WEBVTT

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in our obscurity. In all this vastness, there

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is no hint that help will come from elsewhere

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to save us from ourselves. These words were spoken

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by Carl Sagan and were inspired by the pale blue

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dot, a picture of Earth taken by the Voyager

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1 space probe from a distance of 6 billion kilometers

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or 3 .7 billion miles. In the spirit of that

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insight, I asked today's guest, Rabbi Akiva Gersh,

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also known as the vegan rabbi, why does God not

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intervene to stop the horrors of animal exploitation?

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That kicked off a fascinating conversation about

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religion and its place in the vegan movement,

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the nature of evil, antisemitism, and why does

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Rabbi Akiva think that the fight for animal rights

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is a holy fight. I am full of admiration for

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Rabbi Akiva's tireless work of using religious

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arguments to promote compassion for animals in

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the Jewish community. Connect with him on Instagram

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at veganrabbi or visit his website akivagirsch

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.com. Link in the episode's notes. There's this

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big problem that we're all aware of in the vegan

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community, which is animal exploitation. In terms

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of scale, the scale of this horror, it's unimaginable.

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There isn't something comparable to think about

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the billions of animals and the way they are.

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kept in captivity and then also tortured and

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killed. So, you know, it's just beyond, it's

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a category of its own, this type of horror. But

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then, you know, in... religious communities,

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and I consider myself a religious person. We

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believe in all sorts of supernatural beings,

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starting with God, capital G, but also God, small

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g, angels, spirits, the list goes on. And sometimes

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I ask myself, what are they up to? Why are they

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not intervening? Why is heaven, God, whatever,

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not doing something? about this horror that is

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unfolding. And of course, I can hear the skeptics

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say, because they don't exist. That's why they're

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not intervening. But what do you make of that

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question? A really powerful question. It's a

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really good question. And I'll say, please, God,

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help me with my answer in answering that question.

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Look, as a Jew and in Judaism, we believe and

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we teach the very important place of free will,

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free choice. And God created this world and God

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created creation and God created all these creations

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and this wonderful, magnificent, beautiful, gorgeous,

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wonderful world that we live in. and gave humans

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free choice. And that was both the best idea,

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and I think you could even say the worst idea

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on some level, with all due love and respect

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to God, of course, right? I mean, it was God's

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wisdom. God gave us free choice, but God knew.

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I mean, as part of the Jewish tradition, I imagine

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other religious spiritual traditions as well,

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that God knew with free choice, anything can

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happen. There's even an oral teaching, it's a

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teaching in the Jewish oral tradition that says

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that before humans were created that the angels,

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basically God asked the angels about creating

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humans, you know, as this different kind of creation

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and the angels were against it. The angels were

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actually against it because of what possibly

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could happen as a result of us being in the world

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and with our free will and God created us anyway.

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So there is great risk in creating A, being with

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free choice. But to answer your question, I feel

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like it all comes down to that, that God felt

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that it was very important that there be one

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creature in this world, that being the human

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beings, with free choice. Because with free choice

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can come incredible and magnificent things, but

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of course, unfortunately, the opposite can be

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true as well. So right, we're always, maybe not

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always, but often whenever there are moments

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of great challenge and suffering and tragedy.

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We're like, where is God? This would be a perfect

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time for God to intervene and save the day. Come

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down and swoop down and save the day like some

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magnificent movie scene where all the evil people

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or doers just get wiped out and good prevails.

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That's not the kind of world that God created.

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God created a world where humans are in the world

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with free will and with free choice. And with

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that comes great responsibility. and we are meant

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to. I mean the teachings of Judaism and other

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traditions as well are filled with moral and

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ethical teachings to teach us and to show us

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and to guide us how to use that responsibility

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and how to use that free choice in the best possible

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way. Unfortunately, we the human beings have

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not always made the best choices. Sometimes we've

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made horrible choices and we continue to make

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horrible choices and for some reason we are okay

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doing things that cause such great suffering

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and pain to other humans and to other creatures.

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And so God's role here is not to swoop down and

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save the day. God wants us to do it. We're the

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ones who are supposed to live the right way.

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And if we don't live the right way, then to make

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the corrections and to make the fixings in order

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to make this world a better place. It's on our

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shoulders and our shoulders alone. And so, yeah,

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it's painful for anyone who's sensitive and aware

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to see the suffering happening in the world.

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And we want it to be over in a second. Of course,

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we don't care how it ends. We just want it to

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be over. But this is the world where humans were

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created and humans have free will and we're meant

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to use our free will to solve the problems that,

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let's be honest, we created ourselves. Sometimes,

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unfortunately, it takes a while for us to find

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the solutions or to convince people to use the

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solutions that have already been found, especially

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in the case of how we eat and the food choices

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that we make. Is there a place in Judaism for

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evil, you know, for the belief that there is

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like a devil or something, something demonic?

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I often attribute, you know, or let me put it

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this way, if there was a evil, I guess the closest

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thing to it would be animal exploitation. So

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is there a place for that in Judaism? like there's

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a lot a lot has been written um about evil good

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and evil again connected to human free will uh

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over the thousands of years that judaism has

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been uh an organized and existing religion in

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in judaism we we talk about something called

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the which is the evil inclination okay first

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of all as you know as a monotheistic uh path

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we believe that there's one force only one force

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everything's from God. God is the only force

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that created and maintains everything in the

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world. So that of course brings up the big philosophical

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question that was related to your question before,

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like how can there be evil in a world that was

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created by an all -loving and all -good God?

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But there is a place for evil because of free

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will. Free choice gives birth to the possibility

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of humans choosing the opposite of good. And

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we see that. And while we don't have this belief

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of any spiritual force really being against God

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because everything's on God's side, everything's

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within the realm of God, when it comes down to

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this world, this physical world that we're in,

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yes, we the humans do have the possibility of

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choosing evil. We do have this inner kind of

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battle between us, between good and evil. We

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have this evil inclination, and that could, if

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acted upon, that can come out in all different

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kinds of ways. You know, selfishness, lack of

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compassion and greed, stealing, lying on and

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the like. And unfortunately, humans have and

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continue to choose that path of selfishness.

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And when we look at animal exploitation, You

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know, I think there's a lot of things that lead

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to that. There's a lot of factors, but I think

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one very strong factor is one selfishness, just

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focusing on myself. I don't care. I just like

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the taste and I want it to be cheap and I want

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it to be readily available, you know, and not

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thinking about it and not even caring about what

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happens behind the scenes, you know, before the

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animal is turned into a, you know, a piece of

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food. wrapped in plastic and sold in the supermarkets.

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I think it's also, in addition to selfishness,

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I want to say inability, but maybe a better way

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to say it is not yet tapped into ability to feel

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the pain and suffering of others, whether those

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others be humans or non -human creatures in this

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world. And I think also in there, and I've heard

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this, is the absurd belief that animals can't

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feel pain and suffering like we humans can. So

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I think it's also ignorance. It's a lot of different

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factors, but all those things that I just mentioned

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are rooted in evil, in using free will to choose

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the evil path and the evil side and the one that's

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not compassionate, that's not... loving and that's

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not seeking to bring goodness and justice into

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the world. Fighting this evil is not an easy

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business. And you know, I've had so many I've

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talked to so many activists who have felt, you

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know, burned out and tired and depressed from

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doing the work of advancing, you know, the vegan

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cause and being pro -animal. Is there any teaching

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in Judaism that helps us deal with being faced

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to that evil and fighting that evil as a weapon

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for our well -being and safeguarding our sanity

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in this fight? Right, right, which is so important.

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It's so important in order not to get burnt out

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so that we can continue to do this very important,

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and I even call it holy work. Judaism says a

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lot about this. You know, Judaism, when you look,

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when you go deep, when you go deep, when you

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go deep, Judaism at its core, I think we can

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say is an activist movement. It's an activist

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movement. Why? What is an activist movement?

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An activist movement or activist organization

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is focused on something that's wrong in the world

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or broken in the world and they want to fix it.

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They want to solve it. They want to bring wholeness

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to where there's brokenness. That's Judaism at

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its essence. Judaism is literally all about fixing

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the world. There's a concept called Tikkun Olam,

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which means fixing the world, literally, which

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is an ancient Jewish concept. It's talked a lot

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about in the mystical tradition. but also in

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the ethics and morals of Judaism, it shows up

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a lot. And it's really based on this idea that

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the world has a lot of brokenness in it and we're

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here to fix it. We can use our free choice. We

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keep going back to that theme of free choice

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and we can use a free choice or free will to

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fix it, but that's what we're supposed to do.

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And in Judaism, I think the tools that we can

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use to help us not get burnt out, not get overwhelmed,

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one is faith. Like the person you mentioned before,

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faith is very strong in Judaism. And knowing

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that even if I see so much wrong in the world,

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first of all, and I'm going to get back to this

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in a second, there's so much beauty. There's

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so much beauty in the world as well. We can't

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forget that. We have to open up our eyes to the

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constant. Beauty of the world and the constant

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goodness. It's not all evil. It's not all broken.

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There's so much Gorgeousness in this world and

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it's all from God and God created an incredible

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world And we have to really remember that one

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for the sake of knowing that you know to recognize

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the goodness of this world But also it helps

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us in terms of moving on but coming back to the

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idea of faith Faith is very strong in Judaism.

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Obviously, and it's the idea. Okay, you know

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what? This is how brokenness was built into the

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world. This is all from God, you know, and God

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wants us to do the work to fix it, and God's

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with me, right? God's giving me the strength.

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My strength comes from God, right? Like King

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David says, In Psalms, I'll say it in Hebrew

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because it's so beautiful and then I'll translate

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it into English. I lift up my eyes to the mountain.

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Where does my help come from? My help comes from

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God, makers of the heavens and the earth. So

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it's constantly, literally daily. constantly

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tapping into our faith, right? And from that

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faith comes so much, including the strength to

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continue on even in the face of challenge and

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brokenness. And the last thing I'll say just

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for now is that Judaism has built into it the

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celebration of life and the celebration of the

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beauty of the world. And that happens on a weekly

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level, a monthly level, and an annual level,

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weekly of Shabbat. Every single week, every seven

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days, we pause. We rest on Shabbat, on the Sabbath,

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not only to rest from our work, but also to create

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space to appreciate the goodness of the world

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and the beauty of the world. And the classic

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Jewish teaching is for six days of the week,

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we're doing our work, we're fixing the world,

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we're noticing, we're very aware of, even sometimes

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hyper aware of the brokenness, the challenges

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of a world, and on Shabbat, On some level, we

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stop being activists on Shabbat. Because now

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Shabbat is to fill myself back up, is to say,

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wow, what a world. What a gorgeous world. Give

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myself that rest. I'm not going to try to fix

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anything, either physically or figuratively.

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And I'm going to tap into the holiness of this

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day. And that fills me up for another six days

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after that. to keep doing the work. And then

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I have another Shabbat. Wow, again, amazing.

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I have a day of rest and I feel myself back up.

00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.379
Wow, and I go another six days, right? And it's

00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:12.399
this incredible institution, if you want to call

00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.639
it that, of reconnecting ourselves, plugging

00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:17.940
ourselves back in so that we have the physical

00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:20.820
and spiritual strength and ability to keep going

00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:23.159
on and not burning out. I feel like Shabbat at

00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:25.899
its core is all about not burning out physically

00:15:25.899 --> 00:15:29.679
and spiritually and as an activist. That's a

00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.159
priceless priceless tool. You mentioned King

00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:38.799
David and There's this recent TV series that

00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:43.679
was released on Prime video I don't know if you

00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:47.059
if you were aware of it. It's about King David

00:15:47.059 --> 00:15:50.460
and I guess it's the first time I've watched

00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:57.279
something, you know a Judaic story adapted to

00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:01.700
the movie format. This was the first time for

00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:09.679
me watching Dange. Did you watch it? No. Too

00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:13.139
bad. I wish I had your feedback on that. But

00:16:13.139 --> 00:16:16.179
something interesting in that TV series, I noticed

00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:19.460
as a vegan, of course. is, you know, they talk

00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:23.039
a lot about, you know, animal sacrifices and

00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.740
they do lots of animal sacrifices, but they never

00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:30.879
show, you know, the animal itself being sacrificed.

00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:34.980
You know, they always cut to the scene of here's

00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:40.980
the meat or whatever, the burnt sacrifice. And

00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:45.080
I found it very interesting that they would censor

00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:49.730
that part. you know, and not expose their audience

00:16:49.730 --> 00:16:55.409
to it. You know, they show armies battling with,

00:16:55.409 --> 00:16:59.169
you know, people dying left and right. But, you

00:16:59.169 --> 00:17:03.230
know, the sacrifice of the lamp that they don't

00:17:03.230 --> 00:17:08.690
show. What do you make of that editing and how,

00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:12.630
you know, they perceive people to be more sensitive

00:17:12.630 --> 00:17:18.390
to showing a lamp being sacrificed to armies

00:17:18.390 --> 00:17:21.529
killing each other. That is very interesting.

00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:29.470
Yeah, I think I think it's a reflection of human

00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:31.410
society in our modern -day world that people

00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:34.289
are disconnected from what really happens behind

00:17:34.289 --> 00:17:37.410
the scenes when they choose to eat animals and

00:17:37.410 --> 00:17:39.109
they don't want to see that because they don't

00:17:39.109 --> 00:17:40.710
want to know or they don't want to be reminded

00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:42.490
maybe they heard about it saw something once

00:17:42.490 --> 00:17:45.609
or twice even or three times but they want to

00:17:45.609 --> 00:17:50.549
forget about it and to be shown that it's a reminder

00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:52.789
of you know even though that's in the context

00:17:52.789 --> 00:17:54.809
of you know ancient sacrifices which we don't

00:17:54.809 --> 00:17:57.539
do anymore it's still a reminder of you know

00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:00.420
the that yeah it's intense to take an animal's

00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:02.240
life for your own personal needs whether it's

00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.940
a sacrifice or or for food is an intense thing

00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:08.039
and you should think about that and you should

00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.579
be aware of that before you do it and people

00:18:10.579 --> 00:18:12.400
don't want to do that people just want to eat

00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:14.859
the steak or the hamburger and nothing about

00:18:14.859 --> 00:18:18.299
what had to happen you know before that and that's

00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:21.630
that's a problem Um, I, I met people in the past,

00:18:21.650 --> 00:18:23.849
you know, um, who, you know, they would, they

00:18:23.849 --> 00:18:26.029
would only chicken if it was like in the form

00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:29.609
of like a patty, but no bones. Cause if they

00:18:29.609 --> 00:18:31.470
saw bones, they wouldn't be able to eat it. And

00:18:31.470 --> 00:18:37.089
it's like, you know, um, and yeah, I think it

00:18:37.089 --> 00:18:41.569
is a reflection of, of the disconnect today and

00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:44.490
the real kind of like, don't tell me I don't,

00:18:44.650 --> 00:18:46.349
I didn't see it. I don't know about it. I don't

00:18:46.349 --> 00:18:47.990
have to think about it. And then I can just keep

00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:51.630
doing whatever I want. I'm sure there's a big

00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:54.829
Jewish audience, you know, watching that TV series.

00:18:55.910 --> 00:18:59.250
What is the state of, you know, progressive veganism

00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:03.589
in the Jewish community? I know that, you know,

00:19:03.630 --> 00:19:08.130
when I look at Buddhists, I wish there were more

00:19:08.130 --> 00:19:12.730
vegan Buddhists. And I feel strongly that this

00:19:12.730 --> 00:19:16.869
is the natural way to be a Buddhist, you know,

00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:21.660
being vegan. that there should be more vegan

00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:25.119
Buddhists than there are right now. Do you have

00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.259
the same feeling? Yes, I do. I wish there were

00:19:29.259 --> 00:19:31.500
more Jewish vegans and specifically I wish there

00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:33.680
were more Orthodox Jewish vegans. As you might

00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:35.799
know, there's different kind of denominations

00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:38.819
in the Jewish world. The three main ones are

00:19:38.819 --> 00:19:41.240
Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. I'm part of

00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.200
the Orthodox Jewish community. um and definitely

00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.240
there's not that many orthodox jewish regans

00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:49.839
out there and i wish there were more for sure

00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.440
and my you know long story short i i was always

00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:56.900
jewish but i didn't grow up religious i grew

00:19:56.900 --> 00:20:00.640
up very secular in a secular family and a secular

00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.500
lifestyle in america i now live in israel um

00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:08.190
but uh as a result of a spiritual journey in

00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:11.670
college, searching for spiritual meaning and

00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:14.150
spiritual traditions, eventually that took me

00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:16.650
full circle to my own Jewish tradition, inspired

00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:20.690
actually by the environmental and animal welfare

00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:22.750
teachings that I discovered in Judaism at the

00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:25.049
age of 19 and 20, which nobody told me about.

00:20:25.369 --> 00:20:28.970
I was already at that point vegan. I went vegetarian

00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:32.930
when I was 18, vegan when I was 19. I'm now 49.

00:20:33.490 --> 00:20:35.670
So this fall, God willing, I'll be celebrating

00:20:35.670 --> 00:20:40.210
30 years of being vegan. And it was an environmental

00:20:40.210 --> 00:20:42.430
studies major and the environmental movement

00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:45.509
was a big part of my life. And I never knew anything

00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:47.410
about Judaism and the environment or Judaism

00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:49.569
and animal welfare. And when I started to discover

00:20:49.569 --> 00:20:52.069
that, I'm like, really? Judaism has what to say

00:20:52.069 --> 00:20:53.430
about this? And that really opened up the door

00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:56.250
for me to explore more of my Jewish roots, eventually

00:20:56.250 --> 00:20:58.890
more of the spiritual tradition in Judaism. And

00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:01.009
that's when I really got interested and then

00:21:01.009 --> 00:21:03.509
started learning and took on an Orthodox traditional

00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:09.079
lifestyle. For me, Judaism supports veganism

00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:12.660
100 % in very strong and powerful ways. So for

00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:16.180
me, I see, I mean, dozens if not hundreds of

00:21:16.180 --> 00:21:19.180
sources in Judaism that support going vegan today

00:21:19.180 --> 00:21:21.480
because of the horrors of the factory farming

00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:25.319
world and the negative impact of eating an animal

00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.940
-based diet. So yeah, I see it as a very Jewish

00:21:28.940 --> 00:21:31.500
thing. Unfortunately, not that many, not enough

00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:36.769
Jews. are vegan, more out of the Orthodox community,

00:21:37.910 --> 00:21:40.250
most if not all of the Jewish vegans that I know

00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:42.410
are not in the Orthodox community, a few of them

00:21:42.410 --> 00:21:45.250
are, but more in the conservative and reform,

00:21:46.170 --> 00:21:48.829
which are, you know, tend to be labeled as more

00:21:48.829 --> 00:21:52.369
kind of open to and interested in kind of progressive

00:21:52.369 --> 00:21:58.559
movements and causes and the like. But all that

00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:00.460
is rooted in the concept I brought up before,

00:22:00.579 --> 00:22:04.700
Tikkun Olam, fixing the world. It's so Jewish.

00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:08.839
If I'm choosing the way that I eat because I

00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:10.799
care about the world and I want the world to

00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.960
be a better place, both for the planet and for

00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.579
all the creatures and creations living on this

00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:20.269
planet, that's... that's tikkun olam that's fixing

00:22:20.269 --> 00:22:21.950
the world that's because i want this world to

00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:25.730
be a better place so it's very jewish but uh

00:22:25.730 --> 00:22:27.950
still not enough jews are choosing that path

00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:32.269
in my uh opinion i want to know more about what

00:22:32.269 --> 00:22:35.869
you discovered exactly i uh recently watched

00:22:35.869 --> 00:22:40.849
your teaching um about that dairy holiday and

00:22:40.849 --> 00:22:44.589
you can tell me more about it and um you were

00:22:44.589 --> 00:22:48.829
quoting that um jewish scholar who lived Like

00:22:48.829 --> 00:22:52.750
a long time ago and was already you know thinking

00:22:52.750 --> 00:23:00.130
and preaching about he was a rabbi. About vegetarianism

00:23:00.130 --> 00:23:03.890
and the the suffering of animals and i was really

00:23:03.890 --> 00:23:08.349
surprised like positively surprised about his

00:23:08.349 --> 00:23:12.849
existence and i was really not aware of that

00:23:12.849 --> 00:23:17.549
you know happening during that time so. Yeah,

00:23:17.650 --> 00:23:20.750
please tell me more. Yeah, so basically, you

00:23:20.750 --> 00:23:23.750
know, Judaism is filled with laws and values

00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:27.150
and ethics and teachings. And within the laws

00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:30.690
of Judaism are laws that obligate us to show

00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:32.900
compassion for animals obligate us. It's not

00:23:32.900 --> 00:23:35.180
a choice, it's not a suggestion, it's an obligation.

00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:38.880
There's laws on the books that you cannot cause

00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.799
unnecessary pain and suffering to animals, that

00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.240
you need to show compassion. And, you know, we've

00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:45.000
been around for over 3 ,000 years, so we have

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.740
lots of books. You know, there's the book, the

00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:49.599
Torah, the Five Books of Moses, but then there's

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.240
also all kinds of commentaries and other books

00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.740
and anything from Jewish law to Jewish mysticism

00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:56.779
and Jewish philosophy and everything in between.

00:23:57.549 --> 00:24:00.809
And so many Jewish rabbis, leaders, and writers

00:24:00.809 --> 00:24:02.490
have talked about throughout the generations

00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:06.109
about this, about compassion for animals. One

00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:08.930
very famous one is Rabbi Moshe Kordavero, who

00:24:08.930 --> 00:24:12.650
lived 500 years ago in Israel. He wrote about

00:24:12.650 --> 00:24:16.190
that if someone disparages, if someone shows

00:24:16.190 --> 00:24:19.589
disrespect to an animal, what they're really

00:24:19.589 --> 00:24:21.609
doing is disrespecting God, because God created

00:24:21.609 --> 00:24:24.210
that animal, which is a very powerful teaching.

00:24:25.250 --> 00:24:27.609
The class that you were referring to specifically

00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:30.710
about the holiday we recently had called Shebuot,

00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:33.109
which is a holiday that we commemorate and celebrate

00:24:33.109 --> 00:24:34.990
the giving of the Torah Mount Sinai over 3 ,000

00:24:34.990 --> 00:24:38.410
years ago, eventually became known as like the

00:24:38.410 --> 00:24:41.750
dairy holiday. It's not an obligation to eat

00:24:41.750 --> 00:24:44.170
dairy, but because Torah is compared to milk,

00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:46.549
you know, for various reasons, one, because milk

00:24:46.549 --> 00:24:51.430
gives life to newborn animals. So to Torah gives

00:24:51.430 --> 00:24:55.039
life. So there's no obligation whatsoever to

00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:57.940
eat dairy on Shavuot, but it became a custom.

00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.299
Judaism, like other traditions, is filled with

00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:02.420
customs as well, not obligations, but customs,

00:25:02.859 --> 00:25:05.380
which is a beautiful thing. Customs are beautiful

00:25:05.380 --> 00:25:11.660
traditions. But when a tradition gets in the

00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:15.660
way of an obligation, in this case eating dairy

00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:19.039
which causes incredible and immense pain and

00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.380
suffering both physically and emotional to God's

00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:27.019
creatures to eat those foods on a holiday that

00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:29.700
celebrates the giving of the Torah by God makes

00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:34.210
no sense whatsoever. We're celebrating, you know,

00:25:34.289 --> 00:25:37.309
our tradition through causing pain and suffering

00:25:37.309 --> 00:25:39.549
to God's creatures. That just doesn't make sense.

00:25:40.230 --> 00:25:43.910
So the rabbi whose teaching I shared in that

00:25:43.910 --> 00:25:47.369
class, his name was Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Kulk.

00:25:47.990 --> 00:25:52.069
He lived from 1865 to 1935 and he was very, very

00:25:53.360 --> 00:25:56.200
holy visionary of a man. You know, we don't have

00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:58.059
prophets these days anymore, but if we did he

00:25:58.059 --> 00:26:01.579
would be included in them. He really saw the

00:26:01.579 --> 00:26:05.319
world in a very different way and he wrote quite

00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.680
a lot. He wrote a lot in general, but included

00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:11.299
in his teachings he wrote about animal welfare

00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:14.700
and about eating animals and how the original

00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:17.019
diet that was given to humanity in the Garden

00:26:17.019 --> 00:26:19.559
of Eden through Adam and Eve, which was a purely

00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:21.740
plant -based diet, as it says in chapter one

00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:26.000
of Genesis, verse 29, that that was the ideal,

00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:28.799
that that was the ideal, and that one day we're

00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:31.619
meant to return to that ideal. And so he wrote

00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:34.539
about that, he brought it into his own life,

00:26:35.859 --> 00:26:41.079
and yeah, he was one of the few rabbinic leaders

00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:43.200
to really talk about it in such a direct way.

00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.400
talk to Jews about all of that. What is their

00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:59.119
first reaction? I get a lot of pushback, a lot

00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:03.319
of pushback, specifically with all due love and

00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.539
respect to my Orthodox, my fellow Orthodox Jews,

00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.180
especially from Orthodox Jews. They say a lot

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:12.460
of the things that they say are the same things

00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:15.890
I've heard from many people. many times. Well,

00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:18.309
God let us eat animals so there's no problem.

00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:20.730
It's kosher. That's all I care about. That's

00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:23.710
all I have to care about is that it's kosher.

00:27:23.930 --> 00:27:26.529
My rabbi does it. That means I can do it. My

00:27:26.529 --> 00:27:29.349
rabbi eats it so I can eat it. These are classic

00:27:29.349 --> 00:27:34.309
kind of responses and I always have my answers

00:27:34.309 --> 00:27:40.250
that I share back with them. Yeah, it's very

00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:42.390
much kind of rooted in like I'm allowed to so

00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:46.230
I do. Right? God let us eat animals, so I do.

00:27:46.390 --> 00:27:49.349
So don't tell me I can't or I shouldn't. And

00:27:49.349 --> 00:27:52.890
my response almost always is, it's yes, obviously,

00:27:53.029 --> 00:27:54.910
God gave us permission, right? Like we just said

00:27:54.910 --> 00:27:57.730
that God gave a purely plant -based diet in the

00:27:57.730 --> 00:28:00.890
Garden of Eden. That lasted until the generation

00:28:00.890 --> 00:28:04.430
of the Flood and the generation of Noah, after

00:28:04.430 --> 00:28:07.049
which, you know, after the Flood God then changed

00:28:07.049 --> 00:28:11.279
the diet and allowed humans to eat animals, the

00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:14.160
main word there is allowed, not obligated them.

00:28:14.900 --> 00:28:16.140
And so I always share back with them, it's like,

00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.680
yes, we do have the permission. Clearly, Judaism

00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:24.079
allows us to kill animals for food, right, in

00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:26.119
a very specific way, something called shchita,

00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:28.619
which is kosher slaughter, but we're allowed

00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:32.400
to, we're allowed to for sure. But if we're doing

00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:38.559
that in a way that's going against other obligations

00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:40.980
of the Torah, like not causing pain and suffering

00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:43.819
to animals. So what are we doing? We're doing

00:28:43.819 --> 00:28:47.240
something that's, you know, permissible, but

00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:50.180
in the process we're breaking a law that's an

00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:54.319
obligation. So how do you justify that? I don't

00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:56.319
really usually ever hear a good answer to that

00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:00.500
question. I'll be honest with you. You mentioned

00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:04.319
that this work of confronting people and convincing

00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.000
them to become vegan and care about animals,

00:29:07.299 --> 00:29:10.839
you consider that holy. What did you mean by

00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:15.039
that? Good question. I think it's connected to

00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:17.640
something you guys said before, is that of all

00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:21.420
the things that we do as humans, I really believe

00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:25.460
that our food choices, what we eat, has the greatest

00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:28.420
impact in so many different ways. on the world,

00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:32.359
on the planet, on creation. What I eat will impact

00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:35.119
the earth. It will impact the soil, the water,

00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:40.980
the atmosphere. It'll impact other humans. It'll

00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:43.900
impact other creatures, of course. It'll impact

00:29:43.900 --> 00:29:47.960
my health. It'll impact my family. It's pervasive.

00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:51.140
It's one of the few things that we do in our

00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:57.259
lives that has such a... diverse and wide -reaching

00:29:57.259 --> 00:30:01.240
impact and so when we and in addition to that

00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.259
we have you know we have desires for good tasting

00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:06.799
things and tavot as we call them in Hebrew like

00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.359
lusts and desires and it's not always easy to

00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:13.200
to hold ourselves back and to to not give into

00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.039
them especially if they're permissible right

00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.400
I'm allowed to eat a steak I'm allowed to eat

00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:21.180
burgers right I'm allowed to have a barbecue

00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:25.869
with you know meat hot dogs and the like. And

00:30:25.869 --> 00:30:28.849
when we overcome that desire for the sake of

00:30:28.849 --> 00:30:32.250
a value that takes a lot of strength, that takes

00:30:32.250 --> 00:30:36.950
a lot of self -discipline, and when that action

00:30:36.950 --> 00:30:40.430
of ours, when that change is for the sake of

00:30:40.430 --> 00:30:43.609
creating a better world, which is the ultimate

00:30:43.609 --> 00:30:48.069
mission and vision of Judaism, that's holy. That's

00:30:48.069 --> 00:30:50.789
holy. You're sanctifying life. What does it mean,

00:30:50.789 --> 00:30:55.849
holy? In Judaism, something that's holy is something

00:30:55.849 --> 00:30:57.890
that's been sanctified. Why is Shabbat holy?

00:30:57.970 --> 00:31:04.869
Because it's been sanctified. It's being elevated.

00:31:05.849 --> 00:31:07.690
And we're supposed to do the same thing with

00:31:07.690 --> 00:31:09.509
the world. We're supposed to sanctify this world.

00:31:09.509 --> 00:31:12.130
We're supposed to make this world a dwelling

00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:15.109
place for holiness, for godliness. And when we

00:31:15.109 --> 00:31:19.200
choose actions, for the sake of that, with that

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.279
in mind, with that intention in order to make

00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.240
this world a more godly place, that's holy work.

00:31:25.460 --> 00:31:32.720
Do you feel like the vegan community is investing

00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:39.039
enough in supporting religious, not movements,

00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:45.160
but organizations, activists, because I feel

00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:49.279
like the best argument we can make for people

00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:54.579
to become vegans is a religious argument. I think

00:31:54.579 --> 00:31:59.019
that to make real change in this world, we have

00:31:59.019 --> 00:32:04.519
to focus on the religious aspect of this whole

00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:11.319
equation. I feel like we focus too much on the

00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:15.940
economic aspect of it. And I see, you know, lots

00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:19.859
of street activists and so on making the ethical

00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:25.480
argument for veganism. But then, like you mentioned

00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.960
before, if I take my moral, ethical cues from

00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.799
my rabbi, who are you to tell me, you know, what

00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:41.269
is ethical or not? Of course, we are all capable

00:32:41.269 --> 00:32:44.750
of, you know, being independent in our thoughts

00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:48.269
and mind, but there are people we consider moral

00:32:48.269 --> 00:32:52.509
authorities in our life. And so why aren't we

00:32:52.509 --> 00:32:59.009
doing more to reach those people, to support

00:32:59.009 --> 00:33:04.690
those, you know, Rabbi, Imam, Buddhist monks

00:33:04.690 --> 00:33:10.920
and priests that make the the argument for veganism?

00:33:11.420 --> 00:33:14.720
Another very good question. I think that a lot

00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:16.680
of people, I mean, I think we clearly see it

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:18.119
in our world today. A lot of people are turned

00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:21.380
off to religion. People, even though I think

00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:25.259
we religious people see the real beauty and even

00:33:25.259 --> 00:33:28.640
purity of religion, we're still human beings

00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.960
and not everyone who is, quote unquote, religious

00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:37.430
or a member of a certain religious path. and

00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:40.890
community lives up to the values and the highest

00:33:40.890 --> 00:33:43.690
values of that religious community and path.

00:33:44.269 --> 00:33:46.769
And I think people today, a lot of people are

00:33:46.769 --> 00:33:49.670
turned off to religion and by religion because

00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:55.569
they see it as something that has been corrupted

00:33:55.569 --> 00:33:58.630
and they see a lot of corruption in religions.

00:33:58.670 --> 00:34:00.349
And even though that's not the essence of religion,

00:34:00.390 --> 00:34:03.210
that's human error. on the part of religious

00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:06.089
people. They kind of, you know, put it all together

00:34:06.089 --> 00:34:10.809
and they throw out religion. So I think there's

00:34:10.809 --> 00:34:15.309
a weakened interest in religion in general in

00:34:15.309 --> 00:34:20.239
our society today. And even if, you know, you

00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:22.159
were to target the people who are connected to

00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:24.179
religion, they often use those same arguments

00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:27.500
as like, where God created us as higher than

00:34:27.500 --> 00:34:29.059
animals, we're allowed to use anything we want

00:34:29.059 --> 00:34:31.079
in this world. We're better than the animals.

00:34:31.539 --> 00:34:33.079
So I don't have to think about this stuff. So

00:34:33.079 --> 00:34:35.239
don't tell me that I have to. And they have their

00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.019
own religious arguments, you know, against our

00:34:38.019 --> 00:34:42.280
religious arguments. So it makes it very challenging

00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.860
in that sense. But I think it's easier for most

00:34:47.230 --> 00:34:51.630
activists today to hold on to the ethical arguments,

00:34:53.429 --> 00:34:55.150
and that the religious arguments, though in my

00:34:55.150 --> 00:34:57.369
eyes, they're one and the same. Where do ethics

00:34:57.369 --> 00:35:01.230
come from? Ethics are rooted in these religious

00:35:01.230 --> 00:35:08.030
traditions. But yeah, and I'll be honest with

00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:12.269
you, I think there's not that many religious

00:35:12.909 --> 00:35:14.829
vegans out there, there's not enough for them

00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:19.650
to be known about, seen, heard. And so therefore

00:35:19.650 --> 00:35:21.349
their time, energy and resources are going to

00:35:21.349 --> 00:35:24.449
be invested elsewhere. Yeah, I'm thinking more

00:35:24.449 --> 00:35:28.150
and more, you know, what are we doing, creating

00:35:28.150 --> 00:35:32.949
fake meat in laboratory when there's this whole

00:35:32.949 --> 00:35:36.670
lane of developing the religious argument for

00:35:36.670 --> 00:35:40.329
veganism, that it is, you know, unexploited and

00:35:40.409 --> 00:35:43.949
pretty much neglected. And, you know, all the

00:35:43.949 --> 00:35:47.989
resources and funding goes to playing Dr. Frankenstein

00:35:47.989 --> 00:35:56.889
with, you know, lab -grown meat. Yeah, I agree.

00:35:57.030 --> 00:35:59.550
I'm totally on that page with you. I find it

00:35:59.550 --> 00:36:03.670
so interesting. You know, the way I look at it,

00:36:03.690 --> 00:36:06.690
he says, God created a world filled with food,

00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:10.909
filled with a diversity of colorful and and beautiful

00:36:10.909 --> 00:36:14.170
and nourishing and delicious food, why are we

00:36:14.170 --> 00:36:17.869
going into a laboratory investing tons of money

00:36:17.869 --> 00:36:20.289
and tons of energy and resources, right? This

00:36:20.289 --> 00:36:23.769
is an energy -intensive process that they are

00:36:23.769 --> 00:36:27.780
trying to perfect for the market. He said, why,

00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:29.539
why are we doing, we can take all that money

00:36:29.539 --> 00:36:32.260
and put it to education, into outreach, into

00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:35.440
all kinds of things. And we don't need that.

00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:38.760
We, I can get my health and nutrition from things

00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.780
that are already just simply growing in the world.

00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:45.300
I'm also a bit confused by it. Yeah. I'm, I,

00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:49.679
I used to look at this lab grown meat as, um,

00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.119
you know, using religious terminology, the Messiah,

00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.199
you know, I was thinking this will come, this

00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.500
will be developed and then it will be the end

00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:02.920
of animal exploitation. Nowadays, I'm thinking

00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:08.000
more and more that it won't, for many different

00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:16.320
reasons. I think that this fight is a religious

00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:18.579
fight, this fight is a cultural fight, this fight

00:37:18.579 --> 00:37:22.900
is a psychological fight, societal fight, not

00:37:22.900 --> 00:37:30.110
an economic one. changes. We will make and there

00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:34.389
has been tremendous changes on that front, but

00:37:34.389 --> 00:37:38.949
caused by, you know, economic pressure, but it

00:37:38.949 --> 00:37:43.530
won't resolve the problem, you know. But yeah,

00:37:43.530 --> 00:37:51.369
that's my opinion. Okay, let's talk about antisemitism.

00:37:51.969 --> 00:37:54.969
I think we cannot just, you know, have a conversation

00:37:54.969 --> 00:38:01.360
about Judaism and just, you know, forget about

00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:08.719
this, go over it. I did an episode on anti -Semitism

00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:14.019
in the vegan community. And I was thinking of

00:38:14.019 --> 00:38:18.980
you and how this must complicate your work in

00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:22.429
reaching out to to Jews because, you know, you're

00:38:22.429 --> 00:38:25.230
trying to make the religious argument for veganism

00:38:25.230 --> 00:38:32.250
and you're trying to influence Jews to adopt

00:38:32.250 --> 00:38:35.690
a vegan lifestyle. But then they look at the

00:38:35.690 --> 00:38:40.309
vegan community and there isn't, you know, a

00:38:40.309 --> 00:38:44.190
welcome party, you know, waiting for them quite

00:38:44.190 --> 00:38:47.789
the opposite. So this must really complicate

00:38:47.789 --> 00:38:52.550
your work. Very much so. Very much so. Um, already

00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:56.869
before October 7th, 2023 and way more since.

00:38:57.710 --> 00:39:00.329
Um, I remember years ago, I wrote this little

00:39:00.329 --> 00:39:02.750
booklet about Judaism and the environment and

00:39:02.750 --> 00:39:05.730
included in that was about animal welfare and

00:39:05.730 --> 00:39:09.210
our food choices. And I tried to put it, excuse

00:39:09.210 --> 00:39:15.570
me. I tried to get into, um, religious bookstores

00:39:15.570 --> 00:39:20.909
in New York and the first story I went to, the

00:39:20.909 --> 00:39:22.630
first thing that the book owner said is like,

00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:26.210
oh, is that that PETA stuff? I saw their advertisement

00:39:26.210 --> 00:39:30.510
comparing, you know, animal suffering to Holocaust,

00:39:30.510 --> 00:39:34.489
you know, victims. That was horrible, right?

00:39:34.510 --> 00:39:37.650
So right away, you know, there was this negative

00:39:37.650 --> 00:39:42.190
kind of perspective on the movement, you know,

00:39:42.210 --> 00:39:44.690
how dare they take something that's so sensitive

00:39:44.690 --> 00:39:49.239
to us Jews and use it in their campaigns. Right?

00:39:49.659 --> 00:39:51.519
That was years ago. That was like 25 years ago,

00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:56.800
if not more. But more recently, you know, more

00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:01.880
and more activists have been showing up and doing

00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:06.380
protests at something you might be familiar with

00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:09.860
called Kippot, which is a ritual that Jews do

00:40:09.860 --> 00:40:12.420
before Yom Kippur, which is all about asking

00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:15.460
God for forgiveness. Most of the Jewish world

00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.139
does it with money that then gets given to those

00:40:18.139 --> 00:40:22.340
who need it. Some, a minority, but unfortunately

00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:25.360
enough, in the ultra -orthodox community, you

00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:27.320
do it with chickens, live chickens, and they

00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:28.920
wave them around their head, and then they slaughter

00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.300
them right there on the spot, and it's a whole

00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:35.099
mess. It's a horrible, horrible mess, and me

00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:36.940
as a Jew, I'm totally against it, and many Jews

00:40:36.940 --> 00:40:38.920
are against it. They can still continue to do

00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:41.860
it. What happens is that oftentimes, you know,

00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:44.960
non -Jewish animal welfare activists will show

00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:48.139
up at these places and they just are screaming

00:40:48.139 --> 00:40:50.480
at them and they start you know being so offensive

00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.880
to them and so these orthodox jews see them as

00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.199
like the representation of the animal welfare

00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:58.480
movement and the vegan movement and they're just

00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.360
like see look how they act look what they're

00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.559
doing to us this is anti -semitic they're they're

00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:03.840
coming out here and they're getting involved

00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:06.699
with our religious rituals and things like that

00:41:06.699 --> 00:41:09.300
so that's just another example which has been

00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:12.789
a big turned off, at least in the Orthodox world.

00:41:13.789 --> 00:41:23.389
But by far the greatest damage to Jewish vegans

00:41:23.389 --> 00:41:27.550
and the general vegan world and movement has

00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:32.650
been post -October 7th. I've talked to countless

00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:36.840
Jewish vegetarians and vegans since then. and

00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:39.039
they just told me how they've been ostracized

00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:41.400
by their vegan community. Many of these Jewish

00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.159
vegans, their vegan community was a bigger part

00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:45.980
of their life than their Jewish community was,

00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:49.019
right? Their veganism is so important to them

00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:51.239
that it was their vegan community that they went

00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:55.539
to for gatherings and for events and social connections.

00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:59.719
And then post October 7th, they see their vegan

00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:01.739
friends posting all kinds of horrible stuff about

00:42:01.739 --> 00:42:04.960
Israel. There's always that fine line between,

00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.420
you know, criticism of Israel, anti -Israel,

00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:12.460
and anti -Semitism. And these people are, you

00:42:12.460 --> 00:42:15.760
know, these people are good people, you know,

00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:17.460
really open people wanting to make the world

00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:22.480
a better place. And they just felt completely...

00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:24.619
I mean, on some level, people would say to me,

00:42:25.099 --> 00:42:30.190
like... I know saying duped is a harsh and a

00:42:30.190 --> 00:42:36.150
hard word, but they felt really almost tricked,

00:42:36.510 --> 00:42:39.789
traumatized by the hate that was coming out of

00:42:39.789 --> 00:42:43.949
their fellow members of their vegan community.

00:42:44.349 --> 00:42:46.449
And they lost it all. Many of these people lost

00:42:46.449 --> 00:42:50.269
it all. Either they were kind of like pushed

00:42:50.269 --> 00:42:52.769
out or had to leave literally for their mental

00:42:52.769 --> 00:42:56.989
health. It was very, very traumatic and I've

00:42:56.989 --> 00:42:59.289
talked to many people. About a month or two into

00:42:59.289 --> 00:43:04.190
the war, I opened up a Zoom webinar, you know,

00:43:04.409 --> 00:43:07.159
for free for people just to join. dozens and

00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:09.880
dozens of Jewish vegans came on, and everyone

00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:11.219
said the same thing, everyone talked about the

00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:13.039
same thing. You know, this person, I know that

00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:15.480
for 15 years we've been so close in the vegan

00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.219
community, we've done such great work together,

00:43:17.500 --> 00:43:18.940
and now I see what they're saying, what they're

00:43:18.940 --> 00:43:21.179
sharing, what they're posting, it's like, it's

00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:23.579
horrible, it's traumatic. So yeah, anti -Semitism

00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:27.699
in the vegan community has been felt tremendously

00:43:27.699 --> 00:43:30.860
since October 7th, and it's caused a lot of Jewish

00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:33.739
vegans to go in there. I'll be honest with you,

00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:38.199
it's very unfortunate to lose trust in the general

00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:41.300
vegan world. Obviously it's not everyone, but

00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:43.619
it's been enough people and enough times that

00:43:43.619 --> 00:43:46.559
they feel like they're not sure if those connections

00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.260
can ever be rebuilt. And I guess you can say

00:43:50.260 --> 00:43:52.300
the silver lining of that, the benefit of that

00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:54.500
is that the Jewish vegan community has gotten

00:43:54.500 --> 00:43:58.320
really much more inner and stronger as a result.

00:43:59.900 --> 00:44:05.440
And our kind of inner ties and connections have

00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.460
become much stronger. And I've become connected

00:44:07.460 --> 00:44:11.280
to people, other Jewish vegans, who maybe I wouldn't

00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:14.579
have as a result of the anti -Semitism that has

00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:18.219
come out since October 7th. So it's unfortunate.

00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:22.000
It's real. It's there. It's visible and it's

00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.340
felt. And yeah, it's sad to say, but I don't

00:44:25.340 --> 00:44:27.599
know if it's reparable. I think this might be,

00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.159
you know, one and done thing that Jewish vegans

00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:34.739
are not going to look back to even try to repair

00:44:34.739 --> 00:44:38.099
that because it's been so hurtful and so damaging.

00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:44.079
Yeah, that was my my next question. What is the

00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:50.300
solution to that? And is there a path to, you

00:44:50.300 --> 00:44:57.710
know, reuniting and and and having a more, I

00:44:57.710 --> 00:45:02.389
guess, healthier unity in the vegan movement,

00:45:03.010 --> 00:45:08.590
is there a way to forgive, not forget, but to

00:45:08.590 --> 00:45:18.670
amend those offenses and have a new united front

00:45:18.670 --> 00:45:26.500
in terms of pro -animal movement Or is the solution

00:45:26.500 --> 00:45:31.460
or is the path forward to create new organizations

00:45:31.460 --> 00:45:40.960
this time that will not reflect those anti -Semitic

00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:47.639
positions? So what is it? I think it's continuing

00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.760
separately, doing the similar work, but doing

00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:52.309
it separately. I'm doing it within a Jewish context

00:45:52.309 --> 00:45:55.429
with other Jews. That's a safe space. It's a

00:45:55.429 --> 00:45:59.210
safer space. It's a supportive space and just

00:45:59.210 --> 00:46:00.750
too many people have seen too many things and

00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:03.170
heard too many things. I think to ever really,

00:46:03.170 --> 00:46:07.889
you know, kind of go back, you know, of course

00:46:07.889 --> 00:46:10.269
that's not everybody, but I think it's enough

00:46:10.269 --> 00:46:12.329
people and I just, I've heard it so many times.

00:46:12.570 --> 00:46:15.190
I mean, myself, we've all, those of us in the

00:46:15.190 --> 00:46:17.309
Jewish vegan world, we've seen it so many times,

00:46:17.429 --> 00:46:20.429
like big... vegan influencers, you know, they

00:46:20.429 --> 00:46:22.570
start wearing the the kaffir and saying all kinds

00:46:22.570 --> 00:46:25.570
of anti -Israel stuff and and uh you know when

00:46:25.570 --> 00:46:27.590
their whole page was just about like vegan food

00:46:27.590 --> 00:46:30.010
all of a sudden it's about politics now and they're

00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:31.869
bringing up Israel and they're saying this about

00:46:31.869 --> 00:46:33.949
Israel and that about Israel and it's a big turn

00:46:33.949 --> 00:46:36.829
off. I've went at the beginning of the war you

00:46:36.829 --> 00:46:39.389
know my vegan rabbi social media page up until

00:46:39.389 --> 00:46:43.050
October 7th 2023 I only talked about veganism

00:46:43.050 --> 00:46:45.710
I never talked about anything else on it on purpose.

00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:49.440
And then after October 7th, I had to. I had to

00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:52.099
talk about Israel. I had to talk about what's

00:46:52.099 --> 00:46:56.039
going on. And I lost tons of followers. I lost

00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.219
probably hundreds of followers, got all kinds

00:46:58.219 --> 00:47:01.480
of horrible either comments or messages. Every

00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:06.440
now and then I still get them. But what I also

00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:10.400
saw is all these influencers using their platforms

00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:14.440
and their pages to spew a lot of hate. against

00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:17.260
Israel, against the Jewish people. And that was,

00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:19.800
I mean, people I really, really liked and really

00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.559
looked up to. I had to unfollow them because

00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.639
I couldn't see it anymore. You know, there's

00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:26.300
this one, I wouldn't say his name, but this is

00:47:26.300 --> 00:47:28.719
one vegan chef. He's got like a million followers

00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:31.179
on Instagram. And all of a sudden he's like showing

00:47:31.179 --> 00:47:33.260
up at the cafe and saying all this stuff. Like,

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:35.099
who are you? Like, what do you even know? What

00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:36.900
did you even know about any of this before October

00:47:36.900 --> 00:47:39.500
7th? You know, so you watched a few TikTok videos

00:47:39.500 --> 00:47:41.860
and now you think, you know, you know everything.

00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.000
It's very disturbing. It's very disturbing. So

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:48.840
it's very painful. And I'm not sure in our generation,

00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:51.000
you know, that there's going to be much healing

00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.940
there. So we're just continuing our work, you

00:47:52.940 --> 00:47:56.780
know, on our own and doing it together in our

00:47:56.780 --> 00:48:01.380
way. You mentioned comparisons to the Holocaust.

00:48:02.179 --> 00:48:05.760
Now, I believe that what Peter did with that

00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:10.579
Holocaust campaign was in pretty bad taste, and

00:48:10.579 --> 00:48:14.699
that is a euphemism. But at the same time, there

00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:18.599
is work, you know, for instance, the book, An

00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:21.800
Eternal Treblingham. And, you know, there is

00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:26.309
the fact that you can... or at least, you know,

00:48:26.389 --> 00:48:29.489
I've done it and other activists have done it

00:48:29.489 --> 00:48:33.250
to say, you know, there is a animal Holocaust,

00:48:33.409 --> 00:48:36.869
you know, I'm not going to put pictures of Holocaust

00:48:36.869 --> 00:48:39.550
victims in front of, but, you know, just saying

00:48:39.550 --> 00:48:47.570
it. Do you think that also is offensive to the

00:48:47.570 --> 00:48:52.739
Jewish community? What do you make of the book,

00:48:52.940 --> 00:48:56.260
An Eternal Treblinka, if you know about it? I'm

00:48:56.260 --> 00:49:00.659
aware of it, yeah. It's interesting. I 100 %

00:49:00.659 --> 00:49:03.760
understand why Jews take offense to it, without

00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:09.079
a doubt. I get it. The Holocaust is still very

00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:13.320
recent in Jewish history, just about 80 years

00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:15.159
since the end of World War II and the end of

00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:20.750
the Holocaust. Many of us have family members,

00:49:20.929 --> 00:49:23.590
you know, none that we met obviously, but that

00:49:23.590 --> 00:49:26.409
we've been told about that were murdered in the

00:49:26.409 --> 00:49:28.349
Holocaust. My own family on my mother's side,

00:49:28.730 --> 00:49:31.389
her parents were from Poland. They got out before

00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:33.130
the war, but more than half of their families

00:49:33.130 --> 00:49:35.349
were murdered in the Holocaust. So like we grew

00:49:35.349 --> 00:49:37.210
up with this stuff. Like we grew up with the

00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:41.670
Holocaust like fresh in our minds. So I get why

00:49:41.670 --> 00:49:44.010
Jews have that reaction. I think they're 100

00:49:44.010 --> 00:49:50.210
% right. I personally, as a vegan, I get it.

00:49:50.489 --> 00:49:55.130
I get the comparison because from the perspective

00:49:55.130 --> 00:49:58.590
of the animals this is, and this is very controversial

00:49:58.590 --> 00:50:01.809
what I'm about to say, it's worse than the Holocaust.

00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:05.429
The numbers are far greater like you said at

00:50:05.429 --> 00:50:07.710
the beginning. We're not talking about millions,

00:50:07.809 --> 00:50:09.570
we're talking about billions and that takes nothing

00:50:09.570 --> 00:50:13.159
away from the tragedy. and the horrors of the

00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:15.320
Holocaust. It takes nothing away from that. But

00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:17.739
at the same time, when we look at reality from

00:50:17.739 --> 00:50:19.579
the perspective of the animals going through

00:50:19.579 --> 00:50:21.900
the factory farming world, it is an absolute

00:50:21.900 --> 00:50:26.420
Holocaust. From the day that they're forced to

00:50:26.420 --> 00:50:28.639
be born to the day that they're forced to be

00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:33.400
killed. So I do agree that it's a Holocaust from

00:50:33.400 --> 00:50:35.699
their perspective on a magnitude that we can't

00:50:35.699 --> 00:50:40.719
even imagine. And so I personally do not find

00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:44.940
a fence in the comparison. I don't really talk

00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:47.639
about that opinion of mine because almost even

00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:50.699
other Jewish vegans that I'm connected to, they

00:50:50.699 --> 00:50:53.039
do take offense to it and I understand that and

00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.940
I respect it. So I think I'm a minority opinion

00:50:55.940 --> 00:51:01.559
on that. But I think if we understood what's

00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:03.300
going on in the factory farming world and what

00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:07.199
these animals are going through from their perspective,

00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:11.550
what they're going through, That maybe maybe

00:51:11.550 --> 00:51:13.550
we have a higher chances of people opening up

00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:17.829
their hearts and making changes So I I get Peter's

00:51:17.829 --> 00:51:20.329
tactics I get there like in your face intense

00:51:20.329 --> 00:51:23.309
like because it's real It's it is intense and

00:51:23.309 --> 00:51:24.889
it's actually happening every single second.

00:51:25.389 --> 00:51:28.309
So I I actually understand them why they did

00:51:28.309 --> 00:51:34.829
that Do you think that we should be at a certain

00:51:34.829 --> 00:51:39.000
level? I'm comfortable with offending people

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:47.280
in our activism. Yes, I do. People have to be

00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:49.119
shaken out of their comfort zones. And there's

00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:51.099
lots of causes. There's lots of issues. I'm sure

00:51:51.099 --> 00:51:53.039
there's causes and issues that I need to be shaken

00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:58.000
out of my comfort zone for sure. Right. I'm sure,

00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:00.630
you know. People can come up to me and say things

00:52:00.630 --> 00:52:02.769
about my lifestyle choices. Where about my clothing

00:52:02.769 --> 00:52:05.449
from? You know, I don't buy all like, you know,

00:52:05.570 --> 00:52:08.630
sensitive and aware and conscious and organic

00:52:08.630 --> 00:52:11.190
and handmade clothing. I know my clothing comes

00:52:11.190 --> 00:52:14.409
from factories and that's a real problem. So,

00:52:14.849 --> 00:52:17.090
you know, I'm not perfect. None of us are perfect.

00:52:17.130 --> 00:52:19.389
We live in a very problematic world in terms

00:52:19.389 --> 00:52:22.590
of striving for perfection in our lifestyle choices.

00:52:23.949 --> 00:52:26.900
And I'm aware of that. But yes, I think people

00:52:26.900 --> 00:52:29.340
need to be shocked sometimes, not all the time

00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:32.360
because then you'll lose them. But I think shock

00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:37.340
activism is proper, in the right measure, at

00:52:37.340 --> 00:52:40.320
the right time and in the right way. Because

00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:44.179
people, you know, sometimes I, you know, I might

00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:46.119
be like, you know, on my phone and I'm on Instagram

00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:48.059
and I see, you know, Half of the things I see

00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:49.860
on Instagram have to do with veganism just because

00:52:49.860 --> 00:52:52.519
of the algorithm. Um, and so I'll see a video

00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:54.840
or a picture of animal suffering. And if someone's

00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:57.440
next to me who eats animals, I'll show them that

00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.719
right away. They got freaked out. Why did you

00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:01.920
show that to me? I'm like, hello, this is what

00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:04.380
you eat. You know, what are you talking about?

00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:07.300
So I think there's absolutely a space for that.

00:53:07.579 --> 00:53:12.119
Uh, we need a multi kind of, uh, multifaceted

00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:15.789
approach, but I think that's one that. It's important

00:53:15.789 --> 00:53:17.869
to use, again, in the right way and in the right

00:53:17.869 --> 00:53:24.130
measure at the right time. You said you're based

00:53:24.130 --> 00:53:27.650
in Israel. What is the state of animal welfare

00:53:27.650 --> 00:53:33.690
and animal rights in Israel? Horrible, just like

00:53:33.690 --> 00:53:38.269
most other places. There is a relatively large

00:53:38.269 --> 00:53:43.269
vegan and vegetarian community here. statistics

00:53:43.269 --> 00:53:45.730
come out and say that Israel per capita is one

00:53:45.730 --> 00:53:48.829
of the most vegan countries in the world, which

00:53:48.829 --> 00:53:50.969
is really nice to know. And about five percent

00:53:50.969 --> 00:53:53.210
of the population is vegan. If you include vegetarians,

00:53:53.210 --> 00:53:56.269
it goes up to 13 percent, which is pretty high.

00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:02.670
But at the same time, it's a meat heavy society

00:54:02.670 --> 00:54:05.489
and animals here are treated just as poorly as

00:54:05.489 --> 00:54:08.789
in other places. So unfortunately, you know.

00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:12.000
not much good to share when it comes to that.

00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:14.840
I feel like in Israel, but I think this is happening

00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:17.579
globally as well, like the vegan movement is

00:54:17.579 --> 00:54:19.780
growing, awareness is growing, but at the same

00:54:19.780 --> 00:54:23.679
time, the pace at which people eat animals is

00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:27.920
not slowing down. If anything, it's kind of growing.

00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:31.219
And so I feel like these two movements are growing

00:54:31.219 --> 00:54:35.320
simultaneously and parallel to each other. So

00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:39.920
yeah, so it's nice to see the vegan expansion

00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:46.199
in Israel, but it's upsetting to see what's happening

00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:48.940
in the animal agriculture world, that it's not

00:54:48.940 --> 00:54:51.619
very enlightened and it's just as bad as other

00:54:51.619 --> 00:54:59.500
places. Five percent is a gigantic voting bloc.

00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:08.010
Why aren't we seeing more pro -animal... progress

00:55:08.010 --> 00:55:12.369
reflected in Israeli politics? Or are we that

00:55:12.369 --> 00:55:16.190
I'm not aware of? Very good question. I'll say

00:55:16.190 --> 00:55:18.750
two things. One, there have been successes along

00:55:18.750 --> 00:55:22.750
the way in terms of animal rights and animal

00:55:22.750 --> 00:55:27.969
welfare in Israel. Certain things having to do

00:55:27.969 --> 00:55:32.150
with fur and certain kind of animal, I hate saying

00:55:32.150 --> 00:55:34.230
the word animal products, but you know, food

00:55:34.230 --> 00:55:35.889
that comes from animals, food products that come

00:55:35.889 --> 00:55:40.730
from animals, live transports. I believe if I

00:55:40.730 --> 00:55:42.409
remember correctly there was a law that was recently

00:55:42.409 --> 00:55:47.269
passed that by a certain year in the now for

00:55:47.269 --> 00:55:49.909
our future that that will be banned in Israel.

00:55:49.989 --> 00:55:52.710
I have to look that up again to make sure that

00:55:52.710 --> 00:55:56.840
that's correct but I remember seeing that. But

00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:59.400
it's an interesting question you're asking because

00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.659
as you can imagine, politics here in Israel are

00:56:01.659 --> 00:56:03.539
very different than politics elsewhere because

00:56:03.539 --> 00:56:06.280
we're dealing with so many security issues and

00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:10.079
politics here are very security driven. And so

00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:12.360
it's not, you know, like in other places where,

00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:13.780
you know, there's all these, you know, you're

00:56:13.780 --> 00:56:15.340
voting for someone because of what they say about

00:56:15.340 --> 00:56:17.280
the environment and what they say about this

00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:19.880
cause and that cause. It's like literally on

00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.739
some level, especially during wartime, it's like

00:56:22.739 --> 00:56:27.079
a single issue political It's like, what are

00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:29.739
you going to do for security? We're constantly

00:56:29.739 --> 00:56:34.699
facing real intense security challenges. So what

00:56:34.699 --> 00:56:36.500
are you going to do to make the country stronger

00:56:36.500 --> 00:56:40.519
and ensure our survival? So because of that,

00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:43.840
other issues get a back burner. And while there

00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:46.719
are members of the Israeli parliament that do

00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:49.920
care about these issues and do push forward legislation

00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:52.880
that does happen, I know a couple of politicians

00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:57.099
over the last few years who are members of the

00:56:57.099 --> 00:57:02.980
Knesset, who were vegan, which was amazing. But

00:57:02.980 --> 00:57:10.559
still, it doesn't get spoken about very much.

00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:15.619
It's really about, again, how you fight our enemies

00:57:15.619 --> 00:57:19.639
in the most effective way possible. And it really

00:57:19.639 --> 00:57:21.760
kind of takes up most of the space here politically.

00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:29.039
Yeah, that's really interesting. Sorry for being

00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:31.920
unfamiliar, but is it a proportional democracy

00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:37.059
system in Israel? Is there a place for smaller

00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:45.159
parties to win positions in the government or

00:57:45.159 --> 00:57:49.500
even elect MPs in the Knesset or something like

00:57:49.500 --> 00:57:53.949
that? There is on paper. Yes, absolutely You

00:57:53.949 --> 00:57:56.170
know, it's not a two -party system. It's a multi

00:57:56.170 --> 00:57:58.130
-party system It's dozens of parties when you

00:57:58.130 --> 00:58:00.889
go to vote here in Israel. You literally see

00:58:00.889 --> 00:58:04.050
dozens of choices Which on one level is great,

00:58:04.110 --> 00:58:05.630
but most of them never passed the threshold.

00:58:05.630 --> 00:58:09.309
So it's kind of pointless Doesn't really have

00:58:09.309 --> 00:58:13.090
an impact and and still it's usually the same

00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:16.440
kind of seven or eight political parties that

00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:17.860
make it through. And then they're the ones who

00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:19.599
have to kind of scramble around to make a coalition.

00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:22.480
Right. You know, the winning party gets the first

00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:25.219
chance to make a coalition. If they do great.

00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:28.800
If not, then the second one gets to and the second

00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:31.480
place is usually, you know, the opposition to

00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:35.920
the to the to the leading political party. But

00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:38.280
it does create space. And there are, you know.

00:58:39.980 --> 00:58:42.400
political organizations based on all kinds of

00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.739
issues, single issues as a result. But again,

00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:47.500
the problem is that they don't make it through

00:58:47.500 --> 00:58:50.039
the threshold so they don't have the impact that

00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.559
they're seeking. And they're never ever involved

00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:55.699
in the coalition, if they even get through the

00:58:55.699 --> 00:58:58.420
threshold, which they usually don't, except to

00:58:58.420 --> 00:59:00.840
get a certain number of votes to get into the

00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.619
parliament. So a lot of people look at it as

00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:07.579
wasted votes. Even if they care about that single

00:59:07.579 --> 00:59:09.460
issue, they're like I'm not gonna vote because

00:59:09.460 --> 00:59:11.320
they're not gonna get through I rather give my

00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.940
vote to this party who I believe in how they're

00:59:13.940 --> 00:59:15.920
gonna approach security issues that always goes

00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:20.739
back to that so it is very democratic in that

00:59:20.739 --> 00:59:24.139
sense, but in the end when when the coalition

00:59:24.139 --> 00:59:26.440
is coalition is actually built it's there's not

00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:29.400
a lot of if any of these single -issue parties

00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:35.789
represented Yeah, I'm asking that because I The

00:59:35.789 --> 00:59:40.650
bet here in Canada is to get, you know, proportional

00:59:40.650 --> 00:59:47.190
democratic system in order to get power for pro

00:59:47.190 --> 00:59:52.469
animal party and make, you know, more progress.

00:59:54.210 --> 00:59:56.590
Yeah, listeners will understand, you know, I've

00:59:56.590 --> 01:00:00.820
had many conversations about that. mostly with

01:00:00.820 --> 01:00:05.019
Liz White, who's the incredible leader of the

01:00:05.019 --> 01:00:09.880
Animal Protection Party of Canada. Okay, I want

01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:16.340
to end the conversation, Rabbi, with something

01:00:16.340 --> 01:00:20.079
else you're specialized in, which is matchmaking.

01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:25.659
And I want to hear how you got into that and,

01:00:25.659 --> 01:00:31.019
you know, What is your rate of success? And maybe

01:00:31.019 --> 01:00:34.719
if you have, you know, stories to share about,

01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:37.880
you know, happy stories about that, I would love

01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:40.940
to hear them. Great. Yeah. So I never thought

01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:42.940
I'd get into matchmaking after my vegan rather

01:00:42.940 --> 01:00:46.659
work. You know, the platform I started about

01:00:46.659 --> 01:00:48.980
four years ago, I've been doing Jewish environmental

01:00:48.980 --> 01:00:51.639
education for over 20 years. And within that,

01:00:51.659 --> 01:00:55.570
again, focus on animal welfare and veganism.

01:00:55.929 --> 01:00:59.289
But really with the creation of Vegan Rabbi,

01:00:59.530 --> 01:01:03.590
it was definitely the most focused work and outreach

01:01:03.590 --> 01:01:07.250
that I've done in my whole life. And it's become

01:01:07.250 --> 01:01:08.869
a big part of my life and a growing part of my

01:01:08.869 --> 01:01:12.989
life. And already within the first year of creating

01:01:12.989 --> 01:01:16.250
Vegan Rabbi, singles who are in my network...

01:01:16.349 --> 01:01:18.710
you know followers of mine on social media they

01:01:18.710 --> 01:01:20.389
got started getting in touch with me one after

01:01:20.389 --> 01:01:23.489
the other after the other asking hey i'm jewish

01:01:23.489 --> 01:01:25.809
vegan single looking for somebody do you happen

01:01:25.809 --> 01:01:27.889
to know anyone can help me and at first i'm like

01:01:27.889 --> 01:01:29.769
what do i know about any of this i'm not a matchmaker

01:01:29.769 --> 01:01:32.670
i'm not you know and then i just kept hearing

01:01:32.670 --> 01:01:34.429
from people i mean wait a minute there's something

01:01:34.429 --> 01:01:36.789
happening here right uh the jewish world is very

01:01:36.789 --> 01:01:39.269
much focused on matchmaking but maybe there's

01:01:39.269 --> 01:01:41.630
nothing specifically for jewish vegan vegetarian

01:01:41.630 --> 01:01:45.320
singles and I did some scouring around the internet,

01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:47.539
found nothing, and I decided I'm going to do

01:01:47.539 --> 01:01:50.980
something. I had no background, no experience,

01:01:51.019 --> 01:01:53.059
but I'm going to try. And I built a database

01:01:53.059 --> 01:01:57.380
and I invited people to join it. And shortly

01:01:57.380 --> 01:02:00.440
after that, a friend of mine built like a free

01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:04.199
matchmaking website. So I kind of uploaded my

01:02:04.199 --> 01:02:06.840
database members to his platform. And then shortly

01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.019
after that, I met a woman named Aliza Ben Shalom.

01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:12.460
who was the star of the Netflix show Jewish Matchmaking.

01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:14.840
She had recently moved to the town I live in

01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:17.420
in Israel. And I told her, this was before the

01:02:17.420 --> 01:02:19.380
Netflix show came out, but I knew she was a matchmaker.

01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:20.800
And I told her about what I was starting to get

01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:22.340
into. She was like, wow, we should talk. And

01:02:22.340 --> 01:02:23.619
I told her about what I was doing. She actually

01:02:23.619 --> 01:02:26.039
used to be vegan, interesting enough. She's no

01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:28.440
longer now. But I told her what I was doing and

01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:30.400
she invited me to train with her. I'm like, wow,

01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:33.380
I get to train with this top matchmaker. That's

01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:34.820
amazing. So I did a whole training with her.

01:02:35.059 --> 01:02:38.179
And then she invited me to join her team and

01:02:38.179 --> 01:02:40.679
her staff. which I did for over a year and a

01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:43.099
half. I recently left a couple of months ago,

01:02:43.219 --> 01:02:46.780
but basically that was just incredible experience

01:02:46.780 --> 01:02:49.239
learning the ins and outs of the, of the world

01:02:49.239 --> 01:02:52.159
of matchmaking and dating coaching. And that's

01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:55.719
become a part of my life as well. And so, you

01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:58.360
know, specifically since, um, leaving working

01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:00.260
with her, I've been kind of like investing my

01:03:00.260 --> 01:03:05.059
energies more again, uh, in my niche. in the

01:03:05.059 --> 01:03:07.239
Jewish matchmaking world for Jewish, vegan, vegetarian

01:03:07.239 --> 01:03:09.139
singles. I have a whole network of hundreds and

01:03:09.139 --> 01:03:12.059
hundreds of people and people reach out to me.

01:03:12.639 --> 01:03:15.579
You know, they heard about me, they get my number

01:03:15.579 --> 01:03:17.539
from somebody, they tell me their story, they

01:03:17.539 --> 01:03:20.579
share their bio and ask if I know of anybody.

01:03:20.739 --> 01:03:22.699
So, you know, I have lots of people in my network,

01:03:22.860 --> 01:03:25.159
lots of people I keep in mind and then there's

01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:26.780
some people I work with, like actually like in

01:03:26.780 --> 01:03:29.039
a very official one -on -one way in terms of

01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:31.869
whether it's dating coaching or full -on matchmaking.

01:03:32.690 --> 01:03:36.130
It's an ancient Jewish art, Jewish matchmaking,

01:03:36.550 --> 01:03:38.530
and you know, it's really based on these values

01:03:38.530 --> 01:03:40.289
that we're talking about and I understand it

01:03:40.289 --> 01:03:43.630
because I was in the same place many, many years

01:03:43.630 --> 01:03:45.909
ago when I was dating and looking, you know,

01:03:45.949 --> 01:03:47.530
to meet someone and looking to get married that

01:03:47.530 --> 01:03:50.889
I wanted to, one of the top, if not the top things

01:03:50.889 --> 01:03:53.969
on my list that was so important to me is that

01:03:53.969 --> 01:03:56.090
someone who shares this lifestyle with me, shares

01:03:56.090 --> 01:03:59.030
these food choices and lifestyle choices with

01:03:59.030 --> 01:04:02.110
me and these you know, the concern for the environment,

01:04:02.309 --> 01:04:04.769
for animal welfare. That was very, very top of

01:04:04.769 --> 01:04:08.530
the list for me. And I met, you know, different

01:04:08.530 --> 01:04:10.829
women, different great women, but not always

01:04:10.829 --> 01:04:15.030
did they share that passion and that compassion

01:04:15.030 --> 01:04:20.150
until I did, and that was my wife. And so the

01:04:20.150 --> 01:04:22.510
singles who I'm connected to with now or work

01:04:22.510 --> 01:04:25.150
with, I very much understand where they're coming

01:04:25.150 --> 01:04:27.989
from. Because again, I went through that. I was

01:04:27.989 --> 01:04:30.730
in that same place many years ago. And just for

01:04:30.730 --> 01:04:33.349
me, it's just, you know, to bring two people

01:04:33.349 --> 01:04:35.690
together is an incredible thing in and of itself.

01:04:35.929 --> 01:04:38.469
And to bring two, you know, people with shared

01:04:38.469 --> 01:04:40.909
values about the environment and about the animal

01:04:40.909 --> 01:04:43.739
welfare and about human health and protection

01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:46.079
of our world is even for me, even greater. So

01:04:46.079 --> 01:04:47.699
it's, you know, to build, to help two people

01:04:47.699 --> 01:04:50.420
come together, who will then build a home based

01:04:50.420 --> 01:04:52.639
on those values and raise children with those

01:04:52.639 --> 01:04:55.500
values. It's just, you know, talk about trying

01:04:55.500 --> 01:04:57.820
to change the world. It's, it's, it's one of

01:04:57.820 --> 01:05:00.320
the ways, you know, to make the world a better

01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:05.400
place. I know I said, you know, last question,

01:05:05.460 --> 01:05:14.449
but I lied. So you mentioned shared values. We

01:05:14.449 --> 01:05:18.010
often hear about chemistry, how important it

01:05:18.010 --> 01:05:22.150
is to have chemistry, but I feel not enough about

01:05:22.150 --> 01:05:25.690
shared values. Can you comment on that? Yeah,

01:05:25.750 --> 01:05:27.489
look, you know, again, I talk to all kinds of

01:05:27.489 --> 01:05:30.670
people. I'm in touch with vegan singles, or have

01:05:30.670 --> 01:05:33.289
been, or currently am. Like, I can only date

01:05:33.289 --> 01:05:35.829
a vegan. Only date a vegan. There's no way, you

01:05:35.829 --> 01:05:38.889
know. And then I know vegan singles who are like,

01:05:38.969 --> 01:05:41.369
you know, ideally she's vegan, but if she's vegetarian,

01:05:41.849 --> 01:05:43.949
that's fine as well. And even people like, you

01:05:43.949 --> 01:05:47.429
know what, I'm very open, you know, as long as

01:05:47.429 --> 01:05:51.130
we match up in other ways. And hopefully she'll...

01:05:51.210 --> 01:05:53.469
come towards my side you know or vice versa like

01:05:53.469 --> 01:05:55.570
a girl talking about a guy so I meet all kinds

01:05:55.570 --> 01:05:59.369
of people right but yeah you know for for the

01:05:59.369 --> 01:06:03.570
majority of them the shared value aspect is very

01:06:03.570 --> 01:06:05.570
very important and and they're just like I don't

01:06:05.570 --> 01:06:08.900
I don't want to open up my fridge and see you

01:06:08.900 --> 01:06:11.980
know, see chicken and steak and all these different

01:06:11.980 --> 01:06:14.420
things and it's really really important to them

01:06:14.420 --> 01:06:17.880
and they want their kitchen to be a reflection

01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:20.079
of their values and they want their spouse to

01:06:20.079 --> 01:06:23.699
also share in that. So it's really really important.

01:06:23.860 --> 01:06:25.800
Shared values is just so important in terms of

01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:29.860
relationships and marriage in general but especially

01:06:29.860 --> 01:06:34.179
for vegans and vegetarians who have made very

01:06:34.179 --> 01:06:37.619
specific choices in their life. And their lives

01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:40.940
and their lifestyles reflect that when it comes

01:06:40.940 --> 01:06:42.800
to finding someone to spend, God willing, the

01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:46.300
rest of their life with, this is just a very,

01:06:46.300 --> 01:06:49.380
very high importance and will help. It's not

01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:53.019
a guarantee, but it will definitely help to strengthen

01:06:53.019 --> 01:06:55.679
the bonds between them and to maintain the strength

01:06:55.679 --> 01:06:58.800
of their bonds. I want to ask more questions

01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:02.179
because we're going to actually record a special

01:07:02.179 --> 01:07:07.039
episode just about that with also, you know,

01:07:07.239 --> 01:07:11.800
vegan activist couples who will be participating

01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:16.039
in this group conversation. I'm really looking

01:07:16.039 --> 01:07:20.780
forward to having that conversation because every

01:07:20.780 --> 01:07:23.380
time I open social media, I feel like it's one

01:07:23.380 --> 01:07:27.780
of the top issue. People asking questions or

01:07:27.780 --> 01:07:31.300
commenting about how it is tough to find someone

01:07:31.300 --> 01:07:35.789
who's vegan. or being in a relationship with

01:07:35.789 --> 01:07:39.750
someone who's not vegan comes with a whole lot

01:07:39.750 --> 01:07:46.510
of troubles. And I feel people need help navigating

01:07:46.510 --> 01:07:51.510
the dating world, at least vegans. But yeah,

01:07:51.530 --> 01:07:54.929
I'm looking forward to that conversation. Same

01:07:54.929 --> 01:07:56.730
here. It was a great conversation to have. Looking

01:07:56.730 --> 01:08:02.750
forward as well. Wonderful. Rabbi, did you have

01:08:02.750 --> 01:08:05.809
anything to add before I stopped the recording?

01:08:06.610 --> 01:08:08.070
First of all, just say thank you so much for

01:08:08.070 --> 01:08:11.309
this opportunity to speak with you and about

01:08:11.309 --> 01:08:13.909
this very important topic. Really a pleasure

01:08:13.909 --> 01:08:16.409
and an honor. And just really to sum up, you

01:08:16.409 --> 01:08:18.890
know, kind of what we're focusing on before that,

01:08:18.890 --> 01:08:22.189
you know, I think a lot of people today look

01:08:22.189 --> 01:08:24.930
at veganism as extreme and vegans as extreme.

01:08:25.130 --> 01:08:26.770
But really, when you look at the root of it all,

01:08:26.890 --> 01:08:29.369
it's like We're just trying to be like nice people.

01:08:29.489 --> 01:08:31.029
We're trying to be the best people that we can

01:08:31.029 --> 01:08:33.829
be and try to create the best world we can create.

01:08:34.430 --> 01:08:37.350
It's really so much about such a basic value

01:08:37.350 --> 01:08:40.689
of creating a better world, more goodness in

01:08:40.689 --> 01:08:42.449
the world. Like who doesn't want less pain and

01:08:42.449 --> 01:08:44.449
suffering in the world? You know, who doesn't

01:08:44.449 --> 01:08:46.750
want more health in the world? Who doesn't want

01:08:46.750 --> 01:08:48.350
more wholeness and wellness in the world? That's

01:08:48.350 --> 01:08:52.750
what it's all about, right? And I think it's

01:08:52.750 --> 01:08:54.289
important for people to know that and I think

01:08:54.289 --> 01:08:56.270
it's important for us vegans to kind of broadcast

01:08:56.270 --> 01:08:59.529
that and share that in our messaging so people

01:08:59.529 --> 01:09:01.050
can really understand where we're coming from

01:09:01.050 --> 01:09:03.949
and why we're doing this work. Wonderful, great

01:09:03.949 --> 01:09:08.409
parting words. Again, Rabbi Akiva, thank you

01:09:08.409 --> 01:09:12.170
so much for your time and for answering my questions.

01:09:12.930 --> 01:09:16.060
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite

01:09:16.060 --> 01:09:18.500
you to share this podcast with the vegans you

01:09:18.500 --> 01:09:22.119
know. Let's encourage more people to take action.

01:09:23.039 --> 01:09:25.699
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will

01:09:25.699 --> 01:09:28.260
see you next Tuesday for a new episode.