1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,880 Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and today we are taking a close look at the documentary 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:17,040 Christ-Piercy. There's a strong impactful and clear Christian argument for veganism and my hope 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,640 was for Christ-Piercy to successfully make that argument to the Christian community. 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:29,120 But I discovered that this is not what the documentary is about. What I watched was 5 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:38,000 a patchwork of extraordinary claims that deserved some review. And who better to deliver that review 6 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:45,600 than today's guest Daniel Mascarenhas. Daniel is a Jesuit seminarian currently studying to become 7 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:53,280 a priest. He's also the activist behind vegancatholic.org, the resource for anyone 8 00:00:53,280 --> 00:01:00,480 interested in understanding why Christianity and veganism go hand in hand. You will find in the 9 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:07,440 episode notes a link to vegancatholic.org and also a link to watch Christ-Piercy for free. 10 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,080 It goes without saying that this episode contains major spoilers. 11 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:21,360 I watched the documentary and I wrote down some comments and questions because I knew I was going 12 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:30,320 to talk with you and I kept thinking about you while watching the documentary. And first of all, 13 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:40,720 sorry, I think I forced you to watch the documentary. And also I want to start with something that is 14 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:52,720 prevalent in that film. And it's the sense that the life of the documentary makers is in danger 15 00:01:53,440 --> 00:02:03,200 and that the church is going against them or will retaliate in some way. And I have to say, 16 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:12,080 I was very skeptical of those claims, starting with the fact that I know you and I know how 17 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:19,520 outspoken you are about veganism and animal ethics. And I was thinking, but Daniel never had his life 18 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:27,680 threatened by the church for speaking up. So can you tell us about that? Is there some conspiracy 19 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:35,600 out there, censoring Christians who speak about animal ethics? 20 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:42,560 The short answer is no. I have never felt threatened. I did not pay much attention to that 21 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:48,720 aspect of it. Now that you bring it up, I just thought it was a side show. No, if any of your 22 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:55,600 listeners are listening here, there is no such conspiracy as far as I'm aware. Nobody has ever 23 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:02,560 said anything to me as a priest in training. I have not seen any drones outside my window 24 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,880 anytime. I think it's a little bit of a, first of all, it's hard to say when you say what is 25 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,680 the church, right? I'm Catholic. There are many other Christians who are not Catholic. 26 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,360 So when the church goes after somebody, what do you mean by the church? Is it a Catholic church? 27 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:27,520 Is it a Presbyterian? Is it a Methodist? So in the documentary, it's unclear 28 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:35,840 who exactly is angry with the producers, right? I have heard not from a church, but from 29 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:42,800 more like a corporate executive, corporate America, they don't want their profits to be 30 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:49,200 harmed by any movement towards veganism. And so activists who go undercover and try to take 31 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:58,880 videos and things like that, they are gone after by corporate America, because 32 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,560 usually money is the main driver for these kinds of things. I don't think the church, 33 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:11,680 as far as I know at the Catholic church, doesn't stand to make or lose money in this fight of 34 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:17,760 whether we should eat meat or not. On the other hand, companies that own factory farms and sell 35 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,360 products in the market obviously have a lot to lose if people stop eating meat. And so they would 36 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:30,480 have an incentive to do something like that. But I found that to be a little overdramatic and 37 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:38,240 tangential to the topic at hand. And let me add that in our last podcast, you talked about how 38 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:51,200 Pope Francis took a very friendly position to animal advocates and animals. He mentioned, 39 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:58,800 I think, in one of his messages to the church that we should interpret dominion over animals as 40 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:08,320 stewardship, basically, with the makers of the movies we're talking about. And I kept thinking, 41 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:19,200 I don't think Pope Francis would be shocked or would feel like sending the army Swiss guards 42 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:28,080 after the makers of that documentary if we're talking about the Catholic church. Because yes, 43 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:38,080 I did find that they were using all sorts of labels in the most confusing way. Church is one 44 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:47,840 of them. Religion is another. I feel like they were confusing religion and spirituality, but also 45 00:05:47,840 --> 00:05:58,240 religion and ethics and morality. All of that was very confusing. Yes. I think it's hard to put a 46 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:04,960 clear label on who is in charge. First of all, you have so many different religions. And then 47 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:10,320 in Christianity, you have so many different denominations. And even as a Catholic, 48 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:17,440 people think that whatever the pope says is final. If I don't listen to the pope, the pope will send 49 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:23,200 his army. Not really. First of all, the Vatican city is so small. And secondly, that's not how 50 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,800 our fate works. We have different levels of authority. The scripture is the highest authority, 51 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,520 and that's probably what I would want to discuss the most. But even if the pope says something, 52 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,200 it is not binding on Catholics. It is the way he says it. Is he speaking from his office 53 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:45,200 of the chair of Peter, or did he just say something while giving an interview? And those are two very 54 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,960 different things. If the pope is speaking from authority, he says so, and then he gives a 55 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,640 statement. If he's merely talking to a journalist at a different level of authority, and I'm 56 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:03,040 completely free to disagree with the pope if he's not speaking from authority. You mentioned how 57 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:08,400 the ultimate authority is the scripture. So let's talk about the scripture and something that is 58 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:15,680 core to Christ's piracy, which is this new interpretation of what happened at the temple. 59 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:25,680 Now, they find, I think they found a translator to present under a new light, what might have 60 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:36,560 happened between Jesus and the temple people. So there were many claims mixed up with that. 61 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:45,840 First of all, that the temple was basically a big slaughterhouse, and that what Jesus was reacting to 62 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:56,400 in there was not so much the financial part, the money, but the animal sacrifices. 63 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:04,720 So what do you make of that interpretation of the scripture in that episode? 64 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:13,280 So one of the critiques I heard of that section was the producers go to a Hebrew scholar and not 65 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:21,440 a Greek scholar. The New Testament, the gospels are part of the New Testament, were written in 66 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:27,520 Greek, not in Hebrew. So in the Christian Bible, you have the Old Testament and the New Testament. 67 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:34,000 The Old Testament, large parts, almost all of it, was written in Hebrew and then translated to 68 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,640 Greek, and that's called a Septuagint. It was translated officially, if you may, and there's 69 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:46,880 some talk about divine intervention because 70 different scholars translated the Hebrew to the 70 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:52,640 Greek in exactly the same way, and hence it was considered to be a divinely inspired translation. 71 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:59,920 The New Testament, on the other hand, was written in Greek from the start. Of course, 72 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:05,680 there could be Hebrew translations made after that. I don't know. There should be. The New 73 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:09,760 Testament has been translated into every language possible, so I'm sure there's a Hebrew translation 74 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,960 of the New Testament. So if they were looking for what the original says, it would make sense to go 75 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:23,440 to the Greek, not to Hebrew, because Hebrew would be one step removed. In the Greek, it does mean, 76 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:30,000 and I'm not a Greek scholar, so I asked somebody else, and the word does mean robber or thief. 77 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Now when we think of robber, we can have all sorts of ideas about robbers. We can think of pirates. 78 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,000 We can think of pickpocketers. We can think of burglars. We can think of people who mug. 79 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:50,640 Now those who mug people are a little more violent than pickpocketers, right? So there's a whole 80 00:09:50,640 --> 00:10:00,160 level of what a robber or thief is in any context. But what would be common to all of that would be 81 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:08,640 taking something that is not yours. And so if you apply that in the temple situation, 82 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:16,560 it seems like there might have been some sort of conspiracy as to how much money they would take 83 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:23,520 from people to conduct a sacrifice, both from a ritual standpoint to offer a sacrifice, 84 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,840 but also from meat consumption, because they could only eat. 85 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,520 There are different interpretations of this or different ideas of what kind of meat could 86 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:39,040 be slaughtered, but even today we have kosher meat, for instance. And so the idea was that you could 87 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,360 only eat meat that was slaughtered in certain places, which also kind of connects with what 88 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:53,520 St. Paul talks about later. And so sometimes my understanding of it is how you have in today's 89 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,440 world, when you have no competition, they can start charging more and more prices. That's why 90 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:03,520 we have antitrust laws, right? And so if there's only one place where you can get your meat, 91 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,680 then they have full control over the pricing. And then they would take a lot of money or take 92 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:13,200 a large amount of the animal flesh for themselves. And so you would think of them as robbers. 93 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:19,600 Or thieves, because they are price gouging. And in that sense, yeah, they are robbers and thieves. 94 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:26,640 They are taking money from people and kind of gatekeeping religious practice, but also 95 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:36,400 a food source. And so Jesus is angry because now the temple is no longer about living the law, 96 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,520 the Torah, which is very important for people, but it became more about how much money I can 97 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:51,760 get out of people. And so Jesus is angry, which kind of makes sense. So for me, that is a bit 98 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,680 of a stretch, the way the producers talk about it as the translation is wrong. Well, the translation 99 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:04,240 is probably correct, at least because it's from Greek, not from Hebrew. And as far as we know, 100 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:11,760 that was the reality of the temple, that it was used to kill animals, both for ritual purposes, 101 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:18,240 to offer sacrifice to God, and also as a source of meat, because the animal had to be killed in a 102 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:24,960 certain way, according to Jewish customs. Because remember, at this time, Jerusalem, the Holy Land, 103 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:32,240 was part of the Roman Empire. And so not everybody was Jewish. There were also a lot of Roman 104 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:38,880 people and other people in the area. And they had their own sources of food, which, because they 105 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,080 did not care about these rituals, but the Jews, those who were trying to follow the Torah, 106 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:53,840 were trying to keep these laws. And so I think, I don't think we can establish clearly that 107 00:12:53,840 --> 00:13:00,000 Jesus was angry because of the meat trade, or he was just angry because of the way the money was 108 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:05,520 being overcharged. And I just want to make this point before I forget it. Like I had mentioned to 109 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:13,680 you that a lot of these conversations about whether Jesus ate meat or not is sometimes problematic, 110 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:19,760 because we cannot know for sure, because it's not directly said anywhere in the Scripture. And so 111 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:27,200 people say, oh, because we cannot know something, it doesn't matter. No, I mean, we cannot know many 112 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,600 things about Jesus. We cannot know, for instance, what he said about slavery, because it's not 113 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:38,960 mentioned in the Bible. Did he own slaves? Probably not, because he was too poor. Would he have 114 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:47,200 owned slaves if he had more money? Who knows? But that doesn't mean that we should have slaves today, 115 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,480 just because it's not clear in the Bible. And so I think we have to be careful when we try to do 116 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,920 this historical analysis, that there's a common tendency that if we cannot know something, 117 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,360 there's no point in trying to think about it anymore. And so people will say, oh, there's no 118 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:10,400 way to know that Jesus ate meat or not. He probably ate meat. So it's a free for all now, 2000 years 119 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:16,880 later. And so I just want to be careful when we do these historical analysis to keep in mind that 120 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:22,400 there's going to be uncertainty and how do we deal with uncertainty is an important aspect of this. 121 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:31,680 That's a really great point. Let's go back quickly to that interpretation of that episode of the 122 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:42,720 temple. My first question, from what you said, is it convincing or does it matter for everyday 123 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:54,960 Christians, the nuances of what happened at the temple? I feel like they make it a big deal in the 124 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:04,400 documentary, but I feel like everyday Christians would not care that much about that, because it's 125 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:11,360 really in the details and it's about technicalities of translation. I feel like this is something 126 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:19,520 that would go way above the head of your average Christian. And also, I feel like there are more 127 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:32,000 convincing arguments based on scripture to influence or convince someone of considering veganism, 128 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:41,280 considering protecting animals. And you do make on your website, vegancatholic.org, 129 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:49,360 those arguments. For instance, you talk about the Garden of Eden and how it's the ideal 130 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:57,280 place and how there was no animal consumption. So can you address those two points? 131 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:04,320 Yeah, since a lot of the arguments depend on a translation of one word, for me, that is 132 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:11,120 putting a lot of pressure on one word. And as I said, they are using Hebrew for some reason, 133 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:20,240 which doesn't make sense. Also, if Jesus was really against animal sacrifices or the temple 134 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:32,480 situation, why did he not say anything elsewhere? And then eating fish and fishermen and so on. 135 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,160 Sometimes the argument used is that, well, Jesus did not write the Bible, other people wrote the 136 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:45,040 Bible, so maybe Jesus said he was vegan, but the gospel writers are not writing down. Well, 137 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:50,960 that's where the element of faith comes in. We believe that the writers of the books of the 138 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:56,640 Bible were human, but they were inspired by God and God's Spirit was working within them. 139 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:07,360 And for 2000 years, God's Spirit works in all of us who are believers and kind of keep the faith 140 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:16,720 alive. So it would seem like either God or God's Spirit was deceiving us or incompetent 141 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:23,520 in misleading us for 2000 years. So a big thing for the Catholic faith is that we have a continuity 142 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:34,400 of our faith. And so the idea that it is not there in the Bible or we mistranslated one word, 143 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:41,760 or we mistranslated one word for 2000 years and we've been misled for so long, it kind of goes 144 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:47,280 against the basic ideas of our faith that the Spirit would have prompted us about something 145 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:57,440 that is so important. Now, that's why I always talk about a bigger picture of reading the Bible 146 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:07,520 and understanding our faith. As you pointed out, the Garden of Eden. So from Jesus, the discipleship 147 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,880 standpoint, I've always maintained, I'm a vegan, but I always maintain that if there's no other 148 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:22,000 option, one can eat animals as a human, because in our tradition, humans are like the highest 149 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,480 creature among, well, not really, angels are supposed to be higher than them. So humans are 150 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:35,520 the highest in this world, okay, on planet earth. And so we have dominion over other creatures. And 151 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:46,400 so we can use animals as far as needed. Okay. And that has to be balanced with the general call for 152 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:55,200 kindness and compassion, right? Jesus always talks about loving your neighbor, about serving those in 153 00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:04,960 need, helping the poor, helping the widow, helping the orphan. That idea is to help those who are 154 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:12,720 oppressed, who are on the margins. And so I talk about it in terms of that, like obviously a dog 155 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:21,200 is not a human, but a dog has a capacity to receive kindness. As far as I know, an oak tree 156 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:27,760 doesn't have a capacity to receive kindness in the same way, right? And so if a dog can receive 157 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:34,960 kindness, I ought to show a dog kindness. And if a plant doesn't receive kindness in the same way, 158 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:42,960 and so I can use a plant for my sustenance instead of a dog or a cow, because showing kindness to a 159 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:52,000 dog or a cow would involve not killing it. So to take a step back from what is in the Bible, 160 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:58,480 that is more explicit and not about mistranslations, is the book of Genesis. So in the book of Genesis, 161 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,920 which is the first book in the Bible, but it was not written as the first book, it was written much 162 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:12,400 later when the Israelites were in exile in Babylon. But since it's the first book of the Bible, 163 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:20,320 it talks about creation. So this is how the Israelites, God's chosen people, saw their role 164 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:27,120 in the universe. And so that's the way they felt inspired that this is how God created the world 165 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:33,120 and where they stood in it. And so that is like a foundational text of where do we see ourselves 166 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:39,360 in God's creation. And in chapter one, it's God says that we should eat seeds and plants. 167 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:47,440 And then in chapter two, God says he creates animals as companions because the first human 168 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:58,640 was feeling alone. And so the idea that even these people who lived in a land that was quite dry 169 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:04,880 and they needed animals to use the hilly terrain for grazing and obviously have to slaughter or 170 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:13,600 milk them, also realized that maybe the idea that originally this good and compassionate God would 171 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:20,320 have intended something that is free from violence. But then violence came into the world through our 172 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:27,840 own sin, that is the fall, right? When Adam eats from the tree, the forbidden fruit. So they sensed 173 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:38,720 that, okay, God intended something good. We messed things up through our sin. And in the end, 174 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:47,200 we will go back to perfection, to Eden. God will unite all of creation to God's self, 175 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:55,040 peace and harmony when God comes to judge at the end of time. And that is also revisited in the 176 00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,800 book of Isaiah, where Isaiah the prophet, he's probably the most famous prophet from the old 177 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:09,120 Testament who says like on God's holy mountain, so in God's reign, there will be no more violence. 178 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:15,920 All these animals, the snake and the child and the lamb and the lion will all be together and 179 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,920 they will not harm each other. So they envisioned that at the end of time, there will be no more 180 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:29,600 violence. So God's original intent and God's final intent are both without violence. We are in this 181 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,600 in-between time of God's original intent and before we believe in Jesus comes a second time, 182 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,560 that's when God will judge the world and then that will be the end times. 183 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,800 Now, when do we start eating meat in the Bible? Well, it's also in the book of Genesis, chapter 184 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:55,520 nine. So there's a lot of sin, lots of things are happening and then God is angry and then God 185 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,520 wants to flood the earth. So this is a great flood. Noah makes a boat, 186 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:07,520 takes all the animals with him in the boat, the flood ends. And then God allows humans to eat 187 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,200 animals because of the hardness of their hearts. Okay, that's how we live in the Bible. God allows 188 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,000 humans to eat animals because of the hardness of their hearts. Now, there are two important things 189 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:25,680 to remember in that context. One is allows. The word allows doesn't mean you have to, right? 190 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:33,920 We can be allowed certain things, but we can avoid doing it if it is not the best idea. 191 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,800 And secondly, it's also only because of the hardness of our hearts. Okay, so the best analogy 192 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:49,440 I like to give is a two-year-old or say like a five-year-old and her mother. Okay, so mother 193 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:57,040 and daughter. It is 5.30 in the evening and the daughter, a five-year-old really wants to eat 194 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:04,400 ice cream. And the mom says, no, do not eat ice cream. And this goes on for a while. The daughter 195 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,080 is throwing a tantrum, she's crying and she's saying all sorts of things. And so eventually 196 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:16,000 the mother says, okay, go ahead, eat ice cream. All right, so the mother said to eat ice cream 197 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,800 or the mother says, you can eat ice cream. All right, I will allow you to eat ice cream. 198 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:26,240 She's not ordering the daughter. She's saying, I'm allowing you to eat ice cream because of 199 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,520 the hardness of your heart. Now, the daughter, the five-year-old, if she knows her mother well, 200 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,520 will understand that the mother is not telling her to eat, like it's not forcing her, 201 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,560 it's not commanding her, she's allowing her. And the daughter also knows that the mother has just 202 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:49,760 like given up, the mother is tired. And if she has some sense of her mother's tiredness or fatigue, 203 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,960 she would probably not eat the ice cream even though she got permission, right? Because she 204 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:02,240 loves her mother and she wants to be true to her original intent of not allowing the ice cream. 205 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:09,280 And so that's how I like to see like our faith life in general. And when we talk about these laws, 206 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:15,360 you know, that are in the Bible or there are laws in Christianity as well, all of these rules, 207 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:23,120 it's not because like God wants us to be, you know, like in a straight jacket without freedom 208 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:29,760 or that God likes troubling us. No, it's a sense of relationship. Like we show that we are in 209 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:36,080 relationship with God by acting in a certain way. And so all of these laws that what God allows and 210 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:44,000 God doesn't allow is about relationship with God. And so I think a way to read the Bible is always 211 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:52,880 to say, what will enhance my relationship with God? And what takes me away from God? And so one of the 212 00:25:52,880 --> 00:26:01,680 ways we relate to God is through what God has created, right? So like me and you and all other 213 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,640 people listening, and then we have non-human animals and then we have trees and we have the 214 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:13,280 earth. Well, all of it belongs to God because God created all of this. And so how we relate to 215 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:21,040 our fellow creatures kind of shows how we relate to God. You know, I mean, God is infinite, but God 216 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,960 has allowed us to interact with fellow creatures as a way of relating with God. And so 217 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,640 treating animals is different from treating plants is different from treating rocks. 218 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:41,360 And we have to show love and kindness to each of these creatures in the level that they're able to 219 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:47,040 receive. And at a better minimum, we shouldn't harm them as far as possible. I mean, for me, 220 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,200 that is the way to read the Bible. It's not about all the laws. The laws are important, 221 00:26:52,000 --> 00:27:00,800 but it is important to know why they are there. And I think sometimes that is lost in the way 222 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:07,280 we read the Bible. So to get to the other one that they talk about briefly, and I may have talked 223 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:13,760 about this when we talked over email, I think St. Paul talks about people eating meat and those who 224 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:23,120 don't eat meat are weak. The cause and effect there is a bit of a misleading way that they have 225 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:31,040 portrayed in the movie. So what St. Paul is saying is that, okay, so connected with the temple, 226 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:38,080 because it was a Roman Empire, not everything was Jewish. There were a lot of people who were not 227 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:44,640 Jewish. They were either called pagans or gentiles. And so the Jewish people, so not just Jerusalem, 228 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,680 so now St. Paul is talking to different parts of, this is in the letter to the Romans, so they are 229 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,560 in Rome. There are different parts of Greece, modern day Turkey, and all of that. So people 230 00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:01,920 are spread out. Jews are living among other people, and Jews are in the minority in most places, 231 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:08,720 except maybe in Jerusalem itself. And so a lot of times they had trouble keeping the law, 232 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:15,520 because they were such a small minority. But an important part of keeping the law for them 233 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:23,280 was to not eat meat that was sacrificed to the idols. Okay, so now imagine you're living in, 234 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:32,400 I'm living in Boston, and this is a place where everything is religious. We cannot think of like 235 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:38,880 star market or Safeway, or just separate. Here everything is connected with God. So a butcher 236 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,400 down the street will have his God, and when he's working, he will offer the meat that he's 237 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:50,560 slaughtering to his God. The Romans had lots of different gods. And so a Jewish person who 238 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:57,360 would go to that butcher now is buying meat that has been sacrificed to the idol. Okay, 239 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,520 and so that is a problem, because according to Jewish law, you shouldn't eat meat that has been 240 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:09,120 sacrificed to an idol, because you don't want to honor other gods. Jews and Christians now 241 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:15,040 also believe that there's only one God. And so it would be really hard sometimes to find 242 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:22,400 things not offered to idols, meat especially. And so St. Paul is trying to find this balance here of 243 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:30,800 allowing people to be more like liberal, if you may, and saying that what is important is our faith 244 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:39,360 in Jesus. Sometimes these other smaller things might not matter as much. So if you're going to 245 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:45,360 be strong in our faith in Jesus, St. Paul says, we don't have to worry about these smaller things 246 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:54,960 about meat to the idols and so on. But some of us might not be strong in our faith. And so we need 247 00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:03,840 to take more precautions as weak people to not eat meat sacrificed to idols, just in case we don't 248 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,880 think of these supernatural things. But I mean, as a person of faith, I do believe that there are 249 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:16,080 evil, there's evil out there. And I should avoid bringing evil into myself. If I think that I'm 250 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:25,120 strong, maybe my body or my spirit can fight the evil. And so I'm fine. But if I'm weak, I'm fine. 251 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:35,280 But if I think that I'm weak, out of humility, I will think that I am weak. And so I will try my best 252 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:42,720 to avoid possibility of getting evil into myself, in this case meat from idols. So he says, 253 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:50,080 one person believes that one may eat anything. So strong people can eat anything, while the weak 254 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:57,280 person eats only vegetables. Well, he's a weak person. And that is why he's eating vegetables. 255 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:03,680 It's not that he has become weak because he's eating vegetables. Okay, so this is very important 256 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:12,640 here. So if you know that you are weak spiritually, you should avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols. 257 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:18,240 Okay, just eat vegetables, be safe. And that's what he's saying. So he's saying, 258 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,840 I think that idea of like strong and weak, I think it's helpful to be humble and say, 259 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,760 no matter how strong you are, I hope you be as a person of faith, I will be humble to say, 260 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:38,640 my faith is not perfect. There are weaknesses to my faith. And I will do my best to avoid things 261 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:49,120 that might cause me to stumble, to sin. Other things that might cause me to sin, I try to avoid 262 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:55,760 as much as I can and not tempt myself. There's a famous, I think, Greek story about those people 263 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:02,240 on the boat, the sirens. There are these sailors who are going to fight some war, but there are 264 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,280 these really beautiful mermaids or something in the water. And I will try to avoid that. 265 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,640 So they're going to fight some war, but they're not going to die. So they're going to die. 266 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,640 So they're going to die. And so there are different ways of avoiding like one of them ties himself 267 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:21,200 to the mast, one of them like covers his ears or something. So you don't want to tempt fate, 268 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:28,320 if you may. And that's what Saint Paul is saying. So it's not that vegetables make you weak. It is 269 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,680 that if you think that you are weak in your faith, you should avoid meat because it's coming from 270 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,480 a pagan source that has been offered to the idols. That's what he's getting at. 271 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:45,840 Yeah. So it is unfortunate because at least with a lot of men, meat is associated with strength 272 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,640 and manliness. And then they use this passage and say, look, even Saint Paul knew it. And that's 273 00:32:50,640 --> 00:33:00,000 not how it is written. So beautifully said. I wish they hired you to advise them making this 274 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:09,280 documentary. I really do. Because the editing and the way they filmed the thing was just 275 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:18,560 beautiful from a visual perspective. It was stunning. But the content itself, I felt like 276 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:30,080 it lacked substance really. And I'm not sure how much, because that's the thing. I heard lots of 277 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:40,320 praises coming from people praising this documentary, but it always came from atheists or pagans or 278 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:46,560 who are vegans who I know who are not really religious or belong to different religious 279 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:52,960 traditions. And I kept thinking, where are the Christians? Is any Christian watching this movie? 280 00:33:52,960 --> 00:34:04,080 I felt like this missed the target audience and that a Christian audience would be more receptive 281 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:12,880 to the case you've just made, clearly made that relates to their faith, relates to important 282 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:23,040 episodes of the Bible, fundamental beliefs, and not to episodes and conspiracies and certain 283 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:33,760 details and making those details into a whole situation. Like honestly, watching the documentary 284 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:41,840 felt like watching that movie, The Da Vinci Code. I think it's based on a book. That's what it felt 285 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:51,360 like. And yeah, I just wonder, you know, how much of the content is being made by the Christian 286 00:34:51,360 --> 00:35:03,920 community? And I wonder, you know, how much does that documentary appeal to the target audience 287 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:12,720 and will make an impact, a positive impact among Christian communities? Yeah, you know, as I said, 288 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:19,200 like the idea that we were wrong for 2000 years really goes against our teaching. And also, I 289 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:24,480 think that people will feel attacked. And so, I think a more positive way of using the passages 290 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:31,280 that I talked about Genesis chapter one, chapter nine, the book of Isaiah, you know, and then in 291 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:37,120 Jesus's time, you know, there are certain places that could be helpful to think about. Like for 292 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:45,120 example, I like to think there's a parable in the Bible where Jesus tells a story. There's a king 293 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,840 who says, okay, let's call him high servant and low servant. There are different levels of servant. 294 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:55,760 So, the high servant who directly reports to the king has some debts and he's not able to pay them. 295 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:02,720 So, he goes to the king and asks the king for forgiveness. And then the king says, you know, 296 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:09,360 okay, I will forgive you, you know, out of the mercy and so on. So, the high, the top servant 297 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:17,600 is happy that he's been forgiven. But when the top servant goes home, he realizes that a low servant 298 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:26,320 is indebted to him. Okay. So, the top servant starts abusing the lower servant until he pays 299 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,720 him back. And the lower servant says, please forgive me. I will pay you as soon as I can. 300 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:36,560 Have mercy on me. But the top servant says, no, I will not forgive you. And he throws the lower 301 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:41,840 servant into jail. The king hears about this and so he summons the top servant and says, 302 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,320 why did you do this? When I showed you mercy, why couldn't you show me mercy? 303 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,920 Why couldn't you show your lower servant mercy? And so, he throws, the king throws the top 304 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:59,920 servant into jail. That's the relationship we have in creation. So, God is the king. 305 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:05,680 We humans are the top servants. As a Catholic, I have no problem saying that humans are more 306 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:11,840 important than animals. Okay. That's just the way it is. And the lower servant are the animals. 307 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:20,000 Now, notice we are in debt to God in the sense that God created us. And secondly, we have sinned 308 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:26,080 and we're offending God. God can rightly punish us for our offenses. But we ask God to show us 309 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:34,240 mercy. God is merciful and God shows us mercy. So, yeah, we are happy. Then we turn around and now 310 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:41,360 we have these lower servants, dogs, cats, pigs, and cows. Now, they have not borrowed anything 311 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:47,440 from us, but for the sake of the argument, let's imagine that, you know, they belong to us. They 312 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:55,440 owe us something just because they are there. But even then, we have to show them mercy. 313 00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:01,600 I mean, that's what the story is about. Because if we do not show them mercy, those who are lower to 314 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:08,720 us, that God, who is higher than us, will not show us mercy as well. Because Jesus says explicitly 315 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:17,040 elsewhere, a blessed of the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. All humans will be in need 316 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:23,600 of mercy when the time of judgment comes, because none of us is perfect and we have all sinned. 317 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:31,840 And so, because we want to be shown mercy by God, we have to be merciful, because that's what Jesus 318 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:40,080 said, blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. And so, anybody or anything 319 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,800 that can be shown mercy, that can receive mercy, should be shown mercy. And that's why I say 320 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,880 mercy and compassion and kindness is shown to each creature based on its ability to receive. 321 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,040 As far as we know, like sometimes people say, oh, you know, trees are alive. What if they have 322 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:05,680 brains that we don't know about? Well, we may not know about it. I don't know. As far as we know 323 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:13,760 right now, like it's clear that a dog or a cow can receive mercy, because it can be hurt in some way, 324 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,880 we immediately know if I kick a dog, it starts yelping and I know that I have been unkind to 325 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,240 the dog with immediate feedback, right? We know from scientific studies that there's a central 326 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:30,240 nervous system that when a dog is in distress, it lights up certain parts of its brain. So, 327 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:37,680 it is receiving the unkindness, but it also can receive kindness. Anybody who has been near a dog 328 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:43,680 knows the difference between petting a dog and kicking a dog. And so, it's a very important 329 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:50,800 kicking a dog and how the dog responds. So, if a dog can receive mercy, we should show mercy. 330 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,960 A very simple way of showing mercy is to not kill them, right? With a tree on the other hand, 331 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,720 like, well, human substance is important, so I'm not going to starve to death. I have to eat 332 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:10,240 something. And so, if I eat something from a tree or if I cut grass and, you know, eat grain, 333 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:15,360 yeah, maybe there is some distress in the tree, if you may, in the plant, but it's not the same 334 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:24,480 level as a dog. You know, if I walk over grass, I don't apologize to the grass, right? We have this 335 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:31,840 ingrained within us that if I stamp on my cat's tail, I will say sorry to the cat. Most of us 336 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:38,160 will do that because the cat will be angry and then we will feel bad for hurting the cat. We don't 337 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:45,760 have that same sense of feeling when we walk across the grass or a tree branch breaks, right? So, 338 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:52,800 from both an emotional response and from a scientific standpoint, a tree or a grass doesn't 339 00:40:52,800 --> 00:41:00,480 have the same level or same capacity to receive mercy, right? It doesn't mean I should do whatever 340 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:06,080 I want with it. Like, I shouldn't just go around cutting trees because that would be bad for the 341 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,720 environment and that would be bad for other animals and that would just be a misuse of what 342 00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:18,480 God has given us, right? We use things that will enhance our life but also realize that this is 343 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:24,720 part of God's creation. But showing mercy to a tree or a rock is quite different from showing 344 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:31,920 mercy to a dog or a cow. I completely agree with that. There are many environmentalists talking 345 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:42,080 about such species of vegetation and how it's important to keep them, protect them. And then 346 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:51,040 you think, but why are they so important? Is it just because they are exceptional, unique? 347 00:41:51,040 --> 00:42:00,080 In what way are they helping, supporting, sustaining sentient beings, which is, in my book, 348 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:08,080 the most important factor in determining what subspecies of bush should be protected. 349 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:19,360 Yeah, in the Bible, for instance, they said, God does tell us to eat seeds, but elsewhere, 350 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:26,000 I forget off the top of my head, I think in the book of Exodus, God talks about giving the Sabbath 351 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:33,040 rest to animals. The Sabbath, the seventh day is an important aspect of Jewish tradition. 352 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:39,200 And God talks about giving rest to the animals. Now, you could be cynical and say, well, that's 353 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:44,400 just good practice because if the animals rest, it will be able to work better, you know, for 354 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:52,960 utility arguments. But the fact that God says that the animals deserve rest, shows that the animals 355 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:59,440 can receive rest. God doesn't say that a tree should receive rest in the same way. 356 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,360 And so I think there is a sense that sometimes we just have this idea, it's all or nothing. 357 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:10,800 Oh, you know, plants also have feelings, so we should just do whatever we want. Oh, no, 358 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:17,680 there's a gradient here, right? I mean, cows and pigs or dogs receive, as far as we know, 359 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:24,240 and can experience, receive love and mercy differently from insects and then from plants 360 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:30,800 or grass and then rocks, right? There's a gradient. And the highest kindness would be 361 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,640 to reduce the amount of harm that we cause to creatures that can experience harm. So we 362 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,160 should go with plants to eat. 363 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:50,400 For the remaining time, I had, I noted two questions I heard. One from a state of 364 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:59,920 that I think an evangelist makes. He says, animals do not have spiritual rights. And, 365 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:08,640 you know, that felt like a stunning thing to say. And then the second one is a question 366 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:15,680 they keep repeating, which is, is there a Christian or spiritual way, I think, of killing 367 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:24,320 an animal or, yeah, killing an animal. And I wanted to just, you know, share those with 368 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,200 you and have you comment on them. 369 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:34,160 Yeah, the idea that animals don't have a spiritual life. Yeah, that is a, that is a, 370 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,840 an important question. You know, do, do dogs go to heaven? You know, and Pope Francis 371 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,160 created a bit of stir once by saying that the dogs will be in heaven. And so then we have to ask, 372 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:49,760 what does it mean? And so on. It's a great question. So there are two ways of looking 373 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:56,560 at this. One is that in the Catholic tradition, St. Thomas Aquinas, the most famous philosopher 374 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:05,440 of our tradition, would say that if we harm animals, like, you know, by being a monster, 375 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:11,520 we are harming ourselves. You know, it stains the soul. Okay. Now this may seem a little 376 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,760 self-serving here that, oh, I should be kind to animals just because I want to keep my 377 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:21,440 soul safe. It's a good, it's a good starting point. Like, I don't want to harm animals 378 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:27,280 because my soul gets harmed. So, hey, I'll just keep away. So good starting point. So 379 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,480 that would be a pretty standard way of seeing it. And then the third one is, is there a 380 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:38,080 standard way of seeing it? So that would be a pretty standard way of seeing it. Now, 381 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:44,400 whether animals go to heaven or not, you know, it's not, it's never said that animals don't 382 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,840 go to heaven. So then we have to ask, what is heaven? And, you know, in our tradition, 383 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:59,760 we are all about relationships. So God is Trinity, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 384 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:07,200 So the relationship within God is important. Our faith is always about relationship with 385 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:13,680 God. In the Bible, it's about covenant, which is again, relationship. Love your neighbor 386 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:21,200 is about relationships. Everything is about relationships. And so the idea is that, for 387 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:27,760 me, is what kind of relationships we have here on earth, and do these relationships 388 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:33,520 in heaven. You know, like, we can start with a human level and say, you know, I love my 389 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:39,920 parents very much. I mean, I have my brothers, my friends. Yeah, I will be with heaven in 390 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:46,400 heaven with God. But it seems for me a little incomplete to say that, that even though my 391 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:52,880 mom will be in heaven, I will have no relationship with her. For me, it seems unsatisfying. Yes, 392 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:59,840 I'll be with God. But I don't want these relationships, this beautiful existence that 393 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:05,760 I have here on earth, to just not matter. You know, like the people I connect with, 394 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:11,040 the people who I truly care. So same thing you could think about with pets. A lot of 395 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:18,960 people grieve when their pets die, you know. Having pets in this world is part of what 396 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:25,360 made them human. The fact that they were able to love and receive love from another creature 397 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:31,360 was part of their humanity. And so when we are in heaven, the idea is that it is not a break 398 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,240 from this to the next. It's not like a test that once you go on the other side, nothing else from 399 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:43,440 the previous life matters. It is a continuity. The idea that we will be resurrected, body and soul, 400 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:49,600 is a sense of continuity. That this world is going to continue with the next and not going to be a 401 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:56,160 break. And so I believe that animals can be in heaven for the same reason, because of relationships. 402 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:04,560 Now a dog or a cat or a cow will suddenly not become like human in heaven. They will still be 403 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:11,920 a dog or a cat or a cow, but in a glorified sense. So whatever relationship I had with 404 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,040 animals here will continue in heaven and those animals will have to be present there for the 405 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,800 relationship to continue. Otherwise it will be kind of awkward, like, oh I have a relationship 406 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:26,800 with a cat, but there are no cats in heaven. So I wouldn't say like animals that go to heaven, 407 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,600 but we can think of it in terms of relationships and how would they continue in heaven. 408 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:40,560 So there is no part of our tradition that explicitly says animals don't go to heaven. 409 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:45,920 It's just silent on the topic. And so we can try and think about what does heaven mean 410 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:51,680 and what would a loving God want in the future. What is the second point? 411 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:58,480 So that's the recurring question of is there a spiritual way to kill animals? 412 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:08,720 Yes, I would say it really comes down to necessity, right? I've already said this, 413 00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:15,760 if a human being is starving for whatever reason, you are on a desert island and there's nothing 414 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:21,920 else to eat, or you're really hungry and the only food that is offered to you, you are homeless, 415 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:27,280 you are poor and you don't have your own capacity of purchasing food and somebody offers you meat 416 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:38,080 to eat, like you have no other option. So if you have no other option and your life is important, 417 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:45,200 it is at stake, then a Christian way of killing would be to recognize the necessity, 418 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,920 to recognize that this is an imperfect world that occasionally does need violence. 419 00:49:54,160 --> 00:50:00,240 And to truly honor the life of the animal in some way and almost kind of apologize for saying, 420 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:06,480 killing the animal to say, I'm sorry, we are in this situation. This is an imperfect situation, 421 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:11,600 but I believe that God would want me to be alive by consuming your flesh 422 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:20,000 and kind of ask for forgiveness. And I'm not making a sentimental call here, but a real sense that 423 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:30,080 this is a necessity in an imperfect world and to recognize that. Not the idea the way we have it 424 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:36,640 today where we don't even know the animals we've killed. The animals are just like leading horrible 425 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:45,120 lives. We don't have to eat them. I mean, it's so removed from any sense of understanding that they 426 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:51,280 are fellow creatures of God's creation. And so I think, yeah, I think there's a Christian way of 427 00:50:51,280 --> 00:51:01,120 killing, which would be strongly based on necessity and almost asking for forgiveness and saying that 428 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:08,320 this is an imperfect world and here we are. And to kind of use that as a way of recognizing the 429 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,280 value and the dignity of the animal that you are going to slaughter. 430 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:18,000 Beautiful. We have the answer in a few minutes only. We did not need an hour long documentary. 431 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:24,960 Thank you so much, Daniel, for having stopped by and answered my questions and gave your review 432 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,960 of Christ Piercy. Thank you so much. 433 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,960 You're very welcome. And thanks for your work. 434 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,240 Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the 435 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:43,200 vegans you know. Let's encourage more people to take action. Again, thank you so much for caring 436 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:49,360 and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.