Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan.
This episode is a reminder of why we want others
to become vegan. Not just because we care about
animals, but also because being vegan is amazing.
And we want to share this beautiful life experience
with the rest of the world. And to discuss this
topic... I have with me Dr. Angela Crawford,
a psychologist who wrote an entire book dedicated
to this issue called The Vegan Transformation,
which explores the impact of a vegan lifestyle
on our emotional, mental and spiritual well -being.
Among other things, we discussed if there was
a right or wrong way of being vegan, Jordan Peterson
and the question of meaning. why vegans can be
harsher with fellow vegans than carnists, how
veganism is a religion, the resilience of vegans,
and much, much more. Get the book now. Link in
the episode's notes. And for more thought -provoking
conversations, support this podcast by sharing
it with your fellow vegan. I was thinking of
the last episode I released with Bhante Satie.
And the whole intro of that episode, the whole
premise was that being vegan is hard. And lots
of people struggle to stay vegan. That's why
we get some studies from Phonolitics talking
about how there's a big relapse rate in the vegan
community. And when I, you know, received your
book, I was a bit skeptical at first. But then
I remembered, well, you are a 10 years vegan.
There must be some benefits in being vegan that,
you know, made you stay vegan for all these years.
Yeah, what do you make of that, of those two,
you know, opposite? that tension between is veganism
you know a struggle or is veganism you know something
beneficial that adds enrichment to your life
yeah i'm sure there's probably a lot of complexity
to how i can respond to that because i i you
know first want to acknowledge that different
vegans are going to have different experiences
just you know even though we're a smaller group
than those who are not vegan. It's still a wide,
expansive group of people that are vegan for
a variety, you know, a variety of things have
led us on this path. So first, just acknowledge
that we can be vegan and have very different
experiences. But what led me to look into the
idea, you know, I'd certainly heard and seen
how veganism can be challenging. one, we're a
minority. And so whenever you're living a different
lifestyle than those around you, that can lead
to challenges. And that's part of what you're
referring to with some of the research that some
of the research finds that the biggest reason
people don't stay vegan is for social reasons
that hold being different or being the one that
stands out or having to handle social situations,
which invariably involve animal products that
just some people find that very challenging to
navigate and and go back to what's familiar and
comfortable and societally you know the majority
of people are are doing there's also other aspects
that are challenging that you know the emotional
aspects especially for those that are very strong
ethical vegans and or activists feel when they
understand what happens to animals and in so
many different industries and then they don't
see people around them seeming to care So those
are definite challenges. And I, you know, address
those in the book, too. But I felt there hadn't
been enough attention to the benefits. And I
certainly experienced them. And maybe being a
newer vegan, it might be different for me than
someone who's been vegan for a really long time.
But I met different people through when I became,
when I shifted from vegetarian to vegan. I had
a lot of inner shifts inside of me that something
opened up. Even though vegetarian was a big step
for me because I did it for ethical reasons,
when I became vegan, I had to stand up in social
situations in a way that I hadn't fully had to
experience as a vegetarian was more acceptable,
I guess. And so suddenly now I'm having to verbalize
why am I making this shift to vegan that people
had a harder time understanding. I felt truer
to myself. I came out of being very, very introverted
and private to having a website and writing a
blog and wanting to share this. Something shifted
where I realized it was more than a personal
lifestyle choice for me, but something that affected
everything I cared about. Certainly the animals,
especially as I really connected more fully with
how... So many industries are harmful and exploitive
and cause suffering to animals. But I also realized
it was connected to the planet. As a psychologist,
I'd helped a lot of people with health issues
over the years. I saw how it was connected to
our health crisis. I just saw all these things
really actually were very interconnected, and
it felt like I couldn't just... keep it to myself
that it was part of my mission to share it in
some way and so I wanted to bring my background
in psychology and so my interest was more how
does this affect us psychologically in a positive
way and I knew it had been positive for me being
more true to myself finding an even deeper sense
of purpose feeling a weight lifted that I was
aligned with my values more fully that I hadn't
even known there was a weight. So as I met different
vegans around the globe, because I was in different
vegan networking groups and, you know, you feel
this bond with people that you've never met before
over this shared experience. And, you know, as
I met people and they had the same feelings and
some of them had, had transformed their lives
in different ways. I was in. just really surprised
on LinkedIn, for example, how many vegans have
businesses, you know, have created, you know,
some sort of business to spread the message and
share vegan products or share vegan services.
So that just led to my interest in studying this
more. So I think that both can exist. And what
makes the difference can be a lot of things.
I think how much support someone has as a, you
know, as a vegan, do they have? both good vegan
supports in their life, as well as a way to navigate
relationships with the non -vegans in their life
or the pre -vegans in their life. And, you know,
it is, I don't know, I know there's been up and
down as far as how societally accepted veganism
is. It seemed like it was moving to a lot more
acceptance. And then I hear lately that there's
more negativity about it. So there's ups and
downs there, but it is still probably much more
accepted than it was for vegans that became vegan
30 or more years ago. So I think there's a lot
of factors that play into how we experience it.
So I think it's complex, but I think both can
exist, that it can be a life -changing, positive
experience that I want to invite people into.
And yet there can be challenges, and I would
not minimize that they're there. Reference your
own journey to veganism. And that is a question
that comes back again and again. What makes someone
adopt a vegan lifestyle? I was at the AVA summit
last weekend. That's why I was late in releasing
episodes on my podcast. I had to prioritize that.
And at that event, there was an interesting meetup
about neurodiversity. And there, one of the persons
present in the meetup said, you know what, I
will say it, 70 % of people in this movement
are neurodiverse. And that made me think, well
then, Do we become vegan because we are destined
to be, because there are some quality to us that
made us attracted to this? Or is it more of a,
you know, you learn about ethics and all of that,
and you shape yourself into a vegan through your
life journey? What do you make of that question?
Yeah, it's so interesting. I don't, you know,
I don't think there's any, hard science to to
answer it so it'd just be reflections or thoughts
that i might have i do feel that the forerunners
of any kind of social justice movement may have
things that make them different being willing
to step out of what is considered normal or considered
okay by society and with this movement I do remember
there being some studies with people who were
vegans and omnivores looking at their brains
when they witnessed animal suffering and seeing
that vegans showed more empathy and certain parts
of the brain that measured empathy registered
more than omnivores did in seeing certain images.
So did that come before or after? I don't think
those studies can answer that. But my sense would
be that... A lot of people that do become vegan
before it's quote unquote the norm, which is
where we're still at, unfortunately, there must
be something that makes them more ready to take
in that knowledge. Because we all have had the
experience of sharing about this with someone
and them not receiving it the way we did. You
know, we learned about animal suffering and at
some point something clicked in. where we wanted
to make a change. So I do feel that there's probably
something different, whether it's, you know,
the neurodivergence, whether it's a greater sensitivity,
you know, emotional sensitivity or empathy, or,
you know, I don't really know the answer to that,
but I do sense there's probably something that's
a little different. And the hope is that As it
spreads and it becomes a little bit more and
more mainstream, it'll be easier for people that
may not have those same sensitive qualities or
however you might describe them to also embrace
this lifestyle more easily. And I think right
now, yeah, I'm sensing there must be a difference
because not everybody just rushes into it in
the same way. And I think some people also are
more affected by that social piece that we've
talked about. Some, like you mentioned, someone
who's neurodivergent or have other qualities,
they might be more okay with being different
because they're already different in some way.
Or they might, some of us take pride in being
different, so we don't mind taking on a lifestyle
that no one else around us in our immediate circle
is in. But some people are much more uncomfortable
standing out or being different. So I think that
becomes a challenge for some. people embracing
a lifestyle that requires them to go against
what seemed to be the norms in culture. There
was another workshop at the AVA about writing
books. And I did not realize that the process
of writing a book could be as long as, you know,
take three years. How long did it take for your
book to, you know, from writing the first page
to publish it? Yeah, well, it started first with
research. I began that in spring of 2021. And
the research was doing a survey and follow up
interviews with people who are vegan, who were
willing to do the survey. I didn't have a huge
circle at that time. I've gotten to know more
people over time because I was still a fairly
new vegan at that point, just a couple of years
in. But I had about 350 people fill out the survey,
and then I followed up with 75 interviews. And
from that, that whole period, that took about
a year or more to do those. And then I followed
up by looking at what were the core themes that
came through, and those became the themes that...
are illustrated in the different chapters of
the books, the book, the writing process, probably,
probably a couple of years, and I would say six
months of that full time, you know, the last
six months before it was due to the publisher,
it was just like, constant. Before that, it was
sort of hit or miss, like I do a little bit,
and then I'd be too busy and wouldn't get to
it. And then, you know, I do a little bit more.
So it was a long process. And what made me do
it. It's just, it felt like something that I
was called to do. I felt like I knew a lot of
people who are spiritual and compassionate through
my work as a therapist, through my spiritual
path, through being a transformational coach
as well. It's all these people that cared about
creating a better world, but yet they hadn't
made this connection. And I just wondered like,
what would invite someone who's on that kind
of path of growth or spirituality or becoming
their best self what what would invite them into
this lifestyle and i just felt there was so much
in common that for me being more true to myself
has been lined up with this path of becoming
vegan so i wanted to explore things that fit
in that whole personal growth path and how does
that relate to veganism and there was a lot of
overlap so In total, that would be four years.
Yeah, because there was a year for the publisher
to have it too. Yes. Wow. Wow, that's incredible.
Yes, yes. The publishers had it this past year.
And so there was a lot of back and forth with
editing and other aspects during that time too.
That's so precious. Just again, about writing,
and we'll get back to the topic at hand. How
did it feel once, you know, you saw the book
with the cover and, you know, yes, exactly. Once
you had it in your hands, how did it feel? Yeah,
it was amazing because I've had a vision of writing
since childhood, but for many years, just my
work, I was just too busy writing other than
maybe journaling was on the back burner. And
to actually... to follow through and bring it
forward is amazing. Because there were many times
during the process, I wasn't sure I'd ever get
it finished. It just seemed like everything would
get in the way or just, but I just kept taking
the next step and the next step and reaching
out for support. I had different, you know, I
had a book writing program that I was part of
in the very beginning that kind of helped me
with how to think through the outline and how
to get the process going so that I had some traction.
So different supports along the way, different
coaches and mentors and people that encouraged
me, but just taking the next step and the next
step. And then when it came down to a deadline,
when I had a publisher, Lantern Publishing, which
is a great publisher, they work a lot with vegan
and animal rights books. Yeah, just getting it
done. And so, yeah, it feels amazing. It's just
like, wow, this real thing in the world. And
again, being more of an introvert, a book is
a great way to express yourself because it just
helps me put things in words that maybe are harder
for me to speak sometimes. Yes, I can relate
to that. It feels easier to write down things
and then express them. Okay, let's get back to
the book. So you mentioned what I would consider
some buzzwords in that space of self -development.
Now, I have to say, this is not a world that
I'm familiar with. And the question I always
have when I hear that is, Healing from what exactly?
And growing to become what? What's the finality
to all of that? So can we just first clear that
up? And I'm sure a lot of people would have different
answers. You just had an amazing guest on your
last episode on this podcast that I could learn
a lot from. So I think there will be different
answers from different people. So I guess speaking
from my own experience, both personally and as
a psychologist, you know, psychology studies
different areas. Sometimes I'm a clinical psychologist.
And so in clinical psychology, we're trained
more to help people with things in their life
that were impeding their functioning or getting
in the way of life, working as well as they'd
like it to, things like depression or anxiety
or trauma that might be. causing symptoms and
affecting their lives. There's also a newer part
of psychology called positive psychology that
is really about what makes life worth living,
what makes us feel fulfilled as human beings.
So it goes beyond just where we might have problems
or challenges to what makes us want to live and
really appreciate life. So I find both things
interesting. We all certainly, many of us certainly
have challenges that get in the way in our lives
that we need to learn how to navigate. And then
hopefully we can also work towards greater meaning
or purpose or fulfillment in our life. That's
certainly a hope for many of us. So yeah, I guess
for me, it's about... I mean, I'm also a spiritual
person. So for me, it's also about the sense
that I have a deeper purpose. I may not fully
understand it, but I feel like I'm here for a
reason. I may not know all the reasons, but I'm
trying to discover what they are and that I'm
made the way I am to contribute in a certain
way. And I believe other people have their unique
gifts to bring in their own unique way. So that's
kind of my way of looking at it. read about,
you know, the link you make with spirituality.
I kept thinking of a case here in Canada of a
firefighter who was denied, you know, he was
sent to the wilderness to combat forest fires.
And the government is supposed to provide you
with food when you're in those remote areas,
and they denied him vegan food. He's a vegan
firefighter. And he decided to sue the government.
His case, I think, is pending. And the argument
he made is that veganism is a religion for him.
And that should be protected. Do you agree with
that? Can veganism be a religion? That's interesting.
I've heard that idea before. you know, it might
not be something others would recognize as a
religion, but it's a set of beliefs and values
that guide someone's life. In my way of thinking,
it would make sense. I had one person that I
interviewed that I think I share her story in
the chapter that has to do with spirituality.
And she says, you know, basically, I think of
veganism as my religion, you know, or compassion
as my religion is maybe the way she put it. But
for her, the two were So I did have people say
that to me. And one who was an atheist would
say that if I were to view myself as having a
religion, it would be compassion and or veganism.
So I would say, why not? You know, maybe not
everybody would agree. The first question I asked
Bhante Sati, who you referenced from the last
episode, was about, well, How do you motivate
people to want to be happy in the first place?
And I mentioned how, you know, some people, because
of guilt, because of addiction, because of all
sorts of things, are just not interested in the
happy, fulfilling life you portray in the book.
So those people, you know, What do you make of
them and how to push them into the right way?
Are you thinking of anything in particular? Can
you give me an example? For sure. I mean, I went
through a list with him, like anger. I've seen
people being addicted. to anger because i feel
like it's an intense emotion and activists can
you know be very angry and feel entitled to that
anger although it is very detrimental to their
health anger is one guilt you know i mentioned
i don't deserve to be happy you know the animals
are so miserable and all of that so why Should
I be happy? Again, it feels very irrational.
But I guess that's the point. You know, that's
why they're stuck in this state. I appreciate
you sharing that. Because that is a real struggle.
And two teachers who I admire greatly that speak
to this quite a lot, and I do reference them
in my book. One is Dr. Melanie Joy, who wrote
not only the book, Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs,
and Wear Cows. but also another book, Beyond
Beliefs, that's about communication and also
has a section on trauma that vegans can experience.
Also, Claire Mann, who wrote the book, Dystopia,
The Anguish of Being Vegan in a Non -Vegan World.
So both of them are very immersed in their respective
vegan communities. Claire Mann's in Australia.
Melanie Joy right now is in Germany but both
of them also have global communities so they
they just are really deeply immersed with vegans
and I think the message that I get from them
and just from also my training to try to help
people I guess heal or live their best lives
whatever that means for different people first
of all you know as vegans we want to be We want
to help the animals. I mean, that's the driving
force. We want a compassionate world where animals
are not put in these conditions or suffering
or exploited or commodified. And yet, you know,
and so we have a lot of different feelings. And
I do think, you know, as Dr. Joy speaks to that,
some of us as vegans, especially those who witness
a lot of what happens directly or through watching
lots of videos. It can be traumatic to our nervous
system. We're watching atrocities. And I don't
think our nervous systems were really made to
handle seeing that over and over again without
having some kind of coping strategies or some
support in place for how to handle that. Because
it's just, it's overwhelming. And I think it
can change our thinking. People who have versions
of post -traumatic stress or vicarious trauma
of watching someone else. have something horrible
happen. It can change our thinking where we only
see the world in more black and white, good people,
bad people, heroes, victims, perpetrators. And,
you know, and that ultimately is not going to
lead to, it's going to be challenging to lead
to change for the animals because we're sometimes
then trying to communicate and handle things
in a way that aren't going to connect to those
around us who we're trying to influence. hopefully
have them wake awaken to some of what we're trying
to share so yes if we're angry it's detrimental
to us because i mean if we're stuck in that anger
is a normal emotion it's okay to feel it it's
normal to feel it when there's atrocity but we
need ways to work through the feelings so that
they're not just stuck permanently in us and
that we're not just relying on that as our fuel
because that can lead to burnout definite our
nervous system is not meant to be stuck in fight
or flight You know, it's meant to be a temporary
state and then we have ways to kind of come back
to balance. So I guess I would just say because
we want to be effective, one motivating factor
would be if we don't, it's true, if we don't
take care of ourselves, we won't be very good
at helping the cause that we're trying to help.
We're also animals. We have limits. Our nervous
systems have limits. So that would be, I guess,
my... for wanting to work on yourself and care
for yourself and have better tools. Here's a
more provocative way to maybe describe this,
and I will tie it to a question. Would you say
that those people who are unhappy and going through
the vegan burnouts, are just not doing veganism
the right way. And that if they did it the right
way, they would actually feel happier instead
of more miserable. Yeah, I don't feel comfortable
with that way of thinking about things. I tend
to appreciate people wherever they're at. in
their own way of doing things. I mean, there
are people that are there on the front lines
doing things that I'm not doing. And honestly,
I've worked with people with trauma, my whole
profession, and that itself takes a toll on you,
you know, when you witness people suffering,
and you feel with them, you feel for them, and
you have to have tools to kind of navigate that
so that you're not burned out trying to help
someone else, you know what I mean? So So I can,
you know, I haven't been the one on the front
lines with the animals. So I can only just empathize,
especially for those that are doing more direct
activism work. And I don't pretend to have an
answer for them doing it right. But I would say
that if someone is suffering, they too deserve
care and help on their journey. And there are
people. that can help with that. There are vegan
therapists, you know, for example, In Defense
of Animals has a great list of people who, you
know, resources, as well as a list of coaches
and therapists that, you know, are vegans themselves.
So I just say we, you know, those that are caring
for others, in this case, caring for animals,
which is you know, missing a lot in our society.
There's just not, you know, there's not enough
of it clearly of caring for animals. And so you're
on the forefront of something that I believe,
as John Oberg said on one of his Instagram quotes,
it will become known to be the ethical and just
way to live someday. And people will be like,
I can't believe they used to eat animals, but
we're not there yet. I just have much compassion
for people that might be doing this and perhaps
themselves suffering in the process because they're
feeling with the animals and they're seeing things
not change. But I would also say there is help
and support out there too and not to go through
it alone if possible. I thought that your book
would be a powerful tool for activists that want
to. sell the vegan lifestyle so what would you
say to activists out there you know how to use
your book and what benefits should they highlight
the most to a non -vegan audience cool well i
appreciate you saying that you know when i did
write it i i really did have two groups in mind
you know one were the vegans i knew that who
were like me and that they were always wanting
to grow and learn and have more ways to share
it and to share veganism and, and, and to also
be fulfilled ourselves. There's nothing wrong
with wanting to be fulfilled yourself to have,
you know, to, that doesn't mean we're happy all
the time by any means, but it does mean that
we can feel good that we're trying to live as
true to our values as possible. So, so I guess.
What I would say is, you know, and then the other
audience were pre -vegans. I tried to write it
in a nonjudgmental way that would invite people
that could be curious about this lifestyle, but
not fully there to explore it. So I guess in
terms of, you know, I guess it would be about
relating to people where they're at. I think
that is often what's helpful. And so I do touch
on seven different. transformative themes i guess
you'd say that kind of came through and so for
you know they just to say them quickly you know
one is values alignment that you know you're
really truly living more aligned with your values
such as compassion and justice there's the deepening
of compassion expanding of compassion because
so often we have compassion for one group but
not others you know even though most people are
compassionate towards animals when they do surveys
and stuff like that, you know, that most people
report empathy and compassion for animals, but
we know it's all, it's compartmentalized just
as sometimes we compartmentalize it only towards
certain people too. Then the fourth, the next
one, the third was purpose and meaning that a
lot of people who are vegan find that just simply
by not eating animals or buying animal products
and that itself. leads to meaning and purpose
but then some take it further whether it be through
activism or through businesses or other ways
of sharing veganism and then authentic fulfillment
that one was a little bit more complex to try
to capture because I think that's in that chapter
I was trying to capture what you're referring
to earlier this whole thing of like we might
struggle as vegans and yet there can be fulfillment
and you know so kind of honoring that Our emotions
can be a complex place where we can have a lot
of different feelings. And actually, those that
are emotionally healthy are not people that are
just happy all the time, usually. It's actually
that they do have a diversity of emotions and
they learn how to navigate those. Then there
was connecting with the tribe. One of the most
fulfilling things that we can experience as vegans
is that there's other people that share this
deep passion and commitment. That was fulfilling
for a lot of people. And then empowerment over
health, whether you became vegan for the animals
or some people I interviewed became vegan for
health reasons, but then awakened to the compassion
for animals once they weren't eating them. But
whatever your reason, for example, one woman
that became vegan because of the animals. later
healed her fibromyalgia. That just kind of happened
unexpectedly because she no longer was eating
all these inflammatory foods. So a number of
people do have physical healings because plants
are healthier for us. So that in our health crisis
in this country and beyond, you know, that's
kind of an amazing thing that veganism doesn't
necessarily always lead to. I guess it depends
on if you're more whole. whole plant foods or
not, but it can lead to healing and empower you
to realize I don't just have to depend on doctors
or medicine necessarily, that there's things
I can do. And then the final one was the one
you and I talked about earlier, kind of a spiritual
component or a sense that I'm connected with
all of life. Again, once I'm not eating animals,
I can see that there's this connectedness between
me and all of nature. So I would say, you know,
depending on the person you're talking to, any
of those could be an entry point. If someone's
sort of spiritual, you know, you could share
how people have experienced spiritual deepening
through not eating animals. And if they're into,
you know, compassion, you know, that would be
an entry point. If they have health issues, that
could be another entry point. I think it's really,
it's helpful to meet people where they're at.
Because if we just kind of go on and on about
something that doesn't interest a person, I don't
know, sort of connecting with them and then going
from there. I think we hear a lot about, you
know, the health argument for veganism. I am
of the opinion, you know, I don't usually invite
people in the health space on my podcast because
I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a dietician.
I don't know if what they're saying is, you know,
accurate or not. But at a bare minimum, becoming
vegan has made me focus more on nutrition, educate
myself. I used to eat whatever came around. And
now, since I became vegan, I learned how to cook.
I learned about how to have balanced meals. All
of that in supplement. And also there's the fact
that vegan food, even the junk vegan food, is
not as horrible as the junk non -vegan food.
So take even meat, for instance. There are traces
of excrements in meat. There are hormones in
meat. There are, you know, antibiotics in meat
and even antibiotic -resistant bacteria in meat.
Like, you don't need to be a dietician to know
that this is bad for you. You should not be consuming
that. You should not know. specific things about
cholesterol levels and protein intake or whatever
to understand that this is dangerous and zoonotic
diseases too. This is more of a public health
argument than individual consumption, but still
a very important point. The rest that you brought
up, I haven't seen many, if any, activists use
those benefits to sell the vegan lifestyle. I
mean, for instance, the tribe part. Let's make
it, you know, veganism. Let's make it a social
group that you can join instead of, you know,
let me... show you all of that horrible footage.
I mean, that's a strategy. That's a tactic that
I haven't seen many activists, if not any, again,
use it. You mentioned also the compassion, deepening
the compassion one. This would be very interesting
to explore with prisoners or there are all sorts
of programs that can be utilized as vehicles
for this message where the whole goal is to really
re -socialize certain people and we're already
using animals as a tool for that with zootherapy
with for instance prisoners um so why not you
know bring veganism in in that space um so yeah
i i was really excited to go through um those
benefits for that reason and yeah so what do
you think of all of that i'll let you speak i
just had a thought so yeah like i think Whatever
the reason that someone gets curious, it often
then opens them to learning more beyond. So I
don't think we have to feel that we have to invite
people in just one way and have that be the only
way. Or like if someone becomes vegan for health,
that they're not going to also be compassionate
for animals. Some don't, but there's a lot of,
you know, first of all, they're eating less animals,
you know, if they're even if. They're not fully
awakened to that piece yet. But I just found
a large number, whatever their reason was for
entering the door, that they started to learn
all the other benefits and reasons for doing
this over time. And it seemed that people that
had more reasons for it were even more committed
to it. So definitely. whatever way we want to
introduce them in. And for some people, the positives
are going to be the way they're going to be more
interested. An interesting book that I'm just
starting to read now, I haven't gotten very far
into it, but it's a new book, Hungry Beautiful
Animals by Professor Halteman. He's a professor
of philosophy. Grand Rapids, Michigan. And he'd
probably be great to be on this podcast. But
his is about the joyful case for being vegan
after trying for many years to, like many of
us, try to share the more negatives, you know,
like what this is what happens to animals, this
is the atrocities. He was finding that, I think,
in his teaching and other things that that wasn't
landing as well as when he actually taught about
the beauty of animals and taught about how complex
and interesting they are and started to open
people up to more positive aspects that then
would lead to their interest and curiosity. And
so I think that's sort of my way of thinking.
I'm approaching it a little differently. He's
a philosophy professor. I'm a psychologist. So
mine is more about how do we grow and benefit
personally when we honor our values and our compassion.
So for some people, that entry point is going
to be more appealing than hearing the negative
things that happen to animals. And it's not that
that doesn't need to be known, but sometimes
people shut down. You know, we humans don't like
to suffer. And so people shut down when something
is overwhelming to them. And they may not take
it in or they may get defensive. And so it's
not always as effective as we'd like to share.
the atrocities that happen to animals. I know
that I've done that before and I can't say that
I led to any change through that. But when I
share the benefits in my life and why it matters
to me, I do get more curiosity from people that
want to know more. So I think we each have our
own way. And so I'm not going to, I think there's
a place for people approaching things in different
ways. It's maybe most important that we find
the way that is aligned for us, that we can share
it and hopefully inspire others. Well, I love
the win -win -win model. So it's a win for me,
it's a win for you, and it's a win for the general
public too, our third party. Now, if you identify
solitude as a struggle in society, as a solution
to join your local vegan community, vegan club,
then it's really a win -win -win situation. It's
a win for you. You know, you're finding a community,
you're breaking that solitude issue. It's a win
for the cause and it's a win for animals. and
society as a whole. So why not explore that?
It's weird because people always compare veganism
and the animal cause as a social justice movement.
And I'm thinking about it more and more, not
as a social justice movement, but as... as we
discussed earlier, as a religion. And religions,
which is a good thing for us, have had lots of
success in gaining members and influence. And
so maybe we should stop thinking about it as
a social justice movement and more as a religion
that we're trying to spread. Just having this
conversation, I started thinking, was there ever
a campaign to go and knock at people's door and
do the kind of thing that Jehovah's Witnesses
do, like with a pamphlet? I feel like that could
be very impactful. please look at all the benefits
you would get from joining this vegan cult. And
yeah, that's invigorating to see that there is
someone thinking about other things than protests
and boycotting and all of that. Yeah, I mean,
it's interesting the way you're putting it. But
inviting people in to learn more and sharing
how it does benefit them. I mean, there is something
to that. And as people learn more, then they
can expand their reasons, you know, for why this
matters. But sometimes it's just entering in
and also, like you say, having a supportive community,
which means I think one thing as vegans, we have
to be more accepting of people's journeys. as
you mentioned, there is a lot of recidivism,
you know, where people might start the journey.
But what they find is a lot of people that are
not vegan anymore, there's a certain percentage,
like half or so, that want to try it again. So
it's just sort of, I think we have to be a little
bit more open to letting people in and not just
making it a closed club, you know, where you
have to be perfect or you're out or, you know,
it's just... We have to support people because
people do have challenges. And how do we support
them through those challenges and make this an
inviting community to be part of? Yes, I mean,
if you want to get into it, it's one of my biggest
interests because I've seen groups under the
vegan umbrella who have been kind of excluded.
For instance, people who are leaning right, you
know, like conservatives, people who are deeply
religious or find that, you know, their veganism
has sense through a religious lens, you know,
Christian people, all of that, who tend to be
also pro -life. And, you know, that ties back
to the conservative part. Now, recently, Jewish
vegans, many of them because of... this whole
political thing have felt like they are no longer
welcome in a movement that defines itself as
more on the left and as a political movement,
not so much as a spiritual, religious group.
So yeah, how do we show that we have more in
common than... divides us and that we should
prioritize again and again the animals over our
tribalism yes yeah yeah I mean you're naming
something obviously there's a lot going on culturally
and you know and certainly in the US but also
beyond right now just different divisions and
it's not surprising it would also show up in
The vegan community, just because, you know,
these things that are going on beyond us tend
to show up in smaller communities, too. But you're
right. If we can look more to what unites us,
what our shared values are, how, you know, trying
to understand one another better and certainly
wanting to be inclusive. I mean, yeah, some of
us like being individualist, but I think we all.
want a vegan world. And so we're going to have
to invite in people that are different than us
for that to happen. We're going to have to learn
to navigate different views on other areas. And
so, yeah, how do we become welcoming and inclusive
and navigate where we do have differences? Yeah,
I was having this conversation recently as a
vegan. People I deeply love and care about in
my life eat meat and don't care much about the
animal cause. I haven't censored them and turned
my back to them because of that. I haven't isolated
myself from them because they don't share my
vegan outlook on life. And in fact, I found value
in being a constant presence in their life and
I've seen throughout the years that they have
changed just from me being there and pointing
out hey did you know that this is not good for
you because and if I wasn't there that change
would not have been you know incited so then
I'm always surprised to see vegans separating
themselves from fellow vegans for things that
I found to be very minor differences. How strange
is that? And I feel like it's a psychological
thing that is shared with many movements that
we're much more, you know, harsh with people.
of our tribe than of others, you know, those
who are outside the tribe. So yeah, how do you
explain that? Yeah. These are tough things to
sometimes understand. But I think for many of
us, we tend to want to protect ourselves in some
way. It may not be conscious, but we think by
closing off to people who have views that feel
different or threatening. Sometimes we're, I
don't know, we just seem to cut, you know, many
of us seem to cut off from dialogue around those
issues. And then, you know, and I'm trying to
think in terms of myself when I feel that what's
going on, you know, and perhaps am I feeling.
Someone might try to sway me to their point of
view, you know, when I don't want to be, or am
I feeling like they're not going to understand
mine? Or is it, you know, it seems like our culture
has moved away from being able to dialogue about
tough issues of disagreement. And some people
I do think have that gift and that skill, but
I do think it's more of a skill set that people
have to actually work at. I think of, for example,
nonviolent communication techniques by Marshall
Rosenberg, where you're really trying to attend
to what is the feeling that, you know, is beneath
what someone is saying. You're going a little
deeper with understanding where people are coming
from. You don't have to agree with them, but
you can say, you know, I hear that you're feeling
this. I can hear that you're thinking this and
validate that you hear them without it. necessarily.
And so I think this is a lost art or skill in
our culture. You don't see it modeled in, you
know, the media at all or very little, but it's
something we're going to need to kind of come
to, I think. I don't know, things are kind of
coming to a head with the way media and everything
else is these days. So I hope we as vegans can
learn that because I mean, we're vegan in part
because of compassion and a care for the well
-being of others. So can we extend that compassion
to others, even if we don't agree with them on
certain issues and just realize we're all trying
to find our way. We're all trying to find meaning.
We're all, we probably share a lot of the same
values underneath. Yes, definitely. I second
that. Which one of those benefits that you named
feels very meaningful to you personally? Gosh,
they all do in some way. Sorry, I need a sip
of water here. Yeah, they all do. And it's really
hard for me to narrow it down. But I think I've
always been a person that's been driven by wanting
a sense of purpose. So that is definitely one
that's coming through. I would say the other
would be compassion that those two right now
are the ones I'm thinking about the most. I've
always been a compassionate person. But I realized
that like many of us that that's been compartmentalized.
That I didn't look at, for example, the animals
that were part of my food. You know, I just,
like many of us, I thought that, you know, I
was socialized to believe I had to eat them.
You know, that I grew up in the Midwest. You
know, this is what you do. This is, you know,
this is how we do things. You just don't look
at it. You don't think about it. So for me, expanding
my natural compassion, that's been a big one.
And then through that, I think it's expanded
my sense of purpose. So those two have been really
meaningful for me. I've always felt purpose through
my work, but now it's led me to a more public
role than I guess I had before because it felt
like it mattered that much. And it's not that
what I did before didn't matter too, but it was
more private. It was working with people one
-on -one. Now I see like bringing those years
of experience. To help create a more compassionate,
connected world. That's just how I think of it,
where we feel more connected to ourselves, to
one another, to the sentient beings of our planet,
to the planet itself, to the universe, you know.
And that we have more compassion for ourselves
and for one another. And I don't see it as either
or, I see it as all and. Sorry to bring him up,
but... There's this guy called Jordan Peterson,
who is a top 10 anti -vegan people, vocal anti
-vegan out there. He always talks about meaning
and how it is important to gain meaning in one's
life. And he opposed that to... the pursuit of
happiness. He says that, you know, the pursuit
of happiness is very superficial and that we
should mostly focus on meaning and that happiness
will come, you know, as a symptom of a quest
for meaning. What do you make of that? And does
that relate to the anti -vegan part, or is that
just a more general view of his? Well, I feel
like I had to mention that he's incredibly anti
-vegan. He's one of those people who follow the
carnivorous diet. Yes, and he swears by it every
time he has a public appearance. He talks about
how bad it is to have this plant -based diet
and how you should be eating lots of meat. I
mean, we'll see how his health, you know, holds
up. Yeah, I would think that that's going to
be very hard on his cardiovascular system. But
he has lots of appeal. I mean, I certainly don't
agree with that part of his lifestyle, but that's,
you know, regarding the meaning and purpose,
you know, I do cite in my chapter on meaning
and purpose that there was this article about
differences between a happy life and a meaningful
life. And they looked at how the two relate and
they found there's some overlap that people who
feel a sense of meaning do tend to be happier
and vice versa. But there were also differences
in this particular research where people that
felt their life was meaningful, it could also
sometimes lead to more stress or more arguments.
And some things in worry, things like that. And
they speculated that that was because when something
really matters to you, you're willing to fight
for it. I mean, a lot of people can have meaning.
Obviously, people who we really disagree with
can feel a sense of meaning in what they're doing.
And so, I mean, I don't know that meaning is
good or bad necessarily in and of itself. I think
that's maybe why for me when I tied compassion
and meaning together, because for me, you know,
you could feel meaningful, I guess, just by taking
advantage of other people. And I don't know,
there could be meaning in ways that are not healthy
by most of our standards or not kind. But others
of us, maybe meaning is part of caring for others,
caring for the planet. caring for all sentient
beings. And so that's where I fall on that spectrum,
but not that I'm perfect in it. I guess we're
all growing and learning where our blind spots
are. And so, yeah, it's an interesting discussion
that I would imagine that maybe Hitler felt meaning,
you know, I don't know, but so I don't know that
meaning in and of itself is always something
we'd associate with. good psychological health
necessarily. It usually is, but that doesn't
mean in every case. Well, here's an unpopular
opinion. I feel like Jordan Peterson is not a
happy person, and I'm suspicious of that. I'm
sorry, but if you can't, you know, be happy in
your own life, how can you, you know, give me
advice on my life and guide me to a... a fruitful,
fulfilled life if you're this miserable person.
And I've never listened to him. Does he come
across as sort of unhappy? Yes, he comes across
as very frustrated and antagonistic. Yeah, well,
I'm with you. I think when we're looking at people
that we want to emulate, we want to see what
are the fruits of their... and their attitudes?
How does it make us feel when we listen to them?
You know, I mean, those things are things we
need to discern because right now there's a lot
of voices out there, right? I mean, and I don't
know all the answers. I struggle with, you know,
I struggle with holding the questions sometimes
and not knowing the answers. At the same time,
one thing that's really cool in my book, that
I love is that I quoted a lot of the people I
interviewed with their great experiences and
insights. And I just, you know, like what one
person said is, you know, veganism to them felt
like truth because it just, it felt like things
came together, like what they already knew that
compassion for all beings, we all, statistics
show that, you know, 85 % or more of Americans
believe animals should be treated compassionately,
you know, and yet we eat them. Some numbers are
even higher than that, you know, that people
feel like we should be compassionate to animals,
including farmed animals. But yet we eat them.
So it's just sort of when something shifts, we're
like, I don't just have to keep eating the way
I was taught to eat. I can go back to what actually
was probably more prevalent in the past when
people had gardens and, you know, grew their
own food more and just eat from the earth more
naturally. The processed foods, too, that, you
know, no animal had to suffer for them. And they're
also more sustainable for the planet. So there's
just this piece when all these pieces come together
that actually makes sense to us. So, yeah, there's
a lot of voices out there. And I guess we have
to discern which voices really resonate in our
hearts. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it is. kind
of our duty, at least in the communication space,
to find ways to respond to those vocal anti -vegans
and to give alternatives to people. So again,
he's very appealing, very popular. So, yeah,
we cannot just ignore him when he's so vocal
against veganism. And right now, I understand
that there's just more of a vocal group like
that these days, from what I understand. I don't
hear a lot of it myself, but I hear from other
people about it. And it seems like, yeah. And
some people have speculated. There was a podcast
I was listening to recently with someone who
is, sharing that she'd learned that some influencers,
you know, are even paid by the meat industry
or dairy industry to try to help. So I have no
idea about that. But there's certainly the meat
and dairy industry are big, and they have a lot
of lobbying dollars and money to influence things.
Do you have a way when, you know, once we have
nuggets of information related to psychology
that comes our way do you have a way to be critical
of them to filter them in in our lives um and
to i guess you know make the difference between
misinformation and uh what is accurate so for
instance for the meaning part um you brought
to my understanding a much more nuanced view
on you know meaning the quest for meaning in
one's life never thought of it this way but when
you came when you come face to face with that
kind of rhetoric related to psychology what should
be the first instinct are you asking like how
to make sense of what might be more accurate
or truthful or so for instance you know um i
said i'm not a dietitian not a nutritionist so
when i come you know face to face with facts
related to nutrition i always ask myself what
is the consensus what is the expert consensus
on on this aspect of nutrition and if there isn't
any if it's just one study in in the vacuum then
i know you know what to make of it um so is there
a version of that for psychology yeah i would
say for a lot of things there are you know and
i think you know probably with the nutrition
piece you've probably found some trusted resources
that that do their own research and vetting,
you know, for example, for me, I find that the
Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine
and or Dr. Greger, you know, they're both, you
know, nutritionfacts .org. Those are, you know,
and then I can do my own research too, to some
degree and look at things. So yeah, I would say
in psychology, it could be similar in that. A
lot of topics, there are articles and research
that look at different things. It's not as easy
to pinpoint sometimes because psychological concepts
can be a little bit harder sometimes to grasp.
But maybe just what you said a little bit ago
is, is it nuanced? You know, most things in psychology
are not always cut and dried. And, you know,
there most often is nuance. And so it's whatever
it is being shared in a way that, allows for
nuance that allows for difference that allows
to make sense of something not in a black and
white cut and dried way but in a way that actually
fits the kind of messiness of our humanity and
the diversity of our humanity so so and there
you know there certainly is research out there
and I suppose, for example, the American Psychological
Association might be a resource for some research
articles and things like that. But yeah, I think
the nuance piece could be a big part of it. And
someone not just being driven by their own ego
to have to prove a point, but actually wanting
to know what is the deeper truth here. We have
you as a voice to remind us that. Being vegan
is not about removing things from your life.
It's also about gaining things and gaining new
perspectives, new friends, new meaning and new
forms of joy. You know, it's often people, I
think, deep down can feel threatened when we
tell them, you know, become vegan. And they think
of it as... well, you're trying to take away
my way of life, trying to take away my habits,
my this and that. And actually, it's not the
case. I'm trying to give you something, which
is, you know, much healthier perspective, I think,
for activists to have. And also for vegans who...
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And I was just thinking,
you know, even though, for example, vegans know
that veganism is not about food per se. Food
can be the biggest obstacle for people because
we have to eat, you know? And so, and like you
say, it can be tied to our culture. It can be
tied to our upbringing and our memories. We have
emotional attachments to certain foods. And so
discovering that veganism is abundant in multiple
ways, you know, starting with the food. You know,
that many of us discover that actually our food
choices expand, really. I mean, I eat so much
more diversely and interestingly than I did before
I was vegan, where I just ate the same things
over and over again. And just now I try all different
kinds of spices and foods. And I like to cook
now. I didn't before. So it did open up my food
world and expanded it in ways that are wonderful.
But then it also expanded me beyond that, too,
you know. many other ways psychologically emotionally
spiritually socially do you find that um vegans
become more resilient to um the trials that life
um throws at us um you know for having done that
uh transformation for having grown our heart
and all of that yeah I definitely like to think
so. You know, again, I don't know that there
would be any hard studies that would know for
sure about that. But just the very foundation
of looking at our values, seeing that a choice
that we're making every day is not aligning,
going against what is the quote unquote societal
norm to eat and live in a way that is aligned,
and then being able to navigate the tough emotions.
Claire Mann calls it the burden of knowing, you
know, this burden of being aware of suffering
in a way that other people are still kind of
walled off from seeing or feeling. Learning to
navigate all of that, I would think, gives a
certain amount of resilience, and it certainly
can. And so that's where I think, you know, for
those vegans that might be struggling emotionally,
that... Finding ways to care for yourself, whether
it be the meditation that your last guest was
teaching about and certainly including that.
And then my book is filled with a lot of different
exercises that are kind of self -care exercises.
Each chapter has things that involve. There's
some guided meditations. There's other exercises.
Just having ways to care for yourself through
this because. you know, the better place that
you're in, you know, and it's okay that you have
tough emotions, that's understandable, but also
having a way to get through those emotions so
that you don't feel stuck in them. That's, I
think, so important for us on this vegan journey.
And some people might not struggle with the tough
emotions as much, you know, and others might.
And so just wherever you're at, having resources
and support. Wonderful. Angela, this has been
such a an amazing conversation. I feel like we
went everywhere. You ask some good questions,
you really do. Thank you. Well, I need to keep
the conversation interesting and also not take
away from the book. I don't want people to feel
like reading the book is just a repeat of the
podcast they heard. So yes, it's a... It's an
exercise in communication. And yes, please get
the book. The book, again, is called The Vegan
Transformation. You need to nourish and inspire
yourself with new perspectives on what it means
to be an activist for veganism. and live your
veganism in a healthy manner. And this book,
again, supported with studies and nuanced takes,
get you there. I really appreciate your time,
Angela. Did you want to add something before
we end the conversation? No, I mean... nothing
that I can think of other than just, it was really
a pleasure to be here. And you, you asked really
deep questions that require, you know, a lot
of, a lot of thought, you know, that don't have
easy answers, but yet are really important to
reflect on and for us to think about in a deeper
way. And so I really appreciated the conversation
and, and just sending, you know, best wishes
to all listening. And, you know, certainly I
can be You'll probably share my contact information
in the notes about the episode, but at AngelaCrawfordPhD
.com if there's questions or somebody wants to
reach out. Yes. As I told people in the introduction,
please visit the episode notes for a link to
the book. And yes, contact Angela. She's available
and she's amazing. So thank you again, Angela.
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite
you to share this podcast with the vegans you
know. Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will
see you next Tuesday for a new episode.