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Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and if you are vegan, let me remind you of

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how amazing that is.

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What you have done is breaking free from 16,000 years of conditioning that makes us humans

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see other animals as mere objects of exploitation.

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And by doing so, your world has grown livelier, more exciting and kinder.

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Above all else, what I admire the most in my fellow vegans is that very independent

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mindedness, that capacity to think and feel against the strong winds of normalized animal

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exploitation.

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And this is what today's episode is about.

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Staying faithful to that independence of mind, to avoid the trappings of mob mentality and

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tribalism, even when that push to conform and abandon critical thinking comes from within

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the vegan community.

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To discuss this topic, I have with me Andres.

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Andres is a long time vegan activist and a returning guest of the show.

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You might recognize him from episode 10 of the podcast titled Identifying as a Vegan

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Conservative.

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Link to that episode and more in the show notes.

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Thanks, Andres for doing

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the landing.

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but I'm gonna do what makes sense to me.

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And so growing up, I did hold more liberal values,

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but as time goes on and I learn more about history

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and culture changes and all that,

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it does seem like a lot of my views

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have landed with more conservative values.

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And what I was gonna say is that especially growing up

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in music and art and underground scenes and all that,

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it's almost expected that you would be liberal

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or leftist, but when I think about the values

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that I cherish, it seems to line up with more conservative

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and libertarian values.

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And then becoming vegan,

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I am now understanding that it doesn't require

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a certain political belief or political background

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to be vegan.

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And even though there are appeals to tradition

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with conservatism and approaching a vegan world

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is inherently progressive, right?

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We're progressing towards that vegan world.

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I still think that there are many links

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to the vegan principle and conservative values.

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So I imagine that we'll be touching on some of those today.

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Definitely, I feel the same way.

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I feel like when I was a kid,

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things that belonged on the left,

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those things I was very much engaged with.

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And then growing up, you develop critical thinking

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and you start thinking,

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why do I have this tribal mindset?

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Why do I have to accept the entire left bundle?

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Why can't I just choose ideas from the left,

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from the right, use my critical thinking skills

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and just look for the truth?

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So there's this French writer, Albert Camus,

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most people know him.

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And he once, he's quoted saying,

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I'm not on the left, I'm not on the right,

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I'm with the truth.

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And I followed the truth wherever it takes me.

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And I started feeling more and more that way.

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Maybe a concrete example of that would be,

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that intersects with veganism too, is the environment.

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There's a lot of nonsense coming from the left

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about the environment.

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Maybe a good example of that would be windmills.

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I'm against windmills, they kill so many birds.

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When you have them on the ocean floor,

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they create sound barriers that kill lots of whales

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and marine life.

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It's just a horrible idea.

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And aesthetically, it's just, it doesn't look good.

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And surprisingly, the one that criticizes windmills is now,

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Trump, you hear him talk about how it's bad

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for the environment and you think, wait, why is this,

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it's supposed to be the left talking about,

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critically about such things.

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Why is Trump talking about windmills?

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I think on the Joe Rogan experience.

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And saying what everyone knows, but doesn't say out loud.

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So you find nuggets of nonsensical positions here and there,

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and you start being more skeptical about your views

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and where you are on the political spectrum.

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And like you said, why do we have to choose a tribe?

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Yep, and you start to realize that it becomes

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so much more nuanced than what people believe

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or what people perpetuate out there

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that if you are a person who has voted

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for a particular candidate,

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you must have all these characteristics or traits about you

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and you must have all these beliefs

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as if we're not complex beings who can have nuanced takes

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on down the political spectrum talking with each topic.

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So yeah, conservatives can care about the environment

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and conservatives can want stewardship for the earth.

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And then similarly, there could be folks on the left

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who are a little bit more tight on social issues

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or folks on the left who might have a nuanced take

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on something like abortion.

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And I think we touched on this in the last podcast

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where we talked a bit about this topic,

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which of course is very controversial and contentious.

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So we don't have to go too far down it,

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but one thing that I have come to believe

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through years of thinking about politics and moral issues

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is that similar to how veganism,

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this is the theory of mine, but a firm belief

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that similar to how veganism is not tied

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to a political lane,

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I also believe that abortion should not be tied

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to a political lane or a side of the political spectrum.

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And I know that it seems kind of outlandish

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for somebody who is in the United States to believe so

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because especially with this last election,

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it was so divided where if you're voting Democrat,

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it must be that you are pro-abortion.

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If you're voting Republican,

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it must be that you're abortion.

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But I think that that's just the way

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that culturally it has come to.

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Is my connection unstable?

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Was I glitching out a second?

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So there are a few words that were lost,

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but I think we understand the overall.

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The point that I was making was that through time,

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the political parties, I believe,

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have chosen to latch onto this issue

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in order to create like a clear divide on this.

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And the left has made it like a women's rights issue

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and the right has made it a religious issue

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when my personal belief is that it's a moral issue

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and it shouldn't be tied to political parties.

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So that's just one little nugget I wanted to drop in there

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that this particular issue, similar to veganism,

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I think is more tied to morals than it is to politics.

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And just going back to what we were saying,

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it's so nuanced and it can be, and it should be,

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and we should be able to have these kinds of conversations

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without putting each other in boxes and saying that like,

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these must be all if you voted a particular way,

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or if you have a certain view economically

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on one side of the spectrum,

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it must be that all your other views

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are on that side of the spectrum.

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And it's simply not the case.

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Absolutely.

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And let me get, because I read the book recently,

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well, not recently, like a few months ago,

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called Beating Hearts,

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and it's about the intersection of abortion

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and animal rights.

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And that book really pushed me to be critical

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on my views about abortion.

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And I just want to read the introduction,

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of the book because it,

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I feel it really captures why

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this debate of abortion intersecting with animal rights

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is not that straightforward.

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So just give me a minute.

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Sure.

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Guess there are lots of romance book called Beating Hearts.

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I typed Beating Hearts abortion animal rights,

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and it came up immediately.

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Oh, okay.

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So this is how,

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so I guess the back of the book,

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this is what you can read.

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How can someone who condemns hunting,

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animal farming and animal experimentation

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also favor legal abortion,

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which is the deliberate destruction of a human fetus?

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The authors of Beating Hearts aim to reconcile

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this apparent conflict and examine the surprisingly similar

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strategic and tactical questions faced by activists

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in the pro-life and animal rights movement.

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And I do recommend this book,

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like highly, highly recommend the book.

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It's from a lawyer called Michael C. Dorff,

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and he's his wife who

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has, is now deceased.

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But it really goes into the details of why this is,

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you know, the default view of pro-choice versus pro-life

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is not that straightforward.

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And if you are a vegan, if you believe in animal rights,

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you should look at this debate with more nuances.

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So yeah, it did make me ask the question,

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why do I support abortion when

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I don't kill mosquitoes?

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Yeah, yeah, I think, you know,

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through thinking about this over time as well,

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I have, and I guess we are going down this conversation,

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I was gonna say maybe we could touch on it,

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but not dive in, but if you wanna dive in,

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I definitely have thought about this quite a bit.

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And I see through my advocacy, you know,

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having developed a firm anti-abortion stance,

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I should be clear on that,

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and through no affiliation to politics

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and through no religious beliefs.

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I have certain particular religious beliefs.

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I'm not necessarily an atheist,

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but my views on abortion and veganism for that matter,

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are not related to politics or religion.

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It's simply a moral issue.

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And I, you know, through my advocacy,

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my anti-abortion advocacy,

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I have sensed that there are parallels

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in the reasoning that people use for being pro-abortion

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and that people use for being non-vegan.

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And just for the sake of clarity,

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I do wanna announce that I'll be using anti-abortion

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and pro-abortion for clarity,

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rather than pro-life and pro-choice.

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I feel like those are euphemisms, truthfully,

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if we're saying pro-choice,

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we're saying pro the choice to abort.

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So we can just kind of shorten it to pro-abort

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or pro-abortion and then anti-abortion,

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which is where I land.

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And yeah, as I mentioned,

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there are plenty of parallels that I see

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between pro-abortion and non-vegan arguments.

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There's a sense of devaluing each individual

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where I believe that there's a life at conception

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and a unique individual at conception.

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And so people will justify it by saying,

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well, it's just a clump of cells.

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And that's similar to what we hear non-vegans say,

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well, it's just an animal.

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It's not a worthy being.

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You know, we can assign the value to this being.

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So that's like one parallel there.

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The convenience argument is very popular with non-vegans

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and it's very popular with pro-aborts

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where they're saying it's easier for me to exploit animals

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and it's easier for me to abort this pregnancy,

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get on with my life and just wash my hands and move on.

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Cultural conditioning is big.

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Society normalizes both animal exploitation and abortion,

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especially in art and underground and music scenes

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that I run around in, it's like, it's expected.

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I think because of the framing culturally that abortion

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and being pro-abortion is a woman's rights issue.

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It's a lot of like words that are used

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to have people believe a certain thing

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when the victim in this situation would be the individual

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who has his or her life removed from them,

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robbed from them.

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The opportunity that they have to live

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has been taken from them due to somebody else's decision.

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And that's where I'm against that.

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And then just a couple more here going down the list,

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the power dynamic.

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This one I would say is maybe the biggest overlap

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is that there's a more powerful individual

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who's exploiting a vulnerable individual

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in the case of animal exploitation

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and in the case of abortion.

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And if I'm against it on one end,

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I must be against it on the other end.

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And I should add that I arrived at the anti-abortion position

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after becoming vegan

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00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,320
and after understanding the vegan principle.

263
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,060
And yeah, this last one was euphemism,

264
00:16:00,060 --> 00:16:01,460
which we touched on earlier.

265
00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:05,040
Euphemisms like pro-choice, like women's rights,

266
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,980
and euphemisms like meat or humane slaughter

267
00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:12,240
or processing, harvesting, all these things

268
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,240
that are sanitizing the act of exploiting others.

269
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,120
So yeah, I've given this some thought.

270
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,180
I've even thought about making content,

271
00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:26,860
talking more about how similar these issues are

272
00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:28,560
and how I believe that they are two

273
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,920
of society's biggest moral blind spots.

274
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,300
But again, I also similarly want to detangle

275
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:38,260
the abortion issue from politics,

276
00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:41,140
even though it does align with conservatism,

277
00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:44,500
I don't believe that it should be such an issue

278
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:46,200
that's tied to politics.

279
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,620
Then you should definitely get the book

280
00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:51,980
because they even go into the details

281
00:16:51,980 --> 00:16:56,980
of analyzing the activism of pro, sorry, pro-life

282
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,820
and animal rights activists.

283
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:09,000
For instance, by showing the tactic,

284
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,360
by talking about the tactic of showing footage

285
00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:17,360
of a fetus getting killed or aborted,

286
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,740
and how animal rights activists do the same

287
00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:27,740
with animal abuse footage, which is very fascinating,

288
00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:31,640
the parallels of those two.

289
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,980
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of it is street advocacy,

290
00:17:34,980 --> 00:17:38,960
sidewalk counseling outside of an abortion facility,

291
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,220
and street activism with veganism.

292
00:17:42,220 --> 00:17:44,620
And for anybody who might be listening

293
00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:48,940
who is maybe firmly pro and still,

294
00:17:48,940 --> 00:17:52,960
or maybe firmly pro-abortion and still believing this

295
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,400
to be something that only people who want to control women

296
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,840
or exploit women or who dislike women,

297
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,440
it's a misogynist act, I just want to lay the foundation

298
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,280
with both activists, an animal rights activist

299
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,360
and an anti-abortion activist.

300
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,920
It's coming from a place of love and respect

301
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,860
and wanting what's best for everyone.

302
00:18:16,860 --> 00:18:19,460
It's not that we want the woman to suffer

303
00:18:19,460 --> 00:18:24,460
and the child to succeed, we want what's best for everyone.

304
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,740
It's similar with animal rights messaging.

305
00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:31,000
We don't want people to, families to suffer

306
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,300
because now the farmer can't provide for his family.

307
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:37,840
And it's like, we're not here wanting worse for people,

308
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,740
we just want justice, we want fairness,

309
00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:42,480
and we want to achieve a world

310
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,120
where others aren't being exploited

311
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,380
based on someone else's decision.

312
00:18:46,380 --> 00:18:50,760
We don't have that right to impede

313
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,520
on someone else's wellbeing.

314
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,520
And that goes back to conservatism and libertarian values,

315
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,520
individual freedoms to exist freely,

316
00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:08,420
to not be exploited, to not be enslaved.

317
00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:10,300
And with the abortion issue,

318
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:13,700
I know that many people will paint the pregnant mother

319
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:15,540
as the one who's being exploited

320
00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:19,140
or the one who's being forced into a decision,

321
00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:23,380
but it's a situation where there's another individual

322
00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:27,980
who's being affected if you go through with this operation.

323
00:19:27,980 --> 00:19:31,980
And we already disagree with affecting the fetus

324
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:34,880
by drinking, smoking, or doing drugs.

325
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,820
So it should just extend that we also want what's best

326
00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:43,820
for the individual to not unnecessarily rob his only chance

327
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,060
at being born or at existing.

328
00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:50,160
Yes, definitely.

329
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,440
And that's the shift that happened to me.

330
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,080
I think I had the wrong perception

331
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:02,080
and I had some prejudices on what it meant to be pro-life.

332
00:20:02,940 --> 00:20:07,360
And I felt like this was a misguided position

333
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:12,360
based on all patriarchal values.

334
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:15,620
And then I discovered through reading, beating hearts,

335
00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:18,060
that there is actually a very convincing case

336
00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:23,060
for being pro-life, which made me respect that position.

337
00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:28,000
I don't think I became pro-life.

338
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,840
I think I'm still pro-abortion, pro-choice,

339
00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:36,280
but within asterisks.

340
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,280
Now it's not as black and white as I used to be.

341
00:20:41,780 --> 00:20:46,560
For instance, here in Quebec, where I live in Canada,

342
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:52,560
there is no, I think so, I looked it up,

343
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,340
and I think there is no limit for abortion.

344
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,780
So you can have abortion at any time.

345
00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:04,780
And I find this to be just horrific morally.

346
00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:10,740
I think that if your child can be brought to life

347
00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:15,740
and sustain itself without the help of the mother,

348
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,880
why do you have to kill that child?

349
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,320
But it does happen.

350
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:30,700
So yeah.

351
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,460
Yeah, and that brings me to another parallel

352
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:38,460
that I can think of, which reflects a breakthrough

353
00:21:38,460 --> 00:21:41,700
that I've had with my ideas on veganism

354
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:44,240
and understanding veganism a little bit more,

355
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,240
which we can go into in a bit,

356
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,480
but I do wanna identify this other parallel

357
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,680
that I thought of now, which has come to me before.

358
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,680
But when we're talking about abortion happening

359
00:21:59,260 --> 00:22:01,360
at some point between conception and the nine months,

360
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,500
you do hear many people who might be a little bit

361
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,000
more moderate on the topic saying,

362
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,660
well, I think I should have a choice to abort the fetus,

363
00:22:10,660 --> 00:22:13,600
but not after a certain amount of time,

364
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,600
because at that point it becomes cruel.

365
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,780
At that point, it's a little bit worse than the other case.

366
00:22:20,780 --> 00:22:23,780
And it might be worse because the child might have

367
00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:27,220
a more developed sense of sentience

368
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:29,960
and a more developed sense of consciousness.

369
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,120
It might be worse because there is actually a viable way

370
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,360
for this child to be delivered

371
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:39,360
and kept alive outside of the womb.

372
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:42,400
So people will categorize that in their minds as saying,

373
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,200
this is better welfare for the individual

374
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,300
than this over here.

375
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:51,640
So I'm against this kind of late-term abortion,

376
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,080
but I'm pro earlier term abortion.

377
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,180
And that brings me to like welfareism

378
00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:01,380
with animal exploitation, where we're saying,

379
00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:04,420
like these certain practices I'm really against.

380
00:23:04,420 --> 00:23:06,520
I'm really against the factory farming and all that,

381
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,520
but small local farms or other forms of exploitation

382
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,960
are okay when my stance on both topics

383
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,700
are that at conception, there's a unique individual

384
00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:19,540
who has his or her own DNA,

385
00:23:19,540 --> 00:23:23,540
who will continue existing unless there's some interruption.

386
00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:28,040
And so interrupting that after the child has been conceived

387
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,980
is morally wrong and similar to with exploitation.

388
00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:36,980
Like the vegan objective is to rid the exploitation

389
00:23:37,860 --> 00:23:39,780
of animals by humans.

390
00:23:39,780 --> 00:23:44,220
So it doesn't matter the scale, the level of suffering,

391
00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:49,240
the abuse versus use, it's simply that there's an individual

392
00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:54,640
who's having his or her autonomy taken from them

393
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,780
and is being used for someone else's benefit.

394
00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:00,140
That's the line that's drawn.

395
00:24:00,140 --> 00:24:02,940
It's a stance against exploitation.

396
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:06,380
So that's just another thing that came to me

397
00:24:06,380 --> 00:24:09,880
that I'm thinking that like, it's more of a hard cut.

398
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,320
If you're into philosophy, it's like a deontological decision

399
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,600
or deontological decision-making

400
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,660
rather than a utilitarian thing about maximizing pleasure

401
00:24:21,660 --> 00:24:23,000
and reducing suffering.

402
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,040
It's more like principally this is wrong.

403
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,400
And so regardless of consequences,

404
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:29,880
this is where I draw the line.

405
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,720
Yes, on that, I think I have more of the Peter Singer

406
00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:40,680
position, which is the degree of sentience

407
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,280
and basically the degree of suffering

408
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,060
that that being would experience

409
00:24:47,060 --> 00:24:52,060
and having to balance that with the degree of suffering

410
00:24:52,060 --> 00:24:57,060
that the mother or ex-person would have to go through.

411
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,100
Yes, definitely.

412
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:05,100
I mean, I do have this more Peter Singer-esque.

413
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,340
Where there's like a range of suffering

414
00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:14,080
and you can make a calculation and balance it out.

415
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,580
Yeah, I understand that for some people it's more on that.

416
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:19,780
I think through my own reflection

417
00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:22,820
and thinking and reading, it's become more

418
00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:25,000
of like that principle-based.

419
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,400
But I understand your own.

420
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,040
Would you say that it also is reflected in that way

421
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,040
with veganism as far as like a reduction of suffering

422
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,640
as opposed to a clear stance against exploitation?

423
00:25:43,140 --> 00:25:46,020
Yes, now that gets tricky.

424
00:25:46,020 --> 00:25:50,280
I want an abolition.

425
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,920
I want, I think that there is nothing wrong

426
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,160
with being idealistic in your advocacy

427
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,660
and asking for the moon.

428
00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:03,760
But do I think, does the pragmatic in me think

429
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,760
that we will arrive at a point where there is no suffering

430
00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:11,480
in exploitation of animals?

431
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,680
I don't believe that.

432
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,680
I think we should definitely go for the moon,

433
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,820
but we will not reach that.

434
00:26:20,820 --> 00:26:23,420
And I think that with some audiences,

435
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:27,760
you have to be a welfarist.

436
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:33,140
They are not ready to hear the abolitionist message.

437
00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:34,800
They're just not there.

438
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,140
Maybe if we had that conversation in like 50 years,

439
00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:43,580
hopefully less, but realistically in a hundred years,

440
00:26:45,380 --> 00:26:47,960
my answer would have been different.

441
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,520
But I think for now, I see the world

442
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,520
and I think that the abolition of all animal exploitation

443
00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,840
is not something that most people in the world

444
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,940
would be receptive of because of cultural differences,

445
00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:08,240
because of religious beliefs, and the list goes on.

446
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,080
So have you tried, because we can talk a bit

447
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,240
about this breakthrough that I've had

448
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,120
in the last year or so,

449
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:22,120
and it's great that you had Ben Mazaya on recently,

450
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,360
because he is certainly an influence on me.

451
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,920
And there are a group of other activists online

452
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,060
who have helped me make a connection

453
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:36,760
to the vegan objective, the vegan principle,

454
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,640
and just the way that it should be represented

455
00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:46,440
in ways that like completely went against

456
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,920
what I was doing before,

457
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,780
and the things that I believed before.

458
00:27:49,780 --> 00:27:53,980
And so what they are talking about, of course,

459
00:27:53,980 --> 00:27:57,680
is the original definition developed by Leslie Cross.

460
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,900
And I know that you and Ben had a conversation about that,

461
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,560
and how the vegan objective, as I mentioned earlier,

462
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,900
is to rid the exploitation of animals by humans.

463
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:12,340
And I began understanding veganism more as,

464
00:28:12,340 --> 00:28:15,340
rather than like adopting a set of beliefs,

465
00:28:15,340 --> 00:28:19,140
or even adopting a set of practices,

466
00:28:19,140 --> 00:28:23,020
it became something where I'm believing it to be

467
00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:28,020
that we're unlearning biases that society has imposed on us.

468
00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:33,020
And we're recognizing the individual in other animals.

469
00:28:34,460 --> 00:28:36,560
And I think that that's a message

470
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,300
that simplifies the whole conversation,

471
00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:46,100
and makes it something that anyone can accept,

472
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:48,640
going back to anyone on the political spectrum,

473
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,720
religious or secular, adult or child.

474
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,780
I believe that if we're telling people

475
00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:58,780
that animals exist for their own purposes,

476
00:28:58,780 --> 00:29:00,620
rather than to serve humans,

477
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,820
conversations about veganism can go totally differently.

478
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:11,260
If we're talking about symptoms,

479
00:29:11,260 --> 00:29:14,160
ways that animals are being exploited,

480
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,700
we're talking about the state of the world,

481
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:19,680
and we're just for that,

482
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,080
people hear that and say,

483
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,140
oh, okay, you're giving me something to think about.

484
00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:29,140
And they might, but it doesn't inspire change

485
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:32,220
as if you ask somebody,

486
00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:35,660
why do you believe that animals exist to serve humans?

487
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:36,920
Or if you ask somebody,

488
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,320
do you believe that animals have interests in living freely?

489
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,240
Like rather than talking about the suffering,

490
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,400
rather than talking about the ways that they are being used,

491
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,880
it's talking that they're being used,

492
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,280
that they're being exploited and viewed

493
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,020
as a resource by humans.

494
00:29:58,020 --> 00:30:01,320
And that has kind of shaped my advocacy over the last,

495
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,020
I'm gonna say like six months

496
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:07,020
since I've seen these Leslie Cross promoting activists

497
00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:08,980
start coming out online.

498
00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:10,420
And Ryan, I'll just ask you,

499
00:30:10,420 --> 00:30:12,420
have you seen these people,

500
00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:15,760
that they're going after people in comment sections,

501
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,900
and they're going after some of the big time activists,

502
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,160
and it's a small network, but they're pretty loud.

503
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,400
Have you come across them?

504
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,500
Absolutely not.

505
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,180
People need to understand I'm not on social media.

506
00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:29,940
I'm not a social media person.

507
00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:32,520
I actually actively avoid them.

508
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,380
If it was not for this podcast,

509
00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:37,940
I would not be on Instagram, I would not be on X.

510
00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:41,480
I would be like off the radar.

511
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,780
Yeah, yeah, well, I can just give you a quick summary.

512
00:30:44,780 --> 00:30:48,860
They are some activists who are promoting

513
00:30:48,860 --> 00:30:51,260
the original definition of veganism,

514
00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:52,800
which has been mentioned,

515
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,200
and I imagine has been mentioned on other times

516
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,040
in this podcast, veganism is the doctrine

517
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,240
that humans should live without exploiting animals.

518
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,640
Some people have tuned it up to say veganism

519
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,920
is the principle that humans should live

520
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,420
without exploiting animals.

521
00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:12,080
And I think that that summarizes it very efficiently,

522
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,760
very easily, and you won't have conversations

523
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,500
about various things, about lifestyle,

524
00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:25,500
about diet, about like a personal choice.

525
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,160
If you're framing it as a principle

526
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,640
that is a moral obligation,

527
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,840
a principle that is rooted in justice,

528
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,320
that will skip past, it's kind of like a fast pass

529
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,720
on an amusement ride or something.

530
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,240
It's like, it skips past all these other points

531
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,020
that people are going to be making about welfarism,

532
00:31:47,020 --> 00:31:50,360
about reducing suffering, about crop deaths,

533
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,000
about diet, personal response, personal choice.

534
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,460
All these things kind of get flattened out

535
00:31:57,460 --> 00:31:59,560
when you introduce it in that way.

536
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,200
And I think that that's a very simple thing

537
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,480
to communicate to people.

538
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,480
And you may have heard people say that if every vegan,

539
00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:12,780
everybody who has a plant-based diet

540
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:14,980
became a vegan activist,

541
00:32:14,980 --> 00:32:17,860
we would achieve a vegan world quicker.

542
00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:22,860
I think if every vegan activist began reframing

543
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,860
their activism as focusing on exploitation

544
00:32:27,860 --> 00:32:32,160
and why animals as individuals deserve respect

545
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,300
and deserve to live freely,

546
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,740
if we reframed our conversation

547
00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:40,200
around the exploitation of animals

548
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,220
rather than the suffering of animals,

549
00:32:42,220 --> 00:32:46,440
my theory is that we would have a vegan world much quicker.

550
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,280
It would cut through the fluff

551
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,080
and all the distortion that's out there.

552
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,320
And there are several activists that maybe I can point you to

553
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:56,820
and have on the channel

554
00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:57,920
because I think that they're spreading

555
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,260
a lot of great information that worked on me.

556
00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:03,940
As soon as I started reading what they were writing,

557
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:07,160
I said, I've been representing this all wrong

558
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,400
the whole way, the whole time.

559
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,640
You know, I've been misunderstanding this the whole time.

560
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,180
And I reframed my advocacy.

561
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:16,340
And now when I do cubes of truth

562
00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:19,880
or I'm just talking with anyone about the vegan principle,

563
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,120
again, I frame it as a principle

564
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,020
and it can really cut through a lot of the fluff.

565
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,060
Interesting.

566
00:33:28,060 --> 00:33:29,760
You know, my conversation with Ben

567
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,820
was one of my most thought provoking conversation

568
00:33:33,820 --> 00:33:35,020
on this show.

569
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,260
And I'm still digesting everything that was said,

570
00:33:41,260 --> 00:33:43,780
but something I brought up to him was

571
00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:48,780
you don't have the legitimacy to make this argument

572
00:33:49,780 --> 00:33:51,020
to certain crowds of people.

573
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,360
And maybe a good example of that would be religious people.

574
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,300
You know, you're not a rabbi, you're not an imam,

575
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:01,700
you're not a priest.

576
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:05,060
And you're talking about moral principles

577
00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:09,080
to people who don't see you as a figure,

578
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,280
a leader in their community

579
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,280
or that is able to talk about those things.

580
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,020
And then we talked about how there was a lack of advocacy

581
00:34:27,020 --> 00:34:31,860
directed to religious communities and religious leaders.

582
00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:34,000
But the problem remained, you know,

583
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,400
you can't go to a Muslim majority country

584
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,400
and be the westerner or the guy with Western ideas

585
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:49,740
who talk about animals being individuals.

586
00:34:49,740 --> 00:34:53,020
You need to be one of them to make the case for,

587
00:34:53,020 --> 00:34:56,780
or talk about people like El-Mahri,

588
00:34:56,780 --> 00:35:00,260
who I had an episode on,

589
00:35:00,260 --> 00:35:04,200
on this Arab Syrian vegan dinker

590
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,260
who lived hundreds of years ago

591
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:10,460
and who wrote about animals having feelings

592
00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:13,940
and sentience and all of that.

593
00:35:13,940 --> 00:35:16,640
So it's touchy like that.

594
00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:20,680
I think there is, which is beautiful,

595
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,480
there is in the West this culture of free speech

596
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,420
and we're much less tribal than in the rest of the world,

597
00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:31,660
where tribalism is alive and well,

598
00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:34,700
and you need to be part of the crowd

599
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:38,660
and you need to conform and there is no such thing

600
00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:41,100
as a culture of free speech.

601
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:44,400
Yeah, yeah, I think that you're right.

602
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,240
If I was going into a Muslim majority country,

603
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:48,980
the customs are totally different

604
00:35:48,980 --> 00:35:53,980
and the habits and traditions are different.

605
00:35:54,980 --> 00:35:57,380
So it would be more challenging,

606
00:35:57,380 --> 00:36:02,380
but I think anything less than rooting this conversation

607
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:05,080
as a conversation about justice

608
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,360
is selling the animals short,

609
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,560
selling the victims short here.

610
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,260
And I think that I've learned

611
00:36:13,260 --> 00:36:16,260
that a lot of it comes from avoidance.

612
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:17,600
Vegans want to avoid,

613
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,000
so they think that by appealing to the customs

614
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,200
and the beliefs that the non-vegan has

615
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,840
will bring them over into the idea a little bit better.

616
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:31,780
I agree with that and I don't.

617
00:36:31,780 --> 00:36:35,820
I think that the way that we communicate it can be nuanced,

618
00:36:35,820 --> 00:36:40,120
but the bottom line should be the root of the issue.

619
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,080
And the root of the issue is that humans

620
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,920
have been conditioned to believe

621
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,920
that exploiting animals is acceptable.

622
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,940
And that's the genesis of all the side effects.

623
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:56,260
That's the genesis of all the symptoms

624
00:36:56,260 --> 00:36:59,040
of animal exploitation is that belief

625
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,280
that animals exist to serve humans.

626
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,040
So however you wanna get that message across

627
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,780
is where the nuance can lie,

628
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:08,940
but the message needs to be that,

629
00:37:08,940 --> 00:37:12,260
that animals are individuals

630
00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:17,260
and it doesn't take any moral authority

631
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,100
or any science to understand that.

632
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:24,660
I think if we spend time with animals,

633
00:37:24,660 --> 00:37:28,060
we can see that there are personalities in them.

634
00:37:28,060 --> 00:37:31,100
And anyone with a personality is a person,

635
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:33,800
and I think that that's just a really simple message

636
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,100
that most people can get.

637
00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:37,340
Of course, there are people who are set in their ways

638
00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:39,380
and there are people who are not going to

639
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:42,940
and trenched in whatever their customs are.

640
00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:46,620
But I don't think that now distorting the vegan message

641
00:37:46,620 --> 00:37:49,520
is going to get them on any quicker.

642
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,660
I think we can refocus a target

643
00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:55,500
and go to someone else who might be more willing

644
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:59,460
to hear this justice rooted message

645
00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:02,200
rather than trying to distort it in a way

646
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,000
that will have them accept it easier.

647
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,400
And I think that there's just too much distortion

648
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,140
in vegan activism right now,

649
00:38:11,140 --> 00:38:14,680
painting it as something where it's like a journey

650
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,720
or something that you come to

651
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,320
rather than something that you unlearn

652
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,620
and you apply a principle in your life.

653
00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:29,720
Now, I will say that it wasn't that way for me.

654
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:32,000
I adopted the plant-based diet,

655
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,940
and then after having adopted it,

656
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:36,400
I came to the vegan principle.

657
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,200
So, and I think Ben touched on this as well.

658
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,380
It's hard to determine what's more effective

659
00:38:44,380 --> 00:38:47,720
talking about diet and getting people to adopt practices

660
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,740
and later come to the principle.

661
00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:52,720
But I think that that's, again, that's distorting the message

662
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,720
and that it's not practical than if we're just clear

663
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,720
about what the objective is, about what the definition is,

664
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:04,260
and about it being a moral obligation rooted in justice

665
00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:07,240
and about unlearning bias.

666
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:12,100
But I can see how people are a little hesitant to adopt this.

667
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:14,600
You know, some vegan activists might say,

668
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,780
well, we need to have a variety of tactics.

669
00:39:18,780 --> 00:39:20,240
I think that plant-based influencers

670
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:24,420
will exist, health and diet influencers will still exist,

671
00:39:24,420 --> 00:39:26,220
and they can handle that.

672
00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:29,080
Environmental people can handle those kinds of messaging,

673
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,920
but I don't think they should be using the word vegan,

674
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,500
which was developed to distinguish itself

675
00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,860
from welfarism and from vegetarianism

676
00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:42,140
as more of a principle that goes across the board

677
00:39:42,140 --> 00:39:43,940
with any form of animal exploitation,

678
00:39:43,940 --> 00:39:46,140
any form of animal use.

679
00:39:46,140 --> 00:39:47,640
Hearing it framed that way, that it's,

680
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,040
oh, we're against using animals for any purpose?

681
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,480
Oh, okay, that's way simpler.

682
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,620
We're just against using animals as a means to our ends.

683
00:39:57,620 --> 00:39:59,740
Okay, well, now that I understand it that way,

684
00:39:59,740 --> 00:40:03,820
I can advocate easier and people can understand it easier,

685
00:40:03,820 --> 00:40:06,160
even if they don't adopt the principle,

686
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,460
they're understanding it.

687
00:40:07,460 --> 00:40:12,060
And these objections and excuses go by the wayside

688
00:40:12,060 --> 00:40:18,060
if they're understanding it as a stance against exploitation.

689
00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:23,540
Yes, your optimism is contagious.

690
00:40:23,540 --> 00:40:26,940
Because, yes, I am thinking there are kind people everywhere.

691
00:40:26,940 --> 00:40:31,780
There are empathic people everywhere,

692
00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:37,280
and they deserve to hear that argument being made,

693
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,020
whatever the religion or culture is.

694
00:40:42,020 --> 00:40:47,460
Whatever the state of freedom of speech in their country.

695
00:40:47,460 --> 00:40:51,660
And they might be receptive to that.

696
00:40:51,660 --> 00:40:56,540
And we should, I'm thinking about success stories

697
00:40:56,540 --> 00:41:08,820
of spreading ideas and things like global religions.

698
00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:11,520
I don't think they had the same hesitancy,

699
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,980
you know, those missionaries, those Christian missionaries

700
00:41:13,980 --> 00:41:18,760
going into alien cultures and spreading the good word.

701
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,260
I think they were convinced by what they were preaching,

702
00:41:24,260 --> 00:41:29,060
and they were driven, and that's how they obtained result.

703
00:41:29,060 --> 00:41:33,040
They believed in the simplicity of the message.

704
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,340
Not to say that that message is simple,

705
00:41:35,340 --> 00:41:37,080
but they probably had it in their heads,

706
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,580
that it's a very simple thing to understand,

707
00:41:39,580 --> 00:41:42,640
and that it's rooted in truth for them.

708
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:48,560
And so with that conviction, they go out and they spread it.

709
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:54,900
I think that, yes, simplifying that message is really the key,

710
00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:58,460
and vegan education is really a key.

711
00:41:58,460 --> 00:42:00,600
I can point you to a few of these activists

712
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:08,380
who are very firm against sending a welfare message.

713
00:42:08,380 --> 00:42:10,640
So what is a welfare message?

714
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,180
Well, a welfare message is one that says,

715
00:42:13,180 --> 00:42:18,520
we are against animal abuse, because abuse and torture

716
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,360
and high levels of suffering are wrong.

717
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,720
But animal use, if there is no suffering or torture or abuse,

718
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,560
if we're just using them, then that's acceptable.

719
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,360
So using words like suffering and using words like abuse

720
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,340
actually sends the opposite message of what veganism

721
00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:41,540
seeks to achieve.

722
00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:44,280
And I think because there's all this distortion,

723
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,140
even some vegans will believe that it's too optimistic

724
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:51,540
to be sending such a simple message.

725
00:42:51,540 --> 00:42:56,020
But I think that that paradigm shift among vegan activists

726
00:42:56,020 --> 00:43:01,560
needs to happen so that we're unified against all

727
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,860
the opposition that we encounter,

728
00:43:03,860 --> 00:43:08,960
and that we're unified against all the different avenues

729
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,360
that people are attacking a plant-based diet from

730
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,640
and all these sorts of things and calling it

731
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,300
some globalist agenda.

732
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:20,280
Going back to politics a little bit,

733
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,580
this is rooted in injustice.

734
00:43:23,580 --> 00:43:28,360
And I think that that can appeal to many conservatives who

735
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:34,260
are based on principle, who do have values like personal

736
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:38,120
responsibility and ethical consistency and all that.

737
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,800
So just to bring it back to the conservatives there,

738
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,960
it's something that, regardless of your background,

739
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,360
if we're framing it in that way against a suffering-focused

740
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,920
message and more of the exploitation-focused message,

741
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,760
that's my optimism.

742
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,000
And many of the writings of these,

743
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,840
I call them crossians.

744
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,760
They're like Leslie Cross advocates.

745
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,880
They're crossians.

746
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,800
But they've gotten themselves in a lot of trouble.

747
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,360
I'll give you just a little summary here,

748
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,720
since I know you're not so much on social media.

749
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,680
But they are going on podcasts, a lot of infighting.

750
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,580
They're calling out activists.

751
00:44:19,580 --> 00:44:22,080
And they're saying that you're making this seem way too much

752
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:23,560
of a diet thing.

753
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:24,920
You're making this seem way too much

754
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,400
as a reduction of suffering, where

755
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,280
you're making a calculation as opposed to a hard cut,

756
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,260
a line in the sand that says, we need

757
00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:40,240
to unlearn what society has conditioned us to believe.

758
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,080
And we need to focus on the root of the issue

759
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,560
rather than factory farms and all these symptoms

760
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,720
of animal exploitation.

761
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,400
And a lot of that does come down to language.

762
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,320
Former English teacher, I'm thinking

763
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:55,680
about language a lot.

764
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:01,120
And I know Ben mentioned that on his appearance here as well.

765
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,680
But little differences that if everybody applied them,

766
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,840
I'm not saying I have all the answers.

767
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,400
But if we are going to be true to the objective

768
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,720
of the movement in the 1940s and 50s, as this definition,

769
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:19,320
as this term was even coined, all other movements

770
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,880
respect the foundations of their movement.

771
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,880
All other justice movements will read the founders

772
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,320
and promote the values of the founders.

773
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,000
And it seems like with veganism, for some reason,

774
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,360
I think due to the avoidance, they

775
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,880
want to package it in ways that will be more appealing.

776
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,520
Hey, let me send my mom this article

777
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,240
about how a plant-based diet reduces risk of heart disease.

778
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:45,800
Let me send my environmentalist cousin this thing

779
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:46,800
about a plant-based diet.

780
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,480
And we're getting way too distracted.

781
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,080
It can lead someone to a plant-based diet.

782
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,920
But then they're going to be one of the worst advocates

783
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,800
for the vegan principle, which is rooted in justice, which

784
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,040
is against exploitation.

785
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,400
They're going to be talking about it

786
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,280
as an environmental stance, as a diet, as a personal choice,

787
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,280
a lifestyle, rather than something

788
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,280
that needs to happen as a moral emergency.

789
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,200
Those are my thoughts on that.

790
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,560
That's impressive.

791
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,480
I love those kinds of conversations.

792
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:27,120
And that's what makes me so glad to have created this podcast.

793
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,080
And at first, I thought the goal of this podcast

794
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,800
would be to encourage people to do more activism

795
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:42,040
and encourage myself to also do more activism for animals.

796
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:47,400
But then I find myself having debates and conversations

797
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,640
about what's the best way of doing activism.

798
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,520
And I'm discovering how it's not that straightforward.

799
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,160
And those debates and conversations,

800
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,520
we're not having them.

801
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,760
And yeah, it's truly fascinating.

802
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:08,080
And I don't know how I found myself in this situation.

803
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,920
But yeah, especially when you have some of these crossians

804
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,520
coming out.

805
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,920
And they are a bit aggressive with the vegan activists

806
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,280
who they disagree with.

807
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:24,040
Because their position is that these vegan activists

808
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:29,120
are diluting the message and actively harming the message.

809
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,200
So if you want to encourage a plant-based diet,

810
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:32,920
you can do that.

811
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,360
If you want to send a different message, you can do that.

812
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,600
But these activists are really firm

813
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,800
about reclaiming this word vegan for its original definition

814
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,120
developed by Leslie Cross.

815
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:51,120
And they can be a bit antagonistic and aggressive

816
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,720
to ways where now a lot of the, it seems like infighting.

817
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:59,160
And a lot of these activists are now

818
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:04,080
digging their heels in against the Leslie Cross definition

819
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:05,120
and saying, no, no, no.

820
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:05,920
I have it right.

821
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,760
And then it's becoming this contentious thing.

822
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,600
I'm grateful that it wasn't something

823
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,760
where I was called out in an aggressive way.

824
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,320
Because if I was, it's just human psychology.

825
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,760
I might have rejected this message even further

826
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,560
and said, no, I'm good.

827
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:20,320
I got this.

828
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,520
I don't need to read the factors.

829
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,640
So I'm grateful that it came to me

830
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,840
in a way that was easy to understand.

831
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,640
And my ego didn't get in the way.

832
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,680
But I think that we should be having conversations

833
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:39,960
like this about how to improve the efficiency of this movement

834
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:41,880
and hold each other accountable too.

835
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,760
Like, hey, actually, these words and phrases that you're using

836
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,120
are sending the opposite message and are actively

837
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,400
harming the message.

838
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,200
This one's kind of interesting.

839
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,840
We can go down this a bit.

840
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,720
But these individuals who promote Leslie Cross's

841
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:04,800
definition also are against single issue campaigns.

842
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,400
And I know that that's not a super novel issue or topic

843
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:10,720
with vegans.

844
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:14,800
You either have your radical reform

845
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,480
or your gradual increases.

846
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,680
But with single issue campaigns, the message

847
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:26,280
that we might be sending out is, hey, this level of torture

848
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,640
is really wrong.

849
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,160
This level of abuse is wrong.

850
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,080
Other forms of animal exploitation are fine.

851
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,600
But this one here, I really disagree with this one.

852
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,440
Let's all be really loud.

853
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,960
And then what you find is that non-vegans will even chime in

854
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,040
and say, yeah, I disagree with foie gras.

855
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:45,160
That's really cruel.

856
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:46,080
That's really torturous.

857
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,000
I'm still going to continue exploiting animals.

858
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,320
I'll still continue using them and viewing them

859
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,040
as objects and resources.

860
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,480
My mindset hasn't changed, the non-vegan says.

861
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,400
Like my perception of animals as objects and resources for me

862
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:01,840
to use is still there.

863
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,560
But I feel better about having joined that anti-fouagra

864
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:06,800
protest.

865
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,120
And nothing changes.

866
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,120
And it kind of keeps perpetuating the ideas.

867
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,120
In a pragmatic way, does it help small little achievements?

868
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,080
In a pragmatic way, does it help people feel like, OK,

869
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:21,240
we're getting small wins.

870
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,720
We're moving towards something.

871
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,560
Is it a win for the ducks who are no longer having pipes

872
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:28,520
shoved down their throats?

873
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,960
Well, what I've heard is actually

874
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,760
that these industries will still continue breeding

875
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,360
ducks into existence, but using them for down

876
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,200
or using them in other ways.

877
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,120
Duck fat and other ways that we can exploit these animals

878
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:49,040
won't be force feeding them to make their livers

879
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,960
diseased as a delicacy and sell it as a delicacy.

880
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,520
But it will still continue.

881
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,320
And it's like, we feel like we're

882
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,760
making wins with these single issue campaigns.

883
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,040
But the prevailing mindset that animals are objects

884
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,080
and resources for humans to use, that hasn't been changed.

885
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:06,520
That hasn't been challenged.

886
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,480
And that hasn't moved at all.

887
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,360
The needle hasn't been moved.

888
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,000
So it has convinced me.

889
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,320
I'm fully Leslie Cross-pilled, as the internet says.

890
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:18,480
I've taken the pill.

891
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:19,760
I fully believe in it.

892
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,480
And I think that there needs to be,

893
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,960
in a way that doesn't cause too much infighting,

894
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,200
I think that there really could be a shift in the messages

895
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,400
that we put out and in the tactics as activists.

896
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:37,280
So I want my podcast to be the home of different voices,

897
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,360
even opinions that contradict themselves and people

898
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,440
from all walks of life.

899
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,400
And I try to do the same in my personal life.

900
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,640
I listen to podcasts from all over the political spectrum,

901
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,880
including right-leaning podcasts.

902
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:57,360
And recently, I was listening to a right-leaning podcast

903
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:02,120
with the host talking about how she received letters

904
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:06,560
from animal rights organizations,

905
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:13,480
criticizing her for wearing fur or for talking about foie gras

906
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,280
and how she loved that foie gras.

907
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,960
And then she said something like,

908
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,520
I understand how it's bad and all of that,

909
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,320
but I am on the top of the food pyramid.

910
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:35,760
And why is it bad to wear fur and eat foie gras,

911
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:43,480
but it's not bad to drink milk and have hamburgers?

912
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:51,840
And that really connects with what you're saying,

913
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:59,400
because no one made the case to her of animal exploitation

914
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:05,080
being bad, full stop.

915
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,640
We made the case that foie gras was bad

916
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,280
and that wearing fur was bad.

917
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:16,360
But she did not understand the whole thing, the philosophy.

918
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,120
And we lost her because of that.

919
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,840
And she's just confused now.

920
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,920
And the questions she's raising, that host,

921
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,040
are pertinent questions.

922
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,000
I mean, of course, what about the...

923
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:38,200
But what surprises me is why no one has made her the case,

924
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:39,840
like the entire vegan case?

925
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:45,160
Why are we just targeting those things she said or did,

926
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:51,200
the small instances of promoting animal abuse?

927
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:57,440
So yeah, definitely, I think that this example illustrates

928
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:04,480
well why we do need to follow the principles advocated

929
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,680
by the Leslie Cross people.

930
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:08,440
Yeah, yeah.

931
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:13,240
And that was totally eye-opening.

932
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,440
Another example that I heard from these actors,

933
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,000
because I would engage with them and sometimes even send them

934
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,440
direct message and say, well, help me understand

935
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:23,560
this a little bit better.

936
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,440
And well, OK, but I can still see how maybe a single issue

937
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,040
campaign is good, though, because it does represent a win

938
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:32,840
and all that.

939
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:34,680
And I was trying to understand it.

940
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,760
And another example that was given to me

941
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,160
was about bullfighting in Colombia,

942
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:46,320
where I believe that one president in the previous term

943
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,200
received a lot of support against bullfighting,

944
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,160
support to abolish the bullfighting tradition

945
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:54,480
in Colombia.

946
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:55,400
And it did go through.

947
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:56,120
It passed.

948
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,240
And bullfighting was outlawed completely in the country

949
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:02,920
during that president's term.

950
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,320
And then a new president came in who

951
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,360
might have some more exploitative traditions and habits.

952
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,880
And that rule was overturned.

953
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,440
And so we feel a temporary victory,

954
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,840
but culture will just keep a tug of war between one way

955
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,040
or the other rather than targeting the root.

956
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:28,520
And if everyone who was at those protests,

957
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,120
whether it's foie gras, fur, bullfighting,

958
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,920
all these single issue campaigns,

959
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,480
if everybody was instead targeting

960
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,720
the root of speciesism, targeting the mentality that

961
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:45,360
is so prevalent in society, this bias against other animals

962
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,880
and viewing them as objects, resources, or slaves, tools,

963
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,000
commodities, we're not challenging that.

964
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,240
It's going to keep going unchallenged.

965
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,040
And it's not going to significantly change.

966
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,960
And people will continue making arguments about crop deaths

967
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:09,800
and diet and other excuses that are all distractions rather

968
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,880
than that root issue.

969
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,680
So it has really revolutionized my thinking.

970
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,880
And I hope that you explore it more on your own,

971
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,640
on this podcast, through reading some of the writings.

972
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,760
I could shout out a few here.

973
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,080
There's one account called Humanify.

974
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,040
She's a psychologist.

975
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:37,800
So a lot of her writing deals with the human psychology,

976
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:43,120
the cognitive bias, the dominant bias in society,

977
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,600
and ways to unlearn this conditioning.

978
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:50,600
I mean, it's super interesting to me to read these posts.

979
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,920
David C. Arenas is another one.

980
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,280
He's the Colombian who was talking about the Colombian

981
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,080
bullfighting.

982
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:58,520
There's another one named Vicente,

983
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:03,880
who I saw on a debate with folks from the Allied Scholars

984
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,720
for Animal Protection, which is Dr. Faraaz

985
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:12,400
Harseini's nonprofit being lab-grown meat or cell-based

986
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:13,040
meat.

987
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:18,680
And absolutely, cell-based meat is a utilitarian solution.

988
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,840
But absolutely not does it align with veganism,

989
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,600
because it perpetuates the idea that animals are to be used,

990
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:30,960
that it's OK to exploit animals to be used by humans,

991
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:32,720
to benefit humans.

992
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,040
So all these little awakenings that I've

993
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,640
had from this very small but unified group of activists

994
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,560
that I think it's kind of spreading.

995
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,480
They're making enemies along the way.

996
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,600
They are burning bridges along the way.

997
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,960
But I think if their ideas spread, as it did for me,

998
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,800
a lot of things clicked into place for me

999
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,200
in my understanding.

1000
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,480
And if it happened for me, it can certainly

1001
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,400
happen for any bystander who can hear this message

1002
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,440
and understand it if they're open and ready

1003
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,200
to accept that message.

1004
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,520
I mean, you don't even have to go into it

1005
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:16,120
with the idea of accepting it or being attracted to it.

1006
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:20,840
But just educating yourself or exposing your current views

1007
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:27,360
to other views, alternative views, opposing views,

1008
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:32,160
and just having a reflection, sparking

1009
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:34,480
a reflection around that.

1010
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:40,040
I know that I remembered something

1011
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:41,480
from my conversation with Ben.

1012
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:46,680
He said veganism is not the goal.

1013
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,440
The end of animal exploitation is not the goal.

1014
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,520
We want a utopia, a better world.

1015
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,280
And the end of animal exploitation

1016
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,360
is part of that, of making that better world.

1017
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:06,440
So yeah, it's an ambitious worldview

1018
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:13,400
that does deserve some attention from people,

1019
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:14,760
and not just disregard.

1020
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,200
And I don't care about fighting.

1021
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,720
Fight it out with words, of course,

1022
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,960
not with actual violence, physical violence.

1023
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:31,480
And let's stay within the boundaries of civility.

1024
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:37,200
But what's the harm of debating, which is the better way

1025
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,440
to advocate for veganism?

1026
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:41,760
I don't find the harm in it.

1027
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,040
And actually, I find that it's good.

1028
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,320
And we should not be ideologues.

1029
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,280
So I started this conversation talking

1030
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:57,640
about how I loved the idea of being an idealist

1031
00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:59,280
and going for the moon.

1032
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:04,560
But there is a difference between idealism and ideology

1033
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:10,360
and being an ideologue and being dogmatic in what you think.

1034
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,000
So yeah, definitely.

1035
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:18,440
And I think it does play well in the theme of our conversation,

1036
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:23,960
which is just liberate yourself from the labels

1037
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:29,480
and the tribes and just gain some independence

1038
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,920
and critical thinking.

1039
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,120
It's truly freeing.

1040
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:40,280
OK, I want to say a few words about the left versus right

1041
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:45,760
debate, and we know that Trump integration is coming up.

1042
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:55,040
I really don't understand why we don't reach out

1043
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,280
to more conservative crowds.

1044
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:03,640
And we close ourselves into, no, I'm not talking about you

1045
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:14,280
directly, but overall, into this left-leading space.

1046
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,680
Why do you think it's the case?

1047
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:24,240
I don't think we covered that in our last conversation.

1048
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:29,200
But looking at it, it's just nonsensical.

1049
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:35,520
I feel it's one of those downfalls of the current activism.

1050
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,640
And that I'm truly convinced of.

1051
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:43,320
The Leslie thing, I'm still not sure where to lean on that.

1052
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:49,480
But not being partisan in our activism, I think it's key.

1053
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:50,920
I think we should.

1054
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:56,560
And I'm ready to die on that hill.

1055
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,000
So do you have any idea of why?

1056
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,960
Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with, again,

1057
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:12,280
the representation of veganism as something that it's not.

1058
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:16,920
So the first thing I'll say is that people

1059
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:24,040
do tie it in with an emotional appeal, which maybe can

1060
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:29,080
reflect more liberal values, I would say, rather than it

1061
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:34,360
being an objective, moral decision that's

1062
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,720
rooted in justice for other individuals

1063
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:43,120
and that's rooted in wanting to promote freedom for others.

1064
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:47,080
And animals count as others.

1065
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:52,120
So just that view of veganism being something that's

1066
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:57,920
rooted in something emotional, the view of veganism

1067
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,680
being as something to do with environment.

1068
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,760
Liberals and progressives might have

1069
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,120
more environmental protections and might have more priority

1070
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:09,160
to environment.

1071
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:13,440
So it gets conflated with that.

1072
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,800
This one is another, and this is only a modern phenomenon

1073
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,440
of the last 10 years or so.

1074
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,480
But I have seen a growing movement of people

1075
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:26,000
who believe that by not being vegan,

1076
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:31,520
by continuing to eat animals, by continuing to view animals

1077
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:35,320
as objects and resources, they are actually

1078
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:38,400
rejecting the mainstream narrative.

1079
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:43,200
And they are anti-establishment by being non-vegan.

1080
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,200
And again, this is more of the last 10 years or so,

1081
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:51,920
but they see that plant-based solutions are being offered

1082
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,000
as a way to combat environmental damage.

1083
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,920
And so they say, I'm removing myself

1084
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,160
from all this mumbo jumbo with the environment

1085
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:01,800
and climate change and all that.

1086
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,560
I am anti-establishment.

1087
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,480
I get my meat from animals.

1088
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,160
I use animals.

1089
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:10,600
And again, I think it's all cultural.

1090
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,120
It's all the way that it's being represented.

1091
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,160
So if we did talk about it in ways

1092
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:20,000
that were a bit more objective, that animals

1093
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,080
exist for their own purposes, not to serve humans,

1094
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,600
that is something that can be adopted by anyone.

1095
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,720
So I would say that my answer to why it leans more left

1096
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:35,200
has to do entirely with the way that it's represented.

1097
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,720
This whole movement, the objective of this movement

1098
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,760
is being misrepresented.

1099
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,000
And if it was explained to a conservative who

1100
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:50,280
does value personal freedoms, who does value a libertarian

1101
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,280
values what's called the non-aggression principle,

1102
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,600
which is you don't initiate harm or exploitation

1103
01:04:57,600 --> 01:04:58,720
against someone else.

1104
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:03,600
You don't take anything from anyone without consent.

1105
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:07,280
You live freely and you allow others to live freely.

1106
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,320
That's one of the central tenets of libertarianism

1107
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:12,920
called the non-aggression principle.

1108
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:18,800
I mean, they align so well with the vegan principle.

1109
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,960
Now, if we move away from the vegan principle

1110
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:24,560
for just a moment and talk about plant-based diets,

1111
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:28,440
I also think that there are appeals to conservatives.

1112
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,800
When you think about the billions of dollars

1113
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:34,960
that the government taxes from citizens

1114
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:40,960
to allow the meat, dairy, and egg, and honey industries

1115
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,240
to compete in the free market, if you're a conservative,

1116
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:45,640
you value it.

1117
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,720
You want there to be minimal government restrictions,

1118
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,840
minimal regulations, and minimal artificial price

1119
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,000
leveling.

1120
01:05:55,000 --> 01:06:01,360
If we paid what it actually costs for eggs, meat, dairy,

1121
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,640
it would be way, way more expensive.

1122
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,160
But we have these artificial calculations

1123
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:08,680
that come from taxes.

1124
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:12,000
And any conservative would want less taxes.

1125
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,240
Any libertarian would want less taxes.

1126
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,640
So that's another way to appeal to conservatives

1127
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,000
by talking about a plant-based diet,

1128
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:24,280
not about the vegan principle, but about a plant-based diet.

1129
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,320
Things like voluntary exchange, that's

1130
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,120
another libertarian value, consensual interactions,

1131
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,200
free from coercion.

1132
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,040
There are so many things that line up.

1133
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:39,280
And I think that we can be promoting it more.

1134
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,840
I gave you the names of a couple of conservative vegans

1135
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:43,680
that I see online.

1136
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,440
And they're talking about these things.

1137
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,280
And when I see it, I give it a like.

1138
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,320
And I keep it in the memory bank in case

1139
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,080
I encounter another conservative.

1140
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:55,680
And those are the ways, Ryan, that I

1141
01:06:55,680 --> 01:07:00,280
think that we can modify and adapt our messaging.

1142
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,960
So if we understand the other person's values,

1143
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:07,720
we can talk about it in ways that would appeal to them more

1144
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:14,480
while still remaining true to the core of the vegan principle

1145
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:18,040
without distorting it or diluting it.

1146
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:19,520
Beautiful.

1147
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:21,760
It's as simple as that, people.

1148
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,160
Listen to that.

1149
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,200
It's so clarifying.

1150
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:29,840
OK, one last thing I want to have your take on.

1151
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:34,760
Something else that was a mindfuck,

1152
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,120
sorry for my language, but in the last election

1153
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:44,120
was to compare how in the American election,

1154
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:49,560
to see them, the Democratic Party,

1155
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:56,480
pushing for a VP candidate who likes pheasant hunting.

1156
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:04,040
And there are videos of him promoting himself

1157
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:10,680
with videos of him feeding cows in a dairy farm.

1158
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,280
And that whole image of I'm with the farmers,

1159
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:21,320
and I'm a hunter, and this is what being a man means.

1160
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:27,800
And then you had the presidential candidate

1161
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:32,800
talking about how she puts almond mink in her coffee

1162
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:37,920
in the morning, like if this was a great appeal to vegans.

1163
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:41,560
And then on the right side of the political spectrum,

1164
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,800
you had Vivek Ramaswamy, who is an ethical vegetarian,

1165
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,000
describes himself as ethical vegetarian,

1166
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:52,800
and talks about how animals should become

1167
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:54,720
a core concern of conservatives.

1168
01:08:54,720 --> 01:09:00,000
You have Tulsi Gabbard, who is a vegan, again,

1169
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,000
for ethical reasons.

1170
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:07,240
And you had that whole thing with the squirrel.

1171
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,240
And I was thinking, just like with the windmills,

1172
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:19,600
this feels like a reversal of values.

1173
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:24,080
The left should be the party of Pinot de Squirrel

1174
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,160
and the ethical vegans.

1175
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,880
And why are we complete?

1176
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:32,800
Yeah, well, Tulsi is very inspiring,

1177
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,160
because she actually started on the Democratic Party,

1178
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:42,280
and then through time, through evaluating her positions,

1179
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,800
and through seeing where the culture is shifting

1180
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,240
politically, she's saying, well, conservative values actually

1181
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:52,040
make more sense to me now, at least where they are currently.

1182
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:56,880
And that is something that I think we're seeing.

1183
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,400
We're seeing people leaving the left

1184
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,720
and adopting more conservative values.

1185
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,880
And I welcome it.

1186
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:07,800
It happened to me.

1187
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,600
I mean, it happened to me in the last decade or so.

1188
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:16,760
A decade ago, I was firmly in the Democratic Party,

1189
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,960
a liberal, and then just evaluating my values

1190
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:21,800
and priorities.

1191
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,520
I started learning about libertarianism

1192
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:28,560
and viewing these two political parties

1193
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,320
and what they cherish and appreciate in society.

1194
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:37,520
And it just started making more sense to me to shift right.

1195
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:39,640
And there are some topics that I'm not

1196
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:44,200
super firm on that are core tenets of conservatism,

1197
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,920
things like Second Amendment, things like immigration.

1198
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:52,000
Personally, they don't jump out to me

1199
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,440
as things that I am fully determined on

1200
01:10:55,440 --> 01:10:58,960
or have a full solution on.

1201
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:00,920
And that's what it's all about, right, Ryan?

1202
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:02,680
We were saying, you can have, just

1203
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:07,880
because you fall on certain issues on this lane,

1204
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:09,800
politically doesn't mean that all the other ones

1205
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:14,040
have to be checked off in identically the same way.

1206
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:17,440
So yeah, I think that people are nuanced.

1207
01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:21,040
And even as we age, our priorities shift

1208
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:22,000
and our values shift.

1209
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:23,360
And we learn more about history.

1210
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,240
And we see more examples in history, even in real time.

1211
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,520
Like, hey, this is happening in this country.

1212
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:29,960
And that's affecting what I believe

1213
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:32,720
will help society the most.

1214
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:40,480
So that malleability, I think, is missing in a lot of people

1215
01:11:40,480 --> 01:11:43,480
in society, where they are not malleable.

1216
01:11:43,480 --> 01:11:46,680
And they believe that if you're on the opposite end

1217
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,320
of the spectrum, you must be a bad person.

1218
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,160
You embody values that are bad.

1219
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:54,760
And that's like an evilness that people

1220
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:59,400
believe that other people on the political spectrum have.

1221
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:01,400
It's just not rooted in truth.

1222
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:05,680
It's not evil to have differing political values.

1223
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:09,240
And there's just too much of that going around.

1224
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:13,680
Yes, and I feel dumb for saying that to vegans.

1225
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:19,680
Because 10 years ago, I was eating dead corpses.

1226
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,360
And now I'm not.

1227
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,680
Talk about a change.

1228
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:27,080
So we're not our views.

1229
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,000
We're not our opinions.

1230
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:31,960
We're not our political positions.

1231
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,240
We're more than that.

1232
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:40,480
So let's not judge people according

1233
01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:42,440
to their views or opinions.

1234
01:12:42,440 --> 01:12:48,480
Let's look at them and not their views and confirm that.

1235
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:53,800
Yeah, and it also reflects in my own life.

1236
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,240
I have these ideas, but I haven't had too much

1237
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,320
of a platform to talk about them.

1238
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,760
I have had one-on-one conversations with friends.

1239
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,520
And I have surprised a few of them who just believe,

1240
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:07,320
oh, you're into art, music.

1241
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,200
You're in the underground scene.

1242
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:10,760
You're vegan.

1243
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:12,400
It must be.

1244
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:16,800
It has to be that you believe these certain political values.

1245
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:18,800
And it's not the case.

1246
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:23,280
So if I can inspire anyone to break free

1247
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:26,040
from whatever the political box that you're in

1248
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:27,880
tells you to believe, please do.

1249
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:31,160
Because we are so much more than that.

1250
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,880
And we have the potential to really align with what

1251
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:35,680
we believe to be true.

1252
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:38,080
And the more we do that, the more fulfillment

1253
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,160
there is in our own lives.

1254
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,840
And the more we can structure society

1255
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:48,840
in ways that feel right and true to ourselves.

1256
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,640
What a wonderful way to end this conversation,

1257
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:55,000
to wonderful message.

1258
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:56,520
Thank you so much, Andres.

1259
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,480
Thank you for having stopped by.

1260
01:13:58,480 --> 01:14:03,200
And I was really happy to catch up with you.

1261
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:03,680
Cool.

1262
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:04,760
Always a good time, Ryan.

1263
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,000
And I'll hop back on any time.

1264
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:07,520
Yes.

1265
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,160
And just a quick thing.

1266
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:18,720
Andres did one of the voiceovers in the Psycho.

1267
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:19,400
What's the name?

1268
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:24,200
The psychedelic episode I did.

1269
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,640
So yeah, go check that episode.

1270
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:30,960
And you will recognize his voice in the intro.

1271
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:32,080
Awesome.

1272
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:32,560
Awesome.

1273
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:33,000
Thanks, Ryan.

1274
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,240
Keep up the podcast, because we need more conversations

1275
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:36,720
like this.

1276
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:38,800
Thank you, everyone, for listening.

1277
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,360
I kindly invite you to share this podcast

1278
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:42,920
with the vegans you know.

1279
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,680
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1280
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:48,920
Again, thank you so much for caring.

1281
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:54,640
And I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.