WEBVTT 00:00:00.110 --> 00:00:03.029 My name is Ryan and you are listening to The 00:00:03.029 --> 00:00:06.629 Vegan Report. In light of recent news that the 00:00:06.629 --> 00:00:10.369 Trump administration is scaling back animal experimentation 00:00:10.369 --> 00:00:13.949 across various levels of government, such as 00:00:13.949 --> 00:00:16.710 the National Institute of Health, the Environmental 00:00:16.710 --> 00:00:20.530 Protection Agency, and even the military, it 00:00:20.530 --> 00:00:24.429 is time to put to rest this idea that conservatives 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:29.059 do not care about animals or have no place in 00:00:29.059 --> 00:00:33.240 the animal protection movement. I believe that 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.920 anyone willing to advance this cause and put 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:40.200 an end to the bloody business of animal exploitation, 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.600 indiscriminately of religion, culture, race, 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.759 ethnicity, or something as trivial as political 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:51.820 inclinations, should be welcomed and supported 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:55.299 by this movement. To discuss this topic and more, 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.240 we are lucky to have Liam Gray, someone who is 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.859 immersed in the world of politics. He is the 00:01:02.859 --> 00:01:06.519 founder of the Wilberforce Institute, which is 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:10.159 a public policy think tank, dedicated to advancing 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:13.500 the recognition of the inherent value and dignity 00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:18.200 of life, a market. free from corrupt and coercive 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:21.959 government intrusion and intellectually diverse 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:26.340 policies that benefit human and animal interests. 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:30.299 Visit the link in the episode notes to learn 00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:33.519 more about their great work and how to support 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:44.510 them. one of the biggest scandal of the animal 00:01:44.510 --> 00:01:48.750 rights movement which is the fact that the biggest 00:01:48.750 --> 00:01:52.670 progress that we have seen in the animal pro 00:01:52.670 --> 00:01:57.230 -animal cause came from a conservative government 00:01:57.230 --> 00:02:02.939 and I'm talking about the ban on animal testing. 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:05.799 So the National Institute of Health recently 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.539 announced an initiative to phase out animal testing. 00:02:09.939 --> 00:02:13.120 So they will now prioritize human -based research 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:17.319 methods, such as data science, artificial intelligence, 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:21.379 and tests on lab -grown organ -like structures 00:02:21.379 --> 00:02:24.860 called organoids. I don't know if you ever heard 00:02:24.860 --> 00:02:29.250 of that term before. The EPA has the ambition 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:33.530 of completely banning animal testing and following 00:02:33.530 --> 00:02:39.129 this is the Navy, the US Navy that has decided 00:02:39.129 --> 00:02:43.930 to end all research testing on cats and dogs. 00:02:44.610 --> 00:02:49.250 Now it is a scandal because if you ask your average 00:02:49.250 --> 00:02:52.289 animal rights activists what is their opinion 00:02:52.289 --> 00:02:56.889 of conservatives and of the Trump administration 00:02:56.889 --> 00:03:01.930 or any right -leaning person, they will have 00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:06.650 a very hostile reaction. And they believe, and 00:03:06.650 --> 00:03:10.990 I'm talking from, you know, experience of conversations 00:03:10.990 --> 00:03:15.349 with them, that there is no progress to be, no 00:03:15.349 --> 00:03:18.110 accomplishment from, you know, collaborating 00:03:18.110 --> 00:03:24.069 with conservatives. And obviously this is wrong. 00:03:24.729 --> 00:03:28.669 So, okay, can you explain what is happening here? 00:03:28.889 --> 00:03:32.409 How come, you know, one of the if not the biggest 00:03:32.409 --> 00:03:36.669 progress for the animal cause in recent memory 00:03:36.669 --> 00:03:41.509 came from a conservative government, from the 00:03:41.509 --> 00:03:45.330 Trump administration, and without, you know, 00:03:45.610 --> 00:03:49.990 your the traditional animal rights, you know, 00:03:50.189 --> 00:03:53.759 ways of putting pressure and, you know, this 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:58.659 was not the result of a nationwide campaign from 00:03:58.659 --> 00:04:04.060 PETA or of protests organized by, you know, name 00:04:04.060 --> 00:04:06.860 your favorite animal rights organization. So 00:04:06.860 --> 00:04:10.960 what is happening here? Sure. So and I think 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.180 you're right. The the impact this is having and 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:17.560 the trajectory it's on. I mean, I I don't think 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:19.579 it's overly optimistic to say that, you know, 00:04:19.579 --> 00:04:22.439 the end of animal experimentation uh... writ 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:25.319 large could be right on the horizon now uh... 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:27.959 obviously is still a lot more to go but but there 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.339 that the progress has been incredible i think 00:04:30.339 --> 00:04:34.220 uh... it's really important when we when we look 00:04:34.220 --> 00:04:36.279 at what happened here to look at the work of 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:38.980 uh... white coat waste which is uh... organization 00:04:38.980 --> 00:04:42.220 there uh... in uh... nonpartisan but they've 00:04:42.220 --> 00:04:45.379 worked uh... extensively with uh... conservatives 00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:48.120 and libertarians especially republican uh... 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:50.040 republicans in congress a lot of the ones that 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:54.529 i think uh... A lot of the much of the animal 00:04:54.529 --> 00:04:57.310 rights movement would be the least willing or 00:04:57.310 --> 00:05:01.430 least interested to work with, or they would 00:05:01.430 --> 00:05:04.149 at least think of them as maybe people that they 00:05:04.149 --> 00:05:06.110 wouldn't be worth their time to reach out to, 00:05:06.230 --> 00:05:11.050 like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who had went after 00:05:11.050 --> 00:05:13.290 Fauci on the NIH's Beagle experiments in front 00:05:13.290 --> 00:05:17.670 of Congress, or Nancy Mase, who's worked on a 00:05:17.670 --> 00:05:21.129 ton of these issues with white coat waste. I 00:05:21.129 --> 00:05:24.730 what white coat did with these with uh with this 00:05:24.730 --> 00:05:29.250 so i'll back up white coat is um entirely focused 00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:32.509 on um government funded animal experimentation 00:05:32.509 --> 00:05:35.029 that that is the whole the the the entire scope 00:05:35.029 --> 00:05:38.129 of what they work on and uh and they talked about 00:05:38.129 --> 00:05:40.370 this not only from the cruelty aspect which they 00:05:40.370 --> 00:05:44.189 they never shy away from talking about uh the 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:46.170 cruelty in these experiments, but they also talk 00:05:46.170 --> 00:05:51.370 about the taxpayer waste, the excessive spending 00:05:51.370 --> 00:05:53.230 that we're doing on these programs, the absurdity 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:56.110 of most of these experiments. My inclination, 00:05:56.189 --> 00:05:59.410 this is a sort of anecdotal thing, but I don't 00:05:59.410 --> 00:06:01.069 necessarily have some stats behind this, but 00:06:01.069 --> 00:06:02.970 I think what you have a lot of with a lot of 00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:05.920 these... That these kinds of experimentation 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.060 programs is you know if you've worked in any 00:06:08.060 --> 00:06:10.120 kind of especially government organization but 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:12.519 also big corporations do the same thing and you're 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:14.399 coming to the end of the fiscal quarter and you 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.420 and You you know realize that you're not gonna 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:19.100 get the budget you got last year unless you spend 00:06:19.100 --> 00:06:20.939 some more money So they go and then that's that's 00:06:20.939 --> 00:06:22.459 how you know when I was in the army we ended 00:06:22.459 --> 00:06:24.720 up spending Yeah, excessive amounts of money 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:26.699 on things like staplers just to make sure that 00:06:26.699 --> 00:06:28.240 we don't we get the same money We did last year, 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:30.800 right? Think you have the same thing going on 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:32.819 with these experimentations or experiments in 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:34.860 a lot of times where it's they they have these 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:39.279 research projects that you know routinely make 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.339 Senator rent Rand Paul's Festus Festivus report 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:45.319 where it just highlights You know absurd spending 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.540 that the government's doing every year The lion's 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:50.800 share that comes from what white coat research 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:52.720 and it's always these ridiculous experiments 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:56.399 like the yeah Again, the left tried to say this 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:58.959 one wasn't real, but it's been proven real, the 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:01.139 transgender mice experiments where they were 00:07:01.139 --> 00:07:04.579 doing transgender operations on mice. Not only 00:07:04.579 --> 00:07:08.019 is it excessively cruel, it's ridiculous. Why 00:07:08.019 --> 00:07:14.879 are we doing this? If you take that success and 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:17.720 you look at what they've done there and you extrapolate 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:22.360 that, to the other areas where animals are being 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.279 harmed, especially at the hands of the government 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:27.379 or with our tax dollars. The most obvious of 00:07:27.379 --> 00:07:30.319 those being factory farming. I think it gives 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:32.220 you a good roadmap on how we can actually make 00:07:32.220 --> 00:07:34.560 some progress here. And that's what with Wilberforce 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.740 Institute, what we're trying to do. I want to 00:07:36.740 --> 00:07:40.800 get back to this perception of conservatives 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:45.240 as being the enemy. And I want to give a concrete 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:50.610 example of that. So after the election, I made 00:07:50.610 --> 00:07:54.670 an episode called make animal rights bipartisan 00:07:54.670 --> 00:07:59.970 again. And I shared that on the vegan subreddit 00:07:59.970 --> 00:08:04.750 and I got demolished. So let me read some of 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:09.990 the comments I got from that podcast. We can't 00:08:09.990 --> 00:08:12.250 get the conservatives to care about starving 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:15.449 humans. So I don't know why they'd care about 00:08:15.449 --> 00:08:18.430 non -humans. conservatives don't give a shit 00:08:18.430 --> 00:08:21.329 about animal rights conservatives don't give 00:08:21.329 --> 00:08:24.610 a shit about human rights then there was someone 00:08:24.610 --> 00:08:29.879 who commented vegan conservatives here and Someone 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:32.820 responded trying to phrase this in a way that 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:35.440 isn't a loaded question, but do you feel like 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.980 there isn't there? There's any inconsistencies 00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:42.320 between veganism and any of your political views 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.919 And then following that you mean you're a plant 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.340 -based conservative Explain yourself. I want 00:08:49.340 --> 00:08:51.759 to see fewer chickens and more Mexican children 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:58.549 in cages and I could go on and on and on Why 00:08:58.549 --> 00:09:03.289 is there this antagonism towards conservatives? 00:09:04.529 --> 00:09:07.070 Yeah, you know, I think I think it has to do 00:09:07.070 --> 00:09:11.970 with the general the general sort of Yeah tribalism 00:09:11.970 --> 00:09:13.649 and teams thing that we've got and especially 00:09:13.649 --> 00:09:16.169 in the states I don't know. I don't know what 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:17.929 it looks like elsewhere in the world exactly 00:09:17.929 --> 00:09:21.929 but you know, we've because we have the Two -party 00:09:21.929 --> 00:09:23.429 system and it's very entrenched in these two 00:09:23.429 --> 00:09:27.240 teams you anything that gets Coated as one side 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:29.740 or the other gets bashed if you have any kind 00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:32.100 of car crossover, which is obviously a really 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:35.080 Unproductive thing for your your normal non deep 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:38.740 state citizen, right? Um, but it's it's interesting 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:40.259 because it's it's something you know when you 00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:43.799 look at um Yeah, depending on what what stats 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:45.620 you want to you want to use I think in that in 00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:47.679 that episode you're talking about I believe you 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:49.799 referenced the uh, the phonolytic study But there's 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:51.600 a number of these where I mean any any study 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:54.159 you point to is going to show most people Yes, 00:09:54.179 --> 00:09:57.940 sincerely and have have sincere heartfelt Care 00:09:57.940 --> 00:09:59.960 for animals most people love animals. Most people 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:02.080 hate factory farming. I would argue I don't think 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:05.279 anybody There's anybody out there really who 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.080 that isn't paid to like factory farming that 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.320 actually likes factory farming, you know, I but 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.700 But what even though we have that it's still 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:17.700 even though those are the general perceptions 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:20.929 everyone has The factory farming is growing every 00:10:20.929 --> 00:10:23.289 single year, you know, and I think a lot of that 00:10:23.289 --> 00:10:24.929 has to do with exactly what you're talking about 00:10:24.929 --> 00:10:28.250 here where it's We're so entrenched and they've 00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:30.509 this this, you know It keeps conservatives away 00:10:30.509 --> 00:10:33.129 from the animal issue to to have that kind of 00:10:33.129 --> 00:10:35.029 response when they try to go into animal issues, 00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:37.789 right? and it's sort of the reciprocal thing 00:10:37.789 --> 00:10:39.710 there's there's it's on, you know both ends of 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:44.970 it, but But yeah, I think It's it's certainly 00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:47.549 hurting the the progress and what you know what 00:10:47.549 --> 00:10:50.049 we can actually hope to attain for animals when 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:54.549 we're when you know You have this artificial 00:10:54.549 --> 00:10:56.350 political divide that doesn't really you know 00:10:56.350 --> 00:10:57.730 actually make any sense when it comes down to 00:10:57.730 --> 00:11:00.429 it What does my my view? What are my views on 00:11:00.429 --> 00:11:02.330 tax policy really have to do with my views on 00:11:02.330 --> 00:11:07.289 animals, right? And also that that sort of you 00:11:07.289 --> 00:11:11.169 know, the those kinds of pejorative understandings 00:11:11.169 --> 00:11:13.919 of what your opposition believes like Yeah, because 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:16.360 I voted for Trump doesn't mean I want to see 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:19.620 What was the yeah Hispanic kids in cages or whatever 00:11:19.620 --> 00:11:21.379 that that one quote was, you know that kind of 00:11:21.379 --> 00:11:23.440 thing. It's like that's that's not that's not 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:25.620 actually what I voted for anymore than you know, 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:29.899 I mean look it was Biden that went to the to 00:11:29.899 --> 00:11:32.419 the Supreme Court with you know alongside Smithfield 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:36.200 and and Vilsack is his big dairy lobbyist head 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:38.639 of the USDA and and you know tried to push the 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:40.139 eats act through the Supreme Court and it was 00:11:40.139 --> 00:11:43.090 Trump's appointees that that ruled against it, 00:11:43.090 --> 00:11:45.669 right? So, you know, that doesn't mean I'm going 00:11:45.669 --> 00:11:47.870 to, you know, I'm not now going to say every 00:11:47.870 --> 00:11:50.009 single Democrat out there, everyone who voted 00:11:50.009 --> 00:11:53.789 for Biden is a proponent of factory farming or, 00:11:53.789 --> 00:11:58.110 you know, is anti Prop 12 or wants to federalize, 00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:00.730 you know, like wants to stop Prop 12 from a federal 00:12:00.730 --> 00:12:03.970 level. You know, that's obviously not a, yeah, 00:12:03.970 --> 00:12:06.169 that would be a leap for me to say that, right? 00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:09.149 But I don't think people are necessarily, you 00:12:09.149 --> 00:12:12.620 know, accepting that kind of nuance. Let me add 00:12:12.620 --> 00:12:16.000 a layer of complication to this whole story. 00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:19.840 I learned from preparing for this conversation 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.100 that during the first Trump administration, they 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:30.139 wanted to ban up to 30 % of animal experimentations 00:12:30.139 --> 00:12:35.440 with the EPA. And they wanted to accomplish that 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:40.700 goal for the year 2025. But when the Biden administration 00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:46.580 came into power, they stopped that. Now, there 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:49.820 is also the fact that during the electoral campaign, 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:59.720 when Tim Walz, I think, the VP with Kamala was 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:04.809 presented as a candidate, the first promotional 00:13:04.809 --> 00:13:08.450 video that announced his name and his you know 00:13:08.450 --> 00:13:11.549 presence on the political scene we saw him in 00:13:11.549 --> 00:13:16.769 that video in a dairy farm and you know he he 00:13:16.769 --> 00:13:21.149 worked hard to build that character of hey I'm 00:13:21.149 --> 00:13:24.629 the hunting guy I'm the guy who cares about dairy 00:13:24.629 --> 00:13:32.110 farmers and and this felt like the candidate 00:13:32.110 --> 00:13:36.009 you would not want to vote for as a vegan or 00:13:36.009 --> 00:13:41.470 someone who cares about animals. So why do most 00:13:41.470 --> 00:13:45.490 vegans and animal rights activists think of the 00:13:45.490 --> 00:13:50.830 liberal platform and liberal party as the most 00:13:50.830 --> 00:13:55.590 pro -animal party when there is evidence that 00:13:55.590 --> 00:13:58.460 they don't care about animals? Yeah, and that's 00:13:58.460 --> 00:14:00.960 that's what I can't answer exactly why why they 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.340 would think it right, but but you're right I 00:14:03.340 --> 00:14:05.460 then that that whole campaign it makes me think 00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:09.240 of the the Tim Walls is the big I think that 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.440 there's something like a overcorrection on This 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:14.820 perception of like the the masculinity idea right 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:17.720 there. There's like this idea that oh, they're 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:19.580 voting for Trump because I don't know because 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:22.899 they think he can beat him in a in a an arm wrestling 00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:26.340 match or something, but It was it's it's a very 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:29.980 it's a very silly idea to begin with But I think 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:32.259 you you know, you can see that elsewhere where 00:14:32.259 --> 00:14:35.320 there's that I haven't followed this guy at all 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.220 I really honestly don't know too much about him 00:14:37.220 --> 00:14:40.039 but the Hassan piker who they're kind of marketing 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:42.639 is like the Joe Rogan of the left, right? Which 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:45.179 is it's funny in and of itself because it's he's 00:14:45.179 --> 00:14:48.370 that's a guy. Yes You can make a case that the 00:14:48.370 --> 00:14:50.169 Joe Rogan of the left is Joe Rogan, but that's 00:14:50.169 --> 00:14:54.230 a whole other thing. But it's funny, my understanding 00:14:54.230 --> 00:14:57.470 is this guy is a big, he's always eating chickens. 00:14:58.429 --> 00:15:00.690 It's a thing for him where he's like, and I guess 00:15:00.690 --> 00:15:03.889 it's kind of pitched this manly, masculine kind 00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:07.149 of thing. But when you compare that to the person 00:15:07.149 --> 00:15:09.610 they're talking about, Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan's 00:15:09.610 --> 00:15:11.409 a mediator for sure, and he's a hunter, but he 00:15:11.409 --> 00:15:15.409 also, he's talked extensively on his show about 00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:19.200 About yeah, how horrible factory farming is how 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:23.320 he's only going to eat the yeah Eat from animals 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.100 that he kills himself and like he won't eat the 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:27.899 factory farming because of the cruelty and you 00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:31.500 know Is that a is that from a vegan perspective 00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:34.360 ideal? No, but it's you know directionally exactly 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:36.259 where you know way better than the southern guy 00:15:36.259 --> 00:15:37.740 who's eating mass -produced chicken every day 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:40.340 and Advertising and making it into this manly 00:15:40.340 --> 00:15:42.879 thing and that's coming from the left. So it's 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:44.299 interesting I don't know where that perception 00:15:45.339 --> 00:15:48.600 Where it comes from? You know the namesake of 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.919 our organization William Wilberforce was it was 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:53.840 a Christian conservative performer who you know 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:56.779 helped was largely credited with ending the slave 00:15:56.779 --> 00:16:01.299 trade and in the in England, but he also founded 00:16:01.299 --> 00:16:04.399 the The RSPCA it was the the first the edibles 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:06.220 the first animal welfare organization in the 00:16:06.220 --> 00:16:09.120 world that came from you know a conservative 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.710 so it's not like a You know, like there's no 00:16:12.710 --> 00:16:14.750 history of this. I mean you've talked about Matthew 00:16:14.750 --> 00:16:17.970 Scully on my on your in other episodes and Matthew 00:16:17.970 --> 00:16:21.009 Scully is a Who you know for any listen to you 00:16:21.009 --> 00:16:23.809 haven't caught that he's a You know, it was a 00:16:23.809 --> 00:16:26.049 presidential speechwriter Republican speechwriter 00:16:26.049 --> 00:16:29.190 Who wrote a book called Dominion, which is really? 00:16:30.149 --> 00:16:32.250 I think I think has brought a lot of conservatives 00:16:32.250 --> 00:16:36.350 Yeah, a lot of the conservatives who? Stopped 00:16:36.350 --> 00:16:38.450 eating animals. I think points to that book but 00:16:38.450 --> 00:16:39.769 the interesting interesting thing about that 00:16:39.769 --> 00:16:41.610 book is it's not really a it's not a conservative 00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:43.850 case It's for for not eating animals. It's it's 00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:46.129 a human case for not eating. You know, it's uh 00:16:46.129 --> 00:16:48.629 So we're coming to these things from the same 00:16:48.629 --> 00:16:50.690 reasons. We have the same concerns for animals 00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:56.090 I think that the disparity is almost a Sort of 00:16:56.090 --> 00:16:57.909 just I think more than anything else is kind 00:16:57.909 --> 00:16:59.750 of goes back to the sort of the sort of tribal 00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:02.429 thing and the The team's thing that we have going 00:17:02.429 --> 00:17:04.250 on But that makes sense. There's a perception 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:07.529 where you're not, you know, where you're not 00:17:07.529 --> 00:17:09.210 if you're if you're of the right, you're not 00:17:09.210 --> 00:17:11.410 supposed to be a part of these movements of the 00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:12.890 animal movement and the animal movement, you 00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:14.369 know, does everything they can to fulfill that 00:17:14.369 --> 00:17:17.690 and kind of, you know, make make it seem like 00:17:17.690 --> 00:17:19.609 unfriendly territory, you know, as you pointed 00:17:19.609 --> 00:17:21.650 out with those those comments and things like 00:17:21.650 --> 00:17:25.609 that. Yes, definitely. And there's this also 00:17:25.609 --> 00:17:30.029 this whole thing of tying the pro animal movement 00:17:30.029 --> 00:17:36.750 with. a more left -wing ideology. So, for instance, 00:17:37.250 --> 00:17:41.230 talking about veganism as an anti -capitalism 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:45.130 movement. Like here. I mean, the first time I 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:48.009 heard that, I was thinking, what? I mean, I'm 00:17:48.009 --> 00:17:50.750 here for, you know, liberating animals and stopping 00:17:50.750 --> 00:17:53.650 animal expectation. Why are we talking about, 00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:57.390 you know, capitalism and, and your socialism 00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:01.049 and no, this is not what I subscribe for. And 00:18:01.049 --> 00:18:05.029 there's also this aversion towards religion. 00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:10.740 I believe that, you know, betting on the religious 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:16.460 argument for veganism or for animals is how you 00:18:16.460 --> 00:18:18.960 connect with people, how you make real lasting 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:25.759 change, how you establish this doctrine in the 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:29.299 life of people. But there is this aversion, you 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:35.119 know, and this perception that you cannot collaborate 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:39.309 with religious people to make change. um and 00:18:39.309 --> 00:18:43.410 religion is somewhat responsible for um animal 00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:47.789 exploitation which you know yeah historically 00:18:47.789 --> 00:18:52.269 you could make that point you know but this this 00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:54.569 is not like sacrifices things like that is that 00:18:54.569 --> 00:18:57.529 the argument there or what's what's the Well, 00:18:57.589 --> 00:19:00.730 for instance, you know, anthropocentrism, the 00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:04.410 fact that, you know, everything is for humans, 00:19:04.549 --> 00:19:07.009 that we are, we have dominion over everything. 00:19:07.009 --> 00:19:10.789 And so we can do whatever we want. But I feel 00:19:10.789 --> 00:19:13.190 like, you know, it doesn't reflect the current 00:19:13.190 --> 00:19:18.390 reality of, you know, religious discourse. So 00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:22.190 what do you make of that? So, well, I'll start 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:23.509 with the religion one, because that's, that's 00:19:23.509 --> 00:19:27.130 interesting. And I would, I find that The dominion 00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:29.450 argument and that characterization of it really 00:19:29.450 --> 00:19:31.690 funny because it's not That doesn't make any 00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:33.109 sense to me. I mean if you think about it in 00:19:33.109 --> 00:19:36.589 a very uh, Just yeah simplistic sense like like 00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:38.690 let's let's say we're you know If i'm if I have 00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:41.250 dominion over a people right if I have dominion 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:43.769 over some yeah Some group of people does that 00:19:43.769 --> 00:19:45.789 mean that I can then eat my subjects or I can 00:19:45.789 --> 00:19:48.170 treat them however I you know, whatever whatever 00:19:48.170 --> 00:19:50.670 cruel in any name ways. I mean that's pretty 00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:53.730 counter to any any uh any doctrinal understanding 00:19:53.730 --> 00:19:57.440 of leadership or uh rulers rulership or anything 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.220 to this line, so I I've always found that kind 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:04.420 of I actually think by and large and To you to 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:05.599 your point. I think you're making the beginning 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.779 of that too You know, I think it's really working 00:20:08.779 --> 00:20:10.619 with the faith communities. I think a lot of 00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:14.400 the I Think when you apply religious values from 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.119 really any faith to the animal idea I think that's 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:18.579 really where you're gonna see a lot of this movement. 00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:23.579 I think there's I mean It's it's really it's 00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:27.000 really hard. I think to make a a strong religious 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.059 case for treating animals the way that we do 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:32.980 on the political part of it and that and that 00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:35.059 sort of the anti -capitalist thing and that that 00:20:35.059 --> 00:20:37.000 whole sense that you alluded to at the beginning 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.400 of that That's another interesting one because 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:41.700 I think I think it's part of the problem to what 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:44.160 part of why we're not making Why why the animal 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:45.640 movement isn't making the progress that we'd 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.799 like to see it make is that you know, there there's 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.259 been a My opinion is there's the shift on the 00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:54.880 left where you've had this I mean, it's always 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.440 been you know, traditionally the the big the 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:00.099 big government party the big government idea 00:21:00.099 --> 00:21:03.559 but but there used to be a Almost more anti -establishment 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.700 sense. I think it's kind of gone away and you 00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:08.859 sort of leaned into this To you know this trust 00:21:08.859 --> 00:21:10.380 of the government idea, which I think would have 00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:12.160 been really foreign to a lot of people of the 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.380 left You know a few decades ago or even less 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:18.460 and that's coupled with also I you know like 00:21:18.460 --> 00:21:22.559 a It's a more there's been more corporate distrust 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.940 on the right Then maybe even on the left lately 00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:29.700 with where you have, you know Republicans especially 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.240 mega Republicans and getting very distrustful 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:33.839 of things like big pharma and big, you know, 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.799 that's kind of the maha movement And big big 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:43.079 tech in those areas where I think that's that's 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:47.500 something Yeah, if the the complaints the critiques 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:50.319 they're making there Really apply to the sort 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:53.759 of big ag infrastructure and the and these the 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.759 ways in which government is really becoming becoming 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.900 or is one of the or I would say government is 00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:02.980 or At least one of the biggest perpetrators again 00:22:02.980 --> 00:22:05.759 animal suffering animal suffering in the world. 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.420 I mean when you look at You know the USDA and 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.619 the way the ways in which it bolsters Yeah, big 00:22:13.619 --> 00:22:17.700 ag way bolsters industrial farm industrial meat 00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:20.119 production uh... things like you have a beer 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.160 of land management and the worst roundups in 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.140 the uh... or wildlife services the kind of rampant 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:26.539 killing of animals out there and i'm kind of 00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:27.759 rattling through things we can talk about an 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.359 even more depth you'd like but but i uh... it's 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:34.059 interesting i think because your because we're 00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:37.180 uh... are in these political uh... paradigms 00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:41.119 to it because that the leftist is when when you 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:42.819 have those things like that making this an anti 00:22:42.819 --> 00:22:44.740 -capitalist movement or that kind of deal i think 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:47.079 you're kind of allowing for the government to 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:50.759 continue to grow and inflict this harm on animals 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:52.119 and you're sort of giving them a free pass to 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.400 do it. Let me get back quickly to that outstanding 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:04.339 news of this ban on animal experimentation. I 00:23:04.339 --> 00:23:08.839 want to just highlight how incredible and impactful 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.900 this decision from the Trump administration is. 00:23:14.859 --> 00:23:19.779 he has, you know, liberated millions of sentient 00:23:19.779 --> 00:23:24.279 creatures from the worst kind of suffering out 00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:26.940 there, from the worst kind of animal exploitation. 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:34.299 And I feel like if this was coming from a left 00:23:34.299 --> 00:23:39.200 -wing government, if this was the result of some, 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.660 you know, PETA campaign or your traditional animal 00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:49.039 rights strain, um, uh, or organization, um, we 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.920 would have, uh, been witnessing, you know, uh, 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:57.500 week after week of celebration, you know, on 00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:03.839 social media awards, speeches, um, like the, 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.160 the, that accomplishment would have been, you 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:15.619 know, celebrated for months yet. This has been 00:24:15.619 --> 00:24:20.259 under the radar of most vegans. This went under 00:24:20.259 --> 00:24:23.420 the radar of most people who care about animals, 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:28.359 as if it was something minor. And the few animal 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:33.099 rights activists I've seen celebrating this accomplishment 00:24:33.099 --> 00:24:39.119 from the Trump administration always do it with 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:44.160 a few comments on, hey, this is great and they're 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:49.019 doing a good job, but I'm against their immigration 00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:51.640 policy and I'm against this and that. And I think 00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:55.599 Trump is really, you know, an evil and which, 00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:58.960 which makes everything confusing. Like how is 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.220 he responsible of this great accomplishment when 00:25:02.220 --> 00:25:05.839 he's so evil? Like, um, what are you talking 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.660 about exactly, but it's a way to protect themselves 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:12.259 against, you know, any perception of, uh, being 00:25:12.259 --> 00:25:16.839 right leaning for celebrating this progress. 00:25:17.259 --> 00:25:21.079 Uh, what do you make of that? Yeah. Well, um, 00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:24.240 and again, I think you're, you're, I think there's, 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:27.460 it's definitely a symptom of sort of the, the 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:29.059 situation we found ourselves in with the kind 00:25:29.059 --> 00:25:31.259 of the two party system in this whole, this whole 00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:33.859 deal where you're sort of afraid to step out 00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:37.549 of the, uh, Yeah, the demagoguery that you're 00:25:37.549 --> 00:25:41.109 attached to right? But I but yeah, no, you're 00:25:41.109 --> 00:25:43.049 absolutely right If this was a if this was the 00:25:43.049 --> 00:25:45.490 Biden administration and they were yeah ending 00:25:45.490 --> 00:25:48.150 animal experimentation in you know, multiple 00:25:48.150 --> 00:25:52.069 You know very extremely large departments within 00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:54.589 the executive branch if they were you know If 00:25:54.589 --> 00:25:56.569 Biden was taking that kind of action, it would 00:25:56.569 --> 00:25:57.950 have been lauded you'd be hearing about it all 00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:01.529 over the you know across Yeah, and all the all 00:26:01.529 --> 00:26:04.720 the you know through all the vegan Organizations 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.980 and all the animal movement, uh, you know podcasts 00:26:06.980 --> 00:26:08.400 and everything else And I don't think you really 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.380 are where you are hearing about it. Interestingly 00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.319 enough is on is through uh, the right wing, you 00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:16.319 know, uh media outlets, right like uh, you know, 00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.539 there's the the your your fox news is your uh 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:22.599 daily callers your you know, um, Uh washington 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:24.380 examiners washington all those kinds of outlets 00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:26.619 are talking about these issues because of the 00:26:26.619 --> 00:26:28.019 framing and because of the people attached to 00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:31.589 it now there's some of of course, they have their 00:26:31.589 --> 00:26:33.289 biases and that's part of why they're able to 00:26:33.289 --> 00:26:38.569 talk about these things in such a complimentary 00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:41.170 way. And who knows how they would be responding 00:26:41.170 --> 00:26:43.410 to it if the inverse was true, right? If it was 00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:47.309 Biden who'd done this. But I think you're right 00:26:47.309 --> 00:26:49.569 to point that out and I appreciate that you do. 00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:54.809 It's interesting. I really don't think you can 00:26:54.809 --> 00:26:57.900 point to And this gets to what you're saying 00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:59.839 about how big it really is. I don't think you 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:01.799 can point to another success in the animal movement 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.700 right now that is really comparable to what's 00:27:04.700 --> 00:27:08.500 going on there. I think it's really the biggest 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:10.220 strides we've made in any area has probably been 00:27:10.220 --> 00:27:14.000 there. And you're only really hearing about it 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.559 in conservative circles. So what does that tell 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:20.920 you? Yeah, I feel like I'm in a parallel universe. 00:27:22.180 --> 00:27:26.490 I mean, this is crazy. But I mean, I think it 00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:29.809 makes the case right that again. We're you know 00:27:29.809 --> 00:27:31.890 Just because people voted for trump doesn't mean 00:27:31.890 --> 00:27:35.509 we're you know, we're Some kind of you know of 00:27:35.509 --> 00:27:37.789 horned monsters that are or you know are out 00:27:37.789 --> 00:27:39.289 for evil. It's just a different You know, we 00:27:39.289 --> 00:27:41.990 have different It's this novel concept that we 00:27:41.990 --> 00:27:47.109 have different views and that's okay But yeah, 00:27:47.109 --> 00:27:50.690 I think it's it's it's very interesting and and 00:27:50.690 --> 00:27:53.839 i'm interested to see Yeah, so really the work 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:55.640 that we're doing with the over force institute 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:59.420 is really trying to Make that movement make yeah 00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:02.019 that show that that concern from the animals 00:28:02.019 --> 00:28:04.059 exists on the right because I believe really 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:06.579 believe it does already And coalesce that into 00:28:06.579 --> 00:28:08.680 a movement that is tangible and that we can really 00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:10.559 you know You can point to so that so that this 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.180 is not uh You know a couple years down the road 00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:14.880 when this is when we're talking about these kinds 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.960 of things again It's uh, it's not so unfathomable 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.819 to anybody that that or is that uh that Yeah, 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:26.380 that the right is spearheading. Yeah. X animal 00:28:26.380 --> 00:28:30.940 issue. Yeah. When I learned about your organization, 00:28:31.220 --> 00:28:35.559 I was so happy. You don't even know. I mean, 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:41.220 I felt like being alone, like commenting on this 00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:45.740 issue, this perceived issue. And I kept thinking, 00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:49.500 you know, if only there was a more right leading 00:28:49.789 --> 00:28:53.690 or at least non -partisan organization that is 00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:57.230 interested and has the ambition of mobilizing 00:28:57.230 --> 00:29:00.769 everyone on the political spectrum to make changes, 00:29:01.150 --> 00:29:04.049 lasting changes, and who are not scared to talk 00:29:04.049 --> 00:29:09.910 to conservatives. And to learn that you have 00:29:09.910 --> 00:29:12.250 created that organization, you know, just made 00:29:12.250 --> 00:29:20.539 me so happy. So yeah, thank you for that. and 00:29:20.539 --> 00:29:26.480 you know it's is this should we perceive it you 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.119 know the you talked about this being the the 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.559 greatest success of the pro -animal movement 00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:37.079 i agree with that but does it mean that this 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:42.400 animal rights movement right now in this uh incarnation 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:47.079 is dysfunctional really is this you know is this 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:52.839 success a sign that it has failed at the task 00:29:52.839 --> 00:30:01.880 of advancing the animal interests. And I look 00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:06.059 at, before this conversation, I looked at some 00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:11.599 coverage of political situation regarding animal 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:18.359 rights. And what was highlighted was bans. from 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:23.700 different US states on lab -grown meat, or as 00:30:23.700 --> 00:30:26.480 they like to call it, cultivated meat or clean 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:31.160 meat. And they were picking on that, talking 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:34.539 about how conservative states are so evil for 00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:40.980 banning this industry. And I feel like you're 00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:45.279 missing the point. What are you doing, like trying 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:49.460 to advance the interest of Corporations that 00:30:49.460 --> 00:30:53.579 want to play dr. Frankenstein So I don't think 00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:55.640 that the the movement has failed but I think 00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:58.079 it needs to evolve and I think it needs to start 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:02.519 shifting its perspective and I think one of the 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:04.599 major ways for one of the main things for that 00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:08.240 is You know, it's not that every organization 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.339 needs to start adopting conservative messaging 00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:13.640 or become you know conservative organizations 00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.319 or appeal to conservatives, but They what they 00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.400 should do is as groups like yeah, like the Wilberforce 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:21.319 Institute come up and groups like white coat 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.039 waste that already exist and these other organizations 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:25.140 that that are are good at talking to the right 00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:28.339 and and Are involved with the political, right? 00:31:28.660 --> 00:31:32.400 Yeah, I think they need to understand that You 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:33.980 know when we're mission and aligned on the cause 00:31:33.980 --> 00:31:37.920 for ending animal suffering We are allies. We're 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.480 not you know opponents. We're not yeah, and we 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.650 you shouldn't be couching You know your your 00:31:44.650 --> 00:31:46.150 partnerships with us and that kind of thing. 00:31:46.269 --> 00:31:50.289 I think when you look at You know if you look 00:31:50.289 --> 00:31:53.309 at the left This actually kind of goes to some 00:31:53.309 --> 00:31:55.730 of those comments you read off, right? You can 00:31:55.730 --> 00:31:58.230 tell in the tone of some of them there. There's 00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:00.809 this I think there's this idea where maybe maybe 00:32:00.809 --> 00:32:02.890 the left maybe the Democratic Party Maybe maybe 00:32:02.890 --> 00:32:05.450 your average Democrat voter is more Generally 00:32:05.450 --> 00:32:07.849 sympathetic to the animal movement, right? Because 00:32:07.849 --> 00:32:10.009 they understand that the animal movement is generally 00:32:10.009 --> 00:32:12.829 speaking associated with the left But they're 00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:14.769 always going, they always look at it. I think 00:32:14.769 --> 00:32:16.509 there's a perception at least that they always 00:32:16.509 --> 00:32:20.029 look at it as secondary issues or like, yeah, 00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:22.289 yeah, yeah, we'll deal with your issues when 00:32:22.289 --> 00:32:24.769 we get to it. And yeah, these whatever social 00:32:24.769 --> 00:32:28.170 justice warrior issues are the front, are the 00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:29.930 primary issues. And these are the ones we need 00:32:29.930 --> 00:32:32.670 to focus on. Whereas we're over here working 00:32:32.670 --> 00:32:36.910 on animal issues and we're directly involved 00:32:36.910 --> 00:32:38.970 in actually trying to move the ball forward for 00:32:38.970 --> 00:32:41.299 animals. Those are your allies on these it's 00:32:41.299 --> 00:32:43.000 not it's not these other groups that are dismissive 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:47.380 of the issues that you care about um I you know, 00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:49.119 and and we're able to talk about these things 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:53.200 in ways that I think that uh Would be disingenuous 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.039 coming from a lot of the groups on the left You 00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:58.660 brought up the the the cultivated meat bands, 00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.359 which i'm actually um, I wasn't I wasn't sure 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:04.980 if you yeah, you got the uh The the frankenstein 00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:07.660 comments there and I you know, i'm actually i'm 00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:10.259 i'm Uh, you know, and I think everybody at Wilberforce 00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:13.460 is for, for, uh, cultivated meat and then, and 00:33:13.460 --> 00:33:15.299 moving that technology forward. And we're, um, 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.900 but, you know, when we talk about, uh, when we 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:20.599 talk about these bands, I mean, we're able to 00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:22.000 talk about this from a free market perspective, 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.140 which is where we've always existed, where we've 00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:25.819 always, yeah, how we talk about just about every 00:33:25.819 --> 00:33:28.559 issue, you know, it's, it is, and it is kind 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.359 of to your point, it's kind of, uh, it's disingenuous 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.859 for the, you know, these groups to come around 00:33:33.859 --> 00:33:38.069 and say, uh, they oppose these bands. And then 00:33:38.069 --> 00:33:39.809 they're also anti -capitalist organizations, 00:33:39.809 --> 00:33:45.289 right? Like the biggest argument to oppose these 00:33:45.289 --> 00:33:49.210 bans is that if you allow for the free market, 00:33:49.349 --> 00:33:51.410 if you allow for people to get consumers to make 00:33:51.410 --> 00:33:54.170 their choices, then you're not banning these 00:33:54.170 --> 00:33:56.430 choices. You're not banning my option as a consumer 00:33:56.430 --> 00:34:04.150 to try a new product that is a cruelty -free 00:34:04.150 --> 00:34:11.460 version of me, right? That's simply just a free 00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:13.900 market argument. And so I think it's actually 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:17.699 a good argument for why it's important to have 00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:19.159 our kinds of voices here, because we're the ones 00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:23.000 that can make that case. Yeah, I'm not against 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.500 cultivating meat in the sense that if it was 00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:31.619 available, I would definitely try it and purchase 00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:37.340 and add it to my consumption. But what I don't 00:34:37.340 --> 00:34:41.639 like is to see this movement, this social movement 00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:48.960 sending all of its money, resources to this industry. 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:52.599 It's like, okay, you're a corporation, you want 00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:57.139 to offer cultivated meat. Well, do it. I mean, 00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:03.579 why put the clothes of a social movement or... 00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:06.159 just you want to make profits and you want to 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:09.280 offer a new product. Like, uh, of course it's 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:11.340 ethical and it's good to think about, you know, 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:14.239 the ethics of, um, you know, doing business, 00:35:14.900 --> 00:35:19.260 but you're not like a social movement. You're 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:21.860 not an activist movement. You're not part of 00:35:21.860 --> 00:35:26.019 that. Um, I think that if you look at most successful 00:35:26.019 --> 00:35:29.980 social movements, they were movements that were 00:35:29.980 --> 00:35:34.840 driven by religious convictions. That's one point 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:39.820 that were popular movements, non -partisan movements. 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:43.719 I think those are traits that, you know, they 00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.860 all share. They were not weird movements that, 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:51.599 you know, defended an industry or, yeah, shield 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:56.150 for corporations or... you know, investors, like 00:35:56.150 --> 00:35:59.690 it's, it's weird. Like I don't have any, I don't 00:35:59.690 --> 00:36:02.650 have money invested in this venture. So why, 00:36:02.809 --> 00:36:06.489 why should I be, you know, promoting it? Yeah. 00:36:07.469 --> 00:36:09.630 So that's interesting. That's an interesting 00:36:09.630 --> 00:36:13.050 perspective. I think of it, um, it's similar 00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:18.090 to, well, in some ways it's the, the, uh, the 00:36:18.090 --> 00:36:20.230 whole opposition to it is like that where, where 00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:22.769 you have, uh, in the industry that people will, 00:36:22.769 --> 00:36:26.250 you know, I'll say the big meat industry has 00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:27.630 done a really good job of painting themselves 00:36:27.630 --> 00:36:30.369 as like farmers right as this is that this is 00:36:30.369 --> 00:36:33.010 the pro farming thing and And so they've made 00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:35.929 it almost a moral stance to support them when 00:36:35.929 --> 00:36:37.989 what you're talking about is not farmers even 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:41.750 even small meat farmers as the as You know as 00:36:41.750 --> 00:36:43.909 traditionally understood, right? It's not yeah, 00:36:43.909 --> 00:36:45.730 you're talking about something entirely different 00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:50.510 And I do think you see more of that but it is 00:36:50.510 --> 00:36:52.190 interesting an interesting thing to see on the 00:36:52.190 --> 00:36:57.050 on the left in general this sort of Movement 00:36:57.050 --> 00:37:00.210 towards you know corporations and the kind of 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:01.730 the sort of pro -corporate stuff that's coming 00:37:01.730 --> 00:37:08.469 out. I don't know if you heard your From one 00:37:08.469 --> 00:37:11.369 of your your countrymen Neil Young's new song 00:37:11.369 --> 00:37:13.949 with the did you hear any of this? He has this 00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:17.730 song where it's it's uh singing to uh Bored and 00:37:17.730 --> 00:37:20.429 gm, you know, and it's it's a it's a really corny 00:37:20.429 --> 00:37:22.809 song It has some kind of dig in there about if 00:37:22.809 --> 00:37:25.110 you're a fascist by a tesla like it's it's you 00:37:25.110 --> 00:37:27.610 know But I was thinking it's it's the who would 00:37:27.610 --> 00:37:30.949 have thought Yeah, so like think it comparing 00:37:30.949 --> 00:37:33.210 them to neil young of the 60s and 70s. It's it's 00:37:33.210 --> 00:37:38.070 uh It's a wild thing to see that um I I think 00:37:38.070 --> 00:37:42.360 sometimes that's uh That's a lot of again where 00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.900 I think the the importance of getting Sort of 00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:47.599 the you know, the perspective we're bringing 00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.619 to this Involved is that we're really there's 00:37:51.619 --> 00:37:53.380 this been this kind of corporate movement that 00:37:53.380 --> 00:37:55.719 I think is actually Hurts the animal movement 00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:57.539 for that for the left to have kind of bought 00:37:57.539 --> 00:38:03.179 into that, you know and I think being you know 00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.940 giving an alternative to that is something that's 00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:07.039 gonna help move things forward as well, too We're 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.880 not you know Um, it's all ultimately special 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:11.559 interests that drive a lot of these conversations 00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:13.059 and that's that's the kind of thing we need to 00:38:13.059 --> 00:38:17.800 get away from for sure Yeah, and I I value consistency, 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:20.360 you know if you are anti -capitalist and you 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:24.039 oppose cultivated meat like I value that Your 00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:27.039 consistency at the very least you're not a hypocrite, 00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.900 you know in your thinking so Uh, yeah, there 00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:36.340 is that um, okay moving forward Do you know of 00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:41.380 any? new progress, new policies that the Trump 00:38:41.380 --> 00:38:46.659 administration will put in place that would benefit 00:38:46.659 --> 00:38:52.159 animals. The latest one was about the Navy. So 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:56.039 now we're talking about the military renouncing 00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:02.719 animal experimentations. So are you aware of 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:06.829 any more progress? So interesting you brought 00:39:06.829 --> 00:39:09.269 the military one. I have an article. I'm pushing 00:39:09.269 --> 00:39:11.750 out right now to try to get to get published 00:39:11.750 --> 00:39:15.710 that's on on on moving to the To the army and 00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:17.190 getting the army to do the same thing the Navy 00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:19.789 did and kind of taking this Go army beat Navy 00:39:19.789 --> 00:39:22.210 type stance, which I was I was in the army myself 00:39:22.210 --> 00:39:24.369 So it's hey, you know It's a it's a sort of point 00:39:24.369 --> 00:39:26.429 of pride to me that I want them to be the the 00:39:26.429 --> 00:39:30.889 last ones through the door on that but You know, 00:39:30.889 --> 00:39:32.710 I I don't know where there's a there's a number 00:39:32.710 --> 00:39:36.809 of bills that were We're hoping that move forward 00:39:36.809 --> 00:39:40.329 a lot of them deal with with animal experimentation. 00:39:42.389 --> 00:39:44.610 Yeah, hopefully that that continues throughout 00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:48.889 the. Throughout the the administration throughout 00:39:48.889 --> 00:39:50.530 the executive branch, we start seeing more and 00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:52.230 more of these departments that are because there 00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:53.590 still are departments that are conducting research 00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:56.190 or some of the ones that are still better. Yeah, 00:39:56.269 --> 00:39:58.210 that have kind of signed up to stop it that are 00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:01.780 still doing it in other ways or or their. Yeah, 00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:03.679 so there's a lot more work to do there and I 00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:05.280 think that obviously there's an appetite to do 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:10.699 it There's You know, I'd like to see that expand 00:40:10.699 --> 00:40:14.179 into some things like You know, the USDA has 00:40:14.179 --> 00:40:16.559 the agricultural research services, which is 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:20.480 sort of the research arm for It is effectively. 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:23.239 It's the de facto research department of the 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:25.000 big industrial farmers, right? And so they're 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:26.860 conducting cool cool experiments and they're 00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:30.829 doing so Solely to to make these the big factory 00:40:30.829 --> 00:40:34.889 farms Produce more right and it's not produce 00:40:34.889 --> 00:40:37.610 better. It's not improve animal welfare conditions. 00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:40.070 It's not improve the food quality It's solely 00:40:40.070 --> 00:40:45.429 to just crank out more and I and you know, there's 00:40:45.429 --> 00:40:48.650 the level of the You can you can say there's 00:40:48.650 --> 00:40:51.269 a free market argument where it's you know, we'll 00:40:51.269 --> 00:40:53.440 let them do it Fine, let's say we're doing that. 00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:56.360 But why are we paying for it? Why would our tax 00:40:56.360 --> 00:41:00.460 dollars go to funding this department? Why can't 00:41:00.460 --> 00:41:02.340 the biggest of these companies handle their own 00:41:02.340 --> 00:41:04.739 research? Why would we be doing it? So it doesn't 00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:09.420 really make sense from a free market level. So 00:41:09.420 --> 00:41:12.260 from just a taxpayer perspective at all, it's 00:41:12.260 --> 00:41:13.940 just rampant cronyism. So I'd like to see them 00:41:13.940 --> 00:41:16.360 kind of get there. I'd like to kind of hope that 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:20.059 Brooke Rollins, who is the ag secretary, can 00:41:20.059 --> 00:41:22.440 kind of pick up on these wins and maybe move 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.760 that direction as well. But yeah, outside of 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.320 that, you know, there's, I know there's a lot 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:29.860 that would like to see happen. I'm not sure where 00:41:29.860 --> 00:41:33.519 it's gonna go. What about the subsidies? You 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.300 know, the big ag subsidies? Do you think we'll 00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:41.400 see some of them being reduced or abolished? 00:41:42.170 --> 00:41:44.590 Hope so and that would be you mentioned before 00:41:44.590 --> 00:41:46.349 value and consistency and that would be the consistent 00:41:46.349 --> 00:41:49.269 approach I actually I don't know if you followed 00:41:49.269 --> 00:41:53.110 at all the the one big beautiful bill Act and 00:41:53.110 --> 00:41:55.789 the whole debate since doing there. It's another 00:41:55.789 --> 00:41:59.269 article I have out for placement right now on 00:41:59.269 --> 00:42:02.090 on that and how you know, there's the debate 00:42:02.090 --> 00:42:04.170 to be had for sure even within conservative libertarian 00:42:04.170 --> 00:42:08.510 circles about the wisdom of of putting a bunch 00:42:08.510 --> 00:42:11.349 of money You know a lot of raising the allotments 00:42:11.349 --> 00:42:13.849 and spending for the border and military and 00:42:13.849 --> 00:42:15.489 that kind of thing. I mean, there's different 00:42:15.489 --> 00:42:19.809 approaches But you know that in that thousand 00:42:19.809 --> 00:42:21.849 plus page bill There's you know, plenty of those 00:42:21.849 --> 00:42:23.630 pages that are just filled up with what I would 00:42:23.630 --> 00:42:26.670 call factory farm welfare And it's I mean, it's 00:42:26.670 --> 00:42:29.769 really it's it's big ag subsidies. It's uh, you 00:42:29.769 --> 00:42:33.550 know these Insurance kind of bailout policies 00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:36.090 that they've created too. So it's like there's 00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:40.159 one in there one provision that's uh for You 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:44.900 know theoretical unborn Cows that that aren't 00:42:44.900 --> 00:42:46.940 born that they pay that yeah make them identity 00:42:46.940 --> 00:42:48.840 identity payments for that and it's it's you 00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:51.000 know All kinds of crazy stuff and it represents 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.619 billions of dollars I think that you know when 00:42:54.619 --> 00:42:56.840 we if we're talking about this we're taking kind 00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:59.340 of the You know the Rand Paul approach of this 00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:01.380 where he said hey look I'm for these cuts, but 00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:04.110 the spending is just unacceptable You know, um 00:43:04.110 --> 00:43:06.090 and raising the you know, the the ceiling to 00:43:06.090 --> 00:43:09.329 five trillion is is crazy, right? Um, well one 00:43:09.329 --> 00:43:11.409 way where we you know the case I make in the 00:43:11.409 --> 00:43:13.809 article and what I would say in general is uh 00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:16.369 Is you know, why don't we look at this area as 00:43:16.369 --> 00:43:17.690 one of the places where we can start reducing 00:43:17.690 --> 00:43:19.630 that gigantic price tag? That's associated with 00:43:19.630 --> 00:43:23.829 this bill so I um You know haven't heard much 00:43:23.829 --> 00:43:26.809 about it hasn't seemed to be a top line issue 00:43:26.809 --> 00:43:28.829 which is another one of those uh, the magic tricks 00:43:28.829 --> 00:43:31.210 of the of the uh, the big ag special interest 00:43:31.210 --> 00:43:34.289 but uh But I would like to see, I think draining 00:43:34.289 --> 00:43:37.369 the big ag swamp is something that is very congruent 00:43:37.369 --> 00:43:39.670 with libertarian thought, with MAGA thought. 00:43:39.929 --> 00:43:41.710 And it's something that I hope that we can kind 00:43:41.710 --> 00:43:43.530 of, we can move that direction and start making 00:43:43.530 --> 00:43:45.889 some real strides there because it's just crazy. 00:43:46.110 --> 00:43:47.849 And it's the way it's a lot of what I'm talking 00:43:47.849 --> 00:43:50.590 about when I say, you know, it's really our government 00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:52.909 that is bolstering the factory farming world. 00:43:53.889 --> 00:43:59.739 It's strange because I think One year ago, I 00:43:59.739 --> 00:44:02.820 was having a conversation with Robert Griot. 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:10.579 And he's big into protesting big ag lobby and, 00:44:10.579 --> 00:44:13.119 you know, infiltrating their meetings and all 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:17.840 of that. And he was talking about how, you know, 00:44:18.019 --> 00:44:21.340 animal rights organizations or, you know, vegan 00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:26.489 supporting animal welfare laws. was not that 00:44:26.489 --> 00:44:32.710 impactful and that the real impact would be to 00:44:32.710 --> 00:44:36.269 get rid of those subsidies, get rid of that money. 00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:43.429 And I'm so happy to see that this is now part 00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:47.690 of the conversation. At the time when I was discussing 00:44:47.690 --> 00:44:53.280 this with Robert, I think There wasn't any mention 00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:57.099 of that on the news or in political debates and 00:44:57.099 --> 00:45:00.260 all of that, but I feel like trump has Brought 00:45:00.260 --> 00:45:04.619 this on on the table Yeah, and I think trump, 00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:08.900 uh, yeah, so One of the things trump talked about 00:45:08.900 --> 00:45:12.739 when he was running for office was uh this the 00:45:12.739 --> 00:45:16.539 um revolving door, uh from the from the lobby 00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:19.659 is to to uh bureaucrats back to lobby is back 00:45:19.659 --> 00:45:23.190 to bureaucrat And and that's you know, that that's 00:45:23.190 --> 00:45:25.170 really kind of what he's defined as that that 00:45:25.170 --> 00:45:28.989 swamp, right? um, and I think when you You know 00:45:28.989 --> 00:45:31.829 and you look at people like like rfk, um who? 00:45:32.289 --> 00:45:35.769 you know when he was before he uh Jumped on board 00:45:35.769 --> 00:45:38.389 the uh, the trump campaign. He was in his own 00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:40.090 campaign He was talking a lot about that kind 00:45:40.090 --> 00:45:41.750 of thing and the cronyism, you know, that was 00:45:41.750 --> 00:45:45.070 a big focus for him. Um Same with like a tulsi 00:45:45.070 --> 00:45:48.030 gabbard who uh, you know, who will talk about 00:45:48.030 --> 00:45:52.320 the deep state all the time I think that that 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:55.659 right there, because I get into this a good amount 00:45:55.659 --> 00:45:57.840 with people in the animal movement when they're 00:45:57.840 --> 00:45:59.719 trying to understand what we're working on with 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:04.000 Wilberforce, people always want to talk about 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.579 regulations and bans and that kind of thing. 00:46:07.139 --> 00:46:11.380 It's not that I'm against regulations altogether, 00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:14.780 but when you create this structure where you 00:46:14.780 --> 00:46:18.159 have this entrenched executive branch that's 00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:19.599 filled with people who are industry lobbyists. 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.000 I brought up Tom Vilsack earlier, but I think 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.239 Vilsack for the last, you know, he's a great 00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:25.940 example because for the last decade, he's had 00:46:25.940 --> 00:46:29.179 two jobs. One of them is head of ag and he did 00:46:29.179 --> 00:46:32.039 that for Biden and for Obama. And when he's not 00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:34.539 doing that, he's a big dairy lobbyist. I mean, 00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:37.400 who's interest do we think he's working for when 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:41.599 he's in that position? You know, when that's 00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:43.119 his other job, that's the job he's got to go 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:44.539 back to and that's where he makes his real money, 00:46:44.539 --> 00:46:48.190 right? um And I mean you have that that's a that's 00:46:48.190 --> 00:46:50.429 a big example, but you have that all throughout 00:46:50.429 --> 00:46:52.030 these branches So when you're talking about these 00:46:52.030 --> 00:46:54.969 regulations and the ways in which you know There 00:46:54.969 --> 00:46:56.809 there's a there's a problem. I think congress 00:46:56.809 --> 00:46:59.769 has where they they write very they'll write 00:46:59.769 --> 00:47:02.369 uh These thousand page bills and these bills 00:47:02.369 --> 00:47:07.170 are uh, you know um It counts out to a number 00:47:07.170 --> 00:47:09.570 of special interests, but they do they they also 00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:12.980 defer a whole lot of uh Their legislative power 00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:15.679 over to these executive branches and so you basically 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:17.539 you take these send it over to these unelected 00:47:17.539 --> 00:47:19.199 bureaucrats who come from the industries that 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:21.519 they're supposed to regulate and they write regulations 00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:23.340 and when i say i'm against those regulations 00:47:23.340 --> 00:47:26.840 i'm the person who's yeah i i i'll get criticized 00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:29.019 for that saying i'm not for the animals well 00:47:29.019 --> 00:47:30.940 the people who are hurting the animals are writing 00:47:30.940 --> 00:47:33.519 those regulations effectively right and so i 00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:36.679 i i think yeah a lot of it when you i think that's 00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:38.280 that's right to say that the subsidies are a 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:41.489 big part of this um Because here a lot of what 00:47:41.489 --> 00:47:43.570 we're doing is just kind of is putting the people 00:47:43.570 --> 00:47:46.449 who are already, you know, these these massive 00:47:46.449 --> 00:47:51.369 Industrial meat producers these master massive 00:47:51.369 --> 00:47:53.829 factory farms, you know gigantic corporations 00:47:53.829 --> 00:47:58.110 they have you know a ton of unaccountable Unaccountable 00:47:58.110 --> 00:48:01.289 interests in the government and can guide the 00:48:01.289 --> 00:48:04.090 way these regulations are made So I think a bigger 00:48:04.090 --> 00:48:05.630 thing is like let's stop funding them. Let's 00:48:05.630 --> 00:48:08.420 stop bolstering it. Let's stop, you know creating 00:48:08.420 --> 00:48:13.639 an environment where we're not just not regulating, 00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:17.119 we're actually enhancing the cruelty and the 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:21.139 waste and everything else. Do you feel like you're 00:48:21.139 --> 00:48:26.719 having a fight on both fronts with the animal 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:30.940 rights movement trying to gain acceptance and 00:48:30.940 --> 00:48:37.889 support and tolerance and also against, you know, 00:48:38.250 --> 00:48:42.769 those lobbyists, this industry and the corruption 00:48:42.769 --> 00:48:47.110 and the animal exploitation. Yeah, yes and no. 00:48:47.650 --> 00:48:49.710 I'll say, you know, on the one side, yes. I mean, 00:48:49.829 --> 00:48:51.690 we have these these big powerful interests that 00:48:51.690 --> 00:48:54.510 I think are on both sides. And, you know, we 00:48:54.510 --> 00:48:57.309 had I mean, the first day we launched. I think 00:48:57.309 --> 00:48:58.909 it's just because some of the conservative names 00:48:58.909 --> 00:49:01.650 attached to us have been in the space and have 00:49:01.650 --> 00:49:04.690 already drawn that ire from these guys. The first 00:49:04.690 --> 00:49:07.530 day we launched, we had an attack ad that was 00:49:07.530 --> 00:49:10.349 pretty clearly coming from, not an ad, but a 00:49:10.349 --> 00:49:14.510 blog that was guessing at what we were and attacking 00:49:14.510 --> 00:49:18.150 us from the start. So that stuff's there. We 00:49:18.150 --> 00:49:21.349 talked about some of the hostility and the... 00:49:21.779 --> 00:49:24.119 That comes from from the from within the animal 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:26.059 movement, but but I'll say also, you know on 00:49:26.059 --> 00:49:30.539 the other end of it So we've done now, you know 00:49:30.539 --> 00:49:32.420 the beginning of the year we did a Students for 00:49:32.420 --> 00:49:34.219 Liberty event called Liberty Con. It's a big 00:49:34.219 --> 00:49:37.500 libertarian event very student driven And you 00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:38.880 know some of that was temperature -shaking right? 00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.840 It was our first time, you know We've done a 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:42.139 whole bunch of articles and things but we hadn't 00:49:42.139 --> 00:49:44.460 really been out on the ground yet I mean we only 00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:47.119 launched back in September, you know, so and 00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:52.460 when we when we did it, you know we had No, no 00:49:52.460 --> 00:49:56.099 push back. No, you know real like yeah, there's 00:49:56.099 --> 00:49:59.800 no one angrily yelling at us or yeah Making yeah 00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:01.239 any of the kinds of things you'd worry there 00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:04.820 would be There's you know, I can't say everybody 00:50:04.820 --> 00:50:07.679 everybody in the yeah at the conference all signed 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:09.679 up But a ton did you know, we had a bunch of 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.039 people come talk to us They're very enthusiastic 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:13.420 about a lot of them said what you said, which 00:50:13.420 --> 00:50:15.940 is something I've heard Even before launching 00:50:15.940 --> 00:50:17.820 this is something I thought myself as kind of 00:50:17.820 --> 00:50:19.519 impetus for starting it which is you know, man 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:21.420 I wish something like this had existed for years. 00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:22.699 There's always kind of needed something like 00:50:22.699 --> 00:50:25.699 this to exist and So, you know, it was super 00:50:25.699 --> 00:50:29.519 positive and then the on the flip side of it, 00:50:29.739 --> 00:50:32.679 too I went and did you know, this is where we 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:38.119 you and I met you know a panel at Ava the and 00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:44.000 What is it? Animal Vegan Advocacy Summit, is 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:48.619 that right? It's always easier to say, Ava. But 00:50:48.619 --> 00:50:51.900 I went and did the panel there and honestly, 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:54.800 it was the same kind of thing. It was temperature 00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:56.199 taking the other way, right? Like how are we 00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:57.960 going to be perceived as we're this conservative 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:02.400 libertarian organization where we have the opinions 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:03.780 that we do and I was worried there was going 00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:06.889 to be a ton of blowback. Got none. It was actually 00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:09.349 I think there's a whole lot of interest in people 00:51:09.349 --> 00:51:12.590 who are From people who are thinking like man, 00:51:12.610 --> 00:51:14.849 you know what? It's probably a bad idea that 00:51:14.849 --> 00:51:16.889 we've been in a silo that we've been cutting 00:51:16.889 --> 00:51:18.929 off the side because now the side is taking over 00:51:18.929 --> 00:51:20.889 the you know the whole of American government 00:51:20.889 --> 00:51:22.289 if we want to move the needle we need to figure 00:51:22.289 --> 00:51:25.070 out how and So there's a ton of people who wanted 00:51:25.070 --> 00:51:26.309 to talk to us and we're interested in talking 00:51:26.309 --> 00:51:29.289 to us from that perspective. So Honestly, I think 00:51:29.289 --> 00:51:33.920 It's been you know I think part of why I get 00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.139 the privilege of doing this is that I wasn't 00:51:36.139 --> 00:51:40.519 really too worried about making enemies. I like 00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:41.840 making friends, but I ultimately have enough 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:46.920 of them. I don't need to change what I think 00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.480 to appease anybody, and I'm not worried about 00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:54.539 that kind of thing. But on the other hand, honestly, 00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.500 it's been a really positive experience. I think 00:51:57.500 --> 00:51:59.460 a lot of people get what we're doing and really 00:51:59.469 --> 00:52:01.730 They support the idea. I think there's a lot 00:52:01.730 --> 00:52:03.730 of conservatives and libertarians out there who 00:52:03.730 --> 00:52:06.949 have just, you know, who really have wanted a 00:52:06.949 --> 00:52:09.349 kind of ideological home, a place to kind of 00:52:09.349 --> 00:52:11.210 point to to say like, no, no, no, I'm this kind 00:52:11.210 --> 00:52:12.889 of person. This is this is what I think about 00:52:12.889 --> 00:52:15.750 animals. And here's how it here's how it coalesces 00:52:15.750 --> 00:52:19.170 with what I think and and my values. And, you 00:52:19.170 --> 00:52:20.809 know, it's a really cool thing to be able to 00:52:20.809 --> 00:52:23.610 to kind of represent that and to to build that. 00:52:24.110 --> 00:52:28.550 Yes, the the event. This is where we meant and 00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:35.380 I wish I attended your panel, but I could not. 00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:41.980 But I did attend a meetup you organized. It was 00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:45.019 called something like a conservative libertarian 00:52:45.019 --> 00:52:48.139 classical liberal meetup, something like that. 00:52:48.460 --> 00:52:53.050 And it was so funny because there was just a 00:52:53.050 --> 00:52:56.750 handful of people and everyone, you know, when 00:52:56.750 --> 00:53:00.489 we introduced ourselves, no one was conservative. 00:53:04.289 --> 00:53:07.329 I made a joke about that in my panel. I said, 00:53:07.329 --> 00:53:09.550 uh, you know, I was like, we had a, we had a 00:53:09.550 --> 00:53:11.409 tremendous response, a big, you know, way more 00:53:11.409 --> 00:53:14.329 than I anticipated. It was five strong and of 00:53:14.329 --> 00:53:17.789 that group, I was, you know, I think there was 00:53:17.789 --> 00:53:21.039 like three people who were, uh, you know curious 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:24.780 um Independence you had like it was like there 00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:27.039 wasn't no one that showed up was like a card 00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:29.739 -carrying uh, mega republican, you know There's 00:53:29.739 --> 00:53:31.920 one like kind of quasi libertarian. Yeah, but 00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:34.780 but I uh that I mean that was sort of the point 00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:39.059 in and of itself, right? Um But I I do think 00:53:39.059 --> 00:53:42.380 um Well, yeah, go ahead. But that was yeah, I 00:53:42.380 --> 00:53:43.800 was glad you came there. I'm glad that's where 00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:47.960 we met and it was uh It's funny. I mean what 00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:49.900 I what I what I talked about in the panel with 00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:54.480 that was You know that you had over, you know 00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:57.840 over a thousand people probably at Ava And of 00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:01.460 them there's what you know, maybe three Trump 00:54:01.460 --> 00:54:06.300 voters, you know, I mean You know that that's 00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:08.239 probably not surprising to people but I what 00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:09.719 yeah the case I meant to that was I think it 00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:11.179 should be surprising and it's something that 00:54:11.179 --> 00:54:13.579 you know Like look, there's there's part of this 00:54:13.579 --> 00:54:16.449 where yeah Conservatives and Libertarians we 00:54:16.449 --> 00:54:18.090 need to take some ownership and get it. Yeah, 00:54:18.150 --> 00:54:20.730 take some active You know, they kind of force 00:54:20.730 --> 00:54:22.070 our way into the movement a little bit, right? 00:54:22.110 --> 00:54:23.969 Like we need to take some ownership of the causes 00:54:23.969 --> 00:54:26.489 that we care about But on the other hand, it's 00:54:26.489 --> 00:54:28.469 it's you know, the challenge I threw to the to 00:54:28.469 --> 00:54:30.909 the people at the panel was You know, are you 00:54:30.909 --> 00:54:33.670 doing what you can? Are you being intentional 00:54:33.670 --> 00:54:36.389 about expanding this movement expanding the intellectual 00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:38.829 diversity here? Because you know, there really 00:54:38.829 --> 00:54:40.670 should be a larger representation than that, 00:54:40.670 --> 00:54:45.019 you know Yeah, that's the thing there's a real 00:54:45.019 --> 00:54:47.360 bias, you know, a real, first of all, there's 00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:50.119 gatekeeping. If you're announced that you're 00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:52.940 a conservative, you won't get support like community 00:54:52.940 --> 00:54:57.559 support from fellow vegans. And then there's 00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:01.880 an intentional, you know, desire not to reach 00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:05.519 out to conservatives, like this defeatist attitude 00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.380 of thinking, oh, but they're conservatives, they 00:55:08.380 --> 00:55:11.719 won't care about animals. And then they complain 00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:16.369 that conservatives are not more caring about 00:55:16.369 --> 00:55:22.449 animals. In the last decades, what kind of actions 00:55:22.449 --> 00:55:26.760 have you done? done targeted to conservatives. 00:55:27.079 --> 00:55:31.800 Zero. The answer is zero. So if you look at the 00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:36.639 landscape of who is vegan and who isn't, and 00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:38.860 you see that most conservatives are not vegan, 00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.280 maybe you have a responsibility in that. Maybe 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:48.239 you're to blame for it. I would point out most 00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:52.070 liberals aren't vegan either. but it's uh and 00:55:52.070 --> 00:55:54.130 the numbers are different but still but but you 00:55:54.130 --> 00:55:55.969 know you you had so you had two conservative 00:55:55.969 --> 00:55:58.809 vegans on uh at one point i listened to that 00:55:58.809 --> 00:56:02.449 show it was a very good episode and uh the one 00:56:02.449 --> 00:56:04.469 of the guests had mentioned that she was in a 00:56:04.469 --> 00:56:07.710 um a facebook group of conservative vegans that 00:56:07.710 --> 00:56:10.389 was like 1500 people you know and i and this 00:56:10.389 --> 00:56:13.389 is another thing i talked about in the um in 00:56:13.389 --> 00:56:17.030 my uh In my panel was it was uh, i'm gonna, you 00:56:17.030 --> 00:56:19.809 know will before us. We're in a um in a an x 00:56:19.809 --> 00:56:22.090 group right a direct message group on x that's 00:56:22.090 --> 00:56:24.389 I mean Yeah, pretty substantial. It's pretty 00:56:24.389 --> 00:56:27.289 large and it's uh, you know It's called the patriot 00:56:27.289 --> 00:56:28.829 animal network and it's a bunch of people who 00:56:28.829 --> 00:56:33.090 are probably mostly very You know pro trump mega 00:56:33.090 --> 00:56:36.050 republicans. Um, some libertarians in there, 00:56:36.050 --> 00:56:40.070 but very very conservative crowd, right? um and 00:56:40.070 --> 00:56:42.869 most of them have some kind of involvement in 00:56:42.869 --> 00:56:46.610 and uh Yeah, animal welfare. Yeah, a lot of them 00:56:46.610 --> 00:56:48.090 do it professionally. Some of them are just like 00:56:48.090 --> 00:56:52.090 social media influencers who do, who do a lot 00:56:52.090 --> 00:56:55.789 of animal oriented posts. And, you know, we have 00:56:55.789 --> 00:57:00.030 this group going on this network and it's, but, 00:57:00.050 --> 00:57:01.769 you know, the other thing with that, which surprised 00:57:01.769 --> 00:57:03.369 me with that group too, because I did a kind 00:57:03.369 --> 00:57:05.909 of an ad hoc poll because I was curious, because 00:57:05.909 --> 00:57:07.969 it's not something that's very talked about very 00:57:07.969 --> 00:57:10.349 much in that group, but as it turns out, probably 00:57:10.349 --> 00:57:12.389 most of them are vegan. Or if not, if not most, 00:57:12.530 --> 00:57:14.710 if not, you know, If not most of them, it's close 00:57:14.710 --> 00:57:16.869 to the majority of them. Most of the people that 00:57:16.869 --> 00:57:22.170 responded certainly were. My question is, why 00:57:22.170 --> 00:57:23.789 aren't they going to things like ABA? Why aren't 00:57:23.789 --> 00:57:26.309 they involved in these kinds of movements? Like 00:57:26.309 --> 00:57:29.530 I said, part of that's on us, on the conservatives 00:57:29.530 --> 00:57:31.469 and libertarians. I'm going to do my part to 00:57:31.469 --> 00:57:32.769 try to push them out to these events and get 00:57:32.769 --> 00:57:38.050 them to take that ownership. These people, they 00:57:38.050 --> 00:57:42.489 exist. They are there. They're real. it only 00:57:42.489 --> 00:57:44.690 helps the movement for us to get to kind of coalesce 00:57:44.690 --> 00:57:46.210 and start working on these animal causes together 00:57:46.210 --> 00:57:49.469 for sure. I was scared at the election because 00:57:49.469 --> 00:57:56.050 I was thinking now that conservatives have taken 00:57:56.050 --> 00:58:02.809 over, there won't be any pro -animal vegan voice 00:58:02.809 --> 00:58:07.199 at the table. And so we have stopped ourselves 00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:11.280 from making any progress because we have uninvited 00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:16.539 ourselves from, you know, the conservative center 00:58:16.539 --> 00:58:21.960 of powers. But I was wrong. In fact, I was very 00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:25.980 wrong. Because the biggest. I was waiting to 00:58:25.980 --> 00:58:34.309 tell you, but you already know. Go ahead. My 00:58:34.309 --> 00:58:38.409 other fear around that was that I look at the 00:58:38.409 --> 00:58:43.610 Democratic Party and I look at what constitutes 00:58:43.610 --> 00:58:51.869 the liberal block, voter block, and I'm thinking 00:58:51.869 --> 00:58:58.170 those people will not gain back power for years 00:58:58.170 --> 00:59:01.769 to come. They're so disconnected from reality. 00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:07.579 and from, you know, the mainstream normal person 00:59:07.579 --> 00:59:12.360 in the streets, that, you know, I don't, I'm 00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:15.659 not very optimistic about their political prospects. 00:59:15.739 --> 00:59:19.539 And I guess, you know, I'm looking at the midterm 00:59:19.539 --> 00:59:24.119 election to see if the Republicans will keep 00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:27.940 the House because I guess that would be a great 00:59:27.940 --> 00:59:32.809 indicator of the political future of the Democratic 00:59:32.809 --> 00:59:40.789 Party. So if we invited ourselves from the center 00:59:40.789 --> 00:59:42.710 of power, the conservative center of powers, 00:59:43.090 --> 00:59:45.449 and we're not there to advocate for animals, 00:59:46.030 --> 00:59:49.070 and conservatives will have power for years and 00:59:49.070 --> 00:59:55.510 years to come, then we virtually shoot ourselves 00:59:55.510 --> 01:00:00.460 in the foot. in terms of progress and advancing 01:00:00.460 --> 01:00:04.719 the animal cause. Now, I was wrong. But, you 01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:08.219 know, what do you make of this analysis? That's 01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:10.860 interesting. I don't know if I'm the best, you 01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:16.360 know, political forecaster. I'm as interested 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:18.360 as you are to see kind of what them in terms, 01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:20.900 you know, hold and what that what that ends up 01:00:20.900 --> 01:00:24.320 looking like. I do I do agree. I think that there's 01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:28.320 a that that's, you know, The the Democratic Party 01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:31.380 definitely has a problem with being Massively 01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:34.199 out of touch. I think man. I don't want to upset 01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:37.920 so upset the listeners too much, but I Would 01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:41.360 I would recommend to them what you know? Letting 01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:43.900 letting their their voters pick their own candidates 01:00:43.900 --> 01:00:46.199 would be it would be a good start I don't know 01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:49.260 if they've had a real if they've if they've actually 01:00:49.260 --> 01:00:52.119 really had a primary election for president in 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:58.769 like 12 years, but No, I Think it's interesting. 01:00:58.769 --> 01:01:03.349 I think that Now because of the work of groups 01:01:03.349 --> 01:01:08.210 like white coat waste and Because of the willingness 01:01:08.210 --> 01:01:09.750 of a lot of the cuz that you know, we've done 01:01:09.750 --> 01:01:13.929 a lot of joking and teasing of the the the animal 01:01:13.929 --> 01:01:16.809 we've been on this Discussion and also some yeah, 01:01:16.889 --> 01:01:18.909 so I think realistic and worthwhile criticisms, 01:01:19.150 --> 01:01:21.250 right? But I mean there's there I think there 01:01:21.250 --> 01:01:23.510 are a lot of very smart and very intentional 01:01:23.510 --> 01:01:27.099 very good people We're in the animal movement 01:01:27.099 --> 01:01:29.519 that are also very pragmatic and are seeing this 01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:32.159 issue and understanding that you know the left 01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:33.860 has this problem and they're they're working 01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:36.820 on You know in very sincere and genuine ways 01:01:36.820 --> 01:01:38.659 like okay. How do we fix this? How do we extend 01:01:38.659 --> 01:01:40.280 these olive branches? How do we how we make how 01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:42.900 we improve the situation? And I think that that 01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:46.840 work is going to matter and I you know I think 01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:49.980 this you know, if you're right if your assessments, 01:01:49.980 --> 01:01:55.869 right and and the the the Democrats aren't going 01:01:55.869 --> 01:01:58.449 to get anything together anytime soon, and we're 01:01:58.449 --> 01:02:00.369 looking at them dealing with a lot of electoral 01:02:00.369 --> 01:02:04.050 losses for a while, which I think is a reasonable 01:02:04.050 --> 01:02:09.369 assessment for sure, then I think that we should 01:02:09.369 --> 01:02:12.929 look at that as an opportunity to build up the 01:02:12.929 --> 01:02:16.769 Adam and Lupin in the political right. Happy 01:02:16.769 --> 01:02:18.309 to talk to anyone who wants to talk about how 01:02:18.309 --> 01:02:22.679 we do that. Yeah, you're very optimistic. Do 01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:28.059 you believe that there is a way forward in terms 01:02:28.059 --> 01:02:31.599 of bipartisanship in the animal rights movement, 01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:37.239 or do you see divisions in the future, you know, 01:02:37.380 --> 01:02:40.739 those pragmatic and smart people, and I hope 01:02:40.739 --> 01:02:45.300 I'm one of them. You are. Thank you. Separating 01:02:45.300 --> 01:02:48.699 themselves from the mainstream animal rights 01:02:48.699 --> 01:02:52.789 movement and, you know, just following others, 01:02:53.030 --> 01:02:57.570 because I asked the same question to Rabbi Akiva 01:02:57.570 --> 01:03:03.469 in a previous episode, and I mentioned, do you 01:03:03.469 --> 01:03:09.489 see a future where Jews, vegan Jews, would come 01:03:09.489 --> 01:03:14.099 back to the animal rights movement fold? And 01:03:14.099 --> 01:03:17.000 he said, no, no, I don't see that. I think we're 01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:19.780 going to do our own thing. Makes me feel a bit 01:03:19.780 --> 01:03:23.980 sad, but at the same time, I think there is place, 01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:27.739 more place for diversity than of opinion and 01:03:27.739 --> 01:03:31.980 thoughts for this movement. And maybe, you know, 01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:37.000 this united approach is less impactful than maybe 01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:39.880 a more divisive one and everyone doing their 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:43.460 own thing. So what do you make of that? Yeah, 01:03:43.460 --> 01:03:46.679 I think It's interesting. It's an interesting 01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:52.920 question. I think that there's a lot of So I 01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:55.800 guess part of this is informed by you know, I 01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:57.820 you've probably noticed I always refer to real 01:03:57.820 --> 01:03:59.920 forces as conservative and libertarian right 01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:01.719 and we have conservatives and libertarians and 01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:07.099 that is as close to a Catch -all for the big 01:04:07.099 --> 01:04:09.099 tank tent that we're trying who are operating 01:04:09.099 --> 01:04:13.710 under here That I that I can get right it was 01:04:13.710 --> 01:04:15.590 used you mentioned that the meetup that we did 01:04:15.590 --> 01:04:17.750 and I had it Literally called a conservative 01:04:17.750 --> 01:04:19.469 libertarian meetup, but then I had it was like 01:04:19.469 --> 01:04:21.230 I don't care Yeah, it's like you call yourself 01:04:21.230 --> 01:04:24.409 a classical liberal a yeah and cap like every 01:04:24.409 --> 01:04:27.530 single designator that I could think of you know 01:04:27.530 --> 01:04:30.550 because I wanted to say like is as Widely defined 01:04:30.550 --> 01:04:33.650 as we can, you know, yeah, that's who we're looking 01:04:33.650 --> 01:04:36.190 for here, right? And and so I think there's something 01:04:36.190 --> 01:04:39.239 similar to that Within the animal of it. I kind 01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:41.139 of see it the same way where it's like there's 01:04:41.139 --> 01:04:42.800 that there's a general caught There's a general 01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:45.360 purpose general mission and then a bunch of different 01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:47.199 approaches to it a bunch of different ways and 01:04:47.199 --> 01:04:50.719 I think You know, I think that can coalesce very 01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:54.340 broadly and then work, you know intentionally 01:04:54.340 --> 01:04:58.900 very In you know in different channels, right 01:04:58.900 --> 01:05:00.760 and sometimes they and collaborating where they 01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:04.000 were that where that makes sense, too I think 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:09.280 for you know for Okay, so this is a there's a 01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.440 magazine called the American conservative right 01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:16.800 and That magazine came out during the Bush years 01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:21.900 and it was It was actually a reaction to the 01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:26.159 Bush presidency, right? It was it was very Anti 01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:28.840 -immigration it was very, you know border security. 01:05:28.840 --> 01:05:33.000 It was very anti -war and You know the number 01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:36.110 the number of these issues that at the time Yeah, 01:05:36.130 --> 01:05:38.550 they did it again to kind of protest Bush and 01:05:38.550 --> 01:05:40.969 call themselves the American server, right? And 01:05:40.969 --> 01:05:44.230 it was very different than what the Republican 01:05:44.230 --> 01:05:47.730 Party looked like at the time. But you look at 01:05:47.730 --> 01:05:50.929 the Republican Party now, and what they started 01:05:50.929 --> 01:05:53.690 writing about then is basically the Republican 01:05:53.690 --> 01:05:57.389 Party now, right? It is the Trump era Republican. 01:05:57.530 --> 01:05:59.309 It looks exactly like what they were talking 01:05:59.309 --> 01:06:01.210 about. And these are actually the guys, incidentally, 01:06:01.769 --> 01:06:04.929 who put JD Vance on the map. they reviewed his 01:06:04.929 --> 01:06:07.690 book hillbilly elegy and that that's what uh 01:06:07.690 --> 01:06:09.829 started the rise of that book and made it a bestseller 01:06:09.829 --> 01:06:12.070 and all that all of that so i'm not saying that 01:06:12.070 --> 01:06:14.469 the american conservative magazine is the reason 01:06:14.469 --> 01:06:19.230 that um that we have now uh yeah the republican 01:06:19.230 --> 01:06:22.070 party that we do but definitely they were put 01:06:22.070 --> 01:06:24.630 they were they were early in in shaping that 01:06:24.630 --> 01:06:25.989 thought and they were working in those channels 01:06:25.989 --> 01:06:29.289 to shape that thought um i think i think about 01:06:29.289 --> 01:06:31.030 them when i feel like this is like a very uphill 01:06:31.030 --> 01:06:34.289 battle and i and i Because I realize that what 01:06:34.289 --> 01:06:38.329 we're trying to do really is create a meaningful 01:06:38.329 --> 01:06:41.050 segment of the American political right that 01:06:41.050 --> 01:06:43.289 cares about animals and that is working intentionally 01:06:43.289 --> 01:06:47.250 for animals. We'd love to see it be a real serious 01:06:47.250 --> 01:06:49.130 plank of the Republican Party and that kind of 01:06:49.130 --> 01:06:51.989 thing. That seems a lot more attainable when 01:06:51.989 --> 01:06:54.750 I start thinking about the way in which that 01:06:54.750 --> 01:06:58.750 party shifted. So I think that you can use that 01:06:58.750 --> 01:07:02.599 example and if you think about the way this movement 01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:04.440 is going to grow in shape and the way these paradigms 01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:09.000 can shift in not that long of a time. I guess 01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:12.460 that's where my optimism comes from on it. Wonderful. 01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:17.079 I think those are great words to close the conversation. 01:07:19.139 --> 01:07:21.840 Liam, did you want to add something before I 01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:27.099 stop the recording? No, I think I covered just 01:07:27.099 --> 01:07:28.940 about everything. It was a great conversation. 01:07:28.980 --> 01:07:31.190 I appreciate you taking the time to do it. I 01:07:31.190 --> 01:07:33.150 would love anyone who wants to find out more 01:07:33.150 --> 01:07:36.289 about what we're doing. Check us out at willbeforest 01:07:36.289 --> 01:07:42.730 .institute or go to see us on X. It's at willbeforest 01:07:42.730 --> 01:07:48.230 .institute. And yeah, also happy to continue 01:07:48.230 --> 01:07:49.550 the conversation with anybody if they want to 01:07:49.550 --> 01:07:55.300 try to send us an email. I will mention all of 01:07:55.300 --> 01:07:56.980 that in the introduction and of course there 01:07:56.980 --> 01:08:00.980 will be links in the episode notes for easy access 01:08:00.980 --> 01:08:05.079 to all of that. Wonderful. Cut that part out, 01:08:05.099 --> 01:08:11.440 that's fine. I'm just editing, just to have a 01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:16.819 better flow. Mostly editing my questions. I thought 01:08:16.819 --> 01:08:19.880 your questions were great. Yes, yes, but you 01:08:19.880 --> 01:08:24.479 know, the execution. Perfect. I think you did 01:08:24.479 --> 01:08:26.800 better. You executed better than I did, for sure. 01:08:27.140 --> 01:08:31.579 No, no, no. Your answers were great. Thank you. 01:08:31.659 --> 01:08:33.779 Thank you so much, Liam, for having accepted 01:08:33.779 --> 01:08:37.119 my invitation and answered my questions. And 01:08:37.119 --> 01:08:39.260 thank you so much for your precious work. I'm, 01:08:39.260 --> 01:08:42.680 again, so happy that you exist. Thank you. Thank 01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:47.039 you for yours. I'm excited. Glad to call you 01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:48.880 a friend. I'm excited to talk more to you and 01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:51.159 yeah, let's keep our conversations going. Definitely 01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:54.579 I consider you as a friend too. Thank you everyone 01:08:54.579 --> 01:08:57.739 for listening. I kindly invite you to share this 01:08:57.739 --> 01:09:00.600 podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage 01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:04.560 more people to take action. Again, thank you 01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:07.560 so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday 01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.039 for a new episode.