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Welcome to The Vegan Report.

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My name is Ryan and today we are asking the question, how do we keep vegan kids vegan?

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Being an adult vegan is already tough in terms of social pressure.

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It's not a surprise that most vegans will fall back to consuming animal products.

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So imagine how it is for kids who are raised vegans.

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What tools do they have to counter the carnest message they hear repeated in school, among

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friends and from parents?

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How have we equipped them to persevere in holding to the ethical principles inculcated

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by their parents?

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And really, are we even thinking about them and how to support them in their struggle?

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My guest today has some answers.

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Her name is Tracy Glover.

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She is the founder of Sweet Peeps Micro Sanctuary and the writer of the brand new children's

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book Fanny Goes to Washington.

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Among other things, we discussed the antinatalism embraced by many vegans, her psychedelic experience,

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the real life stories that inspired her book and much more.

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You can order the book now.

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Visit the description for more details.

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Tracy, thank you so much for being here.

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A second time on this show.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, thank you so much for having me back.

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So yes, a second time because you are here for our micro sanctuary episode.

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Do you want maybe to share your thoughts on that episode once it was released or if there

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was anything more you want to add to that contribution?

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Yeah, I don't know if there's anything I wanted to add, although I feel like I could always

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add things.

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But I don't know, it was great.

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It was such a great experience also to be connected to other sanctuaries really around

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the world, right?

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Because it was Jessica in Ohio, I think.

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Oh gosh, is it Ohio or Indiana?

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Somewhere in the Midwest.

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Somewhere up north.

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And then Alejandra in Columbia.

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Is that right?

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Good question.

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Wait just a second.

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I'll look it up just to be...

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I'm horrible with names.

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I know.

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As soon as I started to say that I was like, why am I even getting myself into this trouble

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now because I'm terrible with names.

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It's Jemena.

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It's Jessica and Jemena.

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Jessica has been two times on my podcast and we talked off the show and I still don't know

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where she is exactly.

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I couldn't tell you.

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So shame on me.

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I guess I'm bad with names and locations, although I'm pretty sure that Jemena is in

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Columbia.

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So in any case, to be connected to people like literally just in very different parts

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of the world.

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One thing about having a sanctuary is so few people understand really what my life is like

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except for other sanctuary people understand it perfectly.

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So there is kind of just like instant bonds I feel like that comes with other sanctuary

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people wherever we are in the world.

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Which is also true just I think for vegans.

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There's another connection that completely transcends nationalities and everything else

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is our shared ethic.

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So the sanctuary episode, it was just great to get to connect with other sanctuary people,

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other vegans.

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I think it sort of also reminded me I guess how much sanctuary work is part of a larger

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movement to create a vegan world and what an important part it is.

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In part I think sometimes you can just get so absorbed in the daily routine and caring

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for these specific animals and who's sick and who's well.

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I can forget that everything that we're doing here is connected to this larger movement.

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And honestly it's like one of the things too, sorry a little bit of a tangent, but when

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we lose people here I'm just so devastated and heartbroken and you kind of just like

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with any loss in your life.

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You can just get so consumed with the grief of it.

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But then to remember again that it's like the animals who come here even though they

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do pass away at some point, they are some of the luckiest animals on the planet.

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They get to live the life that they all deserve and their lives matter and have an impact

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even outside of this sanctuary because we tell stories and other people are impacted.

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And just sorry to get ahead of us but just a brief sort of segue into the book.

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The children's book is Chickens are Animals Too, Fanny Goes to Washington and Fanny was

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one of my chickens, one of my most special chickens and she passed away just like a week

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before the book was released.

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So knowing that she lives on in the book is some big consolation and still heartbroken

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but I'm so grateful that her story gets out there and she does live on.

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Sorry again, I got totally ahead of us there.

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No, it's okay.

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And when you mentioned your book and how you were going to publish a children's book and

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the idea that because if it was not for this podcast, I don't think I would have read

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your book because I'm a grown adult so I'm not even interested in children's books but

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I loved reading it.

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I truly did love reading it.

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I'm more than just went through it.

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I really read every page and it did feel it had this dimension of it felt like something

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real.

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It felt like it was based on something real.

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Like for instance at one time you described the rescue operation of there's this tornado

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and you went on, well not you but I mean I imagine you go on the site and went on this

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rescue operation and it felt like this really happened.

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So I guess my first question for you is how much of the book is based on real life stories?

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Yeah, so a lot of it.

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I mean for one I would say like when I went back and reread the story, it's so clear to

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me that I absolutely never could have written this story without my experience with the

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chickens.

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Like the chickens pretty much wrote the story.

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I mean I fleshed it out but everything is either based in reality or at least inspired

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by reality.

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The scene with the chickens who come from the factory farm that's hit by a tornado,

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that is almost entirely based in reality.

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So like you said, the character, the Abby character who's kind of like me in the story,

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I didn't rescue, like I didn't go rescue the chickens but there were rescuers and I

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tried also to the Abby character who's kind of me.

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I really though in my mind's eye, like there were two other sanctuary owners who I tried

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to base the character on.

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There's a woman named Anissa Matheny who runs Mother Clucker's Micro Sanctuary which is

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an amazing sanctuary and everybody should go find her on social media and support her.

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And then there's another woman, Abby Hubbard who runs Minnow and Blossom's Place and I

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kind of like combined the two of them in my mind.

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They're just these wonderful, amazing women and so it was a little bit of like an homage

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to them, like a little tribute to them.

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So it was during COVID, I saw a post in one of the chicken groups about a factory farm

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that had been hit by a tornado in Georgia.

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We had had storms in the area and it was a factory farm about six hours from where I

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am.

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And the post that I saw, it was like the woman who posted was somebody who was really responsible

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for connecting me with every other chicken I had ever rescued up until that point.

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And so a factory farm had hit a, sorry, a tornado had hit a factory farm and like destroyed

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the buildings.

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And I feel like the first post I saw, we just knew that the tornado had hit the farm and

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we like assumed that there were survivors but didn't necessarily know.

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And they were looking for people who could actually go and see if there were survivors.

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And it like killed me, but I couldn't leave because I didn't even, I think at the time,

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if I had any help, it was only a very small amount of help, but enough animals here that

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I just be gone, like, you know, six-hour drive each way and then you're on the ground for

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some amount of time.

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And I don't leave the animals alone here, except for, you know, I think maybe at the

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time again, when I didn't have a helper here all the time, it was like, you know, if I

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had to go to the grocery store, I would leave them alone, but I just couldn't leave for

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such an extended period of time.

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And so it was like killing me to know that there were these, you know, potentially these

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animals in need who were pretty close to me and I couldn't go.

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But so I just said, I can't go, I'm so sorry, but if you find, you know, if there are survivors

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and you get them, I can take some.

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And then the conversation went quiet for like two weeks and I just thought that there hadn't

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been any survivors.

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And then about two weeks later, this person contacted me and asked if I could take seven

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injured chickens from the factory farm.

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And I was like, what happened?

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I hadn't heard anything.

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I just thought, you know, that there hadn't been any survivors.

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And they said what had happened was that rescuers went in and they found the owner gone in with

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their bulldozers and they were removing the quote wreckage, which included, you know,

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debris from the buildings, dead animals, but also live animals that they were just scooping

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up and burying.

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And rescuers went in and the corporate owners called the police on them for trespassing.

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And I'm still not sure actually if anybody was arrested or if they were just threatened

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with arrest.

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But they basically had to kind of like go underground.

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But they managed, you know, like going in at night when nobody, you know, when the wrecking

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crews were gone, they managed to pull out something like 200 birds.

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And some of them weren't even injured, but there were a lot that were injured.

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And by the time they rescued them, many of them had been there for like a week without

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food or water.

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It's amazing really that there were any survivors, but I ended up taking in seven.

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And so, yeah, there's so there's some, you know, some of the characters in the book are

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the ones that I rescued.

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And they, you know, I tried to like reflect some of their personalities, but that's definitely

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their, their Oregon story is pretty accurate.

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And there's other like the beginning of the book, Fanny is rescued from a feed and seed

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where she's like she's a chick at feed and seed who sickly and the manager at the feed

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and seed says, you know, well, yeah, she's sick.

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We'll just put her in back and she'll probably die.

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And, and Abby, the human character, right, says like, is outraged as any normal person

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would be.

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And takes her to a vet and gets her the veterinary care that she deserves.

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And in the story, the manager's like, yeah, we don't, we don't get them veterinary care.

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And that I've never heard a chicken from a feed and seed.

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I know a lot of people who have like almost every sanctuary has a chick who comes from,

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you know, a place like Tractor Supply.

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And it's very, like throughout the book, it's, you know, just, I tried to kind of

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weave in like just the truths of the industry and the world we live in.

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And, you know, based either on my own direct experience or on the experience of experiences

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of other sanctuary people who I know.

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So there's like, yeah, so much of the story is based in reality.

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There's like a turning point in the story where it takes on, you know, a whole kind

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of fantasy aspect.

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The, you know, and but it's interesting to just what you said about it so much, you know,

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that you said like, you never would have read the story because it's a children's book,

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but that you really enjoyed it.

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And I'm so I'm so, you know, I'm just so grateful to hear that.

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And honestly, when I wrote it, I didn't know I was writing a children's book.

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It was really just kind of like a fantasy.

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Like my own fantasy, kind of creating this fantasy world where I could create a happy

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ending.

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And then, you know, after I had like the first draft, I kind of was like, oh, I think this

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is a children's book.

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And then and then I was mindful as I was writing it that like, I don't want to include anything

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in here that would be like, you know, upset, like traumatizing.

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So I tried to include references to like, how sad and bleak life is for most chickens

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in reality, without it being so much.

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Yeah, that, you know, children would need to get into therapy or something, you know.

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Well, that's another question I was planning on asking, you know, what did not make the

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final cut?

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But first, I want to go back to the tornado story.

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Yeah.

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This made me think of we're recording this in summer.

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This made me think of heat waves and how that must impact farm animals across America and

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Canada.

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And this is something I don't think about usually, you know, in fact, before reading

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the book, I did not even cross my mind that there are animals suffering from the heat

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of the summer.

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Actually, I was just thinking of, you know, pool parties and drinking cold beverages and

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all of that, which is all wholesome, but it just escapes from our mind, you know, all

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this pain going on in the world, even if it is close to us, you know, I don't live far

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from farm farms, you know, even industrial farms.

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And I think it's important to have books that link you to reality, that, you know, sends

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you to explore and think of the world outside of the library, outside of the book, instead

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of books that just, you know, create more denial and more false ideas.

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And with that segue, I want to talk about other depictions of, you know, animals in

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children's books, because there are other books with, you know, talking chickens or

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talking any number of animals out there.

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And I often think, you know, when I look at them, I think if they could speak, they would

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talk about human cruelty, and they never do.

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So in this sense, this book is original and more accurate.

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But yeah, what do you think of talking animals and this idea of giving a human voice to animals?

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How did you think about it in terms of the creative process?

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And where do you put the limits of that exercise?

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Because at the end, yeah, Fanny, and I love this creative arc of the book, starting more,

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you know, human centric, but then it becomes more and more about animals.

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They become the central voices of the book.

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But at the same time, those are human voices, because animals don't have voices.

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So just walk us through this creative process of yours and how you thought about it.

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Yeah, okay.

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Thank you.

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That's a great, rich question.

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So I honestly like when I'm posting, for example, for the sanctuary and posting about the animals

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from the sanctuary, I almost never sort of like give them a human voice because it feels

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like disingenuous.

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I just want, you know, like I want to represent them as they are without projecting anything

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onto them.

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But I also feel like, you know, like the truth is, right, is like animals, they do have voices,

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but most humans are not listening, don't understand what they're saying, you know, like aren't

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trying to understand and don't understand and dismiss what they are communicating.

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But like they are communicating, right?

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I mean, you know, you go into, if you were to go into any of those, you know, hell holes,

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like slaughterhouses and factory farms, they would all be screaming in pain and misery.

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Even, yeah, and I just think, you know, for the most part, right, people aren't exposed

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to that.

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And we just block out the idea even that they're communicating anything.

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But I feel like, you know, so much of what I wanted to do with this book and so much

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of what I think I am trying to always do in my advocacy generally is so when I'm not taking

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care of the animals at the sanctuary, I'm writing like whether, so this was like my

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first children's book, but I'm always writing nonfiction.

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And I don't know if it's okay, like I'm just a reference another podcast, this other podcast

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that you did on psychedelics and veganism.

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I had a, I did a, I microdosed a few years ago and I had like an epiphany during that

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experience that I was very much here to not to speak for the animals, but like to try

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to translate for them.

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Like it's like, I feel very, they are communicating, but they live in a world where nobody speaks

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their language or very few humans speak their language, right?

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And what I want more than anything is like the world to hear what they're saying.

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And I just feel like I, my hope is that I can in some way just be a translator.

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Like you know, it's their message and I just want to help deliver it.

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I had another moment, not on psychedelics this time, but I had a moment where I was,

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it was like I'm, I was in a meditation in the woods and I just sort of had a flash of

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like kind of, kind of communicating with nature and some kind of conversation.

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I heard my, I heard a voice in my head like I'm one of you, but I'm also one of them.

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Like I'm one of, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm an animal.

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We're all animals.

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Like I'm an animal, but I'm also a human.

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And so it's, you know, we as humans have this like unique capacity to, to speak for them

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to our own species, you know, to, to, to convey what their message is to our own species and

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hopefully our species will, you know, humans are more likely to listen to other humans.

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So, you know, giving, giving the chickens human in this story, it felt like for one,

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I really did want to center the animals.

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I didn't want it to be a story of like human, you know, the human savior, even though in

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the story, right, Abby, who's like the caretaker slash kind of, you know, she's really the

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mom.

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She has a role like, and we as humans, like we have a role to, to, to, to, to, to, to

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do what we can, do everything we can to help the animals.

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But it's not about us.

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It is about them.

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And, and like all of the qualities that I try, you know, when, when they kind of take

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over in the story, like, you know, and they show courage and bravery and like they are

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those things, you know, and intelligence and they, they're just commu right there, communicating

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a, I think like they're communicating our things that if we are pension and we know

283
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them at all and just listening, like it's clear that they're saying these things, like

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they're not saying it in English, you know, they're not using human language, but they're

285
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definitely saying, I, I love being free.

286
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I love being in the, in the sunlight.

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I love dust bathing and, you know, like, and, and I, and I don't want to be in this hell

288
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hole and I love my life and I don't want to be killed young.

289
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I want to be treated with kindness and compassion.

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Like I gave them human language, but I don't, but I, I, I tried very hard, you know, not

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to put words in their mouth that were inauthentic.

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I tried very much to just, you know, use human language to express what they are expressing.

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And so, you know, and again, much of, of I included is based on my experience living

294
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with them in this sanctuary environment and getting to see what they love and getting

295
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to see them thrive and like what makes them happy.

296
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So people we've talked about for like many years, the whole worry about anthropomorphizing

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animals.

298
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And I think that there's like, that that's just nonsense.

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Like, I mean, it's possible to do that, but to like attribute the wish to be free from

300
00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,520
suffering to an animal, like that's not anthropomorphic.

301
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Like that is every sentient being wants to be free from pain and suffering.

302
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Every sentient being wants to be given the opportunity to thrive, to be treated with

303
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kindness and compassion and mercy.

304
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So yeah, I guess I think like, you know, if we're going to give them human voices, I just

305
00:25:53,840 --> 00:26:00,720
think we have to be careful that we're not giving them like human centric thoughts that,

306
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you know, it's just kind of like imagining, I think, you know, somebody, a French speaker

307
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and just try, you know, trying to try our best.

308
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We're going to, if we're a translator, we're, you know, we're trying to communicate what

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a French speaker is saying to an English speakers, like doing our best to be faithful to what

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they're saying.

311
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And in my way, I tried to be faithful to what I feel like the animals are saying and not

312
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just human voices to make them shoots or something.

313
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You know what I mean?

314
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Like I think people do that.

315
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:39,640
But no, I mean, really, it's like, how else do we communicate with humans what they need?

316
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Because there are some of us, you know, vegans, obviously, we like hear something that other

317
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,600
people don't.

318
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We understand something that other people don't.

319
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Like we are able to hear what the animals are saying and non-vegans, either they can't

320
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,000
hear it or they don't want to hear it.

321
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:04,120
And so making it easier for people to understand what they're saying, I think that's, you know,

322
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that I think that was the goal.

323
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And also just, you know, wanting to write a story where they were, where it was the

324
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,920
animals were the main characters moving the action and kind of like in control of their

325
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,920
own destiny.

326
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,520
Well, it is fascinating.

327
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:28,360
The answers that you have offered, and I like to think of it now, I will use the word translate.

328
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,360
Yeah, nice.

329
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:31,880
Yeah, I love that.

330
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,200
I love that way of looking at it.

331
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:41,440
And yeah, if I think of the stories I was told and where, you know, animals were the

332
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:50,480
heroes, you know, from my childhood, I think of the fables of La Fontaine, you know, or

333
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,200
that, you know, Puss in Boots story.

334
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,840
And there the animal is not a scented being.

335
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:10,160
It's more of a symbol of something and a way to express an idea.

336
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:20,840
So it's more a figure of style than really a character with personhood and presence in

337
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the story.

338
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:31,640
So in that, it's very revolutionary in a way, the way you write about animals as being more

339
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than symbols in a story.

340
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And I think it's a reflection of the whole vegan and animal rights movement.

341
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I think that in a hundred years or more, if we're still around and there are historians,

342
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you know, studying the past, they will look at the vegan movement as a whole, you know,

343
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:04,280
social movement and try and the way they will depict that will be, you know, to talk about

344
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:12,280
vegan art and vegan literature and all of that culture that was produced by the vegan

345
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,280
movement.

346
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,000
So do you see yourself as being, you know, a product and your work as being a product

347
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,800
of that movement?

348
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,600
Oh, very much.

349
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:28,840
I mean, I feel like, you know, I wanted to write a story that, well, I mean, again, like

350
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,600
I didn't even set out to write it.

351
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,720
I just, it just kind of came to me.

352
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,640
One day I was actually driving to LSU veterinary hospital, which is about four and a half hours

353
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,920
from here to see an avian specialist with one of the sick roosters.

354
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,980
And I don't know, it just like, you know, the idea just came to me, which doesn't happen

355
00:29:48,980 --> 00:29:49,980
often in my writing.

356
00:29:49,980 --> 00:29:53,840
Normally my writing is like nonfiction and it's more labored.

357
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,920
And this was more like real, just sort of inspiration hit me.

358
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,640
But so I say I wanted to write a story, but I didn't really like set out to write a story.

359
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,080
But I do, you know, at some point it's like, yeah, you want to write a story that's going

360
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,080
to be engaging and entertaining.

361
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:19,240
But I mean, it's advocacy, you know, like the number one sort of goal is advocacy.

362
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:27,920
And very much feels like a product of this movement and the ideology behind the movement.

363
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:35,120
And again, you know, really so informed by life, you know, sanctuary life and getting

364
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,120
to know the animals.

365
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,560
And I think, you know, so much of the goal of sanctuary is to tell the stories of the

366
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,560
animals.

367
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,880
And, you know, we do that in a lot of ways.

368
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:52,320
And obviously, like, this is a fictional story, but it's so much based in reality that it,

369
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,020
you know, it feels like it is telling their story.

370
00:30:56,020 --> 00:31:04,400
It's just, you know, with a little creative license in order to envision, you know, a

371
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:12,240
different path forward and alternate future, like one we could have if we just make some

372
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,840
different choices that seem like so simple and clear.

373
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:29,200
But yeah, I mean, I think that it's definitely, you know, a product of this worldview that,

374
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,920
you know, is part of the animal rights movement and what veganism is all about.

375
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,960
Yeah, yeah.

376
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,680
I mean, it's funny because, yeah, my grandma wrote children's stories.

377
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,880
So I have it kind of like in my genes.

378
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:55,900
But my grandma wasn't writing books about like, liberation, you know, animal liberation.

379
00:31:55,900 --> 00:32:00,760
So I feel like, yeah, I have it in me.

380
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:07,200
I've written for a lot, like ever since I was a kid, writing just as the way I processed

381
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,880
the world and, you know, I always sort of felt like I wanted to communicate through

382
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,880
that form.

383
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:23,560
But yeah, it's definitely informed by the animal rights world and, you know, the vegan

384
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,560
ethic.

385
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:39,360
And yeah, my hope is that it will be some kind of effective advocacy, while also being

386
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,960
like an entertaining story.

387
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,960
Well, then let's talk about the readers.

388
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:59,960
Because I think we have established that there is enough breadth and I guess not complexity,

389
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:10,640
but a sense of, you know, deepness is that word to the story that can interest the parents,

390
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,640
you know, the adults.

391
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,880
And I think that's important for children's books, you know.

392
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:23,720
The parents need to feel a bit, you know, entertained and stimulated from reading those

393
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:24,720
stories.

394
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,720
Yeah.

395
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:33,360
But let's talk about, you know, how this story is, like you said, very much, you know, an

396
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,200
activist story.

397
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:42,080
And you know, Fanny goes to Washington, there is a political dimension to it.

398
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:50,880
And that isn't something we often see in modern day stories, which is surprising because,

399
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,640
you know, I grew up with the old fashioned stories, and they always talked about, you

400
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,880
know, the monarchy and princes.

401
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:05,800
And so the, you know, the political class of that time, you know, was reflected in the

402
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,440
stories of that period of time.

403
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:17,600
Right. Modern stories nowadays, you know, doesn't reference our, you know, political

404
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:18,920
leaders that much.

405
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:27,360
It's like we make them politically secular in a sense, you know, politically free.

406
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:37,560
So did you have hesitations of, you know, talking politics to an activism to children?

407
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,480
Yeah.

408
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:58,640
I definitely didn't want it to be like too political that it would like alienate too

409
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:59,640
many people.

410
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,920
But I feel like, I don't know.

411
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,800
I mean, it's a story about changing the world.

412
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:16,880
And that was like unavoidable, I think, to bring in, you know, it's like when I think

413
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:23,040
about like what needs to change for the animals, it is inherently political.

414
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,920
I mean, it's beyond politics and that it's an ethical issue.

415
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:29,920
Right.

416
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,440
And I feel like a little hesitation to just even like I brought in Senator Cory Booker

417
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,920
is in the book.

418
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:36,920
Right.

419
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,680
And, you know, I'm sure that there are some people who don't on the other side of the

420
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,920
aisle who maybe would be off by that.

421
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,320
But it's an ethical issue.

422
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:55,560
And, you know, he is somebody who stands up for justice and who has taken on the factory

423
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,640
farming world.

424
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,200
And that's like beyond politics.

425
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:07,520
It's just, you know, politics are the way that we implement political philosophy and

426
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,120
moral philosophy.

427
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:20,000
And so it just seems like it was, you know, from the beginning, it was like the flavor

428
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:28,640
of I think like the first sort of kernel of an idea was saw them in Washington.

429
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,400
So from the know it was that.

430
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,560
But again, I did want to find it in a way that's like it's not like partisan.

431
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,360
It's political, not partisan.

432
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,360
Right.

433
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,120
Yeah.

434
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,760
But I think I mean, it's interesting, though, just, you know, what you're saying, older

435
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:52,880
stories and how, you know, how modern stories just don't contain any of that.

436
00:36:52,880 --> 00:37:01,000
And I guess that's the difference between books that are, you know, more philosophical

437
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,640
or more about, you know, trying to trying to make change.

438
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,800
And maybe you don't see that a lot in children's books, books about, you know, social justice.

439
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:19,400
But, you know, part of the book, I mean, it's like it's about animal rights.

440
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,920
But it's also, I think, you know, I mean, it's like in the book, Fanny is this freedom

441
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,880
fighter and she's this activist.

442
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:33,680
And I do hope that, you know, kids would read it and feel inspired that they too could,

443
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:41,680
you know, inspired by Fanny and that they too could be activists and can fight for change

444
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,680
and a better world.

445
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,960
But it is funny, I guess.

446
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:46,960
Yeah.

447
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,880
I mean, I think that's the subject of a lot of children's books, but at the same time,

448
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:55,200
right, I mean, we all grow up like we have heroes and role models when we grow up.

449
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,840
And like, where are they coming from if not children's books?

450
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:04,200
I mean, for me, like growing up, I remember, you know, it's like Wonder Woman, the hero

451
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,760
and there was a TV show about us, an Egyptian goddess.

452
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:16,840
But there were like these strong women, I feel like, who were really my role models

453
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,880
and heroes.

454
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:24,580
And then I think about like the children's books that I grew up with and often they were,

455
00:38:24,580 --> 00:38:26,360
it was just animals who I loved.

456
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,280
There's a lot of, yeah, I mean, a lot of my favorite children's books when I was a kid

457
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,240
that was like the Beatrix Potter book.

458
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:44,800
So not political, or very much though, like, they inspired an awe and wonder for animals

459
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:52,760
and, you know, stories where the animals are, they're full of personality that you really

460
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,040
connect with.

461
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,640
And so, you know, in some way, right, I guess, yeah, it's like those stories, even though

462
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:05,720
they're not like overtly political or about social change like mine is, they are books

463
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:14,960
that instill this idea that animals are, you know, people too, that like animals have personality

464
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:23,000
and personhood and that they're like these wonderful individuals who we want to, you

465
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,880
know, we feel like we want to respect and love.

466
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,880
So yeah, I mean, it is, you know, different ways, I guess.

467
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:40,520
But I feel like sometimes too with veganism is like, I feel like you have to make connections

468
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,960
a little bit more clear for people.

469
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,060
You know, in the world that we live in like that, that willful blindness and cognitive

470
00:39:49,060 --> 00:39:51,520
dissonance is so strong.

471
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:59,380
But if you don't overtly make the connection, it's just too easy for people to miss it.

472
00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:06,040
So I think in part of what maybe in my story, it wasn't enough as to write a story about

473
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:13,420
sweet chickens, like I had to make sure what they need.

474
00:40:13,420 --> 00:40:18,980
You can't just like be like, oh, the chickens are cute, close the book and go get in line

475
00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:19,980
at Chick-fil-A.

476
00:40:19,980 --> 00:40:20,980
No.

477
00:40:20,980 --> 00:40:35,240
And, you know, I don't know if you targeted also meat eaters because I was thinking, you

478
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,040
know, who is going to get this book?

479
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,800
Well, mostly vegans and they want this book.

480
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:50,480
They truly want because maybe one of the greatest fear of vegan parents is to raise children

481
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:59,880
who then will, you know, become meat eaters and just forsake all of those anti-species

482
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,560
and vegan values.

483
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,520
What do you think of that concern?

484
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,600
Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting.

485
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:15,740
And it's funny because I have friends who have like kids and not to have kids in part

486
00:41:15,740 --> 00:41:20,880
because they're like, well, you because you can't control what kind of people your kids

487
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,740
will be and what if they end up being meat eaters?

488
00:41:23,740 --> 00:41:24,740
And you know, I don't know.

489
00:41:24,740 --> 00:41:27,000
I mean, I feel like I'm sure.

490
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,000
Yeah, that every vegan.

491
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,920
So I don't have any human children.

492
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,040
If I ever did, I can't imagine if they turned out not to be vegan.

493
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,040
Right.

494
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:42,040
I mean, I'm sure every vegan parent hopes that they will adopt the same values.

495
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:49,040
And so, yeah, I mean, having children's books, vegan families that reinforce the values,

496
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:57,920
that does seem like, yeah, I'm like, I'm happy to be able to, you know, to offer a book to

497
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,720
those families.

498
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:06,480
And I do think that it's, you know, vegans and vegan families will be the like the first

499
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,720
wave of readers.

500
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:15,680
My hope is that, you know, the vegans who read the book will want to share it with their

501
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:22,200
non vegan friends and family, like all those pre vegans out there.

502
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,200
Like with everything.

503
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:29,840
I mean, yeah, I definitely see that like there's some there's value in having a story for vegan

504
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,520
families.

505
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:40,000
And but I, you know, especially if there are like children at risk.

506
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,000
It's so funny, right?

507
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,880
Like in the non vegan world, it's like at risk of drug use or something.

508
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,920
And the vegan world is like at risk of eating it.

509
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,440
So yeah, for those at risk vegan youth, I'm really happy that there's, you know, another

510
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,760
story for them, especially to like, we focus on chickens.

511
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:08,200
And in my advocacy and the I've started rescuing chickens, advocacy has really shifted to focus

512
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,520
on chickens.

513
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:17,420
In large part as nine out of 10, nine out of the 10 billion land animals that we kill

514
00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:19,420
every year for food are chickens.

515
00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:25,060
So they represent the vast majority of animals of land animals who were killing and abusing

516
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:27,080
so terribly for food.

517
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:32,240
But also just because I think that they're just undervalued across the board, like regardless

518
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:38,240
of the numbers involved, which should make them in so many ways the the ones that we

519
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,400
are advocating for the most.

520
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:47,480
I think even animal lovers, like even, you know, myself included, like before I had chickens

521
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:53,760
and knew them as individuals, I didn't really I didn't love them as much as I loved like

522
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:58,240
cows and pigs and other mammals.

523
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,960
And the more I've gotten to know them, the more I see that they're just these amazing,

524
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,480
special, sweet, individual people with, you know, just as much personality as my dogs

525
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:08,680
and my cats.

526
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:19,560
And they just want so much for the movement to really be full, you know, to focus on chickens,

527
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,520
to give them the same attention that other animals get.

528
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,840
And then again, with like the recognition to that, you know, people eat more chickens

529
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,360
than any other land animals.

530
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,120
I feel like to like, you know, as much as I think people are starting to make the connection

531
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:42,840
between the environment and like eating certain animals like cows and sheep, there are lots

532
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,120
of you know, so many environmentalists like they'll give up beef and they'll start eating

533
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,120
more chickens.

534
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,840
And so I just think like on so many ways the chickens need, I read this great book, Hannah

535
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,800
Ritchie wrote this book, I think it's, it's not the end of the world, maybe it's just

536
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,680
like great environmental book.

537
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:03,000
She's vegan, but she sells out the chickens in the book, like it's all about how, you

538
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:10,720
know, like you can't be an environmentalist and eat and dare, you know, be dairy or lamb

539
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:16,000
basically says like, but she isn't that much better than being vegan, like and she's like,

540
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,840
the whole world isn't going to go vegan.

541
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,480
And I heard her interviewed and I heard her say that she stopped eating chickens because

542
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,400
of the animal suffering, not because of the environmental impact, but she doesn't even

543
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:27,920
make that point in the book.

544
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,460
Like, I just feel like people can read that book and there's so much messaging that comes

545
00:45:31,460 --> 00:45:34,320
out of the environmental movement that leads people to eat more chickens.

546
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,480
So for all of those reasons, you know, I really wanted to center chickens and then going back

547
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,460
to like the vegan families who might be reading the book, like, you know, it's important for

548
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:45,240
vegans, I think even, you know, there's like a little advocacy even for vegans, like the

549
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:49,040
chickens matter, that, you know, we should all love the chickens.

550
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:54,880
But my real hope is that it will, that, you know, vegans will love it enough that they

551
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:02,320
will share it with their non-vegan, you know, their, their pre-vegan friends and families

552
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,560
and that it'll plant some seeds or water seeds.

553
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,240
Those kids who have it in them, who don't want to eat animals, but they live, you know,

554
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:15,960
they're, they're, they're in non-vegan families where their parents are just putting meat

555
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,760
on the table.

556
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,600
My cousin Lola, actually, so she's another, she's in the book.

557
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:28,200
And she, my cousin, she's my second cousin, the daughter of my cousin Doug.

558
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,320
Doug is not vegan.

559
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,200
She's not been raised vegan, but the last I heard she's been saying things like, animals

560
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,200
are my friends.

561
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,640
I don't want to eat them.

562
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:45,440
And you know, I feel like, yeah, I hope that this book will make its way into families

563
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:51,240
like that, where there's like a kid in the family who, who's a vegan at heart.

564
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:54,360
And they're in that period of time where, you know, I think there are so many kids,

565
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,920
right, who they love animals.

566
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,680
They would love to be vegan if their families would support that.

567
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:09,320
And you know, so you had to be, you had to, you know, non-vegan parents would have to

568
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,840
be open-minded enough, right?

569
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,480
And unfortunately there aren't enough open-minded people in the world, but my hope is it will

570
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,480
make its way into those homes.

571
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,160
Yes, 100%.

572
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,720
You know, the book will, will be part of the toolkit of vegan advocacy now.

573
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:35,360
You know, we will have this additional tool, but outside of this, you know, concern of

574
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:48,040
having children that turn out non-vegan, there is, there are many vegans who adhere to the

575
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,320
ideology of anti-natalism.

576
00:47:52,320 --> 00:48:02,680
And I would love to have, you know, your opinion on that because I think from an individual

577
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:11,760
perspective, yes, not having children might contribute to your happiness and to the overall

578
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,760
happiness of the world.

579
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,920
I mean, there is an argument for that.

580
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:27,040
At the same time, I will never advocate for anti-natalism because I've heard too many

581
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:36,480
people, too many parents talk about, you know, the joy of having children and the meaning

582
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,560
of that.

583
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:46,080
And also I am a product of parents, you know, who made the choice of having a child.

584
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:55,400
So how can I even before, you know, this anti-natalism ideology, that would mean, you know, being

585
00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:06,480
against myself or against the very potion or idea that made me, which is alienating

586
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:12,240
and I don't think very healthy for your psyche.

587
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:19,840
And also there's the fact that in general, although there will be plenty of kids from

588
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:25,800
vegan parents, vegan families who will choose not to be vegan, I do believe that just like

589
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:35,920
religion, just like political leanings, the majority of children that came from a vegan

590
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:42,760
family will become vegan themselves and will be part of that, whether they want it or not,

591
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,760
will be part of that vegan advocacy efforts.

592
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:55,000
Because all of a sudden you have at school, you have at what's it called, you know, the

593
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,280
place where the very little ones are kept.

594
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:00,280
Preschool?

595
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:01,280
Preschool?

596
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:02,280
Nursery school?

597
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:03,280
Nursery school.

598
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,400
People have vegans in nursery school, little vegans.

599
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:13,680
Veganism will be represented in those very important places.

600
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,800
And that's essential.

601
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:21,680
That's essential to give to this world, you know, vegans from birth.

602
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:31,760
So what are your thoughts about this anti-natalism ideology that is spreading in the vegan community?

603
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:37,120
Yeah, I mean, it's a big topic.

604
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:38,120
I have lots of thoughts.

605
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,600
Let me see if I can string them together.

606
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:46,760
So I, for one, I don't have human children and I turned 50 this year.

607
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:52,200
So I think that ship has sailed and I'm probably not going to have them.

608
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,920
I didn't, I wasn't though like one of those people who set out never to have them.

609
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,760
It just didn't happen.

610
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,760
And I also wasn't one of those people who knew from like an early age that I really

611
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,040
wanted a family.

612
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,800
It was sort of like something I thought maybe I would do eventually.

613
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,640
And then like I got, I did other things, you know?

614
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:18,120
But I, so, I mean, I think I totally respect, you know, anybody who says I don't want to

615
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:19,400
have children.

616
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:20,400
I think that is 100%.

617
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,440
You know, it's just a very individual choice.

618
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,480
And I think that people who don't want to have kids because they want to do other things,

619
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,840
like great.

620
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:33,840
And I agree.

621
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,160
And, you know, and I think that people who are having kids who aren't vegan, I think

622
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:42,440
like that's a problem, you know, honestly, right?

623
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:48,120
And I think there was a time when I thought that what I was, you know, I thought from

624
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:55,240
what I was reading and that we really, you know, that overpopulation was such a problem

625
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:59,000
or such a risk for the future that it really was like the responsible thing not to have

626
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:05,200
a, not to have children or if we are going to have children to limit ourselves to one.

627
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:10,200
But I feel like the more that I learn about the environment, you know, the environment

628
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:18,080
and environmental issues and population issues, like the truth is if we were all vegan, we

629
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,880
would be fine.

630
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:28,520
And overpopulation is, I just don't think it's a concern that I thought it was like

631
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,400
five or 10 years ago.

632
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,600
I mean, I guess I hear kind of conflicting issues.

633
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,800
I hear a lot of other people saying that we might have an underpopulation.

634
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:46,480
Well, like there's like maybe it's a global issue, but there may be underpopulation in

635
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,160
certain countries and overpopulation in other countries.

636
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,400
And I think the most important thing is that we are raising, you know, that we are living

637
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,520
in a sustainable way and in an ethical way.

638
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:58,520
And I agree with you.

639
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:05,320
I think like, yeah, there's no, my just anecdotally, like friends of mine who are, who are vegan,

640
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:12,200
where both parents are vegan, all they all have vegan kids.

641
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:17,400
Friends of mine where like one parent is vegetarian or vegan and the other parent is not, and

642
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,760
they've like given their kids a choice.

643
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,960
Those kids are not vegan.

644
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:29,040
But from my experience, I'm sure that there's, you know, some research out there, but I don't,

645
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:30,040
I haven't seen it.

646
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:36,000
But I agree with you that it seems like vegan families generally have vegan kids.

647
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:44,400
I often actually think about like, you know, what impact I will have in the world, right?

648
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:48,360
Like if I died tomorrow, have I done any good?

649
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:49,360
Like have I left?

650
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:54,760
Have I done enough that the world is, you know, there's any less suffering in the world?

651
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,160
And I think about this every day.

652
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,720
I'm a little bit obsessed with dying.

653
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:04,600
Like I think about it almost every day.

654
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,480
And probably I do think about it every day.

655
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:15,560
And I think like, you know, if I had had children who were vegan, then there would be some comfort

656
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:23,360
in like, oh, well, when I'm gone, I've left people here who will continue the work.

657
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:29,960
Like my dad died a few years ago and my, I went vegan before my dad did, but he went

658
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,820
vegan soon after I did.

659
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:34,800
And I went vegan because of the values that he instilled in me.

660
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,160
Like he 100% instilled my love of animals.

661
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,000
Like I am, you know, it's like, who would I be if he wasn't my dad?

662
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,000
Well, I wouldn't be.

663
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:50,000
But, you know, without that influence, like I don't know if there's anything.

664
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,360
I sometimes I do believe actually that there is something innate within, there is compassion,

665
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,480
you know, that's innate within all of us.

666
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:04,000
But my dad very, very like directly taught me compassion for animals.

667
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,840
And so I think about, you know, he died younger than he wanted to die.

668
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:15,600
I don't, you know, I don't know if he, he was really pretty haunted, especially.

669
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,360
I mean, I think the whole time actually that he was vegan, he was pretty haunted thinking

670
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,960
about all of the suffering.

671
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:29,040
But I think about like that he, I think he would have to be so pleased that like I carry

672
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:35,920
on his compassion and that everything I'm doing, you know, for as much as I wish I had

673
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:40,880
more impact and I could help more animals, like everything I do every single day is designed

674
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:46,840
to reduce suffering and create a better world for the animals.

675
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,400
And you know, that came from him and it carries on through me.

676
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,440
And then I think about that, like, but I don't have children.

677
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:58,160
So there isn't anybody else who's going to carry that on, like, because I birthed them,

678
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:59,160
you know?

679
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:06,640
So there's like in Buddhism, there's this idea that we, our continuation is our actions.

680
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,040
And I think about that a lot.

681
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:14,040
Like, you know, I just, I hope that I will have done enough that like it will ripple

682
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:18,960
out and, you know, things like this little book, like I hope it will ripple out and have

683
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,000
some impact that will continue on.

684
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,840
But I feel like, you know, yeah, if you have, if you're having children and you're raising

685
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,640
them to be ethical people, then they can continue that.

686
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:38,280
And the world needs, you know, like right now, like the, all the MAGA people aren't

687
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:39,840
worried about overpopulation.

688
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:40,840
Sorry.

689
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,520
It's just to get real political.

690
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,380
But I mean, really, you know, like, I'm sorry, but you know, like Donald Trump doesn't believe

691
00:56:47,380 --> 00:56:48,380
in climate change.

692
00:56:48,380 --> 00:56:50,240
Like his sons are trophy hunters.

693
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:56,640
Like if those are the people who are having children, that's not, that, that can't work

694
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,640
out well.

695
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:04,840
So again, I totally respect anybody who doesn't, who just decides not to have children.

696
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:06,600
Most of my friends, you know, I don't have children.

697
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,200
Most of my friends don't have human children.

698
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:13,000
Most of my friends have sanctuaries or they rescue dogs or cats.

699
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,880
And you know, these are like my people.

700
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:21,400
So I, you know, I, I see it in both sides.

701
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,440
But I don't think like anybody should be like, especially, you know, if you're bringing a

702
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,680
vegan kid into the world, I don't think anybody should be shaming you over it.

703
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,480
Like good for you.

704
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:37,720
And you know, I, I, I, there's a part of me, if I, you know, if I were, if I were 25 right

705
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:46,600
now, I think I might be like, I might be open to having a little vegan baby, you know?

706
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:53,720
So I hope the, yeah, I, I, I, I just hope all the babies that are born are vegans.

707
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:54,720
Yeah.

708
00:57:54,720 --> 00:58:01,880
I mean, that's a great point you're bringing up, you know, the strategic thinking behind

709
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:06,100
it, you know, because yes, the people who are not vegans.

710
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:12,960
And in fact, who believe the opposite of the things vegans believe they're having children.

711
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:19,520
They're not playing with ideas like anti-natalism and being all idealistic and philosophical

712
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:24,040
about those concrete life choices.

713
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:31,800
They're just, you know, it's like the movie, Idiocracy, where you have the smart couple

714
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:36,760
who is waiting to have a child and at the end they're not having any.

715
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,520
And the other, anyway, just watch the movie.

716
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:45,240
The opening is epic, but yeah, they're, they're multiplying.

717
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:51,440
And at the same time, what you have a vegan population that will be in decline in the

718
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:56,960
next decades because, because of anti-natalism, it's a concern.

719
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,160
I guess it's a, it's a real concern.

720
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:13,840
So I want to turn to continue on the lane of activism and ask a question that is at

721
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,880
the heart of not only your book, but also this podcast.

722
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:27,320
And that was our very, you know, positive experience I had of, you know, reading the

723
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:34,400
book and being surprised of how it was in line with this podcast, you know, the mission

724
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:40,440
of this podcast, which is to invite vegans to do more than just being vegan.

725
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,600
And so let me ask you this Tracy directly.

726
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,600
Is it enough to just be vegan?

727
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,560
Actually I've asked this question in a very biased way.

728
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,760
Is it enough to be vegan?

729
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,720
Which is already a lot, you know, you're doing a lot.

730
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:57,720
Is it, is it enough?

731
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:58,720
Right.

732
00:59:58,720 --> 00:59:59,720
Is it enough?

733
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:04,520
I mean, like you said, it's, it's, you're doing a lot by being vegan.

734
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:09,400
Like that is absolutely, you know, it's the first step.

735
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,280
It's the big step.

736
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,920
It's the hardest step is going vegan, right?

737
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,560
It's like accepting everything you have to accept in order to decide that you're going

738
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:20,560
to be vegan.

739
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,760
Like it's the hardest, like psychologically.

740
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:32,200
But yeah, once you're vegan, you know, our impact is really pretty small if we're just

741
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,240
eating vegan food and not talking about it to anybody.

742
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:43,040
Like we, we do really need to grow the community.

743
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,480
Like if we're going to reach that tipping point, right?

744
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:52,760
Like, you know, where, where, where we can really change the world for animals and create

745
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:54,080
a different world.

746
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:58,920
And I mean, we want to, we don't, we're not, you know, we're not just going vegan for our

747
01:00:58,920 --> 01:00:59,920
own health, right?

748
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:00,920
I mean, that's it.

749
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:01,920
It's like, right.

750
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,560
If you're going vegan because you have heart disease and you're trying to reverse your

751
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,840
heart disease or something, then it is just about you.

752
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,360
And then that's what it is.

753
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:13,360
But veganism is really, it's a social movement.

754
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:14,360
It's about changing the world.

755
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,120
It's about creating a better world, a more compassionate world, a more just world, a more

756
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,160
sustainable world.

757
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:24,720
And it's great to like stop contributing to the problem.

758
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:30,440
But I do think if we're going to have the vegan world that we all want, then we do need

759
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:41,200
to do whatever we can to, to spread these ideas and, and this, you know, lifestyle,

760
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,480
philosophy, ethic.

761
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:51,280
You know, we're trying to like create a whole new paradigm and a whole, whole new norm in

762
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:52,280
society.

763
01:01:52,280 --> 01:02:00,880
We won't do that by just like sitting at home, isolated in our, you know, our own homes,

764
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,120
eating vegan food and not talking about it.

765
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:08,200
So, I mean, I think there are so many different ways to do more is the thing, right?

766
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,040
I mean, it's almost hard not to do more.

767
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:15,520
Like, you know, I feel like you would just talking to people is, is doing more.

768
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:19,800
Talking to people in the most, I mean, talking to people, of course, is hard.

769
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,000
That is actually, it's super hard to figure out how to communicate with non-vegans in

770
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,920
a way that is likely to bring them over onto our side and not push them away.

771
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,120
And, you know, it's like tactic, tactics are huge.

772
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:38,120
And you know, they're fortunate, there are some good books out there about the best way

773
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:42,700
to create a vegan world and have these conversations.

774
01:02:42,700 --> 01:02:49,680
And I do think that we, yeah, we have to be thoughtful about it, like how we communicate

775
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:55,720
the message, because we can do more harm than good if we're communicating in, in, you know,

776
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:57,380
the wrong way.

777
01:02:57,380 --> 01:03:02,640
And so I think, like, I kind of, I understand, I think, some hesitation to do more because

778
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,240
it is hard to communicate with non-vegans.

779
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:12,600
I find it a lot easier to communicate, like, well, I mean, that's so much of why I write,

780
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:17,600
is that I feel like I put, you know, I can put something out to like a general audience.

781
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,440
There's nobody, there's nobody like right in front of me who's going to be offended.

782
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,840
You know, I think people can read things like on their own time, they can process things

783
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,840
without feeling like judged by somebody in their face.

784
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,840
But again, like there's so many different ways.

785
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,520
There's, you know, you can, you can do protests.

786
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:40,520
You can write, you can do films, social media, you know, there's like all these people on

787
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:46,760
social media who are doing all kinds of creative things with their content.

788
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:52,120
You can also write like, yeah, just going to work for like any of the vegan organizations,

789
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:58,360
whether it's like doing direct advocacy or like meat alternatives or, you know, in any

790
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,560
profession, you can find a way to like promote the vegan message.

791
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:06,640
Like if you're a journalist and focus on like, you know, animal friendly stories or, I mean,

792
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:12,320
I just think, yeah, it's like across the board, whatever we do, there are ways to bring our

793
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:19,360
veganism and bring these ethics into what we do and further the cause.

794
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:24,160
So yeah, I totally am with you.

795
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:32,680
I think it's really important that we do more than just quietly eat our tofu sandwich at

796
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:33,680
start.

797
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:38,400
Thank you, Tracy.

798
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:46,920
Before we end this conversation, I said I would ask you that what did you, what did

799
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,340
not make the final cut of the book?

800
01:04:50,340 --> 01:04:52,720
What did you left out of the book?

801
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,520
I'm very curious about that.

802
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:58,440
It's one of my favorite questions to ask a writer.

803
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,440
Yeah, interesting.

804
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:05,720
I have to think I have a whole file of cuts.

805
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:12,240
So I think I have to, I should go back and look actually at some point.

806
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:21,080
I'm sure that there were some, I'm sure there was like a little bit more, just like, you

807
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,480
know, as I was going through and rewriting and I don't even know how long it like stayed

808
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:31,480
in the draft, but I'm sure that there was like a little bit more graphic description

809
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:37,720
of like factory farming or even like the tornado survivors injuries.

810
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:41,600
Like I feel, I actually think that I can't remember if something stayed in.

811
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:43,560
Oh, there's a little bit, maybe.

812
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:44,560
Yeah.

813
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:48,080
But I think maybe I took out some of the details that I just thought were like maybe a little

814
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:53,000
too heavy.

815
01:05:53,000 --> 01:06:01,320
I know at some point, well, my editor, so I have a, I have a small publishing company

816
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:08,960
and an editor and he took out some things that were nothing like, actually I had to

817
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:10,640
push back.

818
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:12,520
He wanted to take out the very last line.

819
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:14,120
I don't know if I should give it away.

820
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:18,880
It's not really like a cliffhanger, but the very last line of the book, can I say it?

821
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:19,880
Do you think that gives anything away?

822
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:20,880
I don't think so.

823
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:26,920
The last line of the book is until every cage is empty, until every being is free.

824
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,080
And he wanted to take that out because he thought it was like overkill that like we

825
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:32,680
had already made the point.

826
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,360
And I was like, oh my gosh, no, like that is like, that just tight.

827
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,040
That is what it's all about.

828
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,360
It's like it was in the like, you know, I'm a liberation vow.

829
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:46,560
It also brings in the Bodhisattva vow from the Buddhist tradition, which is about, there's

830
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:47,560
this idea, right?

831
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:51,520
That like, as we walk on the path towards enlightenment, like there's a point where

832
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:55,080
we could like go to Nirvana basically, right?

833
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:03,200
But we, the Bodhisattva path is the path of the one who decides to stay in the realm of

834
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:08,920
birth and death, like in samsara, in this world of suffering that we stay here until

835
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,720
every last being is free.

836
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,280
You know, it's like that thing is like, instead of instead of closing our eyes and walking

837
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:22,200
and putting on our blinders, pretending the suffering isn't there, we lean in, we go in

838
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,240
and we pull them out.

839
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,760
And just like, so that last line is so important to me to keep.

840
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,240
It's not, I'm sorry, that's not a line that's, that's not part of the cut, but it was like

841
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:32,840
something I fought to keep in.

842
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:39,280
But so I think there were some, there's like a few other little details that got taken

843
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:46,320
out like that were a little bit maybe, because I think, I don't even know if I said this,

844
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,400
but when I first wrote it, right, I didn't really know I was writing a children's book.

845
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:51,220
I just like wrote this sort of fantasy story.

846
01:07:51,220 --> 01:07:56,460
So I think that there were some, just some like lines, maybe a little humor that my editor

847
01:07:56,460 --> 01:08:01,240
publisher thought was like inappropriate for kids.

848
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:09,720
Not even like inappropriate, but too, too much for kids, things they wouldn't understand.

849
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,200
But it's, but I'm glad you still think that there's like, you know, that there's enough

850
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,640
in there for parents, because I definitely was like, you know, even when I realized it

851
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:22,200
was a children's story and I was going back and re and revising it, I, you know, I want,

852
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:28,160
I thought there was things in there that maybe would go over a kid's head, but that's okay.

853
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:33,160
And parents would get, and I feel like also just kind of going back to like the, the comics

854
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,600
that I watched as a kid and stuff, there was always, there were always those kind of two

855
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:43,160
layers, two levels so that parents could be amused as well as the children.

856
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:54,120
But yeah, I can't think of anything else specifically that was cut, that was like anything significant.

857
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:59,600
Just again, I think like some, maybe some, some more graphic content and some more, slightly

858
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:06,520
more adult content or just completely like two big, you know, words that kids wouldn't

859
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,800
understand or something.

860
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,720
I can't think of there was anything else like major that I cut.

861
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:22,120
I may just not be remembering now, but it was like, I said though too, it was like,

862
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:28,640
unlike so much of the other writing that I do, I feel like it was, it just came, it just

863
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:34,920
came in a way, you know, it sort of flowed in a way that so much of my writing does not.

864
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:40,200
Like so much of my writing is really laborious and feels kind of hard.

865
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:45,600
And this just was like, I don't know, it just came.

866
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:52,800
So it was, there was less rewriting for sure than most of everything else I write.

867
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:58,760
But if I find anything like super interesting in a cut file, I'll, I'll let you know.

868
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:05,040
Well, I always recommend to publish what did not make the final cut, just out of curiosity

869
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,400
for the nerdy readers like myself.

870
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:09,600
Yeah, that's so interesting.

871
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:15,840
Yeah, makes me think of like, you know, when they say, oh, do you know the real Cinderella

872
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:16,840
story?

873
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:19,720
And then there are all of those gory details.

874
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:24,000
Well, it's a bit like that with Fanny Goes to Washington, I guess.

875
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:25,360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

876
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:28,600
There were a few more gory details.

877
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,080
Yeah.

878
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:34,000
Well, Tracy, thank you so much.

879
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,360
Thank you for having accepted my invitation.

880
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:40,000
Thank you for writing this book and for all the work you're doing.

881
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:43,360
Truly, it was a pleasure talking with you.

882
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,320
I appreciate it so much, Ryan.

883
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,120
Thank you so much for what you're doing.

884
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:48,560
I love the podcast.

885
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:54,520
I'm so grateful and honored to be on to be on it.

886
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,120
And I also super enjoyed the conversation.

887
01:10:57,120 --> 01:10:58,120
So thank you so much.

888
01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:02,080
And I'm just I'm so glad that you like it makes me so happy that you that you really

889
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:04,080
liked liked the book.

890
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:05,960
Thank you everyone for listening.

891
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:10,840
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage

892
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,440
more people to take action again.

893
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:16,200
Thank you so much for caring.

894
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:36,600
And I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.