WEBVTT 00:00:01.680 --> 00:00:05.120 You are listening to The Vegan Report. My name 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.539 is Ryan and 32 years have passed since the release 00:00:09.539 --> 00:00:13.779 of the first Jurassic Park movie, now a cinema 00:00:13.779 --> 00:00:17.780 classic. For today's episode, we are revisiting 00:00:17.780 --> 00:00:20.679 their original franchise through an animal rights 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:24.440 perspective. As the multi -billion dollar biotech 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:28.160 firm Colossal is seriously considering opening 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.119 its own Jurassic Park, let's examine closely 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:36.859 the impact and legacy of those 90s era movies. 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:41.439 To discuss this topic, I have with me Alex Ventimiglia 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.920 Sanchez, a professor of the English and Film 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.740 Studies Department of the University of Alberta. 00:00:48.700 --> 00:00:51.740 He is also part of the team behind the amazing 00:00:51.740 --> 00:00:56.119 egg -truth .com initiative. Among other things, 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:01.149 I asked Alex Why does our sense of wonderment 00:01:01.149 --> 00:01:05.049 towards animals makes us want to abuse them? 00:01:05.930 --> 00:01:09.829 Do vegans deceptively make animals appear like 00:01:09.829 --> 00:01:13.989 children? Do we exploit animals because of our 00:01:13.989 --> 00:01:18.709 conditioning or human nature? Visit the episode's 00:01:18.709 --> 00:01:22.109 notes and connect with Alex and the egg -truth 00:01:22.109 --> 00:01:26.299 .com project. Also, a friendly reminder to share 00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:30.219 this episode with your people. Subscribe or follow 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:33.219 the show if you haven't. Leave a good review. 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:36.739 Your support of this independent podcast means 00:01:36.739 --> 00:01:46.760 the world to me. Thank you. It's really fun to 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:51.879 have a pretext to talk about dinosaurs and Jurassic 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:57.180 Park. I'm feeling nostalgic. This was a big theme 00:01:57.180 --> 00:02:01.200 of my childhood. Dinosaurs, I loved them. I collected 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:06.159 figurines of dinosaurs and I watched Jurassic 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.919 Park maybe a hundred times. I loved that movie 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:13.939 so much and I'm talking about the original version 00:02:13.939 --> 00:02:21.699 with the puppet dinosaurs, not the CGI versions. 00:02:22.219 --> 00:02:25.840 Do we share the same passion for dinosaurs? Yeah, 00:02:26.060 --> 00:02:29.180 yeah, absolutely. I think so first off, I agree 00:02:29.180 --> 00:02:31.659 any any opportunity to talk about dinosaurs in 00:02:31.659 --> 00:02:34.020 general, but but Jurassic Park in particular, 00:02:34.020 --> 00:02:37.960 I think is something that I treasure. I have 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:42.939 lots of memories that revolve around dinosaurs. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.360 It was like, as you said, it was an obsession 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:47.219 of mine when I was a kid. And actually, I didn't 00:02:47.219 --> 00:02:51.280 quite outgrow it until until recently, I think. 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:55.199 And that's only because life has thrown so many 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.879 things at me that I don't really have much time 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:02.740 to indulge in that. But when I was a kid, one 00:03:02.740 --> 00:03:06.599 of my first memories is actually watching, not 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:08.580 Jurassic Park, not originally, The Land Before 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:12.000 Time, over and over and over again. It was a 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:14.349 bit of an obsession of mine. There was a time 00:03:14.349 --> 00:03:19.370 when I got an eye injury and I was supposed to 00:03:19.370 --> 00:03:23.069 be mostly in bed for a couple of months. And 00:03:23.069 --> 00:03:24.830 then my parents got me that movie and I just 00:03:24.830 --> 00:03:26.550 ended up watching it over and over again. I think 00:03:26.550 --> 00:03:29.889 that's where my obsession came from. And then 00:03:29.889 --> 00:03:32.590 when Jurassic Park came out, I was a little kid, 00:03:32.590 --> 00:03:35.770 but I begged my parents to let me go watch it 00:03:35.770 --> 00:03:40.349 in the theater. And so they took me and now it's 00:03:40.349 --> 00:03:42.289 a bit of a tradition of mine now to watch it 00:03:42.289 --> 00:03:45.129 at least once a year. It's a movie that I keep 00:03:45.129 --> 00:03:48.030 coming back to and in many ways it informs what 00:03:48.030 --> 00:03:52.449 I do now. Maybe not in a very direct way, but 00:03:52.449 --> 00:03:57.490 I think it became sort of my inspiration for 00:03:57.490 --> 00:04:02.789 a lot of ideas that I think about and with even 00:04:02.789 --> 00:04:07.610 today in my research. I believe that we have 00:04:07.610 --> 00:04:13.750 not yet assimilated the fact that dinosaurs exist, 00:04:13.969 --> 00:04:20.689 have existed into our culture and cognition as 00:04:20.689 --> 00:04:24.629 a culture. And I think there should have been 00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:28.209 something like a philosophical reckoning with 00:04:28.209 --> 00:04:33.069 the first skeletons of dinosaurs, but nothing 00:04:33.069 --> 00:04:37.850 did not make people question core beliefs that 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:43.009 we have created as a species. Let me just add, 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:46.889 I feel the same way about Darwin. I feel like 00:04:46.889 --> 00:04:51.389 when he came up with theory of evolution and 00:04:51.389 --> 00:04:55.990 talked about how the difference between humanity 00:04:55.990 --> 00:04:58.870 and the rest of the animal kingdom is a difference 00:04:58.870 --> 00:05:03.290 of degrees and not of nature, this should have 00:05:03.290 --> 00:05:06.889 caused an earthquake philosophically for the 00:05:06.889 --> 00:05:10.029 entire species, but nothing, not even a ripple. 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:14.759 Yeah, you know, I would qualify that claim because 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:18.699 I think that in many ways it did, but perhaps 00:05:18.699 --> 00:05:23.600 not to the degree that you would expect. Because 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:25.420 I think part of what you're referencing right 00:05:25.420 --> 00:05:29.920 now is this popular understanding of the human 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.639 species as unique still. This human exceptionalism 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:37.019 that most people still subscribe to, even if 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:38.980 on the surface they might say, well, actually 00:05:38.980 --> 00:05:41.600 people are just animals at the end of the day. 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.000 They might say that on the surface, but I think 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:48.680 subconsciously or perhaps ideologically, they 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.939 still subscribe to this idea of humanity as being 00:05:52.939 --> 00:05:55.000 exceptional in some ways. So I think that's sort 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:57.180 of what you're referencing. But I think once 00:05:57.180 --> 00:06:00.519 you start digging a little deeper, you see that 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:05.180 actually both the theory and evolution and dinosaurs 00:06:05.180 --> 00:06:09.600 in particular, prehistory have actually shaped 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:16.220 pockets of society to an incredible extent. So 00:06:16.220 --> 00:06:19.620 just to give you an example, right? One of the 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:21.139 courses that I'm teaching, well, there's a course 00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:23.439 that I'm teaching right now. One of the texts 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:25.939 that I asked my students to read is Heart of 00:06:25.939 --> 00:06:29.420 Darkness by Joseph Conrad, right? And there are... 00:06:29.660 --> 00:06:33.839 many references in that book to the theory of 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:39.339 evolution. And the references are always made 00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:42.699 with an eye to how it informed scientific racism, 00:06:43.060 --> 00:06:46.800 right? So not all of the impact was good, obviously, 00:06:47.139 --> 00:06:50.279 right? I think people took Darwin's ideas and 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:54.439 drew some conclusions that are misinformed. But 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.139 it did shape a number of things or a number of 00:06:57.139 --> 00:06:59.839 historical developments to some extent, for example, 00:06:59.980 --> 00:07:03.060 colonialism, right? But it also shaped other 00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:07.540 things. So for instance, the way in which concepts 00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:11.139 from prehistory, paleontology, and particularly 00:07:11.139 --> 00:07:16.110 the concept of mass extinction. right? Which 00:07:16.110 --> 00:07:19.389 comes from deep time, which comes from paleontology, 00:07:19.569 --> 00:07:21.949 from our understanding of the earth now, as opposed 00:07:21.949 --> 00:07:24.069 to like 300 years ago when we still thought that 00:07:24.069 --> 00:07:25.949 maybe it was just a few thousand years old, right? 00:07:26.269 --> 00:07:29.449 So our understanding of deep time and the many 00:07:29.449 --> 00:07:35.790 prehistoric developments that led up to the origin 00:07:35.790 --> 00:07:39.389 of humankind and all that, I think that is something 00:07:39.389 --> 00:07:43.319 that again, perhaps only subconsciously and perhaps 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:45.399 only a few people are actively talking about 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:47.899 this, but it informs our understanding of today, 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:51.240 right? So now today we talk a lot about things 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.459 like global warming, for example, climate change, 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.360 right? And part of that conversation is the concept 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:00.279 of the sixth mass extinction, which is kind of 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.759 the focus of my research in some ways. And, you 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.540 know, mass extinctions are not, like that concept 00:08:07.540 --> 00:08:10.379 is not very old. It was first proposed in the 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:14.120 70s. And for a couple of decades, it was essentially 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:19.459 thought of as ridiculous. Because one of the 00:08:19.459 --> 00:08:21.759 things that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.379 proposed was that changes were gradual. They 00:08:24.379 --> 00:08:29.079 were slow. There were no catastrophes. And then 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:33.039 suddenly come the Alvarez's. So Walter Alvarez 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:36.220 and Luis Alvarez, based in California, they were 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:40.019 the ones who first identified or the first proposed 00:08:40.019 --> 00:08:45.259 the theory of mass extinction, or rather the 00:08:45.259 --> 00:08:47.580 first explained the extinction of the dinosaurs 00:08:47.580 --> 00:08:50.879 as possibly being the result of this asteroid 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.019 colliding. And they went around the world looking 00:08:53.019 --> 00:08:56.460 for evidence and they found it. And so I think 00:08:56.460 --> 00:09:00.200 with that comes this realization of just how 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.279 even the most powerful species or the most powerful 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.600 creatures on earth are vulnerable to extinction, 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.840 right? And I think that sort of fear haunts society 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.120 today because we're seeing catastrophic changes 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.139 around the world. And I think subconsciously 00:09:16.139 --> 00:09:18.120 perhaps, right? We're thinking, well, if it happened 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.080 to the dinosaurs, it could happen to us. And 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:24.899 that fear, that specific way of thinking about 00:09:24.899 --> 00:09:27.679 humanity and our destiny is part of Jurassic 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:30.580 Park, right? You might recall this scene. They're 00:09:30.580 --> 00:09:32.460 in the car, right? They're in the car and they're 00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:35.679 waiting for the T -Rex to show up. And they kind 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:38.779 of jokingly talk about how God creates dinosaur, 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.620 God kills dinosaurs, God creates people, people 00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:46.980 kill God. What is it? People create dinosaurs 00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:51.240 and then dinosaurs eat people, right? So they're 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:53.379 making explicit what is sort of implicit in the 00:09:53.379 --> 00:09:56.259 movie and also in... in evolutionary biology, 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:58.659 which is if it happened to the dinosaurs, it 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:02.039 can happen to us, right? So I think in that sense, 00:10:02.059 --> 00:10:05.879 it did make a fairly big splash, but it's not 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:10.879 perhaps the place or the credit that should be 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:13.960 given to biological sciences, evolutionary sciences, 00:10:14.059 --> 00:10:17.580 and paleontology is not given, right? And that's 00:10:17.580 --> 00:10:19.320 why perhaps you have this impression of it not 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.879 being all that prominent. But I think it's there. 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:28.330 It's just It's kind of sneaky, right? But it's 00:10:28.330 --> 00:10:31.350 there, I think. Before getting into the movie 00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:34.429 itself and the topic of dinosaurs, I just want 00:10:34.429 --> 00:10:37.149 to address the question of their appearance. 00:10:37.929 --> 00:10:41.470 So as a kid, I always imagined them as being 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:45.789 reptilian. And of course, I came across the articles 00:10:45.789 --> 00:10:49.210 talking about how, no, actually, T -rex might 00:10:49.210 --> 00:10:52.529 have had feathers and might have been those big 00:10:52.970 --> 00:10:57.090 chicken birds, you know. So what is your opinion 00:10:57.090 --> 00:11:01.210 on that? Or where is the science on that? I haven't, 00:11:01.210 --> 00:11:05.049 you know, checked. Did dinosaurs have feathers 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:11.049 or not? Oh, yeah, I think the evidence has definitely 00:11:11.049 --> 00:11:17.330 piled up on the side of dinosaurs being essentially 00:11:17.330 --> 00:11:22.830 birds. One of them, one of the One of the moments 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:28.210 that I remember most, I've been on earth since 00:11:28.210 --> 00:11:33.570 I was a kid, right? And so I collected National 00:11:33.570 --> 00:11:36.850 Geographic magazines from the time I was like 00:11:36.850 --> 00:11:39.570 10. I had a huge collection. I don't have it 00:11:39.570 --> 00:11:41.370 anymore, but at some point I had like volume 00:11:41.370 --> 00:11:43.990 for volume of National Geographic. And one of 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:47.629 my favorite volumes was the one that announced 00:11:47.629 --> 00:11:51.710 the first discovery of a fossilized dinosaur 00:11:51.710 --> 00:11:54.710 that was so well preserved that you could see 00:11:54.710 --> 00:11:57.149 the traces of feathers on its body, right? And 00:11:57.149 --> 00:12:00.909 how people were, scientists were debating, are 00:12:00.909 --> 00:12:03.570 these actually feathers or is it maybe like some 00:12:03.570 --> 00:12:06.769 other structure on their skin or perhaps underneath 00:12:06.769 --> 00:12:08.690 their skin that kind of looks like feathers, 00:12:08.690 --> 00:12:12.470 right? But then after that original discovery, 00:12:13.990 --> 00:12:17.220 but now paleontology works in a rather funny 00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:19.080 way, right? You have to know where to look, but 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.019 you can't know that in advance. So it was only 00:12:22.019 --> 00:12:24.320 once they realized where they could look for 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:27.100 fossils that preserved what you call integument, 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:29.480 right? The external structures of the animal. 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:31.940 Once they knew where to look, they started looking 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:34.080 there, right? And they started digging all over 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:37.139 the place. And by now, I think the last time 00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:39.399 I checked was a couple of years ago, so I'm sure 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:44.580 this is outdated, right? But at least 25 different 00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:51.039 species, many of them are known from many skeletons, 00:12:51.220 --> 00:12:54.039 not just one, right? Show distinct marks of feathers. 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.820 And what's interesting is that these species 00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:59.399 are not all that closely related, right? Some 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:04.080 of them are essentially just like little... chicken 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:05.980 -looking thingies, right? And then there are 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:08.299 some really big ones that are actually very closely 00:13:08.299 --> 00:13:11.440 related to T. rex, for example, right? And some 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.960 that are even related to Triceratops. So now 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.139 the question is not whether they had feathers, 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.460 but rather how feathered were they depending 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:22.480 on the species, right? So for example, the one 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.620 that looks more like Triceratops, it only really 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:27.460 has a few quails on its tail. So it might be 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:29.379 that it only had feathers in certain parts of 00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:32.080 its body, right? But there were others that were 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.799 essentially fully covered in feathers with like 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.559 these incredible looking wings that are indistinguishable 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:40.840 from the ones that birds have today, except that 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:42.980 you can still see their fingers poking out, right? 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.179 So, yeah, I mean, our perspective of them has 00:13:48.179 --> 00:13:50.779 changed. And with that, again, our understanding 00:13:50.779 --> 00:13:55.200 of what killed them, right? Or if something indeed 00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:58.100 could be said to have eliminated all dinosaurs, 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:00.779 because if we understand that birds are dinosaurs, 00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:04.539 then perhaps the story shouldn't be about how 00:14:04.539 --> 00:14:08.039 they went extinct, but rather how they had to 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.860 adapt, right? And I think in that, there is a 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:13.360 lesson for us, right? Because we've been doing 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.000 things a certain way for the better part of 500 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.240 years, and I don't think it's working, right? 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:23.799 So perhaps we shouldn't be striving to get ever 00:14:23.950 --> 00:14:26.529 bigger and greater and we shouldn't have this 00:14:26.529 --> 00:14:29.929 idea of like progress meaning bigger and grander 00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:35.049 things, but rather finding a way to persevere 00:14:35.049 --> 00:14:39.049 despite a changing landscape, right? I don't 00:14:39.049 --> 00:14:43.409 like the idea that dinosaurs had feathers. I 00:14:43.409 --> 00:14:46.389 really don't like that. It's the same. Can I 00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:49.230 ask you a question though? Because I think sometimes 00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:53.639 that is more the result of of people not liking 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:55.740 birds in general. Something that I've learned 00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:57.940 is that a lot of people are afraid of birds. 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.960 Would you say that that applies to you? Do they 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:04.759 make you uncomfortable? No, I have a couple of 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:10.879 birds, budgies that I take care of at home. I 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.679 see their personality and how smart they are, 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:18.879 and I have no difficulty imagining them being 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:23.529 dinosaurs. They could have been part of that 00:15:23.529 --> 00:15:27.269 Jurassic Park franchise. They're just villains. 00:15:27.730 --> 00:15:33.769 They really are. But yeah, it's weird how it 00:15:33.769 --> 00:15:38.389 becomes distasteful for us to imagine those dinosaurs 00:15:38.389 --> 00:15:42.169 as having feathers. It's like the Greek statues 00:15:42.169 --> 00:15:48.840 having colors. Yeah, that's a good analogy. I 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.799 think you get used to a certain mode of representation. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.679 And then when it changes, you don't like it. 00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:56.759 It's kind of like when people, as people get 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:01.000 older, they find contemporary music less and 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.460 less likable, right? Because it no longer resembles 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:06.059 what you experienced as a child. And I think 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:08.159 that's perhaps a part of it. I was resistant 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.879 too. Like the first time that these discoveries 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:16.450 kind of like became... the subject of popular 00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:18.350 culture, like through National Geographic, for 00:16:18.350 --> 00:16:21.710 example, or the first documentaries to show these 00:16:21.710 --> 00:16:24.850 CGI documentaries that show dinosaurs, right? 00:16:25.110 --> 00:16:26.970 I don't know if we're allowed to say brands, 00:16:27.049 --> 00:16:31.309 but there's a new one that came out, and they're 00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:33.690 covered in feathers. And I also thought, that 00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:38.789 doesn't feel right. So I know where you're coming 00:16:38.789 --> 00:16:43.169 from, but I do think that I prefer the other 00:16:43.169 --> 00:16:44.909 perspective that you offered, right? Looking 00:16:44.909 --> 00:16:47.649 at your birds, for example, your budgies and 00:16:47.649 --> 00:16:51.110 thinking, huh, that's something dinosaurs might 00:16:51.110 --> 00:16:55.990 have done, right? Here in Edmonton, recently 00:16:55.990 --> 00:17:02.590 there was a vote to choose the city's official 00:17:02.590 --> 00:17:06.170 bird, right? And everybody just kind of agreed 00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:08.529 that it had to be the magpie. There are magpies 00:17:08.529 --> 00:17:11.569 everywhere. This is magpie country. And they 00:17:11.569 --> 00:17:14.309 are vicious. They are some of the most vicious 00:17:14.309 --> 00:17:17.650 birds I've ever seen. And I've seen all kinds 00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:21.029 of birds in the wild. I once had the fortune 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:24.970 of seeing an osprey diving into, I think it was 00:17:24.970 --> 00:17:28.109 a river, and actually catching a fish and flying 00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:30.549 off with it. And that was incredible. But there 00:17:30.549 --> 00:17:34.079 is something about a gang of magpies piling up 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:38.019 on a rabbit that really feels prehistoric, right? 00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:41.460 I immediately picture Velociraptors on a Triceratops 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:43.579 or something, right? And it's crazy, because 00:17:43.579 --> 00:17:46.660 MacPies are not that big, right? And the Jackrabbits 00:17:46.660 --> 00:17:49.380 here, they're pretty big. They don't care. They 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:52.420 gang up on them. Alright, they pick them. I'm 00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:54.359 not sure they actually hunt them. I don't know 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.099 why they harass them So but they do and they're 00:17:57.099 --> 00:17:58.980 fearless, right? They actually gang up on my 00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.900 cat You would think a cat would you know would 00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:04.200 drive him away, but no they they they get together 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:07.650 They form these little packs And I swear it's 00:18:07.650 --> 00:18:10.170 just like that scene in Jurassic Park at the 00:18:10.170 --> 00:18:15.529 end, right? When the kids and the two paleontologists 00:18:15.529 --> 00:18:17.430 are together and the raptors are approaching, 00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:20.430 right? That's my cat's experience on an everyday 00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:23.349 basis. He's surrounded by magpies and he has 00:18:23.349 --> 00:18:25.369 nowhere to run. And he doesn't have a T -rex 00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:29.710 to save him. Yes, they're completely fearless. 00:18:30.509 --> 00:18:34.349 And there's also the fact that birds with their 00:18:34.349 --> 00:18:38.440 feathers I associate that with like grace and 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:42.220 there's something very artistic very you know 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:46.960 it's something that civilized that's something 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:52.180 very you know it's the um it's what you see on 00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:57.500 the um you know hats of nobles from you know 00:18:57.500 --> 00:19:02.000 the middle ages that kind of thing so the idea 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.049 of a bloodthirsty creature with feathers, you 00:19:06.049 --> 00:19:11.670 know, it's, it doesn't have that primitive trait 00:19:11.670 --> 00:19:15.309 that reptiles to, you know, you look at reptiles 00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:17.930 and you think, yeah, this is from another era. 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:22.569 Yeah, yeah, that is true. And I think, again, 00:19:22.630 --> 00:19:24.829 right, I think that's where a lot of that resistance 00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:28.529 comes from, because because I think there is 00:19:28.529 --> 00:19:33.490 something primeval about leathery scaly skin. 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:35.980 At least we perceive it that way. And you're 00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:38.559 right, feathers were traditionally associated 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.180 with the aristocracy, for example. But again, 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:46.259 I think it sort of depends on what your perception 00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:49.380 of birds is and how well -informed it is. And 00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:51.500 again, I remember this scene in Jurassic Park 00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:54.519 when Alan Grant, the paleontologist, is trying 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.220 to explain to this kid how vicious raptors were, 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.299 when he scares the crap out of that kid. And 00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:02.700 it all starts because the kid says, well, it 00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:04.859 doesn't look very scary. It's just like a turkey, 00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:09.940 right? And now when I go back and watch that 00:20:09.940 --> 00:20:11.819 scene, I think, well, that kid has never met 00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:14.519 a turkey because turkeys are vicious animals, 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.200 right? We think of them. Unfortunately, we associate 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.319 them with things like Thanksgiving dinner, right? 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:23.799 Because we've commodified them and we've exploited 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:28.059 them. And in that process, we've made them very 00:20:28.059 --> 00:20:34.220 tame. The more, the wilder turkeys, right? Not 00:20:34.220 --> 00:20:37.279 even necessarily just like wild turkeys, but 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.680 varieties of turkeys that have not been so thoroughly 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.619 domesticated. They're vicious animals and they're 00:20:42.619 --> 00:20:46.460 big, right? They're very big birds that because 00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:48.400 they're ground dwelling, they have to come up 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.019 with other kinds of defenses, right? They can't 00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:53.599 just stay cuff and fly. They do fly, but that's 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:56.960 a last resort, right? Their first resort is to 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.059 be intimidating. And so they puff up, they puff 00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:02.440 their feathers, they start making all these really 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.619 weird noises, and they'll charge at you. So again, 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:08.779 it sort of depends on how you look at birds and 00:21:08.779 --> 00:21:11.779 how you look at animals in general. There are 00:21:11.779 --> 00:21:14.119 things that we associate with animals that are 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.819 not necessarily true. And I think one of them 00:21:16.819 --> 00:21:20.779 is unfortunately because of them. long -standing 00:21:20.779 --> 00:21:22.759 commodification of certain body parts, certain 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.519 animal parts. We think of feathers as aristocratic 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.319 and fanciful, but in reality, you know, they 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.000 have a distinct evolutionary purpose, actually 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.799 multiple purposes, and one of them can be intimidation, 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.500 right? And I think there's something very scary 00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:40.259 about a bird that puffs up and starts making 00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:43.859 all these weird noises, right? Sometimes they 00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:46.359 hiss, right? Here we have like Canadian goose. 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:48.859 or Canada goose, I think is the right term, right? 00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:51.380 Canada goose are scary birds, right? And you 00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:52.940 look at it and it's like, it looks kind of cute. 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:55.700 It's just like a big duck, but they're vicious, 00:21:56.019 --> 00:21:57.799 right? They're vicious animals. And I think, 00:21:58.019 --> 00:21:59.920 you know, getting over some of those misconceptions 00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:03.220 might help you accept feathered dinosaurs, although 00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:07.059 maybe not, right? Yes. And that brings me to 00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:11.940 an iconic scene in Jurassic Park, which is the 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:17.660 raptors hunting those children. brother and sister 00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:23.640 in the kitchen. And what is the most frightening 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.759 in that scene is not so much their appearance, 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:31.059 which is frightening, but their intelligence. 00:22:31.339 --> 00:22:36.079 That's what the scene tells us. Those killing 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:43.000 machines, those really scary looking beasts are 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.980 intelligent. They understand that you're trying 00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:49.059 to run away and they can visualize and project 00:22:49.059 --> 00:22:53.559 and make plans to catch you. And that is the 00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:55.980 most, the scariest part. What do you make of 00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:58.859 that? First of all, is it even accurate that 00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:02.819 they had that degree of intelligence? And then 00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:07.460 what do you make of how they highlight the intelligence 00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:11.099 as being the scary part? Yeah, you know, that's 00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.799 a really good question. It's something that I 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:16.920 hoped that we could discuss today because I think, 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:21.759 I cannot speak to the accuracy of it because 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:24.099 I'm also, first off, I'm not a paleontologist, 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.940 right? I study these things from a cultural perspective. 00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:33.220 I know that in terms of how paleontologists gauge 00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:36.069 the intelligence of an animal, usually they go, 00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:38.829 or the traditional method was not all that different 00:23:38.829 --> 00:23:41.170 from what zoologists have traditionally done, 00:23:41.309 --> 00:23:44.029 which is they look at a skull, they look at the 00:23:44.029 --> 00:23:46.289 brain cavity in that skull, and they say, well, 00:23:46.349 --> 00:23:48.509 you know, this one's bigger than the other, presumably 00:23:48.509 --> 00:23:50.869 this animal is smarter than the other, right? 00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:54.349 Has more cognitive abilities in some ways. And 00:23:54.349 --> 00:24:00.039 so when that scene was made and I've actually 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:03.799 spoken to Jack Horner, who was the paleontological 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.119 advisor for Jurassic Park. So when they made 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.559 that scene, what they wanted to emphasize is 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:16.859 that, because these animals are big, some of 00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:19.680 these Drameosaurus, the raptors, some of the 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:21.680 raptors were as big as the ones portrayed in 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:25.420 Jurassic Park, they had big brains. Like Drameosaurus 00:24:25.420 --> 00:24:29.450 as a whole family was, they generally had big 00:24:29.450 --> 00:24:32.150 brain cavities in their skulls, and so people 00:24:32.150 --> 00:24:34.710 or paleontologists assumed that they were smarter 00:24:34.710 --> 00:24:38.829 than most dinosaurs, and this particular species 00:24:38.829 --> 00:24:41.970 that was as big as a human did have a fairly 00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:45.250 big brain, right? So the assumption was, well, 00:24:45.329 --> 00:24:47.130 okay, so if it has a brain as big as that of 00:24:47.130 --> 00:24:49.430 a chimp, then perhaps it's as smart as a chimp, 00:24:49.470 --> 00:24:52.390 right? Now, there was a lot of pushback against 00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:54.349 that from the paleontological community saying 00:24:54.349 --> 00:24:57.089 that, well, you know, these are not... Chimps 00:24:57.089 --> 00:24:59.289 these are not apes these are not mammals these 00:24:59.289 --> 00:25:01.809 are at the time right they were still seen as 00:25:01.809 --> 00:25:04.210 primarily reptilian even though already there 00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:06.089 are some hints of the fact that they are birds 00:25:06.089 --> 00:25:09.089 in Jurassic Park right. So they thought well 00:25:09.089 --> 00:25:12.549 it might have had a big brain but so do turtles 00:25:12.549 --> 00:25:14.690 like some leatherback turtles have fairly big 00:25:14.690 --> 00:25:16.970 brains and they're not particularly smart right. 00:25:17.970 --> 00:25:19.630 Alright so now that our understanding of them 00:25:19.630 --> 00:25:22.069 has changed and now we see them more as birds 00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:26.000 I think. the trajectory has sort of shifted, 00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:30.319 right? In the sense that, well, recognizing that 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.900 there are birds and perhaps puts them, you know, 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:36.200 you can look at a raptor skull and then perhaps 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.380 a bird that's of similar size, like say, I don't 00:25:39.380 --> 00:25:41.319 know, an ostrich maybe, right? Although I think 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.779 ostriches have fairly small heads. And you can 00:25:43.779 --> 00:25:45.680 think, well, perhaps it was as smart as an ostrich, 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:47.599 right? Or perhaps a little smarter than that. 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:51.640 But even that is changing now because now we 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:54.119 know that when it comes to avian birds or the 00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:58.480 birds of brains, size doesn't matter as much 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:01.559 as we used to think, right? You have budgies, 00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:06.160 so you have essentially parrots, right? Parrots 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.200 as a whole don't have particularly big brains, 00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:14.059 but they're insanely smart. Some species more 00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:16.279 than others, traditionally experiments on avian 00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:18.339 intelligence have been done with African gray 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:21.000 parrots, which are like these fairly big sized 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.940 gray parrots from Central Africa, right? And 00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:28.140 I mean, they're incredibly smart, right? They 00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:32.130 can figure out puzzles, they can... some studies 00:26:32.130 --> 00:26:34.349 suggest that they do actually understand human 00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:36.269 speech. Like they understand the correlation 00:26:36.269 --> 00:26:38.930 between sound and meaning, right? And so you 00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:41.289 can teach them basic grammatical constructs to 00:26:41.289 --> 00:26:43.210 communicate and they seem to do a very good job 00:26:43.210 --> 00:26:47.769 at it, right? So if a bird that's the size of 00:26:47.769 --> 00:26:50.990 a crow, right, is potentially that smart with 00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:54.970 a brain that's not that big, how smart could 00:26:54.970 --> 00:26:57.190 dinosaurs have been? Who knows, right? Because 00:26:57.190 --> 00:27:00.390 again, other other birds that perhaps behave 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.549 more like a raptor would, like magpies, crows, 00:27:03.809 --> 00:27:06.910 ravens, right? Corvids are now understood as 00:27:06.910 --> 00:27:10.450 perhaps even smarter than parrots. And again, 00:27:10.789 --> 00:27:14.390 brains that are not that big, and still they 00:27:14.390 --> 00:27:18.349 have cognitive abilities that we now think are 00:27:18.349 --> 00:27:23.329 at least as powerful as those of great apes, 00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:25.920 right? And there is a big difference between 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.759 a chimp, which is the size of a person, essentially, 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.380 and a raven, which is no bigger than a cat with 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.519 a brain that's no bigger than a cat's, but that 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.000 seems to be as intelligent as great apes. So 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.119 brain size, that is to say, doesn't really seem 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.660 to matter when it comes to birds. It's more about 00:27:42.660 --> 00:27:46.059 the wiring of the brain and how densely packed 00:27:46.059 --> 00:27:50.920 their neurons are. So it is entirely possible. 00:27:51.549 --> 00:27:54.130 Not to say that that is accurate, but I think 00:27:54.130 --> 00:27:58.089 it is entirely possible that large predatory 00:27:58.089 --> 00:28:00.490 dinosaurs in that family, the Dromaeosaurs, the 00:28:00.490 --> 00:28:04.529 Trudonids, the Raptors, may have been as intelligent 00:28:04.529 --> 00:28:06.990 as they are depicted. Of course, this is all 00:28:06.990 --> 00:28:09.210 conjecture and it's impossible to figure out, 00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:11.269 but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility. 00:28:11.849 --> 00:28:14.369 Because if we now understand that birds like 00:28:14.369 --> 00:28:17.029 parrots and crows and ravens are as smart as 00:28:17.029 --> 00:28:20.599 a five -year -old, but... but with predatory 00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:23.579 instincts, who knows what they could have accomplished, 00:28:23.740 --> 00:28:26.460 right? I mean, I don't know if you've been around 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:28.299 a lot of kids in your life, like if you have 00:28:28.299 --> 00:28:30.200 nephews or kids or whatever, right? But five 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.440 -year -olds are smart and they don't have a moral 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:36.400 compass, so they're quite predatory. So imagine 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.000 a pack of creatures that are as big as a human, 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.390 but with predatory instincts. no not necessarily 00:28:44.390 --> 00:28:47.410 a moral compass and you know and and as intelligent 00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:49.750 as that and I think you know what what you see 00:28:49.750 --> 00:28:53.690 in that scene right uh coordinated behavior um 00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:57.829 you know a theory of mind right because I think 00:28:57.829 --> 00:28:59.630 that's perhaps one of the main things that I 00:28:59.630 --> 00:29:01.390 identify in those depictions of the raptors that 00:29:01.390 --> 00:29:03.069 they have a theory of mind that they understand 00:29:03.069 --> 00:29:05.250 what others are thinking right we know that birds 00:29:05.250 --> 00:29:08.119 can do that to some extent now so Is it possible 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:10.880 i think it's entirely possible do we know no 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.220 and we can't find out right but but i think it's 00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:19.920 fun to think about. But why is it scary because 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.859 we're used to being top dog right i think and 00:29:23.859 --> 00:29:27.339 again i return to that scene with the kid and 00:29:27.339 --> 00:29:31.200 actually later scenes. That sort of suggest how 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.460 uncomfortable we are with we are with them. with 00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:37.859 predation once the tables are turned. I think, 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:44.920 unfortunately, we have become accustomed to this 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.440 idea of us being the undisputed top of the food 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.259 chain or however you want to understand it. And 00:29:51.259 --> 00:29:55.490 that's, again, that's also where the assumption 00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:57.549 that we can treat animals the way that we do 00:29:57.549 --> 00:30:00.029 in Western societies comes from, right? If we're 00:30:00.029 --> 00:30:01.529 a tough dog, we can do whatever we want because 00:30:01.529 --> 00:30:03.529 we want the evolutionary race or whatever, right? 00:30:04.869 --> 00:30:07.869 But in scenes like those in Jurassic Park, there 00:30:07.869 --> 00:30:10.130 are two things going on. So one is that these 00:30:10.130 --> 00:30:12.349 were actual animals that at some point existed, 00:30:12.349 --> 00:30:15.970 right? And that we're at some point as dominant 00:30:15.970 --> 00:30:20.309 as we are today. And the other is that when you 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.240 put us face to face without all of our technological 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.019 barriers, we would lose. We would be the prey. 00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:29.059 And that makes us deeply uncomfortable because 00:30:29.059 --> 00:30:31.079 that is not something we've experienced for 10 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:35.140 ,000 years now. So I think that's part of it. 00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:38.299 That's a big part of it, if you ask me. And later 00:30:38.299 --> 00:30:40.700 in the movie there, there are some references 00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:45.339 to how that turning of the tables makes you reconsider 00:30:45.339 --> 00:30:48.680 some choices. I go back to the scene that happens 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:54.029 right after right after they witness how they 00:30:54.029 --> 00:30:55.450 feed the raptors. I don't know if you remember, 00:30:55.829 --> 00:30:58.069 they have this big cow, right? And they lower 00:30:58.069 --> 00:31:00.450 it into the pen and then they don't even show 00:31:00.450 --> 00:31:02.990 it, you just hear it, right? And you see their 00:31:02.990 --> 00:31:06.130 facial expressions and the scene then cuts to 00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:10.390 them having lunch and they get served fish, I 00:31:10.390 --> 00:31:12.710 believe, or some sort of meat. right? And they 00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:15.490 can't stomach it anymore, right? Because they 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:18.269 realize what, well, I think my understanding 00:31:18.269 --> 00:31:20.890 of that scene is not only that they realize that 00:31:20.890 --> 00:31:22.569 they're essentially doing the same thing as they're 00:31:22.569 --> 00:31:25.890 after us, but also I think if there is perhaps 00:31:25.890 --> 00:31:28.130 a bit of empathy on their faces for the cow, 00:31:28.470 --> 00:31:30.450 right? How is what they're doing any different, 00:31:30.609 --> 00:31:32.369 right? And then how is what the dinosaurs do 00:31:32.369 --> 00:31:35.170 to them later on any different? So I think there 00:31:35.170 --> 00:31:38.519 are some There are instances in the film where 00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:41.480 it does kind of challenge some philosophical 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:43.400 assumptions that we make on an everyday basis 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:46.720 about our position within the natural world and 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.779 also our treatment of other species. In the movie 00:31:50.779 --> 00:31:54.700 where they rescue the boy from that dinosaur 00:31:54.700 --> 00:32:02.359 island, there's this scene where they're stuck 00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:07.269 in that cage for flying dinosaurs. And in that 00:32:07.269 --> 00:32:11.670 scene, it is highlighted how flying dinosaurs 00:32:11.670 --> 00:32:18.210 are just those scary creatures, truly. But then 00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:22.029 at the end of the movie, they are in a plane 00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:27.009 or a helicopter, I don't remember, leaving for 00:32:27.009 --> 00:32:30.390 good the island. And then they see a pack of 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:36.970 those flying dinosaurs in the horizon. And the 00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:41.970 whole scene is made to symbolize hope around 00:32:41.970 --> 00:32:45.829 those flying dinosaurs, flying in the horizon. 00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:50.970 And it feels like a moment of hope or dreamy 00:32:50.970 --> 00:32:56.369 moment. And I kept thinking, they should have 00:32:56.369 --> 00:33:01.130 been panicking from looking at that pack of flying 00:33:01.130 --> 00:33:06.029 dinosaurs escaping the island. What do you make 00:33:06.029 --> 00:33:09.630 of that scene? Why did they coded the scene as, 00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:14.190 you know, something hopeful? Yeah. So the first 00:33:14.190 --> 00:33:16.089 thing that I would say is the third movie is 00:33:16.089 --> 00:33:20.009 full of questionable decisions, right? So perhaps 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:23.250 perhaps part of it is just the fact that that 00:33:23.250 --> 00:33:27.930 movie was not that well thought out. But, you 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:29.980 know, let's give them the benefit of the doubt 00:33:29.980 --> 00:33:32.200 and assume that they were trying to suggest something, 00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:34.539 right? Which is often the case in films, right? 00:33:34.539 --> 00:33:37.880 There's some sort of message. There's a point 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.900 to everything that happens. And I think one way 00:33:40.900 --> 00:33:45.000 of understanding that may have to do with the 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.700 question of captivity, right? Which is also implicit 00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:53.259 in the first movie. So, and actually much more 00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:56.259 implicit in the book, but let us not speak of 00:33:56.259 --> 00:34:05.460 the book. So one of my favorite books, and I 00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:08.340 read it only recently, so it's titled Fear of 00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:12.280 the Animal Planet by Jason Prible. I don't know 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:14.760 if you've ever heard of it. So Fear of the Animal 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:19.079 Planet is this attempt to bring out this hidden 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:23.199 history of animal resistance, right? And what 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.769 he means by that is that There are many instances 00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:30.070 throughout history where either individual animals 00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:32.849 or packs of animals or groups of animals seem 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:35.690 to have come to this sort of breaking point, 00:34:35.690 --> 00:34:42.090 right? Where they push back against what could 00:34:42.090 --> 00:34:44.130 be characterized as some form of oppression, 00:34:44.329 --> 00:34:48.389 right? To give you an example, you might recall 00:34:48.389 --> 00:34:52.139 the film Blackfish. about Tillicum, about the 00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:54.059 orca that was in captivity for so many years 00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:58.619 in horrible conditions. And it became murderous. 00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:01.320 I think that's the way it is described in the 00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:05.199 documentary. And the implication there is that 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:09.059 that sort of behavior was a consequence of the 00:35:09.059 --> 00:35:12.190 way that it was treated. Now, if you look at 00:35:12.190 --> 00:35:15.369 Jurassic Park and its portrayal of some of the 00:35:15.369 --> 00:35:17.110 animals, admittedly not all of them, and I think, 00:35:17.150 --> 00:35:18.909 again, this has something to do with the fact 00:35:18.909 --> 00:35:20.409 that at the end of the day, it is a Hollywood 00:35:20.409 --> 00:35:24.610 movie, so it has to just be entertaining. But 00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:27.429 let's focus on the scene that you brought up. 00:35:28.469 --> 00:35:33.949 I mean, the animals in that scene, the flying 00:35:33.949 --> 00:35:38.050 pterosaurs, they... They are amongst the last 00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:40.630 creatures in captivity on that island, right? 00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:44.590 They're still in that cage. And animals that 00:35:44.590 --> 00:35:47.510 are incarcerated like that are usually fiercely 00:35:47.510 --> 00:35:51.829 territorial, right? Because, well, their territory 00:35:51.829 --> 00:35:54.050 is tiny. They don't have a lot. And so they're 00:35:54.050 --> 00:35:57.130 not going to tolerate any other creature that 00:35:57.130 --> 00:35:59.230 might compete with them for the very limited 00:35:59.230 --> 00:36:04.320 space and resources that they already have. At 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.320 the end of the movie, they escaped partly because 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:08.900 the people that went through there left the gate 00:36:08.900 --> 00:36:11.300 open, I think is what happens, right? And so 00:36:11.300 --> 00:36:14.199 they escape and they fly off. I think it would 00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:17.559 be fairly safe to assume, right? That just like 00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:22.099 a rehabilitated tiger, right? Maybe highly aggressive 00:36:22.099 --> 00:36:25.159 in the cage, but won't necessarily go out and 00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:27.179 try to kill people when it's released back into 00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:31.420 the wild, right? An animal like this, a pterosaur. 00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:35.420 regardless of how big it is, right? If it has 00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:40.579 a certain innate behavior, like pterosaurs who 00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:42.699 are most likely fish eaters, at least that the 00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:44.619 species depicted there are most likely fed on 00:36:44.619 --> 00:36:47.900 fish or carcasses, right? And it's no longer 00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:51.019 in this situation in which it has to be highly 00:36:51.019 --> 00:36:54.360 aggressive. Then I think perhaps you can assume 00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.699 that it's not going to be that aggressive once 00:36:56.699 --> 00:36:58.639 it's released back into the wild, right? That 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.380 it will hopefully I think that's perhaps where 00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:04.099 the hope comes from, that it will revert back 00:37:04.099 --> 00:37:06.340 to its more quote unquote natural behavior, which 00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:09.619 is not as aggressive as it is in a cage, right? 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:12.860 That's something that I've, I think a lot of 00:37:12.860 --> 00:37:15.760 people have experienced this to some degree in 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.719 zoos, right? When they go to the aviaries, like 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:21.900 the one depicted in Jurassic Park 3 and in the 00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:24.460 book, you go to an aviary and the birds there, 00:37:24.750 --> 00:37:27.369 are all over you, right? They flutter all around 00:37:27.369 --> 00:37:29.590 you, and that is just a consequence of their 00:37:29.590 --> 00:37:32.769 very limited space, right? Birds in the wild 00:37:32.769 --> 00:37:35.909 generally don't fly at you, generally. There 00:37:35.909 --> 00:37:37.710 are exceptions, but generally speaking, birds 00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:39.670 are not going to fly at you in the wild, but 00:37:39.670 --> 00:37:42.650 when they're in a confined space competing for 00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:45.369 resources on an everyday basis, and they don't 00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:48.750 get to engage in the sort of behavior they would 00:37:48.750 --> 00:37:52.210 when they're free, then I think that's kind of 00:37:52.210 --> 00:37:55.179 what happens, right? So yeah, that's perhaps 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:56.940 the way that I would read it. And this is something 00:37:56.940 --> 00:38:00.500 I used to teach Jurassic Park as part of my introductory 00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:03.460 courses to critical analysis. And one thing that 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:06.219 I always brought up is the fact that at the end 00:38:06.219 --> 00:38:09.719 of the day, right, Jurassic Park is a zoo. And 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.179 so I think a lot of what happens in that film 00:38:12.179 --> 00:38:15.480 can be thought of as commentary to the way that 00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:18.739 The kind of behavior that that that people that 00:38:18.739 --> 00:38:20.860 the industrialists and the capitalists and that 00:38:20.860 --> 00:38:22.719 film engage in which is the commodification of 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:26.300 life forms and such it's a direct critique of 00:38:26.300 --> 00:38:30.239 Zoos, right? Um, so that's perhaps one way to 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:32.519 think about it that perhaps the hope is not, 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.599 you know People hope but hope for the animals 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:41.500 to find a better life, right? That's an interesting 00:38:41.500 --> 00:38:45.230 point you're bringing up and I want to get back 00:38:45.230 --> 00:38:49.909 to it. But first, since starting this conversation, 00:38:50.190 --> 00:38:55.269 we have been pretty, I guess the word is direct 00:38:55.269 --> 00:38:59.590 and honest about animal behaviors. Something 00:38:59.590 --> 00:39:05.369 I don't see very often with, you know, communication 00:39:05.369 --> 00:39:11.489 around animals and veganism and the type of stuff 00:39:11.789 --> 00:39:15.710 activists say to the public so for instance they 00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:19.409 will highlight how chickens are incredibly smart 00:39:19.409 --> 00:39:22.650 they're so smart they can do this and that and 00:39:22.650 --> 00:39:26.090 they're also very cute and but of course if you 00:39:26.090 --> 00:39:29.789 ever had chickens you know that it's not the 00:39:29.789 --> 00:39:35.030 whole story and there's this tendency for activists 00:39:35.030 --> 00:39:39.840 to just exaggerate reality to make animals into 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:45.639 a cuter, smarter version than what they really 00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:51.880 are. What do you make of that manipulation of 00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:56.099 how we see animals? Yeah, that's a really good 00:39:56.099 --> 00:40:02.260 question. I think with most of the conversations 00:40:02.260 --> 00:40:06.030 that go around or that have really on any topic, 00:40:06.130 --> 00:40:09.449 but in regards to animals, animal liberation, 00:40:09.809 --> 00:40:13.730 animal rights, and just our understanding of 00:40:13.730 --> 00:40:15.969 our relationship with animals, I think there 00:40:15.969 --> 00:40:20.590 are multiple sides to the story. The ones that 00:40:20.590 --> 00:40:28.030 come to mind are... Well, there's... What I would 00:40:28.030 --> 00:40:29.969 understand is two sides of a spectrum, right? 00:40:30.190 --> 00:40:33.989 So on the one hand, it's the... the utilitarian 00:40:33.989 --> 00:40:39.090 activist perspective of this, which is we understand 00:40:39.090 --> 00:40:42.489 what people find appealing. We've known this 00:40:42.489 --> 00:40:47.110 for a while. If for now the reason that we see 00:40:47.110 --> 00:40:49.389 it in the domestication of certain animals, we 00:40:49.389 --> 00:40:52.409 seem to find certain features and certain characteristics 00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:55.329 quite endearing. Amongst them, of course, is 00:40:55.329 --> 00:40:58.070 intelligence. We do value intelligence above 00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:01.829 all else because of, you may call it narcissism. 00:41:02.219 --> 00:41:05.380 But it's because that's what we have. We as a 00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:08.739 species became this hegemonic, this prominent, 00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:11.420 because of our intelligence, not because we're 00:41:11.420 --> 00:41:14.619 faster or stronger or whatever. We use that different 00:41:14.619 --> 00:41:18.699 kind of scale. And so we value when we recognize 00:41:18.699 --> 00:41:21.579 that skill in other creatures. And so from an 00:41:21.579 --> 00:41:23.900 activist perspective, it's just a matter of efficiency. 00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:28.079 If we know that people respond to certain characteristics, 00:41:28.219 --> 00:41:33.260 like intelligence and cuteness, then anthropomorphizing 00:41:33.260 --> 00:41:37.039 animals in a way that makes them resemble us 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:42.579 more is a viable, a very viable strategy, right? 00:41:42.579 --> 00:41:44.400 And I think it works really well in that regard 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:48.179 because, yeah, I mean, again, it's just what 00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:51.179 people seem to respond to. Now, the other side 00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:54.480 of that perspective or, you know, the counterpoint 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.980 is that philosophically speaking and in terms 00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:02.820 of you know, if you're playing the long game 00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:08.480 kind of thing, the ongoing prioritization of 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:11.019 certain characteristics that we associate with 00:42:11.019 --> 00:42:15.360 ourselves, right, is not a long -term solution 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.500 because what it does is it continues, it perpetuates 00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:22.380 the hierarchy that exists. It just kind of extends 00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:27.539 it, right? So... Whereas before we used to think 00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:29.940 that perhaps only people should have rights, 00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:34.059 then we kind of expand that circle like Peter 00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:36.199 Singer puts it, right? We expand that circle 00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:40.119 and now chimps and whales and animals that think 00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:43.059 like us can fit in there, right? But then we're 00:42:43.059 --> 00:42:45.539 like, well, actually, you know, we see that some 00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:47.619 of those characteristics are also in chickens 00:42:47.619 --> 00:42:50.199 and cows and such. So we expand that circle a 00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.599 little bit more. But I think the problem with 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.579 that sort of approach is that there are always 00:42:54.579 --> 00:43:02.280 going to be life forms that are excluded from 00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:05.219 that circle, right? And I think you don't even 00:43:05.219 --> 00:43:07.699 necessarily need to look at other species. One 00:43:07.699 --> 00:43:11.980 of my favorite philosophers is Kerry Wolf, who's 00:43:11.980 --> 00:43:15.539 written on philosophical understandings of animality 00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:20.130 and such, right? And one sort of like thought 00:43:20.130 --> 00:43:22.170 experiment that he proposes is that, okay, so 00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:27.730 like, if you decide that to grant rights to a 00:43:27.730 --> 00:43:31.469 life form, it must fulfill certain cognitive 00:43:31.469 --> 00:43:34.289 capacities, right? It must demonstrate that it 00:43:34.289 --> 00:43:37.710 has certain cognitive capacities, that its intelligence 00:43:37.710 --> 00:43:40.409 levels are at a certain threshold, right? You 00:43:40.409 --> 00:43:44.809 can easily look and find people who, because 00:43:44.809 --> 00:43:49.300 of disabilities, or genetic conditions or whatever 00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:51.900 are not going to meet that threshold, right? 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.659 So it kind of shows you the limits of that approach, 00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:58.880 right? And likewise with animals, I think, anthropomorphizing 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:02.039 chickens or pigs like in the movie, babe, right? 00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:04.260 It can be a very effective method of getting 00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:07.280 people to think about how we're actually not 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.940 that different, right? And that perhaps we should 00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:12.530 give them... more consideration, that we should 00:44:12.530 --> 00:44:14.809 think more about the way that we relate to other 00:44:14.809 --> 00:44:17.849 creatures and other species. But I do think there 00:44:17.849 --> 00:44:24.389 are limits to that approach. So, you know, it's... 00:44:24.389 --> 00:44:30.150 I can't tell you whether I think it's... Or rather, 00:44:30.230 --> 00:44:31.710 I can tell you that I don't think it's the most 00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:34.510 effective way to go about this in the long run, 00:44:34.610 --> 00:44:40.389 right? That I think true animal liberation calls 00:44:40.389 --> 00:44:42.869 for a complete reconceptualization of what we 00:44:42.869 --> 00:44:47.409 value, right? And so focusing on cuteness or 00:44:47.409 --> 00:44:49.829 intelligence is not the long -term solution, 00:44:49.869 --> 00:44:54.010 but I think I do see the benefit of making gains 00:44:54.010 --> 00:44:56.309 wherever we can, right? Because I also understand 00:44:56.309 --> 00:45:00.590 the situation is dire. So, yeah, I guess I kind 00:45:00.590 --> 00:45:04.510 of oscillate between those two positions. I mean, 00:45:05.809 --> 00:45:10.139 not only that, but there are other people speaking 00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:15.360 to the general public, people who are pro, let's 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:18.639 say people who are anti -vegan, pro -hunting, 00:45:18.820 --> 00:45:21.599 pro -this, pro -that, and they say, hey, those 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:23.300 vegans don't know what you're talking about. 00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.099 Those vegans are city people who have never had 00:45:27.099 --> 00:45:31.239 a chicken, who have never met a goose or something. 00:45:31.630 --> 00:45:35.230 Um, and what they're talking about is, it's just 00:45:35.230 --> 00:45:38.030 bullshit. You know, let me show you a few videos 00:45:38.030 --> 00:45:43.630 of, uh, chickens hunting a mouse. Um, and look 00:45:43.630 --> 00:45:46.889 at how cute they really are. So no, you know, 00:45:47.010 --> 00:45:50.110 don't trust them. And so we've put ourselves 00:45:50.110 --> 00:45:53.429 in that position, my, I guess, in a way, lying 00:45:53.429 --> 00:45:55.929 to people. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. 00:45:55.969 --> 00:45:58.670 By the way, one of, um, You just reminded me 00:45:58.670 --> 00:46:00.849 that there is this really short, I think it's 00:46:00.849 --> 00:46:03.210 one of those TikTok videos, right, that I really 00:46:03.210 --> 00:46:07.769 appreciated, which was, it was a chicken, I believe 00:46:07.769 --> 00:46:11.630 hunting a mouse or some small rodent, right? 00:46:12.110 --> 00:46:17.230 But it was over, like the video played over the 00:46:17.230 --> 00:46:19.489 Jurassic Park soundtrack, which I thought was 00:46:19.489 --> 00:46:21.730 brilliant, right? Because yeah, I mean, that's 00:46:21.730 --> 00:46:27.010 essentially what you're watching. Yeah, you're 00:46:27.010 --> 00:46:28.610 right. I think that's something that I overlooked 00:46:28.610 --> 00:46:30.650 just now, but it's a perfectly valid point, which 00:46:30.650 --> 00:46:34.670 is that it also kind of makes some of these arguments 00:46:34.670 --> 00:46:38.590 less convincing to the people who perhaps do 00:46:38.590 --> 00:46:42.150 spend time with these animals, perhaps not under 00:46:42.150 --> 00:46:44.230 the most ethical conditions, but who understand 00:46:44.230 --> 00:46:46.170 their behavior perhaps a little bit better, or 00:46:46.170 --> 00:46:48.269 at least they understand it well enough to see 00:46:48.269 --> 00:46:51.710 that some of the anthropomorphizing that goes 00:46:51.710 --> 00:46:53.900 on in these campaigns is just flawed, right? 00:46:53.940 --> 00:46:56.239 It has no basis on reality. You're absolutely 00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:58.780 right. And I think that's a perfectly valid point 00:46:58.780 --> 00:47:02.500 to make. Although I would also counter that perhaps 00:47:02.500 --> 00:47:06.219 there is very little you can say to a hunter 00:47:06.219 --> 00:47:09.159 in my experience that will sway them, right? 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:11.219 Because perhaps they're also the ones that are 00:47:11.219 --> 00:47:14.119 going to be hardest to convince because their 00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:19.250 relationship with animals It's long standing, 00:47:19.489 --> 00:47:21.909 usually people having hunting for years or since 00:47:21.909 --> 00:47:24.110 they were little, right? So they become desensitized 00:47:24.110 --> 00:47:26.590 to it. And so perhaps they're the last people 00:47:26.590 --> 00:47:28.369 you should be worried about because they're the 00:47:28.369 --> 00:47:30.070 last ones you're going to convince of anything 00:47:30.070 --> 00:47:33.829 at all, right? Recently, I was following this 00:47:33.829 --> 00:47:36.650 conversation around the Calgary Stampede, which 00:47:36.650 --> 00:47:38.989 is one of the biggest rodeos in North America, 00:47:39.010 --> 00:47:42.230 right? And there were people protesting in Calgary. 00:47:43.900 --> 00:47:46.519 And they were protesting the exploitation of 00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:48.519 animals in the rodeo, and rodeos in general, 00:47:48.699 --> 00:47:51.800 but specifically at the Calgary Stampede. And 00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:56.320 some of the cowboys, I guess you would call them, 00:47:56.500 --> 00:47:59.440 the actual people participating in the rodeo, 00:48:00.500 --> 00:48:03.000 released a number of statements or went on YouTube 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:06.820 and TikTok and such to try to clarify some things. 00:48:06.860 --> 00:48:09.139 But there was this one particular video that 00:48:09.139 --> 00:48:11.199 stuck with me, which was, again, one of these 00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:17.650 cowboys. talking about how they were justified 00:48:17.650 --> 00:48:21.590 in their treatment of animals. First off, because 00:48:21.590 --> 00:48:23.969 otherwise most of these horses would be slaughtered 00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:28.349 since they have no use. And second, because this 00:48:28.349 --> 00:48:30.829 is just their culture, right? This is the culture 00:48:30.829 --> 00:48:32.769 of the place and that people who come to this 00:48:32.769 --> 00:48:35.670 place should, and I believe the phrasing was 00:48:35.670 --> 00:48:38.539 verbatim. They should learn to enjoy it like 00:48:38.539 --> 00:48:40.659 everyone else. And I thought it was very telling 00:48:40.659 --> 00:48:42.400 because that's exactly what happened to that 00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.019 person and everyone else, right? They learned 00:48:45.019 --> 00:48:48.980 to enjoy it because since they were little, they 00:48:48.980 --> 00:48:51.539 were indoctrinated into thinking that this is 00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:53.280 actually something that they're justified in 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:56.139 doing, right? And so they learned that this is 00:48:56.139 --> 00:48:58.480 a valid form of entertainment, right? On learning 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:05.710 that, it's complicated, right? So so I don't 00:49:05.710 --> 00:49:08.050 think that people who are deeply entrenched in 00:49:08.050 --> 00:49:11.269 a certain subculture That has a particular relationship 00:49:11.269 --> 00:49:15.690 to animals like hunter and prey or cowboy and 00:49:15.690 --> 00:49:18.269 cow, right? I do not think they're the first 00:49:18.269 --> 00:49:21.210 people we should go after because frankly, right 00:49:21.210 --> 00:49:24.829 they are the people that are the least open to 00:49:24.829 --> 00:49:27.809 these arguments and second They are in some ways 00:49:27.809 --> 00:49:30.250 a minority, right? Most people today don't hunt 00:49:30.250 --> 00:49:34.099 most people today don't ride horses for fun or, 00:49:34.099 --> 00:49:35.920 you know, engage in all these rodeo practices 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:38.400 for fun. I think that's safe to say that most 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.699 people don't do that, right? What most people 00:49:40.699 --> 00:49:43.199 do is they go to the supermarket and buy meat, 00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:45.659 right? They go to the supermarket and buy chicken 00:49:45.659 --> 00:49:49.380 wings and steaks and eggs and such. And I think 00:49:49.380 --> 00:49:50.920 those are the people that we should be thinking 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:54.159 about because they're the ones who have not been 00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:56.980 indoctrinated like that, right, to that particular 00:49:56.980 --> 00:50:00.059 relationship with animality, but rather they 00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:02.940 are blind to the fact that these are animals. 00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:07.219 There is no direct relationship between the animal 00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:10.619 and their everyday life because that has been, 00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:14.599 well, cut off through the processes of modernization 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:17.519 and consumerism and what have you. They don't 00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:20.159 have a direct relationship with the animal. So 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.079 in that case, I think establishing that direct 00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.739 relationship is important. And then perhaps, 00:50:24.739 --> 00:50:27.760 again, that's when you can think of anthropomorphizing 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:33.170 as a somewhat valid way or a fairly valid device 00:50:33.170 --> 00:50:35.969 through which you can kind of start developing 00:50:35.969 --> 00:50:38.070 a more direct relationship with an animal that 00:50:38.070 --> 00:50:42.650 is not based on consumerism. Yes, you're you're 00:50:42.650 --> 00:50:45.849 very right about that. You remind me this morning, 00:50:45.849 --> 00:50:51.409 I was reading an article from Big Ang. It was 00:50:51.409 --> 00:50:55.989 titled debunking anti meat lies or something 00:50:55.989 --> 00:51:00.139 like that. And it started with Do you remember 00:51:00.139 --> 00:51:03.239 every Sunday the barbecue in summer, you know, 00:51:03.320 --> 00:51:07.300 the family and it was just, you know, building 00:51:07.300 --> 00:51:10.659 the foundations of the pados, the, you know, 00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:15.780 the nostalgia, because that's all they have, 00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:19.260 you know, they don't have concrete arguments 00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:23.019 to present. So they have to rely on the conditioning 00:51:23.019 --> 00:51:28.510 of people. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's get back 00:51:28.510 --> 00:51:34.010 to Jurassic Park. And you mentioned a few moments 00:51:34.010 --> 00:51:39.630 ago how it was a critique of Zoo. And I agree 00:51:39.630 --> 00:51:45.630 with that. At the same time, I think this movie 00:51:45.630 --> 00:51:51.670 franchise has prepared the ground for a new market, 00:51:51.909 --> 00:51:56.420 which is the market of resuscitating animals 00:51:56.420 --> 00:52:00.199 that have been extinct for some time centuries. 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:05.699 And I'm talking here about Colossal, the biotech 00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:10.400 company that has, you know, created those, what 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:14.579 would they call them? Mice, mammoth mice, something 00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:17.059 like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was 00:52:17.369 --> 00:52:19.690 Yeah, I remember that. I thought you were talking 00:52:19.690 --> 00:52:21.510 about the dire wolves. But yeah, before that 00:52:21.510 --> 00:52:24.090 came the mammoth mouse. Yes, the mammoth mouse. 00:52:24.829 --> 00:52:27.469 I don't know what they called it. But the dire 00:52:27.469 --> 00:52:30.349 wolves, they also resuscitated the dire wolves 00:52:30.349 --> 00:52:33.550 and they want to do the same with mammoths and 00:52:33.550 --> 00:52:38.329 woolly mammoths. And at some point, they hope 00:52:38.329 --> 00:52:42.590 to do it with dinosaurs. So recreate basically 00:52:42.590 --> 00:52:46.150 Jurassic Park. Yeah. What do you make of that? 00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.679 Yeah. Well, first off, I would go back to this 00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:54.760 other podcast that I used to listen to. And I 00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:57.400 remember that it was structured around problems 00:52:57.400 --> 00:52:59.960 and solutions, right? Like social problems and 00:52:59.960 --> 00:53:05.099 solutions to those problems. And this one time, 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.500 one of the podcasters brought up genetic engineering 00:53:08.500 --> 00:53:12.619 as a solution, right? And those two were always 00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:14.760 bickering and that was the format of the podcast. 00:53:14.780 --> 00:53:18.420 So the other person went out and found a counter 00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:22.280 argument to genetic engineering. And this stuck 00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:27.539 with me because I thought it was, well, I found 00:53:27.539 --> 00:53:30.559 it hilarious first off, but also it's so on point, 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:40.809 right? So he starts reading this FAQ. section 00:53:40.809 --> 00:53:46.130 from a company that genetically engineered a 00:53:46.130 --> 00:53:51.090 certain kind of salmon to grow faster and produce 00:53:51.090 --> 00:53:54.530 more meat and supposedly lower its environmental 00:53:54.530 --> 00:53:58.889 impact. And he's reading the answer to one of 00:53:58.889 --> 00:54:04.550 the FAQs. And the question was, how do you make 00:54:04.550 --> 00:54:09.969 sure that these salmon do not contaminate the 00:54:09.969 --> 00:54:13.889 genetic diversity of wild salmon? And the answer 00:54:13.889 --> 00:54:17.230 was all of our salmon have been genetically engineered 00:54:17.230 --> 00:54:20.030 to precisely with this in mind. So they're all 00:54:20.030 --> 00:54:22.949 female and kind of reproduced in the wild. And 00:54:22.949 --> 00:54:26.909 the guy on the podcast, he says, man, this is 00:54:26.909 --> 00:54:29.590 the plot to Jurassic Park, right? Like, how did 00:54:29.590 --> 00:54:32.610 they, someone on ironically wrote this and did 00:54:32.610 --> 00:54:34.869 not realize that they're essentially making the 00:54:34.869 --> 00:54:37.010 same mistakes they make in Jurassic Park, right? 00:54:37.699 --> 00:54:43.679 And I think that that is so telling because you 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:45.980 can have films, right? And one of the reasons 00:54:45.980 --> 00:54:48.679 why I love narratives, right? Why I love stories 00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:52.159 is because of the fact that, and everybody knows 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:53.639 this, right? They have a message, they have a 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:56.880 moral, right? And I think in regards to Jurassic 00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:58.780 Park, there are a number of messages, there are 00:54:58.780 --> 00:55:01.880 a number of critiques and questions of morality, 00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:04.539 right? And one of them is precisely like what 00:55:04.539 --> 00:55:07.389 happens when you, temper with the very fabric 00:55:07.389 --> 00:55:09.190 of life, right? And I think that's not a new 00:55:09.190 --> 00:55:11.489 question. It's in many ways a re -imagination 00:55:11.489 --> 00:55:14.409 of Frankenstein, for example, right? Prometheus 00:55:14.409 --> 00:55:16.550 in some ways is also kind of related to those 00:55:16.550 --> 00:55:19.849 questions, right? But what's interesting to me 00:55:19.849 --> 00:55:25.269 is that we have these cultural texts that tell 00:55:25.269 --> 00:55:28.769 us perhaps we shouldn't play God, right? We shouldn't 00:55:28.769 --> 00:55:30.630 be messing around with things that we do not 00:55:30.630 --> 00:55:33.750 really understand. We shouldn't just like... 00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:36.820 as Malcolm puts it, right? We should ask whether 00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:41.960 we should before we ask whether we can. And I 00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:44.760 think unfortunately now we see it, like the technology 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:49.320 has gotten to the point where some of the sciences 00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:52.519 in Jurassic Park are now potentially a reality, 00:55:52.659 --> 00:55:56.219 right? And we have companies like Colossal that 00:55:56.219 --> 00:56:00.369 do it not with the explicit purpose of of making 00:56:00.369 --> 00:56:03.449 a product, at least not yet. They're not unlike 00:56:03.449 --> 00:56:09.389 this salmon corporation. They did not have mammoth 00:56:09.389 --> 00:56:11.829 fillets or whatever mammoth steaks in mind. They 00:56:11.829 --> 00:56:13.650 were not making a product they would sell for 00:56:13.650 --> 00:56:16.590 people's consumption just yet. But I think we 00:56:16.590 --> 00:56:20.070 can assume that is the goal. At some point, people 00:56:20.070 --> 00:56:22.429 who are working on the Pleistocene Park, for 00:56:22.429 --> 00:56:25.639 example, in Siberia. They have explicitly talked 00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:28.360 about the possibility of opening up hunting within 00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:31.039 this reserve as a way of generating revenue, 00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:34.440 because otherwise they cannot perpetually rely 00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:39.260 on grants, for example. So I do think that at 00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:42.519 the end of the day, because all these corporations 00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:44.920 are corporations that operate within a capitalist 00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:49.380 system, whether the explicit purpose of it is 00:56:49.380 --> 00:56:52.440 to generate revenue or not, they have to, right? 00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:54.260 They're in a position where they have no choice 00:56:54.260 --> 00:56:57.840 and so ultimately what this will result in is 00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.340 the further commodification of life forms that, 00:57:01.340 --> 00:57:05.000 you know, have essentially no rights because 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:09.159 as they say in Jurassic Park, a genetically engineered 00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:11.519 form of life that was created has no rights. 00:57:11.699 --> 00:57:13.500 It's property, right? It's intellectual property 00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:15.639 according to the law and so it'll be understood 00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:18.659 that way and it's only going to perpetuate the 00:57:18.659 --> 00:57:22.480 system in which we do not give any ethical consideration 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:25.719 to creatures that are not us because of whatever 00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:27.559 excuse we can think of, one of them being, well, 00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:31.400 we created it, so, you know, we own it. Now, 00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.159 having said that, I think colossal is particularly 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:37.219 insidious, right? Because not only does it do 00:57:37.219 --> 00:57:39.800 this, but in addition to that, they lie about 00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:43.000 it, right? As you might know, the dire wolf is 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.139 not a different kind of wolf. It's just a regular 00:57:46.139 --> 00:57:49.250 old gray wolf. which is an endangered species 00:57:49.250 --> 00:57:54.010 in some jurisdictions that was genetically modified. 00:57:56.389 --> 00:57:59.710 I don't understand to what extent, but I know 00:57:59.710 --> 00:58:02.269 that the purpose of that modification was to 00:58:02.269 --> 00:58:08.070 make it resemble a dire wolf. You have to question 00:58:08.070 --> 00:58:10.530 whether there's any scientific merit to that. 00:58:10.769 --> 00:58:14.590 Again, the only real reason I see to do this 00:58:14.590 --> 00:58:19.150 is to to show that you can, there is no real 00:58:19.150 --> 00:58:21.570 merit in it because you're not bringing back 00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:23.989 an extinct species. Not really. This isn't the 00:58:23.989 --> 00:58:27.050 extinction. It's genetic modification of a species 00:58:27.050 --> 00:58:30.750 that is in many places protected by law. And 00:58:30.750 --> 00:58:33.230 we can talk about the merits of conservation 00:58:33.230 --> 00:58:35.230 and all that stuff, but at the end of the day, 00:58:35.849 --> 00:58:38.849 it's just experimentation. It's experimentation 00:58:38.849 --> 00:58:42.630 on a creature that is intelligent, that is sentient, 00:58:43.070 --> 00:58:46.250 that I think we should value for purposes that 00:58:46.250 --> 00:58:51.349 are not just entertainment or almost whimsical, 00:58:51.769 --> 00:58:53.530 right? How can you do this? Oh, yes, we can. 00:58:53.630 --> 00:58:56.170 Look at this. Here it is. But so what, right? 00:58:56.190 --> 00:58:58.369 It doesn't accomplish anything. Now they're thinking 00:58:58.369 --> 00:59:00.730 about all their, they've talked about all their 00:59:00.730 --> 00:59:03.030 species, right? There's a Tasmanian tiger, which 00:59:03.030 --> 00:59:07.230 I think if they manage to clone something like 00:59:07.230 --> 00:59:10.469 a Tasmanian tiger, I think... then the conversation 00:59:10.469 --> 00:59:12.869 becomes a little more serious, right? Because 00:59:12.869 --> 00:59:15.389 that is a highly distinct species that you can't 00:59:15.389 --> 00:59:18.349 just take another marsupial and modify it into 00:59:18.349 --> 00:59:20.449 resembling a Tasmanian tiger, right? You can't 00:59:20.449 --> 00:59:22.289 do that to a Tasmanian devil or whatever. You 00:59:22.289 --> 00:59:25.409 have to actually recreate the entire organism. 00:59:26.050 --> 00:59:29.710 And, you know, the ecology of places like Tasmania 00:59:29.710 --> 00:59:32.130 and southern Australia where these animals used 00:59:32.130 --> 00:59:35.510 to live has been severely degraded as a result 00:59:35.510 --> 00:59:38.579 of their extinction, right? So perhaps you can 00:59:38.579 --> 00:59:41.179 think of the merits of introducing a species 00:59:41.179 --> 00:59:47.139 or recreating a species that is sorely missing 00:59:47.139 --> 00:59:49.519 in its native environment. That's a different 00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:51.639 conversation. But what Colossal is doing is not 00:59:51.639 --> 00:59:54.760 that yet. And again, I think that because it's 00:59:54.760 --> 01:00:00.260 ultimately a corporation, it'll trend towards 01:00:00.260 --> 01:00:03.960 making a product that they can sell. At the end 01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:06.340 of the day, that's what it's going to be. That's 01:00:06.340 --> 01:00:10.579 what I fear and and they're making Sorry for 01:00:10.579 --> 01:00:13.820 my language put a shit ton of revenue. I think 01:00:13.820 --> 01:00:19.739 that the the CEO and founder has just been Added 01:00:19.739 --> 01:00:25.039 to Forbes list of billionaires, so he's a billionaire 01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:34.179 now and That reminds me of my first contact with 01:00:34.179 --> 01:00:37.900 this new science of resuscitating or creating 01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:42.579 those kinds of mutants that resemble extinct 01:00:42.579 --> 01:00:46.440 species. And that was back in high school, believe 01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:50.420 it or not, from reading Science Magazine. And 01:00:50.420 --> 01:00:53.840 they had an article that started, you wake up 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:57.280 in the morning and you feel there's something 01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:02.619 weird. um you can quite you know point you know 01:01:02.619 --> 01:01:07.340 what's weird and then you continue reading and 01:01:07.340 --> 01:01:11.820 um the the you realize the protagonist realizes 01:01:11.820 --> 01:01:16.880 that uh he's in a zoo and that an alien species 01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:22.039 um has you know cloned him and um brought him 01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:28.440 back from uh who knows what uh era So humanity 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.139 has been extinct, and we've been brought back, 01:01:32.019 --> 01:01:37.179 which is the plot of a horror movie of the, you 01:01:37.179 --> 01:01:43.639 know, alien kind. So, you know, are they going 01:01:43.639 --> 01:01:51.639 to go as far as resuscitate hominids? Do you 01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:53.719 think that they will cross that line at some 01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:56.949 point? Yeah, I think that's the kind of stuff 01:01:56.949 --> 01:02:01.690 that I mean if I were I'm not a business person, 01:02:01.710 --> 01:02:06.289 right? But I can imagine that Well, you know 01:02:06.289 --> 01:02:09.510 they say that Bad publicity is still publicity, 01:02:09.690 --> 01:02:11.409 right? There's no such thing as bad publicity 01:02:11.409 --> 01:02:14.690 so perhaps this is an ill -informed take but 01:02:14.690 --> 01:02:18.690 but I wonder you know if Attempting something 01:02:18.690 --> 01:02:26.230 like that wouldn't be hugely detrimental to their 01:02:26.230 --> 01:02:29.789 perception in the public sphere, right? Because 01:02:29.789 --> 01:02:33.610 I'm thinking that wolves, as much as people do 01:02:33.610 --> 01:02:36.030 like wolves, I think most people have some sort 01:02:36.030 --> 01:02:39.829 of admiration for this particular species, right? 01:02:40.050 --> 01:02:43.050 It's still considered wholly other, right? It's 01:02:43.050 --> 01:02:47.210 still not people. And so it's okay to put them 01:02:47.210 --> 01:02:50.489 in zoos in most people's eyes. It's okay to, 01:02:50.489 --> 01:02:53.760 you know. occasionally seek them out in the wild, 01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:56.019 maybe domesticate them, some people hunt them, 01:02:56.139 --> 01:02:59.760 right? So I think that's one thing. Another thing 01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:03.340 altogether is to attempt to bring back a species 01:03:03.340 --> 01:03:07.659 that's essentially us with an asterisk, right? 01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:10.980 I don't know. I can imagine there would be lots 01:03:10.980 --> 01:03:14.179 of resistance to that. And I think perhaps that's 01:03:14.179 --> 01:03:16.260 the point to just kind of stir the conversation 01:03:16.260 --> 01:03:18.340 a little bit, right? To see how far they can 01:03:18.340 --> 01:03:25.300 push people and still um you know have a a favorable 01:03:25.300 --> 01:03:31.820 kind of public perception um what i could one 01:03:31.820 --> 01:03:34.739 one thing that perhaps is worth thinking about 01:03:34.739 --> 01:03:41.019 in relation to this is um i don't know if you 01:03:41.019 --> 01:03:44.099 remember it's not that long ago maybe two three 01:03:44.099 --> 01:03:49.579 years ago there were claims that a human being 01:03:49.579 --> 01:03:54.460 had been cloned in China, right? And before that, 01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:57.380 way before that in the early 2000s, when cloning 01:03:57.380 --> 01:04:00.079 first became the talk of the scientific community, 01:04:01.059 --> 01:04:04.239 the question of whether human cloning should 01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:07.500 be allowed was a more public conversation that 01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:10.860 was being had at that time, right? And as I remember, 01:04:11.139 --> 01:04:14.980 people were largely opposed to this idea. Right? 01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:17.659 So I think that they would also, I would hope 01:04:17.659 --> 01:04:21.719 that people would be opposed to the idea of bringing 01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:26.099 back a creature that would be so like us and 01:04:26.099 --> 01:04:29.260 yet not really. and thus open to exploitation, 01:04:29.480 --> 01:04:32.300 right? I don't see that happening, but that's 01:04:32.300 --> 01:04:34.139 the thing with, and again, right? That's what 01:04:34.139 --> 01:04:36.699 Jurassic Park tells us. That's the thing with 01:04:36.699 --> 01:04:39.519 scientific technologies like that, with genetic 01:04:39.519 --> 01:04:42.159 engineering and the fact that all of this is 01:04:42.159 --> 01:04:44.780 being done by private corporations now, is that 01:04:44.780 --> 01:04:51.380 you never know, right? industries are so deregulated 01:04:51.380 --> 01:04:53.420 right now and there are so many ways in which 01:04:53.420 --> 01:04:56.039 they can conduct research that's highly questionable, 01:04:56.039 --> 01:05:01.119 right? And not be in any way confronted by the 01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:03.019 public because the public just straight up doesn't 01:05:03.019 --> 01:05:04.960 know what's going on behind closed doors, right? 01:05:04.980 --> 01:05:06.500 They don't know what's going on in those labs. 01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:09.480 It's entirely possible they would attempt something 01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:13.030 like this, right? So who knows? I would like 01:05:13.030 --> 01:05:15.690 to believe that people wouldn't stand for it, 01:05:16.010 --> 01:05:19.949 but people stand for all kinds of things. There's 01:05:19.949 --> 01:05:23.130 something funny about the idea that there might 01:05:23.130 --> 01:05:26.869 be a clone of Albert Einstein in a Chinese lab 01:05:26.869 --> 01:05:32.769 right now. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned 01:05:32.769 --> 01:05:36.510 that because I think as an alternative to this, 01:05:36.510 --> 01:05:41.849 right, could be I'm not an advocate of AI technologies, 01:05:42.550 --> 01:05:48.949 but I recently saw this thing where this kid 01:05:48.949 --> 01:05:53.789 made an AI version of his grandpa so that his 01:05:53.789 --> 01:05:56.190 grandma, who was now widowed, could talk to him 01:05:56.190 --> 01:06:03.030 again. If this technology exists, and I think 01:06:03.030 --> 01:06:07.349 its ethical quandaries are not as dire as human 01:06:07.349 --> 01:06:09.889 cloning or the cloning of species that are human 01:06:09.889 --> 01:06:14.050 -like, then perhaps we should favor that over 01:06:14.050 --> 01:06:16.630 cloning over Einstein. Isn't it just possible 01:06:16.630 --> 01:06:20.010 to create an AI version of it? Although, of course, 01:06:20.269 --> 01:06:23.610 there are philosophers of AI who would perhaps 01:06:23.610 --> 01:06:27.010 debate whether that artificial intelligence would 01:06:27.010 --> 01:06:29.630 then be entitled to certain rights and considerations, 01:06:29.750 --> 01:06:33.170 but that's beyond my understanding. I can't say 01:06:33.170 --> 01:06:39.659 that I know much about that. Last question about 01:06:39.659 --> 01:06:46.760 Jurassic Park. A theme throughout the movie, 01:06:47.300 --> 01:06:51.760 at least in the beginning, in the first movie 01:06:51.760 --> 01:06:59.559 is the wonderment of the paleontologist looking 01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:03.500 at those dinosaurs and being able to touch them. 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:10.460 and to look at them, you know, closely. And I 01:07:10.460 --> 01:07:14.119 guess this kind of wonderment, we all share it 01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:19.599 for nature. And it's that very reason why they 01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:23.320 created that park, because they knew people would 01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:29.000 travel to go and look at those creatures. So 01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:34.340 how do you explain how this movie resonates so 01:07:34.340 --> 01:07:38.639 differently with different people. For me, it 01:07:38.639 --> 01:07:44.900 is a reason to be kinder to animals. And it is 01:07:44.900 --> 01:07:50.420 a critique of zoos. And for others, it is a motivation 01:07:50.420 --> 01:07:55.639 to create the very thing that the movie is denouncing. 01:07:57.320 --> 01:08:02.889 So what do you make of that diverse response 01:08:02.889 --> 01:08:08.250 to Jurassic Park? Yeah, that's an excellent question. 01:08:08.570 --> 01:08:11.610 And I think it's one that's difficult to answer. 01:08:13.510 --> 01:08:16.630 But I'm going to try by referencing something 01:08:16.630 --> 01:08:20.109 that we talked about earlier today, which was 01:08:20.109 --> 01:08:24.609 the place of paleontology, dinosaurs and evolutionary 01:08:24.609 --> 01:08:30.810 theory and society's understanding of the self. 01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:33.939 I think you're absolutely right in pointing out 01:08:33.939 --> 01:08:43.180 that there is an almost instinctive sense of 01:08:43.180 --> 01:08:45.539 wonder that we feel in the presence of nature, 01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:48.520 right? Whatever you want to call nature. But 01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:55.500 I think that that instinct or perhaps some, you 01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:59.159 know, feeling that we all have deep inside, I 01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:05.739 think it can be shaped. Right so. When when people 01:09:05.739 --> 01:09:12.399 stand in the face of these. Wonderful creatures 01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:16.100 that we share the world with that affect that 01:09:16.100 --> 01:09:19.979 feeling right will then be sort of channel depending 01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:22.720 or through your worldview through the ideologies 01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:25.800 excuse me for the ideas and ideologies have a 01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:30.260 ship that have shaped you excuse me so. Once 01:09:30.260 --> 01:09:34.720 that affect kind of surfaces within the body, 01:09:35.220 --> 01:09:39.539 right? The mind, my understanding of it is that 01:09:39.539 --> 01:09:43.239 our understanding of the world, like our cognitive 01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:45.140 understanding of the world, which is always going 01:09:45.140 --> 01:09:47.539 to be shaped by the society that we live in, 01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:52.159 it's going to warp that sense of wonder and it's 01:09:52.159 --> 01:09:54.479 going to transform it, right? It's going to channel 01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:57.680 it in a particular direction. And so even though 01:09:57.680 --> 01:10:00.819 we all share that sense of wonder, the way in 01:10:00.819 --> 01:10:04.020 which we project it back out into the world is 01:10:04.020 --> 01:10:05.760 going to be different from person to person, 01:10:05.939 --> 01:10:08.939 right? Although there are some trends, I think 01:10:08.939 --> 01:10:15.899 a lot of people feel the urge to be close to 01:10:15.899 --> 01:10:19.260 this natural world, right? And I think that's 01:10:19.260 --> 01:10:22.079 where the drive to own pets, for example, comes 01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:29.239 from. I've met a couple of vegans who used to 01:10:29.239 --> 01:10:33.560 own exotic pets, right? And I think even though 01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:36.479 most hardcore vegans would describe that as a 01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:40.880 contradiction, I think while it might be a contradiction, 01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:44.760 I think it's also a manifestation of this deep 01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:46.560 -seated love and admiration that we feel for 01:10:46.560 --> 01:10:48.500 the natural world, right? And then later as you 01:10:48.500 --> 01:10:51.449 learn more about for example, the exotic pet 01:10:51.449 --> 01:10:54.250 industry, you realize that that's not the right 01:10:54.250 --> 01:10:58.630 way to channel that affect, right? But that's 01:10:58.630 --> 01:11:02.590 not often the case. Most often, the way in which 01:11:02.590 --> 01:11:05.250 that emotion, that feeling will be channeled 01:11:05.250 --> 01:11:07.689 is, again, right shaped by your society. And 01:11:07.689 --> 01:11:10.329 if your society is one that understands animals 01:11:10.329 --> 01:11:14.310 as objects to be owned, for example, you go and 01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:16.699 get a pet. especially after watching Jurassic 01:11:16.699 --> 01:11:18.979 Park, you go and get a pet that resembles a dinosaur, 01:11:19.880 --> 01:11:24.659 right? Or conversely, you watch Jurassic Park 01:11:24.659 --> 01:11:30.520 and see them, quite frankly, the majesty of predators, 01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:34.720 right? And perhaps that affect is then channeled 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:36.899 into an urge to go hunting because that's what 01:11:36.899 --> 01:11:41.130 you know, right? So I think that's partly why 01:11:41.130 --> 01:11:43.909 we can all agree on the fact that most people, 01:11:44.109 --> 01:11:46.729 I think, even people who otherwise care very 01:11:46.729 --> 01:11:48.649 little for the environment, we can all agree 01:11:48.649 --> 01:11:52.630 that there is something about nature that attracts 01:11:52.630 --> 01:11:56.470 us, right? That something about it that allures 01:11:56.470 --> 01:11:59.329 us into wanting some sort of relationship with 01:11:59.329 --> 01:12:05.189 it. So I think that's partly where it comes from, 01:12:05.189 --> 01:12:07.590 right? And I think it's also why why biodiversity, 01:12:08.670 --> 01:12:12.289 animal conservation, wildlife conservation, has 01:12:12.289 --> 01:12:14.590 been such a pivotal piece of the environmental 01:12:14.590 --> 01:12:18.250 movement. Because I think it's one aspect of 01:12:18.250 --> 01:12:20.729 nature that most people respond to in some ways. 01:12:21.210 --> 01:12:24.430 And so it becomes an easy way to generate donations, 01:12:24.470 --> 01:12:27.810 for example, or sign people up to volunteer or 01:12:27.810 --> 01:12:31.659 whatnot. Which is why I study. representations 01:12:31.659 --> 01:12:34.800 of conservation and extinction and things that 01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:37.760 have to do with biodiversity because I think 01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:40.560 that it's one of the few things that really seem 01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:42.920 to generate some sort of consensus about the 01:12:42.920 --> 01:12:45.560 need to protect the environment or nature or 01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:49.659 whatever. Now, having said all this, I think 01:12:49.659 --> 01:12:57.060 that thinking of this feeling as a sense of wonder, 01:12:58.140 --> 01:13:03.239 right, I think that is the right way, or sorry, 01:13:03.319 --> 01:13:05.359 I shouldn't say the right way, but I think that 01:13:05.359 --> 01:13:07.600 is the way in which I would encourage all of 01:13:07.600 --> 01:13:11.960 us to channel that affect, right? There's this 01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:16.960 line, it's the last few lines of Charles Darwin's 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:21.060 On the Origin of Species. And I can recite it 01:13:21.060 --> 01:13:25.890 almost verbatim because it came to... It urged 01:13:25.890 --> 01:13:28.149 me to reshape the way in which I understand my 01:13:28.149 --> 01:13:29.350 relationship with nature because I used to be 01:13:29.350 --> 01:13:31.350 one of these people, right? I used to be one 01:13:31.350 --> 01:13:35.449 of those kids who would watch an animal documentary 01:13:35.449 --> 01:13:37.710 and want to get one of those animals as a pet, 01:13:37.729 --> 01:13:40.220 right? And I had countless... I'm sorry to say 01:13:40.220 --> 01:13:42.420 countless exotic pets when I was a kid. Pets 01:13:42.420 --> 01:13:44.920 that I did not know how to take care of. And 01:13:44.920 --> 01:13:47.239 that unfortunately most of them died because 01:13:47.239 --> 01:13:49.340 I was just a kid. I didn't know. But there were 01:13:49.340 --> 01:13:51.439 no limits to it, right? So I would ask my parents 01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:52.720 for a turtle and they would give me a turtle. 01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:54.260 I would ask them for like a lizard and they got 01:13:54.260 --> 01:13:56.039 me a lizard or a snake or what have you, right? 01:13:56.859 --> 01:14:00.560 But then reading this passage really made me 01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:04.979 kind of like rethink how to understand that feeling, 01:14:04.979 --> 01:14:06.500 right? And it goes something along the lines 01:14:06.500 --> 01:14:12.720 of how there is grandeur in this view of life 01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:16.800 that from so simple at beginnings, endless forms, 01:14:17.060 --> 01:14:19.840 most beautiful and most wonderful have been and 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:24.239 are being evolved. And what I like about that 01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:26.020 passage or one of the things that I hang onto 01:14:26.020 --> 01:14:30.779 is the concept of the view of it, right? Because 01:14:30.779 --> 01:14:34.079 I think that That sense of wonder you're talking 01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:36.180 about that we experience when i want to ask park 01:14:36.180 --> 01:14:38.319 or wildlife documentary on the other just now 01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:40.119 you send me to your national park or whatever 01:14:40.119 --> 01:14:44.579 right. It doesn't need to be anything other than 01:14:44.579 --> 01:14:47.779 an affect it doesn't need to be anything other 01:14:47.779 --> 01:14:51.060 than a view of the world right it doesn't have 01:14:51.060 --> 01:14:53.699 to be more than just this sublime experience. 01:14:55.020 --> 01:14:57.699 Perhaps learning to just think of it as a way 01:14:57.699 --> 01:15:01.579 of seeing the world as opposed to. as a way of 01:15:01.579 --> 01:15:08.100 owning it or claiming it or even like visiting 01:15:08.100 --> 01:15:09.920 it, right? Because our impact to the places that 01:15:09.920 --> 01:15:12.220 we visit is huge, right? And we shouldn't be 01:15:12.220 --> 01:15:15.659 in some of these places, right? So I think that 01:15:15.659 --> 01:15:21.279 learning that, learning to just feel that and 01:15:21.279 --> 01:15:26.039 not... do something about it. I think that's 01:15:26.039 --> 01:15:28.720 the way that I think we should strive to be. 01:15:28.779 --> 01:15:31.800 Obviously, it's difficult. And again, I don't 01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:37.500 blame people for doing things a certain way. 01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:40.479 I think we're all the product of ideologies. 01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:46.239 There's very little point in blaming people for 01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:48.000 doing certain things. I think it's more about 01:15:48.750 --> 01:15:52.250 perhaps encouraging them to rethink some of those. 01:15:52.850 --> 01:15:57.130 Yeah, some of their impulses. Is it ideology? 01:15:57.449 --> 01:16:02.409 Or are we just a predatory species? Yeah, good 01:16:02.409 --> 01:16:05.789 follow up. I think a lot of it is ideology. Look, 01:16:06.409 --> 01:16:09.229 one of the conversations that I have a lot when 01:16:09.229 --> 01:16:12.210 people when people ask about my veganism, or, 01:16:12.210 --> 01:16:13.949 or, or veganism in general, right? It's like, 01:16:14.029 --> 01:16:16.659 okay, but like, what about and then, you know, 01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:19.600 fill in the blank with some sort of society that 01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:22.579 is not yet fully Western, right? Like, well, 01:16:22.579 --> 01:16:25.420 what about like, I don't know, like the nomads 01:16:25.420 --> 01:16:28.420 of the Kalahari or the Inuit in Northern Canada 01:16:28.420 --> 01:16:31.659 and such and such and such, right? I think that 01:16:31.659 --> 01:16:34.979 evidently we're a predatory species in the sense 01:16:34.979 --> 01:16:41.489 that our evolution was shaped by... this transition 01:16:41.489 --> 01:16:43.949 that you see in the fossil record towards the 01:16:43.949 --> 01:16:46.050 consumption of meat, right? How that meat was 01:16:46.050 --> 01:16:48.329 procured, by the way, is not entirely understood. 01:16:48.970 --> 01:16:53.390 It's possible that hunting was not what drove 01:16:53.390 --> 01:16:55.909 that transition, but rather scavenging, right? 01:16:55.909 --> 01:16:59.449 I mean, you do have to remember that the few 01:16:59.449 --> 01:17:01.869 apes that inhabit the African savanna today, 01:17:02.229 --> 01:17:05.729 or primates, no apes, primates, right? Like the 01:17:05.729 --> 01:17:08.770 olive baboons, they're carnivorous, but they 01:17:08.770 --> 01:17:11.939 hardly ever hunt. they mostly scavenge and that's 01:17:11.939 --> 01:17:15.180 because other animals have taken those apex predatory 01:17:15.180 --> 01:17:16.699 positions, right? But anyway, the point being 01:17:16.699 --> 01:17:19.960 that I think that, yeah, like it's in our instinct 01:17:19.960 --> 01:17:23.380 in some way, right? But I think it's also true 01:17:23.380 --> 01:17:27.319 that in that sense of wonder and in that recognition 01:17:27.319 --> 01:17:31.239 of the grandeur of nature and furthermore, you 01:17:31.239 --> 01:17:33.619 know, the fact that we just, most of us right 01:17:33.619 --> 01:17:38.760 here in Western societies do not need to do it, 01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:42.750 right? I think that challenges the extent of 01:17:42.750 --> 01:17:44.850 that predatory behavior, right? I think most 01:17:44.850 --> 01:17:51.229 people would hesitate to kill the animals that 01:17:51.229 --> 01:17:53.229 they consume on an everyday basis, right? Like 01:17:53.229 --> 01:17:55.430 even somebody who really loves chicken wings 01:17:55.430 --> 01:17:59.170 would be hesitant to kill enough chickens to 01:17:59.170 --> 01:18:01.329 then have a platter of chicken wings, right? 01:18:01.930 --> 01:18:04.710 I think there are limits to that predatory instinct. 01:18:04.710 --> 01:18:10.079 And I think that again, our understanding of 01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:13.840 that consumer -based relationship to animals 01:18:13.840 --> 01:18:16.880 today is mostly, maybe ideological is not the 01:18:16.880 --> 01:18:21.779 right term, but I think it's the product of external 01:18:21.779 --> 01:18:25.319 forces, right? I think in no part of our genetic 01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:29.760 code is there a line that says, go to the supermarket 01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:32.979 and get a steak, right? I think there's a difference 01:18:32.979 --> 01:18:37.390 there. And yeah, I don't know. These are the 01:18:37.390 --> 01:18:39.289 tougher questions to answer, I think. Entire 01:18:39.289 --> 01:18:41.470 volumes have been written about that. But personally, 01:18:41.750 --> 01:18:44.850 I think that perhaps that's one way in which 01:18:44.850 --> 01:18:47.550 we can think of ourselves as different from most 01:18:47.550 --> 01:18:49.329 animals, right? And even then, I would question 01:18:49.329 --> 01:18:51.869 it. But we're not entirely driven by instinct, 01:18:52.029 --> 01:18:54.970 right? We acknowledge that on an everyday basis. 01:18:55.090 --> 01:18:57.770 Otherwise, society, as we know it, would not 01:18:57.770 --> 01:19:02.260 be possible. Why stop at not killing somebody 01:19:02.260 --> 01:19:06.239 who makes us angry, right? Why stop at not harassing 01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:09.460 people that disagree with us? Why not extend 01:19:09.460 --> 01:19:14.140 that control over our instincts to our fellow 01:19:14.140 --> 01:19:17.279 animals? Yes, it's an interesting question. I 01:19:17.279 --> 01:19:21.819 think you're right. If people are interested 01:19:21.819 --> 01:19:24.720 in learning more about this and exploring this 01:19:24.720 --> 01:19:29.739 topic, I actually interviewed Dr. Ahidu who led 01:19:29.739 --> 01:19:33.579 one of the first research showing that our ancestors 01:19:33.579 --> 01:19:39.979 were mostly plant based in their diet. So yeah, 01:19:40.060 --> 01:19:44.319 go look that up. I think it's episode 68 of the 01:19:44.319 --> 01:19:48.000 show. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. I will I will 01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:52.380 look it up because, um, you know, again, right, 01:19:52.479 --> 01:19:55.739 I teach critical analysis. And so I am always 01:19:55.739 --> 01:19:59.560 I'm all about like, Paying attention to the details 01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:02.220 of any utterance of any statement, right? Is 01:20:02.220 --> 01:20:05.159 that when I hear arguments like our ancestors 01:20:05.159 --> 01:20:07.979 were carnivorous or hunters or plant -based, 01:20:08.119 --> 01:20:12.180 right? I always ask which ancestors, right? Because 01:20:12.180 --> 01:20:14.760 human evolution is long, right? If you date back 01:20:14.760 --> 01:20:17.439 to, if you're talking about our ancestors as 01:20:17.439 --> 01:20:22.680 in like primates in general, right? And even 01:20:22.680 --> 01:20:25.760 primates in our family tree that were basal, 01:20:25.899 --> 01:20:29.659 they were overwhelmingly plant -based, right? 01:20:29.659 --> 01:20:33.380 Very few primates in the wild are otherwise, 01:20:33.619 --> 01:20:37.220 right? You do have some tribes of chimpanzees 01:20:37.220 --> 01:20:40.520 that hunt, but for the most part, they're plant 01:20:40.520 --> 01:20:43.560 -based, right? So when I say that like some of 01:20:43.560 --> 01:20:47.720 our ancestors do seem to exhibit some trans towards 01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:51.220 carnivory, right? That occurs at a very particular 01:20:51.220 --> 01:20:54.340 time in human evolution, right? And it's also... 01:20:55.050 --> 01:20:58.670 within the great scope of human evolution, it's 01:20:58.670 --> 01:21:01.210 a fraction of it, a tiny fraction of it, right? 01:21:01.409 --> 01:21:04.470 Not enough, for example, to give us a gut that 01:21:04.470 --> 01:21:06.789 can actually process meat, right? Which is why 01:21:06.789 --> 01:21:09.829 we have to cook it, right? Very few people struggle 01:21:09.829 --> 01:21:12.470 eating a raw banana, but most people will struggle 01:21:12.470 --> 01:21:14.949 to digest a raw piece of meat, right? So that 01:21:14.949 --> 01:21:16.550 transition that I was mentioning before, I should 01:21:16.550 --> 01:21:19.210 qualify that, right? It's not like the defining 01:21:19.210 --> 01:21:22.069 moment of human history. It's one of several 01:21:22.069 --> 01:21:24.869 moments, right? And I think it's the blink of 01:21:24.869 --> 01:21:27.109 an eye in evolutionary terms, right? And it's 01:21:27.109 --> 01:21:29.909 not long enough to have shaped us entirely. So 01:21:29.909 --> 01:21:32.890 we may have predatory instincts, but they're 01:21:32.890 --> 01:21:34.850 not the same kind of predatory instincts that 01:21:34.850 --> 01:21:38.149 drive my cat, for example, right? Who cannot 01:21:38.149 --> 01:21:43.390 survive without meat. So, yeah. Yes. Don't feed 01:21:43.390 --> 01:21:47.510 your cat a plant -based diet. I know I might 01:21:47.510 --> 01:21:51.859 get, you know... A bit of strong reactions from 01:21:51.859 --> 01:21:55.920 from that comment, but I stand by it And yeah, 01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:59.180 I wish I was more, you know pushing back on some 01:21:59.180 --> 01:22:03.039 of the claims, you know Observed and reported 01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:06.340 on in that in his study, but there was a language 01:22:06.340 --> 01:22:10.039 barrier Anyway, I got the scoop on interviewing 01:22:10.039 --> 01:22:14.720 him on that study. I knew it was you know a viral 01:22:14.720 --> 01:22:19.069 online when he published it at the beginning 01:22:19.069 --> 01:22:22.850 of the year. But yeah, I was happy to sit down 01:22:22.850 --> 01:22:28.350 with him. So Alex, do you want to add something 01:22:28.350 --> 01:22:34.149 before we stop the recording? No, just, you know, 01:22:34.289 --> 01:22:37.670 again, my name is Alex Ventimella. I'm a PhD 01:22:37.670 --> 01:22:40.329 candidate at the University of Alberta in the 01:22:40.329 --> 01:22:43.489 English and Film Department. I mostly research 01:22:44.300 --> 01:22:47.680 environmental documentaries that have to do with 01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:52.079 conservation, extinction, and environmental justice 01:22:52.079 --> 01:22:59.920 as well. And I guess I would encourage people 01:22:59.920 --> 01:23:04.420 to learn more about the many ways in which environmental 01:23:04.420 --> 01:23:07.699 issues interconnect. I think the conversation 01:23:07.699 --> 01:23:11.510 has been hung up on climate change. for quite 01:23:11.510 --> 01:23:14.350 a while without truly understanding what drives 01:23:14.350 --> 01:23:17.489 it, for example, without truly understanding 01:23:17.489 --> 01:23:20.930 the ways in which it connects to other issues 01:23:20.930 --> 01:23:25.029 that are longstanding, right? I would encourage 01:23:25.029 --> 01:23:28.210 people to go watch the new David Attenborough 01:23:28.210 --> 01:23:30.010 documentaries, which I hope to discuss with you 01:23:30.010 --> 01:23:31.550 at some point, because those are something that 01:23:31.550 --> 01:23:33.789 I'm very interested in. David Attenborough, for 01:23:33.789 --> 01:23:35.229 example, yeah, I think most people know him, 01:23:35.729 --> 01:23:39.939 right? He was for... the bulk of his career, 01:23:40.399 --> 01:23:43.000 he was apolitical, right? Because that was the 01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:46.220 tradition of the BBC, specifically the BBC's 01:23:46.220 --> 01:23:49.460 natural history unit to produce apolitical documentaries, 01:23:49.779 --> 01:23:53.279 right? And that the situation is now so dire 01:23:53.279 --> 01:23:57.699 that there has been a marked transition, a very 01:23:57.699 --> 01:24:01.640 marked transition in the way Adam Borough communicates 01:24:01.640 --> 01:24:03.960 his environmental message to the public. He is 01:24:03.960 --> 01:24:07.680 now embracing the you know, the concept of a 01:24:07.680 --> 01:24:09.680 plant -based diet. I think he doesn't use the 01:24:09.680 --> 01:24:11.600 term veganism because unfortunately has a lot 01:24:11.600 --> 01:24:14.500 of negative connotations, but he's spoken about, 01:24:14.520 --> 01:24:18.020 you know, how crucial it is to change our relationship 01:24:18.020 --> 01:24:20.319 to the natural world beginning with what we put 01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:22.960 in our bodies, right? And a big part of that 01:24:22.960 --> 01:24:32.159 is, yeah, letting go of that carnivory that has 01:24:32.159 --> 01:24:37.560 added very little to us as a society, but has 01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:40.460 been so hugely detrimental to the world, to nature, 01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:43.699 and to the lives of billions of creatures that 01:24:43.699 --> 01:24:47.800 are sentient and vulnerable and that can't speak 01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:51.949 and thus are easy to ignore. by most people. 01:24:52.210 --> 01:24:53.789 So yeah, definitely check that out, you know, 01:24:53.930 --> 01:24:55.789 inform yourselves, learn about the ways in which 01:24:55.789 --> 01:24:58.029 all these issues sort of interconnect, how they 01:24:58.029 --> 01:25:00.369 all intersect. And you know, if you care about 01:25:00.369 --> 01:25:02.510 pandas, if you care about tigers, if you care 01:25:02.510 --> 01:25:04.670 about all of these beautiful animals out there, 01:25:04.909 --> 01:25:08.050 right, a good place to start is always with your 01:25:08.050 --> 01:25:10.869 own bodies, right? And letting go of those things 01:25:10.869 --> 01:25:15.029 that we consume that put those other creatures 01:25:15.029 --> 01:25:17.729 that we do admire and that we do love in jeopardy 01:25:17.729 --> 01:25:22.909 as well. nicely said. Alex, I love your takes 01:25:22.909 --> 01:25:28.770 on all of those topics and questions. This was 01:25:28.770 --> 01:25:31.750 such a pleasant conversation. Yeah, it was. Thank 01:25:31.750 --> 01:25:34.949 you. Thank you so much. And please come back. 01:25:35.750 --> 01:25:38.409 Absolutely. If you ever need like a last minute 01:25:38.409 --> 01:25:41.149 guest or whatever, I'm always happy to join you. 01:25:41.489 --> 01:25:45.029 Oh, not even, you know, I want to have your take 01:25:45.029 --> 01:25:48.300 on the movie, babe. And I also want to comment 01:25:48.300 --> 01:25:50.680 that documentary and documentaries in general, 01:25:50.939 --> 01:25:53.960 I think, you know, there's a lot to be said about 01:25:53.960 --> 01:25:58.260 them. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, yeah. So 01:25:58.260 --> 01:26:00.300 for instance, like the last one that came out 01:26:00.300 --> 01:26:02.260 out of that that new school of documentaries 01:26:02.260 --> 01:26:06.920 by by Adam or Ocean, right? Ocean now with that 01:26:06.920 --> 01:26:10.420 markedly political message, anti trolling. anti 01:26:10.420 --> 01:26:14.899 -fisheries, right? It was so, so sorely lacking 01:26:14.899 --> 01:26:18.300 for all of last century, but it's gotten to the 01:26:18.300 --> 01:26:20.880 point where people who care about the environment 01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:22.840 like David Attenborough can no longer pretend 01:26:22.840 --> 01:26:24.899 that these are not issues, right? So which is 01:26:24.899 --> 01:26:27.119 why he stepped away from the BBC, or at least 01:26:27.119 --> 01:26:29.260 he's now in partnership with Netflix as well. 01:26:29.390 --> 01:26:32.029 Disney, corporations that are more open to political 01:26:32.029 --> 01:26:34.449 messaging. Surprisingly enough, Disney being 01:26:34.449 --> 01:26:36.329 one of them, right? But yeah, no, absolutely. 01:26:36.510 --> 01:26:37.689 Let's talk about that. Let's talk about whatever 01:26:37.689 --> 01:26:39.329 you want. But but I'm always happy to discuss 01:26:39.329 --> 01:26:42.069 films because I do think that that there's a 01:26:42.069 --> 01:26:46.090 certain power to the moving image and that encourages 01:26:46.090 --> 01:26:48.869 us to to to to to reconceive our understanding 01:26:48.869 --> 01:26:50.689 of the world. Right. So yeah, let's talk about 01:26:50.689 --> 01:26:54.770 all that. Definitely. See you soon. Thank you, 01:26:54.869 --> 01:26:57.590 everyone, for listening. I kindly invite you 01:26:57.590 --> 01:27:00.090 to share this podcast with the vegans you know. 01:27:00.489 --> 01:27:04.529 Let's encourage more people to take action. Again, 01:27:04.710 --> 01:27:07.470 thank you so much for caring and I will see you 01:27:07.470 --> 01:27:09.590 next Tuesday for a new episode.