WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.480 Hello everyone, you are listening to The Vegan 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:07.559 Report and this is a bonus episode. As you might 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:10.960 know, this movement is a big fan of debating 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:16.160 non -vegans. However, debates around major deciding 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.859 strategy questions on how to progress forward 00:00:19.859 --> 00:00:23.879 as a movement are much less discussed. Well, 00:00:23.940 --> 00:00:26.899 for today, I am happy to present you with an 00:00:26.899 --> 00:00:30.719 exception to this rule. What you are about to 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:34.799 listen is a clash of minds about cultivated meat, 00:00:35.380 --> 00:00:38.520 an industry worth billions of dollars that promises 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:44.100 vegans a future without factory farming. I invited 00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:47.780 one of the debaters, John Sanbonmatsu, for a 00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:50.560 conversation about the behind the scenes of this 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.350 debate and the release of his new book. Don't 00:00:54.350 --> 00:00:58.450 miss our talk which is episode 79 of the podcast. 00:00:59.590 --> 00:01:04.150 And an enormous thank you to United Poultry Concerns 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:07.510 who organized this debate and gave me the green 00:01:07.510 --> 00:01:11.790 light to release it as a podcast episode. They 00:01:11.790 --> 00:01:14.849 are an impactful non -profit that deserves your 00:01:14.849 --> 00:01:18.430 support. Visit the episode notes to access their 00:01:18.430 --> 00:01:22.000 website. and the original YouTube video of the 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:51.400 debate they recorded. We're going to call it 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.200 cell -based meat. That's what we have as a panel 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.799 determined that we all can agree on to call it 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:04.019 at this point. Yes, this is the title. It has 00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:06.540 a lot of other names. There's cultured meat, 00:02:06.780 --> 00:02:10.080 clean meat, in vitro meat, slaughter -free meat, 00:02:10.300 --> 00:02:13.020 lab -grown meat, alt meat, I heard recently. 00:02:13.180 --> 00:02:18.180 That was an interesting one. So, and what we're 00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:21.740 talking about, we're not talking about products 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:24.900 that are out now like Beyond Burger and Impossible 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:28.900 Meat, where it's a plant -based product that 00:02:28.900 --> 00:02:32.520 mimics meat. That's not what we're talking about 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.759 at all. Those are products on the market now 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:42.639 and they are made. buy from plants and mimic 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.120 meat in ways that the texture and everything 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:48.219 is very similar. What we're talking about is 00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:50.659 a product that's not on the market yet, doesn't 00:02:50.659 --> 00:02:56.319 exist yet. And it's taking cells from living 00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:03.340 animals and growing those cells in a nutrient 00:03:03.340 --> 00:03:10.460 -rich liquid type thing that, and I'm sure they'll 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:13.580 be able to describe it a lot better than me. 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:17.819 But this cultured medium, it provides nutrients, 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:20.199 there's like salt, sugar, amino acids, those 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:24.680 kinds of things. I think they use a scaffolding 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.759 that periodically moves so it mimics muscle movement 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.159 to develop and it can develop into different 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:35.530 types of. Muscle cells fat cells tissue to create 00:03:35.530 --> 00:03:38.490 meat like products different cuts of meat if 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:43.370 you will so So that's what we're talking about 00:03:43.370 --> 00:03:46.550 okay, just so we're very clear and we'll and 00:03:46.550 --> 00:03:50.210 we'll get even more information about that and 00:03:50.210 --> 00:03:52.409 Another thing that I want to just touch on and 00:03:52.409 --> 00:03:55.509 I think it's really a cool thing about this is 00:03:55.509 --> 00:04:00.150 that? Everyone here up on this panel I think 00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:05.870 can agree on the big picture of, we all want 00:04:05.870 --> 00:04:10.129 to see a world where no animal suffers at human 00:04:10.129 --> 00:04:13.789 hands. Can we all agree on that? Yes. We all 00:04:13.789 --> 00:04:15.870 agree on that, and that's great. That's awesome. 00:04:15.990 --> 00:04:21.129 That is a beautiful thing. So what we're debating 00:04:21.129 --> 00:04:26.769 is ideas, strategies, tactics, these kinds of 00:04:26.769 --> 00:04:30.930 things. So we're not debating that we want a 00:04:30.930 --> 00:04:36.189 vegan world. We all want that. So just to keep 00:04:36.189 --> 00:04:40.610 that in mind as we go forward, this is really 00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:47.470 a playing of ideas, a debating of strategy and 00:04:47.470 --> 00:04:51.970 tactic and not like attack on character or individuals 00:04:51.970 --> 00:04:57.589 or organizations. It's really about the tactics. 00:04:58.089 --> 00:05:02.949 Just a thought on that. And I'm personally in 00:05:02.949 --> 00:05:05.490 the perfect place here, being right in the middle, 00:05:05.829 --> 00:05:10.209 because I am right in the middle on this issue. 00:05:11.089 --> 00:05:15.689 When I first heard about it, I think that I reacted 00:05:15.689 --> 00:05:19.389 like I would say probably most vegan animal rights 00:05:19.389 --> 00:05:22.790 activists react. My reaction was, ew, I'd never 00:05:22.790 --> 00:05:25.370 eat it, but great if it's going to save animals. 00:05:26.740 --> 00:05:29.259 Generally, that's my reaction and I think most 00:05:29.259 --> 00:05:32.800 people's initial reaction. So I was for it, I 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.259 was fine with it. But something, I don't know, 00:05:36.459 --> 00:05:39.019 just was not sitting right with me. Every time 00:05:39.019 --> 00:05:43.180 I thought about it a little deeper. There were 00:05:43.180 --> 00:05:45.939 questions that were coming up in my mind, and 00:05:45.939 --> 00:05:48.819 then suddenly I was seeing that other activists 00:05:48.819 --> 00:05:51.600 and vegans were having the same kind of concerns 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.339 and questions. And I was like, ah, okay, so I'm 00:05:54.339 --> 00:05:59.839 not alone. That's interesting. And so I think 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:02.680 that's why we're here today, is to explore this. 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.860 I haven't made any kind of decision. I feel like 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:08.420 I need way more information, and that's why I'm 00:06:08.420 --> 00:06:12.740 very excited that we're doing this. So, you know, 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:14.600 just a little background, I'm sure we'll get 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:16.800 more. There's numerous cell -based meat companies 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:20.040 that are not necessarily in production now, but 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:22.399 in the research and development phase trying 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:26.379 to get this product happening. We have in the 00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:30.040 U .S. Memphis Meats, Mosa Meats, Was Hampton 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:32.699 Creek is now Just, you know, Just Egg, Just Mayo. 00:06:34.180 --> 00:06:37.160 They create plant -based foods, but they're also 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.160 looking into cell -based meats. Finless Foods, 00:06:41.259 --> 00:06:46.459 I love the name, is a seafood plant or cell -based 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:51.980 meat company that's also planning to produce 00:06:51.980 --> 00:06:56.819 seafood, cell -based seafood. And across the 00:06:56.819 --> 00:07:00.160 world, we're seeing it as well. In Israel, we've 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:04.040 got super meat, future meat technologies, meet 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:09.500 the future. Another good name So, you know, so 00:07:09.500 --> 00:07:14.720 it's really interesting it's it's very much Incredibly 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.740 prevalent and even big ag is getting in the game. 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:21.980 They are Seeing a potential here. We've got Tyson 00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:24.939 Cargill. I'm sure others are looking into it 00:07:24.939 --> 00:07:28.170 are investing in it So it's fascinating. And 00:07:28.170 --> 00:07:32.310 there's also, we're already starting to see legislation 00:07:32.310 --> 00:07:35.509 around it, around the labeling, what's it gonna 00:07:35.509 --> 00:07:38.189 be called? The meat industry is getting a little 00:07:38.189 --> 00:07:42.350 concerned about this. There's a piece of legislation 00:07:42.350 --> 00:07:44.949 going around Washington State right now that 00:07:44.949 --> 00:07:48.110 would actually make it a crime to sell cell -based 00:07:48.110 --> 00:07:55.689 meat. It's fascinating. It's basically, of course, 00:07:56.679 --> 00:07:59.920 Their line is that we don't know if it's safe, 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:02.100 it's also new, all of that kind of thing. But 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:04.379 of course, it's the meat industry getting scared. 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.720 So it's fascinating, fascinating. So we're going 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.459 to get into it all today. I am going to introduce 00:08:11.459 --> 00:08:17.420 all the speakers, I think, right now. And then 00:08:17.420 --> 00:08:21.240 how it's going to work is that each speaker is 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:26.800 going to have a 12 -minute introduction Some 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.199 are going to use PowerPoint. Twelve minute introduction 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:32.940 just to get us all on the same page really understanding 00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:36.360 the arguments. Then I'm going to start asking 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.679 some questions and we're going to just open it 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:42.740 up and go back and forth. So I'm going to introduce 00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:48.000 everyone first over here. This is the pro side, 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:52.139 the four side over here and the against. So you 00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:55.669 know. What's going on in Who's Who? Bruce Friedrich 00:08:55.669 --> 00:09:01.649 has been a long time activist. He is the executive 00:09:01.649 --> 00:09:04.789 director of the Good Food Institute. That's a 00:09:04.789 --> 00:09:07.070 5 -1 -C -3 nonprofit that promotes innovative 00:09:07.070 --> 00:09:10.169 alternatives to industrially produced animal 00:09:10.169 --> 00:09:13.669 foods. Bruce has pinned opinion pieces for USA 00:09:13.669 --> 00:09:15.850 Today, The Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, 00:09:16.110 --> 00:09:19.309 many other publications. He's a popular speaker. 00:09:20.169 --> 00:09:24.750 at college campuses, he's presented at top universities, 00:09:25.009 --> 00:09:28.009 Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT. He's 00:09:28.009 --> 00:09:30.669 co -authored two books, contributed chapters 00:09:30.669 --> 00:09:34.090 to six books, authored seven law review articles, 00:09:35.330 --> 00:09:40.529 and graduated from Georgetown Law, and also graduated 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:46.120 Pi Beta Kappa from Grinnell College. And he also 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.740 holds degrees at John Hopkins University and 00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:52.639 the London School of Economics, so quite a background. 00:09:53.460 --> 00:09:56.299 And I just saw him recently actually on CBS This 00:09:56.299 --> 00:10:00.320 Morning. I was watching my little, on the elliptical, 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:05.519 my little Morning CBS This Morning clips and 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:08.799 he was there giving an interview about vegan 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.320 seafood. So, Bruce is everywhere. That's awesome. 00:10:13.299 --> 00:10:17.500 Thank you for being here. Yeah. Okay, and then 00:10:17.500 --> 00:10:22.059 also on the pro side, we have Leah Garces. Am 00:10:22.059 --> 00:10:28.019 I saying it good? Yay! She is the new first female 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:36.480 president of Mercy for Animals. Yay! She was 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.460 the founder of compassion in world farming USA 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:43.200 and She's the author of a forthcoming book called 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.279 grilled turning adversaries into allies in the 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.200 fight to change the chicken industry She is an 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:50.659 animal advocate who has partnered with some of 00:10:50.659 --> 00:10:52.639 the largest food companies in the world with 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.580 a mission to end the exploitation of animals 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:57.700 for food Her work has been featured in many national 00:10:57.700 --> 00:11:00.039 and international media outlets including the 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:02.580 New York Times Washington Post BuzzFeed vice 00:11:03.659 --> 00:11:06.980 Chicago Tribune on and on. She's the contributing 00:11:06.980 --> 00:11:10.059 author to Huffington Post and Food Safety News. 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.080 Leah serves on the advisory board of Encompass 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.980 and Seattle Food Tech. And she's the mom of three 00:11:17.980 --> 00:11:23.279 incredible kids. All right. Only two? Okay. Well, 00:11:23.419 --> 00:11:29.179 he knows. He's met him. Okay. So, all right. 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:37.019 On the opposing side, we have, this is Vasile 00:11:37.019 --> 00:11:41.820 Staniskew. He has received his PhD in the Modern 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:43.980 Thought and Literature at Stanford University. 00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:46.679 So he was here with us at Stanford, but now he's 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:48.759 in Atlanta, Georgia. He is currently Assistant 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:52.059 Professor of Communication at Mercer University. 00:11:52.590 --> 00:11:55.169 His current research interests include locovorism, 00:11:55.409 --> 00:11:58.269 humane meat, invasive species, the linkage between 00:11:58.269 --> 00:12:01.590 food and colonialism, and the intersection between 00:12:01.590 --> 00:12:05.169 environmentalism and animal studies. Vasile is 00:12:05.169 --> 00:12:08.730 the co -senior editor of Critical Animal Studies 00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:11.169 book series and the former co -editor of the 00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:13.610 Journal of Critical Animal Studies. He's the 00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:15.809 author of over 20 peer -reviewed publications 00:12:15.809 --> 00:12:17.690 on critical animal studies, and his research 00:12:17.690 --> 00:12:19.950 has been recognized by the Woods Institute for 00:12:19.950 --> 00:12:21.970 the Environment, Minding Animals International, 00:12:21.929 --> 00:12:24.950 the Andrew Mellon Foundation, the Culture and 00:12:24.950 --> 00:12:28.129 Animals Foundation, and the list goes on. So 00:12:28.129 --> 00:12:31.250 thank you for being here. All right, and then 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:34.909 finally over here in his wonderful Renaissance 00:12:34.909 --> 00:12:41.309 man coat. I love this coat. Fabulous. The postmodern 00:12:41.309 --> 00:12:47.850 prince. Yes. So John Sanbanmatsu, PhD, is the 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:50.909 associate professor of philosophy at, I can never 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:54.659 say it. Worcester. I always want to say Worcestersh. 00:12:54.899 --> 00:13:00.120 It's not. Polytech Institute in Massachusetts. 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:04.259 John's work in critical animal studies probes 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:07.559 the nature of speciesism as a mode of production, 00:13:07.779 --> 00:13:09.899 particularly as it intersects with capitalism. 00:13:10.669 --> 00:13:12.909 His articles and essays have appeared on Huffington 00:13:12.909 --> 00:13:15.870 Post, Christian Science Monitor, and other venues. 00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:18.929 In addition, he's the editor of the book Critical 00:13:18.929 --> 00:13:21.730 Theory and Animal Liberation, and the author 00:13:21.730 --> 00:13:26.669 of The Postmodern Prince. At present, he is at 00:13:26.669 --> 00:13:28.929 work on a new book, which I'm very excited about 00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:31.269 and can't wait to read. It's called The Omnivore's 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:37.309 Deception. Yes. Great name, right? Great title. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.519 about the ecological crisis, the myth of humane 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.179 meat, and the troubling nature of our relationship 00:13:44.179 --> 00:13:48.039 with other animals. Okay, what a fantastic panel 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:56.919 we have. Let's give them all a hand. Okay, so 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:58.899 we are going to have the pro side go first. Who's 00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:03.879 going to go first? Bruce? Bruce is up. All right, 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:07.279 so... Thank you very much Hope for the introduction. 00:14:07.460 --> 00:14:09.860 You did give a lot of my talk just for the record. 00:14:12.179 --> 00:14:14.480 And thank you Voss and John for agreeing to do 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:20.519 this and Karen. No, thank you Leah for agreeing 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:23.539 to do this. And there's Karen, thank you for 00:14:23.539 --> 00:14:26.179 having us. Thank you for working with Hope to 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:29.639 organize the conference. It is a delight and 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:31.620 an honor to be here with all of you chatting 00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:35.820 about. why Leah and I believe, so I was thanking 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:38.940 everybody on behalf of both of us, Leah, why 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.659 Leah and I believe that, what's the title of 00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:43.460 the resolution? Resolved, cell -based meat is 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.779 good for animals. So I want to start by just 00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:48.559 talking about a couple of things that I think 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.659 most of you, most of us know, but that I think 00:14:51.659 --> 00:14:54.179 are useful as sort of background for the conversation 00:14:54.179 --> 00:14:57.220 that we're about to have. I think folks here 00:14:57.220 --> 00:15:00.509 probably know that animal agriculture, causes 00:15:00.509 --> 00:15:03.870 more climate change than all forms of transportation 00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:07.009 combined. So then all of the trains and the planes 00:15:07.009 --> 00:15:09.570 and the cars and the trucks, animal agriculture 00:15:09.570 --> 00:15:14.570 is responsible for about 14 .5 % of climate change. 00:15:15.789 --> 00:15:18.720 At GFI we're talking more and more. There we 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.279 go. About antibiotic resistance bacteria. According 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.340 to a report from the UK government a couple of 00:15:24.340 --> 00:15:27.220 years ago, antibiotic resistant bacteria is going 00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:30.519 to kill more people than cancer by 2050. It'll 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:32.600 be killing 10 million people a year by 2050. 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:35.480 Will be costing the global economy $10 trillion. 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:39.059 And then I'm guessing if you didn't see this, 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.259 that you'll be surprised to hear that all of 00:15:41.259 --> 00:15:43.419 you who oppose slaughterhouses, it's actually 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:47.779 about 47 % of Americans also. oppose slaughterhouses. 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:49.840 Now, the meat industry read about this, and they 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:52.240 were absolutely flabbergasted. And they realized 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.480 it was a group called the Sentience Institute 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.860 that had released their report. And that's an 00:15:56.860 --> 00:15:59.980 animal rights think tank, the Sentience Institute. 00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:02.620 So they picked a researcher at Oklahoma State 00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:06.059 University, a hand -picked ag researcher at Oklahoma 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:08.419 State University, and said, you know, prove these 00:16:08.419 --> 00:16:11.389 vegans wrong. And he ran the numbers and he came 00:16:11.389 --> 00:16:14.750 up with the exact same number. 47 % of Americans 00:16:14.750 --> 00:16:18.750 want to ban slaughterhouses. And yet, when surveys 00:16:18.750 --> 00:16:22.929 are actually done, what we find is that 98 % 00:16:22.929 --> 00:16:25.490 of Americans continue to eat meat. So we see 00:16:25.490 --> 00:16:29.169 numbers like 5 % vegetarian, 7 % vegetarian, 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:33.590 2 % vegan or whatever. Once Fawnalytics actually 00:16:33.590 --> 00:16:36.549 asked people in the last month, what products 00:16:36.549 --> 00:16:39.019 have you not eaten? What they determined was 00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:41.179 that two out of three vegetarians had eaten fish 00:16:41.179 --> 00:16:44.399 or chicken in the last month so not vegetarian 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.580 and This is what meat consumption looks like 00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:49.840 in the United States and those of you who are 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.120 attentive to the small bird the small animals 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.279 as opposed to the large animals will also realize 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.399 that this graph for the United States is similar 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.200 to the graph globally, so Although it looks like 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.579 meat consumption is skyrocketing on the previous 00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:07.880 slide, and it looks like meat consumption is 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.440 fairly stagnant since 1970 on this slide, because 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.339 chicken consumption has skyrocketed, even as 00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:17.299 beef consumption has somewhat fallen, the actual 00:17:17.299 --> 00:17:20.220 number of animals slaughtered has gone up from 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:22.339 somewhere on the order of 5 billion animals per 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:26.400 year to almost 10 billion animals per year. And 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.599 in the United States alone, we eat about 100 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:32.730 million pigs, about 40 million cows and 9 billion 00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:35.609 chickens. It's literally 250 chickens for every 00:17:35.609 --> 00:17:40.230 cow, 100 chickens for every pig. 2018, according 00:17:40.230 --> 00:17:42.890 to the USDA, was the highest per capita meat 00:17:42.890 --> 00:17:46.049 consumption in US history. USDA says that in 00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:49.190 2019, per capita meat consumption is going to 00:17:49.190 --> 00:17:55.859 be even higher. All that despite the revolution 00:17:55.859 --> 00:17:57.940 almost 50 years ago. This is the book that turned 00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:00.920 me vegan in 1987. So I'm going on 32 years of 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:06.299 veganism. So the book that started. Thank you. 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:08.559 So the book that started a revolution in the 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.119 way that Americans eat. Since that revolution 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.359 started almost 50 years ago, we are now eating 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:16.960 annually about 5 billion additional animals. 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.420 I wish the revolution had been more successful. 00:18:20.380 --> 00:18:22.599 20 years ago this year, I put this video together, 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.039 Meet Your Meat. It's now been seen by literally 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.039 millions of people. Ten years ago, I put together 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.920 the glass walls video, which was narrated by 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:33.859 Paul McCartney. And I just want to underline 00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:38.740 again, this is what's happening with meat consumption. 00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:43.079 Number of animals since 1996, it's about two 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.180 billion additional animals every single year. 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:51.819 And globally, we're expected to need 70 % more 00:18:51.819 --> 00:18:55.940 meat. by the year 2050. So hopefully people listened 00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:58.839 to Karen's presentation a moment ago. Nobody 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:01.140 paints a picture of what animal suffering looks 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:03.279 like better than Karen Davis paints a picture 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:11.640 of what animal suffering looks like. But chickens 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.240 on these farms, as Karen illustrated, every single 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.039 moment of their lives is categorized by abject 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:20.539 misery. poultry scientists at the University 00:19:20.539 --> 00:19:23.059 of Arkansas said that if a human baby grew as 00:19:23.059 --> 00:19:25.319 quickly as a modern broiler chicken She would 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:28.299 weigh more than 600 pounds by the time she was 00:19:28.299 --> 00:19:33.420 one year old 600 pounds every moment of these 00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:37.059 animals lives is categorized by unmitigated misery 00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:41.140 So we need to be very laser focused on asking 00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:43.920 the question if I were a hen in one of these 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.259 battery cages If I were a chicken in one of these 00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:51.039 broiler sheds What would I want my advocates 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:55.420 to be doing and supporting? So Chatham House, 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:57.740 the Royal Institute of International Affairs 00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:01.900 is the foremost think tank in Europe. About three 00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:04.099 years ago, they were looking at the climate issue 00:20:04.099 --> 00:20:08.000 and they said, it is a scientific impossibility 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.480 that the governments of the world meet their 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.279 obligations under the Paris Climate Agreement 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:14.220 to keep climate change under two degrees Celsius 00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:18.799 by 2050. A scientific impossibility. unless animal 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.200 product consumption goes down. The Chinese government 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.579 rose to the, yeah, it's good, right? The Chinese 00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:28.779 government rose to the challenge in 2015. They 00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:31.339 said we are going to cut our meat consumption 00:20:31.339 --> 00:20:34.400 in half by 2030. What do you think's happened 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.339 to Chinese meat consumption since 2015? Yeah, 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:40.579 it's skyrocketing. It's absolutely skyrocketing. 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.740 It seems to me, that what we have been doing 00:20:44.740 --> 00:20:47.640 for 50 years or 20 years or 10 years or whatever, 00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:51.480 it's important. We need to change the zeitgeist. 00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:53.420 We need to educate people. We need to be a voice 00:20:53.420 --> 00:20:56.279 for animals. And I'm not advocating that anybody 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.180 change what it is that they're focusing on or 00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:01.880 what it is that they're working on. But it certainly 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:03.700 seems to me that we should be looking at, we 00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:05.500 should be using all the tools in our toolkit. 00:21:06.099 --> 00:21:08.900 So at GFI, we think this is the tool of choice. 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:16.650 Ben and Jerry's vegan ice cream Who here likes 00:21:16.650 --> 00:21:20.369 Ben and Jerry's? All right a couple of people 00:21:20.369 --> 00:21:22.470 are you know don't probably don't like them because 00:21:22.470 --> 00:21:24.289 Unilever bought them, but almost everybody raised 00:21:24.289 --> 00:21:27.329 their hand And the reason you raised your hand 00:21:27.329 --> 00:21:30.329 is that Ben and Jerry's tastes amazing Right 00:21:30.329 --> 00:21:32.250 everybody nobody thought that's not healthy. 00:21:32.509 --> 00:21:35.029 You know everybody thought it tastes amazing 00:21:35.029 --> 00:21:39.150 It's reasonably priced That's what you were focused 00:21:39.150 --> 00:21:43.170 on and in fact 100 % of the world Thinks about 00:21:43.170 --> 00:21:45.109 taste and price when they're thinking about when 00:21:45.109 --> 00:21:47.430 they're making their dietary choices even at 00:21:47.430 --> 00:21:50.410 Whole Foods Even at the co -op you look at what 00:21:50.410 --> 00:21:53.250 people are buying like these are the two dichotomous 00:21:53.250 --> 00:21:55.990 factors of food choice But doesn't taste at least 00:21:55.990 --> 00:21:58.329 acceptable. Nobody's gonna eat it. You can't 00:21:58.329 --> 00:22:01.230 afford it. You're not gonna eat it And then convenience 00:22:01.230 --> 00:22:03.029 is also important. If you can't find it, you're 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:04.849 not gonna eat it I actually use this slide in 00:22:04.849 --> 00:22:06.410 Mexico and everybody just sort of looked at me 00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:08.359 like We don't know what this Ben and Jerry's 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:10.960 thing is. So the slide didn't go over well, which 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.400 underlines the idea that no matter how awesome 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:15.660 a food is, if you can't find it, you're not going 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:20.039 to eat it. But how do we apply the Ben and Jerry's 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:24.420 trifecta to food? One way we do it is we grow 00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:27.619 meat directly from cells. Because for the vast 00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:29.960 majority of people, they think meat tastes great. 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:32.529 They're not eating it because they want to see 00:22:32.529 --> 00:22:35.109 animals slaughtered. 47 % of them, all of whom 00:22:35.109 --> 00:22:37.869 know slaughterhouses are essential to meat, still 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:39.950 think slaughterhouses should be banned, remarkably. 00:22:41.269 --> 00:22:43.869 Nobody is a fan of causing more climate change. 00:22:44.029 --> 00:22:46.369 Nobody is a fan of factory farms. Nobody is a 00:22:46.369 --> 00:22:50.210 fan of slaughterhouses. We all have loved ones 00:22:50.210 --> 00:22:52.490 who continue to eat meat, and they say things 00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:55.170 like, I don't want to know. Where else in your 00:22:55.170 --> 00:22:57.769 life do you not want to know? Where else is there 00:22:57.769 --> 00:22:59.470 this cognitive dissonance? There's something 00:22:59.470 --> 00:23:01.670 in human beings. I don't know if it's psychology 00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:04.329 or physiology or emotion or what, but there's 00:23:04.329 --> 00:23:07.509 something that causes a lot of people to want 00:23:07.509 --> 00:23:10.289 to continue to eat meat. And we can grow meat 00:23:10.289 --> 00:23:13.369 directly from cells. Take a biopsy the size of 00:23:13.369 --> 00:23:16.809 a sesame seed from a live living turkey and grow 00:23:16.809 --> 00:23:20.809 turkey meat in perpetuity for everybody. Seems 00:23:20.809 --> 00:23:22.670 to me if I'm a turkey on a factory farm, that's 00:23:22.670 --> 00:23:25.170 something I'm pretty excited about. So this is 00:23:25.170 --> 00:23:29.190 Memphis Meats cell -based clean. We call it clean 00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:32.029 meat oftentimes as a nod to clean energy. Clean 00:23:32.029 --> 00:23:33.829 energy is energy that's better for the environment. 00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:35.930 Clean meat is meat that's better for the environment. 00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:39.369 It's also just literally a cleaner product. That's 00:23:39.369 --> 00:23:44.789 a meatball. That's clean meat duck. And that's 00:23:44.789 --> 00:23:47.069 what clean meat will look like at scale. Your 00:23:47.069 --> 00:23:50.150 friendly neighborhood meat brewery, essentially. 00:23:51.619 --> 00:23:53.359 I'm going to spare you. Everybody in here knows 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:54.819 what a factory farm and a slaughterhouse looks 00:23:54.819 --> 00:23:57.099 like. Not this pretty. You know, Memphis Meats 00:23:57.099 --> 00:23:59.720 is planning on streaming their production on 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:02.220 the internet. Get boring after about 10 seconds, 00:24:02.259 --> 00:24:05.400 but it makes, I think, a critical point. So who's 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:07.940 excited about clean meat? Ingrid Newkirk is excited 00:24:07.940 --> 00:24:10.680 about clean meat, the president of PETA. Her 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.900 deepness, Sylvia Earle, the foremost living marine 00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:14.859 biologist, is excited about clean meat for its 00:24:14.859 --> 00:24:20.130 capacity to save our seas. GFI had a conference 00:24:20.130 --> 00:24:24.009 and we had at our conference we had USDA, ADM, 00:24:24.150 --> 00:24:27.210 Tyson Ventures, DFJ, Kraft Heinz. We had moderators 00:24:27.210 --> 00:24:28.910 from the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, 00:24:28.990 --> 00:24:31.250 Inc. magazine, Good Morning America. This is 00:24:31.250 --> 00:24:33.390 something that an animal rights conference is 00:24:33.390 --> 00:24:35.509 not going to bring these sorts of thinkers together. 00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:37.990 I love this quote from Tyson Ventures talking 00:24:37.990 --> 00:24:39.990 about how awesome he thought our conference was, 00:24:40.049 --> 00:24:42.950 how excited he was about it. As Hope mentioned, 00:24:43.569 --> 00:24:46.150 I know that John and Voss are planning to use 00:24:46.150 --> 00:24:49.029 this against us, but we can have that discussion 00:24:49.029 --> 00:24:54.630 at the discussion. Former CEO of Tyson Foods, 00:24:55.369 --> 00:24:57.730 the last sentence of the cover story about this 00:24:57.730 --> 00:24:59.690 guy, if we can make meat without the animal, 00:24:59.849 --> 00:25:03.410 why wouldn't we? Former CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, 00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:05.569 very excited about plant -based meat and clean 00:25:05.569 --> 00:25:07.769 meat, not because he cares about animals, but 00:25:07.769 --> 00:25:09.890 because he wants to feed the world high quality 00:25:09.890 --> 00:25:12.940 protein without the climate impact. Bill Gates, 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:15.259 very excited about the capacity to feed hundreds 00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:17.660 of millions of people in the developing world 00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:21.900 using clean meat. This is a slide that shows 00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:26.000 the clean meat investment landscape. So the first 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.480 clean meat company was incorporated in 2016. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:31.980 Clean meat companies, there are now more than 00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:33.900 a dozen of them that have raised a million dollars 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:36.920 or more. And then I'm going to just say a couple 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.220 of words about what the Good Food Institute does. 00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:42.779 And wow, 12 minutes goes fast. All right, so 00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:45.079 at the Good Food Institute, we have four programmatic 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:47.819 departments, science and technology, innovation, 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:50.119 corporate engagement, policy, and international 00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:52.180 engagement. International engagement is a multiplier. 00:25:52.900 --> 00:25:55.019 So science and technology, we're laying the groundwork 00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:57.099 for both plant -based meat and cell -based meat. 00:25:57.579 --> 00:26:00.240 Innovation department is starting companies, 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:02.259 among other things. Corporate engagement, we 00:26:02.259 --> 00:26:04.079 are actually meeting with Tyson and Smithfield 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.640 and Purdue and other companies. And policy, we 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.019 are inspiring governments, including the US government, 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:12.200 to put money into this space. Animal Charity 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:14.279 Evaluators has done an evaluation and ranked 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:17.500 us a top charity three years in a row. The last 00:26:17.500 --> 00:26:19.539 thing I want to say is this is not for you. We 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:21.579 don't care if you eat it. You're vegan. You're 00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:25.220 on our side already. It will save massive numbers 00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:27.039 of animals or at least has a very good prospect 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:29.599 to do so. The bar for the opposition is insanely 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.200 high. Think about the hens and the cages. And 00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:34.980 in 100 years, all meat is not even going to be 00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:37.220 thought of as an animal product any more than 00:26:37.220 --> 00:26:40.619 insulin is today. 1951, 10 ,000 pounds of pig 00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:43.720 pancreas to make a pound of insulin. We'd be 00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:45.119 having this debate and somebody would be saying, 00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:48.079 insulin is an animal product. We absolutely can't 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.440 go to synthetic insulin. If you want to learn 00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:53.059 more about GFI, you can find our annual report 00:26:53.059 --> 00:26:56.059 at gfi .org up slash 2018. You can go to gfi 00:26:56.059 --> 00:26:58.000 .org to get our bi -weekly newsletter. You can 00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.539 email me if you want our monthly highlights. 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:14.829 Thank you. I came here today to bring you three 00:27:14.829 --> 00:27:19.670 simple truths about in vitro meat simple truth 00:27:19.670 --> 00:27:25.289 number one in vitro meat harms the planet proponents 00:27:25.289 --> 00:27:28.049 of in vitro meat like to claim that it will help 00:27:28.049 --> 00:27:30.750 the planet however what they fail to mention 00:27:30.750 --> 00:27:34.529 is that the only peer -reviewed study, positive 00:27:34.529 --> 00:27:37.230 peer -reviewed study was both commissioned and 00:27:37.230 --> 00:27:40.630 funded exclusively by the in vitro meat industry, 00:27:41.009 --> 00:27:43.710 was published by a graduate student, and was 00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:46.930 based solely on a series of possible future thought 00:27:46.930 --> 00:27:49.849 experiments, assumptions which are premised on 00:27:49.849 --> 00:27:52.690 a series of technologies which currently do not 00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:56.289 exist and are unlikely to exist in the future. 00:27:56.710 --> 00:28:00.210 To provide one example among many, the study 00:28:00.210 --> 00:28:02.880 assumed that all in vitro meat would be grown 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:07.000 exclusively in cyanobacteria hydrostate, a type 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.740 of algae, even though no in vitro meat is currently 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:13.759 cultured in this process and there is no current 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.000 research proving that it would be possible to 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.240 do so in the future. Unsurprisingly, I have not 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.599 been able to locate a single other peer -reviewed 00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:28.180 study that has duplicated these findings. In 00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:31.720 fact, Later research has found that in vitro 00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.640 meat may be more harmful in terms of climate 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.400 change than even traditional animal agriculture 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:43.200 as one recent study concluded Cultivation of 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.920 in vitro meat requires more industrial energy 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:51.880 often produced by burning fossil fuels than pork 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:56.180 poultry and maybe even beef The reason for these 00:28:56.180 --> 00:28:58.880 counterintuitive results is that while cultured 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.200 meat uses less land, it requires more energy 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.539 inputs, i .e. fossil fuels, than even factory 00:29:05.539 --> 00:29:08.839 farms. As a thoughtful article in The Atlantic 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.460 explained, cell culture is the most expensive 00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:15.920 and most resource -intensive technique in modern 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.920 biology. Keeping the cells warm, healthy, well 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.240 -fed, and free of contamination takes incredible 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.849 labor and energy, even when scaled to the 10 00:29:26.849 --> 00:29:30.390 ,000 liter vats the biotech companies use. And 00:29:30.390 --> 00:29:33.549 on top of that, the fact that these three dimensional 00:29:33.549 --> 00:29:36.990 wads of meat would have to be exercised regularly 00:29:36.990 --> 00:29:40.690 with stretching machinery, essentially elaborate 00:29:40.690 --> 00:29:44.670 meat gems, and you begin to understand the incredible 00:29:44.670 --> 00:29:48.569 challenges of scaling in vitro meat. As Marco 00:29:48.569 --> 00:29:51.750 Springman, a post -graduate researcher at Oxford 00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:55.490 University, phrased the same critique, although 00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:58.890 the technologies are evolving, there is no indication 00:29:58.890 --> 00:30:01.970 the lab -grown meat is significantly better for 00:30:01.970 --> 00:30:05.250 the environment and health than existing alternatives 00:30:05.250 --> 00:30:08.730 to beef. The latest reviews have put the emissions 00:30:08.730 --> 00:30:12.650 of lab -grown meat at several times that of chicken 00:30:12.650 --> 00:30:18.750 and far beyond any plant. based alternative simple 00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:22.630 truth number two in vitro meat hurts animals 00:30:22.630 --> 00:30:26.849 lots of animals the proponents of in vitro meat 00:30:26.849 --> 00:30:30.230 like to focus on how the meat is grown from a 00:30:30.230 --> 00:30:33.029 cell of animals without any animals have to be 00:30:33.029 --> 00:30:36.650 killed to produce these cells which is true what 00:30:36.650 --> 00:30:39.150 however they fail to point out is that these 00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:42.069 cells can currently only be grown in fetal bovine 00:30:42.069 --> 00:30:46.519 serum i .e. the blood of unborn cows Therefore, 00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:49.420 it is hard to argue that shut up practice should 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:52.880 be considered either vegan or cruelty free. And 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:55.880 just to be clear, such extraction causes massive 00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:58.500 suffering as both the mother is killed in order 00:30:58.500 --> 00:31:01.180 to have her fetus extracted and the fetus is 00:31:01.180 --> 00:31:04.420 kept alive outside of the womb for the entirety 00:31:04.420 --> 00:31:07.440 of the extraction without any form of anesthesia 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.980 ever being applied despite the scientific reality 00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:13.619 that they show normal brain activity and pain 00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:16.279 responses for the entirety of the procedure. 00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.599 As a peer -reviewed study specifically on the 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.579 topic of fetal bovine serum concluded, quote, 00:31:23.019 --> 00:31:26.460 fetal bovine serum, FBS, is the common component 00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:29.480 of annual cell culture medium. It is harvested 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.400 from bovine fetuses taken from pregnant cows 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:36.099 during slaughter. FBS is commonly harvested by 00:31:36.099 --> 00:31:39.339 means of cardiac puncture without any form of 00:31:39.339 --> 00:31:43.569 anesthesia. Fetuses are exposed to pain and discomfort, 00:31:44.009 --> 00:31:47.390 so the current practice of fetal bovine serum 00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:51.589 harvesting is inhumane. Nor are these amounts 00:31:51.589 --> 00:31:54.670 of bovine fetal harvest small, since each bovine 00:31:54.670 --> 00:31:58.730 fetus produces relatively little FBS, and since 00:31:58.730 --> 00:32:01.990 a large amount is necessary to culture these 00:32:01.990 --> 00:32:05.869 cells, a large number of bovine fetuses are required 00:32:05.869 --> 00:32:10.170 to produce in vitro meat. Current estimates place 00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:14.549 the total at over 2 million bovine fetuses and 00:32:14.549 --> 00:32:17.450 their mothers annually. And this number is growing. 00:32:18.130 --> 00:32:20.670 And the financial benefit to the factory farms 00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:23.990 is massive. Since research on in vitro meat has 00:32:23.990 --> 00:32:27.829 begun, the price that CAFOs can charge for FPS 00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:32.869 has increased by over 300%. It is currently the 00:32:32.869 --> 00:32:36.190 single most profitable item that a factory farm 00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:39.480 sells. Even if other countries do develop new 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.539 technologies and some are in vitro meat represents 00:32:43.539 --> 00:32:47.099 animal experimentation on a mass scale and Pretending 00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:49.559 it doesn't because the suffering happens on the 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.980 farm and not technically in the lab is a distinction 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:58.059 without a moral difference Simple truth number 00:32:58.059 --> 00:33:02.440 three in vitro meat helps factory farms. It does 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:07.470 it in three ways one It keeps people eating meat. 00:33:08.009 --> 00:33:10.890 Driven by increasing population, increasing obesity 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:13.769 rates, and in particular, increasing rates in 00:33:13.769 --> 00:33:16.109 meat consumption in countries such as China, 00:33:16.329 --> 00:33:20.029 India, and Brazil, global meat demand is increasing. 00:33:20.529 --> 00:33:23.690 However, because of hard limits, they're running 00:33:23.690 --> 00:33:26.210 out of room, space, and the environment. Factory 00:33:26.210 --> 00:33:28.890 farms cannot meet this demand. In -vitro meat 00:33:28.890 --> 00:33:31.710 is being developed to supply this new demand 00:33:31.710 --> 00:33:34.680 that Bruce talked about. to keep people eating 00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:38.759 meat, not to trade off with factory farms. Two, 00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:42.759 to act as a new filler. Tyson's own internal 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.440 studies show that people no longer want their 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.440 meat to look like animals. Think boneless chicken 00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:51.140 nuggets, which creates the opportunity to create, 00:33:51.259 --> 00:33:55.259 in their words, a blended product. However as 00:33:55.259 --> 00:33:58.460 controversy over Taco Bell blending in soy with 00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:01.859 its beef or the controversy over so -called pink 00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:06.119 slime highlights Consumers often resist this 00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:09.860 blending process Factory farms are funding in 00:34:09.860 --> 00:34:13.179 vitro meat not to trade off with factory farms 00:34:13.179 --> 00:34:16.280 But to be able to use it as a new filler so they 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:20.440 can label their product 100 % beef Perhaps they 00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:23.739 will even market it as an eco burger Assuming 00:34:23.739 --> 00:34:27.019 a 50 -50 blend, in vitro meat won't trade off 00:34:27.019 --> 00:34:29.440 with the number of people who are eating factory 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:34.119 farm meat. It will effectively double it. Three, 00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:37.460 to help with public relations. As you can imagine, 00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:40.280 Tyson and factory farms do not currently pull 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:43.920 well with consumers. Funding clean meat and their 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.300 small amount of funding for plant -based protein 00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:49.599 is designed to improve their image and public 00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.340 relations. While the first two are still purely 00:34:52.340 --> 00:34:55.539 theoretical, this last goal is already working. 00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.420 In January of this year, in part because of their 00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:02.340 funding of in vitro meat and plant -based protein, 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.260 even Bruce claimed in a published interview, 00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.699 quote, for the Good Food Institute in particular, 00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.000 we have really good relationships with Tyson 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:17.619 Foods, with Smithfield Foods, with Purdue. with 00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:20.400 huge chicken conglomerates and meat companies. 00:35:21.099 --> 00:35:23.800 It's helpful to recognize that the people who 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.699 run these companies want to do something noble. 00:35:29.659 --> 00:35:33.280 I don't believe they do. Because the most basic 00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:36.039 problem of in vitro meat is that it represents 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.539 a solution without a problem. The idea that the 00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:42.119 reason that people are refusing to give up meat 00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:44.960 is because of a lack of adequate meat substitutes 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:49.530 is simply untrue. From taste to texture to nutritional 00:35:49.530 --> 00:35:52.989 quality, a cornucopia of options, both natural 00:35:52.989 --> 00:35:56.130 and artificial, already exist, are widely available 00:35:56.130 --> 00:35:59.210 and reasonably affordable. Just to highlight 00:35:59.210 --> 00:36:03.110 the absurd degree to which meat has already been 00:36:03.110 --> 00:36:06.389 successfully imitated, impossible foods even 00:36:06.389 --> 00:36:09.969 produced a completely vegan hamburger that bleeds. 00:36:10.219 --> 00:36:13.820 In fact, under taste tests, many non -vegans 00:36:13.820 --> 00:36:16.599 cannot tell the difference between the real and 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.280 some of the new imitation products unless they 00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:22.469 are told. Even Michael Pollan. One of the most 00:36:22.469 --> 00:36:25.130 famous proponents of humane meat and one of the 00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:28.150 most ardent critics of so -called mock meat had 00:36:28.150 --> 00:36:32.769 to admit in a blind taste test aired on PBS that 00:36:32.769 --> 00:36:36.250 he could not tell the difference with a sub of 00:36:36.250 --> 00:36:40.289 actual KFO meat and a sub made from the new types 00:36:40.289 --> 00:36:45.510 of mock meat. In conclusion, in response to rising 00:36:45.510 --> 00:36:48.210 concerns about its effect on climate change, 00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:52.119 coal companies, hire consultants to come up with 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:55.199 new marketing campaigns, to decrease protest, 00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.760 ward off government oversight, confuse consumers 00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:01.800 and activists, and most importantly, to ward 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.320 off the growth of actual valid alternatives such 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:10.280 as solar and wind. Their terminology was clean 00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:15.059 coal. Likewise, responding to similar criticism 00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:18.199 from environmentalist, animal rights organizations, 00:37:18.659 --> 00:37:20.960 and growing fears of governmental oversight and 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.139 shifts to actually valid options of identically 00:37:24.139 --> 00:37:27.460 tasting plant -based options, the meat industry 00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:30.659 has started to fund a new technology it calls 00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:36.079 clean meat. However, what we need, what I believe 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:40.440 in, the simple and obvious truth is that what 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:43.539 we should be fighting for is not for clean meat, 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:56.179 but for no meat at all. Thank you. Hi, everyone. 00:37:56.840 --> 00:38:00.980 How you doing? Good, good. Thank you for that 00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:06.119 lively discussion. Some facts we will dispute 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:09.139 in the coming session. And if I have a couple 00:38:09.139 --> 00:38:11.340 minutes, I might hand it over to Bruce for at 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:16.619 least one fact we would dispute. However, I want 00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:19.340 to talk a little bit about myself, why I'm here. 00:38:19.820 --> 00:38:22.039 I am Leah Garces. I am the president of Mercy 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:28.119 for Animals. Yay! And this is our mission. And 00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:31.519 our mission is to construct, an important word, 00:38:32.179 --> 00:38:34.519 a compassionate food system by reducing suffering 00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.320 and ending the exploitation. of animals for food. 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.699 I use the word construct because it's very important 00:38:39.699 --> 00:38:42.400 to me. It's not good enough for us to just point 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.840 out what's wrong. We have to be actively working 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.400 to solve the problem and constructing a better 00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.400 food system. And that's important to keep in 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:53.619 mind today as we tear apart what I think is a 00:38:53.619 --> 00:38:57.260 very valid solution that we should not be throwing 00:38:57.260 --> 00:38:59.719 away at this early stage in its development. 00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:05.679 So why are we all here? Let's just remember that, 00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:08.300 because that was a heated exchange, I would say. 00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:10.099 We're all here for the same reason. Hope brought 00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:13.480 us all here for the same reason. We all are trying 00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:17.699 to stop this. Because as a reminder, there are 00:39:17.699 --> 00:39:20.940 nearly 80 billion farmed animals that move through 00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:22.840 our food system. And that's just land. That's 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:24.860 not sea animals. Those are not water animals 00:39:24.860 --> 00:39:28.119 that are in systems like this that are atrocious. 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.219 And we're in crisis mode now. We're at an urgent 00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:37.179 point in our history because guess what? This 00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:43.280 is not working very well. More people are eating 00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:48.420 animals than ever before in history. More animals 00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:52.079 are being slaughtered than ever before in history. 00:39:52.420 --> 00:39:54.860 That is the reality that we have to keep in mind 00:39:54.860 --> 00:39:57.059 and we have to keep in mind for the animals that 00:39:57.059 --> 00:40:00.260 I just showed you. That's a fact. And that trend 00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:02.519 has not changed, and in fact, it's exponential. 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:07.000 And there are two reasons for that. One is this. 00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:12.480 Human population growth. By 2050, we predict 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.820 there will be, the United Nations predicts, there 00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:18.699 will be 10 billion people on the planet. That's 00:40:18.699 --> 00:40:21.519 not slowing down. That's not stopping, that's 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.380 not what we're here to debate or try to stop. 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.400 That's gonna happen. 10 billion people, and they 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:29.530 all need to eat. And what's more, second trend, 00:40:32.010 --> 00:40:34.269 is that there's undernourishment is decreasing. 00:40:34.849 --> 00:40:37.610 Across the world, people are living higher qualities 00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:39.469 of life, and that's a great thing for human beings. 00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:41.989 And in some countries, that's really pronounced, 00:40:42.750 --> 00:40:46.909 like China and Brazil, where childhood mortality 00:40:46.909 --> 00:40:49.710 is dropping off a cliff. We've stayed pretty 00:40:49.710 --> 00:40:52.329 steady, but in some countries, where, by the 00:40:52.329 --> 00:40:55.130 way, the population is rising astronomically, 00:40:55.289 --> 00:40:59.170 They're also having higher quality of life. And 00:40:59.170 --> 00:41:01.550 comes with that, the unintended consequence, 00:41:01.909 --> 00:41:03.789 the negative consequence, is that people are 00:41:03.789 --> 00:41:06.010 eating more meat. And this is why more animals 00:41:06.010 --> 00:41:08.210 are being slaughtered than ever before in history. 00:41:09.670 --> 00:41:14.110 So by that thought, we are failing miserably 00:41:14.110 --> 00:41:17.369 at doing our job, Bruce and I, as activists. 00:41:18.289 --> 00:41:21.190 And we are hopeless optimists, is why we're still 00:41:21.190 --> 00:41:23.769 here, we're still working, because we believe 00:41:23.769 --> 00:41:26.409 we can change it. And I think that's why you 00:41:26.409 --> 00:41:29.010 all are here today, too. But we have to keep 00:41:29.010 --> 00:41:31.429 in mind these real figures, these cold, hard 00:41:31.429 --> 00:41:37.590 numbers that we're faced with. Because if population 00:41:37.590 --> 00:41:40.710 increases as it's set to increase, the Food and 00:41:40.710 --> 00:41:42.989 Agriculture Organization of the United Nations 00:41:42.989 --> 00:41:46.170 says that we're going to have to more than double 00:41:46.170 --> 00:41:48.949 the number of animals in factory farms to meet 00:41:48.949 --> 00:41:51.230 this demand. This is not my figure. This is the 00:41:51.230 --> 00:41:58.519 United Nations. So, we did a math problem. We 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:02.139 said, what if we modestly, modestly, because 00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:04.340 we want zero, right? What if we modestly wanted 00:42:04.340 --> 00:42:07.400 to half the number of farmed animals that are 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:11.099 slaughtered today by 2050 given the rising population? 00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.780 So we want to go from 74 billion to 37 billion, 00:42:15.940 --> 00:42:21.079 let's say. What would that mean per person? Would 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:23.719 it mean? half the number of farmed animals per 00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:28.000 person? No, because there's going to be so many 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.400 more humans on the planet. What it would mean 00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:35.639 is 10%. That would mean everybody in the United 00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:41.599 States today would have to eat 90 % less of what 00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:44.320 they eat today to get us to only half the number 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:50.389 of farmed animals today by 2050. What's, it's 00:42:50.389 --> 00:42:55.030 realistic for us to look. Oh, so this is around 00:42:55.030 --> 00:42:57.690 the world, it's very similar. So, I know, cute 00:42:57.690 --> 00:43:00.929 picture for a second so we can just have a cute 00:43:00.929 --> 00:43:05.230 picture moment to make us happy again. Oceana, 00:43:05.349 --> 00:43:07.929 the same thing, which is where Asia is housed. 00:43:09.170 --> 00:43:11.730 Brazil, Latin America, they're all the same. 00:43:11.769 --> 00:43:15.719 They all have to do major reductions, 90%. Just 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.380 to get us to half, just to get us to 37 billion, 00:43:18.420 --> 00:43:22.699 which is totally unacceptable, right? And okay, 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:24.980 so let's think, okay, what's been happening in 00:43:24.980 --> 00:43:27.320 the last 20 years in terms of meat consumption? 00:43:28.420 --> 00:43:32.519 Or vegetarianism, plant -based? It's not good. 00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:36.159 Actually, a Gallup poll recently showed that 00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:39.119 it stayed the same. Over 20 years in the United 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.539 States, it's been at 6%. It hasn't changed. So 00:43:43.539 --> 00:43:46.800 again, Something's not right in the way that 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.539 we're approaching this problem So let's review 00:43:50.539 --> 00:43:53.239 10 billion people on the planet by 2050 they're 00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:55.860 gonna have higher standards of living And we're 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:57.280 gonna have to more than double the number of 00:43:57.280 --> 00:44:01.019 animals to meet that demand To reduce the number 00:44:01.019 --> 00:44:03.159 of farmed animals by even half an American would 00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:05.400 have to eat 90 % less of what they eat today 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.300 But vegetarianism has stayed around five to six 00:44:08.300 --> 00:44:11.300 percent of the last 20 years in this country 00:44:11.300 --> 00:44:16.780 So What should our approach be? What should we 00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:20.699 do? This is what I think about every day in my 00:44:20.699 --> 00:44:22.940 job, what Bruce thinks about every single day 00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:26.260 as activists. We are thinking, how do we stop 00:44:26.260 --> 00:44:31.179 this trend? Now, our opponents might try to tell 00:44:31.179 --> 00:44:35.300 you that clean meat is the holy grail for us, 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:37.920 that we think this is the only answer, we're 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:39.639 gonna throw all our resources, we're giving up 00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:43.719 on everything else. It is not true. But clean 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:46.260 meat didn't exist only a few years ago. We're 00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:48.960 in the first stages of developing this should 00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:53.420 we throw it out right now forget it Should we 00:44:53.420 --> 00:44:57.300 say no to this obviously a technology that has 00:44:57.300 --> 00:45:03.619 a great amount of potential Is clean meat bad 00:45:03.619 --> 00:45:06.639 for animals absolutely not it doesn't harm one 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:09.800 animal in the process given its full potential 00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:16.940 and Is it something that is the answer to stopping 00:45:16.940 --> 00:45:19.639 the exploitation of animals for food? Maybe. 00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:22.280 It might be. Or maybe not. But we shouldn't stop 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:27.820 now. And is it good for animals? Absolutely. 00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.159 It's worth exploring. But so are all of these 00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:33.780 to continue doing. All of these things we do. 00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:36.539 There's not one answer. And I think we get into 00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:39.940 this idea of there's one hero to the story of 00:45:39.940 --> 00:45:42.380 ending factory farming. But there's not one hero. 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:45.239 We're all part of this story. And all of the 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:47.980 options that we're exploring, we have to support. 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:53.320 And our opponent also talked about stopping consumption 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:58.440 of all meat. But what is meat? Meat is a word, 00:45:58.940 --> 00:46:03.019 is a social construct that we created, that we 00:46:03.019 --> 00:46:06.000 decided comes from a slaughtered animal. Our 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:10.119 opponents might say that meat shouldn't be eaten, 00:46:10.300 --> 00:46:12.900 even if it comes from an animal that was never 00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:15.820 slaughtered, that was never harmed, that was 00:46:15.820 --> 00:46:20.739 never alive. So should we reject it for that 00:46:20.739 --> 00:46:25.739 reason? Because it comes originally from a system 00:46:25.739 --> 00:46:29.760 of injustice and exploitation? Well, it turns 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.059 out that we can reassign things at any time, 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.030 and we are doing so, and we have done so. The 00:46:36.030 --> 00:46:38.190 industry feels really threatened by this and 00:46:38.190 --> 00:46:40.550 confused and they're conflicting internally about 00:46:40.550 --> 00:46:43.030 this. They don't know what to do. We have the 00:46:43.030 --> 00:46:45.849 Cattlemen Association who are throwing petitions 00:46:45.849 --> 00:46:49.769 to stop us from redefining meat as a word because 00:46:49.769 --> 00:46:51.929 this is super threatening to them. Where we're 00:46:51.929 --> 00:46:54.289 saying, you don't get to decide what meat is, 00:46:54.429 --> 00:46:56.789 we do. And it doesn't come from a slaughtered 00:46:56.789 --> 00:47:00.969 animal. And companies like Cargill are thinking, 00:47:01.190 --> 00:47:03.860 I got to stay in business in the future. They're 00:47:03.860 --> 00:47:06.260 not doing out of mal intent. I work with these 00:47:06.260 --> 00:47:09.280 companies. They're just caring about the bottom 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:11.880 line. And if we can convince them that the bottom 00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.820 line can come from an animal that was never slaughtered, 00:47:14.980 --> 00:47:17.860 they're like, thumbs up. That's all they care 00:47:17.860 --> 00:47:20.460 about. They don't care about animals. They don't 00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:22.300 really care about consumers. They care about 00:47:22.300 --> 00:47:26.780 money. Right? And if we can make it so that it 00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:30.019 just makes money, they're all for it. And CARG 00:47:30.019 --> 00:47:33.599 will prove that. Cargill renamed their meat department. 00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:36.659 They read just listen they renamed their meat 00:47:36.659 --> 00:47:40.500 department to be a protein department Because 00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:42.619 they're preparing for the future they know this 00:47:42.619 --> 00:47:46.539 is where we are headed Where this word and protein 00:47:46.539 --> 00:47:49.500 we're in a protein revolution right now Where 00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:55.360 this word is changing? And is there any history 00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:58.869 that where we reassigned a word And to do that 00:47:58.869 --> 00:48:01.150 I have to tell you the story, the tale of the 00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:02.869 two Henrys. Has anybody heard the tale of the 00:48:02.869 --> 00:48:06.969 two Henrys before? Oh good. Does anybody know 00:48:06.969 --> 00:48:11.090 who is on the left? Or on the right? Henry Ford, 00:48:11.170 --> 00:48:14.570 okay. On the left is Henry Berg. Henry Berg is 00:48:14.570 --> 00:48:18.969 the founder of the ASPCA and Henry Ford made 00:48:18.969 --> 00:48:24.289 cars. So Henry Berg in 1863, he was an American 00:48:24.289 --> 00:48:27.550 diplomat and he went over to Russia and he saw 00:48:27.710 --> 00:48:32.309 this driver beating a fallen horse and he got 00:48:32.309 --> 00:48:34.309 out and he stopped him and right then and there 00:48:34.309 --> 00:48:37.070 he realized he was an activist and he could do 00:48:37.070 --> 00:48:39.190 something to change the world. He went back to 00:48:39.190 --> 00:48:42.309 the United States and in 1866 he founded the 00:48:42.309 --> 00:48:44.849 ASPCA with the primary focus of protecting those 00:48:44.849 --> 00:48:48.570 horses, of stopping the abuse and cruelty towards 00:48:48.570 --> 00:48:50.889 horses used for the simple thing that humans 00:48:50.889 --> 00:48:55.610 needed, transportation from A to B. But his dream 00:48:55.880 --> 00:49:00.539 was really accelerated, really driven home when 00:49:00.539 --> 00:49:04.800 Henry Ford came up with a car. Henry Ford very 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.619 famously said, if I had asked my customers what 00:49:08.619 --> 00:49:10.400 they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. 00:49:11.260 --> 00:49:16.260 I gave them a car. And it was the car, it was 00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:20.480 this vehicle, this transportation, innovation 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:24.659 that led to the near end of the use of horses 00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:28.260 for transportation. Because human beings were 00:49:28.260 --> 00:49:31.659 going to continue to need transportation from 00:49:31.659 --> 00:49:34.960 A to B and demand that. And as population grew 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:37.460 and our world grew smaller, they still wanted 00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:40.119 to get from A to B and they still needed it. 00:49:41.619 --> 00:49:47.840 And that's the... Okay, my last one. So, in this 00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:57.159 same way, where... The abused horse is now the 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:01.159 forgotten ancestor of our modern car. One day, 00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:06.980 with any hope of this technology working, the 00:50:06.980 --> 00:50:09.719 burger or the farmed animal that is slaughtered 00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:12.840 will just be the distant memory, the ancestor, 00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:18.360 the forgotten ancestor of the burger. And cell 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:20.300 -based meat will have helped us get there, hopefully. 00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:23.639 And farmed animals will thank us for not stopping 00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:27.019 to explore every avenue, take every option, because 00:50:27.019 --> 00:50:29.380 of those astronomical numbers we are up against. 00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:43.719 Thank you. Our resident pirate, John Sanbanmatsu. 00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:48.570 Thank you, Hope. Thank you, Hope, and thank you, 00:50:48.610 --> 00:50:49.929 Karen, for having me here. I'm going to speak 00:50:49.929 --> 00:50:51.510 very quickly, because I have about 20 minutes. 00:50:51.530 --> 00:50:56.309 I'm combining into 10. I get it. We have some 00:50:56.309 --> 00:50:58.769 courageous activists on the stage. And I get 00:50:58.769 --> 00:51:01.190 that after so many years of frustration with 00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:04.150 people eating more meat, more animals suffering, 00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:07.269 we see something bright and shiny and new, a 00:51:07.269 --> 00:51:09.690 high -technology item, something that has the 00:51:09.690 --> 00:51:12.530 backing of a lot of very powerful, rich white 00:51:12.530 --> 00:51:15.210 men. So it must be award -winning, kind of like 00:51:15.210 --> 00:51:21.690 the film Green Book. Well, my message for you 00:51:21.690 --> 00:51:24.690 today, my message for you today is that all that 00:51:24.690 --> 00:51:27.530 glitters is not gold. Sometimes under further 00:51:27.530 --> 00:51:29.730 scrutiny it turns out to be fool's gold, which 00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:32.329 has all, actually none of the properties of real 00:51:32.329 --> 00:51:35.309 gold, but all of the sheen. Geologists call that 00:51:35.309 --> 00:51:37.969 pyrite, which is why I have come dressed as a 00:51:37.969 --> 00:51:42.550 pyrite myself tonight. Ladies and gentlemen, 00:51:42.650 --> 00:51:46.269 welcome to the land of make -believe, where the 00:51:46.269 --> 00:51:49.760 Good Food Institute tells us that the two forces 00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.320 which have destroyed most animal life on the 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:56.119 earth, which are capitalism and the meat economy, 00:51:56.320 --> 00:51:58.320 the meat industry, are going to, guess what, 00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:01.739 be the solution to saving the animals. It would 00:52:01.739 --> 00:52:07.780 be funny if it wasn't horrifying. So I have many 00:52:07.780 --> 00:52:09.900 different arguments to make. The main one is 00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:11.860 that synthetic meat is an opportunity for the 00:52:11.860 --> 00:52:14.440 meat industry to diversify its markets and to 00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:17.219 ensure its long -term survival, including of 00:52:17.219 --> 00:52:20.039 its... I need the clicker. Where's the clicker? 00:52:24.340 --> 00:52:27.440 We've been in heated negotiations about time 00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:32.579 here. Clean meat is part of a strategy not to 00:52:32.579 --> 00:52:34.840 replace animal agriculture, but to enshrine the 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:38.960 meat economy forever. Oh, by the way, so this, 00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:40.840 you'll be able to, I'll show the slide later. 00:52:40.900 --> 00:52:43.000 We are putting together a website, thecleanmeathoax 00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:46.900 .com. My first point is that clean meat strengthens 00:52:46.900 --> 00:52:49.199 meat culture. Synthetic meat reinforces meat 00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:52.519 culture as a whole. As Justin Van Cleet points 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.000 out, quote, the problem with clean meat is that 00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.179 it keeps meat as a concept on the plate. The 00:52:58.179 --> 00:53:00.199 continued preponderance of meat will therefore 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:02.539 mean that real meat will always have a cultural 00:53:02.539 --> 00:53:05.849 cache that nothing else will. I think that aestheticizing 00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:08.389 meat as an attractive commodity is a terrible 00:53:08.389 --> 00:53:11.510 idea. Consumers are being thrust into a twilight 00:53:11.510 --> 00:53:15.170 zone of ontological ambiguity. Is it real or 00:53:15.170 --> 00:53:17.969 is it Memorex? Is it real meat or is it real 00:53:17.969 --> 00:53:21.989 meat? Who can say? Much of the public relations 00:53:21.989 --> 00:53:24.230 and marketing discourse around clean meat actually 00:53:24.230 --> 00:53:27.250 reinforces myths about meat. The idea that animal 00:53:27.250 --> 00:53:29.710 flesh is essential, indispensable, inevitable, 00:53:30.050 --> 00:53:32.690 irreplaceable, natural, something we need rather 00:53:32.690 --> 00:53:35.119 than merely want. When Bruce was interviewed 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:37.480 on Vox, his interviewer said, quote, you often 00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.599 hear that eating animals is natural. And it is, 00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.099 but not the way we do it. Bruce, unfortunately, 00:53:43.179 --> 00:53:45.139 did not correct the interviewer. But in fact, 00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:47.679 it is not natural. It's a historical cultural 00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:50.480 artifact, as Leah was saying. Meat is even being 00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.110 depicted as aesthetically beautiful. Here's how 00:53:53.110 --> 00:53:55.849 the Israeli synthetic meat startup Aleph Farms, 00:53:55.889 --> 00:53:59.090 a beneficiary of one of Bruce's two venture capitalist 00:53:59.090 --> 00:54:01.469 firms. You're too modest, Bruce. You talked about 00:54:01.469 --> 00:54:03.530 your non -profit work, not the fact that you 00:54:03.530 --> 00:54:06.130 are principal in two venture capitalist firms 00:54:06.130 --> 00:54:22.170 to produce and profit from this. Yes, debate 00:54:22.170 --> 00:54:25.849 later. One of the firms that's profiting from 00:54:25.849 --> 00:54:28.969 these capital venture firms is Aleph Foods, which 00:54:28.969 --> 00:54:31.250 says, quote, we believe meat is one of life's 00:54:31.250 --> 00:54:34.550 pleasures to be celebrated and enjoyed, but without 00:54:34.550 --> 00:54:36.690 the downsides to health and the environment. 00:54:37.269 --> 00:54:39.429 Finally, meat you can enjoy that's good for your 00:54:39.429 --> 00:54:41.980 health and good for the planet. So, two messages. 00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:44.219 One, meat is one of life's essential pleasures. 00:54:44.420 --> 00:54:46.719 Two, you should eat the new meat for health and 00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.019 the environment. And my friends, it's not about 00:54:49.019 --> 00:54:52.380 the animals in most of the discourse of the advertising. 00:54:52.739 --> 00:54:55.480 It's an anti -vegan discourse. The animals barely 00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:57.659 get mentioned a lot of the time in many of the 00:54:57.659 --> 00:54:59.539 presentations, as though they're an embarrassment. 00:54:59.900 --> 00:55:01.719 It's doing the opposite of what we want to do, 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:03.659 which is try to get people to actually care about 00:55:03.659 --> 00:55:06.559 animals, not to trivialize them. But Bruce himself 00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:10.340 says that the whole point of clean meat is, quote, 00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:14.119 take ethics off the table for the consumer. But 00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:17.179 taking ethics off the table subverts animal justice 00:55:17.179 --> 00:55:19.559 and damages the long -term interests of both 00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.510 animals and our movement. Secondly, Clean meat 00:55:24.510 --> 00:55:26.929 is not intended to replace animal agriculture. 00:55:27.389 --> 00:55:29.469 Neither the Good Food Institute nor the venture 00:55:29.469 --> 00:55:31.969 capitalist firm's new crop capital or clear current 00:55:31.969 --> 00:55:34.889 capital are against animal agriculture. Quote, 00:55:35.150 --> 00:55:37.969 our team views conventional animal agriculture 00:55:37.969 --> 00:55:41.250 as an antiquated and inefficient food production 00:55:41.250 --> 00:55:44.840 system. And Bruce himself said at a debate, quote, 00:55:45.059 --> 00:55:47.699 I understand the concern of people in slow food. 00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:50.320 And we're absolutely not trying to make people 00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:53.039 unhappy about, you know, animal farms. I would 00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:55.099 be completely shocked if the fact that clean 00:55:55.099 --> 00:55:57.920 meat is being promoted, if that had any negative 00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:00.300 ramifications for the folks in the regenerative 00:56:00.300 --> 00:56:02.960 animal agriculture, slow food, high welfare crowd. 00:56:03.530 --> 00:56:05.769 And in fact, to the degree that clean meat is 00:56:05.769 --> 00:56:08.949 successful, it replaces conventional animal agriculture. 00:56:09.389 --> 00:56:11.409 We see Tyson, Smithfield, and everybody else 00:56:11.409 --> 00:56:14.730 go to clean meat. And then the options are clean 00:56:14.730 --> 00:56:18.150 meat on one hand and then the sort of regenerative 00:56:18.150 --> 00:56:20.510 high -welfare meat on the other. So it's reducing 00:56:20.510 --> 00:56:23.400 the future to these two possibilities. Quote, 00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.059 so I don't see them in competition at all. I 00:56:26.059 --> 00:56:28.519 don't think there are any real negative ramifications 00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:31.539 for high welfare regenerative agriculture. Just 00:56:31.539 --> 00:56:35.539 as a reminder, this is what high welfare animal 00:56:35.539 --> 00:56:38.400 agriculture looks like. Camus Davis, of course, 00:56:39.039 --> 00:56:41.840 the local hunting people, and all the animals 00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:44.260 end up in these slaughterhouses anyway. This 00:56:44.260 --> 00:56:46.219 is high welfare. And these people basically get 00:56:46.219 --> 00:56:52.369 a pass. Make no mistake. This is an anti animal 00:56:52.369 --> 00:56:54.489 justice position. It is a welfare's position 00:56:54.489 --> 00:56:57.610 It is not an abolitionist one the clean meat 00:56:57.610 --> 00:57:00.730 Lobby has set up a false dilemma a choice between 00:57:00.730 --> 00:57:03.570 conventional animal agriculture on one side and 00:57:03.570 --> 00:57:06.849 new synthesized animal flesh on the other What 00:57:06.849 --> 00:57:09.670 we need is an is a choice between animal agriculture 00:57:09.670 --> 00:57:12.840 and animal free agriculture This, by the way, 00:57:12.860 --> 00:57:14.980 is an intensification of humane meat discourse, 00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:17.619 which I've written on. We don't have time to 00:57:17.619 --> 00:57:19.980 go into it. Bruce has been a promoter of that. 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.579 I think humane meat and the myth that animals 00:57:22.579 --> 00:57:26.539 can be killed, gassed, shot, stabbed in the billions 00:57:26.539 --> 00:57:30.000 or millions ethically is horrific and has done 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:36.650 great damage to our movements. Clean meat won't 00:57:36.650 --> 00:57:38.750 eliminate meat from animals killed on factory 00:57:38.750 --> 00:57:41.730 farms either so I could agree with my partner 00:57:41.730 --> 00:57:45.010 in this facility Who quoted Bruce is saying for 00:57:45.010 --> 00:57:46.710 the good food Institute? We have really good 00:57:46.710 --> 00:57:49.030 relationships with Tyson Smithfield Purdue and 00:57:49.030 --> 00:57:50.969 so forth and says that the people who run these 00:57:50.969 --> 00:57:53.170 companies want to do something noble They want 00:57:53.170 --> 00:57:55.409 to feed the world high quality protein. That's 00:57:55.409 --> 00:57:58.219 their goal But as Leah said, it isn't their goal. 00:57:58.300 --> 00:58:00.780 They have one goal. It isn't to feed the world. 00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:02.739 It's to make profit. And if they're going to 00:58:02.739 --> 00:58:04.719 kill billions and billions of animals to do that, 00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:07.139 they'll do that. So that much of the argument 00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:11.139 is clear. Well, James Levesque, over a decade 00:58:11.139 --> 00:58:12.940 ago, wrote this really great article. You should 00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:14.980 look up online. It's called Invasion of the Movement 00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:17.539 Snatchers. And it's about how the meat industry 00:58:17.539 --> 00:58:20.360 is taking over the vegan movement and the animal 00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:23.380 rights movement, believe it or not. So you have, 00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:27.099 just in the last A few years, you have all of 00:58:27.099 --> 00:58:31.460 these companies now taking over the vegan foods 00:58:31.460 --> 00:58:36.619 industry. In 2016, the Danone Dairy Company in 00:58:36.619 --> 00:58:40.199 France bought White Wave and Silk Soy Milk. In 00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:43.579 2017, Field Roast and Light Life, the vegan meat 00:58:43.579 --> 00:58:45.880 companies, were purchased by Maple Leaf Foods, 00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:54.650 the biggest killer of animals in Canada. So this 00:58:54.650 --> 00:58:58.449 is maple leaf foods. In 2017, the Daiya Cheese 00:58:58.449 --> 00:59:02.309 Company was purchased by the Otsuka Pharmaceutical 00:59:02.309 --> 00:59:04.809 Company, the second biggest big pharma in Japan, 00:59:04.929 --> 00:59:07.949 which of course tests on animals. Last year, 00:59:08.329 --> 00:59:10.289 Good Catch, which is one of the companies that 00:59:10.289 --> 00:59:14.679 Bruce has promoted, I believe. raised 8 .7 million 00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:18.380 dollars in new funding, including from the PHW 00:59:18.380 --> 00:59:21.380 Grupa Lohmann Company. Who are they? One of Europe's 00:59:21.380 --> 00:59:24.079 largest poultry producers. They killed 350 million 00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:28.380 chickens just last year. Meanwhile, thanks to 00:59:28.380 --> 00:59:31.300 these capital investment firms, the biggest meat 00:59:31.300 --> 00:59:33.179 companies are now buying into synthetic meat. 00:59:33.579 --> 00:59:36.179 Tyson and Cargill are investing in Memphis meats, 00:59:36.900 --> 00:59:40.500 and it could give you many other examples. So 00:59:40.500 --> 00:59:44.440 why are companies doing this? Why are they gobbling 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:47.800 up the vegan industry? Well, I want to concur 00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:51.380 with my debate partner here. First of all, there's 00:59:51.380 --> 00:59:54.320 vegan washing and green washing. These companies 00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.619 are able to put a compassionate label, sustainability 00:59:57.619 --> 01:00:01.000 label on their products. Secondly, they are hedging 01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:03.619 against future risk by buying up vegan enterprises. 01:00:03.940 --> 01:00:06.699 They gain strategic, growing influence and advantage 01:00:06.699 --> 01:00:09.679 over the vegan market and the animal rights movement. 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:12.099 They're defining our discourses for us and now 01:00:12.099 --> 01:00:16.380 here we are as though summoned. Three, it's about 01:00:16.380 --> 01:00:19.380 the money. to ensure future market dominance 01:00:19.380 --> 01:00:22.059 through a two -track strategy to preserve and, 01:00:22.059 --> 01:00:24.639 where possible, to expand traditional live animal 01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:26.900 markets. It is quite clear these companies have 01:00:26.900 --> 01:00:30.039 no intention ever of ending animal agriculture. 01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:33.219 Now, it's possible that if they could do it cheaply 01:00:33.219 --> 01:00:36.659 and so forth, that is a possibility, but I think 01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:39.420 it's an extremely remote one. Here's what Cargill 01:00:39.420 --> 01:00:41.800 said. Now, they're an investor in Memphis Meats. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:45.199 Quote, Cargill is committed to growing our protein 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.239 portfolio. This includes investing in and growing 01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:51.579 our traditional animal protein businesses. Our 01:00:51.579 --> 01:00:54.500 commitment is reinforced by nearly $600 million 01:00:54.500 --> 01:00:57.599 in recent investments in conventional protein, 01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:00.639 meaning factory farming, in North America alone, 01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:03.559 including acquisition of five -star custom foods, 01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:06.380 modernization of our turkey hatchery in Virginia, 01:01:06.739 --> 01:01:08.780 the conversion of our Columbus Nebraska plant 01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:11.239 into a cooked meats facility, and on and on and 01:01:11.239 --> 01:01:16.530 on. They say this underscores This further underscores 01:01:16.530 --> 01:01:19.429 Cargill's overarching commitment to animal protein. 01:01:20.210 --> 01:01:23.829 At Cargill, we recognize that meat is a core 01:01:23.829 --> 01:01:26.630 part of consumer diets, central to many cultures 01:01:26.630 --> 01:01:30.050 and traditions. Our traditional proteins as well 01:01:30.050 --> 01:01:32.349 as new innovations like cultured meats are both 01:01:32.539 --> 01:01:36.260 necessary to meet that demand. What Leah didn't 01:01:36.260 --> 01:01:39.000 mention is that, no, the desire for meat is not 01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.719 natural. It's actually marketed. And these companies, 01:01:41.900 --> 01:01:43.920 like Cargill, spend billions of dollars to make 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:47.059 people want to buy the meat. So it's creating 01:01:47.059 --> 01:01:49.760 the demand. And these are the people who are 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.699 supposed to trust. And we see the same thing 01:01:52.699 --> 01:01:57.409 with the Danone Company. pronged strategy, a 01:01:57.409 --> 01:01:59.949 dual track strategy. There is room for dairy 01:01:59.949 --> 01:02:02.469 alternatives and milk products. Our data shows 01:02:02.469 --> 01:02:04.710 that both milk alternatives as well as dairy 01:02:04.710 --> 01:02:08.670 products can perform well and not necessarily 01:02:08.670 --> 01:02:11.289 take share from one another. That in turn suggests 01:02:11.289 --> 01:02:15.110 that consumers can be swayed either way. So basically, 01:02:15.210 --> 01:02:17.150 this is how the future looks to maple farms. 01:02:17.210 --> 01:02:18.670 They're going to have ham, and then they're going 01:02:18.670 --> 01:02:21.650 to have field roast vegan. They're going to preserve 01:02:21.650 --> 01:02:24.329 this. There's no intention. There's nothing that 01:02:24.329 --> 01:02:27.010 suggests they're going to get away from it. The 01:02:27.010 --> 01:02:30.909 introduction of a versimilitude in a commodity 01:02:30.909 --> 01:02:34.389 does not have anything to do with how it changes 01:02:34.389 --> 01:02:39.320 consumption. Faux fur has been around for decades. 01:02:39.460 --> 01:02:41.639 And guess what? Fur consumption is increasing. 01:02:41.719 --> 01:02:44.280 I've never seen so much fur. This is actually 01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:48.539 fake fur. This has not replaced real fur, just 01:02:48.539 --> 01:02:51.159 as the meat, the synthetic meat, is not going 01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:53.960 to replace the other meat. It's going to come 01:02:53.960 --> 01:02:57.380 right along with it. Now, the last thing I wanted 01:02:57.380 --> 01:03:00.219 to say, almost the last thing, is that the clean 01:03:00.219 --> 01:03:02.480 meat is the strategy of robbing Peter to pay 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:04.900 Paul, and Vasili touched on this. But if you 01:03:04.900 --> 01:03:07.500 buy, say, recycled papers, I do, from Georgia 01:03:07.500 --> 01:03:10.079 Pacific, you're actually supporting Koch Enterprises, 01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:12.340 which is to say the Koch brothers, who own Georgia 01:03:12.340 --> 01:03:15.659 Pacific. So every time we try to do the right 01:03:15.659 --> 01:03:17.380 thing and buy a field roast burger, we're actually 01:03:17.380 --> 01:03:20.059 supporting factory farming. Cargill which has 01:03:20.059 --> 01:03:22.179 been come up come up for praise one of the leading 01:03:22.179 --> 01:03:25.460 companies involved in deforestation right the 01:03:25.460 --> 01:03:28.840 homelessness of orangutans and others and Finally, 01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:31.159 it's not going to work if you take ethics off 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:33.039 the table There's no longer a compelling reason 01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:35.300 to buy the synthetic meats in the first place 01:03:35.300 --> 01:03:36.960 and as Vasili said they're not it's not even 01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:39.619 clear It's that sustainable and basically you're 01:03:39.619 --> 01:03:41.219 gonna leave consumers with the choice Do they 01:03:41.219 --> 01:03:43.019 want the real thing or they're gonna want the 01:03:43.019 --> 01:03:45.059 synthetic thing? Well, especially if they're 01:03:45.059 --> 01:03:47.199 comparably priced they're gonna want the real 01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:49.260 thing most of the time or half the time or a 01:03:49.260 --> 01:03:51.099 quarter of the time, whatever. But we're talking 01:03:51.099 --> 01:03:53.340 about billions and billions and billions of animals. 01:03:54.460 --> 01:03:57.619 So the last thing I wanted to say is, then what 01:03:57.619 --> 01:03:59.800 is all of this about, you know, fundamentally? 01:04:00.099 --> 01:04:03.099 And I think it really is about this, actually. 01:04:04.579 --> 01:04:10.280 You know, I really do. What's a pirate? No, I 01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:13.239 have two sentences, two sentences. So the new 01:04:13.239 --> 01:04:15.440 meets lobby, including these venture capitalist 01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:18.150 firms, are going to make their investors a ton 01:04:18.150 --> 01:04:21.630 of money. As the new crop capital's chief investment 01:04:21.630 --> 01:04:24.190 officer, Chris Kerr said, quote, we will be rich 01:04:24.190 --> 01:04:26.630 no matter what. That's a direct quote, Bruce, 01:04:26.789 --> 01:04:29.090 from Chris Kerr. We will be rich no matter what. 01:04:29.550 --> 01:04:32.269 We are being treated as fools. They get the gold, 01:04:32.429 --> 01:04:44.050 and the animals lose. Thank you. OK. Wow. Lively. 01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:49.880 I'm feeling like, I was going to get right into 01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:52.099 questions, but I want to check in with the panel. 01:04:52.400 --> 01:04:56.000 And I wonder if either side would like to just 01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.619 have five minutes to respond to what was said. 01:05:00.780 --> 01:05:07.219 It feels like we might want to clear up a little 01:05:07.219 --> 01:05:09.860 bit. I don't know. I just saw a lot of frantic 01:05:09.860 --> 01:05:15.869 notes being taken and all that. So does any side 01:05:15.869 --> 01:05:17.949 want to take just five minutes to respond to 01:05:17.949 --> 01:05:23.590 anything that was said? Bruce, go ahead. So for 01:05:23.590 --> 01:05:26.030 people who don't know, I was at People for the 01:05:26.030 --> 01:05:29.449 Ethical Treatment of Animals for 15 years, Vice 01:05:29.449 --> 01:05:32.010 President of Campaigns for PETA. I put together 01:05:32.010 --> 01:05:34.769 the Meet Your Meat video, put together the Paul 01:05:34.769 --> 01:05:37.730 McCartney Glass Walls video. What I expected 01:05:37.730 --> 01:05:40.929 to be discussing was what John said. That was 01:05:40.929 --> 01:05:43.070 pretty much what I assume both sides would say. 01:05:43.969 --> 01:05:47.289 I just want to say PETA came out in favor of 01:05:47.289 --> 01:05:52.150 and has been vigorously supportive of clean meat 01:05:52.150 --> 01:05:56.289 for probably 15 years since it was just sort 01:05:56.289 --> 01:06:00.170 of a pipe dream and has continued to be vigorously 01:06:00.170 --> 01:06:03.280 supportive. I'm not familiar with any. animal 01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:05.119 rights organization that has come out against 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:07.199 it. The Humane League has come out in favor. 01:06:07.380 --> 01:06:09.380 Mercy for Animals has come out in favor. Animal 01:06:09.380 --> 01:06:11.519 Equality has come out in favor. The Humane Society 01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:15.519 has come out in favor. If anything that Vlas 01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:19.820 said in his first 12 minutes were true, none 01:06:19.820 --> 01:06:21.579 of those organizations would have come out in 01:06:21.579 --> 01:06:25.179 favor of it. None of them. So you either have 01:06:25.179 --> 01:06:31.159 to believe that Ingrid and David and Leah and 01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:36.000 me who's dedicating my life to this, either we're 01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:38.539 willing to sacrifice animals for the greater 01:06:38.539 --> 01:06:41.820 good, which we're not, or we're stupid, which 01:06:41.820 --> 01:06:44.340 we're not, or we didn't do due diligence and 01:06:44.340 --> 01:06:46.239 just didn't realize all the things that he said, 01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:49.699 which isn't the case. All of the organizations 01:06:49.699 --> 01:06:54.159 and I and Leah did due diligence on the technology 01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:58.489 and really just None of it's true. So that's 01:06:58.489 --> 01:07:00.969 the first thing to say. I am just in the interest 01:07:00.969 --> 01:07:04.130 of sort of settling everything, going to just 01:07:04.130 --> 01:07:06.070 sort of knock down each of the things to tell 01:07:06.070 --> 01:07:10.050 you what our position is. Does it harm the planet? 01:07:10.150 --> 01:07:13.969 Well, the LCA that he said the in vitro meat 01:07:13.969 --> 01:07:18.469 industry had funded came out in 2011. And the 01:07:18.469 --> 01:07:22.329 in vitro meat industry raised its first $50 ,000 01:07:22.329 --> 01:07:26.780 in 2015. and so had not existed for four years 01:07:26.780 --> 01:07:29.219 at that point. There really isn't an in vitro 01:07:29.219 --> 01:07:33.159 meat industry. The clean meat companies so far 01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:35.820 have raised about $70 million, some total across 01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:38.739 all of them. Very little of that so far has come 01:07:38.739 --> 01:07:40.820 from the meat industry, although we're optimistic 01:07:40.820 --> 01:07:44.599 that a lot more will. The LCAs that exist, I 01:07:44.599 --> 01:07:46.880 do agree with him that there aren't many of them 01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:50.300 and they aren't very good. I'm sorry, life cycle 01:07:50.300 --> 01:07:55.750 analyses. Yeah, the environmental impact assessments, 01:07:55.750 --> 01:08:00.010 I apologize. But the study that he cited, which 01:08:00.010 --> 01:08:02.090 I was really very surprised by, the study where 01:08:02.090 --> 01:08:05.190 he said the CO2 requirements of clean meat are 01:08:05.190 --> 01:08:07.789 so high and consequently clean meat will actually 01:08:07.789 --> 01:08:10.730 be worse for the environment. This is a study 01:08:10.730 --> 01:08:14.050 that came out maybe three weeks ago and it said 01:08:14.050 --> 01:08:18.409 at the thousand -year mark in one of the four 01:08:18.409 --> 01:08:22.210 scenarios that they studied starting in 800 years. 01:08:22.460 --> 01:08:25.380 clean meat will be worse than industrial animal 01:08:25.380 --> 01:08:28.579 meat. But the main point that the Good Food Institute 01:08:28.579 --> 01:08:31.180 has made, and if you Google the Good Food Institute 01:08:31.180 --> 01:08:34.500 and life cycle analyses, or my name and life 01:08:34.500 --> 01:08:37.100 cycle analyses, or if you just go to gfi .org 01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:39.359 upslash blog, I think it's like three or four 01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:41.680 blogs down, you'll see our analysis of this. 01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:44.539 It's a little bit like predicting the life cycle, 01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:46.739 the environmental impact of something like an 01:08:46.739 --> 01:08:50.550 iPhone 10 years before there was an iPhone. Basically, 01:08:50.590 --> 01:08:53.029 what's happening is that we are extrapolating 01:08:53.029 --> 01:08:56.630 from medical therapies, which is what tissue 01:08:56.630 --> 01:09:00.090 engineering is being used for now, taking that 01:09:00.090 --> 01:09:03.649 process, applying it to food, and saying that's 01:09:03.649 --> 01:09:07.109 the best it's going to get, which is simply not 01:09:07.109 --> 01:09:09.869 the case. And the price thing is like attacking 01:09:09.869 --> 01:09:15.609 the iPhone in 2012. Both Voss and John said both, 01:09:15.789 --> 01:09:17.890 it's not going to work. It's not going to save 01:09:17.890 --> 01:09:21.180 animals. and it's going to make the meat industry 01:09:21.180 --> 01:09:24.340 insanely profitable. You kind of have to choose 01:09:24.340 --> 01:09:26.600 between those two things, it seems to me. I'll 01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:33.600 give you one more minute, Bruce. Okay. Fetal 01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:36.439 bovine serum. That was going to be my first question, 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:39.220 so if you've got anything else. Okay. There are 01:09:39.220 --> 01:09:45.170 no animal experiments. Oh, yeah. I started two 01:09:45.170 --> 01:09:46.970 venture capital funds by recruiting the people 01:09:46.970 --> 01:09:49.369 who run them, both Chris Kerr and Kurt Albright. 01:09:49.529 --> 01:09:51.149 The guys who run the two venture capital firms 01:09:51.149 --> 01:09:53.090 are longtime animal rights activists, animal 01:09:53.090 --> 01:09:56.250 rights philanthropists, and vegans. I have no, 01:09:56.750 --> 01:09:59.029 absolutely no. I'm not a principal. I have absolutely 01:09:59.029 --> 01:10:00.510 no interest in either of them, although I am 01:10:00.510 --> 01:10:03.289 an advisor to both of them. The idea of ethics 01:10:03.289 --> 01:10:05.170 off the table, I mean, that's just we want meat 01:10:05.170 --> 01:10:07.689 not to be associated with animals. We want people 01:10:07.689 --> 01:10:09.470 when they are eating meat, like when people take 01:10:09.470 --> 01:10:11.229 insulin now. Does anybody think people shouldn't 01:10:11.229 --> 01:10:14.640 take synthetic insulin? We want to take ethics 01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:17.220 off the table. So when he says not clean meat 01:10:17.220 --> 01:10:19.340 but no meat, the main thing I want to say is 01:10:19.340 --> 01:10:22.739 how is that going for us? How is that going? 01:10:22.960 --> 01:10:25.619 Highest per capita meat consumption 2018, 2019 01:10:25.619 --> 01:10:28.760 is going to be even higher. Nobody has a scenario 01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:32.279 for how education turns back the clock. But both 01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:33.939 of them said over and over, this is going to 01:10:33.939 --> 01:10:36.579 make the meat industry a ton of money. It probably 01:10:36.579 --> 01:10:39.220 will make the meat industry a ton of money because 01:10:39.220 --> 01:10:41.470 it's more efficient. So the idea that they're 01:10:41.470 --> 01:10:45.289 going to be doing 50 -50 blends, how many people 01:10:45.289 --> 01:10:48.489 are riding around by horse and carriage? How 01:10:48.489 --> 01:10:53.630 many pictures are you taking not on your digital 01:10:53.630 --> 01:10:56.250 camera? How much communication is happening with 01:10:56.250 --> 01:10:59.329 landlines? As this scales up, it's going to be 01:10:59.329 --> 01:11:02.729 less expensive. Maybe there are cattle ranchers 01:11:02.729 --> 01:11:05.189 and dairy farmers who actually like the fact 01:11:05.189 --> 01:11:07.010 that they're working with animals, but none of 01:11:07.010 --> 01:11:09.369 the executives at Tyson and Purdue and Smithfield 01:11:09.369 --> 01:11:13.279 and Hormel, For none of them is the idea of factory 01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:14.960 farming and slaughterhouses, the reason they 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:17.479 get up in the morning. If you meet these people, 01:11:17.680 --> 01:11:19.180 they're like all of our families and friends 01:11:19.180 --> 01:11:21.720 who eat meat. They really do want to provide 01:11:21.720 --> 01:11:23.800 high -quality protein to the world. They went 01:11:23.800 --> 01:11:25.640 to business school. They got the job at Tyson 01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:28.100 or Purdue or Hormel. They could have just as 01:11:28.100 --> 01:11:32.399 easily been just about anyplace else. Yes, a 01:11:32.399 --> 01:11:34.420 capitalist economy, which is what I thought we 01:11:34.420 --> 01:11:37.609 were going to be talking about. We get to animal 01:11:37.609 --> 01:11:39.909 liberation. This is how we take ethics off the 01:11:39.909 --> 01:11:43.409 table. This is how we make meat harmless. And 01:11:43.409 --> 01:11:45.470 if we care about animals, think about the animals 01:11:45.470 --> 01:11:47.409 on the factory farms, think about the animals 01:11:47.409 --> 01:11:49.869 in the slaughterhouses. Do you want 70 % more 01:11:49.869 --> 01:11:51.229 of them dead in 2050? I'm going to wrap you up, 01:11:51.350 --> 01:11:59.250 Bruce. OK. Thank you. So I'm going to give this 01:11:59.250 --> 01:12:01.329 side one of you five minutes, and then we're 01:12:01.329 --> 01:12:06.579 going to get into questions to respond. Okay, 01:12:06.699 --> 01:12:09.760 that's fine. This is a now response to what you 01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:12.079 heard from the introductions. So let me just 01:12:12.079 --> 01:12:14.640 say one thing briefly. I just want everyone to 01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:17.819 know, I personally respect Bruce a great deal. 01:12:18.279 --> 01:12:20.399 And I think most people here do. And I'm just 01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:22.380 now meeting Leah, but I personally respect her. 01:12:22.699 --> 01:12:24.520 And I respect every animal rights organization 01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:27.520 out there. I respect every vegan out there. There's 01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:37.720 not that many of us. I, you know, I disagree 01:12:37.720 --> 01:12:40.300 with this topic and I think that there has been 01:12:40.300 --> 01:12:43.500 some mistakes that have been made. I don't think 01:12:43.500 --> 01:12:47.020 that people are fundamentally different in their 01:12:47.020 --> 01:12:50.279 hearts. I'm just trying to highlight some information. 01:12:51.180 --> 01:12:53.640 So one part of information I'm trying to highlight 01:12:53.640 --> 01:12:57.699 is the preponderance of peer -reviewed research 01:12:57.699 --> 01:13:00.699 that has been done on in vitro meat. So you can 01:13:00.699 --> 01:13:03.359 go to the Good Food Institute. They have a white 01:13:03.359 --> 01:13:06.159 paper. So, and don't trust me, Google it on your 01:13:06.159 --> 01:13:09.359 phone. You can do Good Food Institute, White 01:13:09.359 --> 01:13:13.020 Paper, Clean Meat. They cite three and a half 01:13:13.020 --> 01:13:16.579 studies in favor of the environmental benefit 01:13:16.579 --> 01:13:19.479 of clean meat. Very briefly, I'll go through 01:13:19.479 --> 01:13:23.060 them. So, the first one they cite is the one 01:13:23.060 --> 01:13:27.380 he mentioned from 2011. This is the only positive 01:13:27.380 --> 01:13:30.399 study. As earlier discussed, it was created by 01:13:30.399 --> 01:13:32.479 a graduate student, and that doesn't mean graduate 01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:35.380 students can't do great work. They do. But it 01:13:35.380 --> 01:13:37.500 does mean that there might be some mistakes that 01:13:37.500 --> 01:13:40.659 cropped in. It was funded by the in vitro media 01:13:40.659 --> 01:13:43.420 industry. Maybe that wasn't a precise term. But 01:13:43.420 --> 01:13:45.579 what happened is New Harvest, and you can Google 01:13:45.579 --> 01:13:48.199 New Harvest, take a look. They put out money 01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:50.239 and they said, hey, we want to fund the study. 01:13:50.979 --> 01:13:54.640 Now, it's not the case that funding studies always 01:13:54.640 --> 01:13:56.899 makes bias. But there's better and worse ways 01:13:56.899 --> 01:13:59.539 to do it. And New Harvest did the worst possible 01:13:59.539 --> 01:14:02.579 one. They said, we have some money. and we're 01:14:02.579 --> 01:14:06.000 going to look at all the applications. And then 01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:09.439 after you've applied to us, we're going to choose 01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:11.720 who does the studies, and we're going to choose 01:14:11.720 --> 01:14:15.720 which methodology we support. So that is the 01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:19.579 most amount of bias that you can interject into 01:14:19.579 --> 01:14:22.859 a study. And this was by an organization which 01:14:22.859 --> 01:14:26.960 explicitly wants to promote in vitro meat. That's 01:14:26.960 --> 01:14:29.319 who funded the study. If you take a look at the 01:14:29.319 --> 01:14:32.609 paper, It says it's funded by them at the bottom 01:14:32.609 --> 01:14:35.609 of the paper. It is also on their website. So 01:14:35.609 --> 01:14:40.729 this is not in debate so as I mentioned the study 01:14:40.729 --> 01:14:44.050 had multiple thought it wasn't an actual Lifecycle 01:14:44.050 --> 01:14:46.850 analysis because it doesn't ask light it had 01:14:46.850 --> 01:14:49.649 thought experiments And I mentioned one that 01:14:49.649 --> 01:14:51.770 was untrue and we have time in the questions 01:14:51.770 --> 01:14:54.670 later I can tell you how the other thought experiments 01:14:54.670 --> 01:14:58.810 were all not also possible one of them included 01:14:58.810 --> 01:15:01.479 the statement that she didn't need to consider 01:15:01.479 --> 01:15:05.180 the energy that was needed for the bioreactors 01:15:05.180 --> 01:15:09.300 because cells make heat, even though that's actually 01:15:09.300 --> 01:15:14.079 one of the primary areas that produces GHG. So 01:15:14.079 --> 01:15:17.100 it's a flawed study. And then if I have time 01:15:17.100 --> 01:15:18.600 later in the questions, I can go through the 01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:20.840 rest of the white paper and explain to you how 01:15:20.840 --> 01:15:24.060 each of the studies they cite actually concludes 01:15:24.060 --> 01:15:26.960 that in vitro meat would be more harmful to the 01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:30.659 planet. then pot then all forms of chicken or 01:15:30.659 --> 01:15:34.439 pork and possibly beef and Certainly worse than 01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:38.760 any kind of plant -based alternative. Thank you 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:45.840 I Just wanted to briefly comment on the horse 01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:48.659 thing because Bruce I've seen you give that talk 01:15:48.659 --> 01:15:50.520 on your TED talk and so we're making that point 01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:55.359 about horses In the horse carriage, yeah, right 01:15:55.359 --> 01:15:59.460 horses transfer, you know Many, many, many more 01:15:59.460 --> 01:16:01.899 animals have been killed and mutilated by Henry 01:16:01.899 --> 01:16:04.939 Ford's innovation than ever died through the 01:16:04.939 --> 01:16:08.479 horse and carriage business. So you have to be 01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:11.659 aware of the unintended consequences of technology 01:16:11.659 --> 01:16:15.039 when they're in the hands of very powerful people 01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:16.859 and where there's no democratic accountability. 01:16:17.079 --> 01:16:20.000 Henry Ford, of course, who's been kind of lionized 01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:22.699 here, was a notorious anti -Semite, you know, 01:16:22.840 --> 01:16:26.439 buddy, very friendly with Hitler, you know, treated 01:16:26.439 --> 01:16:29.939 the workers terribly, etc. My point is that you 01:16:29.939 --> 01:16:32.439 can't, we can't just assume that a market mechanism 01:16:32.439 --> 01:16:35.640 is going to correct a moral problem. It won't. 01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:39.510 It hasn't. Capitalism has destroyed two -thirds 01:16:39.510 --> 01:16:42.069 of all animal life in the last 40 years, according 01:16:42.069 --> 01:16:45.369 to the World Wildlife Federation. destroyed, 01:16:45.529 --> 01:16:48.689 being killed by this metastatic system. So to 01:16:48.689 --> 01:16:52.069 think, regardless of what the particular individual's 01:16:52.069 --> 01:16:53.930 moral character are at the head of Tyson and 01:16:53.930 --> 01:16:55.569 Purdue and so forth, I don't know these people. 01:16:56.050 --> 01:16:57.470 But I can tell you, just look at their record. 01:16:57.670 --> 01:17:01.750 Look at the undercover investigations by PETA 01:17:01.750 --> 01:17:04.670 and so forth of the horrific abuses of animals 01:17:04.670 --> 01:17:06.890 by these companies. Are these people going to 01:17:06.890 --> 01:17:09.829 be trusted? No. What's going to happen is meat 01:17:09.829 --> 01:17:13.909 consumption per capita is going to probably go 01:17:13.909 --> 01:17:15.489 up because they're going to market more of this 01:17:15.489 --> 01:17:17.449 stuff. And what I think is going to happen is 01:17:17.449 --> 01:17:20.189 that, yes, there's potentially fewer animals 01:17:20.189 --> 01:17:22.130 suffering, but it's going to bottom out at a 01:17:22.130 --> 01:17:23.869 certain price point. And then you're going to 01:17:23.869 --> 01:17:27.689 have both factory farmed flesh available and 01:17:27.689 --> 01:17:30.670 the synthetic meat, and it's going to go on. 01:17:30.909 --> 01:17:33.210 And that's why Vasili and I feel strongly that 01:17:33.210 --> 01:17:37.810 it's a mistaken strategy. We're not impugning 01:17:37.810 --> 01:17:40.310 motives here, but we are saying that it's a very 01:17:40.310 --> 01:17:49.840 mistaken strategy. Thank you. Okay, so we're 01:17:49.840 --> 01:17:52.359 gonna get into some questions. We're really I 01:17:52.359 --> 01:17:54.840 mean, it's it's so fascinating and amazing and 01:17:54.840 --> 01:17:58.119 and we're the time is just ticking away so I 01:17:58.119 --> 01:18:04.170 want to get into the specific question of the 01:18:04.170 --> 01:18:08.229 concern with the embryonic, the fetal bovine 01:18:08.229 --> 01:18:13.229 serum, using that as the medium right now. I've 01:18:13.229 --> 01:18:15.770 also heard that horse serum is used, chicken 01:18:15.770 --> 01:18:19.470 embryo extract, things like this. I'm not sure 01:18:19.470 --> 01:18:22.550 how accurate that is, so I'm asking the panel. 01:18:25.719 --> 01:18:28.619 Basically, what is the likelihood that this is 01:18:28.619 --> 01:18:34.020 going to continue? I would hope that, you know, 01:18:34.399 --> 01:18:37.439 that we're working towards not using these, but 01:18:37.439 --> 01:18:43.340 right now it's the best media to use. And you, 01:18:43.520 --> 01:18:47.779 you know, by the pro -side zone admission, you 01:18:47.779 --> 01:18:49.899 know, these people aren't in it for the animals, 01:18:50.020 --> 01:18:55.800 a lot of them. So how can we guarantee that these 01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:59.460 things are going to move towards a more ethical 01:18:59.460 --> 01:19:03.560 vegan process and only use vegan methods and 01:19:03.560 --> 01:19:08.960 medias? And this kind of goes into one of the 01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:12.140 audience's question that says that I'm concerned 01:19:12.140 --> 01:19:14.380 about the animals who will be used for lab -grown 01:19:14.380 --> 01:19:16.659 meat. How will these animals live and be treated? 01:19:19.890 --> 01:19:21.630 Leah, do you want to start since you haven't 01:19:21.630 --> 01:19:26.810 spoken for a bit? Yeah. Well, I'm confused about 01:19:26.810 --> 01:19:30.590 the animals that are used because there was a 01:19:30.590 --> 01:19:33.789 great video that came out created by Just, and 01:19:33.789 --> 01:19:36.989 it was called Ian the Chicken. Did anybody see 01:19:36.989 --> 01:19:42.109 that video? So the whole process was there was 01:19:42.109 --> 01:19:45.529 a chicken named Ian, a feather had fallen. They 01:19:45.529 --> 01:19:48.189 picked up the feather. They extracted the cell 01:19:48.189 --> 01:19:51.520 from the feather. And then they grew the meat 01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:55.020 from this fallen feather. Then they made a nugget. 01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:58.300 They ate the chicken while Ian was wandering 01:19:58.300 --> 01:20:02.340 around. Right? So there's no animal harmed in 01:20:02.340 --> 01:20:06.460 the process, in that process, right? And Bruce 01:20:06.460 --> 01:20:08.819 can answer this better than I can about the serum. 01:20:09.300 --> 01:20:11.699 So am I right that Memphis Meats, are any of 01:20:11.699 --> 01:20:13.100 the company, well you probably should answer 01:20:13.100 --> 01:20:14.800 this question better about the serum. I'll let 01:20:14.800 --> 01:20:17.279 him answer the serum. Because the direction is 01:20:17.279 --> 01:20:19.619 we're not going to use bovine serum. And none 01:20:19.619 --> 01:20:22.359 of it is coming to market yet. Nothing's on market. 01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:24.739 You can't purchase this anywhere. And all of 01:20:24.739 --> 01:20:27.699 the research is looking at a total plant -based 01:20:27.699 --> 01:20:31.319 solution to feed them. And that's every company's 01:20:31.319 --> 01:20:34.060 objective right now, is to only use a plant -based 01:20:34.060 --> 01:20:38.460 serum. So the technology that they're borrowing 01:20:38.460 --> 01:20:41.739 is from cancer research, where, of course, they 01:20:41.739 --> 01:20:43.680 didn't think about that. And they are using bovine 01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:45.960 serum. And that's where the research they're 01:20:45.960 --> 01:20:48.470 borrowing. That's the knowledge to date. But 01:20:48.470 --> 01:20:51.029 all of the work is around finding a plant -based 01:20:51.029 --> 01:20:54.029 solution 100 percent and not using, none of us 01:20:54.029 --> 01:20:57.329 would. Do you think that Bruce and I, collectively 01:20:57.329 --> 01:21:00.630 we have 40 years of animal rights activism between 01:21:00.630 --> 01:21:03.510 us. Would we be supporting that? Absolutely not. 01:21:04.369 --> 01:21:08.050 No way. I also want to point out there's been 01:21:08.050 --> 01:21:10.250 the heads of these companies, they don't really 01:21:10.250 --> 01:21:12.930 care about the animals. That is also not true. 01:21:13.650 --> 01:21:16.250 The head of Memphis Meats is a vegan, he's a 01:21:16.250 --> 01:21:18.409 cardiologist, he cares deeply about animals. 01:21:18.989 --> 01:21:21.310 The head of Just is a vegan, he's an activist, 01:21:21.390 --> 01:21:24.270 he cares deeply about animals. The people who 01:21:24.270 --> 01:21:26.649 are starting these companies, I know them personally, 01:21:26.869 --> 01:21:28.810 care deeply about animals. Because I was talking 01:21:28.810 --> 01:21:30.930 more about Big Ag and Tyson that's getting into 01:21:30.930 --> 01:21:33.630 it and Cargill. Right. Okay. Well, they're investing 01:21:33.630 --> 01:21:35.529 in it because it looks lucrative and they're 01:21:35.529 --> 01:21:37.810 threatened by this and they only care about the 01:21:37.810 --> 01:21:39.630 bottom line and they want to make sure they stay 01:21:39.630 --> 01:21:42.890 in business as the trend. Goes away from this. 01:21:43.069 --> 01:21:46.029 I also I didn't put this in my slides, but there's 01:21:46.029 --> 01:21:49.569 a reality that those businesses are seeing Which 01:21:49.569 --> 01:21:53.770 is arable land is running out So when we have 01:21:53.770 --> 01:21:56.750 a chicken, it's not just the environmental impact 01:21:56.750 --> 01:21:58.590 of raising that chicken in that spot There's 01:21:58.590 --> 01:22:01.329 all of the soy and the grains that are being 01:22:01.329 --> 01:22:04.949 raised and we are running out of land arable 01:22:04.949 --> 01:22:09.270 land We it's just a math problem. We literally 01:22:09.270 --> 01:22:11.840 cannot eat that much meat in the future But people 01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:13.239 are still demanding it. So we're just going to 01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:14.680 run our plan into the ground if we don't come 01:22:14.680 --> 01:22:16.039 up with a solution. If you don't care about the 01:22:16.039 --> 01:22:19.479 animals, the future of our planet is not going 01:22:19.479 --> 01:22:22.260 in a good direction. And one other thing I just 01:22:22.260 --> 01:22:24.319 want to say, well, I didn't get a chance to respond, 01:22:25.060 --> 01:22:29.920 is I get what it feels like to be angry about 01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:33.760 these things. I really loved Renee's talk. And 01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:38.520 I've worked with factory farmers turned activists. 01:22:42.580 --> 01:22:46.699 Bruce is going to that she put Yes, Bruce is 01:22:46.699 --> 01:22:48.819 going to she said that she didn't have the knowledge 01:22:48.819 --> 01:22:50.779 is gonna Let Bruce answer it and now she's making 01:22:50.779 --> 01:22:52.760 a response because she didn't get to speak earlier 01:22:52.760 --> 01:22:54.420 So now she's responding to some of the things 01:22:54.420 --> 01:22:56.140 that were said earlier We're gonna get that that 01:22:56.140 --> 01:22:58.399 response from Bruce Go ahead promise that answer 01:22:58.399 --> 01:23:00.640 and I did answer it I said that plant -based 01:23:00.640 --> 01:23:03.680 serum is being looked at that is where we're 01:23:03.680 --> 01:23:05.779 headed is we're getting plant and most of the 01:23:05.779 --> 01:23:08.279 companies are that's all of their R &D is devoted 01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:11.300 to plant -based solution not the bovine fetal 01:23:11.300 --> 01:23:14.239 solution They're all looking at that. It's not 01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:18.140 the future. And I said that cancer research used 01:23:18.140 --> 01:23:21.359 bovine and all the cancer research, the organ 01:23:21.359 --> 01:23:23.680 transplant research was all using the bovine 01:23:23.680 --> 01:23:25.859 serum. And that's where we started to get the 01:23:25.859 --> 01:23:27.659 science and the ideas to be able to do this. 01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:30.300 But that's not where we're going. And none of 01:23:30.300 --> 01:23:32.079 these companies, they're all looking at plant 01:23:32.079 --> 01:23:34.800 -based only serums. So maybe you'll just answer 01:23:34.800 --> 01:23:37.260 that. Well, Leah, please finish what you were 01:23:37.260 --> 01:23:39.100 going to say. It's OK. Well, I would just say 01:23:39.100 --> 01:23:45.199 that I have been an angry activist for 20 years 01:23:45.199 --> 01:23:48.439 where I'm just beating my head. The industry 01:23:48.439 --> 01:23:52.460 sucks. They're not doing the right thing. It 01:23:52.460 --> 01:23:56.500 feels good. I think Renee, you said angry doesn't 01:23:56.500 --> 01:24:00.640 change them. We're not going to change anybody 01:24:00.640 --> 01:24:04.760 by being angry. We have to put ourselves in their 01:24:04.760 --> 01:24:07.739 shoes. We're not in charge of one animal, not 01:24:07.739 --> 01:24:10.449 one. Not one of us are in charge of those animals 01:24:10.449 --> 01:24:12.329 that Tyson are overseeing. So you have to put 01:24:12.329 --> 01:24:15.409 yourselves in Tyson's shoes and say, what's going 01:24:15.409 --> 01:24:20.210 to make them stop killing animals? Not like I'm 01:24:20.210 --> 01:24:21.850 angry they're killing them, I'm angry they're 01:24:21.850 --> 01:24:23.489 capitalist, we could have a whole debate. We're 01:24:23.489 --> 01:24:25.210 not actually debating capitalism here today. 01:24:25.210 --> 01:24:27.609 I'd love to do that debate, but that's not the 01:24:27.609 --> 01:24:29.729 one for today, so let's just put that aside. 01:24:31.130 --> 01:24:35.130 But you have to. This is my life, is trying to 01:24:35.130 --> 01:24:37.710 think about. How do we stop Tyson from wanting 01:24:37.710 --> 01:24:40.270 to slaughter animals? And it's not going to be 01:24:40.270 --> 01:24:43.069 me sitting in the room yelling at them about 01:24:43.069 --> 01:24:46.250 be ethical. Why aren't you ethical? It's not 01:24:46.250 --> 01:24:51.770 working. One more minute. OK, great. All right, 01:24:51.890 --> 01:25:00.800 so Bruce. Bruce and just about if you can in 01:25:00.800 --> 01:25:04.680 like three minutes Let us know about that the 01:25:04.680 --> 01:25:07.420 you know the bovine serum like I've heard chicken 01:25:07.420 --> 01:25:11.100 embryo extract all these animal Products that 01:25:11.100 --> 01:25:13.960 I have heard are being used in this process. 01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:16.239 What's up with that? Well, I'm not familiar with 01:25:16.239 --> 01:25:21.020 chicken embryo extracts But fetal bovine serum, 01:25:21.020 --> 01:25:23.539 I mean you can get a longer explanation of FBS 01:25:23.539 --> 01:25:26.760 by googling my name and FBS I have an article 01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:30.649 about why This is, as Leah said, this is therapeutics 01:25:30.649 --> 01:25:33.909 applied to food. You have to test every single 01:25:33.909 --> 01:25:37.829 batch of FBS. FBS inclusion is part of the reason 01:25:37.829 --> 01:25:40.970 that the life cycle analysis, the environmental 01:25:40.970 --> 01:25:45.609 assessments that Vas was talking about are bad, 01:25:45.829 --> 01:25:48.670 which if you read our white paper, it goes into 01:25:48.670 --> 01:25:52.090 why their extrapolations are not extrapolations. 01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:55.359 to a technology that actually works. So it's 01:25:55.359 --> 01:25:57.779 certainly possible that when they said clean 01:25:57.779 --> 01:25:59.739 meat isn't going to work, that's certainly possible. 01:25:59.819 --> 01:26:01.579 We don't know if it's going to be able to scale 01:26:01.579 --> 01:26:04.340 up. If it does scale up, it will be the exact 01:26:04.340 --> 01:26:07.460 same product, and it will cost less, which means 01:26:07.460 --> 01:26:10.600 that it'll be like insulin. Insulin is not used. 01:26:11.000 --> 01:26:13.220 It doesn't come from pigs anymore. It used to 01:26:13.220 --> 01:26:15.420 come from pigs. And we will just completely take 01:26:15.420 --> 01:26:19.739 away the idea that meat comes from animals. Multiple 01:26:19.739 --> 01:26:22.739 companies are not using FBS now. Just isn't using 01:26:22.739 --> 01:26:26.500 FBS. Memphis Meats isn't using FBS. FBS is Fetal 01:26:26.500 --> 01:26:29.500 Bovine Serum. Fetal Bovine Serum. And as Leah 01:26:29.500 --> 01:26:32.539 said, all the companies want to move away from 01:26:32.539 --> 01:26:34.420 it as quickly as possible. It won't be used at 01:26:34.420 --> 01:26:37.340 commercialization. Plant solution. Yeah. Yeah. 01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:42.439 FBS is FBS. We can Google it. Sorry? I would 01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:44.720 like to know how we can actually get documentation 01:26:44.720 --> 01:26:46.680 of that statement you just made. I mean, you 01:26:46.680 --> 01:26:49.079 do have to believe the companies. So I mean, 01:26:49.840 --> 01:26:52.260 you have to believe Just, which is run by vegans, 01:26:52.460 --> 01:26:54.899 and Memphis, which is run by vegans. But if you 01:26:54.899 --> 01:26:58.199 look at my paper, you can see just for what Leah 01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:02.180 says, which is just that FBS is extremely expensive. 01:27:02.260 --> 01:27:05.340 And there's no way clean meat works if FBS is 01:27:05.340 --> 01:27:07.140 an ingredient. It's one of the reasons that the 01:27:07.140 --> 01:27:11.020 environmental assessments. are bad, because they're 01:27:11.020 --> 01:27:12.439 scaling up with this assumption that they're 01:27:12.439 --> 01:27:16.500 going to keep using FBS. FBS is not allowed in 01:27:16.500 --> 01:27:19.039 a lot of medical tissue engineering. It's absolutely 01:27:19.039 --> 01:27:21.760 not an essential ingredient. It just works really 01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:24.420 well for cell multiplication. So at bench scale, 01:27:25.399 --> 01:27:27.359 a lot of people in tissue engineering use it 01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:29.000 at bench scale. But when they're actually producing 01:27:29.000 --> 01:27:31.460 the products, they can't legally use it. It's 01:27:31.460 --> 01:27:33.500 not allowed. And because these companies are 01:27:33.500 --> 01:27:36.239 run by vegans, Multiple of them have stopped 01:27:36.239 --> 01:27:37.979 using it because they have an ethical objection 01:27:37.979 --> 01:27:41.840 to it. And then as Leah said, all of them, nobody's 01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:43.699 going to be using FBS when this stuff is being 01:27:43.699 --> 01:27:50.359 produced commercially. Okay, we weren't going 01:27:50.359 --> 01:27:52.279 to do questions to the audience, but it's Karen, 01:27:52.380 --> 01:28:01.119 so yes. Okay, as you know, billions of acres 01:28:01.119 --> 01:28:04.829 of land are used just to grow crops. to feed 01:28:04.829 --> 01:28:08.609 chickens and other industrially raised animals. 01:28:09.750 --> 01:28:13.670 And even compared to the heavily sprayed crops 01:28:13.670 --> 01:28:16.729 grown directly for human consumption apart from 01:28:16.729 --> 01:28:20.569 organic, these crops are very heavily sprayed, 01:28:21.069 --> 01:28:23.770 these millions and billions of acres in Brazil 01:28:23.770 --> 01:28:26.569 and the United States and everywhere else, with 01:28:26.569 --> 01:28:29.930 every type of pesticide, herbicide, fungicide, 01:28:30.029 --> 01:28:33.659 and you name it. What is the difference between 01:28:33.659 --> 01:28:38.720 growing all these crops and using all this cropland 01:28:38.720 --> 01:28:43.779 energy and the whole resource to feed actual 01:28:43.779 --> 01:28:48.100 living animals in the food industry versus feeding 01:28:48.100 --> 01:28:54.819 the cellular versions in the vats? They still 01:28:54.819 --> 01:28:58.500 have to be fed, right? The cells have to be fed. 01:28:59.600 --> 01:29:05.760 Could you address that? So, I mean, for people 01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:08.640 who want to dive into the technology of all of 01:29:08.640 --> 01:29:12.520 this, you go to gfi .org upslash essentials. 01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:15.020 There are lots of white papers and other things 01:29:15.020 --> 01:29:18.300 that you can read. The worst case scenario right 01:29:18.300 --> 01:29:21.300 now is that, so as probably most people in this 01:29:21.300 --> 01:29:24.000 room know, it takes nine calories fed to a chicken 01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:26.939 to get one calorie back out in the form of chicken 01:29:26.939 --> 01:29:29.159 flesh, according to the World Resources Institute. 01:29:29.500 --> 01:29:31.800 So that means nine times as much land, nine times 01:29:31.800 --> 01:29:34.000 as much water, nine times as much everything. 01:29:34.960 --> 01:29:37.579 Even with the current technology, without improving 01:29:37.579 --> 01:29:41.439 anything at all, it's three calories in for one 01:29:41.439 --> 01:29:44.939 calorie back out. So it's three times as efficient, 01:29:45.119 --> 01:29:48.760 so three times fewer. Even for chicken. The cell 01:29:48.760 --> 01:29:54.850 -based, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So relative to cattle, 01:29:55.229 --> 01:29:59.250 it's like 95 % to 99 % less land, even with no 01:29:59.250 --> 01:30:02.130 improvement on the current technology. It's like 01:30:02.130 --> 01:30:04.510 so much less land. So one of the critiques that 01:30:04.510 --> 01:30:07.329 we make of those environmental assessments is 01:30:07.329 --> 01:30:11.010 that it assumes that none of that land is repurposed 01:30:11.010 --> 01:30:14.180 in a positive way. for example, for clean energy. 01:30:14.479 --> 01:30:15.859 And this is one of the things that the Gates 01:30:15.859 --> 01:30:18.079 Foundation talks about when they talk about being 01:30:18.079 --> 01:30:20.739 enthusiastic about clean meat. But we do have 01:30:20.739 --> 01:30:23.260 a cost assessment paper in the clean meat section 01:30:23.260 --> 01:30:26.340 on gfi .org upslash essentials that sort of walks 01:30:26.340 --> 01:30:29.899 through media recycling. So nutrient recycling, 01:30:30.239 --> 01:30:32.399 which could make this more and more and more 01:30:32.399 --> 01:30:34.260 efficient. And obviously, because the companies 01:30:34.260 --> 01:30:37.520 are. profit motive driven, they have incentive 01:30:37.520 --> 01:30:40.140 to make it as efficient as possible. So it should 01:30:40.140 --> 01:30:43.479 get more and more and more efficient. So it's 01:30:43.479 --> 01:30:45.840 300 % more efficient than chicken, even more 01:30:45.840 --> 01:30:49.720 efficient relative to killing pigs and cattle. 01:30:50.819 --> 01:30:54.100 OK. OK. So believe it or not, we are four minutes 01:30:54.100 --> 01:30:56.939 away from where we need to give everyone their 01:30:56.939 --> 01:31:03.140 closing statements. And I have eight more questions 01:31:03.140 --> 01:31:07.510 I wanted to ask. Well, I have several questions. 01:31:07.989 --> 01:31:10.170 The FBS, if that's okay. Did you want to respond? 01:31:10.449 --> 01:31:11.449 Please. All right, let's give a couple of minutes 01:31:11.449 --> 01:31:13.529 to respond and then I want to get at least one 01:31:13.529 --> 01:31:18.670 more of my questions in. So the idea that there 01:31:18.670 --> 01:31:21.590 are no longer startup companies of in vitro meat 01:31:21.590 --> 01:31:25.289 which are using FBS is untrue. He is correct 01:31:25.289 --> 01:31:29.010 that Just Foods has stated that they have developed 01:31:29.010 --> 01:31:32.350 a plant -based growth medium which no longer 01:31:32.350 --> 01:31:36.229 uses FBS. They are also correct that Memphis 01:31:36.229 --> 01:31:38.930 Meat has claimed that they have developed one, 01:31:38.930 --> 01:31:42.590 but they haven't actually produced the product 01:31:42.590 --> 01:31:44.470 yet, so they don't have like, they haven't actually 01:31:44.470 --> 01:31:46.590 grown it, but they think they might have a medium. 01:31:47.850 --> 01:31:50.689 All the others do, for example, Finless Foods 01:31:50.689 --> 01:31:52.670 recently reassured us that they had decreased 01:31:52.670 --> 01:31:56.579 their use of FBS by 50%. Since they won't tell 01:31:56.579 --> 01:31:59.199 us how much FPS they used to use, they won't 01:31:59.199 --> 01:32:01.760 tell us how much FPS they currently use, and 01:32:01.760 --> 01:32:03.420 they won't tell us even what their new growth 01:32:03.420 --> 01:32:07.920 medium is, it's hard to be reassured. There are 01:32:07.920 --> 01:32:11.380 two other deeper points I'd make quickly. As 01:32:11.380 --> 01:32:15.819 vegans, we don't believe that it is okay to use 01:32:15.819 --> 01:32:19.039 animals and torture them and experiment them, 01:32:19.060 --> 01:32:21.359 even if there's a claim that it's going to help 01:32:21.359 --> 01:32:24.810 animals later. You heard the earlier talk. All 01:32:24.810 --> 01:32:27.770 animal experimentation makes this claim. If you 01:32:27.770 --> 01:32:31.170 go to any of the websites today, just look what's 01:32:31.170 --> 01:32:33.710 on the website. It says we're experimenting to 01:32:33.710 --> 01:32:37.170 help animals. So I don't think it's acceptable 01:32:37.170 --> 01:32:40.770 to be using FBS, even if the claim is later on, 01:32:40.930 --> 01:32:44.050 it might help animals. Who knows? We can't predict 01:32:44.050 --> 01:32:47.710 the future. I can tell you today those fetuses 01:32:47.710 --> 01:32:50.710 are being taken out and hurt. The second thing 01:32:50.710 --> 01:32:52.970 I would say, and this goes to how we can't predict 01:32:52.970 --> 01:32:55.899 the future, Look, I kind of like and trust the 01:32:55.899 --> 01:32:58.359 people in charge of Just. I kind of like and 01:32:58.359 --> 01:33:00.899 trust the people in charge of Memphis. But Tyson 01:33:00.899 --> 01:33:04.180 just invested in Memphis to an undisclosed amount 01:33:04.180 --> 01:33:08.560 of money. I don't like or trust Tyson. If FPS 01:33:08.560 --> 01:33:12.380 works, and Tyson has a virtually unlimited amount 01:33:12.380 --> 01:33:16.199 of FPS, once they own the startup, what's to 01:33:16.199 --> 01:33:19.060 stop them from using it even if a different plant 01:33:19.060 --> 01:33:21.779 -based alternative is there? There's a plant 01:33:21.779 --> 01:33:24.979 -based alternative to the meat already. So why 01:33:24.979 --> 01:33:27.720 wouldn't they just recycle their own cow blood, 01:33:27.979 --> 01:33:31.380 their own FBS? And then as activist, I already 01:33:31.380 --> 01:33:33.300 have the problem of trying to explain, here's 01:33:33.300 --> 01:33:35.159 a factory farm, what about humane meat? Here's 01:33:35.159 --> 01:33:37.479 humane meat. What's what's really going on? Now 01:33:37.479 --> 01:33:39.819 my burden in addition to that is to be like, 01:33:39.819 --> 01:33:41.539 well, there's clean meat. Well, this is the vegan 01:33:41.539 --> 01:33:43.880 clean meat, and this is the FBS being leaked. 01:33:44.100 --> 01:33:48.939 What's FBS? Final point. Why are you only hearing 01:33:48.939 --> 01:34:01.569 about FBS? Now. From me. Okay. So I feel like 01:34:01.569 --> 01:34:05.130 this is just so riveting and everyone is wanting 01:34:05.130 --> 01:34:08.029 more and feeling they want more. Yeah. So what 01:34:08.029 --> 01:34:10.550 I'm going to propose is that we maybe don't have 01:34:10.550 --> 01:34:14.420 the 10 minute break between... If that's okay, 01:34:14.460 --> 01:34:16.100 and it's got to go and go to the bathroom and 01:34:16.100 --> 01:34:19.140 get whatever do whatever you need to do But maybe 01:34:19.140 --> 01:34:20.800 not having the 10 -minute break and being able 01:34:20.800 --> 01:34:22.840 to take this into that 10 -minute break And then 01:34:22.840 --> 01:34:25.760 we'll just go right in to the larger question 01:34:25.760 --> 01:34:28.020 and answer and bring the other speakers on would 01:34:28.020 --> 01:34:30.479 that be Acceptable we continue this I feel like 01:34:30.479 --> 01:34:37.039 people are wanting that okay, and I just We we 01:34:37.039 --> 01:34:39.520 will we will have to break momentarily to bring 01:34:39.520 --> 01:34:43.699 the other speakers up yes, give me a minute Okay. 01:34:44.239 --> 01:34:47.380 All right. Yes. Well, I'm going to ask my question, 01:34:47.539 --> 01:34:51.600 I think. Okay? And I have a lot of questions, 01:34:51.659 --> 01:34:55.060 but I think this one is the one for me that is 01:34:55.060 --> 01:34:58.500 really, really important. And the thing that 01:34:58.500 --> 01:35:01.239 I keep coming back to with all this, the thing 01:35:01.239 --> 01:35:06.319 that is my biggest concern, I would say, and 01:35:06.319 --> 01:35:13.319 that is that basically this technology Could 01:35:13.319 --> 01:35:16.380 could potentially just you know it certainly 01:35:16.380 --> 01:35:19.539 continues the commodification of farmed animals 01:35:19.539 --> 01:35:25.600 Okay, and you can okay, so does it let me rephrase 01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:29.199 my I'll ask the question Does it continue the 01:35:29.199 --> 01:35:32.640 commodification of farmed animals? the concern 01:35:32.640 --> 01:35:36.979 that You know is this going to hinder the concept 01:35:36.979 --> 01:35:41.050 of animal liberation creating a status? You know, 01:35:41.210 --> 01:35:44.149 the status that animals have a fundamental right 01:35:44.149 --> 01:35:47.569 to live free of human commodification and exploitation, 01:35:48.329 --> 01:35:52.069 i .e. animal rights. Does this reinforce the 01:35:52.069 --> 01:35:54.949 fundamental paradigms of oppression and domination 01:35:54.949 --> 01:35:58.050 that animals are just here for our use? It's 01:35:58.050 --> 01:36:02.810 still meat. So will this help to dismantle speciesism? 01:36:03.979 --> 01:36:06.680 That's the part that I keep coming back to. And 01:36:06.680 --> 01:36:09.659 if we don't establish these concepts, is there 01:36:09.659 --> 01:36:12.159 potential for exploitation in the future? And 01:36:12.159 --> 01:36:16.039 I'll just conclude with a quote. I wrote, I read, 01:36:16.199 --> 01:36:19.960 I didn't write it, I wrote, I read, sorry. Geez. 01:36:20.479 --> 01:36:23.600 I read a really wonderful book recently called 01:36:23.600 --> 01:36:26.199 The End to Animal Farming by J .C. Reese. And 01:36:26.199 --> 01:36:30.020 J .C. is, yeah, it's a great book. And he is 01:36:30.020 --> 01:36:33.880 very pro -cell -based meat. and has an entire 01:36:33.880 --> 01:36:38.000 chapter promoting cell -based meat, getting excited 01:36:38.000 --> 01:36:41.460 about cell -based meat. But at the end of this 01:36:41.460 --> 01:36:46.119 chapter, he had this quote. If society does end 01:36:46.119 --> 01:36:48.779 animal farming with technology for the sake of 01:36:48.779 --> 01:36:52.670 efficiency alone, but fails to develop compassion 01:36:52.670 --> 01:36:54.590 for farmed animals and other sentient beings, 01:36:54.949 --> 01:36:58.170 then our descendants might inflict similar abuses 01:36:58.170 --> 01:37:00.670 in the future comparable to factory farming. 01:37:00.970 --> 01:37:03.270 Such tragedies could be even greater in scale 01:37:03.270 --> 01:37:06.649 as future humans will likely have greater technological 01:37:06.649 --> 01:37:10.069 capacity. So I think what I'm talking about is 01:37:10.069 --> 01:37:17.569 that we need to have an underlying end of speciesism 01:37:20.579 --> 01:37:28.340 Not just another meat product Okay, so yeah and 01:37:28.340 --> 01:37:30.880 I You guys have been though. I think I'm gonna 01:37:30.880 --> 01:37:33.539 let this side start and then you can respond 01:37:33.539 --> 01:37:37.020 how much time oh I don't know how about four 01:37:37.020 --> 01:37:41.420 minutes. Okay. Thank you So Leah you said we're 01:37:41.420 --> 01:37:43.560 not here debating capitalism, and I disagree 01:37:43.560 --> 01:37:45.840 I mean the whole thing everything is going on 01:37:45.840 --> 01:37:48.500 within the matrix of capitalism the same people 01:37:48.500 --> 01:37:51.760 who brought us colonialism slavery to great world 01:37:51.760 --> 01:37:54.260 wars and as I said the destruction of all animals 01:37:54.260 --> 01:37:56.420 on earth and also by the way factory farming 01:37:56.420 --> 01:37:59.479 and etc etc That's the context and so yes of 01:37:59.479 --> 01:38:01.880 course. This is going to preserve the commodification 01:38:01.880 --> 01:38:06.960 of animals now Yeah, I can't say anything about 01:38:06.960 --> 01:38:08.420 the character of the person who's running Just 01:38:08.420 --> 01:38:10.239 Foods. Let's say he's a great guy. Well, I don't 01:38:10.239 --> 01:38:12.039 know who started Field Rose, but weren't they 01:38:12.039 --> 01:38:15.420 great people? And what about Ben and Jerry's? 01:38:15.500 --> 01:38:17.020 Well, they're taken over by Unilever. That's 01:38:17.020 --> 01:38:18.520 the problem with the capitalist system. You have 01:38:18.520 --> 01:38:21.779 to look at this as a structural organism. So 01:38:21.779 --> 01:38:25.180 I don't buy Ben and Jerry's vegan ice cream because 01:38:25.180 --> 01:38:27.260 I'm then supporting their exploitation of cows. 01:38:27.420 --> 01:38:30.449 All that money goes into one coffer. And has 01:38:30.449 --> 01:38:33.850 the alternative, has the growth of the vegan 01:38:33.850 --> 01:38:37.550 ice cream at Ben and Jerry's hurt their dairy 01:38:37.550 --> 01:38:41.989 Ben and Jerry's? No, it's just absurd. And so 01:38:41.989 --> 01:38:43.609 I don't think we're picking nits here. I think 01:38:43.609 --> 01:38:47.510 these are very profound economic, social, political 01:38:47.510 --> 01:38:51.689 issues that are at stake. And again, so I agree 01:38:51.689 --> 01:38:54.510 with, or not to agree with you, but I. I think 01:38:54.510 --> 01:38:56.130 the answer to your question is yes, that the 01:38:56.130 --> 01:38:58.010 commodification of animals will continue and 01:38:58.010 --> 01:39:00.710 this doesn't touch speciesism. Now, if it was 01:39:00.710 --> 01:39:03.289 the case that the people running the show were 01:39:03.289 --> 01:39:06.020 going around showing people what animal suffering 01:39:06.020 --> 01:39:08.800 is like, explaining what speciesism is, explaining 01:39:08.800 --> 01:39:11.739 how it ties into aquaria and zoos and laboratory 01:39:11.739 --> 01:39:14.399 experimentation and structural violence against 01:39:14.399 --> 01:39:17.899 animals in the transportation industry, the destruction 01:39:17.899 --> 01:39:20.279 of all ecosystems, all the freshwater systems 01:39:20.279 --> 01:39:22.420 just being destroyed. You know what I'm saying? 01:39:22.420 --> 01:39:24.739 If the public was being educated, their consciousness 01:39:24.739 --> 01:39:27.460 was being raised about what speciesism is as 01:39:27.460 --> 01:39:30.180 a mode of production of human life, then I could 01:39:30.180 --> 01:39:33.220 perhaps get on board with this. But that's not 01:39:33.220 --> 01:39:35.560 how the messaging is going. to work. And you 01:39:35.560 --> 01:39:37.720 can bet that Cargill and all these other companies 01:39:37.720 --> 01:39:40.319 who end up buying out just in five years when 01:39:40.319 --> 01:39:43.140 they have their IPO. And you bet. When I said 01:39:43.140 --> 01:39:45.100 it's not going to work, it is going to work probably 01:39:45.100 --> 01:39:47.020 as a technical matter, but it's not going to 01:39:47.020 --> 01:39:49.159 work in terms of replacing animals. That's my 01:39:49.159 --> 01:39:52.159 concern. So you can bet that when Cargill takes 01:39:52.159 --> 01:39:55.760 over Just in a few years, they'll sell it on 01:39:55.760 --> 01:39:57.920 the sustainability grounds, whether it's sustainable 01:39:57.920 --> 01:40:00.899 or not, just as they now claim. Smithfield claims 01:40:00.899 --> 01:40:03.819 to be the leader in animal care. Did you know 01:40:03.819 --> 01:40:06.180 that? Smithfield claims to be the leader in animal 01:40:06.180 --> 01:40:08.859 care. And you find these same claims by Tyson 01:40:08.859 --> 01:40:11.979 and Perdue and all of them. That's capitalism. 01:40:12.579 --> 01:40:16.000 So it just seems to me it just seems to me that 01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:18.539 that I don't think we're just being like angry, 01:40:18.539 --> 01:40:22.119 you know cranks to say look whoa Look at the 01:40:22.119 --> 01:40:25.159 history of this process and look at how the stuff 01:40:25.159 --> 01:40:28.460 is being marketed now It's a real problem. And 01:40:28.460 --> 01:40:30.600 and again, it's just gonna we have is Vasili 01:40:30.600 --> 01:40:33.920 said we have so many fantastic delicious sustainable 01:40:33.920 --> 01:40:36.939 Alternatives to animal products. We don't need 01:40:36.939 --> 01:40:39.319 synthetic meat and why don't you get Bill Gates 01:40:39.319 --> 01:40:42.739 to just promote veganism, for God's sakes, right? 01:40:49.560 --> 01:40:54.479 Okay, sure. My turn? Yes. How long do I have? 01:40:55.859 --> 01:40:58.300 Three minutes. I get less than him? Four minutes. 01:40:59.220 --> 01:41:03.279 There's just so little time. It's alright, it's 01:41:03.279 --> 01:41:07.819 been happening. Just on the commodification point, 01:41:08.539 --> 01:41:11.579 I think everybody knows that Mercy for Animals 01:41:11.579 --> 01:41:14.300 doesn't actually work on cell -based meat. We're 01:41:14.300 --> 01:41:17.039 not out there as entrepreneurs trying to create 01:41:17.039 --> 01:41:19.500 it. We're an animal rights organization, and 01:41:19.500 --> 01:41:22.800 we are out there protesting in front of McDonald's, 01:41:22.840 --> 01:41:26.619 and we're doing undercover investigations. To 01:41:26.619 --> 01:41:29.560 be really clear, we're not saying stop doing 01:41:29.560 --> 01:41:33.640 those things. We're not saying stop being activists 01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:39.760 and arguing. to take apart and look at this speciesism 01:41:39.760 --> 01:41:43.939 issue. And these companies are not being, these 01:41:43.939 --> 01:41:46.100 are not just coming out of nowhere. Nothing exists 01:41:46.100 --> 01:41:49.380 in a vacuum. These technologies are not existing 01:41:49.380 --> 01:41:51.739 or being created in a vacuum. They're being created 01:41:51.739 --> 01:41:54.439 because of pressure. Pressure that activists 01:41:54.439 --> 01:41:56.920 are creating, pressure the environment is creating, 01:41:57.239 --> 01:41:59.260 pressure human population is creating, and we're 01:41:59.260 --> 01:42:03.189 gonna keep doing that. I think that it's, It's 01:42:03.189 --> 01:42:05.850 fundamentally important that we don't throw out 01:42:05.850 --> 01:42:08.789 any possible solution right now when especially 01:42:08.789 --> 01:42:10.590 when as Bruce said the first company was created 01:42:10.590 --> 01:42:16.149 in 2015 It's really soon. It's really early and 01:42:16.149 --> 01:42:19.189 Just keep in mind what I said before There's 01:42:19.189 --> 01:42:22.170 only five to six percent vegetarians right now 01:42:22.170 --> 01:42:24.149 in the United States and hasn't changed for 20 01:42:24.149 --> 01:42:26.409 years and every day more animals are being killed 01:42:26.409 --> 01:42:30.829 so you know I we have to be careful as people 01:42:30.829 --> 01:42:33.609 who care so much about this, that we just, we 01:42:33.609 --> 01:42:36.069 don't live in our bubble, and we don't continue 01:42:36.069 --> 01:42:38.750 to just think, we're just gonna be, stand on 01:42:38.750 --> 01:42:40.909 our principles, and we're just gonna be angry 01:42:40.909 --> 01:42:44.869 about this, just think if you were in the room 01:42:44.869 --> 01:42:48.130 with Tyson, and you had the chance to talk to 01:42:48.130 --> 01:42:51.229 them, and this was your one shot, really, put 01:42:51.229 --> 01:42:54.609 yourself in their shoes, and what would convince 01:42:54.609 --> 01:42:58.329 Tyson executives to change? Just think about 01:42:58.329 --> 01:43:05.289 that. Right and Right now it's not working what 01:43:05.289 --> 01:43:08.630 we've been doing and we've got to invite other 01:43:08.630 --> 01:43:12.069 opportunities We've really got to try to invite 01:43:12.069 --> 01:43:14.229 other opportunities so yes They're investing 01:43:14.229 --> 01:43:15.789 in plant -based, and that's great, and we're 01:43:15.789 --> 01:43:17.770 doing that too, but why would we throw out this 01:43:17.770 --> 01:43:20.329 option as well? And I think that I'll just close 01:43:20.329 --> 01:43:23.569 by saying it's not about do we like it, but does 01:43:23.569 --> 01:43:28.090 it work? What will work what will stop animals 01:43:28.090 --> 01:43:29.829 from being slaughtered and that's what we have 01:43:29.829 --> 01:43:35.659 to remember Do you want to continue? Because 01:43:35.659 --> 01:43:38.920 there's still four minute. I mean, you've got 01:43:38.920 --> 01:43:42.760 some time. One minute and a little. I mean, I 01:43:42.760 --> 01:43:45.300 really do think, I mean, obviously all of us 01:43:45.300 --> 01:43:49.140 resonate not with the phrase not clean meat, 01:43:49.300 --> 01:43:51.859 but no meat. Obviously all of us would like to 01:43:51.859 --> 01:43:55.600 see Bill Gates go vegan as a solution. A lot 01:43:55.600 --> 01:43:57.439 of people in this room would probably like to 01:43:57.439 --> 01:44:03.319 see capitalism fall. But if if what we have to 01:44:03.319 --> 01:44:06.479 do is convince Bill Gates to go vegan and capitalism 01:44:06.479 --> 01:44:09.659 to fall in Order to be successful. I mean, I 01:44:09.659 --> 01:44:11.979 guess you know sort of like what Leah just said 01:44:11.979 --> 01:44:15.960 framed a slightly different way Why can't we 01:44:15.960 --> 01:44:19.460 create clean meat and do whatever work we want 01:44:19.460 --> 01:44:22.340 to do to convince Bill Gates to go vegan? And 01:44:22.340 --> 01:44:25.359 to work against capitalism if this is successful 01:44:25.359 --> 01:44:27.579 and John just said he thinks it'll be technically 01:44:27.579 --> 01:44:30.899 successful Because it's so much more efficient 01:44:30.859 --> 01:44:34.420 than the current method of making meat, it will 01:44:34.420 --> 01:44:37.399 be extremely profitable. And it will take us 01:44:37.399 --> 01:44:39.960 from nine billion animals per year, just land 01:44:39.960 --> 01:44:42.800 animals per year in the United States, to very 01:44:42.800 --> 01:44:45.840 close to zero. It'll take us from tens of billions 01:44:45.840 --> 01:44:49.939 to very close to zero animals exploited because 01:44:49.939 --> 01:44:53.100 all of the profit motive goes in this direction. 01:44:53.720 --> 01:44:56.500 So I haven't heard anything from the other side. 01:44:56.579 --> 01:44:58.579 I mean, I haven't heard them attempt to argue 01:44:58.579 --> 01:45:01.140 that what we're doing now is working. Like we 01:45:01.140 --> 01:45:03.119 need to crush capitalism and we need to convince 01:45:03.119 --> 01:45:07.619 Bill Gates to go vegan. Both of those things 01:45:07.619 --> 01:45:10.579 seem unlikely to me, but you can work for both 01:45:10.579 --> 01:45:13.100 of those things while you also try to convince 01:45:13.100 --> 01:45:15.300 Tyson and Cargill and the entire meat industry 01:45:15.300 --> 01:45:19.939 to put its business acumen in this direction 01:45:19.939 --> 01:45:22.720 instead of the other direction. On the precise 01:45:22.720 --> 01:45:25.000 question that you asked, Tobias Leinhardt wrote 01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:28.520 a book called How to Create a Vegan World. It's 01:45:28.520 --> 01:45:31.399 a really good book. And in his book, How to Create 01:45:31.399 --> 01:45:34.100 a Vegan World, one of the things he points out 01:45:34.100 --> 01:45:36.560 is that it really is. I mean, if you look at 01:45:36.560 --> 01:45:39.060 the faunalytics study, it's not 6 % vegetarian 01:45:39.060 --> 01:45:41.300 in the US, it's 2 % vegetarian. It's probably 01:45:41.300 --> 01:45:44.819 about a half a percent vegan in the United States. 01:45:45.060 --> 01:45:47.619 And one of the things that he says is inhibiting 01:45:47.619 --> 01:45:51.640 animal liberation is the fact that 98 % or 94 01:45:51.640 --> 01:45:54.840 % or 96 % of people, when they sit down to eat, 01:45:55.100 --> 01:45:57.779 they're literally dining on the corpses of tortured 01:45:57.779 --> 01:46:00.720 animals. which makes the cognitive dissonance 01:46:00.720 --> 01:46:04.159 over the moon. If we can remove the idea that 01:46:04.159 --> 01:46:07.220 meat comes from an animal, if we can grow meat 01:46:07.220 --> 01:46:09.779 directly from cells, much like insulin no longer 01:46:09.779 --> 01:46:12.619 comes from animals, if we can do that, we can 01:46:12.619 --> 01:46:16.420 open people up to the idea of animals as individuals. 01:46:16.539 --> 01:46:18.539 They all feel pain in the same way and to the 01:46:18.539 --> 01:46:20.859 same degree that we do. They're all made of flesh 01:46:20.859 --> 01:46:23.779 and blood and bone, just like we are. The argument 01:46:23.779 --> 01:46:27.000 is overwhelming for animal liberation, but because 01:46:27.000 --> 01:46:29.729 people eat the tortured corpses of animals, a 01:46:29.729 --> 01:46:31.750 lot of people aren't able to hear it. This is 01:46:31.750 --> 01:46:34.050 the solution to that as well too. This gets us 01:46:34.050 --> 01:46:41.409 closer to animal liberation. All right. Okay. 01:46:41.449 --> 01:46:44.630 So if we do want to do five minute closing statements 01:46:44.630 --> 01:46:47.569 per speaker, we'd need to start that now. Is 01:46:47.569 --> 01:46:55.449 that what we want to do? How do your side feel? 01:47:01.659 --> 01:47:06.680 okay well I okay I want we're gonna open up to 01:47:06.680 --> 01:47:09.460 the to the audience questions when we bring the 01:47:09.460 --> 01:47:12.720 other speakers on this was gonna be for I've 01:47:12.720 --> 01:47:14.539 done a great deal of research on this and I was 01:47:14.539 --> 01:47:23.149 I do I I did and I mean it's you know And it's 01:47:23.149 --> 01:47:25.989 interesting because I got all of everyone's questions 01:47:25.989 --> 01:47:28.010 that were written down. That's why I had people 01:47:28.010 --> 01:47:30.609 write the questions. And almost every single 01:47:30.609 --> 01:47:33.050 thing that people said, I had in my questions. 01:47:34.090 --> 01:47:38.189 So I was going to get to everybody's stuff. But 01:47:38.189 --> 01:47:41.609 anyway, let's go with one more question then. 01:47:42.510 --> 01:47:45.529 And then maybe we'll see where we are. And John 01:47:45.529 --> 01:47:47.170 can give a closing statement, but I feel that. 01:47:47.310 --> 01:47:50.010 You guys should as well be able to if you want. 01:47:50.310 --> 01:47:54.930 Anyway, we'll see what happens. Okay. Another 01:47:54.930 --> 01:48:00.689 question that I had is, I could really see the 01:48:00.689 --> 01:48:04.029 meat advertisers really just having a field day 01:48:04.029 --> 01:48:09.170 with this, a backlash like, well, this is real 01:48:09.170 --> 01:48:13.430 meat, the actual slaughtered animals. Because 01:48:13.430 --> 01:48:19.350 right now, the tendency in the trend in food 01:48:19.350 --> 01:48:22.829 production and food marketing is natural, is 01:48:22.829 --> 01:48:26.189 know your farmer and farmers markets and non 01:48:26.189 --> 01:48:30.970 -GMO and even Triscuit has the non -GMO commercials. 01:48:31.630 --> 01:48:35.229 So that's very much what the trend is in branding 01:48:35.229 --> 01:48:40.489 of food right now is natural. So I feel like 01:48:40.489 --> 01:48:44.270 there's a possibility. Is there the possibility, 01:48:44.369 --> 01:48:46.350 let me rephrase that, is there the possibility 01:48:46.350 --> 01:48:52.890 that the meat industry could say, well, but this 01:48:52.890 --> 01:48:56.430 is real meat. We slaughtered it. It's real meat. 01:48:56.590 --> 01:48:59.489 And that could actually increase possibly. Could 01:48:59.489 --> 01:49:05.050 it increase meat consumption? Because people 01:49:05.050 --> 01:49:18.470 want the real thing. People I mean it really 01:49:18.470 --> 01:49:20.430 is the case if you read the literature people 01:49:20.430 --> 01:49:22.550 make their dining decisions on the basis of price 01:49:22.550 --> 01:49:24.930 taste and convenience like everybody does This 01:49:24.930 --> 01:49:27.149 is going to be less expensive. It's not going 01:49:27.149 --> 01:49:29.390 to have the foodborne pathogens. It's not going 01:49:29.390 --> 01:49:32.130 to have the drug residues And it's not going 01:49:32.130 --> 01:49:34.409 to involve animal slaughter I mean 47 % of people 01:49:34.409 --> 01:49:36.409 want to ban animal slaughter like people are 01:49:36.409 --> 01:49:38.770 not eating meat because it's slaughtered when 01:49:38.770 --> 01:49:41.710 you have a safer product that costs less I mean 01:49:41.710 --> 01:49:44.010 it you know I think it's not inconceivable, but 01:49:44.010 --> 01:49:51.939 it strikes me as horribly unlikely In vitro meat 01:49:51.939 --> 01:49:55.600 absolutely will not prevent the CAFO system. 01:49:56.319 --> 01:50:01.520 I spend most of my time Yeah Sorry, I will not 01:50:01.520 --> 01:50:03.720 prevent the confined animal feeding operations 01:50:03.720 --> 01:50:06.640 will not eat in the factory farm system So you 01:50:06.640 --> 01:50:08.619 talked about not being in the vegan bubble. I 01:50:08.619 --> 01:50:11.310 absolutely agree I spend most of my time in research, 01:50:11.350 --> 01:50:14.010 not reading vegan blogs, but reading the write 01:50:14.010 --> 01:50:17.590 -ups of the industry publications. You can register 01:50:17.590 --> 01:50:20.609 for all of them. I think you should. Like Food 01:50:20.609 --> 01:50:22.989 Link, you know, even going to the conferences. 01:50:23.170 --> 01:50:27.710 There's one in Texas right now. And so the, what 01:50:27.710 --> 01:50:30.210 you heard at the beginning is that the meat industry 01:50:30.210 --> 01:50:32.810 is trying to stop it from being labeled as meat. 01:50:33.090 --> 01:50:35.270 That isn't, well, that's half -flee correct. 01:50:35.550 --> 01:50:38.180 So the people who produce the meat, We like to 01:50:38.180 --> 01:50:40.619 think as vegans monolithically of the meat industry, 01:50:40.720 --> 01:50:42.979 but there's two factors. So the people raising 01:50:42.979 --> 01:50:46.520 the animals are like, hey, we want to not call 01:50:46.520 --> 01:50:49.399 in vitro meat meat. But the people who process 01:50:49.399 --> 01:50:54.319 the animals, Tyson, Cargill, Purdue, they definitely 01:50:54.319 --> 01:50:56.640 want it to be labeled meat. And they're the ones 01:50:56.640 --> 01:50:59.539 who are actively investing in the technology. 01:51:00.079 --> 01:51:04.590 Now, as you can imagine, hey, Why are you investing 01:51:04.590 --> 01:51:06.189 in something that's going to hurt our bottom 01:51:06.189 --> 01:51:10.510 line is not an unasked question. My three points 01:51:10.510 --> 01:51:12.810 of how the factory farm industry is going to 01:51:12.810 --> 01:51:15.470 be helped from in vitro meat is not something 01:51:15.470 --> 01:51:18.510 I came up with, but is in essence, in different 01:51:18.510 --> 01:51:22.369 language, what they are telling their own suppliers. 01:51:22.789 --> 01:51:25.050 And they are telling their own suppliers not 01:51:25.050 --> 01:51:27.609 that we are disrupting the industry, but that 01:51:27.609 --> 01:51:29.789 we are going to sell more meat than ever before. 01:51:30.140 --> 01:51:32.939 What they are telling them is that we have this 01:51:32.939 --> 01:51:35.619 huge demand. We can't meet all of the demand 01:51:35.619 --> 01:51:37.939 globally because we're literally running out 01:51:37.939 --> 01:51:40.659 of room. So we're going to keep the factory farms 01:51:40.659 --> 01:51:43.300 and we're going to add in vitro meat. That's 01:51:43.300 --> 01:51:45.680 not going to replace the factory farms. Remember 01:51:45.680 --> 01:51:47.760 the earlier presentation that both of them did 01:51:47.760 --> 01:51:49.960 about the growth? How is that getting rid of 01:51:49.960 --> 01:51:52.979 factory farms? Can you think of one, take your 01:51:52.979 --> 01:51:55.880 time, one industry that's gotten rid of itself? 01:51:57.399 --> 01:52:00.970 So the second thing they're saying, That no one 01:52:00.970 --> 01:52:04.109 has bothered to respond to is they respond to 01:52:04.109 --> 01:52:07.590 it as a blended product That's their term not 01:52:07.590 --> 01:52:11.069 my term a blended product There's something that 01:52:11.069 --> 01:52:15.210 we call the Jensen paradox and what that means 01:52:15.210 --> 01:52:18.109 is something you think will decrease supply or 01:52:18.109 --> 01:52:21.729 demand actually increases it So let me give you 01:52:21.729 --> 01:52:24.609 an example of the Jensen paradox in real life 01:52:24.609 --> 01:52:28.109 Bottled water look at any bottle water product 01:52:28.239 --> 01:52:31.159 and it will have some kind of label claiming 01:52:31.159 --> 01:52:35.100 that it's like 50 % recycled or the one that 01:52:35.100 --> 01:52:39.739 Coke uses, that they have plants blended in with 01:52:39.739 --> 01:52:43.060 the plastic. The result of that has not been 01:52:43.060 --> 01:52:47.859 to decrease the use of plastic or bottled water. 01:52:48.359 --> 01:52:51.300 The result, because it's blended and can be marketed, 01:52:51.640 --> 01:52:54.560 has been to increase the use of bottled water. 01:52:54.920 --> 01:52:57.260 That's what's going to happen with in vitro meat. 01:52:57.500 --> 01:53:00.340 when the companies that own it start blending 01:53:00.340 --> 01:53:03.060 it together. 30 seconds. It's going to make your 01:53:03.060 --> 01:53:12.239 activism, my activism that much harder. Okay. 01:53:12.920 --> 01:53:17.279 So we have to wrap this up now. But hang on. 01:53:18.100 --> 01:53:21.979 Rest assured. What I think I'm going to do now 01:53:21.979 --> 01:53:24.520 is we're going to give five minutes for closing 01:53:24.520 --> 01:53:26.880 statements and you can divide that any way you 01:53:26.880 --> 01:53:29.130 want. Five minutes for closing statements. You 01:53:29.130 --> 01:53:32.930 can divide that any way you want. And then we're 01:53:32.930 --> 01:53:35.029 going to then bring a couple more chairs. We're 01:53:35.029 --> 01:53:38.369 going to invite Renee, Joanne, and Karen up here. 01:53:38.609 --> 01:53:40.909 And I'm going to run around there for an hour 01:53:40.909 --> 01:53:44.390 and answer all your questions. And you are welcome 01:53:44.390 --> 01:53:47.909 to continue asking about cell -based meat. And 01:53:47.909 --> 01:53:50.069 in fact, I know that Joanne knows a great deal 01:53:50.069 --> 01:53:53.649 about it. She is actually on the this side. And 01:53:53.649 --> 01:53:56.489 Renee. as well supports cell -based meat. So 01:53:56.489 --> 01:53:59.250 we'll put her over here. Maybe they have something 01:53:59.250 --> 01:54:01.329 they'd like to say about it as well. So we could 01:54:01.329 --> 01:54:03.210 continue this if we want, or we can go in a completely 01:54:03.210 --> 01:54:04.890 different direction. But we're going to have 01:54:04.890 --> 01:54:07.750 to wrap this part of it up. So five minutes over 01:54:07.750 --> 01:54:11.090 here. I mean, I think probably Leah and I have 01:54:11.090 --> 01:54:13.010 said most of what we want to say. I just want 01:54:13.010 --> 01:54:17.550 to respond to the last point. And that is I read 01:54:17.550 --> 01:54:20.130 all of the industry publications. They talk about 01:54:20.130 --> 01:54:21.649 blended products. But when they're talking about 01:54:21.649 --> 01:54:23.250 blended products, they're talking about plant 01:54:23.250 --> 01:54:26.000 -based. with meat. I've certainly never seen 01:54:26.000 --> 01:54:28.239 anybody talking about cell -based blend, I don't 01:54:28.239 --> 01:54:31.180 think. And it really does defy capitalism. I 01:54:31.180 --> 01:54:34.199 mean, if this works and you're producing the 01:54:34.199 --> 01:54:36.880 exact same thing, and you can produce it in one 01:54:36.880 --> 01:54:40.260 way that makes you more money, and another way 01:54:40.260 --> 01:54:42.939 that makes you less money, why would you blend 01:54:42.939 --> 01:54:44.579 those things together? You wouldn't. You would 01:54:44.579 --> 01:54:47.199 go exclusively with the thing that makes you 01:54:47.199 --> 01:54:50.319 more money. And that's cell -based meat. which 01:54:50.319 --> 01:54:52.920 is the more efficient product, so it will be 01:54:52.920 --> 01:54:55.140 the more profitable product, and it really will 01:54:55.140 --> 01:54:57.560 be like insulin. I mean, I guess some people 01:54:57.560 --> 01:55:00.779 still have landlines, but the vast majority of 01:55:00.779 --> 01:55:03.140 communication is on cell phones and text message, 01:55:03.279 --> 01:55:06.079 which are more efficient and didn't used to exist. 01:55:06.180 --> 01:55:08.000 Some people may still have film -based cameras, 01:55:08.180 --> 01:55:10.319 but the vast majority of photos are taken on 01:55:10.319 --> 01:55:13.359 our cell phones because it's easier and it's 01:55:13.359 --> 01:55:17.260 more efficient and it's just simpler. When we 01:55:17.260 --> 01:55:21.279 shift from producing meat, in CAFOs to producing 01:55:21.279 --> 01:55:23.380 meat in this other better way. The reason the 01:55:23.380 --> 01:55:25.399 meat industry is investing is that it's going 01:55:25.399 --> 01:55:28.460 to be more profitable and it will completely 01:55:28.460 --> 01:55:33.100 replace the vast majority of animal product production, 01:55:33.340 --> 01:55:36.060 just like 100 % of insulin is now synthetic. 01:55:39.000 --> 01:55:43.140 Okay. Again, I think, like Bruce, I've said most 01:55:43.140 --> 01:55:47.600 of what I want to say. I think my main... Thought 01:55:47.600 --> 01:55:51.260 I want you to go away with is what works. What 01:55:51.260 --> 01:55:54.180 will work. And that's what really matters. And 01:55:54.180 --> 01:55:57.539 sometimes we have to put aside our comfort zone 01:55:57.539 --> 01:56:00.260 for that. And that's a big theme for me, is us 01:56:00.260 --> 01:56:03.819 moving into our discomfort zone. And I've had 01:56:03.819 --> 01:56:06.600 to do that, where I've had to sit down with a 01:56:06.600 --> 01:56:08.159 factory farmer and understand, how did he get 01:56:08.159 --> 01:56:11.119 there? Why is he doing that? Or Renee. is a rancher 01:56:11.119 --> 01:56:14.100 who used to slaughter animals and she had to 01:56:14.100 --> 01:56:16.199 move into her discomfort zone, confront her husband. 01:56:16.619 --> 01:56:19.760 We have to think about it from the other perspective 01:56:19.760 --> 01:56:25.739 because in my view, it's not about winning over 01:56:25.739 --> 01:56:28.760 them, it's about winning them over. How do we 01:56:28.760 --> 01:56:32.199 win the world over? And we have to keep that 01:56:32.199 --> 01:56:34.279 at the forefront of our minds because we're up 01:56:34.279 --> 01:56:38.220 against it. We're up against 10 billion people 01:56:38.220 --> 01:56:40.140 wanting more and more and more and more and more 01:56:40.140 --> 01:56:43.140 and that has to be at the forefront of our mind 01:56:43.140 --> 01:56:47.579 So I ask you to think about that. What will work 01:56:47.579 --> 01:56:55.640 what will work? All right five minutes on the 01:56:55.640 --> 01:57:06.069 other side Wow so We we have a lot to talk about 01:57:06.069 --> 01:57:08.710 still right there. There's I do want to say one 01:57:08.710 --> 01:57:10.489 thing which is there's a there's a flavor to 01:57:10.489 --> 01:57:14.630 this of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory 01:57:14.630 --> 01:57:18.069 To some extent which is to say I and I understand 01:57:18.069 --> 01:57:20.890 that veganism is hardly taking off However, according 01:57:20.890 --> 01:57:24.609 to the Good Food Institute itself Plant -based 01:57:24.609 --> 01:57:27.350 alternatives alternatives to animal based foods 01:57:27.350 --> 01:57:33.390 grew 17 % over the previous year Overall sales 01:57:33.390 --> 01:57:38.729 of vegan items in the U .S. rose 20 % from 2017 01:57:38.729 --> 01:57:41.710 to the middle of 2018. And although, yes, there's 01:57:41.710 --> 01:57:48.229 a flaw in the study, between 2014 and 2017, the 01:57:48.229 --> 01:57:50.770 number of U .S. consumers identifying as vegan 01:57:50.770 --> 01:57:56.270 grew 600 % from 1 % to 6%. Now, whatever the 01:57:56.270 --> 01:58:00.539 flaws are, you know, there's everything. Pretty 01:58:00.539 --> 01:58:03.920 much everything that you folks have said about 01:58:03.920 --> 01:58:08.180 shifting to an alternative to the system could 01:58:08.180 --> 01:58:12.920 be applied to promoting, marketing plant -based 01:58:12.920 --> 01:58:17.920 things. If you want to emphasize, as you have, 01:58:18.039 --> 01:58:20.000 Bruce, price, taste, and convenience, you say 01:58:20.000 --> 01:58:23.619 that's the reason why consumers buy things. Well, 01:58:23.760 --> 01:58:26.500 there is a big assumption here that this new 01:58:26.500 --> 01:58:29.979 technology, first of all, is going to be exactly 01:58:29.979 --> 01:58:33.520 the same in taste, or better, or maybe it won't 01:58:33.520 --> 01:58:36.479 be, whether the pricing is going to be the same. 01:58:36.859 --> 01:58:38.800 But I would caution you all, look at what happened 01:58:38.800 --> 01:58:44.319 to humane meat, right? This is basically a boutique 01:58:44.319 --> 01:58:47.100 product that yuppies buy in the cities mostly. 01:58:47.539 --> 01:58:50.840 It's been the most explosively profitable sector 01:58:50.840 --> 01:58:53.979 of the meat industry, humane meat. It's just 01:58:53.979 --> 01:58:56.359 gone through the roof. And has it improved the 01:58:56.359 --> 01:58:59.319 welfare of animals? No. cut down on the number 01:58:59.319 --> 01:59:02.119 of animals being killed? No. I just want to say 01:59:02.119 --> 01:59:05.439 that we are not, this is not a contradiction 01:59:05.439 --> 01:59:08.520 between the moral purists over here and the pragmatists 01:59:08.520 --> 01:59:10.979 over there. We are arguing, at least I think 01:59:10.979 --> 01:59:13.899 we're arguing, that it isn't going to work. It 01:59:13.899 --> 01:59:15.920 isn't going to work for the reasons we've said, 01:59:16.060 --> 01:59:18.659 that it's by strengthening meat, the idea of 01:59:18.659 --> 01:59:20.939 meat is something we must always have, it is 01:59:20.939 --> 01:59:24.479 going to keep this whole system going. And yes, 01:59:24.859 --> 01:59:26.920 millions of people will buy these new products. 01:59:27.359 --> 01:59:31.500 But the same people who you know own the the 01:59:31.500 --> 01:59:34.800 animal Commodities living ones will continue 01:59:34.800 --> 01:59:37.579 to do that too, and we aren't in charge of that 01:59:37.579 --> 01:59:40.479 so basically we're going to have to entrust The 01:59:40.479 --> 01:59:42.920 fate of the animals to this I want to read a 01:59:42.920 --> 01:59:46.100 poem briefly by it's very short by Langston Hughes 01:59:46.100 --> 01:59:48.180 It's called dreams because I think we can all 01:59:48.180 --> 01:59:53.220 agree on this hold fast to dreams For if dreams 01:59:53.220 --> 01:59:55.899 die life is a broken winged bird that cannot 01:59:55.899 --> 02:00:00.810 fly Hold fast to dreams for when dreams go life 02:00:00.810 --> 02:00:07.770 is a barren field frozen with snow When Bruce 02:00:07.770 --> 02:00:12.890 was interviewed by Ezra Klein Ezra Klein the 02:00:12.890 --> 02:00:14.670 interviewer said there's a tendency to make this 02:00:14.670 --> 02:00:17.489 a moral crusade But increasingly it seems to 02:00:17.489 --> 02:00:19.510 me that if there's going to be an answer to this 02:00:19.510 --> 02:00:22.010 it'll be Technological and I think that sums 02:00:22.010 --> 02:00:24.930 up what we're hearing here, and I I just don't 02:00:24.930 --> 02:00:27.529 believe it And I think even if you find this 02:00:27.529 --> 02:00:30.750 a very attractive glittering new thing, please 02:00:30.750 --> 02:00:34.789 be very skeptical of how it's going to end up 02:00:34.789 --> 02:00:36.869 and consider the fact that it isn't going to 02:00:36.869 --> 02:00:39.010 be in our hands. It's going to be in the hands 02:00:39.010 --> 02:00:42.869 of these incredibly powerful billion dollar corporations. 02:00:43.789 --> 02:00:46.029 And so whether we end up with, because there's 02:00:46.029 --> 02:00:49.880 been some equivocation here, zero. animals being 02:00:49.880 --> 02:00:52.920 used or as Bruce just said, a substantially reduced 02:00:52.920 --> 02:00:55.399 number of animals being used or maybe because 02:00:55.399 --> 02:00:58.500 of Jensen's paradox, meat consumption with population 02:00:58.500 --> 02:01:02.520 growth will go up and then the clean meat will 02:01:02.520 --> 02:01:05.979 replace a certain percentage of the live animals 02:01:05.979 --> 02:01:08.819 and maybe in 10 years we'll still have 50 billion 02:01:08.819 --> 02:01:11.039 land animals being killed. It's just that there'll 02:01:11.039 --> 02:01:13.199 be much more meat and people will also be eating 02:01:13.199 --> 02:01:17.079 the so -called clean meat. One minute. Sorry. 02:01:17.369 --> 02:01:21.289 Can I take up all your time? I'll be, I'll be, 02:01:21.289 --> 02:01:23.329 I think I love what you said. I'll be very quick. 02:01:23.590 --> 02:01:26.810 I want to leave you with one final simple truth. 02:01:27.430 --> 02:01:31.310 We are not going to defeat speciesism with speciesism. 02:01:32.630 --> 02:01:36.010 We are not going to convince people that animals 02:01:36.010 --> 02:01:39.850 should not be treated like machines by trying 02:01:39.850 --> 02:01:43.630 to align with their biases and try to make animals 02:01:43.630 --> 02:01:47.550 more like machines. I can't think of a single 02:01:47.550 --> 02:01:50.590 social justice movement that has ever worked 02:01:50.590 --> 02:01:54.350 by abandoning its principles. And I don't think 02:01:54.350 --> 02:02:11.390 we should start now. Thank you. Again, thank 02:02:11.390 --> 02:02:14.229 you so much for caring, and I will see you next 02:02:14.229 --> 02:02:16.109 Tuesday for a new episode.