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We're actually doing this a second time. We're giving it another try because the first time we had some background noise and

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it made, you know, hearing us difficult. So

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thank you for being understanding and doing this a second time.

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The reason you're here is because I was talking with Andres, with whom I recently recorded a conversation about how it was important not to fall into the tribal mindset in the vegan community.

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And I asked him, you know, do you know other independent minded vegans who are outspoken about their veganism and you came up in that conversation and I thought, yes, I will platform them.

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I want to amplify their voices. I want to, you know, have more of that in the vegan community. So thank you for being here.

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Well, thanks for having me on again. Well, hopefully this time there's no problems with the noise.

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One way I introduce people to the podcast is by asking them, you know, who is your vegan hero? And I was thinking of maybe asking you this question as a way of introducing yourself.

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So, Rebecca, who is your vegan hero?

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Well, one woman who comes to mind Connie, like in the earlier days, she was referred to as the vegan bat girl. But then now she calls herself on Instagram the vegan lobbyist.

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You know, and I know last time we were talking about like all this like corruption in the food system, like she actually to my understanding she lives in Washington DC, and does actually meet with like lobbyists and people with all the, you know, she knows so much about like all the farm system

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reforms and all these bills that are trying to get passed. So I think if you really want to know like the ins and out you might want to try and get her on.

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That sounds like wow, you know, because I think right because activism can only really get us so far in a way, because I mean hypothetically if we all decided to go vegan tomorrow there'd still be all these, you know,

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laws and regulations in place, especially with what like subsidies.

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For instance, I don't know how Canada is I'm pretty sure it's fairly similar but meat dairy and eggs gets like a huge cut from the government but then it's something only about what 11% goes to fruits vegetables and grains.

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I mean there's just so much within our food system like I mean I'm trying to learn about it but it's kind of hard so to me yeah you are kind of my hero for learning all of that and then actually like getting your foot in the door on like Washington.

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That person sounds very intriguing and yes I would definitely want to get her on on the show. And is she present on social media.

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Well her Instagram is the vegan lobbyist.

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Great.

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DM you later.

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Yes, I will add the link in the episode notes so listeners can find her can look her up.

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Okay, so we decided on talking about the criticism we often receive as vegans.

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And what I did in preparation for this episode is just open co pilot the AI the Microsoft AI that no one uses and ask co pilot. Basically give me a list of all the criticism that vegans receive.

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And I got more than 30 points of criticism and I was thinking to go through some of the points in that list.

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And the classic one is of course nutritional deficiencies.

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Now, you know, what about them exactly.

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Critics claim that the vegan diet can lead to deficiencies in essential nutrients like protein, vitamin B 12 iron and calcium calcium. Yes.

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I mean, definitely.

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But that's the case for every diet.

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Plenty of non vegans have nutritional deficiencies.

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And I think that actually vegans are more aware of that because we make them aware of that because of that constant criticism and are more educated about their nutrition and the way they plan their diet than non vegans.

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But what do you make of that criticism.

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Well, I'm sure there is some truth to it but you know it's you know even outside of veganism you have to write even just like some common sense things like you have to eat like more fruits and vegetables get a variety in your diet.

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I mean the one supplement you do have to very much take is B 12 but then of course the argument is oh well if you have to take B 12 then you know then it's faulty but the reality is that at least here in the US lots of our livestock are injected with B 12.

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It's the same thing as drinking fortified milk because I think yeah there's such thing as a vitamin D milk that people drink all the time.

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Definitely I think I would reference a natural vegan and because you know she's very on point and critical everything that has to do with nutrition. She's not a nutritionist. She's not a certified dietitian.

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And I think she studied philosophy but she has critical thinking and she uses that critical thinking superpower on every walkie trend that is present in the vegan movement starting with raw veganism.

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And yeah I would definitely recommend her content to get a better understanding of you know how to plan for your vegan diet.

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I mean definitely there's a lot of information out there I know there's a what is it challenge 22 for people when they do veganuary. You've heard about that one right the challenge 22.

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Yes I think there's even just apps these days. How do you say it is it everyone debates is it chronometer or chronometer. I don't know there's debate on how to pronounce that one but right you just punch in you know the serving amount what you ate and it shows you just right the amount of calories fat and all the vitamins and nutrients.

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You can track yourself that way if you feel like something's missing. I mean I do I don't do it like every day but you know if I'm feeling like maybe I'm not being healthy you know I'll just kind of punch it in and then I'm like oh OK I need to probably eat more of this or that maybe calm down on you know some of these other things.

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I have to also name you can I talked about this app is ruining my life. No.

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Oh I just write like I actually like went through my fridge and scanned a lot of those things and I'm like holy crap. There is a well let's just say a very well known common brand of soy milk has what like calcium phosphate and then the other like minor thing that I didn't know about is that a lot of plant

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actually have dye in them. It's like wait that they're they're not. I don't know that doesn't make any sense to me for like a milk to have dye because it's like white or off weight but apparently that's die.

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Well maybe if it's like too white or something then maybe like yeah that was so crazy but go ahead. What were you saying.

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I was just saying you know I'm laughing but I'm not you know I know really passionate. I just you know I had that experience that's why I'm laughing.

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I went through what you went through the scanning everything in the fridge with with the you can happen discovering that you are eating crap.

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It is because I mean I don't know how exactly this became a narrative but a lot of people like a big criticism that people say now is like oh well vegans are just always eating beyond burgers and things and it's like you know a few years ago was kind of like

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okay yeah we never admitted that it was healthy but now you're like all these memes and things about all like the ingredients and then you know the beef is just one ingredient and it's like no there's a lot of stuff that they're giving livestock you know it's just as bad in a way but it's also true and I think a lot of vegans are kind of in denial about it

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because I mean I 100% get the ethical argument right if I'm out at a restaurant or something and the only thing I can get is you know beyond burger then yes I'm going to eat that but it's not like I'm buying that regularly all the time especially now after this app.

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I'm like holy no my fridge is starting to look a little bit like fully rocker Stina.

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I'm like holy crap. That's the the Yuka app effect and I recommend it you know to listeners truly I love hearing those stories.

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Okay let's go to another criticism point. The economic cost. Okay there's a perception that the vegan lifestyle is more expensive due to the cost of specialty products and organic produce.

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I like that it says a perception that the vegan lifestyle you know it's not fact that you know it costs more but of course if you're starting in your vegan journey and you miss the taste of animal products and you want to replicate that.

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Well it will cost a lot to purchase all of the mock meat products and I don't know if it's international like if it's also the case in the US but at least here in Canada for like six beyond meat burger patties you have to pay at least like $25.

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Yes. Oh wait to see damn like I was about to say like last time I checked it was gosh it was about maybe at least the sausage ones I saw it was about six of them for about like nine ten dollars.

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Oh what they do when out in Canada. No way. I'm telling you prices went you know up up up in Canada. Our inflation was bad holy crap.

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It is it really is. Well one thing that's really expensive here right now is strawberries like one little thing is strawberries it's like nine dollars.

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That's a regular Canadian price.

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Oh my god I would start to death in Canada.

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Anyway so yes it costs a lot to to get those special products but I guess it's cheaper to just you know purchase the lentils and the beans and.

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I mean I definitely like my lentils and then I feel like most stores at least in America like like even the store that I go to will have like a discount bananas.

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And right you'll get a bunch of bananas for what like like 65 cents.

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Like you can do that like you can find places that have you know discount prices that they may not be like organic obviously.

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But I don't know but yeah like if you stick to mainly just vegetables not too many like like exotic fruits and berries can be kind of pricey but just like generic vegetables you know beans lentils rice like that stuff actually is not expensive at all.

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Outside of the West is actually that like meat is luxury and that's expensive.

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Well let me share this story.

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So I come from North Africa and.

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Okay.

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In my native country they've had some major economic difficulties.

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So they stopped subsidizing meat and now nobody can afford meat in my native country.

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It's a loss.

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Yes it's now considered a luxury product there.

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And it's fascinating to see how you know it's one thing to hear vegan activists talk about it and you know how much the government is tipping the scale.

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But it's another to see it.

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Being concretized and the effects when the subsidizing disappear.

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Yeah I know right like it's actually crazy how much like the the the subsidies you know really make things like cheap for people like the second you take it away it's like ban is like five times the price.

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And lots of Canadian products well animal products made in Canada are subsidized and you know it's a small crowd the farmers the animal farmers they they compose like a small group.

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And they have lots of bargaining power with the government because they're very united and very efficient in you know mobilizing their resources to put pressure in the government.

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Such as true lobbyists.

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So yes they're a powerful group and they do take lots of our taxpayer money.

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As subsidies you know I I was reading Dr. Crystal Heade and she was reacting to someone saying oh I'm I'm so happy to be vegan because I'm not contributing to.

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The exploitation of animals and she just commented you are still contributing to the exploitation of sorry.

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Well I'm just saying like we like you were just saying it's it's tax dollars.

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Exactly all pay taxes like every time we swipe our credit card somewhere some small percentage of that is floating out into you know going into subsidies.

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And that's what I was saying earlier you know you know with Connie right like hypothetically if we all went vegan we our tax dollars would still be funding this.

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And that's why I'm like holy crap she actually learned all about these you know food lobbying bills I got her foot in the door and actually works with some of these people now.

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Well the thing the way I'm thinking about it is it is still good to gain more people to the vegan cause because.

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We want to show those politicians that there is a large constituency of voters that don't agree with that practice and want to see animals being liberated from exploitation.

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And that's also why I advocated for reaching out to more conservatives because if you're a conservative politician.

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Why should you care about this issue.

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If the people who are voting for you don't care about this issue then why should you.

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You know if all the vegans out there are on the left and you know they will never vote for someone on the right.

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Then you know it's done the politicians on the right will never try to seduce or charm that voting block.

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And so you're just giving away your power to some politicians.

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Well I mean to be perfectly fair like both sides like they're all like politicians are politicians they make empty promises it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on.

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Right and I know at the end of the day it really is kind of just all about money.

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So.

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Right I mean it's like neither Republican or Democrat politicians actually really care.

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Well did my real.

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Getting them to care I guess is kind of the point.

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But here's my real question.

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What about the ones we elected and who are vegan who have that power who do believe the same things we do.

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Why are they not doing more for animals.

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That's what I'm wondering you know I know that if I was elected to a you know political position.

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I would do everything in my power to help animals and that was the case of David Michel who was a past guest of the show was elected as a congressman.

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He's a vegan and you know he got so much shit for all the activism he did as a politician for animals.

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But I would have done the same you know and I'm just wondering you know the Cory Busher I think.

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Cory Booker Booker of this world who are vegan.

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What about them and more than that what about the liberal politicians who must have family members and friends and past colleagues or whatever who are vegans.

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What are those friends and family members doing you know they shouldn't they be you know trying to exploit their link with.

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I mean I completely agree with you and feel you on that one.

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It's like why aren't you doing more but gosh I mean I'm not like a politician or anything but I think there is just a lot of.

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You know kind of like bureaucracy and red tape like it actually does take a lot behind the scenes to get like bills and laws changed.

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Like I'm aware of that but I think at the end of the day like a lot of it does have to do with money.

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And if it's not going to like financially benefit them in some way and then they're not going to really make it happen.

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Okay are we ready to go to another point.

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Yeah sure.

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Family dynamics some claim that being vegan can cause friction with families especially if one if only one member follows the diet.

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That one is a killer yes.

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Yeah I was about to say who my experience kind of was a bit rocky.

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You know I ultimately you know I actually did take the liberation pledge.

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And I know some people might come for me for saying this but the liberation like you know what the liberation pledge is right.

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I'm not sure.

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Oh okay so the liberation pledge is when you like publicly refuse to like eat and like sit with people who are like eating meat and dairy like essentially.

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So a lot of people are like oh it's a form of activism and I'm like not really the liberation pledge is more like a I see it as kind of like a self preservation and like a boundary because sometimes.

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Like.

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I mean it's difficult like sometimes people are just really stubborn they will not change and then they kind of do all this really like annoying behavior that's like disrespectful and I'm like you know what you need to kind of stop putting yourself in situations that you know are going to be terrible and not end well.

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So I think it is like a self preservation thing like if people have shown you that you know they can't be respectful around you especially you know at meal times or family events then you kind of just have to walk away.

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That's how I kind of see the liberation pledge I know a lot of people are going to come from me from that one but truth be told truth be told it's really just a preservation and like boundary.

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You know but gosh it was like because I think one of the hardest things especially when you're a new vegan is realizing that a lot of people are actually kind of like just brainwashed or entitled it's like really there's peer reviewed studies.

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Then there's the slaughterhouse footage and then you're still gonna like fight it.

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And then there's the BS about veganism like what happened like they're kind of like not who you thought they were well well when I started this podcast I was asking every guest you know why do you think we became vegan.

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I gone from asking so many people about their vegan journey that it's not really our decision in a way that it just happens that we have the right personality and we came across the right message at the right time and that triggered something in us that made us want to become vegan.

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And that's why you know in a way yes it's good to become vegan but and people should but at the same time I don't feel like I made the decision to be vegan like from like free free will perspective that it just so happens that.

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You know in a the circumstances made it so that I became vegan.

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And I try to you know look at other people the same way.

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I don't want to blame them for not being vegan.

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I just want to look at their conditioning and think you know is it really their decision are they really the ones making the decision not to go vegan.

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Or is it just that they haven't been you know exposed to the right conditions to take that path.

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Yeah kind of complicated but I guess I would refer to philosophers like Sam Harris who don't believe in free will who believe in that we are all determined by our circumstances.

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And that determined determinism is the way to.

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Truly understand the way we behave and an act and I really subscribe to that I'm.

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I'm less of a free will person and more of a.

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You know deterministic.

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You know I would have to actually kind of look into that but I mean I know like.

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Or like a lot of people like they think they're making up their mind but a lot of I guess like subconscious things.

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Are actually what's really driving our behavior so.

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But what you said to me about how vegans have a kind of just right personality.

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Like to me that stands out because I mean not to like brag or anything too much but when I did.

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You know when I was confronted with you know slaughterhouse footage and.

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You know the fact that oh yeah you can actually be healthy you know you can live without this like I didn't really put up much of fight I'm just like holy crap.

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I have to go vegan.

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You know as you were saying it's almost like not a decision it's like.

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No that's like something is just like wrong with you I think like if you keep fighting that.

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But I guess a lot of people do have that so.

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Do we have type of personality.

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I guess I mean I think that is kind of a interesting thing to think about.

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Well yeah I don't want to you know create an existential crisis here and.

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But I really do believe that.

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At the end you know if you're if you're blaming big ag for.

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You know their ads the type of ads they put out and the way they influence the government to produce things like.

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Dietary guides.

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If you blame them for that and you understand that.

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People are influenceable that you know people are the results of.

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Certain triggers that you put in front of them that's why you know ads are so effective you know they.

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They are basically manipulations to make you purchase something that's why algorithms you know on social media are also that effective.

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So at the end you know.

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Is it really people's fault and decision not to go vegan or is it just the the long addition of you know ads and.

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Culture and all of that anti vegan pro-carnist messaging that makes them.

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You know think that they're making that decision of not going vegan or rejecting veganism.

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You know I'm not a philosopher so I'm not sure how much I'm well describing this but yeah that's.

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I think I'm getting to the core of it.

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I mean I definitely see that there is a lot of you know I guess like brainwashing and manipulation so.

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I don't know and I guess when everything right like when something has been so like normalized to you and then someone you know like a vegan comes out of nowhere and being like hey.

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You're being lied to they immediately I guess want to blame you and not themselves.

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Because they don't want to like face up to the fact that they have been you know kind of brainwashed manipulative because everyone wants to.

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You know act like they're the smartest person in the room or whatever.

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So I think I get what you're trying to say and then they're right like and then yes like I think there definitely is an aspect of.

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You know like our subconscious or whatever you would call it that does drive our actions and I think it is kind of our job no matter how unpleasant it is to be like hey wake up you're being brainwashed.

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Yeah I think the first time I started thinking about this was from hearing evolutionary psychologists say that.

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Most people on that row.

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Had.

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A brain concussion when they were young.

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And then you think OK are they there because they're evil people or is it just because when they were young they had brain trauma and that affected their abilities to.

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You know control their impulses their violent impulses.

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And I guess that made me think.

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You know are people really evil and not caring for animals.

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Or is it just that you know they have a form of mental trauma.

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I mean that that could be it too.

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You know that that actually kind of makes sense.

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I didn't know that.

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So like most death row people have like some sort of like brain trauma history.

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That's what he said.

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I mean I did not verify if it was true but I just made me start thinking you know.

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Maybe the way we think about them as you know it's your fault and we should punish you.

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Maybe it's the wrong way.

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Maybe those people if they really had a choice they would not have made that very bad choice.

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That that's the rational behind it.

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Sorry to I know you're not expecting.

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No.

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What I'm actually randomly thinking about right now is did you ever see the TV show The Bates Motel.

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Yes with who is that actor.

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He did.

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He did a doctor at some point who was a autistic in another TV series.

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But yes I know what you're talking about.

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The Netflix TV series.

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Because yeah in that show it's not like if anything he's like this really sweet kid.

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But then you know he because of like trauma and then he gets like the blackouts and then he just doesn't know what he's doing.

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So you're kind of thinking something like that is maybe going on.

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Yes or.

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I mean not to that extreme obviously but.

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Exactly.

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It's not like every meat eater out there is like on death row or anything or like a psycho.

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No.

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And you know I also think that in adults there is a childish part of us and that we are definitely yes always carrying a child in us and that child.

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You know is is is sometimes making the decisions for us.

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And we're not the grown ups anymore we let the child to take that place and make those and then we regret those decisions.

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And that's part of growing up and maturing.

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Yeah something like that.

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I mean I think I get what you're trying to say like there is a whole like there's so many layers.

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To this like and you know some parts of our brain that we just like simply don't understand or happen even really like discovered or really.

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I guess no enough to really articulate yet.

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Yeah that that I've never actually heard anyone bring that up before.

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Well I know that one that one's definitely new to me like I that one I don't have much of an opinion or say really.

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Well I never expressed that so that's the first time I'm talking about it but I really do see things like that.

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Yeah we can go to a new point.

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All right.

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Oh another tough one the animal testing paradox.

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There's an argument that some vegans overlook the use of animal tested medications and products.

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Yes I do believe that the vast majority of animal testing is bad and should not be done even in the medical space.

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Not only talking about cosmetics.

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But then let me share with you a conversation I recently had with my veterinarian.

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We were talking about my old cat and I don't know why but he brought up a new treatment that they were doing to I think people with cancer.

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And he was talking about how they would take some of the blood from a patient who has cancer.

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And then I think inject that in rabbits and then the cells that develop an immunity against that cancer are then extracted from that rabbit and then injected in the person.

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Something like that I'm sure I'm not you know describing things accurately but.

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Like a blood transfusion mix or something.

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Something like that.

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Like you they wanted basically to trigger the creation of a good kind of cells in the rabbit and then take those cells and put them in the patients.

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Put them back in the patients and and he talked about how efficient that treatment was and how it was good for treating cancer.

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And then you think oh gosh what if it happens to someone I care about.

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And that's the only viable thing they have on on the table you know as a possible treatment.

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Like what kind of decision you would have to to to make.

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I mean I think I'm of the opinion that if you really do need medication or some sort of life saving thing then you know we don't live in a perfect vegan world like please do what you have to do to like stay alive.

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Obviously but as far as kind of I don't know like general products like lotions so makeup like there's no excuse for that.

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Right and there's so many like products out there that are vegan now like that there's no excuse.

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Yes I think I make it sound like a difficult choice but most of us would just you know would would not hesitate to put the life of our loved ones before our own so not to speak of a rabbit that you don't know.

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I mean like it right like again like please take medication if you really need it like don't die.

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You know like I think most vegans would pretty much agree that like if you really do need a medication then please take it like and we'll still you know accept that you're vegan obviously.

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That's something I have no problem with I would never judge a vegan for making that choice and putting their life first.

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Reminds me of something I heard from a natural vegan she once said we're all moral monsters.

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Okay next one.

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Sorry that was a toner.

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Extremeism there's a perception that some vegans adopt an extreme and intolerance tense towards non vegans.

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What do you make of that one.

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Well I think I think that that's I think nuanced.

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Extreme because I mean there are some people like I mean for me especially when I first went vegan like so many people would be like oh you're being extreme you know like treat yourself once in a while or just be a vegetarian.

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So to me it's like no, having a you know basic moral line of like if you don't

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need to kill animals in order to you know live and don't do it. I mean some

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people see that as extreme but then yeah you would probably have to really

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pinpoint and be precise what exactly this supposed quote unquote extreme vegan

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is actually extreme about. This reminds me. Yes. Oh sorry I was gonna ask if like

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you have like a particular example or were you just about to say that? Yes I

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was about to give an example. Oh okay. Happened this morning I think I was

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looking through. I was looking through Reddit and there's a subreddit about

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debating a vegan and there was a non-vegan saying well this subreddit

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isn't worth much because every time you try to debate vegans on the debate of a

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vegan subreddit you get downvoted to extremes to the point that if you even

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comment then your comment is considered a spam and I thought yeah that's very

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you know extreme why do you feel the need to downvote even opinions that you

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don't find tasteful. I mean how is that interesting how is that you know

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compelling people to adopt veganism like if they see that kind of behavior and I

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know that there are lots of bad faith actors who come in that subreddit with

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the wish to you know ha you know got you a vegan I or trolling vegans but I

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think we should still enter those debates with good faith and not with the

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I'm here to own you kind of attitude like most street activists do like

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vegan street that activists are not there to win the baits they're there to

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win people to the cause of veganism and there is a real difference there. Oh god

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yeah I get what you're talking about like people kind of you know like they'll

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put like the click big title like oh vegan gets owned or you know I had to

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school this vegan and none none none like like people yes that I mean to be

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fair it's on both sides like I guess vegans do that too so do other people

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like but so yeah that I would consider like a extremist toxic behavior yes.

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I think that if you're thinking this much about vegans it's a good sign even

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if you're thinking about them negatively. Well remember how last time I was

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talking about that article about like there was that study about how like

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people are actually kind of jealous. Yes. A vegan no something about like

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jealous people across the board is that they're actually kind of like obsessed

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with you and they're like your fan right like have you ever thought about that?

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Yes. I mean there's even a category and like hashtag of anti-vegan like they

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aren't paying that much of attention to us giving us that much time and energy

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right because like people who write genuinely do not care about someone or

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something aren't you know putting time and energy into it like they act like it

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doesn't exist like if it truly doesn't bother them it doesn't like exist to them

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so the fact that people are like constantly giving all this like energy

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into it I think you know you're kind of jealous. Yes I completely agree I heard

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that somewhere online that the anti-fans are really the real fans that you know

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exactly yes. Right jealous people are actually kind of like obsessed with you

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and become your fan. I think there's something about you know how love is

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near hate or something like that. That's definitely a point too. I mean indifference

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is the worst that you could get from someone just you know cold indifference

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to your cause to which you're talking about too so if people are at least

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angry about what you're saying then in a way they're still engaged with that.

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Okay one last point. Potential harm to traditional farming communities and the

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agricultural economy. Potential harm like ruining just like small farms and

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homesteads. I'm gonna call BS on that one like how is it right just get rid of

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the animal part you're like growing crops is pretty old and traditional I mean

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agriculture was invented what like you know thousands of years ago literally.

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Reminds me. I'm calling BS on that one and there's actually this one account I

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follow on Instagram ranchers advocacy program.

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Geez can't talk today. Advocacy. Yes thank you. Right so they actually like

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they're this program that actually help farmers transition into you know just

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plant-based so I don't know I'm just I'm calling BS on it if anything it's like

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well I'm gonna write like you have animals and then you have crops but then

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you get rid of the animals I guess you're either spending less time and energy

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or you just have more time and energy for the crops and then what is the

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statistic I believe it's something like vegans only take what like a sixteenth

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of an acre per year is where a meat eater I think is like a acre and a half

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something so as vegans we're actually taking up far less land space than you

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know we would with animal agriculture which is why it's such a huge problem in

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the first place for the environment. But then how would you talk to someone who

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is a farmer like I remember I had a friend who owned well her family owned a

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dairy farm and I actually visited that farm once and when I became vegan she

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took it very personally like she's and she told me point blank you know you're

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threatening the the company of my parents of my family that what you know

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the money that put food on the table that you know sustained me paid for my

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studies all of that and you're saying that what my family is doing is wrong and

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evil how can we be friends when you take that position and you know so how

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would you respond to that? Tough luck I'm sorry but there's just so many ways to

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make money like and I know I sound like a broken record but I feel like so many

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problems really are just based on the fact that everything is always about

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money I'm just yeah sorry tough luck what you're doing is wrong like you know

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you can make money other ways yeah that's me getting spicy for the day tough luck

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well I don't remember what I told her but it feels like she tied her identity

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to the economic activity like I'm the farmer I'm and I have my place in

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society because I feed people and that's a good thing that's how I

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contribute to society like that gave her lots of pride and you know a sense of

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you know self-respect I mean I get it to an extent but then again you can still

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feed people and make money with just by growing plants like sorry tough luck and

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there are plenty of farmers out there who who made that choice you know who were

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in her position and saw the light and decided to exactly like right like I

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was saying earlier the ranchers advocacy program like they there's programs

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like that and you know it's not like where these evil people just you know

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cutting them off and like taking the rug under their feet you know I feel like

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they have that kind of victim complex it's like no we're just asking you to

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grow crops and get rid of animals like yeah like you're not the victim the

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animals are in this exactly exactly I know that that's the hill I'm dying on

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just like tough luck I yes I understand that I have nothing to say

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against that absolutely thank you so much Rebecca for having taken the time

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to to talk with me and have this conversation I had lots of fun talking

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about those those points and yeah thank you so much all right well thanks for

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actually like reaching me out again to me because like sometimes I feel like

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there was someone who was like oh sorry I have technical difficulties and then

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they like never got back to me I feel like that was just like their polite way

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of me not wanting to like be on their podcast or whatever listen I the worst

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that happened to me in this space is one big vegan podcaster I invited them on

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the show and they said yes and we decided on the time I freed an afternoon for

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dad and I prepared questions I researched and all of that and that person

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never came to oh they just did they ghosted me they ghosted me they never

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just straight up grossed you awful oh I used to listen to that podcast but I

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can't no no I just can't because I you know they're like a little ass yes they

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are kind of like ruins it for you exactly like no thank you I don't want that I

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don't want to remember that time every time I listen to the podcast

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trauma I swear there is such thing as podcast trauma so no I would never you

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know inflict that on somebody else of course now so thank you again Rebecca and

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yes thank you everyone for listening I kindly invite you to share this

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podcast with the vegans you know let's encourage more people to take action

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again thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new

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episode