Welcome to The Vegan Report, I'm Ryan and today
we're celebrating a powerful victory by Madeleine
Krasno, founder of Justify, against her alma
mater, the University of Wisconsin -Madison.
The university censored her online denunciation
of the cruel animal testing conducted in its
labs, but Madeleine fought back and won. She
shared with me shocking new details about how
the university monitored her social media and
even planned to infiltrate an animal rights lecture
by creating fake accounts. We also discussed
Brian Coburger, the Idaho killer, who surprisingly
is vegan. Plus, the launch of Madeline's new
podcast, which I'm really excited about, and
how allies of this movement can emerge from the
most unexpected places. Check out the episode
notes to connect with Justify and Madeline. Her
initiative is groundbreaking and truly deserves
your support. If you want to know more about
Madeline's inspiring journey, check out episode
51 of the podcast, Waking Up from the Nightmare
of Animal Testing. Finally, I invite you to share
this podcast with your tribe, subscribe to the
show, leave a positive review, and help grow
this podcast. Every bit of support counts. Thank
you. Maddie, welcome back to the show. Third
time here. Thank you so much for having accepted
my invitation. Thank you so much for having me
back. And you're back with some great, amazing
positive news. You've announced that about five
days ago, I think, on August 5. So let's start
with this. What is the breaking news? Well, actually,
the breaking news happened on August 1st. I think
I only let you know maybe on August 5th. I can't
remember. Time is time is confusing. But yes,
we found out that my free speech lawsuit against
the University of Wisconsin, Madison, my alma
mater, the appeal was successful in our favor.
We won. Congratulations. So how did you learn
the news? Was it an email? Was it the phone call?
Was it, I actually, um, it was, yeah, I was,
uh, I had taken my, I was with my dog at the
vet and all of a sudden I looked down at my phone
and I had like four messages from my lawyer at
the animal legal defense fund. And I hadn't opened
the messages yet, but I was like, Hmm, Caitlin's
texting me. Why is Caitlin texting me? And I
was like, oh my god, Caitlin's texting me. So
I opened the messages and it was like, we got
the ruling. We won the appeal. I'm still reading
through it, but I just wanted to let you know.
And so that was like Friday afternoon, August
1st, which, you know, it was a Friday afternoon.
So it was already like evening on the East Coast
where she is. So end of the week, which is kind
of where I got to enjoy myself, celebrate on
the weekend and then hit the ground running on
Monday with the news kind of taking over and
getting some media features. She texted you the
news. She's a millennial. Yes. And then later
I got emails and stuff, but she just wanted to
like right away be like, Hey Maddie. But that's
a generation thing. She's a millennial. Yeah,
totally. I mean, I was, I was like, literally,
this is the perfect way to get the news. Exactly.
I'm not criticizing it. Okay. So let's do a quick
recap. You know, what was this? This was an appeal.
I think the first time they won their case and
then you went on appeal and this time you won.
So what happened there? Yes. Well, what happened
there? You know, I think we could probably kind
of circle back to Okay, let's start at the beginning
here. So I start speaking out about my experience
working in an animal research lab and I'm taking
to Instagram and Facebook to do this. I am commenting
on my alma mater's Instagram and Facebook. So
again, this is the University of Wisconsin Madison
where I worked in one of their primate labs during
college. And I was basically trying to share
about my experience and also You know inform
students that this is still going on. This is
our community You all have a right to know what
is happening what this what this is doing to
the animals what it's doing to the humans who
are involved and so ultimately Madison was not
thrilled Surprisingly with these comments they
ended up censoring my account And that led to
this free speech lawsuit because the University
of Wisconsin -Madison is a publicly funded university,
which means they're getting government funding,
tax dollars, to do the work that they do, which
includes animal research. And so we have this
free speech case that we brought on and you know,
I gotta pause to explain this whole keyword testing
thing because it all ties back to that. So these
keywords censorship, this keyword censorship
that was taking place, we found out about because
after I had been censored, they uncensored me
basically. And I was allowed to comment again.
But what we're finding out is that some of my
comments would show up and some of them wouldn't.
And so what ended up happening is we learned
there was this thing called a keyword list where
any word on that list, if someone commented about
it, that comment would be invisible. It would
only be seen by the person commenting and like
the University of Wisconsin -Madison and the
public wouldn't see it. And this list was made
up almost entirely of words related to animal
research. So you can imagine that's impacting
people's ability to talk about animal research.
And when we found this out, we added this to
the lawsuit, but then we also were wondering
who else was engaging in this keyword filtering
practice. And we found out that there were other
universities that were government funded, engaging
in this practice, trying to censor language,
or sorry, discussion related to animal research.
And we also found out that the National Institutes
of Health was doing the same thing. And that
is absolutely wild because the National Institutes
of Health is the number one funder of animal
research in this country, the United States.
We ended up bringing on a second free speech
lawsuit against the National Institutes of Health
and that was me my friend Ryan Hartkoff who was
just a Madison resident who wanted to help me
with my cases and Cares about the issues of animals
and research and then PETA and so we were the
plaintiffs in that lawsuit We sued the NIH We
lost we appealed and we won so That win was one
year before I won this lawsuit against the University
of Madison. And because they're similar, you
know, we think that that is part of the whole
decision with the ruling because the case, the
cases are very similar. It's about free speech
online. How does that go for summing this up?
It's great. You basically, you basically set
your own precedent for your second lawsuit. Yeah,
yeah, even though the Madison lawsuit was actually
first, we won the NIH came after, but we won
that one first. And then, yeah, ultimately, though,
I think, yes, we we have, we're setting a precedent.
It's very exciting. It's fascinating. Okay. What
are those social media platforms? I think it
was Instagram, Facebook. Yeah, it was it was
Instagram and Facebook that I was using. So that
those are the the platforms that were included
in this lawsuit in particular or in both of these
lawsuits in particular. So they were both using
keyword filters on Instagram and on Facebook
to basically control the conversation. And when
did you notice that it was being censored? Because
you said, you know, you see your comment in the
comment section, but other people don't see it.
Right. And that's I mean, you know, all things
considered, that is wonderfully sneaky, right?
Because someone thinks then, yes, I've made a
comment, I've put my perspective out there. And,
you know, you just kind of assume, okay, like,
I did it. I think what struck me is that there
were certain times where I would comment something
and I was like, it's really weird that no one's
reacting to what I said here. You know, like,
you would just kind of expect even just like
a like, let alone like someone responding to
it. And there was nothing. And that struck me
because other times I would comment and there
would be a lot of reaction and so it was like
what's going on here and what ended up happening
is I would go to my friend Ryan who I mentioned
who ended up being a plaintiff on the NIH lawsuit
and I was like do you see my comment like what's
happening and he was like no I don't like, I
see this comment, I don't see that comment. We're
like, well, why do we see this comment and not
that comment? And so Ryan was the one who did
a FOIA request, the Freedom of Information Act
request, and found out that they were engaging
in these blocked or censored word lists. So that
is that's how we figured it out. It was really
because I was expecting a reaction that I wasn't
getting. Why? Was that filter in place, you know,
they made that decision of censoring people Was
it a way to discourage that kind of discourse
so they're thinking someone like Maddie will
come and start, you know commenting bad things
things that would hurt our reputation and If
there are no reactions to her comment, then at
some point she will stop you know, commenting,
but also we will hide her, um, you know, problematic
comments from the rest of the community. So they're
isolating you while discouraging you to continue
commenting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think
it's this idea that if we can, if we can prevent
this discourse about what is taking place here,
the animal research, which has been going on
for so many decades. I mean, the University of
Wisconsin -Madison has one of the most well -known
histories of animal research because of Harry
Harlow, the infamous primate researcher. I literally
went on to work in his lab long after he had
died. But regardless, the backbone of this university
is animal research. They will proudly discuss
it, but only from their own perspective, right?
They're not actually wanting to allow this discourse
to take place that questions it. And so the idea
on their social media accounts seem to be, well,
if we can prevent this from happening, then we
won't be attracting negative attention to this.
Because the reality is, is that A lot of the
public is not into animal research. Yeah, it's
not helping. Your comments are not helping. No.
When you announced the good news, you said those
are two victories. So there's one victory for
animal rights for the animals. What is the second
victory about? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's the
victory for the animals themselves, which Of
course i mean you know it's not like i'm i'm
getting animals out in this moment but it's a
victory in that we can advocate for them more
openly and and not get censored. But also i you
know it's a victory for people who have been
a part of this industry and deserve to be able
to talk about their experiences and feel heard
and understood. Because it's. You know, it's
it's pretty psychologically damaging to be a
part of this you know, everyone has their unique
experiences, but when you care about animals
and you're put in a situation where You are also
complicit in their harm it It hurts you, you
know, like we I'd like to think that most humans
inherently want to help someone who is suffering
help someone who is being harmed and And that's
what I went into the lab to do in the first place
Like I went in there to care for these animals
I was a caretaker and yet I'm caring for animals
whose lives don't belong to them and who ultimately
You know are going to be killed in the name of
science and and that you know cause a lot of
moral distress and it's something that needs
to be talked about because we are creating a
bunch of people this industry is creating a bunch
of people who are shutting down their empathy
shutting down their compassion being told that
their compassion is. you know a problem or not
ideal like you can have some compassion but don't
have this much you can care a little but don't
care too much because or else you become a threat
to the industry so. Being able to talk about
this is important cuz how are we gonna do better
how are we gonna actually care for humans and
create things that that help humans if we're
so busy trying to protect an industry that's.
not even coming up with what it says that it's
setting out to do. What you're saying is so right,
so much so that, you know, I can give myself
as a living example of someone who, if I did
not cross paths with you, I would never have
thought of the suffering of the researchers.
I mean, it's logical when you think about it,
when you really think about it, but it never
you know, cross my mind that this was a big problem
for them to always focused on the animals. And
I think it's partly due to, you know, all the
campaigns that we got from different animal rights
organizations, they always focus on the animals,
never mentioned the researcher or it's this cartoonish
villain character. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's I mean,
and that's It makes me, it gives me hope like
hearing you say that because it's not to say
that there aren't, I don't know, bad apples in
the industry. There's bad apples everywhere,
right? Like there's always going to be people
who unfortunately are harming other beings, whether
it's humans or non -humans and doings and maybe
just don't care maybe really truly don't but
there is definitely an assumption that has been
perpetuated that everyone who's a part of animal
research. Is bad you know like wants to harm
animals is doing this solely for money whatever
it is and again i'm not saying that there aren't
any of those people but if we assume that everyone
who's involved in this industry is that. then
we are missing a really important reason to be
moving away from this industry. This industry
is damaging people. It is telling them to shut
down their compassion and empathy, and that gets
applied elsewhere. When you learn that some lives
matter less than others, you're not like, oh,
that's just for animals. You start to apply that
to other humans. And so we need to think what
we are considering to be science, what we are
considering to be progress, what we are considering
is worth funding, you know, the ways at which
we're trying to help humans, because there's
other ways we could be helping humans, changing
their lives drastically for the better right
now, with all of this, you know, billions of
dollars that are used for animal research, and
yet we aren't. And a lot of times when when anything
does come out of, you know, animal research that
benefits humans, it's not even accessible to
most people. Right. Like you think about especially
here in the United States, think about our health
care system, having health insurance, having
access to, you know, what what is needed. So
many people don't. And so it's like, who who
are these miracle cures, even if that miracle
cure happens? Who even has access to them? Yes,
it reminds me of a Oxfam campaign where they
were denouncing social inequality and they were
posting pictures of the hands of deep sea fishermen
in Asia. And, you know, you look at their hands
and they're all wounded. There are fingers missing.
And you look at that and you think this is This
is the kind of campaign we should have adopted
with, I don't know, PETA or any big animal rights
organization to stop fishing, you know, show
the hands of the fishermen, talk about the inequality.
This will hit people hard because let's be honest,
you know, it's difficult to empathize with the
fish. Yeah, yeah. And and it's not just that.
It's like, I think I. It's like we also need
to empathize with the humans and if we don't
then what does that say about us you know like
truly and it's like. It starts to really make
me kind of question some of the animal activism
that takes place. It's like, you are out there
saying you want, you know, you want humans, the
general public to open their hearts more to these
animals, but then you at the same time are like,
I will not empathize with this person because
they worked in a research lab. I don't care what
they did. I don't care what like, you know, hard
pass. And it's like, Well, I don't know like
how are we we need to set an example we need
an empathizing with someone showing compassion
doesn't mean you agree with what they did or
didn't do It just it just means that you're you're
not out there demonizing them for their part
in a very complicated system You know, yeah,
and you don't have a choice for your mental health,
you know to to like and maybe love your fellow
men to give them the benefits of the doubt, to
respect them. If you don't do that, then how
are you going to survive just mentally? There
is a deep misentropy among many animal rights
activists. I do see that and I do think it's
damaging. Yeah, I think it's I yeah I have to
agree and I get it like I I get it like I empathize
with it because I Understand how upsetting it
is to see animals experience what they do So
I it's not that I don't understand it It's just
that I think I'm over time getting better at
holding this whole like both and whatever like
whatever that is where it's like yes and um because
I don't think yeah I don't think demonizing humans
altogether is is also going to ultimately help
animals we need to we need to realize that there
are there is good out there that can be fostered
and that can grow. And, and if we don't believe
people can change, then what are we doing in
the first place? You know, like, why bother?
But I do, I know people can change. I know people
can grow and they can do better. And that's,
that's why it's why I do the work that I do.
That's, it's part of what, what led to justify
this, this organization that is at its core,
you know, Seize the good in in the people who
were a part of this industry or are a part of
this industry and have been misled by it. Yeah,
that's a great point. I know someone she was
a lobbyist for the turkey industry, I think.
And, and now she's vegan and the sanctuary owner
and one hell of an activist. So yes, believe
in change, believe that even the thing, you know,
the people you think are monsters can, you know,
become angels and your friends and allies in
this fight. Let me ask you this. Do you feel
like you're part of a change, a wind change in
history right now? Because I feel like animal
testing is at the end of its rope with the recent
announcement of the NIH and different levels
of government that they are going to let go of
this practice more and more, if not ban it completely
for certain animals. And now I see you winning
in court against those big you know, industries,
I feel like this is like an important chapter
of history regarding animal rights. And you're
one of those characters in that, you know, book
written about it. So yeah, do you feel that?
Do you feel like you're part of this momentum
around this issue? For sure. I mean, it's, it's,
it feels a little surreal to have gone from you
know, suing the National Institutes of Health
for not allowing us to talk about what is happening,
what they are funding in terms of animal research,
to the NIH putting on this like four -hour live
stream about how they're going to be prioritizing
human -relevant non -animal research. Like that,
I mean, what? You know, like that's a... that's
a turnaround. You know and at the same time like
I'm cautiously optimistic. I think that there's
a lot of good taking place and I also know that
there is a lot of suffering still happening and
so it's you know. There there's there are things
to celebrate and also we need to keep up the
momentum and hold the NIH and you know these
other the powers that be accountable and say
like we expect this to continue we expect you
to stick to your word we want to start to see
animal research phased out we wanna see these
human relevant. you know, methods truly prioritized.
So yeah, I think there's a lot happening in the
animal research space. I mean, I've had like
five people over the course of the last, I mean,
the last year really contact me about different
documentaries taking place, focusing on animal
research. And that's so interesting to me, because
for a while it felt like No one's talking about
animal research anymore. It's like we've almost
sort of like kind of decided that it's, we can't
fight it somehow. And now there's this kind of
renewed momentum and I love to see it and I am
excited about it. And I'm also overwhelmed by
the suffering that's still happening. So it's,
you know, yes and. But I do think if you had
to choose a field in animal rights where you'll
feel more optimistic at the end of the day than
pessimistic, then it would be animal experiments.
And tying it back to our last conversation about
people changing or having change come from unexpected
people. I listened to an interview with the NIH
secretary or something, the guy who is responsible
for, you know, stopping those animal test experiments.
And he's not, you know, the animal rights type.
First of all, he's not even vegan. Then, you
know, he's like, very Christian and, you know,
very conservative in his way and very, it's not,
you know, the person you would picture being
an ally in your cause. Yet, here we are. Yet,
here we are. Well, and I think it shows the power
to, you know, to actually thinking about an issue
holistically, because You know animal research
it's it's kind of the original animal rights
issue right like this is sort of like the first
issue that kind of brought about an animal rights
movement. And yet you know for so long there
wasn't that much progress taking place and even
so I feel like we could have had more been you
know seeing more progress but I think the issue
is that. You know, I still told this like very
regularly. I've had people come to Justify's
page and literally say, you should be focusing
on the animals. Like, why are you focusing on
the humans? Like, this is about the animals.
And first of all, I am always focusing on the
animals. My mind is always on the animals. Just
because I care about humans doesn't mean that
I'm not thinking about. Animals, you know, like
it's like I can I can care about them all my
empathy isn't limited But also it's like sometimes
the best work we can do for animals is By taking
these issues and looking at them in ways that
appeal more to the broader public It's just the
unfortunate reality is that not everyone cares
enough About animals and research even if we're
talking about like the dogs and the monkeys the
species that people you know relate to the most
Because when they hear something like we'll sign
like this saves our lives like this is so important
You know, it's what who would you save this child
or or or this mouse, you know, like they're gonna
automatically gravitate towards defending the
science and We need to be able to come at this
issue in a multitude of ways, not just by saying,
you know, look at Beagle number, you know, one,
two, three, this is what they've gone through
because that is, that's just not going to hit
home for everyone. And also it's just, it's not
the full picture. We can't get at an interest
in an industry that is this powerful by ignoring
the way it funnels young impressionable people
into it. and then strips them of their empathy.
That's, that's powerful. And it's so weird, because
not only your, you care about animals, but you're
demonstrating that everyone cares about animals,
including those who cause suffering to those
animals, by, you know, highlighting their suffering
their psychological suffering of those researchers,
you're showing that they care, that everyone
cares. And you're, you know, turning our attention
to the industry to the incentives to, you know,
the real stuff that is making us do those things
that is feeding that abuse. So, yeah, very powerful.
And the other thing is, and that's a bit of a
sensitive issue, but recently there was that
murder. He's a vegan, by the way, which is not
important, but somehow always comes out. Always
comes out. I've been following this case because
he's a vegan and I wanted to see if the bad publicity
around it, how it would unfold. Yes. What's his
name? Brian Coburger. Yeah, Coburger. Brian Coburger.
So I was looking at that case, following that
case, Brian Coburger is a vegan and The families
of the victims. Oh, Brian Coburger. Brian. Yes.
Yes. Okay. I actually thought you were talking
about a completely different case like some animal
act that I had heard of. Okay. I'm on. Yes. I
know what you're talking about now. Yeah. Everyone
in the space of true crime. Yeah. The Idaho killings.
Yeah. Yes. Okay. So this guy, I was listening
to the families and They were, you know, saying
we wanted some closure. We wanted some explanation
from him. And we also wanted, um, details about
the last days of the victims, um, or the last
moments I should say, um, before they, they,
they died. And, you know, for someone, you know,
outside, um, of this, you know, the thought of
having details about that feels morbid. But you
see that even, you know, in war crimes or things
of the sort. And I think, you know, I want to
hear the same from those researchers. I want
to hear about the last moments of those creatures
that were in those labs. Because, you know, they
are the last witness of their last living moments.
and sometimes of their entire lives. And if those
people, you know, if we put distance between
us and those researchers, then we've, we've just,
you know, given away the possibility to learn
about those important stories about all of those
living beings that went through those places.
And so we need them, we need to tell the stories
of, you know, the mice, the uh monkeys and all
the other creatures that that uh found their
way there yeah yeah no i mean i i think there's
there's something about knowledge right like
knowing understanding um and i think that plays
a really interesting role too in in the fields
of science right because we use that to justify
a lot of what we do And yet we control the knowledge
that is shared, right? Because we're not sharing
that knowledge. We're not sharing, like, these
intimate moments of what these animals are going
through. But we're saying, oh, we're gonna do
this study so that we can find this one thing
out, and that might lead to this, and this is
why we're justifying this, because it's all about
knowing, right? So it's interesting to look at
You know what what we justify and and how how
knowledge is sort of What is the word that I'm
looking for like? weaponized I Mean because now
in that case with with Brian this this killer.
It's like he's He's keeping that to himself.
He is weaponizing his knowledge about what happened.
And yeah, it's just, I mean, I haven't thought
a whole lot about this other than just how completely
gruesome and senseless the whole thing is. Ooh,
sorry. And yeah, this is just like me like now.
pouring out thoughts. Is this what a podcast
is for? I think it's interesting to this concept
of being vegan and committing such senseless
acts because I obviously do not know this individual.
I do not know what was going through his head.
But I think that A lot of people have this tendency
and I think this is like throughout like just
animal rights activists in general we view animals
as innocent. What we don't view humans as innocent
right like we're we're quicker to say well what
was she wearing or what was you know what did
they do that one time or what did they say and
so it's like. There's a problem there, right?
There's a problem with saying like you deserve
innocence, but you don't and what this innocence
means for them. And I guess I'm just yeah, I'm
sitting with like this question of what, you
know, is it because I think wasn't there a dog
in this situation that was unharmed? Yeah, and
I just I it makes me wonder if you know, that's
part of it, the presumed innocence of this animal,
but not of these these students who deserve to
be alive and here with us today. Yes, not entirely
sure if any of that made sense. But it Yes, it
made sense. Eight consciousness. Well, that's
what this podcast is for, you know, advancing
the conversation. So bringing new thoughts and
ideas and This concept of innocence, you know,
it also reminds me of the commission for The
amnesty or forgiveness the big commission that
was of reconciliation I think that was created
after the apartheid regime in South Africa And
they invited perpetrators of Racist crimes to
go and confess their crimes in exchange of innocence,
you know of a Innocence deal with the justice
system Because it was more important to share
those stories to put light on those stories to
give closure to the victims of you know those
racist crimes then to Persecute the the the culprits
and to send them in prison. Yeah, that's fascinating.
Also, I need to read up on I did not know about
that. Yeah. Yeah. One more reason to admire Nelson
Mandela. Yeah. If there aren't enough. And also,
I just realized another morbid detail. One of
his victims was called Maddie, by the way, and
she was vegan. Sorry about that. Yeah, I remember
when this all unfolded and it's just horrific.
It's just senseless. And yeah, I don't know that
I have anything really I don't know, insightful
to say other than that. It's unforgivable. Let
me go back to your case. I wanted to ask... It's
interesting. I mean, I think what's interesting
about the whole thing is not like this case or
this in particular, but just in general is like
what I... What I hold as difficult and what I
know that people in general hold as difficult
is like, when is something like basically senseless
and unreavable? And when, when is that not the
case? Because I know, I'm sure there's people
listening who are like, why would you say that
like what these researchers are doing to whatever
dogs is somehow different? And there's some people
who would say, absolutely, it's different. And
then there's some who would say, I don't understand
why there would be an ounce of empathy here.
And that's where I think we have to look at these
bigger systems at play and what has created this
field of animal research and what is acceptable.
In the name of science and and all of the gears
that are in place to keep it kind of going and
ultimately putting people in this position of
Yeah, what you're doing is is gonna save lives.
So this is of course, okay So again stream of
consciousness, but like I'm just aware that there
there's going to be different reactions to this.
Like, why am I saying absolutely write him off?
Like, I'm writing him off. I was not gonna like
I am not empathizing with him. It's possible
that like in his childhood, I don't know nothing
about his childhood, but it's possible that like,
he went through things and experienced abuse,
and I can feel empathy for the child. But I do
not feel empathy for the killer and who he has
become. Yes, definitely. And you know if we have
reason to believe he is a danger to society let's
put him in prison not out of spite not out of
you know like out of protection of exactly let's
be cold -headed about this right um yeah um what
was the other thing you said and i wanted to
comment on oh what do you make then of the tactics
adopted by the alf of you know calling researchers
um threatening them with uh you know murder or
uh threatening their families um just intimidation
uh tactics from alf uh activists i was like i'm
gonna talk and then i was like i'm not gonna
talk you know like i My personal, my personal
feelings are that I don't think it's probably
the most productive way to invoke change. I don't
think it's fair to like threaten harm, especially
against someone's family. Because of this, again,
I look at the animal industry the animal industry,
the animal research industry as this powerful
entity that's just not as simple as this one
individual, you know, participating in or, you
know, doing this one study. And I'm not just,
you know, don't get me wrong, like, there are
researchers where I'm just like, Like, I would
just, I don't know, myself, be like, yeah, I'm
writing them off. Like, I'm assuming they're
not gonna change. But that doesn't mean that
I'm gonna go and threaten their lives, or it
might mean that I write to the institution where
they are and I say, you know, this is egregious
what is taking place. It is wrong. This should
not be happening. Like, I don't agree with their
work, blah, blah, blah. But that's not my MO
to threaten harm. I don't know. I think we live
in a very complicated world and there's a lot
happening that's causing a lot of suffering and
so I understand why people kind of reach this
point of Should I throw this back? You know,
like throw that harm back and and so I get it
It's me like, you know, I empathize with it,
right? but do I think it's like The right thing
to be doing I don't definitely not for me. Definitely
not for how I see change taking place because
I know too that You know, you might be going
after this one researcher But that researcher
is gonna go to the whole rest of their lab and
say what's going on and the rest of the lab is
gonna go Oh, wow, these animal rights activists
are crazy. That's that's totally right if I was
starting to question things they This is clearly
the side I should be on right like it sort of.
Unblurs the lines when I think the lines need
to be blurred because it's gonna help people
who are already questioning things or all are
already uncomfortable with what's taking place
even though they're a part of it it's gonna push
them farther away from us. So yeah, there's again,
there's my stream of consciousness on this I
think it's I think it's complicated but it's
definitely not not the way I do things and not
the way I think is gonna bring more of the inside
insiders To a place where they feel like they
can seek Community and they can speak out about
you know, what's happening? I don't know if I
remember that well. I don't know if they called
researchers to threaten their families, but in
any case, if you're being threatened with your
life, you'll think about your family. You'll
think that they're not safe. So, yeah. And, you
know, I personally, I go back to my faith, you
know, if I look at, you know, Buddhism, you fight
harm with non -harm. you know, that's the universal
rule. And I think there is a Christian version
of that, of, you know, you present the other
cheek, what was the expression in any case. So
yeah, I think there is truth and power in that,
in fighting, you know, hate with love and empathy
and kindness and all of those good wholesome
things. Yeah. i mean i know i don't know i know
that these days there's like there's question
about you know like when people are being literally
ripped from their homes and sent away from the
only home they've ever known you know to to a
another country like i understand that people
are not gonna just like stand there and go like
hi please stop like they're gonna they're gonna
get physical right and i i respect that but that's
why i think that it's like we just simply can't
apply one thing like one we can't assume everything
is the same that handling one issue this way
because it worked here is it's gonna work there
or it makes sense here and that's where i like
over time have been kind of trying to make sense
of this is that in this case it might make sense
but in this case i don't think it does And that's
okay, and maybe I'm wrong. I'm just kind of going
by what I've learned and what I understand of
this industry, which is also why I'm not going
to speak to things that I know less of, if that
makes sense. It makes sense, which brings me
to discuss social media. I really, I really love
discussing social media. I really wanted to have
your opinion on that because I am in a paranoia
phase. I really feel like, um, I had the conversation
about media bias recently and I really, I really
feel like if, um, what happened to you can happen.
And if this big industry of animal experimentation,
animal agriculture, whatever, has funding for
social media managers, PR firms and so on, what
stops them from trolling or infiltrating this
movement just to derail it, just to make us mad
or um, create and fighting or, um, yeah. Yeah.
So what do you think of that? Am I being inspirational?
Am I paranoid? I get the tinfoil hat. Like, yeah.
Um, it's funny because it's like, I, during the
discovery phase of my lawsuit, um, the University
of Wisconsin -Madison admitted to basically monitoring
my account, but also discussing like creating
fake profiles to attend presentations of mine.
Wow. Yeah, which again, my response is always
like, you're more than welcome. I don't say anything,
you know, in presentations online that I think
that I wouldn't say, you know, with Wisconsin
representatives in front of me, right? Like I'm
so it's like, you're welcome. Attend the presentation.
You don't have to hide. I mean, maybe if you're
hiding, it's because you're actually afraid to
be recognized. So, you know, I think it's it's
definitely a thing. I'm sure I'm sure there's.
I'm sure there's always talk of, you know, are
there some secrets we can find out that are gonna,
you know, help us to better kind of disempower,
is that a word? Disempower? Disempower? It's
like, you know, the animal protection movement
or whatever sort of we're trying to get at. I
don't know, I don't worry about it that much.
I'm aware, especially the organization that I've
co -founded, Justify, that we're definitely a
group that is going to have eyes and ears on
us. Because our literal purpose is to support
people who have been a part of this industry,
may even still be a part of it. and help them
to share their stories, to kind of be this community
that they haven't had, where they're not going
to be demonized and they're also not going to
be told, like, they're not going to be, like,
thrown justifications about why they should keep
doing what they're doing. We're here to help
them, you know, think about this and not make
them justify what they're doing. So That being
said, we're definitely going to have, if we don't
already, eyes and ears on us. And it's an unfortunate
risk. There's risks inherent, I think, in lots
of things. And so we are, of course, trying to
do our best to mitigate risk and to protect individuals
as much as we can. But I think it also just shows
how important this work is. Ultimately, I just
I just know that this is this is the right thing
to do and so That I don't know I don't I mean
this is this is not like beautifully said by
any means but I'm just like this is this is right
like people should be sharing the truth about
what is going on in this industry and so yeah,
if You know, we'll deal with what is going to
come and I'm gonna protect people and support
people who do what I've done, which is come forward
and make these stories known because I know that
we can do better collectively as a society to
help humans and animals alike. And animal research
is just not the way that we should be doing that
at this point. Let me go back to what you said,
the crazy thing you said. So they were monitoring
you. And also creating fake profiles to do engagement
with your post. Is that it? No. So my understanding
what this was about is that I had been, I was
going to be doing a, well, I did a speaking,
like a virtual presentation for, um, what I believe
was the Raven core at the time. Um, a group that
like an activist group that you might be familiar
with. And the thing with the Ravenpore is that
they were specifically a group for youth. So
like 13 to 18, I think. And so because of that
for this event, they had specifically said like,
you know, this is this is meant to be an event
specifically for youth. You know. And they were
trying to curate it that way as opposed to like
a lot of my talks. Like it's just like anyone
can jump on and join. Like you can sign up. It
doesn't matter who you are, where you are. But
they were specifically saying like it was for
13 to 18 year olds. And so the University of
Wisconsin, these staff members were talking about
creating fake profiles so that they seem to be
in, you know. what counted as, you know, 13 to
18 year olds, which to me is even weirder. But
you're like, this is so much worse than I thought
it was. But again, it's like, I think for this
call, like I was like, hey, I like got on to
it. And I remember seeing my grandma. So You
can't join so my like 80 some year well actually
was she already in her 90s at that she 80 or
90 year old grandmother Was on because she wanted
to hear me speak and it wasn't like they were
like you're not allowed to be here You know,
so it's it was more of like guidelines than like
you have to be 13 to 18 but regardless My whole
point is just like y 'all want to hear me speak
come, you know, I even spoke at Madison Why weren't
you there? You didn't you didn't want to come
and and join them. So yeah, it's a it's a little
ridiculous. That's hilarious. Just like sitting
here like laughing hysterically. There are universities
talking about creating fake minor children profiles
to go in your talk to spy on you. Yeah, because
anywhere else you wouldn't like need a fake.
I mean, unless they were just like, I just don't
want my name to be associated. But it was for
this Ravencorp Ravencorp event, because it was
one of the first times I was, you know, doing
this. I mean, now I've done so many, I'm sure
they've listened to all of my podcasts and talks.
But that was one of the early ones, which is
probably why they were like, Oh, I wonder what
she's gonna say. I don't know. I don't even remember
what I said because it was a couple of years
ago now. Honestly, I don't remember what I said
yesterday most of the time or even earlier in
our conversation. So all I know is that I tend
to not say anything that I wouldn't want anyone
else to hear because things like a good rule
to live by. I mean, I'm sure it was recorded
and this conversation is also recorded. So if
you have, you know, if you're wondering what
you said, you can always read. Sometimes I do
go back and listen to the recordings and it's
not like to be like, Oh God, what did I say?
It's just like, Oh, like that was a good point
that I brought up. I should remember to say that.
Like, it's like more just, you know, cause I
am a very, I mean, you know, this by now, because
this is my third time on your show, but I'm i'm
very like free flowing right like i don't like
to sound scripted i've never wanted to like sound
scripted i rarely use any sort of script unless
it's like this is a point i need to make i'm
gonna make sure it's there but. You know i just
i just wanna be real with people. I don't want
them to be real with me so it's just how i function
not to say that someone you know i. I have issues
with people who do use scripts or like use more
notes. It's just, it's, this is just how I am.
And, you know, hopefully, hopefully people, people
are cool with it. I mean, you just, you know,
uh, spelled out the, the principles of podcasting.
Be real, have a good conversation flow. That's
about it. I mean Well, and and the exciting news
is guess who's also starting a podcast So we'll
see how that goes but yeah justify is gonna be
starting a podcast very soon so you'll get to
to hear lots of streams of consciousness, but
not just mine other people who have worked in
the industry just having these conversations,
which I think is honestly gonna be great because
it's super nice to have those conversations and
like again we feel even just talking to each
other in that format we feel supported and then
to be able to kind of offer that to others who
are like wow i don't have anyone to talk to about
this and and now i'm hearing people talk about
this and it's resonating with me so we're you
know We're starting a podcast. So get ready.
And I'm totally going to be coming to you to
ask how to do it. You are welcome. And I am looking
forward to this podcast because I'm, I'm sure
this will be an interesting, you know, you'll
have some interesting conversations. Like I'm
exciting. I excited for this because And I hate
to do this, but if I look at, you know, most
vegan animal rights podcasts out there, it's
not that interesting. It's not that daring. It's,
it's always the same, the same question, not
the same questions with an S the same question,
which is how did you become vegan? that there's
this all very uninteresting story about, you
know, coming, finding footage or, you know, you,
yeah, you, you've listened to one. You've listened
to all. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's a lot. I mean,
It's what is the word saturated right? Like I
mean, I think just in general the podcast industry
is is pretty saturated But we feel we feel good
about this because this doesn't exist. I mean,
that's the whole thing justify didn't exist Right,
like we're the only organization in the world
doing what we're doing. And so that gives us
hope that like we can then you know help bring
about positive change because it's not just kind
of Another organization doing kind of the same
thing and not to say we don't need multiple organizations
working on different issues but. Yeah I think
it's like if we if we want to to be to be heard
we need to stand out and. As you said, it's like
it's these days. It's hard to stand out social
media. Social media itself is saturated. It's
it's hard to like show that you're unique and
worth listening to. And I feel that every day.
So I agree. But, you know, most podcasts don't
last past the fifth episode. People are just
sort of like, this seemed like a good idea at
the time. And I hope this doesn't happen with
you. If you feel like it will happen, just reach
out to me. I've seen so many animal rights podcasts,
just go reach the eighth episode and then just
disappear from the face of the earth like they
never existed. Yeah, I know I you know, we're
We're in this for the long game. I'm I'm excited.
We've got a lot of good ideas for this this I
mean I just this is this is the thing every time
I'm on a podcast or like doing some sort of uh
presentation like I realized there's so much
more to talk about than there's time for right
and so I'm like this is this is what the podcast
is for it's like there's always so much more
we can dive into especially as people who have
been in this industry because you just don't
You don't realize how much people don't know
and people don't know how much they don't know
about this industry. I mean, we could we could
focus an entire episode just on like what it
was like to learn how to restrain an animal in
the lab and what that experience. And by whole
episode, I mean, there could be like multiple
episodes, right? Like, and that's just like this
this tiny piece. of what was asked of us, of
what we did, of what we were complicit in. And
so I think the podcast is going to be a good
thing for Justify. I mean, you just need to choose
a great name. We're working on that. We've got
a few ideas. I was thinking, I was sharing with
some people that uh if it was not the vegan report
i would have called this podcast veganism after
dark something like that yeah yeah although wait
wasn't that vegan after dark didn't like sky
wasn't sky's called that at some point i thought
do you know sky yes didn't wasn't his originally
called vegan after dark or something was called
vegan after dark maybe Yeah, was it yeah, he
was vegan. Yeah, he has this like vegan after
dark thing what? Yeah, this proves our origin
unoriginal This proves I am unoriginal Yes, no
vegan after dark. I mean, I think that maybe
he's using different names now because him and
dr. Crystal Heath are doing Doing stuff together.
And so I think that Like, I don't or maybe he's
still doing vegan after dark as well. I'm not
honestly sure. But I know he is. He has that
coined for some of his content. You know, what's
possible is that I came across his podcast and
I just, you know, unconsciously took a liking
for his podcast and attributed that to me. I
read about this with literary agents and editors
and they say, I come across the plot of Harry
Potter like a hundred times a year. Wow. People
think that they're original. Yeah, they're like,
yeah, I've come up with something new and it's
like, no, still. That's Harry Potter. Just Harry
Potter revised. That's so funny. Okay, Maddie.
Well, now you know. Now I know, yes. Did you
want to add something before we end this conversation?
Because we're in the middle of a heat wave. I
stopped the AC. And I am officially profusely
sweating. Well, you're comfortably in a sweatshirt.
I'm looking red. To the record, we don't even
have air conditioning here. I mean, some places
do, but most of them still don't in the like
immediate Bay Area because, you know, Oakland,
Berkeley, it's just historically has never gotten
that hot. But yeah, anyway, do I have anything
to wrap up with? It's been a pleasure as usual.
Always is. I would say If anyone has questions,
wants to reach out, definitely do. Please follow
and subscribe and all of those fun things to
Justify's work. On social media, we are at When
We Justify, and our website's WhenWeJustify .org.
I'm also on social media as Madeline Krasnow,
and I just appreciate everyone listening to this.
stream of consciousness. Great parting words.
If you have already subscribed, create a fake
account and just subscribe to that account too.
Do it again. Just do it again with other accounts
like. Brainstorm. You know it's possible now.
That was very funny. Maddie, thank you so much.
Yes, this was a very pleasant conversation and
I learned a lot. I hope people did too. Thank
you so much for your great pioneering work and
looking forward to your podcast. Yes, yes. Can't
wait. It's been a pleasure. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.