WEBVTT

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Welcome to The Vegan Report. My name is Ryan,

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and a week ago, I came across the Kickstarter

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campaign of a vegan couple named Tom and Saul

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to launch their fantastic illustrated book called

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Reynard the House Wolf, which is all about escaping

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the city, reconnecting with nature, and growing

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curious, compassionate, and loving towards our

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fellow animals. The message behind this project,

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its philosophy, and just how thoughtful and talented

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Tom and Saul are compelled me to support their

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Kickstarter campaign and invite them on the show

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for an incredible conversation on their journey

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out of the city and the power of their art. But

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before that, let me play a segment of their Kickstarter

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campaign trailer. Hopefully this will inspire

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you to support them Enjoy! This book is perfect

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for kids who are too old for typical children's

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books and are in need of something to challenge,

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excite and inspire them But really, we've made

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a work that we hope will help readers of all

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ages to connect with our deeper nature. It certainly

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helped us. During the four years we spent crafting

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this work, our real life mirrored Raynard's adventure

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as we relocated from our city life to life in

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our off -grid cabin on the shore of Lake Superior,

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where Raynard has finally found the forests of

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his dreams. In the end, Reynard is a metaphor

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for all of us. At once a wolf and a dog. With

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two paws in the forest. Two paws in the city.

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And a heart that won't be tamed. So, hi Tom and

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Saul. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much

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for being here. Well, thank you for having us.

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We're really looking forward to talking with

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you. Yeah, thank you so much. Okay, you're here

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today because I've always had this idea that

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the city has something evil to it and that it

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was always worth it to go out of the city and

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reconnect with nature but you took it like a

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step further than what I was thinking you know

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which is living in the suburbs or maybe a smaller

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town you actually live in the wilderness and

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I want to talk about this to start the conversation.

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So what motivated you to make that decision and

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how was it? Yeah, well, like you say, a lot of

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people maybe have the feeling that living in

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the middle of the city, surrounded by traffic

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and light pollution and nonstop noise and, you

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know, all of these factors which didn't exist

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for the hundreds of thousands of years that humans

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have evolved in freedom of nature, that does

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have a jarring effect on people, whether we know

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it or not. And increasingly, Sol and I were feeling

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that. And we also had just acquired a beautiful

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border collie puppy named Reynard. And when you

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get a dog, it's kind of like having a child.

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You stop thinking about only yourself, but what

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is the kind of life that I want my dog to have?

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And we were really excited about him being able

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to run around freely and kind of live the life

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of his dreams. So I guess that's kind of what

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started our quest to find a piece of property.

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We wanted to be as close to a... a large forest,

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ideally an old -growth forest, protected forest,

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a place that was so wild that there were actually

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wolves in it. We wanted to be near water. We

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had kind of this fantasy, which seemed impossible

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to achieve. But lo and behold, now we live in

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an off -grid cabin right next to the Porcupine

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Mountains in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,

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which is the largest old -growth forest in Michigan.

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And we live on the shore of Lake Superior, which

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is the largest freshwater lake on Earth. And

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Reynard really has found the land of his dreams

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now, and so have we. And of course, it has its

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difficulties. We live off -grid and we don't

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have electricity or running water. But the difficulties

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are really part of the learning experience. Also,

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Tom and I, since we met, we have been traveling

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to many countries and we have volunteered for

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different projects, working in farms. So we had

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already experienced being off grid and in nature

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with these programs. We always had like other

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people with us. This is the first time we're

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just by ourselves, but We enjoyed being in nature

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and not having the internet connection all the

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time, you know, so we would enjoy playing music,

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writing, walking in the forest or just being

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in silence. And I think that that experience

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really opened our eyes to what our life could

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be if we moved to the countryside or to the forest.

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Yeah, like a few years ago, we did a backpacking

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trip in India and we spent six months with no

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cell phone, no laptop, no gadgets of any kind.

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So you can imagine the difficulty of traveling

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in a foreign country with no connection. But

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it led to so much connection with ourselves,

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you know, like when you have no distractions.

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And so that's kind of what we were looking for

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also is a place where we were limited by how

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much Internet we can have. That's one of the

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main challenges in the modern world is being

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able to focus your mind and not get distracted

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by stuff on the internet. So now we have some

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solar power. And for example, as we're giving

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this podcast with you, the solar power is counting

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down 98%, 95%, 92%. So we've got plenty of time,

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but we do have to think about when we're just

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cruising on the internet later. how much time

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are we gonna spend, you know, checking Instagram

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or Facebook, because then maybe we can't use

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the coffee grinders tomorrow. Is it worth it

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to watch the cat videos right now? When I hear

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you talk about that way of life, it just brings

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me so much joy. But I know for a fact that for

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most people that would be hell. And why do I

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know that? Well, I went to a meditation retreat,

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um, and it was, you know, in the middle of nowhere

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and no internet, nothing. And you were in a,

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in this cabin middle of the woods. And I felt

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so good. Uh, I spent a week in that cabin and

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it was wonderful. What a wonderful time I had.

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Um, and then at the end of the retreat, I was

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talking to one of the monks there. So it was

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a monastery and he said, you know, it's, uh,

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it's a great thing you've done because, um, most

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people quit after day one, actually, they don't

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go beyond, you know, the, uh, the night. And

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I thought, Oh, that's, that's weird. Why? Why

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is that? And He said, I don't know, maybe it's

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just there for the first time in a while, they're

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just alone with their thoughts. And it's just

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a hard, a hard experience for them. So I guess

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what do you make of the people who would feel

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like this is torture, you know, living disconnected

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and away from everything. yeah well there is

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a transition period of course if you go from

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high stimulus living to suddenly being without

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a connection in the middle of the forest the

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first two or three days can be a strange and

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restless experience but it's all about how you

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frame things you know like we say you are disconnected

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but actually you we think of it as being reconnected

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You are limited by not having Internet and limitless

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electricity. But actually, those limits give

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you new freedom to explore other sides of yourself.

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Like both of us are creative people. Soul is

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an artist and I'm a writer and we both play music.

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And for any kind of creative work, you really

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have to have some inner peace and an outer peace

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and have a place where you can concentrate. So

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I think people will explore a lot about themselves,

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discover a lot that is currently buried in the

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noise of civilization. But it is a difficult

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transition. We've experienced that personally.

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And I did a meditation retreat once and I had

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the experience the first day of almost going

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crazy, just trying to sit in silence for several

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hours. which is something like a dog or a cat

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or an animal does all the time. But for me, it

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was torturous. So I definitely can empathize

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with those people. Also, we have been living

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in this cabin for three, three and a half years.

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And in the beginning, when we would come back

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from the city from visiting our families or so,

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it felt... so weird suddenly not having access

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to internet all the time and sometimes I would

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just look at my phone knowing that nothing was

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going to be there you know I wouldn't receive

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an email or anything but I just had like the

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habit of doing that and the first two or three

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days it felt weird I just didn't know what to

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do with my time and I knew this is so silly like

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I should just go and play music do something

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and then I would just get into that mood and

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start doing things and I realized wow the days

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are so much longer now that I'm not wasting my

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time you know internet is very useful we all

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know that but we also know that we spend a lot

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of time just doing nonsense And yeah, living

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here, it really opened my eyes to that and what

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I can achieve when I'm more centered and doing

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things that I really love and that contributes

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to my well -being. Yeah, you really do gain more

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time when you limit the role that technologies

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and screens play in your life. You know, maybe

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you're going to live the same amount of time.

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Let's say you live to be 80 years either way.

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but the amount of time you have within a day

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it's like suddenly you have many more hours that

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would have just like you know we've all had the

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experience of scrolling on social media and you

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go into zombie mode and basically your your consciousness

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kind of goes to a very low vibration and you

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check your watch and suddenly three hours have

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passed and you have no idea what happened um

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so when you remove those experiences from the

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equation Now you do have the time to write that

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screenplay you always wanted to do or to learn

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jujitsu or whatever it is the goal that you have

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in your mind. A big part of that is just finding

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the time and increasingly screens and technology.

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We think of these as time saving machines, but

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ironically, they really remove quite a lot of

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time from our lives. To be fair, the story I

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told in that meditation retreat, you could not

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make a sound like you needed to keep silent.

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And so, yeah, you could not play music or do

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anything fun. What about socialization? I guess

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both of you are introverts, because when I have

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that discussion with extroverts, they're not

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into it. because there's no one around, you know,

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your closest neighbor is really far. So how do

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you resolve that problem? Right. Well, I think,

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you know, if you are a person who likes making

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art and music and that sort of thing, it requires

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being a little introverted. I don't really believe

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in those terms of introvert and extrovert exactly

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because of course we love our alone time and

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we need it to make art and music and things.

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But we also love being with people. It's just

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you need balance in your life. And I think, of

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course, some people are maybe more social than

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others. But often it's like you were saying,

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we can use kind of the noise of the world to

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cover up maybe that peace within ourselves. And

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for some people that might be watching a lot

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of TV 10 hours a day. For other people, maybe

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they require nonstop socialization, perhaps because

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they love people, but also maybe out of fear

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of what happens when you're alone by yourself,

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you know, what thoughts will come to the surface.

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So, you know, we enjoy going to parties and social

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gatherings as much as anybody, but we don't want

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to sacrifice the connection to our interior worlds,

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you know? So you do have to drive further. um

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to meet people for us it's a 20 minute drive

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just to the closest town of about a thousand

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people it's basically a gas station and a general

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store and you know a diner which does not have

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any vegan food so we don't go there um but and

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then it's maybe 40 minute drive to a larger town

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of of three thousand four thousand people so

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yeah we get used to making fewer trips and seeing

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fewer people but then when we are with those

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people we really value the experience and we

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of course love having folks come out to visit

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us you know we all summer when the weather is

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nice we have people coming to visit yeah i personally

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when we go to visit his family in Kansas City

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i have so many friends in Kansas City because

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we used to live there for a few years and When

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I'm there, I just try to see them all. Sometimes

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my schedule is full just from friends' visits

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and just catching up. And I love that. And then

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when I'm here, it's more quiet. And I think that

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that balance works for me. And we have our dogs,

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too. Yeah, they are a great company. Dogs are

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hilarious. Our dog, Reynard, who... You know

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we wrote this book and so illustrated the book

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called rain or the house wolf which normally

00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:10.379
you read a book and it's all fiction and this

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is a fictional story of this dog who runs away

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from the city to. Seek out the real world nature

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channel but rain art is actually a real dog he's

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lying on his bed on the floor right next to us

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as we speak and. Basically, this book seems like

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it's a fictional account, but it's more or less

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his real adventure on a metaphorical level. He

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really did leave the city and find a place with

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wild wolves. In the book, he has conversations

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with the wolves and they all rhyme and it's all

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beautiful. Of course, in the real world, we try

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to keep Reynard away from the wolves because

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they may not get along very well. It was important

00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:53.330
in the book for them to be able to have this

00:15:53.330 --> 00:15:55.710
conversation, you know, he's able to speak in

00:15:55.710 --> 00:15:58.090
the book to a number of animals, which in real

00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:00.070
life, the conversation might not go so well.

00:16:00.070 --> 00:16:02.389
But in the fictional world, you know, it allows

00:16:02.389 --> 00:16:05.009
us to explore a lot of important ideas and have

00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:08.909
a good time. You talked about wolves, and I think

00:16:08.909 --> 00:16:12.769
it's the one of those top things that stop people

00:16:12.769 --> 00:16:17.350
from escaping the city. Fear of the wilderness.

00:16:18.129 --> 00:16:22.610
And it's a it's a natural thing that the monastery

00:16:22.610 --> 00:16:25.309
I talked about, I sent a friend there, you know,

00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:28.750
I gave her that place as a recommendation and

00:16:28.750 --> 00:16:32.789
she went there and she was able to stay longer

00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:38.629
than a night. But she was scared like out of

00:16:38.629 --> 00:16:41.629
her mind every night because she would hear all

00:16:41.629 --> 00:16:44.210
of those sounds in the forest and she would think,

00:16:44.210 --> 00:16:47.710
oh, it's a bear. It's definitely a bear and that

00:16:47.710 --> 00:16:51.730
bear is coming to eat me or something. And it

00:16:51.730 --> 00:16:56.370
sounds silly when you take some distance from

00:16:56.370 --> 00:17:00.970
that moment and you think, no, there was no bear.

00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:05.670
It's just my imagination. It is obviously irrational.

00:17:06.430 --> 00:17:10.049
But what do you make of that fear we have of

00:17:10.049 --> 00:17:13.589
the forest of nature, of the wilderness? I think

00:17:13.589 --> 00:17:17.140
that... Well, the animals that live in this area,

00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:19.799
they are not used to people. So we don't see

00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.440
them coming to us like to get food or anything,

00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.359
which I think that can create a problem. You

00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.420
know, when bears come into your trash cans searching

00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:31.339
for food and they don't get what they want, maybe

00:17:31.339 --> 00:17:34.599
they can get aggressive. We don't have grizzly

00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.200
bears here. So I'm not afraid of the black bears.

00:17:38.220 --> 00:17:41.059
I know that they are more afraid of me than I

00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:47.650
am of them. Yeah, we I Mean, I I'm not afraid

00:17:47.650 --> 00:17:52.910
when I go walking in the woods by myself I I've

00:17:52.910 --> 00:17:55.849
seen black bears here, but they just run off.

00:17:55.849 --> 00:18:00.230
They are afraid of my dogs. They just run and

00:18:00.230 --> 00:18:04.329
Wolves we haven't seen any wolves We've seen

00:18:04.329 --> 00:18:06.430
them on the trail. We have seen them on the trail

00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:10.259
camera, but not like clear in the day. They know

00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:13.039
we are here and they don't want to come close

00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:19.420
and I respect their lives. I don't want to mess

00:18:19.420 --> 00:18:22.740
with their territory and you know I think they

00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:24.680
feel the same. They don't want to come close.

00:18:24.779 --> 00:18:28.099
They have nothing to gain from coming close to

00:18:28.099 --> 00:18:32.829
us so we just... You know, yeah, yeah, I mean

00:18:32.829 --> 00:18:35.670
most wild animals are really not very interested

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.089
in humans except for the fact that we leave trash

00:18:39.089 --> 00:18:41.890
and food scraps and things tossed around everywhere

00:18:41.890 --> 00:18:45.950
and that will will attract those animals we have

00:18:45.950 --> 00:18:48.930
cougars here we have black bears we have wolves

00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:54.490
and coyotes and We don't think of these creatures

00:18:54.490 --> 00:18:58.650
as our enemies, you know, they're out there They

00:18:58.650 --> 00:19:01.930
have their lives that they've evolved for hundreds

00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:04.910
of thousands, millions of years to fulfill. And

00:19:04.910 --> 00:19:07.670
those lives generally do not include eating humans.

00:19:07.950 --> 00:19:09.750
Black bears, people are afraid of black bears.

00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:13.089
Black bears are almost completely vegan. They're

00:19:13.089 --> 00:19:15.589
mainly eating berries and leaves and roots and

00:19:15.589 --> 00:19:17.509
things. And yeah, they'll eat a fish on occasion.

00:19:17.869 --> 00:19:22.009
But these are not big carnivorous animals. They

00:19:22.009 --> 00:19:25.019
just look... Scary from afar and you definitely

00:19:25.019 --> 00:19:27.519
need to know some things like if you see a black

00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:30.559
bear Especially if it's a mother with her cubs

00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.759
you want to back away slowly You never want to

00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.099
run from an animal because running will trigger

00:19:36.099 --> 00:19:39.119
an animal maybe to want to chase But if you know

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.279
how to respond just backing away slowly backing

00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.880
away slowly Until you can you know find some

00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.759
shelter somewhere? That's even in a worst case

00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.900
scenario most scenarios the moment an animal

00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:54.539
sees you it's gonna be the one who wants to run

00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:57.460
away. But like we live in this place where there's

00:19:57.460 --> 00:20:02.220
loads of black bears and. They almost never have

00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:04.720
any interaction with people the last time i heard

00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.470
there was a visitor at the park. who got his

00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:10.869
truck broken into by a black bear. And when the

00:20:10.869 --> 00:20:13.630
story came out, it turns out that he was a honey

00:20:13.630 --> 00:20:16.230
salesman. He was a traveling honey salesman.

00:20:16.549 --> 00:20:22.029
So this sounds like a cartoon, but these creatures

00:20:22.029 --> 00:20:24.250
are really not looking to get into problems unless

00:20:24.250 --> 00:20:27.869
we are creating obvious problems for them to

00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:30.569
get into. So for the person who is going on that

00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:33.170
retreat out in the forest and they hear the sounds

00:20:33.170 --> 00:20:37.470
out in the night, That is something so magical

00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:40.529
that most people never get access to. So I would

00:20:40.529 --> 00:20:44.509
find that a very valuable experience that we

00:20:44.509 --> 00:20:49.349
should be very grateful to have. Well, I think

00:20:49.349 --> 00:20:53.470
it's one of the symptoms of our alienation from

00:20:53.470 --> 00:20:56.990
nature. We have been completely cut off from

00:20:56.990 --> 00:20:59.549
the natural world. We don't see ourselves as

00:20:59.549 --> 00:21:05.859
animals or as being part of that kingdom. irony

00:21:05.859 --> 00:21:09.319
of being afraid of bears when we are the one,

00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.740
you know, pushing them into extinction. We are

00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:17.059
really the scary creatures here, not them. But

00:21:17.059 --> 00:21:23.039
yeah, it's still in the culture. You know, in

00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.960
podcasting, the king of podcasting is Joe Rogan,

00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:30.079
and he doesn't miss a chance to talk about how

00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:34.759
bears are these horrible murderous creatures,

00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.539
like every time. And yeah, it gets tiring to

00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:42.480
to see them as, you know, potential threats.

00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.960
I think a big part of it also is fear of darkness,

00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:52.220
you know, because for a lot of people as a child,

00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.660
many of us such as myself, we had a fear of darkness,

00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:57.660
a fear of the darkness in the closet underneath

00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:01.069
the bed. or maybe our parents give us a nightlight

00:22:01.069 --> 00:22:03.789
and then we're surrounded by street lights our

00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:06.369
whole life and so we never really experience

00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:09.730
darkness and the same as when you were a kid

00:22:09.730 --> 00:22:12.690
underneath the bed you imagined something terrible

00:22:12.690 --> 00:22:15.509
down there now when we're out in our cabin in

00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:20.319
the woods it would be easy to imagine terrible

00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:23.279
things out there in the night, except for we've

00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.460
been here so long and we know that it isn't like

00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:30.519
that. I take strolls in the middle of the night.

00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.579
We'll go out stargazing or if there's the Northern

00:22:33.579 --> 00:22:37.380
Lights, then we'll walk a mile down the road

00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.519
to see Northern Lights in the middle of the night.

00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:44.539
And it's like you were saying, it's the lack

00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:47.539
of familiarity. with these situations the lack

00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:51.859
of understanding which breeds fear and the the

00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:54.000
darkness is a perfect example because we fear

00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.099
the dark and that's why in the cities we light

00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:58.539
it up because we think it's going to reduce crime

00:22:58.539 --> 00:23:01.920
but in eliminating the darkness we're also eliminating

00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:05.279
all the great things like the stars and the moon

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.339
and the northern lights and also just the sense

00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:11.980
of peace that the darkness brings so i think

00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:15.779
we could probably apply that logic to A lot of

00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:19.380
these threats that we try to defeat, such as

00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:22.599
wildlife, in getting rid of these so -called

00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.380
threats, we're also losing that connection with

00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:28.920
our deeper selves, which humans have had for

00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:33.000
millions of years. That's what we're trying to

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:35.279
reestablish out here and what we're trying to

00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.480
inspire others to do with the book and with some

00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.720
other projects that we've got lined up. For us,

00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.940
it's one thing to uh, do this as our own personal

00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:48.000
quest, but we also feel compelled to want to

00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.380
share it with others as you are doing with your

00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.859
podcast and so many other folks are doing, because

00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:54.680
that's really when we start to see change is

00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:56.440
when people all start to communicate with one

00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.740
another. Yeah. I would not compare your beautiful

00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:03.279
project to my podcast. You know, I think yours

00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.380
is, is just incredible. Um, okay. You mentioned

00:24:07.380 --> 00:24:11.299
the Parker pines. Sorry, I'm forgetting the name.

00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:15.940
What is the name of the place? porcupine mountains,

00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.420
because the the native people name them that

00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:20.339
because they are shaped, they seem to be shaped

00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:22.519
like porcupines. They're not big rocky mountains,

00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:24.799
you know, they're they're Midwestern mountains.

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:28.799
Yes. So the porcupines mountain and I noticed

00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:34.099
in your online, you know, e commerce shop that

00:24:34.099 --> 00:24:36.660
you sell lots of merch, you know, related to

00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:40.200
that. um you know artwork that uh you've done

00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:45.519
i think so and um there was there were many items

00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.160
with uh the message i think protect porcupines

00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:53.339
mountain so uh what are we protecting porcupines

00:24:53.339 --> 00:24:59.099
mountain from exactly right so you know as we've

00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:01.920
been uh crafting this book uh actually we started

00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.299
the book before we moved here And when we moved

00:25:05.299 --> 00:25:07.640
here in this beautiful place next to the largest

00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:09.599
old -growth forest in Michigan, we've got old

00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:13.160
-growth forest right outside our doorstep basically

00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:15.980
next to Lake Superior, the largest, cleanest

00:25:15.980 --> 00:25:18.920
of all freshwater lakes. The Porcupine Mountains

00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.940
are also a very popular park. They were ranked

00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:23.880
recently as the most beautiful state park in

00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.519
the country and ranked again this year as Michigan's

00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:28.720
favorite state park. So it seems like a place

00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.140
that... would obviously be protected, and yet

00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:36.500
there is currently a proposal for a large copper

00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:40.119
mine to be developed right next to the old growth

00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:43.740
forest and right next to Lake Superior. And the

00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:45.779
concern there, I mean there are many concerns,

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.400
mines can be highly contaminating, especially

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.880
of fresh water, but it also requires clear -cutting

00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.400
dozens of acres of forest, hundreds of acres

00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.710
of forest, destroying wetlands and Storing quite

00:25:58.710 --> 00:26:01.390
a lot of waste i wasn't familiar with all the

00:26:01.390 --> 00:26:04.410
waste that is created from mining but for example

00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:07.289
in this case the copper that they're mining would

00:26:07.289 --> 00:26:10.250
only comprise less than two percent of what comes

00:26:10.250 --> 00:26:12.390
out of the ground. So they would have to store

00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:15.930
tens of millions of tons of waste containing

00:26:15.930 --> 00:26:19.289
heavy metals like arsenic lead cadmium mercury.

00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:23.480
all of this on site on topography that slopes

00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:26.559
towards Lake Superior, we happen to be the only

00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:28.500
people who live out here. We have no neighbors

00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:32.240
within five miles. And so there, you know, a

00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:35.819
lot of times when somebody speaks up for an ecological

00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:39.279
cause, they also have a personal stake in the

00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:44.700
game. And in many cases, the industries try to

00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:47.740
put these contaminating operations in a place

00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:49.920
where nobody is going to think about them. Like

00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.259
factory farms, for example. We never see factory

00:26:53.259 --> 00:26:55.859
farms advertised anywhere. You don't see billboards

00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.059
for factory farms driving down the highway. You

00:26:58.059 --> 00:27:00.799
don't see signs for factory farms. Most people

00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.039
could not tell you where they are. And the same

00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:06.900
thing with a contaminating operation like a mine.

00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:09.599
Of course, it's determined by where the metals

00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.259
are available, but it's also something that they

00:27:12.259 --> 00:27:15.640
try to hide. They try to advertise. And so this

00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.519
this company did not want anybody to know that

00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:21.059
they were seeking to develop this mine right

00:27:21.059 --> 00:27:24.079
next to one of the country's favorite state parks,

00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:27.119
largest old growth forest in the Midwest. And

00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.299
we decided to speak up about it. We started a

00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:33.259
campaign called Protect the Porkies. The Porkies

00:27:33.259 --> 00:27:36.680
are the kind of popular name for the Porcupine

00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:39.569
Mountains. and we've had quite a lot of success

00:27:39.569 --> 00:27:43.750
with that campaign. We managed to get a 50 million

00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:47.569
dollar grant from the states blocked that was

00:27:47.569 --> 00:27:49.529
going to be awarded to the mining company. We

00:27:49.529 --> 00:27:53.009
helped organize a water walk in which members

00:27:53.009 --> 00:27:56.470
of some of the local indigenous tribes here carried

00:27:56.470 --> 00:28:00.430
water 30 miles on foot and poured it into the

00:28:00.430 --> 00:28:05.329
lake in response to the proposed mine and You

00:28:05.329 --> 00:28:08.309
know, all of this, it's so strange because in

00:28:08.309 --> 00:28:11.470
the Reynard the House Wolf book, which we started

00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:13.450
before we knew about the Porcupine Mountains,

00:28:13.490 --> 00:28:16.650
before we knew about this proposed mine, it talks

00:28:16.650 --> 00:28:19.230
about the threats that these wolves are facing

00:28:19.230 --> 00:28:22.190
from all of the mining taking place in the mountains.

00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:25.089
And I had never even really thought about mining.

00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:27.430
It was just something that sort of came out in

00:28:27.430 --> 00:28:30.630
the story. And then lo and behold, you know,

00:28:30.769 --> 00:28:33.049
less than two years later, we find ourselves

00:28:33.049 --> 00:28:36.460
in a situation where the wolves are really being

00:28:36.460 --> 00:28:40.079
threatened by mining and it kind of felt like

00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.960
something of a mystical moments where we had

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.359
like had this premonition about the direction

00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:47.460
our lives are going to take in the fictional

00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:50.980
world. So yes soul helps manage the social media

00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:53.880
and she's done a lot of artwork and some of them

00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:56.240
the merch that you've seen that's come from folks

00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:59.140
in the community who have made posters and stickers

00:28:59.140 --> 00:29:03.099
and all sorts of things. Last year we organized

00:29:03.099 --> 00:29:07.480
an art contest and all these artists submitted

00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:11.039
this beautiful artwork so we made it into postcards,

00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.900
posters and now t -shirts and hoodies to be able

00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:18.259
to support the campaign because Tom and I don't

00:29:18.259 --> 00:29:25.869
get any salary to work on this campaign. Tom

00:29:25.869 --> 00:29:29.029
has spent thousands of hours working on this

00:29:29.029 --> 00:29:32.170
so this is the way that we support and we can

00:29:32.170 --> 00:29:36.410
keep doing it but we feel very grateful because

00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:40.230
there are so many people who care about the porcupine

00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:43.470
mountains and this area about the wildlife they

00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:45.730
have a strong connection because some people

00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:48.619
have been coming to this park for their whole

00:29:48.619 --> 00:29:52.299
lives and they know how precious it is, how beautiful,

00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:56.839
unique, clean, and they want to protect it. So

00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:00.960
we just started the website and then all these

00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:06.589
people showed up. So we are very grateful. a

00:30:06.589 --> 00:30:10.789
petition on change .org slash protect the porkies

00:30:10.789 --> 00:30:13.009
where folks can read about the case or they can

00:30:13.009 --> 00:30:15.589
go to protect the porkies dot com. But almost

00:30:15.589 --> 00:30:17.829
a half million people have signed that petition

00:30:17.829 --> 00:30:20.809
now. You know, change .org was so impressed that

00:30:20.809 --> 00:30:23.210
they've reached out to us and had us give presentations

00:30:23.210 --> 00:30:26.609
to their their company because, you know, we

00:30:26.609 --> 00:30:28.490
did a lot of work, but it's also just a message

00:30:28.490 --> 00:30:32.049
that resonates with people. And all along the

00:30:32.049 --> 00:30:36.970
way, we try to involve arts. culture because

00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:40.450
we've learned increasingly that you can't just

00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:43.650
you can't just convince people with arguments

00:30:43.650 --> 00:30:48.029
and statistics and facts you know so much of

00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:51.049
what we do comes from how we feel and how we

00:30:51.049 --> 00:30:55.049
feel is determined by art and music and storytelling

00:30:55.049 --> 00:30:58.569
and personal relationships. So that's why we

00:30:58.569 --> 00:31:00.029
try to get the arts involved. We're going to

00:31:00.029 --> 00:31:02.529
launch a songwriting contest for the Protect

00:31:02.529 --> 00:31:05.210
the Porkies campaign in just a few weeks. And

00:31:05.210 --> 00:31:07.650
that's also, of course, why we put the book together

00:31:07.650 --> 00:31:10.809
and as well as some other projects we're working

00:31:10.809 --> 00:31:13.369
on. It's all about trying to interact on that

00:31:13.369 --> 00:31:15.690
subconscious realm. You know, I think of it as

00:31:15.690 --> 00:31:19.490
like We see a tree above the ground and we see

00:31:19.490 --> 00:31:21.769
the trunk and the branches and we think, wow,

00:31:21.809 --> 00:31:24.450
what a majestic tree. But without the roots that

00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:27.089
are invisible underneath the surface, there would

00:31:27.089 --> 00:31:31.450
be no tree. So those roots are all of the arts

00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:33.549
and the music and the conversations, everything

00:31:33.549 --> 00:31:36.089
that creates our feelings, which then leads to

00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:38.369
real world action. It's the same in the vegan

00:31:38.369 --> 00:31:41.369
movement. There's only so far we can go with

00:31:41.369 --> 00:31:44.940
just convincing people. and showing images and

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.619
citing statistics, we really have to delve into

00:31:47.619 --> 00:31:51.440
that deeper level. Of course, listeners will

00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:56.220
find links to the shop and also the petition

00:31:56.220 --> 00:32:01.900
in the episode's notes. And again, it is worth

00:32:01.900 --> 00:32:06.920
visiting the shop. some beautiful items. I will

00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.420
definitely shop, you know, some of that, uh,

00:32:10.539 --> 00:32:14.279
protect them. The, the park is much also, there

00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.859
are beautiful items, perfect for gifts, uh, such

00:32:17.859 --> 00:32:21.099
as the, what is it called? The earrings, uh,

00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:25.339
that you design, uh, sold beautiful. Uh, I will

00:32:25.339 --> 00:32:28.380
certainly, you know, get some of that and, uh,

00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:31.940
the postcards. Oh my gosh. I I'm still, you know,

00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:34.880
I still use postcards for, you know, birthdays

00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.599
and stuff like that. I think it adds, you know,

00:32:37.779 --> 00:32:41.799
a personal touch. So, yeah, I was really happy

00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:45.079
to find them on your website. Oh, we're excited

00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:48.240
to know that people still use postcards. For

00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.319
me, receiving a handwritten letter or postcard

00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.720
from a friend is such a precious thing. And I

00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:57.220
have, well, in the beginning of our relationship,

00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:00.609
we We were in different countries. I was in Spain,

00:33:00.670 --> 00:33:03.579
he was in the US and we would... write letters

00:33:03.579 --> 00:33:05.819
and it was the most beautiful thing for me to

00:33:05.819 --> 00:33:08.599
receive one and I kept doing that with friends

00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:10.839
because I've been living in different countries

00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:14.240
leaving my friends behind and I just love that

00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.619
feeling of spending some time just with a piece

00:33:17.619 --> 00:33:20.380
of paper writing your thoughts and your love

00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:22.880
and everything and then for that person to receive

00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.259
it eventually and if it has cool art in it with

00:33:26.259 --> 00:33:29.259
a postcard it's even better. Exactly you know

00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:33.289
you want something if you're creating a personalized

00:33:33.289 --> 00:33:37.309
experience or gift for someone. You also want

00:33:37.309 --> 00:33:42.170
that to be from an artist you know. You don't

00:33:42.170 --> 00:33:46.690
want some generic postcard made in China or something

00:33:46.690 --> 00:33:50.089
like that. I guess you want, you know, a deeper

00:33:50.089 --> 00:33:54.190
level of personalization. And what you said about

00:33:54.190 --> 00:33:59.430
Tom, about inspiring people and not, you know,

00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:03.160
being stuck in the, I guess, right side of your

00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:07.220
brain, which is more analytical and data driven.

00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:12.340
It's something I try to convince people to consider

00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:15.699
time and times again in my professional life,

00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.900
you know, as a fundraiser, but also in this movement.

00:34:20.420 --> 00:34:23.340
Okay, let's talk a little about veganism. And

00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:27.219
I don't know if you watch some of those vegan

00:34:27.219 --> 00:34:30.539
influencers on YouTube, but There is a trend

00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:37.860
of vegans going in rural areas, you know, the

00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:43.699
whole homestead thing. And after a while, always,

00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.179
you know, it's a rule, they stop being vegan

00:34:46.179 --> 00:34:51.280
and they become, you know, full -fledged farmers

00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:55.739
with, with, you know, chickens and all of that.

00:34:56.420 --> 00:35:00.679
And they always cite. because they always have

00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:05.960
to talk about it, how they decided to leave veganism

00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:09.219
behind. And they always talk about how isolating

00:35:09.219 --> 00:35:13.440
it feels to be vegan in a community where everyone

00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:18.739
is a farmer or something like that. So how do

00:35:18.739 --> 00:35:23.579
you maintain a vegan lifestyle in the wilderness?

00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:29.190
I don't think anybody became vegan to win a popularity

00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:33.269
contest. I've been vegan for 21 years now. When

00:35:33.269 --> 00:35:37.349
I was 15, I became vegan and I was one of only

00:35:37.349 --> 00:35:40.610
two or three vegans in my high school and frequently

00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:44.570
got picked on by people, teased. people would

00:35:44.570 --> 00:35:46.869
ask all of the ridiculous questions like okay

00:35:46.869 --> 00:35:49.070
well what if you were on a deserted island and

00:35:49.070 --> 00:35:50.829
there was only a cow what would you you know

00:35:50.829 --> 00:35:53.670
you get used to it's not that they were mean

00:35:53.670 --> 00:35:56.989
they were just very curious and um you know teenagers

00:35:56.989 --> 00:36:00.309
are always a little bit mean but so we've already

00:36:00.309 --> 00:36:05.650
been kind of trained in following a way of life

00:36:05.650 --> 00:36:09.070
that isn't practiced by all of our friends certainly

00:36:09.070 --> 00:36:12.900
not by our families and It's something we're

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:16.059
doing because we believe in not because the community

00:36:16.059 --> 00:36:18.239
is doing and not because everybody we know is

00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:21.260
going to think how cool we are. So I would say

00:36:21.260 --> 00:36:25.289
if somebody stops being vegan because. they're

00:36:25.289 --> 00:36:28.550
surrounded surrounded by cattle ranchers or whatever,

00:36:29.030 --> 00:36:31.590
then maybe they weren't being vegan for the right

00:36:31.590 --> 00:36:35.530
reasons. It's like if we were surrounded by cannibals,

00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:38.710
would we suddenly? Yeah, maybe I'll pick up a

00:36:38.710 --> 00:36:41.250
human leg one day. No, there's something called

00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:44.309
morality, which you don't just flick on and off

00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:47.469
like a light switch. And, you know, I think a

00:36:47.469 --> 00:36:50.829
lot of people in the vegan world really love

00:36:50.829 --> 00:36:54.170
eating out, which is great to eat out there's

00:36:54.170 --> 00:36:57.130
some delicious vegan restaurants but we've always

00:36:57.130 --> 00:36:59.889
been folks who enjoy just like simple cooking

00:36:59.889 --> 00:37:03.309
and cooking for ourselves both because it's cheaper

00:37:03.309 --> 00:37:06.969
and because to be honest uh the meals that you

00:37:06.969 --> 00:37:09.610
can make for yourself are very often much more

00:37:09.610 --> 00:37:11.690
delicious than what you will get in a restaurant

00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:14.909
but i think for some people if you move out to

00:37:14.909 --> 00:37:17.969
the middle of a rural area and you don't have

00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:21.559
a vegan friendly health food store next door

00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.619
and you don't have 10 vegan restaurants and cafes

00:37:24.619 --> 00:37:27.599
with vegan cupcakes it might feel like oh my

00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:31.099
god what are we doing but you know we have a

00:37:31.099 --> 00:37:33.219
we're fortunate because we have a health food

00:37:33.219 --> 00:37:37.219
co -op about a 40 minute drive away which is

00:37:37.219 --> 00:37:39.099
much further away than most folks in the city

00:37:39.099 --> 00:37:43.500
but if we want to go get some soy meats or whatever

00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:46.920
we can do that But also, you know, it's amazing

00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.739
what you can find in Wal -Mart and in Super One

00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:52.559
and any grocery store is going to have fruits

00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.900
and vegetables and nuts and beans. Yeah, tofu.

00:37:57.460 --> 00:37:59.739
So all the things, all the stables of a vegan

00:37:59.739 --> 00:38:02.219
diet, you can get them in any grocery store in

00:38:02.219 --> 00:38:05.269
the 21st century. it really doesn't matter where

00:38:05.269 --> 00:38:08.050
you are. We've lived in Spain, we've lived in

00:38:08.050 --> 00:38:11.929
South America, we've lived in Poland, many different

00:38:11.929 --> 00:38:13.949
countries, and we have been vegan everywhere.

00:38:16.150 --> 00:38:20.590
Even traveling. Sometimes people say, I was traveling

00:38:20.590 --> 00:38:24.019
and I couldn't be vegan. I know that. I mean,

00:38:24.019 --> 00:38:26.199
I don't want to judge people. They might have

00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:28.440
their different reasons. But for us, we have

00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.860
always kept being vegan, even when traveling,

00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:34.119
even in very difficult situations, there were

00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:37.039
always nuts and different things that we could

00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:41.039
eat. But something cool about living here in

00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:44.539
the forest and being, well, I don't know if it's

00:38:44.539 --> 00:38:47.360
just being vegan, but just being curious. We

00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:51.800
started learning about foraging and we have all

00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:55.769
these like berries that we have been eating in

00:38:55.769 --> 00:38:59.190
the summer. There are so many blackberries, raspberries,

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:02.889
blueberries everywhere. Also, we learned about

00:39:02.889 --> 00:39:06.550
mushroom foraging and we learned to recognize

00:39:06.550 --> 00:39:09.250
the ones that are very, very safe to eat. Like

00:39:09.250 --> 00:39:11.289
we will not eat something that we don't know

00:39:11.289 --> 00:39:14.309
what it is. But there is like chicken of the

00:39:14.309 --> 00:39:17.730
woods, shrimp of the woods, oyster mushrooms.

00:39:18.030 --> 00:39:22.039
It's funny, they all have names of animals. but

00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:27.159
they taste delicious and we love to eat those

00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:29.739
and we have been learning a lot and it's just

00:39:29.739 --> 00:39:33.639
very fun to see everything that you can get from

00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:38.119
the land and it's pure it's clean it's delicious

00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:43.039
and very precious yeah they do name a lot of

00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:46.340
these mushrooms these uh culinary mushrooms after

00:39:46.340 --> 00:39:50.190
animals and chicken of the woods is very delicious

00:39:50.190 --> 00:39:53.710
it does taste you know it has a rich kind of

00:39:53.710 --> 00:39:58.190
meaty texture like a tofurkey like texture almost

00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:02.590
and mushrooms are another case where people fear

00:40:02.590 --> 00:40:04.369
what they don't understand there's actually very

00:40:04.369 --> 00:40:07.289
few mushrooms that are deadly poisonous there's

00:40:07.289 --> 00:40:09.590
quite a few that will upset your stomach but

00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:11.630
once you learn the ones that are safe to eat

00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:15.219
it's like having a grocery store you know, not

00:40:15.219 --> 00:40:18.500
too far out of your backyard. So I would say

00:40:18.500 --> 00:40:22.280
to those folks who move out to the country, if

00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:24.199
you make a moral choice, you should stick with

00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:26.659
your moral choice. And if you want to be a farmer,

00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.800
great, be a vegan farmer. It's a thing that people

00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:35.139
do grow those fruits and vegetables. For me,

00:40:35.139 --> 00:40:39.340
it came as a surprise because I always thought

00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:43.119
that if someone goes out of the city and connects

00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:47.320
with nature, then this will be one more argument

00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:53.260
for them to keep, you know, stay vegan or become

00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:57.239
vegan. But, you know, you witness the opposite.

00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:04.059
So it's very counterintuitive for me. Do you

00:41:04.059 --> 00:41:08.400
feel like your experience of being close to nature

00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:14.760
has deepened your commitment to animals? Yes,

00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:19.699
very much so. You know, like, for me personally,

00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:22.480
I think for all of us, we became vegan because

00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:25.579
we already felt a connection with animals. And

00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:28.900
for many of us and for myself, it was my connection

00:41:28.900 --> 00:41:31.960
with my pets, you know, my dogs, my cats. And

00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:35.139
I thought, well, if I wouldn't kill and exploit

00:41:35.139 --> 00:41:37.719
and eat those animals, then why would I eat any

00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:43.050
animal? But Very often we think about these domesticated

00:41:43.050 --> 00:41:45.989
animals and these so -called farm animals like

00:41:45.989 --> 00:41:48.769
pigs and chickens and cows, but we don't spend

00:41:48.769 --> 00:41:51.309
so much time thinking about all of the animals

00:41:51.309 --> 00:41:54.550
and not just animals, but plants and mushrooms.

00:41:54.730 --> 00:41:57.909
I think all of nature has a degree of sentience

00:41:57.909 --> 00:42:00.449
and consciousness and all of these incredible

00:42:00.449 --> 00:42:03.309
life forms that are existing out there in the

00:42:03.309 --> 00:42:06.130
world and they all exist in relation to one another.

00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:08.960
You know, like a wolf would be nothing without

00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:11.719
the river and without the trees and without the

00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:14.699
deer and without the mushrooms and the mosses.

00:42:15.139 --> 00:42:18.860
Ecosystems are all about relationality. And that's

00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:22.539
why it is so disturbing the way that the human

00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:27.119
civilization is just sort of steamrolling over

00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.380
all of this infinite complexity of nature, which

00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:34.679
has been evolving for billions of years. You

00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:36.820
know, we steamroll it over like we're shaking

00:42:36.820 --> 00:42:39.699
an etch a sketch, just to have a blank slate

00:42:39.699 --> 00:42:44.039
and then put up a mine or a Walmart or a new

00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.760
highway or whatever. And animals are definitely

00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:53.250
the most charismatic. um you know representatives

00:42:53.250 --> 00:42:56.849
of nature like any ecological campaign often

00:42:56.849 --> 00:43:03.010
will highlight a panda bear or a fox or you know

00:43:03.010 --> 00:43:06.550
some charismatic animal but the animals are really

00:43:06.550 --> 00:43:09.650
the the transition into having an empathy also

00:43:09.650 --> 00:43:12.449
for the whole ecosystem because everything is

00:43:12.449 --> 00:43:14.929
dependent on everything else and humans of course

00:43:14.929 --> 00:43:18.769
are a part of that um but you know i guess to

00:43:18.769 --> 00:43:22.300
answer your question More directly, of course,

00:43:22.460 --> 00:43:26.500
with my dogs, I have a very personal relationship

00:43:26.500 --> 00:43:30.260
with them. But you can you can care about and

00:43:30.260 --> 00:43:33.840
honor animals that you never have to see personally,

00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.360
like we know that these wolves are out there.

00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.159
We've seen them on the trail camera. We haven't

00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:42.760
ever. met them up close. We know that there is

00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:46.679
cougars out there, that there are weasels and

00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:50.739
all kinds of frogs and newts and amazing insects.

00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:54.480
And we don't have to have them as close to us

00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.300
as we have our pets in order to respect them

00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:00.400
and in order to want them to have happiness and

00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:06.119
freedom. Yes, and I agree with what you said

00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:10.139
about you know, developing a connection first

00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:15.039
with your pets. This was my case. You know, I

00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.960
had a duck growing up. It's a, it's a weird story,

00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:22.119
but, and you know, he was my friend, that duck

00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:28.760
and there were cats too, stray cats and those

00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:33.079
experiences of having those animals near me and

00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:35.909
developing relationships with them. is really

00:44:35.909 --> 00:44:38.829
what drove me to become vegan. I always say I

00:44:38.829 --> 00:44:42.289
became vegan out of love for animals, not because

00:44:42.289 --> 00:44:45.909
I watched some horrendous footage. I also really

00:44:45.909 --> 00:44:49.570
appreciate the nugget of insight that you gave

00:44:49.570 --> 00:44:53.929
about the minds and how this was mentioned in

00:44:53.929 --> 00:44:57.530
the book in a prophetic way, which really feels

00:44:57.530 --> 00:45:02.510
like this book was meant to be. So how did it

00:45:02.510 --> 00:45:06.340
start, you know? Did you wake up one day and

00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:11.179
thought, OK, we need now to create an art book?

00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:15.780
I don't remember the exact moment when we decided

00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:19.199
we wanted to create a children's book. I just

00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.840
remember that I made an illustration of Reynard.

00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:25.639
I had just acquired an iPad and I was testing

00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:29.820
it and I made this illustration of him. And we

00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:34.239
both really liked that illustration. At some

00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.199
point we decided it would be cool to make this

00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:41.219
story and we thought we would make a children's

00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:45.820
book and it would have around 25 illustrations

00:45:45.820 --> 00:45:49.840
and Tom wrote the story. We all thought it was

00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:54.659
really cute and funny and sweet. But then we

00:45:54.659 --> 00:45:57.019
realized that we had the opportunity to create

00:45:57.019 --> 00:46:00.820
something really special and the story became

00:46:00.820 --> 00:46:07.309
longer. rhymed, he transformed it into a poem.

00:46:07.929 --> 00:46:10.869
And we decided that it was worth it to illustrate

00:46:10.869 --> 00:46:15.349
every page. So now we have 160 illustrations

00:46:15.349 --> 00:46:18.789
for our graphic novel. It's not a children's

00:46:18.789 --> 00:46:21.889
book anymore. It's for really everybody who would

00:46:21.889 --> 00:46:25.969
like to enjoy this story. Yeah, it started as

00:46:25.969 --> 00:46:27.829
a children's book, as Saul said, and then we

00:46:27.829 --> 00:46:31.559
decided graphic novel. really shows that it can

00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:35.000
appeal to anybody because I mean, for me, what

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.480
we made is it would have been my favorite book

00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:41.179
if I was 10 years old or 12 years old. But it

00:46:41.179 --> 00:46:44.519
would also, I think, be a great art book, a great

00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:47.340
story for anybody to enjoy. We all have an inner

00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:51.000
child within us. We all love awesome art. And

00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:54.539
we are also hoping to convince folks that poetry

00:46:54.539 --> 00:46:58.320
can be fun. The whole thing rhymes, as Sol said.

00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:02.760
And, you know, you were talking about how your

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:05.820
connection with animals, with your pets of the

00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:08.019
duck and these stray cats led to you being vegan.

00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:11.280
And that is part of our secret intention with

00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:15.039
this book. We didn't want to make a book called

00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:18.619
Reynard, The Awesome Vegan Dog, because then

00:47:18.619 --> 00:47:21.150
a lot of people would not even consider. opening

00:47:21.150 --> 00:47:24.070
it, right? People hear that word and they tune

00:47:24.070 --> 00:47:25.489
out and they say, oh, I've already heard about

00:47:25.489 --> 00:47:28.550
that on Joe Rogan. So, you know, not even going

00:47:28.550 --> 00:47:31.349
to think about it. But there's no mention of

00:47:31.349 --> 00:47:34.590
veganism in Reynard the house wolf. Although

00:47:34.590 --> 00:47:36.869
Reynard, our real dog is fully vegan as well

00:47:36.869 --> 00:47:40.909
as her other dog Shanti. However, in his travels

00:47:40.909 --> 00:47:44.090
in this book. He meets all of these animals,

00:47:44.809 --> 00:47:47.429
like a squirrel trying to cross the road, like

00:47:47.429 --> 00:47:52.050
a seal who's battling plastic bags, a black -footed

00:47:52.050 --> 00:47:55.170
ferret who is separated from another ferret by

00:47:55.170 --> 00:47:59.389
habitat fragmentation, these wolves. And to all

00:47:59.389 --> 00:48:02.000
of these animals, he gives them names. They don't

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.440
have names. And he finds that strange. Why is

00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.679
it that I, as a dog, have this name, but none

00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:09.079
of you have names? And some of the animals don't

00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:10.900
really understand being named, and they don't

00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:12.579
want it. Like, the crow doesn't want a name.

00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:14.860
He says, well, I limit myself with a name when

00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:18.519
I can be infinite. But one of the animals that

00:48:18.519 --> 00:48:24.179
he meets is this pig, pig number 3285, which

00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:26.780
jumps out the back of a factory farm truck on

00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:30.250
the way to the slaughterhouse. Reynard becomes

00:48:30.250 --> 00:48:33.030
best friends with this pig and he says number

00:48:33.030 --> 00:48:35.869
3285 is a terrible name and he renames the pig

00:48:35.869 --> 00:48:40.070
Patrick and Patrick reflects at great length

00:48:40.070 --> 00:48:43.670
on his experience of living in darkness. crammed

00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:45.329
together with all these other pigs. He doesn't

00:48:45.329 --> 00:48:50.510
have a word for sky or ground or trees or clouds.

00:48:50.809 --> 00:48:52.690
He's asking Reynard, you know, what are all these

00:48:52.690 --> 00:48:56.489
things around us? But Patrick, the same as Reynard,

00:48:56.670 --> 00:48:59.909
has had this dream about reconnecting with his

00:48:59.909 --> 00:49:03.610
inner warthog out there in the forest and discovering

00:49:03.610 --> 00:49:06.730
all of this stuff that was denied to him on the

00:49:06.730 --> 00:49:10.429
factory farm. So without having to talk about.

00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:14.340
factory farming directly without having to talk

00:49:14.340 --> 00:49:17.579
about veganism. We are hoping that Reynard acts

00:49:17.579 --> 00:49:21.639
as a transitionary character to help readers

00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.119
discover the greater empathy that they have,

00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:28.420
not just for their pets, but for farm animals,

00:49:28.659 --> 00:49:31.500
for wild animals and for the greater natural

00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:37.619
world. I agree with you so much. The number of

00:49:37.630 --> 00:49:40.969
children's book made by vegans that are too on

00:49:40.969 --> 00:49:45.389
the nose are just, you know, so because then

00:49:45.389 --> 00:49:48.869
what you want to create is really a children's

00:49:48.869 --> 00:49:53.349
book for children, vegan children, not really,

00:49:53.349 --> 00:50:01.179
you know, the public at large. Yeah, so I really

00:50:01.179 --> 00:50:03.780
love the idea. You're just making me fall in

00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:07.139
love again with this book. And I'm really looking

00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:12.260
forward to getting the book in my hands. Do you

00:50:12.260 --> 00:50:15.199
think there is such a thing as vegan art? Because

00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:18.860
I made an episode about the Art of Compassion

00:50:18.860 --> 00:50:22.699
project. Do you know about these people? No,

00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:26.710
but sounds very interesting. Yes, they are a

00:50:26.710 --> 00:50:29.329
group, there's a term for it, but they're a group

00:50:29.329 --> 00:50:31.889
of artists from around the world who are all

00:50:31.889 --> 00:50:37.190
vegans. And they create vegan art. So usually

00:50:37.190 --> 00:50:40.369
it is from the point of view of animals or depicting,

00:50:40.369 --> 00:50:44.630
you know, animal cruelty. And they sell that

00:50:44.630 --> 00:50:49.010
art and, you know, they use the profits to help

00:50:49.010 --> 00:50:53.170
vegan organizations or sanctuaries, things like

00:50:53.170 --> 00:50:57.000
that. But do you think there is such a thing

00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:01.920
as vegan art? Because we see depiction of animals

00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:06.340
from non vegans. And, you know, from my point

00:51:06.340 --> 00:51:09.860
of view, I see a difference. I really see two

00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:14.639
dimensional creatures when it's a non vegan depiction.

00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:20.360
But with vegans, there is more depth to the animal.

00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:24.409
And that's just one example I could give. But

00:51:24.409 --> 00:51:27.949
have you had that realization? Yeah, I think

00:51:27.949 --> 00:51:30.949
that is a great reflection that you've had about

00:51:30.949 --> 00:51:34.929
the depth that vegans will give to animals. Animals

00:51:34.929 --> 00:51:38.690
will become characters in a vegan story or in

00:51:38.690 --> 00:51:42.289
a vegan work, as opposed to just objects. You

00:51:42.289 --> 00:51:45.449
know, I think maybe for a lot of these non -vegan

00:51:45.449 --> 00:51:48.250
creators, they've spent their whole lives seeing

00:51:48.250 --> 00:51:51.050
animals as objects, you know, even their pets

00:51:51.050 --> 00:51:55.739
potentially. are kind of like a piece of furniture,

00:51:55.860 --> 00:51:58.980
maybe with a bit of personality. But like I look

00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:02.119
at Reynard and any of our pets that we've had

00:52:02.119 --> 00:52:04.619
and I see them, I see the light in their eyes,

00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:07.599
I see them as having a soul, the same as me and

00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.340
you. And I don't mean the word soul in any like

00:52:11.340 --> 00:52:13.500
specific religious sense, but just in the idea

00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:17.000
that we all have an interior world and we all

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:20.599
have thoughts and dreams and we all want freedom

00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:25.260
and health and happiness and any vegan who's

00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:28.860
had such a revelation that they've changed their

00:52:28.860 --> 00:52:31.059
diet, they've changed how they spend their money,

00:52:31.179 --> 00:52:34.639
they've changed the clothing they wear. For most

00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:38.340
people, you vote once every four years, and then

00:52:38.340 --> 00:52:40.719
the rest of the time, you can tune out. But a

00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:43.639
vegan, every single day, we are taking conscious

00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:46.440
political action to make the world a better place,

00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:49.860
not just for ourselves, but for all of these

00:52:49.860 --> 00:52:51.760
other creatures that we share the world with.

00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:54.420
So if you've had that kind of inner realization,

00:52:54.420 --> 00:52:56.659
it's going to change the stories that you tell.

00:52:56.699 --> 00:52:59.460
It's going to change the art and the music that

00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:04.679
you make. So 100%, I think, you know, is it is

00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:06.860
there such a thing as vegan art or not vegan

00:53:06.860 --> 00:53:09.780
art? It's kind of a, you know, a semantic discussion.

00:53:09.780 --> 00:53:12.460
But I think the intention there certainly will

00:53:12.460 --> 00:53:14.940
be a different intention. Is the creator seeing

00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:19.489
an animal as an object or a subject? But also

00:53:19.489 --> 00:53:22.989
there's the aspect of the materials, which for

00:53:22.989 --> 00:53:27.190
a long time I hadn't thought about it, but then

00:53:27.190 --> 00:53:32.250
I researched and in watercolors or in acrylic

00:53:32.250 --> 00:53:35.750
paints, oil paints, you can have paints that

00:53:35.750 --> 00:53:41.750
have bones from animals or there are glues that

00:53:41.750 --> 00:53:45.489
have parts of animals, you know, from rabbits

00:53:45.489 --> 00:53:50.079
or fish and I hadn't really thought about that

00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:53.619
until I made the conscious decision of just trying

00:53:53.619 --> 00:53:57.300
to use vegan materials only, so I had to switch

00:53:57.300 --> 00:54:00.539
my brushes so that they would be all synthetic

00:54:00.539 --> 00:54:04.320
and all my paints would be vegan, my paper, my

00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:09.519
glues, everything, and I'm very happy that I

00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:12.860
did that. I made that conscious choice and I

00:54:12.860 --> 00:54:16.320
changed everything because now from a material

00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:20.679
aspect, my art is vegan. That's a really good

00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:26.039
point. Yes, I think maybe vegan art is a bad

00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:29.239
way to represent it. Maybe it's just art that

00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:34.079
is closer to reality. I was watching recently

00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:38.659
an episode of The Kingdom of David. So weird

00:54:38.659 --> 00:54:42.750
thing to watch for me, but It's an Amazon Prime

00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:47.710
TV series and it's about, you know, the biblical

00:54:47.710 --> 00:54:51.349
story of how the kingdom of David was established.

00:54:52.329 --> 00:54:55.329
And at some point they needed to make a sacrifice

00:54:55.329 --> 00:54:59.610
for God and they presented it as something very

00:54:59.610 --> 00:55:04.050
wholesome. So an animal sacrifice. And I was

00:55:04.050 --> 00:55:07.510
just looking at it, you know, watching the episode

00:55:07.510 --> 00:55:11.239
thinking, are they going to show? the poor little

00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:16.800
lamb getting slaughtered and the visuals of it.

00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.039
How are they going to frame it? And of course

00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:21.980
they did not. They did not show the scene of

00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:24.460
the slaughter. They just showed the before and

00:55:24.460 --> 00:55:31.320
after moment. And by doing that, they could camouflage

00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:33.440
the whole thing as something very wholesome.

00:55:34.099 --> 00:55:40.429
But in there, in hitting that visual portrait,

00:55:41.030 --> 00:55:44.349
there is a confession that people would not appreciate

00:55:44.349 --> 00:55:48.429
to see a lamb getting slaughtered, that there

00:55:48.429 --> 00:55:54.070
is something inherently cruel and shocking and

00:55:54.070 --> 00:56:00.869
violent to watching something like that. So when

00:56:00.869 --> 00:56:06.030
I see, you know, vegans not shying away, to represent

00:56:06.030 --> 00:56:10.309
animal cruelty. That's also something, you know,

00:56:10.510 --> 00:56:13.789
closer to reality, but I don't see that so much

00:56:13.789 --> 00:56:18.730
from non -vegan artists. Yeah. Yeah, very much

00:56:18.730 --> 00:56:23.369
so. I mean, for almost all of the movies and

00:56:23.369 --> 00:56:27.070
series that are out there, you know, all of the

00:56:27.070 --> 00:56:31.090
TV shows, it's all about humans. Talking to other

00:56:31.090 --> 00:56:34.269
humans killing other humans having relationships

00:56:34.269 --> 00:56:37.050
with other humans doing crimes against humans

00:56:37.050 --> 00:56:41.190
You almost never even see an animal in any movie

00:56:41.190 --> 00:56:45.590
or in any TV show Except as a secondary kind

00:56:45.590 --> 00:56:47.829
of object in the background or whatever. Of course,

00:56:47.909 --> 00:56:50.610
there are exceptions. There are some great Stories

00:56:50.610 --> 00:56:53.929
out there which are all about animals but in

00:56:53.929 --> 00:56:57.159
general in our storytelling still It's all about

00:56:57.159 --> 00:56:59.340
humans, which is interesting because humans are

00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:03.320
less than 1 % of 1 % of 1 % of all of the life

00:57:03.320 --> 00:57:06.460
forms out there You know as soon as we start

00:57:06.460 --> 00:57:09.800
opening the door to all of these other Creatures

00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:12.320
of these other life forms. There are so many

00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.059
more stories We can tell there's so many so much

00:57:15.059 --> 00:57:19.840
more that we can learn and explore so it It's

00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.239
really is a big limitation in addition to being

00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.639
dishonest, you know to not showing that lamb

00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:28.880
being sacrificed. It's also a big limitation

00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:32.780
in not showing the role that animals play in

00:57:32.780 --> 00:57:35.079
culture and the role that animals play in the

00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:40.340
wilderness. If art is meant to give us the full

00:57:40.340 --> 00:57:44.360
story of existence, then it should teach us something

00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:46.860
about what's happening in the forest, even when

00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:49.739
humans aren't out there. It should teach us about

00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:51.679
what's happening on the factory farm, even if

00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:55.179
there's no cameras there. It should teach us

00:57:55.179 --> 00:57:58.940
about what was happening in ancient Egypt and

00:57:58.940 --> 00:58:02.099
in ancient Israel and all of these places to

00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:04.219
the animals. We don't hear about the animals

00:58:04.219 --> 00:58:08.320
very much. So art definitely needs to shed a

00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:12.300
light on all of these aspects that so far storytelling

00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:16.480
has kept hidden. I'm very grateful that there

00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:19.679
are artists who are exploring these topics and

00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:24.079
showing a very hard reality to people. I tried

00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:26.519
to make a collection of paintings some years

00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:30.559
ago showing the pollution of the oceans and how

00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:33.440
all these animals were getting entangled in plastic

00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:39.619
bags and fish factory farms and all of that and

00:58:39.619 --> 00:58:45.159
it really drained me so much. I really got into

00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:50.519
a very deep sadness that I hadn't experienced

00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:52.840
before. And I had been vegan for a long time

00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:55.099
when I started that. That was like six years

00:58:55.099 --> 00:58:59.539
ago or so. I couldn't continue with that series

00:58:59.539 --> 00:59:03.760
because it was too much for me. But in a book

00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:07.199
like this one, Rainer the House Wolf, which is

00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:10.460
still like a vegan book and we're showing hard

00:59:10.730 --> 00:59:14.610
parts too, like when Rainer meets Patrick, he

00:59:14.610 --> 00:59:18.010
had just jumped from this truck on its way to

00:59:18.010 --> 00:59:20.469
the slaughterhouse. And there is an illustration

00:59:20.469 --> 00:59:24.150
where you can see the eyes of Patrick's friends

00:59:24.150 --> 00:59:28.429
being behind in the truck. There is this moment

00:59:28.429 --> 00:59:33.929
when finally Patrick and Rainer reach the nature

00:59:33.929 --> 00:59:36.809
channel, which is what they are seeking, the

00:59:36.809 --> 00:59:39.190
real nature. They think it's the nature channel.

00:59:39.929 --> 00:59:45.210
they see this beautiful landscape and I painted

00:59:45.210 --> 00:59:49.050
them where Patrick has a tear falling on his

00:59:49.050 --> 00:59:51.329
side and when I look at that illustration it

00:59:51.329 --> 00:59:55.210
makes me want to cry still in a very beautiful

00:59:55.210 --> 00:59:58.449
way because it's like these characters they are

00:59:58.449 --> 01:00:02.719
finally finding what they wanted to see what

01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:06.699
they dreamed about. And I think that that emotion

01:00:06.699 --> 01:00:09.360
can be transmitted to other people who are going

01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:12.880
to see this illustration and can be very, very

01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.960
powerful and maybe change the way they think.

01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:21.960
Yeah. And I think one sort of disadvantage that

01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.579
a lot of vegan outreach has is that people find

01:00:25.579 --> 01:00:29.360
it a very unpleasant topic. And there's so many

01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:32.409
unpleasant things out there in the world. You

01:00:32.409 --> 01:00:34.610
turn on the news and it's just one terrible thing

01:00:34.610 --> 01:00:39.389
after another. And we've been doing street outreach

01:00:39.389 --> 01:00:41.750
when we were in Kansas City. We did street outreach

01:00:41.750 --> 01:00:43.989
where we were just showing people directly images

01:00:43.989 --> 01:00:47.190
of factory farms. And some people were very grateful

01:00:47.190 --> 01:00:49.050
to see it, but there are other people who will

01:00:49.050 --> 01:00:50.710
just turn off immediately because they don't

01:00:50.710 --> 01:00:54.650
want to think about anything unpleasant. So I

01:00:54.650 --> 01:00:58.739
think there also need to be positive vegan works.

01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:03.000
Like this book, it explores some difficult subjects,

01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:07.639
but it's really just a fun dog adventure story

01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:12.780
at its heart. And a child can read it or a teenager

01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:16.579
or whoever and mainly have a good time at the

01:01:16.579 --> 01:01:18.519
same time as we're hoping they're going to reflect

01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:21.360
on some deeper issues as well. So I think we

01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:23.559
need to also find space in the vegan movement

01:01:23.559 --> 01:01:27.579
for a lot of humor and positivity. It's like

01:01:27.579 --> 01:01:30.579
you said, you became vegan out of love, not out

01:01:30.579 --> 01:01:33.239
of just seeing something terrible, right? So

01:01:33.239 --> 01:01:35.659
it's really that love that we have to inspire.

01:01:37.780 --> 01:01:41.579
And, and I, I love hearing about Patrick. I,

01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:44.940
uh, you know, he's, uh, he's actually the, the,

01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:47.480
uh, the, the logo of this podcast. You know,

01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:50.219
it's a, it's a big, uh, escaping as a slaughter,

01:01:50.380 --> 01:01:55.000
uh, a truck, uh, uh, distant to a slaughterhouse.

01:01:55.099 --> 01:02:00.739
Um, so that imagery is, is poignant for me. At

01:02:00.739 --> 01:02:03.059
the same time, and I told this story before,

01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:09.920
when I hired an artist, his name is Frank to

01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:14.599
design the logo for this podcast, and he presented

01:02:14.599 --> 01:02:19.639
the pig, I felt kind of disgusted. And, you know,

01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:22.480
I was conditioned all my life to think of pigs

01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:29.639
as being, you know, this dirty creature that

01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:36.739
does not deserve to be on any visual art project

01:02:36.739 --> 01:02:44.840
or anything of worth. And that's the very feeling

01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:49.860
of disgust I had was the reason why I selected

01:02:49.860 --> 01:02:54.769
that image. Do you think there is such a thing

01:02:54.769 --> 01:02:59.289
as an ugly animal, a disgusting animal versus

01:02:59.289 --> 01:03:02.929
a beautiful animal? Like dogs are the universally

01:03:02.929 --> 01:03:08.369
beloved animals and people see dogs and they

01:03:08.369 --> 01:03:12.349
smile. Why don't we smile when we see a pig?

01:03:16.170 --> 01:03:19.750
Well, pigs have such big personalities, you know,

01:03:19.789 --> 01:03:21.769
like when you get to meet these animals, even

01:03:21.769 --> 01:03:25.690
like chickens and goats, you see that they all

01:03:25.690 --> 01:03:28.650
shine. They have the things they like, the things

01:03:28.650 --> 01:03:31.699
they don't like. naughty things they like to

01:03:31.699 --> 01:03:36.119
do just as dogs as cats and I'm very grateful

01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:38.320
that I got the opportunity to work with these

01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:41.679
animals in different farms or visiting sanctuaries

01:03:41.679 --> 01:03:46.559
and see them and also my mom used to have a little

01:03:46.559 --> 01:03:51.019
farm with ducks chickens everything and I would

01:03:51.019 --> 01:03:56.409
enjoy feeding them being with them but there

01:03:56.409 --> 01:04:00.909
are some creatures like for example insects that

01:04:00.909 --> 01:04:06.170
some people might be freaked out by and I can

01:04:06.170 --> 01:04:09.909
understand like for example with cockroaches

01:04:09.909 --> 01:04:12.849
they will freak me out if I see them walking

01:04:12.849 --> 01:04:15.630
really fast towards me but I wouldn't want to

01:04:15.630 --> 01:04:18.090
kill them like I understand that all these animals

01:04:18.090 --> 01:04:23.309
have a the right to live and to be happy and

01:04:23.309 --> 01:04:30.269
do what they want to do. I understand the feeling

01:04:30.269 --> 01:04:33.869
of some people because they might never have

01:04:33.869 --> 01:04:36.150
connected with them in a different way. They

01:04:36.150 --> 01:04:38.929
might never have realized that these creatures

01:04:38.929 --> 01:04:42.110
have their lives. They're things that they like

01:04:42.110 --> 01:04:45.829
to do. For example, just going back to the book

01:04:45.829 --> 01:04:50.190
again, there are different animals, different

01:04:51.750 --> 01:04:55.489
beetles and insects that sing, they are sharing

01:04:55.489 --> 01:04:58.750
these little poems. And I think it's really cute

01:04:58.750 --> 01:05:01.469
and funny. They have their perspectives and things

01:05:01.469 --> 01:05:04.650
to say in the story. And it's in a way of a short

01:05:04.650 --> 01:05:08.150
poem. Yeah, there's a snail on the book as well.

01:05:08.329 --> 01:05:11.309
There's, you know, of course, people Many people

01:05:11.309 --> 01:05:13.969
might see pigs as filthy animals, but what about

01:05:13.969 --> 01:05:17.329
slugs? How many people out there are really telling

01:05:17.329 --> 01:05:21.190
the slugs story? There's animals that we feel

01:05:21.190 --> 01:05:25.210
even more disgust for than pigs. There are people

01:05:25.210 --> 01:05:28.409
who have pigs as pets, but most people, if they

01:05:28.409 --> 01:05:30.750
see a slug or they see a spider or something,

01:05:31.690 --> 01:05:34.469
they want it to go away as fast as possible.

01:05:36.590 --> 01:05:40.349
look at any animal and you see that it has eyes

01:05:40.349 --> 01:05:43.630
and it has a nose and it has ears you know they

01:05:43.630 --> 01:05:45.909
might come in a different form from our eyes

01:05:45.909 --> 01:05:48.929
ears nose mouth then it means that they also

01:05:48.929 --> 01:05:51.570
have a heart and they also have lungs and they

01:05:51.570 --> 01:05:56.170
if they share all of these features with us then

01:05:56.170 --> 01:05:58.070
why wouldn't they have consciousness why wouldn't

01:05:58.070 --> 01:06:01.349
they have a spirit and a soul and an imagination

01:06:01.349 --> 01:06:04.349
it doesn't make sense for them to share absolutely

01:06:04.349 --> 01:06:08.010
everything with humans except for these interior

01:06:08.010 --> 01:06:12.789
components. So no, I don't think there's such

01:06:12.789 --> 01:06:15.610
thing as an ugly animal. I think the ugliness

01:06:15.610 --> 01:06:19.409
is in the human eye. The ugliness is in the way

01:06:19.409 --> 01:06:25.070
that we have been indoctrinated into seeing some

01:06:25.070 --> 01:06:27.730
animals as beautiful, other animals as food,

01:06:27.809 --> 01:06:33.309
other animals as just scary or filthy or disgusting.

01:06:34.010 --> 01:06:36.590
You know, like in the United States and in many

01:06:36.590 --> 01:06:39.610
countries, the cow is something that people eat

01:06:39.610 --> 01:06:44.510
in India. The cow is is very sacred and they

01:06:44.510 --> 01:06:46.869
still get food from the cow through milking and

01:06:46.869 --> 01:06:48.989
through cheese. And, you know, there's a lot

01:06:48.989 --> 01:06:51.030
to say about India's relationship with cattle.

01:06:51.190 --> 01:06:54.849
But it just goes to show that how we feel about

01:06:54.849 --> 01:06:59.409
animals is very culturally, culturally constructed.

01:06:59.690 --> 01:07:02.570
It isn't really based in reality. When you actually

01:07:02.570 --> 01:07:06.030
look at reality, you see that all animals want

01:07:06.030 --> 01:07:09.130
to live. All animals want to escape pain. That's

01:07:09.130 --> 01:07:11.989
just scientific fact. That's why those animals

01:07:11.989 --> 01:07:16.670
have survived evolution or intelligent design,

01:07:16.750 --> 01:07:18.150
however you want to think about it. That's why

01:07:18.150 --> 01:07:20.349
animals are still here after millions of years

01:07:20.349 --> 01:07:23.489
is because they want to be here. And it's so

01:07:23.489 --> 01:07:28.150
smart to take Reynard, who is the dog, this beloved,

01:07:28.230 --> 01:07:32.829
universally beloved creature and in a way use

01:07:32.829 --> 01:07:37.469
him to introduce the reader to all of the other

01:07:37.469 --> 01:07:40.570
less beloved animals but who deserve that that

01:07:40.570 --> 01:07:44.789
kind of love so a really good call from you and

01:07:44.789 --> 01:07:51.150
really smart move and I guess my other hope about

01:07:51.150 --> 01:07:57.170
this book is to see to see it being adapted to

01:07:57.170 --> 01:08:01.280
maybe something like an animation or because

01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:05.119
I love to do that. I mean, I see the potential

01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:09.300
for that. It sounds like a wonderful thing that

01:08:09.300 --> 01:08:13.780
children would like to see to watch on Amazon

01:08:13.780 --> 01:08:17.199
primers or Netflix or something that would be

01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:20.640
wonderful. It will be cool. We'll start with

01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:24.359
trying to sell a few hundred copies, but we've

01:08:24.359 --> 01:08:26.539
also imagined such things, you know, because

01:08:27.509 --> 01:08:30.390
Raynard, everybody loves their dog. We do think

01:08:30.390 --> 01:08:33.029
Raynard is particularly awesome and charismatic.

01:08:34.010 --> 01:08:36.630
And people often stop him in the street and compliment

01:08:36.630 --> 01:08:40.090
him on his beauty. So I think, you know, children

01:08:40.090 --> 01:08:43.350
would love to see more of his adventures. And

01:08:43.350 --> 01:08:46.869
whether or not there is a cartoon at any point

01:08:46.869 --> 01:08:50.069
or an animation, I'm sure there will be a Raynard

01:08:50.069 --> 01:08:54.189
sequel at some point. Well, our dog Raynard has...

01:08:54.460 --> 01:08:57.380
at least two or three songs that we have composed

01:08:57.380 --> 01:09:02.060
for him. Yeah, he's inspired quite a lot. Yeah,

01:09:02.060 --> 01:09:05.159
but this this book also feels really musical,

01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:08.699
you know, the way it's meant it's meant to be

01:09:08.699 --> 01:09:11.020
read out loud. And when everything rhymes, it

01:09:11.020 --> 01:09:14.960
has this rhythm and this music in it. Some scenes

01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:19.380
are just like rap scenes, you know, so I see

01:09:19.380 --> 01:09:22.380
the potential for creating something really musical

01:09:22.380 --> 01:09:25.869
with it. Yes, definitely. That's another layer

01:09:25.869 --> 01:09:29.949
of awesomeness to it. And you do have a special

01:09:29.949 --> 01:09:33.050
relationship with that dog because, you know,

01:09:33.050 --> 01:09:37.869
if I think about the birds I care for and my

01:09:37.869 --> 01:09:42.449
cats, I would not be inspired to compose a song

01:09:42.449 --> 01:09:46.970
for my cat, like never in a million years, or

01:09:46.970 --> 01:09:50.729
write a book about her. Like she's a, you know,

01:09:50.729 --> 01:09:54.399
I love her. I truly do, but... Not to that point

01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:58.340
Yeah, well the songs that I have written about

01:09:58.340 --> 01:10:00.699
Reynard have been when we have been very far

01:10:00.699 --> 01:10:03.279
away from him You know, so it's like when you're

01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:05.880
missing somebody that's when you feel inspired

01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:07.800
if you were very far from your cat You might

01:10:07.800 --> 01:10:12.140
just pick up the guitar and start singing Okay,

01:10:12.340 --> 01:10:17.500
now I understand the context Yeah, they are love

01:10:17.500 --> 01:10:23.810
songs for Reynard My cat is a special case, too.

01:10:23.909 --> 01:10:25.930
You know, there are more difficult animals out

01:10:25.930 --> 01:10:29.689
there to love. You talked about how it's a vegan

01:10:29.689 --> 01:10:33.369
dog. Is it possible to have a vegan dog? Well,

01:10:33.449 --> 01:10:36.550
we think it is because he's alive and well and

01:10:36.550 --> 01:10:38.970
thriving. And sometimes he has too much energy

01:10:38.970 --> 01:10:42.229
for us. Yeah. Raynard is extremely energetic.

01:10:42.550 --> 01:10:47.619
And when we first were looking into whether you

01:10:47.619 --> 01:10:49.840
could raise a vegan dog, we discovered a dog

01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:52.699
called Bramble. Bramble the vegan dog, which

01:10:52.699 --> 01:10:55.699
was a border collie who was in the Guinness Book

01:10:55.699 --> 01:10:58.880
of World Records for being the longest lived

01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:03.420
dog ever. Bramble the vegan dog lived to 25 years

01:11:03.420 --> 01:11:06.899
of age. And it wasn't just a, you know, sort

01:11:06.899 --> 01:11:09.539
of freak incident because this woman's other

01:11:09.539 --> 01:11:13.680
dogs, they were also 19, 20, 21 years of age.

01:11:14.010 --> 01:11:17.850
All of them were living basically off of stir

01:11:17.850 --> 01:11:22.109
-fry, you know, off of rice and lentils and some

01:11:22.109 --> 01:11:24.989
soy protein and quite a lot of veggies. She would

01:11:24.989 --> 01:11:28.149
feed them just one time a day. Her name is Anne

01:11:28.149 --> 01:11:31.449
Heritage. And that was, you know, decades ago.

01:11:32.090 --> 01:11:35.810
Now there is a thriving industry where you can

01:11:35.810 --> 01:11:40.020
get vegan kibble for your dog. And we give our

01:11:40.020 --> 01:11:42.000
dogs some vegan kibble because we know that it

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:44.819
has the supplementation that they need. But we

01:11:44.819 --> 01:11:48.779
also cook them just a basic rice, lintel, and

01:11:48.779 --> 01:11:51.800
we save all of our vegetable scraps. When you're

01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:53.199
making food for yourself and you're chopping

01:11:53.199 --> 01:11:55.420
up carrots and broccoli, et cetera, and there

01:11:55.420 --> 01:11:58.079
are parts that get tossed out, we cook those

01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:01.880
into the food for our animals so that those nutrients

01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:04.960
don't go to waste and they contribute to their

01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:10.060
health. And I think life is a lot more flexible

01:12:10.060 --> 01:12:12.840
than we give it credit for. Just look at humans.

01:12:13.119 --> 01:12:15.180
There are humans that live off of all meats,

01:12:15.500 --> 01:12:18.699
like the Inuits. And then there are humans, such

01:12:18.699 --> 01:12:21.859
as vegans, who live off of all plants. There

01:12:21.859 --> 01:12:24.680
are bears that eat a lot of meat. You've got

01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:28.479
the panda bear, which evolved to only eat plants.

01:12:28.819 --> 01:12:33.060
So there is this flexibility in nature. And even

01:12:33.060 --> 01:12:36.069
wolves, which we think of as carnivores, Actually,

01:12:36.069 --> 01:12:39.250
wolves will eat quite a lot of plants when they're

01:12:39.250 --> 01:12:43.529
out just running in the forest. They will forage.

01:12:43.989 --> 01:12:48.550
They will chew on leaves and eat grass. And dogs

01:12:48.550 --> 01:12:50.670
especially have been domesticated for tens of

01:12:50.670 --> 01:12:52.850
thousands of years to have a much more flexible

01:12:52.850 --> 01:12:55.850
diet. So, you know, I think a lot of people have

01:12:55.850 --> 01:12:59.750
theories about can a dog be vegan. More important

01:12:59.750 --> 01:13:01.970
than theories are results. When you've got a

01:13:01.970 --> 01:13:04.170
dog who was in the Guinness Book of World Record,

01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:07.300
and most people's dogs are living to be 10 or

01:13:07.300 --> 01:13:09.720
12 years of age, if that, and this dog lived

01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:13.079
to be twice that length, those results are much

01:13:13.079 --> 01:13:15.720
more important than any preconceptions a person

01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:19.720
might have. So we have seen no shortage of energy.

01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:22.479
We have seen no health problems. Raynard's been

01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:26.640
vegan for several years now and he has beautiful

01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:31.079
fur and loads of energy and clean teeth. We adopted

01:13:31.079 --> 01:13:34.539
another dog whose name is Shanti. and she originally

01:13:34.539 --> 01:13:37.199
was not vegan and we noticed that she smelled

01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:40.600
pretty bad she had very bad breath yeah very

01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:43.920
strong odor and just a few months after being

01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:47.380
on a vegan diet a whole foods vegan diet she

01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:50.840
now smells much much better so you can do it

01:13:50.840 --> 01:13:52.640
for your own sake as well if you want to have

01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:56.600
a dog that doesn't smell bad but what a coincidence

01:13:56.600 --> 01:14:01.500
because i uh you know after setting my mind to

01:14:01.500 --> 01:14:06.859
interviewing you I discovered the story of an

01:14:06.859 --> 01:14:10.979
heritage and I wanted to interview her as well.

01:14:11.020 --> 01:14:15.779
And she followed me back on Instagram. So to

01:14:15.779 --> 01:14:18.560
be continued. But I think I would love to get

01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:22.020
her on the podcast as well and talk about her

01:14:22.020 --> 01:14:25.060
dog. Yeah. I mean, when she did it, she was kind

01:14:25.060 --> 01:14:27.560
of a pioneer. And now there are thousands and

01:14:27.560 --> 01:14:29.979
thousands of people raising dogs on a vegan diet.

01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:34.760
So it can definitely be done. Yes. And if it,

01:14:34.760 --> 01:14:39.239
you know, makes them smell better, I mean, I

01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:41.479
just, I have to say, you know, the smell of dogs,

01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:43.720
you know, it's not my favorite thing in the world,

01:14:43.859 --> 01:14:47.319
but I did notice that some dogs, you know, smell

01:14:47.319 --> 01:14:52.220
of the same, you know, race smell have different

01:14:52.220 --> 01:14:55.510
smells. And I did wonder, you know, Does it have

01:14:55.510 --> 01:14:59.609
to do with their lifestyle or maybe diet? So,

01:14:59.810 --> 01:15:03.310
yeah, it's a question I will ask her as well.

01:15:03.970 --> 01:15:06.850
Yeah. Well, you know, the same as people, if

01:15:06.850 --> 01:15:09.069
somebody is eating a lot of animals, then they

01:15:09.069 --> 01:15:12.090
have a highly acidic diet and it will make them

01:15:12.090 --> 01:15:17.390
smell to my nose much worse. Whereas vegans,

01:15:17.390 --> 01:15:19.369
you know, not trying to toot our own horn here,

01:15:19.369 --> 01:15:22.409
but I do think vegans smell better, taste better,

01:15:22.569 --> 01:15:25.460
look better. just all around, you know, your

01:15:25.460 --> 01:15:27.399
body is going to show that you're living a cleaner

01:15:27.399 --> 01:15:32.880
life. I agree. Yeah, I did notice that as well.

01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:39.279
So, Tom, Sol, thank you so much for having answered

01:15:39.279 --> 01:15:42.239
my questions. What a pleasant conversation I've

01:15:42.239 --> 01:15:48.460
had and what a wonderful project you've given

01:15:48.460 --> 01:15:55.350
birth to. I really wish you the success and hopefully

01:15:55.350 --> 01:15:59.649
an animation of that animation adaptation of

01:15:59.649 --> 01:16:03.170
the book. Did you want to add something before

01:16:03.170 --> 01:16:06.430
we stop the recording? I think it's been a wonderful

01:16:06.430 --> 01:16:09.149
conversation and we're very grateful for your

01:16:09.149 --> 01:16:12.170
invitation and it's been a pleasure speaking

01:16:12.170 --> 01:16:16.149
with you today. So yeah, we look forward to sharing

01:16:16.149 --> 01:16:19.670
Reynard's story and his teachings with readers

01:16:19.670 --> 01:16:23.449
of all ages. And we hope that everyone feels

01:16:23.449 --> 01:16:28.989
inspired also to find ways to share whatever

01:16:28.989 --> 01:16:31.149
they are feeling internally. How do you share

01:16:31.149 --> 01:16:34.050
that with others? For us, it was in making this

01:16:34.050 --> 01:16:36.649
book. For somebody else, it might be in making

01:16:36.649 --> 01:16:42.350
a blog post or a podcast or writing a postcard

01:16:42.350 --> 01:16:46.539
or... playing music on the street or who knows

01:16:46.539 --> 01:16:49.779
what form it might come in. Everybody has different

01:16:49.779 --> 01:16:53.479
skills and different gifts, but the key is to

01:16:53.479 --> 01:16:56.439
want to share with the world. Thank you everyone

01:16:56.439 --> 01:16:59.600
for listening. I kindly invite you to share this

01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:02.439
podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage

01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:06.420
more people to take action. Again, thank you

01:17:06.420 --> 01:17:09.439
so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday

01:17:09.439 --> 01:17:10.920
for a new episode.