WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:05.799 Bill Rogers, Reagan Russell, William Sweet, Fernando 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:11.320 Pereira, Bartolomé Morais de Silva, Mike Hill, 00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:16.839 Tom Warby, Jill Phipps, Carol Van Nopen, David 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:21.899 Gypsy -Jane, Beth O 'Brien, Robert Naya Bryan, 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:27.269 Barry Horn. Those are the names of the activists 00:00:27.269 --> 00:00:30.969 featured in the Fallen Warriors section of the 00:00:30.969 --> 00:00:34.289 North American Animal Liberation Press Office 00:00:34.289 --> 00:00:38.270 website. In other words, those are activists 00:00:38.270 --> 00:00:42.109 who have paid the ultimate price, their life, 00:00:42.689 --> 00:00:46.189 for standing up to animal abuse and exploitation. 00:00:47.609 --> 00:00:50.609 My name is Ryan. You are listening to The Vegan 00:00:50.609 --> 00:00:54.859 Report. And in today's episode, I invited Dr. 00:00:55.060 --> 00:00:58.920 Jerry Vlasak, a press officer and longtime animal 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:03.140 rights activist, to remember those heroes and 00:01:03.140 --> 00:01:08.019 reflect upon their sacrifice and legacy. We also 00:01:08.019 --> 00:01:11.219 remember those who have sacrificed their freedom 00:01:11.219 --> 00:01:16.140 for the animal cause, most notably Marius Mason 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:20.299 and Maxime Ploucoy, who are still serving their 00:01:20.299 --> 00:01:24.780 sentence. in prison as i was telling you before 00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:28.819 we started the recording i'm really glad to see 00:01:28.819 --> 00:01:33.219 you back on the vegan report we recorded an episode 00:01:33.219 --> 00:01:37.340 about a year more than that i think more than 00:01:37.340 --> 00:01:41.180 a year ago And it was an amazing conversation. 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.219 I will leave a link to that conversation in the 00:01:44.219 --> 00:01:47.640 episode notes and highly recommend people to 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:52.359 go and listen to that past episode. But yeah, 00:01:52.500 --> 00:01:55.400 welcome back, Jerry. Great to be back. Glad to 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:59.140 be here. Wonderful. So today, I wanted to discuss 00:01:59.140 --> 00:02:04.180 with you the price that sometimes comes with 00:02:04.180 --> 00:02:09.539 doing activism for animals. And let me start 00:02:09.539 --> 00:02:13.759 the conversation with this question. How likely 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:18.860 is it to pay that price, whether to be victimized 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:24.259 for standing up for animals, whether we're talking 00:02:24.259 --> 00:02:30.680 about imprisonment or censorship, any of that. 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.159 Let's talk about the spectrum of punishments 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:40.000 out there. reserved for activists, and also how 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.479 likely it is to fall victim to debt to those 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.039 forms of punishments. Well, first of all, the 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:49.400 vast majority of people who help animals don't 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.300 have to worry about any sort of a penalty in 00:02:52.300 --> 00:02:55.479 regards to either being arrested or even worse 00:02:55.479 --> 00:03:00.250 in prison for a significant amount of time. It's 00:03:00.250 --> 00:03:02.590 there have been, you know, obviously there are 00:03:02.590 --> 00:03:05.590 thousands and thousands of demonstrations and 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:09.250 other kinds of nonviolent action going on all 00:03:09.250 --> 00:03:12.610 the time on behalf of animals. And it's very, 00:03:12.650 --> 00:03:15.250 very rare that anybody even gets arrested. And 00:03:15.250 --> 00:03:16.969 most of those people that get arrested or are 00:03:16.969 --> 00:03:19.009 just basically processed and released within 00:03:19.009 --> 00:03:22.150 a few hours. And most of those times the charges 00:03:22.150 --> 00:03:26.340 are dropped and nothing ever happens. At any 00:03:26.340 --> 00:03:29.159 given moment, there's a very, very small number 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.099 of people that are imprisoned for longer periods 00:03:32.099 --> 00:03:34.460 of time. I think at the current moment, there's 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:37.520 only a couple of people that are in prison despite, 00:03:37.699 --> 00:03:40.120 and those are people that broke the law, purposely 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:43.139 broke the law to help animals, which as the North 00:03:43.139 --> 00:03:46.039 American Animal Liberation Press Office, we advocate 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:48.840 for that. We report on it. We tell you how to 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:52.599 do it. We encourage you to do it because we personally 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.900 think that breaking a system of unjust laws to 00:03:56.900 --> 00:03:59.900 help animals is a moral obligation for the most 00:03:59.900 --> 00:04:02.039 part. Not everyone can do it. Not everyone knows 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.580 how or is in the position to do it, but we highly 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:07.740 encourage it. And of the people that do that, 00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:12.280 and there are on average about 200 episodes every 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:14.439 year that we know of where people break the law 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:16.759 to help animals and probably at least that many 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:18.560 more that we don't know about because they never 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:22.579 report it. uh so over the year we've been we've 00:04:22.579 --> 00:04:24.519 been reporting on this for more than 20 years 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.160 there have been thousands and thousands of actions 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:29.319 where people have purposely broke the law to 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:32.720 help animals and i can almost count on both hands 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:34.759 a number of times people have been arrested and 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.759 spent any kind of time in prison for that so 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:41.560 it's very very very unlikely Among the people 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:43.819 that do get arrested, most of those people are 00:04:43.819 --> 00:04:47.079 people at demonstrations where things get kind 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:49.420 of rowdy, or perhaps the police just decide to 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:52.939 arrest people arbitrarily. And as I said before, 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:55.259 most of those people spend a very, very short 00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:57.300 amount of time in the legal system, and most 00:04:57.300 --> 00:05:00.180 of them walk away with no charges at the end 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:04.339 of the day. So all of that said, it's extremely 00:05:04.339 --> 00:05:06.779 unlikely and it should really not be a major 00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:08.759 consideration when people are thinking about 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:11.379 getting active and becoming an activist on behalf 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:15.199 of animals. I think you also mentioned that there 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:16.759 have been people that have paid the ultimate 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.199 price, people who have been killed trying to 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:22.920 help animals. And I find it kind of ironic because 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:25.740 animal rights activists are portrayed in the 00:05:25.740 --> 00:05:28.040 media sometimes and certainly by our opposition 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:31.879 as being these violent people who are out to 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.579 hurt people in some form or fashion. Whereas 00:05:34.579 --> 00:05:37.740 in reality, no animal rights activists are ever 00:05:37.740 --> 00:05:42.250 seriously armed an animal abuser, even though 00:05:42.250 --> 00:05:44.649 some of them may deserve it. On the other hand, 00:05:44.730 --> 00:05:46.709 there have been a number of animal rights activists 00:05:46.709 --> 00:05:50.290 that have lost their lives, been killed by animal 00:05:50.290 --> 00:05:53.980 abusers. Most of the time uh are not all most 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:55.360 of the time but at least some of the times these 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:57.439 have been accidents a couple of people have been 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.300 run over by trucks carrying animals to slaughter 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:04.319 houses most recently was an activist in canada 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.180 actually uh that i'm sure you know about reagan 00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:10.560 russell that was struck by a truck she was offering 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.279 water to pigs as they were being taken to slaughter 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.819 so there have been a few people that have paid 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:20.389 the ultimate price but again over 20 years that 00:06:20.389 --> 00:06:23.029 we've been reporting and at least another 20 00:06:23.029 --> 00:06:25.230 years before that where actions have been going 00:06:25.230 --> 00:06:29.110 on, there have been very, very few people that 00:06:29.110 --> 00:06:32.089 have had to pay that price. So overall, I think 00:06:32.089 --> 00:06:35.389 being an animal activist is a perfectly safe 00:06:35.389 --> 00:06:38.329 thing to do as opposed to what happens if we 00:06:38.329 --> 00:06:41.089 don't become activists. And that is to sit idly 00:06:41.089 --> 00:06:44.470 by while billions of animals are tortured and 00:06:44.470 --> 00:06:48.149 killed in a system that legally says that's okay. 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:53.259 I would be remiss to have this conversation without 00:06:53.259 --> 00:06:59.019 mentioning what happened to Paul Watson in Denmark, 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:07.139 how he was detained. And it reminded me of what 00:07:07.139 --> 00:07:11.660 you just mentioned, that irony of being punished 00:07:11.660 --> 00:07:16.759 and being the victim of some form of state violence, 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.500 because you are standing up for the lives of 00:07:21.500 --> 00:07:26.240 innocent creatures. And that's the case of Paul 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:31.259 Watson, you know, who can blame him for having 00:07:31.259 --> 00:07:35.519 victimized anyone, for having taken the life 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:39.699 of someone for having committed some outrageous 00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:45.379 crime, yet he was facing the potential of spending 00:07:45.379 --> 00:07:50.560 the rest of his life. in prison, something like 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:55.579 a capital sentence in Japanese jails. What do 00:07:55.579 --> 00:08:01.199 you make of that severity that they displayed 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.600 towards him? Do you think they wanted to make 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.220 him an example? Yeah, that brings up a good point. 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.699 Paul Watson, who's a friend of mine, by the way, 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.680 was arrested and was threatened with a very long 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:18.579 detention. And that goes to prove that the more 00:08:18.579 --> 00:08:21.180 effective you are, the harder they will come 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:25.560 after you. So as Andrew Lindsay, who's a theologian 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.199 from the UK, said once at a conference that I 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.800 attended, you only feel the change when you begin 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.860 to move. And I think when people are, the more 00:08:35.860 --> 00:08:38.779 effective we are as activists, and I think Paul 00:08:38.779 --> 00:08:42.519 Watson is right near the top there on the effectiveness 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:45.700 that any activist could ever be, I think the 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:49.879 more we threaten the profits of capitalists who 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.360 make their living and their riches off of animal 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.759 exploitation, the more we threaten that. In his 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:59.919 case, mainly the people that were killing whales 00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:05.419 in the Antarctic Ocean. from Japan was that Japan 00:09:05.419 --> 00:09:07.460 issued an international arrest warrant for him 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:08.940 and probably would have locked him up for the 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:10.940 rest of his life if they were given the chance. 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.080 He was an effective activist. He was exposing 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.539 these atrocities to the world and making Japan 00:09:17.539 --> 00:09:21.070 look bad. So the more effective we are, the more 00:09:21.070 --> 00:09:22.750 likely they are to come after us and the more 00:09:22.750 --> 00:09:25.350 likely they are to come after us with a heavy 00:09:25.350 --> 00:09:28.809 handed fashion. So I think that's a good representation. 00:09:28.990 --> 00:09:31.610 But on the other hand, the choice is to not be 00:09:31.610 --> 00:09:37.970 effective, to perhaps stand miles away from a 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:41.210 place of animal abuse with a sign twice a week 00:09:41.210 --> 00:09:46.570 and not have any real chance of helping those 00:09:46.570 --> 00:09:48.659 animals. I don't think they're likely to come 00:09:48.659 --> 00:09:50.340 after somebody that's doing that. But the more 00:09:50.340 --> 00:09:52.919 effective we are, and whether that's breaking 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:55.519 the law to help animals or like Paul Watson, 00:09:55.860 --> 00:09:59.159 obeying the law and still helping animals, the 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:00.860 more effective you are, the more likely they 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:04.519 are to come knocking at your door. I think he 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:08.259 puts it best when when he says that he was about 00:10:08.259 --> 00:10:13.980 to be punished for kindness, basically. What 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:18.580 do you make of the fact that this very, you know, 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.340 punishment, this detention, this bad thing that 00:10:22.340 --> 00:10:26.279 happened to him actually helped a lot his cause 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:32.100 and was just this tremendous PR campaign for 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:35.600 his foundation, for the good work that he's doing 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:42.330 and way to focus the world on this issue. No, 00:10:42.409 --> 00:10:45.350 I think it's great that we can take these unfortunate 00:10:45.350 --> 00:10:47.850 incidences and turn them around and use them 00:10:47.850 --> 00:10:50.409 in our favor. And so that's what was done in 00:10:50.409 --> 00:10:54.409 his case. I was once arrested for opposing the 00:10:54.409 --> 00:10:59.320 seal hunt. on the eastern coast of Canada. And 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:01.980 when it came time to turn myself in to go to 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:04.240 jail, I made sure that I turned myself in on 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:06.320 the same day they started the hunt the next year. 00:11:06.580 --> 00:11:08.980 And therefore got a lot of publicity about that. 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:11.379 And while I was in jail, I was on a hunger strike 00:11:11.379 --> 00:11:14.500 and got publicity for that. So we turn, we turn 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:17.740 these incidences to our advantage when whenever 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:20.019 we can. And Paul's always been really good at 00:11:20.019 --> 00:11:24.919 that. Yeah, you were detained in you were punished 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:29.940 for your activism. Did the press office ever 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:34.139 face any scrutiny from the authorities? You know, 00:11:34.139 --> 00:11:36.559 when we started the press office back in 2004, 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:38.600 we were pretty sure they were that the authorities 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:39.980 were going to come after us. They were going 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:41.840 to think, well, they must know who those people 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:43.840 are that are breaking law, that they're reporting 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.700 on on these actions. And we're going to come 00:11:46.700 --> 00:11:48.980 and grab them and maybe lock them up or maybe 00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:51.159 take their computers and see what we can find 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:52.759 on their computers. We used to think that all 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.500 the time. So we had all kind of measures in place 00:11:55.500 --> 00:11:57.639 to make sure that, you know, the computers were 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:59.779 backed up every single day and a whole bunch 00:11:59.779 --> 00:12:01.700 of different places and that we used a lot of 00:12:01.700 --> 00:12:03.659 encryption and things like that. but you know 00:12:03.659 --> 00:12:07.340 it hasn't really happened and I think ultimately 00:12:07.340 --> 00:12:09.580 the authorities know who we are and know that 00:12:09.580 --> 00:12:13.620 we're careful to not cross any lines that we 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:15.419 don't know who the people are that are breaking 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:16.820 the law. We don't want to know who the people 00:12:16.820 --> 00:12:19.480 are that are breaking the law so it hasn't been 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:22.799 a real issue. I've had the authorities come to 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:27.360 my home and ransack it one time in 20 years and 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.299 of course they didn't find anything that was 00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:34.659 of any use to them at that time either. So far 00:12:34.659 --> 00:12:37.679 we have not been, that might not mean that they're 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:40.379 piling up a bunch of boxes in a room somewhere 00:12:40.379 --> 00:12:42.419 and they're getting ready to come after us any 00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:45.299 minute now, but I suspect that's not true. Like 00:12:45.299 --> 00:12:46.899 I said, we've been doing this, I've been doing 00:12:46.899 --> 00:12:50.360 this for 20 years and hasn't really been a problem. 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.700 And I think that's the important thing to delineate 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.240 between who we are as a press office, that we 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.700 don't know who it is. the members of the Animal 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:00.820 Liberation Front or other groups out there that 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:02.940 are breaking the law to help animals. We don't 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:04.500 know who they are. We don't know where they're 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:07.100 located. There's no club you can join. People 00:13:07.100 --> 00:13:09.200 that want to join the Animal Liberation Front 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:11.779 just become the Animal Liberation Front. They 00:13:11.779 --> 00:13:14.240 go out there and they abide by a certain minimal 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.059 set of guidelines. And they break the law in 00:13:17.059 --> 00:13:20.019 ways that help animals, whether it's chance to 00:13:20.019 --> 00:13:22.320 inflict economic sabotage against people who 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.720 are profiting from animal abuse or whether it's 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:27.940 actually liberating animals from conditions where 00:13:27.940 --> 00:13:31.059 they're being abused or occasionally even threatening 00:13:31.059 --> 00:13:34.320 people that are abusing animals when no other 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.440 means will work to stop them from doing what 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.940 they're doing. But again, that's not us. We report 00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:42.580 on these actions. We let people know about them. 00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:45.659 We let the mainstream media know why these things 00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:49.029 are happening. and we let other activists know 00:13:49.029 --> 00:13:51.409 why these things are happening. And we encourage 00:13:51.409 --> 00:13:54.009 other activists to do these types of things as 00:13:54.009 --> 00:13:56.110 well. We make no secret about that. I can't say 00:13:56.110 --> 00:13:58.210 that in the UK, for instance, I'd go to jail 00:13:58.210 --> 00:14:01.269 just for saying that I'm encouraging people to 00:14:01.269 --> 00:14:03.309 do this. I want people to break the law. I want 00:14:03.309 --> 00:14:06.610 people to help animals in whatever are the most 00:14:06.610 --> 00:14:09.289 effective ways possible. And I think breaking 00:14:09.289 --> 00:14:12.149 the law is frequently one of the most effective 00:14:12.149 --> 00:14:14.769 ways possible. It's not the only way, and I don't 00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:16.409 think it's the only way, nor should it be the 00:14:16.409 --> 00:14:19.009 only way, but it's one way of helping animals. 00:14:19.370 --> 00:14:22.350 And that's one thing that we just want to make 00:14:22.350 --> 00:14:25.409 sure everybody knows about. You're right about 00:14:25.409 --> 00:14:31.169 the fact that you would not be able to have a 00:14:31.169 --> 00:14:36.029 press office in the UK, nor in Germany or even 00:14:36.029 --> 00:14:40.549 in France, although you highlight actions done 00:14:40.549 --> 00:14:47.450 in those countries. So let's talk about this 00:14:47.450 --> 00:14:51.789 authority. Do you think there is a difference 00:14:51.789 --> 00:14:57.350 of aggression and antagonism with the animal 00:14:57.350 --> 00:15:03.269 cause? in terms of countries. Do you think there 00:15:03.269 --> 00:15:06.309 are countries like Denmark who are much more 00:15:06.309 --> 00:15:09.830 antagonistic towards animal advocates than others? 00:15:10.250 --> 00:15:12.269 Well, I think it's all about just following the 00:15:12.269 --> 00:15:15.230 money and when you look at where people are making 00:15:15.230 --> 00:15:18.389 money off animal exploitation and animal abuse, 00:15:18.549 --> 00:15:20.330 that's where the government's going to stand 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:23.090 up for them and protect that right of theirs 00:15:23.090 --> 00:15:25.529 to make money because that's what capitalist 00:15:25.529 --> 00:15:28.210 societies are all about is making as much money 00:15:28.210 --> 00:15:31.730 as possible and exploiting anybody or any animal 00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:35.230 or any human that you have to exploit to maximize 00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:39.669 your profits. I don't know that Denmark is necessarily 00:15:39.669 --> 00:15:44.110 any worse than anybody else. I think they happened 00:15:44.110 --> 00:15:50.450 to grab Paul Watson on this international arrest 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:53.110 warrant, and they ultimately made the right decision 00:15:53.110 --> 00:15:56.509 and decided not to turn him over. Historically, 00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:58.990 Denmark hasn't really been any worse than anybody 00:15:58.990 --> 00:16:03.289 else. I think places like the UK, where animal 00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:06.940 activism has been the most effective. As I mentioned 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.700 before, the more effective you are, the more 00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:10.799 likely they are to crack down on you. I think 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.980 there are a lot more laws in the UK about protecting 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:18.419 animals and people having to follow a certain 00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:20.259 set of rules. For instance, there used to be 00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:24.500 a publication that was called the ALF Support 00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:26.840 Group and they would mail, they would have this 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:28.620 publication, they'd mail it to people, they'd 00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:32.220 hand it out to people at events. basically talking 00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:34.120 kind of like what we do about people that have 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.240 broken the law and how other people can get active 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.820 and how you could support them by donating money 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:42.620 for their prison funds and things like that. 00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:46.120 And that was outlawed right after I came into 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:49.059 the movement back in the late 90s. It became 00:16:49.059 --> 00:16:53.059 illegal in the UK to promote illegal direct action 00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:56.740 in any form or fashion. So they do have a group 00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:58.620 there called Unoffensive Animal. I'd like to 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:00.759 give a shout out to Unoffensive Animal. They 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.579 do sort of like what we do. They report on animal 00:17:04.579 --> 00:17:07.579 activism and people who break the law to help 00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:10.460 animals. But they have to walk a much finer line 00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:13.700 than we do here. We have much more freedom of 00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:15.720 speech in the United States than they have there. 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:21.309 Most other European countries are... about the 00:17:21.309 --> 00:17:23.750 same. If you look at where people are most effective, 00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:25.930 it tends to be where the laws are the strongest. 00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:28.549 I don't know a whole lot about the laws in places 00:17:28.549 --> 00:17:32.410 like China and Japan. There's been historically 00:17:32.410 --> 00:17:35.349 a lot less reporting on illegal direct action 00:17:35.349 --> 00:17:37.390 in those countries. That doesn't mean it's not 00:17:37.390 --> 00:17:39.730 happening. It just means that it's not being 00:17:39.730 --> 00:17:42.730 reported on succinctly. And so we don't really 00:17:42.730 --> 00:17:45.069 know what's going on there. I'm not aware of 00:17:45.069 --> 00:17:48.779 anybody that's been imprisoned in China. or Japan 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:51.759 recently that for animal activism, not to say 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.240 that it's not there, but not that we know about. 00:17:55.220 --> 00:18:00.759 We all know that famous saying from Gandhi, the 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:05.700 quality of a society is can be assessed by how 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:09.700 they treat animals. Well, I learned a lot about 00:18:09.700 --> 00:18:13.079 my country, Canada and the US and other countries 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:19.190 out there by how they treat ALF. activists and 00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:26.009 animal advocates. It's really a way to test the 00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:30.130 strength of the democracies in those countries. 00:18:30.730 --> 00:18:33.180 Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think so. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.960 Even though the UK has cracked down more vociferously 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.779 on people for breaking the law to help animals, 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:42.980 they also have some of the best animal welfare 00:18:42.980 --> 00:18:45.759 laws in the world. I mean, they don't have veal 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:49.559 crates in the UK. They don't allow circuses with 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:55.440 animals. There's still a lot of animal suffering 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.420 going on in the UK, don't get me wrong, but they 00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:00.730 do have some of the most humane welfare acts, 00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:05.369 if you will, in the UK. So yeah, I mean, you 00:19:05.369 --> 00:19:07.309 have to kind of, you know, weigh that around. 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:11.950 Whereas places like, you know, in Korea, where 00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:15.509 until recently killing dogs for the meat trade 00:19:15.509 --> 00:19:19.390 was still a common occurrence. And again, not 00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:21.410 that killing dogs is any worse than killing cows 00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:25.609 or any other animals. It's just that we identify 00:19:25.609 --> 00:19:28.150 with dogs here in the United States and Canada 00:19:28.150 --> 00:19:33.109 more than than other animals. But yeah, I think, 00:19:33.109 --> 00:19:34.809 you know, different rules in different countries, 00:19:34.849 --> 00:19:38.569 but there's not really a country that's friendly 00:19:38.569 --> 00:19:41.869 to animals. I don't think we see a country where 00:19:41.869 --> 00:19:44.490 animals are afforded any sort of respect that 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:50.789 they deserve anywhere, really. And I should mention 00:19:50.789 --> 00:19:55.950 that the ban on the dog meat trade in South Korea 00:19:55.950 --> 00:20:01.630 will take into effect only in 2027, if I'm not 00:20:01.630 --> 00:20:06.910 mistaken. So it's still happening, but it won't 00:20:06.910 --> 00:20:13.230 happen starting with the year 2027. Okay, so 00:20:13.230 --> 00:20:17.750 let's talk about the extreme of that spectrum 00:20:17.750 --> 00:20:21.589 of punishment, which is, you know, death, ending 00:20:21.589 --> 00:20:25.990 up assassinated or murdered or losing your life 00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:31.269 for your activism and You mentioned Reagan Russell 00:20:31.269 --> 00:20:38.930 the Canadian was struck by truck and While you 00:20:38.930 --> 00:20:42.549 know protesting in a slaughterhouse or at the 00:20:42.549 --> 00:20:46.210 doors of a slaughterhouse I guess you know the 00:20:46.210 --> 00:20:50.420 first time I heard about Reagan Russell The first 00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:53.619 thing that shocked me was how the trucker did 00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:59.660 not get very, was not really punished or get 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:03.839 the full force of the law for what he had done. 00:21:04.779 --> 00:21:07.519 Were you surprised by that? No, I wasn't surprised 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.140 at all. I think he ended up with a $2 ,000 fine 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.619 or something and certainly didn't go to jail. 00:21:14.049 --> 00:21:16.269 despite the fact that he knew there were activists 00:21:16.269 --> 00:21:19.450 there, I'm not going to say he ran over her intentionally, 00:21:19.549 --> 00:21:24.150 but he was definitely negligent in his actions, 00:21:24.309 --> 00:21:29.509 which the court found. But again, the legal system 00:21:29.509 --> 00:21:32.089 is not going to punish people who are part of 00:21:32.089 --> 00:21:35.509 the machinery that allows animal agriculture 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:39.309 and animal exploitation to go on. In other words, 00:21:39.569 --> 00:21:43.279 it would It would set precedent that then people 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.519 would exploit and try to stop more of the suppression 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.099 in different ways. If they were to let, if they 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:51.039 were to make, for instance, this guy go to jail 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.440 for a long period of time, then all of a sudden 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.140 the truck drivers would be a lot more cautious. 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.880 And then we as activists could exploit that into 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:02.400 keeping the trucks from rolling into these power, 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.279 into these slaughterhouses. I think the law, 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.140 we have to remember that the law is there to 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:12.920 protect the profits of the wealthy and those 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:16.019 corporations that make money off the exploitation, 00:22:16.099 --> 00:22:19.420 not just of animals, but of humans as well. And 00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:23.299 I don't think we can expect in the reasonable 00:22:23.299 --> 00:22:26.380 future that any of that's going to change. I'm 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:29.299 not surprised that he got off. I'm surprised 00:22:29.299 --> 00:22:32.180 he even got fined, to be honest. What do you 00:22:32.180 --> 00:22:37.630 make of the activists in South America, in Brazil, 00:22:38.769 --> 00:22:43.930 who oppose the deforestation of the Amazon and 00:22:43.930 --> 00:22:48.970 are assassinated by ranchers, basically, or some 00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:53.970 hitmen hired by the ranchers. They're not really 00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:56.950 animal advocate. But you know, what do you make 00:22:56.950 --> 00:23:00.309 of them? Well, I mean, they're obviously exceedingly 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:02.309 brave people. They know who they're up against, 00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:06.730 and they know the laws that will allow their 00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:11.450 retribution against them. And they do it anyway. 00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:15.269 And I think that's when you start talking about... 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:19.140 real revolutionary ideas when people know that 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:21.259 they're facing the ultimate punishment and are 00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:25.460 willing to step up and do it anyway. In the struggle 00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:27.380 for animal liberation, we really haven't had 00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:30.400 to face that much. There's not many times when, 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.359 as animal activists, we go into a situation knowing 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.819 that there's a reasonably good chance that we 00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:42.740 could be killed or injured. So those people are 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:46.920 a lot braver than we are, I think. I've always 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:51.599 looked at my activism anytime I might have spent 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:56.380 in jail or in other uncomfortable situations. 00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:58.319 I've always just tried to compare that to what 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.839 the animals are undergoing. And the animals have 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:07.640 it so, so, so much worse that it never deters 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.240 me from doing what I want to do. And I don't 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.859 think it should. And again, we're not really 00:24:14.859 --> 00:24:18.980 facing the real threat. I mean, I'm not saying 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:22.259 it's never happened, but it's not a very likely 00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:28.519 condition that one of us, even on the very front 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:32.059 lines, the people that are facing down the police 00:24:32.059 --> 00:24:36.160 at demonstrations or the people liberating animals 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:39.220 in the middle of the night from fur farms or 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.180 the people throwing rocks through the windows 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:45.039 of animal exploiters. I mean, none of us are 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.559 really facing the kind of retribution that these 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:52.559 people are in places like Africa and South America 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.220 where they're literally putting their lives on 00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:58.059 the line every single day when they try to protect 00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:01.099 wild habitat or animals that are being poached 00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:06.740 and killed by poachers. Those in Africa that 00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:09.869 are trying to protect environments and animals 00:25:09.869 --> 00:25:13.109 there that are being poached for their horns 00:25:13.109 --> 00:25:16.250 like rhinoceros and elephants and so forth. I 00:25:16.250 --> 00:25:19.130 mean, those people face death almost on a daily 00:25:19.130 --> 00:25:21.849 basis. And they're incredibly brave. And I think 00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:23.329 we should look up to them. And I think we should 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:26.009 learn from them. And we should say, huh, look 00:25:26.009 --> 00:25:27.750 what they're doing. I mean, it's nothing what 00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:29.890 we're what we're facing here. So why should we 00:25:29.890 --> 00:25:31.930 be afraid? We should go out there and do what 00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:34.690 needs to be done and not worry about it. Exactly. 00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:39.400 And cases like uh, Regan Russell are really rare. 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:44.200 Um, but I, I do still think, you know, it's important 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:48.960 to remember, um, um, those, those people and 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:53.220 what happened to them only, you know, as a minimum 00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:57.420 for at least, you know, highlighting, um, this 00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:02.519 horrific face of, um, uh, the, the exploitation 00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:06.230 of animal of this industry. of exploiting animals. 00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:10.809 Do you agree with that? Absolutely. I think it's 00:26:10.809 --> 00:26:12.589 very important that we remember these activists. 00:26:12.789 --> 00:26:16.509 We have on our website on the prisoners page, 00:26:16.569 --> 00:26:18.950 if you scroll down to the bottom, there's a whole 00:26:18.950 --> 00:26:21.289 section on fallen warriors where we try to remember 00:26:21.289 --> 00:26:24.049 them. And I think every year, the anniversary 00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:27.349 of people like Jill Phipps, who also died under 00:26:27.349 --> 00:26:30.650 the wheels of a slaughter truck, people like 00:26:30.650 --> 00:26:34.460 Barry Horn, who died in prison on a hunger strike 00:26:34.460 --> 00:26:38.180 protesting continued animal exploitation. I think 00:26:38.180 --> 00:26:40.640 I think these people should remember and should 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.019 live on in our in our history and that we should 00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:48.519 remember them when if occasionally we face hardships 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.559 and and so forth in our campaigning for animals, 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.059 if we can remember them, I think it can it can 00:26:55.059 --> 00:26:57.380 give us strength. I know it I know it does me. 00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:02.240 Yes, I feel the same way. I don't want to make 00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:05.720 them into martyrs or something like that. But 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:10.579 it definitely is good, I think, to give meaning 00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:16.200 to their lives and highlight that they did not 00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:21.099 die in vain, that there is in a way a purpose 00:27:21.099 --> 00:27:26.380 to it. Is there one of those fallen warriors 00:27:26.380 --> 00:27:30.980 who really made an impact on you, particularly 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:35.039 so? Well, each and every one of them is important 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.819 to me in some respect. I think Jill Phipps, who 00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:41.000 was killed right around the time I was becoming 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:44.180 active and spending some time in the UK, I was 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:45.980 at some of the demonstrations that were very 00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:48.900 similar to the ones where she was killed. So 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:53.779 it rang a particular bell with me at that point. 00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:58.200 Yeah, Barry Horne, of course, was an inspiration 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:01.009 to a lot of people. There have been hundreds 00:28:01.009 --> 00:28:03.609 of actions to help animals that have been dedicated 00:28:03.609 --> 00:28:06.150 to Berryhorn in the ultimate sacrifice that he 00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:09.869 paid. He was a member of the underground who 00:28:09.869 --> 00:28:12.230 was active for many, many years before eventually 00:28:12.230 --> 00:28:15.349 getting a long prison sentence and went on a 00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:17.390 hunger strike trying to get the government to 00:28:17.390 --> 00:28:23.650 honor their promises to end certain animal exploitation. 00:28:24.610 --> 00:28:28.130 laws and when they reneged on those laws, he 00:28:28.130 --> 00:28:30.109 went on a hunger strike to try to force them 00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:36.009 to obey their word and eventually paid the price. 00:28:36.609 --> 00:28:39.609 And I think you just don't find anybody more 00:28:39.609 --> 00:28:42.509 dedicated than somebody like Barry. So he's been 00:28:42.509 --> 00:28:45.529 an inspiration to me as well to lots of other 00:28:45.529 --> 00:28:49.250 people as well. their celebration, not celebrations, 00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:52.109 but there's acknowledgments every year on the 00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:56.289 anniversary of his death, as well as Jill's and 00:28:56.289 --> 00:29:00.049 Reagan's and others as well. What should we be 00:29:00.049 --> 00:29:07.769 doing to acknowledge those deaths to remember 00:29:07.769 --> 00:29:11.690 those people? Yeah, what actions? I think the 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:13.829 best thing anybody can do to honor these fallen 00:29:13.829 --> 00:29:16.630 warriors and things that people have done is 00:29:16.630 --> 00:29:19.609 to get out there and help animals. And you can 00:29:19.609 --> 00:29:23.529 dedicate your actions to these warriors if you're 00:29:23.529 --> 00:29:27.109 so inclined. But I think if you could ask any 00:29:27.109 --> 00:29:29.559 of them what they would want. they would want 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:31.500 people to be out there helping animals and doing 00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.160 whatever they can to help animals and whether 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.539 that's being a member of the animal liberation 00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:38.960 front or whether that's being a protester or 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.380 whether that's being someone who's working on 00:29:41.380 --> 00:29:45.019 legislation, whatever it takes. I think the best 00:29:45.019 --> 00:29:47.160 way to honor these people who made the ultimate 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:50.220 sacrifice is, and what they would want, I believe 00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:54.299 is that we're out there continuing the struggle. 00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:00.329 And yeah. That's that's the way I look at it. 00:30:00.349 --> 00:30:04.990 Let's now talk about the prisoners and the people 00:30:04.990 --> 00:30:07.589 and let's start with the people who are currently 00:30:07.589 --> 00:30:11.809 in jail. Who are those people and why did they 00:30:11.809 --> 00:30:15.589 end up in jail? Here in the United States, the 00:30:15.589 --> 00:30:18.289 only person I'm aware of currently in prison 00:30:18.289 --> 00:30:22.670 for animal activism is Marius Mason, Marius Mason. 00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:27.339 was a member of the underground helping animals 00:30:27.339 --> 00:30:30.559 and got a very long prison term for some reason, 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:35.619 even though people that were involved in the 00:30:35.619 --> 00:30:38.259 same organization as she was got much lighter 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:45.519 terms. I believe that the original sentence was 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:51.190 21 years in prison. and they're looking at a 00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:52.910 release here in the next couple of years. So 00:30:52.910 --> 00:30:56.130 we're all excited about that. But yeah, Marius 00:30:56.130 --> 00:30:59.230 has had a tough time as a transgender person 00:30:59.230 --> 00:31:01.049 in the legal system here in the United States. 00:31:01.109 --> 00:31:06.390 It hasn't been easy for him. But somebody that 00:31:06.390 --> 00:31:08.730 we should remember, try to write letters to donate 00:31:08.730 --> 00:31:12.089 to their support fund if you can. Again, all 00:31:12.089 --> 00:31:13.869 this information is available on our website 00:31:13.869 --> 00:31:17.569 under the prisoners tab. But yeah, Marius Mason 00:31:17.569 --> 00:31:22.799 is So he wrote to a lot of us. Interesting enough, 00:31:22.819 --> 00:31:25.180 in Ukraine, there's a guy named Maxim Volkoi. 00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.279 I don't know if you heard about him, but he's 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:34.220 a guy who took a busload of people hostage. And 00:31:34.220 --> 00:31:38.299 I use that term in quotation marks because he 00:31:38.299 --> 00:31:40.680 never really was going to hurt anybody. And I 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:42.240 think he made that clear to everybody that was 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:44.259 on the bus. But he actually got his president 00:31:44.259 --> 00:31:49.029 of Ukraine to recommend that everybody in the 00:31:49.029 --> 00:31:53.549 country watch Earthlings. And who knows? And 00:31:53.549 --> 00:31:56.250 the President did. The President went on television 00:31:56.250 --> 00:31:59.089 in Ukraine and asked everybody to watch Earthlings. 00:31:59.789 --> 00:32:02.309 And true to his word, he walked off the bus and 00:32:02.309 --> 00:32:05.289 got, as you can imagine, got a pretty good prison 00:32:05.289 --> 00:32:08.569 term. We've been in touch with him. He has writings. 00:32:09.049 --> 00:32:11.349 He writes essays every once in a while, and we 00:32:11.349 --> 00:32:14.130 publish those. And again, there's ways you can 00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:20.470 support Maxim from our website. as well. It was 00:32:20.470 --> 00:32:22.190 an activist in Sweden that's just recently been 00:32:22.190 --> 00:32:28.109 released. Sundre person was unjustly jailed after 00:32:28.109 --> 00:32:31.970 his animal rights activism and has been released 00:32:31.970 --> 00:32:36.329 from the psychiatric force care unit where he 00:32:36.329 --> 00:32:39.549 was forced to go and imprisoned without really 00:32:39.549 --> 00:32:43.130 any justification and without any idea of how 00:32:43.130 --> 00:32:46.779 long he was going to be there. So, yeah, that's 00:32:46.779 --> 00:32:48.920 pretty much that's most of the people that we 00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:52.640 know about that are currently incarcerated. And 00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.480 can you repeat the part about what we can do 00:32:55.480 --> 00:33:02.599 to support them? Yeah. The thing that makes prisoners 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:05.299 happy when they're in jail and especially for 00:33:05.299 --> 00:33:07.400 any length of time is to hear from the outside, 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:11.099 obviously not discuss their case in particular, 00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:15.880 but tell them about just everything. that's going 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:19.359 on in the world, especially in relationship to 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.200 animals and animal exploitation and how animals 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:25.900 are being helped by those that are still free 00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:29.819 out there. So writing letters to prisoners is 00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:35.079 a really easy, inexpensive, and great way that 00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:38.259 you can support them while they're in jail. They 00:33:38.259 --> 00:33:41.019 love to hear from people. You can make pen pals. 00:33:41.769 --> 00:33:44.210 I've written to them as myself. I think it's 00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:47.450 a great way to get to know them and maybe even 00:33:47.450 --> 00:33:49.230 get to know them when they get out of prison. 00:33:50.190 --> 00:33:51.849 You can also, if you have a few extra dollars 00:33:51.849 --> 00:33:56.029 laying around, contribute to their funds, which 00:33:56.029 --> 00:33:59.269 is used to help out with expenses in prisons, 00:33:59.410 --> 00:34:02.390 such as buying vegan food and other things to 00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:03.869 make their life a little bit more comfortable 00:34:03.869 --> 00:34:05.710 while they're in prison, as well as helping them 00:34:05.710 --> 00:34:08.190 get their foot on the ground when they come out 00:34:08.190 --> 00:34:11.519 of prison. those are the ways that people can 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:13.739 help. And it's like I said, it's easy to do and 00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:16.039 it makes a makes a big difference to people who 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:20.820 have who have been in prison for helping animals. 00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:26.739 And all of that is explaining how to do it in 00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:31.460 the press office website. Yes, again, that's 00:34:31.460 --> 00:34:35.769 animal liberation press office .org. And there's 00:34:35.769 --> 00:34:39.269 a tab on the main page that take you to the prisoners 00:34:39.269 --> 00:34:41.610 and it talks about how to write them letters, 00:34:41.650 --> 00:34:45.030 things you should say and shouldn't say. And 00:34:45.030 --> 00:34:47.630 also they are some of them. They both, I believe, 00:34:47.710 --> 00:34:50.329 have support websites where you can go and learn 00:34:50.329 --> 00:34:53.730 more about their cases and also contribute money 00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:58.070 if you if you'd like to. I love the idea of and, 00:34:58.070 --> 00:35:00.449 you know, there will be links in the description 00:35:00.449 --> 00:35:06.900 again for convenience. And I love the idea of 00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:11.400 writing to prisoners. You know, I've been a long 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:14.460 time activist with Amnesty International, and 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:17.860 that's their big thing, you know, sending letters 00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:22.179 to prisoners who have defended human rights, 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:27.940 not animal rights, in authoritative states, and 00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:31.039 it does make a difference. Yeah, it's a good 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:33.840 thing. It's a very efficient tool of putting 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:38.860 pressure on governments and breaking that solitude 00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:43.119 that they must feel in those prisons. I was just 00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.059 going to say, although I have never been incarcerated 00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:48.500 for a long period of time, I have talked to people 00:35:48.500 --> 00:35:52.260 after they've gotten out of prison that felt 00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:54.179 like, you know, there is a lot of isolation there 00:35:54.179 --> 00:35:56.880 because you're basically surrounded by people 00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:00.260 who are in prison for a lot of reasons, but usually 00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:02.619 it doesn't have anything to do with helping anybody, 00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:05.880 much less helping animals. And so I think there 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:10.079 is a sense of isolation and it really, really 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:14.639 helps to hear from people through letters and 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.119 even phone calls. I've been in touch with prisoners 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:20.340 on phone calls where they were actually allowed 00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:23.820 to call out and I was able to talk to them. But 00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:26.360 I think that helps alleviate some of that isolation 00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:28.960 and let them know that we have their back and 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.500 that we'll make sure that they're taken care 00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:35.820 of. And I think that in turn makes people on 00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:38.960 the outside more willing to engage in riskier 00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:41.840 behavior because they know that if they are caught, 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.320 it's very unlikely that they will be. in the 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:47.420 very, very rare event that they are called, they 00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:49.760 know that they'll have they'll have our support. 00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:55.420 Yes, definitely. And what does it feel, you know, 00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:58.139 and tell me from the discussions you had with 00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:02.019 them to be in those prisons, like you said, surrounded 00:37:02.019 --> 00:37:10.199 by thieves and murderers and drug dealers, when 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.880 all you've done is, you know, speak up and and 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:19.840 do something to save lives. It must be, you know, 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:25.860 just crazy. The crazy feeling to to to be there 00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:30.280 in that place for. Yeah, no doubt. I think. I 00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:35.760 think prisons are way over villainized in TV 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.440 shows and so forth. I don't think prisons are 00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:40.559 as bad as everybody thinks they are. I don't 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.760 think that, you know. people are getting sexually 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.480 abused every day and getting beaten up every 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:48.860 day and stabbed every day. I mean, the people 00:37:48.860 --> 00:37:51.500 I've talked to that have spent a long time in 00:37:51.500 --> 00:37:54.519 here, as in multiple years in prison, have said 00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:57.300 that it's no fun being there. No doubt about 00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:59.960 it. Nobody wants to be there, but it's also a 00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:03.099 daily routine that you fall into. And you are 00:38:03.099 --> 00:38:05.480 looked at differently. I think the other prisoners 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.699 look at you as like, well, he's here for helping 00:38:07.699 --> 00:38:10.920 animals. That doesn't make any sense. I think 00:38:11.980 --> 00:38:14.699 And therefore, I think you are treated differently. 00:38:15.980 --> 00:38:17.420 And the people I've talked to that have spent 00:38:17.420 --> 00:38:21.719 time in prison haven't really come out thinking, 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:26.000 oh, it ruined my life or anything like that. 00:38:26.179 --> 00:38:28.500 In fact, historically, people that have come 00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:31.780 out of prison have been motivated to stay active 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:34.760 and maybe not risk going back to prison, but 00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:36.800 talk about it and talk to other people about 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:40.599 how they can get active and do things. I don't 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.780 think we need to worry about it too much. I think 00:38:44.780 --> 00:38:49.300 you do what you have to do to get along while 00:38:49.300 --> 00:38:51.360 you're in prison and then you get back out and 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.539 get right back to work. Certainly the activists 00:38:53.539 --> 00:38:58.000 in the UK, there were some activists like Keith 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.500 Mann, Mel Broughton, some others that would go 00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:03.179 to prison and they'd come back out and they'd 00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:07.400 get right back to work. They didn't even... think 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:10.239 about, you know, retiring or doing something 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:13.280 safer, they just went right back to work because, 00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:16.039 again, compared to what the animals are going 00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:20.320 through, nothing they do to us can compare at 00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:25.800 all. And I think those of us that can keep the 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:27.960 thought in our heads about what the animals are 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.019 going through, I think that's what motivates 00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:32.679 us to keep doing what we're doing, even if there 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:34.599 is some risk involved. And again, it's not a 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:39.929 big risk, but some risk anyway. Yes. I want to 00:39:39.929 --> 00:39:42.550 echo your point on, on prisons. That's why I 00:39:42.550 --> 00:39:45.030 use the word punishment for animal advocates 00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:49.690 because for me, prisons are a tool of social 00:39:49.690 --> 00:39:55.969 reinsertion for people who, you know, and that's 00:39:55.969 --> 00:39:59.250 my opinion is a bit out there, but who I don't 00:39:59.250 --> 00:40:01.710 think it's their fault that they're there. I 00:40:01.710 --> 00:40:06.219 think there is a that we should look at it from 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:10.739 a determinism point of view. And those persons 00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:16.119 should exist and should serve to help those people 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:22.420 be reinstated, give them the tools to socialize 00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:27.429 better. For animal advocates, it's not necessary. 00:40:27.650 --> 00:40:30.510 They're not there because they don't care about 00:40:30.510 --> 00:40:33.949 people. They're there because they care about 00:40:33.949 --> 00:40:36.150 society. They care about people and they care 00:40:36.150 --> 00:40:40.670 about animals, which is nonsense. And that's 00:40:40.670 --> 00:40:43.949 why, you know, it is a form of punishment to 00:40:43.949 --> 00:40:48.170 put them there. It's not helping anyone. Uh, 00:40:48.289 --> 00:40:51.730 who is scared of those vegan, uh, you know, if, 00:40:51.730 --> 00:40:55.590 if you do a poll, um, with, you know, general, 00:40:55.969 --> 00:40:58.369 the general public who have never heard of veganism 00:40:58.369 --> 00:41:01.329 or the animal cause, I'm pretty sure that most 00:41:01.329 --> 00:41:06.989 of them would be outraged to, um, um, realize 00:41:06.989 --> 00:41:10.409 that some people get in prison for that. Yeah. 00:41:10.409 --> 00:41:11.969 I don't know about Canada, but certainly United 00:41:11.969 --> 00:41:15.070 States there's, uh, just about zero effort in 00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:18.750 our prisons to help people reintegrate into society 00:41:18.750 --> 00:41:22.789 or to overcome any issues they might have with 00:41:22.789 --> 00:41:27.590 anger or drug use or anything else. It's simply 00:41:27.590 --> 00:41:31.130 a way of locking people up and making them miserable 00:41:31.130 --> 00:41:37.190 and the recidivism rate is astronomically high 00:41:37.190 --> 00:41:39.429 so that nobody's going to learn their lesson 00:41:39.429 --> 00:41:42.420 by going to prison. even if they were doing something 00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:46.960 that wasn't particularly useful to society. And 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.079 to your point, yes, people that are in prison 00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:56.800 for helping animals, the absurdity is just terrible. 00:41:57.219 --> 00:42:00.119 But I also think that if we look at what the 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:02.980 animals are doing, life without parole, every 00:42:02.980 --> 00:42:05.460 single one of them, and most of them are on death 00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:08.929 row. And they didn't do anything wrong. Okay, 00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:11.230 like us, they didn't do anything wrong. They're 00:42:11.230 --> 00:42:16.510 just being in prison, tortured and killed, executed 00:42:16.510 --> 00:42:19.110 because of who they are and because somebody 00:42:19.110 --> 00:42:22.949 can make a lot of money by doing it. And the 00:42:22.949 --> 00:42:25.010 prison industrial complex, again, at least in 00:42:25.010 --> 00:42:27.449 the United States is also about making as much 00:42:27.449 --> 00:42:29.630 money as they possibly can off of prisoners. 00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:32.949 And so I don't expect things to change anytime 00:42:32.949 --> 00:42:36.400 soon in that regard. Luckily, like I've tried 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.659 to reiterate several times here, the chances 00:42:38.659 --> 00:42:41.039 of any of us going to prison for any length of 00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:45.699 period of time is very, very, very low. And indeed, 00:42:45.940 --> 00:42:49.320 the people that break laws to help animals are 00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:52.340 even less likely to go to prison or jail than 00:42:52.340 --> 00:42:55.000 the people like Paul Watson who are standing 00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:58.840 up for animals publicly and doing things that 00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:02.440 threaten corporate profits. So I don't think 00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:04.400 we need to do it. worry too much about going 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.019 to prison if you're helping animals. Again, it 00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:09.199 happens so rarely and infrequently. We've been 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:12.420 focusing on it today because that's the topic 00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:17.599 of the discussion. But I think in reality, anybody 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:19.340 that wants to help animals, whether that means 00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:22.480 breaking the law or not, is very unlikely to 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.380 face any sort of prison time. Yes. And I think, 00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:30.940 you know, my audience is made of ethical vegan 00:43:30.940 --> 00:43:34.070 activists. So I think They understand the nuances 00:43:34.070 --> 00:43:39.349 of that and they are receptive to that. They 00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:47.250 do get it. Yeah. And what about then the other 00:43:47.250 --> 00:43:51.170 forms of punishments from states, such as, you 00:43:51.170 --> 00:43:57.550 know, the violation of free speech rights. You 00:43:57.550 --> 00:44:01.889 know, we mentioned the UK and other minor things, 00:44:01.889 --> 00:44:08.539 you know. that are not prison sentences or even 00:44:08.539 --> 00:44:13.659 death sentences. Not really my area of expertise. 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:15.980 And I don't know that I can add a lot to that 00:44:15.980 --> 00:44:19.860 discussion. I think that, again, the more effective 00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:24.260 we become, the more likely we are to suffer impingement 00:44:24.260 --> 00:44:27.920 on our rights in general. I also think obviously 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:31.219 the I don't think anybody has to. knows what 00:44:31.219 --> 00:44:33.280 I'm not guessing what I'm talking about when 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.980 I say that the political climate can also make 00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:39.920 a huge difference in people's right to free speech 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:42.679 with, you know, people being just scooped off 00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.380 the street and deported to other countries for 00:44:45.380 --> 00:44:48.380 further speech without any sort of due process 00:44:48.380 --> 00:44:52.519 of law whatsoever. So yeah, political winds can 00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:54.920 certainly blow a different direction and take 00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:56.980 away some of those rights that we're used to 00:44:56.980 --> 00:45:00.280 doing dealing with. much as they did in the UK, 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:03.159 the animal rights activists in the UK were were 00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:05.619 so effective that a lot of their rights were 00:45:05.619 --> 00:45:08.920 taken away. And I certainly think that's something 00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:12.139 that could be coming down, down the pike here 00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:14.440 in the United States. And I don't know, maybe 00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:18.719 not as much in Canada. But yeah, again, I'm sorry, 00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:20.940 I can't add a whole lot to that discussion. But 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:26.909 yes, I still had to ask, um, Okay, so all of 00:45:26.909 --> 00:45:32.550 those victims of imprisonment or all forms of 00:45:32.550 --> 00:45:36.349 oppression, persecution from governments did 00:45:36.349 --> 00:45:39.409 not stay quiet about their experiences. They 00:45:39.409 --> 00:45:43.789 did put them into writing. And in our last conversation, 00:45:43.789 --> 00:45:48.570 we talked about the book, The ALF Strikes Again, 00:45:50.130 --> 00:45:56.000 which was such an amazing read for me. Um, um, 00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:59.480 I, I recommend it, uh, for me, it has become 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:02.679 a dose of bravery. So whenever I need to, you 00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:06.119 know, my, my daily or weekly dose of bravery 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.940 or monthly, I just opened that book and learn 00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:12.860 about the stories of, of, uh, the activists, 00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:15.820 including Paul Watson. I think he's in chapter 00:46:15.820 --> 00:46:20.019 three of the book or, but yeah. So what other 00:46:20.019 --> 00:46:23.980 books have been written by, um, activists from 00:46:23.980 --> 00:46:28.119 the ALF talking about their actions, but also 00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:31.179 their victimization. Well, The ALF Strikes Back 00:46:31.179 --> 00:46:35.639 is a great book written by a former ALF activist 00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:40.880 and former federal prisoner, Peter Young. He's 00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:42.619 a very good writer and he's done a lot since 00:46:42.619 --> 00:46:45.320 he's been out of prison talking about his experiences 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:47.940 and motivating other people. So yeah, that's 00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:50.679 a great book to read. He's also got a book called 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:54.079 Liberation that's also available, all these available 00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:57.019 on Amazon, by the way, or our website at animal 00:46:57.019 --> 00:47:01.260 liberation press office dot org. One of my personal 00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:04.639 favorites is a fairly small book written by another 00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:08.780 former ALF activist, Rod Coronado, who was active 00:47:08.780 --> 00:47:13.860 and liberating animals from fur farms back in 00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:16.639 the late 90s and then ended up spending a few 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.099 years in prison. But he wrote a book. Actually, 00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:23.449 it was a a series of essays which were compiled 00:47:23.449 --> 00:47:29.030 into a small book called Flaming Arrows. And 00:47:29.030 --> 00:47:31.949 it's a very inspiring book and one that I reread 00:47:31.949 --> 00:47:35.309 every once in a while because it was inspiring 00:47:35.309 --> 00:47:38.389 to me when I was a younger activist and it still 00:47:38.389 --> 00:47:42.309 brings inspiration. So yeah, those are three 00:47:42.309 --> 00:47:46.230 really good books for anybody that wants to get 00:47:46.230 --> 00:47:50.239 inspired. At least if it anything like how it 00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:52.179 affected me, you won't be the same person after 00:47:52.179 --> 00:47:55.119 you read them. And I think he was also featured 00:47:55.119 --> 00:48:02.519 in DLF Strikes Back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Rod's 00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.820 sort of the OG of the animal liberation front 00:48:05.820 --> 00:48:08.619 in the United States. He was a real inspiration 00:48:08.619 --> 00:48:11.559 to a lot of people and is still active. In fact, 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:16.400 he's still working on protection of wild wolves 00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:20.360 up in the New England area. And I've heard from 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:22.619 him quite recently. So he's he's still out there 00:48:22.619 --> 00:48:26.199 all these years later. So there's so few people 00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:29.780 that not only people that have spent time in 00:48:29.780 --> 00:48:31.380 prison, but just people that have been active 00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:35.179 like Paul Watson for their entire lives for decades. 00:48:36.500 --> 00:48:39.460 And it's inspiring to see these people that are 00:48:39.460 --> 00:48:41.719 that are still out there, including Peter and 00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:46.539 Rod and Paul and so many others. It's great. 00:48:47.660 --> 00:48:51.320 And I would love to get him on the show and have 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.659 a discussion with him after reading his book, 00:48:53.659 --> 00:49:00.619 of course. Jerry, this was a wonderful conversation. 00:49:01.659 --> 00:49:05.559 I hope people, like you said, do not feel frightened 00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:10.739 to do activism work because of the imprisonment 00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:15.360 risk or other risks. Like you said many times, 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:22.030 it's minimal. And there's a silver lining to 00:49:22.030 --> 00:49:26.590 all of those bad things. And this movement has 00:49:26.590 --> 00:49:30.889 this magical ability to take some of the worst 00:49:30.889 --> 00:49:35.809 situations and turn them into strengths, which 00:49:35.809 --> 00:49:39.840 is always a beautiful thing to see. Yeah, I wouldn't 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.099 be I would be remiss if I didn't also mention 00:49:42.099 --> 00:49:44.480 a couple of people that are out on bail that 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:46.920 are actually aren't prisoners, but Kara and Celeste 00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.820 are a couple of activists in the New England 00:49:49.820 --> 00:49:52.719 area that were recently arrested and charged 00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:56.320 with trying to liberate animals. And obviously, 00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:58.760 we Nobody has any idea whether they're guilty 00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:00.980 or not. They're in the early stages of the legal 00:50:00.980 --> 00:50:02.820 proceedings, but anybody that wants to support 00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:06.219 them, that's Kara and Celeste. They're trying 00:50:06.219 --> 00:50:08.800 to raise funds for legal offense at this point. 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.920 And again, on our website, if you want to go 00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:13.880 there, there's all the information on how you 00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:18.260 can help them out if you want to. And yeah, they're 00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:20.539 not in prison right now, but they are out on 00:50:20.539 --> 00:50:23.519 bail and are looking forward to legal proceedings 00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:27.300 in the future. I would be happy to help them. 00:50:27.619 --> 00:50:32.659 Thank you, Jerry. And let's be let's show solidarity 00:50:32.659 --> 00:50:37.559 to you know, in this movement. So yeah, that's 00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.980 it for me. Jerry, did you want to add something 00:50:40.980 --> 00:50:44.119 before we stop the recording? No, I think I think 00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:48.019 it's important just to let you know and let your 00:50:48.019 --> 00:50:52.139 viewers know that there's almost no downside 00:50:52.139 --> 00:50:53.840 compared to what the animals are going through. 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:56.059 There's almost no downside to what we go through 00:50:56.059 --> 00:50:59.300 in trying to help them. And so whatever it is 00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:04.460 that is your passion and your calling, be brave 00:51:04.460 --> 00:51:07.179 and get out there and do whatever needs to be 00:51:07.179 --> 00:51:11.639 done that you're good at doing. And don't worry 00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:14.880 if the... if the police come calling, it's only 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.980 because you're being so effective. And it's not 00:51:17.980 --> 00:51:19.639 likely that you're going to spend any time in 00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:21.860 jail. But if you ever do find yourself there, 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:24.760 very unlikely. But if you ever do, you know that 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:26.599 there's plenty of us out there that got your 00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:29.980 back. Exactly. Plenty of people that will think 00:51:29.980 --> 00:51:34.519 about you, including Jerry, including the press 00:51:34.519 --> 00:51:39.989 office, including me. And yes. So thank you so 00:51:39.989 --> 00:51:41.989 much, Jerry. Thank you for having taken the time 00:51:41.989 --> 00:51:47.630 to answer my questions and remember those people, 00:51:48.670 --> 00:51:51.949 those fallen warriors. Great to be here. I'll 00:51:51.949 --> 00:51:54.809 see you next time. Thank you everyone for listening. 00:51:55.449 --> 00:51:58.190 I kindly invite you to share this podcast with 00:51:58.190 --> 00:52:01.289 the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people 00:52:01.289 --> 00:52:04.869 to take action. Again, thank you so much for 00:52:04.869 --> 00:52:07.840 caring and I will see you next Tuesday. for a 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:08.699 new episode.