WEBVTT 00:00:00.110 --> 00:00:03.310 My name is Ryan and you are listening to The 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:07.389 Vegan Report. For decades, we've held a clear 00:00:07.389 --> 00:00:11.390 and widely accepted picture of what prehistoric 00:00:11.390 --> 00:00:15.830 humans were like. Central to that narrative is 00:00:15.830 --> 00:00:20.030 the belief that they followed a so -called Paleo 00:00:20.030 --> 00:00:23.910 diet, a diet consisting of whole foods heavily 00:00:23.910 --> 00:00:27.969 focused on animal proteins while avoiding grains 00:00:27.969 --> 00:00:32.429 and legumes. However, a groundbreaking study 00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:36.609 published this very year challenges that claim, 00:00:37.109 --> 00:00:40.789 according to this research, our ancestors' diets 00:00:40.789 --> 00:00:45.270 were predominantly plant -based, including grains 00:00:45.270 --> 00:00:50.210 and legumes. This revelation suggests that early 00:00:50.210 --> 00:00:53.530 humans might have been more accurately described 00:00:53.530 --> 00:00:57.929 as gatherer -hunters rather than hunter -gatherers. 00:00:58.670 --> 00:01:03.670 How? How did such a misconception about prehistoric 00:01:03.670 --> 00:01:07.950 humans arise? And what does this new discovery 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:14.370 tell us about our identity as a species? To answer 00:01:14.370 --> 00:01:18.689 those questions, I am joined by Dr. Hadar Ahidouf, 00:01:18.930 --> 00:01:23.109 the lead researcher behind this study. Dr. Ahid 00:01:23.109 --> 00:01:26.549 Roof is based at the Laboratory for Ancient Food 00:01:26.549 --> 00:01:30.129 Processing Technologies at Haifa University's 00:01:30.129 --> 00:01:35.349 Zinman Institute of Archaeology. So Hadar, your 00:01:35.349 --> 00:01:41.189 paper is titled, Starch -Rich Plant Foods, 780 00:01:41.189 --> 00:01:46.290 ,000 Years Ago, Evidence from Aeculian Percussive 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:52.079 Stone Tools. Now, I thought about my knowledge 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:56.079 of history. And I think I can pretty much go 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.640 back to 3000 years before Christ. And that's 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:05.439 the extent of my historical knowledge. So for 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:10.050 me, 780 ,000 years means absolutely nothing. 00:02:10.270 --> 00:02:15.569 I have no conceptual historical context framework 00:02:15.569 --> 00:02:20.110 to understand that number. So I guess my first 00:02:20.110 --> 00:02:23.750 question for you is, can you give me some context 00:02:23.750 --> 00:02:28.710 about what was, you know, being human like 700 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:33.389 ,000 years ago? And what was life like? What 00:02:33.389 --> 00:02:36.849 was, you know, the what did the earth look like? 00:02:36.889 --> 00:02:41.430 Yeah, so Actually, it's a really big question. 00:02:42.990 --> 00:02:49.210 I can tell that our ancestors, there were few 00:02:49.210 --> 00:02:53.969 ancestors through the prehistory of life until 00:02:53.969 --> 00:02:57.530 we know that we are the homo sapiens ourselves. 00:02:58.770 --> 00:03:03.849 There are a few types of hominins, if you would 00:03:03.849 --> 00:03:06.330 like to call it like this, but also before them, 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.819 there were the kind of types that were more similar 00:03:09.819 --> 00:03:14.460 to other species that we know. So if I'll just 00:03:14.460 --> 00:03:18.039 mention them for you in the podcast, there were 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:21.080 Australopithecus, and there are also different 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.180 kinds of Australophorensis, for example, and 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:27.659 the source of them, we can talk about Africa 00:03:27.659 --> 00:03:33.379 as kind of the source of human, if you would 00:03:33.379 --> 00:03:36.599 like to call it like this. For example, Lucy, 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:41.259 she's the most famous one. She dated for 3 .2 00:03:41.259 --> 00:03:44.860 million years ago, and she was the host of Pitechus 00:03:44.860 --> 00:03:49.879 of Forensics. And she's one of the oldest species 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:56.039 of human that we can call them like this. And 00:03:56.039 --> 00:04:03.919 when we are talking here about 780 ,000 years 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:12.710 ago, we can talk about hominins. So hominins 00:04:12.710 --> 00:04:21.009 are the ancestors that went out from Africa and 00:04:21.009 --> 00:04:24.209 spread all over the world. And the hominins, 00:04:24.230 --> 00:04:29.670 if you would ask which type of person that went 00:04:29.670 --> 00:04:32.970 out from Africa, I can tell you that it's... 00:04:32.910 --> 00:04:37.610 homo erectus, although there are few opinions 00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:43.569 for here and there, but it's kind of the mainstream 00:04:43.569 --> 00:04:51.089 think that the homo erectus is the type of human 00:04:51.089 --> 00:04:54.209 that went out of Africa. And if we're talking 00:04:54.209 --> 00:04:58.110 about the surrounding, so the surrounding was 00:04:59.819 --> 00:05:03.439 Like we can imagine from movies. So it was kind 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:08.379 of savannahs and Forests with high and big trees 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:13.720 and big mamas and also small animals But all 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:17.879 was really wild and big and massive and dramatic 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.860 When we are traveling today, you know in the 00:05:20.860 --> 00:05:25.459 cities or even in villages It's so so so different. 00:05:25.459 --> 00:05:30.769 So if you go back to 3 ,000 years from now, as 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:35.009 you mentioned, we can say that the surrounding 00:05:35.009 --> 00:05:40.029 was quite similar. Not, of course, not with the 00:05:40.029 --> 00:05:43.529 towers and the big cities as we know them, but 00:05:43.529 --> 00:05:46.750 communities of people that live together. And 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:50.509 all of this kind of lead us to what we are now 00:05:50.509 --> 00:05:54.170 today, just in big, just in large, the technology 00:05:54.170 --> 00:05:59.160 and what's came on us. on it and if we want to 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.600 connect it to some kind of period that we can 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:07.779 divide it to the old world and then to the new 00:06:07.779 --> 00:06:11.120 world we probably must point out on the agricultural 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:19.939 revolution that happened around 10k before present 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:24.129 around it of course it's depend who you're asking, 00:06:24.230 --> 00:06:31.089 but at the end of the Upper Paleolithic and when 00:06:31.089 --> 00:06:35.209 the Neolithic period started. And the agricultural 00:06:35.209 --> 00:06:37.810 revolution actually brought us to what we know 00:06:37.810 --> 00:06:41.069 today about villages, about settlements, about 00:06:41.069 --> 00:06:46.110 sit in one place and become to be a farmer instead 00:06:46.110 --> 00:06:50.750 of hunter -gatherers. So actually what is earlier 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:58.370 than 10K from present that we can talk about 00:06:58.370 --> 00:07:01.589 is the hunter -gatherers that we know them. And 00:07:01.589 --> 00:07:05.649 these hunter -gatherers went around, searched 00:07:05.649 --> 00:07:09.069 for foods, searched for any kind of resources 00:07:09.069 --> 00:07:14.889 that they can use, and they traveled. There are 00:07:14.889 --> 00:07:20.029 even research that talks about over 20 kilometers 00:07:20.029 --> 00:07:23.290 per day. around to search food and return to 00:07:23.290 --> 00:07:26.410 the camp. So most of the sites that they were 00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:32.189 lived in are either caves or open sites under 00:07:32.189 --> 00:07:38.110 the sky. And they collect, whether it's animals, 00:07:38.310 --> 00:07:42.269 whether it's plants, what is my research brought 00:07:42.269 --> 00:07:49.350 to the new field to see and look for. So also 00:07:49.350 --> 00:07:51.910 plants. And they brought them to the side and 00:07:51.910 --> 00:07:54.709 also other resources like unorganic resources 00:07:54.709 --> 00:08:00.449 like plants and all kinds of other tools. For 00:08:00.449 --> 00:08:07.550 example, if they will process skins and create 00:08:07.550 --> 00:08:11.490 ropes and those kind of stuff. So they needed 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:14.089 to collect them around in the surrounding and 00:08:14.089 --> 00:08:20.680 bring them to the camp and then use them. Yeah, 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.439 I think this is it. If I can summarize all of 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:29.980 the things into a small section here in the podcast, 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:38.100 but of course it's a huge data that must be more 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:44.179 increased. Yes, definitely. I mean, it's a long 00:08:44.179 --> 00:08:47.440 stretch of time. Let me go back to what you said 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:51.820 about the hominids, because I think it's one 00:08:51.820 --> 00:08:56.200 of the most fascinating chapter of the existence 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:03.679 of humanity. So basically, there were other human 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:10.659 species around. And I guess my question is, are 00:09:10.659 --> 00:09:14.240 we the product of you know, reproduction between 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:19.460 those human species? Or are we something completely 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:23.679 separate from them? How much can we relate to 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:29.580 those other human species? It's a really interesting 00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:33.940 question. Again, it's huge, huge data in the 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:36.580 research that, you know, there are even groups 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:39.279 in the research that talks about different ways 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:46.940 but what came from the latest researches in the 00:09:46.940 --> 00:09:51.379 recent research talks about that there were some 00:09:51.379 --> 00:09:56.139 combinations between the species, the human species, 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:02.279 and actually it was not as much as dichotomic 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:06.580 as much as it has been thought before. So there 00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:11.730 are some kind of, you know, combinations between 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:15.730 as much as they can be seen in the DNA research. 00:10:16.809 --> 00:10:19.129 For example, if we are talking about the Neanderthals 00:10:19.129 --> 00:10:24.149 and the Homo sapiens, you know, way after the 00:10:24.149 --> 00:10:26.789 hominids that we talked about in GBY and Geshov 00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:29.789 -Notiakov, so you can see that there are also 00:10:29.789 --> 00:10:32.850 evidence of Neanderthals also in our DNA, in 00:10:32.850 --> 00:10:36.330 the DNA of the Homo sapiens. It's small percentages, 00:10:36.629 --> 00:10:40.549 of course, and Homo sapiens now became the controller 00:10:40.549 --> 00:10:46.090 of the whole species and occupied all the globes 00:10:46.090 --> 00:10:51.870 and also before the agricultural revolution if 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:56.870 I mention it also. But definitely we carry on 00:10:56.870 --> 00:11:01.289 us some fractions of DNA from other species as 00:11:01.289 --> 00:11:05.559 well. And if you want to differentiate between 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:07.960 the old, you know, the really ancient species, 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.740 as I mentioned before, between the Australopithecus 00:11:10.740 --> 00:11:13.620 suffrensis, Australopithecus bozi, for example, 00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:19.379 and for the Homo erectus, so you can see similarities, 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:23.559 but I'm not sure about the DNA that is really 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.600 in this stage to answer about those questions. 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.419 So what I can say from the research itself is 00:11:30.419 --> 00:11:34.590 that There are differentiations. And when we 00:11:34.590 --> 00:11:38.330 talk about homo erectus, this is the first homo, 00:11:38.370 --> 00:11:42.250 this is the first species of human that create 00:11:42.250 --> 00:11:46.129 tools. And he used tools. So he create tools 00:11:46.129 --> 00:11:50.029 that he can use them for other tools. To create 00:11:50.029 --> 00:11:52.809 another tool. So if, for example, I'll give you 00:11:52.809 --> 00:11:56.250 an example. He create some indexes that he can 00:11:56.250 --> 00:12:02.600 chop. uh woods you can chop skins uh little and 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:06.440 produce other stuff from them to use with or 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:09.580 to process for example if it's meat or if it's 00:12:09.580 --> 00:12:14.059 plant as i also plant as i mentioned in my research 00:12:14.059 --> 00:12:18.500 so this is kind of the differentiation and this 00:12:18.500 --> 00:12:23.240 person the the abel the the homo habilis this 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:26.190 is the first You know, homo habilis, it's considered 00:12:26.190 --> 00:12:31.789 as homo erectus. This is the species that went 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:36.009 out of Africa in the first out, the big first 00:12:36.009 --> 00:12:40.090 out of Africa, and then spread it all over, you 00:12:40.090 --> 00:12:46.269 know, into Asia and Europe. And then, yeah. Then, 00:12:46.470 --> 00:12:51.149 you know, if we haven't mixed that much with 00:12:51.149 --> 00:12:56.759 them, where have they gone? Why are they extinct 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:02.440 right now? And I'm asking that, having in mind 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:07.460 the hypothesis then, we're the ones who have 00:13:07.460 --> 00:13:11.159 destroyed them. So can you confirm that? I can 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.440 refer to this. But again, these are the big question 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.779 of actually in prehistory and I don't want to 00:13:17.779 --> 00:13:21.279 be risked with other colleagues. But I'll try 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:29.019 to answer, I think, on the right answer. And 00:13:29.019 --> 00:13:35.299 I want to mention that the suitable species were 00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:39.519 survived. Those who were adjustable enough to 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.980 the changes, also in environment, also in the 00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:46.740 surroundings. You know, climate change. Also, 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:48.980 there may be the change of amount of animals 00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:51.179 around them, the predators that maybe attack 00:13:51.179 --> 00:13:56.259 them. And there is a huge discussion about the 00:13:56.259 --> 00:14:00.220 production of tools. For example, the differentiation 00:14:00.220 --> 00:14:04.259 between the Australopithecus, as I mentioned 00:14:04.259 --> 00:14:08.779 them, to the Homo habilis. So when you succeed 00:14:08.779 --> 00:14:11.480 to create some tools, so maybe you can defend 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.210 yourself better than other species. Further, 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:22.409 if you went to the Homo erectus in the Geisha 00:14:22.409 --> 00:14:28.409 B 'not Yaakov, 780 ,000 years from now, these 00:14:28.409 --> 00:14:32.789 hominids, they will control on fire. So this 00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:37.090 is the first evidence out of Africa of human 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:41.029 species that control on fire. So this control 00:14:41.029 --> 00:14:45.179 brings with itself, you know, maybe can stand 00:14:45.179 --> 00:14:48.200 by its own, the control of fire that can lead 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:53.740 for other options, maybe survival options, maybe 00:14:53.740 --> 00:15:01.279 you can extinct other species, I guess, with 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.759 these abilities. So it's adaptions that human 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.960 species, specific human species, as we know, 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:10.779 maybe the Homo sapiens further, but if we talk 00:15:10.779 --> 00:15:13.870 now about Homo erectus, they made those adaptations 00:15:13.870 --> 00:15:16.289 to the surroundings that helped them to survive 00:15:16.289 --> 00:15:20.269 upon the others. Okay, let's go back to your 00:15:20.269 --> 00:15:28.009 study. So now we have, you know, defined and 00:15:28.009 --> 00:15:34.190 given context around the years. But what about 00:15:34.190 --> 00:15:39.110 the location? How did you select the location? 00:15:39.889 --> 00:15:44.419 How did you make the decision to start digging, 00:15:44.419 --> 00:15:50.639 you know, at the banks of the South Jordan River, 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.100 I think. So I'll just mention that this excavations 00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:59.120 were happened way before me as a student, even. 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.419 And I have a PhD, of course, and the research, 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:08.639 but the the leader of the excavation, and she's 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.980 also signed on this research as well, with her 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:22.019 help. and she was excavated in a she was excavator 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.539 in the 80s and the 90s of the last century and 00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:31.139 she she actually made a really great job about 00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:35.240 preserving the the finds that she take out of 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.700 the the ground out of the soils so actually when 00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.600 you excavate you reduce layers from the soil 00:16:42.379 --> 00:16:46.120 Sorry, most of the layers, most of the sediments 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:49.679 were thrown away after the excavation, wild excavation 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:55.740 itself. And sorry, Nahama Goren in Bar, Professor 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:59.620 Goren in Bar, kept a lot of the sediments and 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:05.000 kept a lot of the finds also in a way that allowed 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:10.130 it to preserve better. for me to come and check 00:17:10.130 --> 00:17:14.569 this. So I came into this after the second degree 00:17:14.569 --> 00:17:20.750 when I talked with my supervisor. And my supervisor 00:17:20.750 --> 00:17:23.609 mentioned me that her supervisor, Nahamah Goremin 00:17:23.609 --> 00:17:26.210 -Bah, Professor Nahamah Goremin -Bah, have a 00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:31.490 lot of material sits and wait for people to investigate 00:17:31.490 --> 00:17:35.289 it for microremains. So actually there are a 00:17:35.289 --> 00:17:39.569 lot of microremains that I can do in actually 00:17:39.569 --> 00:17:44.069 any archaeological site. I can use in any kind 00:17:44.069 --> 00:17:48.710 of find to extract and resell starches if we 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:51.890 talk about starches or maybe other microremains 00:17:51.890 --> 00:17:58.789 like pollen and like other phytoliths. And my 00:17:58.789 --> 00:18:01.849 specialty, actually I'll just mention it, I'm 00:18:01.849 --> 00:18:05.099 a specialist with starch. And what I decided 00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:09.200 to do is to take some kind of case study that 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:13.619 will be strong enough and maybe will fade much 00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:21.460 light about plant processing and production of 00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:26.339 foods out of plants. And when she suggested this 00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:33.670 as a quite good sampling site, I jumped. almost 00:18:33.670 --> 00:18:38.809 right away and decided to test these stones because 00:18:38.809 --> 00:18:41.309 they thought these actually percussive tools, 00:18:41.789 --> 00:18:47.730 not just a stone. And it was fantastic to test 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:52.869 them. And of course, again, I'll repeat, there 00:18:52.869 --> 00:18:55.490 are a lot of options here in Israel and a lot 00:18:55.490 --> 00:18:59.869 of corporations to do, but this is kind of unique 00:18:59.869 --> 00:19:03.730 material to work on and prehistory. that, for 00:19:03.730 --> 00:19:08.849 me, is most interesting than other periods, for 00:19:08.849 --> 00:19:12.450 example. So this is what led me to investigate 00:19:12.450 --> 00:19:15.890 this site and take these samples out of this 00:19:15.890 --> 00:19:21.589 site. So it's a combination between great taking 00:19:21.589 --> 00:19:25.190 care about the stuff, the great checking and 00:19:25.190 --> 00:19:29.930 analyzing of the material, and great context. 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:34.339 of material and its combination of all. Yeah. 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:37.279 And I think this is what brought me to this. 00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:44.079 And I guess we could get to the conclusion of 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:52.339 that study. And maybe a way to sum it up is, 00:19:53.180 --> 00:19:56.880 yes, we were hunter -gatherers, but maybe we 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.309 were more gatherers than hunters. So would you 00:20:00.309 --> 00:20:05.930 agree with that? You know, summary? So I'm, I'm, 00:20:06.109 --> 00:20:08.769 I must agree with this summary, because, and 00:20:08.769 --> 00:20:12.529 maybe I'll say something for, you know, in the 00:20:12.529 --> 00:20:15.130 beginning of this, well, most of the archaeological 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:19.089 sites that were excavated, they're excavated, 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:25.259 and the finds and the tools kept right away, 00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:28.279 they kept right away after the excavation and 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.079 they classified and when you're excavating by 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:35.259 hands so a lot of the sediments that around the 00:20:35.259 --> 00:20:41.119 finds are thrown away so all the macro remains 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.059 actually I wish I wish that I think that this 00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:47.220 is what the archaeologists done of course they're 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:50.099 keeping all of the macro remains that what they 00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:55.049 can see but a lot of the material conclude also 00:20:55.049 --> 00:21:00.269 micro -remains that can't be seen unless you're 00:21:00.269 --> 00:21:03.269 taking them to the lab and test them under the 00:21:03.269 --> 00:21:07.309 microscope. So what you can find in most cases 00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:10.569 in archaeological sites, especially in prehistoric 00:21:10.569 --> 00:21:15.970 sites, is that you can find bones close to plants 00:21:15.970 --> 00:21:21.839 or other stone tools, net stone tools. and maybe, 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:26.339 maybe, maybe a little bit of charcoals, or even 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:30.339 that, not that much. Sometimes you can see if 00:21:30.339 --> 00:21:34.900 it's further in prehistory, like from the Epipaleolithic 00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:38.559 through the Neolithic period, and of course, 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.539 go through to the Roman period, you can see also 00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:46.819 the structures, the buildings, and if it's in 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:49.670 prehistory, you maybe will see three stages of 00:21:49.670 --> 00:21:52.029 stones that may be served as the base of the 00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:57.990 wood or something. So this is what you mostly 00:21:57.990 --> 00:22:01.529 see when you're excavating. And when decided 00:22:01.529 --> 00:22:05.190 to take the research of microremains into the, 00:22:05.190 --> 00:22:07.589 you know, to take the samples and take them into 00:22:07.589 --> 00:22:12.470 the microscope and observe them, it's a new world 00:22:12.470 --> 00:22:16.980 for the archaeologists. in large but also for 00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:20.599 the micro remains researchers, because you can 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:25.039 reveal much more out of the excavation. And if 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.759 you, if we as archaeologists want to reconstruct 00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:33.740 the real picture about how people in this case, 00:22:34.539 --> 00:22:42.240 how our ancestors live or manage their lives, 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:45.589 and what activities they've done, you must check 00:22:45.589 --> 00:22:50.170 in all directions. And I'm not blaming, of course, 00:22:51.130 --> 00:22:53.210 the archaeologists in large, and of course it's 00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:56.490 not. This is the process of research. Well, now 00:22:56.490 --> 00:23:01.509 we are in a period that those micro -remains 00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.750 researchers are able to be done. So we have the 00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:07.829 microscope, we have other chemicals we can use. 00:23:10.210 --> 00:23:13.690 And it's great how the... you know how the technology 00:23:13.690 --> 00:23:17.130 is improved in all aspects so it's allowed us 00:23:17.130 --> 00:23:20.890 to do this but most of the archaeological excavations 00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:24.930 up to kind of the 20 years from now ago most 00:23:24.930 --> 00:23:27.950 of them they excavate you know bare hands just 00:23:27.950 --> 00:23:31.910 collect the pints and this is what the archaeologists 00:23:31.910 --> 00:23:37.029 done so i can't blame them but this what caused 00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:40.369 the bias of not seeing any plant remains because 00:23:40.369 --> 00:23:43.230 plant remains are organic they are more affected 00:23:43.230 --> 00:23:47.490 by the surroundings, they are more affected by 00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:54.549 other insects or microorganisms. Also, the purpose 00:23:54.549 --> 00:23:58.589 of this research is to investigate an archaeological 00:23:58.589 --> 00:24:01.450 site, a prehistoric archaeological site, is that 00:24:01.450 --> 00:24:05.509 this specific site was waterlogged. The waterlogged 00:24:05.509 --> 00:24:12.359 is surrounded without oxygen. the possible of 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:16.660 microorganisms that needs oxygen to live and 00:24:16.660 --> 00:24:19.920 to eat the starches, the starch remains from 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.319 the staples decreased, increasingly decreased. 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.819 So it's great, great, you know, to check there. 00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:31.900 So this is what we need inside and I hope for 00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:35.900 that. And the starches were preserved, but it's 00:24:35.900 --> 00:24:38.619 not the case in all other, you know, archaeological 00:24:38.619 --> 00:24:42.819 sites. It's also dependent on preservation. So 00:24:42.819 --> 00:24:46.079 if you, as you mentioned, the three thousand 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:50.319 years from the Christian, from the Bible, for 00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:56.720 example. So in those archaeological sites, there 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.680 are high percentages of preservation of organic 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:02.440 materials. And by the way, these organic materials 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:08.980 are from charcoals. Most of them were burnt. 00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:12.289 and then they preserved because when you burn 00:25:12.289 --> 00:25:17.450 something, you transform it to charcoal, and 00:25:17.450 --> 00:25:21.549 then it became unorganic in some way. And then 00:25:21.549 --> 00:25:24.950 it's less breakable, less damaged. Of course, 00:25:25.109 --> 00:25:28.990 it's damaged and there are economic processes 00:25:28.990 --> 00:25:32.970 on archaeological sites in large, but most of 00:25:32.970 --> 00:25:36.069 them are preserved. And here, in this unique 00:25:36.069 --> 00:25:39.579 site, the macro -remains, the plant macro -remains 00:25:39.579 --> 00:25:45.500 were preserved also because they were they were, 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:51.099 you know, soaked with water under the water in 00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:54.359 soil sediments. So it was soil sediment that 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:58.839 was a swamp and it was a lake shore before this, 00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:05.099 like 780 ,000 years ago. And this is what afford 00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:08.269 the preservation. So we assume that because there 00:26:08.269 --> 00:26:11.730 is macro botanical remains of plants, we assume 00:26:11.730 --> 00:26:16.829 that we have here a potential to reverse starches. 00:26:17.390 --> 00:26:22.329 And this is it. Also, it's a unique site because 00:26:22.329 --> 00:26:28.569 of the macro botanical remains of fruits, different 00:26:28.569 --> 00:26:32.309 kinds of fruits, almonds, and a lot of other, 00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:35.769 like acorns. others that probably consume and 00:26:35.769 --> 00:26:40.650 as we mentioned here they they probably consume 00:26:40.650 --> 00:26:44.410 and I think what is if you if you will ask me 00:26:44.410 --> 00:26:47.390 and probably will you you want to ask but I think 00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:51.930 I'm I'm jumping over maybe I'll continue the 00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:55.990 uniqueness of these riches the uniqueness the 00:26:55.990 --> 00:27:00.470 uniqueness of this research is that we examine 00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:05.299 starches we examine plant residues out of tools. 00:27:05.900 --> 00:27:09.599 Most of the archaeological remains excavating 00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.720 the archaeological site, they are found close 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:17.759 to tools, close to other remains of humans. So 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:24.099 it's indirect evidence that macro botanical remains. 00:27:24.619 --> 00:27:27.619 But they are in the site, so we can talk about 00:27:27.619 --> 00:27:31.240 them. that maybe they can use with, you know, 00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:35.500 plant processing, maybe they brought for specific 00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:38.940 reasons, and probably it is. But when you discovered 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:44.519 and when you reveal touches or plant proxies 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.480 out of tools, so it's like you, you know, picking 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.180 out in your plate, in your plate at home. So 00:27:52.180 --> 00:27:56.559 it definitely came from what you processed and... 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:01.119 probably consumed. And it's more direct evidence 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:05.900 for the process of plants. And it's probably 00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:11.259 the earliest evidence of plant processing and 00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:22.359 consumption of plants. That's absolutely fascinating 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.809 to think that archaeologists would look at you 00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:32.509 know, the, those macro, um, clues of what early 00:28:32.509 --> 00:28:37.150 people ate, um, and, and, and just have that, 00:28:37.150 --> 00:28:40.750 you know, bias of, you know, not, uh, looking 00:28:40.750 --> 00:28:44.509 at the micro stuff, um, which yes, like you said, 00:28:44.670 --> 00:28:51.210 um, is more rich in, in, in clues on what exactly 00:28:51.210 --> 00:28:53.769 they, they, they were eating, what was their 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.880 their diet about. So you talked about instruments. 00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:04.779 Are we talking here about, and you mentioned 00:29:04.779 --> 00:29:10.460 plates, like some sorts of plates. Are we talking 00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:16.079 about cooking here? Were those people, you know, 00:29:16.819 --> 00:29:21.470 that advance in their manipulation of food? So 00:29:21.470 --> 00:29:23.990 it's a great question, and I think you touched 00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:28.470 the point exactly. Well, as I mentioned before, 00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:32.930 the site was known by the oldest evidence of 00:29:32.930 --> 00:29:37.049 controlling the fire outside of Africa. So fire 00:29:37.049 --> 00:29:40.869 was there, and we can see also evidence of charcoals 00:29:40.869 --> 00:29:44.210 that were brought intensifically over the site. 00:29:45.289 --> 00:29:50.980 And also we can see, of course, other remains 00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:54.279 of animals, of mammals, from different kinds 00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:58.579 of mammals, and also fish. But here in these 00:29:58.579 --> 00:30:04.180 reaches, we find out also starches that were 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:08.599 damaged in a way that's really similar to cooking 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:14.039 or, if you would like, fire processing of plants. 00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:17.559 I'm trying to be careful with my words, but... 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.819 The evidence well, it's it's look like this and 00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:24.259 we present it also in the research we gave also 00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:26.599 a figure for this and we present the statues 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:32.619 and we suggest that those touches went over a 00:30:32.619 --> 00:30:36.859 processing on grindstone tools and Grindstone 00:30:36.859 --> 00:30:41.279 tools is kind of large terms for percussive tools 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.740 for processing tools. So these plans brought 00:30:46.730 --> 00:30:50.950 brought to these tools, the stone tools, basalt 00:30:50.950 --> 00:30:53.589 stone tools, and they were processed. This is 00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:56.410 what we extract, this is what we take out from. 00:30:56.730 --> 00:31:00.569 So not the plates, actually not the ancient plates, 00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:03.849 but the processing tools. So if you want, it's 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:07.269 like the food processor today on the, you know, 00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:11.490 that sits in our kitchen. So this was the ancient 00:31:11.490 --> 00:31:15.210 food processor, and they use this and process 00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:18.579 it. and maybe after this or maybe before that 00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:24.720 they brought this production this you know maybe 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:29.500 it was a flower or something like that and they 00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:33.279 process it or create it at some point and put 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.200 it through the fire and then consume it. We guessed 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.180 that they consume it so yeah I'm choosing my 00:31:41.180 --> 00:31:44.420 words here because this kind of stuff that are 00:31:44.420 --> 00:31:47.490 a little bit kind Kind of jump over, but we can 00:31:47.490 --> 00:31:54.069 talk about it, I guess. So I'll just say that 00:31:54.069 --> 00:31:56.910 the evidence came out of these processing tools, 00:31:57.630 --> 00:32:02.049 they call them percussive tools, and it was specific 00:32:02.049 --> 00:32:05.170 plant parts. And they didn't mention it before 00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:08.829 and they think it's worth to mention that the 00:32:08.829 --> 00:32:12.009 starchy parts in plants are really specific because 00:32:12.009 --> 00:32:17.859 the starch not... and all of the plants. So you 00:32:17.859 --> 00:32:22.180 need to pick specific parts of plants that contain 00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:26.980 the starch. And these kinds of plant parts came 00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:29.559 from different kinds of plants. So for example, 00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:33.039 from acorns, we found evidence for acorns. We 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:38.359 found evidence of species. It's a starch formation 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:43.119 that is correlated with barley. Wild grass and 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:47.019 also rate so it's a similar formation. So actually 00:32:47.019 --> 00:32:51.200 it's it could be that all of these four were 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.059 processed but Probably some of them like two 00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:56.240 of them three of them. Maybe all of them were 00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:00.279 processed. So we talked about acorns about wheat 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:04.859 or barley or the two others and also chestnuts 00:33:04.859 --> 00:33:09.740 that these are nuts also roots of water lily 00:33:09.740 --> 00:33:14.670 yellow water lily and we mentioned chestnut and 00:33:14.670 --> 00:33:20.829 maybe also lily bulbs. So it's kind of big, you 00:33:20.829 --> 00:33:27.309 know, big, big kind of range of species that 00:33:27.309 --> 00:33:29.970 came from different kinds of plant parts. So 00:33:29.970 --> 00:33:35.109 we talked about bulbs, nuts and grains and seeds 00:33:35.109 --> 00:33:39.950 also. And it's unique also because we found it 00:33:39.849 --> 00:33:43.650 on these tools, but these kind of plants came 00:33:43.650 --> 00:33:47.349 from different seasons. So you can find them 00:33:47.349 --> 00:33:49.910 in different seasons. So you can yield like the 00:33:49.910 --> 00:33:53.869 yield, when you need to go out and harvest them, 00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:56.750 you can find them in different kinds of seasons. 00:33:57.150 --> 00:34:01.769 For example, the chestnuts and the water yellow 00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:06.970 lily, they are actually harvested in the winter, 00:34:07.349 --> 00:34:11.239 mostly in the winter, autumn. And if we talked 00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:16.199 about wheat or barley, or also oat, they found 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:21.139 around the spring into the summer, and acorns 00:34:21.139 --> 00:34:24.539 somewhere in between, also close to the winter. 00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:28.500 So it's kind of range of seasonality. And we 00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:30.980 can talk here about seasonality preferences, 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:35.219 or maybe depending on the seasons. So it means 00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:40.420 that this ancient hominid, Ancient hominins, 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.699 they knew the surroundings, they knew the year 00:34:43.699 --> 00:34:47.880 -round seasonality, they knew, of course, well, 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:53.219 without doubt, they knew the cycles of climate, 00:34:53.860 --> 00:35:00.699 the cycles of plant production, next -generation 00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:07.300 season production of the plant. And it's, I think, 00:35:07.539 --> 00:35:11.250 it's extreme. extremely interesting to know that 00:35:11.250 --> 00:35:15.449 they have these develops and if we combine it 00:35:15.449 --> 00:35:18.610 also to the processing that maybe they take the 00:35:18.610 --> 00:35:21.050 plants and after the process put them also in 00:35:21.050 --> 00:35:24.190 fire and you combine all the things you can talk 00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:27.610 here about really developed cognitive of those 00:35:27.610 --> 00:35:31.809 kind of species the hominids and if you would 00:35:31.809 --> 00:35:35.909 say Homo erectus if you want Homo erectus back 00:35:35.909 --> 00:35:40.530 then back to around 800 ,000 years from now. 00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:46.050 800 ,000 years. So it's, I think it's really 00:35:46.050 --> 00:35:49.969 interesting and need saying. Quick follow -up 00:35:49.969 --> 00:35:53.190 question. Do you think there were more plants 00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:57.750 that they consumed and that maybe, you know, 00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.250 because of the limitation of the sites, you did 00:36:00.250 --> 00:36:04.670 not get to discover? Because, you know, it's 00:36:04.590 --> 00:36:08.789 It feels like it's really wide ranging the kinds 00:36:08.789 --> 00:36:11.909 of plants they were eating. So I'm thinking maybe 00:36:11.909 --> 00:36:16.510 it was not limited to that. Great question. Definitely 00:36:16.510 --> 00:36:21.030 they consume more. Definitely. Because, as I 00:36:21.030 --> 00:36:25.090 mentioned, starches found in specific plant parts. 00:36:26.630 --> 00:36:29.530 And the starches are not familiar with all kinds 00:36:29.530 --> 00:36:32.050 of plants. There are plants, for example, the 00:36:32.050 --> 00:36:38.039 mole leafy. with leaves, plants with leaves, 00:36:38.139 --> 00:36:42.780 that you consume the leaves, so leaves not produce 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:47.400 starches for storage. The starch that I'm talking 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:51.440 about is starch for storage, not starch for energy 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:56.340 that every plant produce for its energy. So starch 00:36:56.340 --> 00:37:00.179 is a storage source, not all of the plants create 00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:03.420 it. So they create sometimes oils and fats, and 00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:05.900 sometimes also allium, the different kind of 00:37:05.900 --> 00:37:11.780 sugar. So, and we can find on the site different 00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:15.199 kinds of plants in the macro remain now. We're 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:20.639 talking about plants that live after the seeds 00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:27.199 and grains, but those kinds of remains are, well... 00:37:27.179 --> 00:37:30.619 Let us know about huge range of plants and huge 00:37:30.619 --> 00:37:33.059 range of other plant parts. For example, the 00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:36.199 fruits, as I mentioned, and other kinds of seeds 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:42.400 and grains that mostly go through fire. So we 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:44.699 can talk also about your example that I didn't 00:37:44.699 --> 00:37:49.360 found in the starch. They have starches, but 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.320 I didn't found the starch of them in the percussive 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:58.880 tools, but they are called how they call, I just 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.039 forget the name for now, but they are kind of 00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:06.579 small popcorn that they are being sold now even 00:38:06.579 --> 00:38:09.880 today in India. And this is a species that extinct 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:13.219 in Israel and all of the surrounding of, you 00:38:13.219 --> 00:38:15.880 know, the Eastern Mediterranean, but it's now 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:19.960 lives only in India. And ancient remains of it 00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:23.940 discovered in Geshub not Yaakov. Again, seven 00:38:24.139 --> 00:38:30.019 780 ,000 years from now. So, yeah, fascinating, 00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:35.699 I guess. Yeah. Truly. And something else that 00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:39.579 strikes me about this is, like you said, there 00:38:39.579 --> 00:38:44.960 are many plants, the eight that are now extinct. 00:38:45.579 --> 00:38:48.280 And then there are others that we don't see as 00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:53.559 food. So basically 780 ,000 years ago, they had 00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:59.420 a more diverse, um, um, you know, plant food, 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.980 um, um, cuisine than, than we do, because we're 00:39:03.980 --> 00:39:08.559 really limited on the kinds of legumes and, um, 00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:13.650 plant foods that we eat. Great. Definitely a 00:39:13.650 --> 00:39:18.010 great notice, I must confess. And also deals 00:39:18.010 --> 00:39:23.389 with, as probably you noticed already, with the 00:39:23.389 --> 00:39:29.030 agricultural revolution. And as also researchers 00:39:29.030 --> 00:39:35.050 in this period, I can say that we limited our 00:39:35.050 --> 00:39:42.889 plate. kind of eight founder crops. So these 00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:45.590 eight founder crops are the wheat, the barley, 00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:50.610 chickpea, lentils, baba bean, and the flax, and 00:39:50.610 --> 00:39:53.230 maybe I forgot someone in between, pea also, 00:39:54.369 --> 00:39:58.230 and chickpea. And these kind of species, those 00:39:58.230 --> 00:40:00.829 are the most common today to the region of the 00:40:00.829 --> 00:40:05.849 eastern Mediterranean. We can add them the maize, 00:40:06.909 --> 00:40:10.170 and also tomato and potato that came from the 00:40:10.170 --> 00:40:17.429 Americas, and we can add also mash bean and others, 00:40:20.449 --> 00:40:26.130 and rice of course from Asia. So it's a small 00:40:26.130 --> 00:40:30.210 group of plants, but these small groups of plants 00:40:30.210 --> 00:40:35.099 that were picked and create our small bag of 00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:38.039 plants that we are mostly consumed today, it's 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:45.400 not what has happened back then. And maybe if 00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:49.480 you want, if we try to summarize it differently, 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:55.500 maybe I can say that we reduced our preferable 00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:59.480 species of plants out of something that was big 00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.989 and huge And we domesticate those specific plants. 00:41:03.170 --> 00:41:05.889 It's not came from out of nowhere. It came from 00:41:05.889 --> 00:41:08.829 somewhere. The somewhere was, you know, back 00:41:08.829 --> 00:41:12.550 then that our ancestors knew all the surroundings, 00:41:12.769 --> 00:41:16.090 knew all the plants, all the, you know, the resources 00:41:16.090 --> 00:41:19.710 in large. And from them, they picked and, you 00:41:19.710 --> 00:41:24.849 know, reduced what we're using today. When I 00:41:24.849 --> 00:41:28.550 think about hunter -gatherers or gatherers, hunters, 00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:33.619 I always thought, you know, how can they find 00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:38.059 what they eat in the wild? And I realized now 00:41:38.059 --> 00:41:41.539 that I was thinking, how can they find bell peppers 00:41:41.539 --> 00:41:45.800 and potatoes and, you know, what we usually cultivate? 00:41:46.460 --> 00:41:48.940 But actually, you know, they were eating more 00:41:50.310 --> 00:41:54.610 different species and more diverse species than 00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:59.210 that. So of course they would find, you know, 00:41:59.449 --> 00:42:04.289 other things, other sources of food. If you don't 00:42:04.289 --> 00:42:10.170 widen your window of, you know, food available, 00:42:10.409 --> 00:42:14.030 plant food available, of course you would think, 00:42:14.090 --> 00:42:16.349 you know, they would never survive in the wild. 00:42:18.189 --> 00:42:22.590 Yeah, what we know today, just selective, you 00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:25.530 know, selectivity from what they knew. If I go 00:42:25.530 --> 00:42:30.329 back, so I always thought if I go back to those 00:42:30.329 --> 00:42:34.389 early people, I would find some bloodthirsty 00:42:34.389 --> 00:42:41.269 groups who had a really hard time surviving and 00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:45.090 Basically hunting all the time something like 00:42:45.090 --> 00:42:48.909 that cartoon. I don't know if you know it primal 00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:54.070 I think it won some awards but you know that 00:42:54.070 --> 00:42:58.789 Early human is just obsessed with hunting and 00:42:58.789 --> 00:43:03.489 it's all very bloody and violent But you know 00:43:03.489 --> 00:43:07.869 what you're describing is more of a community 00:43:07.869 --> 00:43:13.789 Just eating plants and cooking them together. 00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:18.190 I don't know, I get the feel of togetherness 00:43:18.190 --> 00:43:24.190 and peace from our ancestors that I did not get 00:43:24.190 --> 00:43:30.150 from mainstream culture, pop culture, our, you 00:43:30.150 --> 00:43:36.309 know, mainstream view of those ancestors of ours. 00:43:37.250 --> 00:43:39.650 Yeah, and this is connect for something else 00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:42.690 that I don't want to go inside, but actually 00:43:42.690 --> 00:43:46.090 this is what we have been, you know, weighed 00:43:46.090 --> 00:43:53.050 on like road to be looked to. And if we're, there 00:43:53.050 --> 00:43:57.030 is sentence that my lecturer used to say in our 00:43:57.030 --> 00:43:59.469 lectures every time almost and that we talked 00:43:59.469 --> 00:44:03.210 about the prehistory against our modern times. 00:44:03.250 --> 00:44:06.929 And he mentioned that if we can imagine clock, 00:44:07.570 --> 00:44:13.010 the picture of clock and Two seconds close to 00:44:13.010 --> 00:44:16.210 12 are the end of the life that we are know today 00:44:16.210 --> 00:44:22.150 about getting rich, achieve supplies, and living 00:44:22.150 --> 00:44:26.650 in buildings, wanting to buy a car or using a 00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:31.969 phone call. All of this that brought us to the 00:44:31.969 --> 00:44:35.590 agricultural revolution and from there to settle 00:44:35.590 --> 00:44:40.099 and to be more hunter. and to build the big houses 00:44:40.099 --> 00:44:44.179 and to be, to achieve to be, you know, more and 00:44:44.179 --> 00:44:46.480 more and more from all different kinds. And then 00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:49.780 I do not say that it's not good or good. I just 00:44:49.780 --> 00:44:53.400 mention it. So it's only to like in the time 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.900 scale on the, you know, on the, on the timeline 00:44:56.900 --> 00:45:02.880 of all human species. When you took this, When 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:05.599 you took us, where we are now in the modern life, 00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:09.400 it's only two seconds from all the clock. Like 00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:13.699 it's promissed from all the prehistory of the 00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:18.780 human species and what it's going through. And 00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:21.239 all the others, as you mentioned, it's the hunter 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.340 -gatherer, or if you like, gatherer -hunters, 00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:27.699 yes, definitely. And these were communities that 00:45:27.699 --> 00:45:29.920 took each other, you know, to care about each 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:32.949 other and treat each other and if I'll just throw 00:45:32.949 --> 00:45:40.250 here an anecdote, 30 ,000 years from now in a 00:45:40.250 --> 00:45:43.630 cave in Shanidar in Iraq, for example, there 00:45:43.630 --> 00:45:48.030 is an evidence for medicine treatment for people 00:45:48.030 --> 00:45:51.469 inside the cave. So you can see actually a bone 00:45:51.469 --> 00:45:57.550 that arrowhead embedded inside it. And then you 00:45:57.550 --> 00:46:02.179 can see this bone healed. someone needed to treat 00:46:02.179 --> 00:46:06.139 this person, to treat this species, to treat 00:46:06.139 --> 00:46:12.039 this individual. So these were communities that 00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:16.380 needed to take care of each other, needed to 00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:22.079 bring food to the ancient table together, no 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:24.599 matter who went to collect, no matter who went 00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:28.460 to hunt, no matter... who bring, you know, other 00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:31.519 unorganic stuff like the tools that I told you 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:33.980 when someone needs to produce tools. So it was 00:46:33.980 --> 00:46:36.920 kind of communities that work together. It's 00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:40.420 not just as we know from today that every individual 00:46:40.420 --> 00:46:45.960 is for itself. And I must add for this is that 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:53.579 it was also diverse and the group was really 00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:59.420 much the center and not the individual. This 00:46:59.420 --> 00:47:02.219 is one thing, and then the second thing that 00:47:02.219 --> 00:47:13.420 I think it must be mentioned. Actually, I wonder 00:47:13.420 --> 00:47:21.059 how to say this, but you know what? Everyone 00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:25.440 needs to to take care to each other and to notice 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:30.860 to see each other but yeah never mind it's not 00:47:30.860 --> 00:47:35.920 fixed in my mind right now and it seemed important 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:40.739 yeah yeah well it's so important maybe we'll 00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:46.559 need to edit it after this but yeah never mind 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:51.719 i just okay maybe that's talk about it off recording, 00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:56.980 if you want, because I'm curious. Let me ask 00:47:56.980 --> 00:48:01.960 you this about those people. And you alluded 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:06.059 to it when you talked about how it's more collective 00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:09.800 and less about one individual. I always thought 00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:14.519 that if we were hunter societies, then, of course, 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:19.739 we became very hierarchical and patriarchal because 00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:22.380 there are only a few of us who have the athletic 00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:29.920 abilities to hunt or, you know, to go after praise. 00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:36.039 And so if we depend on them to get our food, 00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:41.780 then they gain socially more power. I always, 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:46.130 you know, thought of it that way. But if we depended 00:48:46.130 --> 00:48:50.650 not on hunters for our for sustaining ourselves, 00:48:50.650 --> 00:48:54.349 but actually on plants, and finding those plants, 00:48:54.349 --> 00:49:00.369 and then cooking those plants, the way society 00:49:00.369 --> 00:49:06.309 was built was much more equitable, and the distribution 00:49:06.309 --> 00:49:11.449 of responsibilities was much more fair, and I 00:49:11.449 --> 00:49:15.280 guess, because of that, maybe it was less hierarchical. 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:20.539 Is that a good way of looking at things? A good 00:49:20.539 --> 00:49:25.039 analysis of social structures in prehistoric 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:30.800 time? I think it's hard. I understand where you're 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.239 going to, but I think it's hard to answer this 00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:38.019 in analytic, you know, tools or maybe in such 00:49:38.019 --> 00:49:41.269 a research. I think we should be more careful 00:49:41.269 --> 00:49:45.610 because, and I'll say while I'm saying this, 00:49:47.030 --> 00:49:51.750 so from what we can know from, you know, from 00:49:51.750 --> 00:49:57.130 ethnographical research, all of the kind of those 00:49:57.130 --> 00:50:01.210 activities will happen in those ancient sites 00:50:01.210 --> 00:50:04.550 if we, you know, throw it to the ancient times. 00:50:05.630 --> 00:50:07.789 all of the activities happened there were some 00:50:07.789 --> 00:50:11.690 groups so if you want well it's not that true 00:50:11.690 --> 00:50:16.969 to say you know that females were collected and 00:50:16.969 --> 00:50:21.130 the males were went out to hunter to hunt so 00:50:21.130 --> 00:50:23.829 it's not it's not true as we can see it also 00:50:23.829 --> 00:50:27.630 from ethnographical evidence but i'm not going 00:50:27.630 --> 00:50:33.250 there for you know for for that but i'm mentioning 00:50:33.250 --> 00:50:37.590 that some were specialized with Flint napping, 00:50:37.670 --> 00:50:40.530 some were specialized with wood making, some 00:50:40.530 --> 00:50:45.210 were specialized with creating, some were specialized 00:50:45.210 --> 00:50:48.670 with hunting, and some were specialized with 00:50:48.670 --> 00:50:52.289 gathering. And all of that needs to be done in 00:50:52.289 --> 00:50:55.550 a community, like in a complete community. You 00:50:55.550 --> 00:50:59.710 need all of these kinds of resources, activities, 00:50:59.869 --> 00:51:02.550 you need all of these kinds of persons to be 00:51:02.550 --> 00:51:07.559 able to live. and live properly. At some point, 00:51:07.699 --> 00:51:10.340 at some point, and this is also why I mentioned 00:51:10.340 --> 00:51:14.639 the two seconds theory in the clock, at some 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:20.099 point this arrangement was disturbed. And there 00:51:20.099 --> 00:51:23.840 are a few, or maybe more than few, hypothesis 00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:28.800 in archaeology that combines also history and 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:33.119 combined also A climate change and animal moving 00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.760 and all different kind of you know different 00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:41.099 kind of what is it. Why this arrangement was 00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:45.340 the why this you know all of this yeah you want 00:51:45.340 --> 00:51:49.539 the net of how things work all of the field. 00:51:50.019 --> 00:51:52.420 Since three point two million years from now 00:51:52.420 --> 00:51:56.739 since lucy the start of the crisis and up to 00:51:56.739 --> 00:52:01.289 the. 10 ,000 years from now for the agricultural 00:52:01.289 --> 00:52:07.929 revolution. So things will change. And I think 00:52:07.929 --> 00:52:15.429 that if we want to talk about kind of, if you 00:52:15.429 --> 00:52:20.250 would say, you know, something to wish for is 00:52:20.250 --> 00:52:23.809 the communities that we used to live like them. 00:52:24.460 --> 00:52:28.000 you know, the range of years from 3 .2 until, 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:32.860 you know, 10 ,000 years from now. That it was 00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:35.840 a community that everyone took care about each 00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:39.199 other. And there is someone, and this is kind 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:42.219 of, you know, this is cross -wide, all of the 00:52:42.219 --> 00:52:46.639 archaeologists and other hypothesis people, that 00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:50.159 something happened and disturbed this. And I 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.360 think this is the thing that we need to take. 00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:57.679 If it's rather it's good or not, or trying to 00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:01.739 judge it, you know, it's not in our hands. This 00:53:01.739 --> 00:53:04.260 is what this is. I think the point that they 00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:11.880 want to bring. Yes, definitely. I am of the opinion 00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:17.869 that. it's not very interesting or useful to 00:53:17.869 --> 00:53:21.269 moralize everything. Let's just study it as it 00:53:21.269 --> 00:53:24.610 is and try to understand it instead of judging 00:53:24.610 --> 00:53:30.010 it. But yeah, it's interesting how you describe 00:53:30.010 --> 00:53:34.269 it and how there was this turning point in our 00:53:34.269 --> 00:53:40.869 history or prehistory that changed us as societies. 00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:48.059 Okay, I need to ask this before we stop the recording. 00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:54.280 What do you make of people who would say they 00:53:54.280 --> 00:54:00.420 could not be that relying on plants because plants 00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:05.340 do not offer enough nutrients for sustaining 00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:12.289 themselves. They need that animal protein. What 00:54:12.289 --> 00:54:16.389 do you make of that? So you kind of remind me 00:54:16.389 --> 00:54:20.309 what I wanted to say before. So it's great. Because 00:54:20.309 --> 00:54:24.550 as we're learning, as we're studying ancient 00:54:24.550 --> 00:54:28.670 societies, also today and also in archaeology. 00:54:28.989 --> 00:54:34.829 So you can see that there's a kind of percentages 00:54:34.829 --> 00:54:40.579 of how much we consume. how much they consume, 00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:47.139 plants or animals, or the combinations in between. 00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:55.079 And the research that I just read, and I think 00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:58.360 that it also became a consensus that there are 00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:02.300 some kind of periods around the year that are 00:55:02.300 --> 00:55:06.199 needed to be, that you need to eat a little bit 00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:09.829 more fat. and periods that you need to eat less. 00:55:10.130 --> 00:55:12.710 For example, the summer that you need to eat 00:55:12.710 --> 00:55:15.269 less, and the winter that you need a little bit 00:55:15.269 --> 00:55:18.030 more. But again, this research is specifically 00:55:18.030 --> 00:55:22.090 a research that I'm really interested with, and 00:55:22.090 --> 00:55:26.050 I like the claims there, is that they talk about 00:55:26.050 --> 00:55:35.210 70 % for plants and 30 % for meat and flushes 00:55:35.210 --> 00:55:39.420 and fatties. This is in the winter and 80 % and 00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:46.940 20 % in the summer. So I think you can understand 00:55:46.940 --> 00:55:54.059 from this the main bottom. So most of what we 00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:58.280 eat, I think is based on plants and all of other 00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:02.960 kinds of types and less of what I can say about, 00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.940 you know, probably you are not, but... others 00:56:06.940 --> 00:56:10.760 that less consume the other fatties and what 00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:18.320 needs to be for creating the body and to stay 00:56:18.320 --> 00:56:23.940 alive. But this, of course, in ethnographical 00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:29.539 societies, the research was on them. So I think 00:56:29.539 --> 00:56:34.420 we kind of have an answer. And of course, plant 00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:41.519 -rich. rich, really rich in proteins and don't 00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:44.360 conclude the carbohydrate unless I don't know 00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.760 if someone emphasized them. I don't know. Yes, 00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:50.159 I mean, as a vegan, I know that, you know, we 00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:54.039 can sustain ourselves with plants only. But it 00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:56.880 is beautiful to think that I could be invited 00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.659 by our prehistoric people to a meal and You know, 00:57:01.780 --> 00:57:04.659 again, as a vegan, I would be able to eat what 00:57:04.659 --> 00:57:09.900 they had because, you know, they had most of 00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:14.440 their cooking was plant based, which is incredible. 00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:17.960 And what do you make of the fact that, you know, 00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:21.059 because I think of my grandparents and their 00:57:21.059 --> 00:57:26.900 generation before mine, and they were also, you 00:57:26.900 --> 00:57:32.090 know, relying mostly on plant food. for them, 00:57:32.389 --> 00:57:37.510 you know meat was a plus something for special 00:57:37.510 --> 00:57:43.090 events or luxury and It's the case for many cultures 00:57:43.090 --> 00:57:47.429 and I'm finding out that you know, there was 00:57:47.429 --> 00:57:52.489 this reliance on plants mostly and animal proteins 00:57:52.489 --> 00:57:58.690 were just you know a plus Can we draw something 00:57:58.690 --> 00:58:02.539 like? a link from, you know, our prehistoric 00:58:02.539 --> 00:58:08.780 people to to our more recent ancestors, like 00:58:08.780 --> 00:58:14.519 some kind of not tradition. I'm also losing my 00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:19.139 word now. Let me let me try to help you. And 00:58:19.139 --> 00:58:22.820 there is one. Of course, we know this from historical 00:58:22.820 --> 00:58:27.340 documents about feasting about, you know, meat. 00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:31.400 made food or meals, you know, great meals for 00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:35.679 the king of this and the other king, or nevermind. 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:41.199 But I can just bring an example from Epipoleolithic 00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:45.860 period site. It's called the Chilazon, Chilazon 00:58:45.860 --> 00:58:48.400 cave. It's also in Israel, the north of Israel. 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:53.840 And in this site, what the excavator, Professor 00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:58.340 Leo Grossman found, with the excavators of course 00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:02.880 is that this cave was served as a shaman cave 00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:08.039 and shaman a burial cave for the shaman shaman 00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:11.000 i'm not going inside this it's worth to read 00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:15.460 about this about this rituals i think i think 00:59:15.460 --> 00:59:18.019 you will find it and all the audience also will 00:59:18.019 --> 00:59:21.039 find it interesting and they explain why why 00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:24.269 it's interpreted as shaman and I think it really 00:59:24.269 --> 00:59:26.889 is, although we are not like to combine between, 00:59:26.889 --> 00:59:32.469 you know, kind of modern thoughts and throw it 00:59:32.469 --> 00:59:35.090 to the ancient things, but it's worth to read. 00:59:35.590 --> 00:59:41.170 And then she found evidence about feasting. So 00:59:41.170 --> 00:59:46.269 it's really high cave that it's really hard to 00:59:46.269 --> 00:59:50.130 climb to there. And inside the cave, there were 00:59:50.130 --> 00:59:58.760 three Three cattles. Three cows inside it that 00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:03.000 they were butchered and they were consumed. And 01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:08.159 it was one level of, you know, one level size. 01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:12.099 So it means that probably that some kind of butchering, 01:00:12.179 --> 01:00:14.380 the butchering is of course, but maybe also the 01:00:14.380 --> 01:00:17.760 feasting. Maybe they consume the meat that they, 01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:20.909 you know, the cattle that they butchered. And 01:00:20.909 --> 01:00:33.630 it's around the ceremonial thing around the burial 01:00:33.630 --> 01:00:38.849 of the shaman. So you can see evidence, I guess 01:00:38.849 --> 01:00:42.309 you can use it as an evidence for eating meat 01:00:42.309 --> 01:00:46.469 in special events, also in prehistory, although 01:00:46.469 --> 01:00:49.489 it's really in the edge between you know, the 01:00:49.489 --> 01:00:52.969 prehistory and actually before the agricultural 01:00:52.969 --> 01:00:55.010 revolution and after the agricultural revolution. 01:00:55.250 --> 01:01:00.789 It's really, you can point it as the dot. And 01:01:00.789 --> 01:01:03.389 I think it's pretty interesting. And again, it's 01:01:03.389 --> 01:01:07.010 an evidence. I want to also to mention something 01:01:07.010 --> 01:01:09.989 about the, you mentioned before, you know, really 01:01:09.989 --> 01:01:14.909 fast, you said those primitive, you know, ancient 01:01:14.909 --> 01:01:18.710 mans. But I think it's worth to, to open it a 01:01:18.710 --> 01:01:21.050 little bit and they think from what we discussed 01:01:21.050 --> 01:01:25.730 all of the conversation that we have now today 01:01:25.730 --> 01:01:29.110 is that we can learn that maybe we are the primitive. 01:01:29.690 --> 01:01:33.210 Maybe we are the primitive that think that what 01:01:33.210 --> 01:01:36.030 we have in our plate and when we go to the grocery 01:01:36.030 --> 01:01:41.480 shop and buy what we need. Maybe this is primitive 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:44.559 and not to go out and maybe not to involve with 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:47.380 other activities, not to participate in gathering 01:01:47.380 --> 01:01:50.980 if you want or other resources that we want to 01:01:50.980 --> 01:01:54.960 bring outside and not open our eyes to the surroundings 01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:58.199 and to understand what we have, how much material 01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:02.719 we have and we can have in our hands. And I think 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:06.380 maybe we are the primitive and not them. And 01:02:06.380 --> 01:02:12.320 I must, yeah. I think those are great parting 01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:18.460 words. I really loved this conversation. Such 01:02:18.460 --> 01:02:23.500 a treat. And my vision of our early ancestors 01:02:23.500 --> 01:02:27.579 has really changed because of you. They're less 01:02:27.579 --> 01:02:34.360 scary now. And life during prehistoric time sounds 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:38.320 less awful. You know, they had those hospital 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:44.739 caves and, you know, churches caves and they 01:02:44.739 --> 01:02:49.260 ate water lily for breakfast. So it seems cool. 01:02:49.539 --> 01:02:55.079 I mean, that's, that's a life. Definitely, I 01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:58.599 must, you know, just to be more specific, they 01:02:58.599 --> 01:03:02.119 used any kind of resources. Everything that they 01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:09.239 could use, so they say why not. Of course, they 01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:12.519 did not have the luxury of like us, you know, 01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:17.750 to... to yeah if they had to eat animals of course 01:03:17.750 --> 01:03:22.210 they would um it's uh it's understandable and 01:03:22.210 --> 01:03:25.630 uh you know i'm not trying to say that our early 01:03:25.630 --> 01:03:28.530 ancestors were vegans or something like that 01:03:28.530 --> 01:03:32.369 of course not but the fact that they relied that 01:03:32.369 --> 01:03:36.429 much on on plant based you know goes against 01:03:36.429 --> 01:03:41.619 most of what i was taught and what I watched 01:03:41.619 --> 01:03:46.699 on TV and read about, any work of fiction too. 01:03:47.820 --> 01:03:51.739 It's not the, but you have shown that it's not 01:03:51.739 --> 01:03:56.300 the reality, it's not the truth. So yes, very, 01:03:56.300 --> 01:04:01.679 very interesting and very grateful for that conversation. 01:04:03.619 --> 01:04:05.760 Hadar, thank you so much. Did you want to add 01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:14.280 something? Thank you everyone for listening. 01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:17.639 I kindly invite you to share this podcast with 01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:20.639 the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people 01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:24.300 to take action. Again, thank you so much for 01:04:24.300 --> 01:04:27.360 caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a 01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:28.079 new episode.