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My name is Ryan and you are listening to the Vegan Report.

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I have always equated the success of the plant-based alternatives market with the success of the vegan calls.

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If more tasty products come replacing meat, dairy and egg, then veganism is winning or is it?

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Today's guest, Mio Koshiner, vegan icon and successful entrepreneur,

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made me think twice about that assumption. From food colonialism to cultivated meat,

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our conversation was a deep dive into the disconcerting world of the food industry.

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Connect with Mio Koshiner on social media also considers supporting the good work of her sanctuary,

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the rancho compasión, more details in the episode's notes.

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Thank you so much, Mio Koshiner, for having accepted my invitation and welcome to the Vegan Report.

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Hi, well, nice to be here. Nice to meet you.

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So let me start with this. I have been vegan for about 10 years and in all that time,

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I was very unsuccessful in converting my parents to veganism.

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I think I had two small victories. They ditched milk, so now they're using plant-based milk and butter.

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But what I was able to do is influence them into supporting the vegan movement with their wallet.

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And so they decided to invest in vegan businesses.

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Oh, great.

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Yes, and recently my father was complaining to me and he was saying my Beyond Meat stocks are doing horrible.

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And I was wondering what he was talking about. So I looked at the stock chart and it peaked at 10,000.

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And right now it's at like 3,000, I think. So it's not doing well.

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And I thought, oh my gosh, okay, yes, that's not a good sign for veganism as a whole.

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And then I was thinking about social media and how many posts and comments I've come across saying that the vegan momentum has gone.

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That the vegan energy that was there a few years ago is no longer there. There was something missing.

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And so I wanted to start there.

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Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love that's a great starting point.

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So tell me, what do you make of that? What is your darkness of the plant-based market and the vegan community as a whole?

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Okay, well, that's the very problem right there is that a few years ago we all got excited about what was potential, what was possible for the marketplace.

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And we conflated the marketplace with growing veganism.

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And that was the problem itself. We thought whatever was on shelf would reflect the state of veganism.

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And it turned out not to be true. So there was a lot of excitement around Beyond Meat, Beyond Meets, stock spiked.

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I can't remember when they went public was like 2020 or something, I believe.

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And then the people, the early investors made a ton of money and they sold at the right time.

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And then it's crashed. And for the last three years, it's been way down here.

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And it doesn't look like it's going to rise again. But that doesn't mean that veganism is dead.

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We have to remember that this Beyond Meets stock does not represent the state of veganism.

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And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes is that we're just conflating the success of an activist movement with how something is selling.

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And that's the problem. We've conflated veganism with capitalism as to how well it performs in capitalism.

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And it's just not a good reflection.

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Food is a very, very personal and cultural thing. Just like you said, you have trouble converting your parents.

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So you've got them to vote with their wallets. But you know, the question we have to ask is, is that really going to even move the needle for creating a vegan world?

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Because food is such a personal and cultural thing. It doesn't change overnight unless there is huge amounts of marketing dollars into it.

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I'll put into it. So if you look at food history in the United States, Americans, you know, until the Industrial Revolution, until really the 19, after I would say World War II, when package food started growing.

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And then corporations kept putting more and more into that. And we are at a point now where 70% of the food that Americans eat comes out of a package from one of the 10 multinational corporations that designed it to be that way.

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So the food system is really consolidated. But this is sort of an anomaly in the pure in history.

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Because culturally food shifts trended food, I'm sorry, food trends shifted culturally and historically at a much slower pace.

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It doesn't matter where in the world that you look.

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But there was so many marketing dollars put into television, advertising, etc. that these corporations got Americans to start eating completely differently over the last, I would say, 40, 50, 60 years.

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So unless the plant based movement wants to do the same thing and put just as much money into it, that's not the right approach to changing how people think about food.

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You know, perhaps a better way to get people to go vegan would be through touching each person from the vantage point of their own culture.

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And how can they incorporate more, not only culturally appropriate, but historically plant based foods into their diet, because most humans were historically plant based.

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So the archaeologists are now proving that with isotopic analyses that show that the nutrients, I guess, contained in bones pretty much came from plants, not from meat.

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We are predominantly plant eaters, even, you know, free history, but even throughout his throughout recorded history, even kings and queens a predominantly a plant based diet.

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So every culture has roots in plant based cuisine.

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And we are not talking about that at all.

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We are not talking about going back and actually recapturing the cultural heritage of our diets.

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Instead, we're saying to be vegan, you have to eat these new foods that are coming from corporations that have received millions of dollars.

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And that's the way to creating a future of food, which by the way, looks very American.

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It's very fast food oriented.

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It doesn't at all acknowledge that different cultures have different dietary cultural food needs at all.

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So, you know, once again, it's sort of this one size fits all and that's going to be the future of veganism.

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And maybe that's why it failed.

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And but it means that the market failed, that doesn't mean that veganism has failed.

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And that's a very important distinction for us to recognize as we think about how do we make that big shift?

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And what can we learn from that in order to advance veganism and get people to consider a more compassionate diet?

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Well, let's talk about that cultural contact that we have as vegans, because what you said rings so true with me.

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My grandmother used to say, well, the first thing she said when she learned that I became vegan was, oh, you're eating like the ancestors.

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Like I used to eat when I was a kid.

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Like this is the way we used to do it. And I was thinking about all the meals in my culture.

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So I come from North Africa and most of them are plant based or can be easily adapted to plant based cooking.

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And then I was also thinking about Buddhist countries and how they have this rich cultural legacy of vegan food.

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How come that, you know, my culture and all of those Buddhist countries and cultures and people, how come we took our distance from that plant based legacy?

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Why are we ignoring them? Well, you know, it's just like every other because money talks.

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And unfortunately, this is another form of colonialism.

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It is really the American and what's happening right now in the United States.

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We're just going to take over the entire world.

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And we're going to either do it by force or we're going to do it by infiltrating all of these countries with our foods, our fast foods that are going to make money.

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I mean, we don't need to even talk about plant based foods.

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We can go back to, I mean, the fact that hamburgers are now eating all over the world. They were not even before burgers. Come on.

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It started, you know, we can go back 100 years to or even before that. Basically, it's been through colonialism that we have infiltrated countries, brought Western foods in there.

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And right now, the plant based industry is trying to do essentially the same thing.

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It's, you know, we're going to solve the world's problems by creating the food that Americans love.

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And we're going to make everybody else in the world love them too.

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And it's a very, I'm sorry, but I hate to say it's, you know, it's, it's colonialist mindset, it's white savior mentality and mindset.

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It's not honoring that food sovereignty. We have gone in and destroyed biodiversity in crops, it all over the world.

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And from the beginning of the green revolution, which, you know, most people in the food industry don't even know about, but we have taken away the rights of a populations the world over from producing their own food and told them what to grow because it's better for them because you're starting

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and we're going to feed you and we're going to show you how to do it because only the white man knows how to do it right.

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And I'm sorry, but this is when you study food history, this is just the path it just repeats itself over and over and over again, you know, it's not just the kind of colonialism we think about or slavery that we think about but it's much, much more in subtle and insidious in that manner.

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And unfortunately, veganism, the vegan vegan capitalism, I like to call it that is following in the same footsteps as other multinational corporations in food.

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And so we have to wonder like, okay, we're trying to save animals but we're going to we're going to destroy cultural heritage and biodiversity and food sovereignty in other parts of the world is that really what we want to do.

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And is there a better way to do that. Maybe it's not through the market, maybe it's through talking to people like your grandmother and embracing the ancient wisdom that she has and celebrating this these ancient traditions and bringing them to the for bringing them to

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the public so that people know about what were the traditions in Japan when it was a Buddhist vegan country almost vegan country for 1200 years. What did they eat. And why do we never hear about it.

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And you know, why do we never hear about what people laid in North Africa, or other parts of Asia or Latin America. Why are we not bringing, why are we not reviving those foods, because we already have the answers.

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We don't need to recreate anything beautifully said makes me think of the conversation I had with the sanctuary owner working in Vietnam.

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Her name is Catherine Bash and she was telling me about all of those UN funded programs development programs, pushing dairy in Vietnam and how she witnessed how you know the dietary habits of Vietnamese people have changed because of that push and how now they're drinking yogurt and

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and other dairy products. So yes, it is well documented, and it's happening right now. It's, it's really fascinating of the influence that the US have on the rest of the of the planet.

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I guess the obstacle I see here in getting to that ideal world is cooking. I feel like people don't cook anymore. It has become alien to them and I'm so thankful and I think that connects with your personal story.

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I'm so thankful that when I decided to become vegan, I also decided to teach myself or rather ask my mother to teach me how to cook because I wanted to survive as a vegan.

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And so I was put into the position to have to cook to learn how to cook and and now I'm cooking every day and I love it. It's something that brings so many benefits in my life.

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But what do you make of that alienation we have with with cooking with cooking.

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Oh, it is a huge problem. I was in Greece recently I gave a TEDx about that, in fact, and cooking is what united us historically, because the point that I wanted to make was that we are a unique species, among other animals in that we are the only species that actually that

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forages cooks and eats together. All other species for the most part except for a few, you know, carnivores where they might catch something and then share with their their offspring or whatever.

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I mean, most animals eat in isolation. They're not they're not saying hey I found this. I found you know I forged this grass and I got some berries over here. Let's make a big salad. They're not doing that.

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We're the only species that ever foraged hunted Doug roots came over a big pot to cook something and fed each other and the community.

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And you know historically we did live in tribes and we did feed the entire tribe we it wasn't me in my little kitchen feeding myself and then, you know, you do your own thing and if you starve too bad that's not how it was.

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So we're, we are in some ways denying our biological or evolutionary nature by not cooking anymore, and not only not cooking but not eating in community.

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And I know that our, you know, our modern lives are no longer natural I get it, but there's so much more we can do. And I do believe that this could be the fall of humanity, the more separate we become,

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the more individual we become, where we are no longer taking care of each other. We have.

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We're at a point now where we think of food simply as either something tasty or something that nourishes something for us, you know, how do I get healthier how do I live the longest.

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And we don't think about how do I nourish others. How can I make something that will nourish not only myself but the entire community. And it's not just nourish their bodies, but it nourishes their souls.

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Because when you make something that's beautiful and you share it with people, our spirits are also elevated.

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And we have forgotten about that deep connection that we create with each other around the table. That is beyond just physical nourishment, but it is nourishment of the spirit and the human soul.

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And so we have to get back to that. It's absolutely critical. The more we rely on packaged foods, convenience, etc.

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And everyone says I don't have time to cook. It's simply not true. I just read a book about this about everyone thinks they're so busy.

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But when you actually sit down and track how you're spending your time, chances are you do have time to cook that meal. You just spent, you know, two and a half hours scrolling on Instagram instead, which further divides us.

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So, you know, we really do have to get back to our cultural heritage, to the sense of community, to friends, to family, to that pot of soup that we share with each other.

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Definitely. And a concrete way of doing that is, you know, cook a batch of, I don't know, vegan brownies and just go and knock at the door of your neighbor and share that with them.

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Like that's one concrete way of sharing that happiness.

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And potlucks are fun, but better than potlucks are cooking parties where you invite your friends. They don't need to prepare anything because everyone's stressed out and you cook together.

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So maybe everyone learns how to make pasta and then you make a pot of sauce, you know, and you're enjoying a glass of wine while you chat together and some beautiful meal comes together while you're having fun.

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So I really encourage people to have cooking parties. It's much better than even a potluck.

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And the thing with vegan food as a general rule, it's very inclusive. People have all sorts of dietary restrictions and vegan food is like the default universal safe option for everyone.

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Exactly. Yes. I mean, you're avoiding most of the top allergens, you know, you know, so well soy obviously or wheat possibly, but you can get rid of those easily as well too.

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So yeah, it really is a great option. And what a wonderful way to have a cooking party and explore different regions of the world and make different traditionally plant based cuisines from around the world.

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And it develops your own independence too and all of that.

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Definitely. And so what would be your advice to the vegan entrepreneurs out there? And I've interviewed a few from, you know, launching a market of, you know, vegan sandwiches, distribution of vegan sandwiches to vegan cheese.

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You have a, you know, vegan entrepreneurs of every flavor. And so what is your advice to them?

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Well, that's a very, very big question. So advice regarding what and right now, I do believe that, you know, we have just a problem with the overall food system.

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So, you know, businesses can be, take different forms. But one issue is that we live in a capitalist society that has a mandate, which is growth.

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So you always have to grow. And there's never a cap to that growth. And we, but we have a cap on the resources in the world.

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So unfettered growth simply isn't possible. So we have to think about how do you create a sustainable business? And sustainable doesn't just mean what's good for the planet.

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But, you know, you have to sustain yourself and make a profit, which most startups don't anymore, because that was sort of left by the wayside, because the mandate was just grow.

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And we just want fast-paced growth. We'll worry about profitability sometime in the future. And if you grow fast enough, then, you know, a big company will come along like a Nestle and buy you.

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And that's where you make your money. And that is kind of where a lot of startup founders set their eyes, especially, you know, even in the food industry, I was really kind of disheartened.

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I would go to shows and talk to founders and they're like, yeah, we're hoping to sell in two or three years. And, you know, and then we can retire.

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And it was like, okay, is that why you're really into this? It's just about growth and the problem. And, you know, the reality is most of these companies went under that they don't exist anymore.

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A few of them sold very few actually ever succeed enough to a point where you can have that successful so-called exit.

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But why don't we go back to a world where businesses were more local or regional and you weren't trying to get to the stars.

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You were just trying to make a living and support your family and give to your community. Why can't we grow businesses like that?

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And so I am really thinking about if you're a business startup owner and you come to me, and I do coach a lot of people, and they come to me and the first thing they ask me is how do I raise some money?

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I'm like, you're talking to the wrong person because that's representing everything that's wrong with the current food system.

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You know, we really need to get back to a more regional local economy where we can have more diversity of businesses, not just, you know, a handful of products on brands on shelf, but multiple brands in different regions that are able to have access to a market and a marketplace that will support them.

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And where they can be self-sustaining and profitable quickly so that they can actually make money and support themselves and their family.

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You know, my motto is don't worry about making a killing, worry about making a living, and that's really where we should be striving.

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If we want to fix the world's problems, if we want to save animals, remember we have to think about why are there factory farms?

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Why are there mega dairies with 10,000 cows or more?

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It's because of this mandate for growth, because if you don't grow, if you're not big enough, you can't reach profitability the way our food system is currently designed.

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So the plant-based industry is playing right into that entire game of if we're not big enough, we're not going to make enough money so we can't stay small, we can't stay regional, we can't stay local, and that herein is the problem.

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So I really believe we need an entire overhaul, and I'm trying to figure out how to do that.

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I don't have the answers, but the answer is not raising $20 million and then hoping you're going to get shelf space at Sprouts and Whole Foods.

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That's not the answer.

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That's an interesting point because I was thinking two years ago, I had just launched this podcast and I visited the Vegan Festival of Montreal and I usually visit that festival as a consumer, not as a media person.

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But this time, I was interested in the entrepreneurs behind the product and I asked them to come and be guests on the show.

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And I discovered, and it was a shock, that most of them, a great majority of them were not even vegan, yet they were selling vegan products and talking like vegans and all of that.

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And most of them, at first, they were happy to come on the show, but then they looked at my episodes and how I put the emphasis on the ethical side of veganism and not the plant-based side, more health stuff and things related to that.

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And they got scared, you know, and basically only just one of those non-vegan entrepreneur had the courage to come to the show and have a talk with me.

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And I thought, okay, so they don't really share the values of their consumers.

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No, they don't.

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And that's the other, you know, a lot of them will say, well, our consumers aren't vegans.

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We're targeting the non-vegan audience.

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Which is, you know, sure, say that, but the studies actually show that non-vegan consumers got very excited about products like Beyond initially and they went out and bought it.

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But the repeat purchase rate is very, very low.

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In other words, they don't go back and buy it a second time.

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Maybe they buy it if they've got some vegans coming over for a barbecue.

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But that's not the first thing they're going to eat.

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So, you know, everyone's just playing the same capitalist game.

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And I'm not trying to sound like, you know, a communist or anything.

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Every time you complain about capitalism, then somebody on social media calls you a commie.

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I get that all the time. I don't care.

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But, you know, it's not just a vegan problem.

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It's an overall capitalist food system problem.

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Like if we're really going to solve the climate crisis and save animals and save humans, even humans, then we really need to overhaul the entire food system.

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And we can't do it the way we're doing it right now.

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You know, we need to enter a period of degrowth of stop worrying about growth and, you know, grow like this where we're gross sideways.

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So we're creating more smaller businesses that are self sustainable.

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And, you know, trying to figure out how to do all of that, but more community based organizations.

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You know, at the end of the day, vegans have to support people to.

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You know, I am an intersectional vegan.

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And that I don't just, yes, we got to save animals, but you're not going to save animals as long as we're in a capitalist economy, because the most efficient way of creating animal products is by creating mega farms.

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So if we want to reverse that trend, we have to overhaul the entire system.

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We can't just put replacement products out there.

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They're also important. I'm not saying that we can't have replacement products, we should.

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You know, it's a mold, it's got to be a multi prong approach, but that's it's so much more complicated than that.

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And would you say that smaller companies are at least more community based that are in that have a relationship truly with their consumers.

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Yes, and they know what, well, I want to go back to what you mentioned, the Vietnam thing.

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Yes.

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So I was in Vietnam a few years ago.

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And I remember seeing exactly what you were talking about, I saw this giant Nestle billboard promoting the health of dairy and bringing whatever it was, good dairy goodness to the poor people of Vietnam.

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I don't know, it didn't say that, but it was something like that. And then I also talked to and I was like shocked because there's no history of consuming dairy in Vietnam, or most of Asia.

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And why did they need it. And so when we talk about consolidation and giant corporations, etc. And you said that, you know, the UN went into places like Vietnam and said, you know, we're bringing good dairy nutrition to, you know, the women of Vietnam or whatever.

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And the UN, who I love the UN, I think there's great programs at the same time. There's a lot of money coming in from certain powers that be.

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And, you know, we've got to separate the corporations from policy from governments, because there we know that's what's driving it.

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And so not all, not everything that comes out of the UN is going to be good, because it's backed by certain corporations, you know, where's that dairy coming from.

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You know, we did the same thing, Nestle did the same thing in India. They went into India back in the, I can't remember when it was 1940s, 50s, 60s, I can't remember.

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And said, here, we've got this baby formula. And it's better than breast milk. And we did the same thing in Africa.

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And it, all these kids got sick. These moms didn't do, you know, the, all these kids got sick, because it was missing.

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We didn't have good nutritional sciences back then. And they didn't know there was a thing that wasn't a macro nutrient.

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I think it was colostrum that wasn't in the formula. And all these babies got sick.

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But, you know, why would we force formula onto people, onto certain populations, really to help them, or to find an opportunity to find a market to run a test to see whether or not it was going to be healthy.

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I mean, these, these efforts, when we go into other countries and say, look at our magic product, it's going to save your country, your starving population.

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We really have to wonder what's behind that. And I have to ask the same question of these plant-based companies, you know, that are trying to, you know, it's like, we're going to take our vegan burgers to Asia.

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Why? Why are we doing that?

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And, and yet, I think there's also a link between that type of doing business with the quality of the product.

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And there is something major that I feel like it's major that happened in my life last summer.

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I discovered a nap called Yucca. I don't know if you heard about it, but it allows you to scan food products, but also cosmetics.

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And they will give you a breakdown of the additives inside them and tell you, you know, each additive, what are the studies, you know, how it was determined that it was toxic or not.

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And also if it, if it is banned in other countries, and it was a horrifying experience to scan the products I had at home, because like maybe 50%, if not 60% of all that I own was full of toxic additives that have been banned from European Asian countries for years.

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And we're still there. And it made me, now I have to scan everything, of course.

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And I always play the game of looking at the package and the marketing and trying to guess what kind of additives are, if this product is good or not.

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And every time I'm surprised, you know, I see the power of the packaging and the marketing.

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Because every time I'm mistaken, you know, I think that this product really looks trustworthy and will really, you know, hail my dry skin or whatever.

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And then I scan it and it's like there are six high risk additives inside this.

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And five of them have been banned from the European Union.

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So is there, is this a consequence of the way we're doing business, having those low quality products?

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I mean, I think so. I mean, in a lot of food companies, I was talking to a small food company the other day.

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You know, they wanted to scale and they wanted to know what they would have to do to extend shelf life.

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And, you know, I had an honest conversation. I told them, look, you know, you can hire a food scientist or you talk to a co-packer and they'll help you formulate it to extend the shelf life and you'll do all this testing and all of that.

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And they may make you, they may suggest certain additives or ingredients, changes to enhance shelf life.

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And we are no, and many of them appear clean. Many of the, the ingredients appear to be, you know, they pass a clean label perception. We'll put it that way.

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But in fact, they're not, they're not as clean as you would think.

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You know, my rule of thumb is if you can't make it in a kitchen, probably shouldn't be making it. You know, it's probably not something that you want to have.

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And I think you see these memes all over social media, but, you know, they'll have a box of cereal with the ingredient panel, the same cereal sold in the United States versus Europe in the EU.

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And the, you know, the label in the EU is six ingredients long versus 18 in the United States. So there's a lot of stuff that is thrown in for expediency for shelf life.

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And a lot of that is driven by retailers because back in the day, like 40 years ago, grocery stores did not expect you to have shelf life that was as long as what's required today.

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So, you know, if you had, if you made a fresh product, like I'm going to some sort of dairy product, you know, it had maybe had a three week shelf life, and that's the way it was.

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And today, you know, it's got to have three months or six months or longer, the better, because the distribution has changed. It used to be that we had local distribution.

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So maybe you were a cheese maker and you drove your cheeses around to the local stores and then you checked up on it.

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You know, it used to be that the bread makers would go to the stores every day and change out their bread.

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And then you started adding more stuff to it so that your bread could stay on shelf for a week or two weeks or so until it got stale.

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And so this has been because, you know, we've gone to more national distributors and let's say you make a product and you ship it with a distributor, it might sit in their warehouse for for three weeks before it goes to a store.

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So by the time that it's gotten to a store, it could be, you know, four to six weeks from the time that you shipped it.

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And so you've got to think about long shelf life. So what do you do then.

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And so it's our entire system. It's not just we can't just point fingers at the ingredients. The system, in some ways, forced the this long ingredient list.

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And so that's why it goes back to the fault of this mandate for constant growth, and which leads to consolidation and big, bigger, bigger control of the food system by just a handful of companies, both retail and in terms of actual products.

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And we've got to decentralize because if we don't, it's going to be harder and harder for small entrepreneurs to get a foothold.

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And I wonder how did you come to those conclusions, because I feel like you're behind one of the most recognized, you know, brand in the vegan community.

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And at first, when I started hearing you say all of those things, I thought, this is going from me, Yoko, how come, you know, so what triggered that?

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Well, you know, I've been in food for a long time. People don't know this. I mean, a lot of people don't. But my very first food company was back in the 1980s.

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And then I had an alt meat company back in the 1990s.

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And so I had been making and distributing food for a long time. And the food industry has changed incredibly.

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You know, when I first started baking in the United States, I had a little bakery. I made these fancy cakes, and then I delivered them in the back of my Volvo station wagon to all the natural food stores in the Bay Area in NorCal.

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You know, I went as far as Sacramento and, you know, as far south as San Jose and all around the Bay Area delivering my cakes.

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And everything had a short shelf life. And this was the 1990s and everybody was fine with that.

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And now, you know, you couldn't do the same thing.

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So I've witnessed a change in the consolidation of the food system, how less organic it became in terms of, I don't mean organic in terms of organic foods, but just, you know, individual contribution.

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So I've seen that change. But you know, just in the company that I started that I'm no longer associated with, I tried to make those products as clean, you know, I wanted, I never wanted them to be anything other than what you could make in the kitchen.

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So the initial recipes were basically based out of recipes in my Artisan Vegan Cheesebook.

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So, you know, just about anything you can make in your own kitchen. And that's kind of how I wanted it, because I really believe that is what food should be like.

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But over the last couple of years, you know, I really began to, as I witnessed what was going on with the whole market and brands not doing well and all of the different, the ingredients that kept creeping up into all of these

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newer products and things. I really just started questioning like, what should food be about? Is this the direction that we want food to go? Because it wasn't like that 30 years ago when I got started in food.

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You know, the ingredient panels have just multiplied in terms of the number of ingredients in there, and people just expecting that to be normal.

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And so I just started questioning it. And over the last couple of years, I've really just realized that it's not just about ingredients. It's not just about the plant-based market.

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It's not just about our industry. It's part, those are just representative. Those are symptoms of a much bigger problem.

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And that we needed to think beyond the industry and study the economic system that we're based in, as well as food history to understand how did we get here.

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And I don't think enough people in the industry are doing that. They're looking at just a microcosm. It's very, you know, they have a very limited view.

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And I don't have the answers, but, you know, I don't think I could do, I would not ever, ever, if I were to start another food company, I would never, ever do it the way I don't want to be part of the so-called CPG, consumer packaged goods industry.

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I don't think that's going to solve the world's problems.

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And that way of doing things is really undermining one major argument for veganism, which is the health argument.

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Because, you know, you can no longer say, oh, vegan food is, you know, the best in terms of health benefits, because then you have people showing you all of the mock meats, all of the mock cheese and all of that.

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And how much additives are in there and how manufactured it is, how, you know, it's really not healthy and doesn't look healthy.

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And if you scan it and I tried scanning every mock meat products with that you can have, for instance, there were only a few mock meats that passed the test, that did not have any.

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Did not have just a frightening list of additives.

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So, yeah, it's, I feel like it's also undermining the mission, the vegan mission.

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I completely agree.

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And we tend to ignore it.

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I mean, we've gotten so acclimated to all of these things in our food.

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And we've gone to a point where we celebrate technology. I mean, we're so enamored with technology and look what they can do.

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And we've forgotten that food is something you make in your kitchen.

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That comes from vegetables and legumes and grains.

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And that's where the real magic happens, you know, we have, we think that food can't exist unless a food scientist has created it.

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But it wasn't food scientists that created foods for most of human history, it was ordinary people, women, cooks, chefs, shepherds, whatever, you know, and we need to get back to that.

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I just can't reiterate enough that we need to start celebrating our cultural histories and heritage, rather than pushing it away and believing in the technological God to save us.

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If we're talking about technological gods, then we should also touch on the topic of lab grown meat, and which is looked upon as really the savior of the vegan movement.

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Like the, it's the ultimate thing that will just resolve this issue once and for all. If we can break through the lab grown meat technology, then we will no longer have slaughterhouses.

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And, you know, it's done, you know, that's the end of the vegan movement. What do you make of that idea?

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Well, I mean, there's, there's a lot to unpack right there, but aside from the fact that there's plenty of people that know much, much more than I do about the science that say technologically it's just, you know, so far out in the distant future that it's just not going to happen fast enough to save any animals.

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So there's that there's the amount of water and energy that's necessary to create these things. One of these, I think it was just that was selling a little bit of meat in Singapore and then they started serving it at bar Cren in San Francisco, which is a plastic free

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establishment, by the way, and then it turned out that the meat was not actually grown in bio reactors, but it was grown a little plastic bottles, and they needed something like 30 plastic bottles to make one ounce of it or something like that.

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So bar Cren got rid of it.

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So, you know, there's a lot of, I would say untruths that were being fed, because there's a lot of money in it.

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Once again, there's a lot of money that's been put into it, and these investors want their return.

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And so they have to continue spinning these myths that get people to believe in it. And one of the myths is the reason none of these products have succeeded yet is because they are not an exact replica of meat.

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And so all we have to do is create the exact replica of meat. That theory is not founded in any science or survey or study whatsoever.

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And we if you repeat something enough, you begin to believe it and that's exactly what's happened.

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But there is nothing that says that it has to be an exact replica of meat. Another thing that I often like to talk about is the fact that they're targeting the wrong audience.

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So, if we talk about early adopters and you know there's some there's this theory of diffusion, their curve that it's like a bell curve basically says that like 2% of the population consists of innovators and then there's like 13% that are the early adopters and then there's the early majority, the late majority, and then the laggards, you know, that are at the other end of the spectrum.

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And when you think about the fact that 50% of the meat in the United States is consumed by only 12% of the population, which would represent the laggards.

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You wonder why are we making burgers then, because if we're trying to get people the people that eat the most burgers to stop eating burgers, then the people that are eating the burgers aren't interested in plant based foods.

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So they're not the early adopters. Do you see where I'm going with us. So it's the same thing with lab lab based meat.

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The people that you know the early adopters are happy to give up meat.

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They're happy to eat beans. The earth you know I know a lot of early adopters that are driving their electric vehicles.

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And when they talk to me they're like yeah you know I'm trying to reduce my meat intake and I'm looking for some good bean recipes the avenue.

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They're not asking me what's the best meat alternative.

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They're asking for an exact replica. And to them the idea of something grown in a laboratory is disgusting, because they don't want additives. They want something natural.

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So it's the wrong audience. You know the billions of dollars that have been put into this, saying that this is going to save the world.

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They don't even understand the market. They don't understand human psychology or culture or anything.

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Look at quinoa. Quinoa appeared out of nowhere.

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And people started eating quinoa. The early adopters started eating quinoa.

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The people that are going to actually migrate to plant based foods started eating foods they had never ever heard of.

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Quinoa didn't taste just like meat. They didn't care. It was nutritious. It was high in protein. It tasted good.

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Why aren't we spending so much effort and money trying to recreate the thing that we're trying to give up?

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Why don't we just create beautiful dishes out of beans and vegetables and unleash the potential of the things that we already have?

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It's just stupid in my opinion.

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Why don't we hear more of that? We don't want to speak badly about lab grown meat.

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Even if we think that this is not the way because maybe it could harm the veganism. It could harm the cause.

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I disagree. I think we need to speak badly about lab grown meat because it's taking resources away from advocacy, activism, teaching people how to cook.

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The Got Milk campaign, for example, really, really did a number on getting milk consumption to rise.

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Or the anti-smoking campaign got people off of cigarettes.

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If we could take all of the resources that have been put into lab grown meat and all of this and actually put it into a campaign to get people to eat more beans or vegetables,

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that would have so much more impact. So I think it's actually harmful.

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And I think it's misguided and it's stupid. But these campaigns, if you were to put that campaign, you know, the money into a campaign to get people to eat beans, there'd be no return for investors.

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There's no money in getting people to eat beans. But if you could get people to eat lab grown meat, there's money in it.

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Again, you know, I never heard that before, I have to say, in all honesty. And before coming to this conversation, I did have a more sympathetic view of lab grown meat.

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But now I'm starting to question that.

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And I've already started hearing some criticism of not from vegans, but from non vegans about how lab grown meat is just basically cultivating tumors in a lab.

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And I've heard that through the lens, through a more militant lens.

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And I just dismissed those opinions as being, you know, anti vegan. But I think I should review that and think about it more, more critically.

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Well, I don't know about the scientific part about, you know, growing tumors in a lab that is very, very possible.

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Although I did hear, I did read an article about a bias scientist that spoke about how there's no immune system in lab and in these bioreactors.

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So if there's a bacteria or a virus that gets in there, it could proliferate within the meat itself.

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So, but that aside, overall, we don't need a food system that's driven by money. That is the biggest evil of all.

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And I heard the CEO of a lab grown meat company saying, yeah, they're going to go to Africa and build bioreactors and give the Africans meat.

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Why are we, it's just colonialism, it's white savior mentality all over again. We have to stop that. That is not the answer to solving the food crisis in the world.

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It is simply not. We don't need resources going into that. Honestly, I think it's evil. And I'm putting it out there.

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And I think a lot of people in the industry have written me off because I've been outspoken about this.

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You know, I was on the fence for a long time, really wondering, can this really save the world?

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And I really, I talked a lot and over time, I really, the more I thought about it, it's no different than Nestle or the UN going into Vietnam and getting people to drink milk.

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There's absolutely no difference. You do it because there's an opportunity for the wealthy to get richer.

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And that is not how we, the only way we can save ourselves is by reinstating food sovereignty and, you know, providing resources in that way.

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Well said. Maybe as parting words, because I want to be respectful of your timing ago.

329
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I'm sorry, I'm so opinionated, but no, no, no, it's, it's right in the alley of this podcast. So I'm happy to hear you say that and be outspoken about it.

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Maybe as a parting words, we've spoken about some of the evils in the future of plant based food or vegan food.

331
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But what about some of the more encouraging evolutions in the future of this movement and market?

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Do you see anything that you might want to share?

333
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I think we need to move more towards community event, community organizing.

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People live in communities, people need the support of others.

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And I think there are community based efforts that vegan organizations could provide to their local communities to increase interest, participation and support for those that might be interested in eating a plant based diet.

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And it could be, you know, it could be distributing plant based, could be like, I don't know, a plant based CSA providing local produce, it could be providing free cooking classes, creating some sort of a community center, community garden where people can come in and pick vegetables.

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At the same time, there's a cooking class. I think there's many more ideas for engaging the community in which you live and becoming inclusive, bringing people in, helping them, giving back to them, rather than saying buy my product.

338
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How about if we give rather than just take?

339
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Definitely. And I'm thinking I need to give that example. Lebanese vegans, they have this whole program of feeding homeless people.

340
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I love that.

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And it's all plant based, you know, the meals that they serve. It's just beautiful. I agree with that.

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That's the direction we should be going. I wish the vegan philanthropists, the people that are sinking money into, you know, into all of these high tech solutions would actually direct their money to more community organizers to community organizations like the Lebanese vegans.

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I know that the in the black community, they're doing a lot with their communities to help their people. And, you know, we could be doing that in every community.

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And that's the way to kind of grow it. We have to normalize veganism. We have to normal without getting people to think that they have to buy these special products.

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And that's part of the problem right now is a lot of people think I can't go vegan because it's too expensive because I can't afford those products.

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And we have to show them that's not what veganism is about.

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And let's help revive these. Can you imagine like if people from different backgrounds could help revive their cultural heritage within some sort of community based vegan organization, we could restart celebrating our own, you know, all of our

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different heritage is and share them with each other and come together because we need community more than ever today.

349
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Yes, that's beautiful. Veganism being a tool to bring about a better world for everyone and a concrete way of doing it. That's what I understand from it. Yes.

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So, Miyoko, thank you so much. I was not disappointed by our conversation. I mean, oh, so many exciting ideas. So thank you so much for having taken the time to share them with me.

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Well, it was a joy. Thank you.

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Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people to take action.

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Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.