1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,320 Hello everyone, you are listening to the Vegan Report Podcast. My name is Ryan and today, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:13,840 we address the free speech threats animal rights activists face every day. From social media 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:22,560 censorship and reputational harm to detention, we will explore the risks of talking for animals 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:29,280 in a world where animal exploitation is the norm. To discuss this topic, I have with me Dr. 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:37,760 Faraz, Harsini and Madeline Krasno two targets of free speech attacks. Dr. Faraz is the founder 6 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:44,800 and CEO of Allied Scholars for Animal Protection, ASAP, a non-profit which mentors and supports 7 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:51,520 animal advocates. He's also a cultivated meat bioprocessing senior scientist at the Good Food 8 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:58,000 Institute. Madeline is a returning guest of the show. She is the co-founder and executive director 9 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:05,360 of Justify, a non-profit dedicated to advancing science without human or animal suffering. 10 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:11,920 Justify provides a supportive space for current and former lab workers to share their stories 11 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:18,880 and aims to shine a light on the realities of animal research. I was thinking about free speech 12 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:28,400 in my own personal life and we discussed how I was born in North Africa and how in my origin 13 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:37,440 country, there is no free speech. There are blasphemy laws and that's the most important 14 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:45,280 point I think. There is no culture of free speech. You're not supposed to say certain things and 15 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:54,640 saying whatever you want is just not socially acceptable. I think that the experience of 16 00:01:54,640 --> 00:02:04,400 emigrating to a country where you have that freedom gave me the expectation I feel like and 17 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:14,800 maybe expectation is the wrong word but I felt like a duty to use that right. Since 18 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:21,280 I gained that right, I should be using it and defending it since I know firsthand what it means 19 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:29,040 not to have it. As I was thinking about that, I realized, yeah, I launched a podcast. Maybe 20 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:37,040 that's a topic that is more important than I realized for me, for my personal life, just from 21 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:47,440 a subconscious level. But what about you? Did you ever think about free speech before having your 22 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:57,200 misadventure with it? Did you ever think about the value of free speech in society 23 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:04,320 and what it meant to live in a country, a democratic country where you have that right? 24 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:16,240 Who wants to answer the question first? I can start. It's interesting to hear your reflection 25 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:25,680 and to think about the fact that I honestly, I know that free speech came up in my education 26 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:34,880 but I don't think I spent a lot of time really thinking about what it means, how it plays out. 27 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:45,520 I didn't even necessarily think about what it meant when I felt that my free speech 28 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:53,440 rights were being violated when I was trying to talk about my experience working in the 29 00:03:53,440 --> 00:04:05,360 primate lab. I think that my experience working in a primate lab, especially as someone who was 30 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:14,320 like very, I mean, I was a pretty shy individual. Public speaking was a terrifying thought to me. 31 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:22,720 I obeyed authority, I respected authority, I assumed that those in charge knew the most, 32 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:33,280 they're the ones to turn to. And all of this to say, I realized that being in that environment 33 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:41,360 sort of taught me to not so much talk even though in theory I should have been able to 34 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:53,040 to express concerns. And so after leaving the lab, after being done in that environment and 35 00:04:53,040 --> 00:05:00,000 kind of starting to experience situations where I would see injustice taking place 36 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:09,440 and sort of starting to speak up about it, I got more confident and I started to just kind of 37 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:17,360 explore what this meant, this idea that I should be able to actually speak out. Because I think 38 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,760 even though it's like something that is supposed to be a right for us here in this country, 39 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:31,600 you know, there's still social norms and that can dictate a lot of what people do end up talking 40 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:42,240 about and how that speech is construed. Yeah, what you said really resonates with me. 41 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:51,200 I'm originally from Iran and I think my introduction to speaking up was when I was a part of 42 00:05:51,200 --> 00:06:02,480 some of the protests and we saw how we got tear gassed and people got beaten up for just 43 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:11,360 saying words and I don't ever see how saying things with your mouth should lead to you losing your 44 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:28,320 life. And that goes to human rights, women having to wear hijab, me being gay and not even being 45 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,040 able to question it because not only I didn't have freedom of speech but also like internet was 46 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:41,760 filtered and then the question in religion was another thing and so many red lines that you 47 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:47,760 cannot even touch or say anything about and the consequences would be you literally going to jail 48 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:56,480 and losing your life over it. And so I think when I look at my life it's like you think about 49 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,160 how I plot it is like having nothing and then suddenly when you come to the US you're like, 50 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,640 oh this is amazing and then you realize that there are so many things wrong with this country as well 51 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:14,080 but I think I always keep in mind where I came from and where we are in the US or in the western 52 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:20,640 world at least which is certainly a lot better than perhaps Iran, Islamic countries, Africa. 53 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:28,480 But I also started to discover a lot of other problems even here. For instance, 54 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:36,960 my colleague got arrested over showing footage of factory farms in public property then you have 55 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:48,320 ag-gag laws that try to criminalize whistleblowers from just showing the cruelty in animal farms. 56 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,840 And then with my organization Allied Scholars for Animal Protection part of what we do is to just 57 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,760 be in universities and advocate for animals and then we see how close we get to just getting 58 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:06,800 canceled just because the administration doesn't like what we do. They constantly issue letters 59 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:12,800 just saying that your speech made students uncomfortable therefore you are canceled and 60 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:22,400 you're getting these warnings and I see that as someone who has lived the other side and I know how 61 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:29,200 it's like not to have free speech I'm just very worried about losing all these. I think we are 62 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:36,560 stepping back or going backwards in terms of free speech in this country and if we don't protect it 63 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:42,240 it's not given. It's really clear to me that free speech is not a given right it's something that 64 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,680 you have to fight for it and it's tough because you have to be ready to hear things that you don't 65 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:53,920 like that's a whole idea behind free speech to be open to things that you're not agreeing with 66 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:02,080 but I see that as a whole we are you know going in the wrong direction I think especially in 67 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:12,320 college campuses when it comes to animal testing and so many other things and even in the political 68 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:18,640 environment I think like the second that I don't agree with your political point of view then 69 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:25,120 suddenly your sexist, racist, homophobic all those labels that we just tell each other because we 70 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,400 are not willing to hear each other out and put each other in each other's shoes for a second 71 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:39,520 and be able to disagree in a civilized manner and what we do is we cancel, we censor information 72 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:47,360 and all that so but I hear you and I it's really interesting to me that you have the same experience 73 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:54,480 from Africa as well but I feel it when you don't have those rights and then you suddenly have 74 00:09:54,480 --> 00:10:00,640 then you feel like you have that responsibility to use it which is why I keep telling my American 75 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:06,960 and you know European friends that you have this voice you have this freedom of speech and with all 76 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:15,680 its problems you still can't say anything you want about the president of the United States and 77 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:21,120 don't feel like you're gonna go to jail and I don't think people understand how great that is 78 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,880 you can't say anything about religion anything about really anything without like thinking that 79 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:32,960 you're gonna lose your life over it and so now that you have that freedom I think we do have that 80 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:41,440 responsibility to speak up for other beings who don't have that opportunity. Yes I think that we 81 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:47,840 should make a distinction between again the culture of free speech the more you know social 82 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:56,560 aspect of it and then the more you know establishment free speech you know so legal free speech so when 83 00:10:56,560 --> 00:11:03,120 you talk about aga-gloss that's an attack on free speech from the institutions and then 84 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:12,880 with our examples of maybe attacks on free speech but from the the social side of it if we focus on 85 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:24,560 animal rights. Maddie? I mean I guess what comes to mind is is just the fact that you know we are 86 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:33,120 we are bombarded in every single way in society to use animals in in some way whether it's for 87 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:42,560 entertainment for resources for food for testing and that is so normalized and so the second that 88 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:50,880 you speak up and say hey like maybe maybe we need to rethink this it's it's suddenly an attack 89 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:56,160 it's it's viewed as as you are attacking the other person and don't get me wrong sometimes the way 90 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:03,120 people talk to each other can very much end up being an attack but I think that even if you're 91 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:09,760 kind of addressing it in a more you know neutral or personal matter like you know this is my 92 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:15,920 experience and this is what led me to you know to stop eating animals or whatever have you 93 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:23,360 it still becomes like personal to the other person or these other individuals the community 94 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:33,280 that's not sort of on board and then you know it's pretty quickly seen as sort of like you are 95 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:40,080 infringing on on my space on what I want to be doing even if what we're talking about has its 96 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:46,160 own victims so that's kind of what what I start to think about when I think about sort of 97 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,240 what happens when people start to start talking about the treatment of animals in our society 98 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:03,920 it's just it's it's so normalized to use them simply because we can and the very thought of 99 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:11,120 sort of changing that erupts this this defense because of that normalcy 100 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,560 Dr. Faraz anything 101 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:28,880 yeah I think when it comes to animals I remember when I was taking a biomedical ethics class and 102 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:38,320 then they were showing us the animal facility before that they told us you can't record and I 103 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,240 went to a public university so they said you have to turn off your phones no photography or anything 104 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:51,440 and then I raised my hand and I said why not and then they said we just don't want the you know 105 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:58,080 footage out I was like why not and then they said because you know some people get emotional or 106 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:05,200 whatever and I said well if you're a publicly funded university and we're doing all these things with 107 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:12,880 people's tax money isn't it their basic right to see what happens with their taxes and you know they 108 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:25,280 just you know shut me off and we went to animal facilities so and yeah I think the animal industry 109 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:32,240 whether it's food or animal experimentation you know they really use these laws trying to protect 110 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:39,120 themselves and by blocking free speech I mean Maddie's case is just a great example of how they 111 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:44,800 were censoring her specifically like no voice for you you cannot talk about this 112 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:56,080 but yeah I think you know I get laws and laws against animal testing like 113 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,920 showing the footage and recording these facilities just like clear example of how we're using 114 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:14,480 laws to to censor freedom of speech I guess. Yes Maddie yes I think you're 115 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:21,520 right that we are on the margins of things sometimes I speak out and I feel like I'm the crazy one 116 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:31,120 okay let's get to what happened to you so can you please bring us to that moment when 117 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:40,560 your free speech right was violated and I want to know you know from the beginning like how 118 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:49,920 did they started and did you expect that you're going to you know face that wall and what was 119 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:56,000 your reaction Dr. Faraz would you like to start this time? Oh sure I mean there's been so many 120 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,360 incidences I don't know which one to start with but the big one about animal rights and most recent 121 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:11,600 one I guess is an incident in Discovery Green in Houston which is a park that is open to public 122 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:22,560 it's a public park funded by you know taxpayer money but it's operated by private management 123 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:32,000 so that's why it was a little you know confusing for park management because they 124 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,840 and what we were doing we were basically showing doing a cube of truth so we were showing 125 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:46,800 standard practices standard and legal practices in animal farms in this public park and we were 126 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:53,920 not blocking the way we were not making any noise just silently and peacefully showing this footage 127 00:16:53,920 --> 00:17:00,400 did not even approach by standards we just stood there and showed this footage and then we were 128 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:07,040 asked to live and we showed them the tax records literally the video is there we are showing them 129 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:13,440 this is the tax this is your own website saying that this is a public park and they called the 130 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:20,800 police and police asked us to leave and my colleague said what happens are you threatening to arrest me 131 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,760 what happens if I don't live and they kept saying that the park manager wants you to live you have 132 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:32,160 to live and we kept saying that you should you as a police officer are you asking us to live 133 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:38,400 because that's a different thing and they kept saying that you know no we are not threatening you 134 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,040 and we said if you threaten to arrest us we will live you're not here to get arrested but this is 135 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,800 a right to be here and the police said no we are not threatening you but the park manager asks you 136 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:54,960 to live so you have to live but they suddenly changed your mind and arrested my colleague and 137 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:03,520 threatened me with arrest as well if I didn't leave and but we were able to capture this on 138 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:12,240 three cameras because we were so ready and the charges against my colleague was they were dropped 139 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:20,160 but then we sued the park the park management city of houston and police 140 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:31,280 at houston so this is an ongoing case as we were speaking but that's one example but also another 141 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:37,440 annoying thing is really just being in a lot of universities especially like private universities 142 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:50,400 where we have to be so worried about talking about animal issues because they keep cancelling us 143 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:57,680 or try to cancel us by saying that you know you're being offensive somebody got upset and 144 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:05,440 knowing that they would make a difference they would discriminate against us just because the 145 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:11,280 administration doesn't like vegans or doesn't care about animals or whatever the thing is 146 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:20,400 but we know that if it comes to another group they may be more tolerant or think about the optics 147 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,000 but when it comes to animals or vegans and animal rights they use anything in their power to really 148 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,560 shut us shut us down this is really annoying there's a lot to go for 149 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,240 I have a few follow-up questions and Maddie don't hesitate to also ask your questions and 150 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:49,360 make your comments okay the first one you said and going back to that the big one the lawsuit with 151 00:19:49,360 --> 00:20:00,000 the park staff in Houston yes who was the first person who came up to you and said go away 152 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:05,440 what you're doing right now is offensive just evacuate 153 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:14,560 who was that was it a park manager? The park has its own security people so the security asked us to 154 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:20,880 leave but this wasn't a one-time event we were asked to leave several times one-time police officer 155 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,800 or the tango handcuff to to my colleague and said if you don't leave I'm gonna arrest you right now 156 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:35,040 so it kept happening and we were just so frustrated which is why we decided to this time go with all 157 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:41,200 the documents record them and if they ask us to leave then we you know just leave and have it on the 158 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:48,720 record so we didn't really go to get arrested this time but unfortunately you know my colleague got 159 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:57,280 arrested but yeah it wasn't a one-time occurrence they kept asking us and we thought if we go prepared 160 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,560 and show them their own website that says it's a public park we have first amendment rights in 161 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:13,520 public property and yeah but you know the manager asked us to leave we refused and so they called 162 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:21,120 police and all that and case is actually being represented by University of Texas at Austin's 163 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:32,000 law school they have a clinic center for like religion religious freedom so they are representing 164 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:41,200 us as well as fire which is a big organization that protects free speech and and why did those 165 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:49,760 security people and and that policeman came up to you was it because of complaints glad you ask 166 00:21:49,760 --> 00:22:04,160 because he said we just don't like what you're showing and he said you know basically we are 167 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:11,600 not against your cause we just don't like what you're showing and he said it's not like i'm not 168 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:17,440 like against i don't he said something like that i'm not against free speech i just don't like what 169 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:25,520 you're showing i was like bro that's not how it works that's something that we say in Iran like 170 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:33,840 you have freedom of speech you can use it but you may lose your life of various so but it sounds 171 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:41,520 like um madison one of the things that they kept trying to say is like you know there's other avenues 172 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:47,040 like you don't have to be on our social media write an op-ed well i did write an op-ed and it 173 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,760 actually was published in madison and made its way around which was great but it was just like 174 00:22:51,760 --> 00:23:00,640 you don't get to choose how i how i you know use my right to to expressing myself that's not how 175 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:09,120 this works exactly they were very specific about we don't like the content and we don't like the 176 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:14,880 masks they were just like you and the mask is like the you know most neutral mask i was like 177 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:22,800 have you been in a halloween party or something but uh uh yeah clearly they were like discriminating 178 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:33,760 against the content um and uh uh yeah that's uh that's a big no and then when you mentioned the 179 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:42,960 universities you know in my mind the university is where you know it's the bastion of free speech 180 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:49,360 that's where you practice your free speech right you know you bring into the limits you just explore 181 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:55,760 intellectually some very offensive stuff you know that's the time that's the institution for that 182 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:05,360 and yet you you went there and you find this hostile audience and not necessarily the students 183 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:15,040 but the institution itself the administrators um so has university changed or are we just a 184 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:24,960 special case you know the animal rights uh cause yeah um i'm not sure i think i can only speak to 185 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:34,080 animal rights um and i think it has a lot to do with universities some universities are better some 186 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:40,000 or worse uh fire this organization actually ranks universities based on free speech but i think it has 187 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,480 something to do with how they have a certain point of view and anything outside of that box 188 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:53,360 would be shut down um so it's probably more than animal rights and that's just one of them 189 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,560 anymore i just tend to be always outside of the box no matter because most people are 190 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:05,440 against the agency it's always access of the box of everybody um but yeah some universities are 191 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:13,680 great and some are horrible like you know harvard is notorious for um you know lack of free speech and 192 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:24,560 um yeah and i think there is that and then their regulations and uh framework how student 193 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:32,880 organizations can function it's so vague um and the laws are written such that it's not 194 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:40,880 objective it's literally it depends on the guys who's like applying these rules and they can 195 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:47,840 selectively decide that they can apply to you and not not to someone else crazy the other thing is 196 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,440 that universities you know when i think of them i think of the left and i feel like 197 00:25:53,440 --> 00:26:01,360 i feel like they should be more receptive to the vegan message than than the right um okay maddie 198 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:09,440 you're the expert in that field you're the one who had you know this huge lawsuit thing with 199 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:18,240 related to university so tell us about your story of um attack on your free speech right 200 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:27,040 yeah so um so i studied as an undergrad at the university of wisconsin madison 201 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:38,480 i graduated in 2013 uh so over a decade ago now um and when i was there i was studying zoology and 202 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:47,600 child development and i had decided to um apply to be a student caretaker at one of the primate 203 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:55,840 labs on campus because i was passionate about primate conservation and i had the stream of 204 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:03,440 of going and working alongside jayden goodall or you know doing work similar to to what she did and 205 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:11,600 you know i i knew very little about animal testing at the time i mean i i think one of the reasons is 206 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:18,160 that you know social media was was not very big back then there wasn't like the information wasn't 207 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:25,440 even as accessible as it is now um and and even so i think it exists a lot in silo so that's like 208 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:34,000 a whole other issue but um you know that being said i kind of you know i had heard bits and pieces 209 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,480 but it was mostly like what what is taking place is necessary the animals are treated humanely um 210 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:47,840 the the individual who taught a course on um primates animal behavior the primates was actually 211 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:54,720 the the director of the lab that i went on to work in and even in that class i feel like it just 212 00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:02,320 built up my sort of admiration for primates with without giving me true insight into an actual 213 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:09,680 laboratory environment which is why i feel like i i went in wide-eyed and and passionate and excited 214 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:20,880 and quickly you know felt my soul deteriorated um so you know i ended up working this part-time 215 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:29,280 student role for for two years my last two years at school uh 2011 to 2013 um i was helping take 216 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:41,280 care of 500 plus monkeys mostly rhesus macaques um and some of the cinemalias macaques and um that 217 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:48,800 experience was severely traumatic um but because i was like so young at the time i think i and 218 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:58,320 honestly not not well aware of of mental health like and just what that looks like what um i don't 219 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,600 know like what what happens to you when you're experiencing something traumatic i mean i had 220 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:10,960 i'd come from i guess like a pretty privileged upbringing and stuff and i hadn't you know experienced 221 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:19,520 much of anything that would be i guess considered traumatic before then and i loved animals um i 222 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,560 was still at the time eating them you know participating in things that now i i would not 223 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,160 but i you know i didn't know i i knew so little about the way that animals are treated in in our 224 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:37,920 society and so this was very much an awakening in multiple ways not just to like how we treat 225 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:47,920 animals but also what the body does to protect itself in situations that are traumatic and in my 226 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:56,640 case i i would dissociate a lot i um still to this day don't remember a lot of what happened 227 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,280 and i you know these i guess are protective mechanisms and i was later diagnosed with PTSD 228 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:07,520 it all kind of came together but at the time it was just like two different lives for me my life 229 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:17,120 that was like in the lab and then the rest of my college experience um being in the lab i you know it 230 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:26,640 it was it became pretty clear that like you kind of just respect um those in charge they're the ones 231 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:37,200 who know best i you know i didn't i didn't know best something might feel icky or not i don't know 232 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,440 sit right but i just you know i was this like young impressionable person who thought like this is a 233 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:51,520 really good step towards this career and primate conservation and and therefore you know just don't 234 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:59,040 rock the boat um i also just like you know there's this sense that don't talk about it don't don't 235 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:05,360 bring up issues don't sound too much like an animal activist which i wasn't at the time but you know 236 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:16,320 clearly um that changed so um after my time in the lab i you know it ended because i graduated and 237 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:23,120 from there i knew i definitely wanted to to not have anything to do with animals being tested on 238 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:31,040 um i decided i wanted to be in like sanctuary based work so a little different than conservation but 239 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:37,920 um that's sort of what the path that i took and throughout that path and and that journey 240 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:46,880 i eventually started connecting with individuals who had um also worked in labs i also just was kind 241 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:55,600 of meeting some people who felt safe like safe to to talk about my experiences with and eventually 242 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:03,200 that led me to starting to be like i kind of am ready to like publicly share some of what this 243 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:11,280 experience was like and so you know fast forward to years later when i started to kind of take to 244 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:17,200 mostly instagram and facebook and was sharing some of my like recollections of my time in the lab as 245 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:25,520 well as commenting on the university of wisconsin madison social media um and saying like i worked in 246 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,240 one of their primate labs and like this was my experience or relating like what they posted 247 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:38,240 about to the plight of the animals in their labs um and i would also tag them in posts i created 248 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:46,640 it quickly like i mean really quickly they started untagging themselves from my posts 249 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:53,760 which like they're a public university um as uh dr foraz mentioned like they get you know 250 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,200 taxpayer dollars right um especially for this research they have been doing research on 251 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:08,480 primates for i believe 92 years is what we had recently looked up um long history i mean harry 252 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:14,400 harlow the infamous harry harlow who was you know taking baby monkeys away from their moms and 253 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:20,480 putting them on wire moms like this was the lab i worked in only i mean he had long past but it's 254 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:28,240 like their history is is infamous for this um depending on who you ask they some they seem to 255 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:39,360 still celebrate him um anyway i they're untagging me and then i noticed that they're starting to 256 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:48,800 delete comments and so at the time i had gone to a friend um christopher barry who was working at 257 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:56,960 the animal legal defense fund um this animal law group uh he is now with the non-human animal rights 258 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:03,840 project non-human rights project um so i had gone to him and i was like is this something that 259 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:10,080 they're allowed to do um you know like are they because i didn't know i i really wasn't aware of 260 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:16,720 what you know that i actually didn't know this whole taxpayer thing i just knew that i was being 261 00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:23,760 deleted they were untagging themselves and that was annoying like i was irritated so anyway he 262 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:30,240 was the one who was like they're a public university you know this doesn't seem right brought it to 263 00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:35,200 animal legal defense fund and and they were able to be like yeah like this is a free speech 264 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:42,960 lawsuit like we can we can take them on for this um and so i was like oh cool that sounds great um 265 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:48,800 you know that's the quick version i was also terrified and sick to my stomach and you know 266 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,000 nervous about the whole thing because this is my alma mater and you know i had a great education 267 00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:00,560 i learned a lot there they very much shaped who i am and i don't you know as a university there's 268 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:06,240 there's so much good there but that doesn't mean that i am not allowed to criticize some of what 269 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:12,480 is going on there and what needs to change and so you know i'm doing this because i also believe 270 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:22,560 in this university and believe that they can do better anyway we ended up um filing that lawsuit 271 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:32,640 back in 2021 i believe early 2021 it is well let me let me pause for a second because there are some 272 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:38,400 other important pieces to this when we filed the lawsuit they stopped they stopped censoring me and 273 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:45,680 they had admitted to censoring me as well but a key piece of this is that we noticed something that 274 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,360 i guess is like it wasn't a personal targeting but it's something that's important to talk about 275 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:57,680 because we we discovered they were using blocked word lists so they were using um 276 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,240 you know on instagram and on facebook you can make a list of words that like if someone types this 277 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:11,680 word like primate into a comment they will see like you yourself who typed it you see your comment 278 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:19,120 you see your comment and the university sees your comment but the public doesn't so what ended up 279 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,880 happening is we discovered that like even though they had stopped censoring me as part of the lawsuit 280 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,840 that was ongoing i was still having some comments that weren't showing up and i was like why is this 281 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,560 happening this doesn't make sense but it was this blocked word list that was not only effectively 282 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,920 censoring me but it's effectively censoring anyone who wants to talk about these issues because the 283 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:46,800 list was made up almost entirely of words related to animal testing so this was wild um and you know 284 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:53,600 a whole other set of kind of free speech violation because this is this is viewpoint targeting i mean 285 00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:02,720 clearly they were trying to they are trying to minimize the discussion around um animal testing 286 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:15,360 that is against it so um this lawsuit is actually still going on it was initially ruled against us um 287 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,480 i you know all i can say about that is that i just i feel like this industry is powerful and even 288 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:30,720 even as obvious as as something like this um it's still you know they still ruled against us 289 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:36,080 we appealed it and we're waiting to hear the results of that appeal and what's important to 290 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:42,880 keep in mind about that appeal is that it comes after a different lawsuit that i was a part of 291 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:51,280 where we sued the national institute of health um for similar uh viewpoint discrimination they 292 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:59,440 were using these blocked word lists to again do the same thing um stop animal advocates from 293 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:05,440 basically trying to talk about the vivisection that they're very much funding in this country 294 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:12,960 and that was ruled against us in lower courts and then we appealed and we won and so what's 295 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:19,120 important here is you know we were assuming that madison would would come back and and give us a 296 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:29,520 ruling especially based on that um the the win with the NIH and um it hasn't come yet so tbd we 297 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:39,920 continue to wait um but yeah that was kind of like the whole journey up until now um is the fact that 298 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:48,480 these taxpayer dollars our money is going towards this research and yet you know the national institute 299 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:54,560 of health itself the one funding most of this was trying to suppress this conversation not to 300 00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:02,800 mention you know my alma mater whose history is so deep in this research and and the irony of it 301 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:08,160 because anyone who knows the university of wisconsin madison knows that sifting and winnowing is one 302 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:15,120 of their like phrases um and for those of you who don't know what sifting and winnowing means it's 303 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:22,640 it's like the the academic pursuit of the truth um so you know they're a school that likes to talk 304 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:30,960 a lot about free speech um but again as dr fraz said it's kind of selective right like you know 305 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,640 we can we can support free speech but only along these lines and again that's just that's not how 306 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:48,000 it works so how how orwellian i mean i think that harvard which was ranked as worst university in terms 307 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:56,560 of free speech uh by uh fire i think their um their slogan or what do we call that that latin phrase 308 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:06,240 uh for them is veritas which is again you know the truth um seeking the truth okay so we have 309 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:18,800 the nih we have universities and then we also have park managers and um policemen um all of them 310 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:29,120 threatening in some way our free speech rights as animal rights activists what is that is that 311 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:41,840 the conspiracy uh is it the culture um how is it so systematic i mean i think you can just 312 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:50,720 you know follow the money right as as always um uh culture is a part of it um i think when you 313 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:57,680 think about animal testing there is a huge culture you're talking about um it's a very complex issue 314 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:05,600 you have professors who are pretty old you know um and that's literally the only thing they know 315 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:12,000 is to do animal testing and they've spent 50 years of their lives at least doing that thing that's 316 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,000 the only thing they know they set up the lab that way they just don't want to think out of the buck 317 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:22,160 so that's one problem then for them to publish which is really what brings money to their lab 318 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,880 they have to show that there is code and code clinical relevance so they do animal testing 319 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:33,280 even if they don't really think it's important then you have all these journals and NIH and FDA 320 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:40,800 that require like animal testing where it's not necessary and all this whole big you know interconnected 321 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:50,000 mess is extremely profitable for places that breed animals or you know for for animal testing so 322 00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:56,640 there's the whole thing um which you know when when then when you have money involved then they can 323 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,240 you know lobby and influence the laws and cultures and everything and prevent the truth to get out 324 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:09,840 um the medi probably knows better but there is like a website it's called uh it's like equivalent 325 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,680 of animal agricultural alliance like biomedical something what is it called they yeah there's 326 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,640 two of them i think you're talking about the foundation for biomedical research and then 327 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:27,120 understanding animal research yeah yeah yeah it's like animal agricultural alliance they just like 328 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:38,080 promote animal testing and all that but yeah another thing you can think about is cultivated meat 329 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:46,320 for instance because i work on that it's not directly maybe free speech but in my head it comes 330 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:53,520 pretty close to it because they're trying to not just ban consumption of it but doing research so 331 00:42:53,520 --> 00:43:00,560 they're banning universities to do research on cultivated meat which it's and and there is no 332 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:06,480 substantial like reason there is no like it's it's it's like a safety issue it's not that it's just 333 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:13,760 they don't they don't even say what it is um so yeah again you know animal farming is extremely 334 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,760 profitable you know that cultivated means so small it's not even profitable but like it's enough 335 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:26,480 for them to freak out and try to do to block it as best as they can right um and you track it it's 336 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:33,680 the same thing as trying to ban plant-based foods to you know label uh their products as uh 337 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,520 plant-based components to label products as like you know plant-based milk or meat and all that so 338 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:46,480 it's the same game in different places and obviously it's like there's a lot of money there is 339 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:55,120 infrastructure that nobody wants to change um but yeah so we do we do have a very hard 340 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:03,280 battle in front of us which is why it's so extremely important for every person listening 341 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:11,200 to this to use their voice your you know their resources whether it's money that they can donate 342 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,240 whether it's their time that they can volunteer whether it's using their freedom you know just 343 00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:23,920 talk you have this voice box and um you know you can talk to others you can talk to your friends and 344 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:29,520 family and if you are a college students do something slick it's on all of us to do something 345 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:36,240 it's like as Maddie said it's like animal operation is the biggest form of operation of all time in 346 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:44,160 terms of scale in terms of magnitude when you think about animal testing it's pure torture it is pure 347 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:50,640 torture you're just like people don't even understand that these animals are injected with things are 348 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:56,080 burned um I always say think about somebody who has cancer and how much they suffer just imagine 349 00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:02,000 giving all these cancer cells on a regular basis to thousands of mice for one single experiment 350 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:09,360 to cure cancer in mice um and this and without painkillers right so these animals are always 351 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:15,520 living in with chronic diseases there is a whole like knock knock out or knock down animals where 352 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:21,440 you genetically manipulate them so from birth they have genetic diseases and are suffering like 353 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:29,440 constant pain um and can you just imagine for a second imagine if you're a mouse and somebody 354 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:37,920 with the weight and body size of I don't know 1000 times of you grabs you and tries to like 355 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:43,600 you know gets your blood and drain your blood and take samples from you even if they don't actively 356 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,720 harm you you're just like freaking out just imagine if somebody that much bigger than you just grabbed 357 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:52,800 you and you don't know what's happening to you you think they're gonna kill you just the mental 358 00:45:52,800 --> 00:46:01,840 stress being isolated all of it it's pure torture um and that's why I just think whoever is listening 359 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:09,760 to this please do something like we cannot win this if we are shy if we are not doing our best 360 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:18,160 that's a very interesting point you're bringing up because we can talk about exterior forces 361 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:26,080 trying to censor us but we can also be censoring ourselves you know um Maddie you've said that 362 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:34,960 lots of times not wanting to rock the boat um so basically silencing ourselves um not wanting to 363 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:44,240 also feel uncomfortable you know sharing the truth about things um how do we get over this how we 364 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:52,640 could we get over this shyness um should we just go and watch dominion uh once a week to remind 365 00:46:52,640 --> 00:47:01,280 ourselves of uh you know what we're fighting for or against um how do we go how do we become 366 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:11,440 comfortable um speaking up for in behalf of animals Maddie do you want to go okay like yeah I 367 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:23,440 I mean I think so I think okay I have a few thoughts on this um because I think that 368 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:34,400 it's important to also acknowledge that the issues in like with how we treat animals um 369 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:40,480 um sort of like the different industries like even though there's similarities there's also differences 370 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:52,960 in terms of I think sort of how you go about um changing them and and how to actually advocate 371 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,360 more successfully I mean it's like there's nothing proven right like we can't we haven't had like this 372 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:04,000 grand success where all of a sudden we've you know people are no longer slaughtering pigs 373 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:10,800 like that that hasn't happened um you know sometimes labs are are closed down it's very rare but like 374 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,840 sometimes an experiment is stopped but I think what I'm what is coming to mind for me is that 375 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:23,680 you know I especially with animal experimentation which is where my background is even though I 376 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:29,440 don't come from the the testing side of things I come from the caregiving side of things um 377 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:36,400 um through you know through my journey of speaking out and and creating this organization justify 378 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:47,280 I am continuing to learn um the scale to which this industry operates and Dr. Farah has kind of 379 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:53,440 talked a little bit about it in the sense that um you know there's there's money that's that's so 380 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,840 intertwined in this like there's this publisher Paris bias like there's researchers who have 381 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:03,920 been doing this forever and therefore you know humans are very uh we look we look we like uh 382 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:10,160 to do the same thing like we're kind of creatures of habit um we like to do what we're comfortable 383 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:18,560 with and so I think you know we have to keep these things in mind we have to keep in mind that it is 384 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:26,400 true that animal experimentation in our history has resulted in things that have radically changed 385 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:34,080 the existence um positively for humans does that mean it was justified I mean we could go down a 386 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:41,280 whole rabbit hole there does that mean that what we're doing now is justified um so I think these 387 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:47,120 things need to be kept in mind when we are talking about an industry like the animal 388 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:53,040 experimentation industry because humans have this tendency to want things to be black and white 389 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:59,200 and good and bad you know I and again I think uh Dr. Farah as you kind of alluded to this at the way 390 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,760 beginning of this conversation where it's like someone says one thing and now you are labeled 391 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:10,400 as this um and I see that a lot with the animal experimentation industry um and especially with 392 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:17,200 activists it's like you worked in a lab so therefore you're a bad person um you know I I worked in a 393 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:23,600 lab I've been told that I deserve PTSD that I should go die and this is like even since dedicating 394 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:32,480 my life to trying to change this so you know my point here is that like we have to have an 395 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:41,360 understanding of the complexities of these systems in order to go about changing them um and and 396 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:48,160 unfortunately it's it's not enough to just say look at how badly these animals are suffering um 397 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,760 that that is definitely a strong piece of it I mean that's that's where my heart is um but I know 398 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:59,280 that that's that's not enough for everyone especially because when you can't personally 399 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:05,520 experience it yourself when you're not the one seeing the animals in this in this lab every 400 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,480 single day and thinking about them when you leave and when you go to sleep and when you're dreaming 401 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:17,440 it's it's harder to to be thinking about them out of sight out of mind right and oh my gosh 402 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,400 the propaganda around the labs is is so great right we have all of these findings and we're 403 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:34,720 we're curing diseases are we so um I just I I think these things are really important um and I 404 00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:41,360 think my point here is that the more we can connect with other individuals who have a really good 405 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:49,840 understanding of how these things work um I think the more powerful our voices can be um and I say 406 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:55,840 this again as someone who came from the animal care side of things so I am continuing to meet with 407 00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:00,960 people who actually in the in the we're in the industry but on a totally different side of 408 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:08,640 things the the research right and I'm learning that perspective and why you know that has continued 409 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:16,080 to be the norm and and how we need to to change things you know in terms of people being consistently 410 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:22,080 feeling like you know this is the career I want and I have to do this in order to do that um or 411 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:27,040 else I have to give up on this career like how do we keep compassionate people in the field of science 412 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:32,640 and not make them traumatize themselves and and cause suffering to others we need to be able to 413 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:39,360 do that and we need to understand how this all works and so I guess my my long-winded point here 414 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:47,040 is that um it's I think part of it is is is doing our own research and talking to others who are 415 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,960 who are all kind of working towards the same thing so that we're not operating sort of in our 416 00:52:52,960 --> 00:53:02,160 own silos right of um you know trying to tackle a very complicated industry that is still doing a 417 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:10,480 good job of justifying its existence but what about you know on a smaller scale you know like 418 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:17,520 witnessing animal abuse in in the streets are having an uncomfortable conversation with a family 419 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:26,320 member or with a work colleague I mean I also understand the consequences of speaking up even 420 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:35,920 from a you know a small scale um like yeah the social yes going back to that social price that 421 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:42,000 you pay you know I launched a podcast about animal rights I say things that most people 422 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:51,280 will not agree with um that some people will even find offensive but this podcast I don't hide it 423 00:53:51,280 --> 00:54:03,600 you know if an employer or a client looks me up online they will find that I am the host of this 424 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:11,520 podcast and they can listen to every one of the episodes and how I spoke up against animal abuse 425 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:18,560 I understand that it's a risk I understand that I might lose some job opportunities or 426 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:25,280 you know professional opportunities from doing that very much possible 427 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:34,720 yet I still do it you know I still feel inspired to speak up I still think it's important and that 428 00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:46,720 the risks are worth you know going forward with my opinions and what I and my beliefs and my 429 00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:55,360 convictions okay what do you make of that I really admire your courage and I think we just need 430 00:54:55,360 --> 00:55:04,960 more people like you at some point we have to be clear to ourselves that we have a limited time um 431 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:14,800 in our lives and how many years of our lives do we want to go about without speaking up with 432 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:19,840 censoring ourselves like it goes back to what you were saying about at some point we start 433 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:27,760 censoring ourselves and we are just so worried about being judgmental and being called judgmental 434 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:36,000 and you know I think the entire society doesn't want us to speak up and their best tool honestly 435 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:43,920 I think their best weapon and way that they have to silence us is to make us feel so embarrassed 436 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:54,320 and ashamed of speaking up that we don't speak up at all and I think that animal oppression is the 437 00:55:54,320 --> 00:56:02,480 only form of social justice issues that we are not the victim and it makes it incredibly hard to 438 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:08,880 speak up because you know we are actually the oppressor we are not the victim to what you said 439 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,840 I think it's really important for people to yes watch the Dominion the movie that the the 440 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:18,960 documentary is the footage of animal testing because when I just ramble about animal testing 441 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:25,440 versus when I actually see that video of a monkey it's screaming and they're trying to like push 442 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:30,480 like a tube in in his nose just like it's a very different thing when you actually see it I think 443 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,080 the biggest success of these industries have been to hide the truth so in order to combat that 444 00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:42,960 their your best weapon is really just to educate people and show them the truth and I guarantee you 445 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:50,480 far fewer people would have supported animal testing if they had to actually see it if they saw 446 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:57,360 burning mice skin for wound healing experiments they would have thought very differently from 447 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:03,920 about animal testing than just sitting down here and just say well you're against animal testing 448 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:09,680 so you hate people you don't insist it's not about that right far fewer people would have 449 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:15,120 wanted to consume meat egg dairy leather fur fur all that if they actually had to see it 450 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:23,760 and I just say this about the power of our words when I was a graduate student I was 451 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:30,560 doing activism on my campus not too consistently but just one day I was tabling this guy comes 452 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:36,880 he was in Marine Corps he was a part of Future Farmers of America so he raised pigs for slaughter 453 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:44,640 in a five-minute conversation he decided to go vegan and I don't take credit I think it was very 454 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:51,040 ready he just needed a little push and he comes back we become best friends and 455 00:57:51,040 --> 00:58:00,160 uh longest story short he ends up doing his PhD in biomedical sciences develops a drug that 456 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:07,840 he's now building like starting a company over this drug that he created but he doesn't want to 457 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:12,960 do animal testing so now he's like researching all his laws how how can he actually take this 458 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:18,560 drug to market without doing animal testing and eventually as of literally I think he's today 459 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:24,480 or this week is his first day working as a scientist in PCRM on alternative animal testing 460 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:33,360 so he went literally from where he was to now dedicating his entire life to this over me just 461 00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:38,160 being there I don't know 10 years ago just saying something I don't even remember what I said 462 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:46,400 and that just shows us the power like my entire organization ASAP is based on that theory that 463 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:52,000 when you speak up people change especially when you take this to young people who are open-minded 464 00:58:54,080 --> 00:59:02,240 and will graduate to become next generation of thought leaders but aside from that I think it's 465 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:12,720 on us because most people are unaware it's on us to to spread the word to show people the truth 466 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:21,120 and use our liberty and and freedom of speech to bring awareness to this and don't be too 467 00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:26,240 worried about being called judgmental all we need to do all we need to do is put ourselves in place 468 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:32,320 of the animals all we need to do is to think about if this was happening to a cat or dog 469 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:40,720 or to another human would be not acting if a dog was beating up in front of us would would we say 470 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:48,080 I'm not gonna stop this dog beater or I'm not gonna stop this child molester because you know 471 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:55,680 I'm worried to be judgment I'm too worried you know uh you're too worried about being called 472 00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:01,520 you know militant vegan have you heard that like they say like oh you are a militant vegan when 473 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:07,360 I hear that I feel like somebody like a vegan with AK-47 is like shooting up people trying to 474 01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:13,520 stop them forever in reality the worst possible way is that the vegan said you are an animal 475 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:19,760 abuser if you're eating the worst part of that could be just like a vegan not shoe your coding 476 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:27,920 what he was trying to say but these are all the labels that you know we are called so that we feel 477 01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:32,160 ashamed to speak up and we can't afford it if you really want things to change we need to 478 01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:44,560 grow up and sense the urgency and and speak up can I say something else 479 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:56,320 the way we look at this is during World War two obviously most of the world just didn't know what 480 01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:04,320 was happening in concentration camps and there was there were a few incidences where people 481 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,880 escaped and then they started telling the rest of the world what was happening 482 01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:13,680 except that nobody believed them they were in denial or like there is no way that this is 483 01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:21,840 happening they're killing like Jews in this scale anyways because of this there was like a lot of 484 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:28,000 delay and so many so many people died needlessly because nobody believed them and no one really 485 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:36,080 wanted to talk about it the way I think about when you have this knowledge of what happens to 486 01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:41,200 animals in animal testing what happens in animal farms what happens in dairy farms all that you 487 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,280 become like that person who just escaped a concentration camp you have this piece of 488 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:51,760 information that nobody knows and just imagine if you were in place of that guy who just escaped 489 01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:56,880 a concentration camp you feel you feel like everyone comes across your life you want to tell them 490 01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:04,240 what is happening behind these walls and I think we have that responsibility so just being vegan 491 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:10,400 not enough you you're that guy if you don't speak up you are the reason that many of these 492 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,680 animals are being killed behind these walls so we have that moral I don't want to make people 493 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:20,960 feel guilty I want them to feel like inspired that that how much power they have if they just 494 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:27,840 speak up and tell others about the atrocities that are so normalized so we have that responsibility 495 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:31,840 Madeline did you want to 496 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,920 Madeline did you want to comment on something too what Dr. Ferrat said 497 01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,880 um I 498 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:58,560 hmm I I mean I consistently appreciate Dr. Farras's like just 499 01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:08,400 like tirelessness throughout like throughout all of this I um 500 01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:18,880 um you know I think I tend to um I tend to be the person that's sort of like yes um definitely 501 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:31,280 like use your voice and also I understand like the that that some people like the risks are higher 502 01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:40,400 um for others like for some than others when it comes to speaking out and so I I do like to 503 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:46,400 acknowledge that like it's I don't know like in some ways I want to just say like yes like just 504 01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:55,280 speak out just do it you need to do it and then I also understand like the the ramifications and 505 01:03:55,280 --> 01:04:00,800 is and is this what I want to result in it uh or like the result to be like if I just you know 506 01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:06,000 if I work in a in a lab and I'm I'm really starting to feel like I need to speak out about this 507 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:12,320 am I ready to be fired is that do I feel like that's going to be like the successful end because 508 01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,760 that's probably what's going to come or is there anything else I might be able to do 509 01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:23,040 you know like so I guess I just like think about things a little more um and and you know other 510 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:28,560 people it's like speaking out can mean not having a job and literally not having money and and needing 511 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:33,520 to take care of their families and stuff and again so like there's a lot of people out there who are 512 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:40,320 in great positions to speak out so I guess my point is just like it is okay if you need to 513 01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:47,120 sort of like evaluate how you go about like speaking is it is it more in like these smaller 514 01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:54,080 conversations or is it like you know you become this public figure with all eyes on you um and 515 01:04:54,080 --> 01:05:01,200 also I would say too you know with with personal relationships I know a lot of people are like 516 01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:06,880 you know they struggle with family or with like close friends like they might go vegan and then 517 01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:13,120 it's like oh my god like I've I'm now am awake to all of this and I don't know how to deal with 518 01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:19,920 my family who just doesn't get it that kind of thing um and I guess what I would want to offer 519 01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:27,760 um there I mean I'm pretty fortunate that like my mom has always just been like so supportive of me 520 01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:32,320 and so she just kind of like was like what is going through your brain and started reading and 521 01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:38,960 then eventually went like vegan at 60 something because she was just like I can't you know this 522 01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:44,320 makes sense and then you know it was just sort of this like snowball effect but there are some 523 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:51,520 cases where I think like you know give your give yourself some time with certain relationships people 524 01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:59,120 don't always change overnight it would be great if everyone changed overnight but um you know try to 525 01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:06,160 still be compassionate towards others when you are advocating because you know I don't know I mean I 526 01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:11,680 know there's there's like controversy like some people will say like you know shame shame does 527 01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:17,440 cause change shame doesn't cause change personally like if I'm feeling attacked if I'm feeling shamed 528 01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:24,480 it doesn't inspire me to want to do something um I'm not saying that you still have to be honest 529 01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:30,080 about what's going on and I think Dr. Faraz is great about that it's like this is the reality but I 530 01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:38,960 also you know the empowering people is really really important throughout all of this and building 531 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:45,920 building a community that you feel can help you continue to speak out because it's it's a lot I 532 01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:51,760 mean that's sort of that's what justify that's what justify is this organization again that I 533 01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:57,520 read it and I don't think we I've even mentioned it completely but basically the idea behind justify 534 01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:02,800 is I'm trying to empower other former and even current animal lab workers to to share their 535 01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:10,480 stories from the industry to really start to get more of this secrecy or you know I guess combat 536 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:19,360 the secrecy of this industry and and help people who may be questioning or like already questioned 537 01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,960 and left the industry and we're never going to talk about it but now are like oh there's other 538 01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:28,320 people talking about it maybe I now feel comfortable talking about it like there is power in numbers 539 01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:37,360 there's power in community and so as much as we want like to empower people like to speak out I 540 01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:43,040 think making sure that they know they also have these people that they can turn to as they continue 541 01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:51,920 speaking out or just kind of like learning how to use their use their voice so to speak is really 542 01:07:51,920 --> 01:08:01,280 important yeah thanks for reminding me to clarify always when I say get active speak up I don't mean 543 01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:07,040 that don't be strategic about it and it doesn't mean the same thing I don't think that everyone 544 01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:14,640 should necessarily publicly even talk about veganism if your job it's really case by case right so 545 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:20,640 you know that you're a you are in a position that you could just get another job but if you are really 546 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:25,200 in a position where you know if you say that you're vegan you're going to get fired but using your 547 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:32,560 position though you're going to give it your 100% strategically without mentioning veganism push for 548 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:39,280 what you actually believe to be right then you do what you have to do um someone said you know uh I 549 01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:45,840 knew that if I continue doing the animal testing then I was able to or don't make a noise then I can 550 01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:53,440 get my vet degree and as a vet then I can actually go and you know the credibility that that will 551 01:08:53,440 --> 01:08:59,440 give me you know outweighs anything else then I can like do it but if you do it I also have students 552 01:08:59,440 --> 01:09:04,480 who tell me oh I don't have a choice of course you do you always everything you do you have you have a 553 01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:12,240 choice um so yeah of course maybe that that professor will you know fire you but it's not going to be 554 01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:18,480 end of the day you end of the world you just find another lab right so it's just uncomfortable so you 555 01:09:18,480 --> 01:09:23,440 are continuing doing it because you are telling yourself if I don't do do it someone else will 556 01:09:23,440 --> 01:09:28,080 but you could say that also killing people in the concentration camp that if I don't do that 557 01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:32,800 someone else will but we don't justify it when it comes to humans right so what is the underlying 558 01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:38,560 reason that we are not doing it is it really us wanting the best for the animals and being 559 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:46,160 strategic about it because then that would be justified or is it just we feel like shy or not 560 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:54,560 empowered and I do want people to feel like they have that power because you know when you speak up 561 01:09:55,760 --> 01:10:01,280 when you change you get to change other people just at the same way that you know Maddie is now 562 01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:07,280 empowering a lot of other people so what you do is completely different I'm not prescribing 563 01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:14,800 any specific way for people to get active being act like keep telling the people that they need to 564 01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,880 be active but I don't mean that you should everyone should go on the street and hold the tv 565 01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:26,000 I'm saying that use anything in your power whether it's donation your resources your time just think 566 01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:33,840 about it think about it as a moral urgency right another way of thinking about freedom of speech 567 01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:47,200 is you know your right of hearing reading watching whatever you want um what if there was no freedom 568 01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:55,680 of speech for animal rights activists then would I have been vegan um that's something you can ask 569 01:10:55,680 --> 01:11:05,920 yourself so what if something happens to you um akin to what both of you have experienced uh with 570 01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:14,000 your online you know on social media or in a protest with you know policemen dangling um 571 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:27,920 um hand handcuffs sorry um where do you go to who who do you call uh who is the freedom of 572 01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:37,600 speech police uh to report this this violation of your rights um any advice on that I think Maddie 573 01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:45,200 has more experience on that but I would probably just talk to animal lawyers and free free speech 574 01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:51,360 lawyer our case was different because it wasn't actually unnecessarily an animal rights case for 575 01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:56,240 lawyers at least for me it is an animal rights case but for the lawyers it's a freedom freedom of 576 01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:05,360 speech case so I guess you either have to find this organization chat with lawyers and um yeah 577 01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:17,280 that's all I can think of yeah I think um yeah reaching out to to lawyers um and I mean assuming 578 01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:23,600 this is animal rights related animal lawyers are definitely a good place to go um I mean the animal 579 01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:29,360 legal defense fund is who has represented me on both my cases um there are definitely other other 580 01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:37,920 groups doing doing this work too um I and that fire is a fire yeah because they I think they wrote 581 01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:44,880 actually an amicus brief um for my wisconsin case um they're like a good resource I mean I think part 582 01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:51,360 of it too is is understanding what your your rights are with with free speech because again I didn't 583 01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:58,080 even know that what I was doing like that this was going to turn into a free speech case I was just 584 01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:05,920 like they're clearly targeting me and not wanting me to to say something but I didn't I wasn't make 585 01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:11,680 like jumping to this because I didn't even have an understanding of free speech I mean I think 586 01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:18,000 there's a lot wrong with our educational system and that's probably part of it um so you know if 587 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:22,640 you have questions and stuff too again reaching out to these individuals so not only trying to like 588 01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:30,960 educate yourself on on what is um what it means but you know knowing that you can you can reach out 589 01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:37,760 and ask people um including me and doctor for us like if something comes up and you're like who 590 01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:44,080 would you go to I'm sure both of us would be happy to provide any sort of insight we might have 591 01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:52,480 yeah I think uh uh you're absolutely right after working with fire now every time I get a letter 592 01:13:52,480 --> 01:13:57,040 from I'm getting a letter from university saying that you can't say that I always like go to fire 593 01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:02,480 homes like can they actually say this and it's really tricky it's not even for lawyers sometimes 594 01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:08,160 they can't tell you yes or no they say yeah you know it's a private university so technically 595 01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:13,040 whatever but you know there is a case if they specifically say that or whatever so it's not 596 01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:18,960 as straightforward as you you think it might be and but I would say always question if somebody 597 01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:27,760 is telling you you can't say what you just said uh yeah explore the the uh I just give one quick 598 01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:33,520 other example like PCRM is another favorite organization of mine that uh does some of these 599 01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:40,400 cases there was a high school kid who's who was told she wasn't allowed to uh hand out literature 600 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:46,000 about against dairy industry and the the school said you're not allowed to do that and so they were 601 01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:52,800 allowed they were able to sue the high school or whoever it was over that um there was another 602 01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:58,640 teacher who said posted something on their social media and he he got fired over that 603 01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:05,440 because he criticized like dairy on his private facebook page and I think PCRM or some somewhere 604 01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:11,360 else also helped help them fight that case and he won got fired back I think but there are so many 605 01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:20,320 examples of this so if you're not sure always just ask yeah because it's really it's not always 606 01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:29,120 straightforward I mean even I returned to my alma mater um a couple months ago back in October to 607 01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:37,280 to table and and basically talk to to students alongside um actually one of the ASAP chapters 608 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:45,520 so the Wisconsin ASAP chapter and um you know Wisconsin has really been kind of putting out 609 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:54,080 a lot of free speech messaging and and trying to sort of um I guess be aligned to the first 610 01:15:54,080 --> 01:16:00,400 amendment whether or not that is that is really taking place is um you know can be up for debate 611 01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:10,400 but you know when I was looking at some of like the like at at the rules for where you can be 612 01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:17,040 on campus um tabling and like who can be there even though this is a public university and it's 613 01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:23,360 tax taxpayer fund funded there's all these rules about where you can be on campus at what time 614 01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:31,280 how you can be there and to me I'm like is this does is this like allowed like is this actually 615 01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:36,960 okay with this hold up because if you're a first you know if the or sorry if you're a publicly 616 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:44,400 funded institution do you actually get to control who's here you know at this time um like I know 617 01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:49,600 there's you have written written out that you do and so it's it's very and I don't actually know the 618 01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:58,720 answer to it to this to this day and it it's just I think it's like purposefully confusing and it's 619 01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:06,080 purpose it's you know I think the point is to kind of deter you from from trying something that you 620 01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:12,320 might actually be allowed to do um so you know I'm not saying like go break a bunch of rules but like 621 01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:18,480 if something seems questionable there's no reason why you can't reach out to to lawyers who might be 622 01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:24,480 able to help you and give you some advice as to like you know is this actually okay can I be here or 623 01:17:24,480 --> 01:17:31,920 not I would say one thing that for listeners it's a huge red flag which means that you should probably 624 01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:39,920 pursue this is if they apply the rules differently to you and if they discriminate because that's 625 01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:48,800 definitely a red flag oftentimes even public places they have time place and manner restrictions 626 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:57,920 but they can be they're okay but they can be applied you know uniformly on everyone but if they're 627 01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:04,160 letting someone else you know table but they're not letting you table with the same condition at 628 01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:11,520 the same time at the same place and you're not doing anything um that breaks the law then that's 629 01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:19,920 definitely a red flag so always look for that yeah agree wonderful and of course I will provide 630 01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:31,040 links to fierce nonprofits uh in the episode notes um so such as fire uh or the animal legal fund 631 01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:39,440 and Dr. Faraz Maddie thank you so much for having taken the time to talk with me and raise awareness 632 01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:47,360 on this very important issue I truly appreciate that and I truly appreciate uh your work as 633 01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:56,400 activists and uh what you have done on the front of free speech uh very impressive you did not fold 634 01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:03,840 uh you were not scared of the intimidation tactics you kept on the fight so thank you for that 635 01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:09,600 my pleasure and thanks uh first of all Maddie I know you get like a lot of backlash for just 636 01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:17,520 voicing your concern and just speaking up and all the name callings and all that so it takes a 637 01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:27,360 certain person to be able to resist um so thank you for that and for you as well because you 638 01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:32,720 could do something else with your free time but you decided to start a podcast right um 639 01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:39,200 to raise awareness about animals and that's all I'm asking you could do anything else but you 640 01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:46,560 decided to do this because it's important to you and um I think animal rights people who talk about 641 01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:53,600 animal animals this just really brings the most selfless people uh not only you don't get you 642 01:19:53,600 --> 01:20:00,320 don't get to use it as virtue signaling but also like you lose potentially lose friends over it 643 01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:06,800 just because you're speaking the truth and you're defending the most uh helpless so thank you both 644 01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:13,680 of you for doing what you do thank you everyone for listening I kindly invite you to share this 645 01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:20,720 podcast with the vegans you know let's encourage more people to take action again thank you so 646 01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:44,560 much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode 647 01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:51,600 you