WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.660 Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:07.200 and today we are promoting neurodiversity. Maybe 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.779 it's the first time you are hearing about neurodiversity. 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:15.119 It is the concept that there is no one right 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.710 way of thinking, learning and behaving. and neurological 00:00:19.710 --> 00:00:23.329 differences in people, such as autism, ADHD, 00:00:23.649 --> 00:00:28.149 dyslexia, OCD, and more, should not be automatically 00:00:28.149 --> 00:00:32.670 classified as inherent flaws. To discuss this 00:00:32.670 --> 00:00:35.990 topic, I have with me Sabina Bravo, the founder 00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:39.789 of Animal Law Focus, a nonprofit dedicated to 00:00:39.789 --> 00:00:42.810 advancing legal protections for farm animals, 00:00:43.369 --> 00:00:46.310 especially in the Global South. We talked about 00:00:46.310 --> 00:00:49.799 the link between neurodiversions and veganism, 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:53.700 Elon Musk and entrepreneurship, the obstacles 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:57.820 neurodivergent people face at work, working from 00:00:57.820 --> 00:01:02.000 home, and much more. Visit the episode's notes 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.980 to connect with Sabina and learn more about the 00:01:04.980 --> 00:01:09.500 animal law focus. Also, for more episodes shedding 00:01:09.500 --> 00:01:13.439 light on the incredible diversity of people in 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:16.760 this movement, including the diversity of brains, 00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:21.040 follow or subscribe to the show, share the podcast 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.400 with your friends. Let's celebrate every Tuesday 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:28.239 how compassion for animals unite people from 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:33.359 all walks of life. Thank you. So we met in person 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.920 a few months ago and you were leading a meetup 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.780 about neurodiversity and it was such a lovely 00:01:41.780 --> 00:01:46.640 conversation. We were all animal advocates. who 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:50.859 consider ourselves neurodiverse. And we were 00:01:50.859 --> 00:01:54.000 talking about our experience of being neurodiverse 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:57.640 in this movement. And in that conversation, you 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:01.420 said something in the line of, I think the majority 00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:05.159 of people in the vegan movement, animal movement 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:10.039 are somewhat in the neurodiverse spectrum. And 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:12.780 I thought it was such an intriguing statement 00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:17.430 to make. And it comes with the stark contrast 00:02:17.430 --> 00:02:20.669 with the fact that we have no discussion whatsoever 00:02:20.669 --> 00:02:24.310 on neurodiversity in this movement. I think you 00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:27.569 were the first one I met to raise this point. 00:02:28.349 --> 00:02:31.889 And so let's start with that. What is your observation 00:02:31.889 --> 00:02:37.509 of the state of neurodiversity in the vegan movement? 00:02:41.050 --> 00:02:45.189 very quick clarification that my English is my 00:02:45.189 --> 00:02:50.349 second language, so please bear with me. Well, 00:02:50.349 --> 00:02:53.349 I'm not an expert in this field of neurodiversity. 00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:56.449 I didn't study psychology or anything related, 00:02:56.789 --> 00:03:00.129 but I have become very involved because I'm very 00:03:00.129 --> 00:03:03.430 interested in creating more inclusive spaces. 00:03:04.469 --> 00:03:08.189 I would say from my personal experience before 00:03:08.189 --> 00:03:13.219 I founded my organization, I work in other environments 00:03:13.219 --> 00:03:20.219 where I constantly felt like misunderstood, unseen, 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:29.900 not valued, maybe. And it affect me really, really 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:35.900 hard. It consumed all my emotion and stability 00:03:35.900 --> 00:03:43.610 at the time, long after that. And I think I started 00:03:43.610 --> 00:03:46.289 to question me like what was happening with me 00:03:46.289 --> 00:03:49.849 because my diagnosis of neurodiversity didn't 00:03:49.849 --> 00:03:54.430 came like, like it was from, it was with me from 00:03:54.430 --> 00:03:57.430 the start when I was very little, but nobody 00:03:57.430 --> 00:04:01.669 told me that that was a neurodiversity. So nobody 00:04:01.669 --> 00:04:05.250 teach me about this. Like they always say that 00:04:05.250 --> 00:04:09.840 it was ADHD, but We didn't talk about it in my 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.599 family or with therapists because it was the, 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.920 I don't know, early 2000s. So the knowledge that 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.019 we had at that moment was very little on how 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:25.540 to manage and how to build like strong person 00:04:25.540 --> 00:04:28.660 individuals, specifically women and girls and 00:04:28.660 --> 00:04:32.879 women with neurodiversity. So, so yeah, as I 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:38.279 am highly functional, we didn't talk about that 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:43.379 anymore. So but when being an adult and specifically 00:04:43.379 --> 00:04:46.920 in those environments when you're forced to see 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:49.920 like a lot of things very like with a strong 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:55.360 emotional content with animals you start like 00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:00.019 feeling like I started like feeling like rediscovering 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:04.980 this neurodiversity this diagnosis and I found 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:11.040 this things that really were be as for me like 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.920 and I kept asking me like how a movement that 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.540 is so empathetic how a movement that is so sensitive 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:27.860 um can be so um I don't know judgmental and strict 00:05:27.860 --> 00:05:32.980 with persons um like And when I said the majority 00:05:32.980 --> 00:05:36.500 of people in the animal focusing movement are 00:05:36.500 --> 00:05:39.560 somewhat in the neurodiversity spectrum because 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:45.259 we are people that is highly empathetic and highly 00:05:45.259 --> 00:05:48.500 sensitive and we have this connection to those 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:55.439 kind of activisms or actions in our society that 00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:01.120 require like a push of justice. and the people 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.879 neurodivergent people. I like the special people 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:09.519 that are very willing to pursue that look like 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.579 the sick of justice. So yeah, and I've been talking 00:06:13.579 --> 00:06:17.339 to a lot of people in the movement. Yeah, and 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:20.639 maybe they don't have, not all of them have diagnosis, 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.970 but you can see that as they have... told me 00:06:24.970 --> 00:06:27.250 like their struggles, like their experiences, 00:06:27.250 --> 00:06:29.930 you can see that there is like a potential diagnosis 00:06:29.930 --> 00:06:33.569 of neurodivergence, neurodivergence is behind. 00:06:34.189 --> 00:06:39.449 And I think we're losing a lot of talents because 00:06:39.449 --> 00:06:43.370 the movement right now, as it is right now, this 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:47.610 moment is not prepared to embrace the neurodivergence. 00:06:48.329 --> 00:06:51.370 What do you say to someone who is prejudiced 00:06:51.370 --> 00:06:55.339 against? neurodiverse people who think if I hire 00:06:55.339 --> 00:06:58.720 someone who's neurodiverse in my team, I'll have, 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:03.100 you know, I'll be less productive with my organization 00:07:03.100 --> 00:07:07.639 or with my campaign or whatever. And so I avoid 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:11.139 that profile. What do you say to that person? 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:18.279 Like to the person that has to hire? Yes. Well, 00:07:18.420 --> 00:07:22.790 first of all, It's easy for me because as a neurodivergent 00:07:22.790 --> 00:07:28.350 person, I don't have that prejudice, but I can 00:07:28.350 --> 00:07:34.750 try to put in that position. I think we all know 00:07:34.750 --> 00:07:37.769 what are the biggest struggles in neurodivergent 00:07:37.769 --> 00:07:45.290 people. ADHD, one of the biggest problems, sensory 00:07:45.290 --> 00:07:53.829 sensitivity. executive this function. And well, 00:07:54.110 --> 00:07:56.569 the autism has a lot of other struggles as well, 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:02.009 like communication primarily. But we don't talk 00:08:02.009 --> 00:08:05.009 about the gains. We don't talk about like the 00:08:05.009 --> 00:08:07.589 good things that neurodivergent people bring 00:08:07.589 --> 00:08:12.209 with them to the team. We only focus the speech 00:08:12.209 --> 00:08:18.449 online on the disadvantages, not the... advantages. 00:08:19.250 --> 00:08:23.550 So I will say people neurodivergent and I'm not 00:08:23.550 --> 00:08:27.290 talking like of myself I'm talking a lot of other 00:08:27.290 --> 00:08:31.170 people that I met are highly committed with the 00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:34.690 job because they feel it like in their bones 00:08:34.690 --> 00:08:37.870 if they want to volunteer if they want to work 00:08:37.870 --> 00:08:41.230 in this like nobody's forcing them forcing that 00:08:41.230 --> 00:08:47.799 nobody so you can't you can trust that there 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.659 will be very good workers or additions for your 00:08:51.659 --> 00:08:58.139 team. Also, they bring with them a lot of out 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:00.919 -of -the -box thinking, and that's one thing 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:04.299 that I really love. When you're trapped, neurotypical 00:09:04.299 --> 00:09:08.759 minds usually get trapped in the common problems 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:13.200 of society, but if you put an addition of a neurodivergent 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.039 mind, to solve the problem, you would probably 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:21.259 find a different solution that you never think 00:09:21.259 --> 00:09:25.840 of. And that would be like your biggest game, 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.779 to have that person in your team to untrap the 00:09:31.779 --> 00:09:36.580 problem that you've been caught up with, I don't 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:41.000 know, like innovative solution. But they also 00:09:41.450 --> 00:09:43.929 I don't know, very neurodivergent people that 00:09:43.929 --> 00:09:48.210 are very highly organized. They have hyperfocus 00:09:48.210 --> 00:09:52.250 that is really, really good. So probably you 00:09:52.250 --> 00:09:56.529 will have like persons working like in that task, 00:09:57.389 --> 00:10:01.370 like focusing in a task like for hours, no interruptions, 00:10:01.509 --> 00:10:04.909 no matter what is happening outside, like the 00:10:04.909 --> 00:10:08.710 world could be falling apart and the neurodivergent... 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:15.039 people will still be focusing on the task. And 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:19.460 that is really amazing to have like that. It's 00:10:19.460 --> 00:10:24.700 not that easy to take you away from that state 00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:28.940 and you can trust that person will fulfill the 00:10:28.940 --> 00:10:34.299 task very well. Okay. So your diagnosis of the 00:10:34.299 --> 00:10:38.309 problem, you know, echoed with the people who 00:10:38.309 --> 00:10:41.509 were present in that meetup by reference earlier 00:10:41.509 --> 00:10:45.330 of neurodiverse people from everywhere in the 00:10:45.330 --> 00:10:49.129 movement. And actually I should describe, you 00:10:49.129 --> 00:10:52.820 know, how you organize this meeting or should 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:57.779 I say where you created that meeting in a spare 00:10:57.779 --> 00:11:02.659 room of a convention center and there were dim 00:11:02.659 --> 00:11:07.120 lights in a corridor where there wasn't a lot 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:12.080 of noise and you invited people to sit on the 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:17.659 floor in a circle or in a chair at their convenience. 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:23.269 You took really, you know, measures that, um, 00:11:23.389 --> 00:11:26.570 promoted inclusivity for neurodiverse people, 00:11:26.570 --> 00:11:31.169 but that looks from, you know, an outsider perspective 00:11:31.169 --> 00:11:35.669 that looks really out there, you know, it's not 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:40.769 your, uh, conventional, um, office looking corporate 00:11:40.769 --> 00:11:46.149 looking scene. Um, and so I guess two questions 00:11:46.149 --> 00:11:51.539 in there. First of all, How do we create inclusive 00:11:51.539 --> 00:11:55.700 spaces for neurodiverse people? And what do you 00:11:55.700 --> 00:12:00.860 make of the fear of going too far from conventions 00:12:00.860 --> 00:12:03.820 and, you know, the normal way of doing things? 00:12:04.299 --> 00:12:06.919 Well, I will start with the first question. Probably 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:09.240 you will have to repeat the other one because 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:17.509 hello ACAC. But yeah. How do we create a space 00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:22.250 is more inclusive? Yeah, I remember what? That 00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:27.230 that made other specifically in a bar And I remember 00:12:27.230 --> 00:12:30.190 that I asked specifically for that for a room 00:12:30.190 --> 00:12:33.789 that was very quiet like isolated from all the 00:12:33.789 --> 00:12:37.850 noise because I know that conference like For 00:12:37.850 --> 00:12:41.669 myself, but for other people as well can be very 00:12:41.669 --> 00:12:45.830 very I don't know how can I say this word in 00:12:45.830 --> 00:12:50.129 English actually, but you can feel easily drained 00:12:50.129 --> 00:12:55.250 after that, all during the conference. So I wanted 00:12:55.250 --> 00:13:03.429 to create a space for people to feel free to 00:13:03.429 --> 00:13:07.110 behave as they want within, of course, the bonds 00:13:07.110 --> 00:13:12.960 of common respect between us. That's why I never 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.559 push any anyone to like talk about their diagnosis 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.480 only if they wanted to because actually that 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.779 is one of the measures I will take in my workplace 00:13:22.779 --> 00:13:27.340 that I will never ask for the people to Specify 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:30.279 like the diagnosis behind the neurodivergent 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.720 like there is like eight conditions in an hour 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:36.460 divergent spectrum I don't need to know what 00:13:36.460 --> 00:13:41.299 is yours I just need to know what are your specific 00:13:41.299 --> 00:13:45.659 needs so I can cover those needs, make all the 00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:48.860 accommodations for you to feel comfortable, to 00:13:48.860 --> 00:13:53.919 feel safe, to feel valued, to feel seen, respected. 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:59.559 More important for me, for the people to really 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:04.289 feel like... connected to the team like oh my 00:14:04.289 --> 00:14:07.389 gosh this team really is something else like 00:14:07.389 --> 00:14:11.009 they really value me they really see me and there 00:14:11.009 --> 00:14:13.450 you will find like the whole connection of the 00:14:13.450 --> 00:14:19.210 person with the mission and it's something that 00:14:19.210 --> 00:14:24.950 we really should look for in the movement. So 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:28.990 that's what I try to apply in my daily life, 00:14:29.370 --> 00:14:32.049 like running an organization, leading an organization, 00:14:32.629 --> 00:14:38.009 myself. I have never asked for a diagnosis. And 00:14:38.009 --> 00:14:43.590 I start all this work environment with telling 00:14:43.590 --> 00:14:48.750 them, in the first interview, we are inclusive 00:14:48.750 --> 00:14:54.440 space for all diversity. including neurodiversity. 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:04.019 So if you need like certain accommodation, please 00:15:04.019 --> 00:15:06.840 tell me that there is no need to share with all 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.340 of the team, but you can tell me and I will make 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:12.659 sure that you can feel comfortable in this. Like 00:15:12.659 --> 00:15:15.139 very specific, I don't know, I will mention an 00:15:15.139 --> 00:15:20.259 example very, very specific. We had to me and 00:15:20.259 --> 00:15:23.480 another person of the team. We have to share 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:31.480 room for EAG London in June and I made like a 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.399 like very I don't know normal average document 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:40.340 of like Agreement between two of us of sharing 00:15:40.340 --> 00:15:47.759 the room, but I added like a space where me or 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:54.179 her can add their specific needs for those nights 00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:57.259 that we're gonna share a room. Like for example, 00:15:58.700 --> 00:16:03.779 she was very sensitive to some noises during 00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:08.269 the night. So I... put all my effort to avoid 00:16:08.269 --> 00:16:14.029 like my night because I'm a person of I'm a night 00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:18.490 owl so I put all my efforts to avoid to disrupt 00:16:18.490 --> 00:16:21.690 that to not make her feel like uncomfortable 00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:27.230 so I took my MacBook and I went downstairs to 00:16:27.230 --> 00:16:33.710 work for like my night shift so I think those 00:16:33.710 --> 00:16:37.820 kind of accommodations could be really, and she 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:41.440 was very grateful about that. And, and of course 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.019 I will, I will expect for her to do the same 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:47.220 if I, if I told her like, you know, I had this 00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:55.360 specific need. So yeah, I think those very little 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.000 steps that we can take and make a whole difference, 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:03.259 you know, work environments. Yeah. What do you 00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:06.500 make of the people who will hear that and say, 00:17:06.500 --> 00:17:10.980 listen, it's not my responsibility to do everything 00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:16.319 I can to, you know, make your space of work comfortable 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:21.819 for you. Like you need to give a little and, 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:25.660 you know, just adapt to the way we do things 00:17:25.660 --> 00:17:29.259 here. Yeah, the typical speech and it's not only 00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:32.690 on the animal movement. animal focusing movement. 00:17:33.069 --> 00:17:35.589 I have experienced that speech in my professional 00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.430 life before the animal movement, when I was working 00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:46.509 in buffets of lawyers, and it happens a lot. 00:17:49.049 --> 00:17:56.029 First of all, you cannot be an neurodivergent 00:17:56.029 --> 00:18:01.869 person and still have traits. of a neurodivergent 00:18:01.869 --> 00:18:05.609 condition. Not the full diagnosis, but still 00:18:05.609 --> 00:18:09.289 have traits, like sensitivity, hypersensitivity, 00:18:10.869 --> 00:18:15.289 or specifically to, I don't know, noises, or 00:18:15.289 --> 00:18:19.990 textures, or smells, or other kind of sensitivity. 00:18:20.529 --> 00:18:24.210 And that doesn't mean that you have the whole, 00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:29.670 like... the whole list of traits to be a neurodivergent 00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:35.069 person. So first of all, I will start telling 00:18:35.069 --> 00:18:40.150 them that it's not just the neurodiversity, it's 00:18:40.150 --> 00:18:44.029 how complex is people. Actually, there is a new 00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:48.829 term that is being discussed currently. There 00:18:48.829 --> 00:18:55.200 is no neurodiversity, it's neurocomplexity. We 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.240 are, all of us are very complex human beings. 00:18:58.539 --> 00:19:01.900 Like the human being is a very complex kind of 00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:06.500 animal, if you think about it. And it could be 00:19:06.500 --> 00:19:13.000 very complicated to adjust for everyone. So just, 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.880 I will say that we don't have to adjust. We don't 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:20.700 have to create like a neutral space. Like from 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:25.720 the... starting with the perspective that none 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.299 of us, neurodivergent or not, should be exposed 00:19:29.299 --> 00:19:31.539 to these kinds of situations. I think we have 00:19:31.539 --> 00:19:35.660 been exposed to different situations over the 00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:39.839 years. And I think we started to normalize them. 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:47.339 Not everyone is an early bird. Not everyone can... 00:19:47.369 --> 00:19:50.109 I don't know, wake up like at 5 a .m. and start 00:19:50.109 --> 00:19:54.150 the day like going to the gym or doing yoga. 00:19:54.529 --> 00:19:57.549 I mean, I love the people. I wish I was one of 00:19:57.549 --> 00:20:03.650 them, but I'm not. So I think the pandemic actually 00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:06.329 showed like a very good opportunity for these 00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:09.130 improvements, like to start working remotely. 00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:14.009 and therefore to have less supervision on how 00:20:14.009 --> 00:20:17.809 you distribute your own schedules, your own hours. 00:20:19.289 --> 00:20:22.109 And I think actually it took a lot of pressure 00:20:22.109 --> 00:20:24.869 away from people like, I don't know, they don't 00:20:24.869 --> 00:20:29.089 want to dress like formally every day, they don't 00:20:29.089 --> 00:20:31.450 want to leave. I don't know, they have a specific 00:20:31.450 --> 00:20:36.880 anxiety of leaving their homes. Usually bosses 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.259 or leader, well, I will use the word bosses, 00:20:40.779 --> 00:20:43.900 are not very involved in what is happening with 00:20:43.900 --> 00:20:49.799 their work employees. So probably like I will 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:53.180 say like more than the half of them are struggling 00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:56.900 in silence, but you are not creating the spaces 00:20:56.900 --> 00:21:01.240 for them to tell you. So that's why you see like 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.599 you can see that everyone is doing fine. and 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:08.339 when someone says something because I don't know 00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:12.819 they just can't cope anymore you tell they tell 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:16.759 them you can go somewhere else I mean look at 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:20.019 this we have 20 people and all of them is working 00:21:20.019 --> 00:21:23.779 well they hadn't told me like anything and you're 00:21:23.779 --> 00:21:26.079 the only one with this problem so obviously you 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.359 have to go But have you really created the spaces 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.359 for all the other 20 people to tell you what 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.180 is happening in their lives? Like maybe they're 00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:38.980 really struggling to take the public transportation 00:21:38.980 --> 00:21:43.559 every day to go to work and they start their 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.039 day in the office, go into the bathroom and cry. 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:53.880 I've seen that. I lived through that. So I will 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.279 say that that's like the normalization behind 00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:01.339 I will start like if I'm not an neurodivergent 00:22:01.339 --> 00:22:05.319 boss I will start like questioning myself like 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:09.519 have I made like enough feedback service or have 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.099 I created this space maybe Friday afternoon all 00:22:14.099 --> 00:22:17.900 the team like share like an informal retreat 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:21.220 I don't know to share experiences they don't 00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:27.039 have to tell me their problems but somehow Within 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:31.099 the conversation, you will notice that not everyone 00:22:31.099 --> 00:22:36.839 else is doing 100 % good. I think that will be 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:45.420 my advice. A weird follow up question. Do you 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:49.660 think the problem starts not at the workplace, 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:56.299 but in the schools? Because I was... a VP of 00:22:56.299 --> 00:23:01.299 a nonprofit that was taking care of educating 00:23:01.299 --> 00:23:08.700 teachers, social workers, physicians about giftedness, 00:23:08.859 --> 00:23:14.400 which is in the spectrum of neurodiversity. And 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:19.059 the biggest issue that neurodiverse people were 00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:23.160 meeting in their life, and they were always going... 00:23:23.069 --> 00:23:26.910 back to that was school. School was a traumatizing 00:23:26.910 --> 00:23:31.509 experience because of the degree of conformity, 00:23:31.849 --> 00:23:35.130 because there was no space for, you know, weirdness 00:23:35.130 --> 00:23:39.890 or you would get bullied, you know, mercilessly. 00:23:39.910 --> 00:23:43.309 So it comes from the teachers. It comes also 00:23:43.309 --> 00:23:49.470 from your fellow students. And you are also in 00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:53.539 this infant. part of your life where, you know, 00:23:53.539 --> 00:23:55.559 you're discovering yourself and you don't know 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.700 much about what's happening and why you're different 00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:02.380 from others. So it's a very difficult period. 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:06.720 And I feel like schools are not making enough 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:12.019 efforts to help neurodiverse people. Actually, 00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:17.380 I have a very good example, like of myself, um, 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:21.609 very interesting story. to answer this question. 00:24:23.569 --> 00:24:27.690 And I always try to tell this story because it 00:24:27.690 --> 00:24:31.369 changed everything for me. I was seven years 00:24:31.369 --> 00:24:33.730 old. I think I had a friend in second grade. 00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:40.329 We were uniforms. We usually wear uniforms here 00:24:40.329 --> 00:24:44.690 in Chile. And the thing is, she told me that 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:50.269 her... stockings like the socks were too tight 00:24:50.269 --> 00:24:56.029 around her cuffs. So I helped her by grabbing 00:24:56.029 --> 00:24:59.750 a scissor and cutting the elastic with scissors 00:24:59.750 --> 00:25:02.970 because the elastic was too tight. That was a 00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:07.450 problem. So my seven year old found a solution 00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:14.150 very quickly. The teacher saw this and called 00:25:14.150 --> 00:25:22.990 my parents. She told them that this is not normal. 00:25:23.910 --> 00:25:29.789 Nobody else behaves like this. That was out of 00:25:29.789 --> 00:25:33.130 the box thinking, actually. They weren't ready 00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:38.509 to see that. They're not informed about this. 00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:44.079 They sent me to all kinds of therapies. like 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:48.019 psychologists, neurologists, educational psychologists, 00:25:48.980 --> 00:25:53.960 all of them. I remember kind of traumatizing, 00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:56.140 but it wasn't too tiny because of all the games 00:25:56.140 --> 00:26:01.039 that they made you do. But I remember going to 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:07.079 a lot of therapies and they made like a lot of 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:12.349 tests. That's when my parents received the formal 00:26:12.349 --> 00:26:17.950 diagnosis like she has hyperactivity and probably 00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:21.230 she has ADHD but the thing is she has so high 00:26:21.230 --> 00:26:25.750 grades at that time the high grades were like 00:26:25.750 --> 00:26:29.890 excluding like if you had high grades there was 00:26:29.890 --> 00:26:33.130 no way to have like the whole ADHD diagnosis. 00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:36.410 Now we know that especially for girls and women 00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:39.599 we can be very functional and have high grades 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:45.099 and still be ADHD. And my father always told 00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:49.079 this story very proud, of course, that the neurologist 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:54.319 stood up and shook his hand and told him, you 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:59.359 have a very normal girl. She's just different 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:02.480 in her intelligence. She's extremely intelligent, 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:08.509 like extremely smart. So be proud of it, do not 00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:13.509 shame her anyway, like in any way. And that's 00:27:13.509 --> 00:27:17.170 why they did, like they give me all the support 00:27:17.170 --> 00:27:20.730 like at home. So yeah, I struggled a lot in school. 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:25.549 I kept like, I went to dollar school like one 00:27:25.549 --> 00:27:28.990 more year and then I changed to other school 00:27:28.990 --> 00:27:31.750 and I changed the schools like eight times because 00:27:31.750 --> 00:27:37.289 I never felt like completely comfortable in these 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:39.730 environments because they're very, if you go 00:27:39.730 --> 00:27:41.789 to a school, I don't know how it is in the U 00:27:41.789 --> 00:27:43.990 .S. or Canada or like in the Global North, but 00:27:43.990 --> 00:27:46.609 in the Global South, Latin America, if you go 00:27:46.609 --> 00:27:52.490 to a school, it's very neurotypical. And the 00:27:52.490 --> 00:27:55.410 schools that are more like inclusive or like 00:27:55.410 --> 00:28:01.589 neurodivergent inclusive are very, like the costs 00:28:01.589 --> 00:28:05.140 are too high. They're not affordable for all 00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:14.140 people. So I think not all people can expect 00:28:14.140 --> 00:28:16.859 to have access to that kind of education. So 00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:20.200 we have to settle ourselves with the common education. 00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:22.519 And the common education is very structured in 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.720 a way. You have to go to school from 8 to 4 p 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.940 .m. and you have times for the classes, you have 00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:33.500 things that you've been expected to do in those 00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:36.660 classes, you have breaks of 15 minutes, you have 00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:39.519 another break of half an hour when you have to 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:44.420 have lunch. And you will find a lot of girls 00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:49.000 and boys, like children in general, that are 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:53.079 struggling with those conventional structures. 00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:56.900 Myself, when I started going to the high school, 00:28:57.390 --> 00:29:05.809 from 14 to 18 years old here. I always, I started 00:29:05.809 --> 00:29:09.769 having my first problems with punctuality because 00:29:09.769 --> 00:29:12.750 I started going by myself to high school, not 00:29:12.750 --> 00:29:17.950 by my parents. They didn't carry me anymore. 00:29:18.869 --> 00:29:23.549 So I started going by myself and I always ended 00:29:23.549 --> 00:29:27.509 up going to school like 9 a .m. I always excuse 00:29:27.509 --> 00:29:31.349 myself like look I got up like six in the morning 00:29:31.349 --> 00:29:34.710 I can do like any more than this I mean this 00:29:34.710 --> 00:29:38.930 is my top like commitment with this and actually 00:29:38.930 --> 00:29:41.150 they were very in that school where they were 00:29:41.150 --> 00:29:44.410 very understanding but that's not the situation 00:29:44.410 --> 00:29:49.849 for all children for all teenagers so I think 00:29:49.849 --> 00:29:53.069 I don't have the solution for the educational 00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:57.859 problem but I I 100 % agree that it all starts 00:29:57.859 --> 00:30:04.920 in the educational stage because we are kind 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:09.640 of being modeled to adapt to certain structures 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:18.400 and they don't allow yourself to explore other 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.740 kind of systems. So I think that's one thing 00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:28.099 that creates, of course, the un -flexibility 00:30:28.099 --> 00:30:32.140 in the boss in the future, and the struggle, 00:30:32.420 --> 00:30:35.720 the internal struggles, emotional struggles of 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:40.319 the employee in the future that have been masking 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:46.079 themselves for like 20 years. You kind of I don't 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:48.099 know if you're familiar with the masking but 00:30:48.099 --> 00:30:51.480 if you mask like for 20 years or even for a whole 00:30:51.480 --> 00:31:00.500 weekend and it can really really like Throw you 00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:04.079 on the floor like I've been myself in conference 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.880 I found myself like in conference crying every 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:11.299 single night because even if I love to talk to 00:31:11.299 --> 00:31:15.240 people it feels like A lot of effort so imagine 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:19.720 that during all this school period and then your 00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:23.680 whole work life no escape because nobody told 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:29.140 you that you have a another option. Yeah great 00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:32.259 point for those you know for listeners who don't 00:31:32.259 --> 00:31:36.700 know what masking is it's like it's all of that 00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:39.960 intellectual energy and emotional energy that 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.200 you're putting in. trying to look normal and 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.880 look uh like everyone else and and don't deviate 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:52.299 from from the norm and when you offer so basically 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:56.519 when you offer you know inclusive spaces uh you're 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.420 relieving people from that pressure from that 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:05.019 expectation to mask in you know coming for work 00:32:05.019 --> 00:32:09.400 yeah what do you make of working from home because 00:32:09.690 --> 00:32:13.390 I was listening to a conversation during COVID, 00:32:13.509 --> 00:32:17.809 a podcast interview with the head and I think 00:32:17.809 --> 00:32:22.609 founder of WordPress, and it was on the Sam Harris 00:32:22.609 --> 00:32:29.930 Show podcast. And he said that I think he's neurodiverse, 00:32:30.089 --> 00:32:33.069 he's ADHD, like most founders and entrepreneurs, 00:32:33.190 --> 00:32:36.029 he's neurodiverse. I mean, the biggest one that 00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:40.109 I have in mind is Elon Musk, he's autistic. um 00:32:40.109 --> 00:32:44.450 but he was saying you know i established working 00:32:44.450 --> 00:32:48.210 from home long before covid for me this was the 00:32:48.210 --> 00:32:51.970 most inclusive and best space for my employees 00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:55.890 uh it wasn't only you know great for their family 00:32:55.890 --> 00:32:59.589 life um because you know they were always at 00:32:59.589 --> 00:33:03.849 home so they could you know um take the children 00:33:03.849 --> 00:33:07.240 to school and all of that But also it was great 00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:11.119 for who they were. They had control over their 00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:16.480 space. And he went through a list of advantages 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.940 of working from home. And he wished that after 00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:25.640 COVID, we would progress as a society and give 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:30.000 this option forever, to be able to work from 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.609 home. Now, not all employers. uh, have seen the 00:33:34.609 --> 00:33:39.670 light after COVID, many of them have, um, obligated 00:33:39.670 --> 00:33:43.490 their employees to go back to work. So what do 00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:46.329 you make of that whole debate? Well, first of 00:33:46.329 --> 00:33:49.589 all, we have to acknowledge that for some people 00:33:49.589 --> 00:33:52.410 still it's not more comfortable to work from 00:33:52.410 --> 00:33:55.750 home. Uh, even neurodivergent people I, I've 00:33:55.750 --> 00:34:00.710 been, I talked to, um, they, maybe they don't 00:34:00.710 --> 00:34:05.380 look for the social connection, but working outside 00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:10.420 gives them more structure, like more routine, 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.940 more routine. And some people in the neurodivergent 00:34:15.940 --> 00:34:21.639 spectrum is full of surprises. Like you will 00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:25.659 find yourself like craving routine, but rejection 00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:31.840 structures that others put on you, but And you 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.739 need to, but you're still gonna look for your 00:34:35.739 --> 00:34:38.619 own structure, like in your daily life. So for 00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:41.099 some people, it's very comfortable to work outside. 00:34:43.179 --> 00:34:48.519 Myself, COVID happened in my final year of law 00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:52.940 school. It was the only year where I achieved 00:34:52.940 --> 00:35:01.070 top marks in several subjects, like, I was a 00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:05.110 person in high school with very high grades. 00:35:05.510 --> 00:35:10.110 That's why I ended up going to the best law school 00:35:10.110 --> 00:35:13.789 in Chile. That was a huge achievement. But you 00:35:13.789 --> 00:35:16.329 can imagine my frustration when I started law 00:35:16.329 --> 00:35:20.929 school and my grades weren't high anymore. So 00:35:20.929 --> 00:35:24.110 this final year when COVID happened and the world 00:35:24.110 --> 00:35:28.340 was literally falling apart. In Chile we had 00:35:28.340 --> 00:35:34.980 our own political problems as well. I found myself 00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:39.119 more comfortable than ever and having top marks 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:43.260 in subjects that I never thought of. And that 00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:47.019 of course helped me a lot. But I still have a 00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:49.360 lot of problems working from home or studying 00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:53.079 from home. Like I have two dogs and a cat and 00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:56.139 the dogs, well not the cat, but the dogs are 00:35:56.139 --> 00:35:59.480 very much like children and they need attention 00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:04.000 like at all times. So I don't have that disconnection 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.219 like my work separate from home. So I find myself 00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:11.260 like very, a lot of times during the day, like 00:36:11.260 --> 00:36:15.750 struggling to get some work done and like turning 00:36:15.750 --> 00:36:20.869 between the work and the house task and the attention 00:36:20.869 --> 00:36:28.329 to my companion animals. So I think it should 00:36:28.329 --> 00:36:32.530 be an option for... I don't believe in creating 00:36:32.530 --> 00:36:37.309 like works that are 100 % remote. I think we 00:36:37.309 --> 00:36:41.369 still have to have a space where people can go... 00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:44.269 if they want to get out of the house because 00:36:44.269 --> 00:36:47.050 I don't know they have a lot of problems inside 00:36:47.050 --> 00:36:49.989 their home with their family animals whatever 00:36:49.989 --> 00:36:54.010 we all need like that time out so we need a safe 00:36:54.010 --> 00:37:00.730 space to go and work comfortable and quietly 00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:04.349 but we have to have the option for the people 00:37:04.349 --> 00:37:08.530 that really really hates going out and really 00:37:08.530 --> 00:37:14.969 wants to stay in their houses, in pajamas, in 00:37:14.969 --> 00:37:21.050 PJs, or I don't know, and working at their own 00:37:21.050 --> 00:37:25.269 rhythm. I think having that flexibility is really, 00:37:25.269 --> 00:37:28.510 really necessary. And I understand that for founders, 00:37:29.949 --> 00:37:36.269 executives, entrepreneurs, it's very... easy 00:37:36.269 --> 00:37:39.130 for them to say like, oh no, yeah, all my remote 00:37:39.130 --> 00:37:43.949 work is 100 % better. Because they all usually 00:37:43.949 --> 00:37:46.469 have like a lot of help at home. I mean, they 00:37:46.469 --> 00:37:49.369 have the means to pay like domestic help, you 00:37:49.369 --> 00:37:55.190 know, but for the normal employee, we don't have 00:37:55.190 --> 00:37:59.920 that. We don't have like the extra amount of 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:04.199 money to pay for a person that help us and that 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.340 can attend your children or your animal children 00:38:08.340 --> 00:38:14.440 in the meantime you work. So I think we still 00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:22.820 have to be very careful with like this opposite 00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:29.380 views like 100 % remote and 100 % in person. 00:38:30.019 --> 00:38:35.739 I think those extreme visions are the responsibles 00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:41.420 of a lot of employees feeling unseen and unvalued, 00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:48.519 burning out, having depression, very hidden in 00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:53.280 themselves. So I think, yeah. But I can see why 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.079 Elon Musk and other founders can say that. It's 00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.739 very comfortable and easy for them. Yes, I mean, 00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:06.280 I'm not a morning person and working from home 00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:09.679 has allowed me to, you know, not wake up very 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:13.039 early in order to go and take public transit 00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:17.219 and find myself, you know. surrounded with strangers 00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:20.860 at impossible hours of the morning. Like, no, 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:25.579 thank you. Um, I mean, also, I mean, also you 00:39:25.579 --> 00:39:28.960 have to think about like the time you have to 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.860 like between your home and your work depends 00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:35.960 on the city. But I mean, I've been in Mexico 00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:40.159 city. I don't know if you have been there, but 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:44.690 it's by far one of the The city is amazing and 00:39:44.690 --> 00:39:46.929 for the listeners that have been there they will 00:39:46.929 --> 00:39:51.030 agree with me but you can be easily two hours 00:39:51.030 --> 00:39:54.530 of public transportation to go like anywhere 00:39:54.530 --> 00:39:59.630 and the traffic is Horrible, and I come from 00:39:59.630 --> 00:40:02.210 a capital in my country. I was born and raised 00:40:02.210 --> 00:40:06.190 in Santiago But I never experienced that I mean 00:40:06.969 --> 00:40:10.349 The maximum that it took me was like an hour 00:40:10.349 --> 00:40:15.030 to go from my home to some school, but yeah, 00:40:15.210 --> 00:40:18.630 there are other cities and that also, and I like 00:40:18.630 --> 00:40:23.650 to use this concept, kills the spirit. Like you 00:40:23.650 --> 00:40:26.309 would probably not, you would not feel like physical 00:40:26.309 --> 00:40:29.969 exhausted, but it kills your spirit over time. 00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:35.599 I call them urban jangles. I love that term because 00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:39.360 it shows it's the law of the strongest in the 00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.739 jungle and all of that. It's very ferocious, 00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:47.900 very violent in a way. I don't like big cities. 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:52.679 For me, a big city is Montreal. Every time I 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:56.559 have people from elsewhere visit Montreal, they 00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:00.360 tell me, Montreal is not a city. Montreal is 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:06.340 like a park. Montreal is lots of trees and very 00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:12.559 calm. In my country, it's a suburb. There's also 00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:17.219 the fact that I'm Canadian and I'm not used to 00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:23.500 the true big cities. We talked about founders 00:41:23.500 --> 00:41:28.239 being often ADHD and and all of that. And I feel 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.280 it ties well with what you were saying about 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:35.840 how there are many advantages of hiring neurodiverse 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:39.539 people. How do you explain that neurodiverse 00:41:39.539 --> 00:41:43.860 people are entrepreneurial? Well, I don't know 00:41:43.860 --> 00:41:46.980 if this is the official version, but I think 00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:53.840 my explanation will be like for sure that as 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.239 we have different ideas. And I can talk from 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:02.179 my experience of what came in my mind, what happened 00:42:02.179 --> 00:42:04.699 in my mind before I decided to found animal law 00:42:04.699 --> 00:42:12.840 focus. I see the problems from a different perspective. 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:19.360 And I love to look for like the root of the problem 00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:23.639 and to go deeper and deeper and deeper and try 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:29.199 to find a solution that can cover all of most 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:34.519 of the spaces in the future. I don't like to 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:39.840 feel like I'm working right now on this and this 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.880 will lead to another campaign in five years because 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.019 this was not very well covered in the first one. 00:42:48.019 --> 00:42:51.039 I don't know if you follow me. I think I try 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:54.690 to find, if it's possible, of course. In some 00:42:54.690 --> 00:42:59.789 cases, there is not possible. I try to find the 00:42:59.789 --> 00:43:02.889 ultimate solution for problems. So I go to the 00:43:02.889 --> 00:43:08.010 root of the problem. The majority of workplaces, 00:43:08.570 --> 00:43:10.550 like in animal focusing movement, but in other 00:43:10.550 --> 00:43:15.730 as well, I'm not very welcome to these other 00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:22.250 ideas. So I just found myself like... maybe I 00:43:22.250 --> 00:43:25.210 should try something like by myself. Because 00:43:25.210 --> 00:43:28.329 it's the only way where I can put to test this 00:43:28.329 --> 00:43:33.010 theory that I have, this solution that I've been 00:43:33.010 --> 00:43:38.650 strategizing in my head for months. I will say 00:43:38.650 --> 00:43:44.530 that it's not like a pursuit of your own... happiness, 00:43:45.510 --> 00:43:49.389 like one more to a long list of achievements. 00:43:49.489 --> 00:43:52.710 It's not like that. It's just like you feel trapped 00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:56.190 because you're feeling different way. You only 00:43:56.190 --> 00:43:59.469 see obstacles to develop your thinking, your 00:43:59.469 --> 00:44:04.309 ideas. So you create it by yourself. You create 00:44:04.309 --> 00:44:07.769 your own world. You create your own opportunity. 00:44:08.429 --> 00:44:11.610 And I can see that. I mean, I have very strong 00:44:11.610 --> 00:44:17.469 opinions on Elon Musk. but I can see why he did 00:44:17.469 --> 00:44:21.449 what he did and I can see why all the other funders, 00:44:21.590 --> 00:44:26.030 big funders, not myself and a tiny tiny founder 00:44:26.030 --> 00:44:29.650 of a small organization in very south of the 00:44:29.650 --> 00:44:33.349 world. I'm talking about the big ones I can see 00:44:33.349 --> 00:44:38.110 why they pushed themselves to do that because 00:44:38.110 --> 00:44:42.250 they were They came from a list of struggles 00:44:42.250 --> 00:44:46.670 with other environments, even Elon Musk. I remember 00:44:46.670 --> 00:44:53.349 where he spoke about his story. And the thing, 00:44:53.590 --> 00:44:55.909 correct me if I'm wrong if you know this, but 00:44:55.909 --> 00:45:01.530 he talked about having struggles in other work 00:45:01.530 --> 00:45:06.090 environments and problems, like feeling like... 00:45:06.059 --> 00:45:10.940 comfortable and all the common things from neurodivergent 00:45:10.940 --> 00:45:14.320 people that can't be masking anymore. I think 00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:20.099 that is a crucial point because when you became 00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:26.159 so self -conscious and you feel like you cannot 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:30.239 handle more masking, like I can't do this anymore. 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:36.300 It's been too long. It's making me sick. mentally, 00:45:36.940 --> 00:45:40.840 physically even, I can't do anymore. And that 00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:44.760 happened to me last year. It was like, I can't 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:49.559 see myself going back to these environments. 00:45:50.300 --> 00:45:55.059 And it came with, I quit to a job that I had 00:45:55.059 --> 00:45:58.500 here in Chile. And after that, I couldn't see 00:45:58.500 --> 00:46:02.340 myself like working again in that kind of system. 00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:06.140 And I started a whole process of recognizing 00:46:06.140 --> 00:46:09.400 this old diagnosis and recognizing myself as 00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:13.300 an neurodivergent person and unmasking. Actually 00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.840 my mom always tell me I see now things in you 00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:20.980 that I haven't seen before. And it's because 00:46:20.980 --> 00:46:24.059 I told mom it's because I'm not masking anymore 00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:30.099 and actually has made me happier than ever. So 00:46:30.099 --> 00:46:33.719 I think that that could be like the reason behind. 00:46:34.219 --> 00:46:40.579 That is so touching and yes, it's a It's weird 00:46:40.579 --> 00:46:44.019 every time I talk with founders not every every 00:46:44.019 --> 00:46:49.280 time but most founders I I have spoken to Have 00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:52.920 the same traits and are neuro diverse and whatever 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:56.860 culture you go to you know, it's always the same 00:46:56.860 --> 00:47:01.380 personalities That are a typical that are you 00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:07.130 know? unconventional in their thinking and and 00:47:07.130 --> 00:47:13.849 all of that. Yes, it's something that I find 00:47:13.849 --> 00:47:20.090 beautiful. You mentioned how in hiring in the 00:47:20.090 --> 00:47:25.309 hiring process, you talk about how your organization 00:47:25.309 --> 00:47:31.739 is inclusive to all people. all sexual orientation 00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:34.780 and all of that. I've heard that before from 00:47:34.780 --> 00:47:38.460 other organizations, but the neurodiverse part 00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:43.079 is always missing. Everyone is named, everyone 00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:46.400 except the neurodiverse people. How do you explain 00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:50.199 that? Well, it's because I am neurodivergent 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:55.400 myself. I mean, I will not tell you that if I 00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:58.730 was a neurodivergent, I will have the same self 00:47:58.730 --> 00:48:02.949 -awareness like about this, I cannot, there's 00:48:02.949 --> 00:48:07.789 no way I could find, I can't know that. So I 00:48:07.789 --> 00:48:11.050 always tell everyone who, and we have a team, 00:48:11.269 --> 00:48:13.750 a strong team of 12 people now, they're mostly 00:48:13.750 --> 00:48:16.909 volunteers, but they work very, very hard and 00:48:16.909 --> 00:48:21.050 they're very committed people. And I think that 00:48:21.050 --> 00:48:25.489 they, I always told them that at first that myself, 00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:31.440 I myself am an neurodivergent person and I respect 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:37.400 my privacy, I respect my rights of not coming 00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:43.280 out with all the diagnosis in front and I would 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:50.880 never ask that from other person but I am so, 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:56.039 so conscious of what Could generate like a bad 00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.699 work environment like a sick work environment 00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:03.900 Can I'm healthy or environment can generate in 00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:08.000 a person? I find myself leaving that exactly 00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:13.579 that the shaming of emotions the flexibility 00:49:13.579 --> 00:49:18.880 the a lot of other things that probably this 00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:22.820 is not the place and talk about but But yeah, 00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:25.940 I believe through that and I know the pain that 00:49:25.940 --> 00:49:30.800 it can cause. So from that knowledge, I cannot 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:35.960 act in any other way than just be as inclusive 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:43.000 as possible, as flexible as possible. And I think 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:47.420 I took it like a sort of activism. Like I told 00:49:47.420 --> 00:49:51.219 you, I didn't study psychology, but... lot of 00:49:51.219 --> 00:49:54.159 people in my family are psychologists and I've 00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:56.739 been like involved in psychology for like most 00:49:56.739 --> 00:50:01.260 of my life since this Event in a school that 00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:07.719 I told you So I think and I read a lot so I think 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:14.179 I Took it like a I don't know how to say but 00:50:14.179 --> 00:50:19.179 the obligation of mine that I I am an older virgin. 00:50:19.420 --> 00:50:23.300 I lived through the struggles. I've been shamed 00:50:23.300 --> 00:50:27.639 for being a different person. Even if that other 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:30.519 person didn't know about my diagnosis, you don't 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.139 have to know. It's the same with the sexual orientation. 00:50:34.699 --> 00:50:37.239 You don't have to know that. You just have to 00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:41.380 respect. You just have to make everyone feel 00:50:41.380 --> 00:50:44.380 as comfortable as possible. That is your only 00:50:44.380 --> 00:50:48.539 job. I don't have any... obligation to disclose 00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:52.820 my personal problems with you. So that's why, 00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:55.960 well, in our internal policies, of course, you 00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.500 find the typical one, the gender, no, the gender 00:50:59.500 --> 00:51:04.659 discrimination, sexual harassment and everything. 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:11.360 I included neurodiversity policies to just create 00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:16.769 like this environment For me to feel comfortable, 00:51:16.769 --> 00:51:19.989 but of course for other people as I told you 00:51:19.989 --> 00:51:24.170 I think the the push for a lot of funders to 00:51:24.170 --> 00:51:29.090 to start their own company or foundation organization 00:51:29.090 --> 00:51:33.650 is you have you want to like create an another 00:51:33.650 --> 00:51:37.869 kind of world for you and You have this magnificent 00:51:37.869 --> 00:51:43.570 opportunity to craft it like as you want And 00:51:43.570 --> 00:51:46.170 I think, yeah, I just, I always use the sentence 00:51:46.170 --> 00:51:50.230 that what would I like to, how would I like to 00:51:50.230 --> 00:51:54.210 be treated? And what would I like to see in another, 00:51:54.510 --> 00:51:57.789 in this space as a volunteer, as an employee? 00:51:58.809 --> 00:52:02.369 And from that, from that position, I started 00:52:02.369 --> 00:52:04.829 like creating these policies, standard policies 00:52:04.829 --> 00:52:09.639 that are very, very strict in a way of. that 00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:12.639 we have to follow them like two in order to have 00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:17.420 a healthy environment. Yes beautiful and i applaud 00:52:17.420 --> 00:52:21.659 you for for those efforts to finish our conversation 00:52:21.659 --> 00:52:27.340 i was wondering about the link between neurodiversity 00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:32.000 and veganism and that reminds me of a conversation 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:34.739 i had with whispers red do you know whispers 00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:39.289 red she's an ASMR artist. and i invited her on 00:52:39.289 --> 00:52:42.010 the show way back then i think it's one of the 00:52:42.010 --> 00:52:45.730 first episodes of the vegan report and we were 00:52:45.730 --> 00:52:51.050 talking about hypersensitivity and how that hypersensitivity 00:52:51.050 --> 00:52:57.369 naturally guided uh whispers red emma to uh becoming 00:52:57.369 --> 00:53:00.969 vegan because she was receptive to the suffering 00:53:00.969 --> 00:53:06.889 of animals and i'm wondering you know Um, is 00:53:06.889 --> 00:53:10.949 there more neurodiverse people in the vegan community 00:53:10.949 --> 00:53:14.150 because of that, because of the presence of that 00:53:14.150 --> 00:53:17.789 hypersensitivity? And do you think that we should 00:53:17.789 --> 00:53:22.090 make more efforts to target vegan advocacy to 00:53:22.090 --> 00:53:25.829 neurodiverse people? Um, again, I don't have 00:53:25.829 --> 00:53:29.070 the exact numbers of anything, but yeah, from 00:53:29.070 --> 00:53:32.070 my perspective, it's highly connected. Like the 00:53:32.070 --> 00:53:35.480 neurodivergence to a lot of kind of activism 00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:41.579 veganism specifically because we are so we see 00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:44.340 everything and feel everything in a more intense 00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:49.659 way so from that you can expect that we will 00:53:49.659 --> 00:53:56.099 feel like very exposed to this kind of suffering 00:53:56.099 --> 00:54:01.579 that a lot of people um they they are not affected 00:54:01.579 --> 00:54:07.119 by that even if they show like I see neurotypical 00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.900 persons that even if they if you show them videos 00:54:10.900 --> 00:54:14.059 and stuff they will not change their mind because 00:54:14.059 --> 00:54:18.179 it's not because They they don't they don't deny 00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:20.440 the suffering that they are seeing it's because 00:54:20.440 --> 00:54:23.960 simply they cannot engage with that suffering 00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:27.900 We're not I'm not saying that we can we cannot 00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:30.920 convert that of course, but I am trying to explain 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:33.630 that what is happening. They don't connect with 00:54:33.630 --> 00:54:38.849 that suffering in a personal way. It generates 00:54:38.849 --> 00:54:44.570 a lot of dissociation, of course. In neurodivergent 00:54:44.570 --> 00:54:47.329 persons, that doesn't happen. Like in most of 00:54:47.329 --> 00:54:49.590 the cases that I've seen, that doesn't happen. 00:54:50.010 --> 00:54:54.530 You have this ability, this extremely high empathy 00:54:54.530 --> 00:54:59.849 to feel this as if it were your own suffering. 00:55:02.420 --> 00:55:08.079 you feel like compelled to do something. I don't 00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:13.079 know where that's coming from, honestly, but 00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:16.619 I felt it and I've seen it in other colleagues 00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:18.719 in the animal advocacy movement that you feel 00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:23.880 compelled to act because of that. Now, I don't 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:26.619 know if I can take this space here to talk about 00:55:26.619 --> 00:55:31.800 the, very quickly, not the funny... or the good 00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:35.340 things about the connection of the neurodivergent 00:55:35.340 --> 00:55:40.360 and veganism, because in my experience, I have 00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:42.659 this sensitivity, of course, and I have this 00:55:42.659 --> 00:55:48.400 emotional connection, but I still am a neurodivergent 00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:54.219 person, and that means that I have other traits 00:55:54.219 --> 00:55:59.619 that didn't make it easier for me to become vegan. 00:56:00.650 --> 00:56:03.250 And that also can happen. I wrote an article 00:56:03.250 --> 00:56:05.949 and linked it in about this and I saw that a 00:56:05.949 --> 00:56:10.590 lot of people can relate to that. It goes both 00:56:10.590 --> 00:56:13.690 ways. Maybe if you have a texture sensitivity 00:56:13.690 --> 00:56:19.710 specifically or smell or flavor and that generates 00:56:19.710 --> 00:56:23.230 that causes that you become vegan. In my case, 00:56:23.750 --> 00:56:28.610 that delayed my conversion to veganism because 00:56:28.610 --> 00:56:34.920 I had a specific obsessions with textures of 00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:39.500 certain food that came from animals. And that 00:56:39.500 --> 00:56:46.940 specific obsession, it was pleasant for me. So 00:56:46.940 --> 00:56:51.599 it was like a huge internal struggle fight with 00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.039 myself. Because of course, my morality and all 00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:59.099 my feelings and my heart and mind was like vegan. 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:05.559 I couldn't fight like enough with this need of 00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:09.400 feel this pleasantness like immediately as an 00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:11.760 ADHD person we're always looking for dopamine 00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:16.980 like as faster as possible so this was like a 00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:19.940 very fast way like to consume this specific food 00:57:19.940 --> 00:57:24.059 because it caused me like a very pleasant experience 00:57:24.059 --> 00:57:32.139 inside and it calmed my urge, my need for this 00:57:32.139 --> 00:57:36.460 dopamine instantly. So I had to do a lot of work 00:57:36.460 --> 00:57:41.280 on changing that habit to finally become fully 00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:45.440 vegan. So I think it could be like the emotional 00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:48.519 part, yeah, it's a very strong connection, but 00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:53.059 we still have another traits that could be more 00:57:53.059 --> 00:58:00.230 complicated to to relate to veganism. So that's 00:58:00.230 --> 00:58:04.670 why I think nobody talks about this enough. We 00:58:04.670 --> 00:58:08.070 always tell people that veganism is extremely 00:58:08.070 --> 00:58:12.150 easy. But for some of us, we still have to acknowledge 00:58:12.150 --> 00:58:16.510 that it's not 100 % easy. It's a commitment that 00:58:16.510 --> 00:58:22.510 you have to make. And that you could face obstacles 00:58:22.510 --> 00:58:28.579 even in your body. to achieve that. But I think 00:58:28.579 --> 00:58:31.900 what make us like really, really good vegans 00:58:31.900 --> 00:58:36.719 is because we are so conscious about this and 00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:39.480 we're willing to fight ourselves like this horrible 00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:44.760 habit that I had in order to erase it. We can 00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:47.659 take our habits. That's proven. That's been proven. 00:58:48.460 --> 00:58:52.599 So to stop eating animals. And I think that's 00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:55.840 like at the end of the day, that's the commitment 00:58:55.840 --> 00:59:00.380 that we value as a movement, that even if it's 00:59:00.380 --> 00:59:03.340 difficult for you, for whatever reason, you're 00:59:03.340 --> 00:59:06.480 still willing to make that commitment every single 00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:08.420 day, and you're still willing to change your 00:59:08.420 --> 00:59:11.800 habits, because the emotional connection to all 00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:18.699 this suffering weighs a lot more. I see where 00:59:18.699 --> 00:59:22.440 you're coming from. And I'm not of the belief 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:26.219 that everyone can be vegan. I do believe there 00:59:26.219 --> 00:59:29.980 are obstacles to being vegan that we can't just, 00:59:29.980 --> 00:59:34.239 you know, brush off like if it's nothing. Some 00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:37.880 people have eating disorders. How are you going 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:41.539 to address that? Making a big change like becoming 00:59:41.539 --> 00:59:45.340 vegan is just psychologically unreachable for 00:59:45.340 --> 00:59:49.320 them. Other people have um, belong to religious 00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:52.920 tradition where eating animals is part of their 00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:56.539 faith. Now, what are you going to tell them that 00:59:56.539 --> 00:59:59.619 God is wrong, that they should abandon their 00:59:59.619 --> 01:00:02.820 faith? You know, it's, I could go on and on. 01:00:02.900 --> 01:00:07.119 It's more complex than what mainstream vegan 01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:11.840 activists make it to be. Like, um, we're, we're 01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:15.039 very, like we're saying, you know, neuro complex 01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:20.389 neuro diverse, um, and culturally diverse, and 01:00:20.389 --> 01:00:23.590 we have to take that into account and not make 01:00:23.590 --> 01:00:29.449 it the default thing. I'm all for initiatives 01:00:29.449 --> 01:00:34.250 that promote becoming vegetarian or reducing 01:00:34.250 --> 01:00:40.210 your animal consumption intake. I feel like those 01:00:40.210 --> 01:00:47.440 are more inclusive approaches. I also think that, 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:50.760 you know, if you want to advocate for veganism, 01:00:51.320 --> 01:00:55.659 you should, you know, it's all right to, you 01:00:55.659 --> 01:00:59.719 know, you're going to talk to a lot of people 01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.639 for whom it will resonate, but you should also 01:01:03.639 --> 01:01:06.360 accept that for many others, this won't resonate 01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.900 and you need to be flexible with your approach 01:01:08.900 --> 01:01:12.460 with those people. Like, are you going to just 01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:16.239 deny having a conversation with them and building 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:21.780 a bridge with them. Instead of just being angry 01:01:21.780 --> 01:01:25.719 at them for not becoming vegan, propose alternatives. 01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:29.239 Become a donor for a vegan cause or an animal 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:35.079 rights cause. Like I said earlier, become vegetarian 01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:39.039 or become vegan one day a week, something like 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:46.369 that. Build a bridge. We cannot forget the economic 01:01:46.369 --> 01:01:50.130 obstacle for a lot of people that happens in 01:01:50.130 --> 01:01:54.949 the Global South. Not all of us have the access, 01:01:55.230 --> 01:01:59.369 like economic, financial situation to access 01:01:59.369 --> 01:02:03.489 the vegan options that could be or not be affordable, 01:02:03.710 --> 01:02:07.869 depending on where you live, depending on what 01:02:07.869 --> 01:02:11.449 kind of vegan food that you're consuming. I was 01:02:11.449 --> 01:02:14.090 born and raised in a capital. That capital is 01:02:14.090 --> 01:02:18.969 one of the top ten with a lot of vegan options, 01:02:19.269 --> 01:02:24.550 but where I live now, honestly, I have two, three 01:02:24.550 --> 01:02:29.929 vegan restaurants as an option. Of course, that 01:02:29.929 --> 01:02:34.050 would not stop me from being vegan like myself, 01:02:34.309 --> 01:02:37.880 but I'm talking about in general. how can we 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:40.300 expect of all the people becoming vegan so easily 01:02:40.300 --> 01:02:44.860 as ourselves if they don't have this access and 01:02:44.860 --> 01:02:47.599 usually those restaurants are not very affordable. 01:02:48.260 --> 01:02:54.340 So they will probably not be in front of vegan 01:02:54.340 --> 01:02:57.460 food, like really good vegan food prepared in 01:02:57.460 --> 01:03:00.019 a vegan restaurant, you know, that kind of experience 01:03:00.019 --> 01:03:04.159 that... could change a lot in a person and open 01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:09.699 them to, oh, this is actually very good. I would 01:03:09.699 --> 01:03:13.880 100 % eat a tofu prepared in a vegan restaurant 01:03:13.880 --> 01:03:17.159 that I prepared by myself because I'm a terrible 01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:23.000 cook. And I would probably take my mother to 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:26.139 eat tofu in that vegan restaurant, not made by 01:03:26.139 --> 01:03:31.550 myself, for her to have the the most pleasant 01:03:31.550 --> 01:03:35.250 experience with the vegan options. But again, 01:03:36.070 --> 01:03:39.449 not everyone can afford that. And even Chile 01:03:39.449 --> 01:03:42.630 is one of the most developed countries in Latin 01:03:42.630 --> 01:03:47.909 America. I will say like the top one. You can 01:03:47.909 --> 01:03:50.409 go to other places, to other countries, and you 01:03:50.409 --> 01:03:54.730 will find like even harder than here. Yeah, even 01:03:54.730 --> 01:03:57.889 here in North America, there are food deserts, 01:03:57.889 --> 01:04:01.079 you know, in the middle of um, wealthy cities 01:04:01.079 --> 01:04:05.739 where families do not have access to, um, affordable, 01:04:06.380 --> 01:04:12.239 nutritious, fiber rich food. Um, and this is 01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:16.039 my first complaint with vegan restaurants. I 01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:19.159 I've said that so many times to friends. Um, 01:04:19.639 --> 01:04:24.539 I cannot believe how how much a salad can cost 01:04:24.539 --> 01:04:27.019 in a vegan restaurant. When I look at the list 01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:29.920 of ingredients and I read carrots and lettuce 01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:33.320 and tomatoes, those are cheap ingredients. Why 01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:39.400 am I paying an arm for this salad or this? It 01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:42.079 leads you to think that what is happening with 01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:45.639 the owner behind that restaurant, if that owner 01:04:45.639 --> 01:04:49.000 is that owner really vegan for animals or is 01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:54.380 maybe trying just to offer like a new idea of 01:04:54.380 --> 01:04:57.840 food and make a profit of it because I've seen 01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:03.300 to the two sides and when a restaurant or a small 01:05:03.300 --> 01:05:06.940 restaurant not a big one like lead by a vegan 01:05:06.940 --> 01:05:10.860 by a person that is vegan for the animals and 01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:15.250 their own concern is to put this food accessible 01:05:15.250 --> 01:05:20.070 to everyone is a very different story than when 01:05:20.070 --> 01:05:21.889 you see like a person behind the restaurant. 01:05:22.190 --> 01:05:26.670 They're just trying to create new recipes that 01:05:26.670 --> 01:05:32.010 go with the fashion right now, I don't know, 01:05:32.389 --> 01:05:36.150 and make a profit of it. So yeah. Completely 01:05:36.150 --> 01:05:40.570 agree. My favorite restaurant is a Buddhist restaurant 01:05:40.570 --> 01:05:44.500 and It's an old couple that has this restaurant 01:05:44.500 --> 01:05:47.539 and they make the best vegan food out there. 01:05:47.800 --> 01:05:51.300 And it's so cheap. I can't believe it. You know, 01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:54.119 every time. So yeah, they do it for the animals. 01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:56.679 They do it for ethical reasons. They do it because 01:05:56.679 --> 01:06:00.579 of their religious beliefs. And it's beautiful. 01:06:02.300 --> 01:06:04.980 Safina, did you want to add something before 01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:09.530 we stop the recording? I don't think so. I really 01:06:09.530 --> 01:06:13.309 enjoyed this conversation and I really hope to... 01:06:13.309 --> 01:06:16.449 I think maybe the only thing that I want to add 01:06:16.449 --> 01:06:22.090 is, of course, if any expert on this, listen 01:06:22.090 --> 01:06:27.670 to this, do not take it like I'm sharing a full 01:06:27.670 --> 01:06:30.289 truth with the world because I'm just sharing 01:06:30.289 --> 01:06:34.409 my perspective. I'm always learning. I'm always 01:06:34.409 --> 01:06:37.730 open to keep learning about this. I'm actually 01:06:37.730 --> 01:06:41.809 traveling to EAGX Sao Paulo this weekend and 01:06:41.809 --> 01:06:44.889 I will be leading an neurodiversity meetup probably 01:06:44.889 --> 01:06:48.269 like a lot as the Ava one. I'm so grateful that 01:06:48.269 --> 01:06:52.469 you find like a great space to share. That was 01:06:52.469 --> 01:06:58.710 like the purpose behind. I just hope that If 01:06:58.710 --> 01:07:03.489 any of what I told in this conversation makes 01:07:03.489 --> 01:07:06.989 another founder or leader or person involved 01:07:06.989 --> 01:07:09.630 in the animal advocacy movement to question themselves 01:07:09.630 --> 01:07:15.170 and to just try to make this exercise to maybe 01:07:15.170 --> 01:07:19.630 I should listen to my colleagues in a more careful 01:07:19.630 --> 01:07:23.570 way, in a more open way, I think that would be 01:07:23.570 --> 01:07:29.320 amazing. That's beautiful. And I really am really 01:07:29.320 --> 01:07:32.139 happy about your efforts. And don't worry about, 01:07:32.139 --> 01:07:34.860 you know, not being an expert. I'm pretty sure 01:07:34.860 --> 01:07:37.500 and that's a bit sad, but I'm pretty sure that 01:07:37.500 --> 01:07:41.079 those issues have not been studied and we don't 01:07:41.079 --> 01:07:44.900 really have data. I don't have any interest in 01:07:44.900 --> 01:07:49.059 studying a second career. I'm very well covered 01:07:49.059 --> 01:07:54.079 with one, just one. Yeah, I completely understand 01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:58.280 the sentiment. Sabina, thank you so much for 01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:01.139 having taken the time to discuss this important 01:08:01.139 --> 01:08:05.000 topic and for all the great animal rights work 01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:07.460 you're doing. Thank you. Thank you again for 01:08:07.460 --> 01:08:10.119 the opportunity and for your work for animals 01:08:10.119 --> 01:08:13.820 as well. Thank you everyone for listening. I 01:08:13.820 --> 01:08:16.359 kindly invite you to share this podcast with 01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:19.340 the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people 01:08:19.340 --> 01:08:23.020 to take action. Again, thank you so much for 01:08:23.020 --> 01:08:25.979 caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a 01:08:25.979 --> 01:08:26.840 new episode.