WEBVTT

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Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan

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and today we address one of the hottest topic

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in the vegan community, romantic relationships.

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We answer all the important questions, dating

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questions such as should I date a fellow vegan

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or go with chemistry and open my life to carnis?

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Where can I find a vegan partner? Can I turn

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my partner vegan or am I deluding myself? but

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also questions about lasting relationships, making

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veganism sexy, or choosing to have kids. And

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to answer all those questions, we have our in

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-house professional matchmaker, Rabbi Akiva Gersh,

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also known as the vegan rabbi. He had a hand

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in forming who knows how many loving relationships,

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so listen carefully to his advice. Plus... two

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loving activist couples. George and Rachel Martin.

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You know George as Carnism Debunked. He has been

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on the show many times, and if you follow him

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on social media, you've seen Rachel too, and

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Rachel has the same burning flame for animal

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rights. Then, Tom and Saul, who recently came

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on the podcast to promote their illustrated book.

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Reynard the house wolf. They are a couple of

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artists and activists living remotely in nature.

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And every time I look at Sol's art, I am reminded

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of how authentic and inspiring their lives is.

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Visit the episode notes and connect with Akiva,

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George, Rachel, Tom and Sol. And if you liked

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this episode, share it with your fellow vegan.

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I want to start with maybe asking you to share

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your love stories. How did you meet? And how

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did you know that your partner was the right

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person for you? And I think that would be a great

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way to also introduce yourselves. Who would like

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to start? We are Tom and Sol. We live in the

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Upper Peninsula, Michigan. And we first met 12

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years ago. I was recently graduated from the

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university, didn't really know what I was doing

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with my life. So I took a backpacking trip in

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South America, just bought a one -way ticket

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and I was visiting different places, playing

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music. One day I was just playing music in a

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park in Lima, Peru, and Sol walked up to me and

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asked if she could listen to my music. And I

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found out later that she'd actually been following

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me around town all day. With my mom? Yeah, stalking

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me. The story became more sinister when I heard

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the details later. But yeah, that's really just

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it. Traveling and playing music. And I think

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we knew we were right for each other just because

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we both went totally crazy and were willing to

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cross oceans to be with one another. So you really

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only do that for the right person. that is so

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romantic okay uh george rachel yeah so we're

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also an international couple um i'm from the

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uk and rachel is american or we're living in

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the uk at the moment um we had always known each

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other in like the facebook groups and stuff yeah

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like all of the free speech vegan groups uh i

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knew george he was quite notorious for always

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speaking his opinions and uh yeah being brave

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enough to like combat the norm and so uh yeah

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we knew each other from like since 2017 but we

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reconnected on um instagram like i think it was

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like 2020 2021 or something we'd always been

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friends on facebook we always followed each other

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um george actually used to post pictures of my

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pigs and follow my uh rescue pig Facebook account

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and like I scrolled through his profile and saw

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he still has a photo shared on his page of my

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piggies and yeah totally unknowing that we would

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be together one day or anything like that yeah

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I would have never ever thought this but um yeah

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I came out here November of it so sorry Tink's

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is really naughty um but yeah I came out to visit

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in November of 2022 and We basically just fell

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in love as soon as we met and we were planning

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to like, maybe I'd move in July of the following

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year, but we wanted to be together. So I moved

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in January. So like two months after we met,

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but we had known each other for so long already.

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And yeah, it just felt right. Amazing. And let

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me add the fact that you've met virtually at

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first is very on brand for you, George. Yeah,

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I'm not a real -life person. I live through a

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screen as everyone knows, you know. Okay, what

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about you Akiva? You're also in a happy marriage.

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Your wife could not make it today. How did you

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meet your wife? So the story is very long, a

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bit complicated, not as simple as time and soul.

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But it would take a whole podcast probably just

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to tell the story. We used to tell our story

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together to student groups that we worked with

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many years ago. It took about an hour and a half

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to tell the whole story. It's a fun story to

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tell. It's got ups and downs and all arounds,

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lots of drama, lots of different things. But

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very long story, very short. We met in 2003.

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when it was through a Jewish environmental education

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center that we had both worked at. I had worked

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at it the season before. She worked at it the

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current season. I came back to visit some friends

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who were still there. We checked each other out,

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but I thought she was kind of already in a relationship.

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So I didn't approach her or anything, but the

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energy was already building. And then we reconnected

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in a different space some months later. Whenever

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the energy was there, we worked on a summer program

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together. connected there, and that's when we

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started to officially date. Maybe some of this

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will come out later. I'm not sure. So I don't

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know how much I should share right now, but I

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had been looking for for someone for a few years

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before that actively looking. I was like ready

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to date, ready to find my my my wife. I'm not

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sure again how much I should say right now. Are

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we saving that more of those details for later?

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Should I share a couple more details now? I mean,

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I won't ask again about. OK, so then I'll just

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say this basically again, very long story, very

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short. I didn't grow up religious, like Jewish

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religious. I was Jewish, but I didn't grow up

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religious. And I became religious after college

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and 22 years old as a result of a whole spiritual

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search. I didn't think I was going to find my

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spiritual meaning in my own tradition, but I

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did. Anyway, I was in the religious world. And

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in the Jewish religious world, you do things

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that very kind of specifically in terms of dating

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and finding your partner. I mean, it could happen

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in any way, but a lot of people kind of go through,

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whoa, what's that? a lot of people could go through

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or do go through like matchmakers. And so I met

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with a matchmaker and when I told them like I'm

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vegan, I'm an environmentalist, I'm into nature,

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like hiking, he's like, sorry, I can't help you.

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You know, I don't know anyone like you and religious,

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like forget it. I'm sorry if you don't hear that.

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Someone's like calling me to a different thingy.

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Anyway. basically, I was set on my own and eventually

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met my wife in other ways, more fitting ways.

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And that's how we eventually got married. Yeah,

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amazing how this went full circle and you became

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the matchmaker at some point. Okay, so I think

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this is a this question was a great segue for

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my next question, which is, you know, chemistry

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versus shared values. How important is it to

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have shared values and to meet a vegan. We hear

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all sorts of horror stories of vegans being with

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non -vegans and having to go through the struggle

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of it. At the same time, we hear stories about

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vegans dating non -vegans with the secret plan

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of converting their significant other to veganism.

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Tom and Saul This was more of a chemistry story.

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You did not know that you would share values.

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And the rest of the people on the call, it was

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truly a value focused thing. You knew even before

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meeting that you shared the same outlook on the

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world. So let's start with you, maybe Tom and

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Saul. Yeah, when I met Tom, I wasn't vegan at

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all, even though I loved animals and I had always

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felt very passionate about them. I was very young

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and I hadn't considered being vegan. But then

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Tom introduced the idea to me and I watched a

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video on Facebook that a friend shared of animal

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abuse and animal agriculture and all of this.

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that changed me so I went vegan overnight but

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I was very grateful that Tom wanted to meet me

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even though he knew that I wasn't vegan and that

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my family comes from well we are Argentinian

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Argentinian so we used to eat barbecues every

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weekend you know and he wasn't scared about that

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he he just wanted to meet me I don't know he

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he felt inspired to to see who I was and I'm

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grateful that I had the opportunity to change

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my mind and I never felt that he had a plan to

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convert me or change me in any way. It was natural

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because I saw that these were values that resonated

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with me and that now I had the opportunity to

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change my behavior and do something that felt

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good. Yeah, it helped that I thought she was

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smoking hot. And so it didn't necessarily matter

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if she was vegan or not. But, you know, my philosophy

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is kind of that I think everybody is vegan by

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default. Some people just they get confused along

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the way. Like most children will say, you know,

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of course, we should not be torturing animals

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and raising them in darkness. And it's just the

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world interferes and turns people against their

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values. So I think most people do share vegan

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values. It's just a matter of giving them the

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chance to remember them and be reminded of them.

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But, you know, at that time in my life, I was

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in a very receptive phase of just wanting to

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say sort of yes to every opportunity. And so

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I met this this non vegan who I really connected

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with. If it were today, I would probably think

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of just. you know, skipping the hassle and going

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through maybe a vegan dating website or going

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to vegan events, you know, trying to just take

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a bit of a shortcut. But I do think it's great

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to be open to dating non -vegans because that's

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ultimately how we can, you know, proliferate

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our values and philosophy and spread more. That's

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You know, the key to some very successful religions

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is conversion, right? And so you can't convert

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anybody if you are only meeting others who already

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agree with you. Interesting. So you would recommend

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people to open themselves to dating life with

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non -vegans? I don't know that I could. If there

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was a reality where Tom wasn't here and I had

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been vegan for many years, I don't know that

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I could because that's very fundamental in my

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life now. Well, it's like there's non vegans

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and then there's maybe like soon to be vegans.

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So it's important to know the difference. You

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might meet somebody who seems like a non vegan,

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but they're actually a soon to be vegan and they're

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just waiting for you to come along. Interesting.

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Rachel, George. Yeah, I mean personally I I Don't

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think it can work because of a fundamental difference

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in values if I was to Be in a relationship with

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a non vegan And I guess it's tried and tested

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from my experience as well because actually when

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I went vegan I was actually in a relationship

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with a non vegan and it didn't work and we ended

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up breaking up because Like, I'm an animal rights

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activist and I'm with someone who's paying for

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what's happened to animals. It just can't work.

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But I do agree with Tom, though, that dating

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non -vegans is a great way. It's a great way

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to build bridges and to actually open that up.

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But it would have to be under the condition for

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me that the person was actually going to go vegan,

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right? But luckily, both me and Rachel were vegan

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and both very much involved in the vegan community

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when when we met, so it just works right off

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the bat. We didn't need to go through all that

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stuff about who, you know, who you can't put

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animal products in the fridge and all this kind

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of, there's so many complications that arise

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from this kind of stuff if you're with a non

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-vegan, so yeah. And yeah, that's how my last

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relationship was as well. However, the guy who

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I was with did tell me. he was going vegan for

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me and um yeah we like rescued pigs together

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and things like that and then I'd like look at

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our door dash orders and I started seeing that

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he was ordering animal products and um it was

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all a facade so for me after that I never wanted

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to be with somebody unless I already knew they

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were like a well -established animal rights activist

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like not even just plant -based I was like very

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set on the fact that like their ethics have to

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be the same as mine. So do you believe that the

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tactic of partnering with non -vegans as a way,

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like Tom said, as a way to spread veganism is

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a bad one? Um, in my experience, yes, and I do

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know a lot of like vegan girls who have been

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with men who, um, they've like gone vegan. and

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getting them to convert. George said it seems

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like it's easier for girls to convert men to

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veganism, but that hasn't been the case with

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me whatsoever, and a lot of people have known.

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So I think it's, like Tom said, if it's somebody

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who seems like they're pre -vegan, then yeah,

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I guess it's great to make more vegans, but I

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don't think that that necessarily always happens

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with how indoctrinated people are so yeah it's

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weird because i think women are better able to

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um convince men to go vegan for a relationship

00:15:33.669 --> 00:15:38.649
but i think men are more likely than women to

00:15:38.649 --> 00:15:41.909
flake on the to to fake the whole veganism thing

00:15:42.139 --> 00:15:45.659
to get into a relationship with a woman yeah

00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.580
which is like what happened with my last relationship

00:15:48.580 --> 00:15:52.659
before george like you do see so many just like

00:15:52.659 --> 00:15:55.179
creepy guys in the vegan movement and you just

00:15:55.179 --> 00:15:57.659
think like dude you're not in this for the animals

00:15:57.659 --> 00:16:00.620
you're in this because the movement's made up

00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:04.080
of 75 women there are unfortunately those kind

00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:08.299
of guys in the movement so akiva let me ask you

00:16:08.299 --> 00:16:12.220
this i i kind of understand that the The feeling

00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:15.559
of that matchmaker you you mentioned, you know,

00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.000
it's impossible You know someone who's Jewish

00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.399
who cares about the environment who's also vegetarian

00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:24.620
vegan? If you restrain yourself to looking only

00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:31.100
for vegans don't you have to Prepare for a long

00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:35.340
single life Before meeting someone the good question.

00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:38.990
I mean, I think I became ready and interested

00:16:38.990 --> 00:16:41.870
in meeting someone with marriage in mind when

00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:44.690
I was 23 years old. And I got married when I

00:16:44.690 --> 00:16:50.210
was 27. I met my wife when I was 26. So yeah,

00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:53.450
people knew me. They liked me, thank God, but

00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:56.190
they didn't know anyone for me. And it was interesting,

00:16:56.250 --> 00:16:57.830
right around the time that I met my wife, all

00:16:57.830 --> 00:17:00.110
these people had all these ideas all of a sudden

00:17:00.110 --> 00:17:03.169
out of nowhere, and none of them were vegetarian

00:17:03.169 --> 00:17:06.130
and vegan. For me, back then, I'll be honest

00:17:06.130 --> 00:17:08.789
with you, I'm a bit of the odd person out here,

00:17:08.789 --> 00:17:11.289
because my wife is not vegan. She is vegetarian.

00:17:11.750 --> 00:17:14.450
She's been vegetarian since she was a kid. She

00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:16.210
tried out veganism here and there, and even though

00:17:16.210 --> 00:17:17.910
our first year of marriage, she went fully vegan,

00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:21.089
and then she went back. So just want to put that

00:17:21.089 --> 00:17:23.730
out in the open. I remember the first time that

00:17:23.730 --> 00:17:25.630
dairy went into her oven, I felt like something

00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:27.269
non -kosher was going into her oven. It was like

00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:29.210
a serious moment for me, really, I'll be honest

00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:31.390
with you. But thank God we've worked it out.

00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:34.640
We've been married for 21 years. You know, but

00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.680
even from the beginning and and I say this I

00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:38.640
think it's an important point to say because

00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.740
back then especially It's kind of like what like

00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:43.279
I think George was saying maybe Tom. I think

00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:45.819
Tom you said this Today it's different you know

00:17:45.819 --> 00:17:48.200
today there are more vegans out there back then

00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:50.980
to find like you know you know you said before

00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:53.980
like she's jewish she's religious she's like

00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:56.900
into like the environment nature hiking and she's

00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.240
vegan like literally i didn't meet anyone like

00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.279
that when i met my wife and she was vegetarian

00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.619
i was like celebrating like crazy like seriously

00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:07.019
right and she you know we had the whole like

00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:09.980
healthy natural lifestyle together you know like

00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:11.559
you know our first dates were like out there

00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:13.420
in nature hiking and going swimming in lakes

00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:15.470
and all that I was like, you know, it was so

00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:20.750
many connections. But yeah, but it is the thing.

00:18:20.769 --> 00:18:23.089
I understand the importance. And today, like

00:18:23.089 --> 00:18:26.730
in my matchmaking work, it's a big thing. People

00:18:26.730 --> 00:18:28.950
bring it up a lot. They ask me about it a lot.

00:18:29.210 --> 00:18:30.869
And there's so many different responses, and

00:18:30.869 --> 00:18:33.730
there's so many different approaches. I'd literally

00:18:33.730 --> 00:18:35.710
just matched. We'll see where they go. They just

00:18:35.710 --> 00:18:38.150
connected literally this week. But I just matched

00:18:38.150 --> 00:18:42.009
a woman who I came across in my work who's actually

00:18:42.809 --> 00:18:45.710
um was just dating someone who was amazing she

00:18:45.710 --> 00:18:48.730
said she's like hardcore vegan he's like hardcore

00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.009
not and she's like i can't i just can't you know

00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:54.250
and even though she's got like you know so many

00:18:54.250 --> 00:18:56.369
other things in him that she wants so i just

00:18:56.369 --> 00:18:59.109
introduced her to like this amazing guy who is

00:18:59.109 --> 00:19:02.349
hardcore vegan also we'll see where it goes there

00:19:02.349 --> 00:19:05.170
are people listening who are in a relationship

00:19:05.170 --> 00:19:09.150
with a non -vegan uh who whose values are not

00:19:09.150 --> 00:19:12.609
shared by their partner What kind of advice would

00:19:12.609 --> 00:19:16.730
you have for those people? And maybe let's start

00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:21.829
with Tom and Saul. Yeah, I mean, I think throughout

00:19:21.829 --> 00:19:25.470
history and every culture in every country, there's

00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:29.130
a lot to be gained from mixing sort of different

00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:31.650
groups of people together. Like think of all

00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:35.930
the great music that's come from uh you know

00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:38.970
blues music mixing with jazz mixing with electric

00:19:38.970 --> 00:19:41.630
guitars i always relate everything to music you

00:19:41.630 --> 00:19:46.390
know but um or it used to be that uh interracial

00:19:46.390 --> 00:19:48.789
marriages were not a thing and it would have

00:19:48.789 --> 00:19:51.390
been seen as like abominable and then so much

00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:54.509
has been gained from opening that door or in

00:19:54.509 --> 00:19:56.309
the united states we have the political parties

00:19:56.309 --> 00:19:59.450
democrats and republicans can a democrat and

00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:01.470
a republican get married together even though

00:20:01.470 --> 00:20:04.460
they don't have the same values Of course, we

00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:07.880
see that all the time. So, you know, there's

00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.759
different, I think, layers of values. It's a

00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.519
shame if people can't come together on the animal

00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.960
rights issue. But it doesn't mean that they can't

00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:20.680
relate on another value of how are we going to

00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.599
care for our children? How are we going to take

00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.059
care of our home, relate to our friends and neighbors?

00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:29.980
And then, you know, ultimately, I think the important

00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:33.220
thing is that people Remain vegan themselves,

00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:35.819
you know, even if your partner is not vegan,

00:20:36.099 --> 00:20:39.059
but you go and have children that's great that

00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:42.039
you can then pass on some of your values to your

00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:44.180
children and your children share those with their

00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:50.160
friends and I mean Yeah, I don't know. It's complicated

00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.559
because these days I would probably not imagine

00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.460
Being with somebody who ate meat. I think I could

00:20:56.460 --> 00:21:00.480
imagine being with a vegetarian but There's just

00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.119
so many Levels that we can relate to people on

00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.799
I think the vegan identity is is just one part

00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.500
of our identity So we can connect to partners

00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:12.099
on many different levels also Yeah, I'm not even

00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:13.880
sure what your question was. I just kind of started

00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:18.759
talking Advice for the people struggling with

00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:23.019
the non vegan partner Yeah, I mean, um... Keep

00:21:23.019 --> 00:21:25.700
being vegan. Yeah, there's different, yeah, keep

00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:27.559
being vegan yourself, you know, your partner

00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.259
doesn't change you. But then also think of just

00:21:30.259 --> 00:21:32.220
all the different layers we have, like we are

00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:35.960
vegans, yes, but there's other layers to our

00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:38.880
personalities, our identities, you know, I'm

00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.359
a musician, I like, you know, these kinds of

00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.299
films, this kind of food, I like hiking, I love

00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:48.599
my dogs, dancing, you know, you can find other

00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.890
ways to connect with people. So it's very unlikely

00:21:52.890 --> 00:21:54.890
that anybody is going to meet somebody who's

00:21:54.890 --> 00:21:58.430
an exact clone. of themselves. And if you did

00:21:58.430 --> 00:22:00.470
meet somebody who was an exact clone of yourself,

00:22:00.950 --> 00:22:03.430
it would probably be a very boring relationship.

00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:06.329
So really the differences between people, I guess

00:22:06.329 --> 00:22:08.349
that's the takeaway message, is the differences

00:22:08.349 --> 00:22:11.430
are where the interesting friction comes from

00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:14.950
that allows for both partners to grow. So I think

00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:18.569
we should see those differences as a good thing

00:22:18.569 --> 00:22:20.730
as long as they aren't too big. You know, for

00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:23.319
some folks, maybe being with somebody who's not

00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.319
a vegan, that's too big of a difference. Whereas

00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:27.220
for others, it might be something that can be

00:22:27.220 --> 00:22:31.000
a source of some useful and interesting tension.

00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:36.019
So I get, you know, being positive, basically.

00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:42.500
Akiva, you accepted a compromise. Your wife did

00:22:42.500 --> 00:22:47.299
not go vegan. She went vegetarian. Did you feel,

00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:51.400
you know, tempted to go You know further and

00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:54.480
ask her, you know, please, you know try being

00:22:54.480 --> 00:23:00.099
vegan or did you accept that? Consent this Compromise

00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:05.720
easily it's interesting because back then It

00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:07.799
might be funny to hear this I don't know but

00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:09.480
like back then the difference between vegan and

00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.700
vegetarian was not nearly as stark as it is today

00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:14.559
It's almost like two different movements two

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.519
different lifestyles today back then vegan vegetarians.

00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.049
We were like all good buddies and best friends

00:23:20.049 --> 00:23:21.950
you know we're like on the same page on the same

00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:25.230
everything um you know against the horrors of

00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:27.910
the uh of the animal agriculture industry i went

00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:31.289
vegan 30 years ago and i feel like in the last

00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:34.759
10 years or so it's been Very big split which

00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:36.599
I'll be honest with you. I think is is unfortunate

00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:38.779
I think it hurts the movement, but that's a separate

00:23:38.779 --> 00:23:41.920
conversation for for a separate time I feel like

00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.160
a lot of vegans are very condescending to vegetarians

00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.380
when they too are doing so much good in the world

00:23:48.380 --> 00:23:51.799
Maybe not as much as vegans, but still way better

00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:54.059
than most people in the world again a separate

00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:57.680
conversation I am like hardcore vegan, and I

00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.599
wish everyone was vegan, and I wish my wife was

00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:01.220
vegan, I'll be honest with you. And she knows

00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:04.440
that, like full on. But when I met her 22 years

00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.359
ago, again, it was like, we're like in the same

00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:09.200
camp. We're like on the same team. Like, this

00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.140
is great, you know? And again, like I said, she

00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:13.880
even went vegan at the beginning of her marriage.

00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.559
She was vegetarian longer than I was. She was

00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.859
vegetarian since she was 10. I met her when she

00:24:18.859 --> 00:24:23.019
was 24, you know? So it was very different. Today

00:24:23.019 --> 00:24:27.079
feels different than it did back then. Um, and

00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:29.059
look, you know, kind of go back to your question,

00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:30.640
like, you know, what advice would I give someone

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.240
who's in a relationship with a non -vegan? Well,

00:24:32.299 --> 00:24:34.200
first of all, you chose that relationship. You

00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:35.960
didn't have to be that relationship. So first,

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.019
let's just start with that. You know, if you,

00:24:38.019 --> 00:24:39.799
if you're really against being with a non -vegan,

00:24:39.859 --> 00:24:41.940
then what are you doing? Let's, let's, you know,

00:24:42.099 --> 00:24:44.559
take a look at your, at your decisions. And if

00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:46.400
you are in a relationship with a non -vegan,

00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:48.640
so clearly you're okay with that. I don't think

00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:50.900
anyone should ever go into a relationship trying

00:24:50.900 --> 00:24:53.599
to force anybody or expecting that anybody will

00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.859
change anything about them. anything forget veganism

00:24:56.859 --> 00:24:58.839
or anything else if you think they're going to

00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:00.980
start liking your music where they're going to

00:25:00.980 --> 00:25:02.819
start wanting to hike when they never hike today

00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:04.980
in their life where they're going to you know

00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:07.819
you know i don't know what you know like it's

00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:10.319
not going to happen it might happen but you can't

00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:12.359
expect it to happen if you do it's probably not

00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.420
going to last very long um so if somebody's dating

00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.910
a non -vegan or if a vegan is dating a vegetarian,

00:25:19.230 --> 00:25:22.130
clearly you're okay with that, right? So on some

00:25:22.130 --> 00:25:24.269
level, I don't see a problem. If you're not okay

00:25:24.269 --> 00:25:27.190
with that, but you like the person so much, and

00:25:27.190 --> 00:25:28.829
I'm just like holding out for them to be vegan,

00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:30.809
or I know I'm gonna say the right thing, or show

00:25:30.809 --> 00:25:33.069
them the right documentary to become vegan, it

00:25:33.069 --> 00:25:35.230
might happen, it might happen, but let's be honest,

00:25:35.309 --> 00:25:39.549
it might not. And so I just say, I think in general,

00:25:39.670 --> 00:25:42.410
the most important thing is, with any value,

00:25:42.630 --> 00:25:44.910
whether it's veganism or something else, to know

00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:47.009
what you're flexible about and what you're not.

00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:51.150
In the matchmaking world, we call it fixed. and

00:25:51.150 --> 00:25:54.150
flex, and fix and flex, basically. Like, what

00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:56.109
are you fixed about? Like, I can't change this,

00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:58.309
and if you try to change this about me, we can't

00:25:58.309 --> 00:26:00.710
be together. But there are things that I love

00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:02.690
and I'm passionate about, but I'm flexible about

00:26:02.690 --> 00:26:04.450
them. So you have to know where you're, which

00:26:04.450 --> 00:26:07.250
value goes into which category, right? For me,

00:26:07.349 --> 00:26:10.349
back then, like, again, I literally never met

00:26:10.349 --> 00:26:13.069
a Jewish religious vegan before. So yeah, like

00:26:13.069 --> 00:26:14.970
you said before, like, I might have been, like,

00:26:15.089 --> 00:26:17.509
single forever. So I knew I needed to be flexible

00:26:17.509 --> 00:26:20.000
about that. It wasn't... It wasn't much of a

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.619
dilemma for me. I knew I needed to be. I knew

00:26:22.619 --> 00:26:24.920
also that I couldn't be with a meat eater. I

00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.180
knew that the woman had to at least be a vegetarian.

00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:30.200
There was no way I was gonna be in a house that

00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.220
served meat. That was the end of anything. I

00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:35.160
went out with girls just because whatever, you

00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:38.160
know, people set me up and I knew it wasn't gonna

00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:39.700
happen. They were like meat eaters. They weren't

00:26:39.700 --> 00:26:41.400
into it. They were making fun of me. I went on

00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:43.119
one day with a girl like made fun of me basically

00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.099
for being vegan. I'm like, okay, can we get the

00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:47.519
bill? I gotta go, you know? Like, it's not going

00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:51.200
to happen. So, yeah, just being very clear, having

00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:55.140
that clarity is super important. Going back to

00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:58.319
those vegans struggling with a non -vegan partner,

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:02.720
can they learn something from your two failures,

00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:09.380
George and Rachel? So, in my case, I wasn't vegan

00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:14.299
when I started going out with that girl. I actually

00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:18.859
became vegan in 2013 after I saw Gary Yourofsky's

00:27:18.859 --> 00:27:22.819
speech in 2012 and I tried showing her the speech,

00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:27.519
I tried showing her the stuff that changed me

00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.700
and it was disappointing because I considered

00:27:30.700 --> 00:27:33.740
her to be a very very compassionate person and

00:27:33.740 --> 00:27:36.980
I think she was and that's why she wouldn't watch

00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:40.299
the footage of the animals being slaughtered.

00:27:41.299 --> 00:27:43.880
And there was just a fundamental breakdown in

00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:46.299
ethics, in values, in differences. We discussed

00:27:46.299 --> 00:27:49.880
our future together. It just wasn't going to

00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:54.759
work. Because I mean, when I went vegan, it wasn't

00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.380
just that I went plant based. I was like an animal

00:27:57.380 --> 00:28:01.140
rights activist. Like I was on social media screaming

00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:03.059
this from the rooftops about what's happening

00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:05.000
to animals. I was wanting to get involved in

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.500
like street outreach and stuff like that. But

00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:11.549
look, here's the complicated thing. I can't give

00:28:11.549 --> 00:28:13.849
any advice to someone who's in a relationship

00:28:13.849 --> 00:28:16.589
with a non -vegan and they're not happy with

00:28:16.589 --> 00:28:19.630
that. Kind of like Akiva said, if you're in a

00:28:19.630 --> 00:28:23.769
relationship with someone you ought to be happy

00:28:23.769 --> 00:28:27.569
going into that relationship. The problem becomes

00:28:27.569 --> 00:28:29.990
when you're in a relationship with someone because

00:28:29.990 --> 00:28:32.809
you believe you have the same values and then

00:28:32.809 --> 00:28:35.569
one of you changes your values part way through

00:28:35.569 --> 00:28:37.970
that relationship and then there's often just

00:28:37.970 --> 00:28:41.279
the fundamental breakdown and My advice to anyone

00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:43.400
who's experiencing this, my only advice is just

00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.339
try to get them to see what you saw. And if it

00:28:46.339 --> 00:28:48.480
doesn't work, I can't advise anything because

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:50.000
relationships are complicated. Some people have

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.220
kids, some people are in marriages and have a

00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:57.740
house together. So I can't go around being like,

00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:01.160
you must do this, you must dump this person or

00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:03.420
you must do that. All I can say is get them to

00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.000
sit down, watch Dominion or Gary Yourofsky's

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.460
speech, whatever it is, and that's as far as

00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:10.470
I can say. Yeah, and if it hurts you too bad,

00:29:10.829 --> 00:29:16.589
you just gotta let them go. If that upsets you

00:29:16.589 --> 00:29:19.829
every single day that they aren't seeing things

00:29:19.829 --> 00:29:22.490
for what they are, seeing how horrible these

00:29:22.490 --> 00:29:26.710
industries are, my advice is yeah, just figure

00:29:26.710 --> 00:29:31.970
out a way to plan your out. If it makes your

00:29:31.970 --> 00:29:34.329
life more complicated, like if you have kids

00:29:34.329 --> 00:29:39.240
or a house, your happiness is also very important

00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:43.720
so I think it might be better to divorce them

00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:47.339
and find somebody more like you, I don't know.

00:29:48.019 --> 00:29:50.359
In those situations though it's so complicated

00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:54.880
that Sometimes you just can't give advice. It's

00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.460
hard when someone has kids or something, it's

00:29:57.460 --> 00:30:00.019
too hard to say what to do. Yeah, and that's

00:30:00.019 --> 00:30:02.980
really hard too because I do know a lot of divorced

00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:07.420
vegans whose kids will go over to their dad or

00:30:07.420 --> 00:30:11.960
mom's house and eat non -vegan food, and then

00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:14.460
there's a whole bunch of drama there. So I guess

00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.460
just don't have kids with somebody unless you

00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:19.259
know that you're going to be able to handle that.

00:30:20.300 --> 00:30:23.259
Yeah, it's all yeah, it's there's all a lot of

00:30:23.259 --> 00:30:25.279
complications that can come up though. We're

00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:29.960
not we're not relationship gurus ultimately No,

00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:34.839
you're being helpful Yeah, it is a emotional

00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:39.140
open -heart surgery You mentioned a few times

00:30:39.140 --> 00:30:43.619
that you are an activist George and you're also

00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.240
an activist Rachel. Do you feel like you two

00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:52.079
being vegan? just Made you even more vegan like

00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.819
even more convinced and even more of an activist

00:30:56.819 --> 00:31:02.740
and made you Radical even more radical, but the

00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:06.619
good kind of radical I was already super active

00:31:06.619 --> 00:31:09.720
and like what people call radical before I really

00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:13.519
ever spoke properly to Rachel so It wasn't any

00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.460
coincidence of us being together. It was more

00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:19.710
that we connected with each other because we

00:31:19.710 --> 00:31:21.630
were kind of involved in that movement, if that

00:31:21.630 --> 00:31:26.269
makes sense. But I had not done street outreach,

00:31:26.410 --> 00:31:29.009
maybe other than like flyering and stickering

00:31:29.009 --> 00:31:33.009
like at the grocery store. Until I met George,

00:31:33.009 --> 00:31:36.250
I always felt my place in like the activism scene

00:31:36.250 --> 00:31:40.890
was rescue, rehabilitation, volunteering at sanctuaries,

00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:44.329
things like that, online activism, but George

00:31:44.329 --> 00:31:49.170
has definitely given me, like, more inspiration

00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:53.329
to use my voice and also do some pretty extreme

00:31:53.329 --> 00:31:55.910
demos that I never thought I would have done

00:31:55.910 --> 00:31:58.910
before, so. But Rachel really calls them extreme

00:31:58.910 --> 00:32:01.069
because she doesn't like talking to people. That's

00:32:01.069 --> 00:32:02.670
what she means by extreme. They're not extreme

00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:07.029
demos at all. Like, just, like, we did a milked

00:32:07.029 --> 00:32:10.369
woman art installation and before I met George

00:32:10.369 --> 00:32:13.369
I would never have seen myself like... practically

00:32:13.369 --> 00:32:17.990
naked on the streets with um like milkers taped

00:32:17.990 --> 00:32:22.230
to my chest and a sign that says dairy isn't

00:32:22.230 --> 00:32:26.569
humane but um yeah he's definitely given me like

00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:32.049
the confidence to speak my truth so i think it

00:32:32.049 --> 00:32:36.890
is a yes okay tom and soul same question for

00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:42.740
you yes uh could you repeat that question So

00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:47.440
do you feel like being partnered with a vegan

00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:52.440
made you even more radical in your outlook and

00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:55.119
made you even more of an activist in this scene?

00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:01.119
Yeah. You know, we have done many street outreach

00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:04.079
events together. And when you're with somebody

00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.299
else who does share those deep values with you,

00:33:06.619 --> 00:33:08.480
then, you know, doing street outreach can be

00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.599
a dating activity. It's a couple activity. And

00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:14.920
that might even be some potential advice for

00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:19.000
somebody who's with a non vegan or non vegetarian

00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.269
is to invite them to do outreach with you. as

00:33:22.269 --> 00:33:24.230
a bonding activity. It's like, OK, we're sharing

00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:27.069
a life together. We might not be eating the same

00:33:27.069 --> 00:33:29.930
things, but let's go do some outreach together

00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:32.369
so you can see what's important to me. And I

00:33:32.369 --> 00:33:37.450
think anybody who spends a few hours seeing the

00:33:37.450 --> 00:33:40.470
footage that vegans show at outreach events and

00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:42.950
receiving that material, it will definitely make

00:33:42.950 --> 00:33:48.019
them think very deeply. About those issues, but

00:33:48.019 --> 00:33:50.700
you know when I first met soul and soul is from

00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:54.819
an Argentinian family and I had been vegan for

00:33:54.819 --> 00:33:58.859
already Almost ten years and I should say it

00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:02.380
was it was a girl in high school who turned me

00:34:02.380 --> 00:34:05.480
vegan I was a pre vegan and there was a girl

00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:08.860
I really liked and she basically said Tom we're

00:34:08.860 --> 00:34:11.679
going vegan and showed me one video and that

00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:14.139
was all it took. It's like, OK, I like you. I

00:34:14.139 --> 00:34:17.400
resonate with this video. I'm vegan now. So and

00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:19.119
we didn't even date or anything. I just had a

00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:23.320
crush on her. But at the point when I met soul

00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:26.260
and I was backpacking in South America and I

00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:28.059
was just sort of saying yes to everything, I

00:34:28.059 --> 00:34:31.679
was reevaluating who I was and I actually became

00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.400
flexible with my my my diet while I was traveling.

00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:39.809
And I even I tried one hamburger. And it was

00:34:39.809 --> 00:34:42.110
disgusting. So after that, I said, OK, I'll be

00:34:42.110 --> 00:34:46.389
vegetarian for this trip. I won't eat meat. And

00:34:46.389 --> 00:34:48.650
when I met Sol and she was from a heavily meat

00:34:48.650 --> 00:34:50.570
eating family and I lived with her family for

00:34:50.570 --> 00:34:55.210
a while and she was not vegan. But then when

00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:58.030
we when she started tuning into the vegan values

00:34:58.030 --> 00:35:00.289
and said she wanted to become vegan, it sort

00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:03.000
of made me like. five times more vegan than I

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:05.579
was previously, because now I had somebody who

00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:08.019
was reinforcing those values in me, confirming

00:35:08.019 --> 00:35:10.280
that this was something important to do. And

00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.679
it was a part of myself that I didn't need to

00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:18.079
try to ignore. And so since then, since teaming

00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:20.219
up with a vegan partner, for me personally, I

00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.539
am so much more of a vegan than I ever was. And

00:35:22.539 --> 00:35:26.780
it's like, I would never again question or consider

00:35:26.780 --> 00:35:29.389
being receptive to having a hamburger on the

00:35:29.389 --> 00:35:31.269
streets of Columbia, like that would never cross

00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:34.489
my mind today because now my veganism is so much

00:35:34.489 --> 00:35:37.010
more deeply entrenched. It's in the marrow of

00:35:37.010 --> 00:35:39.769
my bones. So I do think definitely getting a

00:35:39.769 --> 00:35:43.409
vegan partner. It's like, you know, when you're

00:35:43.409 --> 00:35:45.710
trying to do any activity or start any habit,

00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:48.349
if you're trying to be a jujitsu master or whatever,

00:35:48.969 --> 00:35:51.559
you need somebody to keep you disciplined. It's

00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:52.960
going to be very hard to keep that discipline

00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:56.039
up just by yourself. It's very helpful to have

00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:58.199
somebody else who is reinforcing whatever it

00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.860
is that you're trying to achieve. And I wanted

00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:04.980
to add something about doing outreach. I'm like

00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:09.679
Rachel. Well, she said that she was shy to talk

00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:15.519
to people. I'm very shy. avoid conflict in my

00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.199
life as much as possible. Just talking about

00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.059
it makes me nervous. So I have done outreach,

00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.559
but it's been me holding a screen or holding

00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:30.900
a sign and having very short conversations with

00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:35.599
people. I haven't really broken through that

00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:41.110
barrier yet, but I'm... much better at composing

00:36:41.110 --> 00:36:45.409
music that talks about animal rights and in a

00:36:45.409 --> 00:36:50.429
more well not a more passionate way but more

00:36:50.429 --> 00:36:54.849
soft like I think it talks to your to your heart

00:36:54.849 --> 00:36:58.110
in a different way or through art you know like

00:36:58.110 --> 00:37:00.769
this this book Rainer the house wolf that Tom

00:37:00.769 --> 00:37:03.630
and I wrote and we're gonna publish very soon

00:37:03.630 --> 00:37:09.110
it's not directly like a vegan book in your face,

00:37:09.130 --> 00:37:11.750
but it has a vegan message that I think that

00:37:11.750 --> 00:37:14.449
people who are non -vegan will resonate and they

00:37:14.449 --> 00:37:17.730
will be introduced to the idea slowly and then

00:37:17.730 --> 00:37:20.630
get to meet these characters, get to meet Patrick,

00:37:20.809 --> 00:37:23.989
this pig who escaped the truck that was going

00:37:23.989 --> 00:37:31.329
to the slaughter house. So yeah, I think that...

00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:35.980
That's my way of doing it. And it helps me to

00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:39.840
also speak my truth in this way. And Tom is very

00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.340
supportive with that. He does his own art, of

00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:46.320
course, and music that is that way. So we both

00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:51.159
push each other to do it. Thank you. And I'm

00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:53.619
looking forward to getting a copy of that book.

00:37:54.980 --> 00:37:58.559
Akiva, that's interesting, you know, the intersection

00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:05.340
of activism and being just vegan. Do you feel

00:38:05.340 --> 00:38:10.679
like most vegan couples that you meet or that

00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:14.099
you have interacted with are interested in getting

00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:19.139
into activism in some way? I always think that

00:38:19.139 --> 00:38:24.079
we are forced upon being an activist and to the

00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:29.179
role of an activist. Is it a conversation that

00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:33.400
people have with you when looking for a partner?

00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:36.219
So it's interesting. First of all, I loved hearing

00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:38.780
the answers just now of everyone. Thank you,

00:38:38.780 --> 00:38:41.000
guys. It was a great question and great response.

00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:45.119
It's really interesting. I feel like in my life,

00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.739
I do know a couple like powerhouse couples who

00:38:48.739 --> 00:38:51.099
are both activists, both vegans, both activists,

00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:54.719
a couple here in Israel. Um, she's actually,

00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.159
she's a tall, tall, maybe somebody who knows

00:38:57.159 --> 00:39:00.760
about her. She actually got a position in the

00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:03.719
government, uh, to be like in charge of animal

00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.119
welfare, uh, issues in the country, which is

00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:07.880
unbelievable. Like an office that never existed

00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:11.800
before. Um, she's amazing. Her partner, uh, is

00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:14.059
amazing. And they, they're an activist couple.

00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.900
I know another great, um, Jewish half -Israeli

00:39:17.900 --> 00:39:21.019
couple in Germany. He has all these vegan restaurants

00:39:21.019 --> 00:39:23.840
near Rosenfeld, if anybody knows him. He's doing

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.860
incredible work. He's owned all these meat restaurants.

00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:28.679
He watched one of the documentaries. Actually,

00:39:28.699 --> 00:39:31.960
no, I think he heard a speech of Tal's, became

00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.059
vegan overnight, and then eventually changed

00:39:34.059 --> 00:39:36.239
all of his restaurants to vegan restaurants.

00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.519
He's very successful, and he's an incredible

00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:41.599
street activist together with his wife. Anyway,

00:39:41.739 --> 00:39:43.619
the reason I say that, they're a bit from, in

00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:47.900
my life, a bit more of the minority. I'll be

00:39:47.900 --> 00:39:51.360
honest with you, my main life is in the Jewish

00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.840
religious world, and unfortunately, there's not

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:56.380
that many vegans in the Jewish religious world.

00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.400
When I say religious, I mean Orthodox, if that

00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.039
makes more sense to people. That's where part

00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:03.980
of my work is, trying to bring that voice more

00:40:03.980 --> 00:40:06.059
into the Orthodox world and using traditional

00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:08.500
Jewish sources to show that veganism is very,

00:40:08.500 --> 00:40:11.260
very, not only accepted, but very, very supported

00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:14.360
by Jewish teachings and values in our modern

00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:17.659
day. So I feel like I don't personally see it

00:40:17.659 --> 00:40:21.579
in my life very much I will say just in terms

00:40:21.579 --> 00:40:23.519
of my own personal life, but my wife though,

00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:25.219
you know again, she's not vegan She's vegetarians

00:40:25.219 --> 00:40:28.340
very supportive of what I do when that was when

00:40:28.340 --> 00:40:30.500
we first got married a bit over 20 years ago

00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:33.619
My background is in education. I've been in education

00:40:33.619 --> 00:40:36.059
Jewish education for over 20 years almost 25

00:40:36.059 --> 00:40:38.699
years now Um, but it was really when I opened

00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:41.179
up vegan rabbi about four or five years ago that

00:40:41.179 --> 00:40:43.059
I really kind of stepped into that role again

00:40:43.059 --> 00:40:45.579
as an activist. I was super heavily involved

00:40:45.579 --> 00:40:47.340
with activism in college back in the day. That

00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:49.880
was like my life more than classes were. Um,

00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:51.760
and then like, you know, after that, you know,

00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:53.519
um, and eventually getting married and raising

00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.860
a family, education became my, my activism and

00:40:56.860 --> 00:40:58.960
then vegan, uh, vegan rabbi kind of combines

00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.280
all of that together and she's very supportive

00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.019
and it's, and it's really cool because we, we

00:41:03.019 --> 00:41:04.639
are still kind of like a couple in this, even

00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:06.340
though I'm vegan and she's vegetarian because

00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:08.460
If we have, you know, Shabbat is like a big time

00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:10.980
to like have big meals and invite people over.

00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:14.000
And I really feel like we're like the representatives

00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.800
of awesome vegan food. Cause when people come

00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:21.179
over, like our Shabbat meals are mostly sometimes

00:41:21.179 --> 00:41:24.679
only vegan, right? And people love it. You know,

00:41:24.739 --> 00:41:26.360
these non -vegans, non -vegetarians, they come

00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:28.440
over like, wow, like if this what the food was

00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.260
like, I could do that. I'd like, I can't tell

00:41:30.260 --> 00:41:32.260
you how many times I've heard that. So our table

00:41:32.260 --> 00:41:35.719
becomes a bit of like an activist tool. when

00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:37.900
we go out right because you might know like in

00:41:37.900 --> 00:41:39.719
the Jewish religious world like things are either

00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:41.980
meat or dairy you know because you can't mix

00:41:41.980 --> 00:41:44.559
the two so most people eat meat meals on Shabbat

00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:47.219
so when we go out like they can't have dairy

00:41:47.219 --> 00:41:49.199
there so tomorrow is eating tomorrow that's my

00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.599
wife's name she's eating the same food that I'm

00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:53.320
eating. It's all vegan. It's got no dairy in

00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:56.539
it and has no meat. And people often turn the

00:41:56.539 --> 00:41:59.739
conversation to how both of us eat and why. So

00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:01.739
she shares a lot of the same values. So we're

00:42:01.739 --> 00:42:04.539
not just like, I think you guys in this conversation

00:42:04.539 --> 00:42:07.239
are more like activist couples than we are, but

00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.920
she definitely supports what I do. And I have

00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:12.559
to say, it's very proud of it because she believes

00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.739
in it and is happy that so many people are responding

00:42:15.739 --> 00:42:21.119
to it. That's good. That's really good. I'm happy

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:23.320
to hear that that you have this dynamic going

00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:29.739
on Okay a question for you George and Rachel

00:42:29.739 --> 00:42:37.880
Advice for best places to find those Vegan, you

00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:41.280
know partners, I think that's one of the biggest

00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:44.159
question I always hear asked again and again,

00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.559
you know, where can I find that vegan partner?

00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:53.340
But there's plenty around I think It's harder

00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:55.460
for it was harder for Rachel because she's from

00:42:55.460 --> 00:42:58.239
the States and it's such a huge country and everyone's

00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:01.579
so spread out that I Think it is kind of harder

00:43:01.579 --> 00:43:06.539
there to find a vegan partner In the UK, it's

00:43:06.539 --> 00:43:10.420
extremely like we're an extremely dense densely

00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:14.179
populated country and it's a small island so

00:43:14.179 --> 00:43:18.000
for UK vegans, it's like look just join your

00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.599
local vegan facebook group or get active and

00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:22.460
there's there's plenty of people that you'll

00:43:22.460 --> 00:43:25.079
be able to meet in your local outreach group

00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:29.059
or whatever it is um but yeah with me with me

00:43:29.059 --> 00:43:31.380
and rachel it was obviously online that we got

00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:34.320
to know each other and i um one of my best friends

00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:39.440
also met her husband welsh man in um like the

00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:42.860
same free speech vegan groups and uh he moved

00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:46.760
to America and uh yeah so I would suggest anyone

00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:49.639
who's kind of in a more desolate area without

00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:53.559
many vegans to uh yeah join online communities

00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:58.659
and um yeah get yourself out there yeah and also

00:43:58.659 --> 00:44:02.500
um there's also plenty of like vegan dating events

00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:05.079
and stuff even there's vegan camp out is coming

00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.889
up in the UK the end of August, they do like

00:44:07.889 --> 00:44:10.949
a vegan speed dating event there. So everyone

00:44:10.949 --> 00:44:13.590
is welcome to fly over for that as well. So please

00:44:13.590 --> 00:44:15.570
get your tickets for that and come on over and

00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:18.170
we can all meet. And for anyone who's listening

00:44:18.170 --> 00:44:20.309
now who's single, there's a speed dating event

00:44:20.309 --> 00:44:23.429
now that will be happening there, I think. So

00:44:23.429 --> 00:44:25.590
another great way, go to things like festivals

00:44:25.590 --> 00:44:30.909
and that kind of stuff, because yeah. What about?

00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.059
activism events, I feel like those events are

00:44:35.059 --> 00:44:37.519
more serious, but there are often, you know,

00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:41.139
after parties, which can be a good, you know,

00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:46.340
setting for that kind of, you know, energy. Would

00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:50.519
that be a good event, a good, you know, place,

00:44:51.579 --> 00:44:56.340
moments to look for a partner? 100 % because

00:44:56.340 --> 00:44:59.599
not so firstly, I just want to separate You shouldn't

00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.059
be flirting and chatting with people during the

00:45:02.059 --> 00:45:03.880
activism event. We're there for the animals,

00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:08.179
right? It's a focus, yeah. But it's, yeah, getting

00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:11.300
act, being in those activism groups is a perfect

00:45:11.300 --> 00:45:14.179
way to find someone who has a fundamental matching

00:45:14.179 --> 00:45:18.059
beliefs with you because you're there. speaking

00:45:18.059 --> 00:45:21.559
with a fellow activist, you're meeting someone

00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:23.539
who's very passionate about the thing you're

00:45:23.539 --> 00:45:26.019
actually passionate about and all the social

00:45:26.019 --> 00:45:28.380
events and stuff with it can come after, you're

00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:30.679
going to be meeting with a group of people who

00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:34.619
are really aligned with your values and especially

00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:37.980
with how outreach groups work as well because

00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:40.380
the different animal rights organizations have

00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:42.619
different ways of doing things, different kind

00:45:42.619 --> 00:45:47.260
of values and you might find that you're more

00:45:47.260 --> 00:45:53.420
aligned with people who do activism with a certain

00:45:53.420 --> 00:45:55.519
animal rights group than you are others because

00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.659
there's so many different ways of advocacy and

00:45:58.659 --> 00:46:00.719
stuff in the vegan movement. So yeah, it's a

00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:04.820
great way to get to meet people. Tom and Saul,

00:46:05.300 --> 00:46:09.119
you are so far away from the city. You are in

00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.280
the countryside. you know, for someone looking

00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:18.179
for a partner must complicate things even further.

00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:23.059
Do you have any advice of, you know, how to go

00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:27.860
over that obstacle? Well, I mean, yeah, it would

00:46:27.860 --> 00:46:31.239
be difficult to find anyone vegan or not vegan,

00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.079
because we're so far away from everything. But,

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:39.269
I mean, if we Wanted to we could go to more events

00:46:39.269 --> 00:46:42.610
in in cities and stuff. We just enjoy being by

00:46:42.610 --> 00:46:45.650
ourselves in the forest Yeah, I mean where we

00:46:45.650 --> 00:46:49.250
are our closest town about 25 minutes away has

00:46:49.250 --> 00:46:52.110
1 ,000 people we do our grocery shopping in a

00:46:52.110 --> 00:46:56.090
town of 4 ,000 people about 45 minutes away and

00:46:56.090 --> 00:46:57.889
And so there's only a handful of people here,

00:46:57.889 --> 00:47:01.050
but we know six or seven vegans You know we know

00:47:01.050 --> 00:47:02.949
a surprising amount of vegans considering how

00:47:02.949 --> 00:47:06.949
sparsely populated this area is so even if you're

00:47:06.949 --> 00:47:09.809
in the middle of you know like we have a friend

00:47:09.809 --> 00:47:12.829
in kansas city where i grew up and she's organizing

00:47:12.829 --> 00:47:15.829
a vegan festival in rural kansas that's taking

00:47:15.829 --> 00:47:19.969
place in september of this year so there are

00:47:19.969 --> 00:47:23.309
always opportunities if you're trying to specifically

00:47:23.309 --> 00:47:25.969
find vegans but you know another thing i would

00:47:25.969 --> 00:47:30.619
consider is uh don't maybe consider don't Don't

00:47:30.619 --> 00:47:34.760
try to find a partner. Like, let it happen. Very

00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.539
often, I've found that when I'm specifically

00:47:37.539 --> 00:47:40.480
trying to accomplish something or do something,

00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:43.860
it doesn't happen. And then when I stop searching,

00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:48.360
that thing suddenly reveals itself. And I've

00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:49.920
heard other people say the same thing when it

00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.820
comes to looking for a partner. It's like, if

00:47:52.820 --> 00:47:55.119
you're trying to find this person, if you're

00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:57.179
going to all these vegan dating events because

00:47:57.179 --> 00:47:59.650
you're actively searching, That might work for

00:47:59.650 --> 00:48:03.309
a lot of people, but also going to a vegan festival

00:48:03.309 --> 00:48:06.190
or outreach and not looking for a partner, but

00:48:06.190 --> 00:48:08.710
just going there because it's something that

00:48:08.710 --> 00:48:11.469
you're passionate about. And then the partner

00:48:11.469 --> 00:48:15.550
could happen as a consequence of that. But I

00:48:15.550 --> 00:48:19.489
think we should maybe think about how directed

00:48:19.489 --> 00:48:21.650
and specifically we want our approach to be.

00:48:21.750 --> 00:48:25.809
Maybe it's more about receptivity than actively

00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:29.440
trying to snag a partner and Coerce them into

00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:31.599
being vegan by whispering to them in their dreams

00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:34.119
or whatever, you know, like, just be receptive

00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:36.639
and maybe what you're looking for will happen

00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:39.199
automatically, no matter where you are in the

00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:43.619
world. Akiva, I'm not sure you agree with this

00:48:43.619 --> 00:48:50.239
advice. Should people consider hiring a matchmaker?

00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:54.260
Because I feel like hiring a matchmaker is like...

00:48:54.190 --> 00:48:58.050
kind of a luxury. That's how I perceive it. And

00:48:58.050 --> 00:49:01.630
kind of the most efficient, like the atomic bomb.

00:49:01.969 --> 00:49:05.369
Like this is where you go to if, you know, you

00:49:05.369 --> 00:49:09.070
really want results. Am I right in my perception?

00:49:11.409 --> 00:49:13.949
Yes. And I don't want to say no, but I'll say

00:49:13.949 --> 00:49:17.570
this. Well, first of all, in the Jewish world,

00:49:18.130 --> 00:49:20.500
matchmaking was... First of all, it's a very

00:49:20.500 --> 00:49:22.360
traditional thing in the Jewish world that like

00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:23.760
you go to a matchmaker and they help you like

00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:25.639
find a partner, da -da -da, right? It was never

00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:29.119
for payment, at least not upfront. If they found

00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:31.639
you somebody, say give them a gift, a gift of

00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:33.539
your choice, you know, because that's like what

00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:35.480
you should do. But there's no payment upfront.

00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:37.420
In modern matchmaking, Jewish, non -Jewish, it

00:49:37.420 --> 00:49:39.000
doesn't matter. There is payment upfront, it's

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:41.699
the whole thing. But so, in terms of modern matchmaking,

00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:43.079
I definitely hear what you're saying in terms

00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:45.460
of it's like a luxury and it's not for everyone.

00:49:45.780 --> 00:49:50.500
And it's not for everyone, for sure. Having said

00:49:50.500 --> 00:49:55.380
that I do think it's a balance of being Proactive

00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:59.019
even very proactive and then totally coming into

00:49:59.019 --> 00:50:04.039
this place of like faith and belief and staying

00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.219
connected and You know, I'm really into the whole

00:50:08.219 --> 00:50:12.480
kind of spiritual side of dating and searching

00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.380
for your soulmate, your life partner. There's

00:50:15.380 --> 00:50:17.219
a lot of beautiful spiritual teachings that help

00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:22.280
people align the way. And one of them is just

00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:24.280
remembering like they're out there, like they

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:26.420
exist, they're real, they're living right now,

00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:29.119
they're doing things right now, you know. talk

00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:30.579
to them, talk to them in your head, like say

00:50:30.579 --> 00:50:32.179
hi to them every morning, like good morning,

00:50:32.219 --> 00:50:34.860
you know, and um, like really like it helped

00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:36.840
you to like, you know, really believe that this

00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.599
is possible because so many singles believe it's

00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:41.059
not possible. Um, but again, that's kind of a

00:50:41.059 --> 00:50:43.139
good, different kind of conversation, but I do,

00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:46.679
I do value the place of being proactive and it

00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:48.960
doesn't mean like being like obsessive or compulsive

00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:50.639
or like making it like you're a hundred percent

00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:52.800
thing in life, but it does mean like, you know,

00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:54.360
like what's that before, like putting yourself

00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.480
in good places where it's more likely you're

00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:58.769
going to find someone, meet someone with your

00:50:58.769 --> 00:51:02.630
values. Now, where I met my wife, I didn't go

00:51:02.630 --> 00:51:06.889
there to meet my wife. I was 24 years old, I

00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:10.429
think, at the time. I was ready and open to meet

00:51:10.429 --> 00:51:12.690
somebody, but I went there to get trained as

00:51:12.690 --> 00:51:16.409
a Jewish environmental educator. I wound up meeting

00:51:16.409 --> 00:51:19.110
my best friends and my wife, and out of that

00:51:19.110 --> 00:51:21.070
season and the next season, all of these couples

00:51:21.070 --> 00:51:23.869
came out who eventually got married. We just

00:51:23.869 --> 00:51:26.309
show that this is a great place for people to

00:51:26.309 --> 00:51:29.610
meet. Go there because you value this. You're

00:51:29.610 --> 00:51:31.050
a good chance you're going to find someone who

00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:33.929
also values this. And you're going to want to

00:51:33.929 --> 00:51:35.510
live with that person because you both value

00:51:35.510 --> 00:51:38.789
this thing together. So whether that's a job,

00:51:39.969 --> 00:51:42.929
or this was a three or four month gig that I

00:51:42.929 --> 00:51:45.610
did at this environmental center, or it's a lecture,

00:51:45.849 --> 00:51:47.969
or it's a retreat, or it's a weekend thing, or

00:51:47.969 --> 00:51:49.610
whatever it might be, or it's a rally, it's a

00:51:49.610 --> 00:51:52.090
protest, being part of an organization. Definitely.

00:51:52.190 --> 00:51:53.750
I think that's the best thing anybody can do

00:51:53.750 --> 00:51:55.750
is putting yourself in situations where like,

00:51:55.849 --> 00:51:57.210
yeah, there can be people who care about the

00:51:57.210 --> 00:51:59.710
things that you care about. And, um, and I'll

00:51:59.710 --> 00:52:01.989
just add one other thing to that is like, don't

00:52:01.989 --> 00:52:04.070
be shy to tell people, yeah, I'm single and I'm

00:52:04.070 --> 00:52:05.769
looking for somebody, you know, here's like my

00:52:05.769 --> 00:52:08.030
top three things. The more people know, the more

00:52:08.030 --> 00:52:10.250
people thinking about you and the more people

00:52:10.250 --> 00:52:12.869
I, I sometimes have like online singles events

00:52:12.869 --> 00:52:15.949
for Jewish vegans and vegetarians. And let's

00:52:15.949 --> 00:52:17.949
be honest, it is such a tiny niche. It's like

00:52:17.949 --> 00:52:20.389
ridiculous, right? If I cut it down into like,

00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:23.159
age group and Jewish denomination, I'll have

00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:25.320
like three people on the call, right? So I opened

00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.800
up to all ages, all backgrounds, all Jewish denominations,

00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:30.699
and then I'll have like a sizable group. And

00:52:30.699 --> 00:52:32.260
I tell them, even if you don't meet someone on

00:52:32.260 --> 00:52:35.840
this call, more people now know about you, right?

00:52:35.860 --> 00:52:37.500
And that's just how the world works. The more

00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:39.139
people that know that you're looking for someone,

00:52:39.139 --> 00:52:41.519
you know, hey, maybe they know somebody for you,

00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:43.059
or maybe you know someone for them. It's almost

00:52:43.059 --> 00:52:46.599
like a community approach to to matchmaking also.

00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:52.519
There's something beautiful to that. So I guess

00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:56.199
my next question is about how do we ensure that

00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:59.840
this relationship lasts? How do we establish

00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:05.559
that relationship? And maybe a tip is to go and

00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:10.760
live in the forest, far from anyone else. But

00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:13.760
yeah, what is your answer to that question? Are

00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:16.639
you talking about from a vegan perspective or

00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:19.619
like in general? In general, and I'm curious,

00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:23.619
is there a vegan aspect to this that should be

00:53:23.619 --> 00:53:27.539
considered? As far as making relationships last,

00:53:28.219 --> 00:53:29.900
yeah, that's something I guess I can't answer.

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.619
That's all gonna be down to each individual relationship.

00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:42.360
But from an actual vegan perspective, I think

00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:46.929
it's just about making sure that you Kind of

00:53:46.929 --> 00:53:49.630
have like is because vegans are are all very

00:53:49.630 --> 00:53:54.289
different, right? and it might be to do with

00:53:54.289 --> 00:53:58.090
working past your differences on certain issues

00:53:58.090 --> 00:54:02.409
because Even within the vegan community we have

00:54:02.409 --> 00:54:05.090
debates about random stuff like all the time

00:54:05.090 --> 00:54:07.869
We're not like there's a lot of diversity of

00:54:07.869 --> 00:54:12.610
thought in the vegan movement So my advice would

00:54:12.610 --> 00:54:15.789
be for making those relationships last would

00:54:15.789 --> 00:54:19.170
be to just focus on the thing that you do bond

00:54:19.170 --> 00:54:21.590
on, which is being against the exploitation of

00:54:21.590 --> 00:54:23.869
animals, because we can all have these very long

00:54:23.869 --> 00:54:28.369
and boring debates about God knows what. But

00:54:28.369 --> 00:54:32.090
I think as long as that person shares that fundamental

00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:36.230
belief with you, then that trumps so many of

00:54:36.230 --> 00:54:38.050
the other things that you might have differences

00:54:38.050 --> 00:54:42.199
on, like Like Tom said, you can get Republicans

00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:44.420
and Democrats can be in relationships with each

00:54:44.420 --> 00:54:46.820
other. And that's great, especially if they're

00:54:46.820 --> 00:54:49.860
vegan. And they can argue about who should have

00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:52.699
been elected. Should it have been Trump or should

00:54:52.699 --> 00:54:57.460
it have been, what was her name? Kamala Harris.

00:54:58.179 --> 00:55:01.380
But the main thing is the animals. That's the

00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:04.059
reason that that's the fundamental bond that

00:55:04.059 --> 00:55:08.030
you have. And do you agree that it is important

00:55:08.030 --> 00:55:11.030
to have healthy couples in this vegan movement.

00:55:11.030 --> 00:55:15.309
I do think that there's a history of, you know,

00:55:15.449 --> 00:55:19.130
vegan couples making progress for this movement,

00:55:19.769 --> 00:55:22.409
time and time again, starting with the vegan

00:55:22.409 --> 00:55:25.030
society, I think it was founded by a couple.

00:55:26.449 --> 00:55:30.110
Yeah, there needs to be a good example of a vegan

00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:32.769
everything in the vegan movement, we have to

00:55:32.769 --> 00:55:37.400
show that we are a diverse group of people and

00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:40.079
that whatever we do works in many different ways.

00:55:40.659 --> 00:55:44.300
I want vegans of all religions, all ethnicities,

00:55:44.900 --> 00:55:48.980
single, married, all different body types, different

00:55:48.980 --> 00:55:52.880
political beliefs. I want us all in this movement

00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:58.699
regardless of what we look like or what our relationship

00:55:58.699 --> 00:56:02.320
situation is or whatever. So yeah, having Having

00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:04.719
influential vegan couples and strong vegan couples

00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:06.679
in the animal rights movement is a fantastic

00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:09.880
idea. Great. Tom and Saul, do you have something

00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:14.599
to add? Yeah, as far as making a relationship

00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:18.099
last, I think it helps to connect on multiple

00:56:18.099 --> 00:56:22.260
levels. Like, of course, the vegan and valuing

00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:25.219
animal well -being is a very profound level to

00:56:25.219 --> 00:56:28.530
connect on, but It would also probably be helpful

00:56:28.530 --> 00:56:31.050
to have other interests in common. You know,

00:56:31.130 --> 00:56:33.929
Sol and I make music together. We go on hikes.

00:56:33.929 --> 00:56:38.570
We play with our dogs. I think the more levels

00:56:38.570 --> 00:56:40.750
you can connect with somebody, the stronger is

00:56:40.750 --> 00:56:44.969
sort of the web of your connection. And also,

00:56:45.369 --> 00:56:48.510
as Akiva was saying, the importance of food is

00:56:48.510 --> 00:56:51.809
not to be undervalued and preparing food together,

00:56:51.949 --> 00:56:55.530
sharing food, because certainly veganism, there's

00:56:55.530 --> 00:56:58.920
a lot of philosophical elements at work, but

00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:01.940
at the end of the day, a big part of it comes

00:57:01.940 --> 00:57:04.199
down to what is on the table in front of you.

00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:07.579
And I personally think it's very important to

00:57:07.579 --> 00:57:11.619
be Enjoying good wholesome food together of course

00:57:11.619 --> 00:57:14.340
it's wonderful to have the occasional process

00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:17.260
whatever go out to eat but there is something

00:57:17.260 --> 00:57:20.460
that's very connecting about. Preparing food

00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:23.059
together sitting down over a table just enjoying

00:57:23.059 --> 00:57:26.519
a good old fashioned home cooked meal so that

00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:29.219
that is an expression of veganism and it's also

00:57:29.219 --> 00:57:31.659
something that really strengthens a relationship.

00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:36.199
And I wanted to share an advice that someone

00:57:36.199 --> 00:57:39.320
gave to us in our travels. We met this couple

00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:42.579
that they were not vegans. I don't know what

00:57:42.579 --> 00:57:45.820
they were, but they had been together for 50

00:57:45.820 --> 00:57:48.699
years, 60 years. It was a very, very long time.

00:57:48.699 --> 00:57:52.500
And we asked them, how do you do this? How did

00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:56.940
you manage? And they said, never go to sleep

00:57:56.940 --> 00:58:00.340
having had an argument that wasn't resolved.

00:58:01.539 --> 00:58:05.000
And that kept in my mind for all this time and

00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:08.199
we have almost been together for 12 years and

00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:12.300
I can count with the fingers of one hand the

00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.579
times that I have gone to sleep mad at Tom and

00:58:15.579 --> 00:58:20.119
that I have not resolved it. Maybe you don't

00:58:20.119 --> 00:58:22.960
need to resolve it with words sometimes, but

00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:27.260
sometimes just hugging or... placing your hand

00:58:27.260 --> 00:58:30.119
in their shoulder doing something like that can

00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:34.019
resolve the tension so much better than with

00:58:34.019 --> 00:58:38.940
words and There will be things that we will not

00:58:38.940 --> 00:58:44.239
agree on ever, you know, but there's always the

00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:49.519
The trust and the honesty and the love so that's

00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:52.900
I think what makes it work How long have you

00:58:52.900 --> 00:58:57.349
been together George and Rachel? Is it two, three

00:58:57.349 --> 00:59:01.789
years now? Yeah, it'll be three years in November.

00:59:03.030 --> 00:59:05.210
So you're the youngest couple. So three years

00:59:05.210 --> 00:59:08.510
for you, Tom and Saul 12. And then Akiva, how

00:59:08.510 --> 00:59:12.630
long? We're coming up to 22 years this fall.

00:59:13.550 --> 00:59:17.829
OK, so I want to hear your advice, Akiva. So

00:59:17.829 --> 00:59:20.170
I heard lots of different ideas and I know I

00:59:20.170 --> 00:59:21.449
have all different kinds of ideas in my head,

00:59:21.449 --> 00:59:23.769
but can you maybe just refocus me with the question,

00:59:23.789 --> 00:59:26.280
the original question? Yes, how do we make it

00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:29.780
last? How do we make it last? That's the big

00:59:29.780 --> 00:59:33.139
question. You'll learn a lot of things along

00:59:33.139 --> 00:59:34.699
the way. It's interesting. I kind of alluded

00:59:34.699 --> 00:59:37.739
to it before without going into any detail, but

00:59:37.739 --> 00:59:41.440
even in our dating process. My wife and I had

00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:44.039
a lot of ups and downs and breakups, even, believe

00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:45.980
it or not. We broke up a few times, actually,

00:59:46.099 --> 00:59:49.280
before we got married. It's quite a story. So

00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:51.679
by the time we got engaged, we thought, yeah,

00:59:51.739 --> 00:59:54.380
we went through everything. That's all behind

00:59:54.380 --> 00:59:56.260
us now. Now marriage is going to be simple. And

00:59:56.260 --> 00:59:58.760
remember this one rabbi came up to us at an engagement

00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:01.409
party we had. and it's like I'd love to sit down

01:00:01.409 --> 01:00:02.929
with you and talk to you about like you know

01:00:02.929 --> 01:00:04.849
what in Hebrew we call Shalom by it which is

01:00:04.849 --> 01:00:06.909
like peace in the home and we're like looking

01:00:06.909 --> 01:00:08.949
at each other like we've been through all this

01:00:08.949 --> 01:00:11.409
stuff like we know like he doesn't know our story

01:00:11.409 --> 01:00:13.909
you know we're gonna be just fine Then we realize

01:00:13.909 --> 01:00:15.989
only later once you get married like it's it's

01:00:15.989 --> 01:00:18.150
tough. You know, it's all the great stuff. It's

01:00:18.150 --> 01:00:19.909
all the romance It's all the connection. It's

01:00:19.909 --> 01:00:22.570
all the enjoying beating being together But it's

01:00:22.570 --> 01:00:24.869
also let's be honest like being in a relationship

01:00:24.869 --> 01:00:27.590
being in a marriage comes also with a lot of

01:00:27.590 --> 01:00:29.849
great challenges You know, even if you share

01:00:29.849 --> 01:00:32.449
lots of common things Which I think Tom was the

01:00:32.449 --> 01:00:34.710
one like who said like you should have more in

01:00:34.710 --> 01:00:36.449
common than just like your veganism Which I agree

01:00:36.449 --> 01:00:38.329
with you know, my wife think God and I we have

01:00:38.329 --> 01:00:40.489
a lot in common You know again going back to

01:00:40.489 --> 01:00:42.550
the nature and the hiking and the natural living

01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:45.599
and the healthy living and all that stuff. But

01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:47.440
it's never enough. There's always going to be

01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:48.840
insult. You just said that. There's always going

01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:50.119
to be stuff you fight about. There's always going

01:00:50.119 --> 01:00:53.039
to be stuff you don't agree with, you know, ever.

01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:56.360
So what's the trick? I mean, or the secret or

01:00:56.360 --> 01:01:04.400
the advice? I think it's, you know, really...

01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:06.119
I mean, I think so many things can be said on

01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.059
this. I'll just, like, pick one. But no, this

01:01:08.059 --> 01:01:10.519
is one of many. I think one of the best things

01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:15.719
I could say to answer that question is to know

01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:20.320
that the person you're with, just like you, is

01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:24.130
a divine soul brought into this world. right?

01:01:24.130 --> 01:01:27.110
And you both are two divine souls together to

01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:29.670
do incredible work in this world. And even if

01:01:29.670 --> 01:01:31.789
it gets hard sometimes, and even if there's tension,

01:01:31.849 --> 01:01:34.070
that's all part of the work, right? Literally,

01:01:34.130 --> 01:01:36.630
like, your partner is, like, literally divinely,

01:01:36.630 --> 01:01:39.610
like, appointed to, like, nudge you sometimes,

01:01:39.909 --> 01:01:41.510
because that's part of your personal growth and

01:01:41.510 --> 01:01:43.710
part of your personal transformation, right?

01:01:43.710 --> 01:01:46.110
In Judaism, we look at marriage as, like, again,

01:01:46.130 --> 01:01:47.750
all those great things, all the great things

01:01:47.750 --> 01:01:51.150
that we all, like, say, but also, like, the most

01:01:51.150 --> 01:01:55.210
powerful way We're the most powerful medium for

01:01:55.210 --> 01:01:57.130
personal transformation and personal growth,

01:01:57.650 --> 01:01:59.829
right? That you can only become your truest and

01:01:59.829 --> 01:02:02.949
highest self through the experience of being

01:02:02.949 --> 01:02:05.389
in a partnership with somebody. Because that's

01:02:05.389 --> 01:02:07.809
where you really get like tested and pushed and

01:02:07.809 --> 01:02:09.849
all those great other things, right? So I think

01:02:09.849 --> 01:02:12.010
just like remembering even in the harder times,

01:02:12.090 --> 01:02:14.070
like we're both souls who came into this world

01:02:14.070 --> 01:02:16.510
to do good work into this world and to be with

01:02:16.510 --> 01:02:18.550
one another to do that work and to help each

01:02:18.550 --> 01:02:21.309
other grow. I think that could be a tremendous

01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:27.699
aid in creating a more successful and joyous

01:02:27.699 --> 01:02:31.619
marriage. Thank you. I want to get to the topic

01:02:31.619 --> 01:02:35.300
of children in the vegan community. But first,

01:02:35.860 --> 01:02:39.619
sex. And there's this whole thing about, you

01:02:39.619 --> 01:02:44.079
know, let's make make veganism sexy. And you've

01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:49.719
seen all you know, the the PETA ads and And there

01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:53.500
is, I feel like, an attack on vegans on that

01:02:53.500 --> 01:02:59.260
front, too. You know, the soy boiting and then

01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:03.760
the fact that we're all weak and unhealthy. All

01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:07.679
of that doesn't cry, you know, sexy to me. So

01:03:07.679 --> 01:03:11.320
is veganism sexy? What do you make of those PETA

01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:15.519
ads? Veganism is very sexy. And we talked about

01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:18.969
this last time, Ryan, but you know being vegan

01:03:18.969 --> 01:03:20.969
for long enough and really probably not for even

01:03:20.969 --> 01:03:24.909
very long it changes the way that you taste and

01:03:24.909 --> 01:03:28.389
smell and that's why like you know i would not

01:03:28.389 --> 01:03:34.150
ever consider kissing a carnivore because i mean

01:03:34.150 --> 01:03:36.889
for many reasons but because they will just taste

01:03:36.889 --> 01:03:39.909
terrible it actually is the the acidity from

01:03:39.909 --> 01:03:44.329
animal products changes your chemistry so that

01:03:44.329 --> 01:03:48.110
you know you become physically unappealing to

01:03:48.110 --> 01:03:51.730
somebody who has been tuned to a more pure way

01:03:51.730 --> 01:03:54.969
of living. So is it sexy to smell good and taste

01:03:54.969 --> 01:03:57.710
good? Or is it sexy to smell like you've been

01:03:57.710 --> 01:04:01.050
consuming cadavers? You know, like I think it's

01:04:01.050 --> 01:04:05.250
pretty obvious that smell and taste, you know,

01:04:05.309 --> 01:04:08.510
they operate on us at a more subliminal unconscious

01:04:08.510 --> 01:04:11.340
level than sight. But that's very important.

01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:14.340
But in terms of sight, also, vegan diet is very

01:04:14.340 --> 01:04:17.260
good for purifying the skin, for clearing out

01:04:17.260 --> 01:04:24.139
toxins. You might not be a heavyweight champion,

01:04:24.260 --> 01:04:26.960
a big muscle builder, or you might be. There's

01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:29.199
plenty examples of those incredible vegan athletes,

01:04:29.239 --> 01:04:32.440
which we can all point to. But yeah, at the end

01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:37.159
of the day, is there anything sexier than being

01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:39.559
true to your values, even though it's not what

01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:42.179
the masses are doing. I think that's the sexiest

01:04:42.179 --> 01:04:44.360
thing a person can do, is be willing to speak

01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:49.300
up and take a position that isn't endorsed by

01:04:49.300 --> 01:04:51.940
the dominant culture, but is important to them

01:04:51.940 --> 01:04:56.500
personally. Also, not eating carcasses is very

01:04:56.500 --> 01:05:02.300
sexy. Yes. Not being a cannibal. Rachel George?

01:05:04.429 --> 01:05:07.010
I've never thought of veganism as being sexy,

01:05:07.130 --> 01:05:14.650
but I do understand, particularly from those

01:05:14.650 --> 01:05:19.630
who are attracted to men in the movement, that

01:05:19.630 --> 01:05:24.710
being a male vegan is sexy because male vegans

01:05:24.710 --> 01:05:27.650
are underrepresented as vegans. I think males

01:05:27.650 --> 01:05:31.090
only make up about 25 % or something of the movement.

01:05:31.630 --> 01:05:34.880
And what it shows, I guess, when particularly

01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:37.940
a man because so much propaganda gets chucked

01:05:37.940 --> 01:05:41.380
at us as men about you have to eat animals to

01:05:41.380 --> 01:05:43.860
be masculine you have to kill animals to be masculine

01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:46.760
you're not allowed to show empathy for the weak

01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:49.219
and defenseless which violates the principles

01:05:49.219 --> 01:05:51.840
of masculinity it's such ridiculous propaganda

01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:54.500
because we wouldn't you know if if a man said

01:05:54.500 --> 01:05:58.320
um yeah i i think it's fun to harm children no

01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:01.000
women would no woman would find that attractive.

01:06:01.480 --> 01:06:05.000
But then the beef industry has all this propaganda

01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:07.579
they chuck at us that is convincing people that

01:06:07.579 --> 01:06:11.679
it's sexy and masculine to harm little calves

01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:14.860
in the dairy industry and in the beef industry.

01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:19.699
It makes absolutely no sense. So while I don't

01:06:19.699 --> 01:06:22.000
personally see anything sexy about veganism,

01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:25.519
I do understand that side of the argument. What

01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:29.619
do you think, babe? Yeah, I think that Yeah,

01:06:29.739 --> 01:06:33.559
if somebody is vegan and you're really vibing

01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:35.739
with them and then find out they're vegan, I

01:06:35.739 --> 01:06:38.179
think it can definitely make somebody more attractive.

01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:42.719
I don't think veganism as a thing is sexy, but

01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:47.019
I think just knowing somebody is very compassionate

01:06:47.019 --> 01:06:53.000
and cares about. the most oppressed beings on

01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:55.719
the planet like that definitely does make somebody

01:06:55.719 --> 01:06:58.599
more attractive in my eyes and other people's

01:06:58.599 --> 01:07:02.340
eyes as well who are vegan so Akiva I'm really

01:07:02.340 --> 01:07:05.099
curious when someone is looking for a partner

01:07:05.099 --> 01:07:08.760
and comes to see you Do they have to make a list

01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:11.639
of what attracts them, you know physically to?

01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.219
You know in someone Yeah, it's one of the questions

01:07:15.219 --> 01:07:17.460
I asked them both in terms of their values and

01:07:17.460 --> 01:07:20.119
ideals and passions and interests and hobbies

01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:23.139
that and also yeah Let's get a sense of you know,

01:07:23.360 --> 01:07:24.760
what kind of person you're attracted to because

01:07:24.760 --> 01:07:26.559
different people are attracted to different kinds

01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:30.139
of people different everything But I also learn

01:07:30.139 --> 01:07:32.880
more about that specifically as I share ideas

01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:35.480
with them that I can kind of you know They say

01:07:35.480 --> 01:07:37.800
oh no way that not my type where well, it definitely

01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:41.159
you know that that You know, clarifies it even

01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:44.159
much more than a than a list, let's say. But

01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:46.619
yeah, definitely a part of the process, the beginning

01:07:46.619 --> 01:07:49.099
part of the process. And did you want to add

01:07:49.099 --> 01:07:53.119
something about this sex related conversation?

01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:56.199
So it's interesting, as you can imagine, I don't

01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:58.500
talk about the sexy part of veganism in my work.

01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:01.619
But I really like what was just said here. I'll

01:08:01.619 --> 01:08:04.380
use the word attractive. uh instead and i do

01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:06.420
i agree pretty much i'll be just reiterating

01:08:06.420 --> 01:08:08.500
what i just heard because i agree with what with

01:08:08.500 --> 01:08:11.289
what was said Yeah, it's like when you're like

01:08:11.289 --> 01:08:13.269
strong to your values, strong to like what's

01:08:13.269 --> 01:08:14.949
right, something that's righteous, something

01:08:14.949 --> 01:08:17.329
that doesn't go with the flow. You're not afraid

01:08:17.329 --> 01:08:20.109
to go against the flow. I mean, that's like,

01:08:20.229 --> 01:08:22.189
wow. You know, people are attracted to that.

01:08:22.189 --> 01:08:24.569
That's strength. That's strength. There's this

01:08:24.569 --> 01:08:26.189
ancient Jewish teaching that says, you know,

01:08:26.229 --> 01:08:28.529
who is the strong person? The person who can

01:08:28.529 --> 01:08:31.630
overcome their, their evil inclination. That's

01:08:31.630 --> 01:08:33.069
called strength. That's the one who can like

01:08:33.069 --> 01:08:35.800
bench press. 3000 pounds, you know someone who

01:08:35.800 --> 01:08:39.279
has the ability to overcome their their natural

01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:42.520
lusts Right and actually in this week's Torah

01:08:42.520 --> 01:08:45.399
portion, right and many other places in the Torah

01:08:45.399 --> 01:08:49.220
It equates many times eating meat with lust people

01:08:49.220 --> 01:08:52.840
eat meat because of lust Right and we are like

01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:55.340
in other traditions for sure, right? We're supposed

01:08:55.340 --> 01:08:58.880
to overcome our lust and if you can and if you

01:08:58.880 --> 01:09:01.560
do Wow, that's strength and that's attractive

01:09:02.159 --> 01:09:08.359
Okay, let's talk about children now. Any plans

01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:12.260
for you, Tom and Sol, George and Rachel for having

01:09:12.260 --> 01:09:15.079
children? I know the answer for you, George and

01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:24.039
Rachel. But yeah, Tom, Sol. Well, I never was

01:09:24.039 --> 01:09:27.159
someone who was interested in having kids. Like

01:09:27.159 --> 01:09:30.939
when I was a girl, I wouldn't play with... babies

01:09:30.939 --> 01:09:33.420
and, you know, like baby toys or anything. I

01:09:33.420 --> 01:09:40.020
preferred horses. We still don't know. We will

01:09:40.020 --> 01:09:43.399
see what happens. And I used to think that I

01:09:43.399 --> 01:09:46.460
didn't want to bring another human into this

01:09:46.460 --> 01:09:51.600
world because it would cause more... Well, bringing

01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:54.079
a human... Well, they take resources. There are

01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:57.920
things that need to be done, you know, to exist

01:09:57.920 --> 01:10:02.479
in this world, but... Tom opened my mind saying

01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:06.319
that well, we have kids and we give them our

01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:08.520
values, share our values with them. We might

01:10:08.520 --> 01:10:12.300
be raising someone who is doing activism, doing

01:10:12.300 --> 01:10:14.720
good things, you know, to change the world and

01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:18.510
to make it better. But still, we don't know.

01:10:18.590 --> 01:10:21.649
We're enjoying having our dogs and that responsibility

01:10:21.649 --> 01:10:25.270
is good enough for now. Yeah, you know, before

01:10:25.270 --> 01:10:27.350
having children, it's good to warm up maybe with

01:10:27.350 --> 01:10:32.109
a few house plants, try out a dog or two. If

01:10:32.109 --> 01:10:34.250
you can make it through that, then you're ready

01:10:34.250 --> 01:10:38.069
for kids, maybe. But I also understand the perspective

01:10:38.069 --> 01:10:41.010
of somebody who doesn't want to bring children

01:10:41.010 --> 01:10:45.409
into the world for whatever reason. I personally

01:10:45.409 --> 01:10:49.729
think that not reproducing is not going to be

01:10:49.729 --> 01:10:53.210
a winning strategy for the movements over the

01:10:53.210 --> 01:10:57.050
long term. That's how the gene pool disappears.

01:10:57.210 --> 01:11:01.510
If you look at the success of many major world

01:11:01.510 --> 01:11:04.270
religions, not all of them, but like Hinduism,

01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:07.590
Christianity, Islam, they're all related to producing

01:11:07.590 --> 01:11:10.010
and having as many children as possible as fast

01:11:10.010 --> 01:11:12.149
as possible. I don't think that's a good strategy

01:11:12.149 --> 01:11:16.899
either. reproduction and passing along your values

01:11:16.899 --> 01:11:20.340
to a new generation, I think, is a wonderful

01:11:20.340 --> 01:11:22.819
thing. And it's a crucial part of the movement

01:11:22.819 --> 01:11:25.920
for at least some of us to be doing that. So

01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:27.899
I think for Sol and I personally, although we're

01:11:27.899 --> 01:11:29.760
not in a rush to do it, and I wouldn't say we

01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:32.920
have plans to do it, I'm sure it will happen

01:11:32.920 --> 01:11:37.220
eventually because it's just... an amazing way

01:11:37.220 --> 01:11:41.579
to express our love. And I'd always wonder, you

01:11:41.579 --> 01:11:43.539
know, what what kind of if we didn't do it, I'd

01:11:43.539 --> 01:11:45.500
always wonder what kind of child we might have

01:11:45.500 --> 01:11:48.420
had. So I think that's something we will explore

01:11:48.420 --> 01:11:52.100
eventually. But I know many couples that have

01:11:52.100 --> 01:11:55.619
had children in the very beginning. And for some

01:11:55.619 --> 01:11:57.720
of them, it works out great. But for others,

01:11:57.739 --> 01:12:00.140
as soon as you have a child, it's like the attention

01:12:00.140 --> 01:12:01.880
that you would have been spending on your partner

01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:05.079
is now focused on this new entity. And and so

01:12:05.079 --> 01:12:07.060
you don't necessarily have as much time to explore

01:12:07.060 --> 01:12:10.279
your own personal relationship in advance. So

01:12:10.279 --> 01:12:13.439
I've I really value that we've had these 12 years

01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:15.539
together to not have children and to get to know

01:12:15.539 --> 01:12:18.680
each other. And then if we've survived this,

01:12:18.720 --> 01:12:20.939
then, yeah, I'm sure we can handle some kids

01:12:20.939 --> 01:12:25.920
eventually. So you are a maybe that's that's

01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.340
fun because George and Rachel, you can convince

01:12:28.340 --> 01:12:30.899
them not to have children and I keep you can.

01:12:31.470 --> 01:12:35.130
try to convince them to have children. So George

01:12:35.130 --> 01:12:40.270
and Rachel, what is your response? Well, look,

01:12:40.329 --> 01:12:42.149
I don't think we're going to be here on this

01:12:42.149 --> 01:12:43.789
call that I don't think we're going to be able

01:12:43.789 --> 01:12:46.189
to convince anyone to do anything. But yeah,

01:12:46.270 --> 01:12:48.649
one of the reasons that me and Rachel clicked

01:12:48.649 --> 01:12:52.710
so well is because neither of us wanted children.

01:12:53.609 --> 01:12:55.649
A lot of it plays into the stuff. So we're saying

01:12:55.649 --> 01:12:57.649
at the start about adding new suffering beings

01:12:57.649 --> 01:13:02.760
to the world and you know like we say adopt don't

01:13:02.760 --> 01:13:06.880
shop um maybe adopt don't pop could be a vegan

01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:09.260
saying with regards to that because there's plenty

01:13:09.260 --> 01:13:12.500
of children in orphanages who need a home and

01:13:12.500 --> 01:13:15.140
we can pass on our values that way and we would

01:13:15.140 --> 01:13:18.359
just see it as a a big gamble wouldn't we to

01:13:18.359 --> 01:13:20.140
have a kid because you just don't know there's

01:13:20.140 --> 01:13:23.319
even notable incidents there's actual notable

01:13:23.319 --> 01:13:27.109
cases i'm not going to name who they are pretty

01:13:27.109 --> 01:13:29.829
well -known animal rights activists in the movement

01:13:29.829 --> 01:13:35.850
who have had kids and the kid grows up and you've

01:13:35.850 --> 01:13:38.609
added someone who's paying for what happens to

01:13:38.609 --> 01:13:42.170
animals to the world and that's a risk we didn't

01:13:42.170 --> 01:13:47.029
want to take and even I think even and this is

01:13:47.029 --> 01:13:50.489
completely unrelated but even if we did think

01:13:50.489 --> 01:13:54.289
that it would even if it was in line with our

01:13:54.289 --> 01:13:57.779
values to actually have kids don't think we wouldn't

01:13:57.779 --> 01:13:59.840
we would have them anyway just with how expensive

01:13:59.840 --> 01:14:01.920
stuff is these days and it just looks really

01:14:01.920 --> 01:14:03.760
tough like all our friends who have kids like

01:14:03.760 --> 01:14:05.560
they tell us all the stories and it to be honest

01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:09.840
it just looks like a nightmare so anyone who's

01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:12.979
listening who's a parent can attest to that like

01:14:12.979 --> 01:14:16.140
my mate talked about how he's on a flight back

01:14:16.140 --> 01:14:19.720
from Brazil the other month and his you know

01:14:19.720 --> 01:14:22.180
how a like two -year -old daughter was like screaming

01:14:22.180 --> 01:14:24.659
and stuff all the way home all the way on the

01:14:24.659 --> 01:14:30.420
flight and It yeah It isn't for me in any case,

01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:33.800
but it used to be before I was vegan I actually

01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:37.460
did want to have kids but then Many things that

01:14:37.460 --> 01:14:39.699
I came across as a result of being in the movement

01:14:39.699 --> 01:14:42.380
has had made me change my opinion. I don't know

01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:46.500
Yeah, well and to touch base on Tom bringing

01:14:46.500 --> 01:14:49.319
up that like many religions are rooted in like

01:14:49.520 --> 01:14:53.180
having kids and passing that tradition down to

01:14:53.180 --> 01:14:56.920
the kids. I have seen that happen a lot, but

01:14:56.920 --> 01:15:00.800
with veganism and with religion, I know a lot

01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:03.640
of people who are raised super Christian and

01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:08.840
they're atheists now, or who dabbled in atheism

01:15:08.840 --> 01:15:11.659
and then went back to Christianity, but I think

01:15:11.659 --> 01:15:14.819
it's a huge thing that children always want to

01:15:14.819 --> 01:15:19.489
rebel against their parents. at some point and

01:15:19.489 --> 01:15:24.010
you have to deal with knowing that you may have

01:15:24.010 --> 01:15:27.750
reproduced and brought another animal abuser

01:15:27.750 --> 01:15:30.069
to the planet because you can't really control

01:15:30.069 --> 01:15:34.430
what your kid does outside of the house or once

01:15:34.430 --> 01:15:37.130
they're an adult they could grow up to be like

01:15:37.130 --> 01:15:40.630
a farmer or something that's a huge fear of mine

01:15:40.630 --> 01:15:44.850
I would feel so bad if I knew that all my work

01:15:44.850 --> 01:15:49.140
for the animal rights community has just become

01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:57.979
obsolete because I brought forth a farmer. My

01:15:57.979 --> 01:16:02.880
own dad is a fisherman and was a hunter. So I

01:16:02.880 --> 01:16:06.000
didn't grow up with his values. He doesn't shoot

01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:08.119
anymore. He still fishes, but he doesn't shoot

01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:09.859
because he said I've had some kind of effect

01:16:09.859 --> 01:16:14.060
on him there. But yeah, that's just one example.

01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:18.439
Yeah, being a fisherman is in the gene pool.

01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:23.699
It's a risk. Akiva, what is your answer to that

01:16:23.699 --> 01:16:26.520
question? Big question and super fun to hear

01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:30.100
everyone's answers. Yeah, as you can imagine,

01:16:30.420 --> 01:16:32.319
and as you might know, having kids in the Jewish

01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:35.739
tradition is strong, very strong value. Even

01:16:35.739 --> 01:16:38.340
a mitzvah, as we call it, a commandment to have

01:16:38.340 --> 01:16:41.100
children. According to Judaism, like, you have

01:16:41.100 --> 01:16:45.090
to have kids, you know. You don't have to have

01:16:45.090 --> 01:16:46.710
a ton of kids. It's interesting, even though

01:16:46.710 --> 01:16:49.909
a lot of Orthodox and ultra -Orthodox families

01:16:49.909 --> 01:16:52.149
today do have many kids. I have friends who have

01:16:52.149 --> 01:16:56.229
eight kids, six kids. I have a friend who is

01:16:56.229 --> 01:16:58.649
one of 15 children. Now, that's not the norm,

01:16:58.649 --> 01:17:01.449
but it does exist, just so you know. My grandmother,

01:17:01.590 --> 01:17:03.369
maybe some of your grandparents are also, because

01:17:03.369 --> 01:17:05.229
that was a different world even just two generations

01:17:05.229 --> 01:17:08.670
ago. My grandmother was the youngest of 13 children,

01:17:09.029 --> 01:17:11.449
and my grandfather was the youngest of 10. They

01:17:11.449 --> 01:17:15.640
were both from Poland. Right? Um, like also in

01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:17.819
Judaism, I have to say it's like a survival skill.

01:17:17.819 --> 01:17:19.760
Like if we don't reproduce, we're done. Like

01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:21.880
we're, we're, we're just getting back to pre

01:17:21.880 --> 01:17:24.560
Holocaust numbers now. It's kind of crazy. Right?

01:17:25.100 --> 01:17:27.699
So like we needed to keep our numbers up. Um,

01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:29.800
and I know that's like a little bit of a dark

01:17:29.800 --> 01:17:31.880
thing to share here, but whatever. We're talking

01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:34.640
about having kids. Um, like ha kind of like marriage,

01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:36.600
having kids is like the best thing ever. And

01:17:36.600 --> 01:17:39.609
the craziest thing ever. Like seriously the best

01:17:39.609 --> 01:17:41.310
thing ever and like why in the world would you

01:17:41.310 --> 01:17:43.409
have kids kind of thing, right? It's the hardest

01:17:43.409 --> 01:17:45.750
thing ever also for sure without a doubt. My

01:17:45.750 --> 01:17:48.409
kids are now getting older, you know, which on

01:17:48.409 --> 01:17:50.170
some level makes it easier. Our kids, we have

01:17:50.170 --> 01:17:53.510
four kids from nine to 19 years old and it makes

01:17:53.510 --> 01:17:55.430
it somewhat easier, but then it just comes with

01:17:55.430 --> 01:17:57.369
like, you know, new issues and problems like

01:17:57.369 --> 01:18:02.750
the teenage years. But yeah, like you said, Rachel,

01:18:02.869 --> 01:18:05.340
like you never know. you know where your kids

01:18:05.340 --> 01:18:06.699
are going to go or how they're going to turn

01:18:06.699 --> 01:18:08.739
out and that goes with religious traditions and

01:18:08.739 --> 01:18:11.020
with like diets and all all different kinds of

01:18:11.020 --> 01:18:13.319
i'm so different than my parents you know my

01:18:13.319 --> 01:18:15.800
dad thought i was going to go to west point and

01:18:15.800 --> 01:18:18.800
like you know become a corporate something i

01:18:18.800 --> 01:18:21.720
don't know what you know and i like take a left

01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:23.579
turn somewhere and like went in a very very different

01:18:23.579 --> 01:18:28.760
direction you know um you never know like because

01:18:28.760 --> 01:18:30.579
my wife is vegetarian and we'll just share more

01:18:30.579 --> 01:18:34.100
personally like She raised her kids the way she

01:18:34.100 --> 01:18:36.939
eats, right? So my kids are not vegan. They were

01:18:36.939 --> 01:18:40.140
all raised vegetarian. I had a job for many years

01:18:40.140 --> 01:18:41.840
where I was out of the house literally for like

01:18:41.840 --> 01:18:45.159
half the time. I missed like half of their upbringing

01:18:45.159 --> 01:18:47.619
just because I was like a teacher tour guide.

01:18:47.779 --> 01:18:50.100
I was on the road with groups a lot here in Israel.

01:18:50.600 --> 01:18:53.359
Thank God I can say I think I'm a really good

01:18:53.359 --> 01:18:56.420
father. So I had like a good quality time with

01:18:56.420 --> 01:18:59.420
my kids and even more so now that I work from

01:18:59.420 --> 01:19:06.880
home. But yeah, you don't know. But I think the

01:19:06.880 --> 01:19:08.720
most important thing and the strongest thing

01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:10.699
and the greatest reason to have kids is right,

01:19:10.800 --> 01:19:12.880
it's passing on those values. So even if though

01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:16.180
my kids... Right are not vegan. They know that

01:19:16.180 --> 01:19:18.819
I'm vegan They know why I'm vegan and they and

01:19:18.819 --> 01:19:20.920
they've heard those values. They've absorbed

01:19:20.920 --> 01:19:23.460
it, right? Like again, like one of the big things

01:19:23.460 --> 01:19:24.960
like, you know My wife and I share in common

01:19:24.960 --> 01:19:27.399
is like healthy eating our kids are all like

01:19:27.399 --> 01:19:29.779
amazing healthy eaters you know, they're eating

01:19:29.779 --> 01:19:33.939
salads like all day long, you know, and So, you

01:19:33.939 --> 01:19:36.140
know you see it as your kids get older You can

01:19:36.140 --> 01:19:38.819
see the impact that you made on your kids, you

01:19:38.819 --> 01:19:40.680
know, and it's not only their diet It's how they

01:19:40.680 --> 01:19:42.479
are what kind of people they are How do they

01:19:42.479 --> 01:19:44.720
speak? How do they act? How do they show up in

01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:49.060
the world? And like, as we say in Hebrew, I'm

01:19:49.060 --> 01:19:51.199
proud of my kids. I'm very proud of my kids.

01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:53.539
You know, I'm proud of how they have turned out

01:19:53.539 --> 01:19:56.600
and are turning out. And that, I believe, is

01:19:56.600 --> 01:19:59.119
a big part of making the world a better place.

01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:02.439
If you believe in your values, pass them on.

01:20:02.680 --> 01:20:04.140
And even though you're right, you don't know

01:20:04.140 --> 01:20:07.770
which way they're going to go. You do your best

01:20:07.770 --> 01:20:09.449
and then you start seeing your kids like wow

01:20:09.449 --> 01:20:11.770
being those kind of people that you really Proud

01:20:11.770 --> 01:20:15.130
of them to be it's an amazing thing. So Tom and

01:20:15.130 --> 01:20:18.869
soul who convinced you Everybody had very good

01:20:18.869 --> 01:20:21.109
points and you know, I appreciate the points

01:20:21.109 --> 01:20:24.329
brought up by George and Rachel about the tendency

01:20:24.329 --> 01:20:27.369
for Kids, especially when they're teenagers or

01:20:27.369 --> 01:20:29.609
early adults to want to rebel against family

01:20:29.609 --> 01:20:32.350
values. I think probably all of us rebelled in

01:20:32.350 --> 01:20:36.819
some small way But, you know, if your parents

01:20:36.819 --> 01:20:39.800
and the culture has instilled values deeply enough

01:20:39.800 --> 01:20:42.680
in you, you know, like when you rebel as a teenager,

01:20:42.739 --> 01:20:44.859
you don't just become a homicidal mass murderer

01:20:44.859 --> 01:20:47.000
because I'm going to rebel against the culture,

01:20:47.000 --> 01:20:49.380
right? There are lines that will not be crossed.

01:20:49.819 --> 01:20:54.020
So I guess for vegan parents, it depends on how

01:20:54.020 --> 01:20:56.960
well you have instilled values in your children,

01:20:57.060 --> 01:20:58.920
which will determine to what degree they're going

01:20:58.920 --> 01:21:02.380
to want to rebel. Will they consider killing

01:21:02.590 --> 01:21:06.010
innocent, helpless beings, a cool form of teenage

01:21:06.010 --> 01:21:08.710
rebellion. I think if you've done your job right

01:21:08.710 --> 01:21:11.210
as a parent, that will never even cross their

01:21:11.210 --> 01:21:15.050
minds. And we've got some very good vegan friends

01:21:15.050 --> 01:21:18.250
here in the area who raised their child vegan,

01:21:18.529 --> 01:21:22.609
and he's 17 years old. But he goes to friends'

01:21:22.869 --> 01:21:25.390
houses, and when there's non -vegan food, he

01:21:25.390 --> 01:21:28.829
doesn't even consider taking it. You know, he's

01:21:28.829 --> 01:21:30.550
young enough. There's still time for some sort

01:21:30.550 --> 01:21:33.109
of anti vegan rebellion to manifest but I really

01:21:33.109 --> 01:21:36.210
don't see it coming just because They have invested

01:21:36.210 --> 01:21:39.890
so much of their personal time into their child's

01:21:39.890 --> 01:21:43.310
upbringing, you know, it wasn't just We're gonna

01:21:43.310 --> 01:21:48.149
send him away like they actually have homeschooled

01:21:48.149 --> 01:21:51.470
him and Really spent more time than most parents

01:21:51.470 --> 01:21:54.149
have on their hands to invest in their child

01:21:55.180 --> 01:21:58.779
But I think for vegan parents, you don't have

01:21:58.779 --> 01:22:01.520
to homeschool, but you do have to spend a lot

01:22:01.520 --> 01:22:03.560
more of your own personal time making sure that

01:22:03.560 --> 01:22:05.899
those values are passed on. Because if you do

01:22:05.899 --> 01:22:08.359
just send them to a public school, and they're

01:22:08.359 --> 01:22:11.659
surrounded by all of their friends, and kids

01:22:11.659 --> 01:22:14.180
are such social entities, and there's so much

01:22:14.180 --> 01:22:17.079
about wanting to fit in with the group, that

01:22:17.079 --> 01:22:21.100
it is very easy for... maybe sinister values

01:22:21.100 --> 01:22:24.640
to slip through. So I think it really comes down

01:22:24.640 --> 01:22:27.340
to how well have you passed on those values to

01:22:27.340 --> 01:22:29.439
your kids so that it won't even cross their minds

01:22:29.439 --> 01:22:33.199
to want to murder and cause the suffering of

01:22:33.199 --> 01:22:36.760
another animal. Yeah, I mean, our answer remains

01:22:36.760 --> 01:22:40.359
the same. We'll probably have kids, but I understand

01:22:40.359 --> 01:22:43.699
the arguments on both sides, certainly. And I

01:22:43.699 --> 01:22:46.640
do fear that it might be very expensive, but

01:22:46.640 --> 01:22:49.760
it could also not be. It just depends on how

01:22:49.760 --> 01:22:53.140
you do it and maybe you can live more humbly.

01:22:54.279 --> 01:22:59.399
The way that Tom and I live, we don't spend much

01:22:59.399 --> 01:23:03.039
money. I mean, we stay a lot at home and hang

01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:06.060
out in the forest. We don't go out to eat a bunch

01:23:06.060 --> 01:23:09.539
and things like that. And I think that... parenting,

01:23:09.859 --> 01:23:11.979
there are different ways to do it so it can be

01:23:11.979 --> 01:23:15.199
more affordable. Otherwise my family couldn't

01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:18.420
have had three kids, you know, coming from Argentina

01:23:18.420 --> 01:23:22.840
from a kind of a poor background and all these

01:23:22.840 --> 01:23:25.159
other families that I know and they did have

01:23:25.159 --> 01:23:29.119
kids and they have a beautiful relationship which

01:23:29.119 --> 01:23:34.119
I hope that one day I can feel what my mom feels

01:23:34.119 --> 01:23:38.489
for her kids, you know, that love that I know

01:23:38.489 --> 01:23:41.689
if I needed her heart, she would give it to me

01:23:41.689 --> 01:23:45.810
to save me. And I think that that's a wonderful

01:23:45.810 --> 01:23:50.949
human experience. And I'm curious. Orphanages

01:23:50.949 --> 01:23:52.750
are a great option, too. That was another good

01:23:52.750 --> 01:23:55.409
point from George and Rachel is adoption is for

01:23:55.409 --> 01:23:59.130
sure an option. Yeah. And people who are on the

01:23:59.130 --> 01:24:00.609
fence and don't know if they want to have kids.

01:24:00.789 --> 01:24:02.409
Yeah, don't do it. You shouldn't be on the fence

01:24:02.409 --> 01:24:05.890
about it. And if you have children, don't send

01:24:05.890 --> 01:24:10.399
them to school. I did the whole episode about

01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:13.260
that with the great Peter Grape psychologist

01:24:13.260 --> 01:24:16.039
at Boston University. Go check out the episode,

01:24:16.220 --> 01:24:20.500
homeschool them. That's the way to go. OK, so

01:24:20.500 --> 01:24:25.439
I think that that's all the time we have. Did

01:24:25.439 --> 01:24:27.800
you want to add something before I stop the recording?

01:24:28.479 --> 01:24:30.720
I just want to say this was so fun and I feel

01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:32.479
like we can keep going for like another hour.

01:24:32.979 --> 01:24:34.739
Really, just your questions are amazing. I love

01:24:34.739 --> 01:24:38.539
hearing everyone's answers. So like really thank

01:24:38.539 --> 01:24:41.319
you for having me. I wish my wife was here. She

01:24:41.319 --> 01:24:42.619
would have really enjoyed this as well. I think

01:24:42.619 --> 01:24:45.079
you guys would have liked her also a lot, even

01:24:45.079 --> 01:24:46.939
though she's not fully vegan. Although she's

01:24:46.939 --> 01:24:48.460
like, I would say that she's between vegetarian

01:24:48.460 --> 01:24:50.199
and mostly vegan these days, which is really

01:24:50.199 --> 01:24:52.359
cool to see without me saying very much at all.

01:24:53.079 --> 01:24:55.819
But anyways, such an awesome and important conversation.

01:24:57.220 --> 01:25:00.560
And if I could just share one last closing thought,

01:25:00.619 --> 01:25:03.119
you don't have to use it, whatever. But just

01:25:03.119 --> 01:25:05.520
the idea that I believe, as again, I imagine

01:25:05.520 --> 01:25:07.539
in other religious and spiritual traditions,

01:25:08.479 --> 01:25:09.960
there's this belief that the future is going

01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:12.979
to be a much better place, that we're going towards

01:25:12.979 --> 01:25:17.659
improvement. and betterment and perfection even,

01:25:17.819 --> 01:25:20.000
we can say. And Judaism definitely believes in

01:25:20.000 --> 01:25:21.720
that. We call it Tikkun Olam, which is called

01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:24.079
the fixing of the world. We're not yet there,

01:25:24.100 --> 01:25:26.760
so we're experiencing the broken phase of the

01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:28.920
human story with all of its beauty and goodness

01:25:28.920 --> 01:25:31.619
at the same time. But there is this belief that

01:25:31.619 --> 01:25:34.520
the world will return to a state of beauty and

01:25:34.520 --> 01:25:36.500
perfection in the future. And along with that,

01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:41.880
the return to the original human diet given by

01:25:41.880 --> 01:25:44.960
God uh, which is completely vegan, which is talked

01:25:44.960 --> 01:25:46.739
about in the first chapter of Genesis, verse

01:25:46.739 --> 01:25:50.060
29. All right. So, uh, even though it gets hard

01:25:50.060 --> 01:25:52.079
and bumpy and all over the place, and are we

01:25:52.079 --> 01:25:54.399
ever going to get there? I just, I, I gain a

01:25:54.399 --> 01:25:58.960
lot of, um, faith and, um, strength from the

01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:00.779
fact that like, it's, it's almost like predestined,

01:26:00.819 --> 01:26:02.520
like we're going to get there. We just got to

01:26:02.520 --> 01:26:04.880
like, do what we each need to do in order to

01:26:04.880 --> 01:26:06.699
get there, but we're going to get there one day.

01:26:07.159 --> 01:26:11.600
Beautiful parting words. Any more comments? Yeah,

01:26:11.619 --> 01:26:14.890
sure. Just to reiterate, I love the positivity

01:26:14.890 --> 01:26:18.510
from Akiva there, and I do see that the vegan

01:26:18.510 --> 01:26:21.130
movement and the animal rights movement is gaining

01:26:21.130 --> 01:26:24.189
momentum. Sometimes it doesn't seem that way,

01:26:24.270 --> 01:26:27.430
like in recent years there's been a surge of

01:26:27.430 --> 01:26:29.810
the carnivore diets and all this anti -vegan

01:26:29.810 --> 01:26:33.069
sentiment, but that is a reaction to how successful

01:26:33.069 --> 01:26:36.560
our movement is and continues to be. And it's

01:26:36.560 --> 01:26:37.880
all about, you know, where you're looking at

01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:40.079
on the chart. If you look at just the last five

01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:42.220
years, are there more vegans today than five

01:26:42.220 --> 01:26:44.180
years ago? I don't know. If you look at the last

01:26:44.180 --> 01:26:47.899
20 years or the last 50 years, there is 100 percent

01:26:47.899 --> 01:26:51.079
a far greater vegan presence in the world. I

01:26:51.079 --> 01:26:53.300
think Akiva, you can see that in Israel very

01:26:53.300 --> 01:26:55.779
clearly. Israel is, from what I understand, an

01:26:55.779 --> 01:26:59.180
incredibly vegan country now. So if it can happen

01:26:59.180 --> 01:27:01.199
in Israel, it can happen everywhere. And we've

01:27:01.199 --> 01:27:03.399
just got to keep building momentum wherever we

01:27:03.399 --> 01:27:06.319
are. So everyone, we'll just add then a final

01:27:06.319 --> 01:27:09.399
word so that we're not the only ones who don't

01:27:09.399 --> 01:27:12.319
say anything at the end. Thanks everyone for

01:27:12.319 --> 01:27:19.579
joining in and great conversation. We hope everyone

01:27:19.579 --> 01:27:23.699
who listened to it can take any of our useful

01:27:23.699 --> 01:27:27.140
advice we potentially gave throughout the podcast.

01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:29.920
Thank you everyone. Thank you for the optimism.

01:27:30.180 --> 01:27:32.760
Thank you for the advice and the insights. I

01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:37.140
do believe this will be helpful for people and

01:27:37.140 --> 01:27:40.920
it has been really, really fun. Yes. So thank

01:27:40.920 --> 01:27:44.159
you. Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly

01:27:44.159 --> 01:27:46.880
invite you to share this podcast with the vegans

01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:50.119
you know. Let's encourage more people to take

01:27:50.119 --> 01:27:53.859
action. Again, thank you so much for caring and

01:27:53.859 --> 01:27:56.840
I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.