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Welcome to the Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and today we are talking with Vegan Champion.

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His name is Bill Muir, but you better know him as Sergeant Vegan.

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Bill went vegan in 1992 and later joined the US Army as a paratrooper after the events

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of 9-11.

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Despite the challenges, he maintained his plant-based diet through rigorous training

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in deployment, including service in Afghanistan with the 173rd Airborne Brigade.

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He is also the author of many books, including The Children's Book, The Adventures of Sergeant

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Piggy, Vegan Strong, The Ultimate Field Guide for a Kick-Ass Plant-Field Life, and a more

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recent book called Dead Meat, The Future of Food is Killer.

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So welcome Bill, welcome to the show, thank you so much for being here.

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And thank you very much for having me.

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Wonderful, so let me start with this icebreaker question.

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You are a veteran and I should say, you know, thank you for your service.

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In my mind, veganism is all about being independent-minded and going against the grain.

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And I feel like the military is the opposite of that.

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It's about conformity, unity.

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How can you be a vegan and be part of the military?

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Isn't that a living contradiction?

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It certainly is.

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You hit the nail right on the head.

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It's as much of an oxymoron as military intelligence or a peaceful war or anything like that.

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It is, in a lot of ways, a contradiction and it was, in a lot of ways, completely ridiculous.

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But in a big picture of my life, weirdly it makes sense in that I feel like I've chosen

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the not traditional, not easy road, but more interesting path almost every step of the

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way.

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And I would like to attribute some of that to my punk rock background in always trying

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to break the norm, choose interesting over conformity, choose morals and ethics necessarily

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over comfort.

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And it makes sense just in looking at my life and kind of the directions that I've led.

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But nothing about that was easy and you're right, the military is not a path for free

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thinking individuals, especially somebody who would want an easy way.

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Choosing the military as a vegan is ridiculous.

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And I do mention that to people who read stuff that I've done and want to follow the same

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path.

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I tell them, I mean, this is not for the thin of skin or the weak of heart.

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It's hard.

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But it makes sense in a way too.

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And I think that's what makes your story so interesting and so unique.

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So take us back to the beginning.

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What came first, veganism or the military?

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Oh, I went vegetarian in my freshman year of college in 1991.

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And then I ended up joining the military as a vegan in 2003 as a response to 9-11.

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So between that, that was a pretty good chunk of time.

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I went, I guess, if we're going to go on my vegetarian vegan journey to give you the

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quick overview.

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I found out about vegetarianism through punk rock.

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I was at a punk show and somebody handed me a PETA flyer.

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And I'm sure my reaction was at first, what is this hippie bullshit?

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And I read it and I was like, uh, like, you know, meat is murder, same kind of crap.

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And there wasn't an internet that I could have looked anything up on.

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I just had this basic introduction to it in this very, probably poorly made flyer.

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It was in black and white.

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I was looking at this, a piece of paper.

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I was like, what are, what, what is this?

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What are these goofy ideas?

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But it awakened something in my brain because I was already studying sociology in college

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and starting to understand the inequality baked into our human systems.

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And because I was in a place where I was ready for new ideas and a place that I wanted to

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make my life better and a place that I was open toward compassion when it was suggested

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that, hey, one of the easiest ways to change the world would be what I choose to consume.

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It really struck me.

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So I fought with the idea back and forth.

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I'm sure I would have made fun of, of other vegetarians for that for a couple of months

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if I had known anybody who was vegetarian, but I didn't.

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And I went back and forth and I grapple with it.

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And that would have probably been in September of 1991, but by February of 1992, when my

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mom asked me what I was going to give up for Lent, it just random brain mode.

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I came up with, hey, I'm going to go vegetarian.

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And Lent is only 40 days and that is not a serious investment of time.

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But I said, I'll stop eating meat.

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People lost their goddamn minds.

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It was like I had said, you know, I had leaked the nuclear code or something like that on

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the internet.

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Like there was a panic.

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It was like, for my parents, is my, my son going to die?

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For my friends, is my friend, are we going to have to visit me and some kind of war?

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And the hospital, the protein deficient vegan ward, which of course does not exist.

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But at that point, at that point, people thought that that was the thing.

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Fast forward a little bit as you could probably guess, I did not die.

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I felt fine.

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And then that summer I got yet again, another PETA pamphlet at another punk show.

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And this time was talking about the connection between dairy and the slaughter industry.

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And it had an interesting, basically, basically an interesting thought that if you're eating

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a cheese sandwich, you might as well make it a cheeseburger because the milk that you're

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drinking leads to that cow eventually being killed and the calf and the turning into veal.

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And your, those two systems, while at first drinking milk and using animal byproducts

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doesn't seem as bad, it is interconnected.

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And when I made that connection, I realized I was being faced with a binary choice.

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Was I okay with animal cruelty or not?

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If I was okay with animal cruelty, then I could keep being just a vegetarian and leave

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it at that and nobody would carry the way.

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People were going to be thinking I was doing way too much as it was, but I wasn't going

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to be okay with it.

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Or could I go vegan and just accept that I was never going to eat, you know, a burger

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again.

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I was never going to eat ice cream again.

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I was going to have pizza with no cheese, which was going to amount to basically a big

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piece of bread with a can of sauce dumped on it.

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And that was going to be the rest of my life.

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And I, I thought it over and pretty quickly I determined that if I want to live a life

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that's authentic to what I believe in, it's going to mean some hard choices.

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And it might mean some uncomfortable conversations, but that I would rather do that than knowing

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my heart of hearts that I sucked.

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So I went vegan and I don't know the exact date because I don't know other vegans and

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they didn't have anyone to tell that I was vegan.

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But I had made that choice and was living a vegan lifestyle by August of 1992, because

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I know I mentioned it to somebody in passing and they didn't know what the word was my

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first semester as a sophomore in college.

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That raises an eternal issue, an eternal question in the animal rights world and veganism

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community, which is do we go gradually in terms of convincing people to abandon animal

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products or do we try to sell, you know, the whole thing, the whole veganism thing?

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You started gradually as a vegetarian and then became vegan.

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When I look at people trying to sell veganism, I feel like that the best thing to do is to

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promote reducing animal products and not veganism itself, which is a big leap even today in

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the 1990s.

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It was a really big one, but even today it is a big one.

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But at the same time, I look at my personal experience and I'm not the type of person

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to do anything gradually, like it's yes or no, it's black or white.

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And I went vegan pretty much overnight.

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So what's your take on that issue?

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I would have two points.

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Point number one, I don't think the animals care what you're doing as long as you're

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doing something less shitty for them.

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Along with reducing your carbon footprint is going to be better for the environment,

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like 100%.

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My second thing would be with social media and a bazillion videos on how to be vegan

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or how to be vegetarian on YouTube, Instagram, podcasts like this on Spotify.

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This is no longer a road less traveled.

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This is while we're a very small portion of the population, we're still at like 3% overall.

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I think a bigger percentage of younger folks, a little bit less for older folks and whatnot.

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There's so many different takes on this and you could just watch videos until you find

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something that aligns with you because the important part is that you're doing it.

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It's pretty much a little less important as if it takes you a couple months or you do

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it overnight.

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I generally think from a bodybuilding perspective or something like that, not to do with the

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protein, but generally what works for people if I'm talking to someone and like, hey, how

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do I get fit?

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You don't start going to the gym five days a week, starting, you're trying to hit a new

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PR every single day from day one.

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There's like a gradual kind of work into it phase.

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It's usually easier like you're talking about the reducer terrarium thing.

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It's generally easier to reduce what you're eating because you're eating more of something

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else instead of give up everything and all of a sudden you're having to read stuff day

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in and day out and you're getting this idea of, oh, this is hard.

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I can say, no, it's not hard.

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It's easy, but I have been doing this for more than three decades and I'm in a different

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boat at that point.

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I'm on autopilot most of the time.

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It's not the same as somebody who's just starting it and it's adding to this dress.

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I would say the best way to go vegan is the way that works best for you.

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As long as you do it, that's all that matters.

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Okay, let's come back to your story.

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So you're vegan, you go and listen to punk rock music, bands, you're even a musician,

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I think.

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And then 9-Eleven happened and you decide to enroll in the military.

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And I feel like, and maybe I'm a bit prejudiced, but you're not the profile I'm thinking of

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to go and enroll in the military.

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What prompted that interest, more than that, that inspiration to serve your country?

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I would say, and this is going to be ridiculous to hear, but I think it's true, that the same

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thoughts that prompted me to go vegan when it wasn't popular was the thing that got me

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to enlist in the military and become a medic.

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That whole make the world a better place, even if it's uncomfortable, is what made me

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go vegan.

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And that also made me become a medic in serve in Afghanistan.

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I think the two are exactly the same in that regard.

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No, the military does not have many vegans.

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I did not meet another vegan while I was in.

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I met a vegetarian once and it was like some kind of amazing, like, whoa, you're also,

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this is crazy.

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That especially when I was attached to infantry and artillery, did I meet any other, people

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didn't know what a vegan was at first, then they had to have it, you know, then I explained

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it, and then they were just like, I can't understand the words that you're saying kind

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of like thing, like they, they were like, all right, I mean, the takeaway though from

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the guys and gals that I did serve with was, well, I mean, I guess you're good at your

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job and the, in the army and the Marine Corps too, the biggest thing is, are you physically

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fit?

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If you're not fit, no matter how good you are at your job, your ship bag and nobody wants

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to be near you, you're like, you know, you get promoted on your fitness, you get almost

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everything about you.

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It's something that does not exist in the civilian world, but, and even jobs that you

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don't think you would need to be fit for your PT, your physical training score, your physical

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fitness score are more important than almost anything else.

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And I was more or less a PT stud at that point.

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I had run marathons prior to the military.

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So when I got to the military and they're like, Hey, we run all the time.

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We rock March all the time.

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I was like, bet that's totally fine.

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That's what I would be doing in my free time anyway.

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So that part of the military was a very easy transition.

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It was almost like a dream job.

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Someone's going to pay me to work out.

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This is amazing.

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But, but no, most people were, nobody was stoked to hear that I was a quote unquote hippie

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vegan and, and I did get a lot of, you know, comments and other stuff.

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But again, military is not a place for the thin of skin.

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And as a medic, most people I knew were very happy to have me because I was there to be

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basically the, the den mother slash like the person that's going to, you know, pull

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them out of danger or give them an IV if they're sick or, you know, that them, their

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well being was my job.

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So while people kind of gave me some shit for it, I think I just had adjusted to that

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and accepted that and, and wasn't surprised in the least that it was going to happen.

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I mean, my eyes rolled most days a couple of times a day, like I'm hearing this crap

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again, but no more than I would have heard in the nineties from some idiot.

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And then, you know, sometimes we still hear today.

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So overall that, that was that.

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Reading about your story, I remembered Adam, Adam Knoth.

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Adam Knoth.

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Do you know about him?

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So he's a Canadian firefighter and he was sent to, you know, far from any urban area

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to fight, you know, fires.

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And there, and he's vegan, by the way.

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And there, there was no vegan option for him, like absolutely none.

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And when he asked, you know, for something else than like tomatoes or salad or like proteins,

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I think as a joke, they gave him a single black bean or something like that.

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And after that episode, he actually sued the firefighting department.

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And in Ontario, I think, and he lost his legal fight.

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He, he was basing that legal fight on, you know, he said that veganism was like his

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religion, that it was as deep and as personal of a conviction than religion.

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And the legal court basically said no.

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So my first question for you is relating to that is, did you face any kind of difficulties,

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like struggles to feed yourself, being, you know, deployed in the middle of nowhere, in

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the Middle East, you know, and also, do you feel the same way about your veganism as some

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sort of religion or something as deep of a conviction?

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You mentioned celebrating the plant.

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So I guess you already have your religion.

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No, I'm not religious.

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So to answer your questions, I'm going to go with the second one first.

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I consider veganism to be more of a philosophy than a religion, but do I consider it as important

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as people's religion is, you know, to me personally, do I consider my beliefs very important?

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Yes.

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So it definitely informs how I think, feel, and navigate the universe and informs choices

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like who I'm going to, who's going to be my romantic partner.

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I've broken up with plenty of very wonderful women because they weren't on board.

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I think they think that they were going to be maybe, that I was going to be okay with

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them eating like mostly vegetarian, but still eating animals and having it in their refrigerator.

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And I'm not.

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So I think for me, and for a lot of people that I know, and probably a lot of our listeners,

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being vegan is very similar to a religion.

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It's at least a belief system, and I'm bummed to hear that that Canadian lost his, his lost

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in court because that just, that sucks in America at least.

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And we have lots of problems, but we, even if you're a prisoner because you did some

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heinous crimes, you're still afforded vegan options in jail.

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They don't currently, obviously when I was in, they didn't really serve much to eat at

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all.

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We'll get in a second for vegans, but they had, they had vegetarian MREs.

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We're still fighting to get the vegetarian MREs vegan because the vegan, the vegetarian

247
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MREs came about in the nineties when before vegan was really a thing, but it was just vegetarian.

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I've been arguing now for a couple of years, I was working with Mercy for Animals, and

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I'm sure this is going to come up again and we'll fight it again and talk about it again.

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But I think America and other Western countries and hopefully the whole world will afford

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their servicemen and women, plant-based vegan MREs.

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And as far as I'm concerned, while I don't care about gluten-free, they could leave out

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all the gluten and just call it a fussy eater MRE if it makes everyone happy.

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Because if you want to serve your country for whatever your reason, but most people

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do it for out of patriotism or to try to do something bigger than themselves, and some

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people do it because they want money for college because most, at least America, that's part

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of the deal that you could get money for college, which I didn't need, but is a good selling

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point for other people.

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As far as the practicality of being vegan in the military, I was in a joint 21 years

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ago, which makes me feel a little old, but in 2003, and then I got out for good, and

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then I went back in in the reserves.

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It was difficult, but not impossible both times.

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Fancy training was the hardest, and not because anyone was forcing you to eat meat.

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There wasn't anything like that.

265
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I've heard some horror stories that the Marine Corps might not be that way.

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I can't speak on that experience because I wasn't a Marine, though.

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Those guys are amazing.

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So many of the things they do, I love.

269
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Shout out to the Marines out there.

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Our basic training is basically like, hey, you have a limited amount of time to go through

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a dining facility, to go through this cafeteria, get what you're going to eat, eat it real

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quick, get out the door.

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It's not that they tell you that you have to eat meat.

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It's that the vegan options are so few and far between, not nutritious, not going to

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fill you up, and not going to give you enough calories, that I was doing basic training

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probably somewhere around.

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I was training about 20 hours a day, and I was doing that on around 1200 calories a

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day.

279
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Now, today, I did go to the gym, and today is my low calorie day, and I'm just doing

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two protein shakes.

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I don't recommend this, but this is just something I'm doing now just to try to get a six pack.

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But I'll probably get around 1200 calories, and I am far from working out 20 hours a day.

283
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I worked out about two hours today.

284
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I benched, I did some tricep exercises, and I'll probably work out tonight too.

285
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It's just such a crazy thing.

286
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It's like trying to get a car to drive really fast, really far, but you're not putting any

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gas in there.

288
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It's really hard to do.

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Practicality, just imagine breakfast.

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It's not like they're saying, hey, you have to eat this egg omelet, or we're throwing

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you out, or there's any threat of it.

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There's nothing in the hotline, but there is a cereal bar, you could call it, and they

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have corn flakes, which is vegan.

294
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,840
So how much could you eat in corn flakes?

295
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How many, and to also add to that, keep in mind that there is no soy milk, there is no

296
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hemp milk, there is no rice milk, there is no oat milk, there is no...

297
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,720
I thought like walnut milk, pecan milk, there's none of that.

298
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Nothing.

299
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So you're deepening it dry until you come up with, hey, if I put really crappy fruit

300
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,520
cocktail on it, it'll soften it up so I could eat more of this stuff, so I have more in

301
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my stomach.

302
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,000
Does that sound gross?

303
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,840
I've eaten worse, but it's not delicious.

304
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,760
At no point are you like, man, I'm stoked to go to Chow.

305
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You might be hungry, but you're not going to be enjoying eating that.

306
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And that was basically what meals were like throughout basic training.

307
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And in basic training, the only thing people look forward to is getting mail and going

308
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to eat.

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And now you've cut out half of why anyone's excited to go to be there.

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You're just training or I guess getting mail and you're eating barely enough to stay alive

311
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to keep your eyes open.

312
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It's not great.

313
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After that, you get more flexibility and you can choose what you're doing, choose what

314
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you're eating, and you can come up with creative ways to make it work.

315
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,840
And I came up with a bunch of them, and that's how I was able to make it work.

316
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:41,080
And for me, weirdly, basic training was the worst experience that I had in the military,

317
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,560
not because of the training, but because of the food.

318
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And being in Afghanistan was not that bad because I figured out a way to hack the system.

319
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,600
But had I not thought of a way to hack the system, I'm sure it would have been pretty

320
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,600
bad.

321
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,560
I want to get back to how you hack the system.

322
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:11,680
But first, if you were part of my regimen, is that the word for your group of military

323
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:12,680
men?

324
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:13,920
Yes.

325
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:24,640
And I see you struggle this much in basic training, and still you hold on to your convictions.

326
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:32,440
That would draw my attention, and I would be interested in knowing more about why you're

327
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,400
vegan, why you're doing that, why is it so important for you.

328
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,400
Did that happen?

329
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,120
Did it draw attention?

330
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:47,880
I did talk to some people about it, but generally speaking, when you're not having a good time

331
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,600
doing something that doesn't attract people where they're people are like, man, that looks

332
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,360
like that sucks.

333
00:27:56,360 --> 00:28:03,040
Let me talk to this person and hear more about something that sucks.

334
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:10,000
People were more interested in when I was vegan, when I was beating them running, and

335
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,480
then they would think, oh, Mura must have some kind of secret sauce.

336
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,480
What is it?

337
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,000
Oh, it's vegan.

338
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:26,680
I often used that as something I would throw at people when I was passing them as we were

339
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,160
running during a PT test.

340
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:37,280
I would say, I can't fault you for being slow, you're not vegan, or whatever I could come

341
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:43,600
up with while I was running to yell at somebody.

342
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:49,160
Because I'm thinking of it randomly, the Sergeant Vegan concept started when I went back in the

343
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,680
military and I was in the reserve.

344
00:28:52,680 --> 00:29:01,920
As a way to cope with the vegan thing and being back in the military, I was a Sergeant

345
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:17,960
and I embraced my role as being the slightly older veteran and realizing that to get people

346
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:24,120
ready for deployment, coddling them and being nice to them was not going to be the way to

347
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,440
go.

348
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,880
I went over the top creating this persona for myself that was kind of like, there were

349
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:38,040
this GI Joe character, for those who know what that is, in the 80s called Sergeant Slaughter

350
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:46,000
that was this really over the top, like a pro wrestling kind of persona.

351
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,640
I was a little bit like that.

352
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,560
Not to the point where I would have hurt anybody, not to the point where it was like a full

353
00:29:52,560 --> 00:30:01,200
mental jacket, but just like instead of seeing veganism as a, I want to give you a cuddle

354
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:08,520
kind of thing, more of a, you're worthless and weak, drop and give me 20 kind of way.

355
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,080
Which somehow kind of worked for the situation.

356
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:17,480
I don't know if I recommend that to everyone, but it worked for that situation.

357
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,480
That's amazing.

358
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:26,120
Do you have any organization, vegan animal rights organization reached out to you to

359
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,440
advocacy work in the military?

360
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,240
Be the one to talk to military people because I don't know that culture.

361
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:40,920
I can speak to those people, like I can talk their language, but you can, you can reach

362
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,280
military, you know, men and women.

363
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,880
So did that happen?

364
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,920
Did you do any activism work in that area?

365
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,760
So Mercy for Animals did reach out to me and we were doing a campaign a couple of years

366
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,720
back to try to get a vegan MRE.

367
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,560
Unfortunately, they didn't, it didn't succeed to the point where they got me to talk to

368
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,560
Congress.

369
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,400
I did make a couple of videos about it.

370
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:15,360
I have talked, how much have I done with that?

371
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:21,960
I think I've talked to a lot of veterans, but not actual organizations at, besides that.

372
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,320
I would like to continue to do more.

373
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,960
I've been active supporting organizations, but I'm not, especially at the military.

374
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,240
I'm not really much of a joiner anymore.

375
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,400
So I've worked with Unchained, I've worked with Mercy for Animals, I've worked with

376
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:47,120
IDA, but I prefer my, you know, me being a, doing something with another organization

377
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,800
to me being a part of the organization.

378
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:57,160
Because I can endorse a lot of almost every organization, but I probably am not going

379
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,680
to be on board with everything that everyone does.

380
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,280
Like PETA, I love that they've been out there for years.

381
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:09,520
I'm probably, they probably make me roll my eyes as much as the next person who's like,

382
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,160
oh, they're not presenting this in the right way.

383
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:19,080
However, they have been forefront in getting animal rights to the masses.

384
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:25,240
I just was doing a campaign with them recently about, what is it?

385
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:35,800
Wounded Warrior Project was giving away a hunting expedition as part of a raffle prize.

386
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:42,280
And that came on the PETA's radar, and PETA contacted me and we were contacting them and

387
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,920
trying to get media attention to say like, hey, this sucks.

388
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:52,200
Like, would veterans have enough problems, let alone, you know, most of them, which are

389
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,600
battle related.

390
00:32:53,600 --> 00:33:01,920
So doing that to an animal and torturing an animal on behalf of veterans kind of sucks.

391
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,800
I agree with them with some of the veterans that I know be cool with going hunting.

392
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,240
Well, duh, of course.

393
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:17,120
Like, you know, veterans are a diverse group, most of us aren't hippy vegans.

394
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,720
And I could see a lot of my friends being down to go hunting as a thing.

395
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:21,720
So I get it.

396
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:28,320
But it's important to have a voice out there saying like, no, we're not all cool with this.

397
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,840
And so for that, I'm stoked that PETA did that.

398
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:39,360
How did you hack the system to get better food because I still have, you know, you put

399
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:45,480
that image in my mind of those cereals in orange juice.

400
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,480
What was it again?

401
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,480
Oh, I did.

402
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,480
I did that too.

403
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,840
Corn flakes and fruit cocktail.

404
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:57,480
And I was also doing corn flakes in orange juice.

405
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:03,160
And I'm sure every now and again, I got crazy and I had frosted flakes in orange juice.

406
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,800
Is it something you can't eat anymore?

407
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:13,160
Like you see corn flakes and I'm, I have no interest in eating corn flakes, frosted flakes,

408
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,160
any of that.

409
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,680
I mean, that's not really, it's not the worst for you.

410
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:23,560
I think vegans often get food snobby, especially if you live in a first world country, you're

411
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,560
like, huh, I would never eat that, that or say something stupid, like that's poison.

412
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,200
Man, that's not poison.

413
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,200
Is that optimal?

414
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,000
No, I think we need to look at food like optimal.

415
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:40,560
And suboptimal optimal, optimal nutrition is in my opinion, tofu, broccoli, you know,

416
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,760
brown rice, that's optimal.

417
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,280
Then there's a whole bunch of suboptimal corn flakes.

418
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,280
Is it processed?

419
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,280
Yes.

420
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,840
Can you have a box of it for 10 years and then open the box and eat it and it will be fine.

421
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,440
Yeah, that's not great for you.

422
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,160
But is it poison?

423
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,920
I think we vegans can get, can be a skittish bunch.

424
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,400
And I think poison is kind of a silly thing to say.

425
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,560
So to answer your question, how did I hack this system?

426
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,160
Two things I did.

427
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:17,960
So the first thing I did, after I got to my unit, I realized that I was going to be subject

428
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:26,480
to and for, for during all of training, I've been doing little kind of goofy workarounds

429
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,160
like, like when I was in ranger training, as part of your kit that they make you carry

430
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,720
around when you're basically like, it's almost like the fraternity system where you're a pledge

431
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:39,760
where they give you a special uniform.

432
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,520
They make you carry this big two court canteen.

433
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,360
Well I drained the canteen and I would put vegan snacks in there.

434
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:54,400
And I was basically like, I was carrying my food around everywhere because I realized

435
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,160
within the first week of training.

436
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,360
No one asked, asked you to drink out of that canteen.

437
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,960
It's just something you're carrying.

438
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,800
And when I realized that I was like, now I basically have a satchel where if I'm going

439
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:13,360
to breakfast, I had vegan cream cheese from, I don't believe galaxy foods is around anymore.

440
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,800
But if anyone from galaxy is hearing this, I did eat your cream cheese.

441
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,720
If it was either that or tofu, that I would bring out cream cheese.

442
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,360
So I could have that on a bagel.

443
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:30,240
And man, that really felt like, that felt like I had won the lottery or just figured

444
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:35,600
out some kind of like, or just, you know, just figured out the cure to cancer, you know,

445
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,800
being able to go into that chow hall and then put vegan cream cheese on a bagel.

446
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,600
Amazing.

447
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,760
And so I was doing stuff like that during your training.

448
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:50,840
But when I finally got to my unit, I was like, okay, they're going to make me go back to

449
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,440
the dining hall and be, get all of my nutrition from the dining hall.

450
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,040
I had done that in basic training.

451
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,720
I had done that on all these trainings and that hadn't worked out well for me.

452
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:06,360
I realized that the route that I needed to go was to get my own apartment and not to

453
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,720
be reliant on the military for food.

454
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:15,840
If I could self cater, then I were talking basically a nine to five and with the military,

455
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,880
it's more like a five to nine job.

456
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,980
But if I could hack that, I'd be good to go.

457
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:31,400
So I talked to the commanding officer and, you know, just asked him like, Hey, sir, what

458
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,400
would I have to do?

459
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,280
Well, maybe it's the first time.

460
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,480
Anyway, I asked him upy up, what would I have to do to get off post, to get my own apartment?

461
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,080
They're like, can't get it, you're an apartment.

462
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,560
But you could share an apartment with someone.

463
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,680
They generally, you have to get a waiver if you're E four, which is my rank.

464
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,320
If you're E five and above, it's easier process.

465
00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:02,200
And then, then talking to them and then talking to other people, I realized that the way to

466
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:09,240
hack that would be to get a doctor's note saying that I had to have access to cooking

467
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:15,120
equipment to make my own food as a vegan because I could not get met in the chow hall.

468
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,240
And that basically a doctor was like the doctor's word was like the word of God.

469
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:25,000
And they would move heaven and earth to be to do whatever I needed to do just because

470
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,000
a doctor said it.

471
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,160
So I talked to the company, maybe I think it was the battalion surgeon that got him to

472
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,160
write me a note.

473
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,920
And I have it in my book.

474
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,960
If you're interested in looking at sometime, anybody you could just flip through it and

475
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:44,160
it has that of course my social security redacted specialist, Muir, this, that and the other

476
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:50,480
as a vegan diet, vegan defined by this and requires conditions to be able to get his

477
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,760
own food.

478
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:58,080
With that, I brought them that letter and they're like, Hey, let's make this happen.

479
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:04,680
I got, I was able to go off post and share an apartment with a friend of mine.

480
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,880
And then I was able to cook every day.

481
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:13,120
So I would go to the physical training like everyone else, go back home, make a big ass

482
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,520
breakfast and I was set.

483
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:24,120
And at that point, since I was living in Italy, I went the opposite direction in that I lost

484
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,880
15 pounds in basic training, 15 pounds that I didn't really have to lose.

485
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:38,520
But I gained probably 20 pounds, even running 10 to 15 miles a day because I was eating

486
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,120
a vegan pizza every day.

487
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,240
I would, when I wasn't making my own food, I would go out, we call it in the military

488
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:52,000
on the economy and I would get a kilo of soy gelato.

489
00:39:52,000 --> 00:40:02,360
I would get at least every day I was eating a full size pizza, pasta.

490
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:10,200
If I had, if my current self could talk to myself then I would have told myself, Hey,

491
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:15,720
pump the brakes on all that eating and like, you know, think of calories and let's try

492
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:16,720
to get abs.

493
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:22,280
But instead I was like, you know what, you know, I was only eating 1200 calories then.

494
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,280
So to make up for it, I'm going to eat 3500 calories a day now, which was way too much,

495
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,360
like a ridiculous amount of food.

496
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,040
But I wasn't hungry.

497
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:38,680
And I believe one of the guys I serve with, I still remember this said, I said, Doc, I

498
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,960
believe you're the fattest vegan I've ever seen.

499
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:48,400
And I wasn't fat, but I definitely had a gut on me, even with the fact that I was, you

500
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,320
know, doing all that running, because, you know, calories and calories out, you can only

501
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,560
expend so many calories.

502
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,480
And I was way overdoing it at every moment.

503
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,480
So then for Afghanistan, because I knew I was going to be in a similar spot to training

504
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:12,560
where limited amount of food, there's no priority for resupply.

505
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:13,800
I'm a captive audience.

506
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:14,800
What do I do?

507
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,680
I realized that I wouldn't know where I was being deployed to ahead of time.

508
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,260
So I got these two gigantic boxes.

509
00:41:24,260 --> 00:41:29,120
We're talking 75 pound boxes that would fit that much stuff.

510
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:35,080
And I filled it with everything I could find at the commissary at the post supermarket.

511
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:43,000
I put soy milk, I put clip bars, I put vegan ramen, I put, that's about it.

512
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,320
Everything but corn flakes, because I was done with that shit.

513
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,200
I filled it up.

514
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:48,700
I filled it.

515
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:52,600
I set myself 150 pounds of stuff and I was so proud of myself.

516
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,280
I was like, you have figured it out.

517
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,200
So I send that to myself, my future self.

518
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,760
Fast forward to when we got to Afghanistan.

519
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:13,000
They were giving us a safety brief and they were like, and by the way, Doc, one of your

520
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,120
boxes exploded.

521
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,560
So I guess the good news was, A, I got one of my boxes, but the bad news was one of my

522
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,760
boxes exploded.

523
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:33,440
And when I was told that news, I believe my mouth just dropped open.

524
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,400
I'm sure I had this really dumb look on my face.

525
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,360
And I made this hand gesture with like your palms opening up.

526
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,480
I went, exploded.

527
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:50,840
And for at least six months, anytime we got attacked, someone would ask if something exploded

528
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:56,280
in that stupid voice with that hand gesture, or was there an explosion or anything.

529
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,440
I mean, it was pretty funny to everyone, but not me, because I was like, oh man, what

530
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,240
am I going to do now?

531
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:10,720
So for a month, so that food probably lasted three weeks, maybe four, maybe a full month,

532
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:11,920
but not much longer than that.

533
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,480
So then I was like, all right, what am I going to do now?

534
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:25,920
So for a bit, I was what we call rat fuck, which is where you go into a supply of something

535
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,880
and rip through until you get what you want, similar to how a rat would go through a food

536
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:31,880
source.

537
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,040
So I would do that.

538
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,440
I would with rat fucking MRE.

539
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,560
So I would go through the bean burrito number 12.

540
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,000
The bean burrito was vegan at that point.

541
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,400
For some reason, they got rid of it.

542
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,640
It wasn't good, but it was the least food.

543
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,120
So I would go through and steal all the bean burrito number 12s.

544
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,880
And then they realized that they had all these boxes that were going through.

545
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,480
And to be fair to them, every box of MREs is about $500.

546
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,240
So I have essentially, maybe not 500 bucks.

547
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:03,040
So we're talking 10 bucks a piece.

548
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,640
All right, 100 bucks.

549
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:12,120
So I'm ruining essentially, like I was at every day $100 worth of stuff, because I opened

550
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:18,240
the box, pull out, then I go through a couple others and pull out bread, pull out this.

551
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:19,920
And they were like, man, you got to stop this.

552
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,240
So I got pulled officially.

553
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:23,000
I could not do that to the MREs.

554
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:31,160
So then I was doing that, not that, but I was taking the humanitarian meals because they

555
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:39,800
had a stockpile of humanitarian meals for the Afghanis.

556
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,440
And I was just eating them.

557
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,040
And then I was told I couldn't eat them anymore.

558
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:44,880
I wasn't doing anything to the boxes.

559
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,800
It would take one at a time.

560
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:56,360
So then after that, I was working with some local docs who were on base and they had their

561
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,480
own chow hall.

562
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,240
So I would trade with them.

563
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:04,760
I would go to my chow hall, get the American meal that I couldn't eat, and then give it

564
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,160
to them and they would give me their rice.

565
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,800
And I'm like, I'd like to say it's non, but it's non, it's like this foot bread that they

566
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,000
would eat.

567
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,000
And that was vegan.

568
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,800
And then I was, then they found out that I was fraternizing with the locals too much

569
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,760
and they were like, you can't do that.

570
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:27,240
So then, and the final hack, which worked for the rest of the time, because this, all

571
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:33,360
of this food stuff in Afghanistan, that was all the space of about two months.

572
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,480
I found out about a site called anysoldier.com.

573
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:44,120
When we had power in the generators, the special forces that we were attached to would run some

574
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:50,240
satellite stuff and we'd be able to do a little bit internet for just a short period

575
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:51,920
of time.

576
00:45:51,920 --> 00:46:00,680
And I put something on a website that, hey, I'm a soldier on the border of Pakistan.

577
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:07,400
My guys need maximum magazines and razors and beef jerky and I'm vegan and I'm just starving

578
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,320
and please send me stuff.

579
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:16,560
And people were like, I think there was still a lot of patriotism and fervor post 9-11, but

580
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:27,400
when people saw that someone was, someone had the audacity to stay vegan in a war zone,

581
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,320
it, people just were just blown away.

582
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:33,720
And the response was amazing.

583
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:40,360
I was getting, I was getting care packages every single time we got mail.

584
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,320
Anytime we got resupplied, I was getting boxes upon boxes and stuff.

585
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,160
And often it was stuff that was awesome.

586
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:54,120
And I ate pretty well and I started giving it to my guys and some of the locals too.

587
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,360
And that was great.

588
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:58,840
That's incredible.

589
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:07,960
And there's something, there is something absolutely beautiful to, to this story of really,

590
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,240
because it's not about food really, it's about your convictions and it's about defending

591
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:21,320
your right to, you know, to follow those convictions in service of your country.

592
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,520
So that's the real story, you know.

593
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:31,520
Of course, the food adventures are really entertaining, but when you, you know, think

594
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,600
about it and think about, oh, this is about his convictions.

595
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:43,920
He's, you know, persevering in the face of all that struggle because he cares about animals.

596
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,280
That's what really inspires me in that story.

597
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:55,240
Well, the, I don't think most people are going to have to, I guess I would like to take away

598
00:47:55,240 --> 00:48:02,760
for people to be, sometimes as a vegan, you're going to have to go through a little bit of

599
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,880
discomfort now and, and then it's probably not the end of the world.

600
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:15,200
Nowadays, at least I live in California and I fly, I'm in different parts of the United

601
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:21,920
States, often to either do speaking gig or travel or go back and see my, my folks on

602
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,840
the East coast.

603
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:32,080
The most that someone's going to have to put up with to be vegan is you wanted a beyond

604
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,240
burger and they only have an impossible burger.

605
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:43,480
And while there's a lot of old man syndrome that all in my day, you know, stuff at the

606
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,240
end of the day, that's what I want.

607
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:53,280
I want there to be progress to the point where no one has to ever go through those experiences

608
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:54,400
again.

609
00:48:54,400 --> 00:49:02,000
Like progress for this cause means that my, this kind of struggle should be redundant.

610
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:10,120
And when people ask me, you know, what, what would I like to see with the future of veganism?

611
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:16,360
I would personally like to see there be no need for a Sergeant vegan that so many people

612
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:22,200
are vegan that it's like a, you know, it's like a, it's like a given at that point that,

613
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,280
you know, kind of like any cause that I, that I think most of us agreeing like with human

614
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:34,560
rights and civil rights that once racism is finally eradicated that nobody needs to talk

615
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,560
about it because we're good.

616
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Everybody's good.

617
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,960
And I would like to see that, that, you know, we get to the point where it's just a given

618
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,240
that everyone believes in.

619
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:50,800
We're not quite there yet, but hopefully one day we're not quite there yet.

620
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:57,800
And I think that we should be highlighting your story and also the struggles of other

621
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,800
vegans and show that it's not easy.

622
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:10,560
I think that's one of the top 10 things I hate hearing from vegan activists.

623
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,120
It's easy, go vegan.

624
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,120
It's so easy.

625
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,640
There are so many alternatives and all of that.

626
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:21,920
It's not, you don't know the culture of that, of the person you're talking to.

627
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:28,480
You don't know, you know, what's the, the, the fields they're working on.

628
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,440
You don't know their family situation.

629
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,120
You don't know what you're asking them to do.

630
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:40,040
And I think that we should not set false expectations from the get go.

631
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:44,480
We should be frank about it, that it will be hard.

632
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:51,200
There will be hard times from, you know, being vegan, but look at those amazing stories of

633
00:50:51,200 --> 00:51:00,320
people, you know, going through those obstacles and persevering and doing the right thing.

634
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:05,480
I know that the next time being vegan will be hard for me.

635
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,560
I will be thinking about your story.

636
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,640
I'll be thinking, you know, Bill was in a whore zone and he still went vegan.

637
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,560
So what is my excuse?

638
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,000
And that will motivate me.

639
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,080
So what do you think of that?

640
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:21,080
I agree.

641
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,760
I do, I slightly would like to disagree with the vegan being difficult.

642
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,200
I in 2024, I don't think vegan is difficult.

643
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:32,640
Let me be clear.

644
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:39,880
I'm talking specifically about living in the United States, living in Canada, Japan.

645
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:46,000
I'm going to include you too, because I used to live in Japan, Europe as well.

646
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:51,120
If you're in an industrialized, you go to the supermarket and not have to go with a

647
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:56,480
bone arrow to shoot your food kind of situation, which is most of us, if you can listen to

648
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,720
this podcast, it includes you.

649
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:00,720
Vegan is easy.

650
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:08,080
Now, I agree with you that sometimes family situations, you know, that hole in the beginning

651
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,120
of, well, what am I going to make?

652
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:11,440
You know, how do I cook?

653
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:20,600
Yeah, I mean, life, life is not all being fed bonbons, but it's relatively easy.

654
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:26,600
That's kind of a short anecdotal story.

655
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:35,840
My band was playing the show in 2016, and there was like a hippie chick with a, I think

656
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,000
she had a t-shirt that had an oom on it.

657
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,080
And I was wearing a shirt that said vegan.

658
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,080
And she said, oh, vegan.

659
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,520
I would love to go vegan, but that's hard.

660
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:55,160
And I think I said to her, which was probably too much, but I really do believe this.

661
00:52:55,160 --> 00:53:02,800
I said, the only way to make veganism easier at this point is if someone carried me in

662
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:10,200
their arms like a baby, and then when there was time to be fed, chewed up the food and

663
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,160
spit it into my mouth like a baby bird.

664
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:20,320
And that was probably not what she was expecting to hear because she gave me a really weird

665
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,520
look.

666
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:29,240
But I'm going to extend this to most places that being vegan is really, really easy.

667
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:34,280
Now, I agree that things ebb and flow.

668
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:39,600
There was a time where like a couple of years ago where there was a vegan option, and they

669
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,280
were trying to have a vegan option in every fast food place in America, and now there's

670
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:44,840
not as much.

671
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:49,320
Unlike Europe and Australia, where it's super stinking easy.

672
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,520
I get it.

673
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,040
Sometimes it's where the market's at.

674
00:53:54,040 --> 00:54:01,480
And sometimes, while it's going to be super cheap to self cater, it might be a little

675
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,120
harder than stuff.

676
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,440
But we put this in a perspective.

677
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:13,440
I don't need anybody to go through being vegan like I did back in the day where I had to

678
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:20,840
search out the only whole food store in my town that sold tofu and go buy tofu because

679
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,680
that was the only thing that I could think of that might have protein in it.

680
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:27,840
We're nowhere near that anyway.

681
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:34,440
In most places in the world, especially if you're able to listen to this, I've traveled

682
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,200
to almost, I'm at 49 countries so far.

683
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,960
Everywhere that I've been, it wasn't that hard to be vegan.

684
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:48,640
Other than, I'm including Afghanistan, it might be tougher in some, but even China wasn't

685
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,440
that bad.

686
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,920
But it just takes a little bit of getting used to.

687
00:54:53,920 --> 00:55:00,280
But I would compare it then, being vegan, just like anything you're changing in your

688
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:01,280
life.

689
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,160
I would say I agree with you on change is difficult.

690
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,240
For some people, change is more difficult than others.

691
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:15,120
Some people can change everything about their life like other people might change their

692
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:16,120
socks.

693
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:22,640
For others, change is like some kind of cellular thing where they're like, ugh, I was doing

694
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:29,760
this as part of my identity and now I don't.

695
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,320
It's not just eating veggie burgers and that's it.

696
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:39,800
If it was, you were a hunter and that was part of how you identified yourself as a hunter

697
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,960
and that your hobby was hunting and buying that gear and watching stuff and now you don't

698
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,640
do that and there's this moral quandary with you.

699
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,520
I get that.

700
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,120
For some people, it's going to be more difficult than others.

701
00:55:54,120 --> 00:56:01,120
But I think for the majority of people, it's not that hard.

702
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:02,120
But change is hard.

703
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,120
I'll grant you that.

704
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:05,120
Yes.

705
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:12,880
I think the hardest part is the change, that transition.

706
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:18,560
Let me get to a second contradiction I see in your story.

707
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:23,040
I started the conversation with the first one.

708
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,600
The G versus being free spirit.

709
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,920
What about the violence part?

710
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:41,400
For me, veganism rhymes with no violence and maybe I mix that a bit with my Buddhism.

711
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:49,080
For me, the military is in contradiction with that, with that vow of not perpetrating any

712
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,200
violence.

713
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,960
I guess first question is, do you also see that contradiction?

714
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:04,480
How do you explain that as a vegan, you are still attracted by the military?

715
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:15,440
And also from being a medic and being exposed to the violence of war, did that feed in any

716
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:24,800
way your veganism or your reflection on the violence we perpetrate on animals?

717
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:26,360
So many ways to answer that.

718
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:31,120
I'm going to start with this.

719
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:36,400
I got kicked out of ranger training very much toward the end.

720
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,840
I was very grumpy about that as you would guess.

721
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:52,520
Well, it kind of came maybe as a blessing in disguise in that if I had made it through

722
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:59,280
and if I hadn't been kicked out in some bogus bullshit, I would have made it through.

723
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:05,960
As a medic, I would have had to go to special operations medic training course, which would

724
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:10,920
have been great except at one point they were doing something that they called the goat

725
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:18,600
lab, which was they had a live goat and then they would shoot it or stab it and then have

726
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,640
you treat the goat for their injuries.

727
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,400
And then they would continue with that, I think they did that with pigs too and other

728
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:27,400
animals.

729
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,600
So you got hands-on experience.

730
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:39,880
I understand now that's 21 years since that time, since I did Afghanistan and since now

731
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:41,840
I've been in RN for 10 years.

732
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:49,040
I get what they were aiming at, but I think you could get similar training just working

733
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:55,320
in hospitals and similar training doing simulations and you don't need to have animals that you

734
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,200
do that horrible shit to.

735
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:08,200
I know 100% at that point that there was no way I was going to participate.

736
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:16,680
I would have sat out that I would have said I'm not going to do it.

737
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:25,880
But I reflected on my military training and I reflected on my military career after I

738
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:35,040
got out the first time and I understood that where I was at that point where I would have

739
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:41,520
had to go through that course was very different in my brain when I got back from Afghanistan.

740
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:53,040
I was still very much in sensitive vegan hippie mode when I was doing that training,

741
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:59,040
but after a year in Afghanistan and a lot of the unpleasantness that you could imagine

742
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,880
you see during war, I was very desensitized.

743
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:13,880
As a lot of vets are, and I think that's part of what you get in PTSD, you get a refocusing,

744
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:20,200
a reshaping of your brain to be able to handle situations that when you put yourself in a

745
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:27,360
different situation then makes you stand out and makes you kind of different than other

746
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:28,720
people.

747
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:36,600
The reason why I mention this is I'm sure that as evil as the, I still believe that

748
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:42,440
the goat lab was, well the first time I wouldn't have done it, the second time I don't know

749
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:47,640
how what my choice would have been, but I know I wouldn't have been affected mentally

750
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:54,640
by seeing animals or people or anybody suffer.

751
01:00:54,640 --> 01:01:02,760
After that experience it really was the only thing that still affected me was children.

752
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:12,680
I could see adults from both sides, but preferably not our side, but I could see adults suffering

753
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:18,480
and dying and it really wouldn't bother me, but when I saw a little child with a gunshot

754
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:24,760
or burns or blown up, it really fucked me up bad.

755
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:32,720
But I probably would have been desensitized to the point where they could have done awful

756
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:38,720
things in the name of training and while I probably would have still made the ethical

757
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:43,920
choice to not do it, if I had done it, it wouldn't have bothered me.

758
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:52,800
So I wasn't a vastly different mindset and a vastly different spot and that's not necessarily

759
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,200
good.

760
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:01,640
It's just what happens when you expose someone to those kind of conditions.

761
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:11,040
As far as being a vegan and being in the military as a medic, it made perfect sense.

762
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:18,000
It was just part of, again, the same positive, the PMA, positive mental attitude, let's make

763
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:19,840
the world a better place.

764
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:21,840
Is it a contradictory?

765
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:26,360
Yes, but I think there's two different worlds that exist.

766
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:32,200
There's a perfect world and then there's the world as it is.

767
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:38,760
The world that I strive for, the perfect world, well, let's see.

768
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:44,160
Animals aren't killed for food because that's stupid and we don't need to destroy the planet

769
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,480
or kill animals for food.

770
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:53,040
I would think in my perfect world there's also no war and I would also add no crime

771
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,680
and no guns.

772
01:02:54,680 --> 01:03:03,360
However, in the world that does exist, there is war, there is crime.

773
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:13,120
I see myself as 85% living in the world as it actually is and 15% of my head is like,

774
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:19,080
what could we do to make the world a better place?

775
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:25,360
I'm not opposed to the military as an organization and I believe it as a necessity given all

776
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,600
the threats that we have in the world today.

777
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:34,680
I feel the same way toward the police and other organizations that we need, a safety

778
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:40,800
net, we need people out there that are willing to risk their lives in difficult situations.

779
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:47,400
But in a perfect world, an ideal world, I would prefer there to be the need for none

780
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:48,400
of that.

781
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:56,760
But the world that we exist in now is a tough and scary place and unfortunately we still

782
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,320
need all that.

783
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:10,440
And I absolutely share this pragmatic sense that this is pragmaticism.

784
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:19,160
There are many accounts of slaughterhouse workers having PTSD from killing or from being

785
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:22,640
exposed to all the killing of animals.

786
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:31,760
And I think, well, I remember the first time I read that, I was a bit in disbelief, I think,

787
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:37,680
because for me that PTSD and that violence is associated with the military.

788
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:42,160
It's normal, it's natural, I understand that.

789
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:51,160
But those slaughterhouse workers, at first I felt a bit doubtful, but then when I read

790
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:58,000
more about the topic, I understood why they suffered that way.

791
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:06,240
And I guess it's, again, that was my old species and killing an animal versus killing a human.

792
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:13,080
But how do you think about those accounts?

793
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,400
Does it sound true?

794
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:24,280
Have you ever heard or spoken with people who had suffered from PTSD from working in

795
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,040
slaughterhouses?

796
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:32,440
I just want to have your take on that phenomenon.

797
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:37,160
Not directly, but I could see how that would happen.

798
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:43,240
If you're an animal lover, and most of us are, I would say 99% of people are in their

799
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:45,040
hearts animal lovers.

800
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:52,760
They're mostly vegan, they get being kind to animals, they just don't make the jump

801
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,000
to, oh, that means all animals.

802
01:05:55,000 --> 01:06:01,280
Because most of the people I know, even the hardened hunters, have a dog that they treat

803
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,160
like a child.

804
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:09,080
And just in those goofy videos of would you break the glass in a hot cart to get a dog

805
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:10,800
out, they would do the same.

806
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,080
They would go through great lengths like they would a child.

807
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:19,600
So yeah, I can understand that a lot of people who are doing that job, who are the money

808
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:26,480
because in this economy and the way the world works, you need money, I could see how it

809
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:33,480
would be awful for them and I could see how that would grind you down and the having to

810
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:40,640
see animal supper all day would for most people and make sure like a serial killer would be

811
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:41,720
awful for you.

812
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,240
So yeah, I could agree with that.

813
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:50,400
I would say try to get a different job, dude, but at the same point, I also acknowledge

814
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,600
not everyone's going to be in that spot.

815
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:58,440
I consider myself very lucky in that I've been able to make choices.

816
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,440
Not everyone has a life where they can make choices.

817
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:06,960
I would say most people should be able to have a life where they can make choices, but

818
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:11,560
it's not always like that in the real world.

819
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:15,480
In the ideal world, it's like that for everyone when no one no one has to do that and then

820
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,400
they have to then they don't have anyone to kill the animals and then then there's no

821
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:20,400
more slaughterhouses.

822
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,400
But I could I could get behind that.

823
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:31,800
It's really a sad situation because you know, they're they're suffering wounds and because

824
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:38,440
the mutilation rates in slaughterhouses is enormous, you know, you're surrounded by knives

825
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:43,560
and they're also wounded mentally with PTSD.

826
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:52,400
But at the same time, the job is not as appreciated as, you know, like a military job or it's

827
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,760
not the same thing, but they suffer the same.

828
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:06,560
And even their salary is does not justify that kind of level of hardship from from work.

829
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:14,080
So yes, I try to remind myself of of those people too.

830
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,440
So Bill, you're also an author.

831
01:08:17,440 --> 01:08:23,760
You have written three books, Vegan Strong, The Adventures of Sergeant Piggy and the newest

832
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,360
one, Dead Meat.

833
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:36,600
And I first want to talk about Dead Meat, so where I think you you bring us a bit, you

834
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:42,080
know, you show us that dark side and that darkness we've been talking about.

835
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:52,760
And for someone like me who likes horror movies, actually loves horror movies and horror books,

836
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:53,760
this is a treat.

837
01:08:53,760 --> 01:09:03,600
I haven't read the book yet, but I will definitely offer myself this book as a holiday gift.

838
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:09,720
I wish I had read the book for Halloween, but hey, not too late.

839
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:13,320
So Bill, what's that new book about?

840
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:19,920
And where did you find your this vocation of being a writer?

841
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,240
Thank you very much for that question.

842
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:33,280
So Dead Meat was a product of having lots of free time to myself during our COVID apocalypse.

843
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:39,520
And for those that can park in back four years ago to the COVID lockdowns, remember, it was

844
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:41,880
pretty dark and bleak.

845
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:46,000
And most of us had kind of a rough time through it.

846
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:52,960
Now a lot of people, other than people like myself who worked in hospitals, had saw COVID

847
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:58,640
as almost a boring vacation with some kind of weird side thing where you were having

848
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:02,960
to stand in line to get into a grocery store.

849
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:09,180
And you had to sport, you know, cleaner on your, your, your mail or something like that.

850
01:10:09,180 --> 01:10:16,520
But for me, I spent that time when I was at work in COVID words dealing with sick and

851
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:17,960
dying patients.

852
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:25,760
So it really got to me and it probably activated my already existing PTSD a bit.

853
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:33,720
So being in a dark time and kind of already having that bleakness and then kind of reliving

854
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,560
some of my military trauma.

855
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:39,840
I was like, okay, well, let me channel that into a spot.

856
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,320
And I had already written vegan strong book on how to be vegan, but written like an army

857
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:45,560
field manual.

858
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:50,800
And I had, after that, done the adventures of Sergeant Piggy, which was a super cute

859
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:54,320
book full of light for, for kids.

860
01:10:54,320 --> 01:11:03,640
I was like, let me just make, let me, let me put a mirror up to the animal egg and really

861
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,880
show it for what it is and that's dead meat.

862
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:09,600
It's bleak.

863
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,440
It's meant to be hard to, hard to read.

864
01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:15,920
It's, well, let me, let me, let me backtrack.

865
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:26,840
It's meant to be a fun, thrilling, violent ride, but also very, very bleak and dystopian.

866
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:34,840
If you put yourself in the shoes where the hooves of an animal being raised to be killed,

867
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:37,560
it's an awful thought.

868
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:41,440
And if you were in a society like that, how would you deal with it?

869
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:43,520
And that's dead meat.

870
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:51,240
It, it's meant to go off the rails and it's meant to be kind of hard to read in some spots

871
01:11:51,240 --> 01:12:00,360
and not necessarily offer a lot of light and, and hugs.

872
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:05,720
But I think, you know, at least Americans like the whole concept of Halloween and kind

873
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:11,160
of, you know, remembering that you're mortal and kind of like laughing at death.

874
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:17,640
And that's also one of the positives about dead meat, but it is pretty dark.

875
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:24,760
And most vets I know have, enjoy some dark humor and, and have made our peace with that.

876
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:30,520
I mean, because you have to be able to get through the military.

877
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:35,120
And let me add this.

878
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:40,640
I think I will also purchase Vick and Strong and the Adventures of Sergeant Piggy.

879
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:48,800
But also, you know, if you, if you're not going to read them, at least gift them to your public library.

880
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:54,960
Make you know, yes, make the list of vegan books they have longer, you know, make that

881
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:56,560
available to people.

882
01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:04,960
I think it's very important to, to, you know, the number of people who have told me I went

883
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:11,920
vegan because of this book, because of usually it's always Peter Singer and I'm all aberration.

884
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:16,240
But I hear other titles.

885
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:23,240
Don't underestimate the power of books and well written books.

886
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:29,760
So you know, get the Adventures of Sergeant Piggy, get vegan strong, make them available

887
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,640
for other people in your public library.

888
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:34,880
It's important.

889
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:36,160
I love that and I appreciate it.

890
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,000
Thank you very much for the shout out.

891
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:46,320
And yeah, I, I really think that the, it's when it comes to veganism, there's not one

892
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:49,360
person that has the key to the truth.

893
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:55,320
So whatever speaks to you, whatever voice, you know, whatever you need the person to

894
01:13:55,320 --> 01:14:02,520
look like or be like that's telling this truth, that's great because not unlike other movements

895
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:09,240
where it, where there's one person, some kind of one figure has the, all the truth.

896
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:14,800
This is a universal thing that you don't need to kill animals to eat stuff that you don't

897
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:19,120
need to eat to destroy a planet that doesn't want to be destroyed.

898
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:24,000
And it could be someone that has that, that puts that in the terms that work for you.

899
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:29,040
And if not, find someone else because there's, there's a lot of us that are saying exactly

900
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:31,480
the same thing in different ways.

901
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:36,320
Saying it differently, you know, maybe we have a shinier cover, you know, but it's,

902
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:37,320
it's all the same.

903
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:42,320
So as long as you get that message and whatever works for you, whatever secret sauce you needed

904
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:44,920
in and they get it.

905
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:45,920
Wonderful.

906
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:52,240
Bill, if there was a vegan pantheon, you would be up there 100%.

907
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:55,960
You're one of the vegan heroes.

908
01:14:55,960 --> 01:15:01,320
Did you want to add something before we end this conversation?

909
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:07,480
Just that you already mentioned my books, please check me out on social media that's

910
01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:12,400
sergeantvegan.com or sgtvegan.com.

911
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:19,600
And I'm sgt underscore vegan on Instagram, sgt space vegan on Facebook.

912
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:26,720
And feel free to comment on this, what you liked about it.

913
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:32,560
And you, when you see, see this on, on Instagram, what you liked, what you didn't like, you

914
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:39,640
know, and ask vegan questions if you have them from me or, or him or really anyone else.

915
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:44,200
Because none of this knowledge needs to be gate kept.

916
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:48,440
It's all, it all should be free and in domain.

917
01:15:48,440 --> 01:15:49,640
I agree.

918
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,760
And links will be provided in the show notes.

919
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:59,480
So go visit the description and yes, you'll get the links.

920
01:15:59,480 --> 01:16:02,920
So Bill, I hope you liked this conversation.

921
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:03,920
I loved it.

922
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:05,760
I really enjoyed it.

923
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:10,640
Thank you so much for having stopped by and having answered my questions.

924
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,760
And again, thank you for your service.

925
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:14,760
Thank you for having me.

926
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:15,760
I appreciate it.

927
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:17,440
Thank you everyone for listening.

928
01:16:17,440 --> 01:16:21,800
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

929
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:24,960
Let's encourage more people to take action.

930
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:52,120
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.