My name is Ryan and you are listening to The
Vegan Report. In light of recent news that the
Trump administration is scaling back animal experimentation
across various levels of government, such as
the National Institute of Health, the Environmental
Protection Agency, and even the military, it
is time to put to rest this idea that conservatives
do not care about animals or have no place in
the animal protection movement. I believe that
anyone willing to advance this cause and put
an end to the bloody business of animal exploitation,
indiscriminately of religion, culture, race,
ethnicity, or something as trivial as political
inclinations, should be welcomed and supported
by this movement. To discuss this topic and more,
we are lucky to have Liam Gray, someone who is
immersed in the world of politics. He is the
founder of the Wilberforce Institute, which is
a public policy think tank, dedicated to advancing
the recognition of the inherent value and dignity
of life, a market. free from corrupt and coercive
government intrusion and intellectually diverse
policies that benefit human and animal interests.
Visit the link in the episode notes to learn
more about their great work and how to support
them. one of the biggest scandal of the animal
rights movement which is the fact that the biggest
progress that we have seen in the animal pro
-animal cause came from a conservative government
and I'm talking about the ban on animal testing.
So the National Institute of Health recently
announced an initiative to phase out animal testing.
So they will now prioritize human -based research
methods, such as data science, artificial intelligence,
and tests on lab -grown organ -like structures
called organoids. I don't know if you ever heard
of that term before. The EPA has the ambition
of completely banning animal testing and following
this is the Navy, the US Navy that has decided
to end all research testing on cats and dogs.
Now it is a scandal because if you ask your average
animal rights activists what is their opinion
of conservatives and of the Trump administration
or any right -leaning person, they will have
a very hostile reaction. And they believe, and
I'm talking from, you know, experience of conversations
with them, that there is no progress to be, no
accomplishment from, you know, collaborating
with conservatives. And obviously this is wrong.
So, okay, can you explain what is happening here?
How come, you know, one of the if not the biggest
progress for the animal cause in recent memory
came from a conservative government, from the
Trump administration, and without, you know,
your the traditional animal rights, you know,
ways of putting pressure and, you know, this
was not the result of a nationwide campaign from
PETA or of protests organized by, you know, name
your favorite animal rights organization. So
what is happening here? Sure. So and I think
you're right. The the impact this is having and
the trajectory it's on. I mean, I I don't think
it's overly optimistic to say that, you know,
the end of animal experimentation uh... writ
large could be right on the horizon now uh...
obviously is still a lot more to go but but there
that the progress has been incredible i think
uh... it's really important when we when we look
at what happened here to look at the work of
uh... white coat waste which is uh... organization
there uh... in uh... nonpartisan but they've
worked uh... extensively with uh... conservatives
and libertarians especially republican uh...
republicans in congress a lot of the ones that
i think uh... A lot of the much of the animal
rights movement would be the least willing or
least interested to work with, or they would
at least think of them as maybe people that they
wouldn't be worth their time to reach out to,
like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who had went after
Fauci on the NIH's Beagle experiments in front
of Congress, or Nancy Mase, who's worked on a
ton of these issues with white coat waste. I
what white coat did with these with uh with this
so i'll back up white coat is um entirely focused
on um government funded animal experimentation
that that is the whole the the the entire scope
of what they work on and uh and they talked about
this not only from the cruelty aspect which they
they never shy away from talking about uh the
cruelty in these experiments, but they also talk
about the taxpayer waste, the excessive spending
that we're doing on these programs, the absurdity
of most of these experiments. My inclination,
this is a sort of anecdotal thing, but I don't
necessarily have some stats behind this, but
I think what you have a lot of with a lot of
these... That these kinds of experimentation
programs is you know if you've worked in any
kind of especially government organization but
also big corporations do the same thing and you're
coming to the end of the fiscal quarter and you
and You you know realize that you're not gonna
get the budget you got last year unless you spend
some more money So they go and then that's that's
how you know when I was in the army we ended
up spending Yeah, excessive amounts of money
on things like staplers just to make sure that
we don't we get the same money We did last year,
right? Think you have the same thing going on
with these experimentations or experiments in
a lot of times where it's they they have these
research projects that you know routinely make
Senator rent Rand Paul's Festus Festivus report
where it just highlights You know absurd spending
that the government's doing every year The lion's
share that comes from what white coat research
and it's always these ridiculous experiments
like the yeah Again, the left tried to say this
one wasn't real, but it's been proven real, the
transgender mice experiments where they were
doing transgender operations on mice. Not only
is it excessively cruel, it's ridiculous. Why
are we doing this? If you take that success and
you look at what they've done there and you extrapolate
that, to the other areas where animals are being
harmed, especially at the hands of the government
or with our tax dollars. The most obvious of
those being factory farming. I think it gives
you a good roadmap on how we can actually make
some progress here. And that's what with Wilberforce
Institute, what we're trying to do. I want to
get back to this perception of conservatives
as being the enemy. And I want to give a concrete
example of that. So after the election, I made
an episode called make animal rights bipartisan
again. And I shared that on the vegan subreddit
and I got demolished. So let me read some of
the comments I got from that podcast. We can't
get the conservatives to care about starving
humans. So I don't know why they'd care about
non -humans. conservatives don't give a shit
about animal rights conservatives don't give
a shit about human rights then there was someone
who commented vegan conservatives here and Someone
responded trying to phrase this in a way that
isn't a loaded question, but do you feel like
there isn't there? There's any inconsistencies
between veganism and any of your political views
And then following that you mean you're a plant
-based conservative Explain yourself. I want
to see fewer chickens and more Mexican children
in cages and I could go on and on and on Why
is there this antagonism towards conservatives?
Yeah, you know, I think I think it has to do
with the general the general sort of Yeah tribalism
and teams thing that we've got and especially
in the states I don't know. I don't know what
it looks like elsewhere in the world exactly
but you know, we've because we have the Two -party
system and it's very entrenched in these two
teams you anything that gets Coated as one side
or the other gets bashed if you have any kind
of car crossover, which is obviously a really
Unproductive thing for your your normal non deep
state citizen, right? Um, but it's it's interesting
because it's it's something you know when you
look at um Yeah, depending on what what stats
you want to you want to use I think in that in
that episode you're talking about I believe you
referenced the uh, the phonolytic study But there's
a number of these where I mean any any study
you point to is going to show most people Yes,
sincerely and have have sincere heartfelt Care
for animals most people love animals. Most people
hate factory farming. I would argue I don't think
anybody There's anybody out there really who
that isn't paid to like factory farming that
actually likes factory farming, you know, I but
But what even though we have that it's still
even though those are the general perceptions
everyone has The factory farming is growing every
single year, you know, and I think a lot of that
has to do with exactly what you're talking about
here where it's We're so entrenched and they've
this this, you know It keeps conservatives away
from the animal issue to to have that kind of
response when they try to go into animal issues,
right? and it's sort of the reciprocal thing
there's there's it's on, you know both ends of
it, but But yeah, I think It's it's certainly
hurting the the progress and what you know what
we can actually hope to attain for animals when
we're when you know You have this artificial
political divide that doesn't really you know
actually make any sense when it comes down to
it What does my my view? What are my views on
tax policy really have to do with my views on
animals, right? And also that that sort of you
know, the those kinds of pejorative understandings
of what your opposition believes like Yeah, because
I voted for Trump doesn't mean I want to see
What was the yeah Hispanic kids in cages or whatever
that that one quote was, you know that kind of
thing. It's like that's that's not that's not
actually what I voted for anymore than you know,
I mean look it was Biden that went to the to
the Supreme Court with you know alongside Smithfield
and and Vilsack is his big dairy lobbyist head
of the USDA and and you know tried to push the
eats act through the Supreme Court and it was
Trump's appointees that that ruled against it,
right? So, you know, that doesn't mean I'm going
to, you know, I'm not now going to say every
single Democrat out there, everyone who voted
for Biden is a proponent of factory farming or,
you know, is anti Prop 12 or wants to federalize,
you know, like wants to stop Prop 12 from a federal
level. You know, that's obviously not a, yeah,
that would be a leap for me to say that, right?
But I don't think people are necessarily, you
know, accepting that kind of nuance. Let me add
a layer of complication to this whole story.
I learned from preparing for this conversation
that during the first Trump administration, they
wanted to ban up to 30 % of animal experimentations
with the EPA. And they wanted to accomplish that
goal for the year 2025. But when the Biden administration
came into power, they stopped that. Now, there
is also the fact that during the electoral campaign,
when Tim Walz, I think, the VP with Kamala was
presented as a candidate, the first promotional
video that announced his name and his you know
presence on the political scene we saw him in
that video in a dairy farm and you know he he
worked hard to build that character of hey I'm
the hunting guy I'm the guy who cares about dairy
farmers and and this felt like the candidate
you would not want to vote for as a vegan or
someone who cares about animals. So why do most
vegans and animal rights activists think of the
liberal platform and liberal party as the most
pro -animal party when there is evidence that
they don't care about animals? Yeah, and that's
that's what I can't answer exactly why why they
would think it right, but but you're right I
then that that whole campaign it makes me think
of the the Tim Walls is the big I think that
there's something like a overcorrection on This
perception of like the the masculinity idea right
there. There's like this idea that oh, they're
voting for Trump because I don't know because
they think he can beat him in a in a an arm wrestling
match or something, but It was it's it's a very
it's a very silly idea to begin with But I think
you you know, you can see that elsewhere where
there's that I haven't followed this guy at all
I really honestly don't know too much about him
but the Hassan piker who they're kind of marketing
is like the Joe Rogan of the left, right? Which
is it's funny in and of itself because it's he's
that's a guy. Yes You can make a case that the
Joe Rogan of the left is Joe Rogan, but that's
a whole other thing. But it's funny, my understanding
is this guy is a big, he's always eating chickens.
It's a thing for him where he's like, and I guess
it's kind of pitched this manly, masculine kind
of thing. But when you compare that to the person
they're talking about, Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan's
a mediator for sure, and he's a hunter, but he
also, he's talked extensively on his show about
About yeah, how horrible factory farming is how
he's only going to eat the yeah Eat from animals
that he kills himself and like he won't eat the
factory farming because of the cruelty and you
know Is that a is that from a vegan perspective
ideal? No, but it's you know directionally exactly
where you know way better than the southern guy
who's eating mass -produced chicken every day
and Advertising and making it into this manly
thing and that's coming from the left. So it's
interesting I don't know where that perception
Where it comes from? You know the namesake of
our organization William Wilberforce was it was
a Christian conservative performer who you know
helped was largely credited with ending the slave
trade and in the in England, but he also founded
the The RSPCA it was the the first the edibles
the first animal welfare organization in the
world that came from you know a conservative
so it's not like a You know, like there's no
history of this. I mean you've talked about Matthew
Scully on my on your in other episodes and Matthew
Scully is a Who you know for any listen to you
haven't caught that he's a You know, it was a
presidential speechwriter Republican speechwriter
Who wrote a book called Dominion, which is really?
I think I think has brought a lot of conservatives
Yeah, a lot of the conservatives who? Stopped
eating animals. I think points to that book but
the interesting interesting thing about that
book is it's not really a it's not a conservative
case It's for for not eating animals. It's it's
a human case for not eating. You know, it's uh
So we're coming to these things from the same
reasons. We have the same concerns for animals
I think that the disparity is almost a Sort of
just I think more than anything else is kind
of goes back to the sort of the sort of tribal
thing and the The team's thing that we have going
on But that makes sense. There's a perception
where you're not, you know, where you're not
if you're if you're of the right, you're not
supposed to be a part of these movements of the
animal movement and the animal movement, you
know, does everything they can to fulfill that
and kind of, you know, make make it seem like
unfriendly territory, you know, as you pointed
out with those those comments and things like
that. Yes, definitely. And there's this also
this whole thing of tying the pro animal movement
with. a more left -wing ideology. So, for instance,
talking about veganism as an anti -capitalism
movement. Like here. I mean, the first time I
heard that, I was thinking, what? I mean, I'm
here for, you know, liberating animals and stopping
animal expectation. Why are we talking about,
you know, capitalism and, and your socialism
and no, this is not what I subscribe for. And
there's also this aversion towards religion.
I believe that, you know, betting on the religious
argument for veganism or for animals is how you
connect with people, how you make real lasting
change, how you establish this doctrine in the
life of people. But there is this aversion, you
know, and this perception that you cannot collaborate
with religious people to make change. um and
religion is somewhat responsible for um animal
exploitation which you know yeah historically
you could make that point you know but this this
is not like sacrifices things like that is that
the argument there or what's what's the Well,
for instance, you know, anthropocentrism, the
fact that, you know, everything is for humans,
that we are, we have dominion over everything.
And so we can do whatever we want. But I feel
like, you know, it doesn't reflect the current
reality of, you know, religious discourse. So
what do you make of that? So, well, I'll start
with the religion one, because that's, that's
interesting. And I would, I find that The dominion
argument and that characterization of it really
funny because it's not That doesn't make any
sense to me. I mean if you think about it in
a very uh, Just yeah simplistic sense like like
let's let's say we're you know If i'm if I have
dominion over a people right if I have dominion
over some yeah Some group of people does that
mean that I can then eat my subjects or I can
treat them however I you know, whatever whatever
cruel in any name ways. I mean that's pretty
counter to any any uh any doctrinal understanding
of leadership or uh rulers rulership or anything
to this line, so I I've always found that kind
of I actually think by and large and To you to
your point. I think you're making the beginning
of that too You know, I think it's really working
with the faith communities. I think a lot of
the I Think when you apply religious values from
really any faith to the animal idea I think that's
really where you're gonna see a lot of this movement.
I think there's I mean It's it's really it's
really hard. I think to make a a strong religious
case for treating animals the way that we do
on the political part of it and that and that
sort of the anti -capitalist thing and that that
whole sense that you alluded to at the beginning
of that That's another interesting one because
I think I think it's part of the problem to what
part of why we're not making Why why the animal
movement isn't making the progress that we'd
like to see it make is that you know, there there's
been a My opinion is there's the shift on the
left where you've had this I mean, it's always
been you know, traditionally the the big the
big government party the big government idea
but but there used to be a Almost more anti -establishment
sense. I think it's kind of gone away and you
sort of leaned into this To you know this trust
of the government idea, which I think would have
been really foreign to a lot of people of the
left You know a few decades ago or even less
and that's coupled with also I you know like
a It's a more there's been more corporate distrust
on the right Then maybe even on the left lately
with where you have, you know Republicans especially
mega Republicans and getting very distrustful
of things like big pharma and big, you know,
that's kind of the maha movement And big big
tech in those areas where I think that's that's
something Yeah, if the the complaints the critiques
they're making there Really apply to the sort
of big ag infrastructure and the and these the
ways in which government is really becoming becoming
or is one of the or I would say government is
or At least one of the biggest perpetrators again
animal suffering animal suffering in the world.
I mean when you look at You know the USDA and
the way the ways in which it bolsters Yeah, big
ag way bolsters industrial farm industrial meat
production uh... things like you have a beer
of land management and the worst roundups in
the uh... or wildlife services the kind of rampant
killing of animals out there and i'm kind of
rattling through things we can talk about an
even more depth you'd like but but i uh... it's
interesting i think because your because we're
uh... are in these political uh... paradigms
to it because that the leftist is when when you
have those things like that making this an anti
-capitalist movement or that kind of deal i think
you're kind of allowing for the government to
continue to grow and inflict this harm on animals
and you're sort of giving them a free pass to
do it. Let me get back quickly to that outstanding
news of this ban on animal experimentation. I
want to just highlight how incredible and impactful
this decision from the Trump administration is.
he has, you know, liberated millions of sentient
creatures from the worst kind of suffering out
there, from the worst kind of animal exploitation.
And I feel like if this was coming from a left
-wing government, if this was the result of some,
you know, PETA campaign or your traditional animal
rights strain, um, uh, or organization, um, we
would have, uh, been witnessing, you know, uh,
week after week of celebration, you know, on
social media awards, speeches, um, like the,
the, that accomplishment would have been, you
know, celebrated for months yet. This has been
under the radar of most vegans. This went under
the radar of most people who care about animals,
as if it was something minor. And the few animal
rights activists I've seen celebrating this accomplishment
from the Trump administration always do it with
a few comments on, hey, this is great and they're
doing a good job, but I'm against their immigration
policy and I'm against this and that. And I think
Trump is really, you know, an evil and which,
which makes everything confusing. Like how is
he responsible of this great accomplishment when
he's so evil? Like, um, what are you talking
about exactly, but it's a way to protect themselves
against, you know, any perception of, uh, being
right leaning for celebrating this progress.
Uh, what do you make of that? Yeah. Well, um,
and again, I think you're, you're, I think there's,
it's definitely a symptom of sort of the, the
situation we found ourselves in with the kind
of the two party system in this whole, this whole
deal where you're sort of afraid to step out
of the, uh, Yeah, the demagoguery that you're
attached to right? But I but yeah, no, you're
absolutely right If this was a if this was the
Biden administration and they were yeah ending
animal experimentation in you know, multiple
You know very extremely large departments within
the executive branch if they were you know If
Biden was taking that kind of action, it would
have been lauded you'd be hearing about it all
over the you know across Yeah, and all the all
the you know through all the vegan Organizations
and all the animal movement, uh, you know podcasts
and everything else And I don't think you really
are where you are hearing about it. Interestingly
enough is on is through uh, the right wing, you
know, uh media outlets, right like uh, you know,
there's the the your your fox news is your uh
daily callers your you know, um, Uh washington
examiners washington all those kinds of outlets
are talking about these issues because of the
framing and because of the people attached to
it now there's some of of course, they have their
biases and that's part of why they're able to
talk about these things in such a complimentary
way. And who knows how they would be responding
to it if the inverse was true, right? If it was
Biden who'd done this. But I think you're right
to point that out and I appreciate that you do.
It's interesting. I really don't think you can
point to And this gets to what you're saying
about how big it really is. I don't think you
can point to another success in the animal movement
right now that is really comparable to what's
going on there. I think it's really the biggest
strides we've made in any area has probably been
there. And you're only really hearing about it
in conservative circles. So what does that tell
you? Yeah, I feel like I'm in a parallel universe.
I mean, this is crazy. But I mean, I think it
makes the case right that again. We're you know
Just because people voted for trump doesn't mean
we're you know, we're Some kind of you know of
horned monsters that are or you know are out
for evil. It's just a different You know, we
have different It's this novel concept that we
have different views and that's okay But yeah,
I think it's it's it's very interesting and and
i'm interested to see Yeah, so really the work
that we're doing with the over force institute
is really trying to Make that movement make yeah
that show that that concern from the animals
exists on the right because I believe really
believe it does already And coalesce that into
a movement that is tangible and that we can really
you know You can point to so that so that this
is not uh You know a couple years down the road
when this is when we're talking about these kinds
of things again It's uh, it's not so unfathomable
to anybody that that or is that uh that Yeah,
that the right is spearheading. Yeah. X animal
issue. Yeah. When I learned about your organization,
I was so happy. You don't even know. I mean,
I felt like being alone, like commenting on this
issue, this perceived issue. And I kept thinking,
you know, if only there was a more right leading
or at least non -partisan organization that is
interested and has the ambition of mobilizing
everyone on the political spectrum to make changes,
lasting changes, and who are not scared to talk
to conservatives. And to learn that you have
created that organization, you know, just made
me so happy. So yeah, thank you for that. and
you know it's is this should we perceive it you
know the you talked about this being the the
greatest success of the pro -animal movement
i agree with that but does it mean that this
animal rights movement right now in this uh incarnation
is dysfunctional really is this you know is this
success a sign that it has failed at the task
of advancing the animal interests. And I look
at, before this conversation, I looked at some
coverage of political situation regarding animal
rights. And what was highlighted was bans. from
different US states on lab -grown meat, or as
they like to call it, cultivated meat or clean
meat. And they were picking on that, talking
about how conservative states are so evil for
banning this industry. And I feel like you're
missing the point. What are you doing, like trying
to advance the interest of Corporations that
want to play dr. Frankenstein So I don't think
that the the movement has failed but I think
it needs to evolve and I think it needs to start
shifting its perspective and I think one of the
major ways for one of the main things for that
is You know, it's not that every organization
needs to start adopting conservative messaging
or become you know conservative organizations
or appeal to conservatives, but They what they
should do is as groups like yeah, like the Wilberforce
Institute come up and groups like white coat
waste that already exist and these other organizations
that that are are good at talking to the right
and and Are involved with the political, right?
Yeah, I think they need to understand that You
know when we're mission and aligned on the cause
for ending animal suffering We are allies. We're
not you know opponents. We're not yeah, and we
you shouldn't be couching You know your your
partnerships with us and that kind of thing.
I think when you look at You know if you look
at the left This actually kind of goes to some
of those comments you read off, right? You can
tell in the tone of some of them there. There's
this I think there's this idea where maybe maybe
the left maybe the Democratic Party Maybe maybe
your average Democrat voter is more Generally
sympathetic to the animal movement, right? Because
they understand that the animal movement is generally
speaking associated with the left But they're
always going, they always look at it. I think
there's a perception at least that they always
look at it as secondary issues or like, yeah,
yeah, yeah, we'll deal with your issues when
we get to it. And yeah, these whatever social
justice warrior issues are the front, are the
primary issues. And these are the ones we need
to focus on. Whereas we're over here working
on animal issues and we're directly involved
in actually trying to move the ball forward for
animals. Those are your allies on these it's
not it's not these other groups that are dismissive
of the issues that you care about um I you know,
and and we're able to talk about these things
in ways that I think that uh Would be disingenuous
coming from a lot of the groups on the left You
brought up the the the cultivated meat bands,
which i'm actually um, I wasn't I wasn't sure
if you yeah, you got the uh The the frankenstein
comments there and I you know, i'm actually i'm
i'm Uh, you know, and I think everybody at Wilberforce
is for, for, uh, cultivated meat and then, and
moving that technology forward. And we're, um,
but, you know, when we talk about, uh, when we
talk about these bands, I mean, we're able to
talk about this from a free market perspective,
which is where we've always existed, where we've
always, yeah, how we talk about just about every
issue, you know, it's, it is, and it is kind
of to your point, it's kind of, uh, it's disingenuous
for the, you know, these groups to come around
and say, uh, they oppose these bands. And then
they're also anti -capitalist organizations,
right? Like the biggest argument to oppose these
bans is that if you allow for the free market,
if you allow for people to get consumers to make
their choices, then you're not banning these
choices. You're not banning my option as a consumer
to try a new product that is a cruelty -free
version of me, right? That's simply just a free
market argument. And so I think it's actually
a good argument for why it's important to have
our kinds of voices here, because we're the ones
that can make that case. Yeah, I'm not against
cultivating meat in the sense that if it was
available, I would definitely try it and purchase
and add it to my consumption. But what I don't
like is to see this movement, this social movement
sending all of its money, resources to this industry.
It's like, okay, you're a corporation, you want
to offer cultivated meat. Well, do it. I mean,
why put the clothes of a social movement or...
just you want to make profits and you want to
offer a new product. Like, uh, of course it's
ethical and it's good to think about, you know,
the ethics of, um, you know, doing business,
but you're not like a social movement. You're
not an activist movement. You're not part of
that. Um, I think that if you look at most successful
social movements, they were movements that were
driven by religious convictions. That's one point
that were popular movements, non -partisan movements.
I think those are traits that, you know, they
all share. They were not weird movements that,
you know, defended an industry or, yeah, shield
for corporations or... you know, investors, like
it's, it's weird. Like I don't have any, I don't
have money invested in this venture. So why,
why should I be, you know, promoting it? Yeah.
So that's interesting. That's an interesting
perspective. I think of it, um, it's similar
to, well, in some ways it's the, the, uh, the
whole opposition to it is like that where, where
you have, uh, in the industry that people will,
you know, I'll say the big meat industry has
done a really good job of painting themselves
as like farmers right as this is that this is
the pro farming thing and And so they've made
it almost a moral stance to support them when
what you're talking about is not farmers even
even small meat farmers as the as You know as
traditionally understood, right? It's not yeah,
you're talking about something entirely different
And I do think you see more of that but it is
interesting an interesting thing to see on the
on the left in general this sort of Movement
towards you know corporations and the kind of
the sort of pro -corporate stuff that's coming
out. I don't know if you heard your From one
of your your countrymen Neil Young's new song
with the did you hear any of this? He has this
song where it's it's uh singing to uh Bored and
gm, you know, and it's it's a it's a really corny
song It has some kind of dig in there about if
you're a fascist by a tesla like it's it's you
know But I was thinking it's it's the who would
have thought Yeah, so like think it comparing
them to neil young of the 60s and 70s. It's it's
uh It's a wild thing to see that um I I think
sometimes that's uh That's a lot of again where
I think the the importance of getting Sort of
the you know, the perspective we're bringing
to this Involved is that we're really there's
this been this kind of corporate movement that
I think is actually Hurts the animal movement
for that for the left to have kind of bought
into that, you know and I think being you know
giving an alternative to that is something that's
gonna help move things forward as well, too We're
not you know Um, it's all ultimately special
interests that drive a lot of these conversations
and that's that's the kind of thing we need to
get away from for sure Yeah, and I I value consistency,
you know if you are anti -capitalist and you
oppose cultivated meat like I value that Your
consistency at the very least you're not a hypocrite,
you know in your thinking so Uh, yeah, there
is that um, okay moving forward Do you know of
any? new progress, new policies that the Trump
administration will put in place that would benefit
animals. The latest one was about the Navy. So
now we're talking about the military renouncing
animal experimentations. So are you aware of
any more progress? So interesting you brought
the military one. I have an article. I'm pushing
out right now to try to get to get published
that's on on on moving to the To the army and
getting the army to do the same thing the Navy
did and kind of taking this Go army beat Navy
type stance, which I was I was in the army myself
So it's hey, you know It's a it's a sort of point
of pride to me that I want them to be the the
last ones through the door on that but You know,
I I don't know where there's a there's a number
of bills that were We're hoping that move forward
a lot of them deal with with animal experimentation.
Yeah, hopefully that that continues throughout
the. Throughout the the administration throughout
the executive branch, we start seeing more and
more of these departments that are because there
still are departments that are conducting research
or some of the ones that are still better. Yeah,
that have kind of signed up to stop it that are
still doing it in other ways or or their. Yeah,
so there's a lot more work to do there and I
think that obviously there's an appetite to do
it There's You know, I'd like to see that expand
into some things like You know, the USDA has
the agricultural research services, which is
sort of the research arm for It is effectively.
It's the de facto research department of the
big industrial farmers, right? And so they're
conducting cool cool experiments and they're
doing so Solely to to make these the big factory
farms Produce more right and it's not produce
better. It's not improve animal welfare conditions.
It's not improve the food quality It's solely
to just crank out more and I and you know, there's
the level of the You can you can say there's
a free market argument where it's you know, we'll
let them do it Fine, let's say we're doing that.
But why are we paying for it? Why would our tax
dollars go to funding this department? Why can't
the biggest of these companies handle their own
research? Why would we be doing it? So it doesn't
really make sense from a free market level. So
from just a taxpayer perspective at all, it's
just rampant cronyism. So I'd like to see them
kind of get there. I'd like to kind of hope that
Brooke Rollins, who is the ag secretary, can
kind of pick up on these wins and maybe move
that direction as well. But yeah, outside of
that, you know, there's, I know there's a lot
that would like to see happen. I'm not sure where
it's gonna go. What about the subsidies? You
know, the big ag subsidies? Do you think we'll
see some of them being reduced or abolished?
Hope so and that would be you mentioned before
value and consistency and that would be the consistent
approach I actually I don't know if you followed
at all the the one big beautiful bill Act and
the whole debate since doing there. It's another
article I have out for placement right now on
on that and how you know, there's the debate
to be had for sure even within conservative libertarian
circles about the wisdom of of putting a bunch
of money You know a lot of raising the allotments
and spending for the border and military and
that kind of thing. I mean, there's different
approaches But you know that in that thousand
plus page bill There's you know, plenty of those
pages that are just filled up with what I would
call factory farm welfare And it's I mean, it's
really it's it's big ag subsidies. It's uh, you
know these Insurance kind of bailout policies
that they've created too. So it's like there's
one in there one provision that's uh for You
know theoretical unborn Cows that that aren't
born that they pay that yeah make them identity
identity payments for that and it's it's you
know All kinds of crazy stuff and it represents
billions of dollars I think that you know when
we if we're talking about this we're taking kind
of the You know the Rand Paul approach of this
where he said hey look I'm for these cuts, but
the spending is just unacceptable You know, um
and raising the you know, the the ceiling to
five trillion is is crazy, right? Um, well one
way where we you know the case I make in the
article and what I would say in general is uh
Is you know, why don't we look at this area as
one of the places where we can start reducing
that gigantic price tag? That's associated with
this bill so I um You know haven't heard much
about it hasn't seemed to be a top line issue
which is another one of those uh, the magic tricks
of the of the uh, the big ag special interest
but uh But I would like to see, I think draining
the big ag swamp is something that is very congruent
with libertarian thought, with MAGA thought.
And it's something that I hope that we can kind
of, we can move that direction and start making
some real strides there because it's just crazy.
And it's the way it's a lot of what I'm talking
about when I say, you know, it's really our government
that is bolstering the factory farming world.
It's strange because I think One year ago, I
was having a conversation with Robert Griot.
And he's big into protesting big ag lobby and,
you know, infiltrating their meetings and all
of that. And he was talking about how, you know,
animal rights organizations or, you know, vegan
supporting animal welfare laws. was not that
impactful and that the real impact would be to
get rid of those subsidies, get rid of that money.
And I'm so happy to see that this is now part
of the conversation. At the time when I was discussing
this with Robert, I think There wasn't any mention
of that on the news or in political debates and
all of that, but I feel like trump has Brought
this on on the table Yeah, and I think trump,
uh, yeah, so One of the things trump talked about
when he was running for office was uh this the
um revolving door, uh from the from the lobby
is to to uh bureaucrats back to lobby is back
to bureaucrat And and that's you know, that that's
really kind of what he's defined as that that
swamp, right? um, and I think when you You know
and you look at people like like rfk, um who?
you know when he was before he uh Jumped on board
the uh, the trump campaign. He was in his own
campaign He was talking a lot about that kind
of thing and the cronyism, you know, that was
a big focus for him. Um Same with like a tulsi
gabbard who uh, you know, who will talk about
the deep state all the time I think that that
right there, because I get into this a good amount
with people in the animal movement when they're
trying to understand what we're working on with
Wilberforce, people always want to talk about
regulations and bans and that kind of thing.
It's not that I'm against regulations altogether,
but when you create this structure where you
have this entrenched executive branch that's
filled with people who are industry lobbyists.
I brought up Tom Vilsack earlier, but I think
Vilsack for the last, you know, he's a great
example because for the last decade, he's had
two jobs. One of them is head of ag and he did
that for Biden and for Obama. And when he's not
doing that, he's a big dairy lobbyist. I mean,
who's interest do we think he's working for when
he's in that position? You know, when that's
his other job, that's the job he's got to go
back to and that's where he makes his real money,
right? um And I mean you have that that's a that's
a big example, but you have that all throughout
these branches So when you're talking about these
regulations and the ways in which you know There
there's a there's a problem. I think congress
has where they they write very they'll write
uh These thousand page bills and these bills
are uh, you know um It counts out to a number
of special interests, but they do they they also
defer a whole lot of uh Their legislative power
over to these executive branches and so you basically
you take these send it over to these unelected
bureaucrats who come from the industries that
they're supposed to regulate and they write regulations
and when i say i'm against those regulations
i'm the person who's yeah i i i'll get criticized
for that saying i'm not for the animals well
the people who are hurting the animals are writing
those regulations effectively right and so i
i i think yeah a lot of it when you i think that's
that's right to say that the subsidies are a
big part of this um Because here a lot of what
we're doing is just kind of is putting the people
who are already, you know, these these massive
Industrial meat producers these master massive
factory farms, you know gigantic corporations
they have you know a ton of unaccountable Unaccountable
interests in the government and can guide the
way these regulations are made So I think a bigger
thing is like let's stop funding them. Let's
stop bolstering it. Let's stop, you know creating
an environment where we're not just not regulating,
we're actually enhancing the cruelty and the
waste and everything else. Do you feel like you're
having a fight on both fronts with the animal
rights movement trying to gain acceptance and
support and tolerance and also against, you know,
those lobbyists, this industry and the corruption
and the animal exploitation. Yeah, yes and no.
I'll say, you know, on the one side, yes. I mean,
we have these these big powerful interests that
I think are on both sides. And, you know, we
had I mean, the first day we launched. I think
it's just because some of the conservative names
attached to us have been in the space and have
already drawn that ire from these guys. The first
day we launched, we had an attack ad that was
pretty clearly coming from, not an ad, but a
blog that was guessing at what we were and attacking
us from the start. So that stuff's there. We
talked about some of the hostility and the...
That comes from from the from within the animal
movement, but but I'll say also, you know on
the other end of it So we've done now, you know
the beginning of the year we did a Students for
Liberty event called Liberty Con. It's a big
libertarian event very student driven And you
know some of that was temperature -shaking right?
It was our first time, you know We've done a
whole bunch of articles and things but we hadn't
really been out on the ground yet I mean we only
launched back in September, you know, so and
when we when we did it, you know we had No, no
push back. No, you know real like yeah, there's
no one angrily yelling at us or yeah Making yeah
any of the kinds of things you'd worry there
would be There's you know, I can't say everybody
everybody in the yeah at the conference all signed
up But a ton did you know, we had a bunch of
people come talk to us They're very enthusiastic
about a lot of them said what you said, which
is something I've heard Even before launching
this is something I thought myself as kind of
impetus for starting it which is you know, man
I wish something like this had existed for years.
There's always kind of needed something like
this to exist and So, you know, it was super
positive and then the on the flip side of it,
too I went and did you know, this is where we
you and I met you know a panel at Ava the and
What is it? Animal Vegan Advocacy Summit, is
that right? It's always easier to say, Ava. But
I went and did the panel there and honestly,
it was the same kind of thing. It was temperature
taking the other way, right? Like how are we
going to be perceived as we're this conservative
libertarian organization where we have the opinions
that we do and I was worried there was going
to be a ton of blowback. Got none. It was actually
I think there's a whole lot of interest in people
who are From people who are thinking like man,
you know what? It's probably a bad idea that
we've been in a silo that we've been cutting
off the side because now the side is taking over
the you know the whole of American government
if we want to move the needle we need to figure
out how and So there's a ton of people who wanted
to talk to us and we're interested in talking
to us from that perspective. So Honestly, I think
It's been you know I think part of why I get
the privilege of doing this is that I wasn't
really too worried about making enemies. I like
making friends, but I ultimately have enough
of them. I don't need to change what I think
to appease anybody, and I'm not worried about
that kind of thing. But on the other hand, honestly,
it's been a really positive experience. I think
a lot of people get what we're doing and really
They support the idea. I think there's a lot
of conservatives and libertarians out there who
have just, you know, who really have wanted a
kind of ideological home, a place to kind of
point to to say like, no, no, no, I'm this kind
of person. This is this is what I think about
animals. And here's how it here's how it coalesces
with what I think and and my values. And, you
know, it's a really cool thing to be able to
to kind of represent that and to to build that.
Yes, the the event. This is where we meant and
I wish I attended your panel, but I could not.
But I did attend a meetup you organized. It was
called something like a conservative libertarian
classical liberal meetup, something like that.
And it was so funny because there was just a
handful of people and everyone, you know, when
we introduced ourselves, no one was conservative.
I made a joke about that in my panel. I said,
uh, you know, I was like, we had a, we had a
tremendous response, a big, you know, way more
than I anticipated. It was five strong and of
that group, I was, you know, I think there was
like three people who were, uh, you know curious
um Independence you had like it was like there
wasn't no one that showed up was like a card
-carrying uh, mega republican, you know There's
one like kind of quasi libertarian. Yeah, but
but I uh that I mean that was sort of the point
in and of itself, right? Um But I I do think
um Well, yeah, go ahead. But that was yeah, I
was glad you came there. I'm glad that's where
we met and it was uh It's funny. I mean what
I what I what I talked about in the panel with
that was You know that you had over, you know
over a thousand people probably at Ava And of
them there's what you know, maybe three Trump
voters, you know, I mean You know that that's
probably not surprising to people but I what
yeah the case I meant to that was I think it
should be surprising and it's something that
you know Like look, there's there's part of this
where yeah Conservatives and Libertarians we
need to take some ownership and get it. Yeah,
take some active You know, they kind of force
our way into the movement a little bit, right?
Like we need to take some ownership of the causes
that we care about But on the other hand, it's
it's you know, the challenge I threw to the to
the people at the panel was You know, are you
doing what you can? Are you being intentional
about expanding this movement expanding the intellectual
diversity here? Because you know, there really
should be a larger representation than that,
you know Yeah, that's the thing there's a real
bias, you know, a real, first of all, there's
gatekeeping. If you're announced that you're
a conservative, you won't get support like community
support from fellow vegans. And then there's
an intentional, you know, desire not to reach
out to conservatives, like this defeatist attitude
of thinking, oh, but they're conservatives, they
won't care about animals. And then they complain
that conservatives are not more caring about
animals. In the last decades, what kind of actions
have you done? done targeted to conservatives.
Zero. The answer is zero. So if you look at the
landscape of who is vegan and who isn't, and
you see that most conservatives are not vegan,
maybe you have a responsibility in that. Maybe
you're to blame for it. I would point out most
liberals aren't vegan either. but it's uh and
the numbers are different but still but but you
know you you had so you had two conservative
vegans on uh at one point i listened to that
show it was a very good episode and uh the one
of the guests had mentioned that she was in a
um a facebook group of conservative vegans that
was like 1500 people you know and i and this
is another thing i talked about in the um in
my uh In my panel was it was uh, i'm gonna, you
know will before us. We're in a um in a an x
group right a direct message group on x that's
I mean Yeah, pretty substantial. It's pretty
large and it's uh, you know It's called the patriot
animal network and it's a bunch of people who
are probably mostly very You know pro trump mega
republicans. Um, some libertarians in there,
but very very conservative crowd, right? um and
most of them have some kind of involvement in
and uh Yeah, animal welfare. Yeah, a lot of them
do it professionally. Some of them are just like
social media influencers who do, who do a lot
of animal oriented posts. And, you know, we have
this group going on this network and it's, but,
you know, the other thing with that, which surprised
me with that group too, because I did a kind
of an ad hoc poll because I was curious, because
it's not something that's very talked about very
much in that group, but as it turns out, probably
most of them are vegan. Or if not, if not most,
if not, you know, If not most of them, it's close
to the majority of them. Most of the people that
responded certainly were. My question is, why
aren't they going to things like ABA? Why aren't
they involved in these kinds of movements? Like
I said, part of that's on us, on the conservatives
and libertarians. I'm going to do my part to
try to push them out to these events and get
them to take that ownership. These people, they
exist. They are there. They're real. it only
helps the movement for us to get to kind of coalesce
and start working on these animal causes together
for sure. I was scared at the election because
I was thinking now that conservatives have taken
over, there won't be any pro -animal vegan voice
at the table. And so we have stopped ourselves
from making any progress because we have uninvited
ourselves from, you know, the conservative center
of powers. But I was wrong. In fact, I was very
wrong. Because the biggest. I was waiting to
tell you, but you already know. Go ahead. My
other fear around that was that I look at the
Democratic Party and I look at what constitutes
the liberal block, voter block, and I'm thinking
those people will not gain back power for years
to come. They're so disconnected from reality.
and from, you know, the mainstream normal person
in the streets, that, you know, I don't, I'm
not very optimistic about their political prospects.
And I guess, you know, I'm looking at the midterm
election to see if the Republicans will keep
the House because I guess that would be a great
indicator of the political future of the Democratic
Party. So if we invited ourselves from the center
of power, the conservative center of powers,
and we're not there to advocate for animals,
and conservatives will have power for years and
years to come, then we virtually shoot ourselves
in the foot. in terms of progress and advancing
the animal cause. Now, I was wrong. But, you
know, what do you make of this analysis? That's
interesting. I don't know if I'm the best, you
know, political forecaster. I'm as interested
as you are to see kind of what them in terms,
you know, hold and what that what that ends up
looking like. I do I do agree. I think that there's
a that that's, you know, The the Democratic Party
definitely has a problem with being Massively
out of touch. I think man. I don't want to upset
so upset the listeners too much, but I Would
I would recommend to them what you know? Letting
letting their their voters pick their own candidates
would be it would be a good start I don't know
if they've had a real if they've if they've actually
really had a primary election for president in
like 12 years, but No, I Think it's interesting.
I think that Now because of the work of groups
like white coat waste and Because of the willingness
of a lot of the cuz that you know, we've done
a lot of joking and teasing of the the the animal
we've been on this Discussion and also some yeah,
so I think realistic and worthwhile criticisms,
right? But I mean there's there I think there
are a lot of very smart and very intentional
very good people We're in the animal movement
that are also very pragmatic and are seeing this
issue and understanding that you know the left
has this problem and they're they're working
on You know in very sincere and genuine ways
like okay. How do we fix this? How do we extend
these olive branches? How do we how we make how
we improve the situation? And I think that that
work is going to matter and I you know I think
this you know, if you're right if your assessments,
right and and the the the Democrats aren't going
to get anything together anytime soon, and we're
looking at them dealing with a lot of electoral
losses for a while, which I think is a reasonable
assessment for sure, then I think that we should
look at that as an opportunity to build up the
Adam and Lupin in the political right. Happy
to talk to anyone who wants to talk about how
we do that. Yeah, you're very optimistic. Do
you believe that there is a way forward in terms
of bipartisanship in the animal rights movement,
or do you see divisions in the future, you know,
those pragmatic and smart people, and I hope
I'm one of them. You are. Thank you. Separating
themselves from the mainstream animal rights
movement and, you know, just following others,
because I asked the same question to Rabbi Akiva
in a previous episode, and I mentioned, do you
see a future where Jews, vegan Jews, would come
back to the animal rights movement fold? And
he said, no, no, I don't see that. I think we're
going to do our own thing. Makes me feel a bit
sad, but at the same time, I think there is place,
more place for diversity than of opinion and
thoughts for this movement. And maybe, you know,
this united approach is less impactful than maybe
a more divisive one and everyone doing their
own thing. So what do you make of that? Yeah,
I think It's interesting. It's an interesting
question. I think that there's a lot of So I
guess part of this is informed by you know, I
you've probably noticed I always refer to real
forces as conservative and libertarian right
and we have conservatives and libertarians and
that is as close to a Catch -all for the big
tank tent that we're trying who are operating
under here That I that I can get right it was
used you mentioned that the meetup that we did
and I had it Literally called a conservative
libertarian meetup, but then I had it was like
I don't care Yeah, it's like you call yourself
a classical liberal a yeah and cap like every
single designator that I could think of you know
because I wanted to say like is as Widely defined
as we can, you know, yeah, that's who we're looking
for here, right? And and so I think there's something
similar to that Within the animal of it. I kind
of see it the same way where it's like there's
that there's a general caught There's a general
purpose general mission and then a bunch of different
approaches to it a bunch of different ways and
I think You know, I think that can coalesce very
broadly and then work, you know intentionally
very In you know in different channels, right
and sometimes they and collaborating where they
were that where that makes sense, too I think
for you know for Okay, so this is a there's a
magazine called the American conservative right
and That magazine came out during the Bush years
and it was It was actually a reaction to the
Bush presidency, right? It was it was very Anti
-immigration it was very, you know border security.
It was very anti -war and You know the number
the number of these issues that at the time Yeah,
they did it again to kind of protest Bush and
call themselves the American server, right? And
it was very different than what the Republican
Party looked like at the time. But you look at
the Republican Party now, and what they started
writing about then is basically the Republican
Party now, right? It is the Trump era Republican.
It looks exactly like what they were talking
about. And these are actually the guys, incidentally,
who put JD Vance on the map. they reviewed his
book hillbilly elegy and that that's what uh
started the rise of that book and made it a bestseller
and all that all of that so i'm not saying that
the american conservative magazine is the reason
that um that we have now uh yeah the republican
party that we do but definitely they were put
they were they were early in in shaping that
thought and they were working in those channels
to shape that thought um i think i think about
them when i feel like this is like a very uphill
battle and i and i Because I realize that what
we're trying to do really is create a meaningful
segment of the American political right that
cares about animals and that is working intentionally
for animals. We'd love to see it be a real serious
plank of the Republican Party and that kind of
thing. That seems a lot more attainable when
I start thinking about the way in which that
party shifted. So I think that you can use that
example and if you think about the way this movement
is going to grow in shape and the way these paradigms
can shift in not that long of a time. I guess
that's where my optimism comes from on it. Wonderful.
I think those are great words to close the conversation.
Liam, did you want to add something before I
stop the recording? No, I think I covered just
about everything. It was a great conversation.
I appreciate you taking the time to do it. I
would love anyone who wants to find out more
about what we're doing. Check us out at willbeforest
.institute or go to see us on X. It's at willbeforest
.institute. And yeah, also happy to continue
the conversation with anybody if they want to
try to send us an email. I will mention all of
that in the introduction and of course there
will be links in the episode notes for easy access
to all of that. Wonderful. Cut that part out,
that's fine. I'm just editing, just to have a
better flow. Mostly editing my questions. I thought
your questions were great. Yes, yes, but you
know, the execution. Perfect. I think you did
better. You executed better than I did, for sure.
No, no, no. Your answers were great. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Liam, for having accepted
my invitation and answered my questions. And
thank you so much for your precious work. I'm,
again, so happy that you exist. Thank you. Thank
you for yours. I'm excited. Glad to call you
a friend. I'm excited to talk more to you and
yeah, let's keep our conversations going. Definitely
I consider you as a friend too. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.