Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan
and today we address one of the hottest topic
in the vegan community, romantic relationships.
We answer all the important questions, dating
questions such as should I date a fellow vegan
or go with chemistry and open my life to carnis?
Where can I find a vegan partner? Can I turn
my partner vegan or am I deluding myself? but
also questions about lasting relationships, making
veganism sexy, or choosing to have kids. And
to answer all those questions, we have our in
-house professional matchmaker, Rabbi Akiva Gersh,
also known as the vegan rabbi. He had a hand
in forming who knows how many loving relationships,
so listen carefully to his advice. Plus... two
loving activist couples. George and Rachel Martin.
You know George as Carnism Debunked. He has been
on the show many times, and if you follow him
on social media, you've seen Rachel too, and
Rachel has the same burning flame for animal
rights. Then, Tom and Saul, who recently came
on the podcast to promote their illustrated book.
Reynard the house wolf. They are a couple of
artists and activists living remotely in nature.
And every time I look at Sol's art, I am reminded
of how authentic and inspiring their lives is.
Visit the episode notes and connect with Akiva,
George, Rachel, Tom and Sol. And if you liked
this episode, share it with your fellow vegan.
I want to start with maybe asking you to share
your love stories. How did you meet? And how
did you know that your partner was the right
person for you? And I think that would be a great
way to also introduce yourselves. Who would like
to start? We are Tom and Sol. We live in the
Upper Peninsula, Michigan. And we first met 12
years ago. I was recently graduated from the
university, didn't really know what I was doing
with my life. So I took a backpacking trip in
South America, just bought a one -way ticket
and I was visiting different places, playing
music. One day I was just playing music in a
park in Lima, Peru, and Sol walked up to me and
asked if she could listen to my music. And I
found out later that she'd actually been following
me around town all day. With my mom? Yeah, stalking
me. The story became more sinister when I heard
the details later. But yeah, that's really just
it. Traveling and playing music. And I think
we knew we were right for each other just because
we both went totally crazy and were willing to
cross oceans to be with one another. So you really
only do that for the right person. that is so
romantic okay uh george rachel yeah so we're
also an international couple um i'm from the
uk and rachel is american or we're living in
the uk at the moment um we had always known each
other in like the facebook groups and stuff yeah
like all of the free speech vegan groups uh i
knew george he was quite notorious for always
speaking his opinions and uh yeah being brave
enough to like combat the norm and so uh yeah
we knew each other from like since 2017 but we
reconnected on um instagram like i think it was
like 2020 2021 or something we'd always been
friends on facebook we always followed each other
um george actually used to post pictures of my
pigs and follow my uh rescue pig Facebook account
and like I scrolled through his profile and saw
he still has a photo shared on his page of my
piggies and yeah totally unknowing that we would
be together one day or anything like that yeah
I would have never ever thought this but um yeah
I came out here November of it so sorry Tink's
is really naughty um but yeah I came out to visit
in November of 2022 and We basically just fell
in love as soon as we met and we were planning
to like, maybe I'd move in July of the following
year, but we wanted to be together. So I moved
in January. So like two months after we met,
but we had known each other for so long already.
And yeah, it just felt right. Amazing. And let
me add the fact that you've met virtually at
first is very on brand for you, George. Yeah,
I'm not a real -life person. I live through a
screen as everyone knows, you know. Okay, what
about you Akiva? You're also in a happy marriage.
Your wife could not make it today. How did you
meet your wife? So the story is very long, a
bit complicated, not as simple as time and soul.
But it would take a whole podcast probably just
to tell the story. We used to tell our story
together to student groups that we worked with
many years ago. It took about an hour and a half
to tell the whole story. It's a fun story to
tell. It's got ups and downs and all arounds,
lots of drama, lots of different things. But
very long story, very short. We met in 2003.
when it was through a Jewish environmental education
center that we had both worked at. I had worked
at it the season before. She worked at it the
current season. I came back to visit some friends
who were still there. We checked each other out,
but I thought she was kind of already in a relationship.
So I didn't approach her or anything, but the
energy was already building. And then we reconnected
in a different space some months later. Whenever
the energy was there, we worked on a summer program
together. connected there, and that's when we
started to officially date. Maybe some of this
will come out later. I'm not sure. So I don't
know how much I should share right now, but I
had been looking for for someone for a few years
before that actively looking. I was like ready
to date, ready to find my my my wife. I'm not
sure again how much I should say right now. Are
we saving that more of those details for later?
Should I share a couple more details now? I mean,
I won't ask again about. OK, so then I'll just
say this basically again, very long story, very
short. I didn't grow up religious, like Jewish
religious. I was Jewish, but I didn't grow up
religious. And I became religious after college
and 22 years old as a result of a whole spiritual
search. I didn't think I was going to find my
spiritual meaning in my own tradition, but I
did. Anyway, I was in the religious world. And
in the Jewish religious world, you do things
that very kind of specifically in terms of dating
and finding your partner. I mean, it could happen
in any way, but a lot of people kind of go through,
whoa, what's that? a lot of people could go through
or do go through like matchmakers. And so I met
with a matchmaker and when I told them like I'm
vegan, I'm an environmentalist, I'm into nature,
like hiking, he's like, sorry, I can't help you.
You know, I don't know anyone like you and religious,
like forget it. I'm sorry if you don't hear that.
Someone's like calling me to a different thingy.
Anyway. basically, I was set on my own and eventually
met my wife in other ways, more fitting ways.
And that's how we eventually got married. Yeah,
amazing how this went full circle and you became
the matchmaker at some point. Okay, so I think
this is a this question was a great segue for
my next question, which is, you know, chemistry
versus shared values. How important is it to
have shared values and to meet a vegan. We hear
all sorts of horror stories of vegans being with
non -vegans and having to go through the struggle
of it. At the same time, we hear stories about
vegans dating non -vegans with the secret plan
of converting their significant other to veganism.
Tom and Saul This was more of a chemistry story.
You did not know that you would share values.
And the rest of the people on the call, it was
truly a value focused thing. You knew even before
meeting that you shared the same outlook on the
world. So let's start with you, maybe Tom and
Saul. Yeah, when I met Tom, I wasn't vegan at
all, even though I loved animals and I had always
felt very passionate about them. I was very young
and I hadn't considered being vegan. But then
Tom introduced the idea to me and I watched a
video on Facebook that a friend shared of animal
abuse and animal agriculture and all of this.
that changed me so I went vegan overnight but
I was very grateful that Tom wanted to meet me
even though he knew that I wasn't vegan and that
my family comes from well we are Argentinian
Argentinian so we used to eat barbecues every
weekend you know and he wasn't scared about that
he he just wanted to meet me I don't know he
he felt inspired to to see who I was and I'm
grateful that I had the opportunity to change
my mind and I never felt that he had a plan to
convert me or change me in any way. It was natural
because I saw that these were values that resonated
with me and that now I had the opportunity to
change my behavior and do something that felt
good. Yeah, it helped that I thought she was
smoking hot. And so it didn't necessarily matter
if she was vegan or not. But, you know, my philosophy
is kind of that I think everybody is vegan by
default. Some people just they get confused along
the way. Like most children will say, you know,
of course, we should not be torturing animals
and raising them in darkness. And it's just the
world interferes and turns people against their
values. So I think most people do share vegan
values. It's just a matter of giving them the
chance to remember them and be reminded of them.
But, you know, at that time in my life, I was
in a very receptive phase of just wanting to
say sort of yes to every opportunity. And so
I met this this non vegan who I really connected
with. If it were today, I would probably think
of just. you know, skipping the hassle and going
through maybe a vegan dating website or going
to vegan events, you know, trying to just take
a bit of a shortcut. But I do think it's great
to be open to dating non -vegans because that's
ultimately how we can, you know, proliferate
our values and philosophy and spread more. That's
You know, the key to some very successful religions
is conversion, right? And so you can't convert
anybody if you are only meeting others who already
agree with you. Interesting. So you would recommend
people to open themselves to dating life with
non -vegans? I don't know that I could. If there
was a reality where Tom wasn't here and I had
been vegan for many years, I don't know that
I could because that's very fundamental in my
life now. Well, it's like there's non vegans
and then there's maybe like soon to be vegans.
So it's important to know the difference. You
might meet somebody who seems like a non vegan,
but they're actually a soon to be vegan and they're
just waiting for you to come along. Interesting.
Rachel, George. Yeah, I mean personally I I Don't
think it can work because of a fundamental difference
in values if I was to Be in a relationship with
a non vegan And I guess it's tried and tested
from my experience as well because actually when
I went vegan I was actually in a relationship
with a non vegan and it didn't work and we ended
up breaking up because Like, I'm an animal rights
activist and I'm with someone who's paying for
what's happened to animals. It just can't work.
But I do agree with Tom, though, that dating
non -vegans is a great way. It's a great way
to build bridges and to actually open that up.
But it would have to be under the condition for
me that the person was actually going to go vegan,
right? But luckily, both me and Rachel were vegan
and both very much involved in the vegan community
when when we met, so it just works right off
the bat. We didn't need to go through all that
stuff about who, you know, who you can't put
animal products in the fridge and all this kind
of, there's so many complications that arise
from this kind of stuff if you're with a non
-vegan, so yeah. And yeah, that's how my last
relationship was as well. However, the guy who
I was with did tell me. he was going vegan for
me and um yeah we like rescued pigs together
and things like that and then I'd like look at
our door dash orders and I started seeing that
he was ordering animal products and um it was
all a facade so for me after that I never wanted
to be with somebody unless I already knew they
were like a well -established animal rights activist
like not even just plant -based I was like very
set on the fact that like their ethics have to
be the same as mine. So do you believe that the
tactic of partnering with non -vegans as a way,
like Tom said, as a way to spread veganism is
a bad one? Um, in my experience, yes, and I do
know a lot of like vegan girls who have been
with men who, um, they've like gone vegan. and
getting them to convert. George said it seems
like it's easier for girls to convert men to
veganism, but that hasn't been the case with
me whatsoever, and a lot of people have known.
So I think it's, like Tom said, if it's somebody
who seems like they're pre -vegan, then yeah,
I guess it's great to make more vegans, but I
don't think that that necessarily always happens
with how indoctrinated people are so yeah it's
weird because i think women are better able to
um convince men to go vegan for a relationship
but i think men are more likely than women to
flake on the to to fake the whole veganism thing
to get into a relationship with a woman yeah
which is like what happened with my last relationship
before george like you do see so many just like
creepy guys in the vegan movement and you just
think like dude you're not in this for the animals
you're in this because the movement's made up
of 75 women there are unfortunately those kind
of guys in the movement so akiva let me ask you
this i i kind of understand that the The feeling
of that matchmaker you you mentioned, you know,
it's impossible You know someone who's Jewish
who cares about the environment who's also vegetarian
vegan? If you restrain yourself to looking only
for vegans don't you have to Prepare for a long
single life Before meeting someone the good question.
I mean, I think I became ready and interested
in meeting someone with marriage in mind when
I was 23 years old. And I got married when I
was 27. I met my wife when I was 26. So yeah,
people knew me. They liked me, thank God, but
they didn't know anyone for me. And it was interesting,
right around the time that I met my wife, all
these people had all these ideas all of a sudden
out of nowhere, and none of them were vegetarian
and vegan. For me, back then, I'll be honest
with you, I'm a bit of the odd person out here,
because my wife is not vegan. She is vegetarian.
She's been vegetarian since she was a kid. She
tried out veganism here and there, and even though
our first year of marriage, she went fully vegan,
and then she went back. So just want to put that
out in the open. I remember the first time that
dairy went into her oven, I felt like something
non -kosher was going into her oven. It was like
a serious moment for me, really, I'll be honest
with you. But thank God we've worked it out.
We've been married for 21 years. You know, but
even from the beginning and and I say this I
think it's an important point to say because
back then especially It's kind of like what like
I think George was saying maybe Tom. I think
Tom you said this Today it's different you know
today there are more vegans out there back then
to find like you know you know you said before
like she's jewish she's religious she's like
into like the environment nature hiking and she's
vegan like literally i didn't meet anyone like
that when i met my wife and she was vegetarian
i was like celebrating like crazy like seriously
right and she you know we had the whole like
healthy natural lifestyle together you know like
you know our first dates were like out there
in nature hiking and going swimming in lakes
and all that I was like, you know, it was so
many connections. But yeah, but it is the thing.
I understand the importance. And today, like
in my matchmaking work, it's a big thing. People
bring it up a lot. They ask me about it a lot.
And there's so many different responses, and
there's so many different approaches. I'd literally
just matched. We'll see where they go. They just
connected literally this week. But I just matched
a woman who I came across in my work who's actually
um was just dating someone who was amazing she
said she's like hardcore vegan he's like hardcore
not and she's like i can't i just can't you know
and even though she's got like you know so many
other things in him that she wants so i just
introduced her to like this amazing guy who is
hardcore vegan also we'll see where it goes there
are people listening who are in a relationship
with a non -vegan uh who whose values are not
shared by their partner What kind of advice would
you have for those people? And maybe let's start
with Tom and Saul. Yeah, I mean, I think throughout
history and every culture in every country, there's
a lot to be gained from mixing sort of different
groups of people together. Like think of all
the great music that's come from uh you know
blues music mixing with jazz mixing with electric
guitars i always relate everything to music you
know but um or it used to be that uh interracial
marriages were not a thing and it would have
been seen as like abominable and then so much
has been gained from opening that door or in
the united states we have the political parties
democrats and republicans can a democrat and
a republican get married together even though
they don't have the same values Of course, we
see that all the time. So, you know, there's
different, I think, layers of values. It's a
shame if people can't come together on the animal
rights issue. But it doesn't mean that they can't
relate on another value of how are we going to
care for our children? How are we going to take
care of our home, relate to our friends and neighbors?
And then, you know, ultimately, I think the important
thing is that people Remain vegan themselves,
you know, even if your partner is not vegan,
but you go and have children that's great that
you can then pass on some of your values to your
children and your children share those with their
friends and I mean Yeah, I don't know. It's complicated
because these days I would probably not imagine
Being with somebody who ate meat. I think I could
imagine being with a vegetarian but There's just
so many Levels that we can relate to people on
I think the vegan identity is is just one part
of our identity So we can connect to partners
on many different levels also Yeah, I'm not even
sure what your question was. I just kind of started
talking Advice for the people struggling with
the non vegan partner Yeah, I mean, um... Keep
being vegan. Yeah, there's different, yeah, keep
being vegan yourself, you know, your partner
doesn't change you. But then also think of just
all the different layers we have, like we are
vegans, yes, but there's other layers to our
personalities, our identities, you know, I'm
a musician, I like, you know, these kinds of
films, this kind of food, I like hiking, I love
my dogs, dancing, you know, you can find other
ways to connect with people. So it's very unlikely
that anybody is going to meet somebody who's
an exact clone. of themselves. And if you did
meet somebody who was an exact clone of yourself,
it would probably be a very boring relationship.
So really the differences between people, I guess
that's the takeaway message, is the differences
are where the interesting friction comes from
that allows for both partners to grow. So I think
we should see those differences as a good thing
as long as they aren't too big. You know, for
some folks, maybe being with somebody who's not
a vegan, that's too big of a difference. Whereas
for others, it might be something that can be
a source of some useful and interesting tension.
So I get, you know, being positive, basically.
Akiva, you accepted a compromise. Your wife did
not go vegan. She went vegetarian. Did you feel,
you know, tempted to go You know further and
ask her, you know, please, you know try being
vegan or did you accept that? Consent this Compromise
easily it's interesting because back then It
might be funny to hear this I don't know but
like back then the difference between vegan and
vegetarian was not nearly as stark as it is today
It's almost like two different movements two
different lifestyles today back then vegan vegetarians.
We were like all good buddies and best friends
you know we're like on the same page on the same
everything um you know against the horrors of
the uh of the animal agriculture industry i went
vegan 30 years ago and i feel like in the last
10 years or so it's been Very big split which
I'll be honest with you. I think is is unfortunate
I think it hurts the movement, but that's a separate
conversation for for a separate time I feel like
a lot of vegans are very condescending to vegetarians
when they too are doing so much good in the world
Maybe not as much as vegans, but still way better
than most people in the world again a separate
conversation I am like hardcore vegan, and I
wish everyone was vegan, and I wish my wife was
vegan, I'll be honest with you. And she knows
that, like full on. But when I met her 22 years
ago, again, it was like, we're like in the same
camp. We're like on the same team. Like, this
is great, you know? And again, like I said, she
even went vegan at the beginning of her marriage.
She was vegetarian longer than I was. She was
vegetarian since she was 10. I met her when she
was 24, you know? So it was very different. Today
feels different than it did back then. Um, and
look, you know, kind of go back to your question,
like, you know, what advice would I give someone
who's in a relationship with a non -vegan? Well,
first of all, you chose that relationship. You
didn't have to be that relationship. So first,
let's just start with that. You know, if you,
if you're really against being with a non -vegan,
then what are you doing? Let's, let's, you know,
take a look at your, at your decisions. And if
you are in a relationship with a non -vegan,
so clearly you're okay with that. I don't think
anyone should ever go into a relationship trying
to force anybody or expecting that anybody will
change anything about them. anything forget veganism
or anything else if you think they're going to
start liking your music where they're going to
start wanting to hike when they never hike today
in their life where they're going to you know
you know i don't know what you know like it's
not going to happen it might happen but you can't
expect it to happen if you do it's probably not
going to last very long um so if somebody's dating
a non -vegan or if a vegan is dating a vegetarian,
clearly you're okay with that, right? So on some
level, I don't see a problem. If you're not okay
with that, but you like the person so much, and
I'm just like holding out for them to be vegan,
or I know I'm gonna say the right thing, or show
them the right documentary to become vegan, it
might happen, it might happen, but let's be honest,
it might not. And so I just say, I think in general,
the most important thing is, with any value,
whether it's veganism or something else, to know
what you're flexible about and what you're not.
In the matchmaking world, we call it fixed. and
flex, and fix and flex, basically. Like, what
are you fixed about? Like, I can't change this,
and if you try to change this about me, we can't
be together. But there are things that I love
and I'm passionate about, but I'm flexible about
them. So you have to know where you're, which
value goes into which category, right? For me,
back then, like, again, I literally never met
a Jewish religious vegan before. So yeah, like
you said before, like, I might have been, like,
single forever. So I knew I needed to be flexible
about that. It wasn't... It wasn't much of a
dilemma for me. I knew I needed to be. I knew
also that I couldn't be with a meat eater. I
knew that the woman had to at least be a vegetarian.
There was no way I was gonna be in a house that
served meat. That was the end of anything. I
went out with girls just because whatever, you
know, people set me up and I knew it wasn't gonna
happen. They were like meat eaters. They weren't
into it. They were making fun of me. I went on
one day with a girl like made fun of me basically
for being vegan. I'm like, okay, can we get the
bill? I gotta go, you know? Like, it's not going
to happen. So, yeah, just being very clear, having
that clarity is super important. Going back to
those vegans struggling with a non -vegan partner,
can they learn something from your two failures,
George and Rachel? So, in my case, I wasn't vegan
when I started going out with that girl. I actually
became vegan in 2013 after I saw Gary Yourofsky's
speech in 2012 and I tried showing her the speech,
I tried showing her the stuff that changed me
and it was disappointing because I considered
her to be a very very compassionate person and
I think she was and that's why she wouldn't watch
the footage of the animals being slaughtered.
And there was just a fundamental breakdown in
ethics, in values, in differences. We discussed
our future together. It just wasn't going to
work. Because I mean, when I went vegan, it wasn't
just that I went plant based. I was like an animal
rights activist. Like I was on social media screaming
this from the rooftops about what's happening
to animals. I was wanting to get involved in
like street outreach and stuff like that. But
look, here's the complicated thing. I can't give
any advice to someone who's in a relationship
with a non -vegan and they're not happy with
that. Kind of like Akiva said, if you're in a
relationship with someone you ought to be happy
going into that relationship. The problem becomes
when you're in a relationship with someone because
you believe you have the same values and then
one of you changes your values part way through
that relationship and then there's often just
the fundamental breakdown and My advice to anyone
who's experiencing this, my only advice is just
try to get them to see what you saw. And if it
doesn't work, I can't advise anything because
relationships are complicated. Some people have
kids, some people are in marriages and have a
house together. So I can't go around being like,
you must do this, you must dump this person or
you must do that. All I can say is get them to
sit down, watch Dominion or Gary Yourofsky's
speech, whatever it is, and that's as far as
I can say. Yeah, and if it hurts you too bad,
you just gotta let them go. If that upsets you
every single day that they aren't seeing things
for what they are, seeing how horrible these
industries are, my advice is yeah, just figure
out a way to plan your out. If it makes your
life more complicated, like if you have kids
or a house, your happiness is also very important
so I think it might be better to divorce them
and find somebody more like you, I don't know.
In those situations though it's so complicated
that Sometimes you just can't give advice. It's
hard when someone has kids or something, it's
too hard to say what to do. Yeah, and that's
really hard too because I do know a lot of divorced
vegans whose kids will go over to their dad or
mom's house and eat non -vegan food, and then
there's a whole bunch of drama there. So I guess
just don't have kids with somebody unless you
know that you're going to be able to handle that.
Yeah, it's all yeah, it's there's all a lot of
complications that can come up though. We're
not we're not relationship gurus ultimately No,
you're being helpful Yeah, it is a emotional
open -heart surgery You mentioned a few times
that you are an activist George and you're also
an activist Rachel. Do you feel like you two
being vegan? just Made you even more vegan like
even more convinced and even more of an activist
and made you Radical even more radical, but the
good kind of radical I was already super active
and like what people call radical before I really
ever spoke properly to Rachel so It wasn't any
coincidence of us being together. It was more
that we connected with each other because we
were kind of involved in that movement, if that
makes sense. But I had not done street outreach,
maybe other than like flyering and stickering
like at the grocery store. Until I met George,
I always felt my place in like the activism scene
was rescue, rehabilitation, volunteering at sanctuaries,
things like that, online activism, but George
has definitely given me, like, more inspiration
to use my voice and also do some pretty extreme
demos that I never thought I would have done
before, so. But Rachel really calls them extreme
because she doesn't like talking to people. That's
what she means by extreme. They're not extreme
demos at all. Like, just, like, we did a milked
woman art installation and before I met George
I would never have seen myself like... practically
naked on the streets with um like milkers taped
to my chest and a sign that says dairy isn't
humane but um yeah he's definitely given me like
the confidence to speak my truth so i think it
is a yes okay tom and soul same question for
you yes uh could you repeat that question So
do you feel like being partnered with a vegan
made you even more radical in your outlook and
made you even more of an activist in this scene?
Yeah. You know, we have done many street outreach
events together. And when you're with somebody
else who does share those deep values with you,
then, you know, doing street outreach can be
a dating activity. It's a couple activity. And
that might even be some potential advice for
somebody who's with a non vegan or non vegetarian
is to invite them to do outreach with you. as
a bonding activity. It's like, OK, we're sharing
a life together. We might not be eating the same
things, but let's go do some outreach together
so you can see what's important to me. And I
think anybody who spends a few hours seeing the
footage that vegans show at outreach events and
receiving that material, it will definitely make
them think very deeply. About those issues, but
you know when I first met soul and soul is from
an Argentinian family and I had been vegan for
already Almost ten years and I should say it
was it was a girl in high school who turned me
vegan I was a pre vegan and there was a girl
I really liked and she basically said Tom we're
going vegan and showed me one video and that
was all it took. It's like, OK, I like you. I
resonate with this video. I'm vegan now. So and
we didn't even date or anything. I just had a
crush on her. But at the point when I met soul
and I was backpacking in South America and I
was just sort of saying yes to everything, I
was reevaluating who I was and I actually became
flexible with my my my diet while I was traveling.
And I even I tried one hamburger. And it was
disgusting. So after that, I said, OK, I'll be
vegetarian for this trip. I won't eat meat. And
when I met Sol and she was from a heavily meat
eating family and I lived with her family for
a while and she was not vegan. But then when
we when she started tuning into the vegan values
and said she wanted to become vegan, it sort
of made me like. five times more vegan than I
was previously, because now I had somebody who
was reinforcing those values in me, confirming
that this was something important to do. And
it was a part of myself that I didn't need to
try to ignore. And so since then, since teaming
up with a vegan partner, for me personally, I
am so much more of a vegan than I ever was. And
it's like, I would never again question or consider
being receptive to having a hamburger on the
streets of Columbia, like that would never cross
my mind today because now my veganism is so much
more deeply entrenched. It's in the marrow of
my bones. So I do think definitely getting a
vegan partner. It's like, you know, when you're
trying to do any activity or start any habit,
if you're trying to be a jujitsu master or whatever,
you need somebody to keep you disciplined. It's
going to be very hard to keep that discipline
up just by yourself. It's very helpful to have
somebody else who is reinforcing whatever it
is that you're trying to achieve. And I wanted
to add something about doing outreach. I'm like
Rachel. Well, she said that she was shy to talk
to people. I'm very shy. avoid conflict in my
life as much as possible. Just talking about
it makes me nervous. So I have done outreach,
but it's been me holding a screen or holding
a sign and having very short conversations with
people. I haven't really broken through that
barrier yet, but I'm... much better at composing
music that talks about animal rights and in a
more well not a more passionate way but more
soft like I think it talks to your to your heart
in a different way or through art you know like
this this book Rainer the house wolf that Tom
and I wrote and we're gonna publish very soon
it's not directly like a vegan book in your face,
but it has a vegan message that I think that
people who are non -vegan will resonate and they
will be introduced to the idea slowly and then
get to meet these characters, get to meet Patrick,
this pig who escaped the truck that was going
to the slaughter house. So yeah, I think that...
That's my way of doing it. And it helps me to
also speak my truth in this way. And Tom is very
supportive with that. He does his own art, of
course, and music that is that way. So we both
push each other to do it. Thank you. And I'm
looking forward to getting a copy of that book.
Akiva, that's interesting, you know, the intersection
of activism and being just vegan. Do you feel
like most vegan couples that you meet or that
you have interacted with are interested in getting
into activism in some way? I always think that
we are forced upon being an activist and to the
role of an activist. Is it a conversation that
people have with you when looking for a partner?
So it's interesting. First of all, I loved hearing
the answers just now of everyone. Thank you,
guys. It was a great question and great response.
It's really interesting. I feel like in my life,
I do know a couple like powerhouse couples who
are both activists, both vegans, both activists,
a couple here in Israel. Um, she's actually,
she's a tall, tall, maybe somebody who knows
about her. She actually got a position in the
government, uh, to be like in charge of animal
welfare, uh, issues in the country, which is
unbelievable. Like an office that never existed
before. Um, she's amazing. Her partner, uh, is
amazing. And they, they're an activist couple.
I know another great, um, Jewish half -Israeli
couple in Germany. He has all these vegan restaurants
near Rosenfeld, if anybody knows him. He's doing
incredible work. He's owned all these meat restaurants.
He watched one of the documentaries. Actually,
no, I think he heard a speech of Tal's, became
vegan overnight, and then eventually changed
all of his restaurants to vegan restaurants.
He's very successful, and he's an incredible
street activist together with his wife. Anyway,
the reason I say that, they're a bit from, in
my life, a bit more of the minority. I'll be
honest with you, my main life is in the Jewish
religious world, and unfortunately, there's not
that many vegans in the Jewish religious world.
When I say religious, I mean Orthodox, if that
makes more sense to people. That's where part
of my work is, trying to bring that voice more
into the Orthodox world and using traditional
Jewish sources to show that veganism is very,
very, not only accepted, but very, very supported
by Jewish teachings and values in our modern
day. So I feel like I don't personally see it
in my life very much I will say just in terms
of my own personal life, but my wife though,
you know again, she's not vegan She's vegetarians
very supportive of what I do when that was when
we first got married a bit over 20 years ago
My background is in education. I've been in education
Jewish education for over 20 years almost 25
years now Um, but it was really when I opened
up vegan rabbi about four or five years ago that
I really kind of stepped into that role again
as an activist. I was super heavily involved
with activism in college back in the day. That
was like my life more than classes were. Um,
and then like, you know, after that, you know,
um, and eventually getting married and raising
a family, education became my, my activism and
then vegan, uh, vegan rabbi kind of combines
all of that together and she's very supportive
and it's, and it's really cool because we, we
are still kind of like a couple in this, even
though I'm vegan and she's vegetarian because
If we have, you know, Shabbat is like a big time
to like have big meals and invite people over.
And I really feel like we're like the representatives
of awesome vegan food. Cause when people come
over, like our Shabbat meals are mostly sometimes
only vegan, right? And people love it. You know,
these non -vegans, non -vegetarians, they come
over like, wow, like if this what the food was
like, I could do that. I'd like, I can't tell
you how many times I've heard that. So our table
becomes a bit of like an activist tool. when
we go out right because you might know like in
the Jewish religious world like things are either
meat or dairy you know because you can't mix
the two so most people eat meat meals on Shabbat
so when we go out like they can't have dairy
there so tomorrow is eating tomorrow that's my
wife's name she's eating the same food that I'm
eating. It's all vegan. It's got no dairy in
it and has no meat. And people often turn the
conversation to how both of us eat and why. So
she shares a lot of the same values. So we're
not just like, I think you guys in this conversation
are more like activist couples than we are, but
she definitely supports what I do. And I have
to say, it's very proud of it because she believes
in it and is happy that so many people are responding
to it. That's good. That's really good. I'm happy
to hear that that you have this dynamic going
on Okay a question for you George and Rachel
Advice for best places to find those Vegan, you
know partners, I think that's one of the biggest
question I always hear asked again and again,
you know, where can I find that vegan partner?
But there's plenty around I think It's harder
for it was harder for Rachel because she's from
the States and it's such a huge country and everyone's
so spread out that I Think it is kind of harder
there to find a vegan partner In the UK, it's
extremely like we're an extremely dense densely
populated country and it's a small island so
for UK vegans, it's like look just join your
local vegan facebook group or get active and
there's there's plenty of people that you'll
be able to meet in your local outreach group
or whatever it is um but yeah with me with me
and rachel it was obviously online that we got
to know each other and i um one of my best friends
also met her husband welsh man in um like the
same free speech vegan groups and uh he moved
to America and uh yeah so I would suggest anyone
who's kind of in a more desolate area without
many vegans to uh yeah join online communities
and um yeah get yourself out there yeah and also
um there's also plenty of like vegan dating events
and stuff even there's vegan camp out is coming
up in the UK the end of August, they do like
a vegan speed dating event there. So everyone
is welcome to fly over for that as well. So please
get your tickets for that and come on over and
we can all meet. And for anyone who's listening
now who's single, there's a speed dating event
now that will be happening there, I think. So
another great way, go to things like festivals
and that kind of stuff, because yeah. What about?
activism events, I feel like those events are
more serious, but there are often, you know,
after parties, which can be a good, you know,
setting for that kind of, you know, energy. Would
that be a good event, a good, you know, place,
moments to look for a partner? 100 % because
not so firstly, I just want to separate You shouldn't
be flirting and chatting with people during the
activism event. We're there for the animals,
right? It's a focus, yeah. But it's, yeah, getting
act, being in those activism groups is a perfect
way to find someone who has a fundamental matching
beliefs with you because you're there. speaking
with a fellow activist, you're meeting someone
who's very passionate about the thing you're
actually passionate about and all the social
events and stuff with it can come after, you're
going to be meeting with a group of people who
are really aligned with your values and especially
with how outreach groups work as well because
the different animal rights organizations have
different ways of doing things, different kind
of values and you might find that you're more
aligned with people who do activism with a certain
animal rights group than you are others because
there's so many different ways of advocacy and
stuff in the vegan movement. So yeah, it's a
great way to get to meet people. Tom and Saul,
you are so far away from the city. You are in
the countryside. you know, for someone looking
for a partner must complicate things even further.
Do you have any advice of, you know, how to go
over that obstacle? Well, I mean, yeah, it would
be difficult to find anyone vegan or not vegan,
because we're so far away from everything. But,
I mean, if we Wanted to we could go to more events
in in cities and stuff. We just enjoy being by
ourselves in the forest Yeah, I mean where we
are our closest town about 25 minutes away has
1 ,000 people we do our grocery shopping in a
town of 4 ,000 people about 45 minutes away and
And so there's only a handful of people here,
but we know six or seven vegans You know we know
a surprising amount of vegans considering how
sparsely populated this area is so even if you're
in the middle of you know like we have a friend
in kansas city where i grew up and she's organizing
a vegan festival in rural kansas that's taking
place in september of this year so there are
always opportunities if you're trying to specifically
find vegans but you know another thing i would
consider is uh don't maybe consider don't Don't
try to find a partner. Like, let it happen. Very
often, I've found that when I'm specifically
trying to accomplish something or do something,
it doesn't happen. And then when I stop searching,
that thing suddenly reveals itself. And I've
heard other people say the same thing when it
comes to looking for a partner. It's like, if
you're trying to find this person, if you're
going to all these vegan dating events because
you're actively searching, That might work for
a lot of people, but also going to a vegan festival
or outreach and not looking for a partner, but
just going there because it's something that
you're passionate about. And then the partner
could happen as a consequence of that. But I
think we should maybe think about how directed
and specifically we want our approach to be.
Maybe it's more about receptivity than actively
trying to snag a partner and Coerce them into
being vegan by whispering to them in their dreams
or whatever, you know, like, just be receptive
and maybe what you're looking for will happen
automatically, no matter where you are in the
world. Akiva, I'm not sure you agree with this
advice. Should people consider hiring a matchmaker?
Because I feel like hiring a matchmaker is like...
kind of a luxury. That's how I perceive it. And
kind of the most efficient, like the atomic bomb.
Like this is where you go to if, you know, you
really want results. Am I right in my perception?
Yes. And I don't want to say no, but I'll say
this. Well, first of all, in the Jewish world,
matchmaking was... First of all, it's a very
traditional thing in the Jewish world that like
you go to a matchmaker and they help you like
find a partner, da -da -da, right? It was never
for payment, at least not upfront. If they found
you somebody, say give them a gift, a gift of
your choice, you know, because that's like what
you should do. But there's no payment upfront.
In modern matchmaking, Jewish, non -Jewish, it
doesn't matter. There is payment upfront, it's
the whole thing. But so, in terms of modern matchmaking,
I definitely hear what you're saying in terms
of it's like a luxury and it's not for everyone.
And it's not for everyone, for sure. Having said
that I do think it's a balance of being Proactive
even very proactive and then totally coming into
this place of like faith and belief and staying
connected and You know, I'm really into the whole
kind of spiritual side of dating and searching
for your soulmate, your life partner. There's
a lot of beautiful spiritual teachings that help
people align the way. And one of them is just
remembering like they're out there, like they
exist, they're real, they're living right now,
they're doing things right now, you know. talk
to them, talk to them in your head, like say
hi to them every morning, like good morning,
you know, and um, like really like it helped
you to like, you know, really believe that this
is possible because so many singles believe it's
not possible. Um, but again, that's kind of a
good, different kind of conversation, but I do,
I do value the place of being proactive and it
doesn't mean like being like obsessive or compulsive
or like making it like you're a hundred percent
thing in life, but it does mean like, you know,
like what's that before, like putting yourself
in good places where it's more likely you're
going to find someone, meet someone with your
values. Now, where I met my wife, I didn't go
there to meet my wife. I was 24 years old, I
think, at the time. I was ready and open to meet
somebody, but I went there to get trained as
a Jewish environmental educator. I wound up meeting
my best friends and my wife, and out of that
season and the next season, all of these couples
came out who eventually got married. We just
show that this is a great place for people to
meet. Go there because you value this. You're
a good chance you're going to find someone who
also values this. And you're going to want to
live with that person because you both value
this thing together. So whether that's a job,
or this was a three or four month gig that I
did at this environmental center, or it's a lecture,
or it's a retreat, or it's a weekend thing, or
whatever it might be, or it's a rally, it's a
protest, being part of an organization. Definitely.
I think that's the best thing anybody can do
is putting yourself in situations where like,
yeah, there can be people who care about the
things that you care about. And, um, and I'll
just add one other thing to that is like, don't
be shy to tell people, yeah, I'm single and I'm
looking for somebody, you know, here's like my
top three things. The more people know, the more
people thinking about you and the more people
I, I sometimes have like online singles events
for Jewish vegans and vegetarians. And let's
be honest, it is such a tiny niche. It's like
ridiculous, right? If I cut it down into like,
age group and Jewish denomination, I'll have
like three people on the call, right? So I opened
up to all ages, all backgrounds, all Jewish denominations,
and then I'll have like a sizable group. And
I tell them, even if you don't meet someone on
this call, more people now know about you, right?
And that's just how the world works. The more
people that know that you're looking for someone,
you know, hey, maybe they know somebody for you,
or maybe you know someone for them. It's almost
like a community approach to to matchmaking also.
There's something beautiful to that. So I guess
my next question is about how do we ensure that
this relationship lasts? How do we establish
that relationship? And maybe a tip is to go and
live in the forest, far from anyone else. But
yeah, what is your answer to that question? Are
you talking about from a vegan perspective or
like in general? In general, and I'm curious,
is there a vegan aspect to this that should be
considered? As far as making relationships last,
yeah, that's something I guess I can't answer.
That's all gonna be down to each individual relationship.
But from an actual vegan perspective, I think
it's just about making sure that you Kind of
have like is because vegans are are all very
different, right? and it might be to do with
working past your differences on certain issues
because Even within the vegan community we have
debates about random stuff like all the time
We're not like there's a lot of diversity of
thought in the vegan movement So my advice would
be for making those relationships last would
be to just focus on the thing that you do bond
on, which is being against the exploitation of
animals, because we can all have these very long
and boring debates about God knows what. But
I think as long as that person shares that fundamental
belief with you, then that trumps so many of
the other things that you might have differences
on, like Like Tom said, you can get Republicans
and Democrats can be in relationships with each
other. And that's great, especially if they're
vegan. And they can argue about who should have
been elected. Should it have been Trump or should
it have been, what was her name? Kamala Harris.
But the main thing is the animals. That's the
reason that that's the fundamental bond that
you have. And do you agree that it is important
to have healthy couples in this vegan movement.
I do think that there's a history of, you know,
vegan couples making progress for this movement,
time and time again, starting with the vegan
society, I think it was founded by a couple.
Yeah, there needs to be a good example of a vegan
everything in the vegan movement, we have to
show that we are a diverse group of people and
that whatever we do works in many different ways.
I want vegans of all religions, all ethnicities,
single, married, all different body types, different
political beliefs. I want us all in this movement
regardless of what we look like or what our relationship
situation is or whatever. So yeah, having Having
influential vegan couples and strong vegan couples
in the animal rights movement is a fantastic
idea. Great. Tom and Saul, do you have something
to add? Yeah, as far as making a relationship
last, I think it helps to connect on multiple
levels. Like, of course, the vegan and valuing
animal well -being is a very profound level to
connect on, but It would also probably be helpful
to have other interests in common. You know,
Sol and I make music together. We go on hikes.
We play with our dogs. I think the more levels
you can connect with somebody, the stronger is
sort of the web of your connection. And also,
as Akiva was saying, the importance of food is
not to be undervalued and preparing food together,
sharing food, because certainly veganism, there's
a lot of philosophical elements at work, but
at the end of the day, a big part of it comes
down to what is on the table in front of you.
And I personally think it's very important to
be Enjoying good wholesome food together of course
it's wonderful to have the occasional process
whatever go out to eat but there is something
that's very connecting about. Preparing food
together sitting down over a table just enjoying
a good old fashioned home cooked meal so that
that is an expression of veganism and it's also
something that really strengthens a relationship.
And I wanted to share an advice that someone
gave to us in our travels. We met this couple
that they were not vegans. I don't know what
they were, but they had been together for 50
years, 60 years. It was a very, very long time.
And we asked them, how do you do this? How did
you manage? And they said, never go to sleep
having had an argument that wasn't resolved.
And that kept in my mind for all this time and
we have almost been together for 12 years and
I can count with the fingers of one hand the
times that I have gone to sleep mad at Tom and
that I have not resolved it. Maybe you don't
need to resolve it with words sometimes, but
sometimes just hugging or... placing your hand
in their shoulder doing something like that can
resolve the tension so much better than with
words and There will be things that we will not
agree on ever, you know, but there's always the
The trust and the honesty and the love so that's
I think what makes it work How long have you
been together George and Rachel? Is it two, three
years now? Yeah, it'll be three years in November.
So you're the youngest couple. So three years
for you, Tom and Saul 12. And then Akiva, how
long? We're coming up to 22 years this fall.
OK, so I want to hear your advice, Akiva. So
I heard lots of different ideas and I know I
have all different kinds of ideas in my head,
but can you maybe just refocus me with the question,
the original question? Yes, how do we make it
last? How do we make it last? That's the big
question. You'll learn a lot of things along
the way. It's interesting. I kind of alluded
to it before without going into any detail, but
even in our dating process. My wife and I had
a lot of ups and downs and breakups, even, believe
it or not. We broke up a few times, actually,
before we got married. It's quite a story. So
by the time we got engaged, we thought, yeah,
we went through everything. That's all behind
us now. Now marriage is going to be simple. And
remember this one rabbi came up to us at an engagement
party we had. and it's like I'd love to sit down
with you and talk to you about like you know
what in Hebrew we call Shalom by it which is
like peace in the home and we're like looking
at each other like we've been through all this
stuff like we know like he doesn't know our story
you know we're gonna be just fine Then we realize
only later once you get married like it's it's
tough. You know, it's all the great stuff. It's
all the romance It's all the connection. It's
all the enjoying beating being together But it's
also let's be honest like being in a relationship
being in a marriage comes also with a lot of
great challenges You know, even if you share
lots of common things Which I think Tom was the
one like who said like you should have more in
common than just like your veganism Which I agree
with you know, my wife think God and I we have
a lot in common You know again going back to
the nature and the hiking and the natural living
and the healthy living and all that stuff. But
it's never enough. There's always going to be
insult. You just said that. There's always going
to be stuff you fight about. There's always going
to be stuff you don't agree with, you know, ever.
So what's the trick? I mean, or the secret or
the advice? I think it's, you know, really...
I mean, I think so many things can be said on
this. I'll just, like, pick one. But no, this
is one of many. I think one of the best things
I could say to answer that question is to know
that the person you're with, just like you, is
a divine soul brought into this world. right?
And you both are two divine souls together to
do incredible work in this world. And even if
it gets hard sometimes, and even if there's tension,
that's all part of the work, right? Literally,
like, your partner is, like, literally divinely,
like, appointed to, like, nudge you sometimes,
because that's part of your personal growth and
part of your personal transformation, right?
In Judaism, we look at marriage as, like, again,
all those great things, all the great things
that we all, like, say, but also, like, the most
powerful way We're the most powerful medium for
personal transformation and personal growth,
right? That you can only become your truest and
highest self through the experience of being
in a partnership with somebody. Because that's
where you really get like tested and pushed and
all those great other things, right? So I think
just like remembering even in the harder times,
like we're both souls who came into this world
to do good work into this world and to be with
one another to do that work and to help each
other grow. I think that could be a tremendous
aid in creating a more successful and joyous
marriage. Thank you. I want to get to the topic
of children in the vegan community. But first,
sex. And there's this whole thing about, you
know, let's make make veganism sexy. And you've
seen all you know, the the PETA ads and And there
is, I feel like, an attack on vegans on that
front, too. You know, the soy boiting and then
the fact that we're all weak and unhealthy. All
of that doesn't cry, you know, sexy to me. So
is veganism sexy? What do you make of those PETA
ads? Veganism is very sexy. And we talked about
this last time, Ryan, but you know being vegan
for long enough and really probably not for even
very long it changes the way that you taste and
smell and that's why like you know i would not
ever consider kissing a carnivore because i mean
for many reasons but because they will just taste
terrible it actually is the the acidity from
animal products changes your chemistry so that
you know you become physically unappealing to
somebody who has been tuned to a more pure way
of living. So is it sexy to smell good and taste
good? Or is it sexy to smell like you've been
consuming cadavers? You know, like I think it's
pretty obvious that smell and taste, you know,
they operate on us at a more subliminal unconscious
level than sight. But that's very important.
But in terms of sight, also, vegan diet is very
good for purifying the skin, for clearing out
toxins. You might not be a heavyweight champion,
a big muscle builder, or you might be. There's
plenty examples of those incredible vegan athletes,
which we can all point to. But yeah, at the end
of the day, is there anything sexier than being
true to your values, even though it's not what
the masses are doing. I think that's the sexiest
thing a person can do, is be willing to speak
up and take a position that isn't endorsed by
the dominant culture, but is important to them
personally. Also, not eating carcasses is very
sexy. Yes. Not being a cannibal. Rachel George?
I've never thought of veganism as being sexy,
but I do understand, particularly from those
who are attracted to men in the movement, that
being a male vegan is sexy because male vegans
are underrepresented as vegans. I think males
only make up about 25 % or something of the movement.
And what it shows, I guess, when particularly
a man because so much propaganda gets chucked
at us as men about you have to eat animals to
be masculine you have to kill animals to be masculine
you're not allowed to show empathy for the weak
and defenseless which violates the principles
of masculinity it's such ridiculous propaganda
because we wouldn't you know if if a man said
um yeah i i think it's fun to harm children no
women would no woman would find that attractive.
But then the beef industry has all this propaganda
they chuck at us that is convincing people that
it's sexy and masculine to harm little calves
in the dairy industry and in the beef industry.
It makes absolutely no sense. So while I don't
personally see anything sexy about veganism,
I do understand that side of the argument. What
do you think, babe? Yeah, I think that Yeah,
if somebody is vegan and you're really vibing
with them and then find out they're vegan, I
think it can definitely make somebody more attractive.
I don't think veganism as a thing is sexy, but
I think just knowing somebody is very compassionate
and cares about. the most oppressed beings on
the planet like that definitely does make somebody
more attractive in my eyes and other people's
eyes as well who are vegan so Akiva I'm really
curious when someone is looking for a partner
and comes to see you Do they have to make a list
of what attracts them, you know physically to?
You know in someone Yeah, it's one of the questions
I asked them both in terms of their values and
ideals and passions and interests and hobbies
that and also yeah Let's get a sense of you know,
what kind of person you're attracted to because
different people are attracted to different kinds
of people different everything But I also learn
more about that specifically as I share ideas
with them that I can kind of you know They say
oh no way that not my type where well, it definitely
you know that that You know, clarifies it even
much more than a than a list, let's say. But
yeah, definitely a part of the process, the beginning
part of the process. And did you want to add
something about this sex related conversation?
So it's interesting, as you can imagine, I don't
talk about the sexy part of veganism in my work.
But I really like what was just said here. I'll
use the word attractive. uh instead and i do
i agree pretty much i'll be just reiterating
what i just heard because i agree with what with
what was said Yeah, it's like when you're like
strong to your values, strong to like what's
right, something that's righteous, something
that doesn't go with the flow. You're not afraid
to go against the flow. I mean, that's like,
wow. You know, people are attracted to that.
That's strength. That's strength. There's this
ancient Jewish teaching that says, you know,
who is the strong person? The person who can
overcome their, their evil inclination. That's
called strength. That's the one who can like
bench press. 3000 pounds, you know someone who
has the ability to overcome their their natural
lusts Right and actually in this week's Torah
portion, right and many other places in the Torah
It equates many times eating meat with lust people
eat meat because of lust Right and we are like
in other traditions for sure, right? We're supposed
to overcome our lust and if you can and if you
do Wow, that's strength and that's attractive
Okay, let's talk about children now. Any plans
for you, Tom and Sol, George and Rachel for having
children? I know the answer for you, George and
Rachel. But yeah, Tom, Sol. Well, I never was
someone who was interested in having kids. Like
when I was a girl, I wouldn't play with... babies
and, you know, like baby toys or anything. I
preferred horses. We still don't know. We will
see what happens. And I used to think that I
didn't want to bring another human into this
world because it would cause more... Well, bringing
a human... Well, they take resources. There are
things that need to be done, you know, to exist
in this world, but... Tom opened my mind saying
that well, we have kids and we give them our
values, share our values with them. We might
be raising someone who is doing activism, doing
good things, you know, to change the world and
to make it better. But still, we don't know.
We're enjoying having our dogs and that responsibility
is good enough for now. Yeah, you know, before
having children, it's good to warm up maybe with
a few house plants, try out a dog or two. If
you can make it through that, then you're ready
for kids, maybe. But I also understand the perspective
of somebody who doesn't want to bring children
into the world for whatever reason. I personally
think that not reproducing is not going to be
a winning strategy for the movements over the
long term. That's how the gene pool disappears.
If you look at the success of many major world
religions, not all of them, but like Hinduism,
Christianity, Islam, they're all related to producing
and having as many children as possible as fast
as possible. I don't think that's a good strategy
either. reproduction and passing along your values
to a new generation, I think, is a wonderful
thing. And it's a crucial part of the movement
for at least some of us to be doing that. So
I think for Sol and I personally, although we're
not in a rush to do it, and I wouldn't say we
have plans to do it, I'm sure it will happen
eventually because it's just... an amazing way
to express our love. And I'd always wonder, you
know, what what kind of if we didn't do it, I'd
always wonder what kind of child we might have
had. So I think that's something we will explore
eventually. But I know many couples that have
had children in the very beginning. And for some
of them, it works out great. But for others,
as soon as you have a child, it's like the attention
that you would have been spending on your partner
is now focused on this new entity. And and so
you don't necessarily have as much time to explore
your own personal relationship in advance. So
I've I really value that we've had these 12 years
together to not have children and to get to know
each other. And then if we've survived this,
then, yeah, I'm sure we can handle some kids
eventually. So you are a maybe that's that's
fun because George and Rachel, you can convince
them not to have children and I keep you can.
try to convince them to have children. So George
and Rachel, what is your response? Well, look,
I don't think we're going to be here on this
call that I don't think we're going to be able
to convince anyone to do anything. But yeah,
one of the reasons that me and Rachel clicked
so well is because neither of us wanted children.
A lot of it plays into the stuff. So we're saying
at the start about adding new suffering beings
to the world and you know like we say adopt don't
shop um maybe adopt don't pop could be a vegan
saying with regards to that because there's plenty
of children in orphanages who need a home and
we can pass on our values that way and we would
just see it as a a big gamble wouldn't we to
have a kid because you just don't know there's
even notable incidents there's actual notable
cases i'm not going to name who they are pretty
well -known animal rights activists in the movement
who have had kids and the kid grows up and you've
added someone who's paying for what happens to
animals to the world and that's a risk we didn't
want to take and even I think even and this is
completely unrelated but even if we did think
that it would even if it was in line with our
values to actually have kids don't think we wouldn't
we would have them anyway just with how expensive
stuff is these days and it just looks really
tough like all our friends who have kids like
they tell us all the stories and it to be honest
it just looks like a nightmare so anyone who's
listening who's a parent can attest to that like
my mate talked about how he's on a flight back
from Brazil the other month and his you know
how a like two -year -old daughter was like screaming
and stuff all the way home all the way on the
flight and It yeah It isn't for me in any case,
but it used to be before I was vegan I actually
did want to have kids but then Many things that
I came across as a result of being in the movement
has had made me change my opinion. I don't know
Yeah, well and to touch base on Tom bringing
up that like many religions are rooted in like
having kids and passing that tradition down to
the kids. I have seen that happen a lot, but
with veganism and with religion, I know a lot
of people who are raised super Christian and
they're atheists now, or who dabbled in atheism
and then went back to Christianity, but I think
it's a huge thing that children always want to
rebel against their parents. at some point and
you have to deal with knowing that you may have
reproduced and brought another animal abuser
to the planet because you can't really control
what your kid does outside of the house or once
they're an adult they could grow up to be like
a farmer or something that's a huge fear of mine
I would feel so bad if I knew that all my work
for the animal rights community has just become
obsolete because I brought forth a farmer. My
own dad is a fisherman and was a hunter. So I
didn't grow up with his values. He doesn't shoot
anymore. He still fishes, but he doesn't shoot
because he said I've had some kind of effect
on him there. But yeah, that's just one example.
Yeah, being a fisherman is in the gene pool.
It's a risk. Akiva, what is your answer to that
question? Big question and super fun to hear
everyone's answers. Yeah, as you can imagine,
and as you might know, having kids in the Jewish
tradition is strong, very strong value. Even
a mitzvah, as we call it, a commandment to have
children. According to Judaism, like, you have
to have kids, you know. You don't have to have
a ton of kids. It's interesting, even though
a lot of Orthodox and ultra -Orthodox families
today do have many kids. I have friends who have
eight kids, six kids. I have a friend who is
one of 15 children. Now, that's not the norm,
but it does exist, just so you know. My grandmother,
maybe some of your grandparents are also, because
that was a different world even just two generations
ago. My grandmother was the youngest of 13 children,
and my grandfather was the youngest of 10. They
were both from Poland. Right? Um, like also in
Judaism, I have to say it's like a survival skill.
Like if we don't reproduce, we're done. Like
we're, we're, we're just getting back to pre
Holocaust numbers now. It's kind of crazy. Right?
So like we needed to keep our numbers up. Um,
and I know that's like a little bit of a dark
thing to share here, but whatever. We're talking
about having kids. Um, like ha kind of like marriage,
having kids is like the best thing ever. And
the craziest thing ever. Like seriously the best
thing ever and like why in the world would you
have kids kind of thing, right? It's the hardest
thing ever also for sure without a doubt. My
kids are now getting older, you know, which on
some level makes it easier. Our kids, we have
four kids from nine to 19 years old and it makes
it somewhat easier, but then it just comes with
like, you know, new issues and problems like
the teenage years. But yeah, like you said, Rachel,
like you never know. you know where your kids
are going to go or how they're going to turn
out and that goes with religious traditions and
with like diets and all all different kinds of
i'm so different than my parents you know my
dad thought i was going to go to west point and
like you know become a corporate something i
don't know what you know and i like take a left
turn somewhere and like went in a very very different
direction you know um you never know like because
my wife is vegetarian and we'll just share more
personally like She raised her kids the way she
eats, right? So my kids are not vegan. They were
all raised vegetarian. I had a job for many years
where I was out of the house literally for like
half the time. I missed like half of their upbringing
just because I was like a teacher tour guide.
I was on the road with groups a lot here in Israel.
Thank God I can say I think I'm a really good
father. So I had like a good quality time with
my kids and even more so now that I work from
home. But yeah, you don't know. But I think the
most important thing and the strongest thing
and the greatest reason to have kids is right,
it's passing on those values. So even if though
my kids... Right are not vegan. They know that
I'm vegan They know why I'm vegan and they and
they've heard those values. They've absorbed
it, right? Like again, like one of the big things
like, you know My wife and I share in common
is like healthy eating our kids are all like
amazing healthy eaters you know, they're eating
salads like all day long, you know, and So, you
know you see it as your kids get older You can
see the impact that you made on your kids, you
know, and it's not only their diet It's how they
are what kind of people they are How do they
speak? How do they act? How do they show up in
the world? And like, as we say in Hebrew, I'm
proud of my kids. I'm very proud of my kids.
You know, I'm proud of how they have turned out
and are turning out. And that, I believe, is
a big part of making the world a better place.
If you believe in your values, pass them on.
And even though you're right, you don't know
which way they're going to go. You do your best
and then you start seeing your kids like wow
being those kind of people that you really Proud
of them to be it's an amazing thing. So Tom and
soul who convinced you Everybody had very good
points and you know, I appreciate the points
brought up by George and Rachel about the tendency
for Kids, especially when they're teenagers or
early adults to want to rebel against family
values. I think probably all of us rebelled in
some small way But, you know, if your parents
and the culture has instilled values deeply enough
in you, you know, like when you rebel as a teenager,
you don't just become a homicidal mass murderer
because I'm going to rebel against the culture,
right? There are lines that will not be crossed.
So I guess for vegan parents, it depends on how
well you have instilled values in your children,
which will determine to what degree they're going
to want to rebel. Will they consider killing
innocent, helpless beings, a cool form of teenage
rebellion. I think if you've done your job right
as a parent, that will never even cross their
minds. And we've got some very good vegan friends
here in the area who raised their child vegan,
and he's 17 years old. But he goes to friends'
houses, and when there's non -vegan food, he
doesn't even consider taking it. You know, he's
young enough. There's still time for some sort
of anti vegan rebellion to manifest but I really
don't see it coming just because They have invested
so much of their personal time into their child's
upbringing, you know, it wasn't just We're gonna
send him away like they actually have homeschooled
him and Really spent more time than most parents
have on their hands to invest in their child
But I think for vegan parents, you don't have
to homeschool, but you do have to spend a lot
more of your own personal time making sure that
those values are passed on. Because if you do
just send them to a public school, and they're
surrounded by all of their friends, and kids
are such social entities, and there's so much
about wanting to fit in with the group, that
it is very easy for... maybe sinister values
to slip through. So I think it really comes down
to how well have you passed on those values to
your kids so that it won't even cross their minds
to want to murder and cause the suffering of
another animal. Yeah, I mean, our answer remains
the same. We'll probably have kids, but I understand
the arguments on both sides, certainly. And I
do fear that it might be very expensive, but
it could also not be. It just depends on how
you do it and maybe you can live more humbly.
The way that Tom and I live, we don't spend much
money. I mean, we stay a lot at home and hang
out in the forest. We don't go out to eat a bunch
and things like that. And I think that... parenting,
there are different ways to do it so it can be
more affordable. Otherwise my family couldn't
have had three kids, you know, coming from Argentina
from a kind of a poor background and all these
other families that I know and they did have
kids and they have a beautiful relationship which
I hope that one day I can feel what my mom feels
for her kids, you know, that love that I know
if I needed her heart, she would give it to me
to save me. And I think that that's a wonderful
human experience. And I'm curious. Orphanages
are a great option, too. That was another good
point from George and Rachel is adoption is for
sure an option. Yeah. And people who are on the
fence and don't know if they want to have kids.
Yeah, don't do it. You shouldn't be on the fence
about it. And if you have children, don't send
them to school. I did the whole episode about
that with the great Peter Grape psychologist
at Boston University. Go check out the episode,
homeschool them. That's the way to go. OK, so
I think that that's all the time we have. Did
you want to add something before I stop the recording?
I just want to say this was so fun and I feel
like we can keep going for like another hour.
Really, just your questions are amazing. I love
hearing everyone's answers. So like really thank
you for having me. I wish my wife was here. She
would have really enjoyed this as well. I think
you guys would have liked her also a lot, even
though she's not fully vegan. Although she's
like, I would say that she's between vegetarian
and mostly vegan these days, which is really
cool to see without me saying very much at all.
But anyways, such an awesome and important conversation.
And if I could just share one last closing thought,
you don't have to use it, whatever. But just
the idea that I believe, as again, I imagine
in other religious and spiritual traditions,
there's this belief that the future is going
to be a much better place, that we're going towards
improvement. and betterment and perfection even,
we can say. And Judaism definitely believes in
that. We call it Tikkun Olam, which is called
the fixing of the world. We're not yet there,
so we're experiencing the broken phase of the
human story with all of its beauty and goodness
at the same time. But there is this belief that
the world will return to a state of beauty and
perfection in the future. And along with that,
the return to the original human diet given by
God uh, which is completely vegan, which is talked
about in the first chapter of Genesis, verse
29. All right. So, uh, even though it gets hard
and bumpy and all over the place, and are we
ever going to get there? I just, I, I gain a
lot of, um, faith and, um, strength from the
fact that like, it's, it's almost like predestined,
like we're going to get there. We just got to
like, do what we each need to do in order to
get there, but we're going to get there one day.
Beautiful parting words. Any more comments? Yeah,
sure. Just to reiterate, I love the positivity
from Akiva there, and I do see that the vegan
movement and the animal rights movement is gaining
momentum. Sometimes it doesn't seem that way,
like in recent years there's been a surge of
the carnivore diets and all this anti -vegan
sentiment, but that is a reaction to how successful
our movement is and continues to be. And it's
all about, you know, where you're looking at
on the chart. If you look at just the last five
years, are there more vegans today than five
years ago? I don't know. If you look at the last
20 years or the last 50 years, there is 100 percent
a far greater vegan presence in the world. I
think Akiva, you can see that in Israel very
clearly. Israel is, from what I understand, an
incredibly vegan country now. So if it can happen
in Israel, it can happen everywhere. And we've
just got to keep building momentum wherever we
are. So everyone, we'll just add then a final
word so that we're not the only ones who don't
say anything at the end. Thanks everyone for
joining in and great conversation. We hope everyone
who listened to it can take any of our useful
advice we potentially gave throughout the podcast.
Thank you everyone. Thank you for the optimism.
Thank you for the advice and the insights. I
do believe this will be helpful for people and
it has been really, really fun. Yes. So thank
you. Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly
invite you to share this podcast with the vegans
you know. Let's encourage more people to take
action. Again, thank you so much for caring and
I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.