WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.200 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan, 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.360 and if you are a dog lover, this episode is for 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:11.599 you. Because today we are talking about Brambles, 00:00:12.019 --> 00:00:17.440 a very special Border Collie who lived 175 years, 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:21.359 that is, dog years, making her one of the top 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:24.739 10 longest living dogs according to the Guinness 00:00:24.739 --> 00:00:28.660 World Records. And what makes this story even 00:00:28.660 --> 00:00:32.979 more special is that Brembles was vegan. In fact, 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:36.200 she is considered to be the very first vegan 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:41.039 dog in recorded history. As a treat for all of 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:45.719 us, I have today with me Brembles' mom Anne Heritage, 00:00:46.259 --> 00:00:49.539 who I consider to be a pioneer of the vegan movement. 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:54.640 Just think... how nowadays we have so many vegan 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:58.899 dog food brands and products readily available, 00:00:59.659 --> 00:01:03.259 and all of that originated with Anne and Brembo's 00:01:03.259 --> 00:01:07.920 story. In our time together, we discussed her 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.140 groundbreaking book, Brembo, The Dog Who Wanted 00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:14.859 to Live Forever, which I highly recommend. It 00:01:14.859 --> 00:01:18.739 is a short yet impactful read. Link to the book 00:01:18.739 --> 00:01:22.439 in the episode's notes. We also discussed the 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:26.519 resurrection of the dire wolves, your local veterinary 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.840 clinics being acquired by Mars, the chocolate 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:33.840 bar conglomerate, cooking for your animals and 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:39.180 much much more. You decided to feed your dog 00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:45.700 a vegan diet and is there any health advantage 00:01:45.700 --> 00:01:50.060 to doing so because I guess people who are listening 00:01:50.459 --> 00:01:56.239 are thinking, you know, my dog, I want to spend 00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.219 unlimited time with that dog. He's my best friend. 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:03.980 He's a member of the family. So they want the 00:02:03.980 --> 00:02:06.719 dog to be healthy. They want the dog to live 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.460 a long time. So what do you say to those people? 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.979 OK, so if you look at the longevity of vegan 00:02:12.979 --> 00:02:15.900 dogs, including my own, and the longevity of 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:19.340 dogs that stay on a carnivorous diet, especially 00:02:19.340 --> 00:02:21.759 if they're on a commercial diet and it's not 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:25.840 done by the carer, you see that vegan dogs do, 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.139 in fact, live longer. They are healthier. People 00:02:29.139 --> 00:02:32.240 who have their dogs on a carnivorous diet will 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.479 often say they get issues, especially skin issues, 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:38.849 chronic diseases, cancers. over a relatively 00:02:38.849 --> 00:02:41.389 short period of time, and you find with vegan 00:02:41.389 --> 00:02:44.530 dogs, if you've transitioned your dog from a 00:02:44.530 --> 00:02:47.169 carnivorous diet to a vegan diet, you'll find 00:02:47.169 --> 00:02:50.509 normally any skin issues will clear up, chronic 00:02:50.509 --> 00:02:52.990 health issues may vanish, like arthritis and 00:02:52.990 --> 00:02:57.689 so forth. My dogs did live very long lives. Bramble 00:02:57.689 --> 00:03:02.710 was 25, Floyd made 20, Luck made 20, and I had 00:03:02.710 --> 00:03:06.250 seven dogs. Two were killed by vets. The rest 00:03:06.250 --> 00:03:11.509 live to 19, 20, 25. So basically, in my own experience, 00:03:11.650 --> 00:03:14.569 they just live much longer, healthier lives if 00:03:14.569 --> 00:03:17.770 they're fed properly. You do have to take on 00:03:17.770 --> 00:03:21.370 the responsibility yourself of researching what 00:03:21.370 --> 00:03:23.810 vitamins and minerals, you know, nutrients they 00:03:23.810 --> 00:03:27.169 need. Dogs need about 67 vitamins and minerals 00:03:27.169 --> 00:03:31.810 every day. And you can do this easily yourself. 00:03:32.729 --> 00:03:35.610 All the food I Cooked for them was organic. A 00:03:35.610 --> 00:03:38.590 lot of it I grew myself. I grew all their veg 00:03:38.590 --> 00:03:42.050 and some of the fruits Obviously, it's more tricky 00:03:42.050 --> 00:03:44.870 to grow rice and stuff. So I had to buy organic 00:03:44.870 --> 00:03:49.729 rice and lentils and CVP But basically it's cheaper. 00:03:49.870 --> 00:03:52.870 They are healthier. They like the food Normally 00:03:52.870 --> 00:03:55.289 a dog that's been fed on some rubbish out of 00:03:55.289 --> 00:03:58.169 packets basically it's like feeding it junk food 00:03:58.169 --> 00:04:00.990 and When you actually cook them a proper meal, 00:04:01.150 --> 00:04:03.229 so you can see the difference in their enjoyment 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.479 So there's kind of multiple reasons to feed dogs 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:09.599 vegan and health would be at the top of the list. 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:14.419 What do you make of people's hesitation to feeding 00:04:14.419 --> 00:04:18.220 their dog a vegan diet because they assume that 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:21.699 dogs are carnivorous creatures, you know, and 00:04:21.699 --> 00:04:24.939 I guess they do because first of all, you look 00:04:24.939 --> 00:04:28.600 at the teeth and they have those long pointy 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:32.220 teeth. And so you think of them as carnivorous. 00:04:33.100 --> 00:04:36.339 I think it's lack of education. If anybody actually 00:04:36.339 --> 00:04:39.980 bothered to research it before they say that, 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.180 dogs are actually scavengers. They can eat meat. 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.120 They can eat plant -based. They can eat a mixture 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.860 of both. So dogs have evolved to eat what surrounds 00:04:49.860 --> 00:04:54.259 them. And dogs that are in natural surroundings 00:04:54.259 --> 00:04:58.779 will probably eat fruits and other little creatures 00:04:58.779 --> 00:05:04.480 they find. The healthiest diet for a dog is plant 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:10.019 -based and they just, they do enjoy it. So, you 00:05:10.019 --> 00:05:12.939 know, people may say, oh, it's unnatural, but 00:05:12.939 --> 00:05:16.360 then so are computers, TVs, cars, all the things 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.670 people use. So it's not really a good... yardstick 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:22.730 to use. I think one of the reasons people are 00:05:22.730 --> 00:05:25.410 hesitant to feed plant -based, it's not always 00:05:25.410 --> 00:05:27.970 that they don't trust the plant -based food but 00:05:27.970 --> 00:05:30.709 they don't trust themselves. I'm co -admin a 00:05:30.709 --> 00:05:34.670 dog food and dog health website and quite often 00:05:34.670 --> 00:05:36.850 we find people are saying it all sounds really 00:05:36.850 --> 00:05:40.689 good but I, they are too nervous to do it and 00:05:40.689 --> 00:05:43.930 I would say to those people do your research, 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:47.110 look at the nutrients the dog actually needs, 00:05:47.290 --> 00:05:50.319 find out what the nutrients are in and on our 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:54.259 websites we have a sort of master recipe which 00:05:54.259 --> 00:05:56.720 tells you all the nutrients they do need and 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.920 what those nutrients are in so once they've done 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.759 their research I would just say you know have 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:03.879 a leap of faith a bit of confidence and look 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:05.959 at all the vegan dogs out there that are thriving 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.959 there are many many out there now and just put 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:14.060 in put in the work source the food cook it properly 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:18.810 and just reassure yourself that you are good 00:06:18.810 --> 00:06:21.910 enough to do their food. Looking at it the other 00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:25.970 way round, what are you saying about your confidence 00:06:25.970 --> 00:06:27.970 in yourself or how much you care about your dog? 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:30.550 If you're just going into a shop buying some 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:33.750 rubbish in a packet or tin which has all its 00:06:33.750 --> 00:06:36.709 own problems, a lot of it has industrial chemicals 00:06:36.709 --> 00:06:39.329 in and you're just shoving this in your dog's 00:06:39.329 --> 00:06:43.209 mouth because you lack a bit of confidence. The 00:06:43.209 --> 00:06:49.879 other thing is It's my belief that dog food companies 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:54.120 and Big Pharma are kind of owned by the same 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:59.180 interests. So as with human health, people are 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:01.600 encouraged to feed themselves and animals in 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:04.060 their lives, kind of essentially what is junk 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:06.779 food. And then they will get ill and then they 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:09.139 will go to the vet or the doctor and Big Pharma 00:07:09.139 --> 00:07:12.839 steps in. So you're basically turning the dog 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:18.199 in your care. into a patient for vets to just 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.480 keep selling you drugs for the dog. And vets 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:23.680 aren't great at managing chronic conditions. 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:26.860 If something in the commercial food you're feeding 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:33.579 your dog makes it have skin problems, the best 00:07:33.579 --> 00:07:36.439 thing to do is take that muck out of the dog's 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:40.240 diet and feed her properly. And then you don't 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:43.420 need to shove. big pharma drugs down their throats. 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:46.819 Really, it's in people's hands. I just wish everyone 00:07:46.819 --> 00:07:50.620 would do a lot more research and then they can 00:07:50.620 --> 00:07:53.879 see for themselves why plant -based dog food 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:59.079 is better. It's a really interesting point. I 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.040 was about to ask you, if it is healthier to feed 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.920 your dog a vegan diet, then why are the big companies 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.899 out there not pushing that's not pushing vegan 00:08:11.899 --> 00:08:16.839 dog food and instead they are pushing the kind 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:21.180 of you know crap food you you mentioned. Yeah 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:24.899 they're producing crap food because they want 00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:28.199 your dog to be unwell for a long period of time 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.560 they don't want to kill your dog immediately 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.509 they want your dog to be a patient for all their 00:08:33.509 --> 00:08:35.990 life preferably and so they're going to feed 00:08:35.990 --> 00:08:38.389 stuff some of it will be stuff your dog can eat 00:08:38.389 --> 00:08:40.190 and other things they're putting like industrial 00:08:40.190 --> 00:08:43.629 chemicals will make your dog ill and I think 00:08:43.629 --> 00:08:46.409 people are frightened to say this and they think 00:08:46.409 --> 00:08:47.950 big farmers are going to come along and kill 00:08:47.950 --> 00:08:50.309 them and that may well happen because it's happened 00:08:50.309 --> 00:08:53.529 a lot with human health where people have spoken 00:08:53.529 --> 00:08:56.230 out they've ended up getting assassinated basically 00:08:56.230 --> 00:08:58.309 for speaking out so I think people are frightened 00:08:58.309 --> 00:09:00.950 to say anything about it but big farmers perspective 00:09:00.950 --> 00:09:03.960 and dog food perspective is the longer we keep 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:06.519 them old more drugs we're going to sell them 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:09.100 and you know anyone that's got a dog that goes 00:09:09.100 --> 00:09:11.879 to vets knows how expensive it can be when we 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.360 had dogs if you needed a call out for a dog and 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.120 had an accident or something like that you you 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:19.159 know you're paying 100 quid up front before you 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.340 even got to the consultation all the drugs you 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:25.960 know vets are expensive and expect to avoid them 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.340 where you can if you feed properly and exercise 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:31.980 properly and do all those other things dogs need 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:36.139 like keep stress to minimum then you know hopefully 00:09:36.139 --> 00:09:37.779 you will be able to swear by the bat and not 00:09:37.779 --> 00:09:41.179 go there because in my opinion it's just my opinion 00:09:41.179 --> 00:09:44.279 born out by my experience vets are not really 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:46.879 there to help your dog and there'll be vets that 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.799 think they're there to help your dog but if they're 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:52.419 selling drugs they're probably not ultimately 00:09:52.419 --> 00:09:55.320 doing anything helpful in the long run and all 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:59.279 these drugs have side effects and also few human 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.759 studies even or animal studies are done where 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:06.759 drugs or therefore people or dogs are looked 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:08.259 at in the way they interact with other drugs 00:10:08.259 --> 00:10:10.460 so if your dog is on three different drugs maybe 00:10:10.460 --> 00:10:12.679 it's got a problem with its heart and you know 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:14.779 some kind of inflammation something else how 00:10:14.779 --> 00:10:16.759 are these drugs interacting with each other nobody 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.179 bothers to do those studies and if they could 00:10:19.179 --> 00:10:21.200 be bothered they wouldn't because that's not 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:23.080 to their benefit they want your dog ill for a 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:26.590 long time. Before anyone dismisses what you're 00:10:26.590 --> 00:10:29.789 saying as, you know, conspiracy, you know, about 00:10:29.789 --> 00:10:36.610 those different industries, big pharma. I need 00:10:36.610 --> 00:10:40.389 to mention a story that happened recently here 00:10:40.389 --> 00:10:43.450 in Quebec, Canada, where I live. There has been 00:10:43.450 --> 00:10:48.409 an earthquake here. And for weeks, the big news 00:10:48.409 --> 00:10:54.629 was a report. coming from, I think, the Anti 00:10:54.629 --> 00:10:59.110 -Corruption Bureau of Canada about how there 00:10:59.110 --> 00:11:03.830 were those big conglomerates coming in in Quebec 00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:11.149 and just purchasing veterinarian clinics. And 00:11:11.149 --> 00:11:17.929 those big conglomerates are also the ones having 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:25.299 monopoly on dog food, cat food, basically pet 00:11:25.299 --> 00:11:33.139 food, and monopoly on pharmaceutical products 00:11:33.139 --> 00:11:39.200 in the veterinary world. And basically what was 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.080 exposed is the fact that our local veterinary 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:47.960 clinics were not owned by our, you know, local 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:51.500 veterinarian, they were owned by big conglomerates 00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:55.340 like Mars. And yes, I'm talking about the chocolate 00:11:55.340 --> 00:12:01.240 bar, who are big owners of, again, pet food, 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:07.019 too. And so Mars comes in, in Quebec, purchases 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:12.179 those local veterinarian clinics, makes the the 00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:18.590 veterinarian sign NDAs that Stop them from telling 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:22.649 their clients that they are now a subsidiary 00:12:22.649 --> 00:12:26.710 of Mars. They still keep that facade of being 00:12:26.710 --> 00:12:32.269 your local vet clinic. And they increase the 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:37.090 prices of veterinary drugs because you can't 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:46.220 get them anywhere else. It's a shocking it's 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:50.240 shocking because it's the life of some of the 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.080 Beings out there that we care about the most 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:57.980 Absolutely. It's exactly the same in the UK now 00:12:57.980 --> 00:13:00.100 all the vets as far as I'm aware nearly all the 00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:03.779 vets are Belonging to like you say conglomerates 00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:07.419 and they're US conglomerates So whatever wherever 00:13:07.419 --> 00:13:09.340 you go here, you're going to get kind of more 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:13.049 or less a uniform uh outfit in as much as they 00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:14.690 will be selling the same stuff from the same 00:13:14.690 --> 00:13:18.289 people um and just to mention also some of the 00:13:18.289 --> 00:13:20.710 dog food actually does kill the dogs out right 00:13:20.710 --> 00:13:23.149 i don't know if you looked up at sports mix i 00:13:23.149 --> 00:13:26.169 think it was called it had 75 dogs i think it 00:13:26.169 --> 00:13:29.590 was killed by eating sports mix so they'd probably 00:13:29.590 --> 00:13:34.750 put some kind of um industrial uh muck into this 00:13:34.750 --> 00:13:36.309 product maybe they put the wrong amount they 00:13:36.309 --> 00:13:38.070 wanted to keep them ill for a long time and it 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:41.190 killed them instead um This is what you're looking 00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:44.450 at. I think people, maybe they're a bit more 00:13:44.450 --> 00:13:46.789 used to looking at the connections between the 00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:49.149 human food chain and companies like Monsanto, 00:13:49.250 --> 00:13:53.929 because as you know, lots of brands of human 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:58.269 so -called food, junk food, ultimately are owned 00:13:58.269 --> 00:14:01.029 by things like Monsanto. So you're getting the 00:14:01.029 --> 00:14:02.590 same thing with dog food. You're getting the 00:14:02.590 --> 00:14:05.769 same at the top of the pyramid of finances. You've 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:08.789 got Monsanto and then all these products feeding 00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:12.039 into it. um are sort of subsidiaries of that 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:14.000 and it's very much like that with the dog food 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.360 market um people if people don't believe that 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.039 or they can just research it spend some time 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.019 looking at and you know tracing back the line 00:14:23.019 --> 00:14:25.600 of uh interest on it just follow the money as 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:30.460 they say you you mentioned how um you cooked 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:36.240 um food for for your uh dogs and you know if 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:41.120 i think about my family that's with the generation 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:45.600 of my grandparents would do for their dogs. But 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:49.100 I guess we lost that now. And we again, like 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:52.299 you mentioned, we don't feel confident to cook 00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:56.259 for them, like if it's not our place to do so. 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:01.100 So can you say a few words about how we should 00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:05.539 maybe regain that confidence and cook for our 00:15:05.539 --> 00:15:09.309 dogs? Yeah I think it's really good time now 00:15:09.309 --> 00:15:12.669 to do that for your dogs and for yourself because 00:15:12.669 --> 00:15:14.590 of the political climate which I won't go into 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:17.629 because it's a whole other long thing but I think 00:15:17.629 --> 00:15:20.269 people have to start using their own resources 00:15:20.269 --> 00:15:24.110 a lot more and I think the last generation of 00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:27.889 younger people for whatever reason. I mean in 00:15:27.889 --> 00:15:31.049 the UK education has been dumbed down a lot and 00:15:31.049 --> 00:15:33.529 people have not been taught and all because of 00:15:33.529 --> 00:15:36.769 the way families have gone. You've got families 00:15:36.769 --> 00:15:39.710 that are kind of being different than they were. 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:42.009 You used to have maybe like a family where granny 00:15:42.009 --> 00:15:44.190 lived in the house and grandad and the kids and 00:15:44.190 --> 00:15:45.950 everybody was in the same place and the families 00:15:45.950 --> 00:15:47.909 have moved into different patterns. You've kind 00:15:47.909 --> 00:15:51.639 of lost that. links so whereas you you know in 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:53.559 the old days you would have watched your granny 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.980 make something from a scratch or your grandad 00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:58.820 might have been digging the garden and you know 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:00.519 growing their own veg and people have lost those 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.039 skills I'd be you know the first person to recommend 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:05.879 people go and get an allotment or if they've 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:08.139 got some ground or even a you know even a balcony 00:16:08.139 --> 00:16:11.279 you can grow stuff just to grow your own food 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.039 as much as you can vegetables are just a simple 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.320 one and then you can feed your dog organic veg 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.600 from your own garden even you know benign stuff 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.659 like you if you're gonna go and buy organic veg 00:16:23.659 --> 00:16:26.240 that's had to come from somewhere it's hung around 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.120 on a shelf there's nothing like picking something 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.080 that you've grown yourself and taking it into 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.320 cook it in five minutes time because it's just 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.440 entirely different thing so I think people if 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:41.159 people involved themselves in the process of 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.000 producing their food more and also just maybe 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.320 If you don't cook, learn how to cook. And just, 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:51.860 I think it's really important to read things 00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:55.460 and do the research on the nutrients and then 00:16:55.460 --> 00:16:58.460 how to cook them. But with brambles food, it 00:16:58.460 --> 00:17:01.879 was always just really simple. I started off... 00:17:01.950 --> 00:17:04.589 As a teenager, I'd gone vegan myself, and I was 00:17:04.589 --> 00:17:07.250 quite skint when I was younger. And then I wanted 00:17:07.250 --> 00:17:10.029 to take on some rescue dogs. So I figured I'd 00:17:10.029 --> 00:17:13.089 looked at it all from a nutritional point of 00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:16.230 view. And there was this American nutritionist 00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:18.690 called Adele Davis. And unfortunately, she was 00:17:18.690 --> 00:17:21.390 a meat eater, and she did promote dairy. But 00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:24.049 she did have, aside from that, a lot of useful 00:17:24.049 --> 00:17:25.829 charts about what vitamins and minerals were 00:17:25.829 --> 00:17:28.710 in which foods and so forth. So I researched 00:17:28.710 --> 00:17:32.720 the work of Adele Davis and used um some of the 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.579 the values of the nutrients and put that into 00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:40.279 the the recipes i was making so i think if people 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:44.920 just give it a go um be confident and if you've 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.339 got older people around just ask them how they 00:17:47.339 --> 00:17:50.880 did things and bramble's dinner was really simple 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.420 so oh yeah the same thing we all had it out the 00:17:53.420 --> 00:17:56.240 same pan every night so it would be uh rice lentils 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.160 veg tvp um turmeric bit of mint stuff like that 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.920 and uh seeds put on after it was cooked, like 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.000 chia seeds and flax seeds for the essential oils 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.259 and basically it was that simple as just bring 00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:12.700 it to the boil, let it simmer for a while for 00:18:12.700 --> 00:18:14.359 you know all the vegetable juices to go into 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.240 the rice and stuff and that's basically what 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.839 they're most of the time. I used to make biscuits 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:21.779 from but they but other than that they'd get 00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:23.880 a few biscuits a day in case they were bored 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.720 but they just got one big meal a day and it's 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.859 so simple to prepare it just stick it all in 00:18:28.859 --> 00:18:32.769 a pan and let it simmer for a while. Obviously 00:18:32.769 --> 00:18:35.829 we use B12 as well in the form of yeast extracts 00:18:35.829 --> 00:18:38.210 because people often say well that would be vitamins 00:18:38.210 --> 00:18:41.130 or you can take care of that with yeast extracts. 00:18:41.230 --> 00:18:45.690 So it's really easy to cook vegan food for your 00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:51.109 dog. And an important question is do they like 00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:55.809 vegan food? Are they enjoying it? I think so. 00:18:55.970 --> 00:19:00.069 My dogs loved it. And on the website we have, 00:19:00.490 --> 00:19:03.289 somebody transitioned a dog a little while back 00:19:03.289 --> 00:19:06.690 and she sent us some photos of her dog. The dog's 00:19:06.690 --> 00:19:08.609 eyes were like almost popping out of its head 00:19:08.609 --> 00:19:12.769 and it's licking the plate and stuff. So a lot 00:19:12.769 --> 00:19:16.210 of dogs are being fed this crap. This comes out 00:19:16.210 --> 00:19:18.490 of a packet or tin, it's dry, stick a bit of 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:20.680 water on it. it's been hanging around in this 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:23.700 shelf for however long and imagine what it's 00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:26.619 like to be eating that all the time so then when 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:29.319 they get something that's you know the veg is 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.680 fresh the stuff's been cooked for them there 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.259 and then and they can smell it while it's cooking 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:36.220 and all that they love it I've never personally 00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:40.380 had a dog that didn't really like it and also 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:42.779 I've fed them once a day because I don't think 00:19:42.779 --> 00:19:44.720 you need to keep feeding dogs all day I'm not 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.680 sure it's great for their digestion so they would 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.180 have one big meal a day eat a big meal, then 00:19:50.180 --> 00:19:53.059 they would fall asleep. And, you know, that was 00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:56.160 it, they, they wouldn't be fed the next day until 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.799 their evening meal. So, you know, it works really 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:05.180 well. You remind me during COVID, when, you know, 00:20:05.259 --> 00:20:08.279 everything started shutting down, I was volunteering 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.259 for this organization, and trying to get them 00:20:12.259 --> 00:20:19.660 sponsorships from pet food companies. And You 00:20:19.660 --> 00:20:22.400 know, they would tell me, oh, now everything 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:27.299 is closing down, so we won't get our food from 00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:31.559 China. And that's when I realized that most, 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.859 you know, pet companies out there make their 00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:40.279 food in China, where the standards for, you know, 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.410 food control and quality control. are really 00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:48.049 sub, you know, substandards. They're really below 00:20:48.049 --> 00:20:53.130 what would be judged acceptable in the West. 00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:58.569 Yes, a lot of food that we use in the UK is not 00:20:58.569 --> 00:21:01.349 human, so -called human -grade food. And this 00:21:01.349 --> 00:21:05.069 is basically a lot of bits of dead animals. I 00:21:05.069 --> 00:21:06.950 mean, you've probably seen the films yourself 00:21:06.950 --> 00:21:11.849 where a load of meat that's from, you know, the 00:21:11.849 --> 00:21:13.670 processes which we couldn't put in the human 00:21:13.670 --> 00:21:16.890 food chain are put in with some other cereal 00:21:16.890 --> 00:21:21.549 filler and dye and you get this thing being extruded 00:21:21.549 --> 00:21:23.369 out of a machine and it's like this big horrible 00:21:23.369 --> 00:21:26.910 pink jelly thing and then they make it into some 00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:29.349 kind of shapes and stick it in a bag and call 00:21:29.349 --> 00:21:32.430 it dog food. It makes me speak just really, someone 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:34.809 would give their dog that, would you give that 00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:36.369 to your child? I've watched a lot of people do 00:21:36.369 --> 00:21:38.150 give that to their child, don't they? They give 00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:42.710 that sort of thing. come a long way, it's made 00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:45.750 from ingredients. And if you look at a dog food 00:21:45.750 --> 00:21:49.410 label, quite often it'll just say meat derivative 00:21:49.410 --> 00:21:52.690 cereal, ash, something like that. You don't even 00:21:52.690 --> 00:21:55.390 know, you don't know where the animal flesh has 00:21:55.390 --> 00:21:58.470 been sourced, how long the creature has been 00:21:58.470 --> 00:22:01.809 dead, the conditions she or he was killed in, 00:22:02.470 --> 00:22:06.670 all that stuff. You have no way of knowing what's 00:22:06.670 --> 00:22:09.210 in it. If you're doing it yourself, cooking yourself, 00:22:09.549 --> 00:22:12.630 you know exactly what's gone in it. Okay. I want 00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:16.069 to spend some time talking about, uh, Bramble. 00:22:16.490 --> 00:22:20.029 Uh, am I pronouncing his name right? She was 00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:26.150 a female. Yes. Bramble. So how did you, um, become 00:22:26.150 --> 00:22:30.029 the caretaker for, for Bramble? Um, how did, 00:22:30.069 --> 00:22:32.589 uh, you know, the love story with Bramble begin? 00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:36.349 Well, I had, I'd had no pets when I was younger, 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:38.150 no dogs when I was younger. My dad wouldn't let 00:22:38.150 --> 00:22:41.009 me have a dog. So as soon as I moved out of the 00:22:41.009 --> 00:22:43.210 house, I thought, OK, I'll take on a rescue dog. 00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:45.829 And the first dog I got was called Floyd, and 00:22:45.829 --> 00:22:48.150 she looked like she was 20. And Floyd was the 00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:51.269 absolute love of my life. And she was so easy 00:22:51.269 --> 00:22:54.509 to look after. I'd never looked after a dog before. 00:22:54.589 --> 00:22:56.769 I thought, wow, this is so easy. I'll take on 00:22:56.769 --> 00:22:58.470 another dog. I can easily take on another one. 00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.769 I got Bramble, and Bramble was a bit of a mischievous 00:23:01.769 --> 00:23:04.750 and stubborn character. And when I got her, I 00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:06.670 thought, wow, what have I let myself in for? 00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:12.049 I found her in Wales in a rescue. And the day 00:23:12.049 --> 00:23:15.690 after we had taken her home with us, there was 00:23:15.690 --> 00:23:17.529 some sort of flood. And all the dogs in the rescue 00:23:17.529 --> 00:23:23.190 had died. So she got out just in time. She was, 00:23:23.190 --> 00:23:26.769 I could say she was very smart, very stubborn. 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.259 And I think that's what helped her longevity. 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:31.019 She just didn't decide she wasn't going to die 00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:33.140 any time soon. She just wanted to be alive for 00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:37.740 a really long time. So I had Floyd and I had 00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:39.380 Bramble. They got on really well when they were 00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:43.799 younger. As they got a bit older, Bramble became 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:46.500 quite dominating and we ended up walking them 00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:49.119 both separately. They had quite a lot of walking 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.559 each day and there was myself and my friend who 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:54.720 were walking with them. So they were kept apart 00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:00.369 quite a lot. but she was great fun and she understood 00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:06.109 lots of things. I'd seen film when I got Freud 00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:11.170 initially of somebody who had taught a primate 00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:17.630 sign language and I knew it was possible to learn 00:24:17.630 --> 00:24:20.650 to communicate with animals in a way that people 00:24:20.650 --> 00:24:24.019 maybe don't normally. When I got Floyd and then 00:24:24.019 --> 00:24:27.259 later Bramble I spent a lot of time teaching 00:24:27.259 --> 00:24:32.140 them human language and also observing how they 00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:34.880 communicated so it wasn't just one way I wasn't 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:37.259 teaching them and not you know not listening 00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:39.400 to them I was kind of watching because obviously 00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:42.680 as you know with dogs most language is body language 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:46.400 so but I taught Floyd a lot of words just pick 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:50.769 up something say ball That sort of thing. And 00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:52.670 Freud was very, very smart and picked things 00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:56.609 up really quickly. And I learned to watch what 00:24:56.609 --> 00:24:58.230 she did. If she wanted something, she would go 00:24:58.230 --> 00:25:00.029 and stand by it and point her nose at it, that 00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:03.849 sort of stuff. These days, you've got this thing. 00:25:04.089 --> 00:25:06.029 I can't remember what it's called. There's some 00:25:06.029 --> 00:25:09.509 sort of mat with buttons on it. And people are 00:25:09.509 --> 00:25:12.789 teaching animals in their care to use this to 00:25:12.789 --> 00:25:17.700 communicate between themselves. the dog will 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:20.460 be trained how to use the buttons and then she 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:26.180 can say walk or went to dinner and things like 00:25:26.180 --> 00:25:30.900 this it's amazing so people can now teach their 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:34.480 dog how to use this stuff and have a conversation 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:40.079 but also you know people need to and probably 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.579 a lot of people do learn to understand dog behavior 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:49.299 um which is largely obviously not verbal um largely 00:25:49.299 --> 00:25:53.319 body language and also dogs exist in a kind of 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:55.940 different space than us in a way because their 00:25:55.940 --> 00:26:00.079 main predicate is olfactory they smell things 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:02.740 in a much more intense way than we do so whereas 00:26:02.740 --> 00:26:06.039 we if we're not blind we largely see things and 00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:08.180 obviously we've got audio and stuff but dogs 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:12.380 are all about smell so that's their experience 00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:17.619 of life so basically I I tried to build a base 00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:21.640 of communication between us that we so we could 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:24.579 work together if you like and understand each 00:26:24.579 --> 00:26:28.119 other and it worked pretty well really so you 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:32.119 know Bramble was great fun she could be a bit 00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:36.940 dominating we used to walk her separately from 00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:39.240 other dogs because she was always looking to 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:40.799 have a bundle and obviously this is not a good 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:46.910 idea so We would, we would walk her away from 00:26:46.910 --> 00:26:48.710 dogs normally, because just a way of looking 00:26:48.710 --> 00:26:50.609 at the dogs, they would cross the road sometimes. 00:26:51.609 --> 00:26:53.130 But this wasn't because she was vegan, because 00:26:53.130 --> 00:26:54.890 all my dogs are vegan, but only Bramble was a 00:26:54.890 --> 00:26:57.009 bit like that. So she was a proper character, 00:26:57.390 --> 00:26:59.210 really. I think that's the best way of describing 00:26:59.210 --> 00:27:05.480 it. You know, talking about the smells. Um, I 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:10.039 was recently interviewing, um, uh, a vegan couple 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:14.880 who made, uh, an art book about their dog called 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:19.480 rain art. And he's also, uh, uh, their dog. He's 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:25.960 also a border Collie. And I found it amazing 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:29.440 because they were talking about how they were 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.339 feeding the dog, uh, a vegan diet and how they 00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:37.289 were influenced by you. And by your book and 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:41.009 they mentioned Bramble and we had you know we 00:27:41.009 --> 00:27:44.849 exchange a few words about that. And one point 00:27:44.849 --> 00:27:49.589 they brought up was since they started feeding 00:27:49.589 --> 00:27:53.789 Reynard a vegan diet he started smelling better 00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:59.670 and I know that there's a you know. I guess for 00:27:59.670 --> 00:28:02.490 many people it's an obstacle. You know, dog smell 00:28:02.490 --> 00:28:07.849 is an obstacle to taking care of a dog. But have 00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:11.690 you noticed the impact of a vegan diet on the 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:17.250 smell of a dog? I can't say I have because my 00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:18.769 dogs were only ever vegan from the minute they 00:28:18.769 --> 00:28:20.549 came to house. They were just fed a vegan diet, 00:28:20.710 --> 00:28:22.890 so they never really smelled any different. But 00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:26.509 I take your point. I know when I started eating 00:28:26.509 --> 00:28:29.190 vegan diet, I found, I know this sounds strange, 00:28:29.289 --> 00:28:30.869 but I found that if I was out somewhere in the 00:28:30.869 --> 00:28:32.910 countryside, birds would come a lot closer than 00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:35.329 they used to come. And I like feeding birds, 00:28:35.869 --> 00:28:38.390 so I actually think, and you know if you eat 00:28:38.390 --> 00:28:40.210 garlic, you can kind of smell it through your 00:28:40.210 --> 00:28:44.089 pores and your sweat? I think if you're a carnivore, 00:28:44.609 --> 00:28:48.289 this does, you know, move through your tracks 00:28:48.289 --> 00:28:50.809 very slowly, and you do get that kind of pong 00:28:50.809 --> 00:28:57.700 of... I think animals pick these things up and 00:28:57.700 --> 00:29:01.220 I think it must be that, that basically you are 00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:03.559 what you eat and you smell like that's what you 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.519 eat. So probably that's the case with dogs that, 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.519 you know, they're just eating veg and grains 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:13.900 and there's not that horrible kind of smell of 00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:16.619 corpse going through their tracks basically. 00:29:18.370 --> 00:29:21.410 It's the first time I'm hearing that and I thought 00:29:21.410 --> 00:29:24.569 it was just in my head that you know animals 00:29:24.569 --> 00:29:27.930 change their behavior around me since I became 00:29:27.930 --> 00:29:32.190 vegan that you know, they're less I guess afraid 00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:37.769 or You know, they they're more, you know inclined 00:29:37.769 --> 00:29:41.569 to get closer and things like that. So I'm happy 00:29:41.569 --> 00:29:45.569 to witness, to see that there are other vegans 00:29:45.569 --> 00:29:49.930 out there who are experiencing that. Yeah, I 00:29:49.930 --> 00:29:52.470 think that's really the case. So you don't smell 00:29:52.470 --> 00:29:54.190 like a predator anymore when you're just eating 00:29:54.190 --> 00:29:57.170 vegetables and fruits and stuff. So I guess animals 00:29:57.170 --> 00:29:59.809 whose sense of smell is usually much more cute 00:29:59.809 --> 00:30:02.670 than ours, obviously smell this person is not 00:30:02.670 --> 00:30:10.190 a threat to me. So I mentioned how that vegan 00:30:10.190 --> 00:30:14.910 couple, Sol and Tom, were influenced by your 00:30:14.910 --> 00:30:19.890 book and by your story. So how did Bramble become 00:30:19.890 --> 00:30:24.109 a star? Well, I kind of never think of her as 00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:29.089 a star. She was a family member, obviously, and 00:30:29.089 --> 00:30:32.950 when she got really, really old, I thought... 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:35.200 the other dogs as well because I say Floyd lived 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:37.380 to 20 and the rest some got to 20 some got to 00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:42.400 19. I thought well you know this diet and regime 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.900 because it was kind of like it was like a care 00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:47.319 plan if you like all those things that came together 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:49.980 with the diet, the exercise, the stress reduction 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:53.339 strategies and so forth were really working and 00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:56.380 making me live a long time and then I had interest 00:30:56.380 --> 00:30:59.059 from the press in the UK every so often someone 00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:01.160 would ring me and ask about Bramble because they'd 00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:03.910 heard about it from somewhere. and people kept 00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:06.549 saying you should write a book and eventually 00:31:06.549 --> 00:31:10.069 a publisher in the UK asked me if I would write 00:31:10.069 --> 00:31:13.569 a book for them so I wrote the book which is 00:31:13.569 --> 00:31:16.769 why it's like it is it's kind of like in sections 00:31:16.769 --> 00:31:18.890 which you can read in any order because they 00:31:18.890 --> 00:31:22.609 wanted me to write a workbook but when i showed 00:31:22.609 --> 00:31:25.089 them the draft they said oh no we can't publish 00:31:25.089 --> 00:31:26.789 that because there's things in there that wouldn't 00:31:26.789 --> 00:31:29.170 go well in the american markets i'd mentioned 00:31:29.170 --> 00:31:31.970 at the time that i was a lesbian and they were 00:31:31.970 --> 00:31:34.430 like oh you can't say that to the states i just 00:31:34.430 --> 00:31:36.470 said well i'm not taking it out so we parted 00:31:36.470 --> 00:31:37.910 companies and i thought right i'm going to have 00:31:37.910 --> 00:31:40.690 to publish it myself and as you know i'm not 00:31:40.690 --> 00:31:45.410 very technically um minded so um i wrote sets 00:31:45.630 --> 00:31:49.410 And so I got some help with uploading it to Kindle 00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:52.250 and so forth and formatting it from somebody 00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:54.049 who didn't know what they were doing. And it 00:31:54.049 --> 00:31:58.470 kind of went from there. That's an amazing story. 00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:02.890 Yeah, it is available in Amazon. I will mention 00:32:02.890 --> 00:32:06.069 it in the introduction, but please get the book. 00:32:06.569 --> 00:32:09.430 You can access the book. I will leave a link 00:32:09.430 --> 00:32:12.970 in the episode notes so you can get it there. 00:32:14.970 --> 00:32:19.250 I haven't yet read the book, but I ordered the 00:32:19.250 --> 00:32:24.730 book and I'm looking forward to reading it. Okay, 00:32:24.930 --> 00:32:31.789 so when did the Guinness World Record, those 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:36.130 folks, when did they get interested in Bramble? 00:32:37.630 --> 00:32:40.089 The Guinness Book of Records was a suggestion 00:32:40.089 --> 00:32:43.559 from the Times. I think it was The Times, came 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.960 down to see Bramble and they said, why don't 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:47.539 you put her in the Guinness Book of Records? 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.099 But to be frank with you, I wasn't at all interested. 00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:52.579 Because at that point, I wasn't thinking so much 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:56.680 about how that would be viewed, that people could 00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:58.160 then say, oh look, she's the eldest dog, it's 00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:00.000 been very frightening, all that. She was just 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.940 my family member, and we just fed her, we fed 00:33:01.940 --> 00:33:04.150 her, and we just... just enjoyed our lives. So 00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:06.009 I never did bother the Guinness Book of Records. 00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:08.289 So people say she's been in the Guinness Book 00:33:08.289 --> 00:33:11.069 of Records. No, she wasn't. We were asked if 00:33:11.069 --> 00:33:12.710 we want to put it in, but at that point we weren't 00:33:12.710 --> 00:33:15.849 bothered. Also, to be honest, if you look at 00:33:15.849 --> 00:33:17.890 the history of the Guinness Book of Records, 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:20.990 the family behind it are, in my opinion, I'd 00:33:20.990 --> 00:33:22.829 better be careful what I say, but put it this 00:33:22.829 --> 00:33:26.309 way, not someone I'd necessarily be interested 00:33:26.309 --> 00:33:29.750 in interacting with. People can do the research 00:33:29.750 --> 00:33:34.460 themselves as to why that might be. Now I'm intrigued. 00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.759 I just made my mind up that they weren't very 00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:43.619 nice people. When I thought about it later on, 00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:45.359 many years later, I thought, should I do that? 00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:47.740 And I read some stuff about them and their families 00:33:47.740 --> 00:33:49.920 and where it all came from. I just thought I 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.619 don't want to interact with these people. Well, 00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:58.819 I will look it up. I'm intrigued now. Okay, what 00:33:58.819 --> 00:34:03.920 I really like about what you've done in your 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:09.659 story is that if we accept that feeding a vegan 00:34:09.659 --> 00:34:15.860 dog is healthier, that, you know, there is all 00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:20.920 of this corruption with the food system around 00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:28.300 dogs and also big pharma. We can, you know, at 00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:32.329 some point we should be asking ourselves, Then 00:34:32.329 --> 00:34:35.670 you know if if that is the case for my dog then 00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:39.690 Why is it not the case for humans? Why is it 00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:44.329 not the case for me? Maybe a vegan diet is also 00:34:44.329 --> 00:34:48.989 better for me. Maybe the food system for human 00:34:48.989 --> 00:34:54.170 food is is not the best and Maybe there is corruption 00:34:54.170 --> 00:35:01.539 there, too so I like how you know and we come 00:35:01.539 --> 00:35:05.719 to it from, um, you know, the, the, the point 00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:10.900 of view, the, the angle of dogs, and then we 00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:15.960 can get to, we can build a bridge to, um, you 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.860 know, humans and, um, our, you know, experience, 00:35:20.860 --> 00:35:25.119 uh, with, with the food system. Do you agree 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:30.269 with that? Absolutely. And also cats, any commercial 00:35:30.269 --> 00:35:32.530 food you're buying for a companion animal or 00:35:32.530 --> 00:35:35.070 even your kids, if it's commercial food, it's 00:35:35.070 --> 00:35:37.190 going to be, in my opinion, it's going to have 00:35:37.190 --> 00:35:40.230 the same issues and problems with it. And people 00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:42.309 also say, I haven't got time to cook. They say, 00:35:42.429 --> 00:35:45.309 why is your life so precious and busy? You haven't 00:35:45.309 --> 00:35:46.889 got time to look after yourself or the animals 00:35:46.889 --> 00:35:51.610 in your care. So I hope people will kind of think 00:35:51.610 --> 00:35:53.510 about that, look after yourself and your animals 00:35:53.510 --> 00:35:57.090 and prioritize your health and do things for 00:35:57.090 --> 00:35:59.750 yourself, rather than just outsourcing your health 00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:01.829 to people who don't have your best interests 00:36:01.829 --> 00:36:05.690 at heart. And it's really a low hanging fruit. 00:36:05.889 --> 00:36:08.489 You know, in this podcast, I don't really get 00:36:08.489 --> 00:36:13.570 into the health arguments. I don't know what 00:36:13.570 --> 00:36:16.769 to make of, you know, cholesterol indicators 00:36:16.769 --> 00:36:21.920 and levels of I don't know what, you know, I'm 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.960 not a nutritionist. You know, I get confused 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:29.199 about this whole world, but I think we can all 00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.539 accept that cooking your food is better for your 00:36:32.539 --> 00:36:37.719 health than getting it from, you know, big corporations. 00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:42.639 Absolutely. And if you think, I mean, I'm 67 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.710 now. My grand used to cook. My mum did as well, 00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:48.889 but my gran would cook stuff my gran had made 00:36:48.889 --> 00:36:52.329 from the garden, bring it in, it's fresh, just 00:36:52.329 --> 00:36:54.309 cook it from scratch, you know what's in it. 00:36:55.690 --> 00:36:57.550 Basically, I don't see how you can do any better 00:36:57.550 --> 00:37:03.610 than that. I think that the one of the weakest 00:37:03.610 --> 00:37:09.429 side to veganism, so I'm a vegan for ethical 00:37:09.429 --> 00:37:15.340 reasons. And when I look at consistency in the 00:37:15.340 --> 00:37:19.440 way I live. I think that the weakest part of 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:27.860 it is how I feed my cat and how we feed our companion 00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:33.019 animals in general, because we give them animal 00:37:33.019 --> 00:37:39.800 products. And so what do you make of that? Because 00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:45.599 I often hear people making arguments against 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:50.159 veganism and trying to find the inconsistencies, 00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:53.179 but they always miss the biggest one, which is, 00:37:53.179 --> 00:37:57.400 we're caring for animals and we're feeding them 00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.900 animal products. So in a way we're still participating 00:38:01.900 --> 00:38:08.159 in supporting animal exploitation. Yes, I mean, 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.300 vegan cats is a good case in points. When I started 00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:15.579 feeding dogs vegan food, initially there was 00:38:15.579 --> 00:38:17.619 no problem, but many years later people started 00:38:17.619 --> 00:38:19.539 realising that they were thriving, that they 00:38:19.539 --> 00:38:22.179 would be saying their natural carnivores shouldn't 00:38:22.179 --> 00:38:24.320 feed them vegan. I think people are accepting 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:26.320 more now that actually they're scavengers and 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.099 you can feed them vegan. When you say about cats 00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:32.219 to people, you could feed your cat vegan. people 00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:34.619 tend to be outraged and say this is a natural 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:36.980 carnivore they need a higher amount of protein 00:38:36.980 --> 00:38:39.440 in dogs which is true and so on and so forth 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.159 they need taurine so you know you have to say 00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:48.320 to them you know again do your research what 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:52.099 what cats need is a high concentration of the 00:38:52.099 --> 00:38:55.599 amino acids that are in protein a lot of people 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.300 don't really understand protein protein in inverted 00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:04.099 commas is not a thing it's a combination as you 00:39:04.099 --> 00:39:07.940 know of amino acids so the cat doesn't need this 00:39:07.940 --> 00:39:11.179 thing called protein it needs these specific 00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:15.260 amino acids in specific amounts so you can now 00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:20.460 feed cats on plant -based food and but you know 00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:23.360 you have to be careful with all animals and people 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.000 what you feed them because obviously they're 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:28.079 life -dependent on it But just think, if you're 00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.320 feeding commercial rubbish all the time. I mean, 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.099 I've got a family member who's not vegan, who 00:39:33.099 --> 00:39:36.239 feeds her packets of stuff. She buys the packets 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:39.219 because they're pretty color. And they say things 00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:42.159 like salmon on the front. But if you took that 00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:45.000 to the board, she analyzed it. I'm pretty sure 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.079 you'd find all kinds of nasty commercial stuff 00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:50.739 in it. And drugs are not supposed to be there. 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:54.000 um industrial stuff and there might be a bit 00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:56.880 of salmon in there or not somewhere um people 00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.920 don't look at the opposite and and take this 00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:02.019 filth basically they're feeding their animals 00:40:02.019 --> 00:40:05.239 in their care and and analyze it but as soon 00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.980 as you say you could feed your dog or your cat 00:40:07.980 --> 00:40:11.980 vegan then you get you know a big rumpus so basically 00:40:11.980 --> 00:40:16.019 even with cats you can feed cats vegan and there 00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:20.320 is commercial vegan cat food out there um they 00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:24.239 do need touring added. Dogs do not need touring 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.320 added in their food because dogs can make touring 00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:31.199 in their bodies from other substances. Cats can't 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:36.760 do that so cats do need touring supplements but 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:40.719 dogs don't so you can feed a cat vegan. So I 00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:43.780 think often this trouble is with anything as 00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:47.550 you know if people have to change or they You're 00:40:47.550 --> 00:40:49.329 thinking of trying to change someone's mindset 00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:53.349 so that animals don't suffer from the animals 00:40:53.349 --> 00:40:56.829 that we look after because obviously if you're 00:40:56.829 --> 00:41:01.469 feeding a cat in your care, a dead cow, then 00:41:01.469 --> 00:41:03.429 that's very inconsistent. The cows have to go 00:41:03.429 --> 00:41:06.150 through a slaughter process for the cat in your 00:41:06.150 --> 00:41:09.070 care because you're prioritizing the rights of 00:41:09.070 --> 00:41:11.869 the cat and completely forgetting about the cow. 00:41:12.449 --> 00:41:16.639 So obviously that's not consistent. And obviously, 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.739 we all do that all the time. If you drive on 00:41:18.739 --> 00:41:22.199 a road, there are animal products that make the 00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.280 things that roads are made up of. So some things 00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:26.139 are easier to change, and some things are really 00:41:26.139 --> 00:41:29.400 not easy to change. But with cats, you can do 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.840 that. But again, you've just got to do your research 00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:36.500 and take the time to make the food and have the 00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:39.400 confidence to do that. Again, there are a lot 00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:43.099 of thriving vegan cats now, not many, many, many, 00:41:43.179 --> 00:41:46.119 but many more than there were, I think. There 00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.159 are vegan cats and dog groups on things like 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:54.639 Facebook. A random question. What do you make 00:41:54.639 --> 00:42:03.199 of those words we use around animals? So I try 00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:09.650 to... be careful about not saying pet, so I say 00:42:09.650 --> 00:42:13.030 companion animal and I don't say I own them, 00:42:13.269 --> 00:42:20.269 I say I care for them. But part of me thinks 00:42:20.269 --> 00:42:28.730 why am I using my language that carefully? There 00:42:28.730 --> 00:42:31.929 are animal rights activists out there, vegans 00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:36.940 who made the argument that No, you should be 00:42:36.940 --> 00:42:41.820 using pet. Use the language that most people 00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:45.239 use. That's the case, for instance, for Matthew 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:50.000 Scully. He says using the word pet for my animals, 00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:55.519 for the animals I care about does not make them 00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:02.519 lesser than or it's not a marker of I'm not trying 00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:06.610 to be offensive to them or something. doesn't 00:43:06.610 --> 00:43:10.030 take away the love I have for them to call them 00:43:10.030 --> 00:43:15.650 pets. And so what do you make of that? I think 00:43:15.650 --> 00:43:19.969 language is crucial. Imagine if you had someone 00:43:19.969 --> 00:43:21.809 that was working for you against their will, 00:43:22.369 --> 00:43:24.550 like forced child labor and mining lithium or 00:43:24.550 --> 00:43:27.469 something. And you said to that person, you're 00:43:27.469 --> 00:43:29.909 a slave, but I really love you. And I really 00:43:29.909 --> 00:43:32.389 care about you, but you are a slave. It doesn't 00:43:32.389 --> 00:43:35.130 matter what I call you. I think if we put it 00:43:35.130 --> 00:43:37.610 in relation to humans, we can see why that's 00:43:37.610 --> 00:43:41.030 not a good idea. You know, if you have a partner, 00:43:41.230 --> 00:43:43.929 say a male with a female partner, you know, you 00:43:43.929 --> 00:43:45.690 could call her something offensive. It wouldn't 00:43:45.690 --> 00:43:48.190 really matter because she knows you love her. 00:43:48.550 --> 00:43:52.429 But I think it's really important. It educates 00:43:52.429 --> 00:43:56.250 people. If you say my dog, well, it's not your 00:43:56.250 --> 00:43:59.150 dog. Even companion animal is a funny one when 00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:02.340 you think about it because no animal chooses 00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:05.619 to come and live with you. You go and, you know, 00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:07.659 people that don't care will go and buy them from 00:44:07.659 --> 00:44:09.820 a breeder and people that do care will go and 00:44:09.820 --> 00:44:12.380 buy them from, you know, acquire them from a 00:44:12.380 --> 00:44:15.039 rescue. But you are going to pick out that animal 00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.019 because of the way it looks or the way it behaves 00:44:18.019 --> 00:44:20.579 or hopefully if you're a decent person because 00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:24.940 it needs you to help him or her. So it's calling 00:44:24.940 --> 00:44:28.159 it a companion animal. It kind of, it kind of 00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:30.590 says this animal has chosen to come and live 00:44:30.590 --> 00:44:33.309 with me and be my company and they come everywhere 00:44:33.309 --> 00:44:34.630 with me and they do what I want to do when I 00:44:34.630 --> 00:44:37.510 want to do it but all those things really miss 00:44:37.510 --> 00:44:41.409 a huge power base of the control we have over 00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:45.449 them and it's partly largely our fault but also 00:44:45.449 --> 00:44:48.849 something we can't do that much about because 00:44:48.849 --> 00:44:51.550 of the kind of urban situations we live in a 00:44:51.550 --> 00:44:54.849 lot of time and the way the world is so you can't 00:44:54.849 --> 00:44:59.010 really allow a dog to just when I was a younger 00:44:59.010 --> 00:45:03.230 in the say the 60s people in the UK would just 00:45:03.230 --> 00:45:05.469 put their dog outside the door and the dog would 00:45:05.469 --> 00:45:07.090 stay out all day and do what it wanted to do 00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:10.630 and go home again and you know there was less 00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:12.949 chance of her or him getting run over these days 00:45:12.949 --> 00:45:15.809 you can't do that but that was some little degree 00:45:15.809 --> 00:45:19.269 of autonomy an animal might have but so now animals 00:45:19.269 --> 00:45:22.090 have really no real autonomy and they have no 00:45:22.090 --> 00:45:27.309 real agency when we decide that we're going to 00:45:27.309 --> 00:45:30.610 control their whole lives. So calling them a 00:45:30.610 --> 00:45:32.429 companion is a bit of a misnomer because they 00:45:32.429 --> 00:45:34.909 didn't choose to be our company. We have brought 00:45:34.909 --> 00:45:38.389 them into our homes. We lock them in. We take 00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:40.949 them out when we want to take them out, feed 00:45:40.949 --> 00:45:42.869 them when we want to feed them. Nothing is under 00:45:42.869 --> 00:45:46.829 their control. And that's another thing I kind 00:45:46.829 --> 00:45:49.389 of just put in my book a little bit trying to 00:45:49.389 --> 00:45:53.679 get people to think of. how a animal's life is 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:56.880 structured from the animal's point of view. From, 00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:58.199 you know, when they get up in the morning to 00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:01.000 when they go to bed at night, everything is planned 00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:03.159 for them, even if they're neglected or by somebody 00:46:03.159 --> 00:46:06.119 or whatever. All that's done by human agency 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:08.840 on them that they have no choice. So kind of 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.860 calling them companion animals, I think they're 00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.360 calling them pets. But in a way, calling them 00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:16.639 pets is kind of saying it like it is, I guess, 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:20.260 because you're saying, you're there for my amusement 00:46:20.260 --> 00:46:24.400 and you know because I want you here and probably 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.380 if you could manage on your own you'd wander 00:46:26.380 --> 00:46:27.920 off and I wouldn't see you again that sort of 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:31.000 thing so I guess it depends if you want to be 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.900 polite and say a companion animal or just be 00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:36.599 realistic and just you know you could really 00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.159 if you thought about it just say actually this 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.860 is my captive because that's what they are they 00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:43.380 they are your captive they are a captive animal 00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:46.519 you know it's not like a dolphin in a tank in 00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:48.719 as much as they've got tiny tanks and it's all 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:52.219 just vile for them but you know your cattle your 00:46:52.219 --> 00:46:55.099 cattle dogs the cattle dog you look after has 00:46:55.099 --> 00:46:58.739 no choice in where they are basically they probably 00:46:58.739 --> 00:47:01.920 love you in the same way as people get Stockholm 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:04.619 syndrome when they're kind of kidnapped or stuff 00:47:04.619 --> 00:47:06.159 like that after a while of living with someone 00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:08.000 to kind of get used to when you're quite low 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.679 things you like about them and stuff like that 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.840 I wonder if so -called companion animals, do 00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:14.579 they get a bit of Stockholm syndrome because 00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:17.900 they rely on you for everything and in that they 00:47:17.900 --> 00:47:23.420 have no choice. I recently tried to help a dog 00:47:23.420 --> 00:47:26.079 that somebody has got so they're not treating 00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:29.219 her very well and this guy really loves her in 00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:31.639 a very calm way. He treats her like dirt. We've 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:35.429 been trying to get her removed but she still 00:47:35.429 --> 00:47:38.090 will walk with him, or if he's sat outside, she 00:47:38.090 --> 00:47:40.409 will go over to him. And this is kind of like 00:47:40.409 --> 00:47:42.789 Stockholm syndrome. I think really, if we were 00:47:42.789 --> 00:47:46.590 to use brutally factual language, we would have 00:47:46.590 --> 00:47:49.849 to say something like the animals are captives, 00:47:50.190 --> 00:47:55.949 however well meaning we are. I like that. I'm 00:47:55.949 --> 00:47:59.969 more of a realistic, pragmatic person. So I think 00:47:59.969 --> 00:48:06.500 I'm going to go back to using pets as a term. 00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:12.340 Yeah, those are fascinating points. Do you think 00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:20.360 that vegans make the best, you know, I was going 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:25.199 to say caretakers, but you know, captors for 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.199 animals because, you know, I rescued two, a couple 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:36.550 of birds. budgies. And I, you know, I don't keep 00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:41.869 them in their cage. I let the cage open. Of course, 00:48:41.969 --> 00:48:45.849 they fly in a safe environment, you know, there's 00:48:45.849 --> 00:48:51.349 nothing that can harm them. I made sure of that. 00:48:51.809 --> 00:48:54.409 And, you know, I was reflecting on the level 00:48:54.409 --> 00:48:57.449 of care I provide for them and how much I think 00:48:57.449 --> 00:49:01.820 about uh, their wellbeing. And I thought, do 00:49:01.820 --> 00:49:07.360 I really trust someone who is not vegan to, to, 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.539 to care for, for those, uh, two birds? And, and 00:49:11.539 --> 00:49:13.920 so I, I ask you the question, do you think there 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:18.480 is something about being vegan that makes you 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:21.900 the best potential candidate to rescue an animal? 00:49:22.789 --> 00:49:26.429 I try and think of people as individuals, so 00:49:26.429 --> 00:49:28.570 I guess you'll have vegans who've got a lot of 00:49:28.570 --> 00:49:31.110 time and are very thoughtful. Other vegans might 00:49:31.110 --> 00:49:34.750 be very busy and take on an animal to look after, 00:49:34.809 --> 00:49:36.969 but maybe not quite have enough time that it 00:49:36.969 --> 00:49:41.250 needs, albeit they mean well. I'm wary of lumping 00:49:41.250 --> 00:49:44.110 people together because there are so many different 00:49:44.110 --> 00:49:48.170 kinds of vegans. If you say as a base that a 00:49:48.170 --> 00:49:52.469 vegan is somebody who has ethics of animal rights 00:49:52.469 --> 00:49:55.389 in mind and kind of goes from there. That's a 00:49:55.389 --> 00:49:58.030 good base level. And then of course you'll just 00:49:58.030 --> 00:50:01.849 get millions of different kinds of vegans with 00:50:01.849 --> 00:50:05.289 different ways of doing things. So I suppose 00:50:05.289 --> 00:50:09.050 theoretically you might get somebody who wasn't 00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:12.329 vegan that took their dog out for lots of walks 00:50:12.329 --> 00:50:15.130 and had a whale of a time. And you might get 00:50:15.130 --> 00:50:18.559 a vegan who cared about the ethics of looking 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:19.900 after their dog and didn't have much time and 00:50:19.900 --> 00:50:23.599 maybe the dog didn't get out so much I guess 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:28.239 if there are actual vegans for animal rights 00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:34.599 reasons then that's a very good start but I guess 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:39.179 you can't think of everybody in the same way 00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:43.179 because they're all individuals Lastly Anne, 00:50:43.219 --> 00:50:46.800 I wanted to bring up something that has been 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:52.840 on the news and getting lots of attention. Have 00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:57.780 you heard about the dire wolves getting resuscitated? 00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:03.639 Yes. And you've got to wonder why. I mean, from 00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:05.860 the dire wolf's point of view, they've been born 00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:09.139 in a laboratory. They will never be free to roam 00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:13.420 because the scenario that they would have been 00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:16.900 born in, you know, back in time is completely 00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:21.400 different. I know even with, not even, but with 00:51:21.400 --> 00:51:24.420 wolves that aren't dire wolves. I read a book 00:51:24.420 --> 00:51:27.579 once about this woman who had some wolves that 00:51:27.579 --> 00:51:29.980 she was looking after in a quite large compound, 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.539 but it just wasn't big enough for them. They 00:51:32.539 --> 00:51:35.639 are wild animals. They don't want to be confined. 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:39.780 I think it's extraordinarily cruel really to 00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:44.340 breed things like dire wolves into a laboratory 00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:47.460 situation and even if they've got a bigish compound, 00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:53.260 everything that they evolved to be and to do 00:51:53.260 --> 00:51:56.199 and interact with is not here now and this is 00:51:56.199 --> 00:51:58.780 just a very different world. I can't see from 00:51:58.780 --> 00:52:02.940 their point of view how that's helpful. Also 00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:05.360 the whole process, I'm not sure if this is how 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.599 it was done but I know you can clone dogs now 00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:10.840 not just wolves and the whole cloning process 00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:15.769 is fraught with ethical issues For each clone 00:52:15.769 --> 00:52:19.210 that survives, maybe, you know, there are other 00:52:19.210 --> 00:52:22.369 clones that didn't survive, that were born or 00:52:22.369 --> 00:52:25.789 whatever. They then died because something had 00:52:25.789 --> 00:52:28.989 gone wrong and this just seems so pointless and 00:52:28.989 --> 00:52:32.050 to inflict suffering on people. I can't see that 00:52:32.050 --> 00:52:34.809 the Dire Wolves will have much of a life. They'll 00:52:34.809 --> 00:52:41.449 just be always this kind of like unique creatures 00:52:41.449 --> 00:52:45.940 that's They're out of their time and out of the 00:52:45.940 --> 00:52:50.280 environment they evolved to be in. I'm not really 00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.480 sure that there are any upsides for the dire 00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:57.780 wolves personally. I heard the story of how they 00:52:57.780 --> 00:53:03.219 got the DNA for those dire wolves. They got them, 00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:08.760 I think, from pups that were cadavers, of course. 00:53:09.260 --> 00:53:13.119 And from, I think, the head of the mother of 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.280 those pups. And, you know, they were driven to 00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:21.099 extinction by humans, obviously. And the last, 00:53:21.099 --> 00:53:24.340 you know, specimens with, you know, viable DNA 00:53:24.340 --> 00:53:30.960 in them were in the basement of a museum. And, 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:36.500 you know, to think there were pups like, and 00:53:36.500 --> 00:53:41.239 their mother. just the head. You understand how 00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:46.280 cruel people were to those dire wolves. Don't 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:49.800 you think that bringing them back is a form of 00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:59.039 justice, I guess, a way to repair things, injustices 00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:03.920 that were done in the past by humans? I think 00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:06.710 if you applied it to humans, as said, We did 00:54:06.710 --> 00:54:08.789 kill your great -great -great -grand, but we're 00:54:08.789 --> 00:54:11.949 bringing back a clone of her. What would we think 00:54:11.949 --> 00:54:15.449 differently about it? The individuals that were 00:54:15.449 --> 00:54:18.849 killed are now dead, long gone. Nothing can ever 00:54:18.849 --> 00:54:20.789 be justice for them because their one life was 00:54:20.789 --> 00:54:23.610 taken from them. And that somebody in the future, 00:54:23.710 --> 00:54:26.190 way in the future, looks a bit like them, has 00:54:26.190 --> 00:54:29.969 got probably 95 % wolf DNA plus dire wolf DNA. 00:54:32.030 --> 00:54:34.449 That ship is sold for those dogs. They're now 00:54:34.449 --> 00:54:38.530 gone. They don't exist anymore. So I can't see 00:54:38.530 --> 00:54:41.630 it personally, I can't see it like that. And 00:54:41.630 --> 00:54:44.050 what do you make, I guess, of the whole concept 00:54:44.050 --> 00:54:48.349 of bringing back species? Because that company 00:54:48.349 --> 00:54:52.809 that brought back the dire wolves, they want 00:54:52.809 --> 00:54:57.469 to bring back all the mammoths. And they've created 00:54:57.469 --> 00:55:04.329 that mouse, that mammoth mouse. which has gotten 00:55:04.329 --> 00:55:10.469 a lot of attention online. They say they won't 00:55:10.469 --> 00:55:17.409 be selling specimens, but as of now, we don't 00:55:17.409 --> 00:55:21.269 know in the future if they're going to start 00:55:21.269 --> 00:55:27.030 selling mammoth mouse and things like that. What 00:55:27.030 --> 00:55:30.909 do you make of that whole experiment? It just 00:55:30.909 --> 00:55:33.349 sounds like an awful extension of the so -called 00:55:33.349 --> 00:55:36.349 pet trade, doesn't it? It's just they've been 00:55:36.349 --> 00:55:40.110 created for commercial reasons, presumably, and 00:55:40.110 --> 00:55:41.789 down the line, they're hoping to do something 00:55:41.789 --> 00:55:44.389 like that, no doubt, make money from it. So when 00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:46.869 I'm on a rights point, I can't see any pluses 00:55:46.869 --> 00:55:51.630 for the animals that would be born and then exploited 00:55:51.630 --> 00:55:55.489 in that way. And what about the environmental 00:55:55.489 --> 00:55:59.789 argument that, you know, bringing back dire wolves 00:55:59.789 --> 00:56:06.309 and holy mammoths will benefit ecosystems? Well, 00:56:06.789 --> 00:56:09.769 I think probably most of the ecosystems are vastly, 00:56:09.849 --> 00:56:12.210 I'm not an expert on this, but just my opinion, 00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:15.449 I think all the ecosystems that were there when 00:56:15.449 --> 00:56:17.710 the dire wolves and the holy mammoths about are 00:56:17.710 --> 00:56:21.590 disappeared. Where I live in the southwest, in 00:56:21.590 --> 00:56:23.949 Bristol, I think it was Bristol Museum, there 00:56:23.949 --> 00:56:26.849 was a woolly mammoth skeleton or something like 00:56:26.849 --> 00:56:30.289 that at one point. And they, was it a big deer? 00:56:30.449 --> 00:56:32.590 Anyway, this creature lived in that area. Well, 00:56:32.590 --> 00:56:34.269 it's all built up now. They could never return 00:56:34.269 --> 00:56:37.349 to the area where they had evolved initially. 00:56:37.570 --> 00:56:41.010 So they would have to go somewhere else. I can't 00:56:41.010 --> 00:56:44.550 see the point. I don't think that the ecosystems 00:56:44.550 --> 00:56:48.650 would benefit from that. I know if you've got 00:56:48.650 --> 00:56:52.510 wolves in a country, they are really vital to 00:56:52.510 --> 00:56:57.170 the ecosystem. with a kind of waterfall of effects 00:56:57.170 --> 00:57:00.610 or benefits for that ecosystem. But isn't it 00:57:00.610 --> 00:57:03.510 better to care for the wildlife that live there 00:57:03.510 --> 00:57:09.190 now? But a non -dier wolf wolf will do that if 00:57:09.190 --> 00:57:12.349 she lives there already. Why go towards expense 00:57:12.349 --> 00:57:16.170 breeding and oppression and exploitation, breeding 00:57:16.170 --> 00:57:20.070 somebody in the laboratory to put them back somewhere 00:57:20.070 --> 00:57:23.670 where the ecosystem has gone? And you could equally 00:57:23.670 --> 00:57:25.570 do that with the native species that are there 00:57:25.570 --> 00:57:28.590 now. Anyway, if we just left them alone, obviously, 00:57:28.750 --> 00:57:33.469 wolves are highly persecuted for sports and by 00:57:33.469 --> 00:57:36.590 farmers and stuff. Yeah, the whole thing sounds 00:57:36.590 --> 00:57:41.889 like a very like the Frankenstein situation. 00:57:42.809 --> 00:57:46.809 It's there's a sense that, you know, it's a horror 00:57:46.809 --> 00:57:52.039 movie of some kind that we're watching. And the 00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:56.519 first thing I thought about when that story broke 00:57:56.519 --> 00:58:04.079 out was, what about hominids, other human species, 00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:09.000 are they bringing them back to, or is this like 00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:14.119 a line they would not cross? Yeah, it's fascinating. 00:58:15.820 --> 00:58:18.380 That's a very good point because people will 00:58:18.380 --> 00:58:22.610 probably turn off the podcast at this point but 00:58:22.610 --> 00:58:26.090 again if people do their research they will see 00:58:26.090 --> 00:58:30.809 that now there's an agenda with obviously you've 00:58:30.809 --> 00:58:33.510 heard of transhumanism but I think we've gone 00:58:33.510 --> 00:58:39.269 a step nearer that lately with the COVID vaccines 00:58:39.269 --> 00:58:44.730 and with the ingredients in that in that jab 00:58:44.730 --> 00:58:48.630 they're saying now and you know this is checkable 00:58:48.630 --> 00:58:50.880 it's not conspiracy to check on the internet 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.340 that because of the stuff in the covid vaccine 00:58:54.340 --> 00:58:59.199 and the dna because there's dna from fetuses 00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:02.619 in there two fetal lines are in vaccinations 00:59:02.619 --> 00:59:07.460 and there's other stuff like monkey dna dog dna 00:59:07.460 --> 00:59:11.079 in the vaccines that people have had those vaccines 00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:14.119 no longer qualify as humans they now qualify 00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:19.969 as trans human But that means that the companies 00:59:19.969 --> 00:59:23.630 or the companies that manufacture those vaccines 00:59:23.630 --> 00:59:28.329 now own those people legally because those people 00:59:28.329 --> 00:59:31.809 are not now classed as human, and therefore they 00:59:31.809 --> 00:59:34.829 have no human rights. And that is checkable. 00:59:34.889 --> 00:59:39.550 People can look that up. Yes, I think we're going 00:59:39.550 --> 00:59:47.760 into a very weird future. Um, not dystopian, 00:59:48.059 --> 00:59:53.000 but, um, something, um, yeah, weird is the best, 00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:59.699 best I can think about. Um, like we need to now 00:59:59.699 --> 01:00:05.380 get, uh, comfortable with the idea of weirdness. 01:00:06.460 --> 01:00:09.739 Absolutely. And it's all planned out, I think 01:00:09.739 --> 01:00:13.460 with longterm plans of people that run things 01:00:13.460 --> 01:00:15.960 behind the scenes, if you like to call them that. 01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:19.039 And I think we're all going to be getting digital 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:22.300 IDs, you're going to get blockchain stuff, all 01:00:22.300 --> 01:00:24.780 this going on, and we're going to get much more 01:00:24.780 --> 01:00:28.579 totalitarian societies globally. And this is 01:00:28.579 --> 01:00:31.480 not a good future for humans or animals, really. 01:00:33.019 --> 01:00:39.500 Yes. Well, I think, you know, as long as we have 01:00:39.500 --> 01:00:42.420 free speech and platforms to discuss these things, 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:49.119 we have a chance to for a brighter future. In 01:00:49.119 --> 01:00:53.619 the UK during the COVID thing, lots and lots 01:00:53.619 --> 01:00:55.980 of things were censored on the net. So not sure 01:00:55.980 --> 01:00:58.780 the UK if we do have much free speech anymore. 01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.940 Yes, I mean, I have to agree with that. Canada 01:01:03.940 --> 01:01:08.940 was the same. We don't really have much, you 01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:13.340 know, not comparable to, you know, we don't have 01:01:13.340 --> 01:01:17.460 free speech. laws and rights comparable to that 01:01:17.460 --> 01:01:24.980 of the US. If the standard is the US, then yeah, 01:01:24.980 --> 01:01:30.300 we're short of that, of course. And that also 01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:34.860 includes the UK and most democracies out there. 01:01:36.380 --> 01:01:39.840 Absolutely. So we're in trouble in a way. And 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:42.900 just briefly, other things for people to think 01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:45.880 about. with dog -long cavity we're getting a 01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:48.659 lot of um poisons put in the air now there's 01:01:48.659 --> 01:01:52.559 a lot of uh i think they call it stratospheric 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:55.059 aerosol injection otherwise known as chemtrails 01:01:55.059 --> 01:01:58.980 the u .s are now looking at that to stop it so 01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:01.099 people think that they don't exist or they're 01:02:01.099 --> 01:02:03.460 just conch shells but if they will again do the 01:02:03.460 --> 01:02:05.179 research you can see there's lots of nasty things 01:02:05.179 --> 01:02:07.840 being dropped on us i'm just looking at some 01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:12.469 trail planes go past um and also electromagnetism 01:02:12.469 --> 01:02:15.309 there's so many devices around computers handheld 01:02:15.309 --> 01:02:19.070 devices 5g towers all this stuff i think this 01:02:19.070 --> 01:02:21.530 will be affecting companion animals as well as 01:02:21.530 --> 01:02:25.469 ourselves because you know you're having microwaves 01:02:25.469 --> 01:02:29.489 if you live near a tower um so on and so forth 01:02:29.489 --> 01:02:32.070 i won't go into all the gamut of it because it's 01:02:32.070 --> 01:02:33.969 a kind of like a whole other subject but there's 01:02:33.969 --> 01:02:38.550 lots of um things now that will cause problems 01:02:38.550 --> 01:02:41.219 to animals and their longevity that when brambles 01:02:41.219 --> 01:02:44.719 live that they didn't exist. So I think in the 01:02:44.719 --> 01:02:47.300 UK, a lot of animals seem to be dying off at 01:02:47.300 --> 01:02:50.880 quite a young age now. And that seems to be tied 01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:55.480 to some things like these 5G towers and so forth. 01:02:56.860 --> 01:02:58.579 But that's kind of nobody's actually researching 01:02:58.579 --> 01:03:00.880 it. That's just kind of anecdotal evidence that 01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:03.619 we hear through our website or people that we 01:03:03.619 --> 01:03:08.610 know. Yeah, what is certain is that, you know, 01:03:08.670 --> 01:03:12.349 people are now very distrustful of authorities 01:03:12.349 --> 01:03:19.789 and experts and, and, and the kind. Yeah, not 01:03:19.789 --> 01:03:24.070 like before. That that's for sure. And maybe 01:03:24.070 --> 01:03:30.110 that's for the better. And maybe as as parting 01:03:30.110 --> 01:03:34.429 words, I would love if you could maybe share 01:03:35.099 --> 01:03:41.119 What was the reception from publishing your book 01:03:41.119 --> 01:03:48.260 and getting it out there? How did people respond 01:03:48.260 --> 01:03:52.710 to that book? in a very positive way. I haven't 01:03:52.710 --> 01:03:56.110 had any negativity at all, none. As far as the 01:03:56.110 --> 01:03:58.170 book goes, people do worry about feeding a vegan 01:03:58.170 --> 01:04:00.750 sometimes, so there's that. But the actual book 01:04:00.750 --> 01:04:05.809 itself got a lot of good reviews and it helped 01:04:05.809 --> 01:04:08.070 start the vegan dog movement. There's a lady 01:04:08.070 --> 01:04:12.809 called Butterfly's Cats who did some work on 01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:16.780 documenting vegan dogs. I think she did something 01:04:16.780 --> 01:04:19.380 like 100 vegan dogs. She put that out there. 01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:22.900 And I bought my book out at a similar time. So 01:04:22.900 --> 01:04:26.159 she mentioned Brown also when the book came out. 01:04:27.460 --> 01:04:30.219 And Butterflies had done what she'd done. People 01:04:30.219 --> 01:04:33.860 became aware that there were vegan dogs. We've 01:04:33.860 --> 01:04:37.360 now got a website. I think it's called Vegan 01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:41.880 Recipes for Dogs Plant -based. And there are 01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:46.409 other vegan dog websites. So I think it's helped. 01:04:46.949 --> 01:04:50.289 It's been one component of promoting a vegan 01:04:50.289 --> 01:04:53.909 dog movement. So the reception has been overwhelmingly 01:04:53.909 --> 01:05:01.889 positive. And for me, that's a good outcome. 01:05:02.650 --> 01:05:05.809 Bram would have loved it if she'd been around, 01:05:05.909 --> 01:05:09.510 and she understood that her existence had helped 01:05:09.510 --> 01:05:12.769 people to realize you can feed plant -based. 01:05:13.130 --> 01:05:16.710 then she would be happy to listen. Yes, it's 01:05:16.710 --> 01:05:20.469 a beautiful thought. So Anne, before I stop the 01:05:20.469 --> 01:05:24.309 recording, did you want to add something? Only 01:05:24.309 --> 01:05:26.949 to people who don't be afraid of feeding vegan, 01:05:27.670 --> 01:05:30.070 read up on it, give your dog good food, take 01:05:30.070 --> 01:05:32.010 time to feed yourself and your dog properly, 01:05:32.730 --> 01:05:36.309 look after yourselves and be aware there are 01:05:36.309 --> 01:05:40.590 ongoing hazards for animals out there that may 01:05:40.590 --> 01:05:43.119 not be immediate apparent like the chemtrails, 01:05:43.179 --> 01:05:45.639 but they are having a massive effect on the flora 01:05:45.639 --> 01:05:50.300 and fauna and that will include us and our companion 01:05:50.300 --> 01:05:55.019 animals. And just to thank people for the positivity 01:05:55.019 --> 01:05:58.300 and love we've got back over the years from talking 01:05:58.300 --> 01:06:01.400 about brambor. We really appreciate it. Wonderful. 01:06:01.940 --> 01:06:04.480 I'm looking forward to reading your book and 01:06:04.940 --> 01:06:08.760 And I want to thank you for having taken the 01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:14.059 time to come by and answer my questions. It's 01:06:14.059 --> 01:06:16.039 really appreciated. Thank you so much, Anne. 01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:19.500 Thank you, everyone, for listening. I kindly 01:06:19.500 --> 01:06:22.199 invite you to share this podcast with the vegans 01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:25.519 you know. Let's encourage more people to take 01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:28.659 action. Again, thank you so much for caring, 01:06:28.659 --> 01:06:32.179 and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.