in our obscurity. In all this vastness, there
is no hint that help will come from elsewhere
to save us from ourselves. These words were spoken
by Carl Sagan and were inspired by the pale blue
dot, a picture of Earth taken by the Voyager
1 space probe from a distance of 6 billion kilometers
or 3 .7 billion miles. In the spirit of that
insight, I asked today's guest, Rabbi Akiva Gersh,
also known as the vegan rabbi, why does God not
intervene to stop the horrors of animal exploitation?
That kicked off a fascinating conversation about
religion and its place in the vegan movement,
the nature of evil, antisemitism, and why does
Rabbi Akiva think that the fight for animal rights
is a holy fight. I am full of admiration for
Rabbi Akiva's tireless work of using religious
arguments to promote compassion for animals in
the Jewish community. Connect with him on Instagram
at veganrabbi or visit his website akivagirsch
.com. Link in the episode's notes. There's this
big problem that we're all aware of in the vegan
community, which is animal exploitation. In terms
of scale, the scale of this horror, it's unimaginable.
There isn't something comparable to think about
the billions of animals and the way they are.
kept in captivity and then also tortured and
killed. So, you know, it's just beyond, it's
a category of its own, this type of horror. But
then, you know, in... religious communities,
and I consider myself a religious person. We
believe in all sorts of supernatural beings,
starting with God, capital G, but also God, small
g, angels, spirits, the list goes on. And sometimes
I ask myself, what are they up to? Why are they
not intervening? Why is heaven, God, whatever,
not doing something? about this horror that is
unfolding. And of course, I can hear the skeptics
say, because they don't exist. That's why they're
not intervening. But what do you make of that
question? A really powerful question. It's a
really good question. And I'll say, please, God,
help me with my answer in answering that question.
Look, as a Jew and in Judaism, we believe and
we teach the very important place of free will,
free choice. And God created this world and God
created creation and God created all these creations
and this wonderful, magnificent, beautiful, gorgeous,
wonderful world that we live in. and gave humans
free choice. And that was both the best idea,
and I think you could even say the worst idea
on some level, with all due love and respect
to God, of course, right? I mean, it was God's
wisdom. God gave us free choice, but God knew.
I mean, as part of the Jewish tradition, I imagine
other religious spiritual traditions as well,
that God knew with free choice, anything can
happen. There's even an oral teaching, it's a
teaching in the Jewish oral tradition that says
that before humans were created that the angels,
basically God asked the angels about creating
humans, you know, as this different kind of creation
and the angels were against it. The angels were
actually against it because of what possibly
could happen as a result of us being in the world
and with our free will and God created us anyway.
So there is great risk in creating A, being with
free choice. But to answer your question, I feel
like it all comes down to that, that God felt
that it was very important that there be one
creature in this world, that being the human
beings, with free choice. Because with free choice
can come incredible and magnificent things, but
of course, unfortunately, the opposite can be
true as well. So right, we're always, maybe not
always, but often whenever there are moments
of great challenge and suffering and tragedy.
We're like, where is God? This would be a perfect
time for God to intervene and save the day. Come
down and swoop down and save the day like some
magnificent movie scene where all the evil people
or doers just get wiped out and good prevails.
That's not the kind of world that God created.
God created a world where humans are in the world
with free will and with free choice. And with
that comes great responsibility. and we are meant
to. I mean the teachings of Judaism and other
traditions as well are filled with moral and
ethical teachings to teach us and to show us
and to guide us how to use that responsibility
and how to use that free choice in the best possible
way. Unfortunately, we the human beings have
not always made the best choices. Sometimes we've
made horrible choices and we continue to make
horrible choices and for some reason we are okay
doing things that cause such great suffering
and pain to other humans and to other creatures.
And so God's role here is not to swoop down and
save the day. God wants us to do it. We're the
ones who are supposed to live the right way.
And if we don't live the right way, then to make
the corrections and to make the fixings in order
to make this world a better place. It's on our
shoulders and our shoulders alone. And so, yeah,
it's painful for anyone who's sensitive and aware
to see the suffering happening in the world.
And we want it to be over in a second. Of course,
we don't care how it ends. We just want it to
be over. But this is the world where humans were
created and humans have free will and we're meant
to use our free will to solve the problems that,
let's be honest, we created ourselves. Sometimes,
unfortunately, it takes a while for us to find
the solutions or to convince people to use the
solutions that have already been found, especially
in the case of how we eat and the food choices
that we make. Is there a place in Judaism for
evil, you know, for the belief that there is
like a devil or something, something demonic?
I often attribute, you know, or let me put it
this way, if there was a evil, I guess the closest
thing to it would be animal exploitation. So
is there a place for that in Judaism? like there's
a lot a lot has been written um about evil good
and evil again connected to human free will uh
over the thousands of years that judaism has
been uh an organized and existing religion in
in judaism we we talk about something called
the which is the evil inclination okay first
of all as you know as a monotheistic uh path
we believe that there's one force only one force
everything's from God. God is the only force
that created and maintains everything in the
world. So that of course brings up the big philosophical
question that was related to your question before,
like how can there be evil in a world that was
created by an all -loving and all -good God?
But there is a place for evil because of free
will. Free choice gives birth to the possibility
of humans choosing the opposite of good. And
we see that. And while we don't have this belief
of any spiritual force really being against God
because everything's on God's side, everything's
within the realm of God, when it comes down to
this world, this physical world that we're in,
yes, we the humans do have the possibility of
choosing evil. We do have this inner kind of
battle between us, between good and evil. We
have this evil inclination, and that could, if
acted upon, that can come out in all different
kinds of ways. You know, selfishness, lack of
compassion and greed, stealing, lying on and
the like. And unfortunately, humans have and
continue to choose that path of selfishness.
And when we look at animal exploitation, You
know, I think there's a lot of things that lead
to that. There's a lot of factors, but I think
one very strong factor is one selfishness, just
focusing on myself. I don't care. I just like
the taste and I want it to be cheap and I want
it to be readily available, you know, and not
thinking about it and not even caring about what
happens behind the scenes, you know, before the
animal is turned into a, you know, a piece of
food. wrapped in plastic and sold in the supermarkets.
I think it's also, in addition to selfishness,
I want to say inability, but maybe a better way
to say it is not yet tapped into ability to feel
the pain and suffering of others, whether those
others be humans or non -human creatures in this
world. And I think also in there, and I've heard
this, is the absurd belief that animals can't
feel pain and suffering like we humans can. So
I think it's also ignorance. It's a lot of different
factors, but all those things that I just mentioned
are rooted in evil, in using free will to choose
the evil path and the evil side and the one that's
not compassionate, that's not... loving and that's
not seeking to bring goodness and justice into
the world. Fighting this evil is not an easy
business. And you know, I've had so many I've
talked to so many activists who have felt, you
know, burned out and tired and depressed from
doing the work of advancing, you know, the vegan
cause and being pro -animal. Is there any teaching
in Judaism that helps us deal with being faced
to that evil and fighting that evil as a weapon
for our well -being and safeguarding our sanity
in this fight? Right, right, which is so important.
It's so important in order not to get burnt out
so that we can continue to do this very important,
and I even call it holy work. Judaism says a
lot about this. You know, Judaism, when you look,
when you go deep, when you go deep, when you
go deep, Judaism at its core, I think we can
say is an activist movement. It's an activist
movement. Why? What is an activist movement?
An activist movement or activist organization
is focused on something that's wrong in the world
or broken in the world and they want to fix it.
They want to solve it. They want to bring wholeness
to where there's brokenness. That's Judaism at
its essence. Judaism is literally all about fixing
the world. There's a concept called Tikkun Olam,
which means fixing the world, literally, which
is an ancient Jewish concept. It's talked a lot
about in the mystical tradition. but also in
the ethics and morals of Judaism, it shows up
a lot. And it's really based on this idea that
the world has a lot of brokenness in it and we're
here to fix it. We can use our free choice. We
keep going back to that theme of free choice
and we can use a free choice or free will to
fix it, but that's what we're supposed to do.
And in Judaism, I think the tools that we can
use to help us not get burnt out, not get overwhelmed,
one is faith. Like the person you mentioned before,
faith is very strong in Judaism. And knowing
that even if I see so much wrong in the world,
first of all, and I'm going to get back to this
in a second, there's so much beauty. There's
so much beauty in the world as well. We can't
forget that. We have to open up our eyes to the
constant. Beauty of the world and the constant
goodness. It's not all evil. It's not all broken.
There's so much Gorgeousness in this world and
it's all from God and God created an incredible
world And we have to really remember that one
for the sake of knowing that you know to recognize
the goodness of this world But also it helps
us in terms of moving on but coming back to the
idea of faith Faith is very strong in Judaism.
Obviously, and it's the idea. Okay, you know
what? This is how brokenness was built into the
world. This is all from God, you know, and God
wants us to do the work to fix it, and God's
with me, right? God's giving me the strength.
My strength comes from God, right? Like King
David says, In Psalms, I'll say it in Hebrew
because it's so beautiful and then I'll translate
it into English. I lift up my eyes to the mountain.
Where does my help come from? My help comes from
God, makers of the heavens and the earth. So
it's constantly, literally daily. constantly
tapping into our faith, right? And from that
faith comes so much, including the strength to
continue on even in the face of challenge and
brokenness. And the last thing I'll say just
for now is that Judaism has built into it the
celebration of life and the celebration of the
beauty of the world. And that happens on a weekly
level, a monthly level, and an annual level,
weekly of Shabbat. Every single week, every seven
days, we pause. We rest on Shabbat, on the Sabbath,
not only to rest from our work, but also to create
space to appreciate the goodness of the world
and the beauty of the world. And the classic
Jewish teaching is for six days of the week,
we're doing our work, we're fixing the world,
we're noticing, we're very aware of, even sometimes
hyper aware of the brokenness, the challenges
of a world, and on Shabbat, On some level, we
stop being activists on Shabbat. Because now
Shabbat is to fill myself back up, is to say,
wow, what a world. What a gorgeous world. Give
myself that rest. I'm not going to try to fix
anything, either physically or figuratively.
And I'm going to tap into the holiness of this
day. And that fills me up for another six days
after that. to keep doing the work. And then
I have another Shabbat. Wow, again, amazing.
I have a day of rest and I feel myself back up.
Wow, and I go another six days, right? And it's
this incredible institution, if you want to call
it that, of reconnecting ourselves, plugging
ourselves back in so that we have the physical
and spiritual strength and ability to keep going
on and not burning out. I feel like Shabbat at
its core is all about not burning out physically
and spiritually and as an activist. That's a
priceless priceless tool. You mentioned King
David and There's this recent TV series that
was released on Prime video I don't know if you
if you were aware of it. It's about King David
and I guess it's the first time I've watched
something, you know a Judaic story adapted to
the movie format. This was the first time for
me watching Dange. Did you watch it? No. Too
bad. I wish I had your feedback on that. But
something interesting in that TV series, I noticed
as a vegan, of course. is, you know, they talk
a lot about, you know, animal sacrifices and
they do lots of animal sacrifices, but they never
show, you know, the animal itself being sacrificed.
You know, they always cut to the scene of here's
the meat or whatever, the burnt sacrifice. And
I found it very interesting that they would censor
that part. you know, and not expose their audience
to it. You know, they show armies battling with,
you know, people dying left and right. But, you
know, the sacrifice of the lamp that they don't
show. What do you make of that editing and how,
you know, they perceive people to be more sensitive
to showing a lamp being sacrificed to armies
killing each other. That is very interesting.
Yeah, I think I think it's a reflection of human
society in our modern -day world that people
are disconnected from what really happens behind
the scenes when they choose to eat animals and
they don't want to see that because they don't
want to know or they don't want to be reminded
maybe they heard about it saw something once
or twice even or three times but they want to
forget about it and to be shown that it's a reminder
of you know even though that's in the context
of you know ancient sacrifices which we don't
do anymore it's still a reminder of you know
the that yeah it's intense to take an animal's
life for your own personal needs whether it's
a sacrifice or or for food is an intense thing
and you should think about that and you should
be aware of that before you do it and people
don't want to do that people just want to eat
the steak or the hamburger and nothing about
what had to happen you know before that and that's
that's a problem Um, I, I met people in the past,
you know, um, who, you know, they would, they
would only chicken if it was like in the form
of like a patty, but no bones. Cause if they
saw bones, they wouldn't be able to eat it. And
it's like, you know, um, and yeah, I think it
is a reflection of, of the disconnect today and
the real kind of like, don't tell me I don't,
I didn't see it. I don't know about it. I don't
have to think about it. And then I can just keep
doing whatever I want. I'm sure there's a big
Jewish audience, you know, watching that TV series.
What is the state of, you know, progressive veganism
in the Jewish community? I know that, you know,
when I look at Buddhists, I wish there were more
vegan Buddhists. And I feel strongly that this
is the natural way to be a Buddhist, you know,
being vegan. that there should be more vegan
Buddhists than there are right now. Do you have
the same feeling? Yes, I do. I wish there were
more Jewish vegans and specifically I wish there
were more Orthodox Jewish vegans. As you might
know, there's different kind of denominations
in the Jewish world. The three main ones are
Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. I'm part of
the Orthodox Jewish community. um and definitely
there's not that many orthodox jewish regans
out there and i wish there were more for sure
and my you know long story short i i was always
jewish but i didn't grow up religious i grew
up very secular in a secular family and a secular
lifestyle in america i now live in israel um
but uh as a result of a spiritual journey in
college, searching for spiritual meaning and
spiritual traditions, eventually that took me
full circle to my own Jewish tradition, inspired
actually by the environmental and animal welfare
teachings that I discovered in Judaism at the
age of 19 and 20, which nobody told me about.
I was already at that point vegan. I went vegetarian
when I was 18, vegan when I was 19. I'm now 49.
So this fall, God willing, I'll be celebrating
30 years of being vegan. And it was an environmental
studies major and the environmental movement
was a big part of my life. And I never knew anything
about Judaism and the environment or Judaism
and animal welfare. And when I started to discover
that, I'm like, really? Judaism has what to say
about this? And that really opened up the door
for me to explore more of my Jewish roots, eventually
more of the spiritual tradition in Judaism. And
that's when I really got interested and then
started learning and took on an Orthodox traditional
lifestyle. For me, Judaism supports veganism
100 % in very strong and powerful ways. So for
me, I see, I mean, dozens if not hundreds of
sources in Judaism that support going vegan today
because of the horrors of the factory farming
world and the negative impact of eating an animal
-based diet. So yeah, I see it as a very Jewish
thing. Unfortunately, not that many, not enough
Jews. are vegan, more out of the Orthodox community,
most if not all of the Jewish vegans that I know
are not in the Orthodox community, a few of them
are, but more in the conservative and reform,
which are, you know, tend to be labeled as more
kind of open to and interested in kind of progressive
movements and causes and the like. But all that
is rooted in the concept I brought up before,
Tikkun Olam, fixing the world. It's so Jewish.
If I'm choosing the way that I eat because I
care about the world and I want the world to
be a better place, both for the planet and for
all the creatures and creations living on this
planet, that's... that's tikkun olam that's fixing
the world that's because i want this world to
be a better place so it's very jewish but uh
still not enough jews are choosing that path
in my uh opinion i want to know more about what
you discovered exactly i uh recently watched
your teaching um about that dairy holiday and
you can tell me more about it and um you were
quoting that um jewish scholar who lived Like
a long time ago and was already you know thinking
and preaching about he was a rabbi. About vegetarianism
and the the suffering of animals and i was really
surprised like positively surprised about his
existence and i was really not aware of that
you know happening during that time so. Yeah,
please tell me more. Yeah, so basically, you
know, Judaism is filled with laws and values
and ethics and teachings. And within the laws
of Judaism are laws that obligate us to show
compassion for animals obligate us. It's not
a choice, it's not a suggestion, it's an obligation.
There's laws on the books that you cannot cause
unnecessary pain and suffering to animals, that
you need to show compassion. And, you know, we've
been around for over 3 ,000 years, so we have
lots of books. You know, there's the book, the
Torah, the Five Books of Moses, but then there's
also all kinds of commentaries and other books
and anything from Jewish law to Jewish mysticism
and Jewish philosophy and everything in between.
And so many Jewish rabbis, leaders, and writers
have talked about throughout the generations
about this, about compassion for animals. One
very famous one is Rabbi Moshe Kordavero, who
lived 500 years ago in Israel. He wrote about
that if someone disparages, if someone shows
disrespect to an animal, what they're really
doing is disrespecting God, because God created
that animal, which is a very powerful teaching.
The class that you were referring to specifically
about the holiday we recently had called Shebuot,
which is a holiday that we commemorate and celebrate
the giving of the Torah Mount Sinai over 3 ,000
years ago, eventually became known as like the
dairy holiday. It's not an obligation to eat
dairy, but because Torah is compared to milk,
you know, for various reasons, one, because milk
gives life to newborn animals. So to Torah gives
life. So there's no obligation whatsoever to
eat dairy on Shavuot, but it became a custom.
Judaism, like other traditions, is filled with
customs as well, not obligations, but customs,
which is a beautiful thing. Customs are beautiful
traditions. But when a tradition gets in the
way of an obligation, in this case eating dairy
which causes incredible and immense pain and
suffering both physically and emotional to God's
creatures to eat those foods on a holiday that
celebrates the giving of the Torah by God makes
no sense whatsoever. We're celebrating, you know,
our tradition through causing pain and suffering
to God's creatures. That just doesn't make sense.
So the rabbi whose teaching I shared in that
class, his name was Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Kulk.
He lived from 1865 to 1935 and he was very, very
holy visionary of a man. You know, we don't have
prophets these days anymore, but if we did he
would be included in them. He really saw the
world in a very different way and he wrote quite
a lot. He wrote a lot in general, but included
in his teachings he wrote about animal welfare
and about eating animals and how the original
diet that was given to humanity in the Garden
of Eden through Adam and Eve, which was a purely
plant -based diet, as it says in chapter one
of Genesis, verse 29, that that was the ideal,
that that was the ideal, and that one day we're
meant to return to that ideal. And so he wrote
about that, he brought it into his own life,
and yeah, he was one of the few rabbinic leaders
to really talk about it in such a direct way.
talk to Jews about all of that. What is their
first reaction? I get a lot of pushback, a lot
of pushback, specifically with all due love and
respect to my Orthodox, my fellow Orthodox Jews,
especially from Orthodox Jews. They say a lot
of the things that they say are the same things
I've heard from many people. many times. Well,
God let us eat animals so there's no problem.
It's kosher. That's all I care about. That's
all I have to care about is that it's kosher.
My rabbi does it. That means I can do it. My
rabbi eats it so I can eat it. These are classic
kind of responses and I always have my answers
that I share back with them. Yeah, it's very
much kind of rooted in like I'm allowed to so
I do. Right? God let us eat animals, so I do.
So don't tell me I can't or I shouldn't. And
my response almost always is, it's yes, obviously,
God gave us permission, right? Like we just said
that God gave a purely plant -based diet in the
Garden of Eden. That lasted until the generation
of the Flood and the generation of Noah, after
which, you know, after the Flood God then changed
the diet and allowed humans to eat animals, the
main word there is allowed, not obligated them.
And so I always share back with them, it's like,
yes, we do have the permission. Clearly, Judaism
allows us to kill animals for food, right, in
a very specific way, something called shchita,
which is kosher slaughter, but we're allowed
to, we're allowed to for sure. But if we're doing
that in a way that's going against other obligations
of the Torah, like not causing pain and suffering
to animals. So what are we doing? We're doing
something that's, you know, permissible, but
in the process we're breaking a law that's an
obligation. So how do you justify that? I don't
really usually ever hear a good answer to that
question. I'll be honest with you. You mentioned
that this work of confronting people and convincing
them to become vegan and care about animals,
you consider that holy. What did you mean by
that? Good question. I think it's connected to
something you guys said before, is that of all
the things that we do as humans, I really believe
that our food choices, what we eat, has the greatest
impact in so many different ways. on the world,
on the planet, on creation. What I eat will impact
the earth. It will impact the soil, the water,
the atmosphere. It'll impact other humans. It'll
impact other creatures, of course. It'll impact
my health. It'll impact my family. It's pervasive.
It's one of the few things that we do in our
lives that has such a... diverse and wide -reaching
impact and so when we and in addition to that
we have you know we have desires for good tasting
things and tavot as we call them in Hebrew like
lusts and desires and it's not always easy to
to hold ourselves back and to to not give into
them especially if they're permissible right
I'm allowed to eat a steak I'm allowed to eat
burgers right I'm allowed to have a barbecue
with you know meat hot dogs and the like. And
when we overcome that desire for the sake of
a value that takes a lot of strength, that takes
a lot of self -discipline, and when that action
of ours, when that change is for the sake of
creating a better world, which is the ultimate
mission and vision of Judaism, that's holy. That's
holy. You're sanctifying life. What does it mean,
holy? In Judaism, something that's holy is something
that's been sanctified. Why is Shabbat holy?
Because it's been sanctified. It's being elevated.
And we're supposed to do the same thing with
the world. We're supposed to sanctify this world.
We're supposed to make this world a dwelling
place for holiness, for godliness. And when we
choose actions, for the sake of that, with that
in mind, with that intention in order to make
this world a more godly place, that's holy work.
Do you feel like the vegan community is investing
enough in supporting religious, not movements,
but organizations, activists, because I feel
like the best argument we can make for people
to become vegans is a religious argument. I think
that to make real change in this world, we have
to focus on the religious aspect of this whole
equation. I feel like we focus too much on the
economic aspect of it. And I see, you know, lots
of street activists and so on making the ethical
argument for veganism. But then, like you mentioned
before, if I take my moral, ethical cues from
my rabbi, who are you to tell me, you know, what
is ethical or not? Of course, we are all capable
of, you know, being independent in our thoughts
and mind, but there are people we consider moral
authorities in our life. And so why aren't we
doing more to reach those people, to support
those, you know, Rabbi, Imam, Buddhist monks
and priests that make the the argument for veganism?
Another very good question. I think that a lot
of people, I mean, I think we clearly see it
in our world today. A lot of people are turned
off to religion. People, even though I think
we religious people see the real beauty and even
purity of religion, we're still human beings
and not everyone who is, quote unquote, religious
or a member of a certain religious path. and
community lives up to the values and the highest
values of that religious community and path.
And I think people today, a lot of people are
turned off to religion and by religion because
they see it as something that has been corrupted
and they see a lot of corruption in religions.
And even though that's not the essence of religion,
that's human error. on the part of religious
people. They kind of, you know, put it all together
and they throw out religion. So I think there's
a weakened interest in religion in general in
our society today. And even if, you know, you
were to target the people who are connected to
religion, they often use those same arguments
as like, where God created us as higher than
animals, we're allowed to use anything we want
in this world. We're better than the animals.
So I don't have to think about this stuff. So
don't tell me that I have to. And they have their
own religious arguments, you know, against our
religious arguments. So it makes it very challenging
in that sense. But I think it's easier for most
activists today to hold on to the ethical arguments,
and that the religious arguments, though in my
eyes, they're one and the same. Where do ethics
come from? Ethics are rooted in these religious
traditions. But yeah, and I'll be honest with
you, I think there's not that many religious
vegans out there, there's not enough for them
to be known about, seen, heard. And so therefore
their time, energy and resources are going to
be invested elsewhere. Yeah, I'm thinking more
and more, you know, what are we doing, creating
fake meat in laboratory when there's this whole
lane of developing the religious argument for
veganism, that it is, you know, unexploited and
pretty much neglected. And, you know, all the
resources and funding goes to playing Dr. Frankenstein
with, you know, lab -grown meat. Yeah, I agree.
I'm totally on that page with you. I find it
so interesting. You know, the way I look at it,
he says, God created a world filled with food,
filled with a diversity of colorful and and beautiful
and nourishing and delicious food, why are we
going into a laboratory investing tons of money
and tons of energy and resources, right? This
is an energy -intensive process that they are
trying to perfect for the market. He said, why,
why are we doing, we can take all that money
and put it to education, into outreach, into
all kinds of things. And we don't need that.
We, I can get my health and nutrition from things
that are already just simply growing in the world.
I'm also a bit confused by it. Yeah. I'm, I,
I used to look at this lab grown meat as, um,
you know, using religious terminology, the Messiah,
you know, I was thinking this will come, this
will be developed and then it will be the end
of animal exploitation. Nowadays, I'm thinking
more and more that it won't, for many different
reasons. I think that this fight is a religious
fight, this fight is a cultural fight, this fight
is a psychological fight, societal fight, not
an economic one. changes. We will make and there
has been tremendous changes on that front, but
caused by, you know, economic pressure, but it
won't resolve the problem, you know. But yeah,
that's my opinion. Okay, let's talk about antisemitism.
I think we cannot just, you know, have a conversation
about Judaism and just, you know, forget about
this, go over it. I did an episode on anti -Semitism
in the vegan community. And I was thinking of
you and how this must complicate your work in
reaching out to to Jews because, you know, you're
trying to make the religious argument for veganism
and you're trying to influence Jews to adopt
a vegan lifestyle. But then they look at the
vegan community and there isn't, you know, a
welcome party, you know, waiting for them quite
the opposite. So this must really complicate
your work. Very much so. Very much so. Um, already
before October 7th, 2023 and way more since.
Um, I remember years ago, I wrote this little
booklet about Judaism and the environment and
included in that was about animal welfare and
our food choices. And I tried to put it, excuse
me. I tried to get into, um, religious bookstores
in New York and the first story I went to, the
first thing that the book owner said is like,
oh, is that that PETA stuff? I saw their advertisement
comparing, you know, animal suffering to Holocaust,
you know, victims. That was horrible, right?
So right away, you know, there was this negative
kind of perspective on the movement, you know,
how dare they take something that's so sensitive
to us Jews and use it in their campaigns. Right?
That was years ago. That was like 25 years ago,
if not more. But more recently, you know, more
and more activists have been showing up and doing
protests at something you might be familiar with
called Kippot, which is a ritual that Jews do
before Yom Kippur, which is all about asking
God for forgiveness. Most of the Jewish world
does it with money that then gets given to those
who need it. Some, a minority, but unfortunately
enough, in the ultra -orthodox community, you
do it with chickens, live chickens, and they
wave them around their head, and then they slaughter
them right there on the spot, and it's a whole
mess. It's a horrible, horrible mess, and me
as a Jew, I'm totally against it, and many Jews
are against it. They can still continue to do
it. What happens is that oftentimes, you know,
non -Jewish animal welfare activists will show
up at these places and they just are screaming
at them and they start you know being so offensive
to them and so these orthodox jews see them as
like the representation of the animal welfare
movement and the vegan movement and they're just
like see look how they act look what they're
doing to us this is anti -semitic they're they're
coming out here and they're getting involved
with our religious rituals and things like that
so that's just another example which has been
a big turned off, at least in the Orthodox world.
But by far the greatest damage to Jewish vegans
and the general vegan world and movement has
been post -October 7th. I've talked to countless
Jewish vegetarians and vegans since then. and
they just told me how they've been ostracized
by their vegan community. Many of these Jewish
vegans, their vegan community was a bigger part
of their life than their Jewish community was,
right? Their veganism is so important to them
that it was their vegan community that they went
to for gatherings and for events and social connections.
And then post October 7th, they see their vegan
friends posting all kinds of horrible stuff about
Israel. There's always that fine line between,
you know, criticism of Israel, anti -Israel,
and anti -Semitism. And these people are, you
know, these people are good people, you know,
really open people wanting to make the world
a better place. And they just felt completely...
I mean, on some level, people would say to me,
like... I know saying duped is a harsh and a
hard word, but they felt really almost tricked,
traumatized by the hate that was coming out of
their fellow members of their vegan community.
And they lost it all. Many of these people lost
it all. Either they were kind of like pushed
out or had to leave literally for their mental
health. It was very, very traumatic and I've
talked to many people. About a month or two into
the war, I opened up a Zoom webinar, you know,
for free for people just to join. dozens and
dozens of Jewish vegans came on, and everyone
said the same thing, everyone talked about the
same thing. You know, this person, I know that
for 15 years we've been so close in the vegan
community, we've done such great work together,
and now I see what they're saying, what they're
sharing, what they're posting, it's like, it's
horrible, it's traumatic. So yeah, anti -Semitism
in the vegan community has been felt tremendously
since October 7th, and it's caused a lot of Jewish
vegans to go in there. I'll be honest with you,
it's very unfortunate to lose trust in the general
vegan world. Obviously it's not everyone, but
it's been enough people and enough times that
they feel like they're not sure if those connections
can ever be rebuilt. And I guess you can say
the silver lining of that, the benefit of that
is that the Jewish vegan community has gotten
really much more inner and stronger as a result.
And our kind of inner ties and connections have
become much stronger. And I've become connected
to people, other Jewish vegans, who maybe I wouldn't
have as a result of the anti -Semitism that has
come out since October 7th. So it's unfortunate.
It's real. It's there. It's visible and it's
felt. And yeah, it's sad to say, but I don't
know if it's reparable. I think this might be,
you know, one and done thing that Jewish vegans
are not going to look back to even try to repair
that because it's been so hurtful and so damaging.
Yeah, that was my my next question. What is the
solution to that? And is there a path to, you
know, reuniting and and and having a more, I
guess, healthier unity in the vegan movement,
is there a way to forgive, not forget, but to
amend those offenses and have a new united front
in terms of pro -animal movement Or is the solution
or is the path forward to create new organizations
this time that will not reflect those anti -Semitic
positions? So what is it? I think it's continuing
separately, doing the similar work, but doing
it separately. I'm doing it within a Jewish context
with other Jews. That's a safe space. It's a
safer space. It's a supportive space and just
too many people have seen too many things and
heard too many things. I think to ever really,
you know, kind of go back, you know, of course
that's not everybody, but I think it's enough
people and I just, I've heard it so many times.
I mean, myself, we've all, those of us in the
Jewish vegan world, we've seen it so many times,
like big... vegan influencers, you know, they
start wearing the the kaffir and saying all kinds
of anti -Israel stuff and and uh you know when
their whole page was just about like vegan food
all of a sudden it's about politics now and they're
bringing up Israel and they're saying this about
Israel and that about Israel and it's a big turn
off. I've went at the beginning of the war you
know my vegan rabbi social media page up until
October 7th 2023 I only talked about veganism
I never talked about anything else on it on purpose.
And then after October 7th, I had to. I had to
talk about Israel. I had to talk about what's
going on. And I lost tons of followers. I lost
probably hundreds of followers, got all kinds
of horrible either comments or messages. Every
now and then I still get them. But what I also
saw is all these influencers using their platforms
and their pages to spew a lot of hate. against
Israel, against the Jewish people. And that was,
I mean, people I really, really liked and really
looked up to. I had to unfollow them because
I couldn't see it anymore. You know, there's
this one, I wouldn't say his name, but this is
one vegan chef. He's got like a million followers
on Instagram. And all of a sudden he's like showing
up at the cafe and saying all this stuff. Like,
who are you? Like, what do you even know? What
did you even know about any of this before October
7th? You know, so you watched a few TikTok videos
and now you think, you know, you know everything.
It's very disturbing. It's very disturbing. So
it's very painful. And I'm not sure in our generation,
you know, that there's going to be much healing
there. So we're just continuing our work, you
know, on our own and doing it together in our
way. You mentioned comparisons to the Holocaust.
Now, I believe that what Peter did with that
Holocaust campaign was in pretty bad taste, and
that is a euphemism. But at the same time, there
is work, you know, for instance, the book, An
Eternal Treblingham. And, you know, there is
the fact that you can... or at least, you know,
I've done it and other activists have done it
to say, you know, there is a animal Holocaust,
you know, I'm not going to put pictures of Holocaust
victims in front of, but, you know, just saying
it. Do you think that also is offensive to the
Jewish community? What do you make of the book,
An Eternal Treblinka, if you know about it? I'm
aware of it, yeah. It's interesting. I 100 %
understand why Jews take offense to it, without
a doubt. I get it. The Holocaust is still very
recent in Jewish history, just about 80 years
since the end of World War II and the end of
the Holocaust. Many of us have family members,
you know, none that we met obviously, but that
we've been told about that were murdered in the
Holocaust. My own family on my mother's side,
her parents were from Poland. They got out before
the war, but more than half of their families
were murdered in the Holocaust. So like we grew
up with this stuff. Like we grew up with the
Holocaust like fresh in our minds. So I get why
Jews have that reaction. I think they're 100
% right. I personally, as a vegan, I get it.
I get the comparison because from the perspective
of the animals this is, and this is very controversial
what I'm about to say, it's worse than the Holocaust.
The numbers are far greater like you said at
the beginning. We're not talking about millions,
we're talking about billions and that takes nothing
away from the tragedy. and the horrors of the
Holocaust. It takes nothing away from that. But
at the same time, when we look at reality from
the perspective of the animals going through
the factory farming world, it is an absolute
Holocaust. From the day that they're forced to
be born to the day that they're forced to be
killed. So I do agree that it's a Holocaust from
their perspective on a magnitude that we can't
even imagine. And so I personally do not find
a fence in the comparison. I don't really talk
about that opinion of mine because almost even
other Jewish vegans that I'm connected to, they
do take offense to it and I understand that and
I respect it. So I think I'm a minority opinion
on that. But I think if we understood what's
going on in the factory farming world and what
these animals are going through from their perspective,
what they're going through, That maybe maybe
we have a higher chances of people opening up
their hearts and making changes So I I get Peter's
tactics I get there like in your face intense
like because it's real It's it is intense and
it's actually happening every single second.
So I I actually understand them why they did
that Do you think that we should be at a certain
level? I'm comfortable with offending people
in our activism. Yes, I do. People have to be
shaken out of their comfort zones. And there's
lots of causes. There's lots of issues. I'm sure
there's causes and issues that I need to be shaken
out of my comfort zone for sure. Right. I'm sure,
you know. People can come up to me and say things
about my lifestyle choices. Where about my clothing
from? You know, I don't buy all like, you know,
sensitive and aware and conscious and organic
and handmade clothing. I know my clothing comes
from factories and that's a real problem. So,
you know, I'm not perfect. None of us are perfect.
We live in a very problematic world in terms
of striving for perfection in our lifestyle choices.
And I'm aware of that. But yes, I think people
need to be shocked sometimes, not all the time
because then you'll lose them. But I think shock
activism is proper, in the right measure, at
the right time and in the right way. Because
people, you know, sometimes I, you know, I might
be like, you know, on my phone and I'm on Instagram
and I see, you know, Half of the things I see
on Instagram have to do with veganism just because
of the algorithm. Um, and so I'll see a video
or a picture of animal suffering. And if someone's
next to me who eats animals, I'll show them that
right away. They got freaked out. Why did you
show that to me? I'm like, hello, this is what
you eat. You know, what are you talking about?
So I think there's absolutely a space for that.
Uh, we need a multi kind of, uh, multifaceted
approach, but I think that's one that. It's important
to use, again, in the right way and in the right
measure at the right time. You said you're based
in Israel. What is the state of animal welfare
and animal rights in Israel? Horrible, just like
most other places. There is a relatively large
vegan and vegetarian community here. statistics
come out and say that Israel per capita is one
of the most vegan countries in the world, which
is really nice to know. And about five percent
of the population is vegan. If you include vegetarians,
it goes up to 13 percent, which is pretty high.
But at the same time, it's a meat heavy society
and animals here are treated just as poorly as
in other places. So unfortunately, you know.
not much good to share when it comes to that.
I feel like in Israel, but I think this is happening
globally as well, like the vegan movement is
growing, awareness is growing, but at the same
time, the pace at which people eat animals is
not slowing down. If anything, it's kind of growing.
And so I feel like these two movements are growing
simultaneously and parallel to each other. So
yeah, so it's nice to see the vegan expansion
in Israel, but it's upsetting to see what's happening
in the animal agriculture world, that it's not
very enlightened and it's just as bad as other
places. Five percent is a gigantic voting bloc.
Why aren't we seeing more pro -animal... progress
reflected in Israeli politics? Or are we that
I'm not aware of? Very good question. I'll say
two things. One, there have been successes along
the way in terms of animal rights and animal
welfare in Israel. Certain things having to do
with fur and certain kind of animal, I hate saying
the word animal products, but you know, food
that comes from animals, food products that come
from animals, live transports. I believe if I
remember correctly there was a law that was recently
passed that by a certain year in the now for
our future that that will be banned in Israel.
I have to look that up again to make sure that
that's correct but I remember seeing that. But
it's an interesting question you're asking because
as you can imagine, politics here in Israel are
very different than politics elsewhere because
we're dealing with so many security issues and
politics here are very security driven. And so
it's not, you know, like in other places where,
you know, there's all these, you know, you're
voting for someone because of what they say about
the environment and what they say about this
cause and that cause. It's like literally on
some level, especially during wartime, it's like
a single issue political It's like, what are
you going to do for security? We're constantly
facing real intense security challenges. So what
are you going to do to make the country stronger
and ensure our survival? So because of that,
other issues get a back burner. And while there
are members of the Israeli parliament that do
care about these issues and do push forward legislation
that does happen, I know a couple of politicians
over the last few years who are members of the
Knesset, who were vegan, which was amazing. But
still, it doesn't get spoken about very much.
It's really about, again, how you fight our enemies
in the most effective way possible. And it really
kind of takes up most of the space here politically.
Yeah, that's really interesting. Sorry for being
unfamiliar, but is it a proportional democracy
system in Israel? Is there a place for smaller
parties to win positions in the government or
even elect MPs in the Knesset or something like
that? There is on paper. Yes, absolutely You
know, it's not a two -party system. It's a multi
-party system It's dozens of parties when you
go to vote here in Israel. You literally see
dozens of choices Which on one level is great,
but most of them never passed the threshold.
So it's kind of pointless Doesn't really have
an impact and and still it's usually the same
kind of seven or eight political parties that
make it through. And then they're the ones who
have to kind of scramble around to make a coalition.
Right. You know, the winning party gets the first
chance to make a coalition. If they do great.
If not, then the second one gets to and the second
place is usually, you know, the opposition to
the to the to the leading political party. But
it does create space. And there are, you know.
political organizations based on all kinds of
issues, single issues as a result. But again,
the problem is that they don't make it through
the threshold so they don't have the impact that
they're seeking. And they're never ever involved
in the coalition, if they even get through the
threshold, which they usually don't, except to
get a certain number of votes to get into the
parliament. So a lot of people look at it as
wasted votes. Even if they care about that single
issue, they're like I'm not gonna vote because
they're not gonna get through I rather give my
vote to this party who I believe in how they're
gonna approach security issues that always goes
back to that so it is very democratic in that
sense, but in the end when when the coalition
is coalition is actually built it's there's not
a lot of if any of these single -issue parties
represented Yeah, I'm asking that because I The
bet here in Canada is to get, you know, proportional
democratic system in order to get power for pro
animal party and make, you know, more progress.
Yeah, listeners will understand, you know, I've
had many conversations about that. mostly with
Liz White, who's the incredible leader of the
Animal Protection Party of Canada. Okay, I want
to end the conversation, Rabbi, with something
else you're specialized in, which is matchmaking.
And I want to hear how you got into that and,
you know, What is your rate of success? And maybe
if you have, you know, stories to share about,
you know, happy stories about that, I would love
to hear them. Great. Yeah. So I never thought
I'd get into matchmaking after my vegan rather
work. You know, the platform I started about
four years ago, I've been doing Jewish environmental
education for over 20 years. And within that,
again, focus on animal welfare and veganism.
But really with the creation of Vegan Rabbi,
it was definitely the most focused work and outreach
that I've done in my whole life. And it's become
a big part of my life and a growing part of my
life. And already within the first year of creating
Vegan Rabbi, singles who are in my network...
you know followers of mine on social media they
got started getting in touch with me one after
the other after the other asking hey i'm jewish
vegan single looking for somebody do you happen
to know anyone can help me and at first i'm like
what do i know about any of this i'm not a matchmaker
i'm not you know and then i just kept hearing
from people i mean wait a minute there's something
happening here right uh the jewish world is very
much focused on matchmaking but maybe there's
nothing specifically for jewish vegan vegetarian
singles and I did some scouring around the internet,
found nothing, and I decided I'm going to do
something. I had no background, no experience,
but I'm going to try. And I built a database
and I invited people to join it. And shortly
after that, a friend of mine built like a free
matchmaking website. So I kind of uploaded my
database members to his platform. And then shortly
after that, I met a woman named Aliza Ben Shalom.
who was the star of the Netflix show Jewish Matchmaking.
She had recently moved to the town I live in
in Israel. And I told her, this was before the
Netflix show came out, but I knew she was a matchmaker.
And I told her about what I was starting to get
into. She was like, wow, we should talk. And
I told her about what I was doing. She actually
used to be vegan, interesting enough. She's no
longer now. But I told her what I was doing and
she invited me to train with her. I'm like, wow,
I get to train with this top matchmaker. That's
amazing. So I did a whole training with her.
And then she invited me to join her team and
her staff. which I did for over a year and a
half. I recently left a couple of months ago,
but basically that was just incredible experience
learning the ins and outs of the, of the world
of matchmaking and dating coaching. And that's
become a part of my life as well. And so, you
know, specifically since, um, leaving working
with her, I've been kind of like investing my
energies more again, uh, in my niche. in the
Jewish matchmaking world for Jewish, vegan, vegetarian
singles. I have a whole network of hundreds and
hundreds of people and people reach out to me.
You know, they heard about me, they get my number
from somebody, they tell me their story, they
share their bio and ask if I know of anybody.
So, you know, I have lots of people in my network,
lots of people I keep in mind and then there's
some people I work with, like actually like in
a very official one -on -one way in terms of
whether it's dating coaching or full -on matchmaking.
It's an ancient Jewish art, Jewish matchmaking,
and you know, it's really based on these values
that we're talking about and I understand it
because I was in the same place many, many years
ago when I was dating and looking, you know,
to meet someone and looking to get married that
I wanted to, one of the top, if not the top things
on my list that was so important to me is that
someone who shares this lifestyle with me, shares
these food choices and lifestyle choices with
me and these you know, the concern for the environment,
for animal welfare. That was very, very top of
the list for me. And I met, you know, different
women, different great women, but not always
did they share that passion and that compassion
until I did, and that was my wife. And so the
singles who I'm connected to with now or work
with, I very much understand where they're coming
from. Because again, I went through that. I was
in that same place many years ago. And just for
me, it's just, you know, to bring two people
together is an incredible thing in and of itself.
And to bring two, you know, people with shared
values about the environment and about the animal
welfare and about human health and protection
of our world is even for me, even greater. So
it's, you know, to build, to help two people
come together, who will then build a home based
on those values and raise children with those
values. It's just, you know, talk about trying
to change the world. It's, it's, it's one of
the ways, you know, to make the world a better
place. I know I said, you know, last question,
but I lied. So you mentioned shared values. We
often hear about chemistry, how important it
is to have chemistry, but I feel not enough about
shared values. Can you comment on that? Yeah,
look, you know, again, I talk to all kinds of
people. I'm in touch with vegan singles, or have
been, or currently am. Like, I can only date
a vegan. Only date a vegan. There's no way, you
know. And then I know vegan singles who are like,
you know, ideally she's vegan, but if she's vegetarian,
that's fine as well. And even people like, you
know what, I'm very open, you know, as long as
we match up in other ways. And hopefully she'll...
come towards my side you know or vice versa like
a girl talking about a guy so I meet all kinds
of people right but yeah you know for for the
majority of them the shared value aspect is very
very important and and they're just like I don't
I don't want to open up my fridge and see you
know, see chicken and steak and all these different
things and it's really really important to them
and they want their kitchen to be a reflection
of their values and they want their spouse to
also share in that. So it's really really important.
Shared values is just so important in terms of
relationships and marriage in general but especially
for vegans and vegetarians who have made very
specific choices in their life. And their lives
and their lifestyles reflect that when it comes
to finding someone to spend, God willing, the
rest of their life with, this is just a very,
very high importance and will help. It's not
a guarantee, but it will definitely help to strengthen
the bonds between them and to maintain the strength
of their bonds. I want to ask more questions
because we're going to actually record a special
episode just about that with also, you know,
vegan activist couples who will be participating
in this group conversation. I'm really looking
forward to having that conversation because every
time I open social media, I feel like it's one
of the top issue. People asking questions or
commenting about how it is tough to find someone
who's vegan. or being in a relationship with
someone who's not vegan comes with a whole lot
of troubles. And I feel people need help navigating
the dating world, at least vegans. But yeah,
I'm looking forward to that conversation. Same
here. It was a great conversation to have. Looking
forward as well. Wonderful. Rabbi, did you have
anything to add before I stopped the recording?
First of all, just say thank you so much for
this opportunity to speak with you and about
this very important topic. Really a pleasure
and an honor. And just really to sum up, you
know, kind of what we're focusing on before that,
you know, I think a lot of people today look
at veganism as extreme and vegans as extreme.
But really, when you look at the root of it all,
it's like We're just trying to be like nice people.
We're trying to be the best people that we can
be and try to create the best world we can create.
It's really so much about such a basic value
of creating a better world, more goodness in
the world. Like who doesn't want less pain and
suffering in the world? You know, who doesn't
want more health in the world? Who doesn't want
more wholeness and wellness in the world? That's
what it's all about, right? And I think it's
important for people to know that and I think
it's important for us vegans to kind of broadcast
that and share that in our messaging so people
can really understand where we're coming from
and why we're doing this work. Wonderful, great
parting words. Again, Rabbi Akiva, thank you
so much for your time and for answering my questions.
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite
you to share this podcast with the vegans you
know. Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will
see you next Tuesday for a new episode.