Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.
Today I want to show you what the world of politics looks like at its best.
When it is embodied by hopeful, passionate and inspiring leaders who dare to dream of
a more compassionate world.
A rare kind of politics light years away from the small world of calculating cynical and
power hungry politicians.
Today we are talking to the candidates of the Animal Protection Party of Canada who
share with us tales of their uphill battle against a system that keeps them locked outside
the centres of power.
Their names are Liz White, Edward Fraser, Deborah Wall, Irene Kay and Mike Peach.
Welcome everyone, thank you so much for being here.
So happy to see you all.
Let me start with this icebreaker question.
Can you please state your name and also talk about your vegan or animal rights hero?
Yes, so I can start.
My name is Mike Peach.
I'm from St. John's, Newfoundland and I've been vegan and animal liberation activist
for about 10 years now.
So yes, I guess it's hard to say I'm a vegan or animal liberation activist.
I'm a hero but there's a couple I like.
I like Melanie Joy.
I don't know if you've heard of her.
She's a clinical psychologist and she's the one who came up with the term chironism to
explain the belief system that most people in society get indoctrinated into from a
young age which makes them prejudiced against certain species of animals considered food.
So she explains how it's a learned behavior and all the parallels with other systematic
forms of oppression and discrimination.
She has a really good TED talk that I like.
It's usually the first thing that I recommend people watch when I do street outreach.
And then there's a couple other common ones that most people like.
I like Gary or Obsky.
There's Joey Karbstrong and Earthling Ed.
I like Earthling Ed too.
I want to try to figure out how to set up where they do the tables and then they just
sit down and invite people to come chat with them.
I think that's a good form of street outreach too.
Wonderful.
Thank you, Mike.
I will add the link to her TED talk in the episode notes.
Liz?
So my name's Liz White.
I'm the leader of the animal protection party of Canada.
I started in the became an animal rights activist and in the late 1980s or early 1990s was at
the Toronto Humane Society, got fired from there for having perhaps two radical thoughts
along with some of the other people there, which was quite funny, but it allowed us to
form animal alliance.
And then in 2005, the Supreme Court ruled that the election elections act, Ken Elections
Act needed to be amended to allow smaller parties to be able to actually form properly
and participate in elections.
And so in 2005, 2006, we formed the animal protection party of Canada.
And so we've been around for about 18 years, I guess.
The barriers in the act for small parties mean that they will never really be able to
participate in a way that the party for the animals does, for example, in the Netherlands,
where they actually are able to elect people to all levels of government, including the
European Parliament.
So we're looking at legislative changes and to the act.
But of course, the act is controlled by the large parties who have their own interests,
which is not to add any political parties to the mix.
And so it'll be an uphill battle, but we're looking at some of the avenues to actually
break down some of those barriers.
Thank you, Liz.
Irene?
Yes, I'm Irene Kay.
I'm in Burlington, Ontario, and I will be running as a candidate for the animal protection
party when the next federal election rolls around.
I have two heroes.
One is Gary Francione, who I discovered when I very first went vegan.
And I loved his argument that basically, if most people would agree that it's wrong to
harm an animal unnecessarily, and that if you take that to its logical extension, because
we don't need animals to live, we don't need to eat animals to live, then any killing of
an animal is unnecessary.
And his main argument, he's a legal scholar, and his main argument from a legal point of
view is that as long as animals continue to be classed as property, then there's no
– all animal welfare laws in the world are not going to help them.
And as it stands now, most of the animal welfare laws do not cover the vast majority of farmed
animals that we raise and slaughter for food.
My other hero is Will Tuttle.
And his famous book is World Peace Diet.
Again, I read that 10 years ago when I first went vegan.
I literally wept on every page because he writes so poetically and so movingly about
the plight of animals, especially the plight of the female animals, because it's an exploit.
Basically animal husbandry is exploitation of the female, the female chicken, the female
pig, the female cow.
And the most abused animal on the planet is the dairy cow.
Thank you, Irene.
Debbie, your turn.
Thank you all, and I ran for the Animal Protection Party of Canada in 2021.
I became the first Manitoba to represent the party.
And I had my aha moment in 1978 when I was attending pre-vector classes at the University
of Manitoba.
And we went to the annual Aggie Bash, and I happened to see a little calf.
And when I went over to say hi to them, they licked my face, and I realized, you're no
different than a dog.
And another thing I realized is that we as humans are capable of all kinds of mental
gymnastics to justify all kinds of horrible things that we do to animals.
But once something touches your heart, there's just no denying it.
So that was a big lesson for me.
And in terms of, and I've been involved in animal rights, liberation, protection in various
forms since then.
And I have to say my heroes are pretty much anybody who speaks up on behalf of the animals,
because it's not an easy place to be swimming against what most of society is doing.
Thank you, Debbie.
And finally, Edward.
Yeah.
So, Edward Fraser, I'm running for the Animal Protection Party of Canada in High Park Parkdale
in the upcoming election.
I came to veganism in a bit of a strange way.
I had been a vegetarian for many, many years, kind of justifying that as being good enough.
And of course, realized, of course, it's not.
But I saw some advertising on the subway here in Toronto for the Fur Bears Association
out of BC.
And I naively thought to myself, well, they don't actually use fur anymore.
That's barbaric.
Did a bit of research and realized, yeah, there is still a somewhat what's called thriving
fur industry and of course, with Canada Goose and all of those other types of coats that
it actually made quite a comeback.
So that was kind of my way of understanding that there needed a lot more to be done.
So I transitioned to veganism at that point.
Activism and the sport of animal rights causes group from there.
And yeah, it's come to realize that these sort of industries still exist.
It's necessary work that groups like the Animal Protection Party of Canada and Animal Justice
and so many other groups that are fighting for animal rights.
And then I'll just say that it's those people who do the work with those groups that are
my heroes.
A lot of the people who are out there like Earthling had like Mike mentioned and bringing
awareness to the cause.
I had to give respect to those people, but it's so many of the people who are doing the
grassroots initiatives, getting to know Mike a little bit virtually through the means we've
done with the party.
The respect I have for somebody like him, it's so easy for me to do in my neighborhood
where it's accepting.
I see vegan stickers all over the place.
I have access to all sorts of restaurants and resources.
I have a community here.
Mike is swimming upstream, like Debbie said in his area, and to fight the fight in those
sort of conditions, all the respective world.
Thank you, Edward.
So Mike, you wanted to react to what Irene said.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, she was talking about Gary Francillon.
I thought I'd add him.
I liked my list because I write his stuff and I like him too.
There's a couple of other good books I could recommend just because I'm going to have to
go on in a few minutes.
There's one I really like.
It's called Eternal Treblinka by Charles Patterson.
I don't know if you guys have read or heard of this one.
But he's a Jewish animal rights activist.
It's sort of like the same idea as Alex Hirschhaft.
He wrote that book and I found it really powerful.
It talks about the sources of discrimination and oppression and those mentalities and how
they sort of infect or poison everything in society.
There's another good one I like.
There's a couple of books called Dominion, but this one is called Dominion Power of Man
and it's by this guy, Matthew Scully.
This one is more directed for like arguing for animal rights from a religious perspective.
So that's I always found because I'm not religious at all.
Talking to religious people during street outreach is one of the more difficult cells.
So trying to find common ground with them is kind of tough.
I've noticed that religious people tend to be more likely to stop and watch and want
to have a conversation with you when you're doing a cube of truth.
And so I figured trying to come up with some good arguments to sort of meet them where
they are.
This book was good for me for that.
So for anyone who wants to, you need help like to learn how to outreach with more religious
people, specifically the Dominionist for the Christian people.
Thank you for the recommendation, Spank.
Those are two great authors that I truly love.
Since you have to go soon, Edward mentioned how this is an upstream battle for you.
Tell me more about that.
It's so difficult about talking about animal protection, animal rights in Newfoundland.
Yes.
So the culture in Newfoundland is a little bit different than the rest of Canada.
So Newfoundland used to be its own country until around World War II.
Let me double check the exact year I used to have this memorized.
Yeah, 1949 is when Newfoundland joined Canada.
For them, they were their own country.
So there's a lot of nationalistic pride specifically for Newfoundland.
We have a separatist party and everything.
And the culture, so they're very proud of their culture.
And specifically though, being an island, it's very heavily based on fishing and hunting
and the seal hunts as well.
So that's a big part of most Newfoundlanders' identities.
And they're always trying to, they're all obsessed with the fishery, trying to defend
it.
A lot of people, it's their full identity.
It's exploiting and using animals as bait into the culture.
And they're sensitive about it too.
They feel like they're somehow persecuted by the rest of the world.
They're misunderstood about it, like ignorant, towny people.
Sort of.
Anyway, the point is that you're considered, like for being a vegan here, you're almost
considered a cultural traitor to the Newfoundland culture.
Like you're directly fighting against the most important things in Newfoundlanders'
identity and culture to go against the fishery and the seal hunt specifically.
It's just a ridiculous, political issue.
And that's all it is now.
It's just, yeah, almost like the nonsense that you got going in the states, like where
the Republicans and Democrats are like completely polarized.
It's just random stuff.
And you have to fall in line with one extreme or the other.
I don't know.
It's sort of like gun control or something.
I don't know much about it, but I think Republicans are like, the worst evil ever is to take your
guns away.
But I'm not sure exactly, but it feels like that.
So when we do seal hunt protests, it's just a lot more tense and the hostility is way
higher than if we do a Cuban truth, Gritual slaughter, house footage, or do a vigil out
in front of the country or been chicken death camp.
It's like even though we're opposing all of animal agriculture, which obviously would
include the seal hunt, they're less incensed by that than when we do seal on protest directly
where you get people screaming at us and shouting or threatening violence, that kind
of thing, or trying to call the cops and stuff.
But yeah, so I guess it's like that.
I feel the culture here is less progressive because the sort of little bit isolationist.
And because of their history with the seal hunt and just hunting and fishing in general.
So it's a very up here little battle here, but more so than other places I visited.
I lived in Portugal for five years.
And even though a lot of new fine culture is actually based on old Portuguese culture,
because they were always sending the fishing boats over here.
But they even have some similar dishes like the Jigs dinner we have here, which is traditionally
they have like a dead piece of turkey or but a lot of vegetables like greens and turnips
and they have gravy and stuff that's based on a Portuguese dish.
But even so, it's like night and day with the animal rights community in Portugal is
so much bigger and so much better organized and tight knit there.
And they have like a lot of good events and demos all across the country.
And they're more like they're more accepted.
They have a political party as well called the pan.
And they had recently won that like they have proportional representation as well over
there.
And they had the seats in Parliament.
And like the party leader for pan was able to bring motions to ban bullfighting.
And even though they didn't get past the bullfighting in Portugal very similar to the
seal hunt here in terms of culture and their like obsession with cultural identity and
stuff.
So but he was able to bring that to Parliament and make some really good arguments like and
we do but we did bullfighting protests over there too.
And there was a lot more people at the bullfight protests than there would ever be at a seal
hunt protest here.
Even though it was like done outside of Coliseum's and they had people screaming at them and
yelling and hostility.
But they also had some supportive people.
I don't know if you might imagine the southern United States.
Fulturally like they're very conservative there and you would imagine that they're like
pro hunting and very against animal rights more than like more liberal parts of the States.
I feel it's like that the version of that in Canada is new from.
I understand better.
Yes.
Thank you Mike.
Thank you.
Interesting.
Yes.
Thanks.
Yes.
Very interesting.
I have lots of American listeners and I wonder if we could talk about the state of animal
welfare in Canada.
So maybe we could you could maybe give a mark to Canada like on 10 what would be Canada's
great in terms of animal protection laws and you know compared to other countries maybe
if you have experience living elsewhere.
Like how would you describe Canada in terms of you know animal welfare and maybe we could
start with Liz.
Probably not very high between one and 10 one being bad and 10 being good.
The biggest area is animal agriculture and as we experience people going into various
places and documenting the immense cruelty that happens in these places in these private
farms which are usually the big large farms and how little is done to rectify the situations
in those places and then being faced with ag-gag legislation so that there's big penalties
if somebody does go into a farm and document even if they document the extreme cruelty
even if the film shows you know the enormous terrible cruelty that goes on with these animals.
It's the people who get prosecuted and not the farmer and so you know when you talk about
volume probably Canada isn't as bad as the United States because the farms aren't as
large I mean some dairy farms in the States are 100,000 cows whereas in Canada you know
they're not that large but you know I sat through a court case with where the Canadian
Food Inspection Agency took Maple Dodge farms to court over cruelty to the animals that
were being delivered to the slaughterhouse and so it was you know they kill almost half
a million chickens a day and some of those are spanned hens and some of them come from
very long distances including from the United States and so you look at these situations
and you think that Canada really on the animal agriculture side has not done a lot.
However I say under the Trudeau government and I say this cautiously they have passed
legislation that would ban the use of animals in cosmetic testing and the products that
are tested from elsewhere are now banned in Canada.
That's pretty low hanging fruit you know I started working on that in 1990 and so you
know it's taken until 2023 to get that legislation passed but they have done other stuff they've
banned strict nine in Canada they've banned and they're in the process of looking at banning
the trade in horses to Japan for for live slaughter so you know it isn't that things
haven't happened it's just that the volume of cruelty is so large that these small advances
are appeared to be really small so you know we still have lake old trapping we still drown
beavers with connoisseur traps in and and lake old traps we still use for we still do
horse racing we do all the various things we use animals for our own purposes and really
that dynamic which is what we're trying to change has not changed a great deal yet but
it's a it's a big fight.
Thank you Liz.
Debbie?
Just to kind of pick up a little bit where on what Liz said there's this kind of little
piecemeal approach to improving you know the protection of animals in our country Canada
is actually notorious for having some of the poorest animal protection laws in the developed
world and one of the issues is we have this whole big long list of what are called accepted
activities and it's pretty much every possible use of animals that you can imagine that are
exempt from our protection laws as long as standard codes of practice are followed so
this is why you can euthanize big quotation marks around euthanize baby pigs by taking
them by their hind legs and slamming their head into the concrete but if you did the
same thing to a puppy or a kitten you would be charged with cruelty to animals and it
makes no sense like our laws should be based on science and not emotion so it makes no
sense that only the animals that we are emotionally attached to as our companion animals get a
modicum of protection meanwhile science tells us that all animals are equally capable of
suffering.
So I think we would make a huge step forward if we got rid of those accepted activities
and animals under the law are considered right now just to be property and there's a big
push for the government to at least recognize them as sentient beings.
Thank you Debbie.
Edward, so what grade would you give Canada?
Yeah, I'm a bit more of a pessimist.
I'd give it is can you give an F minus?
Is that possible?
I mean I don't think Canada is alone in that.
I mean I would think every country around the world gets a failing grade but what gives
me hope is individuals and the fight and that you can make a small difference as an individual
or a small group.
Yeah, wide scale change is the goal but by not eating meat for one meal you're making
a difference you're helping to save an animal's life.
So while I don't I haven't seen in my 20 years of being kind of aware of these issues
haven't seen a lot of political movements some tokenism stuff as Liz spoke about sure
but yeah I mean that's why the critical areas and this is why I was motivated to get involved
with the political party that's where change is going to be effective is at the political
level and at the legal level and so if we can win court cases to change laws that's
when people's opinions are going to change when people's widespread opinion change that's
when political gains are made.
So we're a ways off but that's why grassroots movement, grassroots activism and individual
actions still matter.
It's such a huge, huge issue and there's so much room to go it can feel overwhelming
but every individual action even if you're not a vegan if you choose to go meatless for
a week if you choose to buy a faux leather jacket instead of a leather jacket all these
small actions by many many individuals add up to a big thing.
Thank you Edward.
Irene?
As far as giving Canada a grade I agree we're way down the list but the thing is that all
around the world going back to what Debbie was talking about when her encounter with
the calf is that if you were born a dog in North America your prospects are way different
than if you were a dog born in South Korea or China because there dogs are eaten.
So all around the world we use animal every culture uses animals from nose to tail in
all different and horrible ways.
But one of my interests is transitioning factory farms to other uses and I came across
something the other day that's happening in the states it's called the, it's been put
forth by Cory Booker of course who's a vegan and also James McGovern and it's called the
Industrial Agriculture Conversion Act in the US and it's giving looking for federal support
for converting farms from animal agriculture and that I would love to see it's called
transforming and you've probably heard the term but it's really taken my interest because
it's the same as in the fossil fuel industry there's this big whoa oh my god all the oil
workers are going to lose their jobs.
Well they don't necessarily have to, they may lose that job but hey they can get another
job in a green industry.
Now whether they want to or not I don't know but again looking back historically when the
internal combustion engine came along what happened to all the buggy whip makers?
What about all the horseshoe, the blacksmith who did the horseshoes?
Well guess what they found something else to do so that's something that I'm really
looking forward to taking these farm buildings that are already there, taking these farmers
who are up to their eyeballs in debt and beholden to the big chicken producers and enabling
them to transition out of that and make use of their land and their buildings to more
green and more healthy options.
So thanks.
Thank you Irene and I should say on a positive note that South Korea has passed a law to
ban the slaughter and trade of dog meat but the ban will only take effect in 2027.
Liz you wanted to react to Edward's point.
I was just going to say that I think Edward paid a really good point and but I was going
to say the thing that we need to do is to move Canada into a proportional representation
voting system.
The current system will not allow us to elect anybody to Parliament unless it's some like
outlier somewhere that happened just to be in the right place at the right time.
It's just not possible.
Everything in the Canada Elections Act is stacked against us getting elected and so
when you look at places like the Netherlands which has probably the largest vegan animal
rights party party for the animals with representation throughout government levels that they have
been able to pass much more progressive legislation and have even greater discussions about what
changes need to be made.
And in fact there's a revolt by the dairy farmers there because there's discussion about
beginning to wrap up dairy farming practices.
And so we would barely be able to have that discussion here.
So I think we've been involved with the spring tide and fair voting BC who are now in the
appeals court trying to get proportional representation.
They'll be going to the Supreme Court and we intend to intervene there to see if we
can actually get the Supreme Court to consider change.
It's a big gift but I think it's really worth the fight and if even we get some better practices
we might be able to make greater progress.
I mean our wonderful candidates who run know that they're doing outreach and talking to
people which I do as well when I run as a candidate but knowing that they are going
to get elected and it takes a real strong committed person to take on that role and
go out and talk to people and knowing that you're probably going to be bottom of the
list when all of the politics that we talk about not only affects all the animals but
affects us because of the contribution to the greenhouse gases which animal agriculture
is huge.
And quickly Liz, for those who don't know what is a proportional representation?
It means that people who vote, every vote is counted.
So it depends on the type of proportional representation.
In Canada we've talked about the single transferable vote which is one way and the others we've
talked about mixed member proportional.
Both of those are much more inclusive of actually calculating how people vote and then how they're
allocated to the final outcome of the election.
And the provinces who have looked at proportional representation, I think British Columbia has
been through it twice, Ontario at least once, have set the bar so high.
You know it wasn't a 50 plus one vote, it was 60 percent and the vote, the latest vote
in BC I think was about 58 or 59 percent.
So it was very, very close but they were unable to make the higher levels.
So I think the challenge is when politicians are in parliament they don't want to give
it up.
When they're out of parliament they talk about proportional representation as the Trudeau
and other politicians and when they're in they think maybe not I want to hold on to my
seat, I don't want to share it.
Yes, it was a promise of the Trudeau first electoral campaign and I did vote for him
because of that.
I remember that very clearly.
Edward, you wanted to add something.
For those who are interested in getting a little more information on farming transition
there was a really easily digestible news item on the NBC News Report, actually in the
U.S. about a farmer who is using a grant for mercy for animals to change from a livestock
farm to an organic vegetable farm and how amazing that's been for him and how that can
be accomplished.
So I'd encourage people to look that up because it shows what impact that can have on individual
farmers and how that is a viable option for people who might be involved in the livestock
industry now and hoping to get out of it.
Thank you Edward.
Debbie?
I just wanted to add if anybody's really interested in learning more about proportional representation
I would recommend going to Fair Vote Canada and you can do a real deep dive there and
get involved with the movement to achieve a proper representation in the country.
Thank you Debbie.
I will add the link to Fair Vote Canada in the episode's notes.
Liz?
Just two quick things.
First, I'm happy to share the links with the Fair Voting, BC and Springtide.
They do regular reports about what money they're raising, how the court cases went, what the
issues are that were being discussed, all that sort of stuff.
So Rayanne, I'll send it to you and maybe you can add it in.
The second thing is we have in Canada, in Quebec, I think, a farmer who's promoting
vegan farming.
And he's written a book.
He's run a workshop just recently and he's amazing because he has incorporated the entire
environment around his farm into the production of vegetables, which is what he does.
This is veganic, but he doesn't use any animal fertilizer.
So it's all minimally tilled.
It's a really interesting thing.
So I'll send you a link to his website and that's where the vegan farming issue began
was in the Netherlands, around all that progressive thinking with Party for the Animals and others
there.
Thank you, Liz.
I did not know about this farmer in the same province where I'm based.
I would love to visit his farm this coming summer.
Okay, so since we are on the topic of politics, let's talk about politics.
Liz, this is your second time on the podcast and the first episode we recorded together
was very impactful to me.
It really made me rethink animal rights activism and what it should look like and the importance
of politics in all of that, in that equation.
So all of you, I'm under the presumption that all of you agree with that, that politics
are a priority in advancing the cause of animal protection.
So I guess I would like to hear your best argument for getting more involved in politics
in every level of government as an animal rights activist, as a vegan.
So who would like to start?
Irene, maybe?
Well, I confess I am a novice in the political arena.
I guess I was on a call the other day and the speaker was talking about sort of from
the highest levels of government down from the federal, provincial, local, municipal.
And basically his argument was that especially at the higher levels, and I know Liz can speak
to this much more eloquently than I can, but that at the higher levels, even say this
bill in the states that Cory Booker is sponsoring, they're going to run into all kinds of stonewalling
and they're actually kill committees where their job is to kill the bill, delay the bill.
So all of these things happen at the higher levels.
And this speaker was saying that where he works at a state level, he has forged relationships
with politicians on the lower levels and his argument was even if you don't agree with
what the person, like they may be a hunter, but they may not agree with trophy hunting.
They may love, they may be a meat eater, but they love cats and dogs.
And so if you can find any type of relationship with these individuals without alienating them,
then you have a basis with which to move forward with your agenda.
And so I'm taking that, like again, where I live, there's a huge meat packing plant,
meat slaughterhouse.
10,000 pigs a day are killed in Burlington.
And yet I feel powerless.
I don't know that I can actually stop this legitimate enterprise from, I mean, it's free
country.
They're a profit making organization.
They provide jobs in the community.
But the only way that I could possibly do anything with that would be if the city of
Burlington makes some sort of law that outlaws that type of activity.
So as I say, I'm not really terribly averced on this on the subject, but I'm passionate.
So I'll let others speak.
No, you're bringing some very pertinent points.
I love, love, love that approach.
I think we tend to antagonize and make an enemy out of hunters, out of farmers, out
of the list goes on.
Instead of looking at, like you said, ways of creating building relationships with those
actors, with those people.
Edward, you wanted to react.
I think it's an excellent point.
I've always taken an approach of killing with kindness.
Of course, people can't see my quote marks on this audio podcast.
But when you can reach people on a level and make them understand that, because for a standard
person who, as my wife and I have often said it, when we were where we were pre-veganism
was plugged into the matrix, it's hard to get out of that because our entire society
is built on animal agriculture.
But if you can make people realize that even a small difference can have a huge impact,
they're more willing to make that.
And then if you take that first step, making the second and third and fourth and fifth
step is much, much easier.
To answer your question about politics, you don't need to be a politician.
And I would, of course, be reticent to call myself a politician even though I'll be running
in an election.
You can just be a professional pain in the ass.
That's where I was at before aligning with the party.
I would constantly be pestering my municipal and provincial and federal representatives
to try to make change to what effect, debatable, even getting a response is sometimes difficult.
But especially at the municipal level, I have a slaughterhouse that I unfortunately often
smell at the stockyards, which is just on the border here of the Hyde Park, Parkdale,
riding.
And to me, I'm not going to be able to win that war probably on an animal rights or compassion
basis, but the smell that it produces.
I've talked to lots of people who are carnivores who say, what is that smell?
And I'm always happy to let them know exactly what it is.
And I think the vast majority of people would be in favor of shutting that down, or at least
in their mind, moving it so that it wasn't a little nimbyism.
Maybe I don't mind it if it happens because I still want my hamburger, but I don't want
to smell.
And if I can shut that down based on that, I don't care how it gets done.
So taking alternative approaches to finding ways to get policy change on the municipal
level can be an effective way.
You have to try to reach people on their level, and you can't get people to go from zero to
ten overnight.
That's not going to happen for most people.
If you can get people to just make small changes, I've always found that to be a much more effective
way to get people to change.
Yes, I absolutely agree, Edward.
And even if you vote for a measure for that slaughterhouse to stop emitting that smell,
and because of that measure, they need to renovate the building, we're talking about
extra costs that either way from that margin of profit that this industry makes.
So sure, that's also a victory.
Demi?
There's often a discussion as to where we should be focusing on individual change versus
systemic change.
And I think we need both.
And running for the party to me is a way of working on systemic change.
I've been a member of the animal alliance forever, and a member of the animal protection
party of Canada since its inception.
Liz had gone on a cross-entry tour.
This was a pre-pandemic trying to recruit new candidates, and at the time I thought,
you know, there's no way I have the time or the sources to actually fund.
But then I learned about being a paper candidate, which essentially just gave your name on the
ballot, and I thought, you know, I can do that.
So I got my name on the ballot.
But what it ended up getting into was a paper candidate test, which was on the ballot.
I had people reach out to me to take part in some debates.
I was part of a student forum.
One of the high schools in my writing, they had asked all the parties to bring a lawn
sign there, and they had the students investigate, like, research the party.
So I was able to reach a whole lot more people in a way I have never done so before by being
a paper candidate.
And when the dust all settled after the election, I was last in my writing in terms of votes.
But in the student election, I was third from last.
So to me, that was a very interesting lesson that it's going to be the young folks who
have more on the line in terms of things, climate change that are going to take more
interest and hopefully move the needle forward to the animals here in Canada.
Thank you, Debbie.
Liz?
I think in Canada, we do very little education about politics.
We don't really talk about how politics works in Canada, what's different between the federal
level, the provincial level, and the municipal level.
Why are all three there?
We're now having a discussion in Ontario about interference by the provincial government
into municipal politics when we elect people at the city level.
The provincial level is telling our politicians in the city level how to run the city.
And so I think our party offers an opportunity for younger people who are, I guess, finding
it difficult to look at the situation and wonder why change can't happen.
People write to me all the time and say, I wrote to my politician about this, that,
or other issue and nothing has happened.
Because I think people think that they can simply write a letter or click on a petition
or do whatever and the issue will be dealt with.
So very few people that I know have actually met with their politicians have actually sat
down and had a conversation with them.
And you can agree to disagree with the person, but you can have a perfectly friendly talk.
And I think our party provides people with the opportunity to actually do that and to
actually begin to navigate the political system that we have, because it's very complicated.
And it takes a long time to learn actually how to do that, to actually permeate the political
parties on Parliament Hill.
It's like storming the barracks.
You can't, you know, it's very, very hard to get in to talk to people.
So and most people are lovely and reasonable and want to hear you and maybe even want to
help you.
But if you can't get to talk to them personally, it makes it very, very difficult.
So the, we, in the last, in the last, just the last point politically, we had to deal
with the cosmetic issue ban on cosmetic animal testing, which is actually done federally
because of the, of the testing and the cosmetics.
So we were managed to put together a coalition of people, including the industry.
And those were animal rights people, those were people who produced animal rights products,
Lush and the Body Shop, and, and then we had a very sympathetic minister, the Honourable
Jean-Yves DuClo, who allowed us access to it and participated in the whole process.
And so it got done.
But you know, it took 30 years to do it.
So it just happened that those all aligned that made it possible.
You have been a few now mentioning, you know, younger people and Liz, you also mentioned
actions that people take online.
And there was something I realized from looking at the animal protection party, you know, I
looked at your social media, there are thousands of people, you know, following you, engaging
with you on social media platforms, yet, you know, relatively to, to that following, there
are very few, a few number of candidates, you know.
So I wonder why, you know, why are we, why are those people captured by social media
and not able to, you know, engage in a true meaningful way with the nonprofit they support
in theory?
Are you asking me?
Sure.
I mean, anyone.
I don't want, I don't want to occupy the conversation, but no, go ahead.
I think there are several reasons why.
First of all, I think younger people are much busier than maybe some of us who some of us
have retired, some of us are, you know, anyway.
So I think it's because they're busy, they have to make enough money to support if they
have a family and all that sort of stuff.
Secondly, I think the barrier is, which is what I talked about is that most people don't
understand that in order to make real change for animals, we have to talk to the politicians.
They're the ones that make the decision about who dies, who lives, who is used in research,
how they're used, what kind of extreme cruelty can be applied to them in what is considered
an acceptable way by, by society.
Most people don't know what is actually happening.
And so, although they support an organization that does it, they may not want to be specifically
involved.
And that's why I look to like Pan in that we were talking about and Party for the Animals,
because they have been able to garner a much younger group of people to actually run politically
and, and I think it's, we have still have an uphill battle to make that change.
And so it makes it much more difficult to attract people.
I'm very, very, very glad that people are part of the organization, are supporting us
in many ways, including in donations.
But you know, they may not have decided that it's something they feel like they could really
do.
I would encourage them to do it because in the end, it can be lots of fun.
I talk to all kinds of people.
We have great arguments, you know, very friendly or, or agreements or whatever.
And we get to talk about all kinds of things.
We get to debate in front of all candidates meetings.
We get to talk to a huge crowd.
I went to one in Thornhill.
The number of people there were about 350.
I was the only odd ball there because I talked about things that nobody else would want to
talk about.
But anyway, a bunch of people in the crowd came up and said that they really enjoyed
it and that they would give it some thought.
So you, you realize that the outreach is very, very different.
But I think, you know, the learning curve in terms of how politics works in this country
is something that we really need to work on, particularly with younger people.
So they realize the importance of running.
Thank you, Liz.
Edward.
I mean, I think we could probably do an entire show or maybe even a 12 part series on, on
youth and politics.
But I think it comes down to a couple of things.
I think when you're younger, you don't realize the true path towards change will come through
political and legal roads.
If you're passionate about something, because there's an instant gratification that comes
through protesting things like vigils, things like that, that you don't get that from the
political realm.
But as you get older, maybe you get a little bit wiser, that you come to realize these
things, at least that that's the way it was for me.
And I suspect that is the way it is for a lot of people.
But I would say to anybody who is listening, it can definitely seem intimidating.
And I think in our current political climate, it's also very easily to get disillusioned
by the process and to think it doesn't matter.
But for me, just knowing that there was somebody out there who shared my vision, who shared
my hopes, you know, void my spirits.
And I think that people can appear even as a paper candidate for the party.
So if you're passionate about animal rights, just be on the ballot, because just seeing
that that name on the ballot makes a huge difference.
It makes people realize that there are others out there who share those same views.
And even if it gets one or two or three people to think, wow, what is this?
I want to look into it more.
It makes a big difference, because I know for me, I just when I was voting in the last
election, it was provincial election, but I got thinking, well, there must be a party
out there, and that's what led me to find this road.
And you know, I wasn't expecting much, but when I dug in and looked at the party platform,
I was blown away, blown away by how well presented it is, by how thoroughly thought
out it is, how well worded it is.
And so if you can get others just to make those connections by seeing a name on the
ballot, doing a bit of research to reading more to getting more, it really does all those
small steps can really build to something big.
So I would encourage anybody who might be interested, you know, look into it a little
bit.
And if you're just appears a paper candidate, because it really can with with not a whole
lot of effort make a very big difference.
Yes, the unexpected consequences of just, you know, putting your name out there.
And you know, I also loved what Debbie was saying about how this promoted the cause.
And she got invitation to various places like schools.
Irene.
Yes, this is a little bit of an outlier comment, but one of the stand up comedians in the late
night talk show was talking about the US Thanksgiving coming up.
And he said, Oh, yes, and you'll, you'll gather with the family and that one person who suddenly
went vegan, you know, made that kind of comment that ridicule comment about veganism.
And I'm brought to mind about that quote that was attributed to my high McGonagy, but apparently
it isn't actually his quote, but first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they
fight you, and then you win.
And that's in terms of what, what, excuse me, what Liz was talking about, that this
cosmetic change was like 30 years in the making.
But yeah, first they laugh at you, then they ridicule you, then they attack you.
And guess what?
Then you make progress.
So this is a long game.
And unfortunately, you know, these things do take time, but what else are we going to
do?
And that's the common, that's the sentiment shared by most of the people who are in this,
in this movement is if we, if we do nothing, then the animals will continue to suffer.
We have to do what we can at whatever level we can to make life better for, for the whole
world, but especially for the animals.
Yes.
And using, you know, business vocabulary, we're investing it into a future and to, you
know, a future profit.
And that profit is a world without animal exploitation.
Liz?
I guess the last thing I think I would say on this issue is that we have actually a pretty
big community who are out there doing all sorts of different things, promoting the idea
of veganism and animal eliminating animals from our culture of exploitation.
So we, we need to find a way to incorporate all the actions of all those people into the
political party.
And I say that by way of, for example, the people who are out bearing witness to the
pigs at fearmans and to the cows, the, the, called dairy cows at St. Helens near Edward
that they collect data for us.
They demonstrate, they can show what, what do the cows actually look like in the truck?
How are the pigs actually doing in a temperature of 85 degrees in a, in a metal can with a
bunch of pigs there?
How is all that happening?
We can use that information collectively to put into the party, offer and begin to approach
government about those issues, which we've, we've now started to do.
There's people who are collecting the condition of the cows that are going into Helens, which
are pretty terrible with the CFIA and with the federal government.
So we'll see if we can make some progress on that.
But we have a big community and we need to find a way to connect everybody so that we,
so that we work together on all of these issues.
And that way we'll begin to magnify the kinds of things that we're talking about politically
speaking.
Yes.
Great point.
Which also brings me to the topic of the constituents, you know, the people who are going to vote
for the, for the party and for this cause.
Do we have an idea of the profile of those people?
Do vegans, you know, are vegans active in politics?
Should they be more, you know, are they the ones, you know, who go and vote?
Are they the ones who will be behind you, you know, supporting you?
I think that the problem is that the vegan community is very small in comparison to the
entire population.
So it's very difficult to actually specifically identify how many vegans live in, say, the
riding that I ran in.
I know that there are people there, but I wouldn't know how many, I wouldn't know where
they are necessarily.
So I think what we need to do is look at the whole riding.
This is what we've done before, to evaluate how to move votes.
What you want to do is evaluate ridings where the votes are swing.
So this is a riding that doesn't necessarily vote liberal all the time or conservative
all the time.
And they, they switch back and forth and the margins are narrow.
And so we've done a number of studies in communities where that happens.
And what you find, if you can, if you're able to measure it, which is really important
to do is that you can actually move votes from one party to another, and you can make
the argument to move to the animal protection party of Canada, if not for, as a reason of
being vegan, but for saving the planet for your kids or whatever the argument is.
So we really need to understand how to move these votes and how to actually appeal to
those people in the riding who are prepared to change their vote between elections or
in, during elections.
So it's, I think it's very difficult to actually figure out the, the vegan aspect of it.
I know there are ridings like Parkdale and that have a lot of vegan resonance.
And there are some in, in my writing, but most people don't know how many there are
and where they live and whether they vote, how old they are, what their, you know, economic
income is or whatever profile you might have on them are, they don't know anything really
about them.
And so I think it's very difficult to target because just specifically on that.
Thank you, Liz.
Debbie?
I would encourage anybody listening to the podcast to please go to the animal protection
party of Canada's website and see that it's not just strictly engaging vegan topics,
you know, we have positions on things like education, for example.
So it's not just that narrow sort of focus and it's estimated that perhaps like three
parts of the population is vegan, but I think we also appeal to those who are, they're very
much all the environment.
You know, if you hear anything about the current catastrophe, the entire focus is on fossil
fuels and nobody is really discussing the negative impacts of animal agriculture and
chemicals far, far beyond just the amount of greenhouse gases that it contributes.
It's like environmental degradation, habitat species laws, freshwater, water, pollution,
ocean acidification, dead zones.
It's leading to antibiotic resistance.
It's checking off all the boxes for conditions that will lead to the next pandemic.
And it's got like huge native human health impacts in 2019.
Canada created the current Canada Food Guide, which was produced by scientists and scientists
and three research and history influence.
And it shows the diet that's optimum for our human health is one that's done it with whole
plant foods.
A lot of people would be surprised to know that billions of dollars continue to subsidize
animal agriculture and we need to shift those subsidies and make those foods that keep us
healthy, those whole plant foods, affordable and available to all.
So we would result in drastically reduced healthcare costs.
So there's all these other issues that come into play that people care about.
Just like an animal rights issue, there's all these other factors that come in.
This is very much a straight kind of system.
And we need to make big changes if we want to keep this planet healthy for everyone.
I think are attracted by that as well.
Yes, really good point.
Edward?
I think as politics becomes more and more polarizing, I think people, well, I shouldn't
say I think I hope people will start to look to alternatives.
And I think that those alternatives will hopefully manifest in proportional representation
because as we've all learned at all political levels, minority governments are aware actual
change that the people want, get made.
And proportional representation is like that on steroids.
It's where every voice is heard.
And that's why this party has invested so heavily in trying to affect that change is
because really that's where the will of the people will be manifested.
And even in small groups, and it's not just people who are interested in specifically
this topic.
It's people who are passionate about any number of things should be behind, should get fully
behind proportional representation because in the current system, first past post, one
group is going to, for the vast majority of times, going to hold all the power and a majority
of the people within the population is not going to have their voices heard.
Whereas in proportional representation, everybody gets a piece of the pie.
So that to me is where not only for veganism and for animal rights, but for all causes,
that's where you're going to see the real political change.
So it is unfortunate that as we discuss the people in power, of course, are the ones who
make the decision at the time and they never want to change because they go and stay in
power.
But I think, well, again, I say I think when I really mean hope, I hope that one day the
people will eventually reach that critical line where they decide, no, we need to have
our voices heard and we need to have all our voices heard and the best way to do that is
through proportional representation.
Yes, not just the politicians, the constituents too.
I remember when, I think in the second electoral campaign when Trudeau was against the conservative,
projections showed that if we had the proportional representation, he would have lost.
And many liberals, I know, were happy actually that he did not implant those reforms, those
democratic reforms, because that would have meant a victory for the conservative party.
Debbie?
Well, I just wanted to add that the Green Party is probably the most readily recognized
as having the strongest position on the environment, but even they are not calling for a major
transition in our food system.
So it has been joked that the animal protection party of Canada is greener than greens.
It's very true, very true.
The reason why I bring the topic of constituents is partly because, you know, in light of the
recent Republican victory in the US, I have realized that, and let me know what you think,
but that the animal rights movement has not done a good job at gaining constituents like
allies among conservatives.
And, you know, I was thinking about what Mike said in the beginning of the podcast.
He talked about how conservative the people were in Newfoundland.
He also mentioned Mattius Colley, who is this, you know, very mainstream conservative.
He was a speechwriter for many Republican presidents, and he's also an animal rights
advocate, you know, a vegan, and who has written extensively on the conservative argument for
veganism.
And I feel like maybe we're missing on a whole pool of army of possible allies.
And so what do you think?
Do you think that we could be doing a better job at appealing to a more conservative audience?
Yeah, who wants to take that, Debbie?
I think we have to think about where these conservative folks are getting their information
from, and it's certainly not from wonderful podcasts like yourself.
And mainstream media is just not carrying this message.
They are being funded by, you know, people who are paying for the ads, which tends to
be counter-use of youth industries.
And we have less resources to be able to capture that.
We have, for example, here in Winnipeg, it can be very hard to get any kind of space
on buses.
If you manage to get any space on the buses, they really want to loot the message.
So we have a uphill battle in terms of just getting the message out there to people who
aren't hearing it.
Thank you, Debbie.
Liz?
My message to everybody is we have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies in politics.
So it very much depends on each situation.
When I first got into going to Ottawa, I was put on a committee by the then agriculture
minister to look at the issue of the import of puppies from the United States into Canada.
And at that time, there were about 20,000 coming in.
This is way back in the early 1990s.
The minister was Bill McKnight.
He was, by all accounts, a pretty hardcore conservative, but he loved dogs.
And we sat on that committee with all of the importers and the people who were selling
them and all that sort of stuff.
Nobody wanted any changes.
And I was the one person on the committee that was talking about an alternative.
And he got so frustrated that he simply signed a directive to the border authorities that
they were not to import any puppies that were genetically compromised or where there was
an infection, the entire truck would have to be turned back.
Now that had serious implications for the dogs on the trucks, the puppies.
So we had to approach people at the border to see if we could get them properly handled.
But it meant that the number of dogs coming across the border was dropped from 20,000 down
to under 7,000 just in that one activity.
So there are allies in every party.
The question is, we don't have the same kind of resources as the agricultural community,
and they affect many more riding, so it makes it much more difficult.
But occasionally, if you don't fight with them, I'm trying very hard not to fight with
some of the conservatives because I disagree with some of their other policies.
But nonetheless, we have to talk to them.
If Pierre Pollyev gets elected, we have to go through that party and find out who we
can talk to.
Who is it that we can get in and see?
Who is it that we can actually ask to do even a private members bill to get it discussed
on the legislature?
So I think we just don't make enemies, and we probably don't have a lot of friends, but
we need all of those capacities to actually make change.
Yes, I completely agree.
And more than in the higher level of politicians, even the constituents, those politicians are
elected by people, and if we show that those people care about animals, they will be more
inclined to listen to us.
Edward?
I think you make a really interesting point about the opportunities that are there to
make gains within the conservative side because there are people who are religious, do tend
to have conservative meanings.
So there are opportunities there that can be reached, but I think one thing that we often
lose sight of as people in the animal rights community is that we can make gains in our
interests when we try to support other issues that might not be germane to this specific
topic.
So what I mean by that is that we're probably all privileged in our lives in that we're
not fighting day to day to keep ourselves and our families afloat because when that's
the case, as it is with a lot of people, a lot of people, and that number is growing
because of the wage divide, you don't have a lot of time to fight for others because
you're fighting for yourself.
So when we prop up people, whether that be through universal basic income, other measures
to make sure that people aren't scraping by, they have more time for things that they're
passionate about.
Because I think a lot of people, if they have their eyes open to what's going on, they're
probably going to be more motivated to either take action or at least take steps.
But when you can go to the grocery store and you can buy subsidized meat for cheaper than
you can fresh vegetables, what are you going to buy when you're just trying to keep your
family alive?
So things that aren't specific to our cause, they're still within what we should be fighting
for because they eventually lead to what will help our cause.
And I think that sometimes that gets lost because, again, it feels so mountainous what
we're climbing, what we're trying to achieve, but small gains in other ways can have big
impacts on what we're trying to do.
Thank you, Edward.
It makes me think of recording, I mentioned how I work in the fundraising philanthropic
world and a donation is classified as a luxury expense, actually.
So when you donate to an organization, you're actually, it's a luxury, it's considered a
luxury, which I find interesting in which it goes your point.
Irene, we haven't listened to you answer for a moment now.
Did you want to add something to this whole conversation?
Well, as I said before, I'm a bit of a novice at this, so I can't speak so knowledgeably,
but I am so much in favor of allyship, that this is the way we're going to get things
done.
Just a word about, I know we're talking about politics, but one of the, when you asked at
the very beginning about who are our heroes and how do we get into this whole movement,
I have changed my outlook from the Gary Francione abolitionist stand, which is, we have to end
all animal use 100% around the world.
But unfortunately, that's just not going to happen.
And so my position now is, I think we're calling pragmatic veganism.
And that is, if you take 100 people and 10 of them go completely vegan overnight, no
animal use whatsoever.
And the other 90 people take a more flexitarian report, they do meatless Mondays, they reduce
their animal use of animals, who's going to make the most difference to the animals?
Well, it's going to be the 90 people, not the 10.
And we talk about luxury, we're the luxurious ones, we're the vegans who are happily vegan,
and we don't have any type of mental conflict over it.
The other 90 let them work through it.
But they are our allies, they're not our opposition, they are our allies, and we need to encourage
them in every way, including political.
I was at the Burlington VegFest for the last several years, and Liz has been kind enough
to sponsor me there, a booth.
And I can't tell you the number of people who come up to the table and say, I didn't
know there was a party.
Wow, tell me more.
Of course, I hand out the booklet and I talk them up and I get on the mailing list.
But again, how does that translate into actually going into the voting booth and voting?
And again, I think that happened in the States.
Everybody was expecting, especially I as a feminist was expecting all the young women
to turn out.
They didn't turn out, and that was a great loss for the USM for the world.
So I have a rambling comment there.
Thank you, Irene.
Yes, Edward?
I just think that's so well said by Irene about allyship and being able to make difference
through outreach.
I see it firsthand as I was out recently with a group of friends.
We were at a restaurant, not a vegan restaurant, just a regular restaurant.
And one of the guys came in and he said, well, I guess I'm having the veggie burger.
And I said, well, why is that?
He said, well, I was on the subway and I saw a white one and another poster where you've
got the pig juxtapose against the puppy.
And he said, well, I can't eat a burger now.
I got to have a veggie burger.
So it shows that it works.
Those things all work and all those small measures add up to big things because that
was one less animal on a plate that night.
It sounds cliche, but when I got into this, I thought to myself, if I can change just
one person's mind or even change just one meal, then I'll have had a made a difference.
And if you think if we can get people all across the country signing up to the party,
and each riding eventually fingers crossed the goal, the amount of difference, all those
small actions will make.
It's really heartwarming to think of what that could eventually be.
Thank you, Edward.
And that makes me think I want to give a shout out to on behalf of animals, it's another
podcast hosted by some very good friends.
And in one episode, you know, they interviewed the lobbyist and he said an animal rights
lobbyist and he said, you need to meet those politicians and constituents with confidence
because our cause is a righteous cause.
And I do feel that at my core, you know.
So yeah, Mike, you're back.
Welcome back.
Just in time.
Just in time for, you know, wrapping this up.
Thank you everyone.
Thank you so much for all of your, you know, insights for sharing your experience.
Anything that you want to add anything before we end this recording.
Last chance.
Yes, baby.
Oh, I think thank you for your interest in the party and inviting us onto your podcast.
And the last word I want to leave for all your listeners is a quote by a wonderful
artist, Megan, who was killed by a transport truck carrying pigs at a video.
And she said, doing nothing does no good.
So I encourage everybody to do they can no action for the animals is too small or too
big.
Thank you.
Thank you, Debbie.
Mike.
Yes.
I was thinking of one more.
Activists I'd like to include.
So there was a.
Buddhist monk.
And philosopher named.
Deacon.
Who died a couple of years ago.
And as far as like a philosophy goes, I would say I'm.
He was a very nice guy.
And I was a very nice guy too.
And I think he was just like I, I like.
Buddhist ideas.
So he was one of my favorites.
Like I use a lot of quotes from him as, as well.
And I do outreach.
Yeah.
And he has, they've made a film about his life.
I think it's called walk with me.
I would recommend that as well.
It's about mindfulness and.
And stuff.
he was a vegan as well and that was part of his non-violence philosophy.
Thank you, Mike. As a Buddhist, I truly appreciate this comment. Yes, Irene?
I just wanted to quote, give this quote from another, it was part of a talk that I was involved in
and it basically says, although non-human animals should have some rights, the term
rights can be emotive and negative, turning off listeners before you are even able to make your
point. Think about gun rights, reproductive rights, civil rights. These terms can resonate or repulse
depending on your audience. You cannot get your point across if nobody's listening.
Thank you. Thank you, Irene, for this. Again, thank you so much, everyone. And I truly wish that,
you know, success and lots of votes for this upcoming election. Thank you, everyone, for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know. Let's encourage more people
to take action. Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.