Hello everyone, you are listening to the Vegan Report Podcast. My name is Ryan and today,
we address the free speech threats animal rights activists face every day. From social media
censorship and reputational harm to detention, we will explore the risks of talking for animals
in a world where animal exploitation is the norm. To discuss this topic, I have with me Dr.
Faraz, Harsini and Madeline Krasno two targets of free speech attacks. Dr. Faraz is the founder
and CEO of Allied Scholars for Animal Protection, ASAP, a non-profit which mentors and supports
animal advocates. He's also a cultivated meat bioprocessing senior scientist at the Good Food
Institute. Madeline is a returning guest of the show. She is the co-founder and executive director
of Justify, a non-profit dedicated to advancing science without human or animal suffering.
Justify provides a supportive space for current and former lab workers to share their stories
and aims to shine a light on the realities of animal research. I was thinking about free speech
in my own personal life and we discussed how I was born in North Africa and how in my origin
country, there is no free speech. There are blasphemy laws and that's the most important
point I think. There is no culture of free speech. You're not supposed to say certain things and
saying whatever you want is just not socially acceptable. I think that the experience of
emigrating to a country where you have that freedom gave me the expectation I feel like and
maybe expectation is the wrong word but I felt like a duty to use that right. Since
I gained that right, I should be using it and defending it since I know firsthand what it means
not to have it. As I was thinking about that, I realized, yeah, I launched a podcast. Maybe
that's a topic that is more important than I realized for me, for my personal life, just from
a subconscious level. But what about you? Did you ever think about free speech before having your
misadventure with it? Did you ever think about the value of free speech in society
and what it meant to live in a country, a democratic country where you have that right?
Who wants to answer the question first? I can start. It's interesting to hear your reflection
and to think about the fact that I honestly, I know that free speech came up in my education
but I don't think I spent a lot of time really thinking about what it means, how it plays out.
I didn't even necessarily think about what it meant when I felt that my free speech
rights were being violated when I was trying to talk about my experience working in the
primate lab. I think that my experience working in a primate lab, especially as someone who was
like very, I mean, I was a pretty shy individual. Public speaking was a terrifying thought to me.
I obeyed authority, I respected authority, I assumed that those in charge knew the most,
they're the ones to turn to. And all of this to say, I realized that being in that environment
sort of taught me to not so much talk even though in theory I should have been able to
to express concerns. And so after leaving the lab, after being done in that environment and
kind of starting to experience situations where I would see injustice taking place
and sort of starting to speak up about it, I got more confident and I started to just kind of
explore what this meant, this idea that I should be able to actually speak out. Because I think
even though it's like something that is supposed to be a right for us here in this country,
you know, there's still social norms and that can dictate a lot of what people do end up talking
about and how that speech is construed. Yeah, what you said really resonates with me.
I'm originally from Iran and I think my introduction to speaking up was when I was a part of
some of the protests and we saw how we got tear gassed and people got beaten up for just
saying words and I don't ever see how saying things with your mouth should lead to you losing your
life. And that goes to human rights, women having to wear hijab, me being gay and not even being
able to question it because not only I didn't have freedom of speech but also like internet was
filtered and then the question in religion was another thing and so many red lines that you
cannot even touch or say anything about and the consequences would be you literally going to jail
and losing your life over it. And so I think when I look at my life it's like you think about
how I plot it is like having nothing and then suddenly when you come to the US you're like,
oh this is amazing and then you realize that there are so many things wrong with this country as well
but I think I always keep in mind where I came from and where we are in the US or in the western
world at least which is certainly a lot better than perhaps Iran, Islamic countries, Africa.
But I also started to discover a lot of other problems even here. For instance,
my colleague got arrested over showing footage of factory farms in public property then you have
ag-gag laws that try to criminalize whistleblowers from just showing the cruelty in animal farms.
And then with my organization Allied Scholars for Animal Protection part of what we do is to just
be in universities and advocate for animals and then we see how close we get to just getting
canceled just because the administration doesn't like what we do. They constantly issue letters
just saying that your speech made students uncomfortable therefore you are canceled and
you're getting these warnings and I see that as someone who has lived the other side and I know how
it's like not to have free speech I'm just very worried about losing all these. I think we are
stepping back or going backwards in terms of free speech in this country and if we don't protect it
it's not given. It's really clear to me that free speech is not a given right it's something that
you have to fight for it and it's tough because you have to be ready to hear things that you don't
like that's a whole idea behind free speech to be open to things that you're not agreeing with
but I see that as a whole we are you know going in the wrong direction I think especially in
college campuses when it comes to animal testing and so many other things and even in the political
environment I think like the second that I don't agree with your political point of view then
suddenly your sexist, racist, homophobic all those labels that we just tell each other because we
are not willing to hear each other out and put each other in each other's shoes for a second
and be able to disagree in a civilized manner and what we do is we cancel, we censor information
and all that so but I hear you and I it's really interesting to me that you have the same experience
from Africa as well but I feel it when you don't have those rights and then you suddenly have
then you feel like you have that responsibility to use it which is why I keep telling my American
and you know European friends that you have this voice you have this freedom of speech and with all
its problems you still can't say anything you want about the president of the United States and
don't feel like you're gonna go to jail and I don't think people understand how great that is
you can't say anything about religion anything about really anything without like thinking that
you're gonna lose your life over it and so now that you have that freedom I think we do have that
responsibility to speak up for other beings who don't have that opportunity. Yes I think that we
should make a distinction between again the culture of free speech the more you know social
aspect of it and then the more you know establishment free speech you know so legal free speech so when
you talk about aga-gloss that's an attack on free speech from the institutions and then
with our examples of maybe attacks on free speech but from the the social side of it if we focus on
animal rights. Maddie? I mean I guess what comes to mind is is just the fact that you know we are
we are bombarded in every single way in society to use animals in in some way whether it's for
entertainment for resources for food for testing and that is so normalized and so the second that
you speak up and say hey like maybe maybe we need to rethink this it's it's suddenly an attack
it's it's viewed as as you are attacking the other person and don't get me wrong sometimes the way
people talk to each other can very much end up being an attack but I think that even if you're
kind of addressing it in a more you know neutral or personal matter like you know this is my
experience and this is what led me to you know to stop eating animals or whatever have you
it still becomes like personal to the other person or these other individuals the community
that's not sort of on board and then you know it's pretty quickly seen as sort of like you are
infringing on on my space on what I want to be doing even if what we're talking about has its
own victims so that's kind of what what I start to think about when I think about sort of
what happens when people start to start talking about the treatment of animals in our society
it's just it's it's so normalized to use them simply because we can and the very thought of
sort of changing that erupts this this defense because of that normalcy
Dr. Faraz anything
yeah I think when it comes to animals I remember when I was taking a biomedical ethics class and
then they were showing us the animal facility before that they told us you can't record and I
went to a public university so they said you have to turn off your phones no photography or anything
and then I raised my hand and I said why not and then they said we just don't want the you know
footage out I was like why not and then they said because you know some people get emotional or
whatever and I said well if you're a publicly funded university and we're doing all these things with
people's tax money isn't it their basic right to see what happens with their taxes and you know they
just you know shut me off and we went to animal facilities so and yeah I think the animal industry
whether it's food or animal experimentation you know they really use these laws trying to protect
themselves and by blocking free speech I mean Maddie's case is just a great example of how they
were censoring her specifically like no voice for you you cannot talk about this
but yeah I think you know I get laws and laws against animal testing like
showing the footage and recording these facilities just like clear example of how we're using
laws to to censor freedom of speech I guess. Yes Maddie yes I think you're
right that we are on the margins of things sometimes I speak out and I feel like I'm the crazy one
okay let's get to what happened to you so can you please bring us to that moment when
your free speech right was violated and I want to know you know from the beginning like how
did they started and did you expect that you're going to you know face that wall and what was
your reaction Dr. Faraz would you like to start this time? Oh sure I mean there's been so many
incidences I don't know which one to start with but the big one about animal rights and most recent
one I guess is an incident in Discovery Green in Houston which is a park that is open to public
it's a public park funded by you know taxpayer money but it's operated by private management
so that's why it was a little you know confusing for park management because they
and what we were doing we were basically showing doing a cube of truth so we were showing
standard practices standard and legal practices in animal farms in this public park and we were
not blocking the way we were not making any noise just silently and peacefully showing this footage
did not even approach by standards we just stood there and showed this footage and then we were
asked to live and we showed them the tax records literally the video is there we are showing them
this is the tax this is your own website saying that this is a public park and they called the
police and police asked us to leave and my colleague said what happens are you threatening to arrest me
what happens if I don't live and they kept saying that the park manager wants you to live you have
to live and we kept saying that you should you as a police officer are you asking us to live
because that's a different thing and they kept saying that you know no we are not threatening you
and we said if you threaten to arrest us we will live you're not here to get arrested but this is
a right to be here and the police said no we are not threatening you but the park manager asks you
to live so you have to live but they suddenly changed your mind and arrested my colleague and
threatened me with arrest as well if I didn't leave and but we were able to capture this on
three cameras because we were so ready and the charges against my colleague was they were dropped
but then we sued the park the park management city of houston and police
at houston so this is an ongoing case as we were speaking but that's one example but also another
annoying thing is really just being in a lot of universities especially like private universities
where we have to be so worried about talking about animal issues because they keep cancelling us
or try to cancel us by saying that you know you're being offensive somebody got upset and
knowing that they would make a difference they would discriminate against us just because the
administration doesn't like vegans or doesn't care about animals or whatever the thing is
but we know that if it comes to another group they may be more tolerant or think about the optics
but when it comes to animals or vegans and animal rights they use anything in their power to really
shut us shut us down this is really annoying there's a lot to go for
I have a few follow-up questions and Maddie don't hesitate to also ask your questions and
make your comments okay the first one you said and going back to that the big one the lawsuit with
the park staff in Houston yes who was the first person who came up to you and said go away
what you're doing right now is offensive just evacuate
who was that was it a park manager? The park has its own security people so the security asked us to
leave but this wasn't a one-time event we were asked to leave several times one-time police officer
or the tango handcuff to to my colleague and said if you don't leave I'm gonna arrest you right now
so it kept happening and we were just so frustrated which is why we decided to this time go with all
the documents record them and if they ask us to leave then we you know just leave and have it on the
record so we didn't really go to get arrested this time but unfortunately you know my colleague got
arrested but yeah it wasn't a one-time occurrence they kept asking us and we thought if we go prepared
and show them their own website that says it's a public park we have first amendment rights in
public property and yeah but you know the manager asked us to leave we refused and so they called
police and all that and case is actually being represented by University of Texas at Austin's
law school they have a clinic center for like religion religious freedom so they are representing
us as well as fire which is a big organization that protects free speech and and why did those
security people and and that policeman came up to you was it because of complaints glad you ask
because he said we just don't like what you're showing and he said you know basically we are
not against your cause we just don't like what you're showing and he said it's not like i'm not
like against i don't he said something like that i'm not against free speech i just don't like what
you're showing i was like bro that's not how it works that's something that we say in Iran like
you have freedom of speech you can use it but you may lose your life of various so but it sounds
like um madison one of the things that they kept trying to say is like you know there's other avenues
like you don't have to be on our social media write an op-ed well i did write an op-ed and it
actually was published in madison and made its way around which was great but it was just like
you don't get to choose how i how i you know use my right to to expressing myself that's not how
this works exactly they were very specific about we don't like the content and we don't like the
masks they were just like you and the mask is like the you know most neutral mask i was like
have you been in a halloween party or something but uh uh yeah clearly they were like discriminating
against the content um and uh uh yeah that's uh that's a big no and then when you mentioned the
universities you know in my mind the university is where you know it's the bastion of free speech
that's where you practice your free speech right you know you bring into the limits you just explore
intellectually some very offensive stuff you know that's the time that's the institution for that
and yet you you went there and you find this hostile audience and not necessarily the students
but the institution itself the administrators um so has university changed or are we just a
special case you know the animal rights uh cause yeah um i'm not sure i think i can only speak to
animal rights um and i think it has a lot to do with universities some universities are better some
or worse uh fire this organization actually ranks universities based on free speech but i think it has
something to do with how they have a certain point of view and anything outside of that box
would be shut down um so it's probably more than animal rights and that's just one of them
anymore i just tend to be always outside of the box no matter because most people are
against the agency it's always access of the box of everybody um but yeah some universities are
great and some are horrible like you know harvard is notorious for um you know lack of free speech and
um yeah and i think there is that and then their regulations and uh framework how student
organizations can function it's so vague um and the laws are written such that it's not
objective it's literally it depends on the guys who's like applying these rules and they can
selectively decide that they can apply to you and not not to someone else crazy the other thing is
that universities you know when i think of them i think of the left and i feel like
i feel like they should be more receptive to the vegan message than than the right um okay maddie
you're the expert in that field you're the one who had you know this huge lawsuit thing with
related to university so tell us about your story of um attack on your free speech right
yeah so um so i studied as an undergrad at the university of wisconsin madison
i graduated in 2013 uh so over a decade ago now um and when i was there i was studying zoology and
child development and i had decided to um apply to be a student caretaker at one of the primate
labs on campus because i was passionate about primate conservation and i had the stream of
of going and working alongside jayden goodall or you know doing work similar to to what she did and
you know i i knew very little about animal testing at the time i mean i i think one of the reasons is
that you know social media was was not very big back then there wasn't like the information wasn't
even as accessible as it is now um and and even so i think it exists a lot in silo so that's like
a whole other issue but um you know that being said i kind of you know i had heard bits and pieces
but it was mostly like what what is taking place is necessary the animals are treated humanely um
the the individual who taught a course on um primates animal behavior the primates was actually
the the director of the lab that i went on to work in and even in that class i feel like it just
built up my sort of admiration for primates with without giving me true insight into an actual
laboratory environment which is why i feel like i i went in wide-eyed and and passionate and excited
and quickly you know felt my soul deteriorated um so you know i ended up working this part-time
student role for for two years my last two years at school uh 2011 to 2013 um i was helping take
care of 500 plus monkeys mostly rhesus macaques um and some of the cinemalias macaques and um that
experience was severely traumatic um but because i was like so young at the time i think i and
honestly not not well aware of of mental health like and just what that looks like what um i don't
know like what what happens to you when you're experiencing something traumatic i mean i had
i'd come from i guess like a pretty privileged upbringing and stuff and i hadn't you know experienced
much of anything that would be i guess considered traumatic before then and i loved animals um i
was still at the time eating them you know participating in things that now i i would not
but i you know i didn't know i i knew so little about the way that animals are treated in in our
society and so this was very much an awakening in multiple ways not just to like how we treat
animals but also what the body does to protect itself in situations that are traumatic and in my
case i i would dissociate a lot i um still to this day don't remember a lot of what happened
and i you know these i guess are protective mechanisms and i was later diagnosed with PTSD
it all kind of came together but at the time it was just like two different lives for me my life
that was like in the lab and then the rest of my college experience um being in the lab i you know it
it was it became pretty clear that like you kind of just respect um those in charge they're the ones
who know best i you know i didn't i didn't know best something might feel icky or not i don't know
sit right but i just you know i was this like young impressionable person who thought like this is a
really good step towards this career and primate conservation and and therefore you know just don't
rock the boat um i also just like you know there's this sense that don't talk about it don't don't
bring up issues don't sound too much like an animal activist which i wasn't at the time but you know
clearly um that changed so um after my time in the lab i you know it ended because i graduated and
from there i knew i definitely wanted to to not have anything to do with animals being tested on
um i decided i wanted to be in like sanctuary based work so a little different than conservation but
um that's sort of what the path that i took and throughout that path and and that journey
i eventually started connecting with individuals who had um also worked in labs i also just was kind
of meeting some people who felt safe like safe to to talk about my experiences with and eventually
that led me to starting to be like i kind of am ready to like publicly share some of what this
experience was like and so you know fast forward to years later when i started to kind of take to
mostly instagram and facebook and was sharing some of my like recollections of my time in the lab as
well as commenting on the university of wisconsin madison social media um and saying like i worked in
one of their primate labs and like this was my experience or relating like what they posted
about to the plight of the animals in their labs um and i would also tag them in posts i created
it quickly like i mean really quickly they started untagging themselves from my posts
which like they're a public university um as uh dr foraz mentioned like they get you know
taxpayer dollars right um especially for this research they have been doing research on
primates for i believe 92 years is what we had recently looked up um long history i mean harry
harlow the infamous harry harlow who was you know taking baby monkeys away from their moms and
putting them on wire moms like this was the lab i worked in only i mean he had long past but it's
like their history is is infamous for this um depending on who you ask they some they seem to
still celebrate him um anyway i they're untagging me and then i noticed that they're starting to
delete comments and so at the time i had gone to a friend um christopher barry who was working at
the animal legal defense fund um this animal law group uh he is now with the non-human animal rights
project non-human rights project um so i had gone to him and i was like is this something that
they're allowed to do um you know like are they because i didn't know i i really wasn't aware of
what you know that i actually didn't know this whole taxpayer thing i just knew that i was being
deleted they were untagging themselves and that was annoying like i was irritated so anyway he
was the one who was like they're a public university you know this doesn't seem right brought it to
animal legal defense fund and and they were able to be like yeah like this is a free speech
lawsuit like we can we can take them on for this um and so i was like oh cool that sounds great um
you know that's the quick version i was also terrified and sick to my stomach and you know
nervous about the whole thing because this is my alma mater and you know i had a great education
i learned a lot there they very much shaped who i am and i don't you know as a university there's
there's so much good there but that doesn't mean that i am not allowed to criticize some of what
is going on there and what needs to change and so you know i'm doing this because i also believe
in this university and believe that they can do better anyway we ended up um filing that lawsuit
back in 2021 i believe early 2021 it is well let me let me pause for a second because there are some
other important pieces to this when we filed the lawsuit they stopped they stopped censoring me and
they had admitted to censoring me as well but a key piece of this is that we noticed something that
i guess is like it wasn't a personal targeting but it's something that's important to talk about
because we we discovered they were using blocked word lists so they were using um
you know on instagram and on facebook you can make a list of words that like if someone types this
word like primate into a comment they will see like you yourself who typed it you see your comment
you see your comment and the university sees your comment but the public doesn't so what ended up
happening is we discovered that like even though they had stopped censoring me as part of the lawsuit
that was ongoing i was still having some comments that weren't showing up and i was like why is this
happening this doesn't make sense but it was this blocked word list that was not only effectively
censoring me but it's effectively censoring anyone who wants to talk about these issues because the
list was made up almost entirely of words related to animal testing so this was wild um and you know
a whole other set of kind of free speech violation because this is this is viewpoint targeting i mean
clearly they were trying to they are trying to minimize the discussion around um animal testing
that is against it so um this lawsuit is actually still going on it was initially ruled against us um
i you know all i can say about that is that i just i feel like this industry is powerful and even
even as obvious as as something like this um it's still you know they still ruled against us
we appealed it and we're waiting to hear the results of that appeal and what's important to
keep in mind about that appeal is that it comes after a different lawsuit that i was a part of
where we sued the national institute of health um for similar uh viewpoint discrimination they
were using these blocked word lists to again do the same thing um stop animal advocates from
basically trying to talk about the vivisection that they're very much funding in this country
and that was ruled against us in lower courts and then we appealed and we won and so what's
important here is you know we were assuming that madison would would come back and and give us a
ruling especially based on that um the the win with the NIH and um it hasn't come yet so tbd we
continue to wait um but yeah that was kind of like the whole journey up until now um is the fact that
these taxpayer dollars our money is going towards this research and yet you know the national institute
of health itself the one funding most of this was trying to suppress this conversation not to
mention you know my alma mater whose history is so deep in this research and and the irony of it
because anyone who knows the university of wisconsin madison knows that sifting and winnowing is one
of their like phrases um and for those of you who don't know what sifting and winnowing means it's
it's like the the academic pursuit of the truth um so you know they're a school that likes to talk
a lot about free speech um but again as dr fraz said it's kind of selective right like you know
we can we can support free speech but only along these lines and again that's just that's not how
it works so how how orwellian i mean i think that harvard which was ranked as worst university in terms
of free speech uh by uh fire i think their um their slogan or what do we call that that latin phrase
uh for them is veritas which is again you know the truth um seeking the truth okay so we have
the nih we have universities and then we also have park managers and um policemen um all of them
threatening in some way our free speech rights as animal rights activists what is that is that
the conspiracy uh is it the culture um how is it so systematic i mean i think you can just
you know follow the money right as as always um uh culture is a part of it um i think when you
think about animal testing there is a huge culture you're talking about um it's a very complex issue
you have professors who are pretty old you know um and that's literally the only thing they know
is to do animal testing and they've spent 50 years of their lives at least doing that thing that's
the only thing they know they set up the lab that way they just don't want to think out of the buck
so that's one problem then for them to publish which is really what brings money to their lab
they have to show that there is code and code clinical relevance so they do animal testing
even if they don't really think it's important then you have all these journals and NIH and FDA
that require like animal testing where it's not necessary and all this whole big you know interconnected
mess is extremely profitable for places that breed animals or you know for for animal testing so
there's the whole thing um which you know when when then when you have money involved then they can
you know lobby and influence the laws and cultures and everything and prevent the truth to get out
um the medi probably knows better but there is like a website it's called uh it's like equivalent
of animal agricultural alliance like biomedical something what is it called they yeah there's
two of them i think you're talking about the foundation for biomedical research and then
understanding animal research yeah yeah yeah it's like animal agricultural alliance they just like
promote animal testing and all that but yeah another thing you can think about is cultivated meat
for instance because i work on that it's not directly maybe free speech but in my head it comes
pretty close to it because they're trying to not just ban consumption of it but doing research so
they're banning universities to do research on cultivated meat which it's and and there is no
substantial like reason there is no like it's it's it's like a safety issue it's not that it's just
they don't they don't even say what it is um so yeah again you know animal farming is extremely
profitable you know that cultivated means so small it's not even profitable but like it's enough
for them to freak out and try to do to block it as best as they can right um and you track it it's
the same thing as trying to ban plant-based foods to you know label uh their products as uh
plant-based components to label products as like you know plant-based milk or meat and all that so
it's the same game in different places and obviously it's like there's a lot of money there is
infrastructure that nobody wants to change um but yeah so we do we do have a very hard
battle in front of us which is why it's so extremely important for every person listening
to this to use their voice your you know their resources whether it's money that they can donate
whether it's their time that they can volunteer whether it's using their freedom you know just
talk you have this voice box and um you know you can talk to others you can talk to your friends and
family and if you are a college students do something slick it's on all of us to do something
it's like as Maddie said it's like animal operation is the biggest form of operation of all time in
terms of scale in terms of magnitude when you think about animal testing it's pure torture it is pure
torture you're just like people don't even understand that these animals are injected with things are
burned um I always say think about somebody who has cancer and how much they suffer just imagine
giving all these cancer cells on a regular basis to thousands of mice for one single experiment
to cure cancer in mice um and this and without painkillers right so these animals are always
living in with chronic diseases there is a whole like knock knock out or knock down animals where
you genetically manipulate them so from birth they have genetic diseases and are suffering like
constant pain um and can you just imagine for a second imagine if you're a mouse and somebody
with the weight and body size of I don't know 1000 times of you grabs you and tries to like
you know gets your blood and drain your blood and take samples from you even if they don't actively
harm you you're just like freaking out just imagine if somebody that much bigger than you just grabbed
you and you don't know what's happening to you you think they're gonna kill you just the mental
stress being isolated all of it it's pure torture um and that's why I just think whoever is listening
to this please do something like we cannot win this if we are shy if we are not doing our best
that's a very interesting point you're bringing up because we can talk about exterior forces
trying to censor us but we can also be censoring ourselves you know um Maddie you've said that
lots of times not wanting to rock the boat um so basically silencing ourselves um not wanting to
also feel uncomfortable you know sharing the truth about things um how do we get over this how we
could we get over this shyness um should we just go and watch dominion uh once a week to remind
ourselves of uh you know what we're fighting for or against um how do we go how do we become
comfortable um speaking up for in behalf of animals Maddie do you want to go okay like yeah I
I mean I think so I think okay I have a few thoughts on this um because I think that
it's important to also acknowledge that the issues in like with how we treat animals um
um sort of like the different industries like even though there's similarities there's also differences
in terms of I think sort of how you go about um changing them and and how to actually advocate
more successfully I mean it's like there's nothing proven right like we can't we haven't had like this
grand success where all of a sudden we've you know people are no longer slaughtering pigs
like that that hasn't happened um you know sometimes labs are are closed down it's very rare but like
sometimes an experiment is stopped but I think what I'm what is coming to mind for me is that
you know I especially with animal experimentation which is where my background is even though I
don't come from the the testing side of things I come from the caregiving side of things um
um through you know through my journey of speaking out and and creating this organization justify
I am continuing to learn um the scale to which this industry operates and Dr. Farah has kind of
talked a little bit about it in the sense that um you know there's there's money that's that's so
intertwined in this like there's this publisher Paris bias like there's researchers who have
been doing this forever and therefore you know humans are very uh we look we look we like uh
to do the same thing like we're kind of creatures of habit um we like to do what we're comfortable
with and so I think you know we have to keep these things in mind we have to keep in mind that it is
true that animal experimentation in our history has resulted in things that have radically changed
the existence um positively for humans does that mean it was justified I mean we could go down a
whole rabbit hole there does that mean that what we're doing now is justified um so I think these
things need to be kept in mind when we are talking about an industry like the animal
experimentation industry because humans have this tendency to want things to be black and white
and good and bad you know I and again I think uh Dr. Farah as you kind of alluded to this at the way
beginning of this conversation where it's like someone says one thing and now you are labeled
as this um and I see that a lot with the animal experimentation industry um and especially with
activists it's like you worked in a lab so therefore you're a bad person um you know I I worked in a
lab I've been told that I deserve PTSD that I should go die and this is like even since dedicating
my life to trying to change this so you know my point here is that like we have to have an
understanding of the complexities of these systems in order to go about changing them um and and
unfortunately it's it's not enough to just say look at how badly these animals are suffering um
that that is definitely a strong piece of it I mean that's that's where my heart is um but I know
that that's that's not enough for everyone especially because when you can't personally
experience it yourself when you're not the one seeing the animals in this in this lab every
single day and thinking about them when you leave and when you go to sleep and when you're dreaming
it's it's harder to to be thinking about them out of sight out of mind right and oh my gosh
the propaganda around the labs is is so great right we have all of these findings and we're
we're curing diseases are we so um I just I I think these things are really important um and I
think my point here is that the more we can connect with other individuals who have a really good
understanding of how these things work um I think the more powerful our voices can be um and I say
this again as someone who came from the animal care side of things so I am continuing to meet with
people who actually in the in the we're in the industry but on a totally different side of
things the the research right and I'm learning that perspective and why you know that has continued
to be the norm and and how we need to to change things you know in terms of people being consistently
feeling like you know this is the career I want and I have to do this in order to do that um or
else I have to give up on this career like how do we keep compassionate people in the field of science
and not make them traumatize themselves and and cause suffering to others we need to be able to
do that and we need to understand how this all works and so I guess my my long-winded point here
is that um it's I think part of it is is is doing our own research and talking to others who are
who are all kind of working towards the same thing so that we're not operating sort of in our
own silos right of um you know trying to tackle a very complicated industry that is still doing a
good job of justifying its existence but what about you know on a smaller scale you know like
witnessing animal abuse in in the streets are having an uncomfortable conversation with a family
member or with a work colleague I mean I also understand the consequences of speaking up even
from a you know a small scale um like yeah the social yes going back to that social price that
you pay you know I launched a podcast about animal rights I say things that most people
will not agree with um that some people will even find offensive but this podcast I don't hide it
you know if an employer or a client looks me up online they will find that I am the host of this
podcast and they can listen to every one of the episodes and how I spoke up against animal abuse
I understand that it's a risk I understand that I might lose some job opportunities or
you know professional opportunities from doing that very much possible
yet I still do it you know I still feel inspired to speak up I still think it's important and that
the risks are worth you know going forward with my opinions and what I and my beliefs and my
convictions okay what do you make of that I really admire your courage and I think we just need
more people like you at some point we have to be clear to ourselves that we have a limited time um
in our lives and how many years of our lives do we want to go about without speaking up with
censoring ourselves like it goes back to what you were saying about at some point we start
censoring ourselves and we are just so worried about being judgmental and being called judgmental
and you know I think the entire society doesn't want us to speak up and their best tool honestly
I think their best weapon and way that they have to silence us is to make us feel so embarrassed
and ashamed of speaking up that we don't speak up at all and I think that animal oppression is the
only form of social justice issues that we are not the victim and it makes it incredibly hard to
speak up because you know we are actually the oppressor we are not the victim to what you said
I think it's really important for people to yes watch the Dominion the movie that the the
documentary is the footage of animal testing because when I just ramble about animal testing
versus when I actually see that video of a monkey it's screaming and they're trying to like push
like a tube in in his nose just like it's a very different thing when you actually see it I think
the biggest success of these industries have been to hide the truth so in order to combat that
their your best weapon is really just to educate people and show them the truth and I guarantee you
far fewer people would have supported animal testing if they had to actually see it if they saw
burning mice skin for wound healing experiments they would have thought very differently from
about animal testing than just sitting down here and just say well you're against animal testing
so you hate people you don't insist it's not about that right far fewer people would have
wanted to consume meat egg dairy leather fur fur all that if they actually had to see it
and I just say this about the power of our words when I was a graduate student I was
doing activism on my campus not too consistently but just one day I was tabling this guy comes
he was in Marine Corps he was a part of Future Farmers of America so he raised pigs for slaughter
in a five-minute conversation he decided to go vegan and I don't take credit I think it was very
ready he just needed a little push and he comes back we become best friends and
uh longest story short he ends up doing his PhD in biomedical sciences develops a drug that
he's now building like starting a company over this drug that he created but he doesn't want to
do animal testing so now he's like researching all his laws how how can he actually take this
drug to market without doing animal testing and eventually as of literally I think he's today
or this week is his first day working as a scientist in PCRM on alternative animal testing
so he went literally from where he was to now dedicating his entire life to this over me just
being there I don't know 10 years ago just saying something I don't even remember what I said
and that just shows us the power like my entire organization ASAP is based on that theory that
when you speak up people change especially when you take this to young people who are open-minded
and will graduate to become next generation of thought leaders but aside from that I think it's
on us because most people are unaware it's on us to to spread the word to show people the truth
and use our liberty and and freedom of speech to bring awareness to this and don't be too
worried about being called judgmental all we need to do all we need to do is put ourselves in place
of the animals all we need to do is to think about if this was happening to a cat or dog
or to another human would be not acting if a dog was beating up in front of us would would we say
I'm not gonna stop this dog beater or I'm not gonna stop this child molester because you know
I'm worried to be judgment I'm too worried you know uh you're too worried about being called
you know militant vegan have you heard that like they say like oh you are a militant vegan when
I hear that I feel like somebody like a vegan with AK-47 is like shooting up people trying to
stop them forever in reality the worst possible way is that the vegan said you are an animal
abuser if you're eating the worst part of that could be just like a vegan not shoe your coding
what he was trying to say but these are all the labels that you know we are called so that we feel
ashamed to speak up and we can't afford it if you really want things to change we need to
grow up and sense the urgency and and speak up can I say something else
the way we look at this is during World War two obviously most of the world just didn't know what
was happening in concentration camps and there was there were a few incidences where people
escaped and then they started telling the rest of the world what was happening
except that nobody believed them they were in denial or like there is no way that this is
happening they're killing like Jews in this scale anyways because of this there was like a lot of
delay and so many so many people died needlessly because nobody believed them and no one really
wanted to talk about it the way I think about when you have this knowledge of what happens to
animals in animal testing what happens in animal farms what happens in dairy farms all that you
become like that person who just escaped a concentration camp you have this piece of
information that nobody knows and just imagine if you were in place of that guy who just escaped
a concentration camp you feel you feel like everyone comes across your life you want to tell them
what is happening behind these walls and I think we have that responsibility so just being vegan
not enough you you're that guy if you don't speak up you are the reason that many of these
animals are being killed behind these walls so we have that moral I don't want to make people
feel guilty I want them to feel like inspired that that how much power they have if they just
speak up and tell others about the atrocities that are so normalized so we have that responsibility
Madeline did you want to
Madeline did you want to comment on something too what Dr. Ferrat said
um I
hmm I I mean I consistently appreciate Dr. Farras's like just
like tirelessness throughout like throughout all of this I um
um you know I think I tend to um I tend to be the person that's sort of like yes um definitely
like use your voice and also I understand like the that that some people like the risks are higher
um for others like for some than others when it comes to speaking out and so I I do like to
acknowledge that like it's I don't know like in some ways I want to just say like yes like just
speak out just do it you need to do it and then I also understand like the the ramifications and
is and is this what I want to result in it uh or like the result to be like if I just you know
if I work in a in a lab and I'm I'm really starting to feel like I need to speak out about this
am I ready to be fired is that do I feel like that's going to be like the successful end because
that's probably what's going to come or is there anything else I might be able to do
you know like so I guess I just like think about things a little more um and and you know other
people it's like speaking out can mean not having a job and literally not having money and and needing
to take care of their families and stuff and again so like there's a lot of people out there who are
in great positions to speak out so I guess my point is just like it is okay if you need to
sort of like evaluate how you go about like speaking is it is it more in like these smaller
conversations or is it like you know you become this public figure with all eyes on you um and
also I would say too you know with with personal relationships I know a lot of people are like
you know they struggle with family or with like close friends like they might go vegan and then
it's like oh my god like I've I'm now am awake to all of this and I don't know how to deal with
my family who just doesn't get it that kind of thing um and I guess what I would want to offer
um there I mean I'm pretty fortunate that like my mom has always just been like so supportive of me
and so she just kind of like was like what is going through your brain and started reading and
then eventually went like vegan at 60 something because she was just like I can't you know this
makes sense and then you know it was just sort of this like snowball effect but there are some
cases where I think like you know give your give yourself some time with certain relationships people
don't always change overnight it would be great if everyone changed overnight but um you know try to
still be compassionate towards others when you are advocating because you know I don't know I mean I
know there's there's like controversy like some people will say like you know shame shame does
cause change shame doesn't cause change personally like if I'm feeling attacked if I'm feeling shamed
it doesn't inspire me to want to do something um I'm not saying that you still have to be honest
about what's going on and I think Dr. Faraz is great about that it's like this is the reality but I
also you know the empowering people is really really important throughout all of this and building
building a community that you feel can help you continue to speak out because it's it's a lot I
mean that's sort of that's what justify that's what justify is this organization again that I
read it and I don't think we I've even mentioned it completely but basically the idea behind justify
is I'm trying to empower other former and even current animal lab workers to to share their
stories from the industry to really start to get more of this secrecy or you know I guess combat
the secrecy of this industry and and help people who may be questioning or like already questioned
and left the industry and we're never going to talk about it but now are like oh there's other
people talking about it maybe I now feel comfortable talking about it like there is power in numbers
there's power in community and so as much as we want like to empower people like to speak out I
think making sure that they know they also have these people that they can turn to as they continue
speaking out or just kind of like learning how to use their use their voice so to speak is really
important yeah thanks for reminding me to clarify always when I say get active speak up I don't mean
that don't be strategic about it and it doesn't mean the same thing I don't think that everyone
should necessarily publicly even talk about veganism if your job it's really case by case right so
you know that you're a you are in a position that you could just get another job but if you are really
in a position where you know if you say that you're vegan you're going to get fired but using your
position though you're going to give it your 100% strategically without mentioning veganism push for
what you actually believe to be right then you do what you have to do um someone said you know uh I
knew that if I continue doing the animal testing then I was able to or don't make a noise then I can
get my vet degree and as a vet then I can actually go and you know the credibility that that will
give me you know outweighs anything else then I can like do it but if you do it I also have students
who tell me oh I don't have a choice of course you do you always everything you do you have you have a
choice um so yeah of course maybe that that professor will you know fire you but it's not going to be
end of the day you end of the world you just find another lab right so it's just uncomfortable so you
are continuing doing it because you are telling yourself if I don't do do it someone else will
but you could say that also killing people in the concentration camp that if I don't do that
someone else will but we don't justify it when it comes to humans right so what is the underlying
reason that we are not doing it is it really us wanting the best for the animals and being
strategic about it because then that would be justified or is it just we feel like shy or not
empowered and I do want people to feel like they have that power because you know when you speak up
when you change you get to change other people just at the same way that you know Maddie is now
empowering a lot of other people so what you do is completely different I'm not prescribing
any specific way for people to get active being act like keep telling the people that they need to
be active but I don't mean that you should everyone should go on the street and hold the tv
I'm saying that use anything in your power whether it's donation your resources your time just think
about it think about it as a moral urgency right another way of thinking about freedom of speech
is you know your right of hearing reading watching whatever you want um what if there was no freedom
of speech for animal rights activists then would I have been vegan um that's something you can ask
yourself so what if something happens to you um akin to what both of you have experienced uh with
your online you know on social media or in a protest with you know policemen dangling um
um hand handcuffs sorry um where do you go to who who do you call uh who is the freedom of
speech police uh to report this this violation of your rights um any advice on that I think Maddie
has more experience on that but I would probably just talk to animal lawyers and free free speech
lawyer our case was different because it wasn't actually unnecessarily an animal rights case for
lawyers at least for me it is an animal rights case but for the lawyers it's a freedom freedom of
speech case so I guess you either have to find this organization chat with lawyers and um yeah
that's all I can think of yeah I think um yeah reaching out to to lawyers um and I mean assuming
this is animal rights related animal lawyers are definitely a good place to go um I mean the animal
legal defense fund is who has represented me on both my cases um there are definitely other other
groups doing doing this work too um I and that fire is a fire yeah because they I think they wrote
actually an amicus brief um for my wisconsin case um they're like a good resource I mean I think part
of it too is is understanding what your your rights are with with free speech because again I didn't
even know that what I was doing like that this was going to turn into a free speech case I was just
like they're clearly targeting me and not wanting me to to say something but I didn't I wasn't make
like jumping to this because I didn't even have an understanding of free speech I mean I think
there's a lot wrong with our educational system and that's probably part of it um so you know if
you have questions and stuff too again reaching out to these individuals so not only trying to like
educate yourself on on what is um what it means but you know knowing that you can you can reach out
and ask people um including me and doctor for us like if something comes up and you're like who
would you go to I'm sure both of us would be happy to provide any sort of insight we might have
yeah I think uh uh you're absolutely right after working with fire now every time I get a letter
from I'm getting a letter from university saying that you can't say that I always like go to fire
homes like can they actually say this and it's really tricky it's not even for lawyers sometimes
they can't tell you yes or no they say yeah you know it's a private university so technically
whatever but you know there is a case if they specifically say that or whatever so it's not
as straightforward as you you think it might be and but I would say always question if somebody
is telling you you can't say what you just said uh yeah explore the the uh I just give one quick
other example like PCRM is another favorite organization of mine that uh does some of these
cases there was a high school kid who's who was told she wasn't allowed to uh hand out literature
about against dairy industry and the the school said you're not allowed to do that and so they were
allowed they were able to sue the high school or whoever it was over that um there was another
teacher who said posted something on their social media and he he got fired over that
because he criticized like dairy on his private facebook page and I think PCRM or some somewhere
else also helped help them fight that case and he won got fired back I think but there are so many
examples of this so if you're not sure always just ask yeah because it's really it's not always
straightforward I mean even I returned to my alma mater um a couple months ago back in October to
to table and and basically talk to to students alongside um actually one of the ASAP chapters
so the Wisconsin ASAP chapter and um you know Wisconsin has really been kind of putting out
a lot of free speech messaging and and trying to sort of um I guess be aligned to the first
amendment whether or not that is that is really taking place is um you know can be up for debate
but you know when I was looking at some of like the like at at the rules for where you can be
on campus um tabling and like who can be there even though this is a public university and it's
tax taxpayer fund funded there's all these rules about where you can be on campus at what time
how you can be there and to me I'm like is this does is this like allowed like is this actually
okay with this hold up because if you're a first you know if the or sorry if you're a publicly
funded institution do you actually get to control who's here you know at this time um like I know
there's you have written written out that you do and so it's it's very and I don't actually know the
answer to it to this to this day and it it's just I think it's like purposefully confusing and it's
purpose it's you know I think the point is to kind of deter you from from trying something that you
might actually be allowed to do um so you know I'm not saying like go break a bunch of rules but like
if something seems questionable there's no reason why you can't reach out to to lawyers who might be
able to help you and give you some advice as to like you know is this actually okay can I be here or
not I would say one thing that for listeners it's a huge red flag which means that you should probably
pursue this is if they apply the rules differently to you and if they discriminate because that's
definitely a red flag oftentimes even public places they have time place and manner restrictions
but they can be they're okay but they can be applied you know uniformly on everyone but if they're
letting someone else you know table but they're not letting you table with the same condition at
the same time at the same place and you're not doing anything um that breaks the law then that's
definitely a red flag so always look for that yeah agree wonderful and of course I will provide
links to fierce nonprofits uh in the episode notes um so such as fire uh or the animal legal fund
and Dr. Faraz Maddie thank you so much for having taken the time to talk with me and raise awareness
on this very important issue I truly appreciate that and I truly appreciate uh your work as
activists and uh what you have done on the front of free speech uh very impressive you did not fold
uh you were not scared of the intimidation tactics you kept on the fight so thank you for that
my pleasure and thanks uh first of all Maddie I know you get like a lot of backlash for just
voicing your concern and just speaking up and all the name callings and all that so it takes a
certain person to be able to resist um so thank you for that and for you as well because you
could do something else with your free time but you decided to start a podcast right um
to raise awareness about animals and that's all I'm asking you could do anything else but you
decided to do this because it's important to you and um I think animal rights people who talk about
animal animals this just really brings the most selfless people uh not only you don't get you
don't get to use it as virtue signaling but also like you lose potentially lose friends over it
just because you're speaking the truth and you're defending the most uh helpless so thank you both
of you for doing what you do thank you everyone for listening I kindly invite you to share this
podcast with the vegans you know let's encourage more people to take action again thank you so
much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode
you