe Sanctuary, which 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:03.900 closed its doors recently. In the recent years, 00:24:04.059 --> 00:24:09.740 many cities across Quebec legalized having backyard 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:14.700 chickens. Did you feel like this was a terrible 00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:19.500 decision from them because i bet you know it 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:24.160 increased the the number of um people wanting 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:28.079 to the number of chickens and roosters that um 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:33.200 you know are abandoned and need a home i was 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:40.440 furious because i thought it was another um way 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.740 and that came from the government's encouragement 00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:44.960 to say yeah get a couple of chicken you know 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:47.059 to keep you busy and i'll get that drink and 00:24:47.059 --> 00:24:54.200 um knowing how people are they're fun it's interesting 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:56.880 for the first couple of whatever weeks months 00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.220 and then what do you do with them in the winter 00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:01.720 what do we do with them on the long term oh we 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:03.819 don't lay eggs anymore what do we do with them 00:25:03.819 --> 00:25:06.640 we bring them to the sanctuary we leave them 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.950 in the street I thought it was solely responsible 00:25:09.950 --> 00:25:14.869 to encourage people to have small rooster coops 00:25:14.869 --> 00:25:21.069 or to have chicken coops in their backyard because 00:25:21.069 --> 00:25:26.730 it was just having like a toy to play with. And 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:29.589 it wasn't on my turn and it happened. We had 00:25:29.589 --> 00:25:33.369 tons and tons of requests to take in hens. And 00:25:33.369 --> 00:25:38.680 roosters are another problem. are not allowed 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:43.420 by most municipalities. People that have a chicken 00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:46.359 coop could have a rooster to go with the hens. 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:51.420 They're great protectors. The hens love to have 00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:54.460 a protector with them. But they're not allowed. 00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:59.880 People are not allowed. So that's another point 00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:03.519 against roosters. People think they're aggressive. 00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:06.680 They're not aggressive. They actually, one or 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.640 two, they usually want to be held. People don't 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:15.559 believe them. But bruceros have a big problem 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.099 on their hands. Actually, I'll tell you a story 00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:23.059 about it. It happened this week. I got fooled. 00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:27.980 I'm sorry to say. I had a young man calling me 00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:31.400 that he had a hand in his apartment and he had 00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:35.410 to place her. because the owner was going to 00:26:35.410 --> 00:26:42.329 throw him out in the street. So long story, he 00:26:42.329 --> 00:26:44.970 was supposed to bring me her in the afternoon. 00:26:45.190 --> 00:26:47.529 He ended up bringing her at 10 o 'clock in the 00:26:47.529 --> 00:26:50.789 evening. And I usually go to bed at 8 .30. So 00:26:50.789 --> 00:26:53.210 by 10 o 'clock, I was really tired. I placed 00:26:53.210 --> 00:26:56.569 her in one of our chicken coop that we have. 00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:03.539 And I didn't really look at her. She looked a 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:07.460 little bit different, but, and it's only in the 00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:10.599 morning that I looked at her and realized it 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:13.960 wasn't a her, it's a him. So I now have, after 00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:16.539 having placed everybody, all my roosters, all 00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:19.839 everybody, I now have another rooster to place. 00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:24.779 I can't believe I got taken in because he knew 00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.039 it was a rooster. I'm sure he got kicked. He 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.299 was going to get kicked out because that rooster. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:35.539 That is it. We will go every morning. And not 00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:39.220 just morning. So I have another brew city place. 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:44.880 Lastly, if you needed any more reason to support 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.259 a ban on backyard chickens, let me offer this 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:53.180 opinion. I believe that the backyard chickens 00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:58.200 economy is doing the devil's work. of banalizing 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:01.640 animal exploitation, promoting the notion that 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:05.500 animal exploitation can be humane and sustainable, 00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:10.759 reinforcing the status of chickens as egg layers 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:15.599 and meat, and restimulating people's appetite 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:20.619 for chicken products. In summary, I believe it 00:28:20.619 --> 00:28:26.400 is great PR for the poultry industry. Does eating 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.319 eggs from your backyard chickens vegan? This 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:34.000 question just accepts the premise that owning 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.619 backyard chickens in the first place is acceptable. 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:42.799 Maybe if you own lots of lands in a rural area 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:47.420 where farming already takes place, but this idea 00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:51.599 that vegans from the city or the suburbs can 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:55.000 totally adopt rescue hands put them in their 00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.160 small backyards, and in fact we should give that 00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.980 a cool name like micro -sanctuary, is totally 00:29:01.980 --> 00:29:06.400 wrong. It means we have accepted that this is 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.079 the new normal, that this cultural battle was 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:13.279 lost, that the Katie's of this world have won, 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:16.819 despite the popular rejection of this practice. 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.480 To end this episode, I still want to give a direct 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:26.359 answer to the question of backyard eggs being 00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.319 vegan or not. For that, let me pass the mic to 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:35.319 Nigel Osborne and Julian, the founder and executive 00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:40.460 director of egg -true .com. Take a listen. When 00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:44.119 it comes to eggs, what happens more is that people 00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:45.660 come forward and say, oh, but I have backyard 00:29:45.660 --> 00:29:47.940 chickens and I'm nice to the chickens, so I have 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:52.119 good eggs. So that comes out first. And that 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.880 really isn't helping in our argument because 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.140 from our point of view, it's still exploiting 00:29:57.140 --> 00:29:59.539 the animals. You still use an animal that has 00:29:59.539 --> 00:30:03.059 been bred to lay eggs more than is necessary 00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:06.500 for them in nature to keep their group and their 00:30:06.500 --> 00:30:09.079 species alive. So you're still abusing them and 00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:11.019 you're still helping the egg industry making 00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:15.460 eggs look natural and nice and cute little food 00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:19.039 for the cute little hen. Julie touched on backyard. 00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:25.849 And I think that's probably the one scenario 00:30:25.849 --> 00:30:32.470 where you'll get people advocating for more than 00:30:32.470 --> 00:30:36.150 anything else in terms of this humane sort of 00:30:36.150 --> 00:30:43.869 scenario. And, you know, look, do I think a hen 00:30:43.869 --> 00:30:47.809 living in a small backyard with a coop and places 00:30:47.809 --> 00:30:50.650 they can... you know, dust bathe and pack off 00:30:50.650 --> 00:30:53.589 the ground and walk around that are yes, inevitably 00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:56.329 going to lay an egg and the person who owns the 00:30:56.329 --> 00:30:59.069 home is going to eat that egg. Is that better 00:30:59.069 --> 00:31:03.930 than, you know, being in a battery cage? Yeah. 00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:09.670 I mean, let's be honest. It is better. But again, 00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:13.470 as I may have alluded to earlier, you know, we 00:31:13.470 --> 00:31:16.970 can often discuss the issue of treatment. And 00:31:16.970 --> 00:31:18.930 that's what this is about. When you bring up 00:31:18.930 --> 00:31:22.089 the issue of humane, it is an issue of treatment, 00:31:22.190 --> 00:31:28.289 which means regardless of the scenario, you are 00:31:28.289 --> 00:31:33.089 accepting that treating an animal as a commodity 00:31:33.089 --> 00:31:36.490 is using them as a resource for the sole benefit 00:31:36.490 --> 00:31:40.630 or utility of us humans. You've already crossed 00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:43.390 that line. And now you're into this discussion 00:31:43.390 --> 00:31:50.380 about treatment. The issue of use is really, 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.819 you know, the treatment compounds the initial 00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:58.680 harm. The primary harm is use. And like Julie 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:02.200 said, you know, yeah, they're in a backyard, 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.059 but they're still going to be laying an egg every 00:32:04.059 --> 00:32:07.859 24 to 30 hours because they have 10 ,000 years 00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:10.759 of human intervention acting as an artificial 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.740 agent for natural selection. And here we are 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:17.680 in the 21st century. They're laying 350 up to 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.220 500 eggs in 18 months, which is, which is anyways, 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:26.079 it's, it's, it's, it's insanity. And, you know, 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:28.660 I have this discussion on social media with people 00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:32.519 sometimes. And I always say to people, why did 00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:36.059 you get a backyard hen? Is it for you or is it 00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:39.140 for the hen? If it's for the hen, as you say, 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:43.279 then my recommendation is, is to find an avian 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:47.170 vet. take your, your hand to the avian vet and 00:32:47.170 --> 00:32:52.650 have, um, a subcutaneous hormonal implant and 00:32:52.650 --> 00:32:55.470 they're readily available or so in Canada, in 00:32:55.470 --> 00:32:57.849 the U S there's issues in the U S with the FDA 00:32:57.849 --> 00:33:01.809 and limitations on these hormonal implants, but 00:33:01.809 --> 00:33:04.369 they will prevent that hand from laying eggs 00:33:04.369 --> 00:33:07.730 for months and months. It isn't cheap, but you 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:10.500 know, I mean, We all know a visit to the vet 00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:12.319 with our cat or dog can end up in three or four 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:14.720 hundred dollars just like that. So this is really 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.059 no different. And that will result in egg laying 00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:22.220 cessation. And you talk to people on farm sanctuaries. 00:33:22.829 --> 00:33:25.329 Where they do this to prevent egg impaction, 00:33:25.349 --> 00:33:28.269 to limit the risks of ovarian cancer, which I 00:33:28.269 --> 00:33:30.089 forgot to mention in the life of a hen. Julie 00:33:30.089 --> 00:33:33.690 mentioned it earlier. So thank you for reminding 00:33:33.690 --> 00:33:35.990 me on that. Ovarian cancer. They have the highest 00:33:35.990 --> 00:33:38.470 rates of spontaneously occurring ovarian cancer 00:33:38.470 --> 00:33:41.289 of any species in the world. And that is because 00:33:41.289 --> 00:33:44.009 of their manipulated reproductive systems. So 00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:49.660 this implant will help them. eliminate egg laying 00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:51.660 for months on an end it has to be renewed every 00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:55.019 so often but if the hen and their welfare is 00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.180 a primary consideration which they always say 00:33:57.180 --> 00:34:00.039 they are and it's really not they're after the 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.900 eggs without the guilt they want guilt -free 00:34:02.900 --> 00:34:06.160 eggs but it's you know and farm sanctuary workers 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.719 will tell you time and time again the difference 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:13.179 in the animal's behavior personality is dramatically 00:34:13.179 --> 00:34:17.059 is altered once these hormonal implants are put 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:21.400 in because this constant laying, this constant 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.000 hormonal activity in their bodies to lay eggs 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.440 almost daily takes a toll. I mean, and look at 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:29.599 a pregnant human being, a woman, look what she 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.320 goes through in nine months of gestation. Look 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:34.579 at the postpartum depression sometimes that they 00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:37.539 can endure after giving birth. So look at all 00:34:37.539 --> 00:34:41.679 the hormonal flux that goes on in a human being's 00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:45.719 body, woman's body during that period of time. 00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:48.639 Think about it for a small animal who's doing 00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:52.380 it every 30, 36 hours for the rest of their lives 00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:56.460 potentially. So to stop that, would really be 00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:58.780 to the benefit from their from a health perspective 00:34:58.780 --> 00:35:03.980 and from their own um well -being so um the answer 00:35:03.980 --> 00:35:08.019 is no there is no humane scenario it isn't humane 00:35:08.019 --> 00:35:11.500 and you're still crossing that that in what is 00:35:11.500 --> 00:35:15.519 in my mind an impenetrable moral barrier with 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:18.440 you cannot cross that line into accepting the 00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.000 idea that we can use other living beings for 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.909 for our own uh benefit Thank you everyone for 00:35:24.909 --> 00:35:27.789 listening. I kindly invite you to share this 00:35:27.789 --> 00:35:30.570 podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage 00:35:30.570 --> 00:35:34.530 more people to take action. Again, thank you 00:35:34.530 --> 00:35:37.610 so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday 00:35:37.610 --> 00:35:38.909 for a new episode.