Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and today we denounce the complicity of the media
in animal exploitation, how they have accepted
so much money to carry water for this cruel industry,
promoting meat, dairy and egg, while perpetuating
biased and deceitful anti -vegan beliefs. To
discuss this topic, I have with me Donnie Moss,
a lifelong animal rights activist who launched
my new favorite activist project, Veg Media Watch.
What Donnie does is scout through all mainstream
media coverage of veganism or the animal cause
and call out media organizations or journalists
showing a clear anti -vegan bias. I asked Donnie,
Who should we trust in this media landscape?
Does he think our movement has been infiltrated
by fake vegan media outlets or activists backed
by Big Ag? Does political affiliation affect
how we cover the animal industry? And much more.
Visit the episode notes and follow the link to
Veg Media Watch social media pages. It is so
satisfying to see someone expose those outrageous
anti -vegan stories we all come across. And as
always, please help this podcast grow by sharing
it with the vegans you know. You can also subscribe
and leave a good review. Every gesture is appreciated.
Thank you. My first question for you is, what
is driving that anti -vegan bias? Maybe it's
Big Ag funding that kind of content, pulling
the strings, or is it just conditioning? I think
it's a couple of things. I mean, if you look
back to, was it about 10 years ago when Beyond
Meat and Impossible Foods came onto the scene,
and all of a sudden there was tremendous buzz
about plant -based meats that really came very
close to beef, you know, beef, you know, for
a lot of people who would take a bite of a Beyond
Burger or an Impossible Burger, especially someone
like me who hadn't eaten meat in about 20 years,
like it felt like I was eating a burger again.
And so for good reason, the meat industry, especially
the beef industry was afraid. And so, you know,
they they launched a campaign and to to marginalize
these plant -based burger alternatives and to
scare people away from eating them. So all of
a sudden, we started to see these news articles
about ultra -processed foods. I don't think we
had really heard that word before, at least I
don't remember it. And all of a sudden plant
-based food was not only ultra processed, but
unnatural and artificial. And then meat was being
rebranded as whole foods and simple and clean.
And of course we know that's not true at all.
Meats are highly processed. And so I think that
was the biggest I think that's probably the main
reason why we see so much anti -vegan bias in
the mainstream media because these meat and dairy
companies spend a fortune on advertising and
I think to some extent these media outlets are
beholden to these meat and dairy companies when
their publicist call they pick up the phone because
they're advertisers so they're spending money
on advertising they're spending money on PR and
they're also spending money on influencers all
to spread this anti vegan pro meat propaganda
and so that's what we're up against and also
you just got media outlets maybe who aren't getting
advertising dollars from big ag and maybe aren't
being pitched by you know, publicists from Big
Ag. But they post articles with clickbait titles.
Vegan isn't healthy. Wait, I'm going to click
on that. You know, these provocative clickbait
titles that and those titles have consequences.
You know, people, you know, I've seen many instances
since I started Vegmedia Watch of these articles
that are really scare people away from a plant
based diet. And that's dangerous because that's
leading people to eating more meat and dairy
and other animal foods. That's a great point,
because people are not reading the article. They're
just reading the headline and they're getting
what they want to get from it. And that's it.
But going back to that anti vegan bias, it's
funny because I was I had a conversation with
a friend recently, and she told me about an organization
called the Animal Agriculture Alliance. Do you
know of them? I was at where they rebranded that
use or that is that an industry organization?
It is from Big Ac. Yes. Definitely sounds familiar.
Yes. Well, they have some initiatives where they
sponsor content creators to put out good content
about meat. Well, my question is, how do we know
who to trust? Where do we turn to? What are the
media outlets that are on our side and which
ones have chosen to go against veganism and the
whole animal cause? So are there any signs to
look for to see if the media outlets that we
normally follow have been captured by Big Ac.
Yeah, I think we need to look at not necessarily
the media outlet as a whole, but each individual
outlet, because you'll find that every media
outlet might do, I shouldn't say everyone, but
many media outlets will post both positive and
negative stories. Um, and so I can't make any
generalizations. What I will say is that, you
know, as part of what I do at veg media outreach
is roll up my sleeves and investigate what's
behind a story. So there's one, uh, publication
in India that w in which a doctor was, uh, was
writing. So I guess as a guest, I don't know
if she's not a journalist, but a doctor writing
maybe op ed pieces, uh, disparaging plant -based
diets, just attacking veganism, using the credibility
of her medical degree to do so, and that makes
it even more dangerous. But when I look into
her affiliations, I saw, wait, she's tied to
the beef industry. I don't remember that in that
particular case, but often you have to follow
the money to understand why. why an article is
biased. But again, sometimes it's just as simple
as plain old click bait. But yeah, it's a good
question. How do you know? what's fair and what's
truly biased. I mean, sometimes it's just so
clear that it's an anti -vegan propaganda piece.
But sometimes when they, you know, if they present
both sides, sometimes we just have to accept
that they've included the other side. And I can't
really call that out because there's some fair
balance. So I'm looking at each article on its
own, not in the broader context of the media
outlet. And I've seen that you focus a lot on
traditional medias. And I was wondering, what
is your opinion on them? Because for me, those
are a dying breed. You know, we won't have them
around in maybe 10 years. Who knows, I might
be wrong. But I'm all about, you know, independent
medias, like the one I'm building with this podcast.
So what do you think about them? And of course,
I should add the reason why they're dying out
is because they have lost the trust of the public.
Ed's Veg Media Watch, I can't go after everything.
You know, I do see what you're referring to,
these influencers who are using their platforms,
and they might have hundreds of thousands, if
not more followers, and they're posting this
anti -vegan propaganda. And I do think we need
to go after it. The problem is with these influencers,
they don't have a boss. They're not accountable
to anybody, except maybe their followers. Whereas
in the main When I target, let's just say a particular
reporter, and then I copy in a tweet, for example,
the editors and call out the recklessness or
the bias, then it's conceivable that the editors
would go back to the reporter. um you know and
say something or say maybe we have to be more
careful about this there's more accountability
you know there are many instances in which a
reporter has written maybe a balanced article
or even a favorable article but the editors who
choose the the headline pick something provocative
that has a negative sort of connotation and so
sometimes i'll call that out and i'll say this
it doesn't matter how fair balanced an article
is if the headline, which is what more people
are going to read, is anti vegan and unfair.
There's just with the mainstream media, there's
more accountability, there's more of a system
in place to hold sort of decision makers accountable
than there is on social media. But I agree with
you, we're going to have to go after these influencers
are probably being paid a lot of money by the
meat industry. Spread pro -meat anti -vegan propaganda.
But again, there's just there's less accountability
there. There's less of a way to hold them accountable.
That is very smart and insightful from you. Yes,
definitely. I see it. I see the value in targeting
them because also they are organizations that
call themselves objective and, you know, following
the truth and all of that. So yeah, we expect
more from them. Yeah, also keep in mind that
just because the mainstream media does seem like
it's sort of a dying breed as is K or you know,
cable cable networks, the mainstream media still
uses social media to post its content. And there's
still a lot of engagement there. So I do think
there's value and targeting the mainstream media
and there are a lot of people who are in their
40s, 50s, 60s and over, who rely on the mainstream
media. And of course, the older the population,
the less likely they are to use social media.
People like my parents don't use social media
at all. They get all of their news from the mainstream
media. And I want to be sure that the news that
they're getting about veganism is fair and balanced.
You know, I'm all about independent medias, but
they're not at the point where they can break
stories or send people in war zones to cover
an international conflict or something like that.
We're not at that level yet. And so their importance
of mainstream media is still there. Now, if you
had to rank them, Is there a mainstream media
organization out there that does worse than others?
And also, is there one that does better than
others in terms of, I guess, fairly reporting
on the vegan and animal cause? Well, I'll say
that I'll often complain about the New York Times
and the Washington Post when I see an article
that it feels unfair, you know, and of course,
we're hypersensitive because we know the stakes
are so high with between the animals and the
planet and human health. But I will say that
both of those media outlets do have regular contributors
who report on factory farming and the impact
of animal agriculture on the planet. And so But
after doing Veg Media Watch for a couple of months,
I can't see that I've seen any trends. One might
make certain assumptions about the New York Post,
which is a more conservative media outlet, but
then I'll see positive stories coming out of
there about veganism and animals, and then negative
stories coming out of publications or media outlets
that we might think of as being more progressive.
So sometimes I think we tend to think that animal
rights and veganism is more of an issue on the
left, but that's not always the case. And we
shouldn't speak in such a way that it is because
then we alienate people on the right who embrace
the vegan ethic and believe that animals should
have the right to live in peace. I second your
point. I mean, let's remember that Matthew Scully,
one of the most ardent defender of this cause.
Now he has written two books, denouncing factory
farming and promoting veganism is a was for a
long time. I think chief editor of National Review,
which is pretty, you know, right leading. Yeah,
exactly. I mean, and we have people in the animal
rights movement in New York City. who for years
have leaned to the right politically and many
of us have been quick to dismiss them. But we
do that at our own peril. We can't afford to
alienate people on the right or left or center.
We need everybody who believes in this cause
to join us and speak out. You know, it's interesting.
Right now we have a mayoral race taking place
in New York City. The primary just took place
and the general election is in November, and
there are four candidates. There's a Democrat,
there are two independents, two candidates running
on the independent line, and there's a Republican.
And the Republican has a much better record on
animal rights. than any of the other candidates
to the left of him politically. And so in the
past, I wouldn't have considered a Republican.
But this particular Republican, his name is Curtis
Sliwa, he accompanied me and another animal rights
activist to live animal markets a few months
ago when there were bird flu outbreaks at many
of the live animal markets in New York City.
and we wanted to go in and document the conditions
and to show the public that despite the bird
food outbreaks, these markets are still operating,
that people, members of the public are still
going inside of these markets with no PPE, no
masks, nothing, and shopping in a area where
there are absolutely birds who are carrying bird
flu. And so because walking into these markets
and filming is dangerous, and we know that the
employees can get violent, Curtis Lee, the Republican
running for on the you know, the guy running
on the Republican ticket, accompanied us and
used himself to shield us from the employees
who were spraying hoses and getting physically
violent. He's a big guy. There was no media there.
There was no one to give him credit for what
he was doing. He was just doing that because
he believed and this is kept my during a campaign
when he should have been out doing campaign events.
He was with two animal rights activists helping
us document conditions in a wet market and then
saying to us after, you know, I can't believe
I ever ate chicken. um you know because it's
mostly chickens in those markets poultry and
so yeah so you know i guess the point i'm trying
to make is you just don't know where you're going
to get support if it's from a right -leaning
person or a left -leaning person and um as it
turns out this particular hand it is moderate
he's not a right wing anything um and so right
as of now i'm planning to vote for this guy despite
the fact that he's a republican i've never done
that before That's a really interesting story.
So I Guess the vegan candidate who was the mayor
in right those past few years was a disappointment
Yeah, you know, it's a good point I forgot. I
mean, you know, Eric Adams, who is our mayor
and is now running on an independent on the independent
line, and who is not doing well in the polls
and is really just going to be a spoiler. He
came into office espousing a plant based diet,
which is terrific. And I think he, you know,
maybe introduced, you know, some meatless Fridays
and, you know, and vegan options and hospitals
and schools and all of that's great. You know,
he wasn't You know, he didn't lead by example,
really, because, you know, he'd be out in restaurants
eating fish. And he wasn't an animal. He didn't
subscribe to the vegan ethic that animals exist
for their own purposes that they're not here
for us are here with us. And they're entitled
to live in peace with their families just like
us. You know, he didn't subscribe to any of that.
He was just plant based for his health. And so
when there's no ethical mandate tied to it, then
of course, you know, you'll add in fish and,
you know, you know, we are vegan for ethical
reasons. So we're not going to consume anybody.
That's not the case with him. So he didn't set
a great example. But I give him plenty of credit
for talking about plant based diet, keeping it
on people's radar screens, you know, but no,
his his his You know, he was such a disappointing
mayor for so many other reasons, the corruption,
his ties to Donald Trump, you know, in order
to get all the legal, you know, the legal work
against him, you know, thrown away. So he's been
a disappointment. He's not going to be our next
mayor. And then the other two independent candidates,
the Democrat has no real record on animal rights
or veganism or anything like that. That's Mamdani.
And then Andrew Cuomo doesn't have much of a
record either on animal rights. You know, I used
to criticize him on social media because he would
post photos of himself with, you know, trophy
fishing, you know, with these huge dead fish,
you know, smiling. So that's to me, just trophy
hunting in the water. So not not an animal person,
but this the Republican is. Well, that's a really
interesting take. And what a story, you know.
If we put the media organizations on the side,
what about the journalists, the reporters? Nowadays,
I feel like journalists, reporters are not really
committed to one media organization. They usually
write articles for multiple media organizations.
They are contributors for different media outlets.
You do highlight through your initiative how
some of those reporters have a tendency to hit
on the animal cause and to negatively cover it.
So are there some reporters worth mentioning
in terms of really badly covering the animal
cause or really putting a great light on the
cause? Yeah, of course, I'm blanking out on names.
But there's a New York Times op -ed writer who
for years has been covering factory farms in
depth. And he's terrific. Maybe his name will
come to me. I've been reading him for years.
And I'm so grateful every time I see his name
come up in an article about factory farming,
which is, you know, one of his beats. But, you
know, I wonder with regard to reporters, and
you said that some work for multiple media outlets,
I mean, I think they probably get assignments.
And then if assignment editor has a mandate from
above to do a hit piece on plant based meats,
which we've seen a lot of, then they're probably
going to take take that on because it's money
in their pocket, you know, they get an assignment
and they want it. um and they probably know that
an article like that will get a lot of clicks
so uh and then there are probably there there
as i said earlier there are some uh people who
aren't necessarily journalists but they write
they submit op -ed pieces using their credentials
as a nutritionist or a physician um and they
use those credentials and post and submit articles
that trash uh veganism and promote meat and we
know that they're employed by or supported by
you know meat and dairy industry lobbying groups
so it comes in all shapes of sizes sort of this
the negative the negative these hit pieces come
they arise for many different reasons for many
different sources so i'm just looking at each
one individually trying to figure out what what
is that how did this one come about uh what was
the Purpose of this the article is good, but
the headline is bad Oh that just probably means
that the editors who picked the headlines were
looking for clickbait to get eyes, you know Maybe
to get eyes on the article, but then the article
might be good. So that's a good thing It really
every article is is different. I'm sure over
time I'm gonna really pick up trends, but this
is I'm only a couple months into this So I'm
still getting my feet wet, but I'm learning,
you know that reporters do care, because in at
least four occasions, they've responded to me,
mostly defensively, but there's been an apology
about for omitting something, omitting fair balance.
So, so they're paying attention, despite the
fact that I don't really have much of a following
yet. You know, I thought once I have thousands
of followers and more engagement than reporters
and editors, the media outlets would be more
sort of alarmed to see people amplifying what
I'm putting out there. But that amplification
didn't need to occur. for at least some reporters
to get back to me and respond. And when they're
responding defensively, you know you're getting
to them and maybe they'll be more careful next
time because they don't want this criticism.
They don't want to be challenged from higher
up. Reporters don't like to be in the spotlight
in a negative way. I've learned speaking to reporters.
And so they're vulnerable, as I said, more vulnerable
than the influencers, though I do think we need
to target them too. And let's make something
clear. Are you covering any kind of negative
coverage of the animal cause or are you really
targeting unfair coverage of the animal cause
that happens to be negative? Yeah, no, I'm covering
what is clear bias and what is clear propaganda.
If there's an article that is accurate and fair
about an ingredient used in a plant -based food,
and it's based on science, I'm probably not gonna
call that out. If it really feels like it's a
good faith... news or ever to report on news
If I think it's just a hook to bash veganism
if I can if I detect that then I'm gonna call
it out Sometimes it's a judgment call Sometimes,
you know, it's conceivable that you would see
an article that is upsetting to you and would
be upsetting to me But I feel like I can't really
call it out because it doesn't really demonstrate
bias Um, it's just information that we might
not be happy about, but that's rare. More often
than not, I'm finding that the negative articles
don't have fair balance or they're just, you
know, they're just straight out attack, you know,
anti -vegan propaganda that feels like it's coming
from the meat industry via the mainstream media.
So you're just, you know, it's called VegeMedia
Watch, but could have been called lies media
watch, you know, you're you're actually just
looking for dishonest media coverage. It's it's
it's more than just dishonest. It's just it's
you know, it's it's just clear bias. It's it's
it's propaganda. It doesn't seem fair. And so
that's what I'm calling out. And so I'm sure
this will continue to evolve over time. I'm finding
my voice, trying to figure out what works, trying
to figure out what will engage people in the
vegan community to take part in this, because
there's power in numbers. Although, as I said,
reporters are still responding despite how little
engagement there is. So yeah, I think it'll continue
to evolve. And maybe over time, mainstream media
becomes less less relevant maybe I'll shift to
influencers and social media or maybe more people
will come on board you know I just do this as
a volunteer it's not you know but maybe other
people who care about this will help out and
want to join me and calling out influencers or
even mainstream media outlets who are spreading
anti -vegan pro -meat you know propaganda What
consequences in bad media coverage have on the
progress of this cause? Well, just take a couple
things. Just take what happened to Beyond Meat,
which is a publicly traded company launched,
you know, IPO with so much fanfare. The price
shot up from I don't remember. what it came to
market at, maybe $60 or something. I might be
wrong about that. But at one point, it shot up
to $250 and now it's at about $3. And that is
absolutely a result of this campaign to attack
Beyond Meat as an ultra processed unnatural food.
Thankfully, a few days ago, CNN wrote a long
piece saying that Just because something is ultra
processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. When you
combine a bunch of healthy ingredients and process
them together, that doesn't necessarily create
an unhealthy product. In the case of Beyond Meat,
which is probably made from pea protein and soy
protein, and I'm not exactly sure, but plants
and other healthy ingredients, it's not... You
know, it's still a processed food, right? You're
still better off eating a carrot stick than a
Beyond Burger. But there is some nutritional
value. And it's not nearly as bad a processed
food as, let's say, a piece of bread, which is
made from white flour, or potato chips, or cookies,
or soda, or some salad dressings, or all of these
other processed foods that people eat. But these
articles this negative coverage is giving people
a free pass to eat regular beef instead as if
that's healthier than a plant -based alternative.
It's not. It's dangerous. When I see these titles,
vegan diet is unhealthy. Something is just egregious
as that. And I've seen that. I think, boy, there
are people who are going to just consume meat,
dairy, eggs, and they think that not eating a
healthy plant -based diet of fruits, vegetables,
whole grains and legumes that they're going to
think that's okay because the media told them
that veganism is unhealthy. It just feels very
dangerous. And I definitely call that out. I
should add though, because we're only talking
about calling out the negative articles, I'm
definitely using Veg Media Watch to amplify the
positive stories like the CNN story that I just
mentioned. I mean, I was so grateful to see CNN
acknowledge what we all know, that not all processed
foods are created equal, and in some cases they
might even be healthy. And also CNN acknowledged
how much better a Beyond Burger is for the planet
than a beef burger. And so we also need to encourage
mainstream media outlets to publish stories promoting
a healthy plant -based diet. Because if we encourage
them to do it, and we share those stories, they'll
continue to do it in the future. Because that'll
bring in more ad dollars for them if people see
all you know, if they can show engagement, and
clicks. Yes, well, that's the thing, I feel like
there's more power in denouncing, you know, the
negative articles than promoting the positive
ones. I think that for vegans, we want to see
those, uh, this positive coverage and we want
to see it being highlighted by, uh, veg, vegetarian
watch or anyone. But what, what is liking, what
was liking was the denunciation part of the negative
coverage. Um, so I, I talked to one of the co
-founders of beyond meat and he, he said they,
invested lots of money in marketing campaigns
to counteract that negative messaging. But now
I'm realizing they did not invest money in denouncing
that horrible coverage of their products. They
kind of tried to promote back their product into
existence. instead of, you know, denouncing the
kind of coverage they received and complaining.
So all of that to say they should pay you they
should send money your way because you're really,
you know, helping them out here. Yeah, you know,
I read I have nothing to gain financially from
any of this. I'm just, you know, volunteering
my time to do this. But it might make sense for
the plant -based community to come together and,
you know, formalize, you know, Veg Media Watch
and back it and we could get more people, you
know, they have an army, the other side has an
army of people. I mean, you hear about these
war rooms of publicists and influencers who the
media industry has hired to go after the plant
-based food industry and to promote the meat
industry. It would be nice if we had something
like Veg Media Watch, but bigger, where we're
fighting back on behalf of an ethical vegan company
like Beyond Meat. We want those companies to
survive for the planet, for our health, for the
animals, for the people who work there doing
good work. So yeah, I'm sad that they should
even have to fight for themselves. in the court
of public opinion and the media to defend against
these attacks. Look, there are lots of communities
that have watchdog groups. There's a gay and
lesbian alliance against defamation where I volunteered
many, many years ago. writing letters to the
editor of newspapers, this was before the internet,
writing letters to the editors of the newspaper
when there would be sort of a hit piece on gay
people. The Jewish community has the Anti -Defamation
League to speak out against, you know, anti -Semitism.
So likewise, we should have a group fighting
against anti -vegan bias and supporting those.
publications and people who promote veganism
fairly and accurately. Let me find back my tinfold
hat. And let me ask you, do you think that there
are some vegan media outlets out there are vegan
influencers that are just, you know, have been
captured or are actually part of that big, you
know, media campaign, sponsored by Big Ag, because
I see them pop up all the time, you know, all
sorts of media initiatives around veganism. And
I often wonder, who are the people behind that,
you know, sometimes I contact them and I get
no answer, which makes me even more, you know,
suspicious of of those initiatives. But is that
something you ever wondered? Well, I mean, you
know, I do set up Google alerts for vegan veganism,
plant based. And every day I get in, seemingly
every day I get an onslaught of of Articles that
come through from an organization called veg
out and the titles are appalling so it bills
itself as a plant based lifestyle. Magazine online
it's a website and the articles might be okay
but the clickbait titles are are just you know
are are awful really that would really. Would
really turn people off from veganism why vegans
are to eight ways how vegans are alienating their
friends, you know It's one title after another
so I call them out and I do wonder if all of
those articles are Sort of AI generated because
when I look on their website, I can't even really
find real people And so it does feel like this
particular website is exploiting us For exploiting
the interest in plant -based lifestyle for clicks
making money out off of it and sort of throwing
us under the bus That's the only one that comes
to mind that veg out magazine Is that what you
were referring to? Well, yeah, I was thinking
about that since you know, you you covered it
That also bots on social media accounts that
you know always disparage and and and say some
anti -vegan stuff online or on Reddit. I've seen
so many accounts on Reddit profiles labeling
themselves as vegan, but then you wonder, are
you really vegan? Why are you saying that kind
of stuff? We need an army of people. I mean what
you just described I mean I'm not on reddit and
I don't spend a ton of time on social media because
right now I'm focused on the mainstream media
but The as as we've talked about the industry
the meat and dairy industries are so big and
so powerful and so wealthy That to content, you
know to do justice and combat and then we need
to be there needs to be more of us now granted
You know even before i was doing veg media watch
of course i would comment in an article that
was negative or you know send a letter to the
editor here there but and lots of people do that
which is terrific which i just think we need
to do it in a much bigger scale and in a more
organized fashion like other communities do.
You're right about that and i jokingly you know.
talk about conspiracies and all of that. But
we're not talking about aliens here. It's not
really that much of a crazy conspiracy to believe
in because we have so many examples out there
of, for instance, foreign nations playing the
cultural wars to get what they want. And, you
know, we're capable of that, you know, in the
US, in North America. It's just It's not just
for a nation. For many years, I worked for in
public relations. I worked for a big PR firm
in New York and we had divisions. We had consumer
tech, pharma. And so I'm sure I don't remember
offhand if our company had any clients who were
meat, dairy, egg, whatever companies. But I'm
sure they would have if they had been and they
would have probably been paid hundreds of thousands
of dollars a year to do PR for them. That was
a long time ago. Now they're PR agencies that
probably just specialize in social media. The
landscape has changed dramatically. But of course,
the meat and dairy industries probably spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on lobbying,
advertising. a PR to get their messages out.
And I have no doubt that there are publicists
working at mainstream PR firms who are calling
and pitching anti -vegan propaganda stories.
Hey, we got a new bit of information about some
ultra -processed meat. Will you run a story?
And then if that media outlet knows that this
company is advertising also, then maybe they
might feel sort of an obligation to run a story.
We don't know what goes on behind the scenes,
but surely that kind of thing happens. They want
to support their advertisers. But more than that,
do you think they fuel, for instance, the infighting
in the vegan movement? Because I see the state
of this. community, so to speak. And I sometimes
wonder, um, was that all designed to, to fail,
you know, by, by someone, by a force? Um, and
does that include, you know, um, a social media
strategy to, to, to reach that goal, um, with
big money from a big industry? Um, yeah. Yeah,
it's, you know, I wouldn't be surprised. First
of all, of course, we know that the meat industry
and all of our all of the industries that we
oppose, whether it's animals for food, clothing
or entertainment, they must rejoice when they
see infighting in our community in the same way
that we would if we saw infighting and in their
community, whether or not they actually produce
campaigns that would that would trigger infighting
among us and keep us all week or focused on something
else, like issues outside of our world, I don't
know, but I can tell you that there are all of
these human causes that are unrelated to animal
rights that take up a lot of the oxygen in the
animal rights community, and that takes away
so much desperately needed attention from the
animals. I mean, I participate, you know, over
the years, of course, I participated in gay rights.
events, BLM events, and you know, there's never
discussion about veganism or animal rights or
anything. There's no consideration for animals
at those events at all. But now there's an expectation
among people in the animal rights and vegan movement
that we focus on human issues and it just takes
away, it tears us apart as a community because
we don't all agree. We're not all on the same
side of those human issues. Um, so, and it takes
away so much attention from the animals who are
not getting that attention and all of these other
human rights causes. So I wish we would just
stick to the animals. I wish we would use our
animal rights platforms to focus on, uh, on animal
liberation and not on all of these other causes.
Do you know what I want? I want to an investigation
on, you know, the state of this media vegan community
and have an idea of, you know, the percentage
of traffic driven by, you know, vegan discourse
and all of that. What's the percentage of bots
there? What's the percentage of people, you know,
from Pakistan that and I'm taking just one random
country, but that have been hired to pass themselves
for vegan activist online and what kind of things
they say. I really want to have some answers
and some hard data. And you look at social media
and the discourse online and you feel like sometimes
the majority is against you or backing up something
that you disagree with. But once you understand
that 50 % of those likes, those, you know, comments
came from bots or something like that, then you,
you understand that this is not real, that really
social media is not real, which is very cheesy
to say, but yeah. You know, I It's interesting
that you say that because I, you know, before
I started Veg Media Watch, I was working on this
Adidas kangaroo, you know, this kangaroos are
not shoes campaign trying to compel sports for
companies like Adidas and Nike to stop using
kangaroo skin. And so the last target was Adidas.
And thankfully, they announced, you know, a few
months ago that they would stop using kangaroo
skin and that campaign is largely over. But I
would I would post videos I would I would post
videos from the protests that I would organize
and some of them had millions of views on TikTok
literally and there would be thousands of comments
and many of them would be the same and I had
to wonder are these real people or are these
bots and sort of you know language that people
of my generation on 53, we don't language that
we don't use in words that I had to look up.
You know, this is gonna sound so stupid, but
like, thousands of comments that would start
with the word brah, B -U -R -H, you know, brah,
I -D, you know, I don't, I don't give a fuck,
I whatever the word initials are there. It was
just, and so many of them were the same. Use
the same language were these real people were
these real like teenagers posting these comments
I score bangers and I don't give So were those
bots do you know, I don't even know Yeah, I think
that we're putting our finger on the problem
here. We don't know we don't know how much of
that is real and I feel like your initiative
is the first step towards having answers to those
questions. I think that we have some homework
to do. Yeah, you know, I haven't been looking
so much at bots and comments on social media,
because I've been so much more focused on going
after the mainstream media for their coverage.
But yeah, I agree, this is something that we
need to understand too, because it's, you know,
potentially tearing our community apart. And,
and and moving people away from veganism. And
at a time when it's more important than ever
that more and more of us make the switch to a
plant -based diet. I can't believe we haven't
used the expression yet, but fake news is, I
think, the technical terms for, you know, dishonest
media bias. Although it has, you know, a political
connotation to it, as you know. Right. Then,
you know, the lines are blurred between news
and opinion, right? I mean, it used to be, I
can remember when I was younger, that it was
clear what was on the news pages of, let's say,
print media versus what was on the opinion pages.
But that feels more blurred now. The bias is
coming out in the news pages where it shouldn't
be coming out. And of course, that's very true
of the, you know, cable news networks like CNN
and MSNBC and Fox, where so much of it is just
sort of opinion, you know, you can kind of hear
it in the anchors voice. No, they're still and
maybe you're too young to remember this. But
you know, in the 70s and 80s, and I guess the
90s mean the main source of news for so many
people was a 630 evening news on CBS, NBC and
ABC. And you know those anchors would really
just deliver the news there was never a hint
of bias that i can recall but. And that could
very well still be the case on the evening news
at six thirty but. Apart from that it just feels
like so many media outlets are you know the bias
comes through on their news pages or words you
know it should just be objective. That's very
true the number of you know on youtube videos
covering those. uh, people reading the scripts
and you know, they're from different, um, media
outlets, yet they're reading the same script
about the same story. And there's this eerie
feeling that, you know, this is propaganda and
it's, this is not, you know, objective reporting
of facts. Yeah. It makes it so much more difficult
for us to know now what's true and what's not.
And it didn't used to feel that way. And you
used to believe the news. Now, even when I read
the news and, you know, reputable media outlets
like the Washington Post and the New York Times
or the Wall Street Journal, I, you know, I second
guess everything. You know, I guess years ago,
when I worked on the I was really involved in
the campaign to ban horse -drawn carriages, and
I still am, by the way, in New York City. And
I made this documentary film called Blinders
about the plight of the horses and took viewers
behind the scenes. So I had to learn a lot. I
had to dig really deep on that one issue, and
I learned a lot. And then I would see the reporting
in the New York Times about the horse -drawn
carriage issue and think, this is just factually
incorrect. You know, what they're stating here
is incorrect. And then when they would opine
about the horse -drawn carriage industry on the
editorial page, they got it wrong, too. You know,
they just got it completely wrong. And I thought,
if they're getting it wrong on this issue that
I happen to know a lot about, then what else
are... What else are they getting wrong? So I
do feel like I read the news with more of a grain
of salt now than I did in my, you know, when
I was in my 20s, down 30s. Definitely. What do
you make of the fact that now if you open the
news app or think of a title of a media outlet,
you get incredibly depressed. What is this about?
Is this done on purpose? you know, because those
negative emotions are drivers of engagement more
than, you know, something more positive. What
do you make of that? Well, I mean, the opposite
could be true for other people who look open
their feeds. And it's all stories about kittens
and puppies, you know, frolicking. I mean, I
think so much our feeds are curated now in a
way that we were unimaginable, you know, maybe
15 years ago. And so I think that we're being
delivered what they think we're going to read.
So for their advertising purposes. So, but yeah,
they're capitalizing on our emotions and our
interest to deliver us news that is going to
make these outlets more the most money. It's
definitely, it all feels manipulative and a little
bit dangerous. Do you get depressed from doing
this coverage of anti -vegan and also pro -vegan
media coverage? I guess my first emotion would
be frustrated to see the propaganda and to know
what we're up against and then a far distant
emotion is grateful for those who are doing it
right and who are being fair and giving us a
true shout out where we need it. And so those
are the emotions. I wouldn't say depressed. Depressed
is how I feel when I watch, you know, the video
footage of what goes on inside of factory farms
and slaughterhouses. But the news coverage itself
is just making me frustrated. and angry. Well,
it must feel good to, you know, have an initiative
to, you know, vent, you know, on those on those
issues. Must feels like must feel like journaling.
Yeah, it feels like I'm doing something I'm fighting
back. I know it's making a little bit of a difference,
as I said, because some journalists have reply,
despite the lack of engagement, you know, from
our side. So it feels like, you know, something
good could come of it. You know, look, we're
all spokes in a wheel, the people who do undercover
investigations, or open rescues, or the people
who are out on the streets doing vegan outreach,
education, websites, you know, campaigns, you
know, street camp, we all have something to contribute
here. This is just a very tiny spoke and a very
big wheel. But if I find that, you know, continues
to make a difference, if I feel like it's making
a difference, I'll keep at it and, you know,
and solicit people to help me and, you know,
maybe eventually get funding and, and, and turn
it into something, you know, an official entity.
Right now, it's just sort of a social media platform
on, you know, on all the platforms, basically,
at Veg Media Watch, trying to demand accountability,
and trying to augment, you know, and amplify
the the pro vegan stories, and affair stories.
Wonderful. Donnie, it's an amazing initiative.
It really is. And it has great potential. I think,
you know, you said we're all doing our own thing.
But I feel like this, this is, you know, affecting
everyone, and the efforts of everyone. So thank
you for that. So, Donnie, did you want to add
something before I stop the recording? Yeah,
just that if people could please go to the veg
media watch on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook
Threads and you know LinkedIn veg media watches
on all of those platforms and each one of them
sort of the posts are a little bit different
tailored to that platform Do you know if there
are reporters who use some platforms more than
others like I find out where they are and I target
them and the editors and you know the media outlets
so find me on the platforms that you use and
you know share it, comment, like, engage in some
way, because there's power in numbers. And so
the more engagement we have, the more likely,
you know, the bigger impact we'll have, I believe.
Well said. Donnie, thank you so much for your
great work. And thank you for having me. taking
the time to answer my questions. Thanks for your
interest and your support. Of course. Well, you're
a returning guest of the show. I should have
mentioned that, but I discovered Veg Media Watch,
and I'm always pronouncing it veg, but it's Veg
Media Watch through LinkedIn, and it was recommended
to me by the algorithm. I thought this is amazing.
I need to have the person behind this initiative
on the podcast. And it happens to be you. So
I'm really happy about that. You can't get rid
of me. Well, for the best. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Tony. Thank you, everyone, for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with
the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people
to take action. Again, thank you so much for
caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a
new episode.