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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.

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Today I want to show you what the world of politics looks like at its best.

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When it is embodied by hopeful, passionate and inspiring leaders who dare to dream of

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a more compassionate world.

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A rare kind of politics light years away from the small world of calculating cynical and

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power hungry politicians.

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Today we are talking to the candidates of the Animal Protection Party of Canada who

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share with us tales of their uphill battle against a system that keeps them locked outside

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the centres of power.

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Their names are Liz White, Edward Fraser, Deborah Wall, Irene Kay and Mike Peach.

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Welcome everyone, thank you so much for being here.

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So happy to see you all.

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Let me start with this icebreaker question.

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Can you please state your name and also talk about your vegan or animal rights hero?

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Yes, so I can start.

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My name is Mike Peach.

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I'm from St. John's, Newfoundland and I've been vegan and animal liberation activist

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for about 10 years now.

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So yes, I guess it's hard to say I'm a vegan or animal liberation activist.

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I'm a hero but there's a couple I like.

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I like Melanie Joy.

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I don't know if you've heard of her.

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She's a clinical psychologist and she's the one who came up with the term chironism to

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explain the belief system that most people in society get indoctrinated into from a

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young age which makes them prejudiced against certain species of animals considered food.

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So she explains how it's a learned behavior and all the parallels with other systematic

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forms of oppression and discrimination.

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She has a really good TED talk that I like.

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It's usually the first thing that I recommend people watch when I do street outreach.

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And then there's a couple other common ones that most people like.

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I like Gary or Obsky.

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There's Joey Karbstrong and Earthling Ed.

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I like Earthling Ed too.

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I want to try to figure out how to set up where they do the tables and then they just

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sit down and invite people to come chat with them.

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I think that's a good form of street outreach too.

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Wonderful.

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Thank you, Mike.

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I will add the link to her TED talk in the episode notes.

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Liz?

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So my name's Liz White.

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I'm the leader of the animal protection party of Canada.

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I started in the became an animal rights activist and in the late 1980s or early 1990s was at

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the Toronto Humane Society, got fired from there for having perhaps two radical thoughts

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along with some of the other people there, which was quite funny, but it allowed us to

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form animal alliance.

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And then in 2005, the Supreme Court ruled that the election elections act, Ken Elections

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Act needed to be amended to allow smaller parties to be able to actually form properly

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and participate in elections.

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And so in 2005, 2006, we formed the animal protection party of Canada.

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And so we've been around for about 18 years, I guess.

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The barriers in the act for small parties mean that they will never really be able to

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participate in a way that the party for the animals does, for example, in the Netherlands,

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where they actually are able to elect people to all levels of government, including the

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European Parliament.

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So we're looking at legislative changes and to the act.

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But of course, the act is controlled by the large parties who have their own interests,

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which is not to add any political parties to the mix.

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And so it'll be an uphill battle, but we're looking at some of the avenues to actually

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break down some of those barriers.

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Thank you, Liz.

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Irene?

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Yes, I'm Irene Kay.

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I'm in Burlington, Ontario, and I will be running as a candidate for the animal protection

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party when the next federal election rolls around.

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I have two heroes.

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One is Gary Francione, who I discovered when I very first went vegan.

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And I loved his argument that basically, if most people would agree that it's wrong to

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harm an animal unnecessarily, and that if you take that to its logical extension, because

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we don't need animals to live, we don't need to eat animals to live, then any killing of

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an animal is unnecessary.

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And his main argument, he's a legal scholar, and his main argument from a legal point of

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view is that as long as animals continue to be classed as property, then there's no

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– all animal welfare laws in the world are not going to help them.

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And as it stands now, most of the animal welfare laws do not cover the vast majority of farmed

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animals that we raise and slaughter for food.

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My other hero is Will Tuttle.

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And his famous book is World Peace Diet.

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Again, I read that 10 years ago when I first went vegan.

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I literally wept on every page because he writes so poetically and so movingly about

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the plight of animals, especially the plight of the female animals, because it's an exploit.

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Basically animal husbandry is exploitation of the female, the female chicken, the female

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pig, the female cow.

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And the most abused animal on the planet is the dairy cow.

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Thank you, Irene.

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Debbie, your turn.

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Thank you all, and I ran for the Animal Protection Party of Canada in 2021.

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I became the first Manitoba to represent the party.

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And I had my aha moment in 1978 when I was attending pre-vector classes at the University

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of Manitoba.

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And we went to the annual Aggie Bash, and I happened to see a little calf.

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And when I went over to say hi to them, they licked my face, and I realized, you're no

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different than a dog.

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And another thing I realized is that we as humans are capable of all kinds of mental

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gymnastics to justify all kinds of horrible things that we do to animals.

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But once something touches your heart, there's just no denying it.

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So that was a big lesson for me.

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And in terms of, and I've been involved in animal rights, liberation, protection in various

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forms since then.

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And I have to say my heroes are pretty much anybody who speaks up on behalf of the animals,

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because it's not an easy place to be swimming against what most of society is doing.

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Thank you, Debbie.

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And finally, Edward.

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Yeah.

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So, Edward Fraser, I'm running for the Animal Protection Party of Canada in High Park Parkdale

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in the upcoming election.

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I came to veganism in a bit of a strange way.

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I had been a vegetarian for many, many years, kind of justifying that as being good enough.

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And of course, realized, of course, it's not.

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But I saw some advertising on the subway here in Toronto for the Fur Bears Association

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out of BC.

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And I naively thought to myself, well, they don't actually use fur anymore.

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That's barbaric.

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Did a bit of research and realized, yeah, there is still a somewhat what's called thriving

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fur industry and of course, with Canada Goose and all of those other types of coats that

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it actually made quite a comeback.

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So that was kind of my way of understanding that there needed a lot more to be done.

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So I transitioned to veganism at that point.

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Activism and the sport of animal rights causes group from there.

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And yeah, it's come to realize that these sort of industries still exist.

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It's necessary work that groups like the Animal Protection Party of Canada and Animal Justice

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and so many other groups that are fighting for animal rights.

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And then I'll just say that it's those people who do the work with those groups that are

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my heroes.

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A lot of the people who are out there like Earthling had like Mike mentioned and bringing

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awareness to the cause.

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I had to give respect to those people, but it's so many of the people who are doing the

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grassroots initiatives, getting to know Mike a little bit virtually through the means we've

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done with the party.

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The respect I have for somebody like him, it's so easy for me to do in my neighborhood

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where it's accepting.

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I see vegan stickers all over the place.

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I have access to all sorts of restaurants and resources.

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I have a community here.

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Mike is swimming upstream, like Debbie said in his area, and to fight the fight in those

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sort of conditions, all the respective world.

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Thank you, Edward.

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So Mike, you wanted to react to what Irene said.

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah, she was talking about Gary Francillon.

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I thought I'd add him.

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I liked my list because I write his stuff and I like him too.

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There's a couple of other good books I could recommend just because I'm going to have to

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go on in a few minutes.

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There's one I really like.

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It's called Eternal Treblinka by Charles Patterson.

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I don't know if you guys have read or heard of this one.

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But he's a Jewish animal rights activist.

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It's sort of like the same idea as Alex Hirschhaft.

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He wrote that book and I found it really powerful.

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It talks about the sources of discrimination and oppression and those mentalities and how

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they sort of infect or poison everything in society.

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There's another good one I like.

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There's a couple of books called Dominion, but this one is called Dominion Power of Man

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and it's by this guy, Matthew Scully.

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This one is more directed for like arguing for animal rights from a religious perspective.

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So that's I always found because I'm not religious at all.

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Talking to religious people during street outreach is one of the more difficult cells.

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So trying to find common ground with them is kind of tough.

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I've noticed that religious people tend to be more likely to stop and watch and want

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to have a conversation with you when you're doing a cube of truth.

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And so I figured trying to come up with some good arguments to sort of meet them where

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they are.

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This book was good for me for that.

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So for anyone who wants to, you need help like to learn how to outreach with more religious

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people, specifically the Dominionist for the Christian people.

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Thank you for the recommendation, Spank.

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Those are two great authors that I truly love.

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Since you have to go soon, Edward mentioned how this is an upstream battle for you.

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Tell me more about that.

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It's so difficult about talking about animal protection, animal rights in Newfoundland.

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Yes.

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So the culture in Newfoundland is a little bit different than the rest of Canada.

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So Newfoundland used to be its own country until around World War II.

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Let me double check the exact year I used to have this memorized.

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Yeah, 1949 is when Newfoundland joined Canada.

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For them, they were their own country.

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So there's a lot of nationalistic pride specifically for Newfoundland.

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We have a separatist party and everything.

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And the culture, so they're very proud of their culture.

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And specifically though, being an island, it's very heavily based on fishing and hunting

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and the seal hunts as well.

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So that's a big part of most Newfoundlanders' identities.

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And they're always trying to, they're all obsessed with the fishery, trying to defend

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it.

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A lot of people, it's their full identity.

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It's exploiting and using animals as bait into the culture.

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And they're sensitive about it too.

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They feel like they're somehow persecuted by the rest of the world.

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They're misunderstood about it, like ignorant, towny people.

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Sort of.

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Anyway, the point is that you're considered, like for being a vegan here, you're almost

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considered a cultural traitor to the Newfoundland culture.

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Like you're directly fighting against the most important things in Newfoundlanders'

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identity and culture to go against the fishery and the seal hunt specifically.

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It's just a ridiculous, political issue.

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And that's all it is now.

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It's just, yeah, almost like the nonsense that you got going in the states, like where

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the Republicans and Democrats are like completely polarized.

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It's just random stuff.

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And you have to fall in line with one extreme or the other.

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I don't know.

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It's sort of like gun control or something.

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I don't know much about it, but I think Republicans are like, the worst evil ever is to take your

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guns away.

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But I'm not sure exactly, but it feels like that.

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So when we do seal hunt protests, it's just a lot more tense and the hostility is way

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higher than if we do a Cuban truth, Gritual slaughter, house footage, or do a vigil out

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in front of the country or been chicken death camp.

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It's like even though we're opposing all of animal agriculture, which obviously would

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include the seal hunt, they're less incensed by that than when we do seal on protest directly

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where you get people screaming at us and shouting or threatening violence, that kind

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of thing, or trying to call the cops and stuff.

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But yeah, so I guess it's like that.

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I feel the culture here is less progressive because the sort of little bit isolationist.

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And because of their history with the seal hunt and just hunting and fishing in general.

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So it's a very up here little battle here, but more so than other places I visited.

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I lived in Portugal for five years.

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And even though a lot of new fine culture is actually based on old Portuguese culture,

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because they were always sending the fishing boats over here.

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But they even have some similar dishes like the Jigs dinner we have here, which is traditionally

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they have like a dead piece of turkey or but a lot of vegetables like greens and turnips

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and they have gravy and stuff that's based on a Portuguese dish.

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But even so, it's like night and day with the animal rights community in Portugal is

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so much bigger and so much better organized and tight knit there.

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And they have like a lot of good events and demos all across the country.

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And they're more like they're more accepted.

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They have a political party as well called the pan.

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And they had recently won that like they have proportional representation as well over

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there.

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And they had the seats in Parliament.

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And like the party leader for pan was able to bring motions to ban bullfighting.

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And even though they didn't get past the bullfighting in Portugal very similar to the

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seal hunt here in terms of culture and their like obsession with cultural identity and

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stuff.

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So but he was able to bring that to Parliament and make some really good arguments like and

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we do but we did bullfighting protests over there too.

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And there was a lot more people at the bullfight protests than there would ever be at a seal

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hunt protest here.

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Even though it was like done outside of Coliseum's and they had people screaming at them and

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yelling and hostility.

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But they also had some supportive people.

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I don't know if you might imagine the southern United States.

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Fulturally like they're very conservative there and you would imagine that they're like

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pro hunting and very against animal rights more than like more liberal parts of the States.

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I feel it's like that the version of that in Canada is new from.

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I understand better.

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Yes.

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Thank you Mike.

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Thank you.

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Interesting.

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Yes.

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Thanks.

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Yes.

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Very interesting.

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I have lots of American listeners and I wonder if we could talk about the state of animal

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welfare in Canada.

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So maybe we could you could maybe give a mark to Canada like on 10 what would be Canada's

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great in terms of animal protection laws and you know compared to other countries maybe

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if you have experience living elsewhere.

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Like how would you describe Canada in terms of you know animal welfare and maybe we could

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start with Liz.

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Probably not very high between one and 10 one being bad and 10 being good.

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The biggest area is animal agriculture and as we experience people going into various

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places and documenting the immense cruelty that happens in these places in these private

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farms which are usually the big large farms and how little is done to rectify the situations

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in those places and then being faced with ag-gag legislation so that there's big penalties

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if somebody does go into a farm and document even if they document the extreme cruelty

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even if the film shows you know the enormous terrible cruelty that goes on with these animals.

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It's the people who get prosecuted and not the farmer and so you know when you talk about

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volume probably Canada isn't as bad as the United States because the farms aren't as

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large I mean some dairy farms in the States are 100,000 cows whereas in Canada you know

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they're not that large but you know I sat through a court case with where the Canadian

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Food Inspection Agency took Maple Dodge farms to court over cruelty to the animals that

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were being delivered to the slaughterhouse and so it was you know they kill almost half

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a million chickens a day and some of those are spanned hens and some of them come from

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very long distances including from the United States and so you look at these situations

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and you think that Canada really on the animal agriculture side has not done a lot.

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However I say under the Trudeau government and I say this cautiously they have passed

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legislation that would ban the use of animals in cosmetic testing and the products that

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are tested from elsewhere are now banned in Canada.

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That's pretty low hanging fruit you know I started working on that in 1990 and so you

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know it's taken until 2023 to get that legislation passed but they have done other stuff they've

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banned strict nine in Canada they've banned and they're in the process of looking at banning

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the trade in horses to Japan for for live slaughter so you know it isn't that things

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haven't happened it's just that the volume of cruelty is so large that these small advances

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are appeared to be really small so you know we still have lake old trapping we still drown

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beavers with connoisseur traps in and and lake old traps we still use for we still do

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horse racing we do all the various things we use animals for our own purposes and really

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that dynamic which is what we're trying to change has not changed a great deal yet but

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it's a it's a big fight.

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Thank you Liz.

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Debbie?

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Just to kind of pick up a little bit where on what Liz said there's this kind of little

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piecemeal approach to improving you know the protection of animals in our country Canada

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is actually notorious for having some of the poorest animal protection laws in the developed

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world and one of the issues is we have this whole big long list of what are called accepted

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activities and it's pretty much every possible use of animals that you can imagine that are

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exempt from our protection laws as long as standard codes of practice are followed so

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this is why you can euthanize big quotation marks around euthanize baby pigs by taking

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them by their hind legs and slamming their head into the concrete but if you did the

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same thing to a puppy or a kitten you would be charged with cruelty to animals and it

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makes no sense like our laws should be based on science and not emotion so it makes no

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sense that only the animals that we are emotionally attached to as our companion animals get a

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modicum of protection meanwhile science tells us that all animals are equally capable of

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suffering.

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So I think we would make a huge step forward if we got rid of those accepted activities

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and animals under the law are considered right now just to be property and there's a big

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push for the government to at least recognize them as sentient beings.

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Thank you Debbie.

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Edward, so what grade would you give Canada?

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Yeah, I'm a bit more of a pessimist.

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I'd give it is can you give an F minus?

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Is that possible?

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I mean I don't think Canada is alone in that.

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I mean I would think every country around the world gets a failing grade but what gives

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me hope is individuals and the fight and that you can make a small difference as an individual

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or a small group.

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Yeah, wide scale change is the goal but by not eating meat for one meal you're making

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a difference you're helping to save an animal's life.

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So while I don't I haven't seen in my 20 years of being kind of aware of these issues

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haven't seen a lot of political movements some tokenism stuff as Liz spoke about sure

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but yeah I mean that's why the critical areas and this is why I was motivated to get involved

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with the political party that's where change is going to be effective is at the political

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level and at the legal level and so if we can win court cases to change laws that's

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when people's opinions are going to change when people's widespread opinion change that's

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when political gains are made.

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So we're a ways off but that's why grassroots movement, grassroots activism and individual

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actions still matter.

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It's such a huge, huge issue and there's so much room to go it can feel overwhelming

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but every individual action even if you're not a vegan if you choose to go meatless for

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a week if you choose to buy a faux leather jacket instead of a leather jacket all these

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small actions by many many individuals add up to a big thing.

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Thank you Edward.

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Irene?

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As far as giving Canada a grade I agree we're way down the list but the thing is that all

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around the world going back to what Debbie was talking about when her encounter with

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the calf is that if you were born a dog in North America your prospects are way different

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than if you were a dog born in South Korea or China because there dogs are eaten.

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So all around the world we use animal every culture uses animals from nose to tail in

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all different and horrible ways.

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But one of my interests is transitioning factory farms to other uses and I came across

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something the other day that's happening in the states it's called the, it's been put

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forth by Cory Booker of course who's a vegan and also James McGovern and it's called the

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Industrial Agriculture Conversion Act in the US and it's giving looking for federal support

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for converting farms from animal agriculture and that I would love to see it's called

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transforming and you've probably heard the term but it's really taken my interest because

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it's the same as in the fossil fuel industry there's this big whoa oh my god all the oil

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workers are going to lose their jobs.

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Well they don't necessarily have to, they may lose that job but hey they can get another

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job in a green industry.

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Now whether they want to or not I don't know but again looking back historically when the

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internal combustion engine came along what happened to all the buggy whip makers?

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What about all the horseshoe, the blacksmith who did the horseshoes?

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Well guess what they found something else to do so that's something that I'm really

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looking forward to taking these farm buildings that are already there, taking these farmers

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who are up to their eyeballs in debt and beholden to the big chicken producers and enabling

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them to transition out of that and make use of their land and their buildings to more

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green and more healthy options.

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So thanks.

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Thank you Irene and I should say on a positive note that South Korea has passed a law to

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ban the slaughter and trade of dog meat but the ban will only take effect in 2027.

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Liz you wanted to react to Edward's point.

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I was just going to say that I think Edward paid a really good point and but I was going

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to say the thing that we need to do is to move Canada into a proportional representation

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voting system.

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The current system will not allow us to elect anybody to Parliament unless it's some like

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outlier somewhere that happened just to be in the right place at the right time.

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It's just not possible.

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Everything in the Canada Elections Act is stacked against us getting elected and so

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when you look at places like the Netherlands which has probably the largest vegan animal

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rights party party for the animals with representation throughout government levels that they have

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been able to pass much more progressive legislation and have even greater discussions about what

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changes need to be made.

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And in fact there's a revolt by the dairy farmers there because there's discussion about

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beginning to wrap up dairy farming practices.

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And so we would barely be able to have that discussion here.

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So I think we've been involved with the spring tide and fair voting BC who are now in the

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appeals court trying to get proportional representation.

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They'll be going to the Supreme Court and we intend to intervene there to see if we

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can actually get the Supreme Court to consider change.

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It's a big gift but I think it's really worth the fight and if even we get some better practices

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we might be able to make greater progress.

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00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:11,840
I mean our wonderful candidates who run know that they're doing outreach and talking to

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people which I do as well when I run as a candidate but knowing that they are going

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to get elected and it takes a real strong committed person to take on that role and

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go out and talk to people and knowing that you're probably going to be bottom of the

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00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:39,120
list when all of the politics that we talk about not only affects all the animals but

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affects us because of the contribution to the greenhouse gases which animal agriculture

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00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,080
is huge.

391
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:54,960
And quickly Liz, for those who don't know what is a proportional representation?

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It means that people who vote, every vote is counted.

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So it depends on the type of proportional representation.

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In Canada we've talked about the single transferable vote which is one way and the others we've

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00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,400
talked about mixed member proportional.

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00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:23,280
Both of those are much more inclusive of actually calculating how people vote and then how they're

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allocated to the final outcome of the election.

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And the provinces who have looked at proportional representation, I think British Columbia has

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00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:40,480
been through it twice, Ontario at least once, have set the bar so high.

400
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:47,200
You know it wasn't a 50 plus one vote, it was 60 percent and the vote, the latest vote

401
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,120
in BC I think was about 58 or 59 percent.

402
00:33:50,120 --> 00:34:00,000
So it was very, very close but they were unable to make the higher levels.

403
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,080
So I think the challenge is when politicians are in parliament they don't want to give

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00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,200
it up.

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00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,240
When they're out of parliament they talk about proportional representation as the Trudeau

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00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:15,720
and other politicians and when they're in they think maybe not I want to hold on to my

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seat, I don't want to share it.

408
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:25,960
Yes, it was a promise of the Trudeau first electoral campaign and I did vote for him

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00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,280
because of that.

410
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,560
I remember that very clearly.

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00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,000
Edward, you wanted to add something.

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00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,800
For those who are interested in getting a little more information on farming transition

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00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:44,040
there was a really easily digestible news item on the NBC News Report, actually in the

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00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:50,880
U.S. about a farmer who is using a grant for mercy for animals to change from a livestock

415
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:58,040
farm to an organic vegetable farm and how amazing that's been for him and how that can

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00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,040
be accomplished.

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00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:07,960
So I'd encourage people to look that up because it shows what impact that can have on individual

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farmers and how that is a viable option for people who might be involved in the livestock

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00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,240
industry now and hoping to get out of it.

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Thank you Edward.

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00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:19,240
Debbie?

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00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:24,240
I just wanted to add if anybody's really interested in learning more about proportional representation

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00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:30,600
I would recommend going to Fair Vote Canada and you can do a real deep dive there and

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00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:36,160
get involved with the movement to achieve a proper representation in the country.

425
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,160
Thank you Debbie.

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00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,040
I will add the link to Fair Vote Canada in the episode's notes.

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00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,880
Liz?

428
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Just two quick things.

429
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:53,280
First, I'm happy to share the links with the Fair Voting, BC and Springtide.

430
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,280
They do regular reports about what money they're raising, how the court cases went, what the

431
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,280
issues are that were being discussed, all that sort of stuff.

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00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,400
So Rayanne, I'll send it to you and maybe you can add it in.

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00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:19,360
The second thing is we have in Canada, in Quebec, I think, a farmer who's promoting

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00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,960
vegan farming.

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00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,000
And he's written a book.

436
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:35,440
He's run a workshop just recently and he's amazing because he has incorporated the entire

437
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:43,560
environment around his farm into the production of vegetables, which is what he does.

438
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,160
This is veganic, but he doesn't use any animal fertilizer.

439
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,160
So it's all minimally tilled.

440
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,960
It's a really interesting thing.

441
00:36:51,960 --> 00:37:01,160
So I'll send you a link to his website and that's where the vegan farming issue began

442
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:07,840
was in the Netherlands, around all that progressive thinking with Party for the Animals and others

443
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,840
there.

444
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,480
Thank you, Liz.

445
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,680
I did not know about this farmer in the same province where I'm based.

446
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,760
I would love to visit his farm this coming summer.

447
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:27,120
Okay, so since we are on the topic of politics, let's talk about politics.

448
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:34,960
Liz, this is your second time on the podcast and the first episode we recorded together

449
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,560
was very impactful to me.

450
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:48,040
It really made me rethink animal rights activism and what it should look like and the importance

451
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,200
of politics in all of that, in that equation.

452
00:37:53,200 --> 00:38:02,120
So all of you, I'm under the presumption that all of you agree with that, that politics

453
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:09,040
are a priority in advancing the cause of animal protection.

454
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:19,280
So I guess I would like to hear your best argument for getting more involved in politics

455
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:29,200
in every level of government as an animal rights activist, as a vegan.

456
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,600
So who would like to start?

457
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:31,720
Irene, maybe?

458
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:37,120
Well, I confess I am a novice in the political arena.

459
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:54,400
I guess I was on a call the other day and the speaker was talking about sort of from

460
00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:02,800
the highest levels of government down from the federal, provincial, local, municipal.

461
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:11,600
And basically his argument was that especially at the higher levels, and I know Liz can speak

462
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:17,440
to this much more eloquently than I can, but that at the higher levels, even say this

463
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:25,640
bill in the states that Cory Booker is sponsoring, they're going to run into all kinds of stonewalling

464
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:36,360
and they're actually kill committees where their job is to kill the bill, delay the bill.

465
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,680
So all of these things happen at the higher levels.

466
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:51,240
And this speaker was saying that where he works at a state level, he has forged relationships

467
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:59,080
with politicians on the lower levels and his argument was even if you don't agree with

468
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:06,680
what the person, like they may be a hunter, but they may not agree with trophy hunting.

469
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:13,680
They may love, they may be a meat eater, but they love cats and dogs.

470
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:20,800
And so if you can find any type of relationship with these individuals without alienating them,

471
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:28,920
then you have a basis with which to move forward with your agenda.

472
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:36,160
And so I'm taking that, like again, where I live, there's a huge meat packing plant,

473
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:37,480
meat slaughterhouse.

474
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:43,360
10,000 pigs a day are killed in Burlington.

475
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,040
And yet I feel powerless.

476
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:53,440
I don't know that I can actually stop this legitimate enterprise from, I mean, it's free

477
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,440
country.

478
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,680
They're a profit making organization.

479
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,640
They provide jobs in the community.

480
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:06,920
But the only way that I could possibly do anything with that would be if the city of

481
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:14,200
Burlington makes some sort of law that outlaws that type of activity.

482
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:20,160
So as I say, I'm not really terribly averced on this on the subject, but I'm passionate.

483
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,720
So I'll let others speak.

484
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,640
No, you're bringing some very pertinent points.

485
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,960
I love, love, love that approach.

486
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:37,160
I think we tend to antagonize and make an enemy out of hunters, out of farmers, out

487
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,800
of the list goes on.

488
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:45,800
Instead of looking at, like you said, ways of creating building relationships with those

489
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,040
actors, with those people.

490
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,800
Edward, you wanted to react.

491
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,720
I think it's an excellent point.

492
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:57,880
I've always taken an approach of killing with kindness.

493
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,840
Of course, people can't see my quote marks on this audio podcast.

494
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:11,080
But when you can reach people on a level and make them understand that, because for a standard

495
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:17,120
person who, as my wife and I have often said it, when we were where we were pre-veganism

496
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:23,520
was plugged into the matrix, it's hard to get out of that because our entire society

497
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,640
is built on animal agriculture.

498
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:33,440
But if you can make people realize that even a small difference can have a huge impact,

499
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:34,440
they're more willing to make that.

500
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,160
And then if you take that first step, making the second and third and fourth and fifth

501
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,280
step is much, much easier.

502
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:46,400
To answer your question about politics, you don't need to be a politician.

503
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,440
And I would, of course, be reticent to call myself a politician even though I'll be running

504
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,360
in an election.

505
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,600
You can just be a professional pain in the ass.

506
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,000
That's where I was at before aligning with the party.

507
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:08,160
I would constantly be pestering my municipal and provincial and federal representatives

508
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:16,440
to try to make change to what effect, debatable, even getting a response is sometimes difficult.

509
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:24,080
But especially at the municipal level, I have a slaughterhouse that I unfortunately often

510
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:31,600
smell at the stockyards, which is just on the border here of the Hyde Park, Parkdale,

511
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,600
riding.

512
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:42,200
And to me, I'm not going to be able to win that war probably on an animal rights or compassion

513
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:49,040
basis, but the smell that it produces.

514
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:55,680
I've talked to lots of people who are carnivores who say, what is that smell?

515
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,680
And I'm always happy to let them know exactly what it is.

516
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:08,320
And I think the vast majority of people would be in favor of shutting that down, or at least

517
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,800
in their mind, moving it so that it wasn't a little nimbyism.

518
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,360
Maybe I don't mind it if it happens because I still want my hamburger, but I don't want

519
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:17,360
to smell.

520
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,480
And if I can shut that down based on that, I don't care how it gets done.

521
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:28,520
So taking alternative approaches to finding ways to get policy change on the municipal

522
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,600
level can be an effective way.

523
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:41,160
You have to try to reach people on their level, and you can't get people to go from zero to

524
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:42,660
ten overnight.

525
00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:44,160
That's not going to happen for most people.

526
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:50,560
If you can get people to just make small changes, I've always found that to be a much more effective

527
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,800
way to get people to change.

528
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,240
Yes, I absolutely agree, Edward.

529
00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:06,160
And even if you vote for a measure for that slaughterhouse to stop emitting that smell,

530
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:12,040
and because of that measure, they need to renovate the building, we're talking about

531
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:18,240
extra costs that either way from that margin of profit that this industry makes.

532
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,560
So sure, that's also a victory.

533
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:22,560
Demi?

534
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:28,800
There's often a discussion as to where we should be focusing on individual change versus

535
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,120
systemic change.

536
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,640
And I think we need both.

537
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,480
And running for the party to me is a way of working on systemic change.

538
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:45,160
I've been a member of the animal alliance forever, and a member of the animal protection

539
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,600
party of Canada since its inception.

540
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,560
Liz had gone on a cross-entry tour.

541
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:55,880
This was a pre-pandemic trying to recruit new candidates, and at the time I thought,

542
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:01,880
you know, there's no way I have the time or the sources to actually fund.

543
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,280
But then I learned about being a paper candidate, which essentially just gave your name on the

544
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,160
ballot, and I thought, you know, I can do that.

545
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,480
So I got my name on the ballot.

546
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:17,560
But what it ended up getting into was a paper candidate test, which was on the ballot.

547
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,320
I had people reach out to me to take part in some debates.

548
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,200
I was part of a student forum.

549
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:29,560
One of the high schools in my writing, they had asked all the parties to bring a lawn

550
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,120
sign there, and they had the students investigate, like, research the party.

551
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:42,560
So I was able to reach a whole lot more people in a way I have never done so before by being

552
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,400
a paper candidate.

553
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:51,960
And when the dust all settled after the election, I was last in my writing in terms of votes.

554
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,640
But in the student election, I was third from last.

555
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:02,940
So to me, that was a very interesting lesson that it's going to be the young folks who

556
00:47:02,940 --> 00:47:07,520
have more on the line in terms of things, climate change that are going to take more

557
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:12,440
interest and hopefully move the needle forward to the animals here in Canada.

558
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,440
Thank you, Debbie.

559
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:14,440
Liz?

560
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:21,080
I think in Canada, we do very little education about politics.

561
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:27,760
We don't really talk about how politics works in Canada, what's different between the federal

562
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,520
level, the provincial level, and the municipal level.

563
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,080
Why are all three there?

564
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,160
We're now having a discussion in Ontario about interference by the provincial government

565
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:44,440
into municipal politics when we elect people at the city level.

566
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:50,400
The provincial level is telling our politicians in the city level how to run the city.

567
00:47:50,400 --> 00:48:02,240
And so I think our party offers an opportunity for younger people who are, I guess, finding

568
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:08,120
it difficult to look at the situation and wonder why change can't happen.

569
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:13,400
People write to me all the time and say, I wrote to my politician about this, that,

570
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,760
or other issue and nothing has happened.

571
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:26,280
Because I think people think that they can simply write a letter or click on a petition

572
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,800
or do whatever and the issue will be dealt with.

573
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,720
So very few people that I know have actually met with their politicians have actually sat

574
00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:37,840
down and had a conversation with them.

575
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:44,920
And you can agree to disagree with the person, but you can have a perfectly friendly talk.

576
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:52,200
And I think our party provides people with the opportunity to actually do that and to

577
00:48:52,200 --> 00:49:00,160
actually begin to navigate the political system that we have, because it's very complicated.

578
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:05,480
And it takes a long time to learn actually how to do that, to actually permeate the political

579
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,920
parties on Parliament Hill.

580
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,600
It's like storming the barracks.

581
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,920
You can't, you know, it's very, very hard to get in to talk to people.

582
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:23,040
So and most people are lovely and reasonable and want to hear you and maybe even want to

583
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,040
help you.

584
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,160
But if you can't get to talk to them personally, it makes it very, very difficult.

585
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:36,960
So the, we, in the last, in the last, just the last point politically, we had to deal

586
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:44,480
with the cosmetic issue ban on cosmetic animal testing, which is actually done federally

587
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,960
because of the, of the testing and the cosmetics.

588
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:55,800
So we were managed to put together a coalition of people, including the industry.

589
00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,920
And those were animal rights people, those were people who produced animal rights products,

590
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Lush and the Body Shop, and, and then we had a very sympathetic minister, the Honourable

591
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:13,200
Jean-Yves DuClo, who allowed us access to it and participated in the whole process.

592
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:14,840
And so it got done.

593
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,080
But you know, it took 30 years to do it.

594
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:23,600
So it just happened that those all aligned that made it possible.

595
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:32,160
You have been a few now mentioning, you know, younger people and Liz, you also mentioned

596
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,760
actions that people take online.

597
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:43,040
And there was something I realized from looking at the animal protection party, you know, I

598
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:48,880
looked at your social media, there are thousands of people, you know, following you, engaging

599
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:56,520
with you on social media platforms, yet, you know, relatively to, to that following, there

600
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:03,240
are very few, a few number of candidates, you know.

601
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:11,560
So I wonder why, you know, why are we, why are those people captured by social media

602
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:20,760
and not able to, you know, engage in a true meaningful way with the nonprofit they support

603
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:21,760
in theory?

604
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,760
Are you asking me?

605
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:24,760
Sure.

606
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,760
I mean, anyone.

607
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,200
I don't want, I don't want to occupy the conversation, but no, go ahead.

608
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,880
I think there are several reasons why.

609
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:42,440
First of all, I think younger people are much busier than maybe some of us who some of us

610
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,880
have retired, some of us are, you know, anyway.

611
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:53,280
So I think it's because they're busy, they have to make enough money to support if they

612
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,200
have a family and all that sort of stuff.

613
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:03,920
Secondly, I think the barrier is, which is what I talked about is that most people don't

614
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:12,920
understand that in order to make real change for animals, we have to talk to the politicians.

615
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:18,960
They're the ones that make the decision about who dies, who lives, who is used in research,

616
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:26,560
how they're used, what kind of extreme cruelty can be applied to them in what is considered

617
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:31,000
an acceptable way by, by society.

618
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:36,120
Most people don't know what is actually happening.

619
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:43,440
And so, although they support an organization that does it, they may not want to be specifically

620
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,440
involved.

621
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:53,000
And that's why I look to like Pan in that we were talking about and Party for the Animals,

622
00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:00,720
because they have been able to garner a much younger group of people to actually run politically

623
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:08,440
and, and I think it's, we have still have an uphill battle to make that change.

624
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,640
And so it makes it much more difficult to attract people.

625
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:19,360
I'm very, very, very glad that people are part of the organization, are supporting us

626
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,680
in many ways, including in donations.

627
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:29,880
But you know, they may not have decided that it's something they feel like they could really

628
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:30,880
do.

629
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:35,480
I would encourage them to do it because in the end, it can be lots of fun.

630
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,200
I talk to all kinds of people.

631
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:44,480
We have great arguments, you know, very friendly or, or agreements or whatever.

632
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,320
And we get to talk about all kinds of things.

633
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,040
We get to debate in front of all candidates meetings.

634
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,880
We get to talk to a huge crowd.

635
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,280
I went to one in Thornhill.

636
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,600
The number of people there were about 350.

637
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:02,960
I was the only odd ball there because I talked about things that nobody else would want to

638
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:03,960
talk about.

639
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,520
But anyway, a bunch of people in the crowd came up and said that they really enjoyed

640
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,040
it and that they would give it some thought.

641
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:14,520
So you, you realize that the outreach is very, very different.

642
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:19,720
But I think, you know, the learning curve in terms of how politics works in this country

643
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:25,120
is something that we really need to work on, particularly with younger people.

644
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,320
So they realize the importance of running.

645
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:28,320
Thank you, Liz.

646
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:29,320
Edward.

647
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,680
I mean, I think we could probably do an entire show or maybe even a 12 part series on, on

648
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,040
youth and politics.

649
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,000
But I think it comes down to a couple of things.

650
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:49,160
I think when you're younger, you don't realize the true path towards change will come through

651
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:54,000
political and legal roads.

652
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:59,480
If you're passionate about something, because there's an instant gratification that comes

653
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:07,520
through protesting things like vigils, things like that, that you don't get that from the

654
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,800
political realm.

655
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:16,280
But as you get older, maybe you get a little bit wiser, that you come to realize these

656
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,720
things, at least that that's the way it was for me.

657
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:22,720
And I suspect that is the way it is for a lot of people.

658
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:30,560
But I would say to anybody who is listening, it can definitely seem intimidating.

659
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:37,320
And I think in our current political climate, it's also very easily to get disillusioned

660
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,640
by the process and to think it doesn't matter.

661
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:53,080
But for me, just knowing that there was somebody out there who shared my vision, who shared

662
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,760
my hopes, you know, void my spirits.

663
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:02,240
And I think that people can appear even as a paper candidate for the party.

664
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:09,600
So if you're passionate about animal rights, just be on the ballot, because just seeing

665
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:14,280
that that name on the ballot makes a huge difference.

666
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:19,320
It makes people realize that there are others out there who share those same views.

667
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:25,000
And even if it gets one or two or three people to think, wow, what is this?

668
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,120
I want to look into it more.

669
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,200
It makes a big difference, because I know for me, I just when I was voting in the last

670
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:37,480
election, it was provincial election, but I got thinking, well, there must be a party

671
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,000
out there, and that's what led me to find this road.

672
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:46,600
And you know, I wasn't expecting much, but when I dug in and looked at the party platform,

673
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:53,600
I was blown away, blown away by how well presented it is, by how thoroughly thought

674
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,800
out it is, how well worded it is.

675
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,040
And so if you can get others just to make those connections by seeing a name on the

676
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:06,480
ballot, doing a bit of research to reading more to getting more, it really does all those

677
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,120
small steps can really build to something big.

678
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:14,960
So I would encourage anybody who might be interested, you know, look into it a little

679
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:15,960
bit.

680
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:21,040
And if you're just appears a paper candidate, because it really can with with not a whole

681
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,200
lot of effort make a very big difference.

682
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:29,200
Yes, the unexpected consequences of just, you know, putting your name out there.

683
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:35,400
And you know, I also loved what Debbie was saying about how this promoted the cause.

684
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:40,280
And she got invitation to various places like schools.

685
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:41,280
Irene.

686
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:50,440
Yes, this is a little bit of an outlier comment, but one of the stand up comedians in the late

687
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,520
night talk show was talking about the US Thanksgiving coming up.

688
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:59,640
And he said, Oh, yes, and you'll, you'll gather with the family and that one person who suddenly

689
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:07,520
went vegan, you know, made that kind of comment that ridicule comment about veganism.

690
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:14,560
And I'm brought to mind about that quote that was attributed to my high McGonagy, but apparently

691
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:20,120
it isn't actually his quote, but first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they

692
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,240
fight you, and then you win.

693
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:30,880
And that's in terms of what, what, excuse me, what Liz was talking about, that this

694
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,800
cosmetic change was like 30 years in the making.

695
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:39,720
But yeah, first they laugh at you, then they ridicule you, then they attack you.

696
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:41,040
And guess what?

697
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:42,560
Then you make progress.

698
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,600
So this is a long game.

699
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:51,680
And unfortunately, you know, these things do take time, but what else are we going to

700
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:52,680
do?

701
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,440
And that's the common, that's the sentiment shared by most of the people who are in this,

702
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:03,480
in this movement is if we, if we do nothing, then the animals will continue to suffer.

703
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:11,880
We have to do what we can at whatever level we can to make life better for, for the whole

704
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,360
world, but especially for the animals.

705
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:15,360
Yes.

706
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:23,640
And using, you know, business vocabulary, we're investing it into a future and to, you

707
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:25,680
know, a future profit.

708
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,840
And that profit is a world without animal exploitation.

709
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:29,840
Liz?

710
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:36,520
I guess the last thing I think I would say on this issue is that we have actually a pretty

711
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:42,760
big community who are out there doing all sorts of different things, promoting the idea

712
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:49,520
of veganism and animal eliminating animals from our culture of exploitation.

713
00:59:49,520 --> 01:00:00,520
So we, we need to find a way to incorporate all the actions of all those people into the

714
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,120
political party.

715
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:08,840
And I say that by way of, for example, the people who are out bearing witness to the

716
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:18,760
pigs at fearmans and to the cows, the, the, called dairy cows at St. Helens near Edward

717
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,400
that they collect data for us.

718
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:28,040
They demonstrate, they can show what, what do the cows actually look like in the truck?

719
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:35,640
How are the pigs actually doing in a temperature of 85 degrees in a, in a metal can with a

720
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,640
bunch of pigs there?

721
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:38,880
How is all that happening?

722
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:46,120
We can use that information collectively to put into the party, offer and begin to approach

723
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:50,920
government about those issues, which we've, we've now started to do.

724
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,800
There's people who are collecting the condition of the cows that are going into Helens, which

725
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,600
are pretty terrible with the CFIA and with the federal government.

726
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,000
So we'll see if we can make some progress on that.

727
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:09,320
But we have a big community and we need to find a way to connect everybody so that we,

728
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,880
so that we work together on all of these issues.

729
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:19,640
And that way we'll begin to magnify the kinds of things that we're talking about politically

730
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:20,640
speaking.

731
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:21,640
Yes.

732
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:23,880
Great point.

733
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:31,320
Which also brings me to the topic of the constituents, you know, the people who are going to vote

734
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:37,800
for the, for the party and for this cause.

735
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:42,520
Do we have an idea of the profile of those people?

736
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,840
Do vegans, you know, are vegans active in politics?

737
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:52,960
Should they be more, you know, are they the ones, you know, who go and vote?

738
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:59,680
Are they the ones who will be behind you, you know, supporting you?

739
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:05,600
I think that the problem is that the vegan community is very small in comparison to the

740
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,280
entire population.

741
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:19,080
So it's very difficult to actually specifically identify how many vegans live in, say, the

742
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:20,800
riding that I ran in.

743
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,880
I know that there are people there, but I wouldn't know how many, I wouldn't know where

744
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:29,120
they are necessarily.

745
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:34,640
So I think what we need to do is look at the whole riding.

746
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:41,800
This is what we've done before, to evaluate how to move votes.

747
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:48,360
What you want to do is evaluate ridings where the votes are swing.

748
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,400
So this is a riding that doesn't necessarily vote liberal all the time or conservative

749
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:53,880
all the time.

750
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,480
And they, they switch back and forth and the margins are narrow.

751
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:06,200
And so we've done a number of studies in communities where that happens.

752
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,760
And what you find, if you can, if you're able to measure it, which is really important

753
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:16,400
to do is that you can actually move votes from one party to another, and you can make

754
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:23,160
the argument to move to the animal protection party of Canada, if not for, as a reason of

755
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:28,800
being vegan, but for saving the planet for your kids or whatever the argument is.

756
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:37,120
So we really need to understand how to move these votes and how to actually appeal to

757
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:44,720
those people in the riding who are prepared to change their vote between elections or

758
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,080
in, during elections.

759
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:53,720
So it's, I think it's very difficult to actually figure out the, the vegan aspect of it.

760
01:03:53,720 --> 01:04:03,160
I know there are ridings like Parkdale and that have a lot of vegan resonance.

761
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:08,840
And there are some in, in my writing, but most people don't know how many there are

762
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:14,840
and where they live and whether they vote, how old they are, what their, you know, economic

763
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:21,040
income is or whatever profile you might have on them are, they don't know anything really

764
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:22,400
about them.

765
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:27,120
And so I think it's very difficult to target because just specifically on that.

766
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:28,120
Thank you, Liz.

767
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:29,120
Debbie?

768
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,640
I would encourage anybody listening to the podcast to please go to the animal protection

769
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:40,320
party of Canada's website and see that it's not just strictly engaging vegan topics,

770
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:44,720
you know, we have positions on things like education, for example.

771
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:52,680
So it's not just that narrow sort of focus and it's estimated that perhaps like three

772
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:59,000
parts of the population is vegan, but I think we also appeal to those who are, they're very

773
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:00,200
much all the environment.

774
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:05,960
You know, if you hear anything about the current catastrophe, the entire focus is on fossil

775
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:13,520
fuels and nobody is really discussing the negative impacts of animal agriculture and

776
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:19,680
chemicals far, far beyond just the amount of greenhouse gases that it contributes.

777
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:26,520
It's like environmental degradation, habitat species laws, freshwater, water, pollution,

778
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,320
ocean acidification, dead zones.

779
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,400
It's leading to antibiotic resistance.

780
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:39,200
It's checking off all the boxes for conditions that will lead to the next pandemic.

781
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:44,880
And it's got like huge native human health impacts in 2019.

782
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:51,560
Canada created the current Canada Food Guide, which was produced by scientists and scientists

783
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:56,600
and three research and history influence.

784
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:02,280
And it shows the diet that's optimum for our human health is one that's done it with whole

785
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,780
plant foods.

786
01:06:04,780 --> 01:06:10,080
A lot of people would be surprised to know that billions of dollars continue to subsidize

787
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:16,840
animal agriculture and we need to shift those subsidies and make those foods that keep us

788
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:22,080
healthy, those whole plant foods, affordable and available to all.

789
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:28,360
So we would result in drastically reduced healthcare costs.

790
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:34,200
So there's all these other issues that come into play that people care about.

791
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:39,560
Just like an animal rights issue, there's all these other factors that come in.

792
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:43,880
This is very much a straight kind of system.

793
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:49,400
And we need to make big changes if we want to keep this planet healthy for everyone.

794
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,960
I think are attracted by that as well.

795
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:53,680
Yes, really good point.

796
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:54,680
Edward?

797
01:06:54,680 --> 01:07:03,320
I think as politics becomes more and more polarizing, I think people, well, I shouldn't

798
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:08,360
say I think I hope people will start to look to alternatives.

799
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:16,400
And I think that those alternatives will hopefully manifest in proportional representation

800
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:24,640
because as we've all learned at all political levels, minority governments are aware actual

801
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:29,400
change that the people want, get made.

802
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,880
And proportional representation is like that on steroids.

803
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,520
It's where every voice is heard.

804
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:40,400
And that's why this party has invested so heavily in trying to affect that change is

805
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:47,320
because really that's where the will of the people will be manifested.

806
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:53,320
And even in small groups, and it's not just people who are interested in specifically

807
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:54,560
this topic.

808
01:07:54,560 --> 01:08:01,720
It's people who are passionate about any number of things should be behind, should get fully

809
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:06,960
behind proportional representation because in the current system, first past post, one

810
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:12,560
group is going to, for the vast majority of times, going to hold all the power and a majority

811
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:17,920
of the people within the population is not going to have their voices heard.

812
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,040
Whereas in proportional representation, everybody gets a piece of the pie.

813
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:30,000
So that to me is where not only for veganism and for animal rights, but for all causes,

814
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:34,080
that's where you're going to see the real political change.

815
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:39,920
So it is unfortunate that as we discuss the people in power, of course, are the ones who

816
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,920
make the decision at the time and they never want to change because they go and stay in

817
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:43,920
power.

818
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:51,080
But I think, well, again, I say I think when I really mean hope, I hope that one day the

819
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:57,320
people will eventually reach that critical line where they decide, no, we need to have

820
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:01,360
our voices heard and we need to have all our voices heard and the best way to do that is

821
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:03,480
through proportional representation.

822
01:09:03,480 --> 01:09:08,800
Yes, not just the politicians, the constituents too.

823
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:16,960
I remember when, I think in the second electoral campaign when Trudeau was against the conservative,

824
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:23,240
projections showed that if we had the proportional representation, he would have lost.

825
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:32,960
And many liberals, I know, were happy actually that he did not implant those reforms, those

826
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:40,120
democratic reforms, because that would have meant a victory for the conservative party.

827
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,120
Debbie?

828
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:47,040
Well, I just wanted to add that the Green Party is probably the most readily recognized

829
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:52,840
as having the strongest position on the environment, but even they are not calling for a major

830
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,840
transition in our food system.

831
01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:01,680
So it has been joked that the animal protection party of Canada is greener than greens.

832
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,440
It's very true, very true.

833
01:10:04,440 --> 01:10:12,800
The reason why I bring the topic of constituents is partly because, you know, in light of the

834
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:22,800
recent Republican victory in the US, I have realized that, and let me know what you think,

835
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:33,120
but that the animal rights movement has not done a good job at gaining constituents like

836
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,920
allies among conservatives.

837
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:42,720
And, you know, I was thinking about what Mike said in the beginning of the podcast.

838
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:50,200
He talked about how conservative the people were in Newfoundland.

839
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:58,320
He also mentioned Mattius Colley, who is this, you know, very mainstream conservative.

840
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:05,200
He was a speechwriter for many Republican presidents, and he's also an animal rights

841
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:13,040
advocate, you know, a vegan, and who has written extensively on the conservative argument for

842
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,040
veganism.

843
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:25,680
And I feel like maybe we're missing on a whole pool of army of possible allies.

844
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:27,040
And so what do you think?

845
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:34,120
Do you think that we could be doing a better job at appealing to a more conservative audience?

846
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:40,280
Yeah, who wants to take that, Debbie?

847
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:45,160
I think we have to think about where these conservative folks are getting their information

848
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:49,480
from, and it's certainly not from wonderful podcasts like yourself.

849
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:54,320
And mainstream media is just not carrying this message.

850
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:58,680
They are being funded by, you know, people who are paying for the ads, which tends to

851
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:02,560
be counter-use of youth industries.

852
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:07,080
And we have less resources to be able to capture that.

853
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:14,120
We have, for example, here in Winnipeg, it can be very hard to get any kind of space

854
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:16,120
on buses.

855
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:20,800
If you manage to get any space on the buses, they really want to loot the message.

856
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:26,760
So we have a uphill battle in terms of just getting the message out there to people who

857
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:27,760
aren't hearing it.

858
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:28,760
Thank you, Debbie.

859
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:29,760
Liz?

860
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:36,320
My message to everybody is we have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in politics.

861
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:40,760
So it very much depends on each situation.

862
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:50,600
When I first got into going to Ottawa, I was put on a committee by the then agriculture

863
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:56,960
minister to look at the issue of the import of puppies from the United States into Canada.

864
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:59,760
And at that time, there were about 20,000 coming in.

865
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,760
This is way back in the early 1990s.

866
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:04,680
The minister was Bill McKnight.

867
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:12,000
He was, by all accounts, a pretty hardcore conservative, but he loved dogs.

868
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:18,040
And we sat on that committee with all of the importers and the people who were selling

869
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,120
them and all that sort of stuff.

870
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:21,640
Nobody wanted any changes.

871
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:28,200
And I was the one person on the committee that was talking about an alternative.

872
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:35,680
And he got so frustrated that he simply signed a directive to the border authorities that

873
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:42,800
they were not to import any puppies that were genetically compromised or where there was

874
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,440
an infection, the entire truck would have to be turned back.

875
01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:51,000
Now that had serious implications for the dogs on the trucks, the puppies.

876
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:57,360
So we had to approach people at the border to see if we could get them properly handled.

877
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:04,160
But it meant that the number of dogs coming across the border was dropped from 20,000 down

878
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:08,200
to under 7,000 just in that one activity.

879
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:12,040
So there are allies in every party.

880
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:19,040
The question is, we don't have the same kind of resources as the agricultural community,

881
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:23,560
and they affect many more riding, so it makes it much more difficult.

882
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:29,520
But occasionally, if you don't fight with them, I'm trying very hard not to fight with

883
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:34,000
some of the conservatives because I disagree with some of their other policies.

884
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,120
But nonetheless, we have to talk to them.

885
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:43,640
If Pierre Pollyev gets elected, we have to go through that party and find out who we

886
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:44,640
can talk to.

887
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:46,440
Who is it that we can get in and see?

888
01:14:46,440 --> 01:14:52,000
Who is it that we can actually ask to do even a private members bill to get it discussed

889
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:54,800
on the legislature?

890
01:14:54,800 --> 01:15:02,720
So I think we just don't make enemies, and we probably don't have a lot of friends, but

891
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:07,640
we need all of those capacities to actually make change.

892
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,040
Yes, I completely agree.

893
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:19,120
And more than in the higher level of politicians, even the constituents, those politicians are

894
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:26,600
elected by people, and if we show that those people care about animals, they will be more

895
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,000
inclined to listen to us.

896
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:30,000
Edward?

897
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,800
I think you make a really interesting point about the opportunities that are there to

898
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:42,120
make gains within the conservative side because there are people who are religious, do tend

899
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:48,480
to have conservative meanings.

900
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:55,040
So there are opportunities there that can be reached, but I think one thing that we often

901
01:15:55,040 --> 01:16:09,600
lose sight of as people in the animal rights community is that we can make gains in our

902
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:16,880
interests when we try to support other issues that might not be germane to this specific

903
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:18,200
topic.

904
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:24,000
So what I mean by that is that we're probably all privileged in our lives in that we're

905
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:32,920
not fighting day to day to keep ourselves and our families afloat because when that's

906
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:37,320
the case, as it is with a lot of people, a lot of people, and that number is growing

907
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:43,760
because of the wage divide, you don't have a lot of time to fight for others because

908
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:45,520
you're fighting for yourself.

909
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:51,920
So when we prop up people, whether that be through universal basic income, other measures

910
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:58,440
to make sure that people aren't scraping by, they have more time for things that they're

911
01:16:58,440 --> 01:16:59,440
passionate about.

912
01:16:59,440 --> 01:17:07,360
Because I think a lot of people, if they have their eyes open to what's going on, they're

913
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:15,040
probably going to be more motivated to either take action or at least take steps.

914
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:21,920
But when you can go to the grocery store and you can buy subsidized meat for cheaper than

915
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:27,160
you can fresh vegetables, what are you going to buy when you're just trying to keep your

916
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,200
family alive?

917
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:36,600
So things that aren't specific to our cause, they're still within what we should be fighting

918
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:40,840
for because they eventually lead to what will help our cause.

919
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:45,720
And I think that sometimes that gets lost because, again, it feels so mountainous what

920
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:50,200
we're climbing, what we're trying to achieve, but small gains in other ways can have big

921
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:54,360
impacts on what we're trying to do.

922
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:55,360
Thank you, Edward.

923
01:17:55,360 --> 01:18:02,000
It makes me think of recording, I mentioned how I work in the fundraising philanthropic

924
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:11,240
world and a donation is classified as a luxury expense, actually.

925
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:16,680
So when you donate to an organization, you're actually, it's a luxury, it's considered a

926
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:22,120
luxury, which I find interesting in which it goes your point.

927
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:29,520
Irene, we haven't listened to you answer for a moment now.

928
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:33,600
Did you want to add something to this whole conversation?

929
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:42,720
Well, as I said before, I'm a bit of a novice at this, so I can't speak so knowledgeably,

930
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:49,920
but I am so much in favor of allyship, that this is the way we're going to get things

931
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,840
done.

932
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:56,160
Just a word about, I know we're talking about politics, but one of the, when you asked at

933
01:18:56,160 --> 01:19:06,120
the very beginning about who are our heroes and how do we get into this whole movement,

934
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:15,880
I have changed my outlook from the Gary Francione abolitionist stand, which is, we have to end

935
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:20,120
all animal use 100% around the world.

936
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:24,160
But unfortunately, that's just not going to happen.

937
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:31,400
And so my position now is, I think we're calling pragmatic veganism.

938
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:39,080
And that is, if you take 100 people and 10 of them go completely vegan overnight, no

939
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:41,040
animal use whatsoever.

940
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:50,160
And the other 90 people take a more flexitarian report, they do meatless Mondays, they reduce

941
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:56,640
their animal use of animals, who's going to make the most difference to the animals?

942
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:00,160
Well, it's going to be the 90 people, not the 10.

943
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:07,400
And we talk about luxury, we're the luxurious ones, we're the vegans who are happily vegan,

944
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:13,400
and we don't have any type of mental conflict over it.

945
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:18,000
The other 90 let them work through it.

946
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:26,600
But they are our allies, they're not our opposition, they are our allies, and we need to encourage

947
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:31,080
them in every way, including political.

948
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:37,160
I was at the Burlington VegFest for the last several years, and Liz has been kind enough

949
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,960
to sponsor me there, a booth.

950
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:45,840
And I can't tell you the number of people who come up to the table and say, I didn't

951
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:47,520
know there was a party.

952
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:48,960
Wow, tell me more.

953
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:57,240
Of course, I hand out the booklet and I talk them up and I get on the mailing list.

954
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:03,160
But again, how does that translate into actually going into the voting booth and voting?

955
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:06,000
And again, I think that happened in the States.

956
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:10,720
Everybody was expecting, especially I as a feminist was expecting all the young women

957
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:12,000
to turn out.

958
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:18,640
They didn't turn out, and that was a great loss for the USM for the world.

959
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,440
So I have a rambling comment there.

960
01:21:21,440 --> 01:21:23,440
Thank you, Irene.

961
01:21:23,440 --> 01:21:25,440
Yes, Edward?

962
01:21:25,440 --> 01:21:34,080
I just think that's so well said by Irene about allyship and being able to make difference

963
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:35,080
through outreach.

964
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:42,880
I see it firsthand as I was out recently with a group of friends.

965
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,560
We were at a restaurant, not a vegan restaurant, just a regular restaurant.

966
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:50,720
And one of the guys came in and he said, well, I guess I'm having the veggie burger.

967
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:52,120
And I said, well, why is that?

968
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:58,080
He said, well, I was on the subway and I saw a white one and another poster where you've

969
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:00,200
got the pig juxtapose against the puppy.

970
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:04,520
And he said, well, I can't eat a burger now.

971
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:05,880
I got to have a veggie burger.

972
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:07,360
So it shows that it works.

973
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:11,600
Those things all work and all those small measures add up to big things because that

974
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:15,240
was one less animal on a plate that night.

975
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:20,200
It sounds cliche, but when I got into this, I thought to myself, if I can change just

976
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:24,920
one person's mind or even change just one meal, then I'll have had a made a difference.

977
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:31,640
And if you think if we can get people all across the country signing up to the party,

978
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:36,840
and each riding eventually fingers crossed the goal, the amount of difference, all those

979
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,920
small actions will make.

980
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:43,200
It's really heartwarming to think of what that could eventually be.

981
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:44,320
Thank you, Edward.

982
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:50,800
And that makes me think I want to give a shout out to on behalf of animals, it's another

983
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:57,720
podcast hosted by some very good friends.

984
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:03,080
And in one episode, you know, they interviewed the lobbyist and he said an animal rights

985
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:12,000
lobbyist and he said, you need to meet those politicians and constituents with confidence

986
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:15,840
because our cause is a righteous cause.

987
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:22,200
And I do feel that at my core, you know.

988
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:25,560
So yeah, Mike, you're back.

989
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:26,560
Welcome back.

990
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:30,160
Just in time.

991
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:34,400
Just in time for, you know, wrapping this up.

992
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:35,400
Thank you everyone.

993
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:42,480
Thank you so much for all of your, you know, insights for sharing your experience.

994
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:50,000
Anything that you want to add anything before we end this recording.

995
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:51,000
Last chance.

996
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:52,000
Yes, baby.

997
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:59,520
Oh, I think thank you for your interest in the party and inviting us onto your podcast.

998
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:05,680
And the last word I want to leave for all your listeners is a quote by a wonderful

999
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:12,560
artist, Megan, who was killed by a transport truck carrying pigs at a video.

1000
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:15,840
And she said, doing nothing does no good.

1001
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:21,720
So I encourage everybody to do they can no action for the animals is too small or too

1002
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:22,720
big.

1003
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:23,720
Thank you.

1004
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:24,720
Thank you.

1005
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:25,720
Thank you.

1006
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:26,720
Thank you.

1007
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:27,720
Thank you.

1008
01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:28,720
Thank you.

1009
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:29,720
Thank you.

1010
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:30,720
Thank you.

1011
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:31,720
Thank you.

1012
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:32,720
Thank you.

1013
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:33,720
Thank you, Debbie.

1014
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:34,720
Mike.

1015
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:35,720
Yes.

1016
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:36,720
Yes.

1017
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:37,720
I was thinking of one more.

1018
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:38,720
Activists I'd like to include.

1019
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:39,720
So there was a.

1020
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:40,720
Buddhist monk.

1021
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:41,720
And philosopher named.

1022
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:42,720
Deacon.

1023
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:44,720
Who died a couple of years ago.

1024
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:49,720
And as far as like a philosophy goes, I would say I'm.

1025
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:53,720
He was a very nice guy.

1026
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:55,720
And I was a very nice guy too.

1027
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,720
And I think he was just like I, I like.

1028
01:24:58,720 --> 01:24:59,720
Buddhist ideas.

1029
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:03,720
So he was one of my favorites.

1030
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:05,720
Like I use a lot of quotes from him as, as well.

1031
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:06,720
And I do outreach.

1032
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:07,720
Yeah.

1033
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,720
And he has, they've made a film about his life.

1034
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:12,720
I think it's called walk with me.

1035
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:14,720
I would recommend that as well.

1036
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:16,720
It's about mindfulness and.

1037
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:17,720
And stuff.

1038
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:25,000
he was a vegan as well and that was part of his non-violence philosophy.

1039
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:30,440
Thank you, Mike. As a Buddhist, I truly appreciate this comment. Yes, Irene?

1040
01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:43,560
I just wanted to quote, give this quote from another, it was part of a talk that I was involved in

1041
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:50,280
and it basically says, although non-human animals should have some rights, the term

1042
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:55,880
rights can be emotive and negative, turning off listeners before you are even able to make your

1043
01:25:55,880 --> 01:26:02,520
point. Think about gun rights, reproductive rights, civil rights. These terms can resonate or repulse

1044
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:08,360
depending on your audience. You cannot get your point across if nobody's listening.

1045
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:15,880
Thank you. Thank you, Irene, for this. Again, thank you so much, everyone. And I truly wish that,

1046
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:23,640
you know, success and lots of votes for this upcoming election. Thank you, everyone, for listening.

1047
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:29,560
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people

1048
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:45,480
to take action. Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.