WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.839 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan, 00:00:03.299 --> 00:00:06.960 and before you attend your next pro animal protest, 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.400 listen to today's episode on why you could be 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:14.900 doing more harm than good, and how to make sure 00:00:14.900 --> 00:00:19.140 your protest has the impact you want it to have. 00:00:19.660 --> 00:00:23.379 To discuss this topic, I have with me Bjorn Olofsson, 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:26.719 a researcher, science communicator and animal 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:29.859 rights advocate who has recently written for 00:00:29.859 --> 00:00:33.700 Phonalytics, the science of protest and demonstrations. 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:37.500 Visit the episode notes to connect with Bjorn. 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.299 You will also find there a link to the Phonalytics 00:00:41.299 --> 00:00:45.539 article, which is a must read. For the sake of 00:00:45.539 --> 00:00:48.700 being a more effective movement, Please share 00:00:48.700 --> 00:00:53.820 this episode far and wide. This is an important 00:00:53.820 --> 00:00:58.039 PSA episode on the science behind protesting 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:04.760 effectively. We have all of this data, all of 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:08.500 those studies, all of those, you know, analysis 00:01:08.500 --> 00:01:14.439 of what are the best methods to make progress 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:18.540 in the pro animal space. and we're not using 00:01:18.540 --> 00:01:24.319 those resources. They're just ignored and activists 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:29.060 seem to be completely indifferent to them. How 00:01:29.060 --> 00:01:31.480 do you explain that? That's a great question. 00:01:31.819 --> 00:01:34.019 This is the question that sometimes keeps me 00:01:34.019 --> 00:01:37.099 up at night, right? It's like, why are people 00:01:37.099 --> 00:01:40.420 defaulting to strategies that aren't effective 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:45.739 or at least aren't proven to be effective? What 00:01:45.739 --> 00:01:51.180 I come back to Is we tend to use strategies that 00:01:51.180 --> 00:01:55.280 we think would work on us. So I'm assuming most 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:59.359 people listening to this are vegan and or, you 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:01.620 know, vegetarian or flexitarian or whatever your 00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:03.760 diet is or whatever you've done to benefit animals. 00:02:04.659 --> 00:02:07.879 You likely have thought back in your life about 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:11.099 the things that have convinced you to change 00:02:11.099 --> 00:02:12.979 your lifestyle and change your diet and change 00:02:12.979 --> 00:02:18.490 your behavior. And then instinctually, you take 00:02:18.490 --> 00:02:21.370 those ideas and then try to work on other people 00:02:21.370 --> 00:02:26.229 the same way. This doesn't work for two reasons. 00:02:27.849 --> 00:02:31.449 Number one, most people are actually really bad 00:02:31.449 --> 00:02:33.750 at understanding their own motivations. This 00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:37.090 is just true for everybody. I am as well. And 00:02:37.090 --> 00:02:39.610 when we try to trace our personal vegan journeys, 00:02:40.069 --> 00:02:44.849 we probably are going to look at very big salient 00:02:44.849 --> 00:02:49.240 moments And ignore some of the smaller aspects 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.240 that have transitioned us. So for example, I'm 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:55.180 going to make this up. Imagine you're thinking 00:02:55.180 --> 00:02:57.819 about watching the documentary Earthlings. And 00:02:57.819 --> 00:03:00.000 for you, this is huge like this transition to 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.400 overnight. But then you might not think about 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.580 the fact that you had a conversation a month 00:03:06.580 --> 00:03:08.919 before you watched Earthlings with a friend who 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:10.919 convinced you to watch it. That conversation 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:13.479 might not be part of your journey. Then you might 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:15.659 not think about the week after you watched Earthlings, 00:03:16.139 --> 00:03:18.539 you chatted with a vegan friend who gave you 00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:20.939 a lot of recipes. That might not be part of your 00:03:20.939 --> 00:03:23.120 journey. You might not think about your access 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:25.740 to vegan foods in a supermarket, even though 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:28.419 if you aren't able to find good foods nearby 00:03:28.419 --> 00:03:30.840 you, you might have been less likely to maintain 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.180 your diet change. You might not have thought 00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:36.419 about the fact that friends and family might 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:39.139 have reacted differently. If when you told people 00:03:39.139 --> 00:03:42.139 you're doing this diet change and they were either 00:03:42.139 --> 00:03:45.680 neutral or supportive of you that helps you maintain 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.060 it but if you happen to have a social group that 00:03:49.060 --> 00:03:53.159 was dismissive or rude. That could have turned 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:56.300 against you so we think of this big moment like 00:03:56.300 --> 00:04:01.639 a documentary or or a protest or. a really meaningful 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.719 Ted talk or whatever it happens to be. And we 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:05.699 ignore a lot of these subtler moments that guide 00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:08.219 us on the way to changing our behavior and changing 00:04:08.219 --> 00:04:16.360 our lifestyles. And another reason is that motivations 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:20.959 we have are often not had by other types of people. 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.959 So vegans tend to be more open minded. A lot 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:30.139 of the times vegans tend to care less about what 00:04:30.139 --> 00:04:32.259 other people think of them because we are going 00:04:32.259 --> 00:04:33.980 against the curve, going against the grain a 00:04:33.980 --> 00:04:38.279 little bit. But for a lot of people, social cohesion 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.980 fitting into their culture, into their surroundings 00:04:41.980 --> 00:04:44.600 is very valuable to them. Even if they might 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.220 not say that on a survey, that is something that 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.319 guides their motivations and guides their behavior. 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:52.860 And we have to reconcile with the fact that a 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:58.199 lot of people but we might be different than 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.379 the people we're talking to psychologically. 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:02.800 This is not to say we're better or anything or 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:04.699 like we're inherently more valuable. It's just 00:05:04.699 --> 00:05:07.740 there are differences. And when we think about 00:05:07.740 --> 00:05:11.019 what worked on us, that's not going to work all 00:05:11.019 --> 00:05:14.600 the time. So instead of looking back, we need 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.240 to be looking at evidence, at data. We need to 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.759 be looking to the future. It's not what has worked 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:23.759 on me. That's not the good question. The question 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.920 is, What methods have been tested and will work 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.279 on other people to make them change their behavior 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:36.240 or change their attitudes? Fascinating. And it 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:41.160 resonates with me so much. I've had I was interviewed 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:46.379 recently by Veg Network in Canada and they asked, 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.079 you know, the traditional question, what made 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.779 you go vegan? And I will, you know, give myself 00:05:52.779 --> 00:05:55.279 a pat on the back because I said, I don't know. 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.800 I really don't know. You know, multiple reasons, 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:05.639 most likely, but I really don't know. Okay. Why 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:11.360 protest? Why, you know, people think about protest 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:17.600 as I feel a default way of giving, you know, 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:22.149 shape to their activism. Why is this the traditional, 00:06:22.149 --> 00:06:25.589 you know, default way of thinking about activism? 00:06:26.589 --> 00:06:29.889 Great question. We often associate activism and 00:06:29.889 --> 00:06:32.870 protest so frequently that, you know, if you 00:06:32.870 --> 00:06:36.050 do Google image searches or things like that, 00:06:36.129 --> 00:06:38.769 and you search activist, you will see a protester, 00:06:39.069 --> 00:06:41.430 even though I would say the majority of activism 00:06:41.430 --> 00:06:45.470 is often behind the scenes or in different corridors 00:06:45.470 --> 00:06:48.850 of power. Lobbying could be activism, a conversation 00:06:48.850 --> 00:06:51.269 could be activism, anything like that. But we 00:06:51.269 --> 00:06:54.290 associate protests so much with traditional activism 00:06:54.290 --> 00:06:58.610 because it just feels right in a way. You know, 00:06:58.610 --> 00:07:00.550 you're on the streets, you're shouting, you're 00:07:00.550 --> 00:07:03.110 making a sign. Maybe you're chanting, you're 00:07:03.110 --> 00:07:07.149 singing, you're having, you're really, it's the 00:07:07.149 --> 00:07:09.529 most visible type of pro, this most visible type 00:07:09.529 --> 00:07:12.910 of activism that exists. i would say i think 00:07:12.910 --> 00:07:14.870 most people would agree on that it is the most 00:07:14.870 --> 00:07:19.069 visible the most salient it's purposefully in 00:07:19.069 --> 00:07:21.449 your face designed to make you question things 00:07:21.449 --> 00:07:28.389 and i think many people when they start activism 00:07:28.389 --> 00:07:35.230 don't have access to systemic ways of changing 00:07:35.230 --> 00:07:38.579 power dynamics So if you're trying to be an activist, 00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:41.540 maybe you're in a university, you're young, you're 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:44.699 trying to figure out a career path. Not all not 00:07:44.699 --> 00:07:48.459 all activists are like this, but a lot are. What 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:50.660 are you going to do? Are you going to be able 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:53.300 to walk into the CEO's office at Tyson and start 00:07:53.300 --> 00:07:56.500 talking to them about cage free reforms or talk 00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:59.779 to a member of Congress or Parliament about shifting 00:07:59.779 --> 00:08:03.930 your dietary guidelines? No, that just seems 00:08:03.930 --> 00:08:06.949 impossible to you. What can you do? You can post 00:08:06.949 --> 00:08:09.350 on social media. That's another avenue or you 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:11.990 could stage a protest because these are the options 00:08:11.990 --> 00:08:14.610 you have available to you when you're young and 00:08:14.610 --> 00:08:17.149 passionate and I want to be clear. I think this 00:08:17.149 --> 00:08:20.970 is really good. I think having forms of activism 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:23.410 that work regardless of if you've been working 00:08:23.410 --> 00:08:26.610 in NGOs for 20 years or if you're just starting 00:08:26.610 --> 00:08:28.689 out and are passionate, that's a good thing. 00:08:30.009 --> 00:08:33.009 But because protest is so visible and so accessible 00:08:33.009 --> 00:08:37.610 to younger and more inexperienced activists, 00:08:37.929 --> 00:08:41.190 it is often associated entirely with activism 00:08:41.190 --> 00:08:46.950 itself. And what I'm trying to do is some people 00:08:46.950 --> 00:08:50.509 have interpreted my work as saying that I don't 00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:54.049 like protest or I think it's ineffective. I think 00:08:54.049 --> 00:08:56.870 protest needs to be used more critically. I think 00:08:56.870 --> 00:08:59.360 we need to be thinking. when we use protest, 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.519 which I think is one of the inherent contradictions 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:05.019 here, because protest is so passionate. It's 00:09:05.019 --> 00:09:07.960 so energetic. It's so over the top sometimes. 00:09:10.179 --> 00:09:16.539 But passion needs focus if it's going to make 00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:19.399 long term change. And if you're a young person 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.240 or any person thinking about protest, there are 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:25.000 some ways we could do this. We could be doing 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.500 this more effectively. I would also add that 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:32.519 it is cheap. You know, even doing this podcast, 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:37.100 I consider that as activism, but I had to spend 00:09:37.100 --> 00:09:40.919 money on microphone on recording devices on all 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:45.320 of that. So it's not reachable to maybe a younger. 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:48.850 pro -animal activists, someone who has a tight 00:09:48.850 --> 00:09:51.809 budget. But protests are cheap. You just need 00:09:51.809 --> 00:09:54.389 to walk in the streets with a cardboard. It's 00:09:54.389 --> 00:09:59.490 accessible to everyone, every wallet. Do you 00:09:59.490 --> 00:10:02.850 feel that protests are also the default mode 00:10:02.850 --> 00:10:07.690 of doing activism because they're more left -wing? 00:10:08.250 --> 00:10:13.370 Because I started thinking what conservative 00:10:13.370 --> 00:10:19.210 right -wing group is doing protest and I have 00:10:19.210 --> 00:10:24.509 a few Notable examples in mind, but I don't feel 00:10:24.509 --> 00:10:28.730 it's common to the culture of more conservative 00:10:28.730 --> 00:10:32.250 leaning people to go out in the streets and you 00:10:32.250 --> 00:10:37.169 know to protest but I do feel it is more in the 00:10:37.169 --> 00:10:41.129 culture of maybe left -leaning people and thinking 00:10:41.129 --> 00:10:45.529 that most vegans and pro -animal people are left 00:10:45.529 --> 00:10:52.269 -wing, you would expect them to be more attracted 00:10:52.269 --> 00:10:57.850 to protesting. So I agree that protest is often 00:10:57.850 --> 00:11:00.330 more utilized by left -leaning groups, but it 00:11:00.330 --> 00:11:02.850 definitely is a tactic on the right. A lot of 00:11:02.850 --> 00:11:05.830 the research I looked at was examining the Tea 00:11:05.830 --> 00:11:09.330 Party protests in the United States around 2009, 00:11:09.909 --> 00:11:12.590 which is a right, very conservative organization. 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.639 if you're not familiar. And we can see protests 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:17.820 from right -wing groups in many parts of the 00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:20.820 world as well. I would agree it's more common 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:24.639 on the left. And the reason why is we can think 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:27.100 about the actual ideologies of the left and the 00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:31.500 right. The right is conservative. Let's think 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:33.980 about that word. They want to conserve what we 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:36.500 have. They value tradition. They value the past. 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.799 They value history. Maybe it's an imagined past, 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.629 but it still is the idea of the past. Whereas 00:11:43.629 --> 00:11:46.509 left leaning progressives value progression. 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:49.289 They want to change things and move differently 00:11:49.289 --> 00:11:53.190 into the future. It's a lot easier to protest 00:11:53.190 --> 00:11:56.169 for change than to protest for the status quo. 00:11:57.149 --> 00:11:58.629 I mean, just imagine it. You're going to go out 00:11:58.629 --> 00:12:01.149 in the street, have a sign that says, you know, 00:12:01.169 --> 00:12:04.049 let's make this the same as it is right now. 00:12:04.049 --> 00:12:08.690 Like it doesn't really work rhetorically. You're 00:12:08.690 --> 00:12:11.990 protesting to not change things. It just doesn't 00:12:12.059 --> 00:12:17.659 lend itself well to that form of ideology. And 00:12:17.659 --> 00:12:20.879 then we can think about right -leaning protests 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.320 that have either been successful or very salient. 00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:26.559 And those are right -leaning protests that have 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.620 advocated for change. The Tea Party in the United 00:12:29.620 --> 00:12:35.220 States, Brexit in the UK, for example, these 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:37.120 are types of things that are trying to change 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.700 and go back as opposed to maintaining the status 00:12:39.700 --> 00:12:44.580 quo. So that's I think the key difference here, 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:47.220 vegans and rights activists, we want change. 00:12:47.500 --> 00:12:50.779 We don't want the status quo at all. Most left 00:12:50.779 --> 00:12:53.899 leaning people don't want the status quo. They 00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:56.740 want some sort of progression socially or economically. 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:01.360 And that's where that overlap comes from, because 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.120 this tactic works better when we're advocating 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:08.000 for change. Yeah, I'm also thinking about pro 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:13.009 -life protests. which are discussed from an animal 00:13:13.009 --> 00:13:17.590 rights lens in Beating Hearts, a book I always 00:13:17.590 --> 00:13:23.409 recommend. You brought up an interesting point 00:13:23.409 --> 00:13:29.389 about how it is passionate and how your work 00:13:29.389 --> 00:13:33.769 has been interpreted as being against protest. 00:13:34.529 --> 00:13:37.250 Well, it is much more nuanced than that if you 00:13:37.250 --> 00:13:40.669 go and read you know what you wrote, you see 00:13:40.669 --> 00:13:47.029 that no, it's not a definite no against protests. 00:13:47.929 --> 00:13:53.590 But I'm afraid that not all people will understand 00:13:53.590 --> 00:13:57.730 the nuances of that. So my first recommendation 00:13:57.730 --> 00:14:01.549 after reading the analysis would be for an activist 00:14:01.549 --> 00:14:06.269 would be avoid protests. And if you have to protest, 00:14:06.509 --> 00:14:09.850 you know, read this analysis or think about it 00:14:09.850 --> 00:14:12.970 really carefully. But this should not be the 00:14:12.970 --> 00:14:16.730 default mode for your activism. Do you agree 00:14:16.730 --> 00:14:21.990 with that advice? I would say we should never 00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:25.850 have a default mode of activism. I would say 00:14:25.850 --> 00:14:30.710 we need to think about what is our goal. And 00:14:30.710 --> 00:14:34.240 then choose a series of tactics and interventions 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.779 and strategies that are most likely to get us 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:40.399 to that goal. Sometimes protest is one of them. 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.460 Sometimes it's not. So that's really the question 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:47.340 we're at here. If you're trying to do something 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:49.320 that's good for the animals, what are the three 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:51.940 steps along the way that is going to get us there? 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:57.899 And maybe it's protest. Maybe not. Okay. Let 00:14:57.899 --> 00:15:03.720 me submit the scenario to you. I've watched a 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:09.679 video years ago of vegans, pro -animal activists 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:15.240 entering a barbecue restaurant and you had people, 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.519 you know, eating peacefully, having fun, families 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:24.000 and so on and then entered the angry pro -animal 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.049 vegans who started screaming and shouting and, 00:15:28.049 --> 00:15:31.529 you know, pouring blood on their clothes and 00:15:31.529 --> 00:15:36.350 all of that. And when you looked at the faces 00:15:36.350 --> 00:15:40.649 of the people eating at that restaurant, you 00:15:40.649 --> 00:15:43.549 could see how upset they were. And I feel like 00:15:43.549 --> 00:15:49.110 that is the image of the vegan activists. That's 00:15:49.110 --> 00:15:53.529 what people think about every time you tell them 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:56.820 Hey, I'm a vegan activist or I'm an animal rights 00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:00.220 advocate or something like that. They see that 00:16:00.220 --> 00:16:03.379 that protester entering that restaurant and screaming 00:16:03.379 --> 00:16:09.940 and the militant vegan. Yes. So what's up with 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:14.980 that? Is it productive to to do that kind of 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:20.779 protest? And why has that image been stuck with 00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:24.399 us since forever? Great question. And I think 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:28.019 you're 100 % correct that that is often an image 00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.480 associated with vegans. Same with throwing blood 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:34.379 on fur coats or being really annoying at family 00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:42.139 gatherings, things like that. We have to realize... 00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:45.639 Let me say this. That is true. Protest is the 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:50.100 most unpopular tactic available for animal rights. 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.639 In polling, it's always the most unpopular people 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:57.539 have negative stereotypes about vegans often 00:16:57.539 --> 00:17:00.720 associated with these protests. And i want to 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.320 make it clear that this is not inherent to the 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.539 vegan movement or to the animal rights movement 00:17:05.539 --> 00:17:11.559 stereotyping angry protesters goes back centuries 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.640 and every social movement has to deal with this 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.490 in a. In their own way like we can think about 00:17:17.490 --> 00:17:20.029 climate protesters throwing soup on paintings 00:17:20.029 --> 00:17:23.690 which are very common images that are we can 00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:25.910 see on our social media feeds even to this day. 00:17:26.490 --> 00:17:28.890 We can think about women's suffrage we can think 00:17:28.890 --> 00:17:33.289 about gay rights. We can think about how black 00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:35.369 lives matter protesters are often the stereotype 00:17:35.369 --> 00:17:38.049 is being very violent this is not unique to us 00:17:38.049 --> 00:17:40.529 this is something that is inherent within social 00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:44.400 movements. But. This is a problem we need to 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:49.420 take very seriously. So this is what's often 00:17:49.420 --> 00:17:53.599 called the backlash or the backfire effect. Protests 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.200 make people who watch them angry. This is true 00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:59.799 of most types of protests, especially disruptive 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.579 protest, which I think would fit into the, which 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:12.579 your example fits into. I, in that scenario, 00:18:12.809 --> 00:18:15.170 I don't think that's an effective form of protest 00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:18.789 because protest doesn't make people who watch 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:23.109 it change their diet. It just doesn't. I wish 00:18:23.109 --> 00:18:25.990 this weren't the case, but it just is. In fact, 00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:28.430 in one study, which was done by one of my colleagues, 00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:33.089 Andrea, she found that people who watched protests 00:18:33.089 --> 00:18:35.710 a week later actually ate more meat than people 00:18:35.710 --> 00:18:39.769 who didn't watch a protest or who saw images 00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:45.059 of a protest in the study. So that's not great, 00:18:45.500 --> 00:18:47.640 is it? We actually might be making people eat 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.640 more meat because they might be so irritated 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.059 by these protesters and associate them with veganism 00:18:53.059 --> 00:18:56.559 that we're actually harming the cause. However. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.880 I would incur if you wanted to go into a barbecue 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.279 restaurant and associate the eating of meat with 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.799 violence or murder or blood or all of this aggressive 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:12.299 imagery. Maybe we can think about a different 00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:16.259 goal that we could use protest for. If we can't 00:19:16.259 --> 00:19:18.619 convince people to vote, if we can't convince 00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:21.460 people to change their diets, what else could 00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:25.259 we make them do or convince them to do? Maybe 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:28.839 there's a ballot measure in the state that would 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:30.859 benefit animals and you could convince people 00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:34.460 to vote for that. That's one scenario. Maybe 00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:39.549 there is a corporation that has egregious animal 00:19:39.549 --> 00:19:42.230 welfare violations and you're trying to convince 00:19:42.230 --> 00:19:44.809 people to boycott that corporation. That's another 00:19:44.809 --> 00:19:48.250 possibility. Maybe you're trying to convince 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:51.769 a politician or a corporation to change one of 00:19:51.769 --> 00:19:54.009 their policies and you're going to protest outside 00:19:54.009 --> 00:19:56.730 of the parliament building or the corporate office 00:19:56.730 --> 00:20:00.569 or something like that. That's another possibility. 00:20:02.450 --> 00:20:07.549 So no one is going to go vegan right after seeing 00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:11.130 a protest. But they might do other things. And 00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:13.349 this is where I think we can be a bit more critical 00:20:13.349 --> 00:20:16.410 and tactful with the way that we're using protest. 00:20:17.509 --> 00:20:22.829 In the scenario I used, I described a type of 00:20:22.829 --> 00:20:26.730 protest called disruptive protest. You talked 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:28.970 about other social movements, you talked about 00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:32.569 the suffragettes. I thought right away about 00:20:32.750 --> 00:20:36.910 that event of that woman, you know, going to 00:20:36.910 --> 00:20:40.910 the horse racing thing and dying, you know, from 00:20:40.910 --> 00:20:44.470 being trampled by horses in the presence of the 00:20:44.470 --> 00:20:50.210 king. Quite an incredible historic moment that 00:20:50.210 --> 00:20:54.690 truly, you know, I think sent a message to all 00:20:54.690 --> 00:20:59.930 social movements that being disruptive can make 00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:03.250 a true impact, can really, you know, uh, give 00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:07.569 attention and wins to, uh, your social movement, 00:21:08.430 --> 00:21:12.029 but is it also the case for the pro animal movement? 00:21:12.710 --> 00:21:15.750 Should we think about protests? You know, should 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:19.450 we think about investing our time in a disruptive 00:21:19.450 --> 00:21:25.970 protest or in more like peaceful? Um, I guess, 00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:32.750 uh, not reclusive, but like, um, Non -disruptive 00:21:32.750 --> 00:21:38.109 protest. I wish there was a better, sexier word 00:21:38.109 --> 00:21:39.990 for it, but it's just non -disruptive protest. 00:21:42.289 --> 00:21:44.970 Yeah, this is a great question. The type of protest 00:21:44.970 --> 00:21:47.910 here that we're dealing with. So let's talk about 00:21:47.910 --> 00:21:51.259 disruptive protest. Disruptive protest is when 00:21:51.259 --> 00:21:53.359 we are disrupting the lives of people around 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.839 us. This can involve blocking traffic, it could 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.380 involve going into restaurants like you described, 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.180 basically causing some sort of public nuisance 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:06.740 that people around you have to deal with in their 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:15.180 lives. Nearly always creates some form of backlash. 00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:17.259 People, you know, don't want to have their lives 00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:20.519 disrupted. That's a normal human response. Some 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:22.799 research from the social change lab shows that 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.299 this backlash subsides over the period of several 00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:28.940 months. They had a study come out, I believe 00:22:28.940 --> 00:22:31.740 it was last year, maybe 2023, that showed that 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:35.880 this had subsided after the grand national protests. 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.099 So that's a good thing that this is not inherently 00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:44.359 sticky form of backlash. But we also have to 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:45.640 remember what I was talking about earlier that 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:47.700 we have these negative stereotypes of vegans 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:49.559 and animal rights activists that are inherently 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:51.819 tied to protest. And that's not going to go away 00:22:51.819 --> 00:22:54.680 anytime soon. So does this mean we should never 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:58.900 use disruptive protest? I would say no. What 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:05.099 I'm excited about is something known as the radical 00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:09.839 flank effect, which is basically a social social 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:15.640 change terminology for making the so essentially 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:20.240 if you have two groups one of which is extremely 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.980 radical and the other of which is extremely moderate 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:26.279 the existence of the radical group makes you 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.799 more likely to support the moderate group so 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:31.880 there's other phrases for this we can call this 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.140 good cop bad cop we some people call this a shifting 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:39.299 the overton window things like that where When 00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:41.440 you have something very negative, it makes you 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.339 want to support the more positive thing because 00:23:43.339 --> 00:23:45.380 you're getting away from that negative, radical, 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:51.180 crazy stuff. Let's give an example of what this 00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:56.480 would look like. Let's say you're trying to get 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:01.960 McDonald's to... Let's not use a specific example. 00:24:02.059 --> 00:24:03.579 Let's say you're trying to get a corporation 00:24:03.579 --> 00:24:08.829 to remove... meat that was raised in station 00:24:08.829 --> 00:24:13.170 crates for pigs and you have this really aggressive 00:24:13.170 --> 00:24:16.589 protest you walk into a bunch of the restaurants 00:24:16.589 --> 00:24:20.890 and. You put blood on the walls i like your example 00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:23.210 you have pictures of pigs that are suffering 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:27.190 you get really in people's faces. And then a 00:24:27.190 --> 00:24:30.190 week or two later a more moderate group has a 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:32.470 little social media campaign and they're much 00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:36.220 more approachable. They're much more conversational 00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:37.960 they say hey like we just want to talk about 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:39.799 this like you know i don't i don't agree with 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:40.940 what they're doing i don't think we should put 00:24:40.940 --> 00:24:42.839 blood on people's floors like that's that's too 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:46.440 far but you know gestation creates a real issue. 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:50.460 We should be taking this seriously i'd love to 00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:53.859 have a conversation with the the supply team 00:24:53.859 --> 00:24:55.619 manager for your corporation about seeing what 00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:58.180 we could do to make the animal welfare a little 00:24:58.180 --> 00:25:00.519 bit better by removing these gestation creates. 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:06.720 Then. Ideally, that corporate manager would be 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.859 more willing to have that conversation and to 00:25:09.859 --> 00:25:13.279 make that change. That's just one example. We 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.740 can do the same thing for politicians, for everyday 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:22.740 citizens, et cetera, et cetera. So that's where 00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:25.319 I think disruptive protests can get really exciting. 00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:28.980 Instead of just being disruptive, being disruptive 00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:35.630 doesn't help animals by itself. But if we use 00:25:35.630 --> 00:25:39.390 disruption as a way to signal for better change 00:25:39.390 --> 00:25:42.109 that we could be doing right now, in which other 00:25:42.109 --> 00:25:44.390 groups can kind of take up the, you know, we 00:25:44.390 --> 00:25:47.269 pass the baton to these other groups, then I 00:25:47.269 --> 00:25:50.049 think we're using strategy a little better. And 00:25:50.049 --> 00:25:54.170 this is going to require some coordination. We 00:25:54.170 --> 00:25:57.569 need to be working together, coordinating together, 00:25:58.130 --> 00:26:00.369 to make sure that these moderate flank, radical 00:26:00.369 --> 00:26:03.019 flank effects are being used correctly. Importantly 00:26:03.019 --> 00:26:05.519 it should not be the same organization the same 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:07.740 organization should not be being the modern and 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:11.619 the radical arm because then we're going to be 00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:13.500 that it's harder to get the conversation to come 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:18.380 across so. We need to be talking to each other. 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:23.640 You know what role does each group play are you 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.819 the radical militants who are going to make people. 00:26:27.259 --> 00:26:29.420 go towards the more moderates or are you going 00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:31.720 to be the ones to sit down and have those conversations 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:36.599 with the with the stakeholders? Yeah, that's 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:42.240 an issue. Internal coordination and having internal 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:48.779 conversations. What about you being offensive? 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:53.490 And we mentioned, you know, the blood. I would 00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:57.069 just, you know, label that as offensive, maybe 00:26:57.069 --> 00:27:00.950 nudity. We've seen that many times with, you 00:27:00.950 --> 00:27:06.289 know, protests, mostly against dairy. Images 00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:09.569 display of slaughterhouse images, such as, you 00:27:09.569 --> 00:27:13.170 know, through the cube of truth. What is the 00:27:13.170 --> 00:27:20.329 impact of that? So any form of I think there's 00:27:20.329 --> 00:27:22.740 two, there's two questions at play here. One 00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:29.940 is lewd imagery, so things like nudity or basically 00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:32.000 anything that people or families might not want 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.579 to see in public for certain people. The second 00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:39.880 is graphic imagery, which is images of slaughterhouses, 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:46.099 of animals under duress or blood, sometimes even 00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:49.400 animal bodies, for example, in National Animal 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.359 Rights Day, that are displayed, although in that 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:54.920 case, it's rather empathetically displayed to 00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:59.240 the public. So when we're talking about perhaps 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.940 lewd imagery, again, that's just an aspect of 00:28:01.940 --> 00:28:05.680 disruption, I would say we're trying to cause 00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.160 a ruckus and make people feel a little bit uncomfortable. 00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:12.990 I haven't found any research about the effectiveness 00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:16.329 of any of this. My gut instinct would be that 00:28:16.329 --> 00:28:18.789 it falls into the same category of regular disruptive 00:28:18.789 --> 00:28:21.950 protest. And I do know many scholars and activists 00:28:21.950 --> 00:28:25.150 have criticized a lot of these protests for being 00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:27.890 perhaps accidentally or sometimes even purposely 00:28:27.890 --> 00:28:35.990 misogynistic or just just just not the just not 00:28:35.990 --> 00:28:38.269 the vein we're trying to approach here where 00:28:38.269 --> 00:28:45.779 we're basically objectifying human bodies instead 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:50.440 of subjectifying animals. So I kind of agree 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:52.980 with that criticism, frankly. I think maybe there 00:28:52.980 --> 00:28:57.799 is a place for that, for lewd imagery. I just, 00:28:58.019 --> 00:28:59.579 I haven't seen it been done very well in the 00:28:59.579 --> 00:29:02.480 animal movement very often. Then the second question 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:05.759 is graphic imagery. I actually have an upcoming 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:09.079 resource that will delve into the idea of graphic 00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:13.339 imagery a little bit more. But graphic imagery, 00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:17.299 when we see an animal in pain, it creates something 00:29:17.299 --> 00:29:22.940 that psychologists call moral shock. Where we 00:29:22.940 --> 00:29:26.299 essentially freeze for a second and we feel if 00:29:26.299 --> 00:29:29.440 we are not prepared to see this. It just kind 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:32.559 of makes you so defensive and you're in shock. 00:29:32.980 --> 00:29:35.279 And I think we can relate to this as vegans, 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.420 even if think of the first time you saw some 00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:41.200 horrific imagery of an animal suffering. And 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.720 imagine, you know, if you saw if you just were 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:46.200 walking on the street and you saw a dog, you 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:50.519 know, hit by a car, it would give you a horrific 00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:55.119 feeling inside. And a lot of the time, this moral 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.779 shock. doesn't cause people to take positive 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:01.420 action afterwards because it kind of shuts down 00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:05.200 your agency instead of opening it up. So if we're 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.059 going to use graphic imagery, we need to be really 00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:12.720 careful. It should not be overdone. We shouldn't 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:14.960 be hitting people over the heads with it. It 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:18.059 should be contextualized. We should basically 00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:21.140 guide people to understand what they're seeing 00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:24.200 and what could be done about this, right? There 00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:27.640 has to be hope. There has to be optimism added 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.359 to this horrible, disgusting, horrific thing 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.079 that we're seeing. Otherwise, it's not going 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.420 to make us want to do anything. So if you just 00:30:37.420 --> 00:30:41.980 have a poster board of a pig in pain, and that's 00:30:41.980 --> 00:30:44.559 the only thing that you're showing people, that's 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:46.299 not going to make people want to change their 00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:49.500 behaviors. But if instead you use this imagery 00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:52.779 strategically, guide them in a conversation, 00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.700 Or in a in a in a documentary or a talk or something 00:30:57.700 --> 00:31:02.119 and then you add in a really well crafted message 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.099 that helps them understand where their act where 00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:08.420 their behaviors fit into this cruelty then they're 00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:15.240 more likely to make a change. So again we can 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.980 use graphic imagery but. We have to be strategic 00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:21.799 about this. We can't just go around showing this 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:23.640 horrible stuff willy -nilly That's not going 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.759 to just magically make people turn vegan or make 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.160 other pro animal decisions. I Think we should 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:37.259 address a point related to related to that You 00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:41.759 advise people at the end of the Article you published 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:47.349 to track the effectiveness of their activism. 00:31:48.210 --> 00:31:51.109 And I feel like this is something we're used 00:31:51.109 --> 00:31:54.369 to now. Um, everyone in the corporate world, 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:57.349 you know, if you have a office job, every time 00:31:57.349 --> 00:32:00.769 you launch a project or something, there's always 00:32:00.769 --> 00:32:05.450 a phase of, you know, collecting feedback and 00:32:05.450 --> 00:32:09.869 a postmortem of your project and what happened 00:32:09.869 --> 00:32:12.849 and what can we learn about, you know, what we 00:32:12.849 --> 00:32:17.599 did and, um, And so why haven't we brought that 00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:40.109 good habit to activism? Many research organizations, 00:32:40.329 --> 00:32:42.809 there's so many out there, phonetics, brain research, 00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:46.769 animal ask, and a metrics that are helping people 00:32:46.769 --> 00:32:48.789 with big picture data, but also sometimes helping 00:32:48.789 --> 00:32:50.829 them with specific projects of tracking their 00:32:50.829 --> 00:32:53.910 own work. I do this myself as a freelance researcher. 00:32:54.150 --> 00:32:58.930 So you can always reach out to me as well. I 00:32:58.930 --> 00:33:00.369 think this gets back to what we were talking 00:33:00.369 --> 00:33:02.490 about earlier about why people haven't been tracking 00:33:02.490 --> 00:33:07.079 it is because when A lot of times when you're 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.299 a young activist or a new activist, you're driven 00:33:10.299 --> 00:33:13.299 by passion and intuition and instinct. And those 00:33:13.299 --> 00:33:15.579 are great things. Those are great things, but 00:33:15.579 --> 00:33:18.119 you need to harness them correctly. And if we're 00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.559 not going to be learning from our past, if we're 00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:24.220 not going to be looking at our mistakes and successes 00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:27.240 and thinking and tweaking and like, what can 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:29.319 we do a little bit better next time to convince 00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:31.180 one more person or to make a little bit more 00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:33.599 change or to to shift the percentage points just 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:36.250 a little bit more. then we're not being the best 00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:41.289 activists that we can be. Again, this is changing 00:33:41.289 --> 00:33:43.609 and I'm really happy to see this is changing. 00:33:44.289 --> 00:33:46.630 A couple years ago, I would have conversations 00:33:46.630 --> 00:33:48.589 with people and I would have to convince them 00:33:48.589 --> 00:33:52.710 why data was important. I'm having a lot fewer 00:33:52.710 --> 00:33:55.470 conversations like that now. People know data 00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:57.789 is important. Now the conversation is what is 00:33:57.789 --> 00:34:01.000 the data and how can I use it? And that's a better 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.960 conversation to me because now people are open 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.279 -minded and they're excited and they want to 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:08.699 make this a little bit better. So for me, this 00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:12.559 is a turning point. The idea that we are adopting 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.440 this idea of monitoring evaluation and learning. 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:17.900 We're adopting this idea of impact tracking. 00:34:18.500 --> 00:34:20.460 And for some people, this seems so corporate, 00:34:20.780 --> 00:34:22.860 right? We have KPIs and we have dashboards and 00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:27.539 spreadsheets and everything. But without looking 00:34:27.869 --> 00:34:30.690 to the past and looking inward on what has been 00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:33.190 working and what hasn't been working. We're not 00:34:33.190 --> 00:34:34.789 going to be able to make our strategies better 00:34:34.789 --> 00:34:37.869 in the future. So I'm really happy to see this 00:34:37.869 --> 00:34:42.289 this shift. So we discussed disruptive versus 00:34:42.289 --> 00:34:46.590 non disruptive. Now let's talk about the motivation 00:34:46.590 --> 00:34:51.869 part and the goal of the protest. So we mentioned 00:34:51.869 --> 00:34:57.670 protests to convince people to go vegan. And 00:34:57.670 --> 00:35:02.309 then there are the protests that would push for 00:35:02.309 --> 00:35:07.150 change, political change, corporate change. If 00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:12.130 I'm an activist and looking at the most impactful 00:35:12.130 --> 00:35:17.690 way to invest my time and mobilize my friend 00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:22.190 group or something like that, what should I choose? 00:35:22.670 --> 00:35:27.260 Which lane? The political lane? um the the corporate 00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:32.039 lane um uh or uh trying to convince people to 00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.960 go vegan um this is a great question and this 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:39.300 is in some ways the question right of like what 00:35:39.300 --> 00:35:42.039 what can we do what should we be doing how can 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:45.400 we optimize our work the most i i might not have 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.000 an answer that you like unfortunately i don't 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.000 think in my opinion this actually isn't the right 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.980 question i don't think If you're an activist, 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.500 you shouldn't be thinking to yourself, what is 00:35:56.500 --> 00:36:02.780 the best way we can do activism? Because we need 00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:06.679 every type of activism working together in a 00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:11.340 string. They need to be working as a unit. For 00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:18.039 example, we need documentaries to change the 00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:20.780 media landscape. We need articles to get people 00:36:20.780 --> 00:36:23.750 to think about animal issues when they're reading 00:36:23.750 --> 00:36:26.989 the news. We also need protest to put pressure 00:36:26.989 --> 00:36:30.110 on key decision makers and lobbyists. We need 00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:32.269 to be working with corporations. We need to be 00:36:32.269 --> 00:36:33.809 working with politicians. We need to be doing 00:36:33.809 --> 00:36:40.010 everything. I meant in terms of protest, if I 00:36:40.010 --> 00:36:45.650 want to organize a protest, what kind of thing 00:36:45.650 --> 00:36:49.510 should I protest against? Oh, okay. I understand. 00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:52.389 I understand your question more now. OK, I would 00:36:52.389 --> 00:36:58.449 say. So. Number one, don't don't do a protest 00:36:58.449 --> 00:37:00.190 to convince the people watching the protest to 00:37:00.190 --> 00:37:04.050 go vegan. It's not going to work. So that's in 00:37:04.050 --> 00:37:06.050 my opinion, that's pretty definitively off the 00:37:06.050 --> 00:37:13.989 table. Number two. What? I would look into where 00:37:13.989 --> 00:37:17.630 you are. and think about what issues are within 00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:22.110 reach for us, right? Is there a bill that's going 00:37:22.110 --> 00:37:23.849 to be on the docket this year or next year or 00:37:23.849 --> 00:37:26.269 something like that? Maybe you can use protests 00:37:26.269 --> 00:37:30.110 to work on that. Are there corporate campaigns 00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:33.130 that are happening nearby you that you could 00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:36.190 perhaps work with or coordinate with to get those 00:37:36.190 --> 00:37:38.090 corporate campaigns to be a bit more successful? 00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:44.639 You need to be thinking about the issues that 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:46.360 you can kind of push over the finish line and 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:53.820 to pressure people to take seriously. It's gonna 00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:56.440 depend on where you are. It's gonna depend on 00:37:56.440 --> 00:37:59.820 the language, the culture, physically where you 00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:02.300 are. And I don't think there's one specific solution 00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:06.059 all the time. Let me think, is there anything 00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:11.059 else I would advise? And this comes back to who 00:38:11.059 --> 00:38:13.989 else are you coordinating with? Because that's, 00:38:14.050 --> 00:38:15.989 I think, a key issue in activism that isn't being 00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:19.010 talked about enough. If you protest, if you're 00:38:19.010 --> 00:38:21.610 on a campus, let's say, and you're trying to 00:38:21.610 --> 00:38:24.530 convince your university to stop doing animal 00:38:24.530 --> 00:38:30.989 testing, what is the next step after the protest, 00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:35.159 right? Protest is good at getting media. It's 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:36.880 good at getting eyeballs. It's good at getting 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:41.039 clicks online, but then that's not going to be 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.340 meaningful if there isn't somebody you're going 00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:46.920 to pass the baton to. Maybe it's you who talks 00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:48.800 to the Dean and tries to convince them to do 00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:51.820 this. Maybe it's a different group. Maybe you're 00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:53.840 going to be working with the university network 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:58.019 across your country. So that's I think the key. 00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:02.400 Right where where does the protest fit into this 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:08.320 larger. Systems chain systems changing network. 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:14.400 Right. If you're not working with others the 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:18.480 the the protest energy is just gonna fade that's 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.159 kind of one of the unfortunate realities passion 00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:28.480 does fade energy does fade. I'm sure if you're 00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:29.920 listening to this and you're the most passionate 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.619 person ever, I believe you that you're going 00:39:32.619 --> 00:39:34.940 to be passionate. But at some point it will fade 00:39:34.940 --> 00:39:36.599 for other people around you who are watching. 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:42.260 There has to be a next step. And I think that's 00:39:42.260 --> 00:39:44.480 going to be where the real impact is going to 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:48.980 come from. You mentioned in the paper that you 00:39:48.980 --> 00:39:52.320 should be in for the long haul. You mentioned 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.250 coordinating with maybe another organization 00:39:55.250 --> 00:39:59.090 or something like that. There is something called 00:39:59.090 --> 00:40:04.429 argument from authority and it is based on this 00:40:04.429 --> 00:40:11.070 perception that we have of people with credentials, 00:40:11.690 --> 00:40:15.570 institutions that have a long history and are 00:40:15.570 --> 00:40:20.929 well established. But if I look at animal rights 00:40:20.929 --> 00:40:24.349 organizations out there, not all organizations 00:40:24.349 --> 00:40:29.789 are equal. And if I look at the way they organize 00:40:29.789 --> 00:40:34.530 activism, they're not all based on data, on what 00:40:34.530 --> 00:40:38.949 we know to be effective. And so how do we choose 00:40:38.949 --> 00:40:45.929 to which organization we give our time and what 00:40:45.929 --> 00:40:49.050 organization we should coordinate with? This 00:40:49.050 --> 00:40:51.949 is a tricky one, because I completely agree that 00:40:51.949 --> 00:40:54.190 a lot of organizations are more impactful than 00:40:54.190 --> 00:40:57.230 others. And a lot of organizations take data 00:40:57.230 --> 00:41:00.070 and research more seriously than others. I know 00:41:00.070 --> 00:41:02.909 this firsthand. I can tell you that firsthand. 00:41:04.269 --> 00:41:07.909 However, if you're working locally, because protest 00:41:07.909 --> 00:41:13.050 is usually a local tactic most of the time. Right 00:41:13.050 --> 00:41:15.230 you're working within your community sometimes 00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:17.610 we have national protest that is absolutely true 00:41:17.610 --> 00:41:18.769 and those are the ones that tend to dominate 00:41:18.769 --> 00:41:21.389 the headlines but the majority of protests are 00:41:21.389 --> 00:41:25.550 relatively small and local. There are hundreds 00:41:25.550 --> 00:41:27.690 of protests every single year and a lot of countries 00:41:27.690 --> 00:41:29.690 even for animal issues but most of them are going 00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:33.090 to make the news. So because protest is usually 00:41:33.090 --> 00:41:35.889 used locally you're going to you're almost constrained 00:41:35.889 --> 00:41:38.570 by the local organizations that you have maybe 00:41:38.570 --> 00:41:43.619 the national organizations so if you're. a protester 00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.320 trying to think of which groups to coordinate 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:49.340 with, I would find the ones that are close to 00:41:49.340 --> 00:41:53.260 you and then maybe work with them to use data 00:41:53.260 --> 00:41:58.659 and impact and strategy more critically. If you're 00:41:58.659 --> 00:42:03.369 thinking about Organizations to donate to to 00:42:03.369 --> 00:42:06.230 maximize your impact there's a lot of charity 00:42:06.230 --> 00:42:08.670 evaluators out there animal charity evaluators 00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:12.110 is the most famous for animal nonprofits but 00:42:12.110 --> 00:42:16.809 that's more on a global scale locally. We need 00:42:16.809 --> 00:42:19.989 to be thinking about who can i work with who 00:42:19.989 --> 00:42:22.690 agrees with my vision who is my theory of change 00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:26.210 and how can we coordinate to be different parts 00:42:26.210 --> 00:42:28.599 of that theory of change together. A lot of this 00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:30.440 is just going to come out of community building 00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:33.260 and networking and working together. That's something 00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:37.300 I'm working on here in myself. I live in Barcelona, 00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:40.300 Spain, and I'm working with a lot of the groups 00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:43.900 here, and they don't always share my opinions 00:42:43.900 --> 00:42:48.079 about the best ways forward. But we can agree 00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:50.980 on the goals that we're working towards, and 00:42:50.980 --> 00:42:52.980 we can agree that sometimes we might take up 00:42:52.980 --> 00:42:57.119 different roles within the same movement. I obviously 00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.000 am more research oriented. I'm kind of more of 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:01.739 the quote unquote, like professional type of 00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:05.880 activist, but I still work with the more radical 00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.079 activisty types of activists, even if it's not 00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:12.820 the method I personally would use. So I think 00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:17.219 collaboration is worth it more times than not, 00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.340 even if you don't agree on the way the other 00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:22.940 organization is approaching things. I want to 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:25.940 ask you, what did you make of effective altruism? 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.199 I like effective altruism. I consider myself 00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:33.380 an effective altruist. I specialize in effective 00:43:33.380 --> 00:43:41.139 animal advocacy within EA. EA has gone definitely 00:43:41.139 --> 00:43:43.179 a bit of a bad rep, I think, the last couple 00:43:43.179 --> 00:43:45.500 of years, a lot of which I think it deserves. 00:43:46.099 --> 00:43:50.880 But one thing I really admire is they are willing 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.840 to tackle these issues and think about impact 00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:56.239 and think about how we can maximize the positive 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.739 change that we're doing into the world. And I 00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:00.679 really like that they take animal issues very 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:04.719 seriously. Most EA people, even if they're not 00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:09.519 vegan, I've never met an EA person who's basically 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:11.719 said animal welfare isn't worthy of consideration, 00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:14.460 or that animals aren't worthy of moral weight. 00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:18.449 Maybe they exist, but I haven't met them. And 00:44:18.449 --> 00:44:20.329 even if they're not purposely working on them 00:44:20.329 --> 00:44:21.889 they agree that this is something we should be 00:44:21.889 --> 00:44:24.730 taking seriously and i can't see the same for 00:44:24.730 --> 00:44:29.630 a lot of other social change movements. So to 00:44:29.630 --> 00:44:36.030 me that's definitely a win. And you know i obviously 00:44:36.030 --> 00:44:38.909 there are criticisms of the movement it can get 00:44:38.909 --> 00:44:43.710 a bit too. Theoretical to the point where the 00:44:43.710 --> 00:44:47.030 actual practical advocacy might be. not as exciting 00:44:47.030 --> 00:44:48.750 to some people, they like thinking about the 00:44:48.750 --> 00:44:51.030 theory of activism more than the practical activism. 00:44:51.769 --> 00:44:54.030 This is a criticism that you could levy at me 00:44:54.030 --> 00:44:56.869 myself. I spend way more time thinking about 00:44:56.869 --> 00:44:59.349 strategy as opposed to being on the streets doing 00:44:59.349 --> 00:45:01.170 activism, although I do that as well, but to 00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:09.349 a lesser degree. So I think. Again, if you're 00:45:09.349 --> 00:45:11.590 an animal activist and you don't agree with everything 00:45:11.590 --> 00:45:15.170 EA says, that's totally fair. But I think you 00:45:15.170 --> 00:45:18.250 should take seriously the potential of collaboration 00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:21.949 with EA folks I would reach out to an EA group 00:45:21.949 --> 00:45:24.869 near you and see if you could work together on 00:45:24.869 --> 00:45:27.570 some things I'm sure there are vegans and animal 00:45:27.570 --> 00:45:30.170 rights activists within that group That would 00:45:30.170 --> 00:45:31.889 love to have a conversation with you about the 00:45:31.889 --> 00:45:34.389 most way the best way to have impact for animals 00:45:34.389 --> 00:45:37.670 so to me, that's exciting the fact that they 00:45:37.670 --> 00:45:43.130 take animal welfare seriously is Very optimistic. 00:45:43.269 --> 00:45:46.190 It makes me feel very optimistic. And I like 00:45:46.190 --> 00:45:53.010 that. One last thing about protests. And that's 00:45:53.010 --> 00:45:57.789 kind of a weird question. Is it also impacting 00:45:57.789 --> 00:46:03.230 animals? When I think about big protests, there's 00:46:03.230 --> 00:46:08.030 a lot of noise. And I feel like, you know, is 00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:15.440 it in a way creating distress in the local Fona. 00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:20.059 What do you make of that? Very interesting question. 00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.460 I have to admit, I haven't really thought about 00:46:22.460 --> 00:46:28.559 this that much. If we're looking at a large protest 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:33.000 with chanting and people ringing bells and making 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.320 lots of noise, I agree that probably does have 00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:39.260 some disruption on local animals, whether they 00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:43.460 be companion animals or city wildlife like pigeons 00:46:43.460 --> 00:46:47.599 or rats or things like that. I'm sure it probably 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:52.139 has some negative effect on them. But remember, 00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:54.980 most protests aren't very large and they're usually 00:46:54.980 --> 00:46:57.260 pretty localized. So I don't think it's likely 00:46:57.260 --> 00:46:59.639 that they would have any sort of negative effect. 00:47:00.460 --> 00:47:03.320 And perhaps a counter -argument might be that 00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:08.570 protests that shut down Highways or roads would 00:47:08.570 --> 00:47:10.949 also reduce the amount of cars, which create 00:47:10.949 --> 00:47:13.090 a lot of noise and disruption and pollution and 00:47:13.090 --> 00:47:16.050 things like that, even if it's temporary. So 00:47:16.050 --> 00:47:19.610 perhaps those large protests kind of even out 00:47:19.610 --> 00:47:22.210 in the way that they harm animals. That's my 00:47:22.210 --> 00:47:25.710 guess. I haven't really found a study on this 00:47:25.710 --> 00:47:27.429 specifically, but I think it's a really interesting 00:47:27.429 --> 00:47:29.550 question to consider. And that's actually a good 00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:31.489 point. And if you're doing a protest, think about 00:47:31.489 --> 00:47:33.650 the local animals and how they might be affected. 00:47:34.329 --> 00:47:37.409 I do think most protests tend to happen in cities 00:47:37.409 --> 00:47:40.989 where we're looking at city wildlife as opposed 00:47:40.989 --> 00:47:43.789 to rural wildlife and they tend to be more accustomed 00:47:43.789 --> 00:47:47.289 to human activity. So I would imagine it'd be 00:47:47.289 --> 00:47:50.389 not a huge concern, but you know, we're animal 00:47:50.389 --> 00:47:52.530 advocates. We have to, we have to take this stuff 00:47:52.530 --> 00:47:56.010 seriously. Do you have in mind an organization 00:47:56.010 --> 00:48:01.409 that we can look up to and who effectively utilize 00:48:01.409 --> 00:48:05.030 protests? I feel like it's always good to have 00:48:05.030 --> 00:48:09.250 a model to look up to and practical examples 00:48:09.250 --> 00:48:14.030 and maybe a champion of protest you can think 00:48:14.030 --> 00:48:19.010 about. First of all, I would caution and say 00:48:19.010 --> 00:48:23.489 we can look at protest examples from big groups, 00:48:23.550 --> 00:48:26.030 but we should always be a little bit cautious 00:48:26.030 --> 00:48:29.670 because protest often works best locally and 00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:33.010 regionally. And a lot of these groups often will 00:48:33.010 --> 00:48:35.929 have a decentralized network where they have 00:48:35.929 --> 00:48:38.030 local leaders within a city. Maybe they have 00:48:38.030 --> 00:48:40.429 like a continent wide organization, but then 00:48:40.429 --> 00:48:44.630 local leaders. And this is really important to 00:48:44.630 --> 00:48:47.010 keep in mind that because protest is often very 00:48:47.010 --> 00:48:50.949 local, looking at large global groups can only 00:48:50.949 --> 00:48:54.369 take us so far. OK, so with that said, I think 00:48:54.369 --> 00:48:56.889 a couple that stand out to me are direct action 00:48:56.889 --> 00:49:01.320 everywhere. I would look at, you know, extinction 00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:04.280 rebellion, animal rising. I would look at We 00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:07.840 the Free as examples of groups that are doing 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.659 this with a lot of tactic and a lot of thought 00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:16.199 behind what they're doing. But if you are wanting 00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:20.860 to get involved in protest strategically, you 00:49:20.860 --> 00:49:23.480 can join one of these groups. You can join a 00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:27.710 decentralized local version of this group. or 00:49:27.710 --> 00:49:31.570 you can make your own group, or you could make 00:49:31.570 --> 00:49:34.909 a group to coordinate with an existing organization 00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:37.309 nearby, like what we're talking about with the 00:49:37.309 --> 00:49:41.949 radical flank effect. So the bottom line, if 00:49:41.949 --> 00:49:44.969 you want to take protests seriously, you need 00:49:44.969 --> 00:49:47.570 to be thinking about how does this fit into the 00:49:47.570 --> 00:49:50.730 larger theory of change for positive impact for 00:49:50.730 --> 00:49:55.409 animals? Passion is great. Excitement is great. 00:49:55.579 --> 00:49:59.619 Attention is great, but it's not enough. You 00:49:59.619 --> 00:50:03.179 need to be getting that passion and then turning 00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:07.179 that into positive change. That's going to take 00:50:07.179 --> 00:50:10.239 a vision towards the future. You can't be looking 00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:13.320 at next week. You have to be looking five, 10, 00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.559 50 years down the line. How can I make good change 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:20.159 for animals? And that's what we have to take 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:26.539 seriously. I love that. Be a visionary. And yeah, 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:32.179 have also a fun protest, you know, I think that's 00:50:32.179 --> 00:50:34.800 important. Protests can be joyful. It can be 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.860 joyful. I think, you know, I think of the queer 00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:40.579 rights movement in many parts of the world. Pride 00:50:40.579 --> 00:50:44.420 is a protest and it's joyful a lot of the times. 00:50:45.340 --> 00:50:48.199 And I think we can take that seriously as well. 00:50:48.260 --> 00:50:50.059 It doesn't always have to be doom and gloom, 00:50:50.059 --> 00:50:53.949 you know. Yeah, and use it to socialize, meet 00:50:53.949 --> 00:50:59.349 other vegans and also enjoy the summer. I think 00:50:59.349 --> 00:51:05.969 summer is the season of protests. So yeah. Bjorn, 00:51:07.550 --> 00:51:11.050 would you like to add something before we end 00:51:11.050 --> 00:51:14.730 the recording? I would say regardless of what 00:51:14.730 --> 00:51:17.650 you are doing for animals, you need to be thinking 00:51:17.650 --> 00:51:21.679 critically about your impact at all times. If 00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.340 you ever want to think about the strategy more, 00:51:24.460 --> 00:51:27.860 you can reach out to me. You can go to my website, 00:51:28.059 --> 00:51:31.920 bjornjohann .com, B -J -R -N -J -O -H -A -N -N 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:35.079 .com, or go to my sub stack, which is called 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:38.539 More Than Meets the Eye, MEAT spelled M -E -A 00:51:38.539 --> 00:51:41.929 -T -S, because I love a good meat pun. Um, there 00:51:41.929 --> 00:51:43.809 are lots of other researchers out there too, 00:51:43.809 --> 00:51:46.309 who are doing, who are tackling really good questions. 00:51:46.809 --> 00:51:49.070 You could look at the phonetics website. I mentioned 00:51:49.070 --> 00:51:51.389 a bunch of them, phonetics, Bryant research, 00:51:51.690 --> 00:51:55.250 animal ask, animal think tank, animatrix, um, 00:51:55.250 --> 00:51:57.650 animal charity evaluators is doing some, I mean, 00:51:57.690 --> 00:51:59.710 there's too many groups that I can think of off 00:51:59.710 --> 00:52:04.250 the top of my head. The bottom line, you need 00:52:04.250 --> 00:52:08.030 to think about strategy and there's people there 00:52:08.030 --> 00:52:10.539 who can help you. A lot of whom can help you 00:52:10.539 --> 00:52:12.760 for either not much money or completely free. 00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:17.119 So I really encourage you to think about that. 00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:20.940 Amazing, great parting words. Thank you so much, 00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:24.699 Bjorn, for your work. Thank you so much for having 00:52:24.699 --> 00:52:27.659 accepted my invitation to the Fijian Report and 00:52:27.659 --> 00:52:30.380 having answered my questions. Thank you, everyone, 00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:33.519 for listening. I kindly invite you to share this 00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:36.400 podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:40.360 more people to take action. Again, thank you 00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:43.360 so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday 00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:44.840 for a new episode.