Welcome to The Vegan Report.
My name is Ryan and today we are asking the question, how do we keep vegan kids vegan?
Being an adult vegan is already tough in terms of social pressure.
It's not a surprise that most vegans will fall back to consuming animal products.
So imagine how it is for kids who are raised vegans.
What tools do they have to counter the carnest message they hear repeated in school, among
friends and from parents?
How have we equipped them to persevere in holding to the ethical principles inculcated
by their parents?
And really, are we even thinking about them and how to support them in their struggle?
My guest today has some answers.
Her name is Tracy Glover.
She is the founder of Sweet Peeps Micro Sanctuary and the writer of the brand new children's
book Fanny Goes to Washington.
Among other things, we discussed the antinatalism embraced by many vegans, her psychedelic experience,
the real life stories that inspired her book and much more.
You can order the book now.
Visit the description for more details.
Tracy, thank you so much for being here.
A second time on this show.
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me back.
So yes, a second time because you are here for our micro sanctuary episode.
Do you want maybe to share your thoughts on that episode once it was released or if there
was anything more you want to add to that contribution?
Yeah, I don't know if there's anything I wanted to add, although I feel like I could always
add things.
But I don't know, it was great.
It was such a great experience also to be connected to other sanctuaries really around
the world, right?
Because it was Jessica in Ohio, I think.
Oh gosh, is it Ohio or Indiana?
Somewhere in the Midwest.
Somewhere up north.
And then Alejandra in Columbia.
Is that right?
Good question.
Wait just a second.
I'll look it up just to be...
I'm horrible with names.
I know.
As soon as I started to say that I was like, why am I even getting myself into this trouble
now because I'm terrible with names.
It's Jemena.
It's Jessica and Jemena.
Jessica has been two times on my podcast and we talked off the show and I still don't know
where she is exactly.
I couldn't tell you.
So shame on me.
I guess I'm bad with names and locations, although I'm pretty sure that Jemena is in
Columbia.
So in any case, to be connected to people like literally just in very different parts
of the world.
One thing about having a sanctuary is so few people understand really what my life is like
except for other sanctuary people understand it perfectly.
So there is kind of just like instant bonds I feel like that comes with other sanctuary
people wherever we are in the world.
Which is also true just I think for vegans.
There's another connection that completely transcends nationalities and everything else
is our shared ethic.
So the sanctuary episode, it was just great to get to connect with other sanctuary people,
other vegans.
I think it sort of also reminded me I guess how much sanctuary work is part of a larger
movement to create a vegan world and what an important part it is.
In part I think sometimes you can just get so absorbed in the daily routine and caring
for these specific animals and who's sick and who's well.
I can forget that everything that we're doing here is connected to this larger movement.
And honestly it's like one of the things too, sorry a little bit of a tangent, but when
we lose people here I'm just so devastated and heartbroken and you kind of just like
with any loss in your life.
You can just get so consumed with the grief of it.
But then to remember again that it's like the animals who come here even though they
do pass away at some point, they are some of the luckiest animals on the planet.
They get to live the life that they all deserve and their lives matter and have an impact
even outside of this sanctuary because we tell stories and other people are impacted.
And just sorry to get ahead of us but just a brief sort of segue into the book.
The children's book is Chickens are Animals Too, Fanny Goes to Washington and Fanny was
one of my chickens, one of my most special chickens and she passed away just like a week
before the book was released.
So knowing that she lives on in the book is some big consolation and still heartbroken
but I'm so grateful that her story gets out there and she does live on.
Sorry again, I got totally ahead of us there.
No, it's okay.
And when you mentioned your book and how you were going to publish a children's book and
the idea that because if it was not for this podcast, I don't think I would have read
your book because I'm a grown adult so I'm not even interested in children's books but
I loved reading it.
I truly did love reading it.
I'm more than just went through it.
I really read every page and it did feel it had this dimension of it felt like something
real.
It felt like it was based on something real.
Like for instance at one time you described the rescue operation of there's this tornado
and you went on, well not you but I mean I imagine you go on the site and went on this
rescue operation and it felt like this really happened.
So I guess my first question for you is how much of the book is based on real life stories?
Yeah, so a lot of it.
I mean for one I would say like when I went back and reread the story, it's so clear to
me that I absolutely never could have written this story without my experience with the
chickens.
Like the chickens pretty much wrote the story.
I mean I fleshed it out but everything is either based in reality or at least inspired
by reality.
The scene with the chickens who come from the factory farm that's hit by a tornado,
that is almost entirely based in reality.
So like you said, the character, the Abby character who's kind of like me in the story,
I didn't rescue, like I didn't go rescue the chickens but there were rescuers and I
tried also to the Abby character who's kind of me.
I really though in my mind's eye, like there were two other sanctuary owners who I tried
to base the character on.
There's a woman named Anissa Matheny who runs Mother Clucker's Micro Sanctuary which is
an amazing sanctuary and everybody should go find her on social media and support her.
And then there's another woman, Abby Hubbard who runs Minnow and Blossom's Place and I
kind of like combined the two of them in my mind.
They're just these wonderful, amazing women and so it was a little bit of like an homage
to them, like a little tribute to them.
So it was during COVID, I saw a post in one of the chicken groups about a factory farm
that had been hit by a tornado in Georgia.
We had had storms in the area and it was a factory farm about six hours from where I
am.
And the post that I saw, it was like the woman who posted was somebody who was really responsible
for connecting me with every other chicken I had ever rescued up until that point.
And so a factory farm had hit a, sorry, a tornado had hit a factory farm and like destroyed
the buildings.
And I feel like the first post I saw, we just knew that the tornado had hit the farm and
we like assumed that there were survivors but didn't necessarily know.
And they were looking for people who could actually go and see if there were survivors.
And it like killed me, but I couldn't leave because I didn't even, I think at the time,
if I had any help, it was only a very small amount of help, but enough animals here that
I just be gone, like, you know, six-hour drive each way and then you're on the ground for
some amount of time.
And I don't leave the animals alone here, except for, you know, I think maybe at the
time again, when I didn't have a helper here all the time, it was like, you know, if I
had to go to the grocery store, I would leave them alone, but I just couldn't leave for
such an extended period of time.
And so it was like killing me to know that there were these, you know, potentially these
animals in need who were pretty close to me and I couldn't go.
But so I just said, I can't go, I'm so sorry, but if you find, you know, if there are survivors
and you get them, I can take some.
And then the conversation went quiet for like two weeks and I just thought that there hadn't
been any survivors.
And then about two weeks later, this person contacted me and asked if I could take seven
injured chickens from the factory farm.
And I was like, what happened?
I hadn't heard anything.
I just thought, you know, that there hadn't been any survivors.
And they said what had happened was that rescuers went in and they found the owner gone in with
their bulldozers and they were removing the quote wreckage, which included, you know,
debris from the buildings, dead animals, but also live animals that they were just scooping
up and burying.
And rescuers went in and the corporate owners called the police on them for trespassing.
And I'm still not sure actually if anybody was arrested or if they were just threatened
with arrest.
But they basically had to kind of like go underground.
But they managed, you know, like going in at night when nobody, you know, when the wrecking
crews were gone, they managed to pull out something like 200 birds.
And some of them weren't even injured, but there were a lot that were injured.
And by the time they rescued them, many of them had been there for like a week without
food or water.
It's amazing really that there were any survivors, but I ended up taking in seven.
And so, yeah, there's so there's some, you know, some of the characters in the book are
the ones that I rescued.
And they, you know, I tried to like reflect some of their personalities, but that's definitely
their, their Oregon story is pretty accurate.
And there's other like the beginning of the book, Fanny is rescued from a feed and seed
where she's like she's a chick at feed and seed who sickly and the manager at the feed
and seed says, you know, well, yeah, she's sick.
We'll just put her in back and she'll probably die.
And, and Abby, the human character, right, says like, is outraged as any normal person
would be.
And takes her to a vet and gets her the veterinary care that she deserves.
And in the story, the manager's like, yeah, we don't, we don't get them veterinary care.
And that I've never heard a chicken from a feed and seed.
I know a lot of people who have like almost every sanctuary has a chick who comes from,
you know, a place like Tractor Supply.
And it's very, like throughout the book, it's, you know, just, I tried to kind of
weave in like just the truths of the industry and the world we live in.
And, you know, based either on my own direct experience or on the experience of experiences
of other sanctuary people who I know.
So there's like, yeah, so much of the story is based in reality.
There's like a turning point in the story where it takes on, you know, a whole kind
of fantasy aspect.
The, you know, and but it's interesting to just what you said about it so much, you know,
that you said like, you never would have read the story because it's a children's book,
but that you really enjoyed it.
And I'm so I'm so, you know, I'm just so grateful to hear that.
And honestly, when I wrote it, I didn't know I was writing a children's book.
It was really just kind of like a fantasy.
Like my own fantasy, kind of creating this fantasy world where I could create a happy
ending.
And then, you know, after I had like the first draft, I kind of was like, oh, I think this
is a children's book.
And then and then I was mindful as I was writing it that like, I don't want to include anything
in here that would be like, you know, upset, like traumatizing.
So I tried to include references to like, how sad and bleak life is for most chickens
in reality, without it being so much.
Yeah, that, you know, children would need to get into therapy or something, you know.
Well, that's another question I was planning on asking, you know, what did not make the
final cut?
But first, I want to go back to the tornado story.
Yeah.
This made me think of we're recording this in summer.
This made me think of heat waves and how that must impact farm animals across America and
Canada.
And this is something I don't think about usually, you know, in fact, before reading
the book, I did not even cross my mind that there are animals suffering from the heat
of the summer.
Actually, I was just thinking of, you know, pool parties and drinking cold beverages and
all of that, which is all wholesome, but it just escapes from our mind, you know, all
this pain going on in the world, even if it is close to us, you know, I don't live far
from farm farms, you know, even industrial farms.
And I think it's important to have books that link you to reality, that, you know, sends
you to explore and think of the world outside of the library, outside of the book, instead
of books that just, you know, create more denial and more false ideas.
And with that segue, I want to talk about other depictions of, you know, animals in
children's books, because there are other books with, you know, talking chickens or
talking any number of animals out there.
And I often think, you know, when I look at them, I think if they could speak, they would
talk about human cruelty, and they never do.
So in this sense, this book is original and more accurate.
But yeah, what do you think of talking animals and this idea of giving a human voice to animals?
How did you think about it in terms of the creative process?
And where do you put the limits of that exercise?
Because at the end, yeah, Fanny, and I love this creative arc of the book, starting more,
you know, human centric, but then it becomes more and more about animals.
They become the central voices of the book.
But at the same time, those are human voices, because animals don't have voices.
So just walk us through this creative process of yours and how you thought about it.
Yeah, okay.
Thank you.
That's a great, rich question.
So I honestly like when I'm posting, for example, for the sanctuary and posting about the animals
from the sanctuary, I almost never sort of like give them a human voice because it feels
like disingenuous.
I just want, you know, like I want to represent them as they are without projecting anything
onto them.
But I also feel like, you know, like the truth is, right, is like animals, they do have voices,
but most humans are not listening, don't understand what they're saying, you know, like aren't
trying to understand and don't understand and dismiss what they are communicating.
But like they are communicating, right?
I mean, you know, you go into, if you were to go into any of those, you know, hell holes,
like slaughterhouses and factory farms, they would all be screaming in pain and misery.
Even, yeah, and I just think, you know, for the most part, right, people aren't exposed
to that.
And we just block out the idea even that they're communicating anything.
But I feel like, you know, so much of what I wanted to do with this book and so much
of what I think I am trying to always do in my advocacy generally is so when I'm not taking
care of the animals at the sanctuary, I'm writing like whether, so this was like my
first children's book, but I'm always writing nonfiction.
And I don't know if it's okay, like I'm just a reference another podcast, this other podcast
that you did on psychedelics and veganism.
I had a, I did a, I microdosed a few years ago and I had like an epiphany during that
experience that I was very much here to not to speak for the animals, but like to try
to translate for them.
Like it's like, I feel very, they are communicating, but they live in a world where nobody speaks
their language or very few humans speak their language, right?
And what I want more than anything is like the world to hear what they're saying.
And I just feel like I, my hope is that I can in some way just be a translator.
Like you know, it's their message and I just want to help deliver it.
I had another moment, not on psychedelics this time, but I had a moment where I was,
it was like I'm, I was in a meditation in the woods and I just sort of had a flash of
like kind of, kind of communicating with nature and some kind of conversation.
I heard my, I heard a voice in my head like I'm one of you, but I'm also one of them.
Like I'm one of, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm an animal.
We're all animals.
Like I'm an animal, but I'm also a human.
And so it's, you know, we as humans have this like unique capacity to, to speak for them
to our own species, you know, to, to, to convey what their message is to our own species and
hopefully our species will, you know, humans are more likely to listen to other humans.
So, you know, giving, giving the chickens human in this story, it felt like for one,
I really did want to center the animals.
I didn't want it to be a story of like human, you know, the human savior, even though in
the story, right, Abby, who's like the caretaker slash kind of, you know, she's really the
mom.
She has a role like, and we as humans, like we have a role to, to, to, to, to, to, to
do what we can, do everything we can to help the animals.
But it's not about us.
It is about them.
And, and like all of the qualities that I try, you know, when, when they kind of take
over in the story, like, you know, and they show courage and bravery and like they are
those things, you know, and intelligence and they, they're just commu right there, communicating
a, I think like they're communicating our things that if we are pension and we know
them at all and just listening, like it's clear that they're saying these things, like
they're not saying it in English, you know, they're not using human language, but they're
definitely saying, I, I love being free.
I love being in the, in the sunlight.
I love dust bathing and, you know, like, and, and I, and I don't want to be in this hell
hole and I love my life and I don't want to be killed young.
I want to be treated with kindness and compassion.
Like I gave them human language, but I don't, but I, I, I tried very hard, you know, not
to put words in their mouth that were inauthentic.
I tried very much to just, you know, use human language to express what they are expressing.
And so, you know, and again, much of, of I included is based on my experience living
with them in this sanctuary environment and getting to see what they love and getting
to see them thrive and like what makes them happy.
So people we've talked about for like many years, the whole worry about anthropomorphizing
animals.
And I think that there's like, that that's just nonsense.
Like, I mean, it's possible to do that, but to like attribute the wish to be free from
suffering to an animal, like that's not anthropomorphic.
Like that is every sentient being wants to be free from pain and suffering.
Every sentient being wants to be given the opportunity to thrive, to be treated with
kindness and compassion and mercy.
So yeah, I guess I think like, you know, if we're going to give them human voices, I just
think we have to be careful that we're not giving them like human centric thoughts that,
you know, it's just kind of like imagining, I think, you know, somebody, a French speaker
and just try, you know, trying to try our best.
We're going to, if we're a translator, we're, you know, we're trying to communicate what
a French speaker is saying to an English speakers, like doing our best to be faithful to what
they're saying.
And in my way, I tried to be faithful to what I feel like the animals are saying and not
just human voices to make them shoots or something.
You know what I mean?
Like I think people do that.
But no, I mean, really, it's like, how else do we communicate with humans what they need?
Because there are some of us, you know, vegans, obviously, we like hear something that other
people don't.
We understand something that other people don't.
Like we are able to hear what the animals are saying and non-vegans, either they can't
hear it or they don't want to hear it.
And so making it easier for people to understand what they're saying, I think that's, you know,
that I think that was the goal.
And also just, you know, wanting to write a story where they were, where it was the
animals were the main characters moving the action and kind of like in control of their
own destiny.
Well, it is fascinating.
The answers that you have offered, and I like to think of it now, I will use the word translate.
Yeah, nice.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that way of looking at it.
And yeah, if I think of the stories I was told and where, you know, animals were the
heroes, you know, from my childhood, I think of the fables of La Fontaine, you know, or
that, you know, Puss in Boots story.
And there the animal is not a scented being.
It's more of a symbol of something and a way to express an idea.
So it's more a figure of style than really a character with personhood and presence in
the story.
So in that, it's very revolutionary in a way, the way you write about animals as being more
than symbols in a story.
And I think it's a reflection of the whole vegan and animal rights movement.
I think that in a hundred years or more, if we're still around and there are historians,
you know, studying the past, they will look at the vegan movement as a whole, you know,
social movement and try and the way they will depict that will be, you know, to talk about
vegan art and vegan literature and all of that culture that was produced by the vegan
movement.
So do you see yourself as being, you know, a product and your work as being a product
of that movement?
Oh, very much.
I mean, I feel like, you know, I wanted to write a story that, well, I mean, again, like
I didn't even set out to write it.
I just, it just kind of came to me.
One day I was actually driving to LSU veterinary hospital, which is about four and a half hours
from here to see an avian specialist with one of the sick roosters.
And I don't know, it just like, you know, the idea just came to me, which doesn't happen
often in my writing.
Normally my writing is like nonfiction and it's more labored.
And this was more like real, just sort of inspiration hit me.
But so I say I wanted to write a story, but I didn't really like set out to write a story.
But I do, you know, at some point it's like, yeah, you want to write a story that's going
to be engaging and entertaining.
But I mean, it's advocacy, you know, like the number one sort of goal is advocacy.
And very much feels like a product of this movement and the ideology behind the movement.
And again, you know, really so informed by life, you know, sanctuary life and getting
to know the animals.
And I think, you know, so much of the goal of sanctuary is to tell the stories of the
animals.
And, you know, we do that in a lot of ways.
And obviously, like, this is a fictional story, but it's so much based in reality that it,
you know, it feels like it is telling their story.
It's just, you know, with a little creative license in order to envision, you know, a
different path forward and alternate future, like one we could have if we just make some
different choices that seem like so simple and clear.
But yeah, I mean, I think that it's definitely, you know, a product of this worldview that,
you know, is part of the animal rights movement and what veganism is all about.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's funny because, yeah, my grandma wrote children's stories.
So I have it kind of like in my genes.
But my grandma wasn't writing books about like, liberation, you know, animal liberation.
So I feel like, yeah, I have it in me.
I've written for a lot, like ever since I was a kid, writing just as the way I processed
the world and, you know, I always sort of felt like I wanted to communicate through
that form.
But yeah, it's definitely informed by the animal rights world and, you know, the vegan
ethic.
And yeah, my hope is that it will be some kind of effective advocacy, while also being
like an entertaining story.
Well, then let's talk about the readers.
Because I think we have established that there is enough breadth and I guess not complexity,
but a sense of, you know, deepness is that word to the story that can interest the parents,
you know, the adults.
And I think that's important for children's books, you know.
The parents need to feel a bit, you know, entertained and stimulated from reading those
stories.
Yeah.
But let's talk about, you know, how this story is, like you said, very much, you know, an
activist story.
And you know, Fanny goes to Washington, there is a political dimension to it.
And that isn't something we often see in modern day stories, which is surprising because,
you know, I grew up with the old fashioned stories, and they always talked about, you
know, the monarchy and princes.
And so the, you know, the political class of that time, you know, was reflected in the
stories of that period of time.
Right. Modern stories nowadays, you know, doesn't reference our, you know, political
leaders that much.
It's like we make them politically secular in a sense, you know, politically free.
So did you have hesitations of, you know, talking politics to an activism to children?
Yeah.
I definitely didn't want it to be like too political that it would like alienate too
many people.
But I feel like, I don't know.
I mean, it's a story about changing the world.
And that was like unavoidable, I think, to bring in, you know, it's like when I think
about like what needs to change for the animals, it is inherently political.
I mean, it's beyond politics and that it's an ethical issue.
Right.
And I feel like a little hesitation to just even like I brought in Senator Cory Booker
is in the book.
Right.
And, you know, I'm sure that there are some people who don't on the other side of the
aisle who maybe would be off by that.
But it's an ethical issue.
And, you know, he is somebody who stands up for justice and who has taken on the factory
farming world.
And that's like beyond politics.
It's just, you know, politics are the way that we implement political philosophy and
moral philosophy.
And so it just seems like it was, you know, from the beginning, it was like the flavor
of I think like the first sort of kernel of an idea was saw them in Washington.
So from the know it was that.
But again, I did want to find it in a way that's like it's not like partisan.
It's political, not partisan.
Right.
Yeah.
But I think I mean, it's interesting, though, just, you know, what you're saying, older
stories and how, you know, how modern stories just don't contain any of that.
And I guess that's the difference between books that are, you know, more philosophical
or more about, you know, trying to trying to make change.
And maybe you don't see that a lot in children's books, books about, you know, social justice.
But, you know, part of the book, I mean, it's like it's about animal rights.
But it's also, I think, you know, I mean, it's like in the book, Fanny is this freedom
fighter and she's this activist.
And I do hope that, you know, kids would read it and feel inspired that they too could,
you know, inspired by Fanny and that they too could be activists and can fight for change
and a better world.
But it is funny, I guess.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's the subject of a lot of children's books, but at the same time,
right, I mean, we all grow up like we have heroes and role models when we grow up.
And like, where are they coming from if not children's books?
I mean, for me, like growing up, I remember, you know, it's like Wonder Woman, the hero
and there was a TV show about us, an Egyptian goddess.
But there were like these strong women, I feel like, who were really my role models
and heroes.
And then I think about like the children's books that I grew up with and often they were,
it was just animals who I loved.
There's a lot of, yeah, I mean, a lot of my favorite children's books when I was a kid
that was like the Beatrix Potter book.
So not political, or very much though, like, they inspired an awe and wonder for animals
and, you know, stories where the animals are, they're full of personality that you really
connect with.
And so, you know, in some way, right, I guess, yeah, it's like those stories, even though
they're not like overtly political or about social change like mine is, they are books
that instill this idea that animals are, you know, people too, that like animals have personality
and personhood and that they're like these wonderful individuals who we want to, you
know, we feel like we want to respect and love.
So yeah, I mean, it is, you know, different ways, I guess.
But I feel like sometimes too with veganism is like, I feel like you have to make connections
a little bit more clear for people.
You know, in the world that we live in like that, that willful blindness and cognitive
dissonance is so strong.
But if you don't overtly make the connection, it's just too easy for people to miss it.
So I think in part of what maybe in my story, it wasn't enough as to write a story about
sweet chickens, like I had to make sure what they need.
You can't just like be like, oh, the chickens are cute, close the book and go get in line
at Chick-fil-A.
No.
And, you know, I don't know if you targeted also meat eaters because I was thinking, you
know, who is going to get this book?
Well, mostly vegans and they want this book.
They truly want because maybe one of the greatest fear of vegan parents is to raise children
who then will, you know, become meat eaters and just forsake all of those anti-species
and vegan values.
What do you think of that concern?
Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting.
And it's funny because I have friends who have like kids and not to have kids in part
because they're like, well, you because you can't control what kind of people your kids
will be and what if they end up being meat eaters?
And you know, I don't know.
I mean, I feel like I'm sure.
Yeah, that every vegan.
So I don't have any human children.
If I ever did, I can't imagine if they turned out not to be vegan.
Right.
I mean, I'm sure every vegan parent hopes that they will adopt the same values.
And so, yeah, I mean, having children's books, vegan families that reinforce the values,
that does seem like, yeah, I'm like, I'm happy to be able to, you know, to offer a book to
those families.
And I do think that it's, you know, vegans and vegan families will be the like the first
wave of readers.
My hope is that, you know, the vegans who read the book will want to share it with their
non vegan friends and family, like all those pre vegans out there.
Like with everything.
I mean, yeah, I definitely see that like there's some there's value in having a story for vegan
families.
And but I, you know, especially if there are like children at risk.
It's so funny, right?
Like in the non vegan world, it's like at risk of drug use or something.
And the vegan world is like at risk of eating it.
So yeah, for those at risk vegan youth, I'm really happy that there's, you know, another
story for them, especially to like, we focus on chickens.
And in my advocacy and the I've started rescuing chickens, advocacy has really shifted to focus
on chickens.
In large part as nine out of 10, nine out of the 10 billion land animals that we kill
every year for food are chickens.
So they represent the vast majority of animals of land animals who were killing and abusing
so terribly for food.
But also just because I think that they're just undervalued across the board, like regardless
of the numbers involved, which should make them in so many ways the the ones that we
are advocating for the most.
I think even animal lovers, like even, you know, myself included, like before I had chickens
and knew them as individuals, I didn't really I didn't love them as much as I loved like
cows and pigs and other mammals.
And the more I've gotten to know them, the more I see that they're just these amazing,
special, sweet, individual people with, you know, just as much personality as my dogs
and my cats.
And they just want so much for the movement to really be full, you know, to focus on chickens,
to give them the same attention that other animals get.
And then again, with like the recognition to that, you know, people eat more chickens
than any other land animals.
I feel like to like, you know, as much as I think people are starting to make the connection
between the environment and like eating certain animals like cows and sheep, there are lots
of you know, so many environmentalists like they'll give up beef and they'll start eating
more chickens.
And so I just think like on so many ways the chickens need, I read this great book, Hannah
Ritchie wrote this book, I think it's, it's not the end of the world, maybe it's just
like great environmental book.
She's vegan, but she sells out the chickens in the book, like it's all about how, you
know, like you can't be an environmentalist and eat and dare, you know, be dairy or lamb
basically says like, but she isn't that much better than being vegan, like and she's like,
the whole world isn't going to go vegan.
And I heard her interviewed and I heard her say that she stopped eating chickens because
of the animal suffering, not because of the environmental impact, but she doesn't even
make that point in the book.
Like, I just feel like people can read that book and there's so much messaging that comes
out of the environmental movement that leads people to eat more chickens.
So for all of those reasons, you know, I really wanted to center chickens and then going back
to like the vegan families who might be reading the book, like, you know, it's important for
vegans, I think even, you know, there's like a little advocacy even for vegans, like the
chickens matter, that, you know, we should all love the chickens.
But my real hope is that it will, that, you know, vegans will love it enough that they
will share it with their non-vegan, you know, their, their pre-vegan friends and families
and that it'll plant some seeds or water seeds.
Those kids who have it in them, who don't want to eat animals, but they live, you know,
they're, they're, they're in non-vegan families where their parents are just putting meat
on the table.
My cousin Lola, actually, so she's another, she's in the book.
And she, my cousin, she's my second cousin, the daughter of my cousin Doug.
Doug is not vegan.
She's not been raised vegan, but the last I heard she's been saying things like, animals
are my friends.
I don't want to eat them.
And you know, I feel like, yeah, I hope that this book will make its way into families
like that, where there's like a kid in the family who, who's a vegan at heart.
And they're in that period of time where, you know, I think there are so many kids,
right, who they love animals.
They would love to be vegan if their families would support that.
And you know, so you had to be, you had to, you know, non-vegan parents would have to
be open-minded enough, right?
And unfortunately there aren't enough open-minded people in the world, but my hope is it will
make its way into those homes.
Yes, 100%.
You know, the book will, will be part of the toolkit of vegan advocacy now.
You know, we will have this additional tool, but outside of this, you know, concern of
having children that turn out non-vegan, there is, there are many vegans who adhere to the
ideology of anti-natalism.
And I would love to have, you know, your opinion on that because I think from an individual
perspective, yes, not having children might contribute to your happiness and to the overall
happiness of the world.
I mean, there is an argument for that.
At the same time, I will never advocate for anti-natalism because I've heard too many
people, too many parents talk about, you know, the joy of having children and the meaning
of that.
And also I am a product of parents, you know, who made the choice of having a child.
So how can I even before, you know, this anti-natalism ideology, that would mean, you know, being
against myself or against the very potion or idea that made me, which is alienating
and I don't think very healthy for your psyche.
And also there's the fact that in general, although there will be plenty of kids from
vegan parents, vegan families who will choose not to be vegan, I do believe that just like
religion, just like political leanings, the majority of children that came from a vegan
family will become vegan themselves and will be part of that, whether they want it or not,
will be part of that vegan advocacy efforts.
Because all of a sudden you have at school, you have at what's it called, you know, the
place where the very little ones are kept.
Preschool?
Nursery school?
Nursery school.
People have vegans in nursery school, little vegans.
Veganism will be represented in those very important places.
And that's essential.
That's essential to give to this world, you know, vegans from birth.
So what are your thoughts about this anti-natalism ideology that is spreading in the vegan community?
Yeah, I mean, it's a big topic.
I have lots of thoughts.
Let me see if I can string them together.
So I, for one, I don't have human children and I turned 50 this year.
So I think that ship has sailed and I'm probably not going to have them.
I didn't, I wasn't though like one of those people who set out never to have them.
It just didn't happen.
And I also wasn't one of those people who knew from like an early age that I really
wanted a family.
It was sort of like something I thought maybe I would do eventually.
And then like I got, I did other things, you know?
But I, so, I mean, I think I totally respect, you know, anybody who says I don't want to
have children.
I think that is 100%.
You know, it's just a very individual choice.
And I think that people who don't want to have kids because they want to do other things,
like great.
And I agree.
And, you know, and I think that people who are having kids who aren't vegan, I think
like that's a problem, you know, honestly, right?
And I think there was a time when I thought that what I was, you know, I thought from
what I was reading and that we really, you know, that overpopulation was such a problem
or such a risk for the future that it really was like the responsible thing not to have
a, not to have children or if we are going to have children to limit ourselves to one.
But I feel like the more that I learn about the environment, you know, the environment
and environmental issues and population issues, like the truth is if we were all vegan, we
would be fine.
And overpopulation is, I just don't think it's a concern that I thought it was like
five or 10 years ago.
I mean, I guess I hear kind of conflicting issues.
I hear a lot of other people saying that we might have an underpopulation.
Well, like there's like maybe it's a global issue, but there may be underpopulation in
certain countries and overpopulation in other countries.
And I think the most important thing is that we are raising, you know, that we are living
in a sustainable way and in an ethical way.
And I agree with you.
I think like, yeah, there's no, my just anecdotally, like friends of mine who are, who are vegan,
where both parents are vegan, all they all have vegan kids.
Friends of mine where like one parent is vegetarian or vegan and the other parent is not, and
they've like given their kids a choice.
Those kids are not vegan.
But from my experience, I'm sure that there's, you know, some research out there, but I don't,
I haven't seen it.
But I agree with you that it seems like vegan families generally have vegan kids.
I often actually think about like, you know, what impact I will have in the world, right?
Like if I died tomorrow, have I done any good?
Like have I left?
Have I done enough that the world is, you know, there's any less suffering in the world?
And I think about this every day.
I'm a little bit obsessed with dying.
Like I think about it almost every day.
And probably I do think about it every day.
And I think like, you know, if I had had children who were vegan, then there would be some comfort
in like, oh, well, when I'm gone, I've left people here who will continue the work.
Like my dad died a few years ago and my, I went vegan before my dad did, but he went
vegan soon after I did.
And I went vegan because of the values that he instilled in me.
Like he 100% instilled my love of animals.
Like I am, you know, it's like, who would I be if he wasn't my dad?
Well, I wouldn't be.
But, you know, without that influence, like I don't know if there's anything.
I sometimes I do believe actually that there is something innate within, there is compassion,
you know, that's innate within all of us.
But my dad very, very like directly taught me compassion for animals.
And so I think about, you know, he died younger than he wanted to die.
I don't, you know, I don't know if he, he was really pretty haunted, especially.
I mean, I think the whole time actually that he was vegan, he was pretty haunted thinking
about all of the suffering.
But I think about like that he, I think he would have to be so pleased that like I carry
on his compassion and that everything I'm doing, you know, for as much as I wish I had
more impact and I could help more animals, like everything I do every single day is designed
to reduce suffering and create a better world for the animals.
And you know, that came from him and it carries on through me.
And then I think about that, like, but I don't have children.
So there isn't anybody else who's going to carry that on, like, because I birthed them,
you know?
So there's like in Buddhism, there's this idea that we, our continuation is our actions.
And I think about that a lot.
Like, you know, I just, I hope that I will have done enough that like it will ripple
out and, you know, things like this little book, like I hope it will ripple out and have
some impact that will continue on.
But I feel like, you know, yeah, if you have, if you're having children and you're raising
them to be ethical people, then they can continue that.
And the world needs, you know, like right now, like the, all the MAGA people aren't
worried about overpopulation.
Sorry.
It's just to get real political.
But I mean, really, you know, like, I'm sorry, but you know, like Donald Trump doesn't believe
in climate change.
Like his sons are trophy hunters.
Like if those are the people who are having children, that's not, that, that can't work
out well.
So again, I totally respect anybody who doesn't, who just decides not to have children.
Most of my friends, you know, I don't have children.
Most of my friends don't have human children.
Most of my friends have sanctuaries or they rescue dogs or cats.
And you know, these are like my people.
So I, you know, I, I see it in both sides.
But I don't think like anybody should be like, especially, you know, if you're bringing a
vegan kid into the world, I don't think anybody should be shaming you over it.
Like good for you.
And you know, I, I, I, there's a part of me, if I, you know, if I were, if I were 25 right
now, I think I might be like, I might be open to having a little vegan baby, you know?
So I hope the, yeah, I, I, I, I just hope all the babies that are born are vegans.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a great point you're bringing up, you know, the strategic thinking behind
it, you know, because yes, the people who are not vegans.
And in fact, who believe the opposite of the things vegans believe they're having children.
They're not playing with ideas like anti-natalism and being all idealistic and philosophical
about those concrete life choices.
They're just, you know, it's like the movie, Idiocracy, where you have the smart couple
who is waiting to have a child and at the end they're not having any.
And the other, anyway, just watch the movie.
The opening is epic, but yeah, they're, they're multiplying.
And at the same time, what you have a vegan population that will be in decline in the
next decades because, because of anti-natalism, it's a concern.
I guess it's a, it's a real concern.
So I want to turn to continue on the lane of activism and ask a question that is at
the heart of not only your book, but also this podcast.
And that was our very, you know, positive experience I had of, you know, reading the
book and being surprised of how it was in line with this podcast, you know, the mission
of this podcast, which is to invite vegans to do more than just being vegan.
And so let me ask you this Tracy directly.
Is it enough to just be vegan?
Actually I've asked this question in a very biased way.
Is it enough to be vegan?
Which is already a lot, you know, you're doing a lot.
Is it, is it enough?
Right.
Is it enough?
I mean, like you said, it's, it's, you're doing a lot by being vegan.
Like that is absolutely, you know, it's the first step.
It's the big step.
It's the hardest step is going vegan, right?
It's like accepting everything you have to accept in order to decide that you're going
to be vegan.
Like it's the hardest, like psychologically.
But yeah, once you're vegan, you know, our impact is really pretty small if we're just
eating vegan food and not talking about it to anybody.
Like we, we do really need to grow the community.
Like if we're going to reach that tipping point, right?
Like, you know, where, where, where we can really change the world for animals and create
a different world.
And I mean, we want to, we don't, we're not, you know, we're not just going vegan for our
own health, right?
I mean, that's it.
It's like, right.
If you're going vegan because you have heart disease and you're trying to reverse your
heart disease or something, then it is just about you.
And then that's what it is.
But veganism is really, it's a social movement.
It's about changing the world.
It's about creating a better world, a more compassionate world, a more just world, a more
sustainable world.
And it's great to like stop contributing to the problem.
But I do think if we're going to have the vegan world that we all want, then we do need
to do whatever we can to, to spread these ideas and, and this, you know, lifestyle,
philosophy, ethic.
You know, we're trying to like create a whole new paradigm and a whole, whole new norm in
society.
We won't do that by just like sitting at home, isolated in our, you know, our own homes,
eating vegan food and not talking about it.
So, I mean, I think there are so many different ways to do more is the thing, right?
I mean, it's almost hard not to do more.
Like, you know, I feel like you would just talking to people is, is doing more.
Talking to people in the most, I mean, talking to people, of course, is hard.
That is actually, it's super hard to figure out how to communicate with non-vegans in
a way that is likely to bring them over onto our side and not push them away.
And, you know, it's like tactic, tactics are huge.
And you know, they're fortunate, there are some good books out there about the best way
to create a vegan world and have these conversations.
And I do think that we, yeah, we have to be thoughtful about it, like how we communicate
the message, because we can do more harm than good if we're communicating in, in, you know,
the wrong way.
And so I think, like, I kind of, I understand, I think, some hesitation to do more because
it is hard to communicate with non-vegans.
I find it a lot easier to communicate, like, well, I mean, that's so much of why I write,
is that I feel like I put, you know, I can put something out to like a general audience.
There's nobody, there's nobody like right in front of me who's going to be offended.
You know, I think people can read things like on their own time, they can process things
without feeling like judged by somebody in their face.
But again, like there's so many different ways.
There's, you know, you can, you can do protests.
You can write, you can do films, social media, you know, there's like all these people on
social media who are doing all kinds of creative things with their content.
You can also write like, yeah, just going to work for like any of the vegan organizations,
whether it's like doing direct advocacy or like meat alternatives or, you know, in any
profession, you can find a way to like promote the vegan message.
Like if you're a journalist and focus on like, you know, animal friendly stories or, I mean,
I just think, yeah, it's like across the board, whatever we do, there are ways to bring our
veganism and bring these ethics into what we do and further the cause.
So yeah, I totally am with you.
I think it's really important that we do more than just quietly eat our tofu sandwich at
start.
Thank you, Tracy.
Before we end this conversation, I said I would ask you that what did you, what did
not make the final cut of the book?
What did you left out of the book?
I'm very curious about that.
It's one of my favorite questions to ask a writer.
Yeah, interesting.
I have to think I have a whole file of cuts.
So I think I have to, I should go back and look actually at some point.
I'm sure that there were some, I'm sure there was like a little bit more, just like, you
know, as I was going through and rewriting and I don't even know how long it like stayed
in the draft, but I'm sure that there was like a little bit more graphic description
of like factory farming or even like the tornado survivors injuries.
Like I feel, I actually think that I can't remember if something stayed in.
Oh, there's a little bit, maybe.
Yeah.
But I think maybe I took out some of the details that I just thought were like maybe a little
too heavy.
I know at some point, well, my editor, so I have a, I have a small publishing company
and an editor and he took out some things that were nothing like, actually I had to
push back.
He wanted to take out the very last line.
I don't know if I should give it away.
It's not really like a cliffhanger, but the very last line of the book, can I say it?
Do you think that gives anything away?
I don't think so.
The last line of the book is until every cage is empty, until every being is free.
And he wanted to take that out because he thought it was like overkill that like we
had already made the point.
And I was like, oh my gosh, no, like that is like, that just tight.
That is what it's all about.
It's like it was in the like, you know, I'm a liberation vow.
It also brings in the Bodhisattva vow from the Buddhist tradition, which is about, there's
this idea, right?
That like, as we walk on the path towards enlightenment, like there's a point where
we could like go to Nirvana basically, right?
But we, the Bodhisattva path is the path of the one who decides to stay in the realm of
birth and death, like in samsara, in this world of suffering that we stay here until
every last being is free.
You know, it's like that thing is like, instead of instead of closing our eyes and walking
and putting on our blinders, pretending the suffering isn't there, we lean in, we go in
and we pull them out.
And just like, so that last line is so important to me to keep.
It's not, I'm sorry, that's not a line that's, that's not part of the cut, but it was like
something I fought to keep in.
But so I think there were some, there's like a few other little details that got taken
out like that were a little bit maybe, because I think, I don't even know if I said this,
but when I first wrote it, right, I didn't really know I was writing a children's book.
I just like wrote this sort of fantasy story.
So I think that there were some, just some like lines, maybe a little humor that my editor
publisher thought was like inappropriate for kids.
Not even like inappropriate, but too, too much for kids, things they wouldn't understand.
But it's, but I'm glad you still think that there's like, you know, that there's enough
in there for parents, because I definitely was like, you know, even when I realized it
was a children's story and I was going back and re and revising it, I, you know, I want,
I thought there was things in there that maybe would go over a kid's head, but that's okay.
And parents would get, and I feel like also just kind of going back to like the, the comics
that I watched as a kid and stuff, there was always, there were always those kind of two
layers, two levels so that parents could be amused as well as the children.
But yeah, I can't think of anything else specifically that was cut, that was like anything significant.
Just again, I think like some, maybe some, some more graphic content and some more, slightly
more adult content or just completely like two big, you know, words that kids wouldn't
understand or something.
I can't think of there was anything else like major that I cut.
I may just not be remembering now, but it was like, I said though too, it was like,
unlike so much of the other writing that I do, I feel like it was, it just came, it just
came in a way, you know, it sort of flowed in a way that so much of my writing does not.
Like so much of my writing is really laborious and feels kind of hard.
And this just was like, I don't know, it just came.
So it was, there was less rewriting for sure than most of everything else I write.
But if I find anything like super interesting in a cut file, I'll, I'll let you know.
Well, I always recommend to publish what did not make the final cut, just out of curiosity
for the nerdy readers like myself.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Yeah, makes me think of like, you know, when they say, oh, do you know the real Cinderella
story?
And then there are all of those gory details.
Well, it's a bit like that with Fanny Goes to Washington, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There were a few more gory details.
Yeah.
Well, Tracy, thank you so much.
Thank you for having accepted my invitation.
Thank you for writing this book and for all the work you're doing.
Truly, it was a pleasure talking with you.
I appreciate it so much, Ryan.
Thank you so much for what you're doing.
I love the podcast.
I'm so grateful and honored to be on to be on it.
And I also super enjoyed the conversation.
So thank you so much.
And I'm just I'm so glad that you like it makes me so happy that you that you really
liked liked the book.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage
more people to take action again.
Thank you so much for caring.
And I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.