Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan,
and a week ago, I came across the Kickstarter
campaign of a vegan couple named Tom and Saul
to launch their fantastic illustrated book called
Reynard the House Wolf, which is all about escaping
the city, reconnecting with nature, and growing
curious, compassionate, and loving towards our
fellow animals. The message behind this project,
its philosophy, and just how thoughtful and talented
Tom and Saul are compelled me to support their
Kickstarter campaign and invite them on the show
for an incredible conversation on their journey
out of the city and the power of their art. But
before that, let me play a segment of their Kickstarter
campaign trailer. Hopefully this will inspire
you to support them Enjoy! This book is perfect
for kids who are too old for typical children's
books and are in need of something to challenge,
excite and inspire them But really, we've made
a work that we hope will help readers of all
ages to connect with our deeper nature. It certainly
helped us. During the four years we spent crafting
this work, our real life mirrored Raynard's adventure
as we relocated from our city life to life in
our off -grid cabin on the shore of Lake Superior,
where Raynard has finally found the forests of
his dreams. In the end, Reynard is a metaphor
for all of us. At once a wolf and a dog. With
two paws in the forest. Two paws in the city.
And a heart that won't be tamed. So, hi Tom and
Saul. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much
for being here. Well, thank you for having us.
We're really looking forward to talking with
you. Yeah, thank you so much. Okay, you're here
today because I've always had this idea that
the city has something evil to it and that it
was always worth it to go out of the city and
reconnect with nature but you took it like a
step further than what I was thinking you know
which is living in the suburbs or maybe a smaller
town you actually live in the wilderness and
I want to talk about this to start the conversation.
So what motivated you to make that decision and
how was it? Yeah, well, like you say, a lot of
people maybe have the feeling that living in
the middle of the city, surrounded by traffic
and light pollution and nonstop noise and, you
know, all of these factors which didn't exist
for the hundreds of thousands of years that humans
have evolved in freedom of nature, that does
have a jarring effect on people, whether we know
it or not. And increasingly, Sol and I were feeling
that. And we also had just acquired a beautiful
border collie puppy named Reynard. And when you
get a dog, it's kind of like having a child.
You stop thinking about only yourself, but what
is the kind of life that I want my dog to have?
And we were really excited about him being able
to run around freely and kind of live the life
of his dreams. So I guess that's kind of what
started our quest to find a piece of property.
We wanted to be as close to a... a large forest,
ideally an old -growth forest, protected forest,
a place that was so wild that there were actually
wolves in it. We wanted to be near water. We
had kind of this fantasy, which seemed impossible
to achieve. But lo and behold, now we live in
an off -grid cabin right next to the Porcupine
Mountains in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,
which is the largest old -growth forest in Michigan.
And we live on the shore of Lake Superior, which
is the largest freshwater lake on Earth. And
Reynard really has found the land of his dreams
now, and so have we. And of course, it has its
difficulties. We live off -grid and we don't
have electricity or running water. But the difficulties
are really part of the learning experience. Also,
Tom and I, since we met, we have been traveling
to many countries and we have volunteered for
different projects, working in farms. So we had
already experienced being off grid and in nature
with these programs. We always had like other
people with us. This is the first time we're
just by ourselves, but We enjoyed being in nature
and not having the internet connection all the
time, you know, so we would enjoy playing music,
writing, walking in the forest or just being
in silence. And I think that that experience
really opened our eyes to what our life could
be if we moved to the countryside or to the forest.
Yeah, like a few years ago, we did a backpacking
trip in India and we spent six months with no
cell phone, no laptop, no gadgets of any kind.
So you can imagine the difficulty of traveling
in a foreign country with no connection. But
it led to so much connection with ourselves,
you know, like when you have no distractions.
And so that's kind of what we were looking for
also is a place where we were limited by how
much Internet we can have. That's one of the
main challenges in the modern world is being
able to focus your mind and not get distracted
by stuff on the internet. So now we have some
solar power. And for example, as we're giving
this podcast with you, the solar power is counting
down 98%, 95%, 92%. So we've got plenty of time,
but we do have to think about when we're just
cruising on the internet later. how much time
are we gonna spend, you know, checking Instagram
or Facebook, because then maybe we can't use
the coffee grinders tomorrow. Is it worth it
to watch the cat videos right now? When I hear
you talk about that way of life, it just brings
me so much joy. But I know for a fact that for
most people that would be hell. And why do I
know that? Well, I went to a meditation retreat,
um, and it was, you know, in the middle of nowhere
and no internet, nothing. And you were in a,
in this cabin middle of the woods. And I felt
so good. Uh, I spent a week in that cabin and
it was wonderful. What a wonderful time I had.
Um, and then at the end of the retreat, I was
talking to one of the monks there. So it was
a monastery and he said, you know, it's, uh,
it's a great thing you've done because, um, most
people quit after day one, actually, they don't
go beyond, you know, the, uh, the night. And
I thought, Oh, that's, that's weird. Why? Why
is that? And He said, I don't know, maybe it's
just there for the first time in a while, they're
just alone with their thoughts. And it's just
a hard, a hard experience for them. So I guess
what do you make of the people who would feel
like this is torture, you know, living disconnected
and away from everything. yeah well there is
a transition period of course if you go from
high stimulus living to suddenly being without
a connection in the middle of the forest the
first two or three days can be a strange and
restless experience but it's all about how you
frame things you know like we say you are disconnected
but actually you we think of it as being reconnected
You are limited by not having Internet and limitless
electricity. But actually, those limits give
you new freedom to explore other sides of yourself.
Like both of us are creative people. Soul is
an artist and I'm a writer and we both play music.
And for any kind of creative work, you really
have to have some inner peace and an outer peace
and have a place where you can concentrate. So
I think people will explore a lot about themselves,
discover a lot that is currently buried in the
noise of civilization. But it is a difficult
transition. We've experienced that personally.
And I did a meditation retreat once and I had
the experience the first day of almost going
crazy, just trying to sit in silence for several
hours. which is something like a dog or a cat
or an animal does all the time. But for me, it
was torturous. So I definitely can empathize
with those people. Also, we have been living
in this cabin for three, three and a half years.
And in the beginning, when we would come back
from the city from visiting our families or so,
it felt... so weird suddenly not having access
to internet all the time and sometimes I would
just look at my phone knowing that nothing was
going to be there you know I wouldn't receive
an email or anything but I just had like the
habit of doing that and the first two or three
days it felt weird I just didn't know what to
do with my time and I knew this is so silly like
I should just go and play music do something
and then I would just get into that mood and
start doing things and I realized wow the days
are so much longer now that I'm not wasting my
time you know internet is very useful we all
know that but we also know that we spend a lot
of time just doing nonsense And yeah, living
here, it really opened my eyes to that and what
I can achieve when I'm more centered and doing
things that I really love and that contributes
to my well -being. Yeah, you really do gain more
time when you limit the role that technologies
and screens play in your life. You know, maybe
you're going to live the same amount of time.
Let's say you live to be 80 years either way.
but the amount of time you have within a day
it's like suddenly you have many more hours that
would have just like you know we've all had the
experience of scrolling on social media and you
go into zombie mode and basically your your consciousness
kind of goes to a very low vibration and you
check your watch and suddenly three hours have
passed and you have no idea what happened um
so when you remove those experiences from the
equation Now you do have the time to write that
screenplay you always wanted to do or to learn
jujitsu or whatever it is the goal that you have
in your mind. A big part of that is just finding
the time and increasingly screens and technology.
We think of these as time saving machines, but
ironically, they really remove quite a lot of
time from our lives. To be fair, the story I
told in that meditation retreat, you could not
make a sound like you needed to keep silent.
And so, yeah, you could not play music or do
anything fun. What about socialization? I guess
both of you are introverts, because when I have
that discussion with extroverts, they're not
into it. because there's no one around, you know,
your closest neighbor is really far. So how do
you resolve that problem? Right. Well, I think,
you know, if you are a person who likes making
art and music and that sort of thing, it requires
being a little introverted. I don't really believe
in those terms of introvert and extrovert exactly
because of course we love our alone time and
we need it to make art and music and things.
But we also love being with people. It's just
you need balance in your life. And I think, of
course, some people are maybe more social than
others. But often it's like you were saying,
we can use kind of the noise of the world to
cover up maybe that peace within ourselves. And
for some people that might be watching a lot
of TV 10 hours a day. For other people, maybe
they require nonstop socialization, perhaps because
they love people, but also maybe out of fear
of what happens when you're alone by yourself,
you know, what thoughts will come to the surface.
So, you know, we enjoy going to parties and social
gatherings as much as anybody, but we don't want
to sacrifice the connection to our interior worlds,
you know? So you do have to drive further. um
to meet people for us it's a 20 minute drive
just to the closest town of about a thousand
people it's basically a gas station and a general
store and you know a diner which does not have
any vegan food so we don't go there um but and
then it's maybe 40 minute drive to a larger town
of of three thousand four thousand people so
yeah we get used to making fewer trips and seeing
fewer people but then when we are with those
people we really value the experience and we
of course love having folks come out to visit
us you know we all summer when the weather is
nice we have people coming to visit yeah i personally
when we go to visit his family in Kansas City
i have so many friends in Kansas City because
we used to live there for a few years and When
I'm there, I just try to see them all. Sometimes
my schedule is full just from friends' visits
and just catching up. And I love that. And then
when I'm here, it's more quiet. And I think that
that balance works for me. And we have our dogs,
too. Yeah, they are a great company. Dogs are
hilarious. Our dog, Reynard, who... You know
we wrote this book and so illustrated the book
called rain or the house wolf which normally
you read a book and it's all fiction and this
is a fictional story of this dog who runs away
from the city to. Seek out the real world nature
channel but rain art is actually a real dog he's
lying on his bed on the floor right next to us
as we speak and. Basically, this book seems like
it's a fictional account, but it's more or less
his real adventure on a metaphorical level. He
really did leave the city and find a place with
wild wolves. In the book, he has conversations
with the wolves and they all rhyme and it's all
beautiful. Of course, in the real world, we try
to keep Reynard away from the wolves because
they may not get along very well. It was important
in the book for them to be able to have this
conversation, you know, he's able to speak in
the book to a number of animals, which in real
life, the conversation might not go so well.
But in the fictional world, you know, it allows
us to explore a lot of important ideas and have
a good time. You talked about wolves, and I think
it's the one of those top things that stop people
from escaping the city. Fear of the wilderness.
And it's a it's a natural thing that the monastery
I talked about, I sent a friend there, you know,
I gave her that place as a recommendation and
she went there and she was able to stay longer
than a night. But she was scared like out of
her mind every night because she would hear all
of those sounds in the forest and she would think,
oh, it's a bear. It's definitely a bear and that
bear is coming to eat me or something. And it
sounds silly when you take some distance from
that moment and you think, no, there was no bear.
It's just my imagination. It is obviously irrational.
But what do you make of that fear we have of
the forest of nature, of the wilderness? I think
that... Well, the animals that live in this area,
they are not used to people. So we don't see
them coming to us like to get food or anything,
which I think that can create a problem. You
know, when bears come into your trash cans searching
for food and they don't get what they want, maybe
they can get aggressive. We don't have grizzly
bears here. So I'm not afraid of the black bears.
I know that they are more afraid of me than I
am of them. Yeah, we I Mean, I I'm not afraid
when I go walking in the woods by myself I I've
seen black bears here, but they just run off.
They are afraid of my dogs. They just run and
Wolves we haven't seen any wolves We've seen
them on the trail. We have seen them on the trail
camera, but not like clear in the day. They know
we are here and they don't want to come close
and I respect their lives. I don't want to mess
with their territory and you know I think they
feel the same. They don't want to come close.
They have nothing to gain from coming close to
us so we just... You know, yeah, yeah, I mean
most wild animals are really not very interested
in humans except for the fact that we leave trash
and food scraps and things tossed around everywhere
and that will will attract those animals we have
cougars here we have black bears we have wolves
and coyotes and We don't think of these creatures
as our enemies, you know, they're out there They
have their lives that they've evolved for hundreds
of thousands, millions of years to fulfill. And
those lives generally do not include eating humans.
Black bears, people are afraid of black bears.
Black bears are almost completely vegan. They're
mainly eating berries and leaves and roots and
things. And yeah, they'll eat a fish on occasion.
But these are not big carnivorous animals. They
just look... Scary from afar and you definitely
need to know some things like if you see a black
bear Especially if it's a mother with her cubs
you want to back away slowly You never want to
run from an animal because running will trigger
an animal maybe to want to chase But if you know
how to respond just backing away slowly backing
away slowly Until you can you know find some
shelter somewhere? That's even in a worst case
scenario most scenarios the moment an animal
sees you it's gonna be the one who wants to run
away. But like we live in this place where there's
loads of black bears and. They almost never have
any interaction with people the last time i heard
there was a visitor at the park. who got his
truck broken into by a black bear. And when the
story came out, it turns out that he was a honey
salesman. He was a traveling honey salesman.
So this sounds like a cartoon, but these creatures
are really not looking to get into problems unless
we are creating obvious problems for them to
get into. So for the person who is going on that
retreat out in the forest and they hear the sounds
out in the night, That is something so magical
that most people never get access to. So I would
find that a very valuable experience that we
should be very grateful to have. Well, I think
it's one of the symptoms of our alienation from
nature. We have been completely cut off from
the natural world. We don't see ourselves as
animals or as being part of that kingdom. irony
of being afraid of bears when we are the one,
you know, pushing them into extinction. We are
really the scary creatures here, not them. But
yeah, it's still in the culture. You know, in
podcasting, the king of podcasting is Joe Rogan,
and he doesn't miss a chance to talk about how
bears are these horrible murderous creatures,
like every time. And yeah, it gets tiring to
to see them as, you know, potential threats.
I think a big part of it also is fear of darkness,
you know, because for a lot of people as a child,
many of us such as myself, we had a fear of darkness,
a fear of the darkness in the closet underneath
the bed. or maybe our parents give us a nightlight
and then we're surrounded by street lights our
whole life and so we never really experience
darkness and the same as when you were a kid
underneath the bed you imagined something terrible
down there now when we're out in our cabin in
the woods it would be easy to imagine terrible
things out there in the night, except for we've
been here so long and we know that it isn't like
that. I take strolls in the middle of the night.
We'll go out stargazing or if there's the Northern
Lights, then we'll walk a mile down the road
to see Northern Lights in the middle of the night.
And it's like you were saying, it's the lack
of familiarity. with these situations the lack
of understanding which breeds fear and the the
darkness is a perfect example because we fear
the dark and that's why in the cities we light
it up because we think it's going to reduce crime
but in eliminating the darkness we're also eliminating
all the great things like the stars and the moon
and the northern lights and also just the sense
of peace that the darkness brings so i think
we could probably apply that logic to A lot of
these threats that we try to defeat, such as
wildlife, in getting rid of these so -called
threats, we're also losing that connection with
our deeper selves, which humans have had for
millions of years. That's what we're trying to
reestablish out here and what we're trying to
inspire others to do with the book and with some
other projects that we've got lined up. For us,
it's one thing to uh, do this as our own personal
quest, but we also feel compelled to want to
share it with others as you are doing with your
podcast and so many other folks are doing, because
that's really when we start to see change is
when people all start to communicate with one
another. Yeah. I would not compare your beautiful
project to my podcast. You know, I think yours
is, is just incredible. Um, okay. You mentioned
the Parker pines. Sorry, I'm forgetting the name.
What is the name of the place? porcupine mountains,
because the the native people name them that
because they are shaped, they seem to be shaped
like porcupines. They're not big rocky mountains,
you know, they're they're Midwestern mountains.
Yes. So the porcupines mountain and I noticed
in your online, you know, e commerce shop that
you sell lots of merch, you know, related to
that. um you know artwork that uh you've done
i think so and um there was there were many items
with uh the message i think protect porcupines
mountain so uh what are we protecting porcupines
mountain from exactly right so you know as we've
been uh crafting this book uh actually we started
the book before we moved here And when we moved
here in this beautiful place next to the largest
old -growth forest in Michigan, we've got old
-growth forest right outside our doorstep basically
next to Lake Superior, the largest, cleanest
of all freshwater lakes. The Porcupine Mountains
are also a very popular park. They were ranked
recently as the most beautiful state park in
the country and ranked again this year as Michigan's
favorite state park. So it seems like a place
that... would obviously be protected, and yet
there is currently a proposal for a large copper
mine to be developed right next to the old growth
forest and right next to Lake Superior. And the
concern there, I mean there are many concerns,
mines can be highly contaminating, especially
of fresh water, but it also requires clear -cutting
dozens of acres of forest, hundreds of acres
of forest, destroying wetlands and Storing quite
a lot of waste i wasn't familiar with all the
waste that is created from mining but for example
in this case the copper that they're mining would
only comprise less than two percent of what comes
out of the ground. So they would have to store
tens of millions of tons of waste containing
heavy metals like arsenic lead cadmium mercury.
all of this on site on topography that slopes
towards Lake Superior, we happen to be the only
people who live out here. We have no neighbors
within five miles. And so there, you know, a
lot of times when somebody speaks up for an ecological
cause, they also have a personal stake in the
game. And in many cases, the industries try to
put these contaminating operations in a place
where nobody is going to think about them. Like
factory farms, for example. We never see factory
farms advertised anywhere. You don't see billboards
for factory farms driving down the highway. You
don't see signs for factory farms. Most people
could not tell you where they are. And the same
thing with a contaminating operation like a mine.
Of course, it's determined by where the metals
are available, but it's also something that they
try to hide. They try to advertise. And so this
this company did not want anybody to know that
they were seeking to develop this mine right
next to one of the country's favorite state parks,
largest old growth forest in the Midwest. And
we decided to speak up about it. We started a
campaign called Protect the Porkies. The Porkies
are the kind of popular name for the Porcupine
Mountains. and we've had quite a lot of success
with that campaign. We managed to get a 50 million
dollar grant from the states blocked that was
going to be awarded to the mining company. We
helped organize a water walk in which members
of some of the local indigenous tribes here carried
water 30 miles on foot and poured it into the
lake in response to the proposed mine and You
know, all of this, it's so strange because in
the Reynard the House Wolf book, which we started
before we knew about the Porcupine Mountains,
before we knew about this proposed mine, it talks
about the threats that these wolves are facing
from all of the mining taking place in the mountains.
And I had never even really thought about mining.
It was just something that sort of came out in
the story. And then lo and behold, you know,
less than two years later, we find ourselves
in a situation where the wolves are really being
threatened by mining and it kind of felt like
something of a mystical moments where we had
like had this premonition about the direction
our lives are going to take in the fictional
world. So yes soul helps manage the social media
and she's done a lot of artwork and some of them
the merch that you've seen that's come from folks
in the community who have made posters and stickers
and all sorts of things. Last year we organized
an art contest and all these artists submitted
this beautiful artwork so we made it into postcards,
posters and now t -shirts and hoodies to be able
to support the campaign because Tom and I don't
get any salary to work on this campaign. Tom
has spent thousands of hours working on this
so this is the way that we support and we can
keep doing it but we feel very grateful because
there are so many people who care about the porcupine
mountains and this area about the wildlife they
have a strong connection because some people
have been coming to this park for their whole
lives and they know how precious it is, how beautiful,
unique, clean, and they want to protect it. So
we just started the website and then all these
people showed up. So we are very grateful. a
petition on change .org slash protect the porkies
where folks can read about the case or they can
go to protect the porkies dot com. But almost
a half million people have signed that petition
now. You know, change .org was so impressed that
they've reached out to us and had us give presentations
to their their company because, you know, we
did a lot of work, but it's also just a message
that resonates with people. And all along the
way, we try to involve arts. culture because
we've learned increasingly that you can't just
you can't just convince people with arguments
and statistics and facts you know so much of
what we do comes from how we feel and how we
feel is determined by art and music and storytelling
and personal relationships. So that's why we
try to get the arts involved. We're going to
launch a songwriting contest for the Protect
the Porkies campaign in just a few weeks. And
that's also, of course, why we put the book together
and as well as some other projects we're working
on. It's all about trying to interact on that
subconscious realm. You know, I think of it as
like We see a tree above the ground and we see
the trunk and the branches and we think, wow,
what a majestic tree. But without the roots that
are invisible underneath the surface, there would
be no tree. So those roots are all of the arts
and the music and the conversations, everything
that creates our feelings, which then leads to
real world action. It's the same in the vegan
movement. There's only so far we can go with
just convincing people. and showing images and
citing statistics, we really have to delve into
that deeper level. Of course, listeners will
find links to the shop and also the petition
in the episode's notes. And again, it is worth
visiting the shop. some beautiful items. I will
definitely shop, you know, some of that, uh,
protect them. The, the park is much also, there
are beautiful items, perfect for gifts, uh, such
as the, what is it called? The earrings, uh,
that you design, uh, sold beautiful. Uh, I will
certainly, you know, get some of that and, uh,
the postcards. Oh my gosh. I I'm still, you know,
I still use postcards for, you know, birthdays
and stuff like that. I think it adds, you know,
a personal touch. So, yeah, I was really happy
to find them on your website. Oh, we're excited
to know that people still use postcards. For
me, receiving a handwritten letter or postcard
from a friend is such a precious thing. And I
have, well, in the beginning of our relationship,
we We were in different countries. I was in Spain,
he was in the US and we would... write letters
and it was the most beautiful thing for me to
receive one and I kept doing that with friends
because I've been living in different countries
leaving my friends behind and I just love that
feeling of spending some time just with a piece
of paper writing your thoughts and your love
and everything and then for that person to receive
it eventually and if it has cool art in it with
a postcard it's even better. Exactly you know
you want something if you're creating a personalized
experience or gift for someone. You also want
that to be from an artist you know. You don't
want some generic postcard made in China or something
like that. I guess you want, you know, a deeper
level of personalization. And what you said about
Tom, about inspiring people and not, you know,
being stuck in the, I guess, right side of your
brain, which is more analytical and data driven.
It's something I try to convince people to consider
time and times again in my professional life,
you know, as a fundraiser, but also in this movement.
Okay, let's talk a little about veganism. And
I don't know if you watch some of those vegan
influencers on YouTube, but There is a trend
of vegans going in rural areas, you know, the
whole homestead thing. And after a while, always,
you know, it's a rule, they stop being vegan
and they become, you know, full -fledged farmers
with, with, you know, chickens and all of that.
And they always cite. because they always have
to talk about it, how they decided to leave veganism
behind. And they always talk about how isolating
it feels to be vegan in a community where everyone
is a farmer or something like that. So how do
you maintain a vegan lifestyle in the wilderness?
I don't think anybody became vegan to win a popularity
contest. I've been vegan for 21 years now. When
I was 15, I became vegan and I was one of only
two or three vegans in my high school and frequently
got picked on by people, teased. people would
ask all of the ridiculous questions like okay
well what if you were on a deserted island and
there was only a cow what would you you know
you get used to it's not that they were mean
they were just very curious and um you know teenagers
are always a little bit mean but so we've already
been kind of trained in following a way of life
that isn't practiced by all of our friends certainly
not by our families and It's something we're
doing because we believe in not because the community
is doing and not because everybody we know is
going to think how cool we are. So I would say
if somebody stops being vegan because. they're
surrounded surrounded by cattle ranchers or whatever,
then maybe they weren't being vegan for the right
reasons. It's like if we were surrounded by cannibals,
would we suddenly? Yeah, maybe I'll pick up a
human leg one day. No, there's something called
morality, which you don't just flick on and off
like a light switch. And, you know, I think a
lot of people in the vegan world really love
eating out, which is great to eat out there's
some delicious vegan restaurants but we've always
been folks who enjoy just like simple cooking
and cooking for ourselves both because it's cheaper
and because to be honest uh the meals that you
can make for yourself are very often much more
delicious than what you will get in a restaurant
but i think for some people if you move out to
the middle of a rural area and you don't have
a vegan friendly health food store next door
and you don't have 10 vegan restaurants and cafes
with vegan cupcakes it might feel like oh my
god what are we doing but you know we have a
we're fortunate because we have a health food
co -op about a 40 minute drive away which is
much further away than most folks in the city
but if we want to go get some soy meats or whatever
we can do that But also, you know, it's amazing
what you can find in Wal -Mart and in Super One
and any grocery store is going to have fruits
and vegetables and nuts and beans. Yeah, tofu.
So all the things, all the stables of a vegan
diet, you can get them in any grocery store in
the 21st century. it really doesn't matter where
you are. We've lived in Spain, we've lived in
South America, we've lived in Poland, many different
countries, and we have been vegan everywhere.
Even traveling. Sometimes people say, I was traveling
and I couldn't be vegan. I know that. I mean,
I don't want to judge people. They might have
their different reasons. But for us, we have
always kept being vegan, even when traveling,
even in very difficult situations, there were
always nuts and different things that we could
eat. But something cool about living here in
the forest and being, well, I don't know if it's
just being vegan, but just being curious. We
started learning about foraging and we have all
these like berries that we have been eating in
the summer. There are so many blackberries, raspberries,
blueberries everywhere. Also, we learned about
mushroom foraging and we learned to recognize
the ones that are very, very safe to eat. Like
we will not eat something that we don't know
what it is. But there is like chicken of the
woods, shrimp of the woods, oyster mushrooms.
It's funny, they all have names of animals. but
they taste delicious and we love to eat those
and we have been learning a lot and it's just
very fun to see everything that you can get from
the land and it's pure it's clean it's delicious
and very precious yeah they do name a lot of
these mushrooms these uh culinary mushrooms after
animals and chicken of the woods is very delicious
it does taste you know it has a rich kind of
meaty texture like a tofurkey like texture almost
and mushrooms are another case where people fear
what they don't understand there's actually very
few mushrooms that are deadly poisonous there's
quite a few that will upset your stomach but
once you learn the ones that are safe to eat
it's like having a grocery store you know, not
too far out of your backyard. So I would say
to those folks who move out to the country, if
you make a moral choice, you should stick with
your moral choice. And if you want to be a farmer,
great, be a vegan farmer. It's a thing that people
do grow those fruits and vegetables. For me,
it came as a surprise because I always thought
that if someone goes out of the city and connects
with nature, then this will be one more argument
for them to keep, you know, stay vegan or become
vegan. But, you know, you witness the opposite.
So it's very counterintuitive for me. Do you
feel like your experience of being close to nature
has deepened your commitment to animals? Yes,
very much so. You know, like, for me personally,
I think for all of us, we became vegan because
we already felt a connection with animals. And
for many of us and for myself, it was my connection
with my pets, you know, my dogs, my cats. And
I thought, well, if I wouldn't kill and exploit
and eat those animals, then why would I eat any
animal? But Very often we think about these domesticated
animals and these so -called farm animals like
pigs and chickens and cows, but we don't spend
so much time thinking about all of the animals
and not just animals, but plants and mushrooms.
I think all of nature has a degree of sentience
and consciousness and all of these incredible
life forms that are existing out there in the
world and they all exist in relation to one another.
You know, like a wolf would be nothing without
the river and without the trees and without the
deer and without the mushrooms and the mosses.
Ecosystems are all about relationality. And that's
why it is so disturbing the way that the human
civilization is just sort of steamrolling over
all of this infinite complexity of nature, which
has been evolving for billions of years. You
know, we steamroll it over like we're shaking
an etch a sketch, just to have a blank slate
and then put up a mine or a Walmart or a new
highway or whatever. And animals are definitely
the most charismatic. um you know representatives
of nature like any ecological campaign often
will highlight a panda bear or a fox or you know
some charismatic animal but the animals are really
the the transition into having an empathy also
for the whole ecosystem because everything is
dependent on everything else and humans of course
are a part of that um but you know i guess to
answer your question More directly, of course,
with my dogs, I have a very personal relationship
with them. But you can you can care about and
honor animals that you never have to see personally,
like we know that these wolves are out there.
We've seen them on the trail camera. We haven't
ever. met them up close. We know that there is
cougars out there, that there are weasels and
all kinds of frogs and newts and amazing insects.
And we don't have to have them as close to us
as we have our pets in order to respect them
and in order to want them to have happiness and
freedom. Yes, and I agree with what you said
about you know, developing a connection first
with your pets. This was my case. You know, I
had a duck growing up. It's a, it's a weird story,
but, and you know, he was my friend, that duck
and there were cats too, stray cats and those
experiences of having those animals near me and
developing relationships with them. is really
what drove me to become vegan. I always say I
became vegan out of love for animals, not because
I watched some horrendous footage. I also really
appreciate the nugget of insight that you gave
about the minds and how this was mentioned in
the book in a prophetic way, which really feels
like this book was meant to be. So how did it
start, you know? Did you wake up one day and
thought, OK, we need now to create an art book?
I don't remember the exact moment when we decided
we wanted to create a children's book. I just
remember that I made an illustration of Reynard.
I had just acquired an iPad and I was testing
it and I made this illustration of him. And we
both really liked that illustration. At some
point we decided it would be cool to make this
story and we thought we would make a children's
book and it would have around 25 illustrations
and Tom wrote the story. We all thought it was
really cute and funny and sweet. But then we
realized that we had the opportunity to create
something really special and the story became
longer. rhymed, he transformed it into a poem.
And we decided that it was worth it to illustrate
every page. So now we have 160 illustrations
for our graphic novel. It's not a children's
book anymore. It's for really everybody who would
like to enjoy this story. Yeah, it started as
a children's book, as Saul said, and then we
decided graphic novel. really shows that it can
appeal to anybody because I mean, for me, what
we made is it would have been my favorite book
if I was 10 years old or 12 years old. But it
would also, I think, be a great art book, a great
story for anybody to enjoy. We all have an inner
child within us. We all love awesome art. And
we are also hoping to convince folks that poetry
can be fun. The whole thing rhymes, as Sol said.
And, you know, you were talking about how your
connection with animals, with your pets of the
duck and these stray cats led to you being vegan.
And that is part of our secret intention with
this book. We didn't want to make a book called
Reynard, The Awesome Vegan Dog, because then
a lot of people would not even consider. opening
it, right? People hear that word and they tune
out and they say, oh, I've already heard about
that on Joe Rogan. So, you know, not even going
to think about it. But there's no mention of
veganism in Reynard the house wolf. Although
Reynard, our real dog is fully vegan as well
as her other dog Shanti. However, in his travels
in this book. He meets all of these animals,
like a squirrel trying to cross the road, like
a seal who's battling plastic bags, a black -footed
ferret who is separated from another ferret by
habitat fragmentation, these wolves. And to all
of these animals, he gives them names. They don't
have names. And he finds that strange. Why is
it that I, as a dog, have this name, but none
of you have names? And some of the animals don't
really understand being named, and they don't
want it. Like, the crow doesn't want a name.
He says, well, I limit myself with a name when
I can be infinite. But one of the animals that
he meets is this pig, pig number 3285, which
jumps out the back of a factory farm truck on
the way to the slaughterhouse. Reynard becomes
best friends with this pig and he says number
3285 is a terrible name and he renames the pig
Patrick and Patrick reflects at great length
on his experience of living in darkness. crammed
together with all these other pigs. He doesn't
have a word for sky or ground or trees or clouds.
He's asking Reynard, you know, what are all these
things around us? But Patrick, the same as Reynard,
has had this dream about reconnecting with his
inner warthog out there in the forest and discovering
all of this stuff that was denied to him on the
factory farm. So without having to talk about.
factory farming directly without having to talk
about veganism. We are hoping that Reynard acts
as a transitionary character to help readers
discover the greater empathy that they have,
not just for their pets, but for farm animals,
for wild animals and for the greater natural
world. I agree with you so much. The number of
children's book made by vegans that are too on
the nose are just, you know, so because then
what you want to create is really a children's
book for children, vegan children, not really,
you know, the public at large. Yeah, so I really
love the idea. You're just making me fall in
love again with this book. And I'm really looking
forward to getting the book in my hands. Do you
think there is such a thing as vegan art? Because
I made an episode about the Art of Compassion
project. Do you know about these people? No,
but sounds very interesting. Yes, they are a
group, there's a term for it, but they're a group
of artists from around the world who are all
vegans. And they create vegan art. So usually
it is from the point of view of animals or depicting,
you know, animal cruelty. And they sell that
art and, you know, they use the profits to help
vegan organizations or sanctuaries, things like
that. But do you think there is such a thing
as vegan art? Because we see depiction of animals
from non vegans. And, you know, from my point
of view, I see a difference. I really see two
dimensional creatures when it's a non vegan depiction.
But with vegans, there is more depth to the animal.
And that's just one example I could give. But
have you had that realization? Yeah, I think
that is a great reflection that you've had about
the depth that vegans will give to animals. Animals
will become characters in a vegan story or in
a vegan work, as opposed to just objects. You
know, I think maybe for a lot of these non -vegan
creators, they've spent their whole lives seeing
animals as objects, you know, even their pets
potentially. are kind of like a piece of furniture,
maybe with a bit of personality. But like I look
at Reynard and any of our pets that we've had
and I see them, I see the light in their eyes,
I see them as having a soul, the same as me and
you. And I don't mean the word soul in any like
specific religious sense, but just in the idea
that we all have an interior world and we all
have thoughts and dreams and we all want freedom
and health and happiness and any vegan who's
had such a revelation that they've changed their
diet, they've changed how they spend their money,
they've changed the clothing they wear. For most
people, you vote once every four years, and then
the rest of the time, you can tune out. But a
vegan, every single day, we are taking conscious
political action to make the world a better place,
not just for ourselves, but for all of these
other creatures that we share the world with.
So if you've had that kind of inner realization,
it's going to change the stories that you tell.
It's going to change the art and the music that
you make. So 100%, I think, you know, is it is
there such a thing as vegan art or not vegan
art? It's kind of a, you know, a semantic discussion.
But I think the intention there certainly will
be a different intention. Is the creator seeing
an animal as an object or a subject? But also
there's the aspect of the materials, which for
a long time I hadn't thought about it, but then
I researched and in watercolors or in acrylic
paints, oil paints, you can have paints that
have bones from animals or there are glues that
have parts of animals, you know, from rabbits
or fish and I hadn't really thought about that
until I made the conscious decision of just trying
to use vegan materials only, so I had to switch
my brushes so that they would be all synthetic
and all my paints would be vegan, my paper, my
glues, everything, and I'm very happy that I
did that. I made that conscious choice and I
changed everything because now from a material
aspect, my art is vegan. That's a really good
point. Yes, I think maybe vegan art is a bad
way to represent it. Maybe it's just art that
is closer to reality. I was watching recently
an episode of The Kingdom of David. So weird
thing to watch for me, but It's an Amazon Prime
TV series and it's about, you know, the biblical
story of how the kingdom of David was established.
And at some point they needed to make a sacrifice
for God and they presented it as something very
wholesome. So an animal sacrifice. And I was
just looking at it, you know, watching the episode
thinking, are they going to show? the poor little
lamb getting slaughtered and the visuals of it.
How are they going to frame it? And of course
they did not. They did not show the scene of
the slaughter. They just showed the before and
after moment. And by doing that, they could camouflage
the whole thing as something very wholesome.
But in there, in hitting that visual portrait,
there is a confession that people would not appreciate
to see a lamb getting slaughtered, that there
is something inherently cruel and shocking and
violent to watching something like that. So when
I see, you know, vegans not shying away, to represent
animal cruelty. That's also something, you know,
closer to reality, but I don't see that so much
from non -vegan artists. Yeah. Yeah, very much
so. I mean, for almost all of the movies and
series that are out there, you know, all of the
TV shows, it's all about humans. Talking to other
humans killing other humans having relationships
with other humans doing crimes against humans
You almost never even see an animal in any movie
or in any TV show Except as a secondary kind
of object in the background or whatever. Of course,
there are exceptions. There are some great Stories
out there which are all about animals but in
general in our storytelling still It's all about
humans, which is interesting because humans are
less than 1 % of 1 % of 1 % of all of the life
forms out there You know as soon as we start
opening the door to all of these other Creatures
of these other life forms. There are so many
more stories We can tell there's so many so much
more that we can learn and explore so it It's
really is a big limitation in addition to being
dishonest, you know to not showing that lamb
being sacrificed. It's also a big limitation
in not showing the role that animals play in
culture and the role that animals play in the
wilderness. If art is meant to give us the full
story of existence, then it should teach us something
about what's happening in the forest, even when
humans aren't out there. It should teach us about
what's happening on the factory farm, even if
there's no cameras there. It should teach us
about what was happening in ancient Egypt and
in ancient Israel and all of these places to
the animals. We don't hear about the animals
very much. So art definitely needs to shed a
light on all of these aspects that so far storytelling
has kept hidden. I'm very grateful that there
are artists who are exploring these topics and
showing a very hard reality to people. I tried
to make a collection of paintings some years
ago showing the pollution of the oceans and how
all these animals were getting entangled in plastic
bags and fish factory farms and all of that and
it really drained me so much. I really got into
a very deep sadness that I hadn't experienced
before. And I had been vegan for a long time
when I started that. That was like six years
ago or so. I couldn't continue with that series
because it was too much for me. But in a book
like this one, Rainer the House Wolf, which is
still like a vegan book and we're showing hard
parts too, like when Rainer meets Patrick, he
had just jumped from this truck on its way to
the slaughterhouse. And there is an illustration
where you can see the eyes of Patrick's friends
being behind in the truck. There is this moment
when finally Patrick and Rainer reach the nature
channel, which is what they are seeking, the
real nature. They think it's the nature channel.
they see this beautiful landscape and I painted
them where Patrick has a tear falling on his
side and when I look at that illustration it
makes me want to cry still in a very beautiful
way because it's like these characters they are
finally finding what they wanted to see what
they dreamed about. And I think that that emotion
can be transmitted to other people who are going
to see this illustration and can be very, very
powerful and maybe change the way they think.
Yeah. And I think one sort of disadvantage that
a lot of vegan outreach has is that people find
it a very unpleasant topic. And there's so many
unpleasant things out there in the world. You
turn on the news and it's just one terrible thing
after another. And we've been doing street outreach
when we were in Kansas City. We did street outreach
where we were just showing people directly images
of factory farms. And some people were very grateful
to see it, but there are other people who will
just turn off immediately because they don't
want to think about anything unpleasant. So I
think there also need to be positive vegan works.
Like this book, it explores some difficult subjects,
but it's really just a fun dog adventure story
at its heart. And a child can read it or a teenager
or whoever and mainly have a good time at the
same time as we're hoping they're going to reflect
on some deeper issues as well. So I think we
need to also find space in the vegan movement
for a lot of humor and positivity. It's like
you said, you became vegan out of love, not out
of just seeing something terrible, right? So
it's really that love that we have to inspire.
And, and I, I love hearing about Patrick. I,
uh, you know, he's, uh, he's actually the, the,
uh, the, the logo of this podcast. You know,
it's a, it's a big, uh, escaping as a slaughter,
uh, a truck, uh, uh, distant to a slaughterhouse.
Um, so that imagery is, is poignant for me. At
the same time, and I told this story before,
when I hired an artist, his name is Frank to
design the logo for this podcast, and he presented
the pig, I felt kind of disgusted. And, you know,
I was conditioned all my life to think of pigs
as being, you know, this dirty creature that
does not deserve to be on any visual art project
or anything of worth. And that's the very feeling
of disgust I had was the reason why I selected
that image. Do you think there is such a thing
as an ugly animal, a disgusting animal versus
a beautiful animal? Like dogs are the universally
beloved animals and people see dogs and they
smile. Why don't we smile when we see a pig?
Well, pigs have such big personalities, you know,
like when you get to meet these animals, even
like chickens and goats, you see that they all
shine. They have the things they like, the things
they don't like. naughty things they like to
do just as dogs as cats and I'm very grateful
that I got the opportunity to work with these
animals in different farms or visiting sanctuaries
and see them and also my mom used to have a little
farm with ducks chickens everything and I would
enjoy feeding them being with them but there
are some creatures like for example insects that
some people might be freaked out by and I can
understand like for example with cockroaches
they will freak me out if I see them walking
really fast towards me but I wouldn't want to
kill them like I understand that all these animals
have a the right to live and to be happy and
do what they want to do. I understand the feeling
of some people because they might never have
connected with them in a different way. They
might never have realized that these creatures
have their lives. They're things that they like
to do. For example, just going back to the book
again, there are different animals, different
beetles and insects that sing, they are sharing
these little poems. And I think it's really cute
and funny. They have their perspectives and things
to say in the story. And it's in a way of a short
poem. Yeah, there's a snail on the book as well.
There's, you know, of course, people Many people
might see pigs as filthy animals, but what about
slugs? How many people out there are really telling
the slugs story? There's animals that we feel
even more disgust for than pigs. There are people
who have pigs as pets, but most people, if they
see a slug or they see a spider or something,
they want it to go away as fast as possible.
look at any animal and you see that it has eyes
and it has a nose and it has ears you know they
might come in a different form from our eyes
ears nose mouth then it means that they also
have a heart and they also have lungs and they
if they share all of these features with us then
why wouldn't they have consciousness why wouldn't
they have a spirit and a soul and an imagination
it doesn't make sense for them to share absolutely
everything with humans except for these interior
components. So no, I don't think there's such
thing as an ugly animal. I think the ugliness
is in the human eye. The ugliness is in the way
that we have been indoctrinated into seeing some
animals as beautiful, other animals as food,
other animals as just scary or filthy or disgusting.
You know, like in the United States and in many
countries, the cow is something that people eat
in India. The cow is is very sacred and they
still get food from the cow through milking and
through cheese. And, you know, there's a lot
to say about India's relationship with cattle.
But it just goes to show that how we feel about
animals is very culturally, culturally constructed.
It isn't really based in reality. When you actually
look at reality, you see that all animals want
to live. All animals want to escape pain. That's
just scientific fact. That's why those animals
have survived evolution or intelligent design,
however you want to think about it. That's why
animals are still here after millions of years
is because they want to be here. And it's so
smart to take Reynard, who is the dog, this beloved,
universally beloved creature and in a way use
him to introduce the reader to all of the other
less beloved animals but who deserve that that
kind of love so a really good call from you and
really smart move and I guess my other hope about
this book is to see to see it being adapted to
maybe something like an animation or because
I love to do that. I mean, I see the potential
for that. It sounds like a wonderful thing that
children would like to see to watch on Amazon
primers or Netflix or something that would be
wonderful. It will be cool. We'll start with
trying to sell a few hundred copies, but we've
also imagined such things, you know, because
Raynard, everybody loves their dog. We do think
Raynard is particularly awesome and charismatic.
And people often stop him in the street and compliment
him on his beauty. So I think, you know, children
would love to see more of his adventures. And
whether or not there is a cartoon at any point
or an animation, I'm sure there will be a Raynard
sequel at some point. Well, our dog Raynard has...
at least two or three songs that we have composed
for him. Yeah, he's inspired quite a lot. Yeah,
but this this book also feels really musical,
you know, the way it's meant it's meant to be
read out loud. And when everything rhymes, it
has this rhythm and this music in it. Some scenes
are just like rap scenes, you know, so I see
the potential for creating something really musical
with it. Yes, definitely. That's another layer
of awesomeness to it. And you do have a special
relationship with that dog because, you know,
if I think about the birds I care for and my
cats, I would not be inspired to compose a song
for my cat, like never in a million years, or
write a book about her. Like she's a, you know,
I love her. I truly do, but... Not to that point
Yeah, well the songs that I have written about
Reynard have been when we have been very far
away from him You know, so it's like when you're
missing somebody that's when you feel inspired
if you were very far from your cat You might
just pick up the guitar and start singing Okay,
now I understand the context Yeah, they are love
songs for Reynard My cat is a special case, too.
You know, there are more difficult animals out
there to love. You talked about how it's a vegan
dog. Is it possible to have a vegan dog? Well,
we think it is because he's alive and well and
thriving. And sometimes he has too much energy
for us. Yeah. Raynard is extremely energetic.
And when we first were looking into whether you
could raise a vegan dog, we discovered a dog
called Bramble. Bramble the vegan dog, which
was a border collie who was in the Guinness Book
of World Records for being the longest lived
dog ever. Bramble the vegan dog lived to 25 years
of age. And it wasn't just a, you know, sort
of freak incident because this woman's other
dogs, they were also 19, 20, 21 years of age.
All of them were living basically off of stir
-fry, you know, off of rice and lentils and some
soy protein and quite a lot of veggies. She would
feed them just one time a day. Her name is Anne
Heritage. And that was, you know, decades ago.
Now there is a thriving industry where you can
get vegan kibble for your dog. And we give our
dogs some vegan kibble because we know that it
has the supplementation that they need. But we
also cook them just a basic rice, lintel, and
we save all of our vegetable scraps. When you're
making food for yourself and you're chopping
up carrots and broccoli, et cetera, and there
are parts that get tossed out, we cook those
into the food for our animals so that those nutrients
don't go to waste and they contribute to their
health. And I think life is a lot more flexible
than we give it credit for. Just look at humans.
There are humans that live off of all meats,
like the Inuits. And then there are humans, such
as vegans, who live off of all plants. There
are bears that eat a lot of meat. You've got
the panda bear, which evolved to only eat plants.
So there is this flexibility in nature. And even
wolves, which we think of as carnivores, Actually,
wolves will eat quite a lot of plants when they're
out just running in the forest. They will forage.
They will chew on leaves and eat grass. And dogs
especially have been domesticated for tens of
thousands of years to have a much more flexible
diet. So, you know, I think a lot of people have
theories about can a dog be vegan. More important
than theories are results. When you've got a
dog who was in the Guinness Book of World Record,
and most people's dogs are living to be 10 or
12 years of age, if that, and this dog lived
to be twice that length, those results are much
more important than any preconceptions a person
might have. So we have seen no shortage of energy.
We have seen no health problems. Raynard's been
vegan for several years now and he has beautiful
fur and loads of energy and clean teeth. We adopted
another dog whose name is Shanti. and she originally
was not vegan and we noticed that she smelled
pretty bad she had very bad breath yeah very
strong odor and just a few months after being
on a vegan diet a whole foods vegan diet she
now smells much much better so you can do it
for your own sake as well if you want to have
a dog that doesn't smell bad but what a coincidence
because i uh you know after setting my mind to
interviewing you I discovered the story of an
heritage and I wanted to interview her as well.
And she followed me back on Instagram. So to
be continued. But I think I would love to get
her on the podcast as well and talk about her
dog. Yeah. I mean, when she did it, she was kind
of a pioneer. And now there are thousands and
thousands of people raising dogs on a vegan diet.
So it can definitely be done. Yes. And if it,
you know, makes them smell better, I mean, I
just, I have to say, you know, the smell of dogs,
you know, it's not my favorite thing in the world,
but I did notice that some dogs, you know, smell
of the same, you know, race smell have different
smells. And I did wonder, you know, Does it have
to do with their lifestyle or maybe diet? So,
yeah, it's a question I will ask her as well.
Yeah. Well, you know, the same as people, if
somebody is eating a lot of animals, then they
have a highly acidic diet and it will make them
smell to my nose much worse. Whereas vegans,
you know, not trying to toot our own horn here,
but I do think vegans smell better, taste better,
look better. just all around, you know, your
body is going to show that you're living a cleaner
life. I agree. Yeah, I did notice that as well.
So, Tom, Sol, thank you so much for having answered
my questions. What a pleasant conversation I've
had and what a wonderful project you've given
birth to. I really wish you the success and hopefully
an animation of that animation adaptation of
the book. Did you want to add something before
we stop the recording? I think it's been a wonderful
conversation and we're very grateful for your
invitation and it's been a pleasure speaking
with you today. So yeah, we look forward to sharing
Reynard's story and his teachings with readers
of all ages. And we hope that everyone feels
inspired also to find ways to share whatever
they are feeling internally. How do you share
that with others? For us, it was in making this
book. For somebody else, it might be in making
a blog post or a podcast or writing a postcard
or... playing music on the street or who knows
what form it might come in. Everybody has different
skills and different gifts, but the key is to
want to share with the world. Thank you everyone
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage
more people to take action. Again, thank you
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode.