Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan
and today an exclusive window into a high stakes
world at the heart of the animal rights movement.
Hear from the fundraisers, driving the dollars
that fuel the fight for animals. Those conversations
are very common among professional animal advocates,
yet always behind closed doors. That is, until
now. To discuss this topic, I have with me Alice
Mueller -Coleman, Development Manager for Balanced,
and Liz Wheeler, Philanthropy Managers for Philanlytics.
Among other things, we talked about the dangers
of toxic work environments. What power do funders
hold over animal organizations? And why are sanctuaries
the ugly duckling of fundraising? Balance and
Phoneletics are two amazing organizations that
deserve your support. Visit the episode notes
to connect with them. Lastly, don't forget to
show some love for this podcast. Follow the show,
share this episode, leave a five -star review.
Every gesture of support counts. Thank you. Liz,
Alice, welcome to the show. Thank you so much
for being here. Um, I guess to get us started,
uh, an icebreaker question, maybe, uh, one of
my favorite question to ask is who is your vegan
hero and why? Alice, do you have somebody on
the top of your head? No, and I'm embarrassed
to say it. I do. So I'll go. So, I mean, for
some folks who know me, I'm Canadian. I don't
say A that much, so hopefully it won't catch
me up in the podcast, but it might start coming
out a little twangy. My vegan hero is Camille
Labchuk. So she's the executive director of an
organization called Animal Justice here in Canada.
and a huge reason why I went vegan. My journey
in veganism, I was vegetarian for like 12 years.
And it really wasn't until I started listening
to the Animal Justice podcast that she was hosting,
where I started to learn more about the inherent
cruelty of the systems of dairy and eggs. And
so yeah, she she's definitely one of the driving
forces behind the trajectory of my life now.
Wonderful. That is so beautiful. Fellow Canadian.
I love that. My husband's actually in Vancouver
right now, so he's there championing your team
as well. I can't choose one person. I think when
you've worked in this field long enough, I know
thousands of really wonderful humans, some more
than others, and I feel like I love so many people
in different ways. I, you know, on top of mine,
I'm thinking like, Chef Tara Panzone from Pura
Vida. She's like bringing her culinary experience
and making her grandma's dishes yet veganized.
And I'm thinking about Matcha, who sells like
French pastries at the farmers markets. And I'm
thinking of Jean Bauer. And I'm thinking of our
executive director, Audrey Lawson Sanchez. And
I can't choose one. I just can't. It's also a
good answer. So both of you are fundraising for
different organizations. I would love if you
could tell us a bit more about analytics and
also balance. Yeah, I mean, so Faunalytics, I'm
new -ish to the team. I've been with them for
about three and a half years, which I consider
new for like the 25 -year history that the organization
has. We're an organization that conducts and
shares research and data for animal advocates.
So we have three key programs. One is our original
research. So we will conduct studies, meta -analysis.
and reports that help fill gaps in animal advocates'
knowledge. It can be anything from what is effective
tactics and messaging to more niche areas. We
did a study with, mentioning Gene Bauer -Alice,
we did a study with Farm Sanctuary in 2021 that
looked at a sanctuary tours effectiveness. We
also have a research library. So there are over
6 ,000 research study summaries, infographics,
blog posts, and that's all free access for anybody
who wants to go online and is looking for any
kind of information. You can sort it by region.
You can sort it by keywords. You can actually
sort by species if you want, by tag. So if you're
looking for fundraising, there's a bunch of fundraising
articles on there too. And then third is our
research support program. So that's where we
help advocates actually take that research that
they've just learned and how to actually put
it into practice. So any individual advocates
or organizations can come to us and and ask questions
about how to apply that researcher data and or
also like how to conduct a really effective survey.
We do that too. So that's about Phonilytics.
Wonderful. And I recently covered one of your
study with one of your affiliated researcher
Bjorn are protest helping animals or hurting
them, something like that. So go check this episode.
It's truly interesting. What about you, Alice?
Yeah, so I'm the development manager over at
Balanced and Balanced was started in 2017 by
Audrey Lawson Sanchez, as I mentioned before.
She's a mother and former educator, and she recognized
that something needed to be done about school
food. And so we are a public health and nutrition
security advocacy organization that works on
institutional diet change, primarily in K through
12 schools. One thing I didn't know is 75 % of
all K through 12 schools are self -op, so there's
a need for a lot of hands -on support. And so
we do that in our various programmatic areas.
One is community -led advocacy. providing resources
and assistance to the community members that
want to see change where they eat. Second is
institutional support. They're the ones that
are really working side by side with the food
service teams and doing a lot of exciting things
through our plant -based cohort, which is a six
month program, really getting into the nitty
gritty. And then we have a nutrition research
and policy team as well. So our Our team is working
on a data analysis project right now, which is
looking to find the fiber content of school meals.
That's also great work. Please connect with Pheneletics
Unbalanced. Link in the episode notes. Okay.
Fundraising. I feel like this is one of the topics
that goes really like under the radar of most
people, like they don't think about fundraising,
they don't think about the fundraisers. We're
like this, you know, truly part of the behind
the scenes team. So let me start with this. How
did you become a fundraiser? How did you fall
into this, this job? Maybe you Liz? Gosh, yeah.
Okay, I'm very, very lucky. I started my career
with animals about 15 years ago, I started working.
Well, I was volunteering actually at my local
Humane Society. And through volunteering there,
I was able to get a job in their foster department,
which is actually like more animal care. It's
working with the animals doing things like subcu
fluids and vaccines and very hands on. But To
my luck, the Humane Society is actually a unionized
environment and it was a contract position. So
in order to stay in with the organization, I
had to apply for whatever jobs would come up
and there was one in the development department.
So I got really, really lucky in that way that
things just kind of aligned. And so I took a
job in the development department. department
just entering donations because I inevitably
wanted to go back to the foster department, but
then I ended up falling in love with the fundraising.
So started there and then started working at
an organization formerly known as the Canadian
Federation of Humane Societies, now known as
Humane Canada, and then eventually made my way
to Phonolitics today. But yeah, I've been working
on fundraising for like 10 years. It just feels
like what I've done my whole life. I know 10
years is like nothing in comparison to a lot
of seasoned fundraisers. But yeah, unfortunately,
my journey is not very exciting. I kind of had
it easy because I just got a job with the Humane
Society. And then they were like, do you want
to enter in donations? And I was like, yeah.
But that's an interesting reaction to fundraising,
because when I talk about fundraising to people,
I see, you know, in their eyes, fear, I see boredom,
I see, you know, a mix of emotions that you know,
fall far away from the spectrum of falling in
love. So I guess quick follow up question, what
made you fall in love? I think it's just like
the idea that I could do one of the things that
I'm most passionate about, which is really like,
at the end of the day, I see fundraising is connecting
people who love animals with animals. And so
that can come in. Like such a variety of different
ways when you're fundraising and it's definitely
not a boring job. I think once people like get
into the day to day of it, people from my experience
are like wary of it because of the whole idea
of having to ask for money but I think a lot
of fundraisers who get into it realize it's really
not about that. It's about building relationships.
And I'm a very social person. I'd love to connect
with people. I'm also very nosy. So I just like
to know more about people and like what they
have going on and like what their hobbies and
interests are. So it's a really good mix for
my personality type. Yeah, I hope that answered
it. Those are indeed fitting qualities for the
fundraising profession. Okay, Alice, what about
you? What was your journey into fundraising?
Totally, I was thinking about it before the call
a little bit. And I just kind of had a flashback
of being a kid and doing door to door lemonade
sales. I wasn't even going to like have a table.
I just went door to door. And then I started
a little dog -walking business when I was 12.
And I remember I came home from my freshman year
of college and my dad said, you need to get a
job. So I went on Craigslist and called Greenpeace,
got an interview for the next day, and I started
canvassing on and off for multiple years. And
so my start was asking people for their credit
card information on the sidewalk. And, you know,
if you can do that, you can kind of do anything.
It's perfect for college kids. I feel like it
really gets you out of your comfort zone, and
you have to navigate a lot of real -time responses.
And then the way that I've found myself into
the animal rights space is I started as Milo
Runkle's executive assistant at Mercy for Animals.
I remember I participated in putting together
the staff retreats and each department would
put on a little skit. And the fundraising team
just had the best skit. And it's so silly, but
I was just like seeing them up there and they
were all fun and personable. They were relationship
builders. They're still some of my good friends
today. And I think when you think of it from
a relationship perspective, like you were saying,
Liz, I mean, you're building relationships and
hyping up other people. It's pretty great. You
know, it's a harder thing to do to sell yourself.
You're selling people who are doing great things
and you believe in what their work is. Like,
I don't know, I feel very lucky to have landed
in and feel very lucky to have landed at Balanced
in particular. What a rough start. Like this
is one of the worst jobs out there having to
ask people for money, like in the streets. Did
you have any coping mechanism? What was the feeling
like at the end of the day? Did you need a drink?
I mean, I was 18, so sheer ignorance, I think.
I was just like, oh, this is what it means to
work. You know? And the people were fun, too.
I mean, you're just like, you care about polar
bears, right? And then you talk about... chimpanzees
or orangutans or the rainforest and get silly
with it. So yeah, it was a, there was a lot of
weirdness and it was a really good experience.
Okay. So fundraising is all about, you know,
like Liz said, creating, building those relationships
and strengthening them. So how do you convince
someone? of making a donation. How people come
to make a donation to a cause. What's that psychology
that, you know, brings us to express generosity?
Alice, do you want to go first? I mean, I think
it's like, you know, we all have this vision
of the type of world we want to live in. And
there are going to be things that Me like matter
more to me or you Ryan or you Liz or to the random
person down the street and It you know, we all
have that vision, right? so whether it is a world
where animals are treated with kindness and compassion
or People want to make sure that people don't
go hungry or they want to combat climate change,
or any sort of these avenues. There are things
that people believe in, and it's an investment
in the future that you want to see, or direct
response to things that are happening that have
a shorter life cycle in many ways. And so I think
it's just the psychology is you're investing
in the world that you want to live in. Yeah,
I love that. I would echo everything that Alice
just said. I think the approach that I tried
to take to it is not seeing it as like asking
something of somebody, but providing them an
opportunity to fulfill what they want to do already.
So we know people are very, very charitable,
but a lot of the times when people make a donation
to our organization, they already are involved
in the space. They're already animal advocates,
maybe they've used our services in the past,
or they know somebody who's benefited from them.
And so our job is less about convincing people
to donate, like they've already made up their
mind, they're going to donate somewhere, they
want to support our movement, they want to see
it progress. So it's just trying to communicate
with them how we can help them achieve their
mission and figure out if we're a good fit for
them. I know it can take years to like get somebody
to commit to a gift, but that doesn't mean that
they're not interested. It just means that you
haven't figured out the psychology around like
what, what is their motivation for giving? Like
what legacy do they want to give? Even if it's
like a $5 monthly donation to me, like when I'm
donating to organizations, it's because I want
to see like progress in my lifetime. I want to
see animal cruelty. like slow down, I would love
to see it end. But you know, that's rose colored
glasses on but I always just try and treat it
like we can help people achieve what they want.
I'm asking this because it feels more and more
aliens to alien to our societies. you know, to
make a donation without expecting anything in
return. Everything is so transactional nowadays.
You always expect something in return. So witnessing
people just donating for the sake of donating
is an intriguing behavior. Yeah, so I was really
lucky. I got to go to the Association of Fundraising
Professionals conference earlier in the year
and it was really eye -opening. I mean, we know
that the animal protection space, I'm just going
to reference it as animal protection, animal
welfare rights protection all under the same
umbrella. But like the farmed animal protection
movement specifically is so like we are dealing
with a very small pot of money compared to like
charitable giving. There is billions upon hundreds
of billions of dollars in charitable giving.
Farmed animal production gets about like 200
to 250 million of that. So we're already dealing
with like such a small piece of the pie, but
we're also lucky in that sense that people who
are in our movement are so dedicated, are so
passionate about believing in this cause, that
it's really just about figuring out like what
their motivation is. And I bring this back to
AFP is because i was one of the only people there
from like an animal protection organization i
think there were like 10 of us in a sea of 3000
attendees um but there was one presentation um
by uh I can't remember the person's name from
giving Tuesday and they were talking about donors
motivation. It was like they either donate because
of like affinity. So they're connected to the
organization. They have a history of philanthropy.
So it's like what they're known their families
known to do what is expected of them or they
have connections. So they have somebody who's
benefited from what you do. That's more like
applicable in like hospital settings, for example,
or capacity. They've won the lottery. They have
sold a business and they have this ability to
give generously so they do it because they can.
So for us, we try and figure out which of those
they kind of fall into because then you can steward
them and kind of guide them and talk to them
based on what their motivation is. So I found
that that's been incredibly helpful. But yeah,
for any fundraisers who are listening to this,
AFP is incredible. And like there is just so
much information and there's a lot of data driven
information. Bing, Bing, Bing politics. I'm very
data driven. So I like to know like, okay, where
are the numbers? What what's showing this? Yeah,
I was really lucky a number of years ago, I think
it was my first year working in development.
My entire team went to AFP in New Orleans. And
that was like such a great team building experience
as well as an opportunity just to like hone skills,
especially as a newer fundraiser back at that
time. Yeah, I love AFP. I've been a member for
years, but I never went to their conferences.
Okay, so who is that donor? Can you draw a profile
of the typical donor to the animal cause? Do
we have more female donors or male donors? What's
the age range? Is there something about their
personality that makes them more inclined to
give to the animal cause? Think so. I feel like
Liz is gonna have the data handled no pressure
Liz but in from like a more emotional stance
on it like I feel like There is a huge range
you have your effective altruists that want to
rely on the data and they want to see the number
of lives that are impacted and they are more
motivated by the hard figures and then you have
the individuals that want to save the life that
is in front of them. Those are perhaps people
who want to fund sanctuaries, who want to, you
know, foster and adopt animals, focus on TNR
programs or things that are more maybe companion
animal or sanctuary related. And then in terms
of like our donors, I feel like a lot of them
fall, especially now as we have grown our institutional
support program, where they want to see the number
of meals impacted. We talk a lot about fiber.
Our whole thing is focused on fiber. And how
do you get more fiber on plates? It's plants.
You need plants for fiber. It's the only thing
that has it. And 97 % of Americans are deficient
in it. Our donors are typically those that care
about the number of meals impacted, also wanting
to see kids having access to healthier options.
And that might be different than those that fund
other organizations. And that's why I think it's
so wonderful that there are so many different
organizations that cover the spectrum and we
really need all of them. And what's great is
behind the scenes, a lot of us are working together.
That's so interesting. Let me raise this point.
Many times, strategically speaking, you can inspire
donations by addressing connected issues to your
cause. So you mentioned children. That is a way
in for donors who might not care about animals,
but might care about children and children nutrition.
Um, do you feel like this is, um, a good way
of approaching, you know, donors? Because I've
had this conversation with one sanctuary owner
and vegan activists who told me, um, I'm all
about veganism. I'm all about the cause. I want,
you know, uh, talk about connected issues, although
I could. because I feel this betrays the, you
know, core values of my organization. What do
you make of that? Oh, gosh. Okay, I have so much
to say about this question. So while Alice was
talking, I did pull up so there is a study that
well, it's a follow up study. So we have a reference,
I'll give it to you. It's called people who support
animal causes and who gives more. So we did look
at charity donor behavior. This is from 2019,
so take it with a grain of salt. We are now six
years later. But yeah, as far as demographics
go, people giving to animal causes as important
or seeing animal causes as important are going
to skew female, less religious, more liberal.
do you tend to have these like everyday animal
related behaviors so normally having a companion
animal and then when you're looking at monetary
donations specifically you're going to be looking
at demographics of those who have a higher income
their animal related behaviors they're probably
going to follow a vegan diet especially when
you're looking at farmed animal protection organizations
they may have animal appreciation related hobbies
they're We do have sections looking at donation
methods as well. I'm not gonna go through the
whole thing, but that's just kind of like a sneak
peek. So yeah, we definitely have looked at this.
As far as like what language to use, I will say,
don't say vegans. It's the easiest and most accessible
way. It doesn't mean that your mission is changing.
It's just the language that you're using. If
you fill out a grant application and you don't
mention vegan, but at the end of the day, your
work is pushing forward the shared mission of
ending animal suffering, does it really matter
if you use that language? No, because you're
still achieving your mission. So I would just
say, especially when you're looking at collaborating
with other either social justice causes, trying
to do cross cross sector funding with like education
or environment. Yeah, just don't say vegan plant
based. You don't even really say plant -based
all that much, though our cohort is the plant
-based cohort. We talk about fiber -rich, healthy,
plant -forward, fiber -forward. we don't use
the word vegan. And I don't think it dilutes
your work at all, because at the end of the day,
if you're alienating people by using specific
language, and so they're not willing to meet
you at the table or to like take on different
behavioral issues or giving, then you're basically
disservicing yourself and in turn the animals.
I mean, there's Some are going to care about
the environment. And if you have the ability
and the metrics to frame it that way, you're
being completely honest in the way that you're
approaching it. And it just so happens to benefit
animals. Liz, the study you referenced, I will
add that to the episode links, please send the
study my way. What about trends? Is the world
getting more generous or less generous? Is the
donation pot shrinking or increasing for the
animal cause? Do you see any trends? I think
that once more Liz is going to have the data.
I think that from what I understand, individual
giving is down and like, I mean, we all feel
it with inflation and just like how far the dollar
or whatever currency you use goes. And that is
a real thing. That doesn't mean people aren't
giving. I think we focus on the subscription
model of recurring and monthly giving. We have
become a subscription economy in many ways. So
that is one avenue. I think our revenue is growing,
but that is because we have shifted our focus.
And, you know, we primarily work with our major
funders and grants and the family foundations.
Yeah. So, yep, I came prepared. I have the data.
But before I jump into that, I do want to say
for anybody listening who's a fundraiser with
another organization, the struggle is real for
all of us. We're all feeling hurt right now.
2025 is... benchmark year, but not in a good
way. And it's not abnormal for us to be struggling.
So there is community here for other fundraisers.
I would be remiss not to give a shout out to
the Hive fundraising community calls. They're
a really great place to connect with other fundraisers.
We have calls every month. Every other month,
it's just a community led discussion where fundraisers
get to bring up. problems that they're having.
The calls aren't recorded, so it's a safe space
to kind of bounce ideas off of one another. And
then on the other months, we have experts come
and talk to us and do Q &As. We had Megan from
Greenbaum Foundation, and she did a great presentation
on doing pitches to funders. So definitely check
that out. But yeah, as far as the numbers go,
yeah, we're seeing a decline in donations. Part
of it has to do with inflation. it's really hard
to find data specifically to animal protection
and even harder for farm animal protection. We
usually reference the GivingUSA annual report.
So the most recent data that I have access to
is from 2023. I do know that they just released
their 2024 report, but we haven't gotten our
fingers on that yet. But as far as like 2023,
there was a decline in money towards animals
in the environment. We're kind of lumped together.
by 8 .9%. So there is a decline, we know that.
But of that 3 % of the giving pot, only 1 % really
goes towards animals. So it's hard to know how
much of that eight per night. 8 .9 % is attributed
to environment versus animals. It's nearly impossible
to say. Stray Dog Institute did conduct a renewed
state of the sector report that was just published,
which I'm really excited about. I think it shows
that there's between 200 and 250 million in funding.
So the 2021 report was 200 million, so it really
hasn't increased that much, which is not great.
But compared to the giving sector in total, there
was a 3 .4 % decline compared to 2021. So that's
a loss of quite a few billions. So yeah, we're
all struggling. If your fundraising is struggling,
then your entire organization and its impact,
its reach will be reduced. That's the hard reality.
And that also highlights the importance of fundraising,
of the work we're doing. OK, so I guess this
ties well with my next question, which is how
much power do we have as fundraisers in the organization?
more than that, how much power do funders have
over organizations? Alice? Yeah, that's a really
good question. I mean, I think every organization
will have a different answer on this because
I know like when it comes to balance, like We
do not change our strategy based on a funding
opportunity. We really have our vision for a
reason. And we are very nimble as a smaller organization
when things do change. For example, the administration.
And we realized that it wasn't going to be impactful
to continue doubling down on our USDA component
of our focus on fiber initiative. So we changed
our strategy. That wasn't thunder directed though.
And while we will of course take feedback, we
won't change our strategy based on. what they
say. As for working within the confines of the
organization, I work really closely with our
executive director. I mean, once more, we are
a smaller organization, so I am the sole development
person. And so I talk to her most days, whether
it's just a Slack message or otherwise, but we
work very closely and she keeps me very much
in the loop because we can't do our jobs without
each other and in turn the program's teams. Yeah,
that's a sign of good health, organizational
health. Liz? Yeah, I mean, I'll just ditto exactly
what Alice said. I think I always see like my
role as fundraising, like I'm one person in a
12 person team. And yes, I'm the only one who
has philanthropy in their title, but everyone
in our organization is a fundraiser of sorts.
They're going to hate me for saying this, so
I apologize in advance. But they're representatives
of our organization, and every conversation that
they have with an advocate that helps them, that
then can be used for our case for support of,
oh, yes, we helped this organization. And so
it really is like a team effort. And my role
is only made easier by the incredible work that
the rest of our team does. can say like without
a doubt that we would be completely lost and
like without the incredible team that we have
like all of analytics success is because of every
single person in our organization and our leadership
is just spectacular. While it's like a one -person
development team, Brooke who is our executive
director is there alongside me every step of
the way and we're just very very lucky. to have
this strong team that we have. One thing that
I'll also mention is we will create a fundraising
plan every single year that changes based on
what our previous year's revenue is. So this
allows us to look at all of our tactics. Like,
what are we doing with individual donors? What
are we doing with grants? Maybe one year it was
really, really fruitful for grants, but we always
want to be diversifying our revenue stream. So
just because one year we had a really great year
with a bit grants doesn't mean that we're going
to all of a sudden jump ship and ignore our individual
donors. So kind of figuring out which areas are
most promising, what are maybe new possibilities
that we haven't looked into before. I remember
the first time that I met Alice, I'm pretty sure
I was asking her like, what do you do with your
Bequest program? Because we don't really have
one. So how can we grow this? So definitely also
like leaning into your fellow fundraisers and
figuring out what's going well for them and not
being afraid to ask stupid questions. That's
like the number one thing I've learned is just
lean into your ignorance of what you don't know
and always be willing to just learn new new things
because you will that's I think how fundraising
plans and how your development and your revenue
can grow is by like constantly learning and constantly
trying to like figure out that missing piece
and the one way that I describe fundraising to
a lot of like my friends and family I'm like
just imagine me in like a full velcro suit and
I'm just like throwing myself at the wall and
like one arm is like has 12 velcro strips strips
because I know all of the data but then this
one I have no idea what I'm doing so we're just
gonna see where I land um and it's a lot of trial
and error um because of the lack of data in our
area for fundraising. Yeah, I know that our organization
has like a fail fast mentality and I love it
because Like it allows us to try things and if
it doesn't work. It's not like an issue You know,
for example my first year at balance I worked
on a wellness challenge that was a month -long
challenge, and I wanted it to be really, really
inclusive. So it was everything from make a plant
-based meal, to take a walk, to swimming laps,
so that everyone could do something. And it was
a lot of work to bring in just a few thousand
dollars and so like taking into consideration
like how much work is it going to be could I
be doing something else because if I can put
in a grant application that is worth like you
know five or six figures and be successful versus
taking a whole month to raise three four five
grand which one am I going to be going to do
the next year because you know it's it's really
working smarter. and hard, but not harder, and
focusing on the lower hanging fruit. We didn't
have a comms person. How are we going to have
a strong individual giving team when we didn't
have people who knew who we were? So now we do,
and Chris is great, and we're very lucky. Oh
my god, Alice, I love that you mentioned that
because in my head I'm just thinking like, we
did the exact, or I did the exact same thing
when I first came into Faunalytics. I was like,
hey, like, I was so ready, so amped, and I was
like, we're gonna do this donor -centered event,
we're gonna call it Data Days of Summer, it's
gonna be like a fundraising online event, it's
gonna be so great, it's gonna be a benefit. It
sucked. Like, no offense to anybody who contributed
to it, but it was just like... our donors don't
want to be thanked that way. And it took me doing
it to realize, okay, this is not the right strategy.
And so now we have Fauna Connections, which is
a research symposium, and that is so much more
aligned with Faunalytics mission. And we don't
need to be like thanking our donors, they come
to it and they see the good work that we're doing.
And that's how they get their appreciation. So
I just absolutely love Alice that you shared,
like failing fast, because yeah, totally did
the exact same thing when I started. Oh, yeah.
And just because you can put on an event doesn't
mean you should. Yes. Yeah. Well, this is a great
moment to talk about stress, the stress that
this job brings. I don't know if you can relate,
but I often think of myself as the only one in
the organization who's actually bringing money
in. And so I have to justify my salary. And I'm
always thinking about how much of a good fundraiser
I am in terms of how much of a good investment
I am for my organization. So what do you make
of that pressure to be productive, to bring that
money, to keep your organization basically alive?
I've been in that position before. Luckily, when
I came to Faunalytics, I felt like I was just
like walking into like Willy Wonka's Chocolate
Factory. I was like, wait, you have all of these
amazing things in place? Like what? They like,
I was just like, this, this is amazing. I think
it really starts with leadership honestly like
I hate using this like term like culture of an
organization because it's been misused and like
put against employees so often it's like oh this
is our culture blah blah blah but truly like
I think if you have good leadership that's willing
to um kind of like practice what they preach
and like take their vacation time off and like
set good boundaries and like allow sick days
to be used for mental health. Like when I came
into Faunalytics, it was like a no -brainer.
It was like your sick days can be used for mental
health if you want to just take like a self -care
day with your sick day like that it is for you
to use. And to me that was like that just took
off so much pressure of like worrying like oh
my gosh like if I'm sick if this like grant deadline
comes up it's like very much a collaborative
work environment and I think I would like push
back a little and say like the onus is really
on the organization to set up those things to
ensure that employees can thrive. Employees have
a responsibility to show up. work every day and
to put their best foot forward and to do the
best work that they can but that's only possible
when there are structures in place that allow
people to thrive and not feel like they are dying
every time they come to work and let they're
just like a number or a machine because we're
not and we work in an area where arguably we
are facing a lot of really like traumatizing
content sometimes like I can't tell you how many
times like I scroll through like graphic imagery
of animals um and it's like just having a good
organization and good leadership that's willing
to back you up really makes a difference. So
I would say like, from my conversations with
other fundraisers, there are great organizations
out there. So if you're being treated in a way
that makes you feel like a machine, find another
job because you will be appreciated. There are
people that will appreciate you. Oh my God, a
hundred percent. I am like so passionate about
culture actually and about organizational health.
Because, you know, echoing what you're saying,
Liz, like if you do not have really kind, compassionate
and effective leaders at the top who work, you
know, work from like a place of once more compassion,
like there doesn't need to be any ego. Audrey
is the best leader. She is so highly competent.
She could do so many of our jobs. And she trusts
us so much. She gives us so much autonomy. She's
there as a person to brainstorm solutions when
needed. I mean, I live in LA. So fortunately,
we weren't. as impacted as some but like we temporarily
left our homes during the fires and during that
time we had a huge grant deadline and Audrey
really stepped in. It's like having a compassionate
and effective leader is amazing and hiring the
right people though that's like the second step.
I mean Not to go off on too much of a tangent,
but our hiring process, I've never been a part
of an organization that does it quite this way.
And so every time someone new comes on board,
there's this infusion of really good energy.
And I've started putting in our grant applications
how we have 100 % retention. People don't leave.
And I think that speaks volumes. And yes, if
you're not being taken care of and treated as
a human first, leave, find another place, because
there are great organizations that have wonderful
people at every level. And everyone who's doing
this type of work deserves that. And I can't
remember the original question, but I do really,
really. It's a big issue for me to make sure
that really good people are taken care of. Yeah,
I also recall you saying something about, like,
making sure that you're, like, getting that grant
that, like, justifies, like, your worth. Yeah.
I will mention Phonelytics has a study that looks
at compensation in the farmed animal advocacy
sector. So we surveyed... a bunch of organizations,
the number 27 organizations I think, and we're
able to pull salary groups across all participating
organizations. So this is publicly available
data. So if you want to be able to request a
raise to make sure you're being fairly compensated,
we have this information for you. And not you
specifically. Anybody who's listening is what
I'm trying to allude to. No, no. I think that's
great. Because also, if people are being compensated
and they have the appropriate benefits to have
a work -life balance, then they stay. If people
stay, they have all the institutional knowledge.
If they have the institutional knowledge, they'll
be able to do the work faster and better than
bringing on someone new, not saying that there
aren't any job seekers that really would do great,
because I know a few of them. Yeah, take care
of the people. And yeah, I feel very lucky because
I don't feel like I'm in a position where I have
to prove my worth. And I think that is indicative
of the organization that I'm at, because it really
is like a human first mentality. And also like,
and this hasn't always been the case in places
that I have worked, we have like such sustainable
growth strategy and such like financial responsibility
that if like, if we had a really bad fundraising
year this year, no one's going to lose their
jobs. And having that safety net because of leadership
and our board, that means that I can sleep at
night if there's like an emergency going on in
my own life. Not to say that I want any more
fires in Los Angeles. Come on people. Those are
incredibly, um, great points to note and memorize.
I would add, yes, it is important to get great
compensation, but be careful. There are jobs
with great salary offers, but the culture is
not that good, and you really need to prioritize
the culture versus the salary. you won't win
with you know, just the salary. You only have
one body and one mind. Yeah, you can always make
more money later or from you know, another better
offer elsewhere. But yeah, so be careful about
the also, I'm such a better fundraiser, getting
to like fundraise for an organization that I
believe in where I truly am proud of all of my
coworkers and what they do. I am so impressed
by each and every one of them. And I can't do
their jobs. They can't do my job. I can't do
their job, truly. More so if they don't want
to do my job. They could probably do it. But
at the end of the day, if you are working for
a mission that you believe in, and in an organization
that does have healthy culture, fundraising is
so much easier. Yeah. Okay, let me ask something
else. This time related to impact. And I've been
playing with this idea that often the focus in
our movement is to convert people to a vegan
lifestyle or a healthy fiber -rich lifestyle,
whatever terms we use. But there are people who
just won't do it for a number of reasons, many
of them being valid reasons. If you're struggling
with an eating disorder, I don't think you should
be the target of people wanting you to become
vegan. Um, in any case, so what about alternatives
to advance the movement? And of course, for me,
the answer to that is donations. Uh, if you cannot,
uh, become vegan, um, you can still become a
donor for the cause and you're going to still,
you know, make a huge impact with your gift.
What do you make of that idea? I think that's
a really interesting idea. I feel like I've used
it as an argument in a very different subject
matter, where I've suggested to non -vegan business
owners that they have a vegan business. I'm like,
OK, if you don't want it, but if your business
is vegan, you're still doing wonderful good in
this world. And I love the utopian vision of
everyone being vegan. That would be amazing.
My husband's not vegan. We are going to have
vegan babies one day, but he's not vegan and
maybe he'll never go vegan. And, you know, honestly,
sometimes he walks in a room and he's better
equipped to get someone to try a vegan product
because he's not vegan and they don't want to
listen to the vegan. Yeah, this world is complex
beyond our grasp. And yeah, I definitely understand
the struggle of living with people who are not
vegan. Liz? Yeah, gosh, all this makes me think
up is I like in my head is stuck as when I went
to the Animal and Vegan Advocacy Summit, gosh,
this was like three years ago now. I think it
was like the first year or something. Steven
from Connect for Animals did a lightning presentation
on social contagion theory. And that has just
really stuck with me. It's like the idea that,
you know, sometimes we're in this silo, this
like tunnel vision of veganism right because
everybody around us is vegan like our co -workers
are the people in our movement are but there's
an entire world where people really like do not
vibe with us um and i have just kept this in
my mind as i moved out to the rural countryside
and it's like nobody here is there's like no
restaurants with vegan options and so Am I gonna
turn any of those people away from donating to
my sanctuary? Absolutely not. That would be ludicrous
because we know that vegans aren't the majority
of the population. We're already dealing with
such a small pot of money. Do we really want
to restrict ourselves more? And I wouldn't even
say it's about like morals, like only accepting
money from vegans because that's not gonna advance
our mission. And so like, as long as you have
a proper, I would say like gift acceptance policy,
I would definitely not include not including
donations from from non -vegans or like vegetarians
or flexitarians or reducitarians or omnivores
like there's just so much good we can do and
everybody is at a different step in their journey.
If people didn't take my money before I went
vegan like that would be really awful because
that would really not be good for them. I just,
yeah, I think we just have to meet people where
they are and kind of reach out to them with these
steps. It really, it's been proven to work. Different
strokes for different folks, right? Totally.
And I think, you know, our donor base and our
supporters and even our participants are not
necessarily vegan or plant based, but they want
healthier options and those just once more so
happened to be plants and so by like for us we
focus on the nutrient interventions as it's something
that people don't argue against you know we're
showing them the evidence based science and we're
saying like you know we need to focus on low
cholesterol and lower saturated fats and lower
sodium and this that and the other thing and
this is how you do it and we provide the solutions
for that and Children are consuming more plants.
It's a win -win for everyone. I mean, even a
lot of our work on the policy front in the last
few years has been working in response to upon
request legislature that's like legislation that
passed in Illinois where there was a lot of that
passed that said if a student requests a plant
-based school lunch that the school is required
to provide it. And so we co -founded the Plant
-Based School Lunch Collaborative and More Plants
on Plates Illinois, where we worked with a philanthropy
organization and a marketing firm to get the
word out and to make the resources easily accessible
so that students could request plant -based school
lunches through the programs and the infrastructure
that was already in place. Were all those people
vegan? Probably not. And so we need to work together.
I mean, my non -vegan friends go to vegan restaurants
all the time. They buy Miyoko's butter. They
get the plant -based meat alternatives. They
drink oat milk and soy milk, you know, baby steps.
Why do you think people don't consider fundraising
as a valid form or more popular form of activism?
Like, people go and protest and go on, you know,
to all sorts of things in the name of animals.
But fundraising is always at the bottom of the
list, if not, you know, not even on the list.
So why aren't people thinking about fundraising
as a valid way to do activism? I think people
are afraid to ask for help in general. Like I
just feel like that's applicable across like
just humanity. It's like the idea of being vulnerable
and saying like I need you for something. But
like I mentioned before, I don't really see it
as asking. I see it as like a collaboration,
a connection, a relationship. And so we don't
really take that approach. But I can definitely
see like people just not feeling comfortable
asking. We've seen that like peer -to -peer giving
is a really big struggle for our organization.
trying to convince people to fundraise on behalf
of our organization, and I think it's just because
people are uncomfortable having to make that
ask. There's so much going on in the world that
it can feel really privileged to say, like, will
you donate to animals? And so, I mean, I don't
think everybody has to, is the thing, right?
It's, I wish everybody did, but I think people
should really focus on what they're most passionate
about. And then that will show through your activism.
So if you are like a very much on the grounds
person and you want to protest your heart's content,
do that, do it effectively. Read our research
on what the most effective ways are. But as long
as you're putting your all into everything and
trying to make sure that you're, you know, doing
it with the most effective strategies, tactics.
I don't think that everybody should have to fundraise
if they don't want to. I really like that. I
really like that approach, Liz. I think also
it's like giving within your means and I think
the last number of years have just been collectively
really hard. You know, we've survived a global
pandemic. There's numerous political issues across
numerous countries going on. There there is just
like so much happening that and the news cycle
just goes so fast now So I think there's probably
like a collective compassion fatigue as well
And so people are just tuning out there's so
much like our inboxes are flooded every single
day and so a lot of people are just our capacity
and you know and that has like Changed our approach
even to giving Tuesday where you know we we limit
the amount of emails not we're not you know we
are participating we are sending out emails but
we're not going to be sending out eight or ten
emails. People are getting emails from everyone.
You know we we we I think we just really like
focus on the human human first component more
than anything else and we are all on the receiving
end of that. And yeah, I agree. We all have our
own special gifts and talents and interests and
flavors. And if that is protesting, if that is
working in the movement, you are fundraising.
You are giving. You are donating by giving your
time, volunteering. You know, direct rescue,
there's so many different things that are so
valid. And if you can give on top of that, if
you have the capacity, fantastic. Should you
donate and go hungry? No. Last question. Sanctuaries.
It feels like sanctuaries are just struggling
for money. um as someone you know struggling
for air and drawing like this is the image i
get every time i come across you know different
sanctuaries um what do you make of that why are
sanctuaries the ugly duck of the movement and
not getting much love from funders what's happening
here oh boy so i don't know if you knew this
about me but i have a sanctuary a chicken microsanctuary.
So I have this really unique experience of working
for both what I would say is like an international
organization. We conduct research that reaches
and is translated into many languages across
the world. And then I have a very micro chicken
sanctuary with 22 rescue chickens. So I see like
two completely opposite, not opposites, but they
mesh well, sides of the movement. I think in
my opinion, the sanctuaries hardest thing to
overcome is legitimacy in the movement. I think
there isn't really a good network right now of
sanctuaries and it's something that I've been
working very hard on trying to help fix. You'll
see things like sanctuary meetups at the Animal
and Vegan Advocacy Summit. You'll see things
like the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries,
GFAS, which does accreditation, but isn't always
realistic for all sanctuaries. And there isn't
really a collective or a network where all the
sanctuaries gather together to share resources
or data or research. Like I mentioned at the
beginning of the podcast, Fauna Lake did do a
study with farm sanctuary, but that was in 2021.
So again, it's getting older now. Personally,
I do think that sanctuaries are very effective,
not just because I have one, but because I've
taken time to look through the research and data
that shows that positive solution -focused messaging
is more effective than graphic imageries. Sanctuaries
can... kind of bypass this like moral disengagement
because they're not triggering guilt they're
like creating a connection they're like fostering
empathy and I think like sanctuaries do a really
good job at shifting social norms I think the
biggest issue is that sanctuaries don't see that
they're doing this they're so focused on the
individual animals that they're rescuing that
they have a hard time because of capacity because
they're so overburdened a lot of them are just
volunteer run like ours is myself and my partner,
we don't take a dime from it. All of our team
is volunteer. It's all stuff that we just do.
But yeah, I think that they have a really, really
hard time being able to like take a step back
from that animal care, having the capacity to
do so and say like, okay, well, how are we influencing
people online? How are we influencing people
who come for tours? And so my hope is that over
the next few years that there'll be more collaboration.
And this will be something that we'll look at
more. That is so tender and from the heart. I
mean, it's so interesting because I feel like
this has been a shift even just in the time that
I've been part of the movement. And I feel like
Since people have been able to accumulate some
of this data, they've kind of shifted away from
funding sanctuaries in many ways. And I totally
understand wanting to spare as many animals as
possible. I think that is a very valid approach.
and at the same time like each animal at a sanctuary
has the ability to be an ambassador for their
species and honestly deserves to have a life
that feels and you know feels good and make sure
that they're well taken care of and well fed
and nurtured and loved and you know there's there's
so much goodness that can come from that too
it really is a both and and so that's why i you
know i think focusing on there's the donor that's
going to be motivated by the sanctuary experience
and story and what it means in this, in this
space. And then there's going to be the folks
that, you know, have a totally different psychology
and giving approach. And that is okay. But I
think there's room for both and it would be a
huge disservice to not promote sanctuaries and
the people who are running them because they
are so hard working. And I can only imagine how
the effects of inflation and the cost of living
has changed things. Because if I'm feeling it
when I'm going to the grocery store, I can only
imagine when it comes to animal feed and supplies
and supply chain issues or veterinary care. Because
if I can feel that with my dogs, how much it
costs for them, how much is it on a grander scale?
So I can see where the day to day is really hard
and really expensive. And I feel like there's
still a lot of value there. And so just finding
the right people who get to experience that,
because I mean, It really is a gift to the animals
and to the humans. Everyone. Yeah, if you're
a sanctuary owner like Liz, take note of Alice
and Liz answers because you have your case of
support right there. I could go on with questions.
There is so much to cover with fundraising. By
the way, do we all have like birds? birds creatures
artwork on our background I'm trying to see like
what my back I'm trying to remember what my background
I think it's like fruit coffee and like butterflies
and flowers rooster somewhere wait yeah there's
a little chicken yeah I went for this one okay
so did you want to add something before I stop
the recording Yeah, I mean, so I would just say
like, for any fundraisers that are listening
to this, yeah, join our Hive fundraising community
calls for any donors who are listening to this.
consider donating to politics and balanced, of
course. And then also just if you're an advocate
who's just like curious about fundraising, Animal
Advocacy Careers is absolutely amazing and it
has a great course where you can learn more about
fundraising. You can always reach out to me.
I'll provide my email so people can connect with
us. And then, yeah, if anybody is just listening
to this just for general I was going to say shits
and giggles, you might have to cut that out.
But if they're just listening for fun, then feel
free to use Phonelytics office hours anytime
you need any advocacy help. Thank you, Liz. Alice?
I love that. I mean, let's see. I'm trying to
think. Honestly, I think just having these types
of conversations more regularly, I think it really,
one, it provides an opportunity for connection
and collaboration. I get a lot more energy when
I'm talking to really wonderful people about
the good work that they're doing. is inspiring.
And I am very grateful for the in -person opportunities
that we do have allotted to us, whether it's
at Eva, Reducetarian. I'm really excited to go
to Reducetarian in October. I'm really excited
to go to Clem. Yes, exactly. I love conferences.
It is weird. I lose my voice, my throat hurts,
and I'm happy. And I'm so drained at the end
of it, but I can't sleep. And then, you know,
I think like, We just need to have more human
time talking with each other, with our fellow
organizations, with funders, and continue to
have these conversations. And yes, donate to
Phonelytics, donate to Balanced. that the organizations
that you give to see who's working together behind
the scenes. One thing I will add, too, I think
we were touching on it earlier on about the metrics
that organizations have been providing. And one
thing that we did, I feel like this is not for
a tail end of a conversation, but one thing that
we did that I thought was really great is during
the pandemic when data was really hard to produce
or we said that we were transparent and we said,
you know what, we can't tell you the numbers
right now, because we have no idea how to measure
them at this juncture. But once we figure that
out, we'll keep you in the loop. So being honest,
being transparent, maintaining relationships,
and we just got to continue to cheerlead for
each other. I love it. Liz, Alice, Phenoletics
and Balance are really lucky to have you. You
are, of course, you're experts and truly true
professionals. So yeah, really lucky to have
you. And thank you. Thank you so much for having
answered my questions and shared your insights
and knowledge with everyone. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.