WEBVTT

00:00:01.740 --> 00:00:04.580
Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan.

00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:09.820
This episode is a reminder of why we want others

00:00:09.820 --> 00:00:14.179
to become vegan. Not just because we care about

00:00:14.179 --> 00:00:18.699
animals, but also because being vegan is amazing.

00:00:18.899 --> 00:00:22.379
And we want to share this beautiful life experience

00:00:22.379 --> 00:00:26.440
with the rest of the world. And to discuss this

00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:29.719
topic... I have with me Dr. Angela Crawford,

00:00:29.859 --> 00:00:33.299
a psychologist who wrote an entire book dedicated

00:00:33.299 --> 00:00:36.439
to this issue called The Vegan Transformation,

00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:39.759
which explores the impact of a vegan lifestyle

00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:44.520
on our emotional, mental and spiritual well -being.

00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.039
Among other things, we discussed if there was

00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:52.439
a right or wrong way of being vegan, Jordan Peterson

00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:55.899
and the question of meaning. why vegans can be

00:00:55.899 --> 00:01:00.100
harsher with fellow vegans than carnists, how

00:01:00.100 --> 00:01:03.880
veganism is a religion, the resilience of vegans,

00:01:03.899 --> 00:01:08.579
and much, much more. Get the book now. Link in

00:01:08.579 --> 00:01:12.280
the episode's notes. And for more thought -provoking

00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.719
conversations, support this podcast by sharing

00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:20.900
it with your fellow vegan. I was thinking of

00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:23.680
the last episode I released with Bhante Satie.

00:01:24.019 --> 00:01:28.260
And the whole intro of that episode, the whole

00:01:28.260 --> 00:01:33.599
premise was that being vegan is hard. And lots

00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:38.140
of people struggle to stay vegan. That's why

00:01:38.140 --> 00:01:42.340
we get some studies from Phonolitics talking

00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:46.680
about how there's a big relapse rate in the vegan

00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:51.400
community. And when I, you know, received your

00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.620
book, I was a bit skeptical at first. But then

00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:58.840
I remembered, well, you are a 10 years vegan.

00:01:58.939 --> 00:02:03.500
There must be some benefits in being vegan that,

00:02:03.500 --> 00:02:08.159
you know, made you stay vegan for all these years.

00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.340
Yeah, what do you make of that, of those two,

00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:19.560
you know, opposite? that tension between is veganism

00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:24.000
you know a struggle or is veganism you know something

00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.400
beneficial that adds enrichment to your life

00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:31.000
yeah i'm sure there's probably a lot of complexity

00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:34.960
to how i can respond to that because i i you

00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:36.639
know first want to acknowledge that different

00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.780
vegans are going to have different experiences

00:02:38.780 --> 00:02:42.639
just you know even though we're a smaller group

00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:47.770
than those who are not vegan. It's still a wide,

00:02:47.849 --> 00:02:50.210
expansive group of people that are vegan for

00:02:50.210 --> 00:02:53.370
a variety, you know, a variety of things have

00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:56.370
led us on this path. So first, just acknowledge

00:02:56.370 --> 00:02:58.870
that we can be vegan and have very different

00:02:58.870 --> 00:03:03.849
experiences. But what led me to look into the

00:03:03.849 --> 00:03:07.669
idea, you know, I'd certainly heard and seen

00:03:07.669 --> 00:03:12.270
how veganism can be challenging. one, we're a

00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:15.129
minority. And so whenever you're living a different

00:03:15.129 --> 00:03:17.849
lifestyle than those around you, that can lead

00:03:17.849 --> 00:03:21.150
to challenges. And that's part of what you're

00:03:21.150 --> 00:03:24.289
referring to with some of the research that some

00:03:24.289 --> 00:03:26.310
of the research finds that the biggest reason

00:03:26.310 --> 00:03:29.069
people don't stay vegan is for social reasons

00:03:29.069 --> 00:03:32.210
that hold being different or being the one that

00:03:32.210 --> 00:03:35.750
stands out or having to handle social situations,

00:03:35.789 --> 00:03:38.009
which invariably involve animal products that

00:03:38.009 --> 00:03:40.770
just some people find that very challenging to

00:03:40.770 --> 00:03:44.530
navigate and and go back to what's familiar and

00:03:44.530 --> 00:03:48.949
comfortable and societally you know the majority

00:03:48.949 --> 00:03:52.830
of people are are doing there's also other aspects

00:03:52.830 --> 00:03:54.930
that are challenging that you know the emotional

00:03:54.930 --> 00:03:57.689
aspects especially for those that are very strong

00:03:57.689 --> 00:04:00.610
ethical vegans and or activists feel when they

00:04:00.610 --> 00:04:03.669
understand what happens to animals and in so

00:04:03.669 --> 00:04:05.370
many different industries and then they don't

00:04:05.370 --> 00:04:08.789
see people around them seeming to care So those

00:04:08.789 --> 00:04:12.289
are definite challenges. And I, you know, address

00:04:12.289 --> 00:04:15.750
those in the book, too. But I felt there hadn't

00:04:15.750 --> 00:04:19.329
been enough attention to the benefits. And I

00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:21.209
certainly experienced them. And maybe being a

00:04:21.209 --> 00:04:23.529
newer vegan, it might be different for me than

00:04:23.529 --> 00:04:25.470
someone who's been vegan for a really long time.

00:04:26.810 --> 00:04:29.949
But I met different people through when I became,

00:04:30.069 --> 00:04:34.040
when I shifted from vegetarian to vegan. I had

00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:36.699
a lot of inner shifts inside of me that something

00:04:36.699 --> 00:04:41.720
opened up. Even though vegetarian was a big step

00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:43.420
for me because I did it for ethical reasons,

00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:47.779
when I became vegan, I had to stand up in social

00:04:47.779 --> 00:04:50.399
situations in a way that I hadn't fully had to

00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.399
experience as a vegetarian was more acceptable,

00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.800
I guess. And so suddenly now I'm having to verbalize

00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:58.800
why am I making this shift to vegan that people

00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.980
had a harder time understanding. I felt truer

00:05:02.980 --> 00:05:07.839
to myself. I came out of being very, very introverted

00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:10.680
and private to having a website and writing a

00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:14.459
blog and wanting to share this. Something shifted

00:05:14.459 --> 00:05:16.319
where I realized it was more than a personal

00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:18.500
lifestyle choice for me, but something that affected

00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:22.459
everything I cared about. Certainly the animals,

00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:24.980
especially as I really connected more fully with

00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:29.649
how... So many industries are harmful and exploitive

00:05:29.649 --> 00:05:34.709
and cause suffering to animals. But I also realized

00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:38.129
it was connected to the planet. As a psychologist,

00:05:38.410 --> 00:05:40.209
I'd helped a lot of people with health issues

00:05:40.209 --> 00:05:42.410
over the years. I saw how it was connected to

00:05:42.410 --> 00:05:45.250
our health crisis. I just saw all these things

00:05:45.250 --> 00:05:47.629
really actually were very interconnected, and

00:05:47.629 --> 00:05:51.660
it felt like I couldn't just... keep it to myself

00:05:51.660 --> 00:05:53.180
that it was part of my mission to share it in

00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:54.740
some way and so I wanted to bring my background

00:05:54.740 --> 00:05:57.339
in psychology and so my interest was more how

00:05:57.339 --> 00:06:00.620
does this affect us psychologically in a positive

00:06:00.620 --> 00:06:02.540
way and I knew it had been positive for me being

00:06:02.540 --> 00:06:05.319
more true to myself finding an even deeper sense

00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:09.220
of purpose feeling a weight lifted that I was

00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:11.699
aligned with my values more fully that I hadn't

00:06:11.699 --> 00:06:14.660
even known there was a weight. So as I met different

00:06:14.660 --> 00:06:16.579
vegans around the globe, because I was in different

00:06:16.579 --> 00:06:18.879
vegan networking groups and, you know, you feel

00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:21.000
this bond with people that you've never met before

00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:26.939
over this shared experience. And, you know, as

00:06:26.939 --> 00:06:30.560
I met people and they had the same feelings and

00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.459
some of them had, had transformed their lives

00:06:33.459 --> 00:06:36.540
in different ways. I was in. just really surprised

00:06:36.540 --> 00:06:39.899
on LinkedIn, for example, how many vegans have

00:06:39.899 --> 00:06:42.579
businesses, you know, have created, you know,

00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:44.920
some sort of business to spread the message and

00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.639
share vegan products or share vegan services.

00:06:48.660 --> 00:06:52.000
So that just led to my interest in studying this

00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.980
more. So I think that both can exist. And what

00:06:55.980 --> 00:06:58.000
makes the difference can be a lot of things.

00:06:58.100 --> 00:07:01.100
I think how much support someone has as a, you

00:07:01.100 --> 00:07:04.129
know, as a vegan, do they have? both good vegan

00:07:04.129 --> 00:07:06.529
supports in their life, as well as a way to navigate

00:07:06.529 --> 00:07:08.949
relationships with the non -vegans in their life

00:07:08.949 --> 00:07:13.930
or the pre -vegans in their life. And, you know,

00:07:14.029 --> 00:07:16.990
it is, I don't know, I know there's been up and

00:07:16.990 --> 00:07:19.910
down as far as how societally accepted veganism

00:07:19.910 --> 00:07:21.930
is. It seemed like it was moving to a lot more

00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:24.089
acceptance. And then I hear lately that there's

00:07:24.089 --> 00:07:27.610
more negativity about it. So there's ups and

00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:29.430
downs there, but it is still probably much more

00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:31.930
accepted than it was for vegans that became vegan

00:07:31.930 --> 00:07:35.670
30 or more years ago. So I think there's a lot

00:07:35.670 --> 00:07:38.189
of factors that play into how we experience it.

00:07:39.629 --> 00:07:42.750
So I think it's complex, but I think both can

00:07:42.750 --> 00:07:46.490
exist, that it can be a life -changing, positive

00:07:46.490 --> 00:07:49.170
experience that I want to invite people into.

00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:51.670
And yet there can be challenges, and I would

00:07:51.670 --> 00:07:56.100
not minimize that they're there. Reference your

00:07:56.100 --> 00:08:01.959
own journey to veganism. And that is a question

00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:07.560
that comes back again and again. What makes someone

00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:15.100
adopt a vegan lifestyle? I was at the AVA summit

00:08:15.100 --> 00:08:20.939
last weekend. That's why I was late in releasing

00:08:20.939 --> 00:08:25.639
episodes on my podcast. I had to prioritize that.

00:08:26.180 --> 00:08:29.319
And at that event, there was an interesting meetup

00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:35.940
about neurodiversity. And there, one of the persons

00:08:35.940 --> 00:08:39.419
present in the meetup said, you know what, I

00:08:39.419 --> 00:08:42.539
will say it, 70 % of people in this movement

00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:46.840
are neurodiverse. And that made me think, well

00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.289
then, Do we become vegan because we are destined

00:08:50.289 --> 00:08:54.110
to be, because there are some quality to us that

00:08:54.110 --> 00:08:58.889
made us attracted to this? Or is it more of a,

00:08:59.009 --> 00:09:02.970
you know, you learn about ethics and all of that,

00:09:03.070 --> 00:09:07.490
and you shape yourself into a vegan through your

00:09:07.490 --> 00:09:11.389
life journey? What do you make of that question?

00:09:12.149 --> 00:09:15.970
Yeah, it's so interesting. I don't, you know,

00:09:16.009 --> 00:09:18.899
I don't think there's any, hard science to to

00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:23.100
answer it so it'd just be reflections or thoughts

00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:29.820
that i might have i do feel that the forerunners

00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:33.960
of any kind of social justice movement may have

00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:35.799
things that make them different being willing

00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.720
to step out of what is considered normal or considered

00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:47.200
okay by society and with this movement I do remember

00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.940
there being some studies with people who were

00:09:49.940 --> 00:09:52.259
vegans and omnivores looking at their brains

00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:54.639
when they witnessed animal suffering and seeing

00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:57.639
that vegans showed more empathy and certain parts

00:09:57.639 --> 00:09:59.740
of the brain that measured empathy registered

00:09:59.740 --> 00:10:04.240
more than omnivores did in seeing certain images.

00:10:04.340 --> 00:10:06.379
So did that come before or after? I don't think

00:10:06.379 --> 00:10:10.379
those studies can answer that. But my sense would

00:10:10.379 --> 00:10:13.450
be that... A lot of people that do become vegan

00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:17.250
before it's quote unquote the norm, which is

00:10:17.250 --> 00:10:20.590
where we're still at, unfortunately, there must

00:10:20.590 --> 00:10:23.250
be something that makes them more ready to take

00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:24.850
in that knowledge. Because we all have had the

00:10:24.850 --> 00:10:27.129
experience of sharing about this with someone

00:10:27.129 --> 00:10:30.610
and them not receiving it the way we did. You

00:10:30.610 --> 00:10:34.590
know, we learned about animal suffering and at

00:10:34.590 --> 00:10:37.070
some point something clicked in. where we wanted

00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:39.629
to make a change. So I do feel that there's probably

00:10:39.629 --> 00:10:41.830
something different, whether it's, you know,

00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:45.990
the neurodivergence, whether it's a greater sensitivity,

00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:52.009
you know, emotional sensitivity or empathy, or,

00:10:52.149 --> 00:10:55.110
you know, I don't really know the answer to that,

00:10:55.169 --> 00:10:57.669
but I do sense there's probably something that's

00:10:57.669 --> 00:11:02.100
a little different. And the hope is that As it

00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:04.320
spreads and it becomes a little bit more and

00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:06.519
more mainstream, it'll be easier for people that

00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:10.179
may not have those same sensitive qualities or

00:11:10.179 --> 00:11:12.820
however you might describe them to also embrace

00:11:12.820 --> 00:11:16.740
this lifestyle more easily. And I think right

00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:20.899
now, yeah, I'm sensing there must be a difference

00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:23.320
because not everybody just rushes into it in

00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:25.519
the same way. And I think some people also are

00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.580
more affected by that social piece that we've

00:11:28.580 --> 00:11:31.379
talked about. Some, like you mentioned, someone

00:11:31.379 --> 00:11:34.019
who's neurodivergent or have other qualities,

00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:35.879
they might be more okay with being different

00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:39.200
because they're already different in some way.

00:11:39.299 --> 00:11:41.759
Or they might, some of us take pride in being

00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.340
different, so we don't mind taking on a lifestyle

00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:47.039
that no one else around us in our immediate circle

00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.679
is in. But some people are much more uncomfortable

00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:54.980
standing out or being different. So I think that

00:11:54.980 --> 00:11:57.639
becomes a challenge for some. people embracing

00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:01.799
a lifestyle that requires them to go against

00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.340
what seemed to be the norms in culture. There

00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:08.440
was another workshop at the AVA about writing

00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:13.159
books. And I did not realize that the process

00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.799
of writing a book could be as long as, you know,

00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.799
take three years. How long did it take for your

00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.539
book to, you know, from writing the first page

00:12:24.539 --> 00:12:30.490
to publish it? Yeah, well, it started first with

00:12:30.490 --> 00:12:38.570
research. I began that in spring of 2021. And

00:12:38.570 --> 00:12:41.990
the research was doing a survey and follow up

00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:45.009
interviews with people who are vegan, who were

00:12:45.009 --> 00:12:48.740
willing to do the survey. I didn't have a huge

00:12:48.740 --> 00:12:51.419
circle at that time. I've gotten to know more

00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:53.559
people over time because I was still a fairly

00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:55.899
new vegan at that point, just a couple of years

00:12:55.899 --> 00:13:00.039
in. But I had about 350 people fill out the survey,

00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:02.820
and then I followed up with 75 interviews. And

00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:06.019
from that, that whole period, that took about

00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:10.539
a year or more to do those. And then I followed

00:13:10.539 --> 00:13:12.919
up by looking at what were the core themes that

00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.559
came through, and those became the themes that...

00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.419
are illustrated in the different chapters of

00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:23.980
the books, the book, the writing process, probably,

00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.259
probably a couple of years, and I would say six

00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:29.500
months of that full time, you know, the last

00:13:29.500 --> 00:13:31.139
six months before it was due to the publisher,

00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:34.580
it was just like, constant. Before that, it was

00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:36.519
sort of hit or miss, like I do a little bit,

00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:38.500
and then I'd be too busy and wouldn't get to

00:13:38.500 --> 00:13:40.720
it. And then, you know, I do a little bit more.

00:13:41.419 --> 00:13:45.590
So it was a long process. And what made me do

00:13:45.590 --> 00:13:49.070
it. It's just, it felt like something that I

00:13:49.070 --> 00:13:52.490
was called to do. I felt like I knew a lot of

00:13:52.490 --> 00:13:55.149
people who are spiritual and compassionate through

00:13:55.149 --> 00:13:57.789
my work as a therapist, through my spiritual

00:13:57.789 --> 00:14:01.149
path, through being a transformational coach

00:14:01.149 --> 00:14:03.490
as well. It's all these people that cared about

00:14:03.490 --> 00:14:05.649
creating a better world, but yet they hadn't

00:14:05.649 --> 00:14:07.529
made this connection. And I just wondered like,

00:14:07.549 --> 00:14:10.629
what would invite someone who's on that kind

00:14:10.629 --> 00:14:14.269
of path of growth or spirituality or becoming

00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:18.350
their best self what what would invite them into

00:14:18.350 --> 00:14:20.149
this lifestyle and i just felt there was so much

00:14:20.149 --> 00:14:23.629
in common that for me being more true to myself

00:14:23.629 --> 00:14:25.769
has been lined up with this path of becoming

00:14:25.769 --> 00:14:30.409
vegan so i wanted to explore things that fit

00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:33.129
in that whole personal growth path and how does

00:14:33.129 --> 00:14:35.029
that relate to veganism and there was a lot of

00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:40.870
overlap so In total, that would be four years.

00:14:41.610 --> 00:14:43.549
Yeah, because there was a year for the publisher

00:14:43.549 --> 00:14:47.730
to have it too. Yes. Wow. Wow, that's incredible.

00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:52.210
Yes, yes. The publishers had it this past year.

00:14:52.389 --> 00:14:54.230
And so there was a lot of back and forth with

00:14:54.230 --> 00:14:56.830
editing and other aspects during that time too.

00:14:58.429 --> 00:15:04.690
That's so precious. Just again, about writing,

00:15:04.789 --> 00:15:08.830
and we'll get back to the topic at hand. How

00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:12.570
did it feel once, you know, you saw the book

00:15:12.570 --> 00:15:16.610
with the cover and, you know, yes, exactly. Once

00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:20.389
you had it in your hands, how did it feel? Yeah,

00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:22.870
it was amazing because I've had a vision of writing

00:15:22.870 --> 00:15:25.649
since childhood, but for many years, just my

00:15:25.649 --> 00:15:28.509
work, I was just too busy writing other than

00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:31.769
maybe journaling was on the back burner. And

00:15:31.769 --> 00:15:35.950
to actually... to follow through and bring it

00:15:35.950 --> 00:15:38.470
forward is amazing. Because there were many times

00:15:38.470 --> 00:15:40.649
during the process, I wasn't sure I'd ever get

00:15:40.649 --> 00:15:42.190
it finished. It just seemed like everything would

00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:44.830
get in the way or just, but I just kept taking

00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:46.690
the next step and the next step and reaching

00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:49.870
out for support. I had different, you know, I

00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:53.629
had a book writing program that I was part of

00:15:53.629 --> 00:15:55.289
in the very beginning that kind of helped me

00:15:55.289 --> 00:15:57.649
with how to think through the outline and how

00:15:57.649 --> 00:16:02.029
to get the process going so that I had some traction.

00:16:03.210 --> 00:16:05.289
So different supports along the way, different

00:16:05.289 --> 00:16:08.129
coaches and mentors and people that encouraged

00:16:08.129 --> 00:16:10.830
me, but just taking the next step and the next

00:16:10.830 --> 00:16:12.649
step. And then when it came down to a deadline,

00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:17.210
when I had a publisher, Lantern Publishing, which

00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:19.549
is a great publisher, they work a lot with vegan

00:16:19.549 --> 00:16:24.250
and animal rights books. Yeah, just getting it

00:16:24.250 --> 00:16:26.570
done. And so, yeah, it feels amazing. It's just

00:16:26.570 --> 00:16:28.610
like, wow, this real thing in the world. And

00:16:28.610 --> 00:16:31.250
again, being more of an introvert, a book is

00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:34.809
a great way to express yourself because it just

00:16:34.809 --> 00:16:37.789
helps me put things in words that maybe are harder

00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:42.970
for me to speak sometimes. Yes, I can relate

00:16:42.970 --> 00:16:46.029
to that. It feels easier to write down things

00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:50.389
and then express them. Okay, let's get back to

00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:55.320
the book. So you mentioned what I would consider

00:16:55.320 --> 00:17:01.039
some buzzwords in that space of self -development.

00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:08.180
Now, I have to say, this is not a world that

00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:16.099
I'm familiar with. And the question I always

00:17:16.099 --> 00:17:23.049
have when I hear that is, Healing from what exactly?

00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:26.950
And growing to become what? What's the finality

00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:31.829
to all of that? So can we just first clear that

00:17:31.829 --> 00:17:35.349
up? And I'm sure a lot of people would have different

00:17:35.349 --> 00:17:38.450
answers. You just had an amazing guest on your

00:17:38.450 --> 00:17:41.990
last episode on this podcast that I could learn

00:17:41.990 --> 00:17:44.430
a lot from. So I think there will be different

00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:48.470
answers from different people. So I guess speaking

00:17:48.470 --> 00:17:51.609
from my own experience, both personally and as

00:17:51.609 --> 00:17:56.589
a psychologist, you know, psychology studies

00:17:56.589 --> 00:17:59.730
different areas. Sometimes I'm a clinical psychologist.

00:17:59.769 --> 00:18:01.829
And so in clinical psychology, we're trained

00:18:01.829 --> 00:18:04.769
more to help people with things in their life

00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:07.849
that were impeding their functioning or getting

00:18:07.849 --> 00:18:10.250
in the way of life, working as well as they'd

00:18:10.250 --> 00:18:12.230
like it to, things like depression or anxiety

00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:15.589
or trauma that might be. causing symptoms and

00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:20.170
affecting their lives. There's also a newer part

00:18:20.170 --> 00:18:22.609
of psychology called positive psychology that

00:18:22.609 --> 00:18:25.390
is really about what makes life worth living,

00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:28.490
what makes us feel fulfilled as human beings.

00:18:28.569 --> 00:18:31.589
So it goes beyond just where we might have problems

00:18:31.589 --> 00:18:35.309
or challenges to what makes us want to live and

00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:39.710
really appreciate life. So I find both things

00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:44.640
interesting. We all certainly, many of us certainly

00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.859
have challenges that get in the way in our lives

00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:48.500
that we need to learn how to navigate. And then

00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:53.660
hopefully we can also work towards greater meaning

00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:56.460
or purpose or fulfillment in our life. That's

00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:01.660
certainly a hope for many of us. So yeah, I guess

00:19:01.660 --> 00:19:05.980
for me, it's about... I mean, I'm also a spiritual

00:19:05.980 --> 00:19:08.279
person. So for me, it's also about the sense

00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:10.640
that I have a deeper purpose. I may not fully

00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.460
understand it, but I feel like I'm here for a

00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:17.839
reason. I may not know all the reasons, but I'm

00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.259
trying to discover what they are and that I'm

00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:23.240
made the way I am to contribute in a certain

00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:24.940
way. And I believe other people have their unique

00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:28.799
gifts to bring in their own unique way. So that's

00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:34.940
kind of my way of looking at it. read about,

00:19:34.940 --> 00:19:37.680
you know, the link you make with spirituality.

00:19:38.259 --> 00:19:42.039
I kept thinking of a case here in Canada of a

00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:46.819
firefighter who was denied, you know, he was

00:19:46.819 --> 00:19:50.599
sent to the wilderness to combat forest fires.

00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:54.220
And the government is supposed to provide you

00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:58.740
with food when you're in those remote areas,

00:19:58.819 --> 00:20:03.960
and they denied him vegan food. He's a vegan

00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.799
firefighter. And he decided to sue the government.

00:20:09.019 --> 00:20:13.819
His case, I think, is pending. And the argument

00:20:13.819 --> 00:20:17.039
he made is that veganism is a religion for him.

00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:23.019
And that should be protected. Do you agree with

00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:29.819
that? Can veganism be a religion? That's interesting.

00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:34.869
I've heard that idea before. you know, it might

00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:36.789
not be something others would recognize as a

00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:41.690
religion, but it's a set of beliefs and values

00:20:41.690 --> 00:20:45.369
that guide someone's life. In my way of thinking,

00:20:45.470 --> 00:20:47.549
it would make sense. I had one person that I

00:20:47.549 --> 00:20:49.710
interviewed that I think I share her story in

00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:51.589
the chapter that has to do with spirituality.

00:20:51.809 --> 00:20:54.690
And she says, you know, basically, I think of

00:20:54.690 --> 00:20:57.390
veganism as my religion, you know, or compassion

00:20:57.390 --> 00:20:59.950
as my religion is maybe the way she put it. But

00:20:59.950 --> 00:21:04.900
for her, the two were So I did have people say

00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:07.500
that to me. And one who was an atheist would

00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:10.640
say that if I were to view myself as having a

00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.000
religion, it would be compassion and or veganism.

00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:17.000
So I would say, why not? You know, maybe not

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:22.680
everybody would agree. The first question I asked

00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.799
Bhante Sati, who you referenced from the last

00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:32.430
episode, was about, well, How do you motivate

00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:36.289
people to want to be happy in the first place?

00:21:38.470 --> 00:21:42.730
And I mentioned how, you know, some people, because

00:21:42.730 --> 00:21:45.650
of guilt, because of addiction, because of all

00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:50.250
sorts of things, are just not interested in the

00:21:50.250 --> 00:21:54.890
happy, fulfilling life you portray in the book.

00:21:55.869 --> 00:21:59.960
So those people, you know, What do you make of

00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:06.079
them and how to push them into the right way?

00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.660
Are you thinking of anything in particular? Can

00:22:11.660 --> 00:22:17.500
you give me an example? For sure. I mean, I went

00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:23.000
through a list with him, like anger. I've seen

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:28.279
people being addicted. to anger because i feel

00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:34.599
like it's an intense emotion and activists can

00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:38.700
you know be very angry and feel entitled to that

00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:41.359
anger although it is very detrimental to their

00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.940
health anger is one guilt you know i mentioned

00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:49.380
i don't deserve to be happy you know the animals

00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:54.089
are so miserable and all of that so why Should

00:22:54.089 --> 00:22:56.309
I be happy? Again, it feels very irrational.

00:22:56.890 --> 00:22:59.789
But I guess that's the point. You know, that's

00:22:59.789 --> 00:23:06.089
why they're stuck in this state. I appreciate

00:23:06.089 --> 00:23:09.970
you sharing that. Because that is a real struggle.

00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:13.829
And two teachers who I admire greatly that speak

00:23:13.829 --> 00:23:16.009
to this quite a lot, and I do reference them

00:23:16.009 --> 00:23:18.829
in my book. One is Dr. Melanie Joy, who wrote

00:23:18.829 --> 00:23:21.329
not only the book, Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs,

00:23:21.329 --> 00:23:23.829
and Wear Cows. but also another book, Beyond

00:23:23.829 --> 00:23:26.890
Beliefs, that's about communication and also

00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:31.769
has a section on trauma that vegans can experience.

00:23:32.809 --> 00:23:35.990
Also, Claire Mann, who wrote the book, Dystopia,

00:23:36.069 --> 00:23:38.609
The Anguish of Being Vegan in a Non -Vegan World.

00:23:39.569 --> 00:23:44.349
So both of them are very immersed in their respective

00:23:44.349 --> 00:23:46.630
vegan communities. Claire Mann's in Australia.

00:23:48.600 --> 00:23:51.859
Melanie Joy right now is in Germany but both

00:23:51.859 --> 00:23:53.799
of them also have global communities so they

00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.500
they just are really deeply immersed with vegans

00:23:56.500 --> 00:23:59.799
and I think the message that I get from them

00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:02.559
and just from also my training to try to help

00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.460
people I guess heal or live their best lives

00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:11.539
whatever that means for different people first

00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:17.779
of all you know as vegans we want to be We want

00:24:17.779 --> 00:24:19.779
to help the animals. I mean, that's the driving

00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:23.299
force. We want a compassionate world where animals

00:24:23.299 --> 00:24:25.640
are not put in these conditions or suffering

00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.819
or exploited or commodified. And yet, you know,

00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:31.500
and so we have a lot of different feelings. And

00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:34.640
I do think, you know, as Dr. Joy speaks to that,

00:24:34.700 --> 00:24:38.039
some of us as vegans, especially those who witness

00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:42.460
a lot of what happens directly or through watching

00:24:42.460 --> 00:24:46.579
lots of videos. It can be traumatic to our nervous

00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:50.160
system. We're watching atrocities. And I don't

00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.799
think our nervous systems were really made to

00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:55.640
handle seeing that over and over again without

00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:57.720
having some kind of coping strategies or some

00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.140
support in place for how to handle that. Because

00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:02.660
it's just, it's overwhelming. And I think it

00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:07.039
can change our thinking. People who have versions

00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:10.539
of post -traumatic stress or vicarious trauma

00:25:10.539 --> 00:25:14.099
of watching someone else. have something horrible

00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:17.359
happen. It can change our thinking where we only

00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:19.799
see the world in more black and white, good people,

00:25:19.940 --> 00:25:25.380
bad people, heroes, victims, perpetrators. And,

00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:30.160
you know, and that ultimately is not going to

00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.519
lead to, it's going to be challenging to lead

00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.119
to change for the animals because we're sometimes

00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:37.200
then trying to communicate and handle things

00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:38.779
in a way that aren't going to connect to those

00:25:38.779 --> 00:25:42.720
around us who we're trying to influence. hopefully

00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:45.339
have them wake awaken to some of what we're trying

00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:48.579
to share so yes if we're angry it's detrimental

00:25:48.579 --> 00:25:51.299
to us because i mean if we're stuck in that anger

00:25:51.299 --> 00:25:53.839
is a normal emotion it's okay to feel it it's

00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.079
normal to feel it when there's atrocity but we

00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:58.000
need ways to work through the feelings so that

00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.180
they're not just stuck permanently in us and

00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:03.819
that we're not just relying on that as our fuel

00:26:03.819 --> 00:26:06.799
because that can lead to burnout definite our

00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:08.900
nervous system is not meant to be stuck in fight

00:26:08.900 --> 00:26:13.119
or flight You know, it's meant to be a temporary

00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.660
state and then we have ways to kind of come back

00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:20.539
to balance. So I guess I would just say because

00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:22.640
we want to be effective, one motivating factor

00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.380
would be if we don't, it's true, if we don't

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:27.180
take care of ourselves, we won't be very good

00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:30.180
at helping the cause that we're trying to help.

00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:33.380
We're also animals. We have limits. Our nervous

00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:36.579
systems have limits. So that would be, I guess,

00:26:36.579 --> 00:26:40.839
my... for wanting to work on yourself and care

00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:47.000
for yourself and have better tools. Here's a

00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:52.440
more provocative way to maybe describe this,

00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:57.660
and I will tie it to a question. Would you say

00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:02.940
that those people who are unhappy and going through

00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:07.579
the vegan burnouts, are just not doing veganism

00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:10.839
the right way. And that if they did it the right

00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:14.539
way, they would actually feel happier instead

00:27:14.539 --> 00:27:20.279
of more miserable. Yeah, I don't feel comfortable

00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:22.839
with that way of thinking about things. I tend

00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:29.440
to appreciate people wherever they're at. in

00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.440
their own way of doing things. I mean, there

00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:32.880
are people that are there on the front lines

00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.279
doing things that I'm not doing. And honestly,

00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:38.819
I've worked with people with trauma, my whole

00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:41.460
profession, and that itself takes a toll on you,

00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.720
you know, when you witness people suffering,

00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:47.740
and you feel with them, you feel for them, and

00:27:47.740 --> 00:27:49.799
you have to have tools to kind of navigate that

00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:53.000
so that you're not burned out trying to help

00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.799
someone else, you know what I mean? So So I can,

00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:57.720
you know, I haven't been the one on the front

00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:00.799
lines with the animals. So I can only just empathize,

00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.819
especially for those that are doing more direct

00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:06.880
activism work. And I don't pretend to have an

00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:10.240
answer for them doing it right. But I would say

00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:14.680
that if someone is suffering, they too deserve

00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:17.160
care and help on their journey. And there are

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:21.279
people. that can help with that. There are vegan

00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.400
therapists, you know, for example, In Defense

00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.220
of Animals has a great list of people who, you

00:28:27.220 --> 00:28:30.940
know, resources, as well as a list of coaches

00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:34.259
and therapists that, you know, are vegans themselves.

00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:39.359
So I just say we, you know, those that are caring

00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.319
for others, in this case, caring for animals,

00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:47.619
which is you know, missing a lot in our society.

00:28:47.779 --> 00:28:49.519
There's just not, you know, there's not enough

00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:51.859
of it clearly of caring for animals. And so you're

00:28:51.859 --> 00:28:54.900
on the forefront of something that I believe,

00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:58.700
as John Oberg said on one of his Instagram quotes,

00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.900
it will become known to be the ethical and just

00:29:01.900 --> 00:29:03.700
way to live someday. And people will be like,

00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:05.480
I can't believe they used to eat animals, but

00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.799
we're not there yet. I just have much compassion

00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.259
for people that might be doing this and perhaps

00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:14.759
themselves suffering in the process because they're

00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.099
feeling with the animals and they're seeing things

00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:21.480
not change. But I would also say there is help

00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.220
and support out there too and not to go through

00:29:24.220 --> 00:29:27.880
it alone if possible. I thought that your book

00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:34.500
would be a powerful tool for activists that want

00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:39.059
to. sell the vegan lifestyle so what would you

00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:42.180
say to activists out there you know how to use

00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:45.240
your book and what benefits should they highlight

00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:50.720
the most to a non -vegan audience cool well i

00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:52.660
appreciate you saying that you know when i did

00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:55.599
write it i i really did have two groups in mind

00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.319
you know one were the vegans i knew that who

00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.599
were like me and that they were always wanting

00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:04.519
to grow and learn and have more ways to share

00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:08.059
it and to share veganism and, and, and to also

00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:11.099
be fulfilled ourselves. There's nothing wrong

00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:12.960
with wanting to be fulfilled yourself to have,

00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:16.019
you know, to, that doesn't mean we're happy all

00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:20.000
the time by any means, but it does mean that

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.980
we can feel good that we're trying to live as

00:30:24.980 --> 00:30:29.539
true to our values as possible. So, so I guess.

00:30:30.109 --> 00:30:31.930
What I would say is, you know, and then the other

00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:34.269
audience were pre -vegans. I tried to write it

00:30:34.269 --> 00:30:36.630
in a nonjudgmental way that would invite people

00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:39.029
that could be curious about this lifestyle, but

00:30:39.029 --> 00:30:44.230
not fully there to explore it. So I guess in

00:30:44.230 --> 00:30:47.269
terms of, you know, I guess it would be about

00:30:47.269 --> 00:30:50.250
relating to people where they're at. I think

00:30:50.250 --> 00:30:53.309
that is often what's helpful. And so I do touch

00:30:53.309 --> 00:30:59.009
on seven different. transformative themes i guess

00:30:59.009 --> 00:31:01.390
you'd say that kind of came through and so for

00:31:01.390 --> 00:31:03.910
you know they just to say them quickly you know

00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:06.390
one is values alignment that you know you're

00:31:06.390 --> 00:31:09.450
really truly living more aligned with your values

00:31:09.450 --> 00:31:13.769
such as compassion and justice there's the deepening

00:31:13.769 --> 00:31:16.369
of compassion expanding of compassion because

00:31:16.369 --> 00:31:19.769
so often we have compassion for one group but

00:31:19.769 --> 00:31:22.450
not others you know even though most people are

00:31:22.450 --> 00:31:25.420
compassionate towards animals when they do surveys

00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:27.200
and stuff like that, you know, that most people

00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.200
report empathy and compassion for animals, but

00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:32.380
we know it's all, it's compartmentalized just

00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:34.500
as sometimes we compartmentalize it only towards

00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:39.200
certain people too. Then the fourth, the next

00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:44.000
one, the third was purpose and meaning that a

00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.180
lot of people who are vegan find that just simply

00:31:46.180 --> 00:31:48.980
by not eating animals or buying animal products

00:31:48.980 --> 00:31:53.160
and that itself. leads to meaning and purpose

00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:55.200
but then some take it further whether it be through

00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.500
activism or through businesses or other ways

00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:03.359
of sharing veganism and then authentic fulfillment

00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.859
that one was a little bit more complex to try

00:32:06.859 --> 00:32:08.819
to capture because I think that's in that chapter

00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:10.519
I was trying to capture what you're referring

00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:14.140
to earlier this whole thing of like we might

00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:16.359
struggle as vegans and yet there can be fulfillment

00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:20.680
and you know so kind of honoring that Our emotions

00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.299
can be a complex place where we can have a lot

00:32:23.299 --> 00:32:26.380
of different feelings. And actually, those that

00:32:26.380 --> 00:32:28.059
are emotionally healthy are not people that are

00:32:28.059 --> 00:32:30.559
just happy all the time, usually. It's actually

00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:32.759
that they do have a diversity of emotions and

00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:36.980
they learn how to navigate those. Then there

00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:39.299
was connecting with the tribe. One of the most

00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:42.220
fulfilling things that we can experience as vegans

00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:44.160
is that there's other people that share this

00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.470
deep passion and commitment. That was fulfilling

00:32:48.470 --> 00:32:52.890
for a lot of people. And then empowerment over

00:32:52.890 --> 00:32:55.250
health, whether you became vegan for the animals

00:32:55.250 --> 00:32:57.710
or some people I interviewed became vegan for

00:32:57.710 --> 00:32:59.750
health reasons, but then awakened to the compassion

00:32:59.750 --> 00:33:03.829
for animals once they weren't eating them. But

00:33:03.829 --> 00:33:06.650
whatever your reason, for example, one woman

00:33:06.650 --> 00:33:11.009
that became vegan because of the animals. later

00:33:11.009 --> 00:33:13.569
healed her fibromyalgia. That just kind of happened

00:33:13.569 --> 00:33:16.509
unexpectedly because she no longer was eating

00:33:16.509 --> 00:33:19.349
all these inflammatory foods. So a number of

00:33:19.349 --> 00:33:21.890
people do have physical healings because plants

00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:26.809
are healthier for us. So that in our health crisis

00:33:26.809 --> 00:33:30.609
in this country and beyond, you know, that's

00:33:30.609 --> 00:33:33.250
kind of an amazing thing that veganism doesn't

00:33:33.250 --> 00:33:35.190
necessarily always lead to. I guess it depends

00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:37.549
on if you're more whole. whole plant foods or

00:33:37.549 --> 00:33:41.309
not, but it can lead to healing and empower you

00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:43.690
to realize I don't just have to depend on doctors

00:33:43.690 --> 00:33:46.569
or medicine necessarily, that there's things

00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:49.569
I can do. And then the final one was the one

00:33:49.569 --> 00:33:51.630
you and I talked about earlier, kind of a spiritual

00:33:51.630 --> 00:33:54.930
component or a sense that I'm connected with

00:33:54.930 --> 00:33:57.509
all of life. Again, once I'm not eating animals,

00:33:57.569 --> 00:34:00.730
I can see that there's this connectedness between

00:34:00.730 --> 00:34:04.400
me and all of nature. So I would say, you know,

00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.079
depending on the person you're talking to, any

00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.119
of those could be an entry point. If someone's

00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:11.760
sort of spiritual, you know, you could share

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.239
how people have experienced spiritual deepening

00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:18.719
through not eating animals. And if they're into,

00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:22.159
you know, compassion, you know, that would be

00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:24.719
an entry point. If they have health issues, that

00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.500
could be another entry point. I think it's really,

00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:28.880
it's helpful to meet people where they're at.

00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:30.619
Because if we just kind of go on and on about

00:34:30.619 --> 00:34:33.300
something that doesn't interest a person, I don't

00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:37.079
know, sort of connecting with them and then going

00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.380
from there. I think we hear a lot about, you

00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:46.400
know, the health argument for veganism. I am

00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:51.099
of the opinion, you know, I don't usually invite

00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:53.900
people in the health space on my podcast because

00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:57.039
I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a dietician.

00:34:57.099 --> 00:35:00.820
I don't know if what they're saying is, you know,

00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:07.070
accurate or not. But at a bare minimum, becoming

00:35:07.070 --> 00:35:13.110
vegan has made me focus more on nutrition, educate

00:35:13.110 --> 00:35:18.730
myself. I used to eat whatever came around. And

00:35:18.730 --> 00:35:24.469
now, since I became vegan, I learned how to cook.

00:35:24.630 --> 00:35:32.360
I learned about how to have balanced meals. All

00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.880
of that in supplement. And also there's the fact

00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:40.940
that vegan food, even the junk vegan food, is

00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:45.559
not as horrible as the junk non -vegan food.

00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:53.539
So take even meat, for instance. There are traces

00:35:53.539 --> 00:35:58.639
of excrements in meat. There are hormones in

00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:03.309
meat. There are, you know, antibiotics in meat

00:36:03.309 --> 00:36:08.809
and even antibiotic -resistant bacteria in meat.

00:36:09.369 --> 00:36:12.610
Like, you don't need to be a dietician to know

00:36:12.610 --> 00:36:16.170
that this is bad for you. You should not be consuming

00:36:16.170 --> 00:36:20.820
that. You should not know. specific things about

00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:24.739
cholesterol levels and protein intake or whatever

00:36:24.739 --> 00:36:28.739
to understand that this is dangerous and zoonotic

00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:32.659
diseases too. This is more of a public health

00:36:32.659 --> 00:36:36.320
argument than individual consumption, but still

00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:43.079
a very important point. The rest that you brought

00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:49.800
up, I haven't seen many, if any, activists use

00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:54.280
those benefits to sell the vegan lifestyle. I

00:36:54.280 --> 00:37:00.219
mean, for instance, the tribe part. Let's make

00:37:00.219 --> 00:37:05.739
it, you know, veganism. Let's make it a social

00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:09.480
group that you can join instead of, you know,

00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:12.449
let me... show you all of that horrible footage.

00:37:12.909 --> 00:37:17.389
I mean, that's a strategy. That's a tactic that

00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:21.570
I haven't seen many activists, if not any, again,

00:37:21.670 --> 00:37:30.150
use it. You mentioned also the compassion, deepening

00:37:30.150 --> 00:37:36.929
the compassion one. This would be very interesting

00:37:36.929 --> 00:37:43.800
to explore with prisoners or there are all sorts

00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:51.199
of programs that can be utilized as vehicles

00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:56.920
for this message where the whole goal is to really

00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:04.679
re -socialize certain people and we're already

00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:09.280
using animals as a tool for that with zootherapy

00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:14.519
with for instance prisoners um so why not you

00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:20.099
know bring veganism in in that space um so yeah

00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:23.659
i i was really excited to go through um those

00:38:23.659 --> 00:38:29.079
benefits for that reason and yeah so what do

00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:31.780
you think of all of that i'll let you speak i

00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:37.179
just had a thought so yeah like i think Whatever

00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:40.300
the reason that someone gets curious, it often

00:38:40.300 --> 00:38:45.099
then opens them to learning more beyond. So I

00:38:45.099 --> 00:38:47.659
don't think we have to feel that we have to invite

00:38:47.659 --> 00:38:50.380
people in just one way and have that be the only

00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:53.579
way. Or like if someone becomes vegan for health,

00:38:53.619 --> 00:38:55.280
that they're not going to also be compassionate

00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.000
for animals. Some don't, but there's a lot of,

00:38:58.039 --> 00:38:59.619
you know, first of all, they're eating less animals,

00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.400
you know, if they're even if. They're not fully

00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.500
awakened to that piece yet. But I just found

00:39:05.500 --> 00:39:08.579
a large number, whatever their reason was for

00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:11.719
entering the door, that they started to learn

00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:14.340
all the other benefits and reasons for doing

00:39:14.340 --> 00:39:17.380
this over time. And it seemed that people that

00:39:17.380 --> 00:39:21.460
had more reasons for it were even more committed

00:39:21.460 --> 00:39:26.000
to it. So definitely. whatever way we want to

00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.559
introduce them in. And for some people, the positives

00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:31.320
are going to be the way they're going to be more

00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:36.039
interested. An interesting book that I'm just

00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:37.960
starting to read now, I haven't gotten very far

00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:40.179
into it, but it's a new book, Hungry Beautiful

00:39:40.179 --> 00:39:44.019
Animals by Professor Halteman. He's a professor

00:39:44.019 --> 00:39:47.900
of philosophy. Grand Rapids, Michigan. And he'd

00:39:47.900 --> 00:39:50.260
probably be great to be on this podcast. But

00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:53.400
his is about the joyful case for being vegan

00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:57.639
after trying for many years to, like many of

00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:01.119
us, try to share the more negatives, you know,

00:40:01.139 --> 00:40:03.119
like what this is what happens to animals, this

00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.159
is the atrocities. He was finding that, I think,

00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:09.320
in his teaching and other things that that wasn't

00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:11.360
landing as well as when he actually taught about

00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:15.039
the beauty of animals and taught about how complex

00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.539
and interesting they are and started to open

00:40:17.539 --> 00:40:22.800
people up to more positive aspects that then

00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.900
would lead to their interest and curiosity. And

00:40:25.900 --> 00:40:28.119
so I think that's sort of my way of thinking.

00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:30.519
I'm approaching it a little differently. He's

00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:33.139
a philosophy professor. I'm a psychologist. So

00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:36.719
mine is more about how do we grow and benefit

00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:39.500
personally when we honor our values and our compassion.

00:40:40.349 --> 00:40:43.170
So for some people, that entry point is going

00:40:43.170 --> 00:40:47.829
to be more appealing than hearing the negative

00:40:47.829 --> 00:40:50.250
things that happen to animals. And it's not that

00:40:50.250 --> 00:40:51.829
that doesn't need to be known, but sometimes

00:40:51.829 --> 00:40:54.889
people shut down. You know, we humans don't like

00:40:54.889 --> 00:40:57.809
to suffer. And so people shut down when something

00:40:57.809 --> 00:41:01.090
is overwhelming to them. And they may not take

00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:03.489
it in or they may get defensive. And so it's

00:41:03.489 --> 00:41:06.730
not always as effective as we'd like to share.

00:41:08.469 --> 00:41:10.590
the atrocities that happen to animals. I know

00:41:10.590 --> 00:41:13.170
that I've done that before and I can't say that

00:41:13.170 --> 00:41:15.769
I led to any change through that. But when I

00:41:15.769 --> 00:41:20.909
share the benefits in my life and why it matters

00:41:20.909 --> 00:41:23.989
to me, I do get more curiosity from people that

00:41:23.989 --> 00:41:27.849
want to know more. So I think we each have our

00:41:27.849 --> 00:41:30.250
own way. And so I'm not going to, I think there's

00:41:30.250 --> 00:41:32.210
a place for people approaching things in different

00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:36.190
ways. It's maybe most important that we find

00:41:36.190 --> 00:41:38.969
the way that is aligned for us, that we can share

00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:43.909
it and hopefully inspire others. Well, I love

00:41:43.909 --> 00:41:47.309
the win -win -win model. So it's a win for me,

00:41:47.329 --> 00:41:50.809
it's a win for you, and it's a win for the general

00:41:50.809 --> 00:41:56.130
public too, our third party. Now, if you identify

00:41:56.130 --> 00:42:06.739
solitude as a struggle in society, as a solution

00:42:06.739 --> 00:42:10.639
to join your local vegan community, vegan club,

00:42:10.739 --> 00:42:14.380
then it's really a win -win -win situation. It's

00:42:14.380 --> 00:42:19.579
a win for you. You know, you're finding a community,

00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:24.420
you're breaking that solitude issue. It's a win

00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:28.039
for the cause and it's a win for animals. and

00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:31.920
society as a whole. So why not explore that?

00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:41.880
It's weird because people always compare veganism

00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.780
and the animal cause as a social justice movement.

00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:51.179
And I'm thinking about it more and more, not

00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:54.880
as a social justice movement, but as... as we

00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.860
discussed earlier, as a religion. And religions,

00:43:01.059 --> 00:43:06.599
which is a good thing for us, have had lots of

00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.219
success in gaining members and influence. And

00:43:10.219 --> 00:43:13.400
so maybe we should stop thinking about it as

00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:19.280
a social justice movement and more as a religion

00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:25.650
that we're trying to spread. Just having this

00:43:25.650 --> 00:43:31.989
conversation, I started thinking, was there ever

00:43:31.989 --> 00:43:37.849
a campaign to go and knock at people's door and

00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:43.869
do the kind of thing that Jehovah's Witnesses

00:43:43.869 --> 00:43:50.550
do, like with a pamphlet? I feel like that could

00:43:50.550 --> 00:43:54.619
be very impactful. please look at all the benefits

00:43:54.619 --> 00:44:00.119
you would get from joining this vegan cult. And

00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:06.639
yeah, that's invigorating to see that there is

00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:10.300
someone thinking about other things than protests

00:44:10.300 --> 00:44:16.179
and boycotting and all of that. Yeah, I mean,

00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:22.289
it's interesting the way you're putting it. But

00:44:22.289 --> 00:44:25.409
inviting people in to learn more and sharing

00:44:25.409 --> 00:44:30.329
how it does benefit them. I mean, there is something

00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:35.489
to that. And as people learn more, then they

00:44:35.489 --> 00:44:39.289
can expand their reasons, you know, for why this

00:44:39.289 --> 00:44:42.190
matters. But sometimes it's just entering in

00:44:42.190 --> 00:44:44.369
and also, like you say, having a supportive community,

00:44:44.530 --> 00:44:47.750
which means I think one thing as vegans, we have

00:44:47.750 --> 00:44:51.070
to be more accepting of people's journeys. as

00:44:51.070 --> 00:44:53.250
you mentioned, there is a lot of recidivism,

00:44:53.250 --> 00:44:55.230
you know, where people might start the journey.

00:44:55.269 --> 00:44:58.590
But what they find is a lot of people that are

00:44:58.590 --> 00:45:00.909
not vegan anymore, there's a certain percentage,

00:45:00.929 --> 00:45:04.409
like half or so, that want to try it again. So

00:45:04.409 --> 00:45:06.349
it's just sort of, I think we have to be a little

00:45:06.349 --> 00:45:11.030
bit more open to letting people in and not just

00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:14.090
making it a closed club, you know, where you

00:45:14.090 --> 00:45:16.389
have to be perfect or you're out or, you know,

00:45:16.409 --> 00:45:19.420
it's just... We have to support people because

00:45:19.420 --> 00:45:21.840
people do have challenges. And how do we support

00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.440
them through those challenges and make this an

00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:28.519
inviting community to be part of? Yes, I mean,

00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:33.500
if you want to get into it, it's one of my biggest

00:45:33.500 --> 00:45:40.079
interests because I've seen groups under the

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:44.880
vegan umbrella who have been kind of excluded.

00:45:47.260 --> 00:45:50.440
For instance, people who are leaning right, you

00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:55.380
know, like conservatives, people who are deeply

00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:59.519
religious or find that, you know, their veganism

00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.559
has sense through a religious lens, you know,

00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.900
Christian people, all of that, who tend to be

00:46:05.900 --> 00:46:09.139
also pro -life. And, you know, that ties back

00:46:09.139 --> 00:46:12.840
to the conservative part. Now, recently, Jewish

00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:17.000
vegans, many of them because of... this whole

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.260
political thing have felt like they are no longer

00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.820
welcome in a movement that defines itself as

00:46:24.820 --> 00:46:28.860
more on the left and as a political movement,

00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:35.960
not so much as a spiritual, religious group.

00:46:38.059 --> 00:46:43.820
So yeah, how do we show that we have more in

00:46:43.820 --> 00:46:48.239
common than... divides us and that we should

00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.780
prioritize again and again the animals over our

00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:57.079
tribalism yes yeah yeah I mean you're naming

00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:00.119
something obviously there's a lot going on culturally

00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:03.960
and you know and certainly in the US but also

00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:07.099
beyond right now just different divisions and

00:47:07.099 --> 00:47:09.679
it's not surprising it would also show up in

00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:12.059
The vegan community, just because, you know,

00:47:12.139 --> 00:47:14.960
these things that are going on beyond us tend

00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:17.760
to show up in smaller communities, too. But you're

00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:23.219
right. If we can look more to what unites us,

00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:28.340
what our shared values are, how, you know, trying

00:47:28.340 --> 00:47:31.219
to understand one another better and certainly

00:47:31.219 --> 00:47:35.539
wanting to be inclusive. I mean, yeah, some of

00:47:35.539 --> 00:47:38.260
us like being individualist, but I think we all.

00:47:38.809 --> 00:47:41.489
want a vegan world. And so we're going to have

00:47:41.489 --> 00:47:43.110
to invite in people that are different than us

00:47:43.110 --> 00:47:45.469
for that to happen. We're going to have to learn

00:47:45.469 --> 00:47:49.210
to navigate different views on other areas. And

00:47:49.210 --> 00:47:56.389
so, yeah, how do we become welcoming and inclusive

00:47:56.389 --> 00:48:02.550
and navigate where we do have differences? Yeah,

00:48:02.610 --> 00:48:06.769
I was having this conversation recently as a

00:48:06.769 --> 00:48:11.539
vegan. People I deeply love and care about in

00:48:11.539 --> 00:48:16.679
my life eat meat and don't care much about the

00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:22.960
animal cause. I haven't censored them and turned

00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:26.219
my back to them because of that. I haven't isolated

00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:29.860
myself from them because they don't share my

00:48:29.860 --> 00:48:35.780
vegan outlook on life. And in fact, I found value

00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:40.659
in being a constant presence in their life and

00:48:40.659 --> 00:48:43.239
I've seen throughout the years that they have

00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:46.639
changed just from me being there and pointing

00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:49.699
out hey did you know that this is not good for

00:48:49.699 --> 00:48:54.940
you because and if I wasn't there that change

00:48:54.940 --> 00:49:00.679
would not have been you know incited so then

00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:05.630
I'm always surprised to see vegans separating

00:49:05.630 --> 00:49:09.590
themselves from fellow vegans for things that

00:49:09.590 --> 00:49:15.869
I found to be very minor differences. How strange

00:49:15.869 --> 00:49:19.429
is that? And I feel like it's a psychological

00:49:19.429 --> 00:49:24.510
thing that is shared with many movements that

00:49:24.510 --> 00:49:29.889
we're much more, you know, harsh with people.

00:49:30.429 --> 00:49:34.250
of our tribe than of others, you know, those

00:49:34.250 --> 00:49:38.869
who are outside the tribe. So yeah, how do you

00:49:38.869 --> 00:49:47.610
explain that? Yeah. These are tough things to

00:49:47.610 --> 00:49:52.449
sometimes understand. But I think for many of

00:49:52.449 --> 00:49:56.489
us, we tend to want to protect ourselves in some

00:49:56.489 --> 00:49:59.429
way. It may not be conscious, but we think by

00:49:59.429 --> 00:50:02.349
closing off to people who have views that feel

00:50:02.349 --> 00:50:07.829
different or threatening. Sometimes we're, I

00:50:07.829 --> 00:50:09.389
don't know, we just seem to cut, you know, many

00:50:09.389 --> 00:50:11.590
of us seem to cut off from dialogue around those

00:50:11.590 --> 00:50:13.429
issues. And then, you know, and I'm trying to

00:50:13.429 --> 00:50:16.630
think in terms of myself when I feel that what's

00:50:16.630 --> 00:50:19.969
going on, you know, and perhaps am I feeling.

00:50:20.699 --> 00:50:23.400
Someone might try to sway me to their point of

00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:26.820
view, you know, when I don't want to be, or am

00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:29.039
I feeling like they're not going to understand

00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:33.099
mine? Or is it, you know, it seems like our culture

00:50:33.099 --> 00:50:37.699
has moved away from being able to dialogue about

00:50:37.699 --> 00:50:40.619
tough issues of disagreement. And some people

00:50:40.619 --> 00:50:43.280
I do think have that gift and that skill, but

00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:46.420
I do think it's more of a skill set that people

00:50:46.420 --> 00:50:49.409
have to actually work at. I think of, for example,

00:50:49.630 --> 00:50:52.570
nonviolent communication techniques by Marshall

00:50:52.570 --> 00:50:56.309
Rosenberg, where you're really trying to attend

00:50:56.309 --> 00:50:59.409
to what is the feeling that, you know, is beneath

00:50:59.409 --> 00:51:02.389
what someone is saying. You're going a little

00:51:02.389 --> 00:51:04.710
deeper with understanding where people are coming

00:51:04.710 --> 00:51:07.789
from. You don't have to agree with them, but

00:51:07.789 --> 00:51:09.630
you can say, you know, I hear that you're feeling

00:51:09.630 --> 00:51:13.730
this. I can hear that you're thinking this and

00:51:13.730 --> 00:51:18.380
validate that you hear them without it. necessarily.

00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.880
And so I think this is a lost art or skill in

00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:24.000
our culture. You don't see it modeled in, you

00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:28.340
know, the media at all or very little, but it's

00:51:28.340 --> 00:51:30.139
something we're going to need to kind of come

00:51:30.139 --> 00:51:33.219
to, I think. I don't know, things are kind of

00:51:33.219 --> 00:51:35.719
coming to a head with the way media and everything

00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:39.059
else is these days. So I hope we as vegans can

00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:42.139
learn that because I mean, we're vegan in part

00:51:42.139 --> 00:51:44.599
because of compassion and a care for the well

00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:46.980
-being of others. So can we extend that compassion

00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:50.119
to others, even if we don't agree with them on

00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:52.300
certain issues and just realize we're all trying

00:51:52.300 --> 00:51:54.380
to find our way. We're all trying to find meaning.

00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:56.980
We're all, we probably share a lot of the same

00:51:56.980 --> 00:52:01.219
values underneath. Yes, definitely. I second

00:52:01.219 --> 00:52:08.000
that. Which one of those benefits that you named

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:19.179
feels very meaningful to you personally? Gosh,

00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:21.800
they all do in some way. Sorry, I need a sip

00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:30.300
of water here. Yeah, they all do. And it's really

00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:34.179
hard for me to narrow it down. But I think I've

00:52:34.179 --> 00:52:37.099
always been a person that's been driven by wanting

00:52:37.099 --> 00:52:40.239
a sense of purpose. So that is definitely one

00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:43.920
that's coming through. I would say the other

00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:46.500
would be compassion that those two right now

00:52:46.500 --> 00:52:48.519
are the ones I'm thinking about the most. I've

00:52:48.519 --> 00:52:52.380
always been a compassionate person. But I realized

00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:55.940
that like many of us that that's been compartmentalized.

00:52:56.809 --> 00:52:59.269
That I didn't look at, for example, the animals

00:52:59.269 --> 00:53:01.630
that were part of my food. You know, I just,

00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:06.690
like many of us, I thought that, you know, I

00:53:06.690 --> 00:53:09.150
was socialized to believe I had to eat them.

00:53:09.210 --> 00:53:11.230
You know, that I grew up in the Midwest. You

00:53:11.230 --> 00:53:12.750
know, this is what you do. This is, you know,

00:53:12.750 --> 00:53:14.829
this is how we do things. You just don't look

00:53:14.829 --> 00:53:17.929
at it. You don't think about it. So for me, expanding

00:53:17.929 --> 00:53:21.010
my natural compassion, that's been a big one.

00:53:21.949 --> 00:53:23.809
And then through that, I think it's expanded

00:53:23.809 --> 00:53:26.750
my sense of purpose. So those two have been really

00:53:26.750 --> 00:53:29.610
meaningful for me. I've always felt purpose through

00:53:29.610 --> 00:53:35.650
my work, but now it's led me to a more public

00:53:35.650 --> 00:53:39.309
role than I guess I had before because it felt

00:53:39.309 --> 00:53:42.550
like it mattered that much. And it's not that

00:53:42.550 --> 00:53:44.449
what I did before didn't matter too, but it was

00:53:44.449 --> 00:53:46.070
more private. It was working with people one

00:53:46.070 --> 00:53:48.730
-on -one. Now I see like bringing those years

00:53:48.730 --> 00:53:53.719
of experience. To help create a more compassionate,

00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:57.179
connected world. That's just how I think of it,

00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:59.440
where we feel more connected to ourselves, to

00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:02.380
one another, to the sentient beings of our planet,

00:54:02.460 --> 00:54:06.480
to the planet itself, to the universe, you know.

00:54:08.059 --> 00:54:11.360
And that we have more compassion for ourselves

00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:13.739
and for one another. And I don't see it as either

00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:19.800
or, I see it as all and. Sorry to bring him up,

00:54:19.940 --> 00:54:23.460
but... There's this guy called Jordan Peterson,

00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:32.679
who is a top 10 anti -vegan people, vocal anti

00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:38.460
-vegan out there. He always talks about meaning

00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:42.659
and how it is important to gain meaning in one's

00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:50.079
life. And he opposed that to... the pursuit of

00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:53.639
happiness. He says that, you know, the pursuit

00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:59.179
of happiness is very superficial and that we

00:54:59.179 --> 00:55:03.460
should mostly focus on meaning and that happiness

00:55:03.460 --> 00:55:11.539
will come, you know, as a symptom of a quest

00:55:11.539 --> 00:55:18.809
for meaning. What do you make of that? And does

00:55:18.809 --> 00:55:21.690
that relate to the anti -vegan part, or is that

00:55:21.690 --> 00:55:25.210
just a more general view of his? Well, I feel

00:55:25.210 --> 00:55:28.170
like I had to mention that he's incredibly anti

00:55:28.170 --> 00:55:31.130
-vegan. He's one of those people who follow the

00:55:31.130 --> 00:55:37.250
carnivorous diet. Yes, and he swears by it every

00:55:37.250 --> 00:55:39.489
time he has a public appearance. He talks about

00:55:39.489 --> 00:55:42.710
how bad it is to have this plant -based diet

00:55:42.710 --> 00:55:47.369
and how you should be eating lots of meat. I

00:55:47.369 --> 00:55:51.889
mean, we'll see how his health, you know, holds

00:55:51.889 --> 00:55:55.710
up. Yeah, I would think that that's going to

00:55:55.710 --> 00:55:59.449
be very hard on his cardiovascular system. But

00:55:59.449 --> 00:56:04.710
he has lots of appeal. I mean, I certainly don't

00:56:04.710 --> 00:56:08.769
agree with that part of his lifestyle, but that's,

00:56:08.769 --> 00:56:11.530
you know, regarding the meaning and purpose,

00:56:11.630 --> 00:56:15.000
you know, I do cite in my chapter on meaning

00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.719
and purpose that there was this article about

00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:18.980
differences between a happy life and a meaningful

00:56:18.980 --> 00:56:22.380
life. And they looked at how the two relate and

00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:24.719
they found there's some overlap that people who

00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:27.179
feel a sense of meaning do tend to be happier

00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:29.840
and vice versa. But there were also differences

00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:33.780
in this particular research where people that

00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:37.179
felt their life was meaningful, it could also

00:56:37.179 --> 00:56:39.980
sometimes lead to more stress or more arguments.

00:56:41.420 --> 00:56:44.599
And some things in worry, things like that. And

00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.300
they speculated that that was because when something

00:56:47.300 --> 00:56:51.239
really matters to you, you're willing to fight

00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:55.519
for it. I mean, a lot of people can have meaning.

00:56:55.659 --> 00:56:58.920
Obviously, people who we really disagree with

00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:00.619
can feel a sense of meaning in what they're doing.

00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:02.840
And so, I mean, I don't know that meaning is

00:57:02.840 --> 00:57:07.619
good or bad necessarily in and of itself. I think

00:57:07.619 --> 00:57:10.260
that's maybe why for me when I tied compassion

00:57:10.260 --> 00:57:12.719
and meaning together, because for me, you know,

00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:17.420
you could feel meaningful, I guess, just by taking

00:57:17.420 --> 00:57:19.820
advantage of other people. And I don't know,

00:57:19.860 --> 00:57:22.059
there could be meaning in ways that are not healthy

00:57:22.059 --> 00:57:28.460
by most of our standards or not kind. But others

00:57:28.460 --> 00:57:31.860
of us, maybe meaning is part of caring for others,

00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:35.519
caring for the planet. caring for all sentient

00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:38.920
beings. And so that's where I fall on that spectrum,

00:57:39.059 --> 00:57:43.380
but not that I'm perfect in it. I guess we're

00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:45.579
all growing and learning where our blind spots

00:57:45.579 --> 00:57:48.699
are. And so, yeah, it's an interesting discussion

00:57:48.699 --> 00:57:51.639
that I would imagine that maybe Hitler felt meaning,

00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:54.699
you know, I don't know, but so I don't know that

00:57:54.699 --> 00:57:57.780
meaning in and of itself is always something

00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:00.679
we'd associate with. good psychological health

00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:02.960
necessarily. It usually is, but that doesn't

00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:07.539
mean in every case. Well, here's an unpopular

00:58:07.539 --> 00:58:10.900
opinion. I feel like Jordan Peterson is not a

00:58:10.900 --> 00:58:13.780
happy person, and I'm suspicious of that. I'm

00:58:13.780 --> 00:58:17.340
sorry, but if you can't, you know, be happy in

00:58:17.340 --> 00:58:20.559
your own life, how can you, you know, give me

00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:26.489
advice on my life and guide me to a... a fruitful,

00:58:26.750 --> 00:58:31.389
fulfilled life if you're this miserable person.

00:58:32.789 --> 00:58:34.869
And I've never listened to him. Does he come

00:58:34.869 --> 00:58:39.630
across as sort of unhappy? Yes, he comes across

00:58:39.630 --> 00:58:46.070
as very frustrated and antagonistic. Yeah, well,

00:58:46.349 --> 00:58:48.809
I'm with you. I think when we're looking at people

00:58:48.809 --> 00:58:51.610
that we want to emulate, we want to see what

00:58:51.610 --> 00:58:55.050
are the fruits of their... and their attitudes?

00:58:56.710 --> 00:58:59.010
How does it make us feel when we listen to them?

00:58:59.170 --> 00:59:01.030
You know, I mean, those things are things we

00:59:01.030 --> 00:59:03.289
need to discern because right now there's a lot

00:59:03.289 --> 00:59:08.750
of voices out there, right? I mean, and I don't

00:59:08.750 --> 00:59:12.130
know all the answers. I struggle with, you know,

00:59:12.150 --> 00:59:14.250
I struggle with holding the questions sometimes

00:59:14.250 --> 00:59:17.710
and not knowing the answers. At the same time,

00:59:17.710 --> 00:59:21.179
one thing that's really cool in my book, that

00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:23.699
I love is that I quoted a lot of the people I

00:59:23.699 --> 00:59:26.480
interviewed with their great experiences and

00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:28.260
insights. And I just, you know, like what one

00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:30.780
person said is, you know, veganism to them felt

00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:33.960
like truth because it just, it felt like things

00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:36.300
came together, like what they already knew that

00:59:36.300 --> 00:59:40.659
compassion for all beings, we all, statistics

00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:43.960
show that, you know, 85 % or more of Americans

00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:46.300
believe animals should be treated compassionately,

00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:49.079
you know, and yet we eat them. Some numbers are

00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:50.599
even higher than that, you know, that people

00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:53.500
feel like we should be compassionate to animals,

00:59:53.699 --> 00:59:57.960
including farmed animals. But yet we eat them.

00:59:58.019 --> 01:00:01.460
So it's just sort of when something shifts, we're

01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:03.719
like, I don't just have to keep eating the way

01:00:03.719 --> 01:00:08.500
I was taught to eat. I can go back to what actually

01:00:08.500 --> 01:00:11.099
was probably more prevalent in the past when

01:00:11.099 --> 01:00:13.340
people had gardens and, you know, grew their

01:00:13.340 --> 01:00:16.340
own food more and just eat from the earth more

01:00:16.340 --> 01:00:19.900
naturally. The processed foods, too, that, you

01:00:19.900 --> 01:00:22.500
know, no animal had to suffer for them. And they're

01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:26.099
also more sustainable for the planet. So there's

01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:28.480
just this piece when all these pieces come together

01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:34.260
that actually makes sense to us. So, yeah, there's

01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:35.840
a lot of voices out there. And I guess we have

01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:39.280
to discern which voices really resonate in our

01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:45.639
hearts. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it is. kind

01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:49.420
of our duty, at least in the communication space,

01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:57.139
to find ways to respond to those vocal anti -vegans

01:00:57.139 --> 01:01:03.460
and to give alternatives to people. So again,

01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:09.289
he's very appealing, very popular. So, yeah,

01:01:09.369 --> 01:01:13.610
we cannot just ignore him when he's so vocal

01:01:13.610 --> 01:01:18.230
against veganism. And right now, I understand

01:01:18.230 --> 01:01:22.530
that there's just more of a vocal group like

01:01:22.530 --> 01:01:24.550
that these days, from what I understand. I don't

01:01:24.550 --> 01:01:27.170
hear a lot of it myself, but I hear from other

01:01:27.170 --> 01:01:32.190
people about it. And it seems like, yeah. And

01:01:32.190 --> 01:01:35.150
some people have speculated. There was a podcast

01:01:35.150 --> 01:01:37.630
I was listening to recently with someone who

01:01:37.630 --> 01:01:41.659
is, sharing that she'd learned that some influencers,

01:01:41.739 --> 01:01:44.239
you know, are even paid by the meat industry

01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:48.480
or dairy industry to try to help. So I have no

01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:51.659
idea about that. But there's certainly the meat

01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:53.840
and dairy industry are big, and they have a lot

01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:58.059
of lobbying dollars and money to influence things.

01:01:59.739 --> 01:02:04.940
Do you have a way when, you know, once we have

01:02:05.550 --> 01:02:08.309
nuggets of information related to psychology

01:02:08.309 --> 01:02:12.369
that comes our way do you have a way to be critical

01:02:12.369 --> 01:02:17.429
of them to filter them in in our lives um and

01:02:17.429 --> 01:02:21.550
to i guess you know make the difference between

01:02:21.550 --> 01:02:25.949
misinformation and uh what is accurate so for

01:02:25.949 --> 01:02:29.070
instance for the meaning part um you brought

01:02:29.070 --> 01:02:31.949
to my understanding a much more nuanced view

01:02:31.949 --> 01:02:35.539
on you know meaning the quest for meaning in

01:02:35.539 --> 01:02:39.780
one's life never thought of it this way but when

01:02:39.780 --> 01:02:44.320
you came when you come face to face with that

01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:48.599
kind of rhetoric related to psychology what should

01:02:48.599 --> 01:02:52.539
be the first instinct are you asking like how

01:02:52.539 --> 01:02:55.579
to make sense of what might be more accurate

01:02:55.579 --> 01:03:01.610
or truthful or so for instance you know um i

01:03:01.610 --> 01:03:06.250
said i'm not a dietitian not a nutritionist so

01:03:06.250 --> 01:03:09.050
when i come you know face to face with facts

01:03:09.050 --> 01:03:13.289
related to nutrition i always ask myself what

01:03:13.289 --> 01:03:18.090
is the consensus what is the expert consensus

01:03:18.090 --> 01:03:22.949
on on this aspect of nutrition and if there isn't

01:03:22.949 --> 01:03:27.110
any if it's just one study in in the vacuum then

01:03:27.110 --> 01:03:31.530
i know you know what to make of it um so is there

01:03:31.530 --> 01:03:34.329
a version of that for psychology yeah i would

01:03:34.329 --> 01:03:36.829
say for a lot of things there are you know and

01:03:36.829 --> 01:03:39.050
i think you know probably with the nutrition

01:03:39.050 --> 01:03:41.590
piece you've probably found some trusted resources

01:03:41.590 --> 01:03:45.539
that that do their own research and vetting,

01:03:45.539 --> 01:03:48.159
you know, for example, for me, I find that the

01:03:48.159 --> 01:03:49.940
Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:54.159
and or Dr. Greger, you know, they're both, you

01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:57.519
know, nutritionfacts .org. Those are, you know,

01:03:57.539 --> 01:03:59.579
and then I can do my own research too, to some

01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:02.679
degree and look at things. So yeah, I would say

01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:06.260
in psychology, it could be similar in that. A

01:04:06.260 --> 01:04:09.280
lot of topics, there are articles and research

01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:11.239
that look at different things. It's not as easy

01:04:11.239 --> 01:04:14.440
to pinpoint sometimes because psychological concepts

01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:17.780
can be a little bit harder sometimes to grasp.

01:04:18.139 --> 01:04:20.360
But maybe just what you said a little bit ago

01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:25.260
is, is it nuanced? You know, most things in psychology

01:04:25.260 --> 01:04:27.679
are not always cut and dried. And, you know,

01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:32.860
there most often is nuance. And so it's whatever

01:04:32.860 --> 01:04:36.340
it is being shared in a way that, allows for

01:04:36.340 --> 01:04:38.780
nuance that allows for difference that allows

01:04:38.780 --> 01:04:42.960
to make sense of something not in a black and

01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:45.760
white cut and dried way but in a way that actually

01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:49.059
fits the kind of messiness of our humanity and

01:04:49.059 --> 01:04:54.340
the diversity of our humanity so so and there

01:04:54.340 --> 01:04:56.119
you know there certainly is research out there

01:04:56.119 --> 01:05:00.530
and I suppose, for example, the American Psychological

01:05:00.530 --> 01:05:03.530
Association might be a resource for some research

01:05:03.530 --> 01:05:08.309
articles and things like that. But yeah, I think

01:05:08.309 --> 01:05:13.849
the nuance piece could be a big part of it. And

01:05:13.849 --> 01:05:16.289
someone not just being driven by their own ego

01:05:16.289 --> 01:05:18.530
to have to prove a point, but actually wanting

01:05:18.530 --> 01:05:22.110
to know what is the deeper truth here. We have

01:05:22.110 --> 01:05:26.000
you as a voice to remind us that. Being vegan

01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:28.559
is not about removing things from your life.

01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:34.219
It's also about gaining things and gaining new

01:05:34.219 --> 01:05:39.039
perspectives, new friends, new meaning and new

01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:44.219
forms of joy. You know, it's often people, I

01:05:44.219 --> 01:05:48.099
think, deep down can feel threatened when we

01:05:48.099 --> 01:05:52.119
tell them, you know, become vegan. And they think

01:05:52.119 --> 01:05:55.219
of it as... well, you're trying to take away

01:05:55.219 --> 01:05:58.719
my way of life, trying to take away my habits,

01:05:58.900 --> 01:06:03.199
my this and that. And actually, it's not the

01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:06.179
case. I'm trying to give you something, which

01:06:06.179 --> 01:06:10.360
is, you know, much healthier perspective, I think,

01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:16.500
for activists to have. And also for vegans who...

01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:20.400
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And I was just thinking,

01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:24.000
you know, even though, for example, vegans know

01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:27.619
that veganism is not about food per se. Food

01:06:27.619 --> 01:06:31.320
can be the biggest obstacle for people because

01:06:31.320 --> 01:06:33.840
we have to eat, you know? And so, and like you

01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:35.719
say, it can be tied to our culture. It can be

01:06:35.719 --> 01:06:38.880
tied to our upbringing and our memories. We have

01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:41.659
emotional attachments to certain foods. And so

01:06:41.659 --> 01:06:46.380
discovering that veganism is abundant in multiple

01:06:46.380 --> 01:06:50.659
ways, you know, starting with the food. You know,

01:06:50.659 --> 01:06:53.119
that many of us discover that actually our food

01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:56.539
choices expand, really. I mean, I eat so much

01:06:56.539 --> 01:06:59.420
more diversely and interestingly than I did before

01:06:59.420 --> 01:07:01.139
I was vegan, where I just ate the same things

01:07:01.139 --> 01:07:04.480
over and over again. And just now I try all different

01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:06.840
kinds of spices and foods. And I like to cook

01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:11.119
now. I didn't before. So it did open up my food

01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:14.019
world and expanded it in ways that are wonderful.

01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:17.000
But then it also expanded me beyond that, too,

01:07:17.059 --> 01:07:21.119
you know. many other ways psychologically emotionally

01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:28.300
spiritually socially do you find that um vegans

01:07:28.300 --> 01:07:33.780
become more resilient to um the trials that life

01:07:33.780 --> 01:07:39.159
um throws at us um you know for having done that

01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:42.480
uh transformation for having grown our heart

01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:46.980
and all of that yeah I definitely like to think

01:07:46.980 --> 01:07:49.139
so. You know, again, I don't know that there

01:07:49.139 --> 01:07:51.599
would be any hard studies that would know for

01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:55.840
sure about that. But just the very foundation

01:07:55.840 --> 01:08:02.099
of looking at our values, seeing that a choice

01:08:02.099 --> 01:08:04.079
that we're making every day is not aligning,

01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:07.500
going against what is the quote unquote societal

01:08:07.500 --> 01:08:11.800
norm to eat and live in a way that is aligned,

01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:14.579
and then being able to navigate the tough emotions.

01:08:15.790 --> 01:08:19.109
Claire Mann calls it the burden of knowing, you

01:08:19.109 --> 01:08:21.550
know, this burden of being aware of suffering

01:08:21.550 --> 01:08:23.989
in a way that other people are still kind of

01:08:23.989 --> 01:08:27.489
walled off from seeing or feeling. Learning to

01:08:27.489 --> 01:08:29.869
navigate all of that, I would think, gives a

01:08:29.869 --> 01:08:34.529
certain amount of resilience, and it certainly

01:08:34.529 --> 01:08:37.949
can. And so that's where I think, you know, for

01:08:37.949 --> 01:08:40.550
those vegans that might be struggling emotionally,

01:08:40.770 --> 01:08:43.729
that... Finding ways to care for yourself, whether

01:08:43.729 --> 01:08:46.649
it be the meditation that your last guest was

01:08:46.649 --> 01:08:48.850
teaching about and certainly including that.

01:08:48.989 --> 01:08:52.569
And then my book is filled with a lot of different

01:08:52.569 --> 01:08:55.590
exercises that are kind of self -care exercises.

01:08:56.170 --> 01:09:00.409
Each chapter has things that involve. There's

01:09:00.409 --> 01:09:03.109
some guided meditations. There's other exercises.

01:09:03.109 --> 01:09:05.350
Just having ways to care for yourself through

01:09:05.350 --> 01:09:09.800
this because. you know, the better place that

01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:11.800
you're in, you know, and it's okay that you have

01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:14.920
tough emotions, that's understandable, but also

01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:16.800
having a way to get through those emotions so

01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:19.659
that you don't feel stuck in them. That's, I

01:09:19.659 --> 01:09:23.260
think, so important for us on this vegan journey.

01:09:23.380 --> 01:09:25.779
And some people might not struggle with the tough

01:09:25.779 --> 01:09:28.180
emotions as much, you know, and others might.

01:09:28.300 --> 01:09:31.619
And so just wherever you're at, having resources

01:09:31.619 --> 01:09:36.720
and support. Wonderful. Angela, this has been

01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:40.720
such a an amazing conversation. I feel like we

01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:45.039
went everywhere. You ask some good questions,

01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:47.939
you really do. Thank you. Well, I need to keep

01:09:47.939 --> 01:09:51.220
the conversation interesting and also not take

01:09:51.220 --> 01:09:57.060
away from the book. I don't want people to feel

01:09:57.060 --> 01:10:00.560
like reading the book is just a repeat of the

01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:07.050
podcast they heard. So yes, it's a... It's an

01:10:07.050 --> 01:10:13.270
exercise in communication. And yes, please get

01:10:13.270 --> 01:10:16.270
the book. The book, again, is called The Vegan

01:10:16.270 --> 01:10:27.090
Transformation. You need to nourish and inspire

01:10:27.090 --> 01:10:30.189
yourself with new perspectives on what it means

01:10:30.189 --> 01:10:37.140
to be an activist for veganism. and live your

01:10:37.140 --> 01:10:40.880
veganism in a healthy manner. And this book,

01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:47.979
again, supported with studies and nuanced takes,

01:10:48.180 --> 01:10:52.579
get you there. I really appreciate your time,

01:10:52.619 --> 01:10:54.560
Angela. Did you want to add something before

01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:58.460
we end the conversation? No, I mean... nothing

01:10:58.460 --> 01:11:00.439
that I can think of other than just, it was really

01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:03.380
a pleasure to be here. And you, you asked really

01:11:03.380 --> 01:11:06.180
deep questions that require, you know, a lot

01:11:06.180 --> 01:11:09.079
of, a lot of thought, you know, that don't have

01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:11.399
easy answers, but yet are really important to

01:11:11.399 --> 01:11:13.779
reflect on and for us to think about in a deeper

01:11:13.779 --> 01:11:18.359
way. And so I really appreciated the conversation

01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:22.180
and, and just sending, you know, best wishes

01:11:22.180 --> 01:11:25.579
to all listening. And, you know, certainly I

01:11:25.579 --> 01:11:29.380
can be You'll probably share my contact information

01:11:29.380 --> 01:11:33.979
in the notes about the episode, but at AngelaCrawfordPhD

01:11:33.979 --> 01:11:36.520
.com if there's questions or somebody wants to

01:11:36.520 --> 01:11:41.819
reach out. Yes. As I told people in the introduction,

01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:46.119
please visit the episode notes for a link to

01:11:46.119 --> 01:11:52.029
the book. And yes, contact Angela. She's available

01:11:52.029 --> 01:11:57.170
and she's amazing. So thank you again, Angela.

01:11:57.670 --> 01:12:01.109
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite

01:12:01.109 --> 01:12:03.609
you to share this podcast with the vegans you

01:12:03.609 --> 01:12:07.130
know. Let's encourage more people to take action.

01:12:07.750 --> 01:12:10.850
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will

01:12:10.850 --> 01:12:13.289
see you next Tuesday for a new episode.