Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan,
and if you are a dog lover, this episode is for
you. Because today we are talking about Brambles,
a very special Border Collie who lived 175 years,
that is, dog years, making her one of the top
10 longest living dogs according to the Guinness
World Records. And what makes this story even
more special is that Brembles was vegan. In fact,
she is considered to be the very first vegan
dog in recorded history. As a treat for all of
us, I have today with me Brembles' mom Anne Heritage,
who I consider to be a pioneer of the vegan movement.
Just think... how nowadays we have so many vegan
dog food brands and products readily available,
and all of that originated with Anne and Brembo's
story. In our time together, we discussed her
groundbreaking book, Brembo, The Dog Who Wanted
to Live Forever, which I highly recommend. It
is a short yet impactful read. Link to the book
in the episode's notes. We also discussed the
resurrection of the dire wolves, your local veterinary
clinics being acquired by Mars, the chocolate
bar conglomerate, cooking for your animals and
much much more. You decided to feed your dog
a vegan diet and is there any health advantage
to doing so because I guess people who are listening
are thinking, you know, my dog, I want to spend
unlimited time with that dog. He's my best friend.
He's a member of the family. So they want the
dog to be healthy. They want the dog to live
a long time. So what do you say to those people?
OK, so if you look at the longevity of vegan
dogs, including my own, and the longevity of
dogs that stay on a carnivorous diet, especially
if they're on a commercial diet and it's not
done by the carer, you see that vegan dogs do,
in fact, live longer. They are healthier. People
who have their dogs on a carnivorous diet will
often say they get issues, especially skin issues,
chronic diseases, cancers. over a relatively
short period of time, and you find with vegan
dogs, if you've transitioned your dog from a
carnivorous diet to a vegan diet, you'll find
normally any skin issues will clear up, chronic
health issues may vanish, like arthritis and
so forth. My dogs did live very long lives. Bramble
was 25, Floyd made 20, Luck made 20, and I had
seven dogs. Two were killed by vets. The rest
live to 19, 20, 25. So basically, in my own experience,
they just live much longer, healthier lives if
they're fed properly. You do have to take on
the responsibility yourself of researching what
vitamins and minerals, you know, nutrients they
need. Dogs need about 67 vitamins and minerals
every day. And you can do this easily yourself.
All the food I Cooked for them was organic. A
lot of it I grew myself. I grew all their veg
and some of the fruits Obviously, it's more tricky
to grow rice and stuff. So I had to buy organic
rice and lentils and CVP But basically it's cheaper.
They are healthier. They like the food Normally
a dog that's been fed on some rubbish out of
packets basically it's like feeding it junk food
and When you actually cook them a proper meal,
so you can see the difference in their enjoyment
So there's kind of multiple reasons to feed dogs
vegan and health would be at the top of the list.
What do you make of people's hesitation to feeding
their dog a vegan diet because they assume that
dogs are carnivorous creatures, you know, and
I guess they do because first of all, you look
at the teeth and they have those long pointy
teeth. And so you think of them as carnivorous.
I think it's lack of education. If anybody actually
bothered to research it before they say that,
dogs are actually scavengers. They can eat meat.
They can eat plant -based. They can eat a mixture
of both. So dogs have evolved to eat what surrounds
them. And dogs that are in natural surroundings
will probably eat fruits and other little creatures
they find. The healthiest diet for a dog is plant
-based and they just, they do enjoy it. So, you
know, people may say, oh, it's unnatural, but
then so are computers, TVs, cars, all the things
people use. So it's not really a good... yardstick
to use. I think one of the reasons people are
hesitant to feed plant -based, it's not always
that they don't trust the plant -based food but
they don't trust themselves. I'm co -admin a
dog food and dog health website and quite often
we find people are saying it all sounds really
good but I, they are too nervous to do it and
I would say to those people do your research,
look at the nutrients the dog actually needs,
find out what the nutrients are in and on our
websites we have a sort of master recipe which
tells you all the nutrients they do need and
what those nutrients are in so once they've done
their research I would just say you know have
a leap of faith a bit of confidence and look
at all the vegan dogs out there that are thriving
there are many many out there now and just put
in put in the work source the food cook it properly
and just reassure yourself that you are good
enough to do their food. Looking at it the other
way round, what are you saying about your confidence
in yourself or how much you care about your dog?
If you're just going into a shop buying some
rubbish in a packet or tin which has all its
own problems, a lot of it has industrial chemicals
in and you're just shoving this in your dog's
mouth because you lack a bit of confidence. The
other thing is It's my belief that dog food companies
and Big Pharma are kind of owned by the same
interests. So as with human health, people are
encouraged to feed themselves and animals in
their lives, kind of essentially what is junk
food. And then they will get ill and then they
will go to the vet or the doctor and Big Pharma
steps in. So you're basically turning the dog
in your care. into a patient for vets to just
keep selling you drugs for the dog. And vets
aren't great at managing chronic conditions.
If something in the commercial food you're feeding
your dog makes it have skin problems, the best
thing to do is take that muck out of the dog's
diet and feed her properly. And then you don't
need to shove. big pharma drugs down their throats.
Really, it's in people's hands. I just wish everyone
would do a lot more research and then they can
see for themselves why plant -based dog food
is better. It's a really interesting point. I
was about to ask you, if it is healthier to feed
your dog a vegan diet, then why are the big companies
out there not pushing that's not pushing vegan
dog food and instead they are pushing the kind
of you know crap food you you mentioned. Yeah
they're producing crap food because they want
your dog to be unwell for a long period of time
they don't want to kill your dog immediately
they want your dog to be a patient for all their
life preferably and so they're going to feed
stuff some of it will be stuff your dog can eat
and other things they're putting like industrial
chemicals will make your dog ill and I think
people are frightened to say this and they think
big farmers are going to come along and kill
them and that may well happen because it's happened
a lot with human health where people have spoken
out they've ended up getting assassinated basically
for speaking out so I think people are frightened
to say anything about it but big farmers perspective
and dog food perspective is the longer we keep
them old more drugs we're going to sell them
and you know anyone that's got a dog that goes
to vets knows how expensive it can be when we
had dogs if you needed a call out for a dog and
had an accident or something like that you you
know you're paying 100 quid up front before you
even got to the consultation all the drugs you
know vets are expensive and expect to avoid them
where you can if you feed properly and exercise
properly and do all those other things dogs need
like keep stress to minimum then you know hopefully
you will be able to swear by the bat and not
go there because in my opinion it's just my opinion
born out by my experience vets are not really
there to help your dog and there'll be vets that
think they're there to help your dog but if they're
selling drugs they're probably not ultimately
doing anything helpful in the long run and all
these drugs have side effects and also few human
studies even or animal studies are done where
drugs or therefore people or dogs are looked
at in the way they interact with other drugs
so if your dog is on three different drugs maybe
it's got a problem with its heart and you know
some kind of inflammation something else how
are these drugs interacting with each other nobody
bothers to do those studies and if they could
be bothered they wouldn't because that's not
to their benefit they want your dog ill for a
long time. Before anyone dismisses what you're
saying as, you know, conspiracy, you know, about
those different industries, big pharma. I need
to mention a story that happened recently here
in Quebec, Canada, where I live. There has been
an earthquake here. And for weeks, the big news
was a report. coming from, I think, the Anti
-Corruption Bureau of Canada about how there
were those big conglomerates coming in in Quebec
and just purchasing veterinarian clinics. And
those big conglomerates are also the ones having
monopoly on dog food, cat food, basically pet
food, and monopoly on pharmaceutical products
in the veterinary world. And basically what was
exposed is the fact that our local veterinary
clinics were not owned by our, you know, local
veterinarian, they were owned by big conglomerates
like Mars. And yes, I'm talking about the chocolate
bar, who are big owners of, again, pet food,
too. And so Mars comes in, in Quebec, purchases
those local veterinarian clinics, makes the the
veterinarian sign NDAs that Stop them from telling
their clients that they are now a subsidiary
of Mars. They still keep that facade of being
your local vet clinic. And they increase the
prices of veterinary drugs because you can't
get them anywhere else. It's a shocking it's
shocking because it's the life of some of the
Beings out there that we care about the most
Absolutely. It's exactly the same in the UK now
all the vets as far as I'm aware nearly all the
vets are Belonging to like you say conglomerates
and they're US conglomerates So whatever wherever
you go here, you're going to get kind of more
or less a uniform uh outfit in as much as they
will be selling the same stuff from the same
people um and just to mention also some of the
dog food actually does kill the dogs out right
i don't know if you looked up at sports mix i
think it was called it had 75 dogs i think it
was killed by eating sports mix so they'd probably
put some kind of um industrial uh muck into this
product maybe they put the wrong amount they
wanted to keep them ill for a long time and it
killed them instead um This is what you're looking
at. I think people, maybe they're a bit more
used to looking at the connections between the
human food chain and companies like Monsanto,
because as you know, lots of brands of human
so -called food, junk food, ultimately are owned
by things like Monsanto. So you're getting the
same thing with dog food. You're getting the
same at the top of the pyramid of finances. You've
got Monsanto and then all these products feeding
into it. um are sort of subsidiaries of that
and it's very much like that with the dog food
market um people if people don't believe that
or they can just research it spend some time
looking at and you know tracing back the line
of uh interest on it just follow the money as
they say you you mentioned how um you cooked
um food for for your uh dogs and you know if
i think about my family that's with the generation
of my grandparents would do for their dogs. But
I guess we lost that now. And we again, like
you mentioned, we don't feel confident to cook
for them, like if it's not our place to do so.
So can you say a few words about how we should
maybe regain that confidence and cook for our
dogs? Yeah I think it's really good time now
to do that for your dogs and for yourself because
of the political climate which I won't go into
because it's a whole other long thing but I think
people have to start using their own resources
a lot more and I think the last generation of
younger people for whatever reason. I mean in
the UK education has been dumbed down a lot and
people have not been taught and all because of
the way families have gone. You've got families
that are kind of being different than they were.
You used to have maybe like a family where granny
lived in the house and grandad and the kids and
everybody was in the same place and the families
have moved into different patterns. You've kind
of lost that. links so whereas you you know in
the old days you would have watched your granny
make something from a scratch or your grandad
might have been digging the garden and you know
growing their own veg and people have lost those
skills I'd be you know the first person to recommend
people go and get an allotment or if they've
got some ground or even a you know even a balcony
you can grow stuff just to grow your own food
as much as you can vegetables are just a simple
one and then you can feed your dog organic veg
from your own garden even you know benign stuff
like you if you're gonna go and buy organic veg
that's had to come from somewhere it's hung around
on a shelf there's nothing like picking something
that you've grown yourself and taking it into
cook it in five minutes time because it's just
entirely different thing so I think people if
people involved themselves in the process of
producing their food more and also just maybe
If you don't cook, learn how to cook. And just,
I think it's really important to read things
and do the research on the nutrients and then
how to cook them. But with brambles food, it
was always just really simple. I started off...
As a teenager, I'd gone vegan myself, and I was
quite skint when I was younger. And then I wanted
to take on some rescue dogs. So I figured I'd
looked at it all from a nutritional point of
view. And there was this American nutritionist
called Adele Davis. And unfortunately, she was
a meat eater, and she did promote dairy. But
she did have, aside from that, a lot of useful
charts about what vitamins and minerals were
in which foods and so forth. So I researched
the work of Adele Davis and used um some of the
the values of the nutrients and put that into
the the recipes i was making so i think if people
just give it a go um be confident and if you've
got older people around just ask them how they
did things and bramble's dinner was really simple
so oh yeah the same thing we all had it out the
same pan every night so it would be uh rice lentils
veg tvp um turmeric bit of mint stuff like that
and uh seeds put on after it was cooked, like
chia seeds and flax seeds for the essential oils
and basically it was that simple as just bring
it to the boil, let it simmer for a while for
you know all the vegetable juices to go into
the rice and stuff and that's basically what
they're most of the time. I used to make biscuits
from but they but other than that they'd get
a few biscuits a day in case they were bored
but they just got one big meal a day and it's
so simple to prepare it just stick it all in
a pan and let it simmer for a while. Obviously
we use B12 as well in the form of yeast extracts
because people often say well that would be vitamins
or you can take care of that with yeast extracts.
So it's really easy to cook vegan food for your
dog. And an important question is do they like
vegan food? Are they enjoying it? I think so.
My dogs loved it. And on the website we have,
somebody transitioned a dog a little while back
and she sent us some photos of her dog. The dog's
eyes were like almost popping out of its head
and it's licking the plate and stuff. So a lot
of dogs are being fed this crap. This comes out
of a packet or tin, it's dry, stick a bit of
water on it. it's been hanging around in this
shelf for however long and imagine what it's
like to be eating that all the time so then when
they get something that's you know the veg is
fresh the stuff's been cooked for them there
and then and they can smell it while it's cooking
and all that they love it I've never personally
had a dog that didn't really like it and also
I've fed them once a day because I don't think
you need to keep feeding dogs all day I'm not
sure it's great for their digestion so they would
have one big meal a day eat a big meal, then
they would fall asleep. And, you know, that was
it, they, they wouldn't be fed the next day until
their evening meal. So, you know, it works really
well. You remind me during COVID, when, you know,
everything started shutting down, I was volunteering
for this organization, and trying to get them
sponsorships from pet food companies. And You
know, they would tell me, oh, now everything
is closing down, so we won't get our food from
China. And that's when I realized that most,
you know, pet companies out there make their
food in China, where the standards for, you know,
food control and quality control. are really
sub, you know, substandards. They're really below
what would be judged acceptable in the West.
Yes, a lot of food that we use in the UK is not
human, so -called human -grade food. And this
is basically a lot of bits of dead animals. I
mean, you've probably seen the films yourself
where a load of meat that's from, you know, the
processes which we couldn't put in the human
food chain are put in with some other cereal
filler and dye and you get this thing being extruded
out of a machine and it's like this big horrible
pink jelly thing and then they make it into some
kind of shapes and stick it in a bag and call
it dog food. It makes me speak just really, someone
would give their dog that, would you give that
to your child? I've watched a lot of people do
give that to their child, don't they? They give
that sort of thing. come a long way, it's made
from ingredients. And if you look at a dog food
label, quite often it'll just say meat derivative
cereal, ash, something like that. You don't even
know, you don't know where the animal flesh has
been sourced, how long the creature has been
dead, the conditions she or he was killed in,
all that stuff. You have no way of knowing what's
in it. If you're doing it yourself, cooking yourself,
you know exactly what's gone in it. Okay. I want
to spend some time talking about, uh, Bramble.
Uh, am I pronouncing his name right? She was
a female. Yes. Bramble. So how did you, um, become
the caretaker for, for Bramble? Um, how did,
uh, you know, the love story with Bramble begin?
Well, I had, I'd had no pets when I was younger,
no dogs when I was younger. My dad wouldn't let
me have a dog. So as soon as I moved out of the
house, I thought, OK, I'll take on a rescue dog.
And the first dog I got was called Floyd, and
she looked like she was 20. And Floyd was the
absolute love of my life. And she was so easy
to look after. I'd never looked after a dog before.
I thought, wow, this is so easy. I'll take on
another dog. I can easily take on another one.
I got Bramble, and Bramble was a bit of a mischievous
and stubborn character. And when I got her, I
thought, wow, what have I let myself in for?
I found her in Wales in a rescue. And the day
after we had taken her home with us, there was
some sort of flood. And all the dogs in the rescue
had died. So she got out just in time. She was,
I could say she was very smart, very stubborn.
And I think that's what helped her longevity.
She just didn't decide she wasn't going to die
any time soon. She just wanted to be alive for
a really long time. So I had Floyd and I had
Bramble. They got on really well when they were
younger. As they got a bit older, Bramble became
quite dominating and we ended up walking them
both separately. They had quite a lot of walking
each day and there was myself and my friend who
were walking with them. So they were kept apart
quite a lot. but she was great fun and she understood
lots of things. I'd seen film when I got Freud
initially of somebody who had taught a primate
sign language and I knew it was possible to learn
to communicate with animals in a way that people
maybe don't normally. When I got Floyd and then
later Bramble I spent a lot of time teaching
them human language and also observing how they
communicated so it wasn't just one way I wasn't
teaching them and not you know not listening
to them I was kind of watching because obviously
as you know with dogs most language is body language
so but I taught Floyd a lot of words just pick
up something say ball That sort of thing. And
Freud was very, very smart and picked things
up really quickly. And I learned to watch what
she did. If she wanted something, she would go
and stand by it and point her nose at it, that
sort of stuff. These days, you've got this thing.
I can't remember what it's called. There's some
sort of mat with buttons on it. And people are
teaching animals in their care to use this to
communicate between themselves. the dog will
be trained how to use the buttons and then she
can say walk or went to dinner and things like
this it's amazing so people can now teach their
dog how to use this stuff and have a conversation
but also you know people need to and probably
a lot of people do learn to understand dog behavior
um which is largely obviously not verbal um largely
body language and also dogs exist in a kind of
different space than us in a way because their
main predicate is olfactory they smell things
in a much more intense way than we do so whereas
we if we're not blind we largely see things and
obviously we've got audio and stuff but dogs
are all about smell so that's their experience
of life so basically I I tried to build a base
of communication between us that we so we could
work together if you like and understand each
other and it worked pretty well really so you
know Bramble was great fun she could be a bit
dominating we used to walk her separately from
other dogs because she was always looking to
have a bundle and obviously this is not a good
idea so We would, we would walk her away from
dogs normally, because just a way of looking
at the dogs, they would cross the road sometimes.
But this wasn't because she was vegan, because
all my dogs are vegan, but only Bramble was a
bit like that. So she was a proper character,
really. I think that's the best way of describing
it. You know, talking about the smells. Um, I
was recently interviewing, um, uh, a vegan couple
who made, uh, an art book about their dog called
rain art. And he's also, uh, uh, their dog. He's
also a border Collie. And I found it amazing
because they were talking about how they were
feeding the dog, uh, a vegan diet and how they
were influenced by you. And by your book and
they mentioned Bramble and we had you know we
exchange a few words about that. And one point
they brought up was since they started feeding
Reynard a vegan diet he started smelling better
and I know that there's a you know. I guess for
many people it's an obstacle. You know, dog smell
is an obstacle to taking care of a dog. But have
you noticed the impact of a vegan diet on the
smell of a dog? I can't say I have because my
dogs were only ever vegan from the minute they
came to house. They were just fed a vegan diet,
so they never really smelled any different. But
I take your point. I know when I started eating
vegan diet, I found, I know this sounds strange,
but I found that if I was out somewhere in the
countryside, birds would come a lot closer than
they used to come. And I like feeding birds,
so I actually think, and you know if you eat
garlic, you can kind of smell it through your
pores and your sweat? I think if you're a carnivore,
this does, you know, move through your tracks
very slowly, and you do get that kind of pong
of... I think animals pick these things up and
I think it must be that, that basically you are
what you eat and you smell like that's what you
eat. So probably that's the case with dogs that,
you know, they're just eating veg and grains
and there's not that horrible kind of smell of
corpse going through their tracks basically.
It's the first time I'm hearing that and I thought
it was just in my head that you know animals
change their behavior around me since I became
vegan that you know, they're less I guess afraid
or You know, they they're more, you know inclined
to get closer and things like that. So I'm happy
to witness, to see that there are other vegans
out there who are experiencing that. Yeah, I
think that's really the case. So you don't smell
like a predator anymore when you're just eating
vegetables and fruits and stuff. So I guess animals
whose sense of smell is usually much more cute
than ours, obviously smell this person is not
a threat to me. So I mentioned how that vegan
couple, Sol and Tom, were influenced by your
book and by your story. So how did Bramble become
a star? Well, I kind of never think of her as
a star. She was a family member, obviously, and
when she got really, really old, I thought...
the other dogs as well because I say Floyd lived
to 20 and the rest some got to 20 some got to
19. I thought well you know this diet and regime
because it was kind of like it was like a care
plan if you like all those things that came together
with the diet, the exercise, the stress reduction
strategies and so forth were really working and
making me live a long time and then I had interest
from the press in the UK every so often someone
would ring me and ask about Bramble because they'd
heard about it from somewhere. and people kept
saying you should write a book and eventually
a publisher in the UK asked me if I would write
a book for them so I wrote the book which is
why it's like it is it's kind of like in sections
which you can read in any order because they
wanted me to write a workbook but when i showed
them the draft they said oh no we can't publish
that because there's things in there that wouldn't
go well in the american markets i'd mentioned
at the time that i was a lesbian and they were
like oh you can't say that to the states i just
said well i'm not taking it out so we parted
companies and i thought right i'm going to have
to publish it myself and as you know i'm not
very technically um minded so um i wrote sets
And so I got some help with uploading it to Kindle
and so forth and formatting it from somebody
who didn't know what they were doing. And it
kind of went from there. That's an amazing story.
Yeah, it is available in Amazon. I will mention
it in the introduction, but please get the book.
You can access the book. I will leave a link
in the episode notes so you can get it there.
I haven't yet read the book, but I ordered the
book and I'm looking forward to reading it. Okay,
so when did the Guinness World Record, those
folks, when did they get interested in Bramble?
The Guinness Book of Records was a suggestion
from the Times. I think it was The Times, came
down to see Bramble and they said, why don't
you put her in the Guinness Book of Records?
But to be frank with you, I wasn't at all interested.
Because at that point, I wasn't thinking so much
about how that would be viewed, that people could
then say, oh look, she's the eldest dog, it's
been very frightening, all that. She was just
my family member, and we just fed her, we fed
her, and we just... just enjoyed our lives. So
I never did bother the Guinness Book of Records.
So people say she's been in the Guinness Book
of Records. No, she wasn't. We were asked if
we want to put it in, but at that point we weren't
bothered. Also, to be honest, if you look at
the history of the Guinness Book of Records,
the family behind it are, in my opinion, I'd
better be careful what I say, but put it this
way, not someone I'd necessarily be interested
in interacting with. People can do the research
themselves as to why that might be. Now I'm intrigued.
I just made my mind up that they weren't very
nice people. When I thought about it later on,
many years later, I thought, should I do that?
And I read some stuff about them and their families
and where it all came from. I just thought I
don't want to interact with these people. Well,
I will look it up. I'm intrigued now. Okay, what
I really like about what you've done in your
story is that if we accept that feeding a vegan
dog is healthier, that, you know, there is all
of this corruption with the food system around
dogs and also big pharma. We can, you know, at
some point we should be asking ourselves, Then
you know if if that is the case for my dog then
Why is it not the case for humans? Why is it
not the case for me? Maybe a vegan diet is also
better for me. Maybe the food system for human
food is is not the best and Maybe there is corruption
there, too so I like how you know and we come
to it from, um, you know, the, the, the point
of view, the, the angle of dogs, and then we
can get to, we can build a bridge to, um, you
know, humans and, um, our, you know, experience,
uh, with, with the food system. Do you agree
with that? Absolutely. And also cats, any commercial
food you're buying for a companion animal or
even your kids, if it's commercial food, it's
going to be, in my opinion, it's going to have
the same issues and problems with it. And people
also say, I haven't got time to cook. They say,
why is your life so precious and busy? You haven't
got time to look after yourself or the animals
in your care. So I hope people will kind of think
about that, look after yourself and your animals
and prioritize your health and do things for
yourself, rather than just outsourcing your health
to people who don't have your best interests
at heart. And it's really a low hanging fruit.
You know, in this podcast, I don't really get
into the health arguments. I don't know what
to make of, you know, cholesterol indicators
and levels of I don't know what, you know, I'm
not a nutritionist. You know, I get confused
about this whole world, but I think we can all
accept that cooking your food is better for your
health than getting it from, you know, big corporations.
Absolutely. And if you think, I mean, I'm 67
now. My grand used to cook. My mum did as well,
but my gran would cook stuff my gran had made
from the garden, bring it in, it's fresh, just
cook it from scratch, you know what's in it.
Basically, I don't see how you can do any better
than that. I think that the one of the weakest
side to veganism, so I'm a vegan for ethical
reasons. And when I look at consistency in the
way I live. I think that the weakest part of
it is how I feed my cat and how we feed our companion
animals in general, because we give them animal
products. And so what do you make of that? Because
I often hear people making arguments against
veganism and trying to find the inconsistencies,
but they always miss the biggest one, which is,
we're caring for animals and we're feeding them
animal products. So in a way we're still participating
in supporting animal exploitation. Yes, I mean,
vegan cats is a good case in points. When I started
feeding dogs vegan food, initially there was
no problem, but many years later people started
realising that they were thriving, that they
would be saying their natural carnivores shouldn't
feed them vegan. I think people are accepting
more now that actually they're scavengers and
you can feed them vegan. When you say about cats
to people, you could feed your cat vegan. people
tend to be outraged and say this is a natural
carnivore they need a higher amount of protein
in dogs which is true and so on and so forth
they need taurine so you know you have to say
to them you know again do your research what
what cats need is a high concentration of the
amino acids that are in protein a lot of people
don't really understand protein protein in inverted
commas is not a thing it's a combination as you
know of amino acids so the cat doesn't need this
thing called protein it needs these specific
amino acids in specific amounts so you can now
feed cats on plant -based food and but you know
you have to be careful with all animals and people
what you feed them because obviously they're
life -dependent on it But just think, if you're
feeding commercial rubbish all the time. I mean,
I've got a family member who's not vegan, who
feeds her packets of stuff. She buys the packets
because they're pretty color. And they say things
like salmon on the front. But if you took that
to the board, she analyzed it. I'm pretty sure
you'd find all kinds of nasty commercial stuff
in it. And drugs are not supposed to be there.
um industrial stuff and there might be a bit
of salmon in there or not somewhere um people
don't look at the opposite and and take this
filth basically they're feeding their animals
in their care and and analyze it but as soon
as you say you could feed your dog or your cat
vegan then you get you know a big rumpus so basically
even with cats you can feed cats vegan and there
is commercial vegan cat food out there um they
do need touring added. Dogs do not need touring
added in their food because dogs can make touring
in their bodies from other substances. Cats can't
do that so cats do need touring supplements but
dogs don't so you can feed a cat vegan. So I
think often this trouble is with anything as
you know if people have to change or they You're
thinking of trying to change someone's mindset
so that animals don't suffer from the animals
that we look after because obviously if you're
feeding a cat in your care, a dead cow, then
that's very inconsistent. The cows have to go
through a slaughter process for the cat in your
care because you're prioritizing the rights of
the cat and completely forgetting about the cow.
So obviously that's not consistent. And obviously,
we all do that all the time. If you drive on
a road, there are animal products that make the
things that roads are made up of. So some things
are easier to change, and some things are really
not easy to change. But with cats, you can do
that. But again, you've just got to do your research
and take the time to make the food and have the
confidence to do that. Again, there are a lot
of thriving vegan cats now, not many, many, many,
but many more than there were, I think. There
are vegan cats and dog groups on things like
Facebook. A random question. What do you make
of those words we use around animals? So I try
to... be careful about not saying pet, so I say
companion animal and I don't say I own them,
I say I care for them. But part of me thinks
why am I using my language that carefully? There
are animal rights activists out there, vegans
who made the argument that No, you should be
using pet. Use the language that most people
use. That's the case, for instance, for Matthew
Scully. He says using the word pet for my animals,
for the animals I care about does not make them
lesser than or it's not a marker of I'm not trying
to be offensive to them or something. doesn't
take away the love I have for them to call them
pets. And so what do you make of that? I think
language is crucial. Imagine if you had someone
that was working for you against their will,
like forced child labor and mining lithium or
something. And you said to that person, you're
a slave, but I really love you. And I really
care about you, but you are a slave. It doesn't
matter what I call you. I think if we put it
in relation to humans, we can see why that's
not a good idea. You know, if you have a partner,
say a male with a female partner, you know, you
could call her something offensive. It wouldn't
really matter because she knows you love her.
But I think it's really important. It educates
people. If you say my dog, well, it's not your
dog. Even companion animal is a funny one when
you think about it because no animal chooses
to come and live with you. You go and, you know,
people that don't care will go and buy them from
a breeder and people that do care will go and
buy them from, you know, acquire them from a
rescue. But you are going to pick out that animal
because of the way it looks or the way it behaves
or hopefully if you're a decent person because
it needs you to help him or her. So it's calling
it a companion animal. It kind of, it kind of
says this animal has chosen to come and live
with me and be my company and they come everywhere
with me and they do what I want to do when I
want to do it but all those things really miss
a huge power base of the control we have over
them and it's partly largely our fault but also
something we can't do that much about because
of the kind of urban situations we live in a
lot of time and the way the world is so you can't
really allow a dog to just when I was a younger
in the say the 60s people in the UK would just
put their dog outside the door and the dog would
stay out all day and do what it wanted to do
and go home again and you know there was less
chance of her or him getting run over these days
you can't do that but that was some little degree
of autonomy an animal might have but so now animals
have really no real autonomy and they have no
real agency when we decide that we're going to
control their whole lives. So calling them a
companion is a bit of a misnomer because they
didn't choose to be our company. We have brought
them into our homes. We lock them in. We take
them out when we want to take them out, feed
them when we want to feed them. Nothing is under
their control. And that's another thing I kind
of just put in my book a little bit trying to
get people to think of. how a animal's life is
structured from the animal's point of view. From,
you know, when they get up in the morning to
when they go to bed at night, everything is planned
for them, even if they're neglected or by somebody
or whatever. All that's done by human agency
on them that they have no choice. So kind of
calling them companion animals, I think they're
calling them pets. But in a way, calling them
pets is kind of saying it like it is, I guess,
because you're saying, you're there for my amusement
and you know because I want you here and probably
if you could manage on your own you'd wander
off and I wouldn't see you again that sort of
thing so I guess it depends if you want to be
polite and say a companion animal or just be
realistic and just you know you could really
if you thought about it just say actually this
is my captive because that's what they are they
they are your captive they are a captive animal
you know it's not like a dolphin in a tank in
as much as they've got tiny tanks and it's all
just vile for them but you know your cattle your
cattle dogs the cattle dog you look after has
no choice in where they are basically they probably
love you in the same way as people get Stockholm
syndrome when they're kind of kidnapped or stuff
like that after a while of living with someone
to kind of get used to when you're quite low
things you like about them and stuff like that
I wonder if so -called companion animals, do
they get a bit of Stockholm syndrome because
they rely on you for everything and in that they
have no choice. I recently tried to help a dog
that somebody has got so they're not treating
her very well and this guy really loves her in
a very calm way. He treats her like dirt. We've
been trying to get her removed but she still
will walk with him, or if he's sat outside, she
will go over to him. And this is kind of like
Stockholm syndrome. I think really, if we were
to use brutally factual language, we would have
to say something like the animals are captives,
however well meaning we are. I like that. I'm
more of a realistic, pragmatic person. So I think
I'm going to go back to using pets as a term.
Yeah, those are fascinating points. Do you think
that vegans make the best, you know, I was going
to say caretakers, but you know, captors for
animals because, you know, I rescued two, a couple
of birds. budgies. And I, you know, I don't keep
them in their cage. I let the cage open. Of course,
they fly in a safe environment, you know, there's
nothing that can harm them. I made sure of that.
And, you know, I was reflecting on the level
of care I provide for them and how much I think
about uh, their wellbeing. And I thought, do
I really trust someone who is not vegan to, to,
to care for, for those, uh, two birds? And, and
so I, I ask you the question, do you think there
is something about being vegan that makes you
the best potential candidate to rescue an animal?
I try and think of people as individuals, so
I guess you'll have vegans who've got a lot of
time and are very thoughtful. Other vegans might
be very busy and take on an animal to look after,
but maybe not quite have enough time that it
needs, albeit they mean well. I'm wary of lumping
people together because there are so many different
kinds of vegans. If you say as a base that a
vegan is somebody who has ethics of animal rights
in mind and kind of goes from there. That's a
good base level. And then of course you'll just
get millions of different kinds of vegans with
different ways of doing things. So I suppose
theoretically you might get somebody who wasn't
vegan that took their dog out for lots of walks
and had a whale of a time. And you might get
a vegan who cared about the ethics of looking
after their dog and didn't have much time and
maybe the dog didn't get out so much I guess
if there are actual vegans for animal rights
reasons then that's a very good start but I guess
you can't think of everybody in the same way
because they're all individuals Lastly Anne,
I wanted to bring up something that has been
on the news and getting lots of attention. Have
you heard about the dire wolves getting resuscitated?
Yes. And you've got to wonder why. I mean, from
the dire wolf's point of view, they've been born
in a laboratory. They will never be free to roam
because the scenario that they would have been
born in, you know, back in time is completely
different. I know even with, not even, but with
wolves that aren't dire wolves. I read a book
once about this woman who had some wolves that
she was looking after in a quite large compound,
but it just wasn't big enough for them. They
are wild animals. They don't want to be confined.
I think it's extraordinarily cruel really to
breed things like dire wolves into a laboratory
situation and even if they've got a bigish compound,
everything that they evolved to be and to do
and interact with is not here now and this is
just a very different world. I can't see from
their point of view how that's helpful. Also
the whole process, I'm not sure if this is how
it was done but I know you can clone dogs now
not just wolves and the whole cloning process
is fraught with ethical issues For each clone
that survives, maybe, you know, there are other
clones that didn't survive, that were born or
whatever. They then died because something had
gone wrong and this just seems so pointless and
to inflict suffering on people. I can't see that
the Dire Wolves will have much of a life. They'll
just be always this kind of like unique creatures
that's They're out of their time and out of the
environment they evolved to be in. I'm not really
sure that there are any upsides for the dire
wolves personally. I heard the story of how they
got the DNA for those dire wolves. They got them,
I think, from pups that were cadavers, of course.
And from, I think, the head of the mother of
those pups. And, you know, they were driven to
extinction by humans, obviously. And the last,
you know, specimens with, you know, viable DNA
in them were in the basement of a museum. And,
you know, to think there were pups like, and
their mother. just the head. You understand how
cruel people were to those dire wolves. Don't
you think that bringing them back is a form of
justice, I guess, a way to repair things, injustices
that were done in the past by humans? I think
if you applied it to humans, as said, We did
kill your great -great -great -grand, but we're
bringing back a clone of her. What would we think
differently about it? The individuals that were
killed are now dead, long gone. Nothing can ever
be justice for them because their one life was
taken from them. And that somebody in the future,
way in the future, looks a bit like them, has
got probably 95 % wolf DNA plus dire wolf DNA.
That ship is sold for those dogs. They're now
gone. They don't exist anymore. So I can't see
it personally, I can't see it like that. And
what do you make, I guess, of the whole concept
of bringing back species? Because that company
that brought back the dire wolves, they want
to bring back all the mammoths. And they've created
that mouse, that mammoth mouse. which has gotten
a lot of attention online. They say they won't
be selling specimens, but as of now, we don't
know in the future if they're going to start
selling mammoth mouse and things like that. What
do you make of that whole experiment? It just
sounds like an awful extension of the so -called
pet trade, doesn't it? It's just they've been
created for commercial reasons, presumably, and
down the line, they're hoping to do something
like that, no doubt, make money from it. So when
I'm on a rights point, I can't see any pluses
for the animals that would be born and then exploited
in that way. And what about the environmental
argument that, you know, bringing back dire wolves
and holy mammoths will benefit ecosystems? Well,
I think probably most of the ecosystems are vastly,
I'm not an expert on this, but just my opinion,
I think all the ecosystems that were there when
the dire wolves and the holy mammoths about are
disappeared. Where I live in the southwest, in
Bristol, I think it was Bristol Museum, there
was a woolly mammoth skeleton or something like
that at one point. And they, was it a big deer?
Anyway, this creature lived in that area. Well,
it's all built up now. They could never return
to the area where they had evolved initially.
So they would have to go somewhere else. I can't
see the point. I don't think that the ecosystems
would benefit from that. I know if you've got
wolves in a country, they are really vital to
the ecosystem. with a kind of waterfall of effects
or benefits for that ecosystem. But isn't it
better to care for the wildlife that live there
now? But a non -dier wolf wolf will do that if
she lives there already. Why go towards expense
breeding and oppression and exploitation, breeding
somebody in the laboratory to put them back somewhere
where the ecosystem has gone? And you could equally
do that with the native species that are there
now. Anyway, if we just left them alone, obviously,
wolves are highly persecuted for sports and by
farmers and stuff. Yeah, the whole thing sounds
like a very like the Frankenstein situation.
It's there's a sense that, you know, it's a horror
movie of some kind that we're watching. And the
first thing I thought about when that story broke
out was, what about hominids, other human species,
are they bringing them back to, or is this like
a line they would not cross? Yeah, it's fascinating.
That's a very good point because people will
probably turn off the podcast at this point but
again if people do their research they will see
that now there's an agenda with obviously you've
heard of transhumanism but I think we've gone
a step nearer that lately with the COVID vaccines
and with the ingredients in that in that jab
they're saying now and you know this is checkable
it's not conspiracy to check on the internet
that because of the stuff in the covid vaccine
and the dna because there's dna from fetuses
in there two fetal lines are in vaccinations
and there's other stuff like monkey dna dog dna
in the vaccines that people have had those vaccines
no longer qualify as humans they now qualify
as trans human But that means that the companies
or the companies that manufacture those vaccines
now own those people legally because those people
are not now classed as human, and therefore they
have no human rights. And that is checkable.
People can look that up. Yes, I think we're going
into a very weird future. Um, not dystopian,
but, um, something, um, yeah, weird is the best,
best I can think about. Um, like we need to now
get, uh, comfortable with the idea of weirdness.
Absolutely. And it's all planned out, I think
with longterm plans of people that run things
behind the scenes, if you like to call them that.
And I think we're all going to be getting digital
IDs, you're going to get blockchain stuff, all
this going on, and we're going to get much more
totalitarian societies globally. And this is
not a good future for humans or animals, really.
Yes. Well, I think, you know, as long as we have
free speech and platforms to discuss these things,
we have a chance to for a brighter future. In
the UK during the COVID thing, lots and lots
of things were censored on the net. So not sure
the UK if we do have much free speech anymore.
Yes, I mean, I have to agree with that. Canada
was the same. We don't really have much, you
know, not comparable to, you know, we don't have
free speech. laws and rights comparable to that
of the US. If the standard is the US, then yeah,
we're short of that, of course. And that also
includes the UK and most democracies out there.
Absolutely. So we're in trouble in a way. And
just briefly, other things for people to think
about. with dog -long cavity we're getting a
lot of um poisons put in the air now there's
a lot of uh i think they call it stratospheric
aerosol injection otherwise known as chemtrails
the u .s are now looking at that to stop it so
people think that they don't exist or they're
just conch shells but if they will again do the
research you can see there's lots of nasty things
being dropped on us i'm just looking at some
trail planes go past um and also electromagnetism
there's so many devices around computers handheld
devices 5g towers all this stuff i think this
will be affecting companion animals as well as
ourselves because you know you're having microwaves
if you live near a tower um so on and so forth
i won't go into all the gamut of it because it's
a kind of like a whole other subject but there's
lots of um things now that will cause problems
to animals and their longevity that when brambles
live that they didn't exist. So I think in the
UK, a lot of animals seem to be dying off at
quite a young age now. And that seems to be tied
to some things like these 5G towers and so forth.
But that's kind of nobody's actually researching
it. That's just kind of anecdotal evidence that
we hear through our website or people that we
know. Yeah, what is certain is that, you know,
people are now very distrustful of authorities
and experts and, and, and the kind. Yeah, not
like before. That that's for sure. And maybe
that's for the better. And maybe as as parting
words, I would love if you could maybe share
What was the reception from publishing your book
and getting it out there? How did people respond
to that book? in a very positive way. I haven't
had any negativity at all, none. As far as the
book goes, people do worry about feeding a vegan
sometimes, so there's that. But the actual book
itself got a lot of good reviews and it helped
start the vegan dog movement. There's a lady
called Butterfly's Cats who did some work on
documenting vegan dogs. I think she did something
like 100 vegan dogs. She put that out there.
And I bought my book out at a similar time. So
she mentioned Brown also when the book came out.
And Butterflies had done what she'd done. People
became aware that there were vegan dogs. We've
now got a website. I think it's called Vegan
Recipes for Dogs Plant -based. And there are
other vegan dog websites. So I think it's helped.
It's been one component of promoting a vegan
dog movement. So the reception has been overwhelmingly
positive. And for me, that's a good outcome.
Bram would have loved it if she'd been around,
and she understood that her existence had helped
people to realize you can feed plant -based.
then she would be happy to listen. Yes, it's
a beautiful thought. So Anne, before I stop the
recording, did you want to add something? Only
to people who don't be afraid of feeding vegan,
read up on it, give your dog good food, take
time to feed yourself and your dog properly,
look after yourselves and be aware there are
ongoing hazards for animals out there that may
not be immediate apparent like the chemtrails,
but they are having a massive effect on the flora
and fauna and that will include us and our companion
animals. And just to thank people for the positivity
and love we've got back over the years from talking
about brambor. We really appreciate it. Wonderful.
I'm looking forward to reading your book and
And I want to thank you for having taken the
time to come by and answer my questions. It's
really appreciated. Thank you so much, Anne.
Thank you, everyone, for listening. I kindly
invite you to share this podcast with the vegans
you know. Let's encourage more people to take
action. Again, thank you so much for caring,
and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.