WEBVTT

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Welcome to The Vegan Report, I'm Ryan and today

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we're celebrating a powerful victory by Madeleine

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Krasno, founder of Justify, against her alma

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mater, the University of Wisconsin -Madison.

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The university censored her online denunciation

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of the cruel animal testing conducted in its

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labs, but Madeleine fought back and won. She

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shared with me shocking new details about how

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the university monitored her social media and

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even planned to infiltrate an animal rights lecture

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by creating fake accounts. We also discussed

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Brian Coburger, the Idaho killer, who surprisingly

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is vegan. Plus, the launch of Madeline's new

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podcast, which I'm really excited about, and

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how allies of this movement can emerge from the

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most unexpected places. Check out the episode

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notes to connect with Justify and Madeline. Her

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initiative is groundbreaking and truly deserves

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your support. If you want to know more about

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Madeline's inspiring journey, check out episode

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51 of the podcast, Waking Up from the Nightmare

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of Animal Testing. Finally, I invite you to share

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this podcast with your tribe, subscribe to the

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show, leave a positive review, and help grow

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this podcast. Every bit of support counts. Thank

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you. Maddie, welcome back to the show. Third

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time here. Thank you so much for having accepted

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my invitation. Thank you so much for having me

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back. And you're back with some great, amazing

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positive news. You've announced that about five

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days ago, I think, on August 5. So let's start

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with this. What is the breaking news? Well, actually,

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the breaking news happened on August 1st. I think

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I only let you know maybe on August 5th. I can't

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remember. Time is time is confusing. But yes,

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we found out that my free speech lawsuit against

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the University of Wisconsin, Madison, my alma

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mater, the appeal was successful in our favor.

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We won. Congratulations. So how did you learn

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the news? Was it an email? Was it the phone call?

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Was it, I actually, um, it was, yeah, I was,

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uh, I had taken my, I was with my dog at the

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vet and all of a sudden I looked down at my phone

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and I had like four messages from my lawyer at

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the animal legal defense fund. And I hadn't opened

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the messages yet, but I was like, Hmm, Caitlin's

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texting me. Why is Caitlin texting me? And I

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was like, oh my god, Caitlin's texting me. So

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I opened the messages and it was like, we got

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the ruling. We won the appeal. I'm still reading

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through it, but I just wanted to let you know.

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And so that was like Friday afternoon, August

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1st, which, you know, it was a Friday afternoon.

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So it was already like evening on the East Coast

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where she is. So end of the week, which is kind

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of where I got to enjoy myself, celebrate on

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the weekend and then hit the ground running on

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Monday with the news kind of taking over and

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getting some media features. She texted you the

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news. She's a millennial. Yes. And then later

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I got emails and stuff, but she just wanted to

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like right away be like, Hey Maddie. But that's

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a generation thing. She's a millennial. Yeah,

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totally. I mean, I was, I was like, literally,

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this is the perfect way to get the news. Exactly.

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I'm not criticizing it. Okay. So let's do a quick

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recap. You know, what was this? This was an appeal.

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I think the first time they won their case and

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then you went on appeal and this time you won.

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So what happened there? Yes. Well, what happened

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there? You know, I think we could probably kind

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of circle back to Okay, let's start at the beginning

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here. So I start speaking out about my experience

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working in an animal research lab and I'm taking

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to Instagram and Facebook to do this. I am commenting

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on my alma mater's Instagram and Facebook. So

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again, this is the University of Wisconsin Madison

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where I worked in one of their primate labs during

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college. And I was basically trying to share

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about my experience and also You know inform

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students that this is still going on. This is

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our community You all have a right to know what

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is happening what this what this is doing to

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the animals what it's doing to the humans who

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are involved and so ultimately Madison was not

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thrilled Surprisingly with these comments they

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ended up censoring my account And that led to

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this free speech lawsuit because the University

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of Wisconsin -Madison is a publicly funded university,

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which means they're getting government funding,

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tax dollars, to do the work that they do, which

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includes animal research. And so we have this

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free speech case that we brought on and you know,

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I gotta pause to explain this whole keyword testing

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thing because it all ties back to that. So these

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keywords censorship, this keyword censorship

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that was taking place, we found out about because

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after I had been censored, they uncensored me

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basically. And I was allowed to comment again.

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But what we're finding out is that some of my

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comments would show up and some of them wouldn't.

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And so what ended up happening is we learned

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there was this thing called a keyword list where

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any word on that list, if someone commented about

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it, that comment would be invisible. It would

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only be seen by the person commenting and like

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the University of Wisconsin -Madison and the

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public wouldn't see it. And this list was made

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up almost entirely of words related to animal

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research. So you can imagine that's impacting

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people's ability to talk about animal research.

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And when we found this out, we added this to

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the lawsuit, but then we also were wondering

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who else was engaging in this keyword filtering

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practice. And we found out that there were other

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universities that were government funded, engaging

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in this practice, trying to censor language,

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or sorry, discussion related to animal research.

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And we also found out that the National Institutes

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of Health was doing the same thing. And that

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is absolutely wild because the National Institutes

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of Health is the number one funder of animal

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research in this country, the United States.

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We ended up bringing on a second free speech

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lawsuit against the National Institutes of Health

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and that was me my friend Ryan Hartkoff who was

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just a Madison resident who wanted to help me

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with my cases and Cares about the issues of animals

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and research and then PETA and so we were the

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plaintiffs in that lawsuit We sued the NIH We

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lost we appealed and we won so That win was one

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year before I won this lawsuit against the University

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of Madison. And because they're similar, you

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know, we think that that is part of the whole

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decision with the ruling because the case, the

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cases are very similar. It's about free speech

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online. How does that go for summing this up?

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It's great. You basically, you basically set

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your own precedent for your second lawsuit. Yeah,

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yeah, even though the Madison lawsuit was actually

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first, we won the NIH came after, but we won

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that one first. And then, yeah, ultimately, though,

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I think, yes, we we have, we're setting a precedent.

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It's very exciting. It's fascinating. Okay. What

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are those social media platforms? I think it

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was Instagram, Facebook. Yeah, it was it was

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Instagram and Facebook that I was using. So that

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those are the the platforms that were included

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in this lawsuit in particular or in both of these

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lawsuits in particular. So they were both using

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keyword filters on Instagram and on Facebook

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to basically control the conversation. And when

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did you notice that it was being censored? Because

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you said, you know, you see your comment in the

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comment section, but other people don't see it.

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Right. And that's I mean, you know, all things

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considered, that is wonderfully sneaky, right?

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Because someone thinks then, yes, I've made a

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comment, I've put my perspective out there. And,

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you know, you just kind of assume, okay, like,

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I did it. I think what struck me is that there

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were certain times where I would comment something

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and I was like, it's really weird that no one's

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reacting to what I said here. You know, like,

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you would just kind of expect even just like

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a like, let alone like someone responding to

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it. And there was nothing. And that struck me

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because other times I would comment and there

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would be a lot of reaction and so it was like

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what's going on here and what ended up happening

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is I would go to my friend Ryan who I mentioned

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who ended up being a plaintiff on the NIH lawsuit

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and I was like do you see my comment like what's

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happening and he was like no I don't like, I

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see this comment, I don't see that comment. We're

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like, well, why do we see this comment and not

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that comment? And so Ryan was the one who did

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a FOIA request, the Freedom of Information Act

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request, and found out that they were engaging

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in these blocked or censored word lists. So that

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is that's how we figured it out. It was really

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because I was expecting a reaction that I wasn't

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getting. Why? Was that filter in place, you know,

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they made that decision of censoring people Was

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it a way to discourage that kind of discourse

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so they're thinking someone like Maddie will

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come and start, you know commenting bad things

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things that would hurt our reputation and If

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there are no reactions to her comment, then at

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some point she will stop you know, commenting,

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but also we will hide her, um, you know, problematic

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comments from the rest of the community. So they're

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isolating you while discouraging you to continue

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commenting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think

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it's this idea that if we can, if we can prevent

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this discourse about what is taking place here,

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the animal research, which has been going on

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for so many decades. I mean, the University of

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Wisconsin -Madison has one of the most well -known

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histories of animal research because of Harry

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Harlow, the infamous primate researcher. I literally

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went on to work in his lab long after he had

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died. But regardless, the backbone of this university

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is animal research. They will proudly discuss

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it, but only from their own perspective, right?

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They're not actually wanting to allow this discourse

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to take place that questions it. And so the idea

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on their social media accounts seem to be, well,

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if we can prevent this from happening, then we

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won't be attracting negative attention to this.

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Because the reality is, is that A lot of the

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public is not into animal research. Yeah, it's

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not helping. Your comments are not helping. No.

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When you announced the good news, you said those

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are two victories. So there's one victory for

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animal rights for the animals. What is the second

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victory about? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's the

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victory for the animals themselves, which Of

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course i mean you know it's not like i'm i'm

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getting animals out in this moment but it's a

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victory in that we can advocate for them more

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openly and and not get censored. But also i you

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know it's a victory for people who have been

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a part of this industry and deserve to be able

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to talk about their experiences and feel heard

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and understood. Because it's. You know, it's

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it's pretty psychologically damaging to be a

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part of this you know, everyone has their unique

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experiences, but when you care about animals

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and you're put in a situation where You are also

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complicit in their harm it It hurts you, you

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know, like we I'd like to think that most humans

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inherently want to help someone who is suffering

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help someone who is being harmed and And that's

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what I went into the lab to do in the first place

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Like I went in there to care for these animals

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I was a caretaker and yet I'm caring for animals

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whose lives don't belong to them and who ultimately

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You know are going to be killed in the name of

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science and and that you know cause a lot of

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moral distress and it's something that needs

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to be talked about because we are creating a

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bunch of people this industry is creating a bunch

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of people who are shutting down their empathy

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shutting down their compassion being told that

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their compassion is. you know a problem or not

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ideal like you can have some compassion but don't

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have this much you can care a little but don't

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care too much because or else you become a threat

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to the industry so. Being able to talk about

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this is important cuz how are we gonna do better

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how are we gonna actually care for humans and

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create things that that help humans if we're

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so busy trying to protect an industry that's.

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not even coming up with what it says that it's

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setting out to do. What you're saying is so right,

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so much so that, you know, I can give myself

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as a living example of someone who, if I did

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not cross paths with you, I would never have

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thought of the suffering of the researchers.

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I mean, it's logical when you think about it,

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when you really think about it, but it never

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you know, cross my mind that this was a big problem

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for them to always focused on the animals. And

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I think it's partly due to, you know, all the

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campaigns that we got from different animal rights

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organizations, they always focus on the animals,

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never mentioned the researcher or it's this cartoonish

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villain character. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's I mean,

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and that's It makes me, it gives me hope like

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hearing you say that because it's not to say

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that there aren't, I don't know, bad apples in

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the industry. There's bad apples everywhere,

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right? Like there's always going to be people

00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:39.360
who unfortunately are harming other beings, whether

00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:42.879
it's humans or non -humans and doings and maybe

00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.740
just don't care maybe really truly don't but

00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:50.100
there is definitely an assumption that has been

00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.860
perpetuated that everyone who's a part of animal

00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:56.720
research. Is bad you know like wants to harm

00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.220
animals is doing this solely for money whatever

00:17:01.220 --> 00:17:05.000
it is and again i'm not saying that there aren't

00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.500
any of those people but if we assume that everyone

00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:12.250
who's involved in this industry is that. then

00:17:12.250 --> 00:17:19.630
we are missing a really important reason to be

00:17:19.630 --> 00:17:22.349
moving away from this industry. This industry

00:17:22.349 --> 00:17:26.849
is damaging people. It is telling them to shut

00:17:26.849 --> 00:17:29.450
down their compassion and empathy, and that gets

00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:32.549
applied elsewhere. When you learn that some lives

00:17:32.549 --> 00:17:34.470
matter less than others, you're not like, oh,

00:17:34.470 --> 00:17:37.549
that's just for animals. You start to apply that

00:17:37.549 --> 00:17:42.200
to other humans. And so we need to think what

00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.759
we are considering to be science, what we are

00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:48.059
considering to be progress, what we are considering

00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:53.680
is worth funding, you know, the ways at which

00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:55.660
we're trying to help humans, because there's

00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:58.440
other ways we could be helping humans, changing

00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.019
their lives drastically for the better right

00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:04.819
now, with all of this, you know, billions of

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:08.640
dollars that are used for animal research, and

00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.549
yet we aren't. And a lot of times when when anything

00:18:12.549 --> 00:18:16.089
does come out of, you know, animal research that

00:18:16.089 --> 00:18:19.630
benefits humans, it's not even accessible to

00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:22.130
most people. Right. Like you think about especially

00:18:22.130 --> 00:18:24.029
here in the United States, think about our health

00:18:24.029 --> 00:18:26.809
care system, having health insurance, having

00:18:26.809 --> 00:18:31.269
access to, you know, what what is needed. So

00:18:31.269 --> 00:18:35.089
many people don't. And so it's like, who who

00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:38.509
are these miracle cures, even if that miracle

00:18:38.509 --> 00:18:42.740
cure happens? Who even has access to them? Yes,

00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:46.759
it reminds me of a Oxfam campaign where they

00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:50.619
were denouncing social inequality and they were

00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:55.380
posting pictures of the hands of deep sea fishermen

00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:59.279
in Asia. And, you know, you look at their hands

00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.400
and they're all wounded. There are fingers missing.

00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:06.140
And you look at that and you think this is This

00:19:06.140 --> 00:19:08.839
is the kind of campaign we should have adopted

00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:13.079
with, I don't know, PETA or any big animal rights

00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.059
organization to stop fishing, you know, show

00:19:16.059 --> 00:19:19.279
the hands of the fishermen, talk about the inequality.

00:19:20.339 --> 00:19:24.559
This will hit people hard because let's be honest,

00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.900
you know, it's difficult to empathize with the

00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:31.200
fish. Yeah, yeah. And and it's not just that.

00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:35.900
It's like, I think I. It's like we also need

00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:39.160
to empathize with the humans and if we don't

00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.359
then what does that say about us you know like

00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:47.920
truly and it's like. It starts to really make

00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.880
me kind of question some of the animal activism

00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:55.160
that takes place. It's like, you are out there

00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.579
saying you want, you know, you want humans, the

00:19:58.579 --> 00:20:01.720
general public to open their hearts more to these

00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.980
animals, but then you at the same time are like,

00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:07.920
I will not empathize with this person because

00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:09.880
they worked in a research lab. I don't care what

00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.039
they did. I don't care what like, you know, hard

00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:16.710
pass. And it's like, Well, I don't know like

00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:19.670
how are we we need to set an example we need

00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:22.549
an empathizing with someone showing compassion

00:20:22.549 --> 00:20:24.430
doesn't mean you agree with what they did or

00:20:24.430 --> 00:20:29.089
didn't do It just it just means that you're you're

00:20:29.089 --> 00:20:31.869
not out there demonizing them for their part

00:20:31.869 --> 00:20:36.029
in a very complicated system You know, yeah,

00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:38.950
and you don't have a choice for your mental health,

00:20:39.269 --> 00:20:43.839
you know to to like and maybe love your fellow

00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:49.180
men to give them the benefits of the doubt, to

00:20:49.180 --> 00:20:53.819
respect them. If you don't do that, then how

00:20:53.819 --> 00:21:00.339
are you going to survive just mentally? There

00:21:00.339 --> 00:21:04.900
is a deep misentropy among many animal rights

00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:08.680
activists. I do see that and I do think it's

00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:13.140
damaging. Yeah, I think it's I yeah I have to

00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:17.660
agree and I get it like I I get it like I empathize

00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:22.059
with it because I Understand how upsetting it

00:21:22.059 --> 00:21:26.559
is to see animals experience what they do So

00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:31.259
I it's not that I don't understand it It's just

00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:34.819
that I think I'm over time getting better at

00:21:34.819 --> 00:21:38.220
holding this whole like both and whatever like

00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:43.559
whatever that is where it's like yes and um because

00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:49.140
I don't think yeah I don't think demonizing humans

00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.920
altogether is is also going to ultimately help

00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.500
animals we need to we need to realize that there

00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:59.730
are there is good out there that can be fostered

00:21:59.730 --> 00:22:02.349
and that can grow. And, and if we don't believe

00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:04.390
people can change, then what are we doing in

00:22:04.390 --> 00:22:06.690
the first place? You know, like, why bother?

00:22:07.630 --> 00:22:10.450
But I do, I know people can change. I know people

00:22:10.450 --> 00:22:12.329
can grow and they can do better. And that's,

00:22:12.329 --> 00:22:15.150
that's why it's why I do the work that I do.

00:22:15.289 --> 00:22:17.890
That's, it's part of what, what led to justify

00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:20.910
this, this organization that is at its core,

00:22:21.349 --> 00:22:26.980
you know, Seize the good in in the people who

00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:29.640
were a part of this industry or are a part of

00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:34.779
this industry and have been misled by it. Yeah,

00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.299
that's a great point. I know someone she was

00:22:38.299 --> 00:22:43.539
a lobbyist for the turkey industry, I think.

00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:47.619
And, and now she's vegan and the sanctuary owner

00:22:47.619 --> 00:22:51.920
and one hell of an activist. So yes, believe

00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.700
in change, believe that even the thing, you know,

00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:58.339
the people you think are monsters can, you know,

00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:01.059
become angels and your friends and allies in

00:23:01.059 --> 00:23:04.900
this fight. Let me ask you this. Do you feel

00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:10.920
like you're part of a change, a wind change in

00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.640
history right now? Because I feel like animal

00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.460
testing is at the end of its rope with the recent

00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:24.619
announcement of the NIH and different levels

00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:29.740
of government that they are going to let go of

00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:33.579
this practice more and more, if not ban it completely

00:23:33.579 --> 00:23:38.339
for certain animals. And now I see you winning

00:23:38.339 --> 00:23:41.779
in court against those big you know, industries,

00:23:41.779 --> 00:23:46.200
I feel like this is like an important chapter

00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:50.119
of history regarding animal rights. And you're

00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:53.220
one of those characters in that, you know, book

00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:57.819
written about it. So yeah, do you feel that?

00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:00.259
Do you feel like you're part of this momentum

00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:05.799
around this issue? For sure. I mean, it's, it's,

00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:10.559
it feels a little surreal to have gone from you

00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:13.640
know, suing the National Institutes of Health

00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:18.259
for not allowing us to talk about what is happening,

00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:20.680
what they are funding in terms of animal research,

00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:25.099
to the NIH putting on this like four -hour live

00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:28.500
stream about how they're going to be prioritizing

00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:32.920
human -relevant non -animal research. Like that,

00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:37.420
I mean, what? You know, like that's a... that's

00:24:37.420 --> 00:24:41.960
a turnaround. You know and at the same time like

00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:44.519
I'm cautiously optimistic. I think that there's

00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:47.680
a lot of good taking place and I also know that

00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:50.859
there is a lot of suffering still happening and

00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:53.859
so it's you know. There there's there are things

00:24:53.859 --> 00:24:57.420
to celebrate and also we need to keep up the

00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:01.960
momentum and hold the NIH and you know these

00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.880
other the powers that be accountable and say

00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.599
like we expect this to continue we expect you

00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.539
to stick to your word we want to start to see

00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:14.240
animal research phased out we wanna see these

00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:18.640
human relevant. you know, methods truly prioritized.

00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:21.980
So yeah, I think there's a lot happening in the

00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:26.740
animal research space. I mean, I've had like

00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:31.039
five people over the course of the last, I mean,

00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:33.819
the last year really contact me about different

00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:36.700
documentaries taking place, focusing on animal

00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:39.180
research. And that's so interesting to me, because

00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:42.240
for a while it felt like No one's talking about

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.099
animal research anymore. It's like we've almost

00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:48.480
sort of like kind of decided that it's, we can't

00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.940
fight it somehow. And now there's this kind of

00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:55.640
renewed momentum and I love to see it and I am

00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.099
excited about it. And I'm also overwhelmed by

00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:02.500
the suffering that's still happening. So it's,

00:26:02.500 --> 00:26:08.170
you know, yes and. But I do think if you had

00:26:08.170 --> 00:26:11.670
to choose a field in animal rights where you'll

00:26:11.670 --> 00:26:14.529
feel more optimistic at the end of the day than

00:26:14.529 --> 00:26:18.450
pessimistic, then it would be animal experiments.

00:26:19.390 --> 00:26:23.809
And tying it back to our last conversation about

00:26:23.809 --> 00:26:28.609
people changing or having change come from unexpected

00:26:28.609 --> 00:26:34.170
people. I listened to an interview with the NIH

00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:37.789
secretary or something, the guy who is responsible

00:26:37.789 --> 00:26:42.329
for, you know, stopping those animal test experiments.

00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:47.049
And he's not, you know, the animal rights type.

00:26:47.809 --> 00:26:50.349
First of all, he's not even vegan. Then, you

00:26:50.349 --> 00:26:53.099
know, he's like, very Christian and, you know,

00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:57.500
very conservative in his way and very, it's not,

00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:00.720
you know, the person you would picture being

00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:07.440
an ally in your cause. Yet, here we are. Yet,

00:27:07.539 --> 00:27:11.039
here we are. Well, and I think it shows the power

00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:16.519
to, you know, to actually thinking about an issue

00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:20.619
holistically, because You know animal research

00:27:20.619 --> 00:27:23.440
it's it's kind of the original animal rights

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.359
issue right like this is sort of like the first

00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:29.279
issue that kind of brought about an animal rights

00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:34.220
movement. And yet you know for so long there

00:27:34.220 --> 00:27:38.900
wasn't that much progress taking place and even

00:27:38.900 --> 00:27:41.940
so I feel like we could have had more been you

00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:45.000
know seeing more progress but I think the issue

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:50.779
is that. You know, I still told this like very

00:27:50.779 --> 00:27:53.259
regularly. I've had people come to Justify's

00:27:53.259 --> 00:27:56.380
page and literally say, you should be focusing

00:27:56.380 --> 00:27:59.599
on the animals. Like, why are you focusing on

00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:02.259
the humans? Like, this is about the animals.

00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.180
And first of all, I am always focusing on the

00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:09.680
animals. My mind is always on the animals. Just

00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.980
because I care about humans doesn't mean that

00:28:11.980 --> 00:28:14.680
I'm not thinking about. Animals, you know, like

00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:18.019
it's like I can I can care about them all my

00:28:18.019 --> 00:28:23.460
empathy isn't limited But also it's like sometimes

00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:27.799
the best work we can do for animals is By taking

00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:30.680
these issues and looking at them in ways that

00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:34.420
appeal more to the broader public It's just the

00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:38.240
unfortunate reality is that not everyone cares

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.809
enough About animals and research even if we're

00:28:42.809 --> 00:28:45.089
talking about like the dogs and the monkeys the

00:28:45.089 --> 00:28:48.369
species that people you know relate to the most

00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:50.809
Because when they hear something like we'll sign

00:28:50.809 --> 00:28:53.369
like this saves our lives like this is so important

00:28:53.369 --> 00:28:56.009
You know, it's what who would you save this child

00:28:56.009 --> 00:28:59.589
or or or this mouse, you know, like they're gonna

00:28:59.589 --> 00:29:03.369
automatically gravitate towards defending the

00:29:03.369 --> 00:29:08.289
science and We need to be able to come at this

00:29:08.289 --> 00:29:12.039
issue in a multitude of ways, not just by saying,

00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:16.579
you know, look at Beagle number, you know, one,

00:29:16.579 --> 00:29:18.839
two, three, this is what they've gone through

00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.740
because that is, that's just not going to hit

00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:26.200
home for everyone. And also it's just, it's not

00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:28.539
the full picture. We can't get at an interest

00:29:28.539 --> 00:29:33.319
in an industry that is this powerful by ignoring

00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.640
the way it funnels young impressionable people

00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.500
into it. and then strips them of their empathy.

00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:50.220
That's, that's powerful. And it's so weird, because

00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:54.380
not only your, you care about animals, but you're

00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:58.440
demonstrating that everyone cares about animals,

00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:01.519
including those who cause suffering to those

00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:05.930
animals, by, you know, highlighting their suffering

00:30:05.930 --> 00:30:09.549
their psychological suffering of those researchers,

00:30:09.549 --> 00:30:14.609
you're showing that they care, that everyone

00:30:14.609 --> 00:30:19.730
cares. And you're, you know, turning our attention

00:30:19.730 --> 00:30:23.450
to the industry to the incentives to, you know,

00:30:23.450 --> 00:30:27.630
the real stuff that is making us do those things

00:30:27.630 --> 00:30:32.759
that is feeding that abuse. So, yeah, very powerful.

00:30:32.859 --> 00:30:36.839
And the other thing is, and that's a bit of a

00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:42.180
sensitive issue, but recently there was that

00:30:42.180 --> 00:30:46.900
murder. He's a vegan, by the way, which is not

00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:52.559
important, but somehow always comes out. Always

00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.299
comes out. I've been following this case because

00:30:56.299 --> 00:31:00.759
he's a vegan and I wanted to see if the bad publicity

00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:06.039
around it, how it would unfold. Yes. What's his

00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:13.579
name? Brian Coburger. Yeah, Coburger. Brian Coburger.

00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:16.279
So I was looking at that case, following that

00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:22.339
case, Brian Coburger is a vegan and The families

00:31:22.339 --> 00:31:26.400
of the victims. Oh, Brian Coburger. Brian. Yes.

00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.599
Yes. Okay. I actually thought you were talking

00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:35.200
about a completely different case like some animal

00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.599
act that I had heard of. Okay. I'm on. Yes. I

00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.660
know what you're talking about now. Yeah. Everyone

00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:44.140
in the space of true crime. Yeah. The Idaho killings.

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.839
Yeah. Yes. Okay. So this guy, I was listening

00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:51.720
to the families and They were, you know, saying

00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:54.619
we wanted some closure. We wanted some explanation

00:31:54.619 --> 00:31:58.579
from him. And we also wanted, um, details about

00:31:58.579 --> 00:32:02.779
the last days of the victims, um, or the last

00:32:02.779 --> 00:32:06.240
moments I should say, um, before they, they,

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.819
they died. And, you know, for someone, you know,

00:32:11.019 --> 00:32:15.759
outside, um, of this, you know, the thought of

00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:19.490
having details about that feels morbid. But you

00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:23.569
see that even, you know, in war crimes or things

00:32:23.569 --> 00:32:26.950
of the sort. And I think, you know, I want to

00:32:26.950 --> 00:32:29.349
hear the same from those researchers. I want

00:32:29.349 --> 00:32:32.809
to hear about the last moments of those creatures

00:32:32.809 --> 00:32:38.569
that were in those labs. Because, you know, they

00:32:38.569 --> 00:32:42.589
are the last witness of their last living moments.

00:32:42.859 --> 00:32:46.500
and sometimes of their entire lives. And if those

00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:48.980
people, you know, if we put distance between

00:32:48.980 --> 00:32:53.819
us and those researchers, then we've, we've just,

00:32:54.019 --> 00:32:58.500
you know, given away the possibility to learn

00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.519
about those important stories about all of those

00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:05.559
living beings that went through those places.

00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:09.799
And so we need them, we need to tell the stories

00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:15.109
of, you know, the mice, the uh monkeys and all

00:33:15.109 --> 00:33:18.109
the other creatures that that uh found their

00:33:18.109 --> 00:33:22.529
way there yeah yeah no i mean i i think there's

00:33:22.529 --> 00:33:28.069
there's something about knowledge right like

00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:33.289
knowing understanding um and i think that plays

00:33:33.289 --> 00:33:36.710
a really interesting role too in in the fields

00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:39.950
of science right because we use that to justify

00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:46.059
a lot of what we do And yet we control the knowledge

00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:48.339
that is shared, right? Because we're not sharing

00:33:48.339 --> 00:33:51.059
that knowledge. We're not sharing, like, these

00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:54.119
intimate moments of what these animals are going

00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:57.779
through. But we're saying, oh, we're gonna do

00:33:57.779 --> 00:33:59.799
this study so that we can find this one thing

00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.339
out, and that might lead to this, and this is

00:34:02.339 --> 00:34:04.319
why we're justifying this, because it's all about

00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:11.400
knowing, right? So it's interesting to look at

00:34:11.789 --> 00:34:16.989
You know what what we justify and and how how

00:34:16.989 --> 00:34:21.949
knowledge is sort of What is the word that I'm

00:34:21.949 --> 00:34:28.150
looking for like? weaponized I Mean because now

00:34:28.150 --> 00:34:31.909
in that case with with Brian this this killer.

00:34:31.989 --> 00:34:36.869
It's like he's He's keeping that to himself.

00:34:36.869 --> 00:34:41.889
He is weaponizing his knowledge about what happened.

00:34:43.309 --> 00:34:49.329
And yeah, it's just, I mean, I haven't thought

00:34:49.329 --> 00:34:52.250
a whole lot about this other than just how completely

00:34:52.250 --> 00:34:57.309
gruesome and senseless the whole thing is. Ooh,

00:34:57.309 --> 00:35:03.670
sorry. And yeah, this is just like me like now.

00:35:03.789 --> 00:35:05.530
pouring out thoughts. Is this what a podcast

00:35:05.530 --> 00:35:11.389
is for? I think it's interesting to this concept

00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:15.929
of being vegan and committing such senseless

00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:20.949
acts because I obviously do not know this individual.

00:35:20.989 --> 00:35:23.150
I do not know what was going through his head.

00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:30.139
But I think that A lot of people have this tendency

00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:32.119
and I think this is like throughout like just

00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:35.440
animal rights activists in general we view animals

00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:41.000
as innocent. What we don't view humans as innocent

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:44.519
right like we're we're quicker to say well what

00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:47.320
was she wearing or what was you know what did

00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:51.579
they do that one time or what did they say and

00:35:51.579 --> 00:35:55.260
so it's like. There's a problem there, right?

00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.079
There's a problem with saying like you deserve

00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:01.980
innocence, but you don't and what this innocence

00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:08.340
means for them. And I guess I'm just yeah, I'm

00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:12.159
sitting with like this question of what, you

00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:14.400
know, is it because I think wasn't there a dog

00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.920
in this situation that was unharmed? Yeah, and

00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:21.619
I just I it makes me wonder if you know, that's

00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:24.280
part of it, the presumed innocence of this animal,

00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:27.099
but not of these these students who deserve to

00:36:27.099 --> 00:36:32.099
be alive and here with us today. Yes, not entirely

00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:36.179
sure if any of that made sense. But it Yes, it

00:36:36.179 --> 00:36:41.199
made sense. Eight consciousness. Well, that's

00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.920
what this podcast is for, you know, advancing

00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.860
the conversation. So bringing new thoughts and

00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:50.800
ideas and This concept of innocence, you know,

00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:58.360
it also reminds me of the commission for The

00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:02.420
amnesty or forgiveness the big commission that

00:37:02.420 --> 00:37:05.739
was of reconciliation I think that was created

00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:14.000
after the apartheid regime in South Africa And

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:19.750
they invited perpetrators of Racist crimes to

00:37:19.750 --> 00:37:24.349
go and confess their crimes in exchange of innocence,

00:37:24.349 --> 00:37:28.309
you know of a Innocence deal with the justice

00:37:28.309 --> 00:37:32.309
system Because it was more important to share

00:37:32.309 --> 00:37:34.670
those stories to put light on those stories to

00:37:34.670 --> 00:37:37.949
give closure to the victims of you know those

00:37:37.949 --> 00:37:45.059
racist crimes then to Persecute the the the culprits

00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:49.579
and to send them in prison. Yeah, that's fascinating.

00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:54.940
Also, I need to read up on I did not know about

00:37:54.940 --> 00:37:59.699
that. Yeah. Yeah. One more reason to admire Nelson

00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:06.420
Mandela. Yeah. If there aren't enough. And also,

00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:11.800
I just realized another morbid detail. One of

00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:13.920
his victims was called Maddie, by the way, and

00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:27.039
she was vegan. Sorry about that. Yeah, I remember

00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:32.840
when this all unfolded and it's just horrific.

00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:38.579
It's just senseless. And yeah, I don't know that

00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:42.639
I have anything really I don't know, insightful

00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:48.300
to say other than that. It's unforgivable. Let

00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:54.119
me go back to your case. I wanted to ask... It's

00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:56.739
interesting. I mean, I think what's interesting

00:38:56.739 --> 00:39:00.980
about the whole thing is not like this case or

00:39:00.980 --> 00:39:05.880
this in particular, but just in general is like

00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:10.260
what I... What I hold as difficult and what I

00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.460
know that people in general hold as difficult

00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:16.019
is like, when is something like basically senseless

00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:19.659
and unreavable? And when, when is that not the

00:39:19.659 --> 00:39:22.900
case? Because I know, I'm sure there's people

00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:25.940
listening who are like, why would you say that

00:39:25.940 --> 00:39:28.800
like what these researchers are doing to whatever

00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.469
dogs is somehow different? And there's some people

00:39:32.469 --> 00:39:34.349
who would say, absolutely, it's different. And

00:39:34.349 --> 00:39:36.630
then there's some who would say, I don't understand

00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:39.570
why there would be an ounce of empathy here.

00:39:41.070 --> 00:39:44.469
And that's where I think we have to look at these

00:39:44.469 --> 00:39:48.289
bigger systems at play and what has created this

00:39:48.289 --> 00:39:53.170
field of animal research and what is acceptable.

00:39:54.289 --> 00:39:57.989
In the name of science and and all of the gears

00:39:57.989 --> 00:40:01.489
that are in place to keep it kind of going and

00:40:01.489 --> 00:40:05.030
ultimately putting people in this position of

00:40:05.030 --> 00:40:07.630
Yeah, what you're doing is is gonna save lives.

00:40:07.650 --> 00:40:11.769
So this is of course, okay So again stream of

00:40:11.769 --> 00:40:15.449
consciousness, but like I'm just aware that there

00:40:15.449 --> 00:40:19.320
there's going to be different reactions to this.

00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:22.280
Like, why am I saying absolutely write him off?

00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.840
Like, I'm writing him off. I was not gonna like

00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:29.280
I am not empathizing with him. It's possible

00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.340
that like in his childhood, I don't know nothing

00:40:31.340 --> 00:40:33.739
about his childhood, but it's possible that like,

00:40:33.739 --> 00:40:36.239
he went through things and experienced abuse,

00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.559
and I can feel empathy for the child. But I do

00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:42.460
not feel empathy for the killer and who he has

00:40:42.460 --> 00:40:47.650
become. Yes, definitely. And you know if we have

00:40:47.650 --> 00:40:51.489
reason to believe he is a danger to society let's

00:40:51.489 --> 00:40:55.170
put him in prison not out of spite not out of

00:40:55.170 --> 00:41:00.449
you know like out of protection of exactly let's

00:41:00.449 --> 00:41:05.809
be cold -headed about this right um yeah um what

00:41:05.809 --> 00:41:07.929
was the other thing you said and i wanted to

00:41:07.929 --> 00:41:12.909
comment on oh what do you make then of the tactics

00:41:12.909 --> 00:41:19.440
adopted by the alf of you know calling researchers

00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:24.300
um threatening them with uh you know murder or

00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:29.000
uh threatening their families um just intimidation

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:40.139
uh tactics from alf uh activists i was like i'm

00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:41.679
gonna talk and then i was like i'm not gonna

00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:48.389
talk you know like i My personal, my personal

00:41:48.389 --> 00:41:52.510
feelings are that I don't think it's probably

00:41:52.510 --> 00:41:57.670
the most productive way to invoke change. I don't

00:41:57.670 --> 00:42:03.070
think it's fair to like threaten harm, especially

00:42:03.070 --> 00:42:08.909
against someone's family. Because of this, again,

00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:13.250
I look at the animal industry the animal industry,

00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:18.530
the animal research industry as this powerful

00:42:18.530 --> 00:42:21.489
entity that's just not as simple as this one

00:42:21.489 --> 00:42:25.869
individual, you know, participating in or, you

00:42:25.869 --> 00:42:28.570
know, doing this one study. And I'm not just,

00:42:28.989 --> 00:42:31.710
you know, don't get me wrong, like, there are

00:42:31.710 --> 00:42:35.110
researchers where I'm just like, Like, I would

00:42:35.110 --> 00:42:37.630
just, I don't know, myself, be like, yeah, I'm

00:42:37.630 --> 00:42:39.349
writing them off. Like, I'm assuming they're

00:42:39.349 --> 00:42:41.610
not gonna change. But that doesn't mean that

00:42:41.610 --> 00:42:44.469
I'm gonna go and threaten their lives, or it

00:42:44.469 --> 00:42:46.670
might mean that I write to the institution where

00:42:46.670 --> 00:42:51.869
they are and I say, you know, this is egregious

00:42:51.869 --> 00:42:53.929
what is taking place. It is wrong. This should

00:42:53.929 --> 00:42:55.969
not be happening. Like, I don't agree with their

00:42:55.969 --> 00:43:00.449
work, blah, blah, blah. But that's not my MO

00:43:00.449 --> 00:43:06.719
to threaten harm. I don't know. I think we live

00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.099
in a very complicated world and there's a lot

00:43:09.099 --> 00:43:11.119
happening that's causing a lot of suffering and

00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:13.840
so I understand why people kind of reach this

00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:17.360
point of Should I throw this back? You know,

00:43:17.500 --> 00:43:20.820
like throw that harm back and and so I get it

00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:23.199
It's me like, you know, I empathize with it,

00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:27.269
right? but do I think it's like The right thing

00:43:27.269 --> 00:43:30.750
to be doing I don't definitely not for me. Definitely

00:43:30.750 --> 00:43:33.590
not for how I see change taking place because

00:43:33.590 --> 00:43:37.909
I know too that You know, you might be going

00:43:37.909 --> 00:43:40.349
after this one researcher But that researcher

00:43:40.349 --> 00:43:43.030
is gonna go to the whole rest of their lab and

00:43:43.030 --> 00:43:45.510
say what's going on and the rest of the lab is

00:43:45.510 --> 00:43:47.849
gonna go Oh, wow, these animal rights activists

00:43:47.849 --> 00:43:51.489
are crazy. That's that's totally right if I was

00:43:51.489 --> 00:43:54.909
starting to question things they This is clearly

00:43:54.909 --> 00:43:58.710
the side I should be on right like it sort of.

00:43:58.969 --> 00:44:01.789
Unblurs the lines when I think the lines need

00:44:01.789 --> 00:44:04.210
to be blurred because it's gonna help people

00:44:04.210 --> 00:44:08.150
who are already questioning things or all are

00:44:08.150 --> 00:44:10.429
already uncomfortable with what's taking place

00:44:10.429 --> 00:44:12.869
even though they're a part of it it's gonna push

00:44:12.869 --> 00:44:18.849
them farther away from us. So yeah, there's again,

00:44:19.030 --> 00:44:21.230
there's my stream of consciousness on this I

00:44:21.230 --> 00:44:23.469
think it's I think it's complicated but it's

00:44:23.469 --> 00:44:25.869
definitely not not the way I do things and not

00:44:25.869 --> 00:44:30.309
the way I think is gonna bring more of the inside

00:44:30.309 --> 00:44:35.849
insiders To a place where they feel like they

00:44:35.849 --> 00:44:39.949
can seek Community and they can speak out about

00:44:39.949 --> 00:44:46.139
you know, what's happening? I don't know if I

00:44:46.139 --> 00:44:50.480
remember that well. I don't know if they called

00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:52.920
researchers to threaten their families, but in

00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.699
any case, if you're being threatened with your

00:44:55.699 --> 00:44:58.300
life, you'll think about your family. You'll

00:44:58.300 --> 00:45:02.860
think that they're not safe. So, yeah. And, you

00:45:02.860 --> 00:45:06.139
know, I personally, I go back to my faith, you

00:45:06.139 --> 00:45:09.440
know, if I look at, you know, Buddhism, you fight

00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.420
harm with non -harm. you know, that's the universal

00:45:13.420 --> 00:45:17.260
rule. And I think there is a Christian version

00:45:17.260 --> 00:45:21.059
of that, of, you know, you present the other

00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:26.300
cheek, what was the expression in any case. So

00:45:26.300 --> 00:45:29.559
yeah, I think there is truth and power in that,

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.280
in fighting, you know, hate with love and empathy

00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.739
and kindness and all of those good wholesome

00:45:36.739 --> 00:45:40.900
things. Yeah. i mean i know i don't know i know

00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:43.880
that these days there's like there's question

00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.199
about you know like when people are being literally

00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:49.360
ripped from their homes and sent away from the

00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.960
only home they've ever known you know to to a

00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:58.619
another country like i understand that people

00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:00.800
are not gonna just like stand there and go like

00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:03.539
hi please stop like they're gonna they're gonna

00:46:03.539 --> 00:46:08.400
get physical right and i i respect that but that's

00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.320
why i think that it's like we just simply can't

00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:15.840
apply one thing like one we can't assume everything

00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.599
is the same that handling one issue this way

00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:22.559
because it worked here is it's gonna work there

00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:27.079
or it makes sense here and that's where i like

00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:31.159
over time have been kind of trying to make sense

00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:34.460
of this is that in this case it might make sense

00:46:34.460 --> 00:46:37.829
but in this case i don't think it does And that's

00:46:37.829 --> 00:46:43.710
okay, and maybe I'm wrong. I'm just kind of going

00:46:43.710 --> 00:46:46.070
by what I've learned and what I understand of

00:46:46.070 --> 00:46:48.269
this industry, which is also why I'm not going

00:46:48.269 --> 00:46:54.449
to speak to things that I know less of, if that

00:46:54.449 --> 00:46:59.090
makes sense. It makes sense, which brings me

00:46:59.090 --> 00:47:04.300
to discuss social media. I really, I really love

00:47:04.300 --> 00:47:09.460
discussing social media. I really wanted to have

00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:13.539
your opinion on that because I am in a paranoia

00:47:13.539 --> 00:47:18.280
phase. I really feel like, um, I had the conversation

00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:22.980
about media bias recently and I really, I really

00:47:22.980 --> 00:47:27.900
feel like if, um, what happened to you can happen.

00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:32.699
And if this big industry of animal experimentation,

00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:38.800
animal agriculture, whatever, has funding for

00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:44.119
social media managers, PR firms and so on, what

00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:49.320
stops them from trolling or infiltrating this

00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:57.340
movement just to derail it, just to make us mad

00:47:57.340 --> 00:48:03.630
or um, create and fighting or, um, yeah. Yeah.

00:48:03.710 --> 00:48:08.449
So what do you think of that? Am I being inspirational?

00:48:08.650 --> 00:48:15.050
Am I paranoid? I get the tinfoil hat. Like, yeah.

00:48:16.650 --> 00:48:22.070
Um, it's funny because it's like, I, during the

00:48:22.070 --> 00:48:27.780
discovery phase of my lawsuit, um, the University

00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:34.119
of Wisconsin -Madison admitted to basically monitoring

00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:36.739
my account, but also discussing like creating

00:48:36.739 --> 00:48:40.760
fake profiles to attend presentations of mine.

00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:46.960
Wow. Yeah, which again, my response is always

00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:51.380
like, you're more than welcome. I don't say anything,

00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:56.550
you know, in presentations online that I think

00:48:56.550 --> 00:49:00.909
that I wouldn't say, you know, with Wisconsin

00:49:00.909 --> 00:49:04.949
representatives in front of me, right? Like I'm

00:49:04.949 --> 00:49:07.150
so it's like, you're welcome. Attend the presentation.

00:49:07.349 --> 00:49:09.909
You don't have to hide. I mean, maybe if you're

00:49:09.909 --> 00:49:12.210
hiding, it's because you're actually afraid to

00:49:12.210 --> 00:49:18.190
be recognized. So, you know, I think it's it's

00:49:18.190 --> 00:49:20.929
definitely a thing. I'm sure I'm sure there's.

00:49:21.610 --> 00:49:26.449
I'm sure there's always talk of, you know, are

00:49:26.449 --> 00:49:29.349
there some secrets we can find out that are gonna,

00:49:29.349 --> 00:49:35.409
you know, help us to better kind of disempower,

00:49:35.510 --> 00:49:39.769
is that a word? Disempower? Disempower? It's

00:49:39.769 --> 00:49:44.389
like, you know, the animal protection movement

00:49:44.389 --> 00:49:51.740
or whatever sort of we're trying to get at. I

00:49:51.740 --> 00:49:54.760
don't know, I don't worry about it that much.

00:49:55.320 --> 00:50:00.880
I'm aware, especially the organization that I've

00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.340
co -founded, Justify, that we're definitely a

00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:08.880
group that is going to have eyes and ears on

00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:14.360
us. Because our literal purpose is to support

00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:16.719
people who have been a part of this industry,

00:50:17.179 --> 00:50:20.719
may even still be a part of it. and help them

00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:25.920
to share their stories, to kind of be this community

00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:29.960
that they haven't had, where they're not going

00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:31.699
to be demonized and they're also not going to

00:50:31.699 --> 00:50:34.679
be told, like, they're not going to be, like,

00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:37.500
thrown justifications about why they should keep

00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:40.880
doing what they're doing. We're here to help

00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:45.019
them, you know, think about this and not make

00:50:45.019 --> 00:50:49.670
them justify what they're doing. So That being

00:50:49.670 --> 00:50:53.510
said, we're definitely going to have, if we don't

00:50:53.510 --> 00:50:58.969
already, eyes and ears on us. And it's an unfortunate

00:50:58.969 --> 00:51:01.690
risk. There's risks inherent, I think, in lots

00:51:01.690 --> 00:51:05.130
of things. And so we are, of course, trying to

00:51:05.130 --> 00:51:09.730
do our best to mitigate risk and to protect individuals

00:51:09.730 --> 00:51:14.269
as much as we can. But I think it also just shows

00:51:14.269 --> 00:51:22.639
how important this work is. Ultimately, I just

00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:25.059
I just know that this is this is the right thing

00:51:25.059 --> 00:51:30.300
to do and so That I don't know I don't I mean

00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:32.719
this is this is not like beautifully said by

00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.559
any means but I'm just like this is this is right

00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:38.360
like people should be sharing the truth about

00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:41.460
what is going on in this industry and so yeah,

00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:45.000
if You know, we'll deal with what is going to

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.130
come and I'm gonna protect people and support

00:51:49.130 --> 00:51:52.690
people who do what I've done, which is come forward

00:51:52.690 --> 00:51:57.449
and make these stories known because I know that

00:51:57.449 --> 00:52:01.849
we can do better collectively as a society to

00:52:01.849 --> 00:52:05.289
help humans and animals alike. And animal research

00:52:05.289 --> 00:52:07.610
is just not the way that we should be doing that

00:52:07.610 --> 00:52:12.289
at this point. Let me go back to what you said,

00:52:12.949 --> 00:52:16.530
the crazy thing you said. So they were monitoring

00:52:16.530 --> 00:52:22.599
you. And also creating fake profiles to do engagement

00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:27.780
with your post. Is that it? No. So my understanding

00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:31.000
what this was about is that I had been, I was

00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.179
going to be doing a, well, I did a speaking,

00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:39.639
like a virtual presentation for, um, what I believe

00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:42.440
was the Raven core at the time. Um, a group that

00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.179
like an activist group that you might be familiar

00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:47.349
with. And the thing with the Ravenpore is that

00:52:47.349 --> 00:52:51.110
they were specifically a group for youth. So

00:52:51.110 --> 00:52:55.650
like 13 to 18, I think. And so because of that

00:52:55.650 --> 00:52:58.409
for this event, they had specifically said like,

00:52:58.469 --> 00:53:01.110
you know, this is this is meant to be an event

00:53:01.110 --> 00:53:05.389
specifically for youth. You know. And they were

00:53:05.389 --> 00:53:07.349
trying to curate it that way as opposed to like

00:53:07.349 --> 00:53:09.329
a lot of my talks. Like it's just like anyone

00:53:09.329 --> 00:53:11.409
can jump on and join. Like you can sign up. It

00:53:11.409 --> 00:53:13.409
doesn't matter who you are, where you are. But

00:53:13.409 --> 00:53:15.489
they were specifically saying like it was for

00:53:15.489 --> 00:53:19.010
13 to 18 year olds. And so the University of

00:53:19.010 --> 00:53:21.809
Wisconsin, these staff members were talking about

00:53:21.809 --> 00:53:24.809
creating fake profiles so that they seem to be

00:53:24.809 --> 00:53:29.510
in, you know. what counted as, you know, 13 to

00:53:29.510 --> 00:53:33.469
18 year olds, which to me is even weirder. But

00:53:33.469 --> 00:53:37.170
you're like, this is so much worse than I thought

00:53:37.170 --> 00:53:43.130
it was. But again, it's like, I think for this

00:53:43.130 --> 00:53:46.190
call, like I was like, hey, I like got on to

00:53:46.190 --> 00:53:51.590
it. And I remember seeing my grandma. So You

00:53:51.590 --> 00:53:54.909
can't join so my like 80 some year well actually

00:53:54.909 --> 00:53:57.250
was she already in her 90s at that she 80 or

00:53:57.250 --> 00:54:00.789
90 year old grandmother Was on because she wanted

00:54:00.789 --> 00:54:02.849
to hear me speak and it wasn't like they were

00:54:02.849 --> 00:54:04.869
like you're not allowed to be here You know,

00:54:04.869 --> 00:54:08.150
so it's it was more of like guidelines than like

00:54:08.150 --> 00:54:12.469
you have to be 13 to 18 but regardless My whole

00:54:12.469 --> 00:54:14.889
point is just like y 'all want to hear me speak

00:54:14.889 --> 00:54:18.449
come, you know, I even spoke at Madison Why weren't

00:54:18.449 --> 00:54:20.230
you there? You didn't you didn't want to come

00:54:20.230 --> 00:54:24.750
and and join them. So yeah, it's a it's a little

00:54:24.750 --> 00:54:30.469
ridiculous. That's hilarious. Just like sitting

00:54:30.469 --> 00:54:35.769
here like laughing hysterically. There are universities

00:54:35.769 --> 00:54:41.809
talking about creating fake minor children profiles

00:54:41.809 --> 00:54:46.960
to go in your talk to spy on you. Yeah, because

00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.300
anywhere else you wouldn't like need a fake.

00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:50.920
I mean, unless they were just like, I just don't

00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:54.599
want my name to be associated. But it was for

00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:58.380
this Ravencorp Ravencorp event, because it was

00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:01.880
one of the first times I was, you know, doing

00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:03.760
this. I mean, now I've done so many, I'm sure

00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:06.880
they've listened to all of my podcasts and talks.

00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:09.280
But that was one of the early ones, which is

00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:11.440
probably why they were like, Oh, I wonder what

00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:15.369
she's gonna say. I don't know. I don't even remember

00:55:15.369 --> 00:55:17.710
what I said because it was a couple of years

00:55:17.710 --> 00:55:20.429
ago now. Honestly, I don't remember what I said

00:55:20.429 --> 00:55:22.469
yesterday most of the time or even earlier in

00:55:22.469 --> 00:55:25.489
our conversation. So all I know is that I tend

00:55:25.489 --> 00:55:28.170
to not say anything that I wouldn't want anyone

00:55:28.170 --> 00:55:35.650
else to hear because things like a good rule

00:55:35.650 --> 00:55:40.530
to live by. I mean, I'm sure it was recorded

00:55:40.530 --> 00:55:43.650
and this conversation is also recorded. So if

00:55:43.650 --> 00:55:45.409
you have, you know, if you're wondering what

00:55:45.409 --> 00:55:49.289
you said, you can always read. Sometimes I do

00:55:49.289 --> 00:55:51.550
go back and listen to the recordings and it's

00:55:51.550 --> 00:55:53.489
not like to be like, Oh God, what did I say?

00:55:53.610 --> 00:55:56.130
It's just like, Oh, like that was a good point

00:55:56.130 --> 00:55:58.329
that I brought up. I should remember to say that.

00:55:58.349 --> 00:56:00.969
Like, it's like more just, you know, cause I

00:56:00.969 --> 00:56:03.269
am a very, I mean, you know, this by now, because

00:56:03.269 --> 00:56:07.130
this is my third time on your show, but I'm i'm

00:56:07.130 --> 00:56:10.030
very like free flowing right like i don't like

00:56:10.030 --> 00:56:13.329
to sound scripted i've never wanted to like sound

00:56:13.329 --> 00:56:16.849
scripted i rarely use any sort of script unless

00:56:16.849 --> 00:56:18.670
it's like this is a point i need to make i'm

00:56:18.670 --> 00:56:21.829
gonna make sure it's there but. You know i just

00:56:21.829 --> 00:56:25.530
i just wanna be real with people. I don't want

00:56:25.530 --> 00:56:28.570
them to be real with me so it's just how i function

00:56:28.570 --> 00:56:31.829
not to say that someone you know i. I have issues

00:56:31.829 --> 00:56:34.610
with people who do use scripts or like use more

00:56:34.610 --> 00:56:37.670
notes. It's just, it's, this is just how I am.

00:56:38.869 --> 00:56:42.070
And, you know, hopefully, hopefully people, people

00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:47.269
are cool with it. I mean, you just, you know,

00:56:48.510 --> 00:56:53.010
uh, spelled out the, the principles of podcasting.

00:56:54.050 --> 00:56:59.699
Be real, have a good conversation flow. That's

00:56:59.699 --> 00:57:03.659
about it. I mean Well, and and the exciting news

00:57:03.659 --> 00:57:10.440
is guess who's also starting a podcast So we'll

00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:12.880
see how that goes but yeah justify is gonna be

00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.679
starting a podcast very soon so you'll get to

00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:19.920
to hear lots of streams of consciousness, but

00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.559
not just mine other people who have worked in

00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:24.900
the industry just having these conversations,

00:57:24.980 --> 00:57:27.820
which I think is honestly gonna be great because

00:57:28.110 --> 00:57:30.989
it's super nice to have those conversations and

00:57:30.989 --> 00:57:34.030
like again we feel even just talking to each

00:57:34.030 --> 00:57:37.590
other in that format we feel supported and then

00:57:37.590 --> 00:57:39.630
to be able to kind of offer that to others who

00:57:39.630 --> 00:57:42.710
are like wow i don't have anyone to talk to about

00:57:42.710 --> 00:57:45.389
this and and now i'm hearing people talk about

00:57:45.389 --> 00:57:49.409
this and it's resonating with me so we're you

00:57:49.409 --> 00:57:53.300
know We're starting a podcast. So get ready.

00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.179
And I'm totally going to be coming to you to

00:57:56.179 --> 00:58:01.139
ask how to do it. You are welcome. And I am looking

00:58:01.139 --> 00:58:04.340
forward to this podcast because I'm, I'm sure

00:58:04.340 --> 00:58:07.900
this will be an interesting, you know, you'll

00:58:07.900 --> 00:58:10.920
have some interesting conversations. Like I'm

00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:15.739
exciting. I excited for this because And I hate

00:58:15.739 --> 00:58:18.179
to do this, but if I look at, you know, most

00:58:18.179 --> 00:58:20.840
vegan animal rights podcasts out there, it's

00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:23.739
not that interesting. It's not that daring. It's,

00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:26.960
it's always the same, the same question, not

00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:29.719
the same questions with an S the same question,

00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:35.690
which is how did you become vegan? that there's

00:58:35.690 --> 00:58:39.150
this all very uninteresting story about, you

00:58:39.150 --> 00:58:43.530
know, coming, finding footage or, you know, you,

00:58:43.730 --> 00:58:45.849
yeah, you, you've listened to one. You've listened

00:58:45.849 --> 00:58:49.030
to all. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's a lot. I mean,

00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:53.159
It's what is the word saturated right? Like I

00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:55.360
mean, I think just in general the podcast industry

00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:58.679
is is pretty saturated But we feel we feel good

00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:01.320
about this because this doesn't exist. I mean,

00:59:01.420 --> 00:59:04.079
that's the whole thing justify didn't exist Right,

00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.179
like we're the only organization in the world

00:59:07.179 --> 00:59:10.039
doing what we're doing. And so that gives us

00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:15.719
hope that like we can then you know help bring

00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:18.519
about positive change because it's not just kind

00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:22.570
of Another organization doing kind of the same

00:59:22.570 --> 00:59:24.809
thing and not to say we don't need multiple organizations

00:59:24.809 --> 00:59:28.449
working on different issues but. Yeah I think

00:59:28.449 --> 00:59:32.469
it's like if we if we want to to be to be heard

00:59:32.469 --> 00:59:36.590
we need to stand out and. As you said, it's like

00:59:36.590 --> 00:59:39.909
it's these days. It's hard to stand out social

00:59:39.909 --> 00:59:43.670
media. Social media itself is saturated. It's

00:59:43.670 --> 00:59:46.690
it's hard to like show that you're unique and

00:59:46.690 --> 00:59:51.050
worth listening to. And I feel that every day.

00:59:51.929 --> 00:59:58.269
So I agree. But, you know, most podcasts don't

00:59:58.269 --> 01:00:07.159
last past the fifth episode. People are just

01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:08.860
sort of like, this seemed like a good idea at

01:00:08.860 --> 01:00:14.099
the time. And I hope this doesn't happen with

01:00:14.099 --> 01:00:17.800
you. If you feel like it will happen, just reach

01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:21.719
out to me. I've seen so many animal rights podcasts,

01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:27.159
just go reach the eighth episode and then just

01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:29.659
disappear from the face of the earth like they

01:00:29.659 --> 01:00:34.500
never existed. Yeah, I know I you know, we're

01:00:34.570 --> 01:00:37.349
We're in this for the long game. I'm I'm excited.

01:00:37.349 --> 01:00:39.929
We've got a lot of good ideas for this this I

01:00:39.929 --> 01:00:42.409
mean I just this is this is the thing every time

01:00:42.409 --> 01:00:45.789
I'm on a podcast or like doing some sort of uh

01:00:45.789 --> 01:00:47.989
presentation like I realized there's so much

01:00:47.989 --> 01:00:51.150
more to talk about than there's time for right

01:00:51.150 --> 01:00:53.750
and so I'm like this is this is what the podcast

01:00:53.750 --> 01:00:56.869
is for it's like there's always so much more

01:00:56.869 --> 01:00:59.329
we can dive into especially as people who have

01:00:59.329 --> 01:01:03.110
been in this industry because you just don't

01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:06.780
You don't realize how much people don't know

01:01:06.780 --> 01:01:09.480
and people don't know how much they don't know

01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:11.860
about this industry. I mean, we could we could

01:01:11.860 --> 01:01:15.199
focus an entire episode just on like what it

01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:19.400
was like to learn how to restrain an animal in

01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:21.960
the lab and what that experience. And by whole

01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:23.980
episode, I mean, there could be like multiple

01:01:23.980 --> 01:01:27.179
episodes, right? Like, and that's just like this

01:01:27.179 --> 01:01:31.159
this tiny piece. of what was asked of us, of

01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:35.440
what we did, of what we were complicit in. And

01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:41.099
so I think the podcast is going to be a good

01:01:41.099 --> 01:01:45.179
thing for Justify. I mean, you just need to choose

01:01:45.179 --> 01:01:51.019
a great name. We're working on that. We've got

01:01:51.019 --> 01:01:56.000
a few ideas. I was thinking, I was sharing with

01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:59.639
some people that uh if it was not the vegan report

01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:02.900
i would have called this podcast veganism after

01:02:02.900 --> 01:02:07.559
dark something like that yeah yeah although wait

01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:11.699
wasn't that vegan after dark didn't like sky

01:02:11.699 --> 01:02:15.739
wasn't sky's called that at some point i thought

01:02:15.739 --> 01:02:19.539
do you know sky yes didn't wasn't his originally

01:02:19.539 --> 01:02:22.559
called vegan after dark or something was called

01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:29.590
vegan after dark maybe Yeah, was it yeah, he

01:02:29.590 --> 01:02:32.210
was vegan. Yeah, he has this like vegan after

01:02:32.210 --> 01:02:36.989
dark thing what? Yeah, this proves our origin

01:02:36.989 --> 01:02:42.769
unoriginal This proves I am unoriginal Yes, no

01:02:42.769 --> 01:02:44.929
vegan after dark. I mean, I think that maybe

01:02:44.929 --> 01:02:47.090
he's using different names now because him and

01:02:47.090 --> 01:02:50.610
dr. Crystal Heath are doing Doing stuff together.

01:02:50.610 --> 01:02:53.469
And so I think that Like, I don't or maybe he's

01:02:53.469 --> 01:02:55.829
still doing vegan after dark as well. I'm not

01:02:55.829 --> 01:02:59.750
honestly sure. But I know he is. He has that

01:02:59.750 --> 01:03:03.670
coined for some of his content. You know, what's

01:03:03.670 --> 01:03:07.510
possible is that I came across his podcast and

01:03:07.510 --> 01:03:11.250
I just, you know, unconsciously took a liking

01:03:11.250 --> 01:03:16.090
for his podcast and attributed that to me. I

01:03:16.090 --> 01:03:20.769
read about this with literary agents and editors

01:03:20.769 --> 01:03:24.269
and they say, I come across the plot of Harry

01:03:24.269 --> 01:03:29.070
Potter like a hundred times a year. Wow. People

01:03:29.070 --> 01:03:31.429
think that they're original. Yeah, they're like,

01:03:31.630 --> 01:03:33.150
yeah, I've come up with something new and it's

01:03:33.150 --> 01:03:37.969
like, no, still. That's Harry Potter. Just Harry

01:03:37.969 --> 01:03:43.389
Potter revised. That's so funny. Okay, Maddie.

01:03:44.730 --> 01:03:50.530
Well, now you know. Now I know, yes. Did you

01:03:50.530 --> 01:03:52.869
want to add something before we end this conversation?

01:03:53.489 --> 01:03:55.889
Because we're in the middle of a heat wave. I

01:03:55.889 --> 01:03:58.929
stopped the AC. And I am officially profusely

01:03:58.929 --> 01:04:02.110
sweating. Well, you're comfortably in a sweatshirt.

01:04:03.309 --> 01:04:07.880
I'm looking red. To the record, we don't even

01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:12.619
have air conditioning here. I mean, some places

01:04:12.619 --> 01:04:15.619
do, but most of them still don't in the like

01:04:15.619 --> 01:04:18.239
immediate Bay Area because, you know, Oakland,

01:04:18.260 --> 01:04:20.960
Berkeley, it's just historically has never gotten

01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:26.480
that hot. But yeah, anyway, do I have anything

01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:30.219
to wrap up with? It's been a pleasure as usual.

01:04:31.260 --> 01:04:35.960
Always is. I would say If anyone has questions,

01:04:36.219 --> 01:04:40.119
wants to reach out, definitely do. Please follow

01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:43.980
and subscribe and all of those fun things to

01:04:43.980 --> 01:04:48.539
Justify's work. On social media, we are at When

01:04:48.539 --> 01:04:54.219
We Justify, and our website's WhenWeJustify .org.

01:04:54.719 --> 01:04:58.079
I'm also on social media as Madeline Krasnow,

01:04:58.300 --> 01:05:02.840
and I just appreciate everyone listening to this.

01:05:03.309 --> 01:05:08.630
stream of consciousness. Great parting words.

01:05:09.590 --> 01:05:12.210
If you have already subscribed, create a fake

01:05:12.210 --> 01:05:16.050
account and just subscribe to that account too.

01:05:16.869 --> 01:05:20.650
Do it again. Just do it again with other accounts

01:05:20.650 --> 01:05:27.389
like. Brainstorm. You know it's possible now.

01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:33.840
That was very funny. Maddie, thank you so much.

01:05:34.219 --> 01:05:36.619
Yes, this was a very pleasant conversation and

01:05:36.619 --> 01:05:43.420
I learned a lot. I hope people did too. Thank

01:05:43.420 --> 01:05:46.800
you so much for your great pioneering work and

01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:51.559
looking forward to your podcast. Yes, yes. Can't

01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:55.039
wait. It's been a pleasure. Thank you everyone

01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:58.139
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this

01:05:58.139 --> 01:06:01.019
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage

01:06:01.019 --> 01:06:05.000
more people to take action. Again, thank you

01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:08.000
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday

01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:09.460
for a new episode.