Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan
and today we are promoting neurodiversity. Maybe
it's the first time you are hearing about neurodiversity.
It is the concept that there is no one right
way of thinking, learning and behaving. and neurological
differences in people, such as autism, ADHD,
dyslexia, OCD, and more, should not be automatically
classified as inherent flaws. To discuss this
topic, I have with me Sabina Bravo, the founder
of Animal Law Focus, a nonprofit dedicated to
advancing legal protections for farm animals,
especially in the Global South. We talked about
the link between neurodiversions and veganism,
Elon Musk and entrepreneurship, the obstacles
neurodivergent people face at work, working from
home, and much more. Visit the episode's notes
to connect with Sabina and learn more about the
animal law focus. Also, for more episodes shedding
light on the incredible diversity of people in
this movement, including the diversity of brains,
follow or subscribe to the show, share the podcast
with your friends. Let's celebrate every Tuesday
how compassion for animals unite people from
all walks of life. Thank you. So we met in person
a few months ago and you were leading a meetup
about neurodiversity and it was such a lovely
conversation. We were all animal advocates. who
consider ourselves neurodiverse. And we were
talking about our experience of being neurodiverse
in this movement. And in that conversation, you
said something in the line of, I think the majority
of people in the vegan movement, animal movement
are somewhat in the neurodiverse spectrum. And
I thought it was such an intriguing statement
to make. And it comes with the stark contrast
with the fact that we have no discussion whatsoever
on neurodiversity in this movement. I think you
were the first one I met to raise this point.
And so let's start with that. What is your observation
of the state of neurodiversity in the vegan movement?
very quick clarification that my English is my
second language, so please bear with me. Well,
I'm not an expert in this field of neurodiversity.
I didn't study psychology or anything related,
but I have become very involved because I'm very
interested in creating more inclusive spaces.
I would say from my personal experience before
I founded my organization, I work in other environments
where I constantly felt like misunderstood, unseen,
not valued, maybe. And it affect me really, really
hard. It consumed all my emotion and stability
at the time, long after that. And I think I started
to question me like what was happening with me
because my diagnosis of neurodiversity didn't
came like, like it was from, it was with me from
the start when I was very little, but nobody
told me that that was a neurodiversity. So nobody
teach me about this. Like they always say that
it was ADHD, but We didn't talk about it in my
family or with therapists because it was the,
I don't know, early 2000s. So the knowledge that
we had at that moment was very little on how
to manage and how to build like strong person
individuals, specifically women and girls and
women with neurodiversity. So, so yeah, as I
am highly functional, we didn't talk about that
anymore. So but when being an adult and specifically
in those environments when you're forced to see
like a lot of things very like with a strong
emotional content with animals you start like
feeling like I started like feeling like rediscovering
this neurodiversity this diagnosis and I found
this things that really were be as for me like
and I kept asking me like how a movement that
is so empathetic how a movement that is so sensitive
um can be so um I don't know judgmental and strict
with persons um like And when I said the majority
of people in the animal focusing movement are
somewhat in the neurodiversity spectrum because
we are people that is highly empathetic and highly
sensitive and we have this connection to those
kind of activisms or actions in our society that
require like a push of justice. and the people
neurodivergent people. I like the special people
that are very willing to pursue that look like
the sick of justice. So yeah, and I've been talking
to a lot of people in the movement. Yeah, and
maybe they don't have, not all of them have diagnosis,
but you can see that as they have... told me
like their struggles, like their experiences,
you can see that there is like a potential diagnosis
of neurodivergence, neurodivergence is behind.
And I think we're losing a lot of talents because
the movement right now, as it is right now, this
moment is not prepared to embrace the neurodivergence.
What do you say to someone who is prejudiced
against? neurodiverse people who think if I hire
someone who's neurodiverse in my team, I'll have,
you know, I'll be less productive with my organization
or with my campaign or whatever. And so I avoid
that profile. What do you say to that person?
Like to the person that has to hire? Yes. Well,
first of all, It's easy for me because as a neurodivergent
person, I don't have that prejudice, but I can
try to put in that position. I think we all know
what are the biggest struggles in neurodivergent
people. ADHD, one of the biggest problems, sensory
sensitivity. executive this function. And well,
the autism has a lot of other struggles as well,
like communication primarily. But we don't talk
about the gains. We don't talk about like the
good things that neurodivergent people bring
with them to the team. We only focus the speech
online on the disadvantages, not the... advantages.
So I will say people neurodivergent and I'm not
talking like of myself I'm talking a lot of other
people that I met are highly committed with the
job because they feel it like in their bones
if they want to volunteer if they want to work
in this like nobody's forcing them forcing that
nobody so you can't you can trust that there
will be very good workers or additions for your
team. Also, they bring with them a lot of out
-of -the -box thinking, and that's one thing
that I really love. When you're trapped, neurotypical
minds usually get trapped in the common problems
of society, but if you put an addition of a neurodivergent
mind, to solve the problem, you would probably
find a different solution that you never think
of. And that would be like your biggest game,
to have that person in your team to untrap the
problem that you've been caught up with, I don't
know, like innovative solution. But they also
I don't know, very neurodivergent people that
are very highly organized. They have hyperfocus
that is really, really good. So probably you
will have like persons working like in that task,
like focusing in a task like for hours, no interruptions,
no matter what is happening outside, like the
world could be falling apart and the neurodivergent...
people will still be focusing on the task. And
that is really amazing to have like that. It's
not that easy to take you away from that state
and you can trust that person will fulfill the
task very well. Okay. So your diagnosis of the
problem, you know, echoed with the people who
were present in that meetup by reference earlier
of neurodiverse people from everywhere in the
movement. And actually I should describe, you
know, how you organize this meeting or should
I say where you created that meeting in a spare
room of a convention center and there were dim
lights in a corridor where there wasn't a lot
of noise and you invited people to sit on the
floor in a circle or in a chair at their convenience.
You took really, you know, measures that, um,
promoted inclusivity for neurodiverse people,
but that looks from, you know, an outsider perspective
that looks really out there, you know, it's not
your, uh, conventional, um, office looking corporate
looking scene. Um, and so I guess two questions
in there. First of all, How do we create inclusive
spaces for neurodiverse people? And what do you
make of the fear of going too far from conventions
and, you know, the normal way of doing things?
Well, I will start with the first question. Probably
you will have to repeat the other one because
hello ACAC. But yeah. How do we create a space
is more inclusive? Yeah, I remember what? That
that made other specifically in a bar And I remember
that I asked specifically for that for a room
that was very quiet like isolated from all the
noise because I know that conference like For
myself, but for other people as well can be very
very I don't know how can I say this word in
English actually, but you can feel easily drained
after that, all during the conference. So I wanted
to create a space for people to feel free to
behave as they want within, of course, the bonds
of common respect between us. That's why I never
push any anyone to like talk about their diagnosis
only if they wanted to because actually that
is one of the measures I will take in my workplace
that I will never ask for the people to Specify
like the diagnosis behind the neurodivergent
like there is like eight conditions in an hour
divergent spectrum I don't need to know what
is yours I just need to know what are your specific
needs so I can cover those needs, make all the
accommodations for you to feel comfortable, to
feel safe, to feel valued, to feel seen, respected.
More important for me, for the people to really
feel like... connected to the team like oh my
gosh this team really is something else like
they really value me they really see me and there
you will find like the whole connection of the
person with the mission and it's something that
we really should look for in the movement. So
that's what I try to apply in my daily life,
like running an organization, leading an organization,
myself. I have never asked for a diagnosis. And
I start all this work environment with telling
them, in the first interview, we are inclusive
space for all diversity. including neurodiversity.
So if you need like certain accommodation, please
tell me that there is no need to share with all
of the team, but you can tell me and I will make
sure that you can feel comfortable in this. Like
very specific, I don't know, I will mention an
example very, very specific. We had to me and
another person of the team. We have to share
room for EAG London in June and I made like a
like very I don't know normal average document
of like Agreement between two of us of sharing
the room, but I added like a space where me or
her can add their specific needs for those nights
that we're gonna share a room. Like for example,
she was very sensitive to some noises during
the night. So I... put all my effort to avoid
like my night because I'm a person of I'm a night
owl so I put all my efforts to avoid to disrupt
that to not make her feel like uncomfortable
so I took my MacBook and I went downstairs to
work for like my night shift so I think those
kind of accommodations could be really, and she
was very grateful about that. And, and of course
I will, I will expect for her to do the same
if I, if I told her like, you know, I had this
specific need. So yeah, I think those very little
steps that we can take and make a whole difference,
you know, work environments. Yeah. What do you
make of the people who will hear that and say,
listen, it's not my responsibility to do everything
I can to, you know, make your space of work comfortable
for you. Like you need to give a little and,
you know, just adapt to the way we do things
here. Yeah, the typical speech and it's not only
on the animal movement. animal focusing movement.
I have experienced that speech in my professional
life before the animal movement, when I was working
in buffets of lawyers, and it happens a lot.
First of all, you cannot be an neurodivergent
person and still have traits. of a neurodivergent
condition. Not the full diagnosis, but still
have traits, like sensitivity, hypersensitivity,
or specifically to, I don't know, noises, or
textures, or smells, or other kind of sensitivity.
And that doesn't mean that you have the whole,
like... the whole list of traits to be a neurodivergent
person. So first of all, I will start telling
them that it's not just the neurodiversity, it's
how complex is people. Actually, there is a new
term that is being discussed currently. There
is no neurodiversity, it's neurocomplexity. We
are, all of us are very complex human beings.
Like the human being is a very complex kind of
animal, if you think about it. And it could be
very complicated to adjust for everyone. So just,
I will say that we don't have to adjust. We don't
have to create like a neutral space. Like from
the... starting with the perspective that none
of us, neurodivergent or not, should be exposed
to these kinds of situations. I think we have
been exposed to different situations over the
years. And I think we started to normalize them.
Not everyone is an early bird. Not everyone can...
I don't know, wake up like at 5 a .m. and start
the day like going to the gym or doing yoga.
I mean, I love the people. I wish I was one of
them, but I'm not. So I think the pandemic actually
showed like a very good opportunity for these
improvements, like to start working remotely.
and therefore to have less supervision on how
you distribute your own schedules, your own hours.
And I think actually it took a lot of pressure
away from people like, I don't know, they don't
want to dress like formally every day, they don't
want to leave. I don't know, they have a specific
anxiety of leaving their homes. Usually bosses
or leader, well, I will use the word bosses,
are not very involved in what is happening with
their work employees. So probably like I will
say like more than the half of them are struggling
in silence, but you are not creating the spaces
for them to tell you. So that's why you see like
you can see that everyone is doing fine. and
when someone says something because I don't know
they just can't cope anymore you tell they tell
them you can go somewhere else I mean look at
this we have 20 people and all of them is working
well they hadn't told me like anything and you're
the only one with this problem so obviously you
have to go But have you really created the spaces
for all the other 20 people to tell you what
is happening in their lives? Like maybe they're
really struggling to take the public transportation
every day to go to work and they start their
day in the office, go into the bathroom and cry.
I've seen that. I lived through that. So I will
say that that's like the normalization behind
I will start like if I'm not an neurodivergent
boss I will start like questioning myself like
have I made like enough feedback service or have
I created this space maybe Friday afternoon all
the team like share like an informal retreat
I don't know to share experiences they don't
have to tell me their problems but somehow Within
the conversation, you will notice that not everyone
else is doing 100 % good. I think that will be
my advice. A weird follow up question. Do you
think the problem starts not at the workplace,
but in the schools? Because I was... a VP of
a nonprofit that was taking care of educating
teachers, social workers, physicians about giftedness,
which is in the spectrum of neurodiversity. And
the biggest issue that neurodiverse people were
meeting in their life, and they were always going...
back to that was school. School was a traumatizing
experience because of the degree of conformity,
because there was no space for, you know, weirdness
or you would get bullied, you know, mercilessly.
So it comes from the teachers. It comes also
from your fellow students. And you are also in
this infant. part of your life where, you know,
you're discovering yourself and you don't know
much about what's happening and why you're different
from others. So it's a very difficult period.
And I feel like schools are not making enough
efforts to help neurodiverse people. Actually,
I have a very good example, like of myself, um,
very interesting story. to answer this question.
And I always try to tell this story because it
changed everything for me. I was seven years
old. I think I had a friend in second grade.
We were uniforms. We usually wear uniforms here
in Chile. And the thing is, she told me that
her... stockings like the socks were too tight
around her cuffs. So I helped her by grabbing
a scissor and cutting the elastic with scissors
because the elastic was too tight. That was a
problem. So my seven year old found a solution
very quickly. The teacher saw this and called
my parents. She told them that this is not normal.
Nobody else behaves like this. That was out of
the box thinking, actually. They weren't ready
to see that. They're not informed about this.
They sent me to all kinds of therapies. like
psychologists, neurologists, educational psychologists,
all of them. I remember kind of traumatizing,
but it wasn't too tiny because of all the games
that they made you do. But I remember going to
a lot of therapies and they made like a lot of
tests. That's when my parents received the formal
diagnosis like she has hyperactivity and probably
she has ADHD but the thing is she has so high
grades at that time the high grades were like
excluding like if you had high grades there was
no way to have like the whole ADHD diagnosis.
Now we know that especially for girls and women
we can be very functional and have high grades
and still be ADHD. And my father always told
this story very proud, of course, that the neurologist
stood up and shook his hand and told him, you
have a very normal girl. She's just different
in her intelligence. She's extremely intelligent,
like extremely smart. So be proud of it, do not
shame her anyway, like in any way. And that's
why they did, like they give me all the support
like at home. So yeah, I struggled a lot in school.
I kept like, I went to dollar school like one
more year and then I changed to other school
and I changed the schools like eight times because
I never felt like completely comfortable in these
environments because they're very, if you go
to a school, I don't know how it is in the U
.S. or Canada or like in the Global North, but
in the Global South, Latin America, if you go
to a school, it's very neurotypical. And the
schools that are more like inclusive or like
neurodivergent inclusive are very, like the costs
are too high. They're not affordable for all
people. So I think not all people can expect
to have access to that kind of education. So
we have to settle ourselves with the common education.
And the common education is very structured in
a way. You have to go to school from 8 to 4 p
.m. and you have times for the classes, you have
things that you've been expected to do in those
classes, you have breaks of 15 minutes, you have
another break of half an hour when you have to
have lunch. And you will find a lot of girls
and boys, like children in general, that are
struggling with those conventional structures.
Myself, when I started going to the high school,
from 14 to 18 years old here. I always, I started
having my first problems with punctuality because
I started going by myself to high school, not
by my parents. They didn't carry me anymore.
So I started going by myself and I always ended
up going to school like 9 a .m. I always excuse
myself like look I got up like six in the morning
I can do like any more than this I mean this
is my top like commitment with this and actually
they were very in that school where they were
very understanding but that's not the situation
for all children for all teenagers so I think
I don't have the solution for the educational
problem but I I 100 % agree that it all starts
in the educational stage because we are kind
of being modeled to adapt to certain structures
and they don't allow yourself to explore other
kind of systems. So I think that's one thing
that creates, of course, the un -flexibility
in the boss in the future, and the struggle,
the internal struggles, emotional struggles of
the employee in the future that have been masking
themselves for like 20 years. You kind of I don't
know if you're familiar with the masking but
if you mask like for 20 years or even for a whole
weekend and it can really really like Throw you
on the floor like I've been myself in conference
I found myself like in conference crying every
single night because even if I love to talk to
people it feels like A lot of effort so imagine
that during all this school period and then your
whole work life no escape because nobody told
you that you have a another option. Yeah great
point for those you know for listeners who don't
know what masking is it's like it's all of that
intellectual energy and emotional energy that
you're putting in. trying to look normal and
look uh like everyone else and and don't deviate
from from the norm and when you offer so basically
when you offer you know inclusive spaces uh you're
relieving people from that pressure from that
expectation to mask in you know coming for work
yeah what do you make of working from home because
I was listening to a conversation during COVID,
a podcast interview with the head and I think
founder of WordPress, and it was on the Sam Harris
Show podcast. And he said that I think he's neurodiverse,
he's ADHD, like most founders and entrepreneurs,
he's neurodiverse. I mean, the biggest one that
I have in mind is Elon Musk, he's autistic. um
but he was saying you know i established working
from home long before covid for me this was the
most inclusive and best space for my employees
uh it wasn't only you know great for their family
life um because you know they were always at
home so they could you know um take the children
to school and all of that But also it was great
for who they were. They had control over their
space. And he went through a list of advantages
of working from home. And he wished that after
COVID, we would progress as a society and give
this option forever, to be able to work from
home. Now, not all employers. uh, have seen the
light after COVID, many of them have, um, obligated
their employees to go back to work. So what do
you make of that whole debate? Well, first of
all, we have to acknowledge that for some people
still it's not more comfortable to work from
home. Uh, even neurodivergent people I, I've
been, I talked to, um, they, maybe they don't
look for the social connection, but working outside
gives them more structure, like more routine,
more routine. And some people in the neurodivergent
spectrum is full of surprises. Like you will
find yourself like craving routine, but rejection
structures that others put on you, but And you
need to, but you're still gonna look for your
own structure, like in your daily life. So for
some people, it's very comfortable to work outside.
Myself, COVID happened in my final year of law
school. It was the only year where I achieved
top marks in several subjects, like, I was a
person in high school with very high grades.
That's why I ended up going to the best law school
in Chile. That was a huge achievement. But you
can imagine my frustration when I started law
school and my grades weren't high anymore. So
this final year when COVID happened and the world
was literally falling apart. In Chile we had
our own political problems as well. I found myself
more comfortable than ever and having top marks
in subjects that I never thought of. And that
of course helped me a lot. But I still have a
lot of problems working from home or studying
from home. Like I have two dogs and a cat and
the dogs, well not the cat, but the dogs are
very much like children and they need attention
like at all times. So I don't have that disconnection
like my work separate from home. So I find myself
like very, a lot of times during the day, like
struggling to get some work done and like turning
between the work and the house task and the attention
to my companion animals. So I think it should
be an option for... I don't believe in creating
like works that are 100 % remote. I think we
still have to have a space where people can go...
if they want to get out of the house because
I don't know they have a lot of problems inside
their home with their family animals whatever
we all need like that time out so we need a safe
space to go and work comfortable and quietly
but we have to have the option for the people
that really really hates going out and really
wants to stay in their houses, in pajamas, in
PJs, or I don't know, and working at their own
rhythm. I think having that flexibility is really,
really necessary. And I understand that for founders,
executives, entrepreneurs, it's very... easy
for them to say like, oh no, yeah, all my remote
work is 100 % better. Because they all usually
have like a lot of help at home. I mean, they
have the means to pay like domestic help, you
know, but for the normal employee, we don't have
that. We don't have like the extra amount of
money to pay for a person that help us and that
can attend your children or your animal children
in the meantime you work. So I think we still
have to be very careful with like this opposite
views like 100 % remote and 100 % in person.
I think those extreme visions are the responsibles
of a lot of employees feeling unseen and unvalued,
burning out, having depression, very hidden in
themselves. So I think, yeah. But I can see why
Elon Musk and other founders can say that. It's
very comfortable and easy for them. Yes, I mean,
I'm not a morning person and working from home
has allowed me to, you know, not wake up very
early in order to go and take public transit
and find myself, you know. surrounded with strangers
at impossible hours of the morning. Like, no,
thank you. Um, I mean, also, I mean, also you
have to think about like the time you have to
like between your home and your work depends
on the city. But I mean, I've been in Mexico
city. I don't know if you have been there, but
it's by far one of the The city is amazing and
for the listeners that have been there they will
agree with me but you can be easily two hours
of public transportation to go like anywhere
and the traffic is Horrible, and I come from
a capital in my country. I was born and raised
in Santiago But I never experienced that I mean
The maximum that it took me was like an hour
to go from my home to some school, but yeah,
there are other cities and that also, and I like
to use this concept, kills the spirit. Like you
would probably not, you would not feel like physical
exhausted, but it kills your spirit over time.
I call them urban jangles. I love that term because
it shows it's the law of the strongest in the
jungle and all of that. It's very ferocious,
very violent in a way. I don't like big cities.
For me, a big city is Montreal. Every time I
have people from elsewhere visit Montreal, they
tell me, Montreal is not a city. Montreal is
like a park. Montreal is lots of trees and very
calm. In my country, it's a suburb. There's also
the fact that I'm Canadian and I'm not used to
the true big cities. We talked about founders
being often ADHD and and all of that. And I feel
it ties well with what you were saying about
how there are many advantages of hiring neurodiverse
people. How do you explain that neurodiverse
people are entrepreneurial? Well, I don't know
if this is the official version, but I think
my explanation will be like for sure that as
we have different ideas. And I can talk from
my experience of what came in my mind, what happened
in my mind before I decided to found animal law
focus. I see the problems from a different perspective.
And I love to look for like the root of the problem
and to go deeper and deeper and deeper and try
to find a solution that can cover all of most
of the spaces in the future. I don't like to
feel like I'm working right now on this and this
will lead to another campaign in five years because
this was not very well covered in the first one.
I don't know if you follow me. I think I try
to find, if it's possible, of course. In some
cases, there is not possible. I try to find the
ultimate solution for problems. So I go to the
root of the problem. The majority of workplaces,
like in animal focusing movement, but in other
as well, I'm not very welcome to these other
ideas. So I just found myself like... maybe I
should try something like by myself. Because
it's the only way where I can put to test this
theory that I have, this solution that I've been
strategizing in my head for months. I will say
that it's not like a pursuit of your own... happiness,
like one more to a long list of achievements.
It's not like that. It's just like you feel trapped
because you're feeling different way. You only
see obstacles to develop your thinking, your
ideas. So you create it by yourself. You create
your own world. You create your own opportunity.
And I can see that. I mean, I have very strong
opinions on Elon Musk. but I can see why he did
what he did and I can see why all the other funders,
big funders, not myself and a tiny tiny founder
of a small organization in very south of the
world. I'm talking about the big ones I can see
why they pushed themselves to do that because
they were They came from a list of struggles
with other environments, even Elon Musk. I remember
where he spoke about his story. And the thing,
correct me if I'm wrong if you know this, but
he talked about having struggles in other work
environments and problems, like feeling like...
comfortable and all the common things from neurodivergent
people that can't be masking anymore. I think
that is a crucial point because when you became
so self -conscious and you feel like you cannot
handle more masking, like I can't do this anymore.
It's been too long. It's making me sick. mentally,
physically even, I can't do anymore. And that
happened to me last year. It was like, I can't
see myself going back to these environments.
And it came with, I quit to a job that I had
here in Chile. And after that, I couldn't see
myself like working again in that kind of system.
And I started a whole process of recognizing
this old diagnosis and recognizing myself as
an neurodivergent person and unmasking. Actually
my mom always tell me I see now things in you
that I haven't seen before. And it's because
I told mom it's because I'm not masking anymore
and actually has made me happier than ever. So
I think that that could be like the reason behind.
That is so touching and yes, it's a It's weird
every time I talk with founders not every every
time but most founders I I have spoken to Have
the same traits and are neuro diverse and whatever
culture you go to you know, it's always the same
personalities That are a typical that are you
know? unconventional in their thinking and and
all of that. Yes, it's something that I find
beautiful. You mentioned how in hiring in the
hiring process, you talk about how your organization
is inclusive to all people. all sexual orientation
and all of that. I've heard that before from
other organizations, but the neurodiverse part
is always missing. Everyone is named, everyone
except the neurodiverse people. How do you explain
that? Well, it's because I am neurodivergent
myself. I mean, I will not tell you that if I
was a neurodivergent, I will have the same self
-awareness like about this, I cannot, there's
no way I could find, I can't know that. So I
always tell everyone who, and we have a team,
a strong team of 12 people now, they're mostly
volunteers, but they work very, very hard and
they're very committed people. And I think that
they, I always told them that at first that myself,
I myself am an neurodivergent person and I respect
my privacy, I respect my rights of not coming
out with all the diagnosis in front and I would
never ask that from other person but I am so,
so conscious of what Could generate like a bad
work environment like a sick work environment
Can I'm healthy or environment can generate in
a person? I find myself leaving that exactly
that the shaming of emotions the flexibility
the a lot of other things that probably this
is not the place and talk about but But yeah,
I believe through that and I know the pain that
it can cause. So from that knowledge, I cannot
act in any other way than just be as inclusive
as possible, as flexible as possible. And I think
I took it like a sort of activism. Like I told
you, I didn't study psychology, but... lot of
people in my family are psychologists and I've
been like involved in psychology for like most
of my life since this Event in a school that
I told you So I think and I read a lot so I think
I Took it like a I don't know how to say but
the obligation of mine that I I am an older virgin.
I lived through the struggles. I've been shamed
for being a different person. Even if that other
person didn't know about my diagnosis, you don't
have to know. It's the same with the sexual orientation.
You don't have to know that. You just have to
respect. You just have to make everyone feel
as comfortable as possible. That is your only
job. I don't have any... obligation to disclose
my personal problems with you. So that's why,
well, in our internal policies, of course, you
find the typical one, the gender, no, the gender
discrimination, sexual harassment and everything.
I included neurodiversity policies to just create
like this environment For me to feel comfortable,
but of course for other people as I told you
I think the the push for a lot of funders to
to start their own company or foundation organization
is you have you want to like create an another
kind of world for you and You have this magnificent
opportunity to craft it like as you want And
I think, yeah, I just, I always use the sentence
that what would I like to, how would I like to
be treated? And what would I like to see in another,
in this space as a volunteer, as an employee?
And from that, from that position, I started
like creating these policies, standard policies
that are very, very strict in a way of. that
we have to follow them like two in order to have
a healthy environment. Yes beautiful and i applaud
you for for those efforts to finish our conversation
i was wondering about the link between neurodiversity
and veganism and that reminds me of a conversation
i had with whispers red do you know whispers
red she's an ASMR artist. and i invited her on
the show way back then i think it's one of the
first episodes of the vegan report and we were
talking about hypersensitivity and how that hypersensitivity
naturally guided uh whispers red emma to uh becoming
vegan because she was receptive to the suffering
of animals and i'm wondering you know Um, is
there more neurodiverse people in the vegan community
because of that, because of the presence of that
hypersensitivity? And do you think that we should
make more efforts to target vegan advocacy to
neurodiverse people? Um, again, I don't have
the exact numbers of anything, but yeah, from
my perspective, it's highly connected. Like the
neurodivergence to a lot of kind of activism
veganism specifically because we are so we see
everything and feel everything in a more intense
way so from that you can expect that we will
feel like very exposed to this kind of suffering
that a lot of people um they they are not affected
by that even if they show like I see neurotypical
persons that even if they if you show them videos
and stuff they will not change their mind because
it's not because They they don't they don't deny
the suffering that they are seeing it's because
simply they cannot engage with that suffering
We're not I'm not saying that we can we cannot
convert that of course, but I am trying to explain
that what is happening. They don't connect with
that suffering in a personal way. It generates
a lot of dissociation, of course. In neurodivergent
persons, that doesn't happen. Like in most of
the cases that I've seen, that doesn't happen.
You have this ability, this extremely high empathy
to feel this as if it were your own suffering.
you feel like compelled to do something. I don't
know where that's coming from, honestly, but
I felt it and I've seen it in other colleagues
in the animal advocacy movement that you feel
compelled to act because of that. Now, I don't
know if I can take this space here to talk about
the, very quickly, not the funny... or the good
things about the connection of the neurodivergent
and veganism, because in my experience, I have
this sensitivity, of course, and I have this
emotional connection, but I still am a neurodivergent
person, and that means that I have other traits
that didn't make it easier for me to become vegan.
And that also can happen. I wrote an article
and linked it in about this and I saw that a
lot of people can relate to that. It goes both
ways. Maybe if you have a texture sensitivity
specifically or smell or flavor and that generates
that causes that you become vegan. In my case,
that delayed my conversion to veganism because
I had a specific obsessions with textures of
certain food that came from animals. And that
specific obsession, it was pleasant for me. So
it was like a huge internal struggle fight with
myself. Because of course, my morality and all
my feelings and my heart and mind was like vegan.
I couldn't fight like enough with this need of
feel this pleasantness like immediately as an
ADHD person we're always looking for dopamine
like as faster as possible so this was like a
very fast way like to consume this specific food
because it caused me like a very pleasant experience
inside and it calmed my urge, my need for this
dopamine instantly. So I had to do a lot of work
on changing that habit to finally become fully
vegan. So I think it could be like the emotional
part, yeah, it's a very strong connection, but
we still have another traits that could be more
complicated to to relate to veganism. So that's
why I think nobody talks about this enough. We
always tell people that veganism is extremely
easy. But for some of us, we still have to acknowledge
that it's not 100 % easy. It's a commitment that
you have to make. And that you could face obstacles
even in your body. to achieve that. But I think
what make us like really, really good vegans
is because we are so conscious about this and
we're willing to fight ourselves like this horrible
habit that I had in order to erase it. We can
take our habits. That's proven. That's been proven.
So to stop eating animals. And I think that's
like at the end of the day, that's the commitment
that we value as a movement, that even if it's
difficult for you, for whatever reason, you're
still willing to make that commitment every single
day, and you're still willing to change your
habits, because the emotional connection to all
this suffering weighs a lot more. I see where
you're coming from. And I'm not of the belief
that everyone can be vegan. I do believe there
are obstacles to being vegan that we can't just,
you know, brush off like if it's nothing. Some
people have eating disorders. How are you going
to address that? Making a big change like becoming
vegan is just psychologically unreachable for
them. Other people have um, belong to religious
tradition where eating animals is part of their
faith. Now, what are you going to tell them that
God is wrong, that they should abandon their
faith? You know, it's, I could go on and on.
It's more complex than what mainstream vegan
activists make it to be. Like, um, we're, we're
very, like we're saying, you know, neuro complex
neuro diverse, um, and culturally diverse, and
we have to take that into account and not make
it the default thing. I'm all for initiatives
that promote becoming vegetarian or reducing
your animal consumption intake. I feel like those
are more inclusive approaches. I also think that,
you know, if you want to advocate for veganism,
you should, you know, it's all right to, you
know, you're going to talk to a lot of people
for whom it will resonate, but you should also
accept that for many others, this won't resonate
and you need to be flexible with your approach
with those people. Like, are you going to just
deny having a conversation with them and building
a bridge with them. Instead of just being angry
at them for not becoming vegan, propose alternatives.
Become a donor for a vegan cause or an animal
rights cause. Like I said earlier, become vegetarian
or become vegan one day a week, something like
that. Build a bridge. We cannot forget the economic
obstacle for a lot of people that happens in
the Global South. Not all of us have the access,
like economic, financial situation to access
the vegan options that could be or not be affordable,
depending on where you live, depending on what
kind of vegan food that you're consuming. I was
born and raised in a capital. That capital is
one of the top ten with a lot of vegan options,
but where I live now, honestly, I have two, three
vegan restaurants as an option. Of course, that
would not stop me from being vegan like myself,
but I'm talking about in general. how can we
expect of all the people becoming vegan so easily
as ourselves if they don't have this access and
usually those restaurants are not very affordable.
So they will probably not be in front of vegan
food, like really good vegan food prepared in
a vegan restaurant, you know, that kind of experience
that... could change a lot in a person and open
them to, oh, this is actually very good. I would
100 % eat a tofu prepared in a vegan restaurant
that I prepared by myself because I'm a terrible
cook. And I would probably take my mother to
eat tofu in that vegan restaurant, not made by
myself, for her to have the the most pleasant
experience with the vegan options. But again,
not everyone can afford that. And even Chile
is one of the most developed countries in Latin
America. I will say like the top one. You can
go to other places, to other countries, and you
will find like even harder than here. Yeah, even
here in North America, there are food deserts,
you know, in the middle of um, wealthy cities
where families do not have access to, um, affordable,
nutritious, fiber rich food. Um, and this is
my first complaint with vegan restaurants. I
I've said that so many times to friends. Um,
I cannot believe how how much a salad can cost
in a vegan restaurant. When I look at the list
of ingredients and I read carrots and lettuce
and tomatoes, those are cheap ingredients. Why
am I paying an arm for this salad or this? It
leads you to think that what is happening with
the owner behind that restaurant, if that owner
is that owner really vegan for animals or is
maybe trying just to offer like a new idea of
food and make a profit of it because I've seen
to the two sides and when a restaurant or a small
restaurant not a big one like lead by a vegan
by a person that is vegan for the animals and
their own concern is to put this food accessible
to everyone is a very different story than when
you see like a person behind the restaurant.
They're just trying to create new recipes that
go with the fashion right now, I don't know,
and make a profit of it. So yeah. Completely
agree. My favorite restaurant is a Buddhist restaurant
and It's an old couple that has this restaurant
and they make the best vegan food out there.
And it's so cheap. I can't believe it. You know,
every time. So yeah, they do it for the animals.
They do it for ethical reasons. They do it because
of their religious beliefs. And it's beautiful.
Safina, did you want to add something before
we stop the recording? I don't think so. I really
enjoyed this conversation and I really hope to...
I think maybe the only thing that I want to add
is, of course, if any expert on this, listen
to this, do not take it like I'm sharing a full
truth with the world because I'm just sharing
my perspective. I'm always learning. I'm always
open to keep learning about this. I'm actually
traveling to EAGX Sao Paulo this weekend and
I will be leading an neurodiversity meetup probably
like a lot as the Ava one. I'm so grateful that
you find like a great space to share. That was
like the purpose behind. I just hope that If
any of what I told in this conversation makes
another founder or leader or person involved
in the animal advocacy movement to question themselves
and to just try to make this exercise to maybe
I should listen to my colleagues in a more careful
way, in a more open way, I think that would be
amazing. That's beautiful. And I really am really
happy about your efforts. And don't worry about,
you know, not being an expert. I'm pretty sure
and that's a bit sad, but I'm pretty sure that
those issues have not been studied and we don't
really have data. I don't have any interest in
studying a second career. I'm very well covered
with one, just one. Yeah, I completely understand
the sentiment. Sabina, thank you so much for
having taken the time to discuss this important
topic and for all the great animal rights work
you're doing. Thank you. Thank you again for
the opportunity and for your work for animals
as well. Thank you everyone for listening. I
kindly invite you to share this podcast with
the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people
to take action. Again, thank you so much for
caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a
new episode.