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Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and let me ask you this, what if you could harness the God powers of AI to convince the world of going vegan?

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What if every time someone showed skepticism towards veganism, you would know, thanks to AI, just the right thing to say to inspire them to respond to their skepticism?

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That is the ambitious goal today's guest Ben Mazaya is pursuing. He is training ChatGPT to become the perfect vegan activist and he shares with us the surprising insights he got from doing that.

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Try vegan activist ChatGPT now, it's really fun, link in the episode notes.

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So Ben, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Yes.

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I wanted to start with something that has been on my mind for a while now.

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And which is the different words we use to describe people in this animal rights movement. So think about plant based, vegan, animal rights activist, animal liberation activists.

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And I kind of feel confused by all of those words. And I also wonder, you know, what qualifies someone as an activist, because I was thinking, am I an activist?

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Like, I do this podcast, I do some other things on the side. But when I think about animal rights activists, I think about you.

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I think about Natalie Bartoszek, who is a guest of the show. I think of people who are on the ground protesting, you know, entering factory farms, doing that kind of on the ground work, or maybe the lawyers, you know, who are going against some big animal exploitation corporation.

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So give me your insight about all of this.

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Yeah, I mean, so personally, I like to call myself a vegan activist.

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You know, veganism, in my view, is barely clearly defined, you know, the objects, the objective of the movement is very clearly defined. And for me, like that, in my opinion, is the easiest form of like street outreach that doesn't require lots of like knowledge or, or, you know, background or, you know, understanding of statistics or whatever, like anybody can go and do vegan outreach.

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But for me, I think like, anybody who is active in any way possible is an activist, right.

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So, even if you're, you know, maybe you're not cut out for going on the street, and everybody is, and so I'm not going to expect everybody to go out on the street.

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You know, but there's so many different things like you're saying behind the scenes, even if it's just with your friends, even if it's in your normal day, you know, and somebody starts talking or making fun of like a joke and you're, and you know that there's like an animal kind of like exploitative language to that joke and you kind of correct them, right.

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That's an activist, right. So somebody who is willing to like say what nobody is wanting to say kind of thing, right. So, you're not, you're not stopping yourself from, oh, like, you know, I don't want to say this right now because, you know, it might bring up.

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And there probably is certain times where you do just choose to keep your mouth shut, but you have probably more context of situation in the people so you know it's not worth it, right. But an activist has that kind of like fire every time they hear or they see they want to say something or do something, right.

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I don't think that, you know, yeah, you should not like, or you should feel bad about yourself because you're not on the street or like something like that like you have a podcast I think that's awesome. Right.

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And one thing I think that the space needs more of is education, right. And so like even if you're just an educator, you're teaching people or making content like that's that's huge. And I think it goes a long way for the animal.

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What about, you know, do you think that vegans in general are by default activists. So I feel like we're always as vegans.

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And even if our intention is not to be an activist, we find ourselves in those situations with family with friends in the workplace where we need to defend animals and talk about veganism or animal rights.

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Do you feel it's a default position anyway.

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Yeah, so if like for in the word is specifically they're vegan, right. If somebody is plant based, I don't consider them an activist, they might not be, you know, vegan per se, because they might still wear leather or something like that.

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Even if they're like an ethical plant based and, you know, no animal products or anything like that, you know, some of those people are still maybe speciesist in certain ways or, you know, there's still some supremacy there.

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And I feel like, OK, well, you know, if there was like a really nice way for me to exploit animals in the future, I will right now. There aren't really any. So, you know, also, like, I don't really want to like say that someone is or isn't vegan.

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You know, I'm not going to like tell somebody, oh, like, you're not actual vegan. You know, I think most people like genuinely want to be or think they are or something like that. And so for me, it's more about, you know, inspiring, inspiring the mindset, the belief.

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But what was the original question again? I think I veered off.

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It's OK. It happens all the time.

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Yeah.

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It was about how just being vegan puts you in the position.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, like, you know, just being vegan, like when you look at like any of the principles behind them, right, there is like a level of rejecting.

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Right. So the rejecting is an action that comes from that principle. And so to me, part of being vegan means that you need to be active because the reason you're vegan, because you see this injustice.

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Right. And when you see this injustice, how do you stay silent? Like, right. So if you haven't seen the injustice and you're just eating a plant based diet, like, of course, how are you going to be active? How are you going to be saying something about it?

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Right. And that's, I think, the difference. I mean, not think. I know that's what the difference is.

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There's lots of yeah, there's lots of people out there who say they're vegan, who I probably wouldn't consider vegan, you know, but I think those people are, you know, easy to reach in terms of like getting them to that point.

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And so, you know, a little bit of focus needs to be put there. A little bit of focus needs to be put in education, a little bit of focus needs to be put in outreach with non-vegans, a little bit of focus needs to be put, you know, everywhere. And I think there's lots of people who are targeting each area with expertise.

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And what do you make of the idea that every vegan is an ambassador of the cause?

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How many times, I don't, I stopped counting how many times people have told me, you know, I like how you are as a vegan, like you're different from the other vegans.

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And I'm just wondering what other vegans, they must have, you know, they must have watched something on social media with some crazy lunatic vegan or some memes about it, or maybe something that someone, you know, described an anti-vegan, how they describe vegans.

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Like, I'm put against that image of a crazy lunatic vegan, an extreme vegan. And I'm always being told, you know, like you're normal. And that's like, if it was some kind of surprise or, you know, to express their shock, like you're a normal vegan, how come?

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Well, there's this bias in society, right? And it's like, people want to have their beliefs, you know, confirmed, right? And so it's like the thing where, you know, a sports player will get injured, right? And just happens, it's normal, right?

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But that sports player happens to be vegan and gets injured, right? It's because he's vegan, right? And so there's the, like vegans are singled out because we're part of this out group, right?

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Because we're still a minority. And so there's the in group and then the out group, right? And so the people in the out group, when anything happens in there, it's because they're part of the out group, right?

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But if you're in the in group, it's like, oh, it's just normal, whatever, like nobody questions it. Nobody cares to ever think about it, right?

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And so, you know, as vegans, like to me, like veganism is not a personality. It's not an identity. It's not a lifestyle or anything, right?

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Just as much as like me being against, you know, rape or something, you know, any other injustice, like that's not who I am, right? Like we're so much deeper than that. We're so much more profound. Like all of us still have a different music taste or, you know, we do different things or we work different jobs or, you know.

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So how do you like, you know, like group all of us in one category like that? Like it's impossible, you know? So but when it comes to being ambassadors, like I think like we as vegans don't actually do enough.

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And it's one of the things that, you know, I've been talking about a lot lately is the what is the difference between the animal rights and the vegan movement, right?

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And so a lot of people that I asked, they just think that they're synonymous with each other. Like veganism means animal rights and animal rights means veganism, right?

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And I'm like, because I'm a data guy, like I always like to overanalyze things and I'm in my head a lot and I'm thinking and I'm doing research. And so when I actually like went vegan, I started learning about activism.

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I was watching all these activists and on YouTube and everything and I just kind of like never really put much thought into it. Like these guys have been vegan forever and they got millions of followers and they're doing this stuff.

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So like what they're doing must work. And so I just kind of like adopted it and never really asked any questions. And when I started realizing and started actually like critically thinking and I actually like had a burnout period.

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And so that's where I was starting to do all of this reflecting. But I was like, OK, well, we're talking about animal rights. Like what is a rights violation? Right.

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And so if I'm if I'm walking down the side of the road and I see an abandoned egg there and I happen to take it and eat it, is there a rights violation?

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I don't know. This is like really, you know, unclear to me now. Or if I see a feather and I use that, is that a rights violation? Right.

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What if I step on an ant when I'm walking? I'm technically I'm violating the rights of that ant. And I was like, you know, OK, so like trying to like now find some kind of information like what what is animal rights and what isn't animal rights.

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And so then I was like lost in this like legal framework versus moral framework, which kind of rights are you fighting for? And it's like, well, when you go back to like slavery and how that was human slavery and how that was abolished or mostly abolished.

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First, there was like, you know, people that had to actually convince everybody that, you know, black people were human. Right. And that, you know, this is wrong. And so once you had enough of those people, then you were able to go to like the law and actually start like fighting for laws and doing all this more legal battle.

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Right. But you needed to have that foundation. And we're still not really there in that stage, I think, with this movement. So like the difference to me between vegan activism and animal rights activism is that we're trying to get this mindset shift as

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we're trying to get people to be vegan. So get people to just recognize that animals are individuals. Right. That they're just like you and I. Right. Not necessarily equal, but we're all the same as in we're all unique. Right. We all have our own subjective experience.

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We all want to live. We all want to be happy. Right. And so getting enough people to recognize animals as individuals and not commodities and objects. Right. Creates the potential for this shift.

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Right. And then what happens with that is, you know, you start to get more people and then you start to hit this point where now it's like getting to this critical mass and then the movement starts to grow exponentially. Right.

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Because this mindset shift is something that's very simple. It's very easy. It doesn't take, you know, a lot of debating and statistics or anything to really get people to make that connection. It's like, hey, look, like, you know, and you can target people who actually have more empathy.

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You know, you can vet them and make sure that you're qualifying them to make sure, okay, this this person I'm talking to is not a psychopath. Right. And they seem to actually care about animals. And if they have a little bit of that, then you can have the conversation.

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It's really easy to have. And, you know, you're not wasting your time. So that's vegan activism to me. And then you go into animal rights and it's like, okay, you know, again, now there's like this cloudy area.

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I mean, Tom Reagan was, I think, the person who, you know, coined the term or founded this and his stuff is really amazing. And I like listening to it. But I yeah, I still just get confused. I don't know.

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So when I'm doing animal rights activism, am I trying to say like, you know, do animals deserve the right to freedom? Do they deserve the right to this? Which rights am I trying to fight for? How do I try and convince people that they deserve rights?

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Or am I not talking to people? And am I going so, you know, this is something that to me is very confusing. Still, it's not very clear. And not that it's not important. But for me, I like to call myself a vegan activist.

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And I think there's a stigma around the word vegan, too. And I think that that's why people might go and resort to calling themselves animal rights activists, because they don't want to, you know, apply that stigma to what they do.

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And this is where I mean, as ambassadors, I think we should be doing more, right? If we're not even willing to represent the right movement in our activism and understand what the movement is about.

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And, you know, how would other people take it seriously? Right. So if we don't take the movement seriously, like, I don't think anybody else will. And as vegan activists, it's our job, one, to get people to connect with the animals to make that realization.

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But also to let people know what veganism actually is. Right. So even if there's an outreach conversation on the street and you get that person walking away, just realizing that veganism is not a diet. I think that is like, you know, huge. Right.

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So, yeah, as activists, I think we need to better represent that.

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You said earlier that the whole thing about being an ambassador, we're not doing enough of that. What did you mean by that? And how can we be vegan ambassadors?

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Yeah, I think like, you know, we have to. I don't want to use the word pride because I don't think pride is the right word, but we really have to have the conviction. Right. That this is the right thing to do. Right.

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And I think most vegans have that internally, but it's still being suppressed because of societal pressures. Right. I mean, I know a lot of people who fit under the whole ethical side and are definitely vegan for the right reasons.

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But when they go out or when they're with friends or at work, they don't even want to say that they're vegan. Right. And, you know, I can relate. Like, I can empathize with them.

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But, you know, it doesn't help when somebody all of a sudden learns that, oh, this person's vegan and is like, oh, why didn't you want to tell me or, you know, or some other conclusions are drawn up.

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And it's like, you know, you don't have to go out there where big vegan t-shirt and just constantly be, you know, loud. But like, if you're embarrassed that you're vegan. Right. Like, like, like what what inside of you is really getting getting you to that point.

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And so as ambassadors, it's our job to, like I said, explain what veganism is just as simply as you can. Right. Leslie Cross, as you know, we're going to probably talk about soon here in his speech.

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He said that, you know, veganism is the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals.

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And he asked everybody to just memorize that line so that whenever somebody hears the word vegan, we're all on the same page. Right. And it's super simple. It's six words. Right. And anybody can memorize it.

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And, you know, that is, I think, one of our biggest roles is like, okay, just tell someone you're vegan. And all you have to do is say why is like, oh, I don't think we should be exploiting animals. Right.

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And if you even say that, if you can represent veganism in that way, however you want to word it, you know, like I'm I'm I don't want to be a vegan police. Like, I think everybody should, you know, stick to that simplified definition.

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And I have my reasons. But, you know, again, I can't control non-vegans. Why would I want to control vegans? Right.

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But but yeah, I think as ambassadors, it's our role to reject exploitation, reject the mindset anywhere that we see it, as long as we have the ability and are able to do that.

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I see that, you know, everything you just said applies to me in the workplace. I feel like I had that influence at every job I had in the past decade.

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Like, I found myself influencing choices of, you know, human resources of organizing, you know, going to a restaurant or for birthdays. Now they're choosing vegan cakes or, you know, choosing at least restaurants with vegan options.

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And that conversation, I had that conversation so many times with colleagues of, you know, why are you vegan? Why did you decide to become vegan?

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You know, all the usual questions. I feel like this is my battleground as a vegan ambassador, the workplace.

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Yeah. And we often forget about the corporate setting and how much influence we can have on our organizations, our employers.

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Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like they're online, like there's a lot of trolls and most people are so exposed to that.

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And if you're doing activism and you're on the street, like, you know, there's a lot of trolls too. And so we might like over assume that everybody is like that.

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Right. But when it comes to our friends and our families, like and people who are close to us, like, you know, they care about us.

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And like, you know, for me, like I told my family and most of my friends that like, you know, I won't go for dinner if you're not going to be eating vegan in front of me. Like, I mean, like I just like in a respectful way.

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And they all respect me. So they won't, you know, eat dead animals around me or they won't, you know, want to take me to places that are going to be like a zoo or something.

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Right. So, you know, and, you know, my background is Lebanese. And so like we go to a Lebanese restaurant. There's so many vegan options.

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Right. And so if, if you have that fear, like there's probably something else that needs to be addressed to.

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Right. Like these are simple conversations. They're easy. And all you're really asking for is respect.

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Like, you know, if you respect me, like why, or if you don't respect me, why do you want to be my friend anyways? Right. Or, you know, I mean, work, work space too is you have to be respectful and professional and, you know, everybody should be at least heard and, and that kind of thing.

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And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a good place and, you know, creates lots of opportunities for these conversations. And, and yeah, if you have the means and the ability to then, yeah, I think there's, there's an obligation there.

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And talking about those conversations, we're not all great communicators like yourself. And so you created the tool for us, an AI tool called vegan activist GPT, which allows you to basically, you know, take copy a comment you receive, or I guess, input that comment into the AI chat and get a response from the AI telling you.

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Basically what to respond in order to convince that person of going vegan. Now, the first time I heard about this tool, I was just, you know, amazed. Like, that's so great. Like, that's exactly what I like to hear in the, you know, in terms of activism.

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I want to see innovation and I want to see, you know, intelligence and, and that's everything I want to see. Okay. How did you came up with that idea?

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And what was the process of building a vegan activist GPT? Like for me, who has no like programmer skill, this is like beyond my, you know, skills. So tell us about that.

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So, I mean, yeah, my background is in coding. And I went to school for computer science and then I went to digital media and then actually graduated from video game design. So, you know, I built characters before I know kind of what goes into that.

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And I always kind of like modeling and designing characters and 3D art and that kind of stuff. And that's my background. So my background is not in communication. English is my third language and I failed.

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Well, I pretty much failed English every year in school. I was like the math guy, you know, numbers guy. I think I got like a 57% in English class in like grade 12 and I barely got me into university with that, like late accepted.

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And then I, I failed English in university. So, you know, I'm not a good communicator. Right. So that was the first part of me wanting to create this because I actually when I became vegan and maybe a little bit before that, too, I started just realizing like, you know, I used to be very careless and I've grown a lot.

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And I used to say like, Oh, if somebody doesn't understand me, that's their problem. Right. And I realized like, like, why am I saying that? Like, why do I want it to even be living in that reality? Right.

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And so I realized like, I could just easily learn how to be a better communicator and communicate effectively. And so I actually like took a really big step to, you know, be more just mindful of what I'm saying, be more intentional about what I'm saying and put more care and thought into it.

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And I think that was like a good foundation for that.

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So, you know, when it came to time assault to veganism, when I first started my activism, you know, we didn't have any flow charts or frameworks. It was more just like, watch YouTube and trying to remember what they're saying and doing what they're doing and just go out there and it's like a free for all.

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And I remember the first time getting the flow chart for AV.

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I was like, Oh my God, this is like the Holy Grail right now. Like, this is so genius. And I just like wrote it in my phone right away. And I just kept like memorizing and reading it. And even for the first conversations, I would like have my phone with me and I would just like read off the questions.

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And it started to really click for me and realize how powerful that was and sharing that with all the other activists in my chapter like it was huge for them too because now we had structure. Now we had something that you can actually teach. Right.

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And so people can make sense of what to say, how to say and how to be effective. And I took that and I started to like, you know, really cherish it and also wanted to make it better.

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And fast forward to, you know, when Chad GBT came out, like, it's almost been two years, I think, or over two years ago now.

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You know, being a guy in tech, I've always like been excited about this kind of stuff. And so when Chad GBT came out, I was like one of the first people I had my my sign up and I got access and I was just like, asking everything and lots of like, you know, lots of activism, I was just learning or researching I was doing through your chat GBT.

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And so, you know, sometimes I would ask you like, what's the best way to say this or what's the best way to say that or how's it a different way I can say this and so I started using it to like, help me say what I want to say so I still had to be the one prompting it with what I want to tell me or what I want to output so that I can say that.

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And that was actually teaching me so much.

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And so that was number one the most powerful tool. And then, after I started posting on social media.

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One of my videos just like started, didn't even really go that viral but I woke up one night, and I had like over 150 comments on this video and I was like, what the heck like now I'm like shaking you know when you're like, first getting into like posting online and you get all the trolls and you're kind of like, you know, you don't know you're just so anxious and it's kind of like you're like how am I going to answer all these people but can't like not answer all these people and so I started like,

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you know going into chat GBT and I started like writing I wrote this video. And this is what I was saying in the video and I want you to like help me respond to the comments.

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So that, like, you know, I don't have to write and type and spend like, you know, probably three days worth to answer all these comments so I gave chat GBT the context of what my video is about and then I would just like paste copy and paste the comments and it would generate the responses.

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And, you know, it was, it was really good. I mean, it didn't really represent like the stance properly, and how I would have responded because of pulling all this information from the internet and there's lots of, you know, information out there and so.

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Okay, like this is kind of working but not really so I spent like, maybe like another hour really getting it to like train it on what kind of responses I want and then I, it was like a flow so then I actually like was able once that was ready answer, like over 150

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seconds within like, you know, maybe 30 or 40 minutes. And then, you know, that was just like using chat GBT normally and I was like, okay, I don't want to have to like set up the environment like this.

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Every time, right, my, my one of my videos goes viral and so I started programming like a custom GBT, so that that way I am giving it all the instructions I'm giving it like examples I'm giving it frameworks and uploading documentation I'm writing documentation, so that I

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can handle different topics and it can learn all these different things and so from that post of like getting 150 comments and being overwhelmed and not knowing how is going to answer them all, essentially birth, this idea that eventually turned into the vegan activist GBT.

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And how many people have used that.

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To date.

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Um, actually, I can actually see if I go to the.

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Go check a look.

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Last I checked.

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So, it doesn't show how many people but it shows that there's been over 1000 conversations that have been started with it.

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And so the numbers usually go from, I think 1000 to 10,000 so at 10,000 I'll start showing that I've had more than 10,000 so it's somewhere actually between maybe 1000 and 10,000.

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But, you know, I have been getting lots of messages from people who are using it who are just, you know, raving about it because it's so like needed in the space right.

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And so whether you're using it for, you know, responding to comments, or just getting information or learning about how to, you know, address certain arguments or, you know, you can actually use it to help you make content you can use it to do all these other things

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and uploaded a lot of documentation into there where you know if you want to go into like more nitty gritty stuff about veganism, you know, uploaded, like the foundational frameworks and the speeches and, and all that stuff I've written stuff about moral frameworks about

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the ontological frameworks utilitarian frameworks. And so, you know, it goes pretty in depth on all these things and, you know, if anybody is watching this like my favorite prompt to use on any educational topic with any GPT is, I want you to quiz me on this topic.

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Right. And then quiz me one question at a time.

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Let's say you want to learn about utilitarianism right, go to the chat GBT and be like I want you to quiz me on moral framework of utilitarianism. Right. If you don't really understand what it is, boom, they'll start asking you questions if you get it wrong, it'll start to teach you

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Okay, this is the right answer and this is why and so then you're actually able to build this knowledge base in like this like very fun and interactive way rather than like reading like blocks and blocks and not really knowing. Right. And then let's say you don't really understand a question, then you know you can ask it more.

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So that's one piece of advice you know I want to leave everybody with especially if you're using my GPT and anything you want to learn about veganism like even if you're not vegan and say like hey quiz me on why people go vegan or what you know the common reasons or what is the history of this. Right.

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Good. Good way to learn things.

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I love it. I love, you know, let's harness the power of AI for animals.

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And this is revealing because this would not be possible if there was no pattern in the questions and answers the conversations around veganism and animal rights. I, I always hear the same things you know when I ask, you know, why are you not vegan, it's always the same concerns, it's always the same

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silly arguments about plants having feelings.

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And how interesting that it comes from everyone, like there is no difference of culture, whether you are a college graduate, or, you know, someone who is working class.

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You think plants have feelings and that you need a protein intake that a plant based diet will not give you and all of those, you know, same false ideas.

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How do you explain that, because sometimes I feel like we all went to anti vegan school, and we got brainwashed with the same thought patterns.

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And, like when that, when did that brainwashing happen like I, you know, what's going on.

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I'm going to answer this question in a way that probably no one is ever going to answer this ever again. But when I was programming this GPT, you know, the thing is that it pulls from the internet, a lot right.

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And so a lot of content out there on veganism is about the environment, a lot of it is about health and a lot of it is about reducing the harm and suffering and all these things, things that I don't relate with and I know that the movement is not really about but it's kind of

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conflated in that way. So I had to sit and like, think of a way to like just like say hey never ever go into these realms, even though I would type in these instructions, because it still can go into the internet, it would always like come up with the

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randomness thing sometimes and like, okay, this is not right. So, I actually had to tackle the root. So if I was to now program a GPT that I never actually use the word vegan in.

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And I'm more just explaining principles and I'm more giving it more of a framework like an abstract framework, rather than you know, using the word because then if I use the word then it's going to go to the internet, pull up information around that word and start bringing that in.

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And so, what that actually led me to do was I actually defined a whole new word by accident. And so I have this word I have so much documentation on it that I might publish this in the future.

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But ultimately this word is the ultimate definition of this state that you're talking about. And the best way to define it is essentially it's like an, it's a conditioned systemic obsession with controlling and dominating other animals, right.

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And that's what the root is. And this is what's been pushed on to us. And it goes as deep as like language and idioms and, you know, marketing and conditioning and tradition and all these things right.

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And ultimately what veganism seeks to do is dismantle that. So the new version of the activist AI that I'm building right now is trained fully on this, this word and identifying where in everyone's arguments that happens to be present and addressing that, right.

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So it's not going into facts, it's not going into talking about, you know, what generic people would, you know, answer to all the questions, but it goes directly into the root.

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So it identifies why is this person asking this, where is this obsession coming from? Where is this mania coming from? And how do I dismantle it? And this is like the powerful thing. Like I actually so excited to be launching that one when it's ready.

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I have a couple of friends who are constantly like using it and sending me, you know, their chat history so I can kind of analyze it and maybe tweak some of the instructions. But yeah, it's it is there is this root that is behind all of these questions like you say.

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And it's verifiable. I know it. The GPT has come up with that on its own in a sense. And yeah, it's just everywhere around us, everywhere in society. And because it's like I was talking about before the in-group, because everybody in that in-group wants to like be, you know, confirming their bias.

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It's just going to keep getting worse and worse. And it's up to us to break out and find those people who are actually just ready to break out like we were and come on to our side.

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Now I just want to know the word. What is it?

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Maybe I'll tell you after.

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I'll tell you after we're done.

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Yes, because it's truly fascinating. And I think you have your finger on something like, yeah, I guess.

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What about the other words, you know, speciesism,

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anthropocentrism? What about all of those other words? Where are there limitations? Yeah. I mean, like, again, when I heard all these words, like, yeah, they seem like so perfect.

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Carnism, speciesism, human supremacy. Right. And and I don't want to say they're bad words, but they're not the full scope.

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Like, they don't encapsulate the whole problem. Right. Because even a vegan, you know, can technically be speciesist. Right.

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And and, you know, I can tell you the reasons and I will.

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But one of the things that I love about the GPT is I can enter into debates with it to like help me break apart my own arguments.

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Right. So, you know, I have OK, what's the harm in using the word speciesism versus the benefits of using it. Right.

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And then I can challenge it. And it actually like gives me such good insights. Right.

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And so a lot of my, you know, stance has been developed through teaching this how to perfectly represent veganism, perfectly represent what the opposite of veganism is and then learn from it.

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Right. And so, you know, speciesism, for example.

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Is it possible to be vegan and speciesist? Right.

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So, um. Ultimately, if speciesism or veganism is about dismantling this obsession that we have with controlling and dominating animals for our own uses.

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Right. I could still see one animal as more inherently valuable than another animal. Right.

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I could still recognize that maybe they're not even individuals. Right. Maybe, you know, but, you know, I don't want to harm them or I don't want to exploit them.

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So, right. Or maybe like when it comes to like certain levels of maybe people like, you know, for me, I think sentience is just like all or nothing.

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I don't want to really debate that. It's my opinion or position.

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And so when you're talking about sentience on like a scale, right.

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Like, where do you draw the line of like, OK, this amount of sentience means like treating this way or this way or with that. Right.

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So like there could be like, and these are all really, really edge case kind of scenarios.

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But I think that it is really important to understand when we use these words that they aren't perfect, perfectly representing what it is that veganism is fighting against.

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Right. Human supremacy. Again, people can still think humans are superior. Right.

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And people can even think humans are superior in ways that are good ways. Right.

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Because we are superior, it's our responsibility to take care of, you know, others who are weaker or more innocent. Right.

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And so like, you know, there's human supremacy like that we use making it look like white supremacy, which is a bad thing.

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But it could also be like a I mean, religions and ancient texts do talk about these things, how, you know, we are superior.

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But we were given this right to steward the other animals because of that superiority. Right.

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So I started not really liking those words. And then with carnism, right.

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Carn, carne comes from the word meat, which meets just means like, you know, if I'm talking about carnism, I'm talking about food.

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And so then people think that I'm talking about a diet and I don't want to be talking about a diet.

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So, you know, realizing all these words, the meanings and and you know, you have to like understand how people are receptive to the words that you're using.

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Right. You know, if I know a word to mean one thing, but when I'm using it, everybody thinks I'm talking about something else.

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Like, I'm talking because I'm trying to be getting through to them. Right.

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I'm not trying to, you know, talk to just try and get them to like use the words I'm using necessarily. Right.

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So if we're using the world cruelty, for example, like everybody is convinced that the food that they're eating or the clothes that they're wearing comes cruelty free. Right.

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So to them, cruelty just means like, oh, yeah, I was humane or it was, you know, whatever.

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And so if we're talking about being anti cruelty, everybody technically is anti cruelty and everybody already is convinced that they are anti cruelty and you can't really convince them otherwise.

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Right. And so, yeah, a lot of these words have so much deeper meaning and words are so important.

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And like, I can't stress that enough. And when we are doing activism, when we are ambassadors for this movement, I think like all of us need to sit and critically think like, OK, you know, remove the ego, remove the arrogance and put all that stuff aside.

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And really, if you're a vegan and you're vegan for the right reason, you're you're doing this for the emancipation of animals.

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And these small changes add up so much. Right. And we owe it to them. Right. And if we're not going to do it, who else is right.

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So I think all of us really need to like put this, you know, there's a lot of fighting and stuff going on inside and, you know, I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want to be fighting with other activists.

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Right. And so I'm not really going out there and trying to like argue with people that they should use this word or that word.

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But I'm posting content that's kind of showing and highlighting the differences or the pros and the cons and or just even saying why.

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And a lot of people are pushing back and a lot of people are sending me messages being like, holy smokes, like I get it.

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Like this makes so much sense. And I've been using this and it's night and day. Right.

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I haven't had anybody who's sent me a message saying like, hey, Ben, like I tried to use this and it sucks.

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Like I couldn't or this, you know, blah, blah. And some people have said that they've struggled with it and I've helped them like understand and taught them really like because you're you're framing it from a new perspective.

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Right. So you're not really going into the conversations expecting a debate.

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You're going into the conversation, just getting them to make this connection. Right.

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You're controlling the conversation is a really easy conversation to have.

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And, you know, any time there's a deflection, you can easily just bring it back to like the justice, the injustice at hand.

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Right. And so, yeah, I'm really passionate about words.

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And it's all kind of like come from, you know, just my passion for this for the animals and their freedom.

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And I absolutely love that. And I understand where you're coming from, because, you know, I know some vegans who are deeply Christian and they make sense and frame their veganism through the scope of their Christian life.

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Yeah. And that's a whole different conceptual framework than your average secular vegan.

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And I think the average vegan out there does not get that.

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Same could be said about Buddhism.

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You know, if I made an episode with Dharma Voices for Animals and another one with Bikkhusonyo, who is a vegan monk. If you want to talk about veganism from a Buddhist perspective, this is a whole different ballgame than, you know, the usual conversation we hear about veganism.

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So I completely understand that. And I think that you'll get lots of sympathy from at least, you know, vegans who are religious or at least justify their veganism because of their religiosity or spirituality.

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You know, there's something here because my parents are both Christian Catholic. And when I went vegan, you know, I was talking to them a lot about it. And my mom and I, like, our religious views are different, right?

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I have my own views and I don't want to say religion. I don't subscribe to our religion, but I definitely like, you know, have my view.

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And so eventually, like, you know, I started realizing that for me to talk to my mom on a topic, I have to talk to her in her language. Right.

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And so her language is the Bible. She lives by it. And so I started just reading the Bible. And, you know, from like the first page, like this was like almost five years ago now, like on the front page, I started talking about the Garden of Eden.

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Right. And I know these stories because I was still raised with the religion, but I never like actually went in to like read it myself to like make my own conclusions.

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And this is kind of what I wanted to do. You know, the Garden of Eden, you know, he tells Adam and Eve that he's created the fruits for everybody. Right.

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And then I got to the point where it talks about dominion. And I read that it wasn't actually dominion in the version of the Bible that that we had at our house.

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It was rule. So God created us to rule over all of the kingdoms and animals. And so he created the animals first and then he created us. Right.

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And and I'm like, OK, well, I know, like the Bible says about rulers, like a king ruling his kingdom has to be the servant for the kingdom, not like the other way around.

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And so when I brought that up to my mom and dad, you know, they were like. OK, you know, and it didn't even take that much longer.

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And, you know, started learning more and having these conversations with my mom. And both of them are vegan now. Right.

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And so, you know, when you when you look at the whole, you know, religion and all the religions like this is what they teach.

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Right. Some reason all these people around the world think that God created animals for us.

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But when you actually look at the book, it's right on the first page almost where it says that he actually created us for them. Right.

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And to take care of them and and like knowing this, like on the street, if somebody ever asked me, like, you know, or tells me like, oh, God created animals for us.

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Like, I just ask him, like, are you religious because of like you're actually religious? Are you just using this as an excuse to justify? Right.

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And if anybody says they're actually, you know, religious and they care about it.

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Now, I've kind of removed these barriers because now I can enter into a conversation with them and I don't want to enter like into a religious debate with people.

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But I'll ask him, like, you know, are you willing to be wrong that God created animals for us? Right.

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And and, you know, most of the people have been like, sure, if you can prove me wrong, like, you know, I'm a believer in God, so I want to know the truth.

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And then I just I point them to that that one verse saying, like, you know, God actually created us to have rulership over the animals.

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And you can go to this verse and it says that, you know, Jesus said that, you know, the rulers are supposed to be the servants and the slaves.

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And so, like, actually, what the Bible is saying is that God created us to serve them. Right.

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And he said, like, the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Right.

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So I've actually had so many people, like, thanking me for pointing that out to them.

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And it's actually fascinating. And like the revelation that people can get to when you're speaking to them in their language.

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And I think like even in the movement, I mean, I can't expect everybody to start learning all the religions and how to talk to these people.

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But I think even just from like how simple I just explained, like getting the barriers away, asking them if they're open to be wrong, pointing that out in the Bible.

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And then even if you just like if you don't know how to say anything more from there, just like tell them to go home, watch Christ's Beers or something like that can have a profound change on that person. Right.

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And I want to shout out to the vegan Catholic, vegan Catholic.org.

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The one behind it is Jesuit who is studying to become a priest.

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He's a vegan and pretty outspoken about it. He wants to see changes in the church.

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And he makes all of those arguments quite clearly on his website.

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So Daniel, Daniel Mascarin has Mascarin has Mascarin has I think his family name is.

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So, yes, definitely. We need to speak the language of the people we're trying to convince of adopting our views.

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One last thing about this.

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I'm not.

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I don't have an authoritative traits to me like the, the idea of.

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You know, trying to convince someone or using that language of influencing convincing or controlling the views of I, I just don't like that.

271
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And sometimes it feels that way with with veganism. Maybe this is just the way it is and I should try to understand better my personality and work on that.

272
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But do you know what I what I'm getting? Yeah.

273
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Like the thing is, is like to me, something I know to be true is you can't change people.

274
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So people can change their minds, people can change their views, but they have to do it on their own.

275
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:18,000
Right. You can't change somebody. So what people can do, what you can help people do is you can help them make alignments.

276
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You can help point out inconsistencies.

277
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You can help point out essentially like that what they're doing is not actually in alignment with their views and morals.

278
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They have. Right. And, you know, pushing, you know, you can push.

279
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I found like pushing is not the most effective, but I want to push.

280
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,000
Right. So how do I push without being pushy?

281
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That's kind of like this middle ground that we kind of have to enter into.

282
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And so what I've noticed is like, OK, if I'm pushing you, you're going to push me back.

283
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Right. But if I'm like, hey, let me grab your hand and come watch me while I do this thing.

284
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Right. I can essentially guide people kind of like through the not through the process, but like what it will look like if they follow me.

285
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And, you know, start to like dismantle and break down why they believe the things they believe.

286
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:31,000
Right. So, you know, when I'm doing my act, I'm taking that person on a journey.

287
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,000
Right. I mean, I don't really like the word journey because it's kind of like been used.

288
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I'm not taking it on a vegan journey, but I'm taking them on a journey.

289
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I want to use stories. I want to use imagery to help them make this connection that, you know,

290
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there's a victim on the other side that is being oppressed because of their mindset that they're refusing to let go of.

291
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Right. So. Yeah. When it comes to, you know, style and tone, like I think there is, you know, a more effective way than not.

292
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I think everybody has their own style. I don't want to say that there is a right or wrong way, but I think that we always can be growing.

293
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:26,000
We just have to realize like, yeah, the more we try and not get people to like we're not trying to convince them.

294
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We're not trying to change them. This is within them already.

295
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:38,000
But they're just not understanding the urgency and severity of the matter for them to actually make that change.

296
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And a lot of people I think out there are really like internally, they want to be good people.

297
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They actually want to care. And so, you know, bring that out of them is important.

298
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And that's something that you can't do intellectually or maybe you can with like certain people.

299
00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:03,000
But I'm talking majority like this is more of like a feeling emotional kind of like heart centered conversation.

300
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And if you if you find those people who actually are willing to have that heart centered conversation, like I'm not going to say beginning to develop love.

301
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:16,000
Like I'm talking about different things here. Those people are getting more receptive.

302
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:23,000
They're going to be more open. And it's a really easy and an awesome conversation to have with them.

303
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And I don't know about you, but for me, you know, when I made that connection, I might begin on the spot.

304
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There was no way around it. And I thought I was going to die the next day because I didn't know what to eat.

305
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,000
And that was completely fine with me. Right.

306
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:40,000
There's a whole bunch of other people out there who I know are just waiting for that message.

307
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,000
And I meet them all the time. And, you know, they're all vegan now.

308
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:50,000
So, yes, I love that dose of optimism.

309
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,000
What do you make? I need to balance that with the dose of negativity.

310
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,000
So what do you make of the ex vegans?

311
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:11,000
I feel like actually there I think there are phonetics studies showing that there are more people abandoning veganism than there are who stay vegan.

312
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:17,000
And then they're just, you know, everywhere on social media. It's incredible.

313
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:24,000
Everyone needs to announce it publicly that they're no longer vegan and how veganism was bad for them.

314
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:32,000
And I feel like if they came out of a cult, the latest one, I think is who was his name?

315
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,000
He's a Russell Brand. Yes. Yes. This one.

316
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,000
What do you make of that phenomenon?

317
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:46,000
Why are people abandoning veganism, not just the high profile one, but also everyday people?

318
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:54,000
So this is where like I think as vegans, we really have to be critical.

319
00:57:54,000 --> 00:58:04,000
And if you look at like the message that has been sent over the last however long, I've been vegan for almost six years.

320
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:09,000
So in the six years, majority of the six years, the messaging has been the same.

321
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,000
Every activist is using the same messaging.

322
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:18,000
And this is what it's leading to. It's leading to ex-vegans. Right.

323
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,000
And so the question is why? And I'm a data guy again.

324
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:29,000
When I'm going through the data, I'm looking, OK, this person, you know, is vegan and now he's not.

325
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:35,000
So when you go back and you start looking at their videos and their content, right,

326
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:41,000
the one big obvious thing is that this person is convinced that veganism is a diet. Right.

327
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:50,000
So now the question becomes, why does this person think that veganism is a diet? Right.

328
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:59,000
And so that's where I start to really analyze and not start not even analyze at that point,

329
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:04,000
but I started to actually make this like realization. Right.

330
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:10,000
All of the vegans or most 99 percent of the vegans when it comes to activism, when it comes to their language,

331
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:18,000
when it comes to what they're actually like fighting against most of the time, it's about the food aspect. Right.

332
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:26,000
And so if if we're especially if we're using these words like carnism and we're calling the meat eaters and corpse munchers and all these other things.

333
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:37,000
Right. If we're essentially, you know, calling the opposite of vegan a meat eater, aren't we saying that veganism is a diet? Right.

334
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:46,000
The big obvious one. Right. And I mean, like, I don't want to say any names, but like, you know, you look at the biggest influencers and I'm not going to bash them.

335
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:51,000
I don't want to say that because I think that they are making a change.

336
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:56,000
Maybe they're making people go back plant based. Maybe they're not going vegan to be more technical.

337
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,000
But then maybe something along that path ends up making them go vegan. Right.

338
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:07,000
And I don't really want to go into the calculations of whether this is more harmful or not. I don't I don't know.

339
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:17,000
I'm not going to make that conclusion. But, you know, when you have books like how to argue against the meat eater and win and how do you like, you know,

340
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,000
a lot of these books about veganism are all related about health and environment. Right.

341
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:31,000
I think like ultimately, like what you're doing is you're removing the justice from this this movement. Right.

342
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:36,000
And when you remove the justice from the movement, that's how you dismantle a movement.

343
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:48,000
And this is clear. And even if you go back in history, like this is something that has been done systemically to essentially silence people, to alienate people.

344
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:54,000
Right. I mean, just the easiest one I can go to right now that relates is vegetarianism. Right.

345
01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:03,000
Vegetarianism was essentially like started by Pythagoras five hundred years before Jesus was born,

346
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:09,000
which was essentially just like an ethical movement specifically relating to food. Right.

347
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:13,000
But it was one hundred percent about the ethics. Right.

348
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:20,000
And so it was very obvious. It was very simple. It was, you know, perfectly relayed.

349
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:27,000
And it did not include honey or eggs or milk or fish, apparently, or any of these other things.

350
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,000
And it was just like clear. OK, this is vegetarian and this is not. Right.

351
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:40,000
And there's a reason for it. And there was so many people who were vegetarian and movements and, you know, and everything.

352
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:47,000
And so you look at today like when you hear the word vegetarian, like doesn't really mean anything.

353
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:51,000
Like, oh, the vegetarians and some vegetarians eat meat. Some don't.

354
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:57,000
Some say that, you know, some wear leather somewhere, some eat eggs, some don't, some drink milk, some don't.

355
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:02,000
So it's completely lost its ethical foundation. And so how did that happen?

356
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:10,000
That happened, I think, specifically by one, just like pushing all the ethical stuff to the side.

357
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,000
And so why would they push all the ethical stuff to the side?

358
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,000
And there was a vegetarian society and essentially I think they were the ones responsible.

359
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:24,000
But they started adding like this like words to the vegetarianism.

360
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,000
So they started calling oboe vegetarians and lacto vegetarians and oval lacto vegetarians.

361
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:36,000
So back then there wasn't vegetarian still meant that you ate eggs, but you're oboe vegetarian, you ate eggs.

362
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:46,000
And so this started happening because, again, they were starting to to view this like exploitation as, oh, this is nice exploitation.

363
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:53,000
So then this is acceptable. And then, you know, the vegetarian society was a charity, I think, or a company.

364
01:02:53,000 --> 01:03:00,000
And so the decision was made, I'm 90 percent sure. I don't want to say this for sure.

365
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:05,000
But like how I would think about this was that, OK, we want to make more money.

366
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,000
So how do we get this movement to be more widely accepted?

367
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:12,000
Or even if it's not about money, it's more even if it's just about being more widely accepted.

368
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:26,000
Well, if we like start being more compromising on our values and we start being more kind of like just like, you know, nonchalant, I guess, then we'll have more people joining.

369
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,000
Right. And so that's what they did.

370
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:35,000
So they completely abandoned the moral framework, the moral foundation and said, OK, if you eat eggs and not meat, then you're vegetarian.

371
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,000
Oh, if you're eating milk and cheese, like, OK, you can be vegetarian, too.

372
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,000
Come on, come join us. Like, right now you have all these vegetarians.

373
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:51,000
Nobody even really knows that the real meaning of vegetarian was just like somebody who actually doesn't eat any animals or any products or anything like that.

374
01:03:51,000 --> 01:04:00,000
Right. And and now you have vegetarianism, which people don't even know, like some vegetarians eat steak sometimes, too.

375
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:19,000
And so when you when you want to like break apart a movement, that's how you do it. You remove the moral foundation. And I think that's what is missing and was missing with all these ex-vegans is that real understanding of what veganism is, what its objective is.

376
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:24,000
And, you know, they probably were just victim to some kind of trend.

377
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:33,000
And it's interesting that all of them are like influencers. So like they're probably just trying to exploit the trends on social media and help them grow.

378
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:37,000
And then they got that. And now it's not trending on social media and it's trending in the opposite direction.

379
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:51,000
So they're going in this opposite direction. And it's always about kind of like getting, you know, the followers of certain groups and attracting them and, you know, just these shady, shady, shady ways.

380
01:04:51,000 --> 01:05:02,000
I mean, I don't really know anyone personally who was a big activist like that went vegan. I know I've heard some stories of certain people.

381
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:08,000
And I think there's other reasons, too, like when it comes to partners, I think is a big one.

382
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:27,000
I do know a couple of friends and some people around me who have not gone ex-vegan because of their partner and pressure. But that comes from, I guess, I think also an insecurity inside where, you know, they're so desperate to be with somebody that that person isn't vegan and may not accept them if they aren't.

383
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:41,000
So they're willing to like completely abandon that for this like relationship. And that probably makes even less sense to me. But yeah, I think it all just kind of comes back to that.

384
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:55,000
Like they don't have the real foundation. And so that kind of leads me to saying like as activists, it's important for us to recognize that and even more important to change our language because of that.

385
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,000
This is deeply interesting.

386
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:09,000
I see an alternative timeline where veganism is not a thing, where we would be calling ourselves simply vegetarian.

387
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,000
Don't you agree with that?

388
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:27,000
Well, like there's like, you know, there's no problem with the original foundation of vegetarianism, right? And like, I think like a lot of people actually right now are doing vegetarian outreach, not vegan outreach.

389
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:43,000
And I don't think there is a problem with that at all either. If they're doing vegetarian outreach from an ethical perspective, like that does dismantle the biggest industry that's exploiting animals. But I don't want to say that is vegan activism because vegan activism is different.

390
01:06:43,000 --> 01:07:03,000
And, you know, so like in that alternate timeline, if everybody was vegetarian, right? Like, and also like when you hear of like people like Einstein was vegetarian and Tesla was vegetarian and like all these people were vegetarian or vegetarian did not mean eating eggs and milk and all that stuff.

391
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:19,000
So you also have all these people convinced that all these great intellectual thinkers and whatever were just the type of vegetarians that you have running around today. So I mean, if we had a world where all those people were vegetarian in that sense, yeah, I think that would be amazing.

392
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:37,000
Plus, like from there, you don't have all of these byproducts that are being used and everything else. And, and so, but ultimately, like I also talked about this a little bit too, like, for me, veganism isn't necessarily the goal, right?

393
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:59,000
Vegetarianism wouldn't be the goal, right? I think these are just steps into actually building a utopian kind of world where everybody is thriving, everybody is kind of living to their fullest and in harmony with everyone around them with compassion, with care and with, with love.

394
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:15,000
Like that is the ultimate goal, right? Veganism to me is just the baseline, right? It's like a baseline level of respect. And there is like a hierarchy. And so like, you know, respect is at the very bottom of like what everybody deserves and is decent.

395
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:36,000
Right? And so that, that's a shitty goal. And if you ask me, like, I don't, I don't think we should all as humans strive to be just the basic level of decent, right? We should strive to be more. And so veganism, vegetarianism, and, you know, whatever you want to call it helps lay the foundation for that to exist.

396
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:50,000
Because as long as we view animals as objects and commodities and resources, we're never going to be able to live in that society that actually represents the values that it says that it upholds.

397
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,000
Definitely and beautifully said.

398
01:08:53,000 --> 01:09:11,000
Yes. Yeah. I, what I meant is, you know, the definition of vegetarianism could have evolved to be, to become veganism. And, you know, this is a great segue to talking about the history of veganism.

399
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:29,000
And let me share this story. Maybe I should not say this, but I will tell it, tell this story anyway. I wanted to do an episode on the history of veganism. And I thought, okay, well, let's contact the vegan society.

400
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:42,000
They're, you know, well positioned to introduce me to someone who knows that the history of their organization, of their founding members. And I had so much trouble doing that.

401
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:59,000
Like they couldn't find anyone. And then they said, what about our head of communication? Would that make a good guest for talking about the history of the vegan society? And I thought, this is, this is weird. Like what's happening?

402
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:15,000
You should have like someone, a historian. I don't know. Like maybe even have a project to fund a museum about veganism, like establish that history and make it core to your mission.

403
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:21,000
Or maybe I'm reading too much into that anecdote.

404
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:27,000
So do you think

405
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:36,000
there is a lack of education into the history of veganism? So you mentioned Leslie Cross.

406
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:42,000
Yeah. Who is that? And is it important to know people like him?

407
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,000
The people who laid the foundation of veganism.

408
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:57,000
Before I, before I learned about who he is and his writings, I would have said, no, the history doesn't matter. Right. And, you know, I would have been so wrong.

409
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:06,000
Because once you understand who Leslie Cross is, once you read his writings, and once you really understand them,

410
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:17,000
when you look at the current state of the world, the current state of the vegan movement, and just the reflection of, you know, what society thinks veganism is,

411
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:21,000
it's clear that we need to go back there. Right.

412
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:28,000
You know, I can kind of maybe get a little bit conspiracy. I don't think I want to. We don't need to.

413
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:39,000
But like, you know, when the vegan society after, I think part of the history that is known is that,

414
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:46,000
so in 1944, Donald Watson founded the Vegan Society with a couple of other people.

415
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:51,000
And then from there, there was like a definition that was defined.

416
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:59,000
And it was something to do with all life. And then they had to revisit it. And then it took them seven years.

417
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:06,000
Leslie Cross was one of the influential people who was essentially tasked with defining.

418
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:12,000
And he was the one who wrote all of the writings. If you haven't read the writing, you have to.

419
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,000
It starts off with like, Man and Nature, I think, was the first one.

420
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:23,000
I actually have a link where I put like a good directory of all the writings.

421
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,000
So if you want that, you know, I can send it to you.

422
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:33,000
And then it goes into like the most important ones, I think, are veganism defined, the surge of freedom, the vegan story.

423
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,000
Like those perfectly paint the message. Right.

424
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:46,000
And so, you know, that definition held in 1951 when they when they defined it and they released it.

425
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,000
You know, I'll say it again, because it's important.

426
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,000
It's the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals. Right.

427
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:56,000
And this is like words from the 40s. So you don't have to use those words.

428
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:03,000
Something along the lines of like it's the ethical principle that humans should live without exploiting animals. Right.

429
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:12,000
And so whatever, you know, way you want to represent that, like, you know, when modern language, like, I think, you know, it's fair to do so.

430
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:18,000
And then he says again, because he under like, imagine taking seven years to think up all of this stuff.

431
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,000
Like, I haven't even been vegan for seven years and I'm already here.

432
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:30,000
So the amount of effort that they had to go into to writing all of this documentation to like go argue in every direction, how can we rip this apart more?

433
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:36,000
And so they didn't also just use the word exploitation as it was found in the dictionary.

434
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:45,000
They had to write their own more specific definition for it and other words that people understand fully what they were saying. Right.

435
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:51,000
So this is how much thought that they put into this work. Right.

436
01:13:51,000 --> 01:14:00,000
And as vegans, if we're just going to dismiss this and just think, oh, like Leslie Cross is a, you know, is irrelevant. Doesn't matter.

437
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:14,000
Like, you know, how could we say that, you know, we are not egotistical or that we actually care about the animals if we're and call ourselves vegans if we don't know this. Right.

438
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:23,000
And, you know, and when I first heard about Leslie Cross, I was actually just it was through one of the writings, The Surge of Freedom.

439
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:29,000
And when I was reading this, like everything just started like making sense to me. Right.

440
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:35,000
I didn't need to argue. I didn't need to refute it. It all just kind of like stuck.

441
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:45,000
And I and, you know, the way my mind works, I started realizing like, oh, man, like this is why I'm burning out. This is why I'm going into these debates that I don't need to go into.

442
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:51,000
Like, I'm not I don't know, even representing veganism properly. And I'm entertaining things that like I don't need to be entertaining.

443
01:14:51,000 --> 01:15:03,000
Like, why am I doing this? Right. And the first time, the very first time I was I got a DM from this anti vegan troll online.

444
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:09,000
And, you know, and I've gotten many of these messages and I've responded the same way to almost all of them.

445
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:16,000
And I'll respond something like, you know, like, oh, you know, I get the block attacks like, oh, like, you know, sorry, I don't want to answer.

446
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:21,000
You got this straight from the anti vegan playbook or something like, you know, like, oh, blah, blah.

447
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:27,000
And some of them will say like, you know, no, I actually want to know what your response is and blah, blah.

448
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:34,000
And, you know, and so I go back forth, I see, OK, maybe this person is a little bit open minded and I'll ask him one question.

449
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:45,000
It's like before we start our conversation, you have to agree with me that you understand that the definition of veganism is that humans should live without exploiting animals.

450
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:50,000
Right. And the amount of people that are like, oh, that's what veganism means.

451
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:58,000
Oh, and like they're actually smart enough to understand that their arguments aren't valid arguments against that definition.

452
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:11,000
And when I have like these people who are like literally like sending me these copy paste like you like you're saying, it all comes into the same place and able to realize themselves that their arguments don't actually hold up.

453
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:18,000
Right. That also means that like all of the excuses, the way that we're answering them.

454
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:23,000
Right. Is probably the reason that these other excuses are coming up in the first place.

455
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:38,000
Right. So it's important that we read Leslie Cross because then we'll understand the foundation, we'll understand what he actually like was thinking when he wrote this definition and and everything is covered and he talks about it all.

456
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:47,000
Right. And so somewhere like I think 10 years later, roughly now my timelines are getting a little bit skewed.

457
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:55,000
The Vegan Society went from it was a nonprofit, not for profit, and then it became a charity.

458
01:16:55,000 --> 01:17:07,000
So when it became a charity, now there was different dynamics involved and I think there must have been some internal like I don't know where to find this history to like I don't.

459
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:24,000
And I know in the 1970s, after Leslie Cross passed away, I think it was almost like right away. I don't think these are related maybe just more coincidence, but they actually became a corporation.

460
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:39,000
Right. And now the Vegan Society is a for profit organization. Right. And that just makes me question like okay so do you still uphold the same values as the original founders of the foundation.

461
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:51,000
Right. And when you find out it's a corporation now, they're actively profiting. I don't know how like my assumption is like from the labels like people have to pay to put the labels and I don't know how much they're paying.

462
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:59,000
And to sign up to be a part of the Vegan Society you know there's like a yearly fee and so I don't know how many people are signed up.

463
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:08,000
And it's interesting because around that time too, was when they started adding the environment and health to the definition so they change the definition.

464
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:23,000
Right. And why would they do that so that it could be more widely accepted so that they can be, you know, again kind of like the vegetarian movement, adding eggs and dairy and now you have this vegan movement compromising on their values and just completely

465
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:40,000
ignoring the victims and now including health and environment. Right. So this is why I think you know everybody should go and research who Leslie Cross is at least read those three writings, the vegan story, veganism defined and search of freedom.

466
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:59,000
And, you know, if you don't understand it read it again, and once it clicks for you, everything will make sense, everything will make sense and why we're here, why the movement is in the state that it's in, why people are going back to not being vegan, and all these other things and

467
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:13,000
something actually I could recommend to you. If you could, or if you can manage somehow, Leslie Cross's son is still alive. And I think he's like he's pretty old right now.

468
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:33,000
He did do a podcast with somebody I don't remember who was, and he was telling a story. And so he's been vegan since he was born, and he talks about like how, you know, he grew up being vegan and what it was like back then and if anybody is to know the history,

469
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:50,000
they would be him, and that would be your guy. And so, I don't know what kind of, you know, things you got to throw out to get that to happen, but maybe you can reach out some, some, some way you can find them but I'd be super excited to watch that.

470
01:19:50,000 --> 01:20:05,000
That's a challenge, and I'm ready to accept the challenge. Thank you for the suggestion and this is news breaking for me. I did not know that the vegan society was a for profit.

471
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,000
Yeah.

472
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:11,000
I was not hidden either like it's, it's yeah you can find that.

473
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:20,000
But still, I was under the assumption that it was a nonprofit since, you know, it's an association. It's.

474
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:39,000
And, and yeah I was going to ask you about that amendment to the definition of veganism. So, if you want the official definition of veganism, your instinct will be to go and look at the definition of the vegan society.

475
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:50,000
And there you find that veganism is also for the environment and for your health, and not at all something that is focused.

476
01:20:50,000 --> 01:21:10,000
Not to mention like, I have never asked a vegan to perfectly recite that definition and can do it right. So, even if the definition is complex, how the heck are we supposed to simplify what it, the movement is like this is a very simple movement is about justice like

477
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:27,000
it's not animal is not complex right, but our definition is so complex and it's, you know, leave so much space for like, you know, where do you draw the line for this what is possible and practicable and what is defined as, you know, cruelty or exploitation and why is this

478
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:43,000
like new food alternatives and stuff and like blah blah blah like, I mean, you know, and that's why, you know, it's to me like, I don't know it doesn't add up you know one plus one equals two, but here.

479
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:59,000
They're not adding up right and so I don't want to make any conclusions. I don't I don't know if the vegan society is compromised or not. I don't want to say that but you know I'm asking these questions and you know I still don't have all the answers.

480
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:13,000
Well, maybe I could share a piece of information that might give some answers. I was reading a book about philanthropy so since this is my day job you know fundraising.

481
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:33,000
And I was reading about the official classification of social causes in the philanthropic world.

482
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:43,000
And they make this official classification and animal protection is under the environment.

483
01:22:43,000 --> 01:23:00,000
There is a group they call it group seven, that is about social justice about rights human rights, political causes. It's not there. Animal Protection is really classified as an environmental cause.

484
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:10,000
So if you're a funder, and you're trying to fund, you know, a nonprofit dedicated to saving animals.

485
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:14,000
You're thinking about them as an environmental cause.

486
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:28,000
So maybe this is why, you know, so many animal protection organizations abandoned the ethical argument, and just focus on the environment.

487
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:41,000
I mean, that, that makes more sense that's more of a closer to one plus one equals two than you know what, what we currently have so that I could see the correlation there. Yeah.

488
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:58,000
Because, yeah, I mean, you're, you're now trying to, you know, get more money, get more funding, more donors, you know, I mean, even when you look at, you know, a via I think the story is pretty known right when they lost their funding.

489
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:26,000
It was related to an issue like this, right. And so, it was right around the time where they started removing health and environment from the messaging upon all their realizations and you know, one thing leads to another, we don't have to get down that story but, but now they lost, they've lost their funding and they're the only organization, I don't know, only but one of the only that focused purely and solely on the animals.

490
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:40,000
And, you know, it's, it's, it's such a tragedy to see that, like, when an organization sticks to their values, then they lose their funding because of that.

491
01:24:40,000 --> 01:25:03,000
Yeah, and there's also a poll to talk about health and the environment you know I, yeah, my podcast is exclusively about the ethical aspect of veganism. But then again, you know, I find myself, you know, with vegans contacting me or recommending guests that are in the health space or the environmental

492
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:14,000
space and yeah I feel it I feel that pressure of, you know, talk about something else and yeah, definitely.

493
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:34,000
I mean, we have so many already talking about health and environments and everything right and like, you know, it's it's flooded we need more of these conversations and and we need to inspire activists to become more active. Right. And I think this is how we do it.

494
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:47,000
It's showing people how simple, this is right if you haven't seen the new AV low chart. And you're listening to this and you haven't seen it like you must go look at it.

495
01:25:47,000 --> 01:26:07,000
I was one of the people involved in actually coming up with this new flow chart, and I was tasked with actually creating the design for it so and I'm going to be you know making, I did a speech in the summer that I'm uploading soon on just like teaching people how to be

496
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:24,000
more effective on the street with this type of outreach so it's shifted from like essentially just being questions like nine questions to being nine principles behind the question and explaining how to go through the conversation and flow that way.

497
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:37,000
So this is an example of a certain question that you can apply to that principle, so that we're able to help teach people even more behind the scenes why we came up with the questions. Right.

498
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:50,000
And we following this protocol or this this flow chart makes this process so simple. Right. Anybody can do it and it needs to be that simple so that we can actually get out there be effective.

499
01:26:50,000 --> 01:27:05,000
You know I think that's that's our responsibility to as much as it is anything else so you know, keep focusing on the activism, you know, I think, as, as the movement grows and as people start to see the value here.

500
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:10,000
I think that, you know, this, this platform is going to be awesome.

501
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:24,000
And as a reminder, all of what we talked about will be in the episodes notes so links to the flow chart. And to readings from Leslie cross.

502
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:29,000
All of that so I will also mention it in the introduction, but yeah.

503
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:35,000
So, Ben, did you want to add something before we stop the recording.

504
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:41,000
Yeah, I mean, there's always so much to talk about. So,

505
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:53,000
I think, like, going back to, you know, AI which is going to be, I think, the main thing I wanted to, or we wanted to talk about.

506
01:27:53,000 --> 01:28:11,000
I'm always looking for more people to help me with testing and pushing the edges of what the AI is capable of, and how it's answering. And so, if you're anybody out there is willing to work with me and help build some cool tools.

507
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:35,000
Some of the other tools that I'm working on are, I've essentially tried to recreate Leslie cross as a GPT so you can actually like talk to him so I've been gathering all this information and you can get into his brain and you know, you know, I've, I've, you know, been talking to him through that which has been pretty cool.

508
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:57,000
And I'm building an outreach helper so essentially one that's the opposite. So, you essentially have to pretend you're the troll and see if you can go through this outreach so like, it'll start, it has the, the knowledge of the AV flow chart and it kind of takes you through that

509
01:28:57,000 --> 01:29:15,000
and so, if you're wanting to learn about actually doing outreach on the street, you know, this is a good tool that will be out there. And, and yeah, I'm just, you know, always looking for ideas and looking for people to collaborate with and get this in front of people because this has been

510
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:38,000
really changing for me and this is what has been my passion side project over the winter here in Canada. So, just empowering activists, making this simple and just inspiring them to like want to do activism whether it's online or in person or however you want to do it I think

511
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:51,000
is an opportunity for us to be way more effective now by, you know, harnessing the intellectual capacity of AI and applying that to, to our outreach.

512
01:29:51,000 --> 01:30:10,000
I would love to have Leslie Cross as a special guest, AI Leslie Cross on the, on the show. That's a good idea. It would be fun, you know, to have him be voiced by some English gentlemen somewhere.

513
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:14,000
By the way, do I see a hockey stick behind you?

514
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:17,000
Yeah.

515
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:20,000
Typically Canadian.

516
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,000
Yeah, I grew up playing hockey.

517
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:30,000
Since I was six years old and it's my passion. So, I got my like hat.

518
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:33,000
I'm a Colorado Avalanche fan.

519
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,000
Nice.

520
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:44,000
So Ben, thank you so much. I'm looking forward to all of those AI, you know, getting being available.

521
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:55,000
And thank you so much for your work and for your great insight. I am so happy I took the initiative of inviting you on the show.

522
01:30:55,000 --> 01:31:00,000
We had such a pleasant conversation and of course you're welcome to come back anytime.

523
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:05,000
Yeah, this was great. A great conversation. I think we need to have more of these conversations.

524
01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:15,000
Thank you everyone for listening. I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage more people to take action.

525
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:42,000
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.

526
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,000
Thank you.