1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,640
Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.

2
00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:13,200
Today we are shedding light on the challenge of raising a vegan kid in a non-vegan world

3
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:19,800
and to discuss this topic I have with me Adam Walsh, an animal rights activist, a long time

4
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:28,040
vegan and a father who has deeply thought about how to successfully transmit his values

5
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:29,820
to his son.

6
00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:36,200
He shares those thoughts in this beautiful book titled Bacon is a Vegetable, which is

7
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,640
available for order now, I left a link in the description.

8
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:47,520
Adam is also a colleague, a fellow animal rights podcaster, I highly recommend his show,

9
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,160
Easy for Animals, again link in the description below.

10
00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:56,840
Okay so Adam, welcome to the show, thank you so much for being here.

11
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:58,840
Of course, thank you for having me.

12
00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:07,480
I was really looking forward to this conversation because I wanted to talk about the book, yes,

13
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:15,400
but also you're a fellow vegan podcaster and we connected on social media and I thought

14
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:22,760
yeah, let's talk about this, what it's like to be a podcaster in the vegan space.

15
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,640
Yeah, yeah and I think we started our podcast at a very similar time as well.

16
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,920
We've I think done about five times more episodes than I have, so quite a bit more experience,

17
00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,520
but yeah, it's been very interesting.

18
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:44,400
I think initially I started my podcast as a way of increasing my experience I suppose

19
00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,720
in things like public speaking and putting yourself in front of the camera instead of

20
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,320
behind it and these kinds of things.

21
00:01:53,320 --> 00:02:01,240
But I ended up learning quite a bit from the guests as well, so I hope other people have

22
00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,680
learnt some things from it, but I feel like I've taken a lot from the guests.

23
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,360
Yes, that's a good way of putting it.

24
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:17,960
This podcast is for me something like a vegan school where I'm just learning so much about

25
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,600
everything that has to do with animal rights and about myself.

26
00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:29,760
Yeah, yeah, especially when guests often say things that makes me think a little bit and

27
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,760
think well would I put it in that way or do I even think that or is that a new idea.

28
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:41,920
I often find myself not getting stuck but having long pauses after they finished answering

29
00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:45,280
a question so that I can contemplate their answer.

30
00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:51,560
Yeah, I think another aspect of mine that I tried to do as well was to prove that you

31
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:57,640
can have conversations with people who you may be, as animal activists or as vegans,

32
00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,440
who we may be actively opposing.

33
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:07,240
So I've had people on who are essentially the mirror image of us, I suppose, that they're

34
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,200
advocating for the use of animals in particularly biomedical research.

35
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,960
I did two episodes where in one of them we talked about the use of non-animal methods

36
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,600
in their labs and the other one we talked about transparency and researchers talking

37
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,840
more about the animals that are used and the need for statistics and things like this.

38
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:32,440
So even though we don't agree on a whole bunch of things, I think I've proved to myself and

39
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,300
hopefully to other people that we can still have conversations with people on the other

40
00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:42,560
side of the fence, I suppose, so to speak, that we can find some common ground and work

41
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,000
towards those things potentially together or at the very least, I guess, in the example

42
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,280
to have a conversation about those things.

43
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,520
Do you have any plans for your podcast?

44
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,400
Not at the moment, life has started getting in the way a little more.

45
00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,680
So I think I've only this year I did about three or four episodes.

46
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,280
And one in particular, which I often think about quite a lot, I would like to get back

47
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,960
to it and revisit a little bit.

48
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:14,180
I think I have these like grand ideas for it and that every episode has to kind of approach

49
00:04:14,180 --> 00:04:22,440
a big subject and talk about parenting or communication or whatever it might be.

50
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,040
But maybe just having more organic conversations, some of those things might come out a little

51
00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,760
bit as well and people talk more about those experiences.

52
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,800
So yeah, maybe I need to relax my approach to it a little bit.

53
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:44,640
When I started podcasting, I looked for other vegan podcasts and there are so many lists

54
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:52,880
out there and I would go through those lists and most of those podcasts were inactive,

55
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,840
had been inactive for years for some of them.

56
00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:05,480
It's hard to keep a podcast active, live, afloat.

57
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,080
I don't know.

58
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:15,960
I wish more vegan podcasters were present in the podcasting scene.

59
00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:25,200
I know another podcast that was born at the same time as ours was Sanctuary Life Podcast

60
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:34,440
and they did like I think 10, 12, 8, I don't remember, but a few episodes and then they

61
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,520
stopped and they were successful.

62
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,840
It surprised me.

63
00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:43,960
Yeah, yeah.

64
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:51,440
At least here in Australia, there's very, very limited opportunity to be a professional

65
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,480
animal advocate, I suppose.

66
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,840
Depending on what your definition of that term is, we have RSPCA, which is quite problematic,

67
00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:05,520
but people who work there may still see themselves as animal advocates.

68
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:12,480
The proper real activist groups, there's maybe a handful at best of employment opportunities

69
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:13,480
in those.

70
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:19,560
We all do these things in our spare time, I suppose, in our evenings and our weekends,

71
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,640
which at some points, I suppose you can carve out the time for them.

72
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:29,080
But as we know, life kind of ebbs and flows a little bit that one month you'll have every

73
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:34,640
weekend free and you've got a lot of time to sit and edit and obsess over the way that

74
00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,460
people said certain things and whether we need to include that in the final conversation

75
00:06:38,460 --> 00:06:44,620
or the next month, every weekend is so full that you don't even have time to make a cup

76
00:06:44,620 --> 00:06:47,120
of tea for yourself.

77
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:54,120
So to maintain a schedule is quite difficult, but I think at least from our side of it,

78
00:06:54,120 --> 00:07:00,280
getting the time that is spent putting into even when everything goes well, when you reach

79
00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:05,120
out to someone and they say yes, and you meet at a time and you record it and it goes well

80
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,280
and there's minimal editing, that could still be a 10-hour investment for a one-hour episode.

81
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:16,960
And then sometimes we get the times wrong, the audio quality is not very good and you

82
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,960
have to re-record certain bits.

83
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,560
Because all these other factors that come into it as well, so it could often turn into

84
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:30,200
a part-time job just for one single episode a week is a part-time job sometimes.

85
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,720
Oh my gosh.

86
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,960
Thank you for saying that.

87
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:40,200
Yes, that's now my life.

88
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,160
It's very kind of thankless as well, isn't it?

89
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:48,600
That I mean, like we say, I feel that we learn a lot from it and we hope that other people

90
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,240
get a lot from it, but we'll sit there and I'll refresh Spotify sometimes and see if

91
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,920
anyone else has rated it or check the morning of a release and see if anyone's listened

92
00:07:58,920 --> 00:07:59,920
to it on the first day.

93
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:06,360
But it's kind of the, apart from friends and families, the only feedback we get is a listen,

94
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,480
but then we don't know how anyone's even received the episode or whether someone stumbled across

95
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,960
it because it had a keyword in it that matches their other podcasts.

96
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:19,600
But usually they listen to Joe Rogan and not animal activism.

97
00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:26,040
It's very difficult to stay motivated apart from the fact that we do it for animals, I

98
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,040
guess.

99
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,320
That's the hard part.

100
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:39,920
At first I almost quit this podcasting business because I kept focusing on the number of downloads

101
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:47,480
and how many people were listening and I was thinking, I'm putting so much effort and energy

102
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,440
in this episode for what?

103
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:56,480
For a few dozen downloads?

104
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:57,480
I mean, yeah.

105
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,600
And episodes that you think.

106
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,800
I did one with an Australian activist.

107
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:10,600
He is, as far as I understand, like the group or regional leader for We the Free in Australia

108
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,960
and New Zealand, I believe.

109
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,600
And we had a conversation and I was inspired by one of the episodes that you did about

110
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:23,720
conservatives because I think particularly in Australia, we have this big gap between

111
00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:30,440
even like the left side, the animal appreciating left side and everybody else.

112
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,400
And most of the everybody else is conservative.

113
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,280
So I kind of talked about him with this and I added it as a bonus episode.

114
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:38,760
So it was only about 10 minutes.

115
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,800
I thought that was a good trial to see how a shorter episode might go.

116
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,880
It was more conversational and I thought, wow, this is really good.

117
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,640
I learned a lot from this.

118
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,440
He mentioned a few really good things.

119
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,520
This one's going to like impact people.

120
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,080
People are going to love this.

121
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,760
And again, I'm sitting there like refreshing.

122
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,440
I'm like, why is it not taking?

123
00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,320
Why is it like, I feel like I invested so much of my hope in this episode that this

124
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,480
was the one that I was going to change the world with.

125
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,440
And you know, 50 people had a go at it.

126
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:19,560
Well, you know, my I reached out actually on Reddit on the podcasting sub Reddit and

127
00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:28,880
I asked other podcasters, you know, I just I guess I just rented and I was like, here's

128
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,880
what I'm going through.

129
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,720
I have this vegan podcast.

130
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:41,480
So I know most of you won't relate to it, but yeah, podcasting is hard and the people,

131
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:50,320
you know, just reach out like a wave of positive comments and advice.

132
00:10:50,320 --> 00:11:00,840
And I had this particular person, you know, his name is Ryan, weirdly enough, and he's

133
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:09,880
also a podcaster and he just, you know, gave gave me attention and time as some kind of

134
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:20,240
mentor and, you know, reminded me of why I'm doing what I'm doing and to seek pleasure

135
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,600
in, you know, what I'm doing.

136
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:33,880
And honestly, now it's better that I guess that the podcast has taken off from that,

137
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,400
you know, period.

138
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,040
But I'm doing it for the fun of it.

139
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,100
That's the, you know, the bottom line.

140
00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:53,400
If the day I will stop having fun, you know, having those conversations and editing everything

141
00:11:53,400 --> 00:12:04,160
and then releasing it to the public, I will stop because you need this, you know, you

142
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:10,640
need something positive to get something out of this experience.

143
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:16,360
I'm not getting any money, so at least I'm getting, you know, fun.

144
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:17,680
I'm getting challenged.

145
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:21,520
I'm getting stimulated by this whole experience.

146
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:22,520
Yeah.

147
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:30,760
And I think too that like part of our activism, at least what I think it should be, and sometimes

148
00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:36,280
people are very, or other activists are very hesitant to create communities with people

149
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,440
who are not directly involved in what we do.

150
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,720
Like we try not to have vegan friends or we try not to have friends who are not activists

151
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,760
and things like that.

152
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:49,760
That even like reaching out to other podcasters and saying, I have a vegan podcast.

153
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,520
Well that then gets them interested in what you're doing.

154
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,920
So that is another aspect of how these things can be successful.

155
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,760
That's finding ways, I often say that we don't need to build our own communities.

156
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,080
We just need to find a way into other people's communities.

157
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,860
And whether that's through environmentalism or through podcasting or through whatever

158
00:13:08,860 --> 00:13:14,120
it might be, as long as the animals are at the core of our message, then yeah, like if

159
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,880
it's a podcasting community and suddenly they're interested in kind of motivating you or helping

160
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,800
you out or things like that, they're going to take an interest in yours.

161
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,760
And there'll be someone in there who will say, I might listen to this and see what,

162
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,360
you know, see what he's on about.

163
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,560
And they hear one of your episodes and that changes the way they think.

164
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:38,040
And it's, it's like another way to, like just promoting a podcast as well.

165
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,600
It's another way of, of reaching out to people.

166
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:42,840
Yes.

167
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:51,480
And the idea that some of the people I love the most and I admire will accept to give

168
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,400
an hour of their time to speak with me just because I have a podcast.

169
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,180
I mean, this is incredible.

170
00:13:58,180 --> 00:14:02,440
This is like, uh, just amazing.

171
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,360
And let me give you an example.

172
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,880
I did an episode with whispers read, uh, who is this ASMR artist.

173
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:18,440
I have been listening to whispers, uh, read videos since back when I started college and

174
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:24,600
to have her, you know, on the show, to be able to interview her and to connect with

175
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,160
her was just amazing.

176
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,480
I thought, thank you.

177
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,920
Thank you for sticking to doing, you know, this podcast.

178
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:42,920
And you know, if I had left this, this whole business, um, and it's a business, you know,

179
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:48,040
starting a podcast is like starting a really small business.

180
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:56,880
But if I had left, I would not have had this, um, meeting this encounter with this amazing

181
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:57,880
person.

182
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,360
And I'm thinking, you know, it was worth it.

183
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:06,000
Uh, the, the pain of, uh, of everything was worth this pleasant conversation and meeting

184
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,040
this wonderful person.

185
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:09,040
Yeah.

186
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,680
Yeah, that's right.

187
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,960
It's an often say when we're talking about considering like businesses and marketing

188
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,800
and things like that, they'll say, we need to consider our strengths, our weaknesses,

189
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,400
our opportunities and our threats.

190
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,880
And I was only having this conversation with someone the other day.

191
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,680
I don't think we need to consider strengths and weaknesses and threats.

192
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:34,180
I think we just need to look for the opportunities because we naturally use our strengths.

193
00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:37,520
We shouldn't really consider or shouldn't really worry too much about the threats.

194
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,280
We should just do the things that we know are right.

195
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,520
And weaknesses can be turned around through taking advantage of opportunities.

196
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,840
And that's the only thing we need to really pay attention to the opportunities because

197
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,280
that's, that's where it leads to.

198
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,760
It can lead to, yeah, sometimes meeting the people you admire the most.

199
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,160
Yeah, we're not corporations.

200
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,720
We're just one person.

201
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:09,920
We don't have time to, to design a social media plan and, uh, do this SWOT, uh, analysis

202
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,240
of what we're providing to the public.

203
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,840
You know, we're just doing our best.

204
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,960
Yeah, that's right.

205
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:18,960
Yeah.

206
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,880
And, um, I think it definitely leads to some great places, even if it's just in yourself

207
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:31,280
and it might not be a direct, um, benefit of doing the podcast, but like helping in

208
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,200
outreach, helping in everyday conversations, we get more confident at talking about these

209
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,200
things.

210
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,200
Okay.

211
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:42,140
Podcasting is one way to connect with, uh, people.

212
00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:50,560
Another one is of course, writing a book, see the segue here.

213
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:56,400
And I have, you know, in my hand, uh, bacon is a vegetable.

214
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,080
First of all, how did you feel about publishing this book?

215
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:10,440
Because just, you know, doing a podcast, I get, well, I used to be really afraid, like

216
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,800
I'm going to put this out there.

217
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:19,400
Um, and people will hear my thoughts and you know, they hear, they will hear me talk about

218
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,640
what I think and what if I say the wrong thing?

219
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,440
What if, um, I say something stupid?

220
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:37,600
Uh, I had this fear of judgment, but at least, you know, I could edit the podcast and I could,

221
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,680
you know, publish another episode the week after maybe to correct myself.

222
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:48,360
That's the, the stories I would tell myself to feel better about, um, you know, posting

223
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:53,360
an episode, but your book, you can't do that with your book.

224
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:56,640
It's no, you can't take it back.

225
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,080
So how did you feel about publishing it?

226
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,720
Um, yes, it was very mixed.

227
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:08,400
Um, I think I've always put a lot of weight in books and I know there are quite a few

228
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,080
ridiculous books that we now have.

229
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,880
Um, but I've always put a lot of weight in books.

230
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,760
I think 99% of my knowledge or understanding of the world and things like that have come

231
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,800
from what I've read.

232
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,640
Um, and it didn't, I don't believe it started out with the intention of being a book.

233
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:33,520
It was more just me kind of having like my, my wife is pregnant while I was writing or

234
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,520
reading these things.

235
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:41,920
And I was kind of making notes and, and it kind of just evolved into a book, but it was

236
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:50,760
me kind of understanding the initial story was that I, my, my niece and my sister's daughter

237
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,880
used to rescue worms from the driveway when it rained because she didn't want them to

238
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:55,880
get squashed.

239
00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,840
And then a few years later, like we all do, we end up eating meat when we're five or six

240
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,760
years old, just as part of the family, um, meals.

241
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,320
And I kind of, it just sat with me one day, I'm now going to have a child and I wanted

242
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:17,040
to understand how you went from caring about worms, which even as adults, we, and animal

243
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,280
people, we still barely care about worms through to eating meat.

244
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,080
So how, how do we get, get through those points?

245
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:31,040
And one of the first things I read, which is where the title came from, was about how,

246
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:37,280
um, how the language that we use, or I think I was probably quite harsh with some of my

247
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,280
words.

248
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:46,160
I used words like deception, um, in saying things like that's not an animal, that's a

249
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,640
plant.

250
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,360
And in this report, it was called, um, children are unsuspecting meat eaters.

251
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:58,480
There was a third of children thought that bacon came from a plant.

252
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,600
And I use that example as the, the title of the book, cause I thought it was a bit more,

253
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,240
you know, sensationalist, I suppose, I might get people to grab it off the shelf.

254
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,960
Um, but a more surprising one was about the same number of people, uh, children, a third

255
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,560
of them thought that chicken nuggets came from a plant, even though it has an animal

256
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,960
name in the product, they still thought it came from plants.

257
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,880
And I thought, well, where, where do they get this information from?

258
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,840
And I thought, well, if they're not getting it from anywhere else, they must be getting

259
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,560
it from Google because surely their parents are not lying to them adults.

260
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,840
We tell people to grow up as like an ambition.

261
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,400
You should, you know, you should want to be a grownup.

262
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,800
So surely grownups are not lying to their children.

263
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,080
They must be getting it from Google.

264
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,080
It's got to be the internet.

265
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,600
We're told all the problems are the fault of the internet.

266
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:56,120
And so I Googled it and apart from a couple of jokes, and there was an anime episode that

267
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,160
had a meat tree.

268
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,120
Um, I couldn't find anything.

269
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:04,280
It wasn't like someone had made this, you know, drawing this long line between bacon

270
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:05,280
and vegetable.

271
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,280
There was nothing.

272
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,240
So I thought the only place it's coming from is their parents or their teachers or like

273
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,040
someone is telling them, no, that's not, that's not an animal.

274
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,040
It's different.

275
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,240
And so I kind of, as I tend to do, I don't, when I say I read a lot, I don't just read

276
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,640
one or two books on a subject.

277
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,960
I'll read 15 or 20.

278
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:30,680
So I like, and from both perspectives as well, I'll often look at what does the other side

279
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:31,680
say?

280
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,000
Like I agree with this side, but you know, obviously the earth is a sphere, but what

281
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,000
if it wasn't?

282
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,400
Maybe I'll read a book about flood earth and see what they have to say.

283
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:48,200
But this one like really took me down like more of a practical part, because this was

284
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,920
kind of, I think I write it as more of a guide for myself of like identifying the points

285
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,960
along where my son's going to encounter some of these things as he grows up and what I

286
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,600
can do to help educate him better, I suppose.

287
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:09,080
Um, and not necessarily, you know, indoctrinate him like all of us vegans do with our children,

288
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:15,760
but um, yeah, I kind of just guide him in the right ways and make sure that he doesn't

289
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:21,680
think that bacon is a vegetable.

290
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:28,320
That's something I really love about the book that it is the trigger for it is the fact

291
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:37,480
that you are going to become a father and you have to really think totally about how

292
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:47,520
to raise your child and think about your vegan values and how to, I guess, transmit that

293
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,640
to, to your son.

294
00:22:50,640 --> 00:23:05,400
And I love how it's a really personal and vulnerable reflection and you it's even chronological.

295
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:13,640
So you know, we follow you through that adventure, intellectual adventure.

296
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:23,640
And yeah, I guess if we stay on the theme of fear for most vegan parents out there,

297
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:33,280
maybe that's a really big fear to have a child who one day will grow up to deny, well, reject

298
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:45,520
his vegan values, the vegan values that his parents had, um, and become a one more, uh,

299
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,600
meat eater.

300
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:56,240
And so I think that book is also very helpful to address that fear, that legitimate fear

301
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:03,760
and problem that many vegan parents out there might be experiencing.

302
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,760
Yeah, that's right.

303
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:12,040
And even, um, even in referring to your previous question, um, like the personal fear of putting

304
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,880
these thoughts into the page that I often say that, and maybe we do all think this of

305
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,920
ourselves sit in this little weird spot that doesn't fit into many boxes.

306
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:30,240
Like I'm vegan and I'm atheist and I'm harshly honest, but I'm also very realistic.

307
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:40,400
So I, I think I'm accepting of the fact that it's likely he's going to eat meat.

308
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,280
I mean, it's almost certain that he will at some point want to try it, but given, you

309
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,600
know, just the makeup of our society and the friends that he's going to have and these

310
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,240
kinds of things, it's likely that he's going to eat meat.

311
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:59,200
But we often joke that we've got a few big farm sanctuaries, um, around Melbourne here.

312
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,280
And so we often joke that if he ever has a, you know, a beef burger or a chicken nugget

313
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,480
or something, the following day we'll be going to a sanctuary just to say, well, now you

314
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:12,240
need to talk to the chicken and you need to explain why you ate their friend so that he,

315
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:18,480
like he's got this constant reminder that this is what I'm contributing to.

316
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:24,240
And I think it's, it's kind of balancing the values, I guess, too.

317
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:30,840
That is that I would say that probably honesty is one of the biggest values that we have

318
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,600
and being honest about, you know, I need to pay for someone to kill an animal for me to

319
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,600
eat.

320
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:43,000
Well, then also with that comes a lot of other things that we maybe can't control quite as

321
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:52,440
much that even as vegans, it's, there's a quote in the book from American journalist

322
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,440
called Michael Levitan.

323
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,200
And he says, is that why we all hate vegans?

324
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,780
Because we agree that they're morally superior.

325
00:25:58,780 --> 00:26:05,960
So even like even he's admitting that, like what they're doing is right, or it's, I don't

326
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:13,320
even turn better, but it's, you know, they've realized so that he's admitting that like

327
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,760
they're morally superior or he's suggesting this.

328
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,400
But he's also saying that's why we hate them, because we understand that they know something

329
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,000
that we don't know.

330
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,920
So I think just making sure that he, he makes that connection for himself, because we all,

331
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:38,160
we all have, maybe not all of us, but most people, I imagine most vegans, and all the

332
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,880
vegans who I have met have had some kind of, you know, moment in their life where they

333
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,560
watched a documentary or saw a chicken being slaughtered or whatever it might be that triggered

334
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,660
them into becoming vegan.

335
00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:57,620
And so by like, I hypothesize this in the book as well, that, that may be that we need

336
00:26:57,620 --> 00:27:03,560
to be exposed to animal cruelty to appreciate that animals are harmed, which is very, very

337
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,840
hard to accept.

338
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:16,700
But it could be that I have to allow him to eat meat and then to foster the environment

339
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:22,280
in which he will be exposed to animal cruelty, even if it's just through a documentary, so

340
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:29,760
that he can, that switch will trigger in him himself and not because he's been told to,

341
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,120
but because he's lying to it for himself.

342
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:42,840
What do you say to the many vegans out there who are anti-natalists, who don't want to

343
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:52,640
bother with having children because of those deep, you know, moral problems, puzzles?

344
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:59,240
Yeah, I think even, cause I was, I don't think I was anti-natalist, but I think personally,

345
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,760
I just didn't see much of a point in having children.

346
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,760
Like I kind of, maybe for selfish reasons, you know, I enjoyed my life.

347
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,040
I liked the things that I was doing.

348
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,320
I enjoy going on holidays.

349
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:15,040
And then my girlfriend at the time is now my wife, we, like, she wanted a few kids.

350
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,880
So I don't like to say that he was the compromise because we didn't compromise on him.

351
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,880
He's wonderful.

352
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:30,560
But I had this thing where I thought, I don't think most people really think about why they

353
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:31,560
have children.

354
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,280
I think they just have them because other people have children.

355
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,960
You'll often see a friend group, for example, all of their kids are the same age.

356
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,720
They've all had their kids at the same time.

357
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:47,320
So we kind of, you know, over the course of quite a while, and this was, you know, through

358
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,340
our relationship and we'd gone to Cambodia and we've gone to India for a few months.

359
00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:57,280
So we kind of had a lot of time to really sit and consider this question.

360
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,820
And we kind of boiled it down to, because we want to pass on our experiences.

361
00:29:01,820 --> 00:29:06,980
We want the next generation to be better at what they need to be better at than we have

362
00:29:06,980 --> 00:29:09,200
been.

363
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:15,000
And I guess the short way of responding would be that if vegans didn't have children, then

364
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:21,920
vegans may die out because we're perpetually going to be have to, we're always going to

365
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:27,640
be trying to convince people to not eat meat as opposed to raising vegans.

366
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:35,400
And I know that kind of sounds a bit cultish because that's what some, you know, like,

367
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,240
for example, religious groups do.

368
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,620
They'll say, well, we need to have 10 kids so that we can pass on our knowledge and populate

369
00:29:41,620 --> 00:29:44,400
all these kinds of things.

370
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:51,860
But I think there's like a, there's like a point where there is too many kids, but there's

371
00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:55,880
also a point where there's not enough kids with the right values and the right families.

372
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,120
And there's, I mean, depending on which reports you read, there's some reports that, you know,

373
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:09,360
for like doctors and teachers and all these like more educated, more like people who consider

374
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,720
their lives a bit more and consider their impact on the world.

375
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,800
They're the ones who have less kids and the people who don't care about the world have

376
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,440
more kids.

377
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:27,040
So like using Hollywood as an example, I suppose, where like that potential direction is idiocracy,

378
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,680
where the dumbest person in the world is suddenly the smartest person in the world.

379
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,760
And we're all watering our crops with Coca-Cola.

380
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,360
That there's like, there's a way that we can help prevent that.

381
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,400
And I think it's like, I always return to education.

382
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,480
It's all through education.

383
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,160
And sometimes that happens.

384
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,800
It has to start at home with our own children.

385
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,200
But it's equally valid that if other people are having thoughts that, you know, they don't

386
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,800
want children, they don't see the point.

387
00:30:53,800 --> 00:31:01,040
Like I said, I don't think there is a need to have children if you like your life, you

388
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,040
like what you do, you don't see the point, then that's equally valid.

389
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,040
Yeah.

390
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,040
Yes.

391
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,280
That movie is amazing.

392
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,280
It's so insightful.

393
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,280
It's so ridiculous.

394
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,280
It's so insightful.

395
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,280
It's bizarre, isn't it?

396
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,280
It's yeah, it's the most ridiculous film.

397
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,040
And even watching them, I feel silly for watching this film.

398
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,600
Like the philosophical analysis of it is amazing.

399
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:27,600
Yeah.

400
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:36,160
Well, let me ask you this directly, because I think the ties between this movie and veganism

401
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:45,840
and this anti-natalist trend in the vegan community is far greater than we think.

402
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,280
And I've been pondering over that.

403
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:56,560
Do you think that there is a relationship, there's a correlation or relation between

404
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,280
being smarter and becoming vegan?

405
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:07,880
And I remember, you know, in the first years when I was considering becoming vegan, I would

406
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,400
go and look up, you know, famous vegan people.

407
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:19,360
And you had all the great minds of, you know, you had, I think Einstein was vegetarian,

408
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,720
you had Da Vinci, you had all of those great minds.

409
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:31,600
And so I'm really wondering, do you think that smarter people tend to consider more

410
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:37,520
seriously, you know, becoming vegan, vegetarian and so on?

411
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:45,680
But yeah, I guess breaking it down even more, it depends on what we define as like smart

412
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,600
or intelligent, I guess, as well.

413
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,000
I would probably say no, because a lot of the people that I admire aren't vegan or vegetarian.

414
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,680
I think they try hard to be.

415
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,040
And it wasn't the last time he was in Melbourne, but the time before I went to see Richard

416
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,920
Dawkins talk.

417
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,880
And this was before I was vegan or vegetarian.

418
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,280
And I remember someone saying to him, the whole question was just, why are you not vegetarian?

419
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,680
And this is from someone who I, and I still look up to, who I have admired and learned

420
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,560
from for most of my life.

421
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,840
And he's always got the answers for everything.

422
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,400
Like he considers things very well so that he always has the answers for things.

423
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:33,280
And even in the interview or the questions leading up to that one, he answered them so

424
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,760
well and like so powerfully.

425
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,040
And this one, there was just silence.

426
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,960
And he just looked up from his chair and just said, I don't know.

427
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,520
I don't have a good answer for that.

428
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,000
And I think that's part of the reason why I like him is because he does allow himself

429
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,200
to be vulnerable like that and admit when he doesn't have the answer.

430
00:33:52,200 --> 00:34:00,400
And I put a quote in my book from him that something about the evolution of a hippopotamus.

431
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,760
And he said, it's going to be hard to accept, but I guess I'm going to have to.

432
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:05,760
And I kind of like that.

433
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,440
That he's like, even if I don't believe, he might say that he doesn't believe things,

434
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,720
but even if I don't believe that I'm going to have to because it's a fact.

435
00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:21,840
And so I don't, yeah, like it depends on, like if we look at someone like him and say,

436
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,240
well, he's intelligent, he's not vegan.

437
00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:24,720
So maybe it's not a smart thing.

438
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:34,800
But then, like you said, there's other, like some literal geniuses who were at least vegetarian.

439
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,800
I don't know.

440
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:43,000
I don't know if it's necessarily that vegans are smarter or smarter people are vegan.

441
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:50,360
I think it depends a lot on what your interests are and possibly even like your experiences.

442
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:58,600
Like I said, that I supported Animals Australia and Sea Shepherd even before I was vegetarian.

443
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:05,000
So of course I was outraged at factory farming while I was sitting there eating my chicken.

444
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:11,400
And I thought it was horrible that we're wailing in the oceans, but it just didn't click for

445
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,760
me until I had a personal experience.

446
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:21,360
I went to Cambodia and walked through a food market and there was scaling fish and slurring

447
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,360
the throats of chickens.

448
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,640
And it just like seeing it right in front of me was the trigger.

449
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,880
I don't, yeah, I think there's lots of sub communities within veganism as well, which

450
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:44,800
I was going to say troubling, but not troubling, but I think from my perspective being a realistic

451
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:51,440
based honest kind of person that, you know, like a lot of vegans are also into wellness

452
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,440
things and they don't take vaccines and all these kinds of things.

453
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:07,720
I know that's a whole nother conversation as well, but I think there's this maybe idealized

454
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:16,760
kind of person that's healthy and morally superior, like we were saying the quote before,

455
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,960
and that person has to be vegan.

456
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,520
But those kinds of perspectives would only come from vegans as well.

457
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,560
I'm not sure that we would ask if we asked a meat eater or anyone else in the population

458
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,360
if smarter people are vegan, their immediate response is going to be, of course not.

459
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,280
I'm not sure if that's really much of an answer.

460
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,320
It's just me thinking about the question, but it is.

461
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:48,600
And another argument against vegans being smarter is personified by Neil deGrasse Tyson.

462
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,400
And I know you also mentioned him in the book.

463
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,040
I think in the first pages.

464
00:36:54,040 --> 00:37:00,880
And it's one thing to be, you know, passively non-vegan like Richard Dawkins.

465
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:12,280
It's another to push the most ridiculous arguments against veganism and be this incredibly intelligent

466
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,160
man.

467
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:23,120
When you try to understand what's happening here, how can Neil deGrasse Tyson be talking

468
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,960
about plants having emotions?

469
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,880
Well, I'll let you talk about it.

470
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,720
Yeah, well, exactly.

471
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:38,800
And I mean, even just being factually wrong saying that I think he's and I'm not going

472
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:44,600
to get the quote right, but his quote was something like there's two kinds of food,

473
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,200
animal based food where you don't have to kill anything or anyone, we would say.

474
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,480
And that's milk and honey.

475
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,680
But of course, exactly.

476
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,840
We hear that statement, we just think, well, that's ridiculous.

477
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,160
Of course, where do you think veal comes from?

478
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:06,480
And what do you think happens to the cows after they're too old to produce enough milk

479
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,160
anymore, not even no milk, but enough milk, as if they just go off and live down the back

480
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,320
of the farm and they have happy, wonderful lives.

481
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:16,760
And that's right.

482
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,280
I think that was that was exactly my point.

483
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:25,280
I think firstly, that if you're not like if it's not in your interest area to go out of

484
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,780
your way to say, what about this?

485
00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:33,360
And then even another step further and saying, but don't plants bleed?

486
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,400
Doesn't a tree suffocate?

487
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,160
Like it's beyond ridiculous.

488
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:44,360
If that chapter of the book, I believe it was called Starry Messenger, if that didn't

489
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,320
have someone's name on it, we would be laughing the whole way through it.

490
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:55,000
And it's like it's a different thing when you attach someone like him to it.

491
00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,720
And you think how is someone of that intelligence or that understanding of how not just the

492
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:07,840
world works, but the universe works so ignorant on something that's fundamentally true about

493
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,320
biology and about farming and all these kinds of things.

494
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:19,000
But it kind of comes back to something that we learned, or we hopefully learned during

495
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,920
the COVID pandemic, was that just because someone has doctor in front of their name

496
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,880
or PhD after it doesn't mean they're an expert in everything.

497
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,120
And like a good example is Australia's performance at the Olympics.

498
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:40,680
Our break dancing person has a PhD in break dancing.

499
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,120
Ray Gunn, I think her name was.

500
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,120
Yeah.

501
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:45,120
Yeah.

502
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:52,000
So like trying to, I believe it's called the white coat effect that, you know, someone

503
00:39:52,000 --> 00:40:00,440
who's a doctor of astronomy should probably not be commenting too much on biology or evolution

504
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,600
beyond their general understanding of it.

505
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:08,120
Like that's for, you know, Richard Dawkins can comment on biology because he's a biologist

506
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:14,960
and Neil deGrasse Tyson can comment on astrology, astronomy, sorry, because he's an astronomer.

507
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:21,200
He's not a biologist, even though he would have a general understanding of that.

508
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:29,040
And yeah, there's lots of these experiments that have been done where people go into shopping

509
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,320
malls, for example, and have medical information on a table.

510
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,280
And it's exactly the same two days in a row.

511
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,640
The only difference is that one day the person is dressed in normal clothes and the next

512
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,080
day they're dressed in a white coat.

513
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,060
And the day that they're wearing a white coat, people talk to them more, they listen more,

514
00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:49,000
they take more information.

515
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,440
It's the exact same thing.

516
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,240
It's not different, but it's just because they're wearing a white coat.

517
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:57,960
And we kind of do the same things when we go to GPs.

518
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:05,720
We think our GPs are so wonderful and amazing because they're doctors, but they're also

519
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:06,720
GPs.

520
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,080
Like they're not, if your leg needs to be amputated and you're not going to go to your

521
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,760
GP, you're going to go to a specialist.

522
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,600
Like they're kind of the triage and they can help a lot of things.

523
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,160
So I think it's understanding where someone's expertise is.

524
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,280
And there can be other things applied to it.

525
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,880
Like as animal activists, we're obviously not biologists and we're not experts in farming

526
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,040
practices and all these kinds of things either.

527
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,280
That there is some benefit to having general knowledge.

528
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:41,360
But when you're trying to educate someone, we still rely on experts.

529
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:47,240
We rely on plant-based dietitians and we rely on medical researchers who don't use animals

530
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:49,960
and the processes that they go through and things like that.

531
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,640
So I think it's, yeah, Neil deGrasse Tyson's an interesting one.

532
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,960
I think he's become so generally popular now.

533
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:04,080
He's been on like the Simpsons and Big Bang Theory and stuff like this as well.

534
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,720
So almost everybody knows who he is.

535
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:10,400
So everybody seeks him out for information, even if it's not relevant to the conversation.

536
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:25,240
Yeah, it's crazy that he became a vehicle for those bad ideas and those attacks that

537
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:29,560
we consider being trolling against vegans.

538
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:30,560
Yeah.

539
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:38,640
And like I say in the book too, it's not just like he, one of his defenses of a previous

540
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,280
I think a Twitter post that he'd made about cows.

541
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,080
He said, I'm just stating a fact.

542
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,520
But I think that's a really narrow view of it as well because there are children and

543
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,120
high school kids who look up to people like that and they'll say, well, if he thinks that,

544
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,240
I think that.

545
00:42:57,240 --> 00:43:03,600
Whether they don't critically think about it or if it reinforces an existing opinion.

546
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:11,080
But I think people like that need to understand the influence that even just stating a fact,

547
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:16,440
which whether it's a fact or not, I think his Twitter post was a cow is a biological

548
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:22,760
machine created by humans to turn grass into protein or something like that, which is not

549
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:28,720
necessarily untrue, but whether it's relevant to anybody's conversation ever.

550
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:35,680
And it didn't seem to appreciate the impact that making a statement like that would have

551
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,080
on intelligent conversation generally.

552
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:49,200
And I think that's where some, going back to the smarter question, some smarter people

553
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:57,200
are not necessarily socially or what I'm trying to say, like they don't have the social skills

554
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,280
to understand how information is being perceived.

555
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,800
They're just putting information out into the world and letting it kind of live a life.

556
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,160
But we also need to understand how it's being perceived.

557
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,860
And I think we can use this as a self-critical thing as well, that when we use certain words

558
00:44:11,860 --> 00:44:18,520
in our outreach, it can have the effect of alienating people or we can soften some of

559
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,520
our language to help get them on board.

560
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,640
And it's the same kind of lesson, I think.

561
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:34,680
And also you mentioned the king of podcasting, Joe Rogan, and he always say, you know, I'm

562
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:35,720
a comic.

563
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:44,920
Why do you go and listen to me talk about and follow my advice concerning COVID or whatever?

564
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,440
I'm not an expert in that.

565
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,440
I'm just a comic.

566
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:54,080
And I feel we should say the same about Neil deGrasse Tyson.

567
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,760
He's not a biologist.

568
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:05,440
He's not a philosopher, an ethical philosopher.

569
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:14,840
It's the responsibility of his audience to think of him as an expert in this field and

570
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:19,080
the rest, the things he says in the margins.

571
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:26,480
Well, let's listen to that with some skepticism.

572
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:27,480
Yeah.

573
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:32,360
And I think we can learn from that as well, that bringing it back to the book, that the

574
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:41,320
way that we talked about children, they look up to us as the source of knowledge and they

575
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,040
take after our actions.

576
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:49,440
And it's like, you know, Christian parents are more likely to have Christian children,

577
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,040
and a rugby league fan is more likely to have a rugby league child and all these kinds of

578
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,680
things.

579
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,020
There's a big influence there that I think we need to understand.

580
00:45:59,020 --> 00:46:03,000
And so even just, and I mentioned a few of them in the book, some offhanded comments

581
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:10,320
and actions can have quite a lot of impact on a child's development when they're mirroring

582
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,320
a lot of things.

583
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,400
My son at the moment, he's almost two and he's mirroring everything, all of our words,

584
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,160
he will repeat back to us and a lot of our actions, he will repeat back to us.

585
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,200
And sometimes it's quite funny and other times we think, Oh, don't know about that.

586
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:36,320
But it's all very impactful when I think one example I used in the book was we're in an

587
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:45,200
electronic store one day and this kid walked up to a table full of electronic tablets and

588
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,040
said, what are these?

589
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:54,760
And the mom said, well, these are so people can watch videos and write and all these kinds

590
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:55,760
of things.

591
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,640
And he said, how did they get here?

592
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:05,660
And she said, you could tell more questions that he asked her, very quickly she lost interest

593
00:47:05,660 --> 00:47:08,420
in answering to the point where she literally just walked away.

594
00:47:08,420 --> 00:47:09,840
She didn't even answer the next question.

595
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,420
She walked away.

596
00:47:11,420 --> 00:47:16,080
And I just stood there, probably very weirdly staring at this child in the middle of a department

597
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:21,600
store thinking, because he had kind of frozen as well.

598
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,680
It was like he was processing what had just happened.

599
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,200
And I thought these are like, these are lessons he's going to learn.

600
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,400
Don't ask too many questions.

601
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,640
Maybe even worse, don't ask mom too many questions.

602
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,840
You know, I don't need to understand how things work properly.

603
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,120
All these kinds of things that will then impact potentially the rest of his life, because

604
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,740
it's very hard to break out of some of these habits that we form.

605
00:47:46,740 --> 00:47:53,200
If you learn not to ask questions, then it's very hard to say to someone, it's okay to

606
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,080
ask questions, even if you're afraid of the answer.

607
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:03,520
So I think as even on a smaller scale, which is probably more relatable to what we do and

608
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,280
what most people do to understand the little things that we do and how they have impacts

609
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:09,280
on children.

610
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:15,320
And yeah, like potentially even that they don't understand where their food comes from,

611
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:20,720
which I think is even whether they're vegan parents or not, I think having the conversation

612
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:26,440
saying we killed a chicken or we paid someone to kill a chicken for your salad is still

613
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:27,440
appropriate.

614
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,280
And maybe there's different ages where that might be appropriate.

615
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:37,640
But I think I would rather be honest in the communication than just forcing people to

616
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,520
be vegan.

617
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:48,720
And I asked this actually of a guest, one of my podcast episodes.

618
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:52,920
And yeah, we said like, if you could snap your fingers today and make everyone vegan,

619
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:53,920
would we?

620
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:55,920
And he said, no, I wouldn't because then people don't know why they're vegan.

621
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,600
They haven't made the journey to get there.

622
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,640
They haven't like we would save a lot of animals lives.

623
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,640
It's true, but more potentially trillions of them.

624
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:08,480
But people would very quickly fall back into other practices, I think.

625
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,000
And like they wouldn't understand why they're doing these things.

626
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,640
It's all I think education is always the always the answer.

627
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,640
Yeah.

628
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,640
Well, you are competing.

629
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,440
Well, at least, you know, first of all, at least your wife is also vegan.

630
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:31,640
So you're, you know, both on the same page about those values.

631
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:38,400
So you're not competing against the cultural views of your wife.

632
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,760
You're both on the same page, but you are competing against other, you know, exterior

633
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:51,280
agents, such as teachers or Disney.

634
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,960
And that I really wanted to get to.

635
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,840
You talk about in the book, the disnification of animals.

636
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:10,000
And that is something that just, you know, keeps coming back to my mind, you know, when

637
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:19,360
I think about animal rights and how animals are perceived, you know, and it's that story

638
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:27,400
about Nemo and how this movie, this big production.

639
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:28,520
And I know it's Pixar.

640
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,840
It's not Disney, but same.

641
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:39,440
But this big production that for, you know, for the first time portrayed a fish as a sentient

642
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:48,320
creature and you know, the whole plot of the movie was about animal abuse and getting out

643
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,520
of a tank.

644
00:50:51,520 --> 00:51:01,640
If you had to design the perfect animal rights movie about fish, you could have made Nemo.

645
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:08,460
Yet when that was presented, when, you know, people watch that, their first instinct was

646
00:51:08,460 --> 00:51:11,840
to go and purchase clownfish.

647
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,000
Right.

648
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:20,520
And you know, it's just, I can't, it's so hard to understand it.

649
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:29,680
And you tackle that problem and you talk about how we portray animals in, how we have portrayed

650
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,000
animals in Disney movies and so on.

651
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,000
Yeah.

652
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,240
I think it's such a good example.

653
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:38,000
I think I didn't, I didn't talk about Nemo in the book.

654
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,320
And even thinking back to it, I think I, from the examples that I remember putting in there

655
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:48,120
were examples that I had when I was growing up that I maybe could have learned from, like

656
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,360
that presented opportunities to learn from, or were some of the reasons why I thought

657
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,040
certain things about certain animals.

658
00:51:53,040 --> 00:52:00,680
So yeah, so one of them is babe, which I guess most people talk about.

659
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:06,840
And I think there's some really good lessons in there, even just about communicating and

660
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:15,680
understanding that animals have, like animals can communicate, they have the ability to

661
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,560
communicate and we just need to listen a bit better to them.

662
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:24,520
And there's a really good quote as to, a really good bit in the film where the first time

663
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,120
babe goes and talks to the sheep.

664
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,880
And from my memory of the film, he's like a little bit nervous and he's like, the farmer

665
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:33,280
wants me to do this.

666
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,600
And the sheep, one of the sheep just respond and says, all you need to do is ask.

667
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,360
And I think that's one of the best moments of the film because it kind of says, like

668
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,080
anybody can get along with each other.

669
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:44,560
We just need to talk a little bit more.

670
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,980
We need to make sure we're communicating on the same level.

671
00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:53,400
And there are some minor issues, I think with babe and that everyone speaks English.

672
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:58,880
So obviously sheep and pigs would have different dialects and things like this.

673
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:06,000
But I mean, there's lots of, lots even just James Cromwell being in the film, that's the

674
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,960
film that made him consider his impact.

675
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:16,720
And a lot of responses to the film were that if people weren't vegetarian, then they reduce

676
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:17,720
their meat intake.

677
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:22,720
And there was a report I read on the instances, I think it was called the babe effect or something

678
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:23,720
like that.

679
00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:26,400
And the effect that a film like that had.

680
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:34,240
But yeah, it's interesting that, I don't know, Finding Nemo is a animated film, but it's

681
00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:39,120
interesting that, and maybe we just didn't really discuss it much more, that after babe,

682
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,580
there wasn't like an increase in demand for pigs as pets, but there was an increase in

683
00:53:43,580 --> 00:53:47,400
demand for clownfish as pets.

684
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:54,560
And I wonder if something else that maybe I neglected to explore was not just the way

685
00:53:54,560 --> 00:54:00,200
that animals are portrayed in the films, but the way that the films are marketed in that

686
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,440
everything from a film can be owned now.

687
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:09,880
So like when there was babe, you couldn't like, at least I remember, you couldn't go

688
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,960
out and buy like a babe action figure.

689
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:16,160
And I feel like if it was released in 2024, you could probably go out and buy a babe action

690
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:17,880
figure.

691
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:23,060
Whereas when Nemo came out, there were a lot of like, we were just used to Disney marketing

692
00:54:23,060 --> 00:54:28,680
things and especially in a time of like huge films like Toy Story, where you could go out

693
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,600
and buy Woody and Frozen, where you could go and buy Elsa.

694
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:39,840
Well, of course, even with a film that does have a lot of animal rights messages in it,

695
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:46,400
like Finding Nemo, if you don't get those messages, or I guess even if you do, you can

696
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,320
still go out and buy a clownfish toy.

697
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:55,360
But also, the next step is that well clownfish are actually quite accessible, that they do

698
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,520
fit into a tank that you can sit on your nightstand.

699
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,160
They shouldn't be in a tank that small, but they can fit into one.

700
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:10,960
So it's very easy to have one at home, a live clownfish, not just a toy.

701
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:17,840
And so yeah, there's a lot to be said about the communication or the marketing, I suppose,

702
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:22,360
between the two children of these films and whether that's the intention.

703
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:27,960
And from the book that I referenced, The Diznification of Animals, she makes a very good point that

704
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:33,120
everything in animation needs to be, is deliberate because you need to draw it, you purposefully

705
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,880
put it there.

706
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,920
So like one example that again, I didn't explore in the book is the film Madagascar, which

707
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,160
I watched with my son the other day.

708
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:48,640
And in it, there's the lemur population on Madagascar has a king.

709
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:57,680
But as far as like I read a book by Lucy Cook about a year ago, and she referenced this

710
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:04,020
film in it and said, but lemurs don't have kings, they have queens, like it's a matriarchy.

711
00:56:04,020 --> 00:56:11,340
So the filmmakers deliberately made the head of the lemurs a king, even though they hopefully

712
00:56:11,340 --> 00:56:13,600
knew very well that it was supposed to be a queen.

713
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,780
Like that was a deliberate choice.

714
00:56:16,780 --> 00:56:21,560
And so like there's lots of conversations, I guess, around whether it's appropriate to

715
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,800
portray matriarchy in films when we're not used to that.

716
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,280
We're used to kings and princesses, not queens necessarily.

717
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:33,720
If they are queens, then they're evil queens.

718
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:41,960
And then there's even some older films where just really subtly there was in Fantasia,

719
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:46,120
there was a scene where like a toy soldier gets lost down a drain.

720
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:51,920
And like all the rats in the drain have like really sharp teeth, sharp claws, red eyes.

721
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,920
And for people who don't see rats, I mean, when was the last time most of us see a rat,

722
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,680
unless you live in like India or New York, you don't really see them that much.

723
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,680
So that's our impression of rats.

724
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:08,040
And maybe some of the damage was repaired with films like Ratatouille and things like

725
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,600
that where they're portrayed as more, you know, a bit cuter and likeable.

726
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:21,320
But yeah, I think the Nemo example is very interesting and a good one of the way that

727
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:28,160
maybe the way that we market or films are marketed to us and the dimension that they

728
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:32,880
take on after the film as well or beyond just sitting and watching a 90 minute film that

729
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,600
you can now incorporate all these things into your life.

730
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:44,040
You can have fish tanks and participate in the enslavement of animals or the capture

731
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:50,040
of animals that you just watched a film about releasing the animals and how much they don't

732
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:51,640
want to be in a tank.

733
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,760
Yeah, it's very, it's very strange.

734
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:58,520
But that's such a great insight and analysis.

735
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:09,760
I never thought about it, about how the clownfish was just a marketing toy and that it relates

736
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,160
to the era in which we live.

737
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,040
And yeah, that's the difference between Finding Nemo and Babe.

738
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,680
Yeah, it's truly fascinating.

739
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:30,560
And you know, likewise, there are some animals that are, I guess, attractive to us and then

740
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:37,780
other that, you know, repel us like the rats or even, you know, the pigs.

741
00:58:37,780 --> 00:58:45,680
And I'm thinking of, you know, the logo of my podcast and also the cover of your book

742
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,000
where we see a pig.

743
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:56,920
And you know, at first that image of a pig when the illustrator presented me with that

744
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:06,440
picture of, you know, logo drafting, I thought, no, I don't want a pig on, you know, representing

745
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,680
my show.

746
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:17,480
And then I had like a pause and I thought, oh my, it's been like nine years.

747
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:26,200
I have been vegan for the last nine years and still this has, you know, power over me.

748
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:36,440
Those strong images, those associations are still ingrained in my mind.

749
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,160
Yeah, yeah.

750
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:48,600
And I have one that I particularly struggle with, but occasionally give into is that I

751
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,880
grew up in central New South Wales, a state here in Australia.

752
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,080
I think it's the second most populous state in Australia.

753
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,600
It may be the first, but literally right in the middle.

754
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,120
And there's a free, not free range, open range zoo there.

755
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,640
So it's still in enclosures, but they're quite big.

756
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:12,280
You know, it's not, you know, the Serengeti, but you know, they do get to wander around

757
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,880
a little bit, but you still do see like the tiger tracks because they're pacing back and

758
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,920
forward and things like this.

759
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,560
But growing up, that's what you did every week.

760
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:26,200
Like we would go to the zoo just about every week and go and see different animals.

761
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:33,320
And that's, I think in hindsight, I probably look at that as where I first appreciated

762
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:39,700
animals, even if it wasn't to the point where I didn't want to eat them, but it's still

763
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:41,240
something that I can't shake.

764
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,880
Like even we'll watch, you know, a documentary on TV and I'll think, oh, we need to take

765
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:46,880
Desmond my son.

766
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,600
We should take him to see a tiger.

767
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,960
Like again, just the first thought is let's go to the zoo because that's what I did for

768
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:58,140
like, you know, with my family, I did that for 15 or 16 years.

769
01:00:58,140 --> 01:01:01,120
And then even after that, I bought a house just down the road from the zoo.

770
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:06,080
So it was nice to go and get a coffee, or nice for me to go and get a coffee and sit

771
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,480
in front of a tiger for an hour and drink a coffee just staring at a tiger.

772
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,920
That was, that's a nice place to drink a coffee for a human.

773
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:18,880
It's not nice for the tiger, but it's something that yeah, is so deeply ingrained into me

774
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,760
that my first thought is let's go to the zoo, even to the point where I don't realize what

775
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,880
I'm doing sometimes until we get into the zoo.

776
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,480
And I'm like, that's right.

777
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:34,080
This is where they keep the animals in cages because it's just, it's just part of my nature.

778
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,920
It's like the education that I had growing up.

779
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:44,280
And it's like, again, it's not like I blame my parents for forcing me to, you know, accept

780
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:46,280
that we need zoos or anything like that.

781
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,360
It's just, it's just what you did.

782
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:55,600
And yeah, I'll still like, I'll go to the zoo and you know, I'll still look at the cage

783
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,920
and I'll say, Oh God, they're a little bit small or, you know, that's not an endangered

784
01:01:58,920 --> 01:01:59,920
species.

785
01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:04,800
Why are we breeding them as if it makes me feel a little bit better about being there.

786
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:05,800
But you're right.

787
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:13,800
It's very, I think if we're honest with ourselves, it's very hard to remove some of those things.

788
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:21,120
And it's much easier to, you know, to, well, I feel like being vegan, whatever the definition

789
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:26,800
of vegan is, at least being plant based, that having a plant based diet is easy.

790
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:32,640
I don't feel like it was hard to get rid of animal products from my diet.

791
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:38,180
But some of these like entrenched things are really quite difficult to shake, especially

792
01:02:38,180 --> 01:02:40,680
when I'm looking at educating my child.

793
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:48,400
And I'm like, with animals like tigers, it may be that by the time he's old enough and

794
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:54,000
has enough money to travel to Asia to see tigers that they don't actually exist anymore.

795
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,960
They might be extinct except in zoos.

796
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:01,040
So if I'm to teach him about a tiger, do I tell him that they don't exist anymore?

797
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:06,640
Or do I take him to the zoo to show him a tiger, but also saying that the tiger shouldn't

798
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:07,640
be here.

799
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:09,040
That was stolen from their home.

800
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,520
And it's very, it's very tricky.

801
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,280
And it's the same with rats.

802
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:21,720
I, rats are one of my favorite, I've kind of, I guess, you know, having an interest in particularly

803
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,240
animals in labs.

804
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:30,600
Rats are kind of one of the ones that I've gravitated towards most.

805
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:37,880
But yeah, still, it's still like this impression of a dirty rat, even though I know that they're

806
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,120
not dirty at all, they're very, very clean.

807
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,520
And they're incredibly adaptable to their environment.

808
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:49,840
And that's why they've survived so well in places like New York, because they just adapt

809
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:50,840
so well.

810
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:54,880
But yeah, there's still like these impressions of, you know, get a little shiver when you

811
01:03:54,880 --> 01:04:02,040
think of a rat or a cockroach or whatever it might be.

812
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:07,560
And a lot of it, I think I mentioned it really briefly in the book, a lot of it is this misinformation

813
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:12,320
that we had when we grew up that we thought, you know, dogs are colorblind, I still often

814
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,840
look at my dog and think, how does he see the world?

815
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:15,840
But he's not colorblind.

816
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:19,040
He just can't see all of the colors in the way that we do.

817
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:25,320
And it's very difficult to break out of some of those, those ways of thinking.

818
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,720
And I think saying the word pet is a good one as well.

819
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,240
Like, how many vegans do we chat to in our conversations?

820
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,080
It will still say my pet at home.

821
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:39,920
But then when we're talking to someone in outreach or in other conversations, we'll

822
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,400
kind of check every single word before we say it out loud and we'll make sure we say

823
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,800
companion animal, whether it makes that much of a difference to the conversation.

824
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:48,800
I'm not sure.

825
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,960
But it's like just these things just flow off our tongues.

826
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,960
And then so much easier than I think we would admit to.

827
01:04:58,960 --> 01:04:59,960
Yes.

828
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:05,280
I absolutely agree with everything you just said.

829
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:12,040
And yet about the zoo part, you know, they are fascinating places.

830
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:18,760
You know, I often hear vegans talking about zoos as open air prisons.

831
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:24,600
But at least with prisons, you have criminals in them.

832
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:32,280
People who, you know, most likely have done things to deserve to be locked in, or at least

833
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,960
they're there not to harm the general population.

834
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,880
But those animals are innocent of any crimes.

835
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:46,840
So I guess, you know, a better analogy would be it's like the Truman show with those zoos.

836
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,600
Yeah, well, yeah, that's true.

837
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:54,720
But yeah, in the criminal system, I mean, it's very different in Australia than it might

838
01:05:54,720 --> 01:06:00,480
be in a lot of other places that, yes, about hopefully about rehabilitation.

839
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:01,920
But yeah, that's right.

840
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,600
Like if you're born into a zoo, it's not like even through these breeding programs.

841
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,520
And like I said, I'm often amazed when they'll have a baby giraffe, for example, but giraffe

842
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,040
are not endangered.

843
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:17,240
It's obviously there to get people into the gates and they won't ever be released back

844
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,200
into the wild because they're just not going to be able to fend for themselves.

845
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:25,560
Like they know when they're getting food and they know when they're being cleaned and all

846
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:26,920
these kinds of things in a zoo.

847
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:32,440
They're very, I guess the word was probably institutionalized maybe.

848
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:38,720
So like sending them out into the, you know, sending them back to where they should have

849
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:39,720
been born.

850
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,400
They're never going to be able to survive there.

851
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:47,800
They have to stay in a zoo once they're in a zoo, which is very hard to think about and

852
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,880
often have this argument or discussion with people.

853
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:54,920
It's like if we were successful in all of our campaigns tomorrow and they say, we're

854
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,160
not using animals for anything anymore.

855
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:03,000
That is a really quite, I mean, it's better than killing them, but also there's going

856
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:08,000
to be billions of animals that are going where?

857
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,960
So if we release all the animals for labs in Australia, we use between eight and 10

858
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:12,960
million a year.

859
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:17,760
Most of those animals have already been bred and most of them are rats and mice and fish.

860
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,960
So where do the animals go if we just end medical research tomorrow?

861
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:23,600
And I think it would be the same with zoos.

862
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:29,080
If we shut or if we stopped zoos, if we outlawed them and made them illegal, then like the

863
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,800
animals are going to have to live out their lives in a zoo anyway.

864
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:38,120
I think maybe a better way of approaching it would be to stop breeding programs in zoos,

865
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:42,840
unless the animals were definitely going to be reintroduced into the wild, certain rhinos

866
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:44,400
and things like that, which can be.

867
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:50,920
But yeah, I think there's still an argument even from an animal rights perspective.

868
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,120
I guess they'd be called sanctuaries then and not zoos maybe.

869
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:55,120
Yes.

870
01:07:55,120 --> 01:08:10,760
But I have no problem with zoos or sanctuaries that understand that and become a tool for

871
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:18,560
advancing animal protection, advocacy.

872
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,040
Yes.

873
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:29,760
Just for that and for creating that contact that children and adults need with animals

874
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,640
to stop thinking of them as legumes.

875
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,440
Yes, exactly.

876
01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:36,440
Yeah.

877
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:40,640
Yeah, we I think we need to find a better way.

878
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:41,640
Yeah.

879
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:42,640
And another good example is dinosaurs.

880
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:48,400
I was going to say we need to find a better way of appreciating animals without necessarily

881
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:53,680
needing to capture them or breed them in captivity.

882
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,920
And dinosaurs is probably a good example that every two or three year old at some point

883
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:02,640
is going to be obsessed with dinosaurs to the point they can name them these horrible

884
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,920
big Latin names that we're all supposed to know.

885
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:08,400
But they've never met a dinosaur.

886
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:14,160
You can't go to a zoo and say dinosaur, but they still have this really huge appreciation

887
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:15,160
of them.

888
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:16,680
They know all about them.

889
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,360
They know where they lived.

890
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,280
I think there's more lessons in that.

891
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:24,560
And it's not something that I've explored too much.

892
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:30,560
More lessons in that and how we teach children to appreciate animals without always having

893
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:31,560
to be in front of one.

894
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:36,280
I think it's an added layer if you can be in front of one.

895
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:41,160
But I think dinosaurs teach us that you don't necessarily need to be right in front of one

896
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:47,920
to for children to appreciate them or to like them or and there may be a bit more with that

897
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:52,680
that there's like the border between fantasy and imagination I think.

898
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:58,160
Whereas dinosaurs don't really fit into fantasy because they were real.

899
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,120
But they still allow children to use their imagination as to what they might have sounded

900
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,480
like and these kinds of things.

901
01:10:05,480 --> 01:10:13,840
Yeah, I think we can learn a lot from potentially exploring that a little bit more.

902
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:20,120
And I am looking forward to the next book.

903
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:23,080
I've thought about it.

904
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:30,240
I thought now that I've written this one theorizing about how we educate children on animals, I

905
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:31,600
need to put it into practice now.

906
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:36,720
How am I actually doing it and how am I dealing with the conversations that I'm having to

907
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:42,000
have and pushing back against people who think I'm neglecting my child because I'm forcing

908
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:47,640
him to be vegan and all these horrible things that I do to my child.

909
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:48,640
Yes.

910
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,240
And that's what I want to know.

911
01:10:51,240 --> 01:11:00,560
How theory and practice clash and what is your experience now of being in that seat

912
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:08,280
of being a dad, being vegan and having to again transmit those values to your child

913
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:18,480
in a society that is not at all sympathetic to the vegan values.

914
01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:21,800
And it's a true challenge.

915
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:31,080
I hope that future generations of vegans will not have to face the social pressure of being

916
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:42,320
judged for their choices from everywhere, from media to your family, to friends, to

917
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:43,320
colleagues.

918
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:44,320
Yeah.

919
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:45,320
Yeah.

920
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:50,400
And I think I'm very fortunate and then we have a lot of either vegan or plant-based

921
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,720
friends or people who understand.

922
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:55,600
It's like you do you, that's fine.

923
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:58,480
We know why you do it.

924
01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:00,000
But yeah, there's definitely some challenges.

925
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,600
It's I guess the same thing that when you tell someone that you're vegan or you don't

926
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:07,240
eat animals, suddenly they become a dietician.

927
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:10,320
It's the same with having a child.

928
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:13,200
Suddenly they're like, but where is he getting his protein from?

929
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,560
And you need to make sure he's getting enough of this and getting enough of that.

930
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:23,360
And I think we're very privileged in Melbourne here in Australia to be able to have access

931
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:31,760
to so much food, real food, not animal food or animal-based food.

932
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,480
And so we do a lot of cooking as well.

933
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:37,440
We don't eat out a whole lot, even though there are quite a few options when we do eat

934
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:40,600
out.

935
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,760
And we've added extra layers to it as well.

936
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:48,200
We haven't really done things like sugar and he's coming up to his second birthday.

937
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:52,280
So he didn't have that much cake and sweet things and stuff like that.

938
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:54,080
So he likes bitter food.

939
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,480
He likes fruit and things like that, but he's fine with broccoli and stuff like that as

940
01:12:57,480 --> 01:12:58,840
well.

941
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:04,680
So whereas other kids we seem to be hearing have this beige food phase where they'll eat

942
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:10,200
nothing but French fries and fried food.

943
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:12,880
He's fine eating rainbow food, we call it.

944
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:18,320
So blueberries and broccoli and bananas.

945
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:24,560
I think also we have the, I guess, as a parent, it's kind of the benefit.

946
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:33,120
And I don't mean that to sound horrible, of having his grandparents live away.

947
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:39,040
So my wife's from London, so her parents live in the UK and I'm from central New South Wales.

948
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:42,160
And my parents live about a thousand kilometres away.

949
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:49,520
So we've been able to kind of freely look after him, I suppose, or raise him.

950
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:55,960
Whereas most parents would have their parents very close by, they'd be coming over quite

951
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:58,200
a bit more often.

952
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:02,960
I think there would be a lot of benefit to that as well.

953
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:05,840
And they do come to visit quite a bit, which is wonderful.

954
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:12,440
But yeah, there's not, I think we don't have the same kind of influences over him as a

955
01:14:12,440 --> 01:14:17,680
lot of other people might struggle with, and having people living a lot closer with them

956
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:27,800
or bringing their existing opinions and lifestyles with them.

957
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:35,680
And we've also, whether we stick to this or not, at the moment, we're pursuing a home

958
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:40,160
schooling, mostly because I want him to have, you know, often when people say they're homeschooling

959
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:42,920
their child, it's because they want to narrow their experiences.

960
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:47,000
It's like we want to raise them as a Christian or we want to raise them as a whatever, but

961
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:48,000
we want to do the opposite.

962
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:49,620
We want to expand his things.

963
01:14:49,620 --> 01:14:56,840
So we want him to have more access to arts and sports and these kinds of things.

964
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:02,580
And taking him to sanctuaries, like farm sanctuaries as part of that.

965
01:15:02,580 --> 01:15:10,560
And so he may not have as many influences from fixed social groups as other children

966
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:11,840
might as well.

967
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:15,120
Like his social groups are going to be quite a bit bigger and quite a bit more diverse

968
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:19,960
because he'll be going to these different places as opposed to the restriction of a

969
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:23,640
school class.

970
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,240
But in saying all of that, he's almost two.

971
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:34,680
So he's still very, very new and I think as far as the challenges so far have mostly just

972
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:42,640
been with some minor instances with medical people who will kind of say, oh, you should

973
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,400
do this or you should do that.

974
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:51,060
And of course, being half responsible vegan parents, we'll just immediately call our plant

975
01:15:51,060 --> 01:15:54,800
based dietitian and say, our GP just told us we should be giving him this.

976
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:55,800
Is this true?

977
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:58,200
And of course, they'll just shake their head and we're like, okay, cool.

978
01:15:58,200 --> 01:15:59,200
Thanks.

979
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:03,360
So I think I would add that to it as well to have some kind of professional support

980
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:09,760
in, particularly with diets, I think to make sure because it is a constant concern when

981
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,140
you're trying to grow someone healthily.

982
01:16:13,140 --> 01:16:16,040
There are some of those things, like we said, they're deeply entrenched.

983
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:18,480
There's always that thought of, is he getting enough protein?

984
01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:20,600
Is he getting enough iron?

985
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:22,240
And it's okay when it's you.

986
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:27,280
You can feel like when you're a bit low in iron or don't have as much energy and things

987
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:28,520
like these, you can correct it.

988
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:33,100
But with a two year old, he can't say, I don't have as much energy today.

989
01:16:33,100 --> 01:16:40,360
So it's a lot more difficult, but I think it can be made a lot more easy by having access

990
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:45,680
to a few kind of professional support, particularly nutritional support.

991
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:46,680
Yeah.

992
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:47,680
Yes.

993
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,880
And I'm absolutely for homeschooling.

994
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:58,400
I'm a big fan of Peter Gray and his book, Free to Learn, which I recommend.

995
01:16:58,400 --> 01:16:59,840
Yeah.

996
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:08,240
I even interviewed him in a past incarnation of this podcast and maybe I should release

997
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:14,880
my interview with him since we're talking about this.

998
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:19,820
But yeah, I mean, let's think about this month.

999
01:17:19,820 --> 01:17:25,640
Let's think about the future generation of vegans and let's build a better world for

1000
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:26,640
them.

1001
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:38,680
Let's make their fight less hard and their veganism less obstructed with so many inconveniences.

1002
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:40,320
Yeah, exactly.

1003
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:46,000
And I think that's thinking about how we're setting up the next generation.

1004
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:48,480
That's kind of what each subsequent one does.

1005
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:53,600
And I think there's some generations that are a little more self-centered in on themselves

1006
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:57,600
or their society or their culture or whatever it might be.

1007
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:03,520
But ultimately, we want it to be set up for the next people, the next generation to, like

1008
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:07,600
you said, have a slightly easier time with the things that we had a hard time with because

1009
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:14,760
they're going to have a hard time, particularly with changing environments and political polarization.

1010
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:18,120
And these things are going to be much harder for them.

1011
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:23,200
So if we can make these things easier now, then they won't have to deal with that quite

1012
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:25,960
as much as we have had to.

1013
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:27,960
Those are great parting words.

1014
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:32,600
Adam, did you want to add something before I stop the recording?

1015
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,680
No, again, thank you so much for having me.

1016
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:35,680
I really love your podcast.

1017
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,920
I've learned quite a lot.

1018
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:43,280
And yeah, I'm just very happy to talk about these things.

1019
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:44,920
Well thank you so much, Adam.

1020
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,800
Thank you so much for your time, for having written this book.

1021
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:54,480
It's another joy of, you can't see it, but here it is.

1022
01:18:54,480 --> 01:19:00,880
It's another joy of, you know, podcasting, being able to meet the writers behind the

1023
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:01,880
books you read.

1024
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:04,240
Yeah, what an amazing treat.

1025
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:07,240
So again, thank you so much, Adam.

1026
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:09,080
Thank you everyone for listening.

1027
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:13,440
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

1028
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:16,160
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1029
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:22,440
Again, thank you so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.