Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan
and today I challenge you to dream of a world
where 2 billion Muslims, inspired by their faith,
decide to become vegan and embrace the animal
cause. At the forefront of making this dream
a reality is Green Islam, an initiative of kind
world media that reminds Muslims of how modern
consumption and lifestyle practices are incompatible
with the original ethical spirit of Islam. To
discuss this pioneering work, I have with me
none other than the founder of Kind World Media
and Green Islam, Zahra Abbas. I asked Zahra what
to make of Eid al -Adha, an Islamic holiday celebrated
by families with the sacrifice of a sheep. Why?
She thinks halal meat is a scam. how vegan activists
are failing to reach the Muslim world, and much
much more. If you are interested in learning
more about the Islamic world and veganism, you
can also listen to Al Ma 'arri, the world's first
vegan, episode 37, and Leblon Goes Vegan, episode
38 of The Vegan Report. In the meantime, please
subscribe and share this episode with your fellow
vegan. The stories we cover here are meaningful
and deserve your attention. Thank you. Thinking
about our conversation, I remembered another
conversation I had with a human rights activist.
It was years ago and I was talking about veganism
to this activist. And the first thing she said
was, and this was in the context of a discussion
about international relations. And the first
thing she said was, but veganism is a bit culturally
insensitive. And the example she gave was Heydel
at home, you know, uh, and she said, um, pushing
the vegan agenda would be insensitive to people
who celebrate head at half for instance. So I,
I, ask you the same question. Is it culturally
insensitive to push veganism onto people who
celebrate had a lot of time? Maybe also, what
is had a lot of time? I love we're starting off
with the hard hitting stuff. I love it. You know,
if that's a great question, and probably a pretty
common misconception. The thing is, is We have
in Islam quite a few schools of thought. We have
four schools of thoughts under Sunni Islam and
then there's also Shia Islam. The Sunni school
of thought from and I'm just sharing with you
what I'm most familiar with. Out of the four
Sunni schools of thoughts, there's one school
of thought that believes that it is mandatory
or required to slaughter an animal. The rest
do not believe that. The rest believe that we
can we we should commemorate in terms of a sacrifice
because what we know is that a prophet Abraham
may peace be upon him there he was he believed
that he was asked to sacrifice his son that which
was dearest to him and he believed uh that that's
what god was asking of him and his son of course
said okay if if that's what needs be uh however
there was uh the sun was replaced by a ram a
ram that came from the heavens and so yes there
are a group of muslims who believe that we must
slaughter an animal however uh there is also
a different thought, which is that we must slaughter,
we must sacrifice. And what that can look like
is sacrificing, you know, the funds you'd saved
for the next new phone you were going to buy
or the next car you were going to buy, right,
is taking that money or taking time out of your
busy schedule to volunteer. There are many ways
to sacrifice and through charitable giving or
or through a variety of other ways we can engage
in the concept of sacrifice. And it really doesn't
need to be animals. And there are scholars who
have spoken about this. There are videos online.
And so for those that believe it's required,
I would just encourage them to dig a little bit
deeper. And what do you make of the cultural
and sensitive part? I don't think that it's...
culturally insensitive at all. I think that to
be sensitive is to be compassionate, to be kind.
It's interesting that she evoked something from
Islam. that she believed because Islam is all
about peace and compassion and kindness and thoughtfulness
and Islam is rife with instruction on how to
care for animals. It makes today's slaughterhouses
and animal farms pretty much non permissible
in Islam because there are so many rules, extensive
rules and how we're supposed to treat animals.
In fact, within Islam, we have so many teachings
and so many stories that instill in us that one
act of cruelty from a pious Muslim towards an
animal, can lead them to hellfire, whereas a
non -pious person or a non -Muslim or somebody
who may be sinning in other ways, one act of
kindness towards an animal could have all of
their sins forgiven. And so we are a tradition,
we're people that really prioritize caring for
animals. very beautiful. Once you dig into the
teachings and learn the teachings, then I think
it's actually about it's reframed this this perspective
into caring for animals is actually the real
tradition. And it's coming back to to, you know,
the roots by by exercising compassion and care
for animals. Beautiful. And let's get back to
the head at home. So there are some assumptions
that we have as vegans and vegan activists. One
of them is if people had to kill the animal in
order to eat the animal, they would not do it.
And when I see Hed al -Adha, I think this goes
against that profound assumption that we have
on people because it becomes normalized, you
know, to sacrifice an animal and to make it,
you know, a family event, a ceremonial, religious
event with a high significance. And I guess,
you know, the challenge is how do we pierce through
that conditioning to reach people? Did you ever,
you know, think about it? Absolutely. This is
a great... I feel like it's actually someone
from a similar cultural background can understand
this perspective or even have this thought or
consideration because it does seem like in the
sanitized lives that we live here in North America,
for example, we don't... see slaughter, it is
tucked away. And I think the vast majority of
us would be horrified, at least I would like
to believe the vast majority of us would be horrified
if we saw that. I was born in Pakistan, and I
did see slaughter. I was there until I was about
six years old. And I did see slaughter. And it
was distasteful, but it was normal. And it is,
in fact, culturally, as you mentioned, it can
be a family celebration. Folks will bring animals
to their home, decorate the animals, my goodness,
and like before the slaughter, right? It's a
family activity, and that desensitizes children
to the act of slaughter, and it becomes normalized.
And over time, then it's very comfortable for
people to conduct the slaughter themselves, because
there is a sense of detachment or greater purpose
or something along those lines. What's interesting
is that the UN Committee for Child Rights has
recently used child slaughter as an example of
child abuse because it has a traumatic effect
on a child's brain. And so it does make sense
that within those communities where kids are
exposed so early on and taught to become desensitized
to it, it is In fact, they're normal. And it
also makes sense that folks who live and grow
up in these countries where they don't see any
blood or guts or slaughter or anything horrible,
if they as adults are then confronted with the
reality of what's happening in a slaughterhouse
would probably be quite repelled by it. Yes,
I had the same childhood background, you know,
I've seen countless, I think, slaughterings of
sheep. And it's always in the back of my mind,
you know, when vegans talk about, you know, spreading
veganism, that there's a large part of this world's
population that is not that impacted by, I guess,
footage of slaughter or the act of slaughter
itself, you know, that language of compassion
and look how horrible this is doesn't, you know,
sound the same ring the same way. And I feel
that there's something lacking there in terms
of activism, you know, of language and tactics
used to reach more people. Have you brainstormed
any solutions? I think that what's really been
effective for me, at least with advocacy within
the Muslim community, I did, I learned early
on as a vegan, who cared so deeply about extending
the vegan message to folks, I learned early on
that you have to meet people where they are.
And truly the learning the teachings of Islam
around animal rights and me learning about them
brought me closer to Islam. And I think that
when I speak with a Muslim audience that is practicing
Muslim audience that really care about Islam
and Islamic teachings and doing their best to
follow them, I find that I have the easiest time
advocating. to them or with them, because they'll
immediately recognize that Islam is very clear
on animal rights and we're not following those
rules. And so it's almost easier than the person
who doesn't really care. You know, we've all
met those folks who just say, I don't care what's
happening to the animals. And that I find perplexing.
I don't know how to respond to that. You know,
I don't know how to respond to somebody who doesn't
care. But speaking with people who do care, it's
actually immediately we find common ground. And
what I find is lacking there is just simply a
lack of knowledge or all the reasons we know
why people don't necessarily go vegan, which
is, you know, convenience, having a social network,
accessibility, and knowledge is a big piece,
not just knowledge around what's happening. with
animals and all the impacts on from climate to
public health, the grave impacts of animal farming
is such extensive piece to download in terms
of knowledge. But then there's also a big piece
of well, now what do we eat and what do we buy?
Because my folks haven't been thinking about
these things. I know for me, it was a bit of
a learning curve, I had to almost relearn food.
And so there has to be a deep commitment. And
I find it easier to reach with folks who are
really trying to follow Islam well. And I want
to hear those arguments. And I'm really interested
about the halal part. I think lots of people
are intrigued by that concept of halal. But they've
seen that all around, you know, in the city or
something, the supermarket. How did we get there?
How did the Muslim world? get to that place of,
you know, mass slaughters of animals for Adel
Ata or this acceptance, I guess, or tolerance
of slaughterhouses and factory farming if they
are even aware of them existing. How did we get
to that place? I think when we want something,
it becomes really easy to fool ourselves into
something. I think that's why halal today isn't
at all about animal welfare, even though the
halal rules originally came down in regards to
the welfare of animals or the care for animals.
Today it's the vast majority of Muslims that
I have interacted with sincerely believe that
halal means ethical. That halal means the animals
are treated well and it's not from those factory
farms because that wouldn't be halal. I think
the vast majority have simply not thought about
what halal really means and I know for myself
when I was younger I used to go with my family
to a halal slaughterhouse. It's actually not
even a halal slaughterhouse. It's just a chicken
slaughterhouse that had certain days where they
made halal. They made their chicken halal. And
you could go there and buy chicken breast and
chicken wings and ground chicken in bulk. And
so it was the best prices. And you would stand
in line because there was a customer area. specifically
for the day that they would open up to the public
and you would line up and then go place your
order for these boxes and buy them in bulk. And
it's so bizarre that I thought that that was
acceptable. I thought that that meant these animals
were treated well and that, you know, there was
nothing potentially problematic about engaging
in this. And it was only when I came across an
investigation that was done on this particular
slaughterhouse on cruelty, and they were fined,
I believe, for cruelty towards animals, that
I thought, well, how could a halal slaughterhouse
be charged with cruelty? How do those two things,
how can I reconcile that? And so the more I dug
into it, the more I realized, oh, it's not. true,
it's not real. This isn't really halal. This
is, you know, we're getting hoodwinked. And so
I became vegetarian. And I remember having a
couple of thoughts, because I also came across
other investigations and learned that the turkey
producer also selling halal turkey also has been
charged with cruelty. And that's when I said,
okay, I'm going to go vegetarian. And that was
fairly easy. It wasn't very difficult to be vegetarian.
And I found that I had a couple of thoughts here
and there about, well, where does dairy come
from? Or what about eggs? And what are the circumstances
behind that? And are there enough cows? Because
I live in the sub, at the time I lived in the
suburb, but very close to the city. So I don't
really see cows. So I remember thinking, where
are all the cows to make enough milk and do they
just make milk all the or are they are there
that many pregnant cows that are producing all
this milk that's available in every convenience
store and any place i might go or any grocery
store that i might go to where are all the cows
that produce this maybe there's not a whole lot
of milk in the milk right i remember thinking
that um and and making a note in my brain oh
i've got to research this or i've got to look
into this and then I just didn't because I got
distracted with this that or the other and it
wasn't until one day somebody said in front of
me as they were speaking with one of their friends
they said if only people knew that dairy is so
much worse than meat and I remember at that time
thinking what is he talking about and going home
and researching it and and then that was my journey
so I think the vast majority of folks are a not
thinking about it, be particularly in the Muslim
community, convinced that we have divine permission.
And if it's halal, it is divinely done. It's
we're practicing it in a divine way. And so therefore,
nothing could be wrong with this picture. Everything's
tickety -boo. So then who is responsible of that
label, the halal? label. I guess I never asked
myself that question. But is there like a international
organization or something that takes care of
that? There are a lot of certifying bodies. And
as far as I understand, they're localized. So
Canada has our own UK has their own US has their
own and then within the countries, there can
be different certification organizations. So
there's not just one. When I was younger and
there were less Muslims here in the greater Toronto
area, there was, I believe, one main one, but
now there's multiple. And so that's the thing
is just about anyone can form a certification
body and say, well, this is what to get our certificate,
you have to meet this criteria. And when you
go on their websites and look up what that criteria
is, you'll find that animal welfare is generally
missing from the equation. There was one organization
or one butcher butcher place that was serving
grass fed pasture raised organic, hand -slaughtered
meat. And I remember associating that with the
most ethical available. And, you know, this must
be the humane farms. This is the true halal,
I thought. And I remember asking the assistant
manager of this butcher shop when I was picking
up some chicken from there, how much space the
chicken has when they say grass fed or pasture
raised and all that. What does that mean when
it comes to the life of a chicken or the life
of a cow or a goat? And he said, well, you know,
they have enough space. And he was quite dismissive.
He said, oh, yeah, yeah, they have enough space.
And I said, well, how much space do they have?
And he said, oh, you know, it's enough space
for them to spread their wings. And in that moment,
I thought, oh, this is another form of us having
the wool pulled over our eyes, excuse the non
-vegan expression there. But it certainly was
a moment of It was an opportunity at that time
for me to either say, I'm going to shrug this
under the rug. I'm going to hide it under the
rug. It's not my responsibility because they're
telling me it's ethical. So now it's really their
responsibility if they're not doing it right.
I'm doing my best. Or the opportunity to say,
I'm not okay with this. I cannot support this.
And I really am so grateful for the investigation
videos that I happen to watch because had I not
seen the extreme amount of cruelty within the
slaughterhouses and within animal farming in
general, even on the so -called humane farms,
I don't know if I would have had the empathy
or the connection with the animals to make such
a big jump because in our community, it really
is. I mean, in society as a whole, but then particularly
in the Muslim community, it's a whole host of
very different objections that you are faced
with continuously. So as a A vegan person in
the broader society, you're asked a lot about
your health, right? Like, where do you get your
protein? What about your B12? What about calcium?
And, you know, aren't animals here for us to
eat? And those kind of concepts. But within the
Muslim community, there's a lot of, but God said
you can eat animals. Are you defying God? Right?
And so it gets a lot more complicated within
that context. And I'm sure so many, so many different
communities have their own version of that. Well,
that's the I think the most interesting part,
you know how do you navigate those objections
and how you know because I I feel like for many
people you would be the first person that ever
mentioned veganism or Has denounced, you know
what's happening with the halal business to them
like you're breaking the news I don't know of
many other, and you tell me of many other vegan
advocacy initiatives directed to Muslim communities.
So yeah, how do you navigate those objections?
There are quite a few in Muslim countries, wonderful
organizations like the Middle East Vegan Society
that are doing really great advocacy and really
great community building. I think that everyone's
kind of working within their geographical location
for the most part. And, you know, because we're
such a diverse community, there's about two billion
of us on planet Earth, almost quarter of the
world's population. And so the vegan Muslim activists
that I know or Muslim adjacent activists that
I know are advocating in so many different languages,
in so many different Muslim -predominant countries.
I think we're slowly growing. I think as more
people become aware, more people are making the
decision to leap into veganism. It's a whole
different experience to then become a full -time
advocate. or a regular advocate, right? Many
people start practicing themselves, but aren't
necessarily comfortable expressing in front of
others. And it really is a lot of, it takes a
lot of time and work to accumulate all of the
reasons so that we can be effective advocates.
So you do have to learn a little bit about environmental
science and you have to learn about various slaughterhouses,
and you have to learn about health, so many things
about health, right? And so I think it's not
easy, but slowly and surely we're getting there.
When I welcome religious leaders on this podcast,
I always ask, you know, what is the value of
making the religious argument for veganism? So
I ask you the same question. The religious argument.
Wow, okay. It's a great question. I'm sure you've
gotten so many great answers. I think the religious
argument is fairly simple. It says in the Quran,
yes, we are, Muslims are given permission within
the Quran to eat animals, specific animals. However,
it also says in the Quran that we can eat that
which is halal and tayyab, which means permissible.
and pure. And tayyab, pure, it means both morally
as well as physically. Now we turn to the hadith,
the sayings of Prophet Muhammad, may peace be
upon him, and the understanding of his lifestyle
to then understand what that really means. What
does it mean that we can eat halal and tayyab?
And what that means is that we cannot slaughter
an animal in front of another, that they cannot
be distressed. They cannot see blood, smell blood,
even hear another slaughtered. They cannot, they
should not see the knife before being slaughtered.
There is a specific way that things are allowed
and in today's animal farming that way is nearly
impossible. It's impossible. We cannot separate
babies from their mothers. And animal farming
depends on that. There is a lot of interference.
When we speak about the concept of pure, we are
breeding animals and there is human interference
and involvement in cruel ways to breed animals
into existence. The Quran speaks about us destroying
destruction and corruption of the earth, land
and seas, and that is precisely what we're doing
with animal farming. We are not supposed to uproot
a tree in battle, and yet we are uprooting so
many trees for a very, very cruel industry. So
there is immense responsibility on Muslims to
be stewards and vice regents. And we are simply
unable to meet that requirement of us, if we
are engaging in any way with animal farming today,
because of the environmental impact, because
of the public health impact, and most importantly,
because of what we're doing to the animals directly,
we're simply not allowed to do those things.
Do you feel like this type of argument for a
Muslim is more convincing? and impactful than
the usual arguments we hear from, let's say,
secular vegans. You know, I get that feeling
that the religious lane in the vegan movement
and the animal rights activism space is not really
that much explored, that there isn't that much
invested when the potential is so great. What
do you make of that? You know, we do the best
we can with what's available to us. And I think
that when it comes to it might be a bit repetitive,
but really, when people are following religion,
they're interested in following religion. And
so when they see that Something opposes their
understanding of that religion. I think it's
much easier to reach that demographic than the
average person who says, I don't particularly
care about the animals or I don't really particularly
care about religious teachings. it's harder to
say to them, you should care, right? It's almost
easier to reach the people who say, I already
care, and I'm trying to be a good person. And
this is my understanding of trying to be a good
person. If that makes sense, you're then able
to disrupt that a little bit and say, well, is
it good? Is it acceptable? Is it okay? And when
when we bring to attention where halal rules
came from, you know, 1500 years ago, It was a
food desert. When Islam came, it was a literal
desert. There were no grocery stores. There was
no import -export. And even at that time, Prophet
Muhammad, may peace be upon him, only ate animals
once in a while. Some sources might say once
every two weeks. Some will say once every two
months. Some will say on a very rare occasion.
everybody agrees that he was plant forward. And
so it's, you know, once you're able to poke a
hole in the concept of what halal is today, and
poke a hole in people's understanding of, or
association of halal with ethics, then it's fairly
simple to convince them to be more plant based,
at least it's a bit of a learning curve, you
have to relearn food, right? So it's difficult
and family and what everybody's used to eating
and, you know, social occasions, it all becomes
a little bit difficult. But what people find
easier is to then start shifting their diet to
a more plant forward diet. And I've had so many
folks express that they'll try. they'll try buying
meat alternatives and try cooking with them and
say you know this meat alternative worked out
well but this one didn't work out so well so
I still need to find a replacement for this and
this or folks will say stop eating red meat and
you know next I'll try to reduce my intake of
other animal things that I'm eating but that
I find to be an easy objective to get to so it's
the best kind of advocacy that I personally have
participated in because it's just easier. We're
just on the same page about where we want to
go. Do you get the feeling sometimes that there
should be more Muslim vegans out there that you're
far too, you know, of a small group? And what
do you attribute that to? I absolutely do think
that we should have a lot more Muslim vegans
and I attribute the lack of vegan activism, advocacy
and engagement in our community with the fact
that there is an overwhelming amount of halal
now available and this overwhelming concept of
halal being associated with ethics, which we
know is not. So I think that's really the culprit
at hand. And I think dismantling that would go
a long way for us. I have met people who will
say things like, well, it's really our duties
to buy halal. So if the halal folks are hoodwinking
us, then then it's their responsibility. But
it's a very rare person who will say something
like that. The vast majority immediately will
say, oh, this is not OK. And people want to express
their care in the way their actions are. And
so I think we'll get there over time. But I think
that we have our work cut out for us. I think
that we need more activists. understanding how
to communicate with the Muslim community. We
need more Muslim advocacy, and we need a more
engaged Muslim advocacy. And I think that would
help light the fire, if you will, a little bit
more effectively or faster. Help us scale. Yeah.
Yes, I mean, going back to that. Comment of being
culturally sensitive. I do feel that That argument
should be made by a Muslim to an a fellow Muslim
and it would be more effective than from a you
know your standard vegan to a Muslim although
I do think that you know the Your standard vegan
who is doing the cube of truth out there should
be aware that there is an argument to be made
with, you know, Muslim vegans, and that, you
know, there should be something like a flyer
with all of the things you said about halal,
for instance, that they could distribute to people.
I agree. I think that, you know, while typically
I would say folks, it's really important for
the message that folks are receiving from a specific
community to be coming from within the community.
However, in this case, animal farming is just
so extensive and we just don't have the halal
industry so extensive and non -Muslims are selling
halal in order to capture the Muslim audience
because other consumers don't necessarily care.
if the Boston pizza chain here is serving halal
meat, they'll just eat it. But to target the
Muslim community and make sure they're also eating
there, they'll serve halal meat. And so we have
a really big halal meat problem that is far more
extensive. It's far more pervasive and it's just
out there, right? It's a little bit unhindered.
We've had health gurus in the past like Kevin
Trudeau in his book speak about how halal meat
is a more clean or healthier meat. So we have
a problem of non -Muslims consuming and selling
halal meat. And so we don't have a choice. We
need to really light the passion within vegan
activists to be able to effectively reach Muslims.
Because otherwise, you're missing a quarter of
the world's demographic, right? And so when I
speak with our fellow animal lovers and folks
who advocate for animals regularly, I ask them
or encourage them to arm themselves with knowledge
as I attempt to do. And I know they do as well,
but I want them to arm themselves with knowledge,
specifically in regards to religion as well,
because there are a whole ton of people who follow
religious teachings. when it comes to the way
they consume animals. And the thing is, is you
don't necessarily need to learn the religion
yourself or learn all the finer points of it.
You can just ask questions. What does halal mean?
How do you know that halal animals are coming
from farms that aren't like these slaughterhouses?
Can you, what evidence do they provide of that?
If it is in fact coming from this kind of a slaughterhouse
and it's labeled halal, is that permissible for
you to eat? There's so many questions and that
can help, it's deep canvassing work really, is
it can really help people. consider and think
about what halal means. And there's a couple
of street activists that do such a great job
and their YouTube videos can go a long way to
help inspire our fellow vegan advocates as well
to speak to the Muslim audience. One of them
is Earthling Ed. There is a bunch of videos with
if we just look up his videos on YouTube with
vegan and halal, you'll find a couple of debates.
And then there's also Joey Carbstrong, who's
done really great work. And as a non -Muslim,
he's able to communicate so well with the Muslim
audience. Both of these gentlemen do a really,
really great job. And I think all vegan advocates
need to be able to do that. And some of the vegan
content can be easily repackaged to reach the
Muslim audience, but some has to be mindful that,
for example, pig slaughterhouses, doesn't reach
the Muslim audience. And so just making sure
that when we are doing street activism, it's
of course great to include pigs, but it's also
really important to also make sure that there's
content with cows and chickens. And if you have
material on halal slaughterhouses or footage
from halal slaughterhouses, that can just go
a really long way in being able to connect with
folks. What about the language barrier? I know
that George Hayek from Lebanese Vegan, he posts
a lot of videos and stuff like that with Arabic
subtitles. But there is that problem too, I guess,
to reach those two billion Muslim people in the
world. I think the funders are doing great job
these days in reaching community members who
are advocating within their own communities.
And so, you know, somebody in Bangladesh is going
to make it relevant to their community and George
is going to make it relevant to his community.
I tend to stick to the diaspora community, Muslim
leaders. and Muslim community members in Western
countries who speak English. And so I think we
need to just spread out in the areas where we
are the experts and really concentrate on those
and just make sure that our fellow Muslims in
other parts of the world are also empowered and
we're collaborating in great ways so that we
can help achieve the goals that we're all interested
in achieving. We talked a lot about the food
part, the diet part, but what about the rest?
You know, the zoo, I know that if you visit some
Middle Eastern countries, even North African
countries, they will put you on the camel and
you will visit the Phoenix in cages and stuff
like that. What about that part of animal expedition
that is not about diet. I when when I'm engaging
in advocacy, I do speak about animal testing
or you know, accessing or just making sure that
our purchases are more aligned with ethics. So
cruelty free makeup fee and makeup. And I find
that many people tend to when they're presented
with an ethical option, they tend to go for the
ethical option. As but oftentimes, it'll be so
in a way where they're not compromising quality.
So if if there are ethical, products, they'll
tend to lean a little bit more towards the ethical
products. There are many folks I know who are
not vegan who don't go to the zoo because they
don't like that animals are in cages or confined.
And I think that there is, you know, just like
we do advocacy outside the Muslim community.
It's quite the same within the Muslim community.
There's many people who love animals and care
for animals and care for their well -being. And
so when we position, you know, look at what's
happened to the animals that are confined, look
how deeply traumatized they are, look at what
humans are doing to animals, many of them upon
understanding that the animal is being hurt in
question, they will often express care. And there's
of course, many who just simply don't care. So
it's like activism in any community. And same
goes for like wool. I remember in a group chat
when my friends were speaking about wool and
they were saying, oh, wool, you know, it's...
really cold, and we've got to get some wool socks.
And I said, Well, look, here's, you know, an
investigation in wool farms, and this is what's
happening on the wool farms. And they were like,
Oh, no, okay, what else can we get? And so there
are, there's definitely a desire for people often
to do better, when they know better. Do you find
that there is a segment of the Muslim community,
or maybe a country that does better than others
in terms of animal welfare, even veganism. Veganism,
sure. We have the data that shows us where plant
-based options are more available and more people
are consuming plant -based and all of that, or
ethical. However, don't personally think so.
I think that, you know, in every corner of the
world today, sadly, there is animal exploitation.
It just takes on different faces sometimes. Sometimes
it's a little bit more available for public consumption
and a little bit you know, sometimes hidden away.
But we've got animals being tested on in really,
really cruel experiments. And I have no idea
how these laboratories continue to operate in
the developed world, right, where we like to
think that everything is so proper and done properly.
But we know slaughterhouses are the stuff of
nightmares here. So yeah, I think it's the same
everywhere, unfortunately. to some extent. What
are I guess the organizations out there that
we should be supporting, that we should be highlighting,
putting more, you know, on sharing on our social
media pages, that kind of stuff to to add, you
know, to shed light on what is happening in terms
of vegan advocacy directed to Muslim communities.
Oh, that's a tough one. There are so many great
organizations. Green Islam, of course, has really
great content. Middle East Vegan Society has
really great content that's relevant to the community.
And then there's also investigations done by
non -Muslim organizations or activists that are
also extremely relevant, like Joy Carpstrong
did in investigation in Halal slaughterhouses
very recently, and it's really atrocious stuff
and really can be used by Muslim advocates to
highlight what's happening on Halal slaughterhouses.
or in halal facilities. Same thing with the US,
there was a investigation there recently. So
really, I think there's great organizations that
are within the context of Muslim Islam teachings.
However, there's also lots of really great stuff
from outside the community. We really do need
to be well rounded as activists in order to be
effective. And so knowing a little bit about
health and following our beloved Dr. Gregor and
other doctors that are doing great work is also
just as important. About the halal label again,
coming back quickly to it, I did read about a
debate concerning how slaving the throat of the
animal was considered particularly cruel. and
how there are Western governments that thought
about banning that. And of course, it also concerns
kosher food in that instance. Do you have an
opinion on that whole debate? Well, I think that
I would just like to see animals not be seen
as products or you know, something to consume
or less than humans. And so I'm personally a
bit of an abolitionist. I just don't want to
see animals used. And so when it comes to the
format, that can look like various different
formats. And there's many micro debates going
on. But for me personally, it's really just about,
let's stop using animals. Let's just leave the
animals alone. It's not that hard. We really
don't need to eat animals. We don't need to find
new ways of abusing animals. We're trying to
fit things into like a box so we can make it
more palatable. And I just don't think that's
necessary. Does that answer your question? Yes.
I'd love to know a little bit more, if I'm allowed,
I'd love to know a little bit more about your
take on this and your journey to veganism, because
you also come from a community that is as complex
as the community I come from, right? So I'd love
to hear your take as well. Well, I guess what
I would have to say is, yes, I was exposed to
sacrificing, you know, The sheep on those important
holidays and you cannot miss it, you know the
The streets can get bloody. It's that you know
graphic literally and I did witness also how
people looked at animals as Objects, you know,
I remember my neighborhood had lots of stray
cats and those stray cats were not considered
People are sentient beings in a way They were
toys or they were curses, you know if you were
superstitious and they were the wrong color or
they were you know, just nuisance and and pests
and I guess you know It's interesting. I was
asked the same question in my last episode and
I don't know how come I you know I became vegan
I feel like veganism chose me instead of me choosing
veganism because I always had that little voice
at the back of my mind saying you know this is
weird this this is not this should this is not
good and and you should be thinking about you
know getting away from it and And I guess the
reason why I became vegan was I was never able
to mute that voice. It stayed and it haunted
me until I became vegan. So yeah, I do feel I
was guided into it through those natural instincts
that I was born with. And so, yeah, I was really
grateful to listen to your lecture because then
I thought I can reach out to some of my relatives
who are you know Muslims and religious and you
know show them what you have developed as materialist
content as arguments concerning halal and other
related topics and before listening to your lecture
and by lecture I mean We both attended the AVA
Summit in Los Angeles a few months ago. Well,
I never realized that this was missing in my
life, that I did not have the tools to reach
those family members, but now I do, which makes
me feel very grateful for your work. So yeah,
I guess. I hope I answered your question in some
way. You did. Thank you. I really appreciated
hearing that. As a way to end this conversation,
I was wondering, you know, what maybe passage
of the Quran or something is saying from one
of your favorite Islamic teacher or thinker?
Would you like to share with us that inspires
you and feed that? heart of compassion that so
many activists like yourself have. Yeah. You
know, when I was around 1920, I started asking
questions that because, to be frank, I find a
lot of the understanding of the Muslim community
around Islam. unrelatable for myself personally.
And so I looked into the anti -oppression teachings
of Islam when I was 19, 20 and found a whole
new world. And so I often joke that I'm a born
again Muslim because I really did choose Islam.
I was born into it and taught Islam, but I didn't
really comprehend the teachings and I didn't
really comprehend the different ways of understanding
the teachings until I was much older. And it
really is animal rights that brought me closer
to Islam. And I remember the moment that I realized
I had to go vegan. It was what flashed for me.
didn't believe what I thought was vegan propaganda
around dairy and I didn't want to go vegan. I
was very comfortable being vegetarian, but I
love milk chocolate and I love desserts, various
cakes and all sorts of, you know, delicious desserts
I was eating at the time. I did not want to let
them go. And I, milk chocolate was probably my
major food group at the time. I just love chocolate
so, so much. And I have an allergy to dark chocolate,
but I can't tolerate dark chocolate or even semi
sweet chocolate. So I didn't want to let go of
milk chocolate. And I was almost looking for
reassurance that what I was watching was vegan
propaganda. And I didn't, I didn't really need
to, you know, these people with an agenda and
I didn't really need to worry about making the
switch to becoming dairy free. And I was, I joined
a Facebook group of the dairy farmers of Canada.
And one of them, and I asked them questions about
how they treat their animals and everything they
said was very reassuring. And I was feeling pretty
confident that, okay, I'm okay with dairy, dairy
sounds fine. These people really care about their.
cows and it's a very natural process it's all
good it's all okay and then one of them said
well let me send you the dairy the cattle rearing
manual that's nationalized for canada and i said
great thinking i'm never going to read this who's
going to read a cattle rearing manual and yet
i clicked on the pdf she sent me and i perused
I just, you know, scroll through with no real
intention of digesting it really. But somehow
my eyes landed on a passage that very clinically
was describing that animals or the cows are very
emotional creatures. And when their calves are
extracted, they will it will have an impact on
their lactation levels because they will feel
depressed. So if you put all the mother cows
together, they will comfort each other. And that
will help raise the lactation level. And in that
moment, I had an immediate realization in my
brain, I said, Oh, shoot, I have to go vegan.
And what What I connected within that second
with Islam is that in the Quran, it says that
animals are made in communities just like you,
and they will be raised to their Lord at the
end. They will be that essentially what that
saying is that they will testify on how we treat
them on Judgment Day. Right. And so we don't
get to just mistreat animals and pretend it's
OK. And that passage in the Quran, they're made
in communities just like you. It was so blazing
red hot for me that that passage in the Quran
that I've got to say that's probably my absolute
favorite. I think that I am now I know that I
am vegan because it says that in the Quran. That's
beautiful. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you
so much for your time and for your great pioneering
work. I'm so glad that you're part of this movement
and yes, thank you. Likewise, my friend. Such
a pleasure meeting you. Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite
you to share this podcast with the vegans you
know. Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will
see you next Tuesday for a new episode.