WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.459 Baby chicks mailed by the National Postal Service. 00:00:05.219 --> 00:00:08.560 Animal testing lab whistleblowers getting threatened 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:13.679 by mysterious powers. Polar bears allowed to 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.760 be hunted despite being in danger of extinction. 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:22.920 This is Canada in 2025 as it faces what could 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.640 be the most consequential election in its history, 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:30.899 fighting an economic war with Trump's United 00:00:30.899 --> 00:00:35.200 States. In today's episode, I am joined by the 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:39.560 inspiring Liz White, leader of the Animal Protection 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:43.500 Party of Canada, for one of the few conversations 00:00:43.500 --> 00:00:47.859 exploring what is at stake for the billions of 00:00:47.859 --> 00:00:52.079 animals whose fate will soon be decided at the 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:57.359 ballot box. You know, we live in unusual times 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.140 and people are very afraid of what's going to 00:01:00.140 --> 00:01:03.240 happen. We have no idea what Mr. Trump south 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:05.819 of the border is going to do at any given time. 00:01:06.459 --> 00:01:10.859 And so things are kind of in somewhat of a chaos. 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:15.560 And so, you know, we're looking at unprecedented 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:17.599 times in many ways. I don't think in all the 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:20.519 years that I've been in politics since the 70s 00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:24.049 that I've seen anything like this, but I would 00:01:24.049 --> 00:01:28.909 say I think we have a very real opportunity here 00:01:28.909 --> 00:01:32.989 to separate ourselves out and to redefine ourselves 00:01:32.989 --> 00:01:36.049 in a way that makes us very, very different from 00:01:36.049 --> 00:01:38.450 the United States. I think we are very different, 00:01:38.469 --> 00:01:43.650 but I want to focus on the animal issue. In a 00:01:43.650 --> 00:01:46.170 way, we're different because, say, for animal 00:01:46.170 --> 00:01:50.060 agriculture, The size of the farms are much smaller 00:01:50.060 --> 00:01:54.319 than the United States. And we have, I think, 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:58.200 probably stricter rules about how farmed animals 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:01.599 are handled, but those aren't always followed 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:07.000 or enforced. And so, you know, we have very difficult 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.240 situations with farm animals in Canada, but to 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.439 a much lesser extent than the United States. 00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:15.300 And then that gives us a very real opportunity 00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:20.210 to begin to pivot away from animal agriculture, 00:02:20.409 --> 00:02:22.629 particularly intensive animal agriculture to 00:02:22.629 --> 00:02:25.870 begin with, and then to pivot away from animal 00:02:25.870 --> 00:02:30.729 agriculture altogether as our commitment to impart 00:02:30.729 --> 00:02:34.090 reducing our contribution to global warming and 00:02:34.090 --> 00:02:37.550 our contribution to animal rights and animal 00:02:37.550 --> 00:02:40.610 welfare in Canada. And I think we have a very 00:02:40.610 --> 00:02:44.349 real opportunity to do that because many of our 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:50.300 animals go to the United States. pigs, pork goes 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:53.020 to the United States. All sorts of animals are 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:55.759 transported to the United States. Sows that no 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:57.919 longer give birth are transported to the United 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:00.919 States for slaughter. I mean, all kinds of things 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.539 are happening in this particular situation. And 00:03:04.539 --> 00:03:08.620 again, on the chicken side, all kinds of chickens 00:03:08.620 --> 00:03:17.379 that are from forced molting and egg laying farms, 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:23.039 spent hands, are shipped up to Canada for slaughter 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.819 and none of that really needs to happen. We can 00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:28.740 say with regard to the terrorists, no, we're 00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:31.419 not gonna do that anymore. And I think we begin 00:03:31.419 --> 00:03:34.780 to redefine how we do animal agriculture in Canada. 00:03:34.819 --> 00:03:37.539 So I think we have a very real opportunity. With 00:03:37.539 --> 00:03:42.080 regard to animals and research, I don't see anything 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.840 really changing substantially in that regard 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:48.639 under the current circumstances, but maybe with 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.639 the turmoil that it has caused, with the inability 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:56.139 for research to continue as it was in the United 00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:59.740 States, we may have an opportunity to change 00:03:59.740 --> 00:04:03.240 that as well. So I look on it with dread in some 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:08.840 ways and with opportunity in other ways. And 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:13.539 what about the activism scene? Do you feel or 00:04:13.539 --> 00:04:18.639 think that the animal rights activism scene in 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:25.339 Canada is less developed than in the US or more 00:04:25.339 --> 00:04:30.399 so? Can you also differentiate those two worlds 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:37.199 of activism? From my point of view, The work 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:42.339 that people do covertly in labs makes it very 00:04:42.339 --> 00:04:45.439 much harder to get information out about what's 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:50.360 happening. I've done multiple freedom of information 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:54.879 at the federal level, the AATIP program, but 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.560 predominantly in Ontario because they have an 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:02.360 Animals for Research Act, and the Animals for 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.439 Research Act is under the FOIP. freedom of information 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:10.000 process, so I can do freedom of information for 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:15.259 that. The standard line for denying me any information 00:05:15.259 --> 00:05:18.720 is the threat of violence against researchers, 00:05:19.459 --> 00:05:22.420 research laboratories, their homes, their families, 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:26.439 and so most of the information that would be 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:29.680 very helpful in fighting to get an end to this 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:33.889 process is completely denied and it makes it 00:05:33.889 --> 00:05:38.089 very very difficult to actually get at the problem. 00:05:38.410 --> 00:05:41.170 The rest of Canada is a serious problem because 00:05:41.170 --> 00:05:44.709 they do not have any act that governs them. They're 00:05:44.709 --> 00:05:47.089 under the Canadian Council on Animal Care which 00:05:47.089 --> 00:05:50.709 is a voluntary body and frankly not much help 00:05:50.709 --> 00:05:54.089 when even we know that there's issues going on 00:05:54.089 --> 00:05:57.230 within a particular facility or within a particular 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:01.899 government agency and we lay a complaint Those 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:04.579 are, as far as I can tell, are never really dealt 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:09.720 with. So we have a very difficult road to hoe. 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:12.379 I think it would be difficult anyway, but the 00:06:12.379 --> 00:06:14.160 difference in the United States is that they 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.920 have sunshine laws. And so they're able to get 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.560 much more information about what goes on, for 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:27.360 example, in research laboratories and then be 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.540 able to expose them. to the public and there's 00:06:30.540 --> 00:06:33.480 an assumption that all of that information in 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.379 the United States should be public really. I 00:06:36.379 --> 00:06:38.120 don't know whether that's the case right at the 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:40.920 moment because they're in the process of dismantling 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:44.220 some of the research facilities and their work 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:48.779 but in the end there has been a long history 00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:51.220 in the United States of getting that information 00:06:51.220 --> 00:06:54.040 out where you know it's kind of opposite where 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.800 in Canada it's almost impossible to get information 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:00.819 out about what's going on in research laboratories. 00:07:01.579 --> 00:07:03.860 Now, when it comes to animal agriculture, which 00:07:03.860 --> 00:07:06.420 is another biggie, right? Those are two big, 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:10.720 you know, confinement issues and end of life 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:17.759 issues and so on. The the farms in the United 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:21.060 States have or some of the states in the United 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:24.019 States have, of course, passed ag -gag laws and 00:07:24.019 --> 00:07:26.360 some of those have been challenged and overturned. 00:07:26.589 --> 00:07:31.629 In Canada, of course, in Ontario, the provincial 00:07:31.629 --> 00:07:35.110 government here implemented an ag piece of legislation. 00:07:35.329 --> 00:07:39.149 It's currently going through the courts. We are 00:07:39.149 --> 00:07:42.589 there as interveners, animal justice leading 00:07:42.589 --> 00:07:45.589 it, but we're there as interveners. And so we'll 00:07:45.589 --> 00:07:48.410 see what happens with that particular situation. 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:51.089 but I think part of the law has already been 00:07:51.089 --> 00:07:54.209 struck down and I suspect that other part of 00:07:54.209 --> 00:07:56.310 the law might in fact be struck down as well. 00:07:56.350 --> 00:07:59.170 I think we have a very strong argument. So slowly 00:07:59.170 --> 00:08:03.329 we're picking away at it but it's extremely difficult 00:08:03.329 --> 00:08:06.790 in Canada to get information about what is actually 00:08:06.790 --> 00:08:11.649 going on. Not in an overall general sense because 00:08:11.649 --> 00:08:15.959 the CCAC provides us with that but in a research 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:20.800 facility by research facility. In the FOI material 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.379 that I got from the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.339 Food and Rural Affairs that governs the Animals 00:08:27.339 --> 00:08:32.440 for Research Act, I was able to get heavily redacted 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:36.480 information from each research facility in Canada 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:38.759 and the inspection reports that took place in 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:42.059 those facilities. And the inspection reports 00:08:42.059 --> 00:08:46.419 showed that in many cases, the research facilities 00:08:46.419 --> 00:08:48.960 were in non -compliance with the regulations 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.539 that were set out in the Animals Research Act 00:08:52.539 --> 00:08:57.860 and in fact some were in violation of those not 00:08:57.860 --> 00:09:00.539 just in non -compliance but in violation of those 00:09:00.539 --> 00:09:05.360 and so you wonder if that is what you're seeing 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.159 out of a heavily redacted document what's actually 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:11.279 going on in those facilities and so far we haven't 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:14.860 been able to find out. Yeah, so one of the interesting 00:09:14.860 --> 00:09:17.559 examples of how hard it is to get information. 00:09:18.700 --> 00:09:21.480 We had a situation where a student or students 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:25.940 entered our KEL research facilities, which is 00:09:25.940 --> 00:09:29.019 at the University of Guelph. And they do research 00:09:29.019 --> 00:09:33.179 on farmed animals, basically. And they found 00:09:33.179 --> 00:09:35.419 that the door was open and nobody was inside. 00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:38.259 except the animals, of course, who are somebody. 00:09:39.139 --> 00:09:43.559 And they went through and documented the condition 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.399 of the animals, which were pretty grim, and I 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.000 think pretty much unacceptable for a research 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.679 facility in Ontario under the Animals Research 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.360 Act. So they posted, they took pictures, they 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.879 posted on Facebook, I reached out to them and 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.000 asked if I could lay a complaint based on their 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:02.080 photos and their information. They agreed. I 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:07.580 laid complaints to the university, Omafra, and 00:10:07.580 --> 00:10:12.840 at the federal level, and was denied all information 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.519 about what was going on there, even though, you 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:20.600 know, the chickens were in really terrible condition 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.679 and the pigs were. And why we were denied that 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:27.600 information is beyond me, but it just goes to 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:29.700 show you how difficult it is to get any information 00:10:29.700 --> 00:10:31.940 out about what's occurring to these animals. 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:36.299 So You know, when we get good examples like that, 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:39.299 we continue to build on the pressure to the research 00:10:39.299 --> 00:10:42.659 facilities, to the farm animals to get changes. 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:47.799 You mentioned how researchers get threatened. 00:10:48.539 --> 00:10:53.539 Did I hear that correctly? And, you know, who 00:10:53.539 --> 00:10:57.379 is doing the threatening? Well, that's the interesting 00:10:57.379 --> 00:11:02.460 thing, Rayyan. I get denied information based 00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:06.519 on one -liner, you know, threats of violence 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:12.600 and intimidation. So I've written to the IPC, 00:11:12.740 --> 00:11:16.820 to OMAFRA, to the CCAC to please tell me what 00:11:16.820 --> 00:11:21.019 are the incidents and who's doing it. And they 00:11:21.019 --> 00:11:24.259 won't tell me. So I know, but I know from doing 00:11:24.259 --> 00:11:31.169 a freedom of information request to St. Mike's 00:11:31.169 --> 00:11:36.889 Hospital, because they use animals there, that 00:11:36.889 --> 00:11:44.789 they challenged my request based on being persecuted, 00:11:45.029 --> 00:11:49.830 intimidated, and worried about violence. And 00:11:49.830 --> 00:11:54.090 so I dug around a little bit and actually in 00:11:54.090 --> 00:11:59.649 their report they said that outside of the facility, 00:12:00.090 --> 00:12:03.610 which they not list on list the address where 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:06.070 the animals come in. They do all that's all that's 00:12:06.070 --> 00:12:08.970 public. And yet they're afraid because somebody 00:12:08.970 --> 00:12:14.049 wrote in chalk on the sidewalk. What was it? 00:12:15.149 --> 00:12:17.970 Something about animals dying on level eight 00:12:17.970 --> 00:12:21.379 of the facility and. that was what they used. 00:12:21.460 --> 00:12:23.419 And a reporter came to their door to ask for 00:12:23.419 --> 00:12:25.259 more information about what was going on to the 00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:28.700 animals. And that's what they used as intimidation. 00:12:29.299 --> 00:12:32.080 And so I have not been able to get an answer 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.840 since then as to who's doing the intimidation 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:38.080 and what's the level of the intimidation. So 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:43.460 we don't really know. That's crazy. Crazy. Yep. 00:12:44.299 --> 00:12:46.639 Yep. You're not allowed to know what's going 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:49.120 on in the research laboratory, who's doing it. 00:12:49.100 --> 00:12:51.600 where the animals are coming from, what they're 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.840 subjected to, and if there is a threat, what 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:57.580 kind of threat there is and who's doing it. You 00:12:57.580 --> 00:13:01.419 can't have any of that information. I guess in 00:13:01.419 --> 00:13:07.600 there, there's an implicit confession of, you 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:09.980 know, there's an implicit understanding that 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:13.080 if you had access to that information and you 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:19.059 were able to expose it and present that to Canadians, 00:13:19.779 --> 00:13:24.159 then they would side with you and make those 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:30.919 practices stop. Isn't there, you know, this implicit 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.080 understanding? I think the interesting information 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.360 about this particular issue, and maybe even farmed 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:40.559 animals, those are the you know, really big, 00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:46.399 or the big numbers are that certainly with the 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:49.509 research issue, Most people just don't believe 00:13:49.509 --> 00:13:52.409 it's happening. I mean, it is a huge barrier 00:13:52.409 --> 00:13:57.429 to get over. We went from a broader campaign 00:13:57.429 --> 00:14:01.169 to a much narrower campaign talking about pets 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:04.289 going to research, animals that end up in ponds 00:14:04.289 --> 00:14:08.450 and shelters are requisitioned by research facilities 00:14:08.450 --> 00:14:10.190 and they get the animals and they do research 00:14:10.190 --> 00:14:14.809 on them. And people just cannot believe that 00:14:14.809 --> 00:14:18.120 that happens. And yet the statistics from the 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.659 Canadian Council on Animal Care show large numbers 00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:29.259 of pet animals, companion animals are sent to 00:14:29.259 --> 00:14:32.299 research. And in fact, some of the most painful 00:14:32.299 --> 00:14:35.700 research is done on them. And yet, you know, 00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:38.139 trying to get people to understand that actually 00:14:38.139 --> 00:14:42.899 happens and how it happens because it's so secretive. 00:14:43.129 --> 00:14:48.909 is really impossible. And so it makes going after 00:14:48.909 --> 00:14:55.169 change in these situations a challenge. So years 00:14:55.169 --> 00:15:00.190 and years ago, I was an activist for an organization. 00:15:00.190 --> 00:15:04.990 I was volunteering for them on a campaign about 00:15:04.990 --> 00:15:08.210 tax heavens. I learned a lot about tax heavens 00:15:08.210 --> 00:15:11.379 and how different countries are different kinds 00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:15.100 of tax havens for different industries. And I 00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:20.659 guess my question is, is Canada like a special 00:15:20.659 --> 00:15:24.480 place for the ag or animal exploitation industry? 00:15:24.899 --> 00:15:28.500 Like, if you are in in, you know, big pharma, 00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:34.590 and you want to you know, experiment on on animals 00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:38.049 and do some of the worst experiments out there. 00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:42.269 Is Canada one of the best place to to do so because, 00:15:42.269 --> 00:15:48.789 you know, of that barrier to access of information 00:15:48.789 --> 00:15:53.210 and, and, you know, how they are allowed to be 00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:55.909 because I feel like they're really empowered 00:15:55.909 --> 00:16:01.409 here. I think partly that's the case and partly 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:06.340 It's just how the research community worldwide 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:10.659 works. As long as you can shut down any conversation 00:16:10.659 --> 00:16:14.500 about it, they are less exposed to what they're 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:16.659 doing and less having to have a conversation 00:16:16.659 --> 00:16:20.259 that maybe they should change, that maybe they 00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:24.120 might want to look at NAMs, the non -animal alternatives, 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:28.330 of which there are many in... in place now and 00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.809 many that are being developed by people who are 00:16:30.809 --> 00:16:34.370 doing alternative science in that regard. I think 00:16:34.370 --> 00:16:37.389 where Canada becomes a haven, and it's not really 00:16:37.389 --> 00:16:40.730 a haven, I think it's sloppy work on the part 00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:42.850 of our government and maybe that makes us a haven, 00:16:43.429 --> 00:16:47.870 but I think a good example of that is the trade 00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:51.549 -in long -tailed macaque monkeys from Cambodia. 00:16:55.300 --> 00:16:59.179 under the CITES, the Convention on the International 00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:01.960 Trade in Endangered Species, if you're going 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.519 to use monkeys for research, you have to have 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:08.900 them from a breeding facility, not from the wild. 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.000 And of course, with things like COVID and other 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:16.779 viruses floating around, and they're used for 00:17:16.779 --> 00:17:21.779 that kind of research, there is huge pressure. 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:25.410 to get more and more macaque monkeys. And so 00:17:25.410 --> 00:17:27.849 Charles River, which is one of the largest facilities 00:17:27.849 --> 00:17:30.430 in the United States, and I think one of the 00:17:30.430 --> 00:17:33.970 only that imports macaque monkeys, was under 00:17:33.970 --> 00:17:38.029 investigation by the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:17:38.029 --> 00:17:41.950 Service, and in fact they found that they are 00:17:41.950 --> 00:17:45.670 alleged to have imported monkeys from the wild, 00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:48.250 and so they have been denied bringing any monkeys 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:50.660 into the United States. So Charles River who 00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:53.619 has a company here, simply move their import 00:17:53.619 --> 00:17:56.359 into Canada. And Canada's become the largest 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:01.000 importer of long -tailed macaque monkeys into 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:06.180 Canada. And the more than a suspicion, I would 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:09.940 say, exists that these animals came from the 00:18:09.940 --> 00:18:13.220 wild, not from a breeding facility, because If 00:18:13.220 --> 00:18:14.920 you look at the number of females in a breeding 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:17.259 facility, the length of time it takes for them 00:18:17.259 --> 00:18:19.180 to have babies, the length of time it takes them 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:21.359 to raise them so that they can be used for research, 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.599 the numbers of monkeys that are coming through 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:29.680 simply outpace what a breeding facility or breeding 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.299 facilities can produce. So we know they're caught 00:18:32.299 --> 00:18:35.599 from the wild and that's the issue and CITES 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.980 is taking a look at it, but it makes you feel 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:43.440 like Canada has become a safe haven that in fact, 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:49.000 our folks in the Ministry of the Environment 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:53.039 are not really looking very hard at the documentation 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.799 of these monkeys and where they came from. And 00:18:55.799 --> 00:19:02.539 then I guess, like you alluded to, is it, you 00:19:02.539 --> 00:19:06.940 know, wilfulness from them? Or is it just sloppiness? 00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:11.000 Is it just incompetence? Are they really understanding 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.339 the issue and turning a blind eye on purpose 00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:18.339 because they have been captured by this industry? 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:21.640 I think they're looking just looking at the paperwork. 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:25.740 The paperwork says captivity. And we know, you 00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:29.680 know, I mean, the difficulty is this issue of 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.279 reliability of information from Cambodia. And 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.720 so, you know, what the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.500 has alleged to have found is that those documents 00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:49.339 were not true. And when they asked Charles River 00:19:49.339 --> 00:19:54.779 to prove where these animals came from, Charles 00:19:54.779 --> 00:19:56.740 River stopped importing into the US and brought 00:19:56.740 --> 00:20:01.099 it into Canada. So, you know, you think down 00:20:01.099 --> 00:20:04.769 there, I think, interestingly, before Trump got 00:20:04.769 --> 00:20:08.109 him. The U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service did 00:20:08.109 --> 00:20:11.529 a good job at actually taking it on, investigating 00:20:11.529 --> 00:20:14.549 it, looking at it. I mean, PETA was actually 00:20:14.549 --> 00:20:17.049 involved in producing some of the information, 00:20:17.049 --> 00:20:21.269 but the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service actually 00:20:21.269 --> 00:20:24.990 did a sting operation and all that sort of stuff. 00:20:25.609 --> 00:20:27.930 So I think they did their due diligence. I think 00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:29.789 Canada just looks at the paperwork and says, 00:20:30.309 --> 00:20:34.740 OK. To continue on this comparison, between the 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:41.220 US and Canada. Something the US has that is an 00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:46.940 envy, I guess, for me, is freedom of speech. 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:53.200 And, you know, it's a constitutional right. It's 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.920 there, I think, First Amendment. But we don't 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:03.839 really have something like that in Canada. And 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:08.960 what is the impact of that for activism and for 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:11.700 animal rights activists in Canada? Well, I think 00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:14.960 the ag -gag legislation that's being challenged 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:19.119 in court in Ontario is a good example of, you 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.420 know, it's going to probably have to go to the 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:23.440 Supreme Court. You know, whether the Supreme 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:25.819 Court actually agrees to look at it is a whole 00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:28.480 other thing. But if they do agree to look at 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:32.859 it, then you know we may be able to lay a marker 00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:36.559 through the constitution about free speech and 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:40.900 about the ability of people to actually document 00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:46.279 the condition of animals and how they're treated 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:50.099 legally and and not be constantly harassed and 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:53.400 thrown in jail. You know the the farmers argue 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.140 that if people go into the barns it contaminates 00:21:56.140 --> 00:21:59.619 the animals But when you look at the actual facts 00:21:59.619 --> 00:22:03.720 of the case, none of those animals are discarded. 00:22:03.859 --> 00:22:06.940 They go to slaughter and they're eaten. So there's 00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:09.859 clearly not a problem with contamination of the 00:22:09.859 --> 00:22:13.579 animals or spreading disease. And so, you know, 00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:16.839 their argument for doing that is out the window. 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:21.259 So we'll see what happens. And that may have 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:27.109 winning that case. in total may have a substantial 00:22:27.109 --> 00:22:30.309 impact on the ability of people to talk out about 00:22:30.309 --> 00:22:33.690 things and to actually document things. But that's 00:22:33.690 --> 00:22:39.430 just Ontario. Now, you know, as the courts function, 00:22:39.890 --> 00:22:43.309 they often refer to cases that are outside of 00:22:43.309 --> 00:22:45.250 their jurisdiction. You know, something comes 00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:48.430 up in Alberta and there's a challenge about free 00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:52.089 speech. Somebody may use the issue from Ontario 00:22:52.089 --> 00:22:56.670 to bolster their case. But, you know, it largely, 00:22:56.670 --> 00:22:58.630 I think, affects Ontario. It may affect beyond 00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:01.849 that. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't really know. 00:23:03.549 --> 00:23:10.309 Talking about contamination, I followed closely 00:23:10.309 --> 00:23:15.589 the work of activists in the US who documented 00:23:15.589 --> 00:23:21.349 what's happening on the avian influenza front 00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:25.849 and that epidemic and how it affected and still 00:23:25.849 --> 00:23:36.089 affects the industry. Have we been impacted by 00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:42.910 this epidemic? Because I did not see news outlets 00:23:42.910 --> 00:23:46.750 covering the price of eggs in Canada or something 00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:55.750 like that. B .C. was the hardest hit. And we've 00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:57.950 killed, I think, a million chickens in Canada. 00:23:58.450 --> 00:24:00.509 I'm not sure exactly of the number, but it's 00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:04.089 huge. And of course, that wouldn't take a long 00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:06.369 time to come because many of the barns have 40, 00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:12.369 50, 60 ,000 chickens in them. And it depends, 00:24:12.369 --> 00:24:16.089 I guess, on whether they're egg layers or whether 00:24:16.089 --> 00:24:19.170 they're raised to be eaten quickly, broilers, 00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:27.180 they call them. they've had to kill many, many, 00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:29.880 many chickens. It's affected a number of barns 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:37.519 in BC. And they had to hire contract out people 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:40.140 to do the killing in some of the barns because 00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:43.059 the CFIA, Canadian Food Inspection Agency couldn't 00:24:43.059 --> 00:24:46.559 handle it. And what they found was that those 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.440 people who are not particularly trained in doing 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:57.079 this job, were contaminating non -contaminated 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:00.000 barns when they traveled from barn to barn and 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.319 spreading the virus. So there was a report about 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.339 that. So it was not particularly well done and 00:25:06.339 --> 00:25:09.059 we really don't have the facilities to do it. 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:12.559 And beyond that, it is one of the cruelest way 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.819 to kill animals. They basically suffocate them. 00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:21.880 They often use foam to suffocate them. you think 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:25.900 about what those birds go through, you know, 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:28.960 not because of their fault, but because of the 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:30.779 fault of people around them and the way in which 00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:35.319 they're raised and so on. And the cruelty is 00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:39.000 incredible. And try to get information out about 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.940 how that takes place, what it looks like. Do 00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:47.720 they have pictures? It's a no -go. This is a 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:52.980 very niche question, but What do you make of 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:58.740 this new trend? Maybe it's not new, but it feels 00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:04.700 like it's a new trend in the past years of having 00:26:04.700 --> 00:26:09.920 backyard chickens. There were laws passed in 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:15.059 many Quebec cities here that authorize people 00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:20.640 to keep chickens in their backyard. Don't you 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.119 think that there is a risk of contamination with 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.839 this whole, you know, even influence a thing? 00:26:27.339 --> 00:26:31.700 Are we playing with fire with, you know, by allowing 00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:35.440 people to keep chickens in their backyard? I 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.000 actually think we're playing with fire. Yes, 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.940 we were able to get the city of Toronto to back 00:26:40.940 --> 00:26:44.160 off the bylaw that we're allowing chickens in 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.160 the backyard. It was a big fight because people 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.480 wanted those chickens. and you know it's like 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:53.740 you think about it just you rent them. You don't 00:26:53.740 --> 00:26:56.960 think you know you rent your these little animals 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:01.180 and you rent the housing for them and you stick 00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:03.039 them in your backyard and you love them for a 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:05.160 few months until they stop laying then you send 00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.880 them back and nobody knows what happens to them. 00:27:08.299 --> 00:27:10.680 The the owners of some of the rented chicken 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:13.740 facilities say oh well you know we take care 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:16.539 of your chickens and love them and you'll get 00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:19.799 your same chickens back but nobody really knows 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:25.900 and you know and beyond that what is also shocking 00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:30.420 to many people is that we mail chicks out to 00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:33.200 people who want backyard chickens so we put them 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.700 in Canada Post and mail them and you know you 00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:42.259 look at this whole situation not only is it cruel 00:27:42.259 --> 00:27:45.960 and ridiculous, because the eggs cost about $2 00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:52.240 an egg, it is also the cruelty and the insanity 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.299 of it, but yes, you're playing with fire. It's 00:27:55.299 --> 00:28:01.539 like that avian influenza is very, very contagious, 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.180 and you can't stop other birds from coming into 00:28:05.180 --> 00:28:08.380 your backyard with the chickens. And, you know, 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:10.380 and that's how the contamination happens. So 00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:13.220 the City of Toronto decided to ban it altogether, 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.440 which was great. But many other communities are 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:21.500 going on as though nothing's happening. And, 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.640 you know, the problem with avian influence is 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.859 it's transmitting to other animals and it's been 00:28:27.859 --> 00:28:32.359 transmitted to people from animals. It hasn't 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:35.440 transmitted from people to people yet. But this 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.900 is a virus that is evolving. And somehow we think 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:44.920 that it's all good and that nothing's going to 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.019 happen. And, you know, we could be in a situation 00:28:48.019 --> 00:28:52.240 like COVID all over again and much more serious 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:56.779 because there are no vaccines for it. And I think 00:28:56.779 --> 00:28:59.279 we're just playing with fire. So, yeah, I would 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.880 recommend every community in Canada ban backyard 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:11.309 chickens. What do you mean by mailing chicks? 00:29:13.230 --> 00:29:16.170 Well, they put them in a box. They seal the box. 00:29:16.369 --> 00:29:19.190 They put a stamp on it and they put it in Canada 00:29:19.190 --> 00:29:26.430 Post. Chicks. Live chicks. And is it only an 00:29:26.430 --> 00:29:29.490 Ontario thing? Like, is there a limit to how 00:29:29.490 --> 00:29:32.490 many days? It's Canada Post. Canada Post does 00:29:32.490 --> 00:29:36.190 it. Required to do it. And they could spend days 00:29:36.190 --> 00:29:41.890 in that box. Well, they indicate that there's 00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:47.130 something live in the box. So it's supposed to 00:29:47.130 --> 00:29:50.210 get moving, but you can imagine we had a strike. 00:29:51.329 --> 00:29:53.509 It happened at a time when the chicks probably 00:29:53.509 --> 00:29:56.390 aren't moving, but we had a strike. If that had 00:29:56.390 --> 00:29:59.450 happened in the summertime, the chicks would 00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:01.470 have died. They would have simply starved to 00:30:01.470 --> 00:30:08.519 death or suffocated. And so, you know, you look 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:12.460 at this thing and you think, that's just cruelty. 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:16.119 There's no way around it. You can't do this. 00:30:16.299 --> 00:30:22.740 And yet it's accepted as a standard way to get 00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:27.480 chicks. We've tried to fight it, but we haven't 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:31.940 been successful at this point. It's pretty shocking 00:30:31.940 --> 00:30:36.440 what we do to animals, isn't it? I'm I'm I don't 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:40.019 know what to say. I think I've been vegan for 00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:43.660 the last 10 years. I'm still shocked by the level 00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:47.579 of cruelty and and what it means really what 00:30:47.579 --> 00:30:54.259 it means to treat people sentient beings as as 00:30:54.259 --> 00:30:59.799 objects. Yep. Yep. Well, you know, our standards 00:31:00.650 --> 00:31:03.930 at least in the United States are lowering because 00:31:03.930 --> 00:31:07.490 we're allowed to steal people off a sidewalk, 00:31:08.470 --> 00:31:10.829 send them to a detention center, and then ship 00:31:10.829 --> 00:31:16.109 them to another country to their prison system. 00:31:16.809 --> 00:31:19.329 So, you know, you look at that situation and 00:31:19.329 --> 00:31:22.049 you think, you know, what we're doing, if what 00:31:22.049 --> 00:31:26.190 we do to human beings is acceptable, our own 00:31:26.190 --> 00:31:29.559 species, Why do we think it's going to be different 00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:34.980 for species that look different from us, behave 00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:37.980 differently, communicate differently? People 00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:41.779 look at them and don't know what to make of them. 00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:48.740 And we're lucky in the sense that we have a fairly 00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:52.619 large community of people who are compassionate 00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:59.569 and want to make a change. And so we need to 00:31:59.569 --> 00:32:02.549 keep working at that. We have to get up out of 00:32:02.549 --> 00:32:04.950 bed every morning, even if we don't want to face 00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:07.869 the day and face the awful situation that animals 00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:11.549 go through. But we have to do it so that we never 00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:14.869 give up on this issue. And we never give up on 00:32:14.869 --> 00:32:17.089 trying to protect the animals that we know are 00:32:17.089 --> 00:32:21.849 subjected to abuse, misuse, cruelty, whatever 00:32:21.849 --> 00:32:27.539 you want to call it. Yes, I think the difference 00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:32.779 is when we talk about human rights, there's a 00:32:32.779 --> 00:32:36.680 much larger network of people and organizations 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:41.160 and so much funding dedicated to shedding light 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:46.519 on those issues. But, you know, you could be 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:49.160 a vegan of 10 years living in Canada and not 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:55.599 even be aware that there are chicks being mailed 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:01.559 by Canada Post, you know, the, the information 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:05.519 that how, you know, it is all done in darkness 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:12.119 and silence. It's an indifference of the public. 00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:17.759 It's, that's, I think, the real difference between 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.420 human rights and animal rights. I think that's 00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:24.900 why the Animal Protection Party of Canada is 00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:28.380 so important. It's the only animal protection 00:33:28.380 --> 00:33:34.200 party in Canada and we've been around since 2006 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:39.000 and it's small because we live in a first -past 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:42.279 -the -post system. But if you look at Party for 00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.309 the Animals in the Netherlands, where they have 00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:48.410 proportional representation. They've actually 00:33:48.410 --> 00:33:52.069 elected representatives to the European Union, 00:33:52.410 --> 00:33:56.789 to the European Parliament. They have elected 00:33:56.789 --> 00:33:59.329 officials to their national government and all 00:33:59.329 --> 00:34:01.849 the way down to local governments. It's done 00:34:01.849 --> 00:34:06.130 differently than we do here. But they have been 00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:13.119 able to expose and have documentation that they 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.420 have access to. They get government money because 00:34:16.420 --> 00:34:18.480 they're a political party and they have representatives 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:22.519 elected. And they've begun a real active, aggressive 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:26.780 debate in the Netherlands about animals and the 00:34:26.780 --> 00:34:30.300 environment and the cruelty. And we have a real 00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:32.920 opportunity to do it here. And that's why the 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:37.159 Animal Protection Party is participating in another 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.170 challenge, charter challenge. which is the proportional 00:34:42.170 --> 00:34:45.869 representation. Fair Voting BC and Springtide 00:34:45.869 --> 00:34:48.690 are the two entities that are leading the charge 00:34:48.690 --> 00:34:51.789 on that. We've participated by donating to the 00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:55.369 cause and we're going, when it gets to the Supreme 00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:58.630 Court, if it does, we will ask to be interveners 00:34:58.630 --> 00:35:01.349 as the only political party that's fair talking 00:35:01.349 --> 00:35:05.969 about this issue, if you can imagine. I think 00:35:05.969 --> 00:35:08.510 that's the, you know, if we want to close that 00:35:08.590 --> 00:35:10.789 conversation about the difference between the 00:35:10.789 --> 00:35:14.010 US and Canada, I think that's what the US will 00:35:14.010 --> 00:35:17.789 never have the hope of a proportional democratic 00:35:17.789 --> 00:35:24.050 system, where an animal protection party can 00:35:24.050 --> 00:35:28.869 reach power. But but we do have that hope. And 00:35:28.869 --> 00:35:33.369 if, if we can get there, I do think it's you 00:35:33.369 --> 00:35:36.289 have convinced me that it would be, you know, 00:35:36.409 --> 00:35:41.610 checkmate. and we could make a really huge impact. 00:35:42.550 --> 00:35:45.630 Yeah, we're the just for an example, in this 00:35:45.630 --> 00:35:49.349 election, Pierre Poliev says he's going to open 00:35:49.349 --> 00:35:52.730 up the seal hunt again. No markets know anything. 00:35:53.050 --> 00:35:55.289 They're talking about grinding them up for fertilizer. 00:35:56.550 --> 00:35:59.469 And we're the only party that has a position 00:35:59.469 --> 00:36:04.010 on it. Other than the conservatives who want 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:09.219 to increase it. So I think we are able to participate 00:36:09.219 --> 00:36:14.260 fully in the election. We can take out ads and 00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:17.820 talk about the seal hunt and so on. So we're 00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:21.380 able to actually on the ground during that very 00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:24.800 critical time when people are more actively looking 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:29.400 at alternatives, we're there to provide that 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:36.719 alternative if they so choose. And so I want 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.599 to spend a moment talking about wildlife You 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.940 mentioned Seals which is you know, I've been 00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:47.860 hearing about talent long before I was even vegan 00:36:47.860 --> 00:36:51.699 People don't want to see that they don't want 00:36:51.699 --> 00:36:57.599 you know seal hunting Seals are just those the 00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:01.820 cutest creatures out there And and the way they 00:37:01.820 --> 00:37:04.960 hunt them is just the most you know, barbaric 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.400 thing you could ever watch, you know, the footage 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:13.440 of that. So how is it that it's not, you know, 00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:18.480 more of a popular political issue? I feel like 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:22.480 political parties could, you know, make it an 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:27.000 issue and gain lots of popularity with voters. 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:32.099 Well, there's a couple of things. This issue 00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:34.420 has been going on for a very, very long time. 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:38.780 And a colleague of mine, Stephen Best, worked 00:37:38.780 --> 00:37:42.159 on, and Barry Mackay worked on the initial fight 00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:45.679 and it was a big issue. It was huge, huge debate. 00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:50.820 And ultimately they want to ban on the import 00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:55.260 of white coats, the very, very, the babies of 00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:57.940 the seals. And that's what they were after originally 00:37:57.940 --> 00:38:00.599 taking the the white coats because that was the 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.380 most sought after fur. Once they're past the 00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:06.280 white coat stage, which is about two or three 00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:09.579 weeks, they become what they call beaters and 00:38:09.579 --> 00:38:15.599 their fur is very stiff, silvery, blotchy, not 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:20.179 really the kind of fur that's going to really 00:38:20.179 --> 00:38:23.820 be acquired by people who want to wear fur coats. 00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:29.099 They then became, when that happened, the seal 00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:32.480 industry went down the tubes for a while. And 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.000 then under the Liberal Party, it came back in 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:42.239 a huge way. They set the kill at 340 ,000 seals, 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.199 I think. And they never reached that amount, 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:47.780 but they took an awful lot of seals out of that. 00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:50.960 And that's again when they went to the European 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:54.340 Union, European Parliament, to say, would you 00:38:54.340 --> 00:38:57.460 consider this is too high a number you know it's 00:38:57.460 --> 00:39:00.820 affecting the seal population global warming 00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:03.880 is happening the seals need ice to to to have 00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:06.820 their babies on and the ice is disappearing could 00:39:06.820 --> 00:39:11.260 you ban the import of seal products into the 00:39:11.260 --> 00:39:14.420 european union and in fact they did and that 00:39:14.420 --> 00:39:19.019 brought the seal hunt down again there is a challenge 00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:22.019 at the european parliament as to whether they're 00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:27.269 going to reopen and consider retaking the seal 00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:31.690 products. But I think there's enough opposition 00:39:31.690 --> 00:39:35.750 in Europe that that's not going to happen. So, 00:39:35.909 --> 00:39:38.030 you know, these animals are being killed because 00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:41.570 there's no market. And if Poliev opens the market, 00:39:41.869 --> 00:39:43.590 there'll be more animals killed and there's no 00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:47.929 market. The last time, not the last time, but 00:39:47.929 --> 00:39:52.190 the time before The first time he appeared on 00:39:52.190 --> 00:39:56.309 the show, we talked about also the bears and 00:39:56.309 --> 00:40:00.449 the market for, you know, hunting bears and how 00:40:00.449 --> 00:40:03.750 it was even international. We have people from 00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:07.190 all over the world, mostly the US coming to Canada 00:40:07.190 --> 00:40:14.409 to hunt bears. Has there been any evolution in 00:40:14.409 --> 00:40:18.309 that regard? And do you think that with a conservative 00:40:18.309 --> 00:40:21.690 government? Um, hunting bears and hunting in 00:40:21.690 --> 00:40:26.630 general, um, would be, you know, um, more open 00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:31.289 and less restrictive and, um, more, you know, 00:40:31.489 --> 00:40:36.369 indifference to animal welfare. Um, under the 00:40:36.369 --> 00:40:40.190 conservative party, really they haven't done 00:40:40.190 --> 00:40:44.409 a lot of changes to the fish and wildlife conservation 00:40:44.409 --> 00:40:48.889 act. The only thing that they did, which was 00:40:48.889 --> 00:40:53.130 egregious, totally egregious, is that the fishermen 00:40:53.130 --> 00:40:56.989 don't like cormorants. So cormorants are big 00:40:56.989 --> 00:41:00.429 black birds that, you know, dive in the water, 00:41:00.909 --> 00:41:04.570 eat the fish, and then they come out, they nest 00:41:04.570 --> 00:41:06.929 in trees, their guano kills the trees. So they 00:41:06.929 --> 00:41:10.949 changed the topography of the area that they 00:41:10.949 --> 00:41:14.289 are in. In Toronto, we have the largest cormorant 00:41:14.289 --> 00:41:18.010 colony in North America, right at the bottom 00:41:18.010 --> 00:41:24.269 of the city near the lake. And we've been able 00:41:24.269 --> 00:41:27.610 to protect those, but in the province itself, 00:41:28.309 --> 00:41:31.010 the provincial government opened up hunting. 00:41:31.230 --> 00:41:34.550 Nobody eats cormorants, nobody. So when they 00:41:34.550 --> 00:41:36.710 shoot cormorants, they have to waste them. So 00:41:36.710 --> 00:41:40.429 they had to amend the act to allow people to 00:41:40.429 --> 00:41:42.250 just shoot them and leave them there. If you 00:41:42.250 --> 00:41:44.730 had to bear, you can't waste that animal. You 00:41:44.730 --> 00:41:48.150 have to use the pelt, use the meat, all that 00:41:48.150 --> 00:41:52.630 sort of stuff. Same with deer and so on. But 00:41:52.630 --> 00:42:00.309 we had a massive victory in Ontario in quite 00:42:00.309 --> 00:42:07.500 a while ago. they prohibited bear hunting in 00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:09.719 the spring. And the problem with spring bear 00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:12.760 hunting is that often mother bears are killed 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:17.360 and the cubs are left to be orphans. So they, 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:19.440 you know, more than one bear dies, of course, 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.199 and of course it's cruel and all that sort of 00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.059 stuff. So they decided at that point under Mike 00:42:25.059 --> 00:42:27.599 Harris, actually, another conservative government 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.539 to ban the spring bear hunt, which they did. 00:42:30.699 --> 00:42:34.369 And then under Kathleen Wynne's government, they 00:42:34.369 --> 00:42:36.710 decided that they needed more northern volts 00:42:36.710 --> 00:42:39.030 and so they opened up the spring bear hunt again. 00:42:39.090 --> 00:42:43.510 So we lost that all together and so spring bear 00:42:43.510 --> 00:42:47.010 hunts continue. You can't hint any other animal 00:42:47.010 --> 00:42:49.570 in the spring because they consider it to be 00:42:49.570 --> 00:42:55.429 cruel, but bears are okay. And so bears are killed 00:42:55.429 --> 00:42:58.210 in the spring and in the fall. The government 00:42:58.210 --> 00:43:01.050 doesn't really collect, you know, they used to 00:43:01.050 --> 00:43:04.800 collect great detailed information about what 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:06.760 type of bears were being killed. How old were 00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:10.159 they? Were they male and female? Was one a lactating 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.739 female? You know, all that sort of stuff. The 00:43:14.739 --> 00:43:17.539 other thing that they allow is baiting. So you 00:43:17.539 --> 00:43:20.480 put out a pail of donuts and honey and all sorts 00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.440 of things that smell good to a bear to attract 00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:25.659 them to the bait site. And then they have to 00:43:25.659 --> 00:43:30.460 reach up to get the food out of the drum. And 00:43:30.460 --> 00:43:33.619 then the hunters say that they can tell what 00:43:33.619 --> 00:43:35.760 the sex of the bear is so they don't shoot females 00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:39.699 but that is in fact not the case and of course 00:43:39.699 --> 00:43:44.280 there are lots of females shot and some of them 00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:49.340 lactating. So you know the whole thing and that's 00:43:49.340 --> 00:43:53.300 pretty true across Canada and of course in Alberta 00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:55.860 we're talking about also hunting grizzly bears 00:43:55.860 --> 00:44:03.079 which are small in number. And that's in order 00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.039 to attract people from the United States to come 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:09.019 up and hunt trophy hunting. So, you know, from 00:44:09.019 --> 00:44:15.400 an animal protection point of view, it's pretty 00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:22.300 wicked out there for any wild animal. They tend 00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:25.739 to be persecuted by some group or other, and 00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:30.000 often hunted by some group or other. You know, 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.159 it's very, very difficult to get it stopped. 00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:37.840 What about the use of poison to kill wildlife? 00:44:40.460 --> 00:44:47.039 So we started that campaign quite a long time 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.480 ago. In fact, it was right at the very beginning 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.599 of Animal Alliance that we took on British Columbia 00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:54.900 because they were using poisons to kill wolves 00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:57.949 and stuff. and they actually put a pause on that 00:44:57.949 --> 00:45:00.670 and the pause has continued to this day. So the 00:45:00.670 --> 00:45:03.769 only province now, and then it used to be Alberta, 00:45:04.789 --> 00:45:09.250 Saskatchewan and Manitoba, we've been able to 00:45:09.250 --> 00:45:12.010 get stuff, strychnine that they were using to 00:45:12.010 --> 00:45:14.630 kill Richardson's ground squirrels, which they 00:45:14.630 --> 00:45:18.429 don't like in animal agriculture business, stopped 00:45:18.429 --> 00:45:23.889 and the use of of other poisons we've been able 00:45:23.889 --> 00:45:27.289 to stop. So we're now down to Alberta. Alberta 00:45:27.289 --> 00:45:32.889 used to use compound 1080 or monosodium fluoroacetate 00:45:32.889 --> 00:45:39.769 or strychnine to kill wolves and to protect caribou 00:45:39.769 --> 00:45:44.530 and to kill wolves and coyotes to protect agriculture, 00:45:45.190 --> 00:45:48.530 animals, farmed animals. and we managed to get 00:45:48.530 --> 00:45:52.010 the strychnine banned. So we're now down to one 00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:56.269 province, one poison, and we're in the process 00:45:56.269 --> 00:45:58.489 of building a campaign to get that eliminated 00:45:58.489 --> 00:46:03.449 as well. It's, I mean, I don't know whether anybody's 00:46:03.449 --> 00:46:06.449 looked at videos of this stuff, but you know, 00:46:06.489 --> 00:46:09.130 in other countries they often use things like 00:46:09.130 --> 00:46:12.510 strychnine and Compound 80 to kill animals in 00:46:12.510 --> 00:46:16.630 cities where they've become nuisance and people 00:46:16.630 --> 00:46:19.690 have taken videos and when you look at what the 00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:22.110 animal goes through after eating compound 1080 00:46:22.110 --> 00:46:26.269 or strychnine it's just heart -wrenching and 00:46:26.269 --> 00:46:28.929 you know things you can't erase from your mind 00:46:28.929 --> 00:46:32.610 and so the faster we get this done the better 00:46:32.610 --> 00:46:35.969 but we've made very real progress over the last 00:46:35.969 --> 00:46:43.750 10 or 15 years. And a complex question I've had 00:46:43.750 --> 00:46:49.150 in mind for a long time now is what do you make 00:46:49.150 --> 00:46:54.050 of the argument from hunters that say, hey, there 00:46:54.050 --> 00:46:57.989 is an overpopulation of this or that species 00:46:57.989 --> 00:47:02.309 in the wild. And so we need to reduce their numbers. 00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:08.449 Is there any validity to that? We're just doing, 00:47:08.570 --> 00:47:12.070 we've just been working on this issue of overpopulation. 00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:18.039 And, you know, what the hunters, and in fact, 00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:21.980 some government agencies, the Ontario government, 00:47:22.219 --> 00:47:24.539 I believe the Quebec government at some times, 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:29.679 and that our national park system often deem 00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:32.820 animals as being hyperabundant, overabundant, 00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:35.400 overpopulated are the various terms that they 00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:42.809 use. And you say, okay, we're looking at a dynamic 00:47:42.809 --> 00:47:48.010 ecosystem. We're looking at global warming and 00:47:48.010 --> 00:47:52.590 dynamic changes to the ecosystem. And by what 00:47:52.590 --> 00:47:55.909 measure are you determining something to be overpopulated 00:47:55.909 --> 00:48:01.289 or hyperabundant? And it's strictly based on 00:48:01.289 --> 00:48:05.989 their opinion about what a particular area is 00:48:05.989 --> 00:48:09.769 to look like. So with the cormorants, on Middle 00:48:09.769 --> 00:48:14.630 Island, which is in Lake Erie in Ontario, Parks 00:48:14.630 --> 00:48:18.309 Canada deemed them to be hyperabundant on Middle 00:48:18.309 --> 00:48:21.710 Island, one island, one island in the middle 00:48:21.710 --> 00:48:24.429 of a bunch of islands in Lake Erie, an island 00:48:24.429 --> 00:48:30.809 that nobody can go to. It was bought up by and 00:48:30.809 --> 00:48:34.989 Parks Canada or the groups that bought it transferred 00:48:34.989 --> 00:48:37.969 it over to Parks Canada under Point Pelee National 00:48:37.969 --> 00:48:41.889 Park. They determined the cormorants to be hyperabundant 00:48:41.889 --> 00:48:45.750 and since 2008 have conducted culling programs 00:48:45.750 --> 00:48:49.449 on Middle Island so that the vegetation looks 00:48:49.449 --> 00:48:52.269 the same as it did before the cormorants came. 00:48:54.030 --> 00:49:01.230 So there's no sense of evolution In an ecosystem, 00:49:01.690 --> 00:49:05.150 there's no sense that there has to be space for 00:49:05.150 --> 00:49:09.329 animals that change topographies and ecosystems. 00:49:09.869 --> 00:49:12.849 You know, these are the type of animals that 00:49:12.849 --> 00:49:17.730 are change makers, right? That they go in and 00:49:17.730 --> 00:49:20.730 they change the environment. And people don't 00:49:20.730 --> 00:49:24.110 like what they see, so they want them gone. And 00:49:24.110 --> 00:49:26.989 what we've managed to do with a large population 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:31.460 in Toronto and I invite people in the summertime, 00:49:32.659 --> 00:49:35.119 spring and summertime to come and go to Tommy 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:39.019 Thompson Park and revel in the amazingness of 00:49:39.019 --> 00:49:43.019 this water bird colony in a highly dense urban 00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:47.239 environment and they're thriving but they agreed, 00:49:47.420 --> 00:49:49.980 the people managing them agreed to do an alternative 00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:53.239 approach so they They want to keep trees in certain 00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:55.460 areas. They don't care about trees in other areas. 00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:58.539 So they chase the cormorants out of the treed 00:49:58.539 --> 00:50:01.159 areas into the areas where they want them. They've 00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.460 encouraged ground nesting as opposed to tree 00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:09.360 nesting. And I think 75 % of the colony now nests 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:12.000 on the ground. And so it's been a tremendous 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.079 success. So it shows you that you can do things 00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:18.420 differently. But the go -to in most of these 00:50:18.420 --> 00:50:21.679 situations where they claim hyperabundance is 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:28.139 killing. And we don't really hear that much about 00:50:28.139 --> 00:50:35.780 underpopulation in certain areas. We have growing 00:50:35.780 --> 00:50:40.760 cities that are eating more and more territories, 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:47.340 ecosystems, and nobody is talking about how in 00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:52.219 those cities there's no biodiversity, there is 00:50:52.219 --> 00:50:57.599 no where all of the species that were supposed 00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:01.539 to to live there. And now it's all grades, all 00:51:01.539 --> 00:51:07.900 as felted, it's all Yeah. Yeah. The interesting 00:51:07.900 --> 00:51:10.380 thing about the city of Toronto is that it's 00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:15.619 highly dense, for sure. But we have lots of ravine 00:51:15.619 --> 00:51:20.239 systems and and places where wildlife can hang 00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:25.380 out. And so we actually have a very rich mix 00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:29.940 of animals that can coexist with human beings 00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:36.460 and feel comfortable there. The issue becomes, 00:51:36.460 --> 00:51:38.880 of course, can human beings be comfortable with 00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:42.900 the animals? And in fact, we have one issue right 00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:48.039 now. where there's a lot of in -dust development 00:51:48.039 --> 00:51:53.340 going on in along the lake in very, very dense 00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:56.960 communities already, but Ontario Place, they're 00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:00.380 redeveloping. It was a great piece of land with 00:52:00.380 --> 00:52:03.719 trees and hardly anybody there. And so there 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:06.699 was a lot of wildlife there. They have been disturbed 00:52:06.699 --> 00:52:12.030 and have moved into this highly dense area. particular 00:52:12.030 --> 00:52:14.989 is coyotes particularly that have done this and 00:52:14.989 --> 00:52:18.690 they are now you know uh conflicting with the 00:52:18.690 --> 00:52:21.889 residents there who want to have their dogs off 00:52:21.889 --> 00:52:24.599 the leash let them run around you know, do all 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:26.199 that sort of thing, which is really great for 00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.739 the dogs, except that if there's a coyote in 00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:31.619 the area and the dog is little, it may be that 00:52:31.619 --> 00:52:34.019 the coyote will try and take that little dog. 00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:37.179 And if it's off leash somewhere away from you, 00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:39.539 you can't protect it. So we're going through 00:52:39.539 --> 00:52:44.639 a massive discussion about living coexisting 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:50.000 peacefully with coyotes and our animal services. 00:52:50.780 --> 00:52:53.619 folks are doing a really, really good job at 00:52:53.619 --> 00:52:56.400 mitigating, trying to mitigate some of the conflicts. 00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:01.539 But the residents want the coyotes killed and 00:53:01.539 --> 00:53:04.619 removed. So we're into that kind of discussion. 00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:07.739 So we'll see how it evolves. But we, you know, 00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:12.260 if we can get over this hurdle, we can learn 00:53:12.260 --> 00:53:15.690 to live with coyotes. in the area and in fact 00:53:15.690 --> 00:53:18.550 in other communities it's been done in other 00:53:18.550 --> 00:53:21.329 parts of Toronto it's been done but for some 00:53:21.329 --> 00:53:24.550 reason we're into a real fight on this one so 00:53:24.550 --> 00:53:26.750 these are important fights where you lay down 00:53:26.750 --> 00:53:28.510 the line and you say no we're going to fight 00:53:28.510 --> 00:53:31.550 this if we lose we lose but you know we won't 00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:33.670 don't want to agree that the coyotes should be 00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:37.730 removed lethally removed out of this area because 00:53:37.730 --> 00:53:39.670 the residents don't want to put their dogs on 00:53:39.670 --> 00:53:46.989 a leash. So, you know, in the long run, I think 00:53:46.989 --> 00:53:52.550 it's really important that urban areas learn 00:53:52.550 --> 00:53:59.250 to attract, accommodate, enjoy, live with, leave 00:53:59.250 --> 00:54:03.489 alone wildlife, because we are, as you say, chewing 00:54:03.489 --> 00:54:09.230 up what would be their wild territory and putting 00:54:09.230 --> 00:54:13.420 housing all over the place. So if we can build 00:54:13.420 --> 00:54:15.960 the community in a way that allows corridors, 00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:20.519 you know, forested corridors through the communities 00:54:20.519 --> 00:54:23.239 so that the animals can travel safely, they don't 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:26.519 have to go on the road. If we can have ravines 00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:30.619 and large parks with areas that are protected 00:54:30.619 --> 00:54:34.320 from people, we can accommodate wildlife nicely 00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:38.059 and increase the diversity in our own communities. 00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:42.699 and become ecologically friendly kind of a weird 00:54:42.699 --> 00:54:47.480 question but do you do you think that environmentalists 00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:55.380 are our allies no absolutely not please expand 00:54:55.380 --> 00:54:57.920 isn't one environmental group that i know of 00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:01.039 that has spoken out about the cormorants and 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:04.880 we've been uh fighting this thing for 20 years 00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:09.159 Culling Cormons on Middle Island began in 2008 00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:13.800 and, you know, we're close to 20 years, 18 years 00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:17.719 or so. So nobody has spoken out about it. In 00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:21.780 fact, you know, the groups that got together 00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:24.760 to buy Middle Island and then donate it to Parks 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:28.360 Canada have not spoken out about it. In fact, 00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:31.199 some of the groups want the call. They want the 00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:34.260 vegetation. They don't want the birds. And, you 00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:37.800 know, cormorants were persecuted were down to 00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:42.900 about a thousand individuals because they were 00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:46.760 so persecuted and they've made this uh and then 00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:49.340 they were you know that they were the persecution 00:55:49.340 --> 00:55:51.519 stopped but then ddd came around and they were 00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:55.059 hit with that and so they've now made this miraculous 00:55:55.059 --> 00:55:59.440 comeback an amazing comeback into you know a 00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:03.250 couple of million birds not a lot um and and 00:56:03.250 --> 00:56:06.170 they seem to be thriving and yet what do we want 00:56:06.170 --> 00:56:08.070 to do we want to persecute them and kill them 00:56:08.070 --> 00:56:13.590 again i mean you know i i don't find environmental 00:56:13.590 --> 00:56:17.210 groups standing up for these sort of things no 00:56:17.210 --> 00:56:22.269 and you mentioned how the animal protection party 00:56:22.269 --> 00:56:29.179 is the only party wanting a proportional democratic 00:56:29.179 --> 00:56:32.940 system. So that means that excludes the Green 00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:38.579 Party. The Green Party, I don't know what the 00:56:38.579 --> 00:56:41.059 position is. The provincial Green Party used 00:56:41.059 --> 00:56:43.940 to have a position on partial representation. 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.699 And then I don't I think they don't now. I'm 00:56:46.699 --> 00:56:49.739 not sure. But I'm wrong on that. Actually, I 00:56:49.739 --> 00:56:52.260 think they they do support proportional representation. 00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:55.280 I don't know about the federal party. But they're 00:56:55.280 --> 00:57:00.239 not participating in the court case. There's 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.639 not one party other than ours that have participated 00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:06.280 in the court case. So you've got to ask yourself, 00:57:06.820 --> 00:57:13.800 what is it going to take to... If Trudeau, who 00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.059 promised to bring in proportional representation, 00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:21.340 didn't do it and other elected officials are 00:57:21.340 --> 00:57:25.710 not particularly supportive of the idea, Then, 00:57:25.869 --> 00:57:30.489 you know, how do we get it to happen? And, and, 00:57:30.670 --> 00:57:32.690 you know, I don't know that the Greens have been 00:57:32.690 --> 00:57:35.550 that active in this whole, this whole fight. 00:57:36.969 --> 00:57:40.369 Well, you know, I don't care what they say. I 00:57:40.369 --> 00:57:43.210 want to see action. Why are you not on the front 00:57:43.210 --> 00:57:47.909 line of this legal fight? Yep. Yep. I think, 00:57:47.909 --> 00:57:51.170 you know, when you when you think about it, if 00:57:51.170 --> 00:57:54.730 we had one person, in Parliament. Let's just 00:57:54.730 --> 00:58:01.510 say one. We would not be able to talk very much, 00:58:02.210 --> 00:58:04.570 but we would be able to talk, we would be able 00:58:04.570 --> 00:58:07.610 to ask questions, but we would be able to logically 00:58:07.610 --> 00:58:11.070 dig for information out of the party, right? 00:58:13.889 --> 00:58:18.409 Out of the government. So we could dig away at 00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:22.719 situations around the CFIA, around the expenditures 00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:27.219 and calling it Parks Canada, the research issue, 00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:32.920 the funding for research through the various 00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:36.420 entities that fund research in Canada. We could 00:58:36.420 --> 00:58:39.659 do all of that. We could start getting the information 00:58:39.659 --> 00:58:43.920 out publicly on those issues, even just having 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:48.219 one person in Parliament. And so, you know, you 00:58:48.219 --> 00:58:52.059 have to ask yourself, even in our movement, the 00:58:52.059 --> 00:58:58.400 animal rights movement, why are we not more electorally 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.539 and politically engaged? Because they're the 00:59:01.539 --> 00:59:04.260 people who make the decisions. Who lives, who 00:59:04.260 --> 00:59:08.559 dies, who suffers, by how much, how often, all 00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:13.260 of those issues are decided by governments. And 00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:18.789 we seem to think that If we just show governments 00:59:18.789 --> 00:59:21.469 how bad it is, they'll do something about it. 00:59:21.769 --> 00:59:24.670 But that's not how politics works. You know, 00:59:24.670 --> 00:59:27.110 they look at the agricultural community, the 00:59:27.110 --> 00:59:31.869 number of votes there. They look at our movement. 00:59:32.690 --> 00:59:36.289 They look at the people that are in the movement. 00:59:36.409 --> 00:59:38.090 They have no idea how they're going to vote. 00:59:38.929 --> 00:59:42.050 And so what's the political upside to doing anything? 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:46.739 And, you know, the first past the post just continues 00:59:46.739 --> 00:59:52.440 to make sure that that whole idea and consideration 00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:58.539 stays in place. Going back quickly to the environmentalists. 00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:04.599 What is their agenda exactly? Because at first, 01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:08.300 you know, I was very much, you know, aligned 01:00:08.300 --> 01:00:12.659 with them and I'm talking before becoming vegan. 01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:17.099 But then I had an evolution in my thinking and 01:00:17.099 --> 01:00:21.340 I felt strongly that becoming vegan was the best 01:00:21.340 --> 01:00:25.099 thing to do for the environment. And that's when 01:00:25.099 --> 01:00:31.619 I felt kind of a separation with the environmental 01:00:31.619 --> 01:00:36.579 movement and felt like they were not making lots 01:00:36.579 --> 01:00:40.760 of sense. And now I'm just confused, you know, 01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:45.719 what are they about? Well, you know, it's not 01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:51.280 that they're all bad. They fight, you know, they 01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:55.760 fought to protect the green space north of Toronto 01:00:55.760 --> 01:01:00.280 that Ford wanted to develop houses on. They fight 01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:05.420 for parks and for woodlots, protection of woodlots. 01:01:06.260 --> 01:01:10.000 And a lot of them do that kind of work very, 01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:13.690 very well. And that's really important because, 01:01:13.690 --> 01:01:18.349 of course, animals need a place to live. And 01:01:18.349 --> 01:01:20.670 the more of those places that we have, the better. 01:01:21.190 --> 01:01:30.429 But in a way, it's kind of like you defend the 01:01:30.429 --> 01:01:32.570 maintenance of an apartment building, but you 01:01:32.570 --> 01:01:39.739 don't defend the occupants. Do they allow hunting 01:01:39.739 --> 01:01:44.699 in these areas? What do they allow? And in some 01:01:44.699 --> 01:01:47.500 cases, they absolutely allow hunting in the wood 01:01:47.500 --> 01:01:51.619 lots that they've protected. They absolutely 01:01:51.619 --> 01:01:56.039 support Parks Canada and its culling programs. 01:01:57.420 --> 01:02:02.739 They support hunting in provincial parks by First 01:02:02.739 --> 01:02:07.079 Nations. So in a way across Canada, there is 01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:11.940 not a single area or much of a single area that 01:02:11.940 --> 01:02:17.400 animals can be in and safe. And so I think you've 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.360 got to ask yourself the question. You know, it's 01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:23.519 great, it's wonderful, absolutely fantastic to 01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:28.679 save the geography, but you also have to protect 01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:32.739 the occupants of the geography to make a full 01:02:32.739 --> 01:02:35.579 -blown ecosystem work. And so I think that's 01:02:35.579 --> 01:02:41.400 where they fall down. I love the image of defending 01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:44.039 the apartment block, the building itself, but 01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:47.460 not the occupants. I think it's, you know, exactly 01:02:47.460 --> 01:02:53.960 that. And what do you make then of environmental 01:02:53.960 --> 01:03:00.019 causes that have to do with protecting some subspecies 01:03:00.019 --> 01:03:04.960 of vegetation? Like I care about it. I will care 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:11.360 about it if it has an impact on the fauna, like 01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:14.599 an insect, a butterfly, something like that. 01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:19.780 But if it doesn't, then why should we care? I 01:03:19.780 --> 01:03:25.980 think we should care about plants. They're super 01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:29.699 important. in terms of the evolution of an ecosystem 01:03:29.699 --> 01:03:34.320 the provision of food and shelter and all that 01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.239 sort of stuff to species that we don't even know 01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:40.179 about like various types of insects and stuff. 01:03:41.420 --> 01:03:43.500 So I think it's really important where it becomes 01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:49.440 a problem is the where animals have been indigenous 01:03:49.440 --> 01:03:53.260 in the area and plants have been indigenous in 01:03:53.260 --> 01:03:57.969 the area and the area is evolving. an unmanaged 01:03:57.969 --> 01:04:01.409 ecosystem just evolving on its own, and the animals 01:04:01.409 --> 01:04:04.789 eat the plants, I think that's the way it is. 01:04:05.289 --> 01:04:09.389 But you see on Middle Island, Middle Island is 01:04:09.389 --> 01:04:14.210 part of a broader ecosystem that doesn't include 01:04:14.210 --> 01:04:16.170 most of Canada. It's just we're on the edge of 01:04:16.170 --> 01:04:20.650 it, the Carolinian biosphere. And so the plants 01:04:20.650 --> 01:04:25.599 on Middle Island are Carolinian. And Canada considers 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:29.579 them endangered because they're in Canada, and 01:04:29.579 --> 01:04:32.059 they're not considering them as part of the biosphere. 01:04:32.420 --> 01:04:34.219 If you looked at the plants that they are trying 01:04:34.219 --> 01:04:36.760 to protect from the cormorants in the biosphere, 01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:39.699 they're not endangered at all. And so why are 01:04:39.699 --> 01:04:43.000 we going through this massive, cruel killing 01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:45.920 program to save plants that are not endangered? 01:04:46.780 --> 01:04:51.300 And I think we have to figure out now how we 01:04:51.300 --> 01:04:54.849 look at an evolving ecosystem. Because plants 01:04:54.849 --> 01:04:57.070 are going to disappear. We're talking about, 01:04:57.070 --> 01:04:59.349 you know, the planet warming. We're talking about 01:04:59.349 --> 01:05:02.070 fires. We're talking about, you know, floods. 01:05:02.230 --> 01:05:05.570 We're talking about huge ice things, wind, you 01:05:05.570 --> 01:05:08.989 know, tornadoes and stuff. All of our ecosystem 01:05:08.989 --> 01:05:12.349 is going to evolve and change. And we need to 01:05:12.349 --> 01:05:17.269 allow the plants and the animals to begin to 01:05:17.269 --> 01:05:20.530 change what they need to change in order to survive 01:05:20.530 --> 01:05:23.929 the warming planet. and instead you know we say 01:05:23.929 --> 01:05:27.670 no this plant we have to protect these birds 01:05:27.670 --> 01:05:30.050 we have to kill these deer we have to get rid 01:05:30.050 --> 01:05:33.550 of you know these coyotes have to go all that 01:05:33.550 --> 01:05:37.369 sort of stuff and without recognizing and without 01:05:37.369 --> 01:05:40.989 even acknowledging this tremendous change that's 01:05:40.989 --> 01:05:44.110 beginning and coming and you know going to be 01:05:44.110 --> 01:05:47.949 overwhelming to many species and you know the 01:05:47.949 --> 01:05:50.090 species that can accommodate to it are the species 01:05:50.090 --> 01:05:52.730 that are going to survive. Yeah, we're still 01:05:52.730 --> 01:05:56.809 killing polar bears. They're still, you know, 01:05:56.909 --> 01:05:59.150 you can go up and kill a, you have to go through 01:05:59.150 --> 01:06:02.250 a process, but you can kill a polar bear when 01:06:02.250 --> 01:06:08.530 we know that their ecosystem is going. Are they 01:06:08.530 --> 01:06:11.510 going to survive or not? We don't know, but we're 01:06:11.510 --> 01:06:13.730 not giving them the best chance possible to try 01:06:13.730 --> 01:06:15.809 and survive through that because we think it's 01:06:15.809 --> 01:06:19.000 okay to take them and use their pelts. So I sort 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.559 of think we have not in any way engaged in the 01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:26.840 reality of global warming, changes to the ecosystem, 01:06:27.179 --> 01:06:31.639 impacts on animals that we don't like and animals 01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:35.659 that we do like. I don't know. I just think human 01:06:35.659 --> 01:06:41.039 beings have to wake up and begin to be more inclusive 01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:45.340 and sensitive to broader species in the world. 01:06:46.599 --> 01:06:50.619 Yes. right on. And I guess to close this conversation 01:06:50.619 --> 01:06:56.280 about wildlife, there are parks, national parks 01:06:56.280 --> 01:07:02.760 in Canada that are protected. But nowadays, you 01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:06.219 know, I'm wondering if that protection is really 01:07:06.219 --> 01:07:10.260 that established? Like, what does it mean that 01:07:10.260 --> 01:07:15.000 this piece of land is protected? And am I right 01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:18.710 to be to be skeptical and I guess I could, you 01:07:18.710 --> 01:07:23.110 know, tell the story of the place where I live. 01:07:23.750 --> 01:07:30.409 There was a wetland, you know, location and it 01:07:30.409 --> 01:07:33.349 was understood that this place was protected, 01:07:34.309 --> 01:07:37.710 but yet, you know, there was a vote with the 01:07:37.710 --> 01:07:42.449 city council and they changed the status of that 01:07:42.449 --> 01:07:46.719 land. And now they're building apartment complex 01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:51.559 on on on those wetlands. And so is it really 01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:57.420 protected? And federally, it's legislatively 01:07:57.420 --> 01:08:03.639 protected. That doesn't mean that, you know, 01:08:03.699 --> 01:08:06.199 it's how you interpret, interpret the protection. 01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:10.679 But generally speaking, the the parks that have 01:08:10.679 --> 01:08:15.900 been the parks and Reserves are generally protected 01:08:15.900 --> 01:08:19.000 from things like development, encroachment, all 01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:21.300 that sort of stuff. There was a discussion, in 01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:24.600 fact, in Jasper, around Jasper National Park, 01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:29.760 there was a possible ask of the federal government, 01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:33.279 could they build in the park and replace the 01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:36.340 houses that had been burnt down in the fire that 01:08:36.340 --> 01:08:39.239 went through last year? And as far as I can tell 01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:42.310 so far, the answer has been no. and it won't 01:08:42.310 --> 01:08:46.189 happen but you look at you look at those two 01:08:46.189 --> 01:08:50.689 major parks in Alberta and they have a golf course 01:08:50.689 --> 01:08:54.489 and they have hotels and they have this and I 01:08:54.489 --> 01:08:57.050 think they were probably taken over early on 01:08:57.050 --> 01:09:01.010 in the whole process trying to protect from further 01:09:01.010 --> 01:09:05.090 development which they've been able to do but 01:09:05.090 --> 01:09:09.779 you know I think they're probably protected where 01:09:09.779 --> 01:09:12.520 it isn't protected. Wetlands are a real issue 01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:15.699 across the country. And they're the lifeblood 01:09:15.699 --> 01:09:21.500 of our ecosystems. And they, of course, house 01:09:21.500 --> 01:09:25.100 many, many, many wild animals, wild insects, 01:09:26.100 --> 01:09:29.880 wild everything. And they're critically important 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:34.399 to the health of the ecosystem. And yet they 01:09:34.399 --> 01:09:38.680 are considered to be Swamps is what we used to 01:09:38.680 --> 01:09:43.960 call them and to be drained and to and to be 01:09:43.960 --> 01:09:46.800 used for development and you know, that's happening 01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:51.500 all across the country. There's a wonderful person 01:09:51.500 --> 01:09:54.340 in Alberta whose name just escapes me at the 01:09:54.340 --> 01:09:56.880 moment. I'll think about it, but she have of 01:09:56.880 --> 01:10:00.539 course advocates for wetlands and advocates for 01:10:00.539 --> 01:10:03.819 not trapping beaver to allow the wetlands to 01:10:03.819 --> 01:10:08.989 occur and And so, you know, it's just an indication 01:10:08.989 --> 01:10:13.430 about how critical it is and how often communities 01:10:13.430 --> 01:10:16.909 ask for a redefinement of what a wetland is so 01:10:16.909 --> 01:10:22.829 that they can develop it. And I have to say, 01:10:24.130 --> 01:10:26.369 many of the environmentalists are on the right 01:10:26.369 --> 01:10:29.890 side of that issue and have fought hard to protect 01:10:29.890 --> 01:10:35.850 wetlands. We worked on one with the city of Montreal 01:10:35.850 --> 01:10:41.750 a while ago, and the city bought the land, ultimately, 01:10:42.170 --> 01:10:43.970 and so that part of the wetland is protected, 01:10:43.989 --> 01:10:46.909 but I think there's development occurring in 01:10:46.909 --> 01:10:49.550 other parts of it, so who knows how that will 01:10:49.550 --> 01:10:54.550 ultimately end, but I think the more parks we 01:10:54.550 --> 01:10:58.609 get, the more land we get under control of the 01:10:58.609 --> 01:11:02.649 federal government, And we'll see what Carney 01:11:02.649 --> 01:11:05.829 does, but I think the more land will actually 01:11:05.829 --> 01:11:10.010 have protected. Not not perfectly, but better 01:11:10.010 --> 01:11:15.170 than just sitting there. So Liz, we mentioned 01:11:15.170 --> 01:11:19.289 how your work is important and this is something 01:11:19.289 --> 01:11:23.149 I, you know, since the first time I met you and 01:11:23.149 --> 01:11:28.069 we had the conversation, my my thinking of animal 01:11:28.069 --> 01:11:33.260 advocacy. and how to best help animals and stop 01:11:33.260 --> 01:11:38.060 this madness has evolved. And now I'm on the 01:11:38.060 --> 01:11:40.819 same page as you are about the political stuff. 01:11:44.399 --> 01:11:49.539 And, and so, you know, what can we do to support 01:11:49.539 --> 01:11:52.960 your efforts? What can we do to support the efforts 01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:59.529 of the animal protection party? Yeah. I guess 01:11:59.529 --> 01:12:05.630 there's a couple of things. I would, once the 01:12:05.630 --> 01:12:08.149 election, let's say the election, okay, so we'll 01:12:08.149 --> 01:12:10.489 deal with the election first. I think you should 01:12:10.489 --> 01:12:14.569 go and meet with the candidates in your area 01:12:14.569 --> 01:12:17.609 and introduce yourself and say you're gonna be 01:12:17.609 --> 01:12:19.689 back. You wanna talk to them about animal issues 01:12:19.689 --> 01:12:23.989 and you're hoping that as it goes along that 01:12:23.989 --> 01:12:26.029 they would be willing to actually introduce. 01:12:26.279 --> 01:12:28.460 a private members bill or actually if they're 01:12:28.460 --> 01:12:30.079 in the government get the government to introduce 01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:33.279 a bill on whatever issue you want to talk about. 01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:37.520 If you want a little bit more support in that 01:12:37.520 --> 01:12:40.340 area you might want to go out and do a bit of 01:12:40.340 --> 01:12:44.260 canvassing for a candidate of your choice. Even 01:12:44.260 --> 01:12:46.399 if they're not the animal protection party, which 01:12:46.399 --> 01:12:47.800 they won't be because we're not bringing that 01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:50.699 many candidates, it's really important to get 01:12:50.699 --> 01:12:54.869 a feel for how politics works. what's the wheeling 01:12:54.869 --> 01:12:57.649 and dealing behind the scenes, who owes what 01:12:57.649 --> 01:13:01.010 who to whom, all that sort of stuff is important 01:13:01.010 --> 01:13:04.430 and making that personal connection with the 01:13:04.430 --> 01:13:06.590 person who gets elected in your area so that 01:13:06.590 --> 01:13:09.170 when something comes up you can phone that person 01:13:09.170 --> 01:13:12.409 up get a meeting with them and talk to them about 01:13:12.409 --> 01:13:14.149 your concerns about whatever the government's 01:13:14.149 --> 01:13:16.569 doing or your support about whatever the government's 01:13:16.569 --> 01:13:22.600 doing. So that I would It's four years, it'll 01:13:22.600 --> 01:13:24.640 be four, if we get a majority government, it'll 01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:27.640 be four years till the next election. I would 01:13:27.640 --> 01:13:31.539 urge people who are vegetarian and vegan across 01:13:31.539 --> 01:13:34.520 the country to begin to do a little bit of research 01:13:34.520 --> 01:13:40.979 into how to become a candidate. It's our goal 01:13:40.979 --> 01:13:44.520 to run more candidates. We've been up to about 01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:49.569 20 at one time. um but uh you know it was quick 01:13:49.569 --> 01:13:51.909 this time so it was we were unable to get to 01:13:51.909 --> 01:13:55.949 that number but if we have time to plan um to 01:13:55.949 --> 01:13:58.989 consider running for the party it's a fantastic 01:13:58.989 --> 01:14:01.069 way you get go to all candidates meetings you 01:14:01.069 --> 01:14:03.789 get to talk about your issue nobody else at the 01:14:03.789 --> 01:14:05.350 count candidates meeting is going to talk about 01:14:05.350 --> 01:14:10.369 your issue but you can i have one on um mid -april 01:14:10.369 --> 01:14:13.779 uh that i'm going to go to and you know I'm going 01:14:13.779 --> 01:14:16.680 to talk about all the animal issues and you know 01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:18.699 because the liberals in a way did a pretty good 01:14:18.699 --> 01:14:22.699 job low -hanging fruit but you know they did 01:14:22.699 --> 01:14:26.739 it they got the cosmetic bill through and they 01:14:26.739 --> 01:14:29.680 did and some of the pesticide stuff we got through 01:14:29.680 --> 01:14:34.539 so they did some really good stuff but it wasn't 01:14:34.539 --> 01:14:37.439 clearly enough. It's obviously, you know, when 01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:39.380 you start digging into animal issues, it's a 01:14:39.380 --> 01:14:43.420 tsunami of issues to try and deal with. So looking 01:14:43.420 --> 01:14:48.180 at the issues that are most important and moving 01:14:48.180 --> 01:14:51.699 those forward, you know, it's harder to talk 01:14:51.699 --> 01:14:53.819 about the animal agriculture because of the size 01:14:53.819 --> 01:14:58.420 of the industry, but there are alternative groups 01:14:58.420 --> 01:15:02.500 out there. There are vegan environmental agriculture 01:15:02.500 --> 01:15:07.520 people. And so we can begin to talk about how 01:15:07.520 --> 01:15:11.859 to, as a party and as a candidate, how to shift 01:15:11.859 --> 01:15:16.100 from the very damaging and cruel animal agriculture 01:15:16.100 --> 01:15:22.659 to a vegan agriculture. And it's much kinder 01:15:22.659 --> 01:15:25.420 to the land. You don't have to use as many pesticides 01:15:25.420 --> 01:15:29.689 and all that sort of stuff. the party and the 01:15:29.689 --> 01:15:32.810 platform, which I think is pretty fulsome, to 01:15:32.810 --> 01:15:36.029 advocate the issues that you are interested in. 01:15:36.029 --> 01:15:38.689 And if you would be interested in being a candidate 01:15:38.689 --> 01:15:42.909 for years coming, maybe do some research on on 01:15:42.909 --> 01:15:45.569 how to do that. A lot of people find it pretty 01:15:45.569 --> 01:15:48.890 intimidating. And then it is because you got 01:15:48.890 --> 01:15:50.869 to get up and talk to an audience that isn't 01:15:50.869 --> 01:15:54.789 particularly sympathetic about your issues. But 01:15:54.789 --> 01:15:58.180 it's a really, really, really good test. about 01:15:58.180 --> 01:16:01.159 how well you are able to put your issues forward 01:16:01.159 --> 01:16:04.300 and whether you can convince people in the audience 01:16:04.300 --> 01:16:08.899 that you have a case. Let me ask you a question. 01:16:09.159 --> 01:16:12.939 I actually wrote an article about social media 01:16:12.939 --> 01:16:19.140 and how social media should not become the centerpiece 01:16:19.140 --> 01:16:25.590 or the focus of animal, you know, animal rights 01:16:25.590 --> 01:16:30.350 activists. And, you know, I actually took as 01:16:30.350 --> 01:16:33.329 an example, the Animal Protection Party of Canada, 01:16:34.229 --> 01:16:37.989 you have, you know, hundreds of followers on 01:16:37.989 --> 01:16:42.890 social media, yet it is difficult to transform 01:16:42.890 --> 01:16:48.609 that and to convert that into candidates in the 01:16:48.609 --> 01:16:54.270 field. So maybe I would love to hear your thoughts 01:16:54.270 --> 01:16:59.869 on that. Why is it so difficult to get people 01:16:59.869 --> 01:17:05.050 who are sympathizers to animal protection organizations 01:17:05.050 --> 01:17:09.649 to do something out of the social media world? 01:17:12.189 --> 01:17:19.100 I think it's become a world where you don't have 01:17:19.100 --> 01:17:23.720 to do a whole lot of work. And you see something, 01:17:23.899 --> 01:17:27.020 you post it, and you get a bunch of people commenting 01:17:27.020 --> 01:17:30.180 on it, and you comment back. And you know, you 01:17:30.180 --> 01:17:33.220 can, it's very passive, you can do it. Doesn't 01:17:33.220 --> 01:17:38.520 take a whole lot of work or thinking. And that's 01:17:38.520 --> 01:17:40.920 why I think it's really difficult for people 01:17:40.920 --> 01:17:46.600 to understand, how do you get legislation changed? 01:17:47.369 --> 01:17:50.390 from the outside and from the inside. How do 01:17:50.390 --> 01:17:54.010 you do it? What is the mechanism by which you 01:17:54.010 --> 01:17:57.529 lobby? Who do you talk to? How often do you go 01:17:57.529 --> 01:17:59.750 there? How much do you pressure those people? 01:18:00.229 --> 01:18:02.869 What kind of information do you put in front 01:18:02.869 --> 01:18:05.390 of them? If you're going to promote an issue, 01:18:05.689 --> 01:18:07.630 you better have it to a politician, you better 01:18:07.630 --> 01:18:10.649 have it well researched because if you present 01:18:10.649 --> 01:18:13.029 them with something like, I don't like what somebody's 01:18:13.029 --> 01:18:16.979 doing, that's not going to cut it and you will 01:18:16.979 --> 01:18:21.180 probably be ignored and you'll wonder why. And 01:18:21.180 --> 01:18:24.119 you need to make, I think you need to make, and 01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:26.180 this may be difficult for people, but I think 01:18:26.180 --> 01:18:30.899 you need to make a really deep commitment to, 01:18:30.899 --> 01:18:33.220 if you're interested in an issue, to doing the 01:18:33.220 --> 01:18:36.539 proper research, to getting all of the scientific 01:18:36.539 --> 01:18:39.920 information lined up, to do all that kind of 01:18:39.920 --> 01:18:43.180 work so that when you go, if you decide to go, 01:18:43.229 --> 01:18:47.270 to your member of parliament or member of provincial 01:18:47.270 --> 01:18:52.529 parliament to present your case that you have 01:18:52.529 --> 01:18:56.310 it well prepared and you're you know skilled 01:18:56.310 --> 01:18:59.170 and the person can see that you know what you're 01:18:59.170 --> 01:19:04.189 talking about and that takes a lot of work and 01:19:04.189 --> 01:19:08.000 often people don't either want to do that feel 01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:10.560 inadequate for doing it. I don't quite know. 01:19:11.039 --> 01:19:13.659 But I do know we've had we have a couple of candidates 01:19:13.659 --> 01:19:16.119 that have just jumped in. They've just decided 01:19:16.119 --> 01:19:19.640 I'm going to do it. One in Newfoundland and one 01:19:19.640 --> 01:19:23.859 out in BC. And it's a hard you know, you can 01:19:23.859 --> 01:19:27.060 imagine being an animal rights person in Newfoundland 01:19:27.060 --> 01:19:29.279 where they have the seal hunt, how difficult 01:19:29.279 --> 01:19:34.359 that is. And, and yet, you know, he's going to 01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:37.560 do it. and so I think you just and and he's and 01:19:37.560 --> 01:19:39.420 they're learning they're both learning really 01:19:39.420 --> 01:19:42.199 fast you know what arguments to put forward what 01:19:42.199 --> 01:19:45.439 not all that sort of stuff and of course myself 01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:47.560 and my colleague Barry Mackay are there to help 01:19:47.560 --> 01:19:52.020 them um but uh it means that these are people 01:19:52.020 --> 01:19:55.579 who are willing to actually do the work and I 01:19:55.579 --> 01:19:57.920 think that makes all the difference in the world 01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:01.229 and we need more people like that And I don't 01:20:01.229 --> 01:20:03.489 know what it takes to get people out of Facebook 01:20:03.489 --> 01:20:07.189 and TikTok and Snapchat and whoever else they're 01:20:07.189 --> 01:20:12.029 on to actually begin to do the kind of work that 01:20:12.029 --> 01:20:14.170 needs to be done to change the legislation because 01:20:14.170 --> 01:20:17.170 that's where the change is going to happen. What 01:20:17.170 --> 01:20:22.210 about donations? How much can we give? I think 01:20:22.210 --> 01:20:27.890 there is a ceiling to political donations. Yeah, 01:20:27.970 --> 01:20:31.810 there's a ceiling. Yeah. It was, it's like $1 01:20:31.810 --> 01:20:36.810 ,725 to $1 ,750. I'm just not quite sure it changes. 01:20:37.109 --> 01:20:42.130 It goes up by $25 every year. So you could become 01:20:42.130 --> 01:20:44.770 a month, people could become a monthly donor 01:20:44.770 --> 01:20:49.449 and make it the $1 ,700 and whatever it is over 01:20:49.449 --> 01:20:52.270 a 12 month period. So it isn't onerous. Some 01:20:52.270 --> 01:20:54.869 people just write us a check for the entire amount. 01:20:55.689 --> 01:20:58.689 You get a very, just for people who need tax 01:20:58.689 --> 01:21:03.550 receipts, you get an extremely good receipt from 01:21:03.550 --> 01:21:08.310 Elections Canada for donating to our party. And 01:21:08.310 --> 01:21:11.829 the sweet spot, if you give $400, you get $325 01:21:11.829 --> 01:21:15.029 or $350 back. I can't remember, but most of the 01:21:15.029 --> 01:21:18.229 donation you get back directly off your income 01:21:18.229 --> 01:21:23.439 tax. So it's a really good deal. Yeah, anybody 01:21:23.439 --> 01:21:25.279 who wants to join the Animal Protection Party, 01:21:25.699 --> 01:21:28.279 please come forward. We'd love to talk to you. 01:21:28.460 --> 01:21:30.460 I'll probably call you personally if you give 01:21:30.460 --> 01:21:35.619 a donation and it would be fantastic. And do 01:21:35.619 --> 01:21:38.539 we have to be Canadian to make a donation? You 01:21:38.539 --> 01:21:42.760 have to be a Canadian citizen or there's one 01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:46.800 other landed immigrant or something. I think 01:21:46.800 --> 01:21:51.899 you have to be a Canadian citizen to to vote. 01:21:52.060 --> 01:21:54.399 I don't think you have to be a Canadian citizen 01:21:54.399 --> 01:22:00.159 to join the party. No. So, Liz, I think we covered 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:06.680 well the topics at hand, the issues that needed 01:22:06.680 --> 01:22:11.560 to be addressed surrounding this election and 01:22:11.560 --> 01:22:16.060 the state of animal rights in Canada. Did you 01:22:16.060 --> 01:22:19.039 want to add something before we stop the recording? 01:22:20.170 --> 01:22:23.409 Yeah, I would just say to everybody who's listening 01:22:23.409 --> 01:22:28.850 I understand how hard it is to do this work to 01:22:28.850 --> 01:22:32.970 look at the images and to not get discouraged 01:22:32.970 --> 01:22:38.729 and not feel angry and not You know feel unable 01:22:38.729 --> 01:22:42.130 to do anything and I just ask you to sit back 01:22:42.130 --> 01:22:45.970 a little bit and Reconsider the animals that 01:22:45.970 --> 01:22:49.670 you watched had to undergo that kind of cruelty 01:22:50.029 --> 01:22:57.270 But if they encouraged you to become part of 01:22:57.270 --> 01:23:00.630 the movement and to fight hard for animal rights, 01:23:01.130 --> 01:23:04.130 then they didn't die in vain and I would urge 01:23:04.130 --> 01:23:08.369 you to sit back, reconsider and join the movement 01:23:08.369 --> 01:23:11.810 and join the party. Whichever you want to do 01:23:11.810 --> 01:23:14.630 and fight for the animals because they sure need 01:23:14.630 --> 01:23:18.739 our help. Thank you everyone for listening. I 01:23:18.739 --> 01:23:21.300 kindly invite you to share this podcast with 01:23:21.300 --> 01:23:24.300 the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people 01:23:24.300 --> 01:23:27.939 to take action. Again, thank you so much for 01:23:27.939 --> 01:23:31.000 caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a 01:23:31.000 --> 01:23:31.739 new episode.