WEBVTT 00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:04.280 So for today I wanted to cover the world of politics 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.240 and what's happening with the Trump administration 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:13.779 It's an eruption of news Truly, I mean you don't 00:00:13.779 --> 00:00:19.000 know where to pay attention to what exactly and 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:22.859 I really wanted to focus on the animal rights 00:00:22.859 --> 00:00:26.870 aspect of it and basically the impact of this 00:00:26.870 --> 00:00:30.629 Trump administration on the lives of animals. 00:00:31.449 --> 00:00:36.109 And to kick off the conversation, I wanted to 00:00:36.109 --> 00:00:39.990 ask you about this whole thing we keep hearing 00:00:39.990 --> 00:00:43.890 about at the price of eggs. What is this all 00:00:43.890 --> 00:00:49.090 about? The enterprise of X, did you say? Oh, 00:00:49.130 --> 00:00:53.630 the price of eggs. Oh, the price of eggs. Sorry, 00:00:53.710 --> 00:00:56.590 I don't know how I it's almost like AI beating 00:00:56.590 --> 00:01:00.490 back to you something that you didn't hear quite 00:01:00.490 --> 00:01:02.929 right or they didn't hear. Yeah, that's funny. 00:01:03.469 --> 00:01:07.109 The price of eggs. Oh, well, of course, that's 00:01:07.109 --> 00:01:12.989 the big drama in the news. Everything is about 00:01:12.989 --> 00:01:20.209 like eggs have become a symbol. of how outrageous 00:01:20.209 --> 00:01:25.870 food prices have become. And it's frustrating 00:01:25.870 --> 00:01:29.250 to see that because obviously bird flu and other 00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:33.969 factors have a lot to do with that. And some 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:37.430 parts of the egg industry and other animal ag 00:01:37.430 --> 00:01:41.750 industries are really doing quite well profit 00:01:41.750 --> 00:01:47.750 -wise. there's quite a bit out there about how 00:01:47.750 --> 00:01:50.310 they might be exploiting this situation with 00:01:50.310 --> 00:01:55.409 bird flu and with inflation and This whole chaos 00:01:55.409 --> 00:02:00.629 that Like you said flooding the zone type strategy 00:02:00.629 --> 00:02:04.870 that the Trump administration uses to overwhelm 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:10.009 us with information and with with conflicts and 00:02:10.009 --> 00:02:13.969 situations that we don't know how to react to 00:02:15.379 --> 00:02:19.319 So I think that, you know, as activists, we kind 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.580 of have to rise above all that noise because, 00:02:22.819 --> 00:02:26.020 and recognize it for what it is. It's a strategy 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:31.159 to distract us, to try to disempower us as a 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:33.960 society, as a movement, whatever the movement 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:39.539 is, if it's animal rights or food justice or 00:02:39.539 --> 00:02:46.680 climate crisis. they're all they're all part 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.479 of you know we we share a lot in common with 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:54.060 other movements in terms of how our main how 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:57.300 mainstream and dominant culture try to disempower 00:02:57.300 --> 00:03:00.840 and distract us from our goals and and this is 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:05.860 a classic kind of strategy flooding the zone 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:11.080 trying to overwhelm us to think that you know 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:16.370 we'll never be able to get the public's attention 00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:24.870 on what needs to be attended to. And so we have 00:03:24.870 --> 00:03:28.330 to kind of, you know, we have to rise above it. 00:03:28.349 --> 00:03:33.129 We have to be able to, it's a test of our ability 00:03:33.129 --> 00:03:39.750 to have discipline and also it's a test of our 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.659 Our character and our discipline and our and 00:03:43.659 --> 00:03:49.360 our ability to focus Probably more than anything 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:58.460 What bird flu Yeah Well, that's that's interesting 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:01.439 because no one you know, no one in the farming 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:04.860 industry or in the agriculture industry is denying 00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:10.419 They're all Talking about bird flu not maybe 00:04:10.419 --> 00:04:12.680 in the right way or the way we would like for 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:17.399 them to talk about it, but it's interesting because 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:26.160 the industry knows that it's a disaster and wants 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:31.079 the federal government to step in and give them 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:35.439 more subsidies, more disaster, what they call 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:40.769 disaster relief. And yeah, like you said, what 00:04:40.769 --> 00:04:44.490 bird flu? In terms of like a lot of the public, 00:04:44.569 --> 00:04:48.629 it's not even on their radar. It should be though, 00:04:48.709 --> 00:04:52.430 because it's in the news all the time. But it's 00:04:52.430 --> 00:04:56.389 not a big threat yet to human health, public 00:04:56.389 --> 00:05:01.350 health. So it's still on the fringes of people's 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:04.100 consciousness, probably. If that's what you mean 00:05:04.100 --> 00:05:08.399 by what bird flu. Yes, I mean, you don't hear 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:13.220 about it. You hear about the prices of eggs increasing, 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:17.240 but you don't hear about the costs. You don't 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.600 hear about the underlying problem. Yeah, that 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:24.259 the underlying problem, you know, is often associated 00:05:24.259 --> 00:05:29.620 with inflation and Sometimes on the on the left 00:05:29.620 --> 00:05:32.240 side of the media, you might see, oh, it's more 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:36.639 about like price gouging. The industry is trying 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:40.259 to get more out of consumers and exploiting the 00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:46.519 situation. So, but yeah, you rarely, you rarely 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.740 hear you know, you not only you don't hear about 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:52.839 it, but you don't see it. It's one of those hidden 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:56.689 realities. Like, you know, we don't see the mass 00:05:56.689 --> 00:06:01.589 extermination of birds. We don't often see sick 00:06:01.589 --> 00:06:05.329 dairy cows on the side of the road. However, 00:06:05.529 --> 00:06:09.509 there have been some really good reporting of 00:06:09.509 --> 00:06:13.009 this stuff and it's getting out there. But yeah, 00:06:13.009 --> 00:06:16.610 we'd love to see it out there 20 times as much 00:06:16.610 --> 00:06:21.430 as it is. And I would recommend looking through 00:06:21.430 --> 00:06:24.829 the content of Dr. Crystal Heath. She's been 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:30.199 on the forefront of covering this issue. And 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:34.839 she got me informed throughout this whole crisis. 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:40.379 So yeah, that would be one recommendation. Yeah, 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:43.639 Crystal and I have known each other for several 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:48.100 years now. And we share information and ideas 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:54.399 and a lot quite a bit. So happy to have her. 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.180 mentioned on the show because yeah, she's really 00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:03.579 one of her big strengths as a veterinarian is 00:07:03.579 --> 00:07:07.839 the ability to leverage media coverage on on 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.699 the subject of bird flu and animal agriculture 00:07:10.699 --> 00:07:16.680 in general. And that's, you know, something we 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:21.220 need more and more of. And it's really difficult 00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:26.279 to accomplish. So I I commend her for her abilities 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:30.519 to do that. To give you an example, I mean, recently 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:34.680 there has been a new investigation from Animal 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.139 Recovery Mission of another Fairlife supplier, 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:41.220 but this time it was a brand new state -of -the 00:07:41.220 --> 00:07:44.579 -art facility in Arizona. And I think it was 00:07:44.579 --> 00:07:47.920 two different suppliers of Fairlife that were 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:52.699 under investigation by ARM. They released the 00:07:52.699 --> 00:07:56.480 investigation to Great Fanfare, professional 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:01.240 PR people working on it and everything. And there 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:04.600 was some coverage in Arizona, local news coverage, 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.259 but Fairlife is based in Chicago and there was 00:08:07.259 --> 00:08:11.319 no coverage here. Nonetheless, we planned a rally 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.160 at Fairlife's headquarters on March 3rd, but 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:18.379 I could tell leading up to this that we weren't 00:08:18.379 --> 00:08:20.740 getting any local media coverage. And that was 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:24.160 the That was the critical factor in 2019 when 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:28.160 the first big arm Investigation was released 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:34.299 and the media Covered it across Not just locally 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:37.860 internet nationally and internationally. It was 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:43.500 quite a quite a media sensation and It was for 00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:45.740 a couple of weeks leading up to the rally that 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:48.279 we had at Fairlife headquarters So we had about 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.039 60 people meant many people that I didn't know 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.820 well either. As activists, they were just people 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.159 that heard about it and decided to come out. 00:08:58.460 --> 00:09:00.399 They felt it was an important thing to do. But 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:06.779 this time around 2025, the media wasn't there. 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:10.220 The media wasn't covering it. And as a result, 00:09:10.259 --> 00:09:14.500 we had about 25 people or so at the rally and 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:21.059 no media coverage. So, you know, this this is 00:09:21.059 --> 00:09:23.100 a you know we could get into a whole conversation 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:26.440 about how important it is to get our message 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.019 out in the media our point of view how we need 00:09:29.019 --> 00:09:31.759 to shift that narrative mainstream media narrative 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.100 more in our favor that's a whole discussion i 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:36.580 don't know if you really want to get into that 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:42.500 but crystal has been able to get an important 00:09:42.500 --> 00:09:46.299 perspective into mainstream media outlets and 00:09:46.299 --> 00:09:50.179 uh i think that's Fantastic. It's much needed. 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:55.980 Definitely. I'm more of the lane, I would say 00:09:55.980 --> 00:10:02.379 personally of creating our own media platforms 00:10:02.379 --> 00:10:05.919 and reaching people directly instead of having 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:12.220 to depend on the whims of big legacy media. Yeah, 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:15.789 yeah, absolutely. That's it. That's an important 00:10:15.789 --> 00:10:18.850 thing to really focus on maybe on independent 00:10:18.850 --> 00:10:21.190 media outlets that are more likely to cover the 00:10:21.190 --> 00:10:24.409 topic or even just create your own content if 00:10:24.409 --> 00:10:28.789 you can leverage an audience for sure. Yes, and 00:10:28.789 --> 00:10:31.649 she's also good on that. She's been after me, 00:10:31.669 --> 00:10:34.990 you know, trying to convince me to open a TikTok 00:10:34.990 --> 00:10:39.590 account. But yeah, social media game, you know, 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:45.389 I'm not that good at it. So, okay. piece of news 00:10:45.389 --> 00:10:49.350 coming from the Trump administration was the 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:56.429 the Brooke Rollins her not an election but her. 00:10:56.809 --> 00:11:00.049 Yeah, it's an election appointment. Appoint an 00:11:00.049 --> 00:11:04.730 appointed cabinet member. Yes, right. Yes. So 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:09.590 is it she's the agriculture secretary. That's 00:11:09.590 --> 00:11:12.879 right. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Do 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:17.120 you know who is Brooke Rawlins and is she in 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:23.039 any way sympathetic to the animal cause? Well, 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:25.820 I don't think she's sympathetic to the animal 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:30.500 cause, although she has said things about that 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:34.539 her policies would mitigate or reduce animal 00:11:34.539 --> 00:11:38.350 suffering. and be good for the environment. She 00:11:38.350 --> 00:11:44.470 has made statements about bringing in those benefits 00:11:44.470 --> 00:11:48.409 to what her policies are. Now, we did a little 00:11:48.409 --> 00:11:51.429 research into Brooke Rollins. I didn't know too 00:11:51.429 --> 00:11:55.850 much about her frankly until when I started hearing 00:11:55.850 --> 00:11:59.649 that she was Trump's pick. We started doing some 00:11:59.649 --> 00:12:05.809 research. We learned that she previously advocated 00:12:05.809 --> 00:12:10.870 for an elimination, her words actually, an elimination 00:12:10.870 --> 00:12:16.629 of farm subsidies and corporate welfare. That's 00:12:16.629 --> 00:12:20.110 not something you hear in political circles in 00:12:20.110 --> 00:12:26.009 the establishment Democrat or Republican, or 00:12:26.009 --> 00:12:30.149 even what we hear from progressives. We're not 00:12:30.149 --> 00:12:33.259 going to ever hear Well, Bernie Sanders might 00:12:33.259 --> 00:12:36.700 come out and say, yeah, a corporate welfare is 00:12:36.700 --> 00:12:39.659 bad, and we need to end it. And there, you know, 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.299 you might hear that from from some of the others 00:12:42.299 --> 00:12:48.879 too. But I don't think I've ever heard Cory Booker 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.980 or any of those kind of, you know, more progressive 00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:57.779 food reform type voices in Congress or in government 00:12:57.779 --> 00:13:02.539 say, we need an elimination. Not a cutting just 00:13:02.539 --> 00:13:05.759 an elimination of farm sub subsidies in other 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.919 words that that's a welfare program It's a socialist 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:13.259 program to prop up an industry that should really 00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:17.279 be standing on its own two feet and should the 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:22.139 free market should should be What allows this 00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:25.700 industry to sink or swim? And I thought that 00:13:25.700 --> 00:13:28.940 was pretty fascinating. It's more of a libertarian 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:36.009 type of and I think that was, I believe it was 00:13:36.009 --> 00:13:39.450 in 2016 when she made these comments. But we're 00:13:39.450 --> 00:13:42.669 still like, when we went to DC for our week of 00:13:42.669 --> 00:13:45.870 action, we hoped to confront her. She never ended 00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:49.450 up showing up at this conference. She was very 00:13:49.450 --> 00:13:51.950 much suspected to show up, but she wasn't on 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:58.370 the program. And she did make a virtual appearance. 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:04.570 But we still went there. We confronted a powerful 00:14:04.570 --> 00:14:09.570 group of panelists. And one of the parts of our 00:14:09.570 --> 00:14:13.330 message was, hey, you know, you guys are talking 00:14:13.330 --> 00:14:17.190 about farm subsidies and bailout money for bird 00:14:17.190 --> 00:14:19.870 flu, but you have a new secretary of agriculture 00:14:19.870 --> 00:14:22.889 that has previously called for an elimination 00:14:22.889 --> 00:14:26.950 of all of this. So where is your reality next 00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:32.350 to to hers or this Trump administration, if their 00:14:32.350 --> 00:14:37.909 goal is to make these massive cuts, how is it 00:14:37.909 --> 00:14:40.429 that you guys can be talking about how we need 00:14:40.429 --> 00:14:43.029 to increase disaster relief? Because there's 00:14:43.029 --> 00:14:47.389 more wildfires, there's more extreme climate, 00:14:47.730 --> 00:14:51.230 weather events, there's more drought, there's 00:14:51.230 --> 00:14:56.750 more zoonotic disease that is killing off. the 00:14:56.750 --> 00:14:58.809 animals that would otherwise be marketed and 00:14:58.809 --> 00:15:04.909 sold. And so there's such a disparity between 00:15:04.909 --> 00:15:11.330 what she has said and alleges to stand for and 00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:15.750 then what people in Congress and people even 00:15:15.750 --> 00:15:18.950 at this USDA conference where it's the biggest 00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:23.059 annual event. for the USDA and it's just huge. 00:15:23.139 --> 00:15:25.720 The room we were in had at least 500 people on 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.940 it, just listening to a panel. And then there 00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:32.100 were hundreds of other people in other parts 00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:36.820 of the conference. And they're all talking about, 00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:41.820 gee, I wonder how we can get more subsidies out 00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:45.120 of the government and get taxpayers to pay for 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.700 things that we don't want to pay for. There's 00:15:48.700 --> 00:15:51.320 a dissonance there that that is really striking. 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.299 Do you think she will make those cuts? Well, 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:01.080 I think she's going to be at the whim of Trump. 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:06.799 And I think you've seen Trump go back and forth 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:10.600 with tariffs and using carrot and stick. It's 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:15.879 really not that unusual. But it's very exaggerated 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.919 in Trump's case because he likes to make a show 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.840 of everything. But honestly, this whole carrot 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.320 and stick approach with using tariffs or something 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:32.019 like that isn't new. If you guys don't do this, 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.220 we're going to punish you by cutting your subsidies 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:39.080 or cutting the Department of Education or we're 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.379 going to impose a 250 % tariff on French wines 00:16:42.379 --> 00:16:47.919 or whatever. All these outrageous things are 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:52.879 really more just kind of It's a chess game. It's 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.759 kind of a maybe chess is too sophisticated for 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.259 Trump I would say probably but it's more of just 00:16:58.259 --> 00:17:02.679 like a It's a negotiation type thing to try to 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:05.519 you know force people to do things that you want 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.680 want them to do And I don't think she's gonna 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:12.569 have much autonomy I think she's probably gonna 00:17:12.569 --> 00:17:18.769 have to go along with whatever he decides to 00:17:18.769 --> 00:17:25.170 do, or probably get ousted. But the point is 00:17:25.170 --> 00:17:27.049 though, we've already seen, it's not a question 00:17:27.049 --> 00:17:30.589 of if, because we've already seen major cuts. 00:17:31.329 --> 00:17:34.170 We've already heard about farmers and ranchers 00:17:34.170 --> 00:17:37.130 in the US. And when we think about farmers and 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:39.069 ranchers, we think of these poor people that 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.480 you know from the dust bowl era that when subsidies 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.720 were really necessary actually for farmers, we 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.960 think of these poor people that can barely make 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:51.259 a living, and that's not really representative 00:17:51.259 --> 00:17:54.279 of who farmers and ranchers are today. They're 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.180 much more corporate, they're much larger in scale. 00:17:57.819 --> 00:18:01.740 And so, but we've already heard them outraged 00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:04.839 about getting letters from the USDA saying that 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.640 they can't count on these different programs. 00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:12.839 that are sources of revenue for them. So it's 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.240 already happening. It could get reversed. I think 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.119 there's gonna be a lot of back and forth, quite 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.119 frankly, because that's Trump's style. A lot 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:28.420 of back and forth, a lot of chaos. And where 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:32.359 that will end up is anyone's guess, quite honestly. 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.420 But this administration wants to make major cuts. 00:18:36.009 --> 00:18:39.190 and already has made major cuts, not necessarily 00:18:39.190 --> 00:18:46.089 in the areas that would be beneficial to humanity 00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:51.569 or the public at large, but more to the wealthy, 00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:55.289 right? So when you hear stories about the USDA 00:18:55.289 --> 00:19:00.670 cutting food aid, so farmers were getting paid 00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:05.740 to supply food to Indiana's food bank. for poor 00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:08.640 people, those kind of programs are getting cut. 00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:16.539 But it remains to be seen, are the really unjust 00:19:16.539 --> 00:19:20.259 subsidies that are going to corporate firms and 00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:24.000 organizations that don't need tax dollars, are 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:29.380 those going to be cut or eliminated? I'm not 00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:33.359 really sure where that's going to land. That's 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:37.839 what we're really looking for. And I guess this 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:43.240 was my next question. Do we want those cots? 00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:48.599 You know, and, you know, if we do, where exactly 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.240 do we want those cots? How is it, you know, most 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.160 beneficial for animals? Yeah, that's a great 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.039 question. And I'm not sure. That's a tough thing 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.640 to answer because I mean, On the one hand, there's 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:05.059 a simple answer. And that is that we're a fan 00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:10.440 of subsidies when they actually promote a greater 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.240 good, a public good, like providing food to hungry 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:24.559 people or to eliminating the waste of food. Obviously, 00:20:24.619 --> 00:20:26.839 there's a lot of animals' lives that are wasted 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:32.569 because food is so much wasted. And subsidies 00:20:32.569 --> 00:20:35.869 that help people buy food, like food stamp programs 00:20:35.869 --> 00:20:38.190 and things like that, that help the environment. 00:20:39.309 --> 00:20:43.049 Obviously, we're a fan of housing, education. 00:20:44.089 --> 00:20:48.430 I think anything that produces a public good 00:20:48.430 --> 00:20:55.990 is a subsidy of some value. But the reality is 00:20:55.990 --> 00:21:00.269 that up to now, subsidies have been used to support 00:21:00.269 --> 00:21:07.990 animal agriculture in a hugely unfair way, because 00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:14.250 so much of the billions have gone to animal agriculture. 00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:19.230 And if you're truly trying to reduce animal suffering 00:21:19.230 --> 00:21:23.089 and create a more sustainable food system, then 00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:29.619 that subsidy system has to shift. because all 00:21:29.619 --> 00:21:34.740 subsidies are is a way to incentivize the agriculture 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:37.339 industry. They're gonna go wherever the money, 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:43.500 wherever the money is. And so that's why we're 00:21:43.500 --> 00:21:49.099 so on Congress because they are going to decide 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.500 where those incentives are going, those financial 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:54.920 incentives are going to be for the next five 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.049 years. And so we need to hold them accountable 00:21:58.049 --> 00:22:03.769 because that's the top level decisions being 00:22:03.769 --> 00:22:06.289 made in our food system. And if we're not there, 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:09.529 then it's left to industry lobbyists, meat industry, 00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:14.130 egg industry, dairy industry, and those congressional 00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:16.829 officials, those elected officials. If we're 00:22:16.829 --> 00:22:18.650 not in the room, if we're not in those spaces 00:22:18.650 --> 00:22:22.329 of power, then we don't even get heard. We're 00:22:22.329 --> 00:22:25.440 out leafletting somewhere. And these people are 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.559 making huge decisions on our food system in the 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:35.420 future of our food system. So, um, we have to 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:38.619 be in these spaces of power to get anything done, 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:43.720 to make any change. Yes. Let's, let's talk about 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:49.680 this. Um, because in our last conversation, you 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:54.279 made the point that everyone is in the animal 00:22:54.279 --> 00:23:00.099 protection space focused on passing pushing laws 00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:05.079 and not you know focusing on the subsidies the 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:10.259 money and now it's it's on the news you know 00:23:10.259 --> 00:23:14.980 because of all of those potential cuts and but 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:20.579 still you're you're You haven't, you're the only 00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:29.140 one basically who is interested in that. And 00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:33.720 yeah, it's, it's, it's greatly disappointing 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:40.019 to say the least. Why do you think there's this 00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:45.079 obstacle for animal protection organizations? 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:50.420 Why are they not? with you, meeting those lobbyists, 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:54.859 or trying to get a meeting with that new Secretary 00:23:54.859 --> 00:24:00.660 of Agriculture. Why are they still focused on 00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:04.500 the law part, you know, reforming the law or 00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:09.680 passing a new welfare law? Oh, great question. 00:24:09.819 --> 00:24:13.460 I mean, some of them are, and many of them aren't. 00:24:13.539 --> 00:24:19.039 As you said, The mainstream side of our movement 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:24.640 and most other social movements are on the reformed 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:30.579 side of the equation. The more grassroots side 00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:34.440 of a movement, which we identify with at Free 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:38.079 From Harm, is more on what we call the transformational 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:43.319 side of the movement. We want to focus people's 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.730 attention on the big picture change. we feel 00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:52.109 that people are ready and perfectly capable of 00:24:52.109 --> 00:24:58.289 understanding that the long -term vision and 00:24:58.289 --> 00:25:00.950 Necessity is a transition to a plant -based food 00:25:00.950 --> 00:25:03.809 system and that we need to start that process 00:25:03.809 --> 00:25:10.549 now So that if that's the vision that we put 00:25:10.549 --> 00:25:13.150 out for people and the reason why is because 00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.470 of all the problems associated with with exploiting 00:25:16.470 --> 00:25:18.609 and killing billions of animals like bird flu 00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:23.250 just being one example. If that becomes the vision, 00:25:23.890 --> 00:25:25.950 then things like whether we should get animals 00:25:25.950 --> 00:25:31.690 out of cages or whether we should, those become 00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:41.549 kind of just not important because we've already 00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:44.529 moved the public. that we're already moving the 00:25:44.529 --> 00:25:47.890 public, they're already accepting this premise 00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:52.970 or vision that the future is a plant -based transition 00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:55.769 that needs to start now. It might take time. 00:25:55.789 --> 00:25:58.029 We are under no illusions that this will happen 00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:07.509 tomorrow, but it needs to start now. And so, 00:26:08.710 --> 00:26:12.410 most mainstream groups are already invested in 00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:16.740 their campaigns, whether it be for cage free 00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:23.480 eggs or crate free pigs, or whatever it is, guagua. 00:26:25.420 --> 00:26:29.279 And so it's very difficult to ask. It's a big 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:34.240 ask to make to ask people, hey, see, give up, 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.160 you know, drop that because there's something 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.160 bigger on the horizon here. Bird flu is creating 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.359 an opportunity that we must seize upon. There's 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.740 a weak spot in this industry that we can exploit 00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:51.700 and leverage to our advantage like never before, 00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:56.720 and we need to seize on this opportunity. Not 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.519 everybody sees that opportunity and is willing 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:11.130 to shift gears. and maybe give up or severely 00:27:11.130 --> 00:27:14.170 reduce campaigns that they've invested a lot 00:27:14.170 --> 00:27:18.930 of time and money into. And it's understandable, 00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:22.750 but it's also unfortunate because movements that 00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:27.049 succeed have to adapt and innovate and seize 00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:29.769 on opportunities that present themselves that 00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:34.470 it doesn't matter what we're involved in. The 00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:38.759 only reason why we've seized upon subsidies and 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:42.980 bird flu is because there are two hot point issues 00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:47.099 that we feel can really rally public support 00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:51.859 across the political spectrum. The issue of subsidies, 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.759 for example, this idea that we should be charging 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.000 the industry for bird flu and other disasters 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.200 that they create rather than taxpayers resonates 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:10.740 across the political spectrum. Bird flu being 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:16.079 a threat that the industry has created because 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.759 of the extreme conditions it raises and kills 00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:22.119 billions of animals. That's another thing that 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.259 we can seize upon to build mass public support. 00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:27.980 If we want to build a mass movement, then it 00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:30.079 has to be not a luxury product, but something 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:32.779 that actually affects people's day -to -day lives. 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.450 And these things do. money in their pockets, 00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:40.329 food on their plate does. And that's what we're 00:28:40.329 --> 00:28:44.569 talking about with bird flu and subsidies. So 00:28:44.569 --> 00:28:51.650 my hope is that as we continue down this path 00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:55.670 and do more actions and build our teams in different 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:59.089 cities and confront power holders in our food 00:28:59.089 --> 00:29:01.349 system and show people how this can be done, 00:29:01.369 --> 00:29:04.309 that these people can be accessed and should 00:29:04.309 --> 00:29:07.599 be. And here's how we can do it. Here's an example. 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:10.180 Here's another example. Here's what our team 00:29:10.180 --> 00:29:12.779 in San Antonio did. Here's what our team in Denver 00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:19.079 did or in San Francisco. And it starts to hopefully 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:25.440 create and it hopefully kind of starts to inspire 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:32.519 people to want to seize upon point issues like 00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.440 this, like bird flu and subsidies, where there's 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.200 a huge potential for public's popular support. 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:44.579 It's just a movement principle that I learned 00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:47.740 that other movements have used to their advantage. 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:54.480 So, for example, in the Black Lives Matter space, 00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:58.880 certain incidents like the killing of George 00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:04.539 Floyd was seized upon as a tremendous opportunity 00:30:04.539 --> 00:30:10.240 to bring a consciousness about police brutality. 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:15.779 They did a magnificent job of seizing upon certain 00:30:15.779 --> 00:30:22.380 trigger events like that and amplifying it into 00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:27.299 the public space, into the media. And as a result, 00:30:27.339 --> 00:30:31.380 they were able to shift public opinion on their 00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:36.259 cause dramatically, from like 30 % approval to 00:30:36.259 --> 00:30:40.539 60, 70 % approval. And that's what we wanna do. 00:30:40.539 --> 00:30:43.559 We wanna create a mass shift in the media narrative, 00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:47.039 but also in the consciousness of Americans about 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.539 this industry that they would otherwise trust, 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.799 animal agriculture, which they generally trust 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:58.539 and think is doing the right thing. We need to 00:30:58.539 --> 00:31:05.859 cast doubt. and create a questioning for that. 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:10.359 And so things like bird flu become the catalyst, 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:15.940 the trigger for us to shift public thinking about 00:31:15.940 --> 00:31:24.259 our food system. You remind me of a story I told 00:31:24.259 --> 00:31:28.980 before, but of a conservative podcaster, huge 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.579 conservative podcaster. And I was listening to 00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:39.779 her talk about a coat she was going to wear for 00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:44.980 an event. And the coat was made in fur. And then 00:31:44.980 --> 00:31:48.640 she said, Oh, my gosh, now I'm going to get those 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.920 PETA letters about The coat every time I mentioned 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:57.799 foie gras or fur or any luxury products of the 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:02.119 kind I get all of those letters and And then 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:06.539 she said but why are they? criticizing my fur 00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:11.119 coat when you know every morning I drink a glass 00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:16.519 of milk and You know milk is basically exploiting 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:20.259 cows Um, so how does that make sense? Why are 00:32:20.259 --> 00:32:23.839 they not, you know, criticizing, uh, my consumption 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.339 of dairy and, you know, my, my blood was boiling. 00:32:28.700 --> 00:32:32.000 I was thinking, Oh my gosh, why have they not 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:36.779 made the time to make that case for her? You 00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:40.359 know, they focused on, um, criticizing her fur 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:42.720 coat and her consumption of foie gras, which 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:46.619 is, you know, rare, um, but not, uh, talking 00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:51.769 about the real suffering, the animal exploitation, 00:32:53.829 --> 00:32:57.730 the dairy industry, the meat industry, or bringing 00:32:57.730 --> 00:33:02.950 those arguments about taxpayer money going to 00:33:02.950 --> 00:33:07.490 subsidies that would have resonated with a conservative. 00:33:08.289 --> 00:33:14.589 So yeah, such a frustrating thing to witness. 00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:22.299 Did you want to comment on that? I'm just listening 00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:27.559 now. I know I've seen, I've seen situations like 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:32.819 that too, and tempted to respond and then, you 00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:36.180 know, you have to be careful what you say. And 00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:42.220 I, yeah, I know what I've experienced exactly 00:33:42.220 --> 00:33:47.890 those situations too. I'll just do it at that. 00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:53.390 Something I never had the opportunity to ask 00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:57.690 you. So I did an episode on the end of the antibiotic 00:33:57.690 --> 00:34:03.390 area. And the scientist I interviewed, he's not 00:34:03.390 --> 00:34:07.670 vegan. He's not, you know, an animal activist. 00:34:08.250 --> 00:34:11.989 But, you know, he understands he has a good grasp 00:34:11.989 --> 00:34:14.849 of reality. He's not in denial of the impact 00:34:14.849 --> 00:34:19.090 of the animal industry. And at the end of the 00:34:19.090 --> 00:34:22.369 interview, he told me how, you know, factory 00:34:22.369 --> 00:34:24.949 farming would not have been possible without 00:34:24.949 --> 00:34:28.969 antibiotics. And then I asked him, you know, 00:34:29.369 --> 00:34:35.429 is big pharma a big client of a big act? Basically, 00:34:35.489 --> 00:34:38.929 is there this uh, an holy union between those 00:34:38.929 --> 00:34:44.150 two industries. And, um, he was hesitant. He 00:34:44.150 --> 00:34:47.989 said, um, maybe, you know, I'm not the right 00:34:47.989 --> 00:34:51.750 person to ask that. So let me ask you this question. 00:34:52.309 --> 00:34:56.650 Have you ever, uh, noticed, um, something of 00:34:56.650 --> 00:34:59.739 the sort, you know, um, uh, a partnership, a 00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:03.440 presence of big pharma, um, maybe, uh, in DC 00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:06.980 recently, uh, among all of those big ag, uh, 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:11.340 lobbyists, um, are they present? Um, because 00:35:11.340 --> 00:35:15.000 you know, they're big ag is one of their biggest 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.739 clients. They, they purchase all of those antibiotics 00:35:17.739 --> 00:35:21.840 from them. Well, what you're alluding to is, 00:35:21.940 --> 00:35:24.059 you know, what we, what we often call it, like, 00:35:24.059 --> 00:35:26.860 uh, Bill Moyers would call the pillars of support 00:35:26.860 --> 00:35:31.380 that that financially or otherwise support something 00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:34.900 that's needed by that industry or that institution. 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:39.320 And, you know, when we look at animal ag and 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:42.860 how privileged it is in terms of subsidies and 00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:48.480 benefits and how protected it is by our tax dollars, 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:51.500 we also have to look at all those pillars of 00:35:51.500 --> 00:35:54.639 support. You know, the pharma industry, which, 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:59.030 yeah. I mean, I've seen statistics where 60 % 00:35:59.030 --> 00:36:03.449 to 70 % of antibiotics are sold to animal ag 00:36:03.449 --> 00:36:06.590 clients. It's somewhere around there. I've seen 00:36:06.590 --> 00:36:11.070 many sources cite that. But also, beyond big 00:36:11.070 --> 00:36:17.610 pharma, we don't realize that a lot of the crops 00:36:17.610 --> 00:36:20.809 that are grown serve the animal ag industry. 00:36:21.869 --> 00:36:27.300 And the money. the capital firms, the banks, 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:34.119 the lending institutions that the USDA uses for 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:38.599 these loan programs, 0 % loans, no interest for 00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:41.340 farmers or ranchers or corporations or whoever 00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:48.860 they're lending to. And so looking at these pillars 00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:54.030 of support and this, you know, what we call a 00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:57.010 power map kind of lays out who are the big players 00:36:57.010 --> 00:37:02.929 here and who are targets that are valuable targets 00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:06.489 that are actually funding or some otherwise supporting 00:37:06.489 --> 00:37:09.690 animal ag. We should really look at that whole 00:37:09.690 --> 00:37:14.809 big picture, that whole tree, pharma being a 00:37:14.809 --> 00:37:17.409 big one there too, but also the money. Where's 00:37:17.409 --> 00:37:25.250 the money coming from? Because Banks and investors, 00:37:25.869 --> 00:37:32.230 even just wealthy individual investors are having 00:37:32.230 --> 00:37:37.389 a huge enabling effect to help this industry 00:37:37.389 --> 00:37:41.309 continue to prosper. We have to look at those 00:37:41.309 --> 00:37:46.269 as targets. You made a very good point on social 00:37:46.269 --> 00:37:52.460 media about farmers who grow legumes, who grow, 00:37:52.460 --> 00:37:56.280 you know, plant -based food, and how, you know, 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.559 you were supporting them. You were telling them, 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.360 you know, I support subsidies for you, but not 00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:07.519 for those, you know, animal agriculture lobbyists, 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.380 and how they were not very receptive to your 00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:16.789 support. Why is that? Yeah, that's a good question. 00:38:18.170 --> 00:38:21.230 In some cases, they took offense. You could tell 00:38:21.230 --> 00:38:25.130 that for them, I think if you try to get inside 00:38:25.130 --> 00:38:31.230 of their mind, my best guess is that they're 00:38:31.230 --> 00:38:34.170 benefiting from both what they call specialty 00:38:34.170 --> 00:38:36.610 crops, which are crops grown for human consumption, 00:38:37.349 --> 00:38:41.710 as well as crops grown for animal feed. to benefit 00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:44.690 the animal ag industry somehow. And perhaps they 00:38:44.690 --> 00:38:47.230 also have animal ag interests, financial interests 00:38:47.230 --> 00:38:54.829 that could shape their views on it. But we found 00:38:54.829 --> 00:38:58.269 them to be rather hostile. We were a little bit 00:38:58.269 --> 00:39:02.309 in their face, I would say, but not at the beginning. 00:39:02.570 --> 00:39:05.190 We actually started out really, we kind of eased 00:39:05.190 --> 00:39:08.869 into it. We tried to find that common ground 00:39:08.869 --> 00:39:17.010 and say, we really support and we're against 00:39:17.010 --> 00:39:21.730 this idea that the farm bill doesn't really benefit 00:39:21.730 --> 00:39:25.369 specialty crop producers and therefore the cost 00:39:25.369 --> 00:39:29.050 of those goods are outrageous when compared to 00:39:29.050 --> 00:39:32.230 highly subsidized meat and dairy and egg products. 00:39:32.690 --> 00:39:37.250 That doesn't make sense to us. And they didn't 00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:40.599 want to speak They didn't want to say anything 00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:47.019 in support of that. And on the one end, and then 00:39:47.019 --> 00:39:49.860 on the other end, they were, they were offended 00:39:49.860 --> 00:39:53.960 by the suggestion of that. And many of them just 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:59.980 walked away. So, yeah, I think they look at it 00:39:59.980 --> 00:40:04.079 as one big thing. There's no sep, like for us, 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.219 it's a separation. We want to advance a planet 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:10.829 based transition. For them, it's like, oh no, 00:40:11.130 --> 00:40:14.789 we need all of it. We need to support all of 00:40:14.789 --> 00:40:20.590 it. And there was one woman who, I don't know 00:40:20.590 --> 00:40:24.110 her name, but she was part of an entourage of 00:40:24.110 --> 00:40:28.949 lobbyists for the specialty crop industry. And 00:40:28.949 --> 00:40:31.469 she said, we don't want to take anything away 00:40:31.469 --> 00:40:34.329 from animal ag. We're not asking anything from 00:40:34.329 --> 00:40:38.360 them. I said, I realize that you're asking Congress 00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:43.900 for more subsidies, and I support that. I said, 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:49.400 but at the same time, you know, as well as I 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.480 do that the massive subsidies go to animal ag. 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:55.800 And we can see it, it's in, you know, it's on 00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:01.440 paper. It's black and white here. And that was 00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:04.559 a gotcha question. She got really offended. And 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.300 she asked me to leave. And the person she was 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:09.920 sitting with, this gentleman said, get out of 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:13.199 my face. You need to get out of my face right 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.980 now. And that's when the conversation ended. 00:41:16.659 --> 00:41:19.059 So yeah, it wasn't really very pleasant. But 00:41:19.059 --> 00:41:22.239 I think it was very revealing. You learn so much 00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:27.860 when you go to DC. And if you want to get involved 00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:30.139 in our actions, do it. And even if you just want 00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:32.019 to go to observe, you're going to learn a lot. 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:34.380 And that's what I tell people. You don't have 00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.480 to participate. You could actually just go and 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:42.400 learn about what the culture in DC is like. And 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.539 what you'll find is you ask whether what we're 00:41:45.539 --> 00:41:50.300 doing works. Let your experience answer that 00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:53.619 question rather than us telling you, oh, yeah, 00:41:53.619 --> 00:41:56.780 it works. Go and you'll see every other interest 00:41:56.780 --> 00:42:01.539 group. You'll see every imaginable interest group. 00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:04.909 wearing t -shirts or dressed a certain way to 00:42:04.909 --> 00:42:11.150 express their cultural or ethnic identity, every 00:42:11.150 --> 00:42:15.230 group under the sun is in Congress meeting with 00:42:15.230 --> 00:42:21.469 Congress people and displaying their identity 00:42:21.469 --> 00:42:26.909 as that interest group. Every interest group 00:42:26.909 --> 00:42:30.250 under the sun is there. So if this didn't work, 00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:33.179 If it didn't work to be there in the spaces of 00:42:33.179 --> 00:42:35.860 power, none of these groups would be there spending 00:42:35.860 --> 00:42:41.119 the money to do it. So asking whether something 00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:43.760 like that works is basically asking, well, should 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:47.699 we be absent or should we be present? And what 00:42:47.699 --> 00:42:51.179 do you think the answer is? You know, come on. 00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:54.079 Should we be absent? We're currently absent. 00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:57.460 And how impactful or effective are we actually 00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:06.690 being? in this context, you know. Not just, you 00:43:06.690 --> 00:43:09.389 know, when you say interest groups, people should 00:43:09.389 --> 00:43:12.550 know that even foreign nations are there. Oh, 00:43:12.570 --> 00:43:19.389 absolutely. Yes. Lots of foreign interests. In 00:43:19.389 --> 00:43:24.429 terms of trade deals and all that. Absolutely. 00:43:25.869 --> 00:43:29.329 What's the price tag of being present? How much? 00:43:29.550 --> 00:43:33.650 would we have to fundraise to get that going? 00:43:35.389 --> 00:43:39.849 It depends on how many people you want to engage 00:43:39.849 --> 00:43:44.469 in it. And I think it can be pretty low cost. 00:43:44.650 --> 00:43:48.349 I mean, we do it with minimal cost. We don't 00:43:48.349 --> 00:43:52.789 pay to get into the big events. We just kind 00:43:52.789 --> 00:43:58.940 of walk in. We're not registered. We're not members 00:43:58.940 --> 00:44:01.880 of some of these organizations that host these 00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:09.260 events. So that's what makes it a lot more affordable 00:44:09.260 --> 00:44:11.780 is because we're there to get a message out. 00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:16.360 And in some cases, we try to blend in and we 00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:20.039 try to interview people to get their insights. 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:23.119 and get that footage so we can show our supporters 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:25.440 this is what it's like on the inside. It's really 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:29.360 important that you understand what their values 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:32.099 are, what their concerns are. And you might even 00:44:32.099 --> 00:44:34.760 be surprised by some of the statements you hear 00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:38.519 about plant -based proteins and that developing 00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:42.099 market from really high -level officials. You 00:44:42.099 --> 00:44:45.619 might even be surprised at what you hear. You 00:44:45.619 --> 00:44:47.760 might even be surprised to learn that they agree 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:52.949 with us. privately quote unquote but publicly 00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:56.369 they have a very different position on supporting 00:44:56.369 --> 00:45:01.429 animal acts so. It always makes sense to go there 00:45:01.429 --> 00:45:08.550 and you can do it with minimal cost by. By not. 00:45:10.469 --> 00:45:13.230 Becoming the members are not you know we're people 00:45:13.230 --> 00:45:16.369 on the outside where the grassroots we're we're 00:45:16.369 --> 00:45:21.500 we're looking. to access powerful people that 00:45:21.500 --> 00:45:27.179 typically only provide access to big donors or 00:45:27.179 --> 00:45:29.260 people that can get them something that have 00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:32.280 an influential position. We're trying to break 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:38.719 through that corruption and cronyism to get a 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:42.659 message heard in a very difficult, it's not easy 00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:45.880 work because we're not insiders, we're outsiders. 00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:52.340 We don't want to be insiders, really. We don't 00:45:52.340 --> 00:45:56.519 want to be high paid lobbyists. And we don't 00:45:56.519 --> 00:45:59.699 want to play that game. We want to expose it 00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:02.219 because it needs to change if we're going to 00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:05.539 see any major change to our food system. But 00:46:05.539 --> 00:46:10.000 don't we want to hire one of those high paid 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:16.739 lobbyists so they can do their magic? My theory 00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:20.780 is we'll never outspend or outsmart the animal 00:46:20.780 --> 00:46:24.559 ag game. They have the best lobbyists, the best 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:27.360 trade reps, they have the most influence in Congress. 00:46:29.139 --> 00:46:32.000 If we try to play their game, we'll lose because 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.800 they're going to outsmart us and outspend us. 00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:37.559 We don't have those kind of resources. But what 00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:40.880 we do have is potentially a movement to build 00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:45.320 popular support to demand a change. That's the 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:51.059 whole spirit of the grassroots, is that change 00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:57.860 comes from the everyday working people, and that 00:46:57.860 --> 00:47:03.699 the real change comes there and is thrust upon 00:47:03.699 --> 00:47:07.460 those in power, rather than playing this kind 00:47:07.460 --> 00:47:11.449 of insider game. Now, at a very late stage, when 00:47:11.449 --> 00:47:14.570 we have the popular support we need, then if 00:47:14.570 --> 00:47:17.869 you look at like a model like Bill Moyer put 00:47:17.869 --> 00:47:25.070 out in the 70s, the stage seven and eight is 00:47:25.070 --> 00:47:28.969 codifying that change into law. And that's when 00:47:28.969 --> 00:47:36.869 we need powerful insiders, lawyers, attorneys, 00:47:37.250 --> 00:47:42.349 lobbyists, Congress people, politicians, to codify 00:47:42.349 --> 00:47:45.150 that change into law and make sure that it sticks. 00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:51.730 That's when those power players are needed. But 00:47:51.730 --> 00:47:56.829 the path to get there is all about people driving, 00:47:57.710 --> 00:48:00.730 the movement driving that change from the outside. 00:48:05.150 --> 00:48:08.480 So it's not like we don't recognize the importance 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:13.539 of insiders and reformists, we do, but their 00:48:13.539 --> 00:48:17.539 role is more valuable when we've already built 00:48:17.539 --> 00:48:19.719 the popular support we need. We are nowhere near 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.719 that yet. So the laws we're going to see passed 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:26.699 now are going to be inconsequential. That might 00:48:26.699 --> 00:48:30.840 save a couple of hundred or thousands of animals, 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:33.760 but in the grand scheme of things are going to 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.840 have no real impact on shifting the power structure 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:42.159 in our favor, if that makes sense. Yes. Let me 00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:45.280 shift then the conversation to that. This question 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.480 of popular support. The day after the election, 00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:53.960 I took the mic and talked about how we needed 00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:57.639 to reach out to conservatives, that this was 00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:01.099 a necessity. Why? Well, because the politicians 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:07.739 on the right who come to power, if they have 00:49:07.739 --> 00:49:13.500 no vegan constituency, like zero vegan voted 00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:17.920 for them, then how are they even going to be 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:22.579 remotely interested in the animal cause? Like 00:49:22.579 --> 00:49:26.619 we need to build that constituency. We need to 00:49:26.619 --> 00:49:33.860 not gave our vote freely to one party over another, 00:49:34.460 --> 00:49:38.179 and let them, you know, fight for our vote. Let's 00:49:38.179 --> 00:49:43.400 be one of those important segments of the voting 00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:48.000 population. What do you make of that? Yeah, I 00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:55.599 think the key is probably to zoom in on demands 00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:59.489 that do have wide popular support. across the 00:49:59.489 --> 00:50:02.230 political spectrum like I had mentioned earlier. 00:50:02.289 --> 00:50:08.670 And I think that's what we're trying to do. And 00:50:08.670 --> 00:50:17.090 so, yeah, I think unfortunately, we are engaged 00:50:17.090 --> 00:50:21.130 in the political process, but we're also outside 00:50:21.130 --> 00:50:23.610 of it. And the benefit of not being tethered 00:50:23.610 --> 00:50:28.639 to the process is that you can speak freely and 00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:33.119 build support outside of that system and not 00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:37.599 worry about whether you're going to have, if 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:39.420 you say something, you're gonna have a problem 00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:42.639 with certain donor groups or advertisers that 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:45.199 are gonna come down on you and ask you to change 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:50.980 your view. We're not tethered to special interests 00:50:50.980 --> 00:50:59.960 and moneyed interests. by working on the outside 00:50:59.960 --> 00:51:06.519 in, we're able to focus on values and issues 00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:10.340 that are important to people across the political 00:51:10.340 --> 00:51:15.239 spectrum. What matters to us is that working 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:21.280 people, like people making 50 or 40 or a thousand 00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:25.389 or less a year, are the people we're really trying 00:51:25.389 --> 00:51:29.369 to appeal to because they're the ones struggling 00:51:29.369 --> 00:51:33.070 with food prices. They're the ones that are going 00:51:33.070 --> 00:51:37.309 to be the first to suffer from climate events, 00:51:38.090 --> 00:51:43.849 climate crisis from bird flu and zoonotic diseases 00:51:43.849 --> 00:51:50.889 and pollution from the industry. So when we appeal 00:51:50.889 --> 00:51:55.880 to that group, We're we're kind of cutting through 00:51:55.880 --> 00:52:04.400 The different Political divides Because we're 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:06.980 focusing instead on issues that actually matter 00:52:06.980 --> 00:52:15.679 to people of all stripes What do you think of 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:20.340 the fact that now in the in Trump's cabinet there 00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:26.929 are many not that many, but a few ethical vegetarians, 00:52:28.369 --> 00:52:34.409 even vegan, people who care about animals. I'm 00:52:34.409 --> 00:52:38.030 thinking of Tulsi Gabbard, I'm thinking of Vivek 00:52:38.030 --> 00:52:42.170 Ramaswamy, who tweeted, I think, a day before 00:52:42.170 --> 00:52:47.070 the election that animal welfare would become 00:52:47.070 --> 00:52:50.849 a priority or something like that for the conservative 00:52:50.849 --> 00:52:57.969 party. Is this a way in for the movement? Well, 00:52:58.630 --> 00:53:02.130 it's a political calculation, I guess that we 00:53:02.130 --> 00:53:05.269 we have to make and I'm not saying I don't think 00:53:05.269 --> 00:53:12.000 I've made it myself, but Obviously, it's kind 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.760 of a chess game, because if you become allied 00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:19.880 or associated with a certain political figure 00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:28.340 that is very controversial, or creates a lot 00:53:28.340 --> 00:53:30.820 of controversy just by the very nature of who 00:53:30.820 --> 00:53:38.139 they are, then you risk alienating different 00:53:38.139 --> 00:53:42.230 parts of your your support base. And so I think 00:53:42.230 --> 00:53:48.650 the way we approach that has to be done pretty 00:53:48.650 --> 00:53:52.130 carefully, strategically, and we should just 00:53:52.130 --> 00:53:55.949 be honest with people that we're looking, we're 00:53:55.949 --> 00:54:00.469 not, you know, we're not with them on X, Y, and 00:54:00.469 --> 00:54:08.190 Z. We don't support, you know, brutal dictatorships. 00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:17.280 We don't support cutting aid for HIV testing 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.480 and some of the things that they support or that 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:30.699 they have championed. We only see this as an 00:54:30.699 --> 00:54:34.940 opportunity on the animal issue or on the food 00:54:34.940 --> 00:54:39.070 system issue. to the extent that they share our 00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:41.050 views. And then they're also gonna say things 00:54:41.050 --> 00:54:45.349 that are going to probably blow their position 00:54:45.349 --> 00:54:48.269 up because that's what these kind of people seem 00:54:48.269 --> 00:54:52.269 to do. The people that Trump attracts seem to 00:54:52.269 --> 00:54:58.670 be unstable in the sense of saying one thing 00:54:58.670 --> 00:55:02.269 one day that sounds great to one group. And then 00:55:02.269 --> 00:55:05.639 that's the nature of politics, isn't it? We went 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:07.800 to a Senate hearing on the farm bill a couple 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.860 of weeks ago and Cory Booker, much to many people's 00:55:12.860 --> 00:55:16.619 demise or disappointment, spoke in defense of 00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:19.039 the boutique pig industry and how it really needed 00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:22.300 to be protected. He could have chosen to speak 00:55:22.300 --> 00:55:25.900 about a number of different issues, like the 00:55:25.900 --> 00:55:29.860 need for supporting plant -based proteins. Now, 00:55:30.179 --> 00:55:32.880 a lot of people responded to those videos that 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:36.840 we put out. on that as how disappointed they 00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:38.239 were with Cory Bicker, because they thought he 00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:40.119 was vegan, and they thought he was supportive 00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:48.179 of a plant -based food system. In my mind, I 00:55:48.179 --> 00:55:50.480 share the disappointment, but I also realize 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:55.019 that a politician has multiple interest groups 00:55:55.019 --> 00:55:59.280 to represent and to speak on their behalf. They're 00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:01.780 going to say things that are seemingly contradictory 00:56:01.780 --> 00:56:04.400 because they're there to try to please many different 00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:08.159 interest groups. So don't expect them to be your 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:11.559 hero. Just realize this is their role. And what 00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:17.139 we need out of them is to make policies that 00:56:17.139 --> 00:56:21.679 advance our cause. That's what we should be razor 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:26.789 focused on. Not whether they said something That 00:56:26.789 --> 00:56:31.929 pleases us personally or offends us because honestly. 00:56:33.349 --> 00:56:35.429 That's a distraction like we have to realize 00:56:35.429 --> 00:56:40.909 their politicians. And the only role. That we 00:56:40.909 --> 00:56:44.889 should see as you know valuable here is the relationship 00:56:44.889 --> 00:56:49.050 is about advancing the cause and not whether 00:56:49.050 --> 00:56:52.090 you know whether they they actually act regardless 00:56:52.090 --> 00:56:54.510 of what they say what what they do is really 00:56:54.510 --> 00:57:02.039 what matters. in the end. The reason why I come 00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:06.900 back to this idea of gaining grounds with the 00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:10.900 more conservative crowds is really, you know, 00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:16.039 from my point of view, I don't see the other 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:23.400 side having, you know, very optimistic political 00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:26.619 future, a very promising political future. I 00:57:26.619 --> 00:57:33.000 think we're in for a long conservative right, 00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:38.619 you know, era. And I feel like if we don't do 00:57:38.619 --> 00:57:41.260 something in, you know, gaining some grounds 00:57:41.260 --> 00:57:46.519 with them, we won't make any progress in the 00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:51.079 coming future. Yeah, and I guess that's why I 00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:57.260 I fearfully think about this this issue and try 00:57:57.260 --> 00:58:06.059 to rise the the alarm on on that. Okay. A few 00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:11.280 words about wildlife. We talked a lot about farms 00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:18.340 and big ag and but what about wildlife? So of 00:58:18.340 --> 00:58:22.420 course, there's a question of the wall. That's 00:58:22.420 --> 00:58:26.880 one ecosystem ticking bomb. And then now there's 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:33.239 the question of clearing forests. How do we prioritize, 00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:37.519 you know, this over that? So I know that your 00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:41.960 focus is, you know, farm animals, but then you 00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:45.559 see everything happening with wildlife and you 00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:50.719 think, well, Should we also advocate for change 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:57.039 on that field? What is the priority and why and 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:04.539 how do we balance all of that? Well, by advancing 00:59:04.539 --> 00:59:07.480 a plant -based food system and challenging the 00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:12.739 dominance of animal agriculture through whatever 00:59:12.739 --> 00:59:16.119 subsidies or bird flu or whatever. issue we choose 00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:19.119 to focus on that we feel is the most resonating 00:59:19.119 --> 00:59:24.480 to the public. We're also definitely thinking 00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:29.880 about all of the other casualties and side effects 00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:35.760 of that change. So by reducing animal agriculture's 00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:45.690 power and growth, we're also reducing that effect 00:59:45.690 --> 00:59:50.070 that it has on wildlife. And most people, of 00:59:50.070 --> 00:59:54.250 course, don't realize just how routine it is 00:59:54.250 --> 01:00:03.110 to decimate wildlife in regenerative agriculture, 01:00:03.130 --> 01:00:07.670 but also in factory farming, where wildlife are 01:00:07.670 --> 01:00:12.460 just seen as a threat to domestic animals. are 01:00:12.460 --> 01:00:20.159 simply eradicated, poisoned, trapped. It's incredible. 01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:25.619 I mean, you know, millions of wildlife, I can't 01:00:25.619 --> 01:00:30.219 remember the last I heard, but it's very routine 01:00:30.219 --> 01:00:34.000 even on small farms. I mean, I hear about small 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:36.559 scale farmers, hobby farmers saying, you know, 01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:40.099 they had to... trap and poison all the foxes 01:00:40.099 --> 01:00:43.119 and all the all the animals within a certain 01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:49.340 range on their property to protect the handful 01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:53.139 of pigs, you know, a group of 10 or 15 pigs that 01:00:53.139 --> 01:00:58.079 they have or a flock of chickens. It's very routine 01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:02.079 in the mindset of this industry to do that. So 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:08.139 by reducing their by reducing the power and dominance 01:01:08.139 --> 01:01:12.219 of that industry were the one of the benefits 01:01:12.219 --> 01:01:18.039 is more protection of wildlife. Yes, and we often 01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:22.519 need to be reminded of that. I think you're right. 01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:24.659 I think that's something that we should really 01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:30.440 think about. Speaking out about more in our messaging, 01:01:30.780 --> 01:01:34.860 because wildlife is important to a lot of people. 01:01:35.469 --> 01:01:40.449 again across the political spectrum. So we could 01:01:40.449 --> 01:01:45.949 be capturing interest and support from people 01:01:45.949 --> 01:01:52.130 that that are wildlife sensitive. With the tariffs 01:01:52.130 --> 01:01:58.670 now, and with America being caught off from lots 01:01:58.670 --> 01:02:01.630 of foreign products because of those tariffs, 01:02:02.329 --> 01:02:06.840 do you think that the farm activities will intensify 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:12.179 now in the US. Because of the tariffs? Yes, because 01:02:12.179 --> 01:02:17.179 now the difference of the difference of prices 01:02:17.179 --> 01:02:20.940 will make consumers prioritize, you know, products 01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:26.079 made in the US instead of foreign products. Well, 01:02:26.219 --> 01:02:29.460 that's the claim that that those you know, like 01:02:29.460 --> 01:02:33.320 Trump that are promoting and enacting tariffs 01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:35.780 is that, oh, it's definitely going to make us 01:02:35.780 --> 01:02:41.460 stronger economically. You know, the reality 01:02:41.460 --> 01:02:49.659 is, is that the economy is so global in nature 01:02:49.659 --> 01:02:53.880 that there's, I don't really see how that that's 01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:56.980 going to be possible. So like, I was listening 01:02:56.980 --> 01:03:01.329 to some trade reps from like the soybean and 01:03:01.329 --> 01:03:08.030 corn and sorghum industries, and they rely on 01:03:08.030 --> 01:03:11.710 equipment that is made in other countries, parts 01:03:11.710 --> 01:03:14.090 from other countries to make farm equipment, 01:03:14.269 --> 01:03:17.949 which they absolutely, critically need to produce 01:03:17.949 --> 01:03:22.730 that crop. So I think that it sounds really good 01:03:22.730 --> 01:03:27.289 to say, yeah, we're gonna slap tariffs on this 01:03:27.289 --> 01:03:30.059 country. punish them for the trade imbalance 01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:34.360 that they have with us. But it's far more complicated 01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:42.260 than it seems on the surface. And we're interdependent 01:03:42.260 --> 01:03:49.519 on other economies. And so this tariff idea is 01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:54.079 a black and white highly reductionist, simplistic 01:03:54.079 --> 01:04:00.960 way of of it's more about if we're gonna make 01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:04.280 America great again, then we have to level the 01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:07.280 playing field and make it more fair for Americans, 01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:16.059 for American industry. But it's really kind of, 01:04:16.119 --> 01:04:19.920 it's more of a distraction than a reality. And 01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:22.900 I'm not an expert in this. It's a very complicated 01:04:22.900 --> 01:04:27.059 subject, but I know that When you hear from the 01:04:27.059 --> 01:04:29.340 industry people, the ag industry people, they 01:04:29.340 --> 01:04:32.699 say they don't want tariffs. They think that 01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:34.440 it complicates things and it makes things more 01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:38.380 expensive for them. Of course, they're very careful 01:04:38.380 --> 01:04:40.340 about what they say and how they say it because 01:04:40.340 --> 01:04:45.039 they don't want to get in trouble from the Trump 01:04:45.039 --> 01:04:48.340 administration and get punished or something. 01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:50.400 They're real careful about what they say, but 01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:56.139 they don't want tariffs. Fascinating. Okay. So 01:04:56.139 --> 01:04:59.579 I guess my last question, Robert is what, what 01:04:59.579 --> 01:05:03.199 is on your radar right now in terms of, you know, 01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:06.199 um, things coming from the Trump administration, 01:05:06.260 --> 01:05:11.280 um, actions, um, um, organized by free from harm, 01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:17.199 um, uh, you know, big conventions, um, you know, 01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:20.780 what should we be on the lookout for in terms 01:05:20.780 --> 01:05:26.369 of politics and the animal cause? Yeah, that's 01:05:26.369 --> 01:05:30.690 a great question. I think what we'll be focusing 01:05:30.690 --> 01:05:35.250 on, we started the year with a surprisingly active 01:05:35.250 --> 01:05:40.909 February. We weren't really expecting that to 01:05:40.909 --> 01:05:43.030 be the case, but these opportunities presented 01:05:43.030 --> 01:05:48.730 themselves and we decided to seize upon the DC 01:05:48.730 --> 01:05:52.190 events that came up at the end of February. So 01:05:52.190 --> 01:05:55.590 one of them was an organization that is made 01:05:55.590 --> 01:05:58.489 up of all of the 50 secretaries of agriculture, 01:05:58.690 --> 01:06:03.050 the highest level officials in agriculture for 01:06:03.050 --> 01:06:09.929 each of the 50 states. Speakers from the top 01:06:09.929 --> 01:06:11.849 level of Congress people that are making just, 01:06:11.849 --> 01:06:14.070 you know, deciding on the farm bill, the chairman 01:06:14.070 --> 01:06:19.699 of the Committee on Agriculture. on the Senate 01:06:19.699 --> 01:06:22.119 side, on the House side, these are the top level 01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:26.699 people. So we said, oh, these are great opportunities 01:06:26.699 --> 01:06:36.280 to get in front of them. But we also have to 01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:40.619 balance that with also potential for media coverage 01:06:40.619 --> 01:06:45.019 and media interest. So events that we know the 01:06:45.019 --> 01:06:49.000 media is going to cover. And sometimes it's called 01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:53.400 media jacking. There's a history of that. Somebody, 01:06:53.539 --> 01:06:55.639 I don't know who coined that phrase, but media 01:06:55.639 --> 01:06:59.559 jacking is the idea of not expecting the media 01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:02.579 to cover you or your events and come to you, 01:07:02.579 --> 01:07:07.519 but actually going to where you know they're 01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:10.900 interested in covering and staging something 01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:17.510 that gets covered because they're there. That 01:07:17.510 --> 01:07:20.750 makes a lot of sense. It's funny how, you know, 01:07:20.869 --> 01:07:23.329 for so many years you complain about, oh, you 01:07:23.329 --> 01:07:25.750 know, the media doesn't care about these issues. 01:07:26.110 --> 01:07:27.849 It's not that they don't care about those issues. 01:07:27.869 --> 01:07:30.070 It's that they already have an agenda to cover 01:07:30.070 --> 01:07:33.230 these other big events with big people's names. 01:07:34.889 --> 01:07:40.050 And maybe we should just accept that and say, 01:07:40.130 --> 01:07:45.170 okay, let's get access to these venues and stage 01:07:45.170 --> 01:07:49.369 our actions there. So to me, that makes a lot 01:07:49.369 --> 01:07:52.110 of sense. It's not easy, not easy work. It's 01:07:52.110 --> 01:07:54.010 not always easy to get access. Sometimes you 01:07:54.010 --> 01:07:57.230 just walk in and other times it's a lot more 01:07:57.230 --> 01:08:02.489 difficult, but it's always worth a try. The problem 01:08:02.489 --> 01:08:08.469 with this kind of style of activism is that there's 01:08:08.469 --> 01:08:12.670 a lot of unknowns. And so most people doing activism 01:08:12.670 --> 01:08:17.699 would prefer a very routine formulaic predictable 01:08:17.699 --> 01:08:20.840 kind of action where they know they're going 01:08:20.840 --> 01:08:23.739 to show up at this time, at this location, signs 01:08:23.739 --> 01:08:26.159 are going to be provided. All they have to do 01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:28.479 is kind of like maybe study their talking points 01:08:28.479 --> 01:08:31.439 a bit, practice them. And then it's just having 01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:35.159 these outreach conversations or holding a screen 01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:38.699 and showing video like in a cube of truth. And 01:08:38.699 --> 01:08:41.260 I understand why a lot of people are really attracted 01:08:41.260 --> 01:08:44.890 to that kind of very structured a predictable 01:08:44.890 --> 01:08:50.369 form of activism. But like Erika Chenoweth says, 01:08:50.630 --> 01:08:53.149 that one of the key traits of a successful social 01:08:53.149 --> 01:09:03.210 movement is to innovate and that expecting change 01:09:03.210 --> 01:09:07.689 by doing the same thing over and over again is 01:09:07.689 --> 01:09:12.930 a recipe for failure. You have to adapt and innovate 01:09:12.930 --> 01:09:16.060 with the times and with what's happening and 01:09:16.060 --> 01:09:18.659 seize on those opportunities that present themselves. 01:09:19.100 --> 01:09:22.199 And that's hard because it means actually dropping 01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:24.420 other plans that you may have spent a lot of 01:09:24.420 --> 01:09:28.779 time and thought on and saying, oh my gosh, this 01:09:28.779 --> 01:09:30.739 is coming up next week. We have to seize upon 01:09:30.739 --> 01:09:35.779 this opportunity. So we like to think of ourselves 01:09:35.779 --> 01:09:41.000 as being small enough and and resilient enough 01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:43.939 to adapt to those things and seize on those opportunities. 01:09:46.579 --> 01:09:50.539 And getting in front of the biggest players in 01:09:50.539 --> 01:09:55.779 the food system and having conversations like 01:09:55.779 --> 01:10:00.640 getting face to face is critical because of how 01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:04.199 easily it is for them to ignore you, ignore all 01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:06.979 of your supporters emails and phone calls. But 01:10:06.979 --> 01:10:08.659 when you're in front of them and you're in front 01:10:08.659 --> 01:10:11.659 of their audience of people that admire them, 01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:15.359 they kind of have to listen to you. There's no 01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:19.920 way around it. So being in those spaces of power 01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:24.420 and being in front of those in power, it's not 01:10:24.420 --> 01:10:27.579 a new concept. It's something that movements 01:10:27.579 --> 01:10:31.920 across the globe have done and continue to do 01:10:31.920 --> 01:10:35.760 because it is very impactful. And I think our 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:42.680 movement is in dire need of growing that effort. 01:10:43.600 --> 01:10:47.779 Incredible. A great way to end the conversation. 01:10:48.619 --> 01:10:51.279 And yes, innovation, so important. Professionally, 01:10:51.460 --> 01:10:54.479 I always say innovation is not a luxury, it's 01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:59.539 a necessity. You can't do business without innovation, 01:10:59.960 --> 01:11:05.520 not in this highly competitive world. Yes, definitely. 01:11:05.699 --> 01:11:10.680 So I, I, I agree with everything you said. Did 01:11:10.680 --> 01:11:12.939 you want to add something, Robert, before we 01:11:12.939 --> 01:11:17.180 stop the recording? I'm good, I think. Yeah. 01:11:17.659 --> 01:11:21.359 Well, unless you have any. No, well, I'm good. 01:11:21.899 --> 01:11:25.760 And thank you. Thank you so much for having, 01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:30.479 you know, for coming back to the show. And I'm, 01:11:30.539 --> 01:11:32.380 every time I talk with you, I learned something 01:11:32.380 --> 01:11:39.109 new. And I'm you know, re -inspired by the cause. 01:11:40.090 --> 01:11:43.470 Sometimes, you know, you look at activism and 01:11:43.470 --> 01:11:50.489 you think you get very disappointed and uninspired, 01:11:50.729 --> 01:11:53.970 but having, you know, someone who understands 01:11:53.970 --> 01:11:56.449 things from a macro level, you know, explain 01:11:56.449 --> 01:12:00.829 how, you know, we could make progress and making 01:12:00.829 --> 01:12:07.060 things clear is, is very appreciated. So thank 01:12:07.060 --> 01:12:11.399 you, Robert. Oh, my pleasure. Yeah, it's, it's 01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:15.520 always a good learning experience both ways. 01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:20.380 You know, I, I think we're all learning, hopefully, 01:12:20.600 --> 01:12:25.239 and applying that. Because activism is a we like 01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:28.819 to say activism is a craft. It's something that 01:12:28.819 --> 01:12:32.810 that you refine and improve over time and through 01:12:32.810 --> 01:12:35.710 experience, just like any other kind of craft 01:12:35.710 --> 01:12:40.750 with your hands. And so it's not something you 01:12:40.750 --> 01:12:44.210 just learn and then stop. And then I've mastered 01:12:44.210 --> 01:12:46.989 this. I've become vegan and I've become a great, 01:12:48.569 --> 01:12:51.069 been great at these arguments. I can defeat every 01:12:51.069 --> 01:12:55.090 single argument that is thrown at me. I've mastered 01:12:55.090 --> 01:12:59.600 the craft. It's done. It's never done. It's an 01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:05.739 ongoing evolution, just like life. And I think 01:13:05.739 --> 01:13:09.819 if we looked at it as a craft more that we'd 01:13:09.819 --> 01:13:11.979 also be a lot easier on ourselves because yeah, 01:13:12.619 --> 01:13:14.159 sometimes you only have one chance to get it 01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:16.260 right. When you carve that piece of wood, if 01:13:16.260 --> 01:13:19.800 you screw up and cut it too thin, it's going 01:13:19.800 --> 01:13:21.319 to show and people are going to see you made 01:13:21.319 --> 01:13:23.439 a mistake. Just like when you get up in front 01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:25.140 of an audience and you don't say exactly what 01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:27.619 you wanted to say, you got one shot. And maybe 01:13:27.619 --> 01:13:29.920 it didn't work out exactly how you wanted it, 01:13:29.979 --> 01:13:33.420 but you really remember the next time then, this 01:13:33.420 --> 01:13:36.560 is how I really want to say it. So, you know, 01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:41.279 it's a process, it's a craft and we should just 01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:44.819 kind of embrace that and, you know, learn as 01:13:44.819 --> 01:13:58.810 we go. and give of your time and of your money 01:13:58.810 --> 01:14:03.850 to free from harm. I think it would be well invested. 01:14:04.369 --> 01:14:07.350 Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite 01:14:07.350 --> 01:14:09.810 you to share this podcast with the vegans you 01:14:09.810 --> 01:14:13.470 know. Let's encourage more people to take action. 01:14:14.350 --> 01:14:17.029 Again, thank you so much for caring and I will 01:14:17.029 --> 01:14:19.569 see you next Tuesday for a new episode.