WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.600 Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan 00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:06.099 and today I challenge you to dream of a world 00:00:06.099 --> 00:00:10.220 where 2 billion Muslims, inspired by their faith, 00:00:10.740 --> 00:00:13.779 decide to become vegan and embrace the animal 00:00:13.779 --> 00:00:17.260 cause. At the forefront of making this dream 00:00:17.260 --> 00:00:21.800 a reality is Green Islam, an initiative of kind 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.960 world media that reminds Muslims of how modern 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:30.219 consumption and lifestyle practices are incompatible 00:00:30.219 --> 00:00:34.479 with the original ethical spirit of Islam. To 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.759 discuss this pioneering work, I have with me 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:41.179 none other than the founder of Kind World Media 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:46.460 and Green Islam, Zahra Abbas. I asked Zahra what 00:00:46.460 --> 00:00:50.679 to make of Eid al -Adha, an Islamic holiday celebrated 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:54.460 by families with the sacrifice of a sheep. Why? 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:59.310 She thinks halal meat is a scam. how vegan activists 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:03.450 are failing to reach the Muslim world, and much 00:01:03.450 --> 00:01:06.629 much more. If you are interested in learning 00:01:06.629 --> 00:01:10.010 more about the Islamic world and veganism, you 00:01:10.010 --> 00:01:13.870 can also listen to Al Ma 'arri, the world's first 00:01:13.870 --> 00:01:18.750 vegan, episode 37, and Leblon Goes Vegan, episode 00:01:18.750 --> 00:01:23.109 38 of The Vegan Report. In the meantime, please 00:01:23.109 --> 00:01:25.909 subscribe and share this episode with your fellow 00:01:25.909 --> 00:01:29.500 vegan. The stories we cover here are meaningful 00:01:29.500 --> 00:01:35.200 and deserve your attention. Thank you. Thinking 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.859 about our conversation, I remembered another 00:01:37.859 --> 00:01:42.659 conversation I had with a human rights activist. 00:01:43.219 --> 00:01:49.719 It was years ago and I was talking about veganism 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.719 to this activist. And the first thing she said 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.719 was, and this was in the context of a discussion 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.239 about international relations. And the first 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.540 thing she said was, but veganism is a bit culturally 00:02:05.540 --> 00:02:10.099 insensitive. And the example she gave was Heydel 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:15.879 at home, you know, uh, and she said, um, pushing 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:19.919 the vegan agenda would be insensitive to people 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:24.419 who celebrate head at half for instance. So I, 00:02:24.419 --> 00:02:27.090 I, ask you the same question. Is it culturally 00:02:27.090 --> 00:02:31.229 insensitive to push veganism onto people who 00:02:31.229 --> 00:02:33.949 celebrate had a lot of time? Maybe also, what 00:02:33.949 --> 00:02:38.270 is had a lot of time? I love we're starting off 00:02:38.270 --> 00:02:42.930 with the hard hitting stuff. I love it. You know, 00:02:42.990 --> 00:02:46.810 if that's a great question, and probably a pretty 00:02:46.810 --> 00:02:53.400 common misconception. The thing is, is We have 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:58.120 in Islam quite a few schools of thought. We have 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.900 four schools of thoughts under Sunni Islam and 00:03:01.900 --> 00:03:06.590 then there's also Shia Islam. The Sunni school 00:03:06.590 --> 00:03:09.150 of thought from and I'm just sharing with you 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:11.590 what I'm most familiar with. Out of the four 00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:13.569 Sunni schools of thoughts, there's one school 00:03:13.569 --> 00:03:17.210 of thought that believes that it is mandatory 00:03:17.210 --> 00:03:20.389 or required to slaughter an animal. The rest 00:03:20.389 --> 00:03:24.169 do not believe that. The rest believe that we 00:03:24.330 --> 00:03:29.009 can we we should commemorate in terms of a sacrifice 00:03:29.009 --> 00:03:32.610 because what we know is that a prophet Abraham 00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:37.990 may peace be upon him there he was he believed 00:03:37.990 --> 00:03:41.189 that he was asked to sacrifice his son that which 00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:46.169 was dearest to him and he believed uh that that's 00:03:46.169 --> 00:03:48.270 what god was asking of him and his son of course 00:03:48.270 --> 00:03:52.310 said okay if if that's what needs be uh however 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:58.289 there was uh the sun was replaced by a ram a 00:03:58.289 --> 00:04:01.770 ram that came from the heavens and so yes there 00:04:01.770 --> 00:04:04.409 are a group of muslims who believe that we must 00:04:04.409 --> 00:04:08.610 slaughter an animal however uh there is also 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.840 a different thought, which is that we must slaughter, 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.540 we must sacrifice. And what that can look like 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:20.240 is sacrificing, you know, the funds you'd saved 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:22.959 for the next new phone you were going to buy 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:25.839 or the next car you were going to buy, right, 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.319 is taking that money or taking time out of your 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:33.360 busy schedule to volunteer. There are many ways 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:38.540 to sacrifice and through charitable giving or 00:04:38.350 --> 00:04:42.790 or through a variety of other ways we can engage 00:04:42.790 --> 00:04:44.889 in the concept of sacrifice. And it really doesn't 00:04:44.889 --> 00:04:48.730 need to be animals. And there are scholars who 00:04:48.730 --> 00:04:52.389 have spoken about this. There are videos online. 00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:55.449 And so for those that believe it's required, 00:04:55.550 --> 00:04:58.310 I would just encourage them to dig a little bit 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:01.269 deeper. And what do you make of the cultural 00:05:01.269 --> 00:05:06.910 and sensitive part? I don't think that it's... 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:12.220 culturally insensitive at all. I think that to 00:05:12.220 --> 00:05:16.240 be sensitive is to be compassionate, to be kind. 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:22.579 It's interesting that she evoked something from 00:05:22.579 --> 00:05:26.779 Islam. that she believed because Islam is all 00:05:26.779 --> 00:05:30.819 about peace and compassion and kindness and thoughtfulness 00:05:30.819 --> 00:05:35.480 and Islam is rife with instruction on how to 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.300 care for animals. It makes today's slaughterhouses 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:43.740 and animal farms pretty much non permissible 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:47.139 in Islam because there are so many rules, extensive 00:05:47.139 --> 00:05:50.279 rules and how we're supposed to treat animals. 00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:55.240 In fact, within Islam, we have so many teachings 00:05:55.240 --> 00:06:01.399 and so many stories that instill in us that one 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.600 act of cruelty from a pious Muslim towards an 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.819 animal, can lead them to hellfire, whereas a 00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:14.420 non -pious person or a non -Muslim or somebody 00:06:14.420 --> 00:06:19.120 who may be sinning in other ways, one act of 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.459 kindness towards an animal could have all of 00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:26.160 their sins forgiven. And so we are a tradition, 00:06:26.339 --> 00:06:30.800 we're people that really prioritize caring for 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:35.649 animals. very beautiful. Once you dig into the 00:06:35.649 --> 00:06:39.350 teachings and learn the teachings, then I think 00:06:39.350 --> 00:06:43.970 it's actually about it's reframed this this perspective 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:47.850 into caring for animals is actually the real 00:06:47.850 --> 00:06:52.209 tradition. And it's coming back to to, you know, 00:06:52.269 --> 00:06:56.490 the roots by by exercising compassion and care 00:06:56.490 --> 00:07:00.250 for animals. Beautiful. And let's get back to 00:07:00.250 --> 00:07:05.720 the head at home. So there are some assumptions 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:10.959 that we have as vegans and vegan activists. One 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:15.399 of them is if people had to kill the animal in 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.959 order to eat the animal, they would not do it. 00:07:20.139 --> 00:07:24.560 And when I see Hed al -Adha, I think this goes 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.180 against that profound assumption that we have 00:07:27.180 --> 00:07:30.740 on people because it becomes normalized, you 00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:34.629 know, to sacrifice an animal and to make it, 00:07:34.629 --> 00:07:39.430 you know, a family event, a ceremonial, religious 00:07:39.430 --> 00:07:45.589 event with a high significance. And I guess, 00:07:45.589 --> 00:07:50.290 you know, the challenge is how do we pierce through 00:07:50.290 --> 00:07:55.529 that conditioning to reach people? Did you ever, 00:07:55.529 --> 00:08:00.160 you know, think about it? Absolutely. This is 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:05.060 a great... I feel like it's actually someone 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:09.519 from a similar cultural background can understand 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:14.199 this perspective or even have this thought or 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.480 consideration because it does seem like in the 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.860 sanitized lives that we live here in North America, 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:25.560 for example, we don't... see slaughter, it is 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:27.399 tucked away. And I think the vast majority of 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:29.620 us would be horrified, at least I would like 00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:31.819 to believe the vast majority of us would be horrified 00:08:31.819 --> 00:08:36.299 if we saw that. I was born in Pakistan, and I 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:39.379 did see slaughter. I was there until I was about 00:08:39.379 --> 00:08:43.519 six years old. And I did see slaughter. And it 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:48.080 was distasteful, but it was normal. And it is, 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:51.399 in fact, culturally, as you mentioned, it can 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:55.379 be a family celebration. Folks will bring animals 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:59.019 to their home, decorate the animals, my goodness, 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.860 and like before the slaughter, right? It's a 00:09:02.860 --> 00:09:06.840 family activity, and that desensitizes children 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.960 to the act of slaughter, and it becomes normalized. 00:09:10.139 --> 00:09:13.539 And over time, then it's very comfortable for 00:09:13.539 --> 00:09:16.379 people to conduct the slaughter themselves, because 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:21.039 there is a sense of detachment or greater purpose 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:24.139 or something along those lines. What's interesting 00:09:24.139 --> 00:09:28.399 is that the UN Committee for Child Rights has 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.240 recently used child slaughter as an example of 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:35.159 child abuse because it has a traumatic effect 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.379 on a child's brain. And so it does make sense 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:40.399 that within those communities where kids are 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:46.899 exposed so early on and taught to become desensitized 00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:51.059 to it, it is In fact, they're normal. And it 00:09:51.059 --> 00:09:54.340 also makes sense that folks who live and grow 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:57.539 up in these countries where they don't see any 00:09:57.539 --> 00:10:00.100 blood or guts or slaughter or anything horrible, 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:04.600 if they as adults are then confronted with the 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:06.419 reality of what's happening in a slaughterhouse 00:10:06.419 --> 00:10:10.740 would probably be quite repelled by it. Yes, 00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:13.500 I had the same childhood background, you know, 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:18.440 I've seen countless, I think, slaughterings of 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.600 sheep. And it's always in the back of my mind, 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:27.559 you know, when vegans talk about, you know, spreading 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:32.100 veganism, that there's a large part of this world's 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:38.840 population that is not that impacted by, I guess, 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.600 footage of slaughter or the act of slaughter 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.039 itself, you know, that language of compassion 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:48.720 and look how horrible this is doesn't, you know, 00:10:49.139 --> 00:10:53.419 sound the same ring the same way. And I feel 00:10:53.419 --> 00:10:56.879 that there's something lacking there in terms 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.679 of activism, you know, of language and tactics 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:03.720 used to reach more people. Have you brainstormed 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.299 any solutions? I think that what's really been 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:10.700 effective for me, at least with advocacy within 00:11:10.700 --> 00:11:12.940 the Muslim community, I did, I learned early 00:11:12.940 --> 00:11:17.840 on as a vegan, who cared so deeply about extending 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.340 the vegan message to folks, I learned early on 00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:24.080 that you have to meet people where they are. 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:31.279 And truly the learning the teachings of Islam 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:34.960 around animal rights and me learning about them 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:39.919 brought me closer to Islam. And I think that 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.879 when I speak with a Muslim audience that is practicing 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:48.740 Muslim audience that really care about Islam 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:50.779 and Islamic teachings and doing their best to 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:53.820 follow them, I find that I have the easiest time 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:58.059 advocating. to them or with them, because they'll 00:11:58.059 --> 00:12:01.080 immediately recognize that Islam is very clear 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:02.899 on animal rights and we're not following those 00:12:02.899 --> 00:12:06.460 rules. And so it's almost easier than the person 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:09.620 who doesn't really care. You know, we've all 00:12:09.620 --> 00:12:12.139 met those folks who just say, I don't care what's 00:12:12.139 --> 00:12:15.519 happening to the animals. And that I find perplexing. 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.480 I don't know how to respond to that. You know, 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.000 I don't know how to respond to somebody who doesn't 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.159 care. But speaking with people who do care, it's 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:27.240 actually immediately we find common ground. And 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:29.820 what I find is lacking there is just simply a 00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:32.659 lack of knowledge or all the reasons we know 00:12:32.659 --> 00:12:34.580 why people don't necessarily go vegan, which 00:12:34.580 --> 00:12:37.840 is, you know, convenience, having a social network, 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.700 accessibility, and knowledge is a big piece, 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:44.500 not just knowledge around what's happening. with 00:12:44.500 --> 00:12:49.200 animals and all the impacts on from climate to 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:52.059 public health, the grave impacts of animal farming 00:12:52.059 --> 00:12:55.259 is such extensive piece to download in terms 00:12:55.259 --> 00:12:57.240 of knowledge. But then there's also a big piece 00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:59.559 of well, now what do we eat and what do we buy? 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:01.360 Because my folks haven't been thinking about 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:02.940 these things. I know for me, it was a bit of 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:05.980 a learning curve, I had to almost relearn food. 00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:09.820 And so there has to be a deep commitment. And 00:13:09.820 --> 00:13:14.200 I find it easier to reach with folks who are 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:17.700 really trying to follow Islam well. And I want 00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:22.200 to hear those arguments. And I'm really interested 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.980 about the halal part. I think lots of people 00:13:24.980 --> 00:13:29.539 are intrigued by that concept of halal. But they've 00:13:29.539 --> 00:13:32.120 seen that all around, you know, in the city or 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:37.240 something, the supermarket. How did we get there? 00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:41.720 How did the Muslim world? get to that place of, 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.320 you know, mass slaughters of animals for Adel 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:51.340 Ata or this acceptance, I guess, or tolerance 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:55.899 of slaughterhouses and factory farming if they 00:13:55.899 --> 00:14:00.799 are even aware of them existing. How did we get 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.409 to that place? I think when we want something, 00:14:03.429 --> 00:14:06.950 it becomes really easy to fool ourselves into 00:14:06.950 --> 00:14:12.190 something. I think that's why halal today isn't 00:14:12.190 --> 00:14:14.649 at all about animal welfare, even though the 00:14:14.649 --> 00:14:18.950 halal rules originally came down in regards to 00:14:18.950 --> 00:14:21.470 the welfare of animals or the care for animals. 00:14:23.999 --> 00:14:27.360 Today it's the vast majority of Muslims that 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.559 I have interacted with sincerely believe that 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.960 halal means ethical. That halal means the animals 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:36.539 are treated well and it's not from those factory 00:14:36.539 --> 00:14:39.220 farms because that wouldn't be halal. I think 00:14:39.220 --> 00:14:41.360 the vast majority have simply not thought about 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.259 what halal really means and I know for myself 00:14:44.259 --> 00:14:48.179 when I was younger I used to go with my family 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:53.000 to a halal slaughterhouse. It's actually not 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:54.799 even a halal slaughterhouse. It's just a chicken 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.000 slaughterhouse that had certain days where they 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:00.980 made halal. They made their chicken halal. And 00:15:00.980 --> 00:15:04.299 you could go there and buy chicken breast and 00:15:04.299 --> 00:15:07.659 chicken wings and ground chicken in bulk. And 00:15:07.659 --> 00:15:09.960 so it was the best prices. And you would stand 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.879 in line because there was a customer area. specifically 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.779 for the day that they would open up to the public 00:15:16.779 --> 00:15:20.759 and you would line up and then go place your 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.019 order for these boxes and buy them in bulk. And 00:15:24.019 --> 00:15:28.019 it's so bizarre that I thought that that was 00:15:28.019 --> 00:15:31.320 acceptable. I thought that that meant these animals 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.519 were treated well and that, you know, there was 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.879 nothing potentially problematic about engaging 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.419 in this. And it was only when I came across an 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:46.519 investigation that was done on this particular 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.399 slaughterhouse on cruelty, and they were fined, 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.460 I believe, for cruelty towards animals, that 00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:57.879 I thought, well, how could a halal slaughterhouse 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.659 be charged with cruelty? How do those two things, 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:05.000 how can I reconcile that? And so the more I dug 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:08.470 into it, the more I realized, oh, it's not. true, 00:16:08.470 --> 00:16:11.070 it's not real. This isn't really halal. This 00:16:11.070 --> 00:16:15.389 is, you know, we're getting hoodwinked. And so 00:16:15.389 --> 00:16:18.230 I became vegetarian. And I remember having a 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:20.789 couple of thoughts, because I also came across 00:16:20.789 --> 00:16:25.250 other investigations and learned that the turkey 00:16:25.250 --> 00:16:29.169 producer also selling halal turkey also has been 00:16:29.169 --> 00:16:32.470 charged with cruelty. And that's when I said, 00:16:32.549 --> 00:16:34.110 okay, I'm going to go vegetarian. And that was 00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:37.210 fairly easy. It wasn't very difficult to be vegetarian. 00:16:38.110 --> 00:16:42.870 And I found that I had a couple of thoughts here 00:16:42.870 --> 00:16:45.710 and there about, well, where does dairy come 00:16:45.710 --> 00:16:49.190 from? Or what about eggs? And what are the circumstances 00:16:49.190 --> 00:16:52.370 behind that? And are there enough cows? Because 00:16:52.370 --> 00:16:55.049 I live in the sub, at the time I lived in the 00:16:55.049 --> 00:16:57.990 suburb, but very close to the city. So I don't 00:16:57.990 --> 00:17:01.049 really see cows. So I remember thinking, where 00:17:01.049 --> 00:17:04.450 are all the cows to make enough milk and do they 00:17:04.450 --> 00:17:06.970 just make milk all the or are they are there 00:17:06.970 --> 00:17:10.309 that many pregnant cows that are producing all 00:17:10.309 --> 00:17:12.690 this milk that's available in every convenience 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:16.230 store and any place i might go or any grocery 00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:18.809 store that i might go to where are all the cows 00:17:18.809 --> 00:17:21.089 that produce this maybe there's not a whole lot 00:17:21.089 --> 00:17:23.529 of milk in the milk right i remember thinking 00:17:23.529 --> 00:17:27.990 that um and and making a note in my brain oh 00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:29.789 i've got to research this or i've got to look 00:17:29.789 --> 00:17:33.299 into this and then I just didn't because I got 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:35.839 distracted with this that or the other and it 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:39.039 wasn't until one day somebody said in front of 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.579 me as they were speaking with one of their friends 00:17:42.579 --> 00:17:45.440 they said if only people knew that dairy is so 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:47.940 much worse than meat and I remember at that time 00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:51.099 thinking what is he talking about and going home 00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:55.039 and researching it and and then that was my journey 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.910 so I think the vast majority of folks are a not 00:17:57.910 --> 00:18:00.630 thinking about it, be particularly in the Muslim 00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:05.029 community, convinced that we have divine permission. 00:18:05.309 --> 00:18:09.809 And if it's halal, it is divinely done. It's 00:18:09.809 --> 00:18:13.289 we're practicing it in a divine way. And so therefore, 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:16.650 nothing could be wrong with this picture. Everything's 00:18:16.650 --> 00:18:21.329 tickety -boo. So then who is responsible of that 00:18:21.329 --> 00:18:25.480 label, the halal? label. I guess I never asked 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:29.539 myself that question. But is there like a international 00:18:29.539 --> 00:18:32.859 organization or something that takes care of 00:18:32.859 --> 00:18:36.339 that? There are a lot of certifying bodies. And 00:18:36.339 --> 00:18:39.180 as far as I understand, they're localized. So 00:18:39.180 --> 00:18:43.680 Canada has our own UK has their own US has their 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.619 own and then within the countries, there can 00:18:46.619 --> 00:18:51.869 be different certification organizations. So 00:18:51.869 --> 00:18:54.109 there's not just one. When I was younger and 00:18:54.109 --> 00:18:57.329 there were less Muslims here in the greater Toronto 00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:00.250 area, there was, I believe, one main one, but 00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:03.130 now there's multiple. And so that's the thing 00:19:03.130 --> 00:19:07.319 is just about anyone can form a certification 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.400 body and say, well, this is what to get our certificate, 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:13.420 you have to meet this criteria. And when you 00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:15.980 go on their websites and look up what that criteria 00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:20.160 is, you'll find that animal welfare is generally 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:24.359 missing from the equation. There was one organization 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:30.019 or one butcher butcher place that was serving 00:19:30.019 --> 00:19:36.700 grass fed pasture raised organic, hand -slaughtered 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:40.460 meat. And I remember associating that with the 00:19:40.460 --> 00:19:44.319 most ethical available. And, you know, this must 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.759 be the humane farms. This is the true halal, 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.180 I thought. And I remember asking the assistant 00:19:50.180 --> 00:19:52.940 manager of this butcher shop when I was picking 00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:57.039 up some chicken from there, how much space the 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:01.799 chicken has when they say grass fed or pasture 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:04.519 raised and all that. What does that mean when 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.420 it comes to the life of a chicken or the life 00:20:07.420 --> 00:20:10.960 of a cow or a goat? And he said, well, you know, 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.079 they have enough space. And he was quite dismissive. 00:20:13.180 --> 00:20:14.440 He said, oh, yeah, yeah, they have enough space. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.240 And I said, well, how much space do they have? 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.420 And he said, oh, you know, it's enough space 00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:23.009 for them to spread their wings. And in that moment, 00:20:23.130 --> 00:20:27.430 I thought, oh, this is another form of us having 00:20:27.430 --> 00:20:30.490 the wool pulled over our eyes, excuse the non 00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:36.549 -vegan expression there. But it certainly was 00:20:36.549 --> 00:20:43.059 a moment of It was an opportunity at that time 00:20:43.059 --> 00:20:47.440 for me to either say, I'm going to shrug this 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.980 under the rug. I'm going to hide it under the 00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:53.019 rug. It's not my responsibility because they're 00:20:53.019 --> 00:20:55.940 telling me it's ethical. So now it's really their 00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:57.680 responsibility if they're not doing it right. 00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:01.420 I'm doing my best. Or the opportunity to say, 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.640 I'm not okay with this. I cannot support this. 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.579 And I really am so grateful for the investigation 00:21:07.579 --> 00:21:11.920 videos that I happen to watch because had I not 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.599 seen the extreme amount of cruelty within the 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:21.210 slaughterhouses and within animal farming in 00:21:21.210 --> 00:21:23.750 general, even on the so -called humane farms, 00:21:24.150 --> 00:21:26.390 I don't know if I would have had the empathy 00:21:26.390 --> 00:21:29.970 or the connection with the animals to make such 00:21:29.970 --> 00:21:33.230 a big jump because in our community, it really 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:37.049 is. I mean, in society as a whole, but then particularly 00:21:37.049 --> 00:21:39.829 in the Muslim community, it's a whole host of 00:21:39.829 --> 00:21:43.049 very different objections that you are faced 00:21:43.049 --> 00:21:47.250 with continuously. So as a A vegan person in 00:21:47.250 --> 00:21:49.990 the broader society, you're asked a lot about 00:21:49.990 --> 00:21:51.710 your health, right? Like, where do you get your 00:21:51.710 --> 00:21:53.490 protein? What about your B12? What about calcium? 00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:56.569 And, you know, aren't animals here for us to 00:21:56.569 --> 00:21:58.869 eat? And those kind of concepts. But within the 00:21:58.869 --> 00:22:01.269 Muslim community, there's a lot of, but God said 00:22:01.269 --> 00:22:04.390 you can eat animals. Are you defying God? Right? 00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:08.509 And so it gets a lot more complicated within 00:22:08.509 --> 00:22:11.490 that context. And I'm sure so many, so many different 00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:14.279 communities have their own version of that. Well, 00:22:14.420 --> 00:22:17.119 that's the I think the most interesting part, 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:21.700 you know how do you navigate those objections 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:27.339 and how you know because I I feel like for many 00:22:27.339 --> 00:22:31.720 people you would be the first person that ever 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:36.079 mentioned veganism or Has denounced, you know 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.619 what's happening with the halal business to them 00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:43.170 like you're breaking the news I don't know of 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:48.009 many other, and you tell me of many other vegan 00:22:48.009 --> 00:22:51.650 advocacy initiatives directed to Muslim communities. 00:22:52.950 --> 00:22:56.289 So yeah, how do you navigate those objections? 00:22:57.069 --> 00:23:01.710 There are quite a few in Muslim countries, wonderful 00:23:01.710 --> 00:23:04.670 organizations like the Middle East Vegan Society 00:23:04.670 --> 00:23:08.369 that are doing really great advocacy and really 00:23:08.369 --> 00:23:13.420 great community building. I think that everyone's 00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:17.119 kind of working within their geographical location 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.539 for the most part. And, you know, because we're 00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:24.539 such a diverse community, there's about two billion 00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:27.920 of us on planet Earth, almost quarter of the 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:32.660 world's population. And so the vegan Muslim activists 00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:35.319 that I know or Muslim adjacent activists that 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.920 I know are advocating in so many different languages, 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:42.329 in so many different Muslim -predominant countries. 00:23:42.950 --> 00:23:52.390 I think we're slowly growing. I think as more 00:23:52.390 --> 00:23:55.670 people become aware, more people are making the 00:23:55.670 --> 00:24:01.170 decision to leap into veganism. It's a whole 00:24:01.170 --> 00:24:06.109 different experience to then become a full -time 00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:09.160 advocate. or a regular advocate, right? Many 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:11.700 people start practicing themselves, but aren't 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:15.339 necessarily comfortable expressing in front of 00:24:15.339 --> 00:24:18.420 others. And it really is a lot of, it takes a 00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:22.099 lot of time and work to accumulate all of the 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:25.420 reasons so that we can be effective advocates. 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.180 So you do have to learn a little bit about environmental 00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:34.220 science and you have to learn about various slaughterhouses, 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:38.220 and you have to learn about health, so many things 00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:40.819 about health, right? And so I think it's not 00:24:40.819 --> 00:24:43.940 easy, but slowly and surely we're getting there. 00:24:44.059 --> 00:24:48.119 When I welcome religious leaders on this podcast, 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:53.779 I always ask, you know, what is the value of 00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:59.980 making the religious argument for veganism? So 00:24:59.980 --> 00:25:03.299 I ask you the same question. The religious argument. 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:07.019 Wow, okay. It's a great question. I'm sure you've 00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:11.019 gotten so many great answers. I think the religious 00:25:11.019 --> 00:25:13.980 argument is fairly simple. It says in the Quran, 00:25:14.180 --> 00:25:17.819 yes, we are, Muslims are given permission within 00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:23.220 the Quran to eat animals, specific animals. However, 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.059 it also says in the Quran that we can eat that 00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:30.420 which is halal and tayyab, which means permissible. 00:25:30.829 --> 00:25:36.089 and pure. And tayyab, pure, it means both morally 00:25:36.089 --> 00:25:40.890 as well as physically. Now we turn to the hadith, 00:25:41.109 --> 00:25:43.769 the sayings of Prophet Muhammad, may peace be 00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:46.569 upon him, and the understanding of his lifestyle 00:25:46.569 --> 00:25:49.950 to then understand what that really means. What 00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:52.890 does it mean that we can eat halal and tayyab? 00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:57.849 And what that means is that we cannot slaughter 00:25:57.849 --> 00:26:00.549 an animal in front of another, that they cannot 00:26:00.549 --> 00:26:03.529 be distressed. They cannot see blood, smell blood, 00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:06.690 even hear another slaughtered. They cannot, they 00:26:06.690 --> 00:26:10.130 should not see the knife before being slaughtered. 00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:15.349 There is a specific way that things are allowed 00:26:15.349 --> 00:26:20.930 and in today's animal farming that way is nearly 00:26:20.930 --> 00:26:26.279 impossible. It's impossible. We cannot separate 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.799 babies from their mothers. And animal farming 00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:33.440 depends on that. There is a lot of interference. 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.900 When we speak about the concept of pure, we are 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:40.279 breeding animals and there is human interference 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:43.740 and involvement in cruel ways to breed animals 00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:48.140 into existence. The Quran speaks about us destroying 00:26:50.069 --> 00:26:52.950 destruction and corruption of the earth, land 00:26:52.950 --> 00:26:55.329 and seas, and that is precisely what we're doing 00:26:55.329 --> 00:26:58.809 with animal farming. We are not supposed to uproot 00:26:58.809 --> 00:27:03.369 a tree in battle, and yet we are uprooting so 00:27:03.369 --> 00:27:09.670 many trees for a very, very cruel industry. So 00:27:09.670 --> 00:27:15.390 there is immense responsibility on Muslims to 00:27:15.390 --> 00:27:20.259 be stewards and vice regents. And we are simply 00:27:20.259 --> 00:27:25.160 unable to meet that requirement of us, if we 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:29.380 are engaging in any way with animal farming today, 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:31.700 because of the environmental impact, because 00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:34.019 of the public health impact, and most importantly, 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.240 because of what we're doing to the animals directly, 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:39.380 we're simply not allowed to do those things. 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:43.380 Do you feel like this type of argument for a 00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:47.940 Muslim is more convincing? and impactful than 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:50.880 the usual arguments we hear from, let's say, 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:55.960 secular vegans. You know, I get that feeling 00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.640 that the religious lane in the vegan movement 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:04.680 and the animal rights activism space is not really 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:10.099 that much explored, that there isn't that much 00:28:10.099 --> 00:28:16.160 invested when the potential is so great. What 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:20.200 do you make of that? You know, we do the best 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:24.559 we can with what's available to us. And I think 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.839 that when it comes to it might be a bit repetitive, 00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:31.859 but really, when people are following religion, 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:35.460 they're interested in following religion. And 00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:40.480 so when they see that Something opposes their 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.619 understanding of that religion. I think it's 00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:45.480 much easier to reach that demographic than the 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.259 average person who says, I don't particularly 00:28:48.259 --> 00:28:51.420 care about the animals or I don't really particularly 00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:55.630 care about religious teachings. it's harder to 00:28:55.630 --> 00:28:59.490 say to them, you should care, right? It's almost 00:28:59.490 --> 00:29:01.970 easier to reach the people who say, I already 00:29:01.970 --> 00:29:04.630 care, and I'm trying to be a good person. And 00:29:04.630 --> 00:29:06.769 this is my understanding of trying to be a good 00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:09.369 person. If that makes sense, you're then able 00:29:09.369 --> 00:29:12.710 to disrupt that a little bit and say, well, is 00:29:12.710 --> 00:29:17.109 it good? Is it acceptable? Is it okay? And when 00:29:17.109 --> 00:29:20.150 when we bring to attention where halal rules 00:29:20.150 --> 00:29:25.359 came from, you know, 1500 years ago, It was a 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:30.019 food desert. When Islam came, it was a literal 00:29:30.019 --> 00:29:32.680 desert. There were no grocery stores. There was 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:35.819 no import -export. And even at that time, Prophet 00:29:35.819 --> 00:29:39.519 Muhammad, may peace be upon him, only ate animals 00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:43.000 once in a while. Some sources might say once 00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.160 every two weeks. Some will say once every two 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:47.759 months. Some will say on a very rare occasion. 00:29:48.699 --> 00:29:53.579 everybody agrees that he was plant forward. And 00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:57.160 so it's, you know, once you're able to poke a 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.900 hole in the concept of what halal is today, and 00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:05.119 poke a hole in people's understanding of, or 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:08.640 association of halal with ethics, then it's fairly 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.319 simple to convince them to be more plant based, 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:15.710 at least it's a bit of a learning curve, you 00:30:15.710 --> 00:30:18.990 have to relearn food, right? So it's difficult 00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:21.930 and family and what everybody's used to eating 00:30:21.930 --> 00:30:24.950 and, you know, social occasions, it all becomes 00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:27.210 a little bit difficult. But what people find 00:30:27.210 --> 00:30:30.589 easier is to then start shifting their diet to 00:30:30.589 --> 00:30:33.650 a more plant forward diet. And I've had so many 00:30:33.650 --> 00:30:40.200 folks express that they'll try. they'll try buying 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.039 meat alternatives and try cooking with them and 00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:43.900 say you know this meat alternative worked out 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:45.480 well but this one didn't work out so well so 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:47.920 I still need to find a replacement for this and 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.920 this or folks will say stop eating red meat and 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:56.119 you know next I'll try to reduce my intake of 00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.019 other animal things that I'm eating but that 00:30:59.019 --> 00:31:04.240 I find to be an easy objective to get to so it's 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.099 the best kind of advocacy that I personally have 00:31:07.099 --> 00:31:10.529 participated in because it's just easier. We're 00:31:10.529 --> 00:31:12.869 just on the same page about where we want to 00:31:12.869 --> 00:31:17.250 go. Do you get the feeling sometimes that there 00:31:17.250 --> 00:31:24.890 should be more Muslim vegans out there that you're 00:31:24.890 --> 00:31:30.470 far too, you know, of a small group? And what 00:31:30.470 --> 00:31:37.579 do you attribute that to? I absolutely do think 00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:40.720 that we should have a lot more Muslim vegans 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:46.500 and I attribute the lack of vegan activism, advocacy 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:52.160 and engagement in our community with the fact 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:58.819 that there is an overwhelming amount of halal 00:31:58.819 --> 00:32:04.289 now available and this overwhelming concept of 00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:06.930 halal being associated with ethics, which we 00:32:06.930 --> 00:32:11.170 know is not. So I think that's really the culprit 00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:14.890 at hand. And I think dismantling that would go 00:32:14.890 --> 00:32:17.569 a long way for us. I have met people who will 00:32:17.569 --> 00:32:20.890 say things like, well, it's really our duties 00:32:20.890 --> 00:32:25.349 to buy halal. So if the halal folks are hoodwinking 00:32:25.349 --> 00:32:28.430 us, then then it's their responsibility. But 00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:30.289 it's a very rare person who will say something 00:32:30.289 --> 00:32:32.450 like that. The vast majority immediately will 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:37.750 say, oh, this is not OK. And people want to express 00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:42.150 their care in the way their actions are. And 00:32:42.150 --> 00:32:46.609 so I think we'll get there over time. But I think 00:32:46.609 --> 00:32:51.109 that we have our work cut out for us. I think 00:32:51.109 --> 00:32:56.920 that we need more activists. understanding how 00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.220 to communicate with the Muslim community. We 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:05.140 need more Muslim advocacy, and we need a more 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:10.099 engaged Muslim advocacy. And I think that would 00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:14.700 help light the fire, if you will, a little bit 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:20.160 more effectively or faster. Help us scale. Yeah. 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:26.180 Yes, I mean, going back to that. Comment of being 00:33:26.180 --> 00:33:31.519 culturally sensitive. I do feel that That argument 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:35.039 should be made by a Muslim to an a fellow Muslim 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:41.240 and it would be more effective than from a you 00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.660 know your standard vegan to a Muslim although 00:33:44.660 --> 00:33:48.859 I do think that you know the Your standard vegan 00:33:48.859 --> 00:33:51.740 who is doing the cube of truth out there should 00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:54.420 be aware that there is an argument to be made 00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:59.619 with, you know, Muslim vegans, and that, you 00:33:59.619 --> 00:34:02.480 know, there should be something like a flyer 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.400 with all of the things you said about halal, 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.800 for instance, that they could distribute to people. 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:16.079 I agree. I think that, you know, while typically 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.289 I would say folks, it's really important for 00:34:19.289 --> 00:34:23.210 the message that folks are receiving from a specific 00:34:23.210 --> 00:34:25.349 community to be coming from within the community. 00:34:25.829 --> 00:34:28.869 However, in this case, animal farming is just 00:34:28.869 --> 00:34:33.170 so extensive and we just don't have the halal 00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:37.869 industry so extensive and non -Muslims are selling 00:34:37.869 --> 00:34:42.389 halal in order to capture the Muslim audience 00:34:42.389 --> 00:34:46.469 because other consumers don't necessarily care. 00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:50.480 if the Boston pizza chain here is serving halal 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.179 meat, they'll just eat it. But to target the 00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:56.619 Muslim community and make sure they're also eating 00:34:56.619 --> 00:34:59.380 there, they'll serve halal meat. And so we have 00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:02.840 a really big halal meat problem that is far more 00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:08.489 extensive. It's far more pervasive and it's just 00:35:08.489 --> 00:35:12.090 out there, right? It's a little bit unhindered. 00:35:12.809 --> 00:35:15.409 We've had health gurus in the past like Kevin 00:35:15.409 --> 00:35:19.309 Trudeau in his book speak about how halal meat 00:35:19.309 --> 00:35:23.309 is a more clean or healthier meat. So we have 00:35:23.309 --> 00:35:28.210 a problem of non -Muslims consuming and selling 00:35:28.210 --> 00:35:32.210 halal meat. And so we don't have a choice. We 00:35:32.210 --> 00:35:39.050 need to really light the passion within vegan 00:35:39.050 --> 00:35:42.630 activists to be able to effectively reach Muslims. 00:35:43.849 --> 00:35:48.210 Because otherwise, you're missing a quarter of 00:35:48.210 --> 00:35:53.690 the world's demographic, right? And so when I 00:35:53.690 --> 00:35:58.309 speak with our fellow animal lovers and folks 00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:01.530 who advocate for animals regularly, I ask them 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:04.929 or encourage them to arm themselves with knowledge 00:36:04.929 --> 00:36:10.050 as I attempt to do. And I know they do as well, 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:12.929 but I want them to arm themselves with knowledge, 00:36:13.369 --> 00:36:15.949 specifically in regards to religion as well, 00:36:16.130 --> 00:36:19.369 because there are a whole ton of people who follow 00:36:19.369 --> 00:36:23.559 religious teachings. when it comes to the way 00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:26.820 they consume animals. And the thing is, is you 00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:29.159 don't necessarily need to learn the religion 00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:33.760 yourself or learn all the finer points of it. 00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:37.219 You can just ask questions. What does halal mean? 00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:40.880 How do you know that halal animals are coming 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:44.320 from farms that aren't like these slaughterhouses? 00:36:45.309 --> 00:36:49.289 Can you, what evidence do they provide of that? 00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:52.150 If it is in fact coming from this kind of a slaughterhouse 00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:54.190 and it's labeled halal, is that permissible for 00:36:54.190 --> 00:36:57.809 you to eat? There's so many questions and that 00:36:57.809 --> 00:37:01.769 can help, it's deep canvassing work really, is 00:37:01.769 --> 00:37:04.820 it can really help people. consider and think 00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:07.420 about what halal means. And there's a couple 00:37:07.420 --> 00:37:09.639 of street activists that do such a great job 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:12.519 and their YouTube videos can go a long way to 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.880 help inspire our fellow vegan advocates as well 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:18.239 to speak to the Muslim audience. One of them 00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.579 is Earthling Ed. There is a bunch of videos with 00:37:21.579 --> 00:37:25.780 if we just look up his videos on YouTube with 00:37:25.780 --> 00:37:28.659 vegan and halal, you'll find a couple of debates. 00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:32.340 And then there's also Joey Carbstrong, who's 00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:35.469 done really great work. And as a non -Muslim, 00:37:35.489 --> 00:37:38.530 he's able to communicate so well with the Muslim 00:37:38.530 --> 00:37:42.650 audience. Both of these gentlemen do a really, 00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:45.989 really great job. And I think all vegan advocates 00:37:45.989 --> 00:37:50.110 need to be able to do that. And some of the vegan 00:37:50.110 --> 00:37:55.170 content can be easily repackaged to reach the 00:37:55.170 --> 00:37:58.889 Muslim audience, but some has to be mindful that, 00:37:58.889 --> 00:38:03.230 for example, pig slaughterhouses, doesn't reach 00:38:03.230 --> 00:38:06.070 the Muslim audience. And so just making sure 00:38:06.070 --> 00:38:09.610 that when we are doing street activism, it's 00:38:09.610 --> 00:38:13.389 of course great to include pigs, but it's also 00:38:13.389 --> 00:38:16.869 really important to also make sure that there's 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:22.409 content with cows and chickens. And if you have 00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:25.030 material on halal slaughterhouses or footage 00:38:25.030 --> 00:38:27.550 from halal slaughterhouses, that can just go 00:38:27.550 --> 00:38:30.329 a really long way in being able to connect with 00:38:30.329 --> 00:38:36.619 folks. What about the language barrier? I know 00:38:36.619 --> 00:38:42.719 that George Hayek from Lebanese Vegan, he posts 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:47.400 a lot of videos and stuff like that with Arabic 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:51.440 subtitles. But there is that problem too, I guess, 00:38:51.579 --> 00:38:55.599 to reach those two billion Muslim people in the 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:58.550 world. I think the funders are doing great job 00:38:58.550 --> 00:39:02.010 these days in reaching community members who 00:39:02.010 --> 00:39:03.929 are advocating within their own communities. 00:39:04.829 --> 00:39:07.969 And so, you know, somebody in Bangladesh is going 00:39:07.969 --> 00:39:11.130 to make it relevant to their community and George 00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:13.250 is going to make it relevant to his community. 00:39:13.809 --> 00:39:17.710 I tend to stick to the diaspora community, Muslim 00:39:17.710 --> 00:39:21.679 leaders. and Muslim community members in Western 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.539 countries who speak English. And so I think we 00:39:25.539 --> 00:39:29.400 need to just spread out in the areas where we 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.420 are the experts and really concentrate on those 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:35.820 and just make sure that our fellow Muslims in 00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:38.280 other parts of the world are also empowered and 00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.519 we're collaborating in great ways so that we 00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.800 can help achieve the goals that we're all interested 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.159 in achieving. We talked a lot about the food 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:50.579 part, the diet part, but what about the rest? 00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:56.300 You know, the zoo, I know that if you visit some 00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:59.000 Middle Eastern countries, even North African 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:04.260 countries, they will put you on the camel and 00:40:04.260 --> 00:40:08.639 you will visit the Phoenix in cages and stuff 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.639 like that. What about that part of animal expedition 00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:20.099 that is not about diet. I when when I'm engaging 00:40:20.099 --> 00:40:22.920 in advocacy, I do speak about animal testing 00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:28.800 or you know, accessing or just making sure that 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:33.460 our purchases are more aligned with ethics. So 00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:36.860 cruelty free makeup fee and makeup. And I find 00:40:36.860 --> 00:40:41.269 that many people tend to when they're presented 00:40:41.269 --> 00:40:44.530 with an ethical option, they tend to go for the 00:40:44.530 --> 00:40:50.449 ethical option. As but oftentimes, it'll be so 00:40:50.449 --> 00:40:52.929 in a way where they're not compromising quality. 00:40:53.170 --> 00:40:58.039 So if if there are ethical, products, they'll 00:40:58.039 --> 00:40:59.960 tend to lean a little bit more towards the ethical 00:40:59.960 --> 00:41:03.099 products. There are many folks I know who are 00:41:03.099 --> 00:41:05.900 not vegan who don't go to the zoo because they 00:41:05.900 --> 00:41:09.760 don't like that animals are in cages or confined. 00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:14.340 And I think that there is, you know, just like 00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:17.079 we do advocacy outside the Muslim community. 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:20.980 It's quite the same within the Muslim community. 00:41:21.139 --> 00:41:23.300 There's many people who love animals and care 00:41:23.300 --> 00:41:25.780 for animals and care for their well -being. And 00:41:25.780 --> 00:41:28.659 so when we position, you know, look at what's 00:41:28.659 --> 00:41:30.619 happened to the animals that are confined, look 00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:35.559 how deeply traumatized they are, look at what 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.900 humans are doing to animals, many of them upon 00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:43.820 understanding that the animal is being hurt in 00:41:43.820 --> 00:41:49.159 question, they will often express care. And there's 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:51.539 of course, many who just simply don't care. So 00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:57.780 it's like activism in any community. And same 00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:01.800 goes for like wool. I remember in a group chat 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:03.679 when my friends were speaking about wool and 00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.599 they were saying, oh, wool, you know, it's... 00:42:06.590 --> 00:42:08.949 really cold, and we've got to get some wool socks. 00:42:08.969 --> 00:42:10.929 And I said, Well, look, here's, you know, an 00:42:10.929 --> 00:42:14.449 investigation in wool farms, and this is what's 00:42:14.449 --> 00:42:15.730 happening on the wool farms. And they were like, 00:42:15.730 --> 00:42:18.929 Oh, no, okay, what else can we get? And so there 00:42:18.929 --> 00:42:23.210 are, there's definitely a desire for people often 00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:28.070 to do better, when they know better. Do you find 00:42:28.070 --> 00:42:33.730 that there is a segment of the Muslim community, 00:42:34.090 --> 00:42:41.010 or maybe a country that does better than others 00:42:41.010 --> 00:42:46.650 in terms of animal welfare, even veganism. Veganism, 00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:51.469 sure. We have the data that shows us where plant 00:42:51.469 --> 00:42:54.050 -based options are more available and more people 00:42:54.050 --> 00:42:57.789 are consuming plant -based and all of that, or 00:42:57.789 --> 00:43:04.519 ethical. However, don't personally think so. 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:06.739 I think that, you know, in every corner of the 00:43:06.739 --> 00:43:09.900 world today, sadly, there is animal exploitation. 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.119 It just takes on different faces sometimes. Sometimes 00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:17.059 it's a little bit more available for public consumption 00:43:17.059 --> 00:43:21.650 and a little bit you know, sometimes hidden away. 00:43:22.050 --> 00:43:25.949 But we've got animals being tested on in really, 00:43:25.969 --> 00:43:30.010 really cruel experiments. And I have no idea 00:43:30.010 --> 00:43:33.750 how these laboratories continue to operate in 00:43:33.750 --> 00:43:35.789 the developed world, right, where we like to 00:43:35.789 --> 00:43:39.710 think that everything is so proper and done properly. 00:43:39.829 --> 00:43:43.090 But we know slaughterhouses are the stuff of 00:43:43.090 --> 00:43:47.030 nightmares here. So yeah, I think it's the same 00:43:47.030 --> 00:43:50.409 everywhere, unfortunately. to some extent. What 00:43:50.409 --> 00:43:52.789 are I guess the organizations out there that 00:43:52.789 --> 00:43:56.250 we should be supporting, that we should be highlighting, 00:43:57.650 --> 00:44:03.269 putting more, you know, on sharing on our social 00:44:03.269 --> 00:44:06.510 media pages, that kind of stuff to to add, you 00:44:06.510 --> 00:44:10.269 know, to shed light on what is happening in terms 00:44:10.269 --> 00:44:14.190 of vegan advocacy directed to Muslim communities. 00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:16.960 Oh, that's a tough one. There are so many great 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:20.579 organizations. Green Islam, of course, has really 00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:24.440 great content. Middle East Vegan Society has 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.039 really great content that's relevant to the community. 00:44:27.659 --> 00:44:31.199 And then there's also investigations done by 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:34.750 non -Muslim organizations or activists that are 00:44:34.750 --> 00:44:37.429 also extremely relevant, like Joy Carpstrong 00:44:37.429 --> 00:44:44.610 did in investigation in Halal slaughterhouses 00:44:44.610 --> 00:44:47.929 very recently, and it's really atrocious stuff 00:44:47.929 --> 00:44:52.070 and really can be used by Muslim advocates to 00:44:52.070 --> 00:44:55.130 highlight what's happening on Halal slaughterhouses. 00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:59.619 or in halal facilities. Same thing with the US, 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.699 there was a investigation there recently. So 00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:06.699 really, I think there's great organizations that 00:45:06.699 --> 00:45:10.699 are within the context of Muslim Islam teachings. 00:45:11.659 --> 00:45:15.239 However, there's also lots of really great stuff 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:19.400 from outside the community. We really do need 00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.960 to be well rounded as activists in order to be 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.159 effective. And so knowing a little bit about 00:45:25.099 --> 00:45:30.320 health and following our beloved Dr. Gregor and 00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.480 other doctors that are doing great work is also 00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:39.880 just as important. About the halal label again, 00:45:40.139 --> 00:45:44.159 coming back quickly to it, I did read about a 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:49.860 debate concerning how slaving the throat of the 00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:53.619 animal was considered particularly cruel. and 00:45:53.619 --> 00:45:56.579 how there are Western governments that thought 00:45:56.579 --> 00:46:00.679 about banning that. And of course, it also concerns 00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:05.539 kosher food in that instance. Do you have an 00:46:05.539 --> 00:46:11.599 opinion on that whole debate? Well, I think that 00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:18.920 I would just like to see animals not be seen 00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:23.679 as products or you know, something to consume 00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:28.340 or less than humans. And so I'm personally a 00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:32.039 bit of an abolitionist. I just don't want to 00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:37.179 see animals used. And so when it comes to the 00:46:37.179 --> 00:46:39.059 format, that can look like various different 00:46:39.059 --> 00:46:44.179 formats. And there's many micro debates going 00:46:44.179 --> 00:46:48.119 on. But for me personally, it's really just about, 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:51.139 let's stop using animals. Let's just leave the 00:46:51.139 --> 00:46:53.480 animals alone. It's not that hard. We really 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:56.480 don't need to eat animals. We don't need to find 00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:00.340 new ways of abusing animals. We're trying to 00:47:00.340 --> 00:47:02.800 fit things into like a box so we can make it 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:04.960 more palatable. And I just don't think that's 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.280 necessary. Does that answer your question? Yes. 00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:12.659 I'd love to know a little bit more, if I'm allowed, 00:47:12.940 --> 00:47:15.340 I'd love to know a little bit more about your 00:47:15.340 --> 00:47:20.099 take on this and your journey to veganism, because 00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:24.460 you also come from a community that is as complex 00:47:24.460 --> 00:47:27.539 as the community I come from, right? So I'd love 00:47:27.539 --> 00:47:31.539 to hear your take as well. Well, I guess what 00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:36.619 I would have to say is, yes, I was exposed to 00:47:36.619 --> 00:47:41.920 sacrificing, you know, The sheep on those important 00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:45.500 holidays and you cannot miss it, you know the 00:47:45.500 --> 00:47:49.760 The streets can get bloody. It's that you know 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:54.880 graphic literally and I did witness also how 00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:59.480 people looked at animals as Objects, you know, 00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:03.679 I remember my neighborhood had lots of stray 00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:06.699 cats and those stray cats were not considered 00:48:07.070 --> 00:48:11.510 People are sentient beings in a way They were 00:48:11.510 --> 00:48:14.030 toys or they were curses, you know if you were 00:48:14.030 --> 00:48:17.230 superstitious and they were the wrong color or 00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:21.150 they were you know, just nuisance and and pests 00:48:21.150 --> 00:48:26.289 and I guess you know It's interesting. I was 00:48:26.289 --> 00:48:30.210 asked the same question in my last episode and 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:34.139 I don't know how come I you know I became vegan 00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:38.019 I feel like veganism chose me instead of me choosing 00:48:38.019 --> 00:48:42.340 veganism because I always had that little voice 00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:46.760 at the back of my mind saying you know this is 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:51.500 weird this this is not this should this is not 00:48:51.500 --> 00:48:55.219 good and and you should be thinking about you 00:48:55.219 --> 00:48:58.420 know getting away from it and And I guess the 00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:01.119 reason why I became vegan was I was never able 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.559 to mute that voice. It stayed and it haunted 00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:09.920 me until I became vegan. So yeah, I do feel I 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:14.679 was guided into it through those natural instincts 00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:23.400 that I was born with. And so, yeah, I was really 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:26.510 grateful to listen to your lecture because then 00:49:26.510 --> 00:49:30.489 I thought I can reach out to some of my relatives 00:49:30.489 --> 00:49:35.849 who are you know Muslims and religious and you 00:49:35.849 --> 00:49:39.269 know show them what you have developed as materialist 00:49:39.269 --> 00:49:43.869 content as arguments concerning halal and other 00:49:43.869 --> 00:49:48.429 related topics and before listening to your lecture 00:49:48.429 --> 00:49:53.289 and by lecture I mean We both attended the AVA 00:49:53.289 --> 00:49:56.550 Summit in Los Angeles a few months ago. Well, 00:49:56.989 --> 00:49:59.929 I never realized that this was missing in my 00:49:59.929 --> 00:50:04.750 life, that I did not have the tools to reach 00:50:04.750 --> 00:50:10.369 those family members, but now I do, which makes 00:50:10.369 --> 00:50:14.570 me feel very grateful for your work. So yeah, 00:50:14.590 --> 00:50:19.199 I guess. I hope I answered your question in some 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.500 way. You did. Thank you. I really appreciated 00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:27.119 hearing that. As a way to end this conversation, 00:50:27.579 --> 00:50:31.219 I was wondering, you know, what maybe passage 00:50:31.219 --> 00:50:34.940 of the Quran or something is saying from one 00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:38.980 of your favorite Islamic teacher or thinker? 00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:41.599 Would you like to share with us that inspires 00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:45.079 you and feed that? heart of compassion that so 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:49.119 many activists like yourself have. Yeah. You 00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:54.480 know, when I was around 1920, I started asking 00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:59.539 questions that because, to be frank, I find a 00:50:59.539 --> 00:51:02.059 lot of the understanding of the Muslim community 00:51:02.059 --> 00:51:07.159 around Islam. unrelatable for myself personally. 00:51:07.780 --> 00:51:12.500 And so I looked into the anti -oppression teachings 00:51:12.500 --> 00:51:15.900 of Islam when I was 19, 20 and found a whole 00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:20.280 new world. And so I often joke that I'm a born 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:24.059 again Muslim because I really did choose Islam. 00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:29.530 I was born into it and taught Islam, but I didn't 00:51:29.530 --> 00:51:32.690 really comprehend the teachings and I didn't 00:51:32.690 --> 00:51:37.070 really comprehend the different ways of understanding 00:51:37.070 --> 00:51:41.610 the teachings until I was much older. And it 00:51:41.610 --> 00:51:47.610 really is animal rights that brought me closer 00:51:47.610 --> 00:51:54.030 to Islam. And I remember the moment that I realized 00:51:54.030 --> 00:51:57.769 I had to go vegan. It was what flashed for me. 00:51:58.139 --> 00:52:01.380 didn't believe what I thought was vegan propaganda 00:52:01.380 --> 00:52:05.519 around dairy and I didn't want to go vegan. I 00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:08.739 was very comfortable being vegetarian, but I 00:52:08.739 --> 00:52:12.480 love milk chocolate and I love desserts, various 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:16.659 cakes and all sorts of, you know, delicious desserts 00:52:16.659 --> 00:52:19.380 I was eating at the time. I did not want to let 00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:21.900 them go. And I, milk chocolate was probably my 00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:24.739 major food group at the time. I just love chocolate 00:52:24.739 --> 00:52:29.139 so, so much. And I have an allergy to dark chocolate, 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.840 but I can't tolerate dark chocolate or even semi 00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:35.679 sweet chocolate. So I didn't want to let go of 00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:37.920 milk chocolate. And I was almost looking for 00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:40.739 reassurance that what I was watching was vegan 00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:43.500 propaganda. And I didn't, I didn't really need 00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:45.559 to, you know, these people with an agenda and 00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:48.539 I didn't really need to worry about making the 00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:54.539 switch to becoming dairy free. And I was, I joined 00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:58.000 a Facebook group of the dairy farmers of Canada. 00:52:58.699 --> 00:53:00.960 And one of them, and I asked them questions about 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:02.980 how they treat their animals and everything they 00:53:02.980 --> 00:53:07.780 said was very reassuring. And I was feeling pretty 00:53:07.780 --> 00:53:11.380 confident that, okay, I'm okay with dairy, dairy 00:53:11.380 --> 00:53:13.760 sounds fine. These people really care about their. 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:16.599 cows and it's a very natural process it's all 00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:18.860 good it's all okay and then one of them said 00:53:18.860 --> 00:53:22.019 well let me send you the dairy the cattle rearing 00:53:22.019 --> 00:53:25.239 manual that's nationalized for canada and i said 00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:27.340 great thinking i'm never going to read this who's 00:53:27.340 --> 00:53:30.179 going to read a cattle rearing manual and yet 00:53:30.179 --> 00:53:34.519 i clicked on the pdf she sent me and i perused 00:53:34.750 --> 00:53:36.969 I just, you know, scroll through with no real 00:53:36.969 --> 00:53:40.409 intention of digesting it really. But somehow 00:53:40.409 --> 00:53:45.750 my eyes landed on a passage that very clinically 00:53:45.750 --> 00:53:50.329 was describing that animals or the cows are very 00:53:50.329 --> 00:53:53.150 emotional creatures. And when their calves are 00:53:53.150 --> 00:53:57.110 extracted, they will it will have an impact on 00:53:57.110 --> 00:53:59.909 their lactation levels because they will feel 00:53:59.909 --> 00:54:04.530 depressed. So if you put all the mother cows 00:54:04.530 --> 00:54:08.369 together, they will comfort each other. And that 00:54:08.369 --> 00:54:14.429 will help raise the lactation level. And in that 00:54:14.429 --> 00:54:19.429 moment, I had an immediate realization in my 00:54:19.429 --> 00:54:22.929 brain, I said, Oh, shoot, I have to go vegan. 00:54:23.570 --> 00:54:27.760 And what What I connected within that second 00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:32.099 with Islam is that in the Quran, it says that 00:54:32.099 --> 00:54:35.340 animals are made in communities just like you, 00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:39.400 and they will be raised to their Lord at the 00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:43.440 end. They will be that essentially what that 00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:46.300 saying is that they will testify on how we treat 00:54:46.300 --> 00:54:50.860 them on Judgment Day. Right. And so we don't 00:54:50.860 --> 00:54:54.179 get to just mistreat animals and pretend it's 00:54:54.179 --> 00:54:57.429 OK. And that passage in the Quran, they're made 00:54:57.429 --> 00:55:01.670 in communities just like you. It was so blazing 00:55:01.670 --> 00:55:04.090 red hot for me that that passage in the Quran 00:55:04.090 --> 00:55:07.670 that I've got to say that's probably my absolute 00:55:07.670 --> 00:55:11.670 favorite. I think that I am now I know that I 00:55:11.670 --> 00:55:15.329 am vegan because it says that in the Quran. That's 00:55:15.329 --> 00:55:17.989 beautiful. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you 00:55:17.989 --> 00:55:21.349 so much for your time and for your great pioneering 00:55:21.349 --> 00:55:24.900 work. I'm so glad that you're part of this movement 00:55:24.900 --> 00:55:29.820 and yes, thank you. Likewise, my friend. Such 00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:31.920 a pleasure meeting you. Thank you for this conversation. 00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:36.000 Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.440 you to share this podcast with the vegans you 00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:42.119 know. Let's encourage more people to take action. 00:55:42.940 --> 00:55:45.679 Again, thank you so much for caring and I will 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:48.219 see you next Tuesday for a new episode.