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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.

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Today, we are starting the new year strong, discussing the undercover reporting of Unparalleled

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Suffering.

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Unparalleled Suffering is a photographer, filmmaker and writer whose footage of animal

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abuse is widely spread.

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Your favorite vegan influencer, farm sanctuary or animal rights organization has most likely

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used his content at one point or another, since it is top notch quality and freely available

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for non-commercial use on unparalleledsuffering.org.

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Let me add two things before we get to the episode.

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First, we are protecting his identity.

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You will not know his name, which I don't know by the way, or see his picture.

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Being anonymous is essential to his work and I highly, highly respect that.

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And secondly, in this conversation we talked about slaughterhouses and Unparalleled Suffering

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forgot to mention something he investigated called custom slaughterhouses.

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Now you need to hear the crazy stories he shared about those.

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You will find them in the bonus episode I published at the same time as this episode.

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I felt like we should start the conversation by talking about the anonymity aspect of Unparalleled

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Suffering because you erase your presence from your initiative, from your project, from

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your platform.

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Why is it important to be absent, not to put your name out there?

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Is it hard to keep that anonymous and undercover and to erase your presence?

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Yeah, so I have to be anonymous as much as possible.

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It's pretty much impossible in this day and age to be absolutely perfect about it 24-7.

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Mistakes happen here and there.

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But I try to control it as best as I can.

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And well, I do a lot of undercover work, not all the time.

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It's not like my full-time jobs per se.

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So it was full-time as possible for several years in a row.

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But yeah, if people were to know my identity, there's a lot of stuff that I've covered

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in the past and intend to cover in the future that would just be absolutely impossible as

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far as even gaining access and getting permission to do certain things.

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So sometimes I could document something where I don't really have to have any kind of one-on-one

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conversation with someone and nobody has to hear my name or interact with me in any way.

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And in that kind of scenario, for example, if I just decided to attend a livestock auction,

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it doesn't really matter as much.

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But for when I document certain things, such as a very small family farm, for example,

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where I'm talking to the owner of the operation and I'm getting access to record very intimate

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things such as them killing animals and chopping up their body, if they were to know who I

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was, I would never be able to get permission to even be on their property to begin with.

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And not only that, but in certain cases, they would probably put something out there online,

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whether it was Facebook or Instagram or some kind of message board or chat, whatever else.

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Oh, hey, there's this guy.

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His name is blah, blah, blah.

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He looks like blah, blah, blah.

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He might try to come and record what you're doing and put it on his blah, blah, blah page.

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So that's just one example.

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But yeah, it's not worth taking the risk.

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It is very possible that even up to this day, I could be more transparent about who I am

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in terms of my name and what I look like and just things I do in my life, how people on

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their Instagram story, for example, just post random things that they're doing.

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It is possible that I could live that way and still be able to get away with a lot of

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this kind of stuff.

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But to me, it's just not worth the risk.

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And was there a second part to your question too that I didn't answer?

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I think the second part was about how do you go about it to erase your identity?

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Okay, yeah.

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I pretty much covered that, right?

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Yes.

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And maybe you should not go into the details of all that you do to cover up who you are.

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How do you feel about that, you know, being undercover?

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Because my first reaction when I heard your answer was, oh, this sounds exciting.

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This is like being a spy, but for a good cause.

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But do you feel sometimes stressed by having to do that?

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Yeah, to me, it's almost like a form of repression.

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And I try to be as free as possible of a person and, you know, not really be suppressing in

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any ways that unless it's something that I absolutely have to suppress, which this would

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be an example of that.

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But it's just the way you got to play the game.

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There's a lot of what I've done up to this day and will continue to do.

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You just can't do by being honest.

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Now when I do try to, when I do interact with some animal exploiters, I do try to integrate

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as much honesty as possible, but you know, there's a fine line to that.

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And hold on one sec, I kind of lost my train of thought, but it'll come back in a sec.

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Can you can you just say your question one more time and then I can get my train of thought

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back?

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Yes.

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So I was thinking how, you know, it was exciting.

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And then I was also wondering if it could be stressful at times.

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So the exciting part of it for sure is when I get to accomplish my goals, because some

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of this stuff is really difficult, you know, to figure out, you know, to form a game plan,

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to execute, and then obviously the emotional toll and so forth.

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But yeah, when I was a lot younger, I don't really do this anymore.

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But when I was a lot younger, I used to be kind of a big prankster.

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I would trick a lot of people.

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I mean, humans, humans generally are pretty gullible beings.

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And I would trick people all the time, be like, oh, gotcha.

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And yeah, at some point in time, I stopped doing that.

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And now I use those skills I have to, to act and to trick others for a good cause for animal

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rights.

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Back in the day, I could just make up a prank spontaneously and just go through with it

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and accomplish what I was after.

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But with this kind of thing, there's a whole lot of work that has to go into it.

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It's a lot less being spontaneous and it's a lot more building things up, building up,

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you know, stories and more tangible things and, you know, developing alternative personalities

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and so forth.

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And yeah, it's a lot.

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Of course, I'm not going to get into the details of that, but it's almost a whole another job

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in itself.

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But it is exciting to be able to pull things off in the way that I do and be able to show

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certain angles of what humans are doing to animals that nobody else is really covering

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or really has covered in the past.

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So it is nice to be able to, you know, provide unique forms of activism to the world.

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To do that in order to build this story about yourself that is convincing and in order to

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create relationships with the people you want to cover who are usually animal abusers, you

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need to look at them, you know, through more than this two dimensional view we often see

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represented online of animal abusers, like farmers are those horrible monsters who this

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and that.

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I understand the feeling behind it, but I also see that those people are more than what

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they do and that this psychologically, humanly, it's more complex than I guess the best, the

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person who put it best would be Dr. Crystal Heath.

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Maybe you know her and she mentioned how animal abusers are basically brainwashed by a cult,

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like cult members, and we need to see them like this.

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So how do you perceive animal abusers, those farmers that you meet?

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Do you feel that way that they are those monsters or do you tend more towards, you know, they're

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more like brainwashed cult members?

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For me it's more of an individual to individual basis.

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I don't think you can paint animal abusers and animal killers, etc. with a broad brush.

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So I mean, for example, I do think that I do concur with Crystal Heath when it comes

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for some.

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I do think some are, you know, just really brainwashed and they've had things normalized

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to them since they were probably infants and they can't see these things for what they

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truly are.

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But I think other people just decide to embrace becoming animal abusers on their own.

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I mean, for example, the last thing that, not the very last thing, but one of the last

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things that I documented was turkeys being killed on a small farm back in November, just

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shortly before Thanksgiving.

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And I asked the farmer, did you grow up on a farm?

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And a lot of the time, actually, probably most of the time people say yes, but sometimes

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that's not the case.

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And yeah, this guy just decided to embrace it on his own.

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I don't know what his upbringing was like, but I know he didn't grow up on a farm.

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So he decided to, you know, build a farm on his own and have chickens and pigs and cows

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and turkeys and so forth.

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And yeah, just learn all this from zero.

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And he, I was able to, you know, I was able to connect with him, not from an organic perspective

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of who I truly am, but you know, I acted like, you know, factory farming is the big, that's

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the real monster.

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And you know, this kind of thing is, this is the right way to do things.

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And I talked about how, you know, what he was doing was pretty much truly pasture raise

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and what's normally labeled pasture raise, like when you buy something at a grocery store

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is a total lie.

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And which there was a little bit of truth to that.

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I mean, his turkeys were for most of their life, most of their short life, actually living

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on pasture.

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Whereas when you buy something at a grocery store and it says pasture raise, that's actually

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not even how it truly is.

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But yeah, I mean, if I were to all of a sudden be like, you know, this is not cool, you don't

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need to be doing this to animals and so forth.

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You know, things could have gone really differently and he could have got really violent with

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me potentially.

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But yeah, I think for humans when it comes to everything, whether it's how we treat animals,

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how we treat other humans, how we treat the planet, et cetera, there's just like a wide

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variety of humans and, you know, different causes to their behavior.

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So yeah, I think there's actually a growing trend now to just growing your own food.

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And for some people, they consider breeding animals and fanning them up and then killing

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them akin to, you know, growing plants from putting seeds in the ground.

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So yeah, I don't know.

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I've definitely interacted with a wide variety of people and some are far worse than others.

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But the one thing that I think almost all of us share in common is we know right from

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wrong.

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And so I think a lot of people who do these types of things to animals, somewhere deep

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down, I think a lot of them do know that what they're doing is wrong and unnecessary.

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But they just don't care enough to change, especially since wider society approves of

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what they're doing.

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And not only just approves, but I think animal farmers are some of the most respected people

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in society.

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So whereas vegans and animal rights activists were on the opposite end of that.

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So yeah, hopefully, hopefully that was a decent answer to that question.

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Yes.

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And I get the same impression.

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So what how do you deal with the situation where things go wrong?

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Where your cover is blown up, where you get those violent reactions?

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How do you deal with that?

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Well, there haven't been that many times when my cover has been blown.

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And in fact, usually it's been something that I've done on purpose.

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For example, I documented a religious animal sacrifice in New York City for a number of

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years called Kapouros.

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And the first two years I did that, I was completely undercover.

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And I'm totally willing to say on your podcast what my whole cover story was, because this

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was a one time thing.

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It's not something I'm ever going to use again.

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So I don't mind sharing it.

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But yeah, I was I was gaining access to there's there's all kinds of locations all throughout

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the city where people openly torture chickens.

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They'll pick up the Cornish Cross chickens.

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They're the overly grown white ones that people tend to eat for their flesh that are usually

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killed when they're only 42 days old.

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I would estimate for Kapouros, most of the chickens that they're using for the Cornish

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Cross are generally probably anywhere from three to five weeks old.

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And they they'll in the vast majority of cases, they will first off, the chickens are kept

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in crates for days and days at a time without any food or water.

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They're not protected from from the weather, whether it's sometimes because this usually

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happens in September, September or October.

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So sometimes when Kapouros occurs, it's extremely hot outside.

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Other times it's extremely cold outside and also the rain, too.

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But anyway, these these chickens just just live in such degrading conditions.

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Actually even worse than where they're coming from the industrial farms and where they're

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coming from.

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But now they're packed even tighter and they have no protection.

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Whereas when they're living in those giant warehouses, they at least have some protection

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from the weather.

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But yeah, all of a sudden, when they do finally get to exit the crates, they're they're they're

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pulled up by their wings and they're swung around a minimum of two times, which is the

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the harshest way you can possibly hold a chicken.

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And and then after that, they're they get killed at a certain point, sometimes right

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afterwards.

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And sometimes there's a delay.

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And also, I should say, when they're living in those those tightly packed crates with

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other chickens, they're usually living amongst not only dead, but also decaying chickens.

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So it's a complete horror show.

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But anyway, when I decided to go there and document this, I didn't want to just doc.

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I didn't want to just take photos and videos of what was happening.

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I wanted to actually have conversations with people that were involved with this.

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And I wanted to go all over the city because they have so many locations where they do

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this.

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And so I was telling people that I was writing a book about freedom of religion.

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And I said that this would be this is the basically my case study.

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This is what I'm going to use to illustrate, you know, this is what I use for the theme

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of my book, the caporos, the caporos ritual.

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And I never told anyone that I was for what they were doing, but I also never told anyone

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that I was against what they were doing.

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I said I'm neutral about it.

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I also told them that I'm Jewish because this is a Jewish thing.

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Most Jewish dominations don't practice this.

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It's just the the the Orthodox and the ultra Orthodox.

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Actually, not even Orthodox.

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It's just the ultra Orthodox, I believe, who do this.

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And I identified as a reform Jew, which, by the way, is partially true.

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I mean, that is how I grew up.

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So back to what I was saying in the beginning of the podcast, where I try to be as honest

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with people as possible.

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So that is like a form of honesty that I was sharing.

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But yeah, anyway, when I told people when I told people my cover story, they were perfectly

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willing to let me not not all of them, but most of them were perfectly willing to let

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me document what they were doing.

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And if they if they weren't comfortable with it, I would say, oh, yeah, no problem.

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And I would just not I would I would just not point my camera at them.

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And I would just leave them alone.

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I would stop talking to them.

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I'll say I wanted to keep talking to me.

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And yeah, I gained a lot of access.

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I also I also told them that I was not just going to be documenting what they were doing,

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but I was also going to be documenting the protesters because there was a very strong,

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very big opposition to Kapouros at the time.

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That is not true nowadays.

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But at the time, there was a lot of vocal opposition.

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And they would tell me things about the Kapouros or about yeah, about the Kapouros protesters

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that were completely untrue.

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They would make up blanket statements such as every every female who protested has had

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an abortion and they would say all kinds of crazy stuff.

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So anyway, I kept that up for two years.

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It was amazing as far as the access that I gained.

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And then, you know, once I once I had all that documentation, I still wanted to go to

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the I still wanted to return to New York City on an annual basis and record what was happening.

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But because I had ample documentation already, I no longer felt it was necessary to to remain

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undercover, especially since this is just this is even though it's a big thing, it's

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a small world.

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It's a small bubble that I was accessing.

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This is Kapouros, whereas animal farming is like a vast thing.

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So the animal farming, I got to keep that cover going for pretty much my whole life.

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This it didn't matter as much.

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Plus, this can also be documented whether you have permission to or not, because a lot

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of this takes place on public streets and sidewalks.

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But yeah, so once I so year three when I went, I was openly against what they were doing.

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I was I was, you know, criticizing them openly.

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I was asking people to hold the chickens in a better way.

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And yeah, that's almost like a welfare perspective.

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But where it is a welfare perspective, but you're not going to change most 99.9 percent

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of these people, you're not going to change their mind.

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So at least if you can get someone to hold a chicken in a way that doesn't cause harm.

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I mean, you still are harming the chicken with what you're doing, but you're going

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to cause them significantly less harm if you hold them from like, you know, with their

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wings pinned to their body the way they're supposed to be.

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And you hold you put your hands underneath.

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That's going to cause drastically less suffering than holding them by up by their wings and

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swinging them around.

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So yeah, I would do that.

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Of course, I would try to get people to, you know, stop doing this and give me their chicken

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so I could help get that chicken to a sanctuary, which I did have a little bit of luck with

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a couple of chickens, but it wasn't someone necessarily just trying to be nice.

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It was one woman.

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I just walked away with her chicken because she actually let me show her how to hold the

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chicken.

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I was like, well, I'm going to show her how to hold the chicken and then I'm going to

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walk away with the chicken.

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The worst case scenario, I just have to give the chicken back.

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Best case scenario, this chicken gets to go to a sanctuary.

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So yeah, I walked away with the chicken and she didn't try to chase me or, you know, or

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get anyone else to go after me.

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So that was a good story.

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And then there was another woman who she was she was actively doing the ritual swinging

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a chicken around and she saw me taking photos of her or video for that matter.

293
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And she asked me not to do that.

294
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And I said to her, the only way I'm going to stop recording you doing this is if you

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if you put that chicken down and give them to me so I can take them, get them to a sanctuary.

296
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Now being honest, I don't know if that's actually how I worded it.

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But basically I told her that if I will stop recording if you give me the chicken and she

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did.

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So that chicken got to go to a sanctuary.

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I have no idea what happened to them.

301
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I was never not able to I wasn't able to find out those details.

302
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:35,160
But anyway, yeah, that was an example of being being going from undercover to not undercover,

303
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having my cover blown.

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And there were several there were several people that that noticed that like, wait,

305
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what the hell?

306
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That's not who I thought that was.

307
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There was one guy I can't remember what his name was or exactly what he was all about.

308
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But I remember we had some long conversations about Kapouros.

309
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And yeah, of course, he had totally bought into my cover story.

310
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I always I saw him those first two years.

311
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So we had long conversations those first two years.

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And he was around me when I was documenting stuff.

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And then and then the next the next year, he sees me being openly opposed to this.

314
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And he's like, what's going on?

315
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And I I I told him, like, you know, after seeing this numerous times, I actually feel

316
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now that it's completely wrong.

317
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And this is just pure evil.

318
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You don't need to be doing this.

319
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You can't you can't transfer your sins to a chicken, because that's what they that's

320
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what the people say.

321
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They say when you when you swing the chicken and you're reciting this prayer that you're

322
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reading on your cell phone, that your sins are going into this chicken.

323
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And you know, you've been absolved of all all sins and now you get the fresh start and

324
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now you can commit sins for the next year.

325
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And then you can do this again with the chickens again.

326
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So anyway, I was just telling him how I thought this was ridiculous.

327
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And he was telling me that I'm mansplaining, but in a Jewish sense, like I'm Jewish Jewish

328
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,440
planning or something.

329
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,640
It was so ridiculous.

330
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:11,640
But the people there I have to this day, I haven't I hadn't I haven't been physically

331
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,760
injured by any of them, but they can be very dangerous.

332
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:23,640
I have been in some very hostile, very scary situations with some of these people.

333
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,960
They are used to getting away with whatever they want, partially because the cops let

334
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,360
them get away with whatever they want, typically.

335
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:40,600
But yeah, besides that, there haven't been too many other there haven't been many other

336
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,160
situations I can really think of where my cover has been blown.

337
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:49,680
I've always been able to maintain that very well.

338
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,720
With that being said, I would like to say that a lot of people who have given me access

339
00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:03,200
to to to cover their their form of animal abuse have asked me if I'm a Pete if I'm a

340
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,080
if I'm with PETA.

341
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And I say I'm not PETA has never hired me to do anything.

342
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So it is true.

343
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,640
But it's just really funny to me because I can't remember when PETA started.

344
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I think it was the 70s or the 80s.

345
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,800
But obviously, they've been around for a long time.

346
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:27,520
And since their inception, tons of other organizations have popped up.

347
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,800
And obviously, there's like a lot of people just doing their own individual thing like

348
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,920
me.

349
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,720
So it's just funny that because you say no, you're not you're not affiliated with PETA

350
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,760
that, OK, you're you're you're safe.

351
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,160
You're safe for me to let into the space.

352
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:50,880
So it's amazing that people still haven't like caught on to like how broad the animal

353
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,040
protection movement, if you want to call it, that really is.

354
00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:00,240
So sorry, I was like a really long answer to your question.

355
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,580
But it was all very interesting.

356
00:28:02,580 --> 00:28:05,200
So thank you.

357
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:11,480
Before we pressed the recording and started the recording of the episode, we were talking

358
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:19,960
about independent media and the importance of being independent in covering issues.

359
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,040
And you are, you know, an independent journalist.

360
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:31,640
I know you describe yourself as a photograph, but I do see you as a journalist and a quality

361
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,900
journalist.

362
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:37,640
So why is it important to be independent?

363
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:43,080
And what are the struggles of being independent in this line of work?

364
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:52,480
I'd say it's important to be independent because I don't think for for the vast majority

365
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,920
of the kind of work that I've done so far, I don't think I really need other people,

366
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,960
you know, telling me about telling me how I should go about things.

367
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:11,600
I've been pretty successful in a sense thus far with, you know, completing my missions

368
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,920
and trying to being able to do what I'm striving to do.

369
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:25,600
I don't think anyone, you know, needs to have any control over me unless I am doing something

370
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,800
for another organization.

371
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:33,080
If they're hiring me to do something for them, then yeah, I mean, if they need me to, you

372
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:38,240
know, do something specific or go about something in a different way, then yeah, there's room

373
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,240
for discussing that.

374
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:49,960
But I like to one of the things that helps keep me going and continuing to do this work

375
00:29:49,960 --> 00:30:00,040
is getting to basically be my own boss and not coming into conflict and friction and

376
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:08,280
tension with other people trying to trying to interfere with what I'm doing.

377
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:18,160
And yeah, I see a lot with animal rights and other causes that people get heavily opinionated

378
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,280
and they think they know what's the best way.

379
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,120
They think they know what's right.

380
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:29,320
And I don't claim to know what's the best way or know what's right or what's most effective

381
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,480
or impactful or persuasive.

382
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,640
I honestly have no idea.

383
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,500
And I think more of us should admit that we don't have any idea because this is a very

384
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:42,120
experimental kind of thing that we're doing.

385
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,100
I think a lot of the parallels that people bring up, well, this worked on the civil rights

386
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:49,120
movement, so you got to do it this way.

387
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,760
I don't think a lot of that applies to animal rights.

388
00:30:51,760 --> 00:31:02,040
I mean, trying to gain progress for humans is a vastly different undertaking than trying

389
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,800
to gain progress for animals.

390
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:12,280
I mean, humans are animals, of course, but we look, we, or at least most of us, most

391
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,920
of wider society looks at animals through a completely different lens.

392
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,920
And although we can look at history and what's worked for certain causes and try to apply

393
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:31,760
that to our own struggles that we're dealing with to accomplish progress for animals, we

394
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,760
can try these things, but it doesn't mean that it's going to work.

395
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:44,400
We have to really think out of the box and get really experimental and stop acting like

396
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,840
we know what's best.

397
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:53,720
All of us are in a constant state of learning, or if we're not, we're stagnant and we need

398
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,000
to get back to the process of trying to learn.

399
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,240
So I think there's a lot of trial and error.

400
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,960
I've made plenty of mistakes.

401
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:13,200
I have had people try to tell me things in the past that I discarded and didn't take

402
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,880
seriously that in hindsight I should have taken more seriously, especially as it relates

403
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,680
to burnout and not being so tireless and pushing myself so hard and not getting sidetracked

404
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,040
from other important things in my life, such as being present in my relationship and so

405
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,080
forth.

406
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:39,080
But when I'm wrong about something, I admit it and I try to be better in the future.

407
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:47,500
As far as the struggles for being independent, I would say one is definitely the money.

408
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:58,200
If my work was under a broader organization, I'm assuming I would be getting paid for that,

409
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:05,000
and that would help me to stay afloat in general life aside from activism and it would also

410
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,320
help me to continue my activism work.

411
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,000
So with being independent, there's not much money in it.

412
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:30,440
I do have a Patreon, which did get near or even cross $800 a month back in 2019, I believe.

413
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,240
And then it kind of dwindled from there.

414
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,600
And right now it's just a little over $200, which I am grateful for.

415
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,120
I don't want to sound like I don't want people to get the wrong impression and think I'm

416
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,680
a brat and be like, oh, I'm only getting this much.

417
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,880
I'm grateful for any donation I get.

418
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,680
Obviously people don't have to donate to me and there's all kinds of great things out

419
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,680
there to donate.

420
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,240
So I'm very appreciative to everyone who donates.

421
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:59,280
But $200 can't carry you very far.

422
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,840
And when I give things to activists and when I do things for some organizations, I don't

423
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,200
actually even charge anything.

424
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,640
It's just like if you want to give me something, you can.

425
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:15,000
Here's the link to my donation page, but I don't ask for anything specific numbers wise

426
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,360
or tell anyone you have to give me anything.

427
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:26,800
And also sometimes I go a really long time without even helping any activists or organizations

428
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,400
out because I don't get any kind of requests for a long time.

429
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:38,120
And I think a lot of people even to this day still don't know about me and what I do.

430
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:44,920
And with my day job, my current day job, it just doesn't pay very much money.

431
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:52,720
Stress management is extremely important to me, keeping as low a stress as life as I practically

432
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:54,440
can.

433
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,280
So with that being said, when I had to do my last job search, I was looking for a job

434
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:05,160
that wouldn't cause me immense stress and something that would align with my values

435
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,520
and my interests.

436
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:12,320
And I did find such a job, but for one, it's not full time work, which I'm not necessarily

437
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:13,320
complaining about.

438
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,320
And two, it just doesn't pay very well.

439
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,400
But I'm still grateful that I have a job like that because I've never had that experience

440
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,200
with a job before.

441
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:32,200
So yeah, now I'm in a stage of trying to start something new, which I can't get into the

442
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,160
personal details of that, but something new that could potentially earn me a decent amount

443
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:47,160
of money and that is not going to be a passion of mine, but is related to my interests.

444
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:59,240
And that will definitely help me have more income than I can distribute to my animal

445
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:00,600
rights pursuits.

446
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:07,700
So I'm very much looking forward to that when that day comes, when I have more financial

447
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:14,040
freedom to get back to doing more activism more regularly.

448
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,840
And there's one more thing I wanted to say about that.

449
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,640
What was that?

450
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,520
Oh, yes.

451
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:32,600
So I am also working on developing the portfolio on my website and it's probably technically

452
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:40,680
good enough right now, but there's still so much more I can add and show the broader depth

453
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:41,840
of my work.

454
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,960
So once it gets to a point where I'm more pleased, I am going to start applying to more

455
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,800
organizations to be undercover investigators for them because I haven't done that in a

456
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:56,640
while, like really put my name out there and apply to different places.

457
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:03,960
So hopefully after I do that, I will have more organizations contacting me and wanting

458
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,760
to hire me for certain things and being able to just trust my judgment and know that they

459
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,980
don't really have to give me many directions.

460
00:37:13,980 --> 00:37:20,480
Just tell me what you want and I'll go try to do it for you.

461
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:27,000
And I will add the link in the episodes notes of your Patreon and please also visit the

462
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,000
website.

463
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,000
The website is wonderful.

464
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,280
I think it's unparalleled suffering that org.

465
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,280
Thank you.

466
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:35,280
Yes.

467
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,280
Thank you very much.

468
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:44,520
And the pictures, I haven't said that yet, but the pictures you take are just professional

469
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,160
quality level, just wonderful.

470
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:59,520
I'm not a photographer, not even amateur photographer, but they're truly beautiful to look at even

471
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:07,200
though the subject of the photography is a hard soul crushing one.

472
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,880
Yeah, I know.

473
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,040
I know exactly what you mean.

474
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:17,920
I feel the same, not trying to be self-boasting or anything, but I also get that feedback

475
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,320
from a lot of people like, oh, this is such a beautiful picture, but I don't mean it that

476
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:24,320
way.

477
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,160
I mean, it's a really good picture, but it's absolutely horrific what the picture and that's

478
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,120
exactly what I'm trying to go for.

479
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:39,160
I want the emotion.

480
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:48,120
I want to hit people with as much emotion as possible from the photographs and thought.

481
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:56,960
I want my photographs to be thought provoking and I also want people to be able to grasp

482
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,640
like the quality because I do try to do as high quality as possible.

483
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,640
It's not just like, oh, this is happening.

484
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:04,640
Let me take a picture of it.

485
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:13,760
I try to frame everything in a way and capture everything in a way as high quality as I can

486
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,800
possibly think of.

487
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,360
When I'm at shoots, there's tons of stuff going through my head for how I can best capture

488
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,360
this.

489
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:27,640
Also right now, most of my websites just photographs, but I have tons and tons of video of stuff

490
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:28,640
too.

491
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,600
I'm just trying to do one thing at a time.

492
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,680
I'm just going to get all the photos on the website first and then I'll start posting

493
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,760
more videos on there.

494
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,680
I want to get a little bit more experimental too with the kinds of things that I do.

495
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,320
I would like to start doing street interviews, not in the kind of like earthling it and Joey

496
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,760
Carpster on fashion, which I don't mean that it's an insult to them.

497
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:58,040
I think they do pretty good work, but mine, you won't obviously see me in the videos and

498
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,400
I'm going to try to have conversations with people and ask them kinds of things that you

499
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,160
don't hear in these other kinds of street interview videos because those videos kind

500
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,280
of get a little bit redundant.

501
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,120
I think they're good for people who aren't vegan and they're hearing these things for

502
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:18,440
the first time, but as a vegan who's already had these conversations with people and heard

503
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:27,520
other people have them a million times, I'm trying to come up with angles that pretty

504
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,880
much haven't been discussed yet.

505
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:36,720
So that'll be hopefully a new thing that I start doing kind of soon.

506
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:47,640
Or even people who, like you mentioned earthling it, he's never talking to religious leaders,

507
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:53,960
like the ones, the Jewish ultra-orthodox ones in New York.

508
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,440
So I want to hear them answer your questions.

509
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,680
So that would be a new angle for a starter.

510
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:03,680
Yeah.

511
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,560
And I think that's a great idea.

512
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:16,760
I actually did send earthling Ed a direct message many years ago and I told him he should

513
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,880
come out to Kapurus because not just to do like what you were just talking about, but

514
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:29,080
also to get his own little documentation and just let people know that this is happening

515
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,720
because he has, I have a very small platform.

516
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:34,400
He has a massive one.

517
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:42,440
I also sent a direct message to James Aspie many years ago too when he was more involved

518
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,720
with animal rights activism and I told him he should come out to Kapurus.

519
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:50,200
Not saying, oh, you better come out because you have a big following.

520
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,000
This is your moral responsibility.

521
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,120
But he had a lot of flexibility for where he went and what he did with his time.

522
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:03,680
So I wanted to make both of these gentlemen aware of something good that they could do

523
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,600
with their time.

524
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,880
And also I think that would also be really important to have conversations with people

525
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,320
like that, the ultra-orthodox and heredity population in New York City and elsewhere

526
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:24,320
possibly because they are a very growing, very large growing segment of the population.

527
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:25,680
They breed like crazy.

528
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:31,000
They pretty much try to have as many kids as possible and they've overtaken many parts

529
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,480
in New York City.

530
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:41,120
Some streets that used to have zero of them are now, now they're living in every single

531
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,080
house or just about every house.

532
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:56,880
And yeah, they're one of the most hardcore brainwashing segments of society that we have.

533
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,320
Their brainwashing is absolutely brutal.

534
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:07,000
And I think, and it's very hard to, not even just the adults, but even the children, even

535
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,800
by the time they're only like seven or eight years old or already severely brainwashed.

536
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:22,160
So it's really hard to penetrate them with facts about animals and diet and so forth.

537
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:28,800
But to me, I think it's worth having the conversation if you can and putting it out there for people

538
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:29,800
to see.

539
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:36,480
Plus it makes, I think it can sharpen our perspectives because I don't think people understand the

540
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,440
complexity of like changing the world for animals.

541
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:54,480
I mean, we're up against so much and if you're paying attention, you kind of see that what

542
00:43:54,480 --> 00:44:02,120
we're up against is just the complexity of it is basically limitless.

543
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Because as you learn more, you'll continue to have a broader perspective and you see

544
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:12,400
that these changes that we're after are just beyond difficult.

545
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:19,520
Difficult is a minuscule understatement for the reality that we're actually presented

546
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,280
with here.

547
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:29,260
And let me add an argument for talking to religious leaders.

548
00:44:29,260 --> 00:44:33,920
Most people on this planet will not listen to you.

549
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,280
They will listen to their rabbi.

550
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,680
They will listen to their imam.

551
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,000
They will listen to their priest.

552
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:46,760
Those religious leaders are the ones who give their moral stamp of approval on certain practices

553
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,720
and beliefs.

554
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:57,960
And veganism is not part of the stamp approved ideologies out there.

555
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:07,120
So better get them convinced so they can give their approval and spread the word on their

556
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,840
own.

557
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:15,800
Then address some random person on the street or some college kids who have no power and

558
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,080
no influence on anyone.

559
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:26,600
Yeah, I think that's an absolutely brilliant point because it's so hard to change anyone,

560
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:34,040
humans are generally speaking very stuck in their ways and very concrete with their thinking.

561
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:42,360
But if you are able to influence someone to change for the better, of course that's a

562
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:48,800
great thing, but in most cases that's not going to lead to much broader change.

563
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,560
It might literally just be that one person.

564
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:57,360
As a religious leader, like you pointed out, that could have a huge ripple effect.

565
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:06,360
Because as you said, people listen to those people and change their ways according to

566
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:11,560
the way their leaders change their ways in many cases.

567
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,920
That actually makes me think back about this whole Kapouros that I was talking about a

568
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,000
little bit ago.

569
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:31,120
I've never deliberately tried to engage with any of these leaders about Kapouros and why

570
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,800
it makes no sense and it's cruel and also the fact that there's an alternative to it.

571
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,880
If you are going to do the Kapouros custom, you don't have to swing a live animal around

572
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:40,880
and kill them.

573
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,440
There's an alternative form where you can actually swing money or coins around and donate

574
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:46,800
that to the poor.

575
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,920
It's seen as just as valid for the custom.

576
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,000
When I'm talking to people at Kapouros, I don't know who I'm talking to.

577
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,880
I may have talked to some religious leaders, but I typically don't ask them about their

578
00:46:58,880 --> 00:46:59,880
background.

579
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:09,800
In 2018, I believe it was, or it might have been 2019, I released a short documentary

580
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,240
called Robin Rescued from the Dead.

581
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:19,800
It's a story about this chicken who, when I was documenting Kapouros, I was near the

582
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:26,000
trash bags because the Kapouros people tell you that the chickens get donated to the poor.

583
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,760
In most cases, this isn't true.

584
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:34,520
They actually just get thrown in garbage bags and get hauled to landfills.

585
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:42,000
I was at the location where they have the most Kapouros use in killing.

586
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,360
I was there where it was just like the aftermath.

587
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,600
There's bodies on the ground, then most of the bodies are concealed in these garbage

588
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:50,600
bags.

589
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,960
There's just a huge amount of garbage bags full of chickens.

590
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,880
I was just standing by the garbage bags waiting for a trash truck, waiting for the sanitation

591
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:05,600
department to pull up and load them into the truck to take them to the landfill.

592
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,880
I noticed movement in one of the bags right beside me.

593
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,920
There was clearly a chicken in there that wasn't dead.

594
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,480
I notified a nearby activist who was standing just feet away from me.

595
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,520
I was recording.

596
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:29,440
She opened the bag and she pulls out this pathetic looking chicken with a cut to their

597
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:34,800
throat but they had missed the main artery.

598
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,800
The chicken was still alive.

599
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,840
At the time, I didn't have any hope for the chicken.

600
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,840
I thought they were going to die within minutes.

601
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:51,680
They were in that sealed garbage bag full of dead bodies for a half hour at bare minimum.

602
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:59,680
Long story short, the chicken did end up going with a sanctuary owner, getting some emergency

603
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,920
care and some emergency surgeries.

604
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:03,920
They did survive.

605
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,560
They're even still alive to this day.

606
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:15,600
For one, that was two minutes before the trash truck arrived.

607
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:21,120
They would have probably ended up dying by getting crushed in the trash truck.

608
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,600
That's one huge thing.

609
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:31,560
I don't know how this happened but a rabbi at one of these, they call it a Chabad, that's

610
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:42,720
what they call the synagogue setting for the ultra orthodox, he saw my documentary and

611
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:47,760
he reached out, I believe, to the sanctuary owner, Vanessa Dawson, who has a sanctuary

612
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,440
called Penelpy's Place.

613
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,700
She's who took in this chicken named Robin.

614
00:49:52,700 --> 00:50:00,680
She reached out and the rabbi said, I'm going to tell my whole congregation to not use chickens

615
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,240
anymore for Kampouros.

616
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:09,720
That is in the grand scheme of things, even in the grand scheme of things just for Kampouros,

617
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:13,640
set aside everything else, that is just a little drop in the bucket.

618
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,720
But it's still, if that really did happen, if he really, I know he said those things,

619
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:21,440
I know that email really happened, but if he really did follow through, because sometimes

620
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,680
people say things and then they end up not having the courage to actually do these things

621
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:30,420
and there was no follow up with the guy as far as I know, but as long as he had the courage

622
00:50:30,420 --> 00:50:36,480
to actually tell his congregation to not use chickens anymore and he maybe explained why,

623
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:42,520
then that's a really good impact that would have happened for my little documentary and

624
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:48,880
not just my documentary, but all the things that led up to the documentary being made.

625
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,360
What a beautiful story.

626
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:55,200
Thank you for sharing that truly.

627
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:03,800
I guess from all the stories out there, the ones of animals and the footage of them escaping,

628
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:10,400
going against the odds, just jumping out of the truck or finding their way out of the

629
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:17,920
ranch, those are the most touching to me because what are the chances of getting out of this

630
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:27,080
machine of death and still here you are safe and finding your way to humans who don't want

631
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:32,720
to kill you, who don't want to torture you or eat you and who actually want to care for

632
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:33,720
you.

633
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:38,960
Yeah, I'm always in awe of those stories.

634
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,840
I think they're the best out there.

635
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,720
I totally agree.

636
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:50,000
Not just that, but also another thing that's really powerful is what happens afterwards,

637
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:55,840
the transformation, the healing, because they come to these sanctuaries with so much damage,

638
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:02,640
physical damage, psychological damage, maybe personality issues because they have trust

639
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,640
issues and they still see humans as the enemy.

640
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:11,600
And then they see after a certain time that they're safe, they get enough care to heal

641
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:24,520
physically and many of them have, they display behavior that's indicative of PTSD, trauma,

642
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,680
and then you see them change.

643
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,200
And for me, I don't have much of that, I don't really have that experience because I don't

644
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:37,160
have a sanctuary, but I've heard it from other sanctuary owners, whether it's hearing these

645
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:42,920
stories in person or seeing their social media posts or listening to podcasts like yours.

646
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:52,960
And it's just absolutely amazing to see the radical change that animals can go through

647
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:59,920
with our help and in turn that can help heal us as well in varying degrees.

648
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:04,720
And like that chicken that I just mentioned, Robin, he clearly suffered, he clearly had

649
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:14,640
major PTSD and he had some behavior issues when he first came to the sanctuary, like

650
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:19,520
incessant pecking, for example, which is no fun for the person taking care of them.

651
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:24,000
But after a certain number of days or maybe it was like a week or two weeks tops, I don't

652
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,680
even think it took two weeks or maybe not even a whole week.

653
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,280
The chicken, Robin clearly knew that he was in a good place and he was safe and loved

654
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:38,880
and nothing like that was ever going to happen to him again.

655
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,880
So yeah, very, very moving stuff.

656
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:49,700
And that's something that I care about a lot incorporating into my work too, showing sanctuary

657
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:57,460
as a contrast, sanctuary, liberation, rescue, love as a contrast to the animal exploitation

658
00:53:57,460 --> 00:54:06,080
and abuse and killing because it's good to show how animals can be in different environments

659
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,600
and how we can have different relationships with them.

660
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,680
And it doesn't have to be the way it's always been.

661
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,920
We are flooded with choices on a daily basis.

662
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:24,080
I can be a radically different person tomorrow if I wanted to and so can everyone else.

663
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,680
We have the freedom to do that.

664
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:35,880
So yeah, I think anyway, sorry, I forget where that was going, but I think I said enough

665
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,000
in regards to that.

666
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:46,160
Well it's beautifully said and I'm happy because in preparation for this interview, I thought

667
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,360
what topics need to be covered.

668
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:57,080
And I found this section in your website where you list your focuses.

669
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:03,240
So basically what you want to, what your line of work is about.

670
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:07,360
And we covered lots of items on that list.

671
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,520
So the first one would be the humane myth.

672
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:18,200
And then the second one, state and country fairs, rodeos and other abusive entertainment

673
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,680
events is another one.

674
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,400
Zoos and aquariums.

675
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,000
Now aquariums is a tricky one.

676
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:38,800
And I did an episode on with the sanctuary owner behind Friends of Phillips.

677
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:48,760
And we discussed how it is much harder to develop a bond with aquatic life or even feel

678
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,160
compassion for their suffering.

679
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,880
And I get that all the time and all vegans get it too.

680
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,720
You don't even eat fish.

681
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:03,320
Fish should be the exception because they don't have feelings.

682
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,760
It's just a fish.

683
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:12,680
And it's already hard with land animals.

684
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:22,120
So the level of difficulty to just create that bond with or that connection with marine

685
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,200
life is just tremendously harder.

686
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:34,600
So how do you try to create that through your work?

687
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:45,880
Yeah, well, I'm all about promoting the potential to have bonds with animals like pigs and chickens

688
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,080
and cows and so forth.

689
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,320
Land animals who we can relate to more.

690
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:58,020
I've never, at least as far as I remember, I've never done anything to promote having

691
00:56:58,020 --> 00:57:04,160
bonds with aquatic animals, even though I know that it is possible in some circumstances.

692
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,440
Only not all circumstances.

693
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:12,360
But for me, it's more about just treating them fairly and compassionately and leaving

694
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:13,360
them alone.

695
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:23,920
And I think our circle of justice and fairness should include other animals, including aquatic

696
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,360
animals, whether there's the potential for bond or not.

697
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:33,720
So yeah, I've documented a lot of fish being sold in stores.

698
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,560
I've documented aquariums.

699
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:41,280
I've documented some fishing, nothing that comes close to commercial fishing.

700
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:48,920
But I've documented a lot of these youth fishing derbies where young children and sometimes

701
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:55,480
young teenagers are brought there and taught to fight if they don't already know, which

702
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:02,600
in many cases they don't already know how to pull these creatures out of the water and

703
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,240
let them suffocate and so forth.

704
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:13,240
And sometimes it is harder to capture the suffering of aquatic animals than it is for

705
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,360
animals like chickens and pigs.

706
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:17,840
But it can be done.

707
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:24,600
I've definitely done it many, many times over.

708
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:31,600
And I think it's not difficult to point out the wrongdoing of this.

709
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,000
Because we know that these things are unnecessary.

710
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:41,480
We don't need to take animals out of their wild habitats and ship them in a truck and

711
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:47,960
put them in a tiny little fish tank and use them as a decoration in our house or something

712
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:52,080
that's fun to look at every now and then.

713
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:57,360
We don't need to have hatcheries where we breed fish and then we release them into a

714
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:05,960
lake for people to trick with a worm or something on the end of the hook and then pull out of

715
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,520
where they're able to actually live.

716
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:15,580
So for me it's just about justice and fairness and preventing suffering and embracing change

717
00:59:15,580 --> 00:59:16,580
for the better.

718
00:59:16,580 --> 00:59:20,640
It's not about promoting a bond.

719
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,680
So I know with the one person you mentioned where you're talking about aquariums, I know

720
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,000
they have, I'm not very familiar with the work that they do, but I do know that they

721
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:36,880
have an aquatic sanctuary where they have rescued animals such as beta fishes and so

722
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,420
forth.

723
00:59:38,420 --> 00:59:43,720
And I'm sure they do have as much of a bond as you possibly can have with a creature like

724
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,820
that.

725
00:59:46,820 --> 00:59:51,340
So I think it's important for them to carry out that kind of work and show that perspective.

726
00:59:51,340 --> 00:59:53,760
But that's not what I do personally.

727
00:59:53,760 --> 01:00:04,320
I just try to point out the clear, obvious, blatant wrongdoing that humans are engaging

728
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:11,760
in and just basically requesting an end to this.

729
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:12,760
Yes.

730
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:13,760
Yes.

731
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,720
Let me go through the rest of the list.

732
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,400
Slaughterhouses and rendering plants.

733
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:28,280
Now I never set foot in a slaughterhouse.

734
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:37,040
I did visit a dairy farm, a dairy factory farm once, but never a slaughterhouse.

735
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,280
What is it like?

736
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:44,480
I don't have a general opinion about what it's like in a slaughterhouse.

737
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:48,360
I've had a lot of different experiences.

738
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,440
I've also just done some documenting outside of slaughterhouses where I've never seen what

739
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:53,440
the inside looks like.

740
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:59,180
I've never been in a major slaughterhouse, you know, like a Tyson slaughterhouse or anything

741
01:00:59,180 --> 01:01:00,180
like that.

742
01:01:00,180 --> 01:01:04,840
I've been in much smaller ones.

743
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:11,120
And I've even been to things where animals are not even killed and some of those things

744
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,360
are even worse than some of the slaughterhouses I've been to, like a pig wrestling event

745
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,800
that I went to once in Wisconsin.

746
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,520
That was the worst energy I've ever experienced.

747
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:26,040
The darkest energy I've ever experienced, like more so than any slaughterhouse I've been

748
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:27,040
in.

749
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:37,440
But yeah, I mean, they're obviously really depressing places and the animals are always

750
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:42,960
kept in horrendous conditions.

751
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:48,640
Just like when I've seen animals killed on farms, the animals are always killed in front

752
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,080
of each other.

753
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,840
So they can always see what's coming.

754
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:54,840
They can smell it.

755
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,320
They can hear it too.

756
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:05,920
There was only one slaughterhouse I've ever been to where I saw how it was operated and

757
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:11,740
the owner did make a deliberate effort to shield the animals from the other animals

758
01:02:11,740 --> 01:02:14,600
being killed before them.

759
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:20,840
With that being said, I haven't returned to that place, although I would like to in 2025

760
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,340
as soon as possible.

761
01:02:23,340 --> 01:02:25,200
So I don't know if that's still how it is.

762
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,520
I know the place was under construction at the time.

763
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,840
It was under construction, but they were still killing animals.

764
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:32,640
So I don't know if anything's changed there.

765
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:38,760
But I certainly wouldn't call it humane by any means, but I did at least appreciate the

766
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:44,440
effort of that guy to not expose the animals to how the animals were being killed before

767
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:48,280
them.

768
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,760
That should be a no-brainer.

769
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,320
Not that I approve of slaughterhouses even existing, but if they are going to exist,

770
01:02:56,320 --> 01:03:01,440
that's how they should all operate.

771
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,320
Humans whether it's a small farm or a small slaughterhouse or a big slaughterhouse, it's

772
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,840
really just always about convenience and efficiency for the humans.

773
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:17,520
It does detract from the convenience factor to not just let all the animals be killed

774
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,360
in front of each other.

775
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:29,120
But yeah, I mean, generally you see and you hear a lot of panic and terror in the animals.

776
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:35,920
Sometimes you see them trying to face the other way to not see what's going on.

777
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:42,600
You see a lot of huddling together, screaming, definitely a lot of fighting, fighting to

778
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:50,600
get free, trying to escape the cage or the enclosure, whatever they're in.

779
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:56,000
Generally fight to their last breath.

780
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,400
What I've seen in most cases is always just ultimate disregard.

781
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,600
It's never about trying to minimize the pain for the animals and trying to make things

782
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:07,520
as quick as possible.

783
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:12,040
There is one slaughterhouse in Stockton, California that anyone could see.

784
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:19,280
It's not open to the public per se where you can walk in, but they don't shield themselves

785
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:20,280
from public view.

786
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:44,640
They shackle the animals right next to the sidewalk.

787
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:51,440
You can't see the actual killing because the chickens start in that first room and then

788
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,800
they're led into another room and that's where the killing is going on.

789
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,440
They do have that blocked off.

790
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:05,280
But you can see enough from the sidewalk to see what these chickens are going through.

791
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:12,960
There were a couple of times I went there with my previous partner and we asked if we

792
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:19,720
could just have a chicken and the specific worker both times just handed us a chicken.

793
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:23,960
I know of other people, I've heard of someone else who lives out there in California.

794
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:25,840
I don't live in California.

795
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,600
I've heard of someone who lives out there in California and goes there from time to

796
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:37,600
time and they get a chicken as well.

797
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:42,920
I don't necessarily say it's an act of compassion for the worker to do that.

798
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:48,320
It's nice that they did that.

799
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:49,560
They don't have to do that.

800
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,920
There was no pressure.

801
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:59,600
It wasn't like, give us a chicken or else I'm going to put your face all over the internet.

802
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:00,600
We didn't do anything like that.

803
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:04,120
We just simply said can we have a chicken and he did it.

804
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:10,880
Most slaughterhouses, I don't think you would have any such luck.

805
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:12,400
That was a good experience.

806
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:13,920
I've had a sanctuary.

807
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:18,720
Once again, not trying to humane wash the place.

808
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:30,040
As far as transparency, generally the ones where they're the most transparent with letting

809
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:37,360
you see everything, including the killing, are the halal slaughterhouses.

810
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,160
I've had several halal slaughterhouses.

811
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:42,480
I did have to use a cover story.

812
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:46,120
I didn't say I was vegan.

813
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:53,680
With that being said, one of the halal slaughterhouses I went to, a vegan left the person a bad review

814
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,000
on Google reviews.

815
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,160
This vegan never actually visited the sanctuary.

816
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:04,280
There's a misconception out there that halal slaughter is worse than non-halal slaughter,

817
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:08,720
but I think it's all equally as bad.

818
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,440
Pretty much.

819
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:17,800
The slaughterhouse owner replied back to this guy's comment and said you can come visit

820
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:18,800
the slaughterhouse.

821
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,480
I'll let you see everything.

822
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,240
He was totally honest.

823
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:24,760
I even talked to the guy afterwards.

824
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:30,760
Sometimes there's a popular thing where farmers pretend that you can come out to their farm

825
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:35,000
and they're trying to sound like they know that what they're doing is good and they're

826
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,360
okay with you seeing it, but it's really a gotcha kind of thing.

827
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,160
It's not for real.

828
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,040
This guy actually was for real.

829
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:52,920
Whoever this vegan person was, they never actually took the person up on their offer.

830
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:58,900
One experience I want to talk about at a slaughterhouse, I pulled up to a slaughterhouse in Minnesota

831
01:07:58,900 --> 01:08:05,960
where they kill, it's 100% just chickens who have come from egg farms.

832
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:11,240
I think all or most of these chickens have lived their whole life in cages.

833
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:14,560
Chickens of that sort typically all come with broken bones.

834
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,200
They're just really fragile.

835
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:21,120
They're mangled and everything.

836
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,680
When you pull up to the slaughterhouse, it's on a public street.

837
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:26,520
It's in a very small town.

838
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:30,160
It's kind of similar in the way that I was just talking about the one in Stockton where

839
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,980
you can see them shackling from the sidewalk.

840
01:08:32,980 --> 01:08:37,800
This has that feature too where you can see the chickens being shackled from the sidewalk.

841
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,480
These guys are way rougher with the chickens.

842
01:08:41,480 --> 01:08:48,700
They would grab more chickens at a time, way more violently and shackle them more violently.

843
01:08:48,700 --> 01:08:53,000
When they noticed me with my camera, they actually closed the door whereas the one in

844
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,880
Stockton doesn't do that.

845
01:08:54,880 --> 01:09:02,880
Anyway, I put my drone in the air and they had a big rendering truck in the parking lot

846
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,160
and it's just really neatly organized.

847
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:11,560
It's a long trailer and it's very organized by body parts.

848
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:18,400
It's like a big mountain of this one body part, then the next body part, then the next.

849
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:24,800
Much to my surprise, as far as I know, I'm the first and only person still to this day

850
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:30,280
to ever document this, there were actually live chickens in the rendering truck on top

851
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:33,400
of the vast mountains of body parts.

852
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:34,400
Some were dead.

853
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:39,000
There were some whole chickens with feathers and everything that were dead, but there were

854
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:43,320
some that were still moving.

855
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:51,840
Unfortunately, I made the mistake of thinking I was recording and I wasn't recording, but

856
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,200
then I realized I wasn't actually recording and I started recording.

857
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,160
I still did get a little bit of footage of some of these live chickens moving around

858
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:02,160
in there.

859
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:13,000
I got a knock on the window from a woman who was the wife of the person who owned the slaughterhouse

860
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:19,720
and she was freaking out at me.

861
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:24,400
There's a lot of dark things happening at slaughterhouses that have still to this day

862
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:30,800
never been documented that we have absolutely no idea about.

863
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:39,640
That's why I'm a very strong proponent of doing investigations on slaughterhouses that

864
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:42,000
way too, like with drones.

865
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:47,280
Of course, a lot of the document that I'm doing, I'm not undercover.

866
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:48,280
This is an example.

867
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:53,200
I'm not going in and up, oh, I want to write a nice story about you for the paper.

868
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,360
Do you mind if I get some drone shots?

869
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,000
I'm just pulling up and I'm just putting a drone in there.

870
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:04,000
I don't give a shit what they think about me or how much they get pissed off.

871
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:08,680
And also, I found out afterwards, because I didn't even look this place up before I

872
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:10,680
went there, I just saw, oh, there's this place here.

873
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:15,920
I'm going to go see what they're up to, see what they're up to, the best of my ability.

874
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:21,120
And then I looked them up after that day and I found out that the Humane Society of the

875
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:27,200
United States had an actual investigator working in there several years before I went.

876
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:32,200
And it was one of the most disgusting undercover investigation videos I've ever seen.

877
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:40,000
They had a higher than average rate of boiling birds alive.

878
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:47,080
And it was a great investigation that the HSUS did, but it hasn't led to any change

879
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:48,600
at all.

880
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:55,000
And then PETA put something out about them like a year or two after I went there.

881
01:11:55,000 --> 01:12:00,600
And this was in relation to thousands of birds freezing in the trucks in the middle of the

882
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:01,840
winter.

883
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,760
So this place is just getting away with so much stuff.

884
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:08,640
And no matter what comes out about them, they don't change their ways.

885
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,640
They don't get penalized or anything.

886
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:14,120
And yeah, it's just really sad.

887
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:21,880
Yeah, I've had a lot of very different experiences at different kinds of slaughterhouses.

888
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,300
The ones that I've been invited in, people have generally been very friendly to me.

889
01:12:26,300 --> 01:12:30,400
And the ones when I show up uninvited and try to record with my drone or stand on a

890
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,640
sidewalk, there's a lot of hostility.

891
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:38,320
I had one slaughterhouse owner try to follow me home once.

892
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:43,200
He was driving behind me for a while and then I wasn't going to let him follow me all the

893
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:44,200
way.

894
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:47,360
So I got out of my car at a stop sign and I just went up to him and I was like recording

895
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:48,360
with my cell phone.

896
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:52,440
And then all these other cars are behind him and they're getting all aggravated and honking

897
01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:53,440
and stuff.

898
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:55,920
And he finally turns around.

899
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:07,120
So yeah, vast variety of experiences, but nothing to this day that's been way too bad

900
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:13,040
besides just visuals that I've had to take in.

901
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,240
And that's truly fascinating.

902
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:23,020
And going back to that point about being independent, you said you were the first getting that footage.

903
01:13:23,020 --> 01:13:24,020
And that's the thing.

904
01:13:24,020 --> 01:13:30,960
When you don't control people, when you give them a level of independence, they do first.

905
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:40,700
They come up with original ideas and they enact original methods of getting that footage

906
01:13:40,700 --> 01:13:43,160
or things like that.

907
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:48,200
So that's another argument for being independent.

908
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:55,200
And to complete that list, just as a reference for people to visit the website, religious

909
01:13:55,200 --> 01:14:04,120
animal sacrifice, we covered that in depth, fishing derbies, animal rights, and farmed

910
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:08,520
animal sanctuaries, of course.

911
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:13,840
So I highly recommend people to go and visit your website.

912
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,720
It's truly wonderful.

913
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:26,360
You get a real good sense of your level of professionalism and what it looks like to

914
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:34,880
do honest, inquisitive, and independent reporting work.

915
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:35,880
So yes.

916
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:36,880
Congratulations.

917
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:37,880
Thank you very much.

918
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:40,640
I want to say wonderful work.

919
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:41,640
Thank you so much.

920
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,800
Yeah, I really appreciate that.

921
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:50,880
And we didn't talk about it at all, but the fairs that I've been to to document, I've

922
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,560
documented tons and tons of fairs, county and state fairs.

923
01:14:53,560 --> 01:15:01,800
And those are things that you don't have to get permission to go in and document.

924
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:03,360
They're open to the public.

925
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:10,600
You only have to be undercover in the sense that you act at least neutral or like you're

926
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:12,400
okay with what's going on.

927
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:15,720
Because if you act like you're against it, then you're going to get ejected from the

928
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:16,720
fair.

929
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,020
But yeah, anyone can go see those things.

930
01:15:20,020 --> 01:15:22,160
Anyone can go document them.

931
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:23,600
Some of those things are free to enter.

932
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,000
Some you have to pay a little bit of money.

933
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:31,880
And I would put fairs, whether the county fairs or state fairs, I would put both those

934
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:36,440
towards the top of the worst things I've ever seen.

935
01:15:36,440 --> 01:15:43,680
The level of abuse and violence at these places is ineffable.

936
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:44,920
There's no words for it.

937
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:52,160
It's just truly unbelievable.

938
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:59,960
For example, next month in Pennsylvania, the PA Farm Show is coming around the corner and

939
01:15:59,960 --> 01:16:03,500
they have the, they call it the calf corner.

940
01:16:03,500 --> 01:16:11,080
They bring in 16, at least that's what they did in 2024, they bring in 16 pregnant cows

941
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:19,640
who have been destined to produce babies in front of an audience at this fair.

942
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:29,720
And they straight up lie to the public about, because they take the babies away from the

943
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:36,760
moms within 20 to 30 minutes, which is what they do on the actual farms too, except on

944
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,280
the actual farms, sometimes the calves don't even have 20 or 30 minutes.

945
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:46,800
Sometimes it's immediate if someone's around when the birth takes place.

946
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:50,900
But yeah, they take the babies away and they lie to the public about how the mothers have

947
01:16:50,900 --> 01:16:58,760
no maternal instincts and how the baby's better with us and that if the baby was left with

948
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:04,000
the mom, the mom might kill the baby or injure the baby and the lies just go on and on and

949
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:05,000
on.

950
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:10,840
And the dairy industry knows that more people are finding out now how dairy works.

951
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:17,360
It used to be the case that no one knew, not nobody, but mostly nobody knew that you had

952
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:25,620
impregnate a cow against her will so that she would have a baby.

953
01:17:25,620 --> 01:17:29,800
Then what would follow is they would produce milk.

954
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:34,440
So now that there's a lot more people like us telling the public that this is how dairy

955
01:17:34,440 --> 01:17:40,800
works, they have to level up their transparency and let people know that that's how it works

956
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:41,800
too.

957
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:48,640
But they have to humane wash it and act like it's all done kindly, benevolently, and it's

958
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:55,480
for the cow's own good to take them away from their mother.

959
01:17:55,480 --> 01:17:59,720
And this is becoming a popular thing at fairs.

960
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,560
It's not happening at the majority of fairs, but it's happening at a lot of them all over

961
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,320
the country.

962
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:06,600
It's completely disturbing.

963
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:08,080
So that's just one example.

964
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:14,400
And then the 4-H and FFA shows and the list goes on and on and on.

965
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:22,760
But if anyone's listening to this and they're interested in documenting any atrocities happening

966
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:29,440
to animals, I would definitely encourage them to start with things like fairs.

967
01:18:29,440 --> 01:18:33,960
Because most of us live near fairs.

968
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:38,600
They're very accessible and there's a wide variety of things happening to animals at

969
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:42,280
these places.

970
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:47,360
Most fairs have never really been covered from an animal rights perspective because

971
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:54,960
there's too many of them and there's not enough vegans or vegans who are documenting things.

972
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:59,560
And not that documenting something means that something's going to change, but it's still

973
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:07,120
good to put something out there and raise awareness about injustices that are taking

974
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:08,840
place in our backyards.

975
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:13,640
Yes, and I will personally take those words to heart.

976
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:20,840
I know in summer there are a few rodeo fairs around where I live.

977
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:27,840
So yes, I will definitely be thinking about what you just said and maybe listen back to

978
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:33,760
this episode to give me some courage to go and try to document.

979
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:37,280
And also, what do they call them?

980
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,000
Tips, I think.

981
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:49,480
If people have some information, insider information, or they want to make you aware of some particularly

982
01:19:49,480 --> 01:19:54,880
atrocious things going on somewhere, how can they reach you?

983
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:56,600
How can they message you?

984
01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:03,800
They could send me either a direct message on my Instagram, which is unparalleled underscore

985
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:05,040
suffering.

986
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:11,240
I do have a Facebook that you can technically message me on as well, but I rarely ever engage

987
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:12,400
with my Facebook.

988
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:16,200
I can go months in a row without even sharing anything to my Facebook.

989
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:20,960
I've almost completely lost interest in that app, which is nothing recent.

990
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,440
This has been going on for years.

991
01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:26,400
Sometimes I question if I should even still have it.

992
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:27,700
So that's one way.

993
01:20:27,700 --> 01:20:34,720
And then you can also email me at photographer at unparalleled suffering.org.

994
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:41,400
And again, please refer to the episode's notes for all of that.

995
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:42,400
And thank you.

996
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,080
Thank you again for all your great work.

997
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:50,800
Thank you for having taken the time to meet with me and answer my questions.

998
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:53,800
This was really appreciated.

999
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:55,080
Thank you for the opportunity.

1000
01:20:55,080 --> 01:21:02,720
And it's an honor to be featured on my favorite vegan podcast to date.

1001
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:03,880
Thank you.

1002
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:04,880
Thank you for that.

1003
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:07,200
Thank you everyone for listening.

1004
01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:12,080
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage

1005
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,520
more people to take action.

1006
01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:40,520
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.