Bill Rogers, Reagan Russell, William Sweet, Fernando
Pereira, Bartolomé Morais de Silva, Mike Hill,
Tom Warby, Jill Phipps, Carol Van Nopen, David
Gypsy -Jane, Beth O 'Brien, Robert Naya Bryan,
Barry Horn. Those are the names of the activists
featured in the Fallen Warriors section of the
North American Animal Liberation Press Office
website. In other words, those are activists
who have paid the ultimate price, their life,
for standing up to animal abuse and exploitation.
My name is Ryan. You are listening to The Vegan
Report. And in today's episode, I invited Dr.
Jerry Vlasak, a press officer and longtime animal
rights activist, to remember those heroes and
reflect upon their sacrifice and legacy. We also
remember those who have sacrificed their freedom
for the animal cause, most notably Marius Mason
and Maxime Ploucoy, who are still serving their
sentence. in prison as i was telling you before
we started the recording i'm really glad to see
you back on the vegan report we recorded an episode
about a year more than that i think more than
a year ago And it was an amazing conversation.
I will leave a link to that conversation in the
episode notes and highly recommend people to
go and listen to that past episode. But yeah,
welcome back, Jerry. Great to be back. Glad to
be here. Wonderful. So today, I wanted to discuss
with you the price that sometimes comes with
doing activism for animals. And let me start
the conversation with this question. How likely
is it to pay that price, whether to be victimized
for standing up for animals, whether we're talking
about imprisonment or censorship, any of that.
Let's talk about the spectrum of punishments
out there. reserved for activists, and also how
likely it is to fall victim to debt to those
forms of punishments. Well, first of all, the
vast majority of people who help animals don't
have to worry about any sort of a penalty in
regards to either being arrested or even worse
in prison for a significant amount of time. It's
there have been, you know, obviously there are
thousands and thousands of demonstrations and
other kinds of nonviolent action going on all
the time on behalf of animals. And it's very,
very rare that anybody even gets arrested. And
most of those people that get arrested or are
just basically processed and released within
a few hours. And most of those times the charges
are dropped and nothing ever happens. At any
given moment, there's a very, very small number
of people that are imprisoned for longer periods
of time. I think at the current moment, there's
only a couple of people that are in prison despite,
and those are people that broke the law, purposely
broke the law to help animals, which as the North
American Animal Liberation Press Office, we advocate
for that. We report on it. We tell you how to
do it. We encourage you to do it because we personally
think that breaking a system of unjust laws to
help animals is a moral obligation for the most
part. Not everyone can do it. Not everyone knows
how or is in the position to do it, but we highly
encourage it. And of the people that do that,
and there are on average about 200 episodes every
year that we know of where people break the law
to help animals and probably at least that many
more that we don't know about because they never
report it. uh so over the year we've been we've
been reporting on this for more than 20 years
there have been thousands and thousands of actions
where people have purposely broke the law to
help animals and i can almost count on both hands
a number of times people have been arrested and
spent any kind of time in prison for that so
it's very very very unlikely Among the people
that do get arrested, most of those people are
people at demonstrations where things get kind
of rowdy, or perhaps the police just decide to
arrest people arbitrarily. And as I said before,
most of those people spend a very, very short
amount of time in the legal system, and most
of them walk away with no charges at the end
of the day. So all of that said, it's extremely
unlikely and it should really not be a major
consideration when people are thinking about
getting active and becoming an activist on behalf
of animals. I think you also mentioned that there
have been people that have paid the ultimate
price, people who have been killed trying to
help animals. And I find it kind of ironic because
animal rights activists are portrayed in the
media sometimes and certainly by our opposition
as being these violent people who are out to
hurt people in some form or fashion. Whereas
in reality, no animal rights activists are ever
seriously armed an animal abuser, even though
some of them may deserve it. On the other hand,
there have been a number of animal rights activists
that have lost their lives, been killed by animal
abusers. Most of the time uh are not all most
of the time but at least some of the times these
have been accidents a couple of people have been
run over by trucks carrying animals to slaughter
houses most recently was an activist in canada
actually uh that i'm sure you know about reagan
russell that was struck by a truck she was offering
water to pigs as they were being taken to slaughter
so there have been a few people that have paid
the ultimate price but again over 20 years that
we've been reporting and at least another 20
years before that where actions have been going
on, there have been very, very few people that
have had to pay that price. So overall, I think
being an animal activist is a perfectly safe
thing to do as opposed to what happens if we
don't become activists. And that is to sit idly
by while billions of animals are tortured and
killed in a system that legally says that's okay.
I would be remiss to have this conversation without
mentioning what happened to Paul Watson in Denmark,
how he was detained. And it reminded me of what
you just mentioned, that irony of being punished
and being the victim of some form of state violence,
because you are standing up for the lives of
innocent creatures. And that's the case of Paul
Watson, you know, who can blame him for having
victimized anyone, for having taken the life
of someone for having committed some outrageous
crime, yet he was facing the potential of spending
the rest of his life. in prison, something like
a capital sentence in Japanese jails. What do
you make of that severity that they displayed
towards him? Do you think they wanted to make
him an example? Yeah, that brings up a good point.
Paul Watson, who's a friend of mine, by the way,
was arrested and was threatened with a very long
detention. And that goes to prove that the more
effective you are, the harder they will come
after you. So as Andrew Lindsay, who's a theologian
from the UK, said once at a conference that I
attended, you only feel the change when you begin
to move. And I think when people are, the more
effective we are as activists, and I think Paul
Watson is right near the top there on the effectiveness
that any activist could ever be, I think the
more we threaten the profits of capitalists who
make their living and their riches off of animal
exploitation, the more we threaten that. In his
case, mainly the people that were killing whales
in the Antarctic Ocean. from Japan was that Japan
issued an international arrest warrant for him
and probably would have locked him up for the
rest of his life if they were given the chance.
He was an effective activist. He was exposing
these atrocities to the world and making Japan
look bad. So the more effective we are, the more
likely they are to come after us and the more
likely they are to come after us with a heavy
handed fashion. So I think that's a good representation.
But on the other hand, the choice is to not be
effective, to perhaps stand miles away from a
place of animal abuse with a sign twice a week
and not have any real chance of helping those
animals. I don't think they're likely to come
after somebody that's doing that. But the more
effective we are, and whether that's breaking
the law to help animals or like Paul Watson,
obeying the law and still helping animals, the
more effective you are, the more likely they
are to come knocking at your door. I think he
puts it best when when he says that he was about
to be punished for kindness, basically. What
do you make of the fact that this very, you know,
punishment, this detention, this bad thing that
happened to him actually helped a lot his cause
and was just this tremendous PR campaign for
his foundation, for the good work that he's doing
and way to focus the world on this issue. No,
I think it's great that we can take these unfortunate
incidences and turn them around and use them
in our favor. And so that's what was done in
his case. I was once arrested for opposing the
seal hunt. on the eastern coast of Canada. And
when it came time to turn myself in to go to
jail, I made sure that I turned myself in on
the same day they started the hunt the next year.
And therefore got a lot of publicity about that.
And while I was in jail, I was on a hunger strike
and got publicity for that. So we turn, we turn
these incidences to our advantage when whenever
we can. And Paul's always been really good at
that. Yeah, you were detained in you were punished
for your activism. Did the press office ever
face any scrutiny from the authorities? You know,
when we started the press office back in 2004,
we were pretty sure they were that the authorities
were going to come after us. They were going
to think, well, they must know who those people
are that are breaking law, that they're reporting
on on these actions. And we're going to come
and grab them and maybe lock them up or maybe
take their computers and see what we can find
on their computers. We used to think that all
the time. So we had all kind of measures in place
to make sure that, you know, the computers were
backed up every single day and a whole bunch
of different places and that we used a lot of
encryption and things like that. but you know
it hasn't really happened and I think ultimately
the authorities know who we are and know that
we're careful to not cross any lines that we
don't know who the people are that are breaking
the law. We don't want to know who the people
are that are breaking the law so it hasn't been
a real issue. I've had the authorities come to
my home and ransack it one time in 20 years and
of course they didn't find anything that was
of any use to them at that time either. So far
we have not been, that might not mean that they're
piling up a bunch of boxes in a room somewhere
and they're getting ready to come after us any
minute now, but I suspect that's not true. Like
I said, we've been doing this, I've been doing
this for 20 years and hasn't really been a problem.
And I think that's the important thing to delineate
between who we are as a press office, that we
don't know who it is. the members of the Animal
Liberation Front or other groups out there that
are breaking the law to help animals. We don't
know who they are. We don't know where they're
located. There's no club you can join. People
that want to join the Animal Liberation Front
just become the Animal Liberation Front. They
go out there and they abide by a certain minimal
set of guidelines. And they break the law in
ways that help animals, whether it's chance to
inflict economic sabotage against people who
are profiting from animal abuse or whether it's
actually liberating animals from conditions where
they're being abused or occasionally even threatening
people that are abusing animals when no other
means will work to stop them from doing what
they're doing. But again, that's not us. We report
on these actions. We let people know about them.
We let the mainstream media know why these things
are happening. and we let other activists know
why these things are happening. And we encourage
other activists to do these types of things as
well. We make no secret about that. I can't say
that in the UK, for instance, I'd go to jail
just for saying that I'm encouraging people to
do this. I want people to break the law. I want
people to help animals in whatever are the most
effective ways possible. And I think breaking
the law is frequently one of the most effective
ways possible. It's not the only way, and I don't
think it's the only way, nor should it be the
only way, but it's one way of helping animals.
And that's one thing that we just want to make
sure everybody knows about. You're right about
the fact that you would not be able to have a
press office in the UK, nor in Germany or even
in France, although you highlight actions done
in those countries. So let's talk about this
authority. Do you think there is a difference
of aggression and antagonism with the animal
cause? in terms of countries. Do you think there
are countries like Denmark who are much more
antagonistic towards animal advocates than others?
Well, I think it's all about just following the
money and when you look at where people are making
money off animal exploitation and animal abuse,
that's where the government's going to stand
up for them and protect that right of theirs
to make money because that's what capitalist
societies are all about is making as much money
as possible and exploiting anybody or any animal
or any human that you have to exploit to maximize
your profits. I don't know that Denmark is necessarily
any worse than anybody else. I think they happened
to grab Paul Watson on this international arrest
warrant, and they ultimately made the right decision
and decided not to turn him over. Historically,
Denmark hasn't really been any worse than anybody
else. I think places like the UK, where animal
activism has been the most effective. As I mentioned
before, the more effective you are, the more
likely they are to crack down on you. I think
there are a lot more laws in the UK about protecting
animals and people having to follow a certain
set of rules. For instance, there used to be
a publication that was called the ALF Support
Group and they would mail, they would have this
publication, they'd mail it to people, they'd
hand it out to people at events. basically talking
kind of like what we do about people that have
broken the law and how other people can get active
and how you could support them by donating money
for their prison funds and things like that.
And that was outlawed right after I came into
the movement back in the late 90s. It became
illegal in the UK to promote illegal direct action
in any form or fashion. So they do have a group
there called Unoffensive Animal. I'd like to
give a shout out to Unoffensive Animal. They
do sort of like what we do. They report on animal
activism and people who break the law to help
animals. But they have to walk a much finer line
than we do here. We have much more freedom of
speech in the United States than they have there.
Most other European countries are... about the
same. If you look at where people are most effective,
it tends to be where the laws are the strongest.
I don't know a whole lot about the laws in places
like China and Japan. There's been historically
a lot less reporting on illegal direct action
in those countries. That doesn't mean it's not
happening. It just means that it's not being
reported on succinctly. And so we don't really
know what's going on there. I'm not aware of
anybody that's been imprisoned in China. or Japan
recently that for animal activism, not to say
that it's not there, but not that we know about.
We all know that famous saying from Gandhi, the
quality of a society is can be assessed by how
they treat animals. Well, I learned a lot about
my country, Canada and the US and other countries
out there by how they treat ALF. activists and
animal advocates. It's really a way to test the
strength of the democracies in those countries.
Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think so.
Even though the UK has cracked down more vociferously
on people for breaking the law to help animals,
they also have some of the best animal welfare
laws in the world. I mean, they don't have veal
crates in the UK. They don't allow circuses with
animals. There's still a lot of animal suffering
going on in the UK, don't get me wrong, but they
do have some of the most humane welfare acts,
if you will, in the UK. So yeah, I mean, you
have to kind of, you know, weigh that around.
Whereas places like, you know, in Korea, where
until recently killing dogs for the meat trade
was still a common occurrence. And again, not
that killing dogs is any worse than killing cows
or any other animals. It's just that we identify
with dogs here in the United States and Canada
more than than other animals. But yeah, I think,
you know, different rules in different countries,
but there's not really a country that's friendly
to animals. I don't think we see a country where
animals are afforded any sort of respect that
they deserve anywhere, really. And I should mention
that the ban on the dog meat trade in South Korea
will take into effect only in 2027, if I'm not
mistaken. So it's still happening, but it won't
happen starting with the year 2027. Okay, so
let's talk about the extreme of that spectrum
of punishment, which is, you know, death, ending
up assassinated or murdered or losing your life
for your activism and You mentioned Reagan Russell
the Canadian was struck by truck and While you
know protesting in a slaughterhouse or at the
doors of a slaughterhouse I guess you know the
first time I heard about Reagan Russell The first
thing that shocked me was how the trucker did
not get very, was not really punished or get
the full force of the law for what he had done.
Were you surprised by that? No, I wasn't surprised
at all. I think he ended up with a $2 ,000 fine
or something and certainly didn't go to jail.
despite the fact that he knew there were activists
there, I'm not going to say he ran over her intentionally,
but he was definitely negligent in his actions,
which the court found. But again, the legal system
is not going to punish people who are part of
the machinery that allows animal agriculture
and animal exploitation to go on. In other words,
it would It would set precedent that then people
would exploit and try to stop more of the suppression
in different ways. If they were to let, if they
were to make, for instance, this guy go to jail
for a long period of time, then all of a sudden
the truck drivers would be a lot more cautious.
And then we as activists could exploit that into
keeping the trucks from rolling into these power,
into these slaughterhouses. I think the law,
we have to remember that the law is there to
protect the profits of the wealthy and those
corporations that make money off the exploitation,
not just of animals, but of humans as well. And
I don't think we can expect in the reasonable
future that any of that's going to change. I'm
not surprised that he got off. I'm surprised
he even got fined, to be honest. What do you
make of the activists in South America, in Brazil,
who oppose the deforestation of the Amazon and
are assassinated by ranchers, basically, or some
hitmen hired by the ranchers. They're not really
animal advocate. But you know, what do you make
of them? Well, I mean, they're obviously exceedingly
brave people. They know who they're up against,
and they know the laws that will allow their
retribution against them. And they do it anyway.
And I think that's when you start talking about...
real revolutionary ideas when people know that
they're facing the ultimate punishment and are
willing to step up and do it anyway. In the struggle
for animal liberation, we really haven't had
to face that much. There's not many times when,
as animal activists, we go into a situation knowing
that there's a reasonably good chance that we
could be killed or injured. So those people are
a lot braver than we are, I think. I've always
looked at my activism anytime I might have spent
in jail or in other uncomfortable situations.
I've always just tried to compare that to what
the animals are undergoing. And the animals have
it so, so, so much worse that it never deters
me from doing what I want to do. And I don't
think it should. And again, we're not really
facing the real threat. I mean, I'm not saying
it's never happened, but it's not a very likely
condition that one of us, even on the very front
lines, the people that are facing down the police
at demonstrations or the people liberating animals
in the middle of the night from fur farms or
the people throwing rocks through the windows
of animal exploiters. I mean, none of us are
really facing the kind of retribution that these
people are in places like Africa and South America
where they're literally putting their lives on
the line every single day when they try to protect
wild habitat or animals that are being poached
and killed by poachers. Those in Africa that
are trying to protect environments and animals
there that are being poached for their horns
like rhinoceros and elephants and so forth. I
mean, those people face death almost on a daily
basis. And they're incredibly brave. And I think
we should look up to them. And I think we should
learn from them. And we should say, huh, look
what they're doing. I mean, it's nothing what
we're what we're facing here. So why should we
be afraid? We should go out there and do what
needs to be done and not worry about it. Exactly.
And cases like uh, Regan Russell are really rare.
Um, but I, I do still think, you know, it's important
to remember, um, um, those, those people and
what happened to them only, you know, as a minimum
for at least, you know, highlighting, um, this
horrific face of, um, uh, the, the exploitation
of animal of this industry. of exploiting animals.
Do you agree with that? Absolutely. I think it's
very important that we remember these activists.
We have on our website on the prisoners page,
if you scroll down to the bottom, there's a whole
section on fallen warriors where we try to remember
them. And I think every year, the anniversary
of people like Jill Phipps, who also died under
the wheels of a slaughter truck, people like
Barry Horn, who died in prison on a hunger strike
protesting continued animal exploitation. I think
I think these people should remember and should
live on in our in our history and that we should
remember them when if occasionally we face hardships
and and so forth in our campaigning for animals,
if we can remember them, I think it can it can
give us strength. I know it I know it does me.
Yes, I feel the same way. I don't want to make
them into martyrs or something like that. But
it definitely is good, I think, to give meaning
to their lives and highlight that they did not
die in vain, that there is in a way a purpose
to it. Is there one of those fallen warriors
who really made an impact on you, particularly
so? Well, each and every one of them is important
to me in some respect. I think Jill Phipps, who
was killed right around the time I was becoming
active and spending some time in the UK, I was
at some of the demonstrations that were very
similar to the ones where she was killed. So
it rang a particular bell with me at that point.
Yeah, Barry Horne, of course, was an inspiration
to a lot of people. There have been hundreds
of actions to help animals that have been dedicated
to Berryhorn in the ultimate sacrifice that he
paid. He was a member of the underground who
was active for many, many years before eventually
getting a long prison sentence and went on a
hunger strike trying to get the government to
honor their promises to end certain animal exploitation.
laws and when they reneged on those laws, he
went on a hunger strike to try to force them
to obey their word and eventually paid the price.
And I think you just don't find anybody more
dedicated than somebody like Barry. So he's been
an inspiration to me as well to lots of other
people as well. their celebration, not celebrations,
but there's acknowledgments every year on the
anniversary of his death, as well as Jill's and
Reagan's and others as well. What should we be
doing to acknowledge those deaths to remember
those people? Yeah, what actions? I think the
best thing anybody can do to honor these fallen
warriors and things that people have done is
to get out there and help animals. And you can
dedicate your actions to these warriors if you're
so inclined. But I think if you could ask any
of them what they would want. they would want
people to be out there helping animals and doing
whatever they can to help animals and whether
that's being a member of the animal liberation
front or whether that's being a protester or
whether that's being someone who's working on
legislation, whatever it takes. I think the best
way to honor these people who made the ultimate
sacrifice is, and what they would want, I believe
is that we're out there continuing the struggle.
And yeah. That's that's the way I look at it.
Let's now talk about the prisoners and the people
and let's start with the people who are currently
in jail. Who are those people and why did they
end up in jail? Here in the United States, the
only person I'm aware of currently in prison
for animal activism is Marius Mason, Marius Mason.
was a member of the underground helping animals
and got a very long prison term for some reason,
even though people that were involved in the
same organization as she was got much lighter
terms. I believe that the original sentence was
21 years in prison. and they're looking at a
release here in the next couple of years. So
we're all excited about that. But yeah, Marius
has had a tough time as a transgender person
in the legal system here in the United States.
It hasn't been easy for him. But somebody that
we should remember, try to write letters to donate
to their support fund if you can. Again, all
this information is available on our website
under the prisoners tab. But yeah, Marius Mason
is So he wrote to a lot of us. Interesting enough,
in Ukraine, there's a guy named Maxim Volkoi.
I don't know if you heard about him, but he's
a guy who took a busload of people hostage. And
I use that term in quotation marks because he
never really was going to hurt anybody. And I
think he made that clear to everybody that was
on the bus. But he actually got his president
of Ukraine to recommend that everybody in the
country watch Earthlings. And who knows? And
the President did. The President went on television
in Ukraine and asked everybody to watch Earthlings.
And true to his word, he walked off the bus and
got, as you can imagine, got a pretty good prison
term. We've been in touch with him. He has writings.
He writes essays every once in a while, and we
publish those. And again, there's ways you can
support Maxim from our website. as well. It was
an activist in Sweden that's just recently been
released. Sundre person was unjustly jailed after
his animal rights activism and has been released
from the psychiatric force care unit where he
was forced to go and imprisoned without really
any justification and without any idea of how
long he was going to be there. So, yeah, that's
pretty much that's most of the people that we
know about that are currently incarcerated. And
can you repeat the part about what we can do
to support them? Yeah. The thing that makes prisoners
happy when they're in jail and especially for
any length of time is to hear from the outside,
obviously not discuss their case in particular,
but tell them about just everything. that's going
on in the world, especially in relationship to
animals and animal exploitation and how animals
are being helped by those that are still free
out there. So writing letters to prisoners is
a really easy, inexpensive, and great way that
you can support them while they're in jail. They
love to hear from people. You can make pen pals.
I've written to them as myself. I think it's
a great way to get to know them and maybe even
get to know them when they get out of prison.
You can also, if you have a few extra dollars
laying around, contribute to their funds, which
is used to help out with expenses in prisons,
such as buying vegan food and other things to
make their life a little bit more comfortable
while they're in prison, as well as helping them
get their foot on the ground when they come out
of prison. those are the ways that people can
help. And it's like I said, it's easy to do and
it makes a makes a big difference to people who
have who have been in prison for helping animals.
And all of that is explaining how to do it in
the press office website. Yes, again, that's
animal liberation press office .org. And there's
a tab on the main page that take you to the prisoners
and it talks about how to write them letters,
things you should say and shouldn't say. And
also they are some of them. They both, I believe,
have support websites where you can go and learn
more about their cases and also contribute money
if you if you'd like to. I love the idea of and,
you know, there will be links in the description
again for convenience. And I love the idea of
writing to prisoners. You know, I've been a long
time activist with Amnesty International, and
that's their big thing, you know, sending letters
to prisoners who have defended human rights,
not animal rights, in authoritative states, and
it does make a difference. Yeah, it's a good
thing. It's a very efficient tool of putting
pressure on governments and breaking that solitude
that they must feel in those prisons. I was just
going to say, although I have never been incarcerated
for a long period of time, I have talked to people
after they've gotten out of prison that felt
like, you know, there is a lot of isolation there
because you're basically surrounded by people
who are in prison for a lot of reasons, but usually
it doesn't have anything to do with helping anybody,
much less helping animals. And so I think there
is a sense of isolation and it really, really
helps to hear from people through letters and
even phone calls. I've been in touch with prisoners
on phone calls where they were actually allowed
to call out and I was able to talk to them. But
I think that helps alleviate some of that isolation
and let them know that we have their back and
that we'll make sure that they're taken care
of. And I think that in turn makes people on
the outside more willing to engage in riskier
behavior because they know that if they are caught,
it's very unlikely that they will be. in the
very, very rare event that they are called, they
know that they'll have they'll have our support.
Yes, definitely. And what does it feel, you know,
and tell me from the discussions you had with
them to be in those prisons, like you said, surrounded
by thieves and murderers and drug dealers, when
all you've done is, you know, speak up and and
do something to save lives. It must be, you know,
just crazy. The crazy feeling to to to be there
in that place for. Yeah, no doubt. I think. I
think prisons are way over villainized in TV
shows and so forth. I don't think prisons are
as bad as everybody thinks they are. I don't
think that, you know. people are getting sexually
abused every day and getting beaten up every
day and stabbed every day. I mean, the people
I've talked to that have spent a long time in
here, as in multiple years in prison, have said
that it's no fun being there. No doubt about
it. Nobody wants to be there, but it's also a
daily routine that you fall into. And you are
looked at differently. I think the other prisoners
look at you as like, well, he's here for helping
animals. That doesn't make any sense. I think
And therefore, I think you are treated differently.
And the people I've talked to that have spent
time in prison haven't really come out thinking,
oh, it ruined my life or anything like that.
In fact, historically, people that have come
out of prison have been motivated to stay active
and maybe not risk going back to prison, but
talk about it and talk to other people about
how they can get active and do things. I don't
think we need to worry about it too much. I think
you do what you have to do to get along while
you're in prison and then you get back out and
get right back to work. Certainly the activists
in the UK, there were some activists like Keith
Mann, Mel Broughton, some others that would go
to prison and they'd come back out and they'd
get right back to work. They didn't even... think
about, you know, retiring or doing something
safer, they just went right back to work because,
again, compared to what the animals are going
through, nothing they do to us can compare at
all. And I think those of us that can keep the
thought in our heads about what the animals are
going through, I think that's what motivates
us to keep doing what we're doing, even if there
is some risk involved. And again, it's not a
big risk, but some risk anyway. Yes. I want to
echo your point on, on prisons. That's why I
use the word punishment for animal advocates
because for me, prisons are a tool of social
reinsertion for people who, you know, and that's
my opinion is a bit out there, but who I don't
think it's their fault that they're there. I
think there is a that we should look at it from
a determinism point of view. And those persons
should exist and should serve to help those people
be reinstated, give them the tools to socialize
better. For animal advocates, it's not necessary.
They're not there because they don't care about
people. They're there because they care about
society. They care about people and they care
about animals, which is nonsense. And that's
why, you know, it is a form of punishment to
put them there. It's not helping anyone. Uh,
who is scared of those vegan, uh, you know, if,
if you do a poll, um, with, you know, general,
the general public who have never heard of veganism
or the animal cause, I'm pretty sure that most
of them would be outraged to, um, um, realize
that some people get in prison for that. Yeah.
I don't know about Canada, but certainly United
States there's, uh, just about zero effort in
our prisons to help people reintegrate into society
or to overcome any issues they might have with
anger or drug use or anything else. It's simply
a way of locking people up and making them miserable
and the recidivism rate is astronomically high
so that nobody's going to learn their lesson
by going to prison. even if they were doing something
that wasn't particularly useful to society. And
to your point, yes, people that are in prison
for helping animals, the absurdity is just terrible.
But I also think that if we look at what the
animals are doing, life without parole, every
single one of them, and most of them are on death
row. And they didn't do anything wrong. Okay,
like us, they didn't do anything wrong. They're
just being in prison, tortured and killed, executed
because of who they are and because somebody
can make a lot of money by doing it. And the
prison industrial complex, again, at least in
the United States is also about making as much
money as they possibly can off of prisoners.
And so I don't expect things to change anytime
soon in that regard. Luckily, like I've tried
to reiterate several times here, the chances
of any of us going to prison for any length of
period of time is very, very, very low. And indeed,
the people that break laws to help animals are
even less likely to go to prison or jail than
the people like Paul Watson who are standing
up for animals publicly and doing things that
threaten corporate profits. So I don't think
we need to do it. worry too much about going
to prison if you're helping animals. Again, it
happens so rarely and infrequently. We've been
focusing on it today because that's the topic
of the discussion. But I think in reality, anybody
that wants to help animals, whether that means
breaking the law or not, is very unlikely to
face any sort of prison time. Yes. And I think,
you know, my audience is made of ethical vegan
activists. So I think They understand the nuances
of that and they are receptive to that. They
do get it. Yeah. And what about then the other
forms of punishments from states, such as, you
know, the violation of free speech rights. You
know, we mentioned the UK and other minor things,
you know. that are not prison sentences or even
death sentences. Not really my area of expertise.
And I don't know that I can add a lot to that
discussion. I think that, again, the more effective
we become, the more likely we are to suffer impingement
on our rights in general. I also think obviously
the I don't think anybody has to. knows what
I'm not guessing what I'm talking about when
I say that the political climate can also make
a huge difference in people's right to free speech
with, you know, people being just scooped off
the street and deported to other countries for
further speech without any sort of due process
of law whatsoever. So yeah, political winds can
certainly blow a different direction and take
away some of those rights that we're used to
doing dealing with. much as they did in the UK,
the animal rights activists in the UK were were
so effective that a lot of their rights were
taken away. And I certainly think that's something
that could be coming down, down the pike here
in the United States. And I don't know, maybe
not as much in Canada. But yeah, again, I'm sorry,
I can't add a whole lot to that discussion. But
yes, I still had to ask, um, Okay, so all of
those victims of imprisonment or all forms of
oppression, persecution from governments did
not stay quiet about their experiences. They
did put them into writing. And in our last conversation,
we talked about the book, The ALF Strikes Again,
which was such an amazing read for me. Um, um,
I, I recommend it, uh, for me, it has become
a dose of bravery. So whenever I need to, you
know, my, my daily or weekly dose of bravery
or monthly, I just opened that book and learn
about the stories of, of, uh, the activists,
including Paul Watson. I think he's in chapter
three of the book or, but yeah. So what other
books have been written by, um, activists from
the ALF talking about their actions, but also
their victimization. Well, The ALF Strikes Back
is a great book written by a former ALF activist
and former federal prisoner, Peter Young. He's
a very good writer and he's done a lot since
he's been out of prison talking about his experiences
and motivating other people. So yeah, that's
a great book to read. He's also got a book called
Liberation that's also available, all these available
on Amazon, by the way, or our website at animal
liberation press office dot org. One of my personal
favorites is a fairly small book written by another
former ALF activist, Rod Coronado, who was active
and liberating animals from fur farms back in
the late 90s and then ended up spending a few
years in prison. But he wrote a book. Actually,
it was a a series of essays which were compiled
into a small book called Flaming Arrows. And
it's a very inspiring book and one that I reread
every once in a while because it was inspiring
to me when I was a younger activist and it still
brings inspiration. So yeah, those are three
really good books for anybody that wants to get
inspired. At least if it anything like how it
affected me, you won't be the same person after
you read them. And I think he was also featured
in DLF Strikes Back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Rod's
sort of the OG of the animal liberation front
in the United States. He was a real inspiration
to a lot of people and is still active. In fact,
he's still working on protection of wild wolves
up in the New England area. And I've heard from
him quite recently. So he's he's still out there
all these years later. So there's so few people
that not only people that have spent time in
prison, but just people that have been active
like Paul Watson for their entire lives for decades.
And it's inspiring to see these people that are
that are still out there, including Peter and
Rod and Paul and so many others. It's great.
And I would love to get him on the show and have
a discussion with him after reading his book,
of course. Jerry, this was a wonderful conversation.
I hope people, like you said, do not feel frightened
to do activism work because of the imprisonment
risk or other risks. Like you said many times,
it's minimal. And there's a silver lining to
all of those bad things. And this movement has
this magical ability to take some of the worst
situations and turn them into strengths, which
is always a beautiful thing to see. Yeah, I wouldn't
be I would be remiss if I didn't also mention
a couple of people that are out on bail that
are actually aren't prisoners, but Kara and Celeste
are a couple of activists in the New England
area that were recently arrested and charged
with trying to liberate animals. And obviously,
we Nobody has any idea whether they're guilty
or not. They're in the early stages of the legal
proceedings, but anybody that wants to support
them, that's Kara and Celeste. They're trying
to raise funds for legal offense at this point.
And again, on our website, if you want to go
there, there's all the information on how you
can help them out if you want to. And yeah, they're
not in prison right now, but they are out on
bail and are looking forward to legal proceedings
in the future. I would be happy to help them.
Thank you, Jerry. And let's be let's show solidarity
to you know, in this movement. So yeah, that's
it for me. Jerry, did you want to add something
before we stop the recording? No, I think I think
it's important just to let you know and let your
viewers know that there's almost no downside
compared to what the animals are going through.
There's almost no downside to what we go through
in trying to help them. And so whatever it is
that is your passion and your calling, be brave
and get out there and do whatever needs to be
done that you're good at doing. And don't worry
if the... if the police come calling, it's only
because you're being so effective. And it's not
likely that you're going to spend any time in
jail. But if you ever do find yourself there,
very unlikely. But if you ever do, you know that
there's plenty of us out there that got your
back. Exactly. Plenty of people that will think
about you, including Jerry, including the press
office, including me. And yes. So thank you so
much, Jerry. Thank you for having taken the time
to answer my questions and remember those people,
those fallen warriors. Great to be here. I'll
see you next time. Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with
the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people
to take action. Again, thank you so much for
caring and I will see you next Tuesday. for a
new episode.