Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report. Today,
we are exploring the dark world of animal experimentation. And to guide us through this
journey is Madeline Krasnow. From 2011 to 2013, Madeline cared for over 500 monkeys at the
University of Wisconsin-Madison's Harlow Primate Research Lab, an experience that left her with
PTSD and ignited her passion for change. She recently co-founded Justify, an organization
dedicated to advancing science without human or animal suffering. Madeline's mission is to build
the community she desperately needed when she left the Primate Lab back in 2013, and to push
for a future where science and ethics go hand in hand. Thank you so much Maddie for having accepted
my invitation and welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. So I want to start by congratulating
you on obtaining a nonprofit status. It's wonderful. So congratulations. Yeah, we are very excited.
Big plans ahead for Justify. So let me start with this. Why did you name your nonprofit Justify?
Yeah, that's an excellent question. So, you know, the way that Justify came about was that me and
the two co-founders, who have also both worked in animal research or animal research labs,
to some capacity, had come together and were really kind of acting as this supportive community for
each other, talking about our experiences. And as we did that, we were finding that it was really
healing to be able to talk to someone who not only like understood what it was actually like to be in
the lab, but was very non-judgmental about it. And also, you know, the three of us are all big animal
lovers. We're animal activists. And, you know, it can be a little scary to be talking about this kind
of experience in the animal rights space. There can be a lot of judgment about how did you end up
there? Like, why didn't you just immediately leave? So anyway, finding this community was really
helpful for us. And it was through that that then we started realizing like, why didn't you just
just leave? And like, this community needs to be bigger. Like, there's probably more of us out
there. We know there's more of us out there. And we want to create that. And so that's where like
the idea for Justify came about. And then in terms of, you know, the name, we were tossing things back
and forth for a while. But what we kept coming back to is, you know, how the animal research
is able to keep going, like its history and how strong it is today. And how what really has kind
of kept up the momentum is the justifications behind it. And what happens with those justifications,
how those justifications affect us. So like, you know, what happens when we justify what we're
doing, whether that justification is for the greater good, or whether it's, you know, in my
case, like I was staying in the lab, because I was worried that someone who cared less about the
monkeys would be in charge of their care. And so, you know, that's how I was justifying this. And
then what were the implications of my justification? I mean, the ramifications ended up being that I
was diagnosed with PTSD. And so I think there's a lot of ways to like, look at this and kind of
dissect that word justify, because I really think it's core to the animal research industry. And
yeah, just how it how it continues how it stays, stays strong, stays funded.
Yes, it's a an engaging word. Justify. I like it a lot. And it goes at the heart
of the world of animal experimentation. You mentioned justify for the greater good. I think
that for the general public, the idea of a lipstick company experimenting on rabbits or monkeys is
despicable. I think that we arrived at that point. But there is still this idea that if it's for a
greater good, if it's, you know, to fight a disease or something like that, then we are justified to
torture those animals. What do you say to that? Yeah, I mean, it's yeah, I think it's interesting
because I, I agree that that the whole cosmetics thing is really kind of on its way out. And people
have sort of accepted that and champion that which is great. But I also I think there's also just some
misunderstanding about how little that's actually what's even taking place at this point. People
will say like, you know, I'm, oh, don't worry, I'm cruelty free, like, I only buy cruelty free
products. But I think there's, again, sort of this lack of understanding of how much of the research
taking place has nothing to do with, you know, cosmetics at this point, things like that. So I
think that's a piece of things. And then, you know, this whole greater good discussion, it's, it's
it's just not black and white. And I think that there's been, you know, the message that's put
out there, especially by the industry is that, you know, if would you would you choose this rat over,
you know, this child, or would you choose this monkey over your grandma. And that, you know,
of course, is going to immediately bring up these really strong emotions. You know, humans tend to,
to, to care very deeply and more so towards humans. And so I think it's understandable that
people's reaction is like, grandma, you know, like, or this, this child. But I also think that that's
it's manipulation, because that's not actually how animal experimentation works. It's not like,
you know, here's this rat. And if we just do this one thing to the rat, here's the cure. You know,
it's, there's, there's so much more that takes place, so much more funding, so many more lives
that are, are being used, and often not coming up actually with that cure. It's, it's this, it's kind
of like, rolling the dice. It's like, I mean, in some ways, it's like winning the lottery,
you keep trying. And like, if you keep entering, you might win, but like your chances very slim.
And so I just, I think there needs to be some sort of like, there needs, the public needs to be more
aware of like, what this process actually looks like, how successful animal experimentation
actually is when it comes to these, you know, big, incredible, finds, discoveries, whatever.
Because the messaging is so compelling, of course, but it's also very misleading. And it's just not
that simple. Yeah. I think there are a lot of parallels that could be drawn between this
industry of animal exploitation and the factory farming industry, starting with the fact that
it's hidden. And like you said, it's very obscure. If you ask people, you know, where are they doing
that kind of research? I don't think your average person could, you know, point to a place. So what
do you say about this fact that it's hidden and that there's this lack of knowledge and understanding
of this industry? Yeah. I mean, it's very deliberate. What we are fed, like as the public versus
what is actually taking place, it's meant to be palatable. It's meant to, you know, invoke trust
in, you know, the industry that, you know, what they're saying is true. And if we just keep as
much of it concealed as possible, then how are they going to know? So yeah, it's a deliberate move.
I mean, it reminds me, this is a little bit of a tangent, but are you familiar with Fair Oaks
Farms in Indiana? No. Okay. So this may fascinate you. This is a factory farm that is open to the
public. It is sort of like marketed as Disneyland, but it's a farm and it's a factory farm. I had
learned about it and decided, you know, and I should like premise all of this that like I, or
preface, sorry, premise, preface all of this by saying that, you know, I've worked in animal
protection for like about a decade since I basically left the animal research lab that I
worked in. And I was doing a lot with farm animal sanctuaries and educating about food, our food
system and the treatment of farm animals. And so when I learned about this, as much as it sounds
horrific, I wanted to go because I wanted to see like, what is it they're doing? What does that look
like? And I mean, it's very much meant to be like, well, if we show you exactly what we want you to
see and hear, then we'll help you feel good about what we're doing. And so, you know, I remember,
first of all, the night before I was going to be going, I could barely eat. Like I felt so sick to
my stomach that I was even going to be showing up at this facility where I knew, like, what was
taking place where these animals would go, you know, their story, what what would happen to them.
So anyway, what was interesting about the place and what is coming to mind is like the way that
they display things. So like, for example, with the the pig area, so they had a cow area, and they
had a pig area, like dairy cows, pigs. And with the pigs, you know, there's all these like different
rooms where you've got different age pigs, and you look down and you can see them, you can even see
like there's moms and gestation crates with the babies, or sorry, in ferro in crates with the
babies, you know, eating and you can see actually, moms and gestation crates and like, you know,
lots of babies running around in different rooms. So like, and people are looking down and like
owing and owing because like cute little baby pigs, right. And you know, they're seeing some
of these things. And if you're not familiar with like, what a gestation crate is, and what that's
really like, or what a ferro in crate is, and what that's really like for these individuals,
you're seeing this, and they're kind of just hanging out and it's quiet. Because guess what,
the the you see them, but it's soundproof. So you cannot hear their screams, like even if like pigs
are fighting, and you can see scrapes on some of their backs from them getting in fights, but you
can't hear anything. So like, they've decided that the sound is not worth, you know, experiencing,
which I think is really interesting, because it takes away the chaos of what is being felt by these
pigs, right. And similarly, like there's a little spot where they had like taken two newborn piglets,
and they have them in this little like container. It was like, a group would stand around, they'd be
like, let's name the babies. And it's like this dissociation or what am I trying to say, not
dissociation. Like compartmentalizing. Yeah, of just like, oh my gosh, they're so cute, let's name
them. And then they're going to, you know, go be made into pork, bacon, whatever. And when you ask
the staff questions, they have very deliberate answers, you know, like I had asked, for example,
you know, why, why do the piglets, like, why don't they have tails? And I know the answer to this,
I know they're cutting off the tails, because, you know, especially in crowded situations,
they get really stressed, and they end up biting each other's tails off. And so they just cut them
off right away. But they danced around that and said it was better for them, you know, like,
for their well being or something like that. But they won't actually tell you the truth, which is
that these animals are very stressed out. And, you know, the situation they've been put in is
unnatural, to say the least. So, you know, I think about this. And then there's also like all of this
marketing taking place, like you see a sign and it's like half a half a pig face and half a human
face. And it's like, pigs are so intelligent, they can play video games. And it's like comparing like
humans and pigs and, and telling you like, they're so great. And then in like, you know, the next
display, it's like, and this is why it's important to eat pork, you know what I mean? And you're like,
oh my god, your face. No, I mean, it's literally like mind blowing. And this is just like, you know,
the the pig section, there's a whole dairy section, which, you know, same type of like, this is what
you see, this is what we're going to show you, this is what we're going to say. And all of this is
meant to sort of make you like, be like, be able to ooh and ah this and say like, oh, cute, look at
the pigs, and then go to the restaurant that's on property and eat them. So it's, I mean, it's a
little absurd. And yet I'm on a bus with my mom, and on the bus is a bunch of kids with teachers.
And I heard one of the kids say, it's like Disneyland. And that I think is is very similar
to what you know, we want people to view the animal experimentation industry as like,
we're going to give you something that feels palatable. There are these very exciting things
that could potentially happen that could, you know, save the world save, you know, cure this disease.
But in terms of the follow through in terms of what actually is coming out of it, it's like,
there isn't actually accountability, we're not looking at it by the numbers of, you know,
the animals whose lives what what those lives are about day to day, what they experience in the
actual experiments, where they're where they're coming from, if they're actually taken from the
wild or bred in these labs themselves, you know, we're not looking at the amount of funding that is
funneled into this and, you know, comes out with what we're not looking at the number of researchers
or people who go into this field and then believing because, you know, they're told they can't handle
it. But in reality, it's like they start to have ethical issues with what's taking place. And then
we lose these compassionate scientists who could probably be doing amazing things. Because, you know,
they're all geared, you know, they're all like funneled towards you got to do animal testing in
some way. We're not looking at where this funding could actually change human lives today, like in
this moment, there's so many people who still don't have access to health care, medication, things
that actually exist right now, things that might have even come from animal research, but they still
won't even ever have access to it because they don't have the funds or the means to get that
because the way these systems work. And so it's like, I just think there's so much more we have
to look at when it comes to this industry and why things are currently functioning the way they are,
because if this is really for the greater good, if this is really about helping humans, you know,
the number of people who have just said like, I can't afford therapy. And yet, I know like at my
alma mater, they're inducing extreme anxiety and female monkeys to study anxiety. And it's like,
how about we get people who have anxiety, there's so many of us here I am, you know, talk to them,
give them access to what actually exists because chances are, you know, with the cost of health
care, with the cost of health insurance, like these things are just not accessible. And so it
just feels like we're doing this thing over here and putting all of these resources into it, when
you could take so many of those resources and actually make a huge difference. And so I just
think there's a lot of a lot of things to look at here. And ultimately, messaging, I think has a lot
to do with it in terms of how they're like marketing this industry and, and this idea of
what's going to come from it as opposed to what we could do now with these resources.
And I'm thinking about how there's this mental health crisis in college campuses,
which is this added detail that just drives you crazy. Yes. No pun intended.
But let me just quickly go back to that shocking story of Disneyland Slaughterhouse.
I just want to know, did those kids, well, first of all, were you allowed to take pictures?
Yes. Yeah, I have I have pictures. And you can even like you can go to their Instagram,
you can go to their website and see what it is they want to put out there. Yeah, I took pictures
of like some of those signs. That's why like I remember them because it's now I mean, honestly,
this is like 67 years ago or something that I had gone there. So it's been a while and I'm sure
there's more that's changed. About it. I know they were talking about having a child, but I
know they were talking about having a chicken facility. I don't know if that actually happened.
But this they get they're like south of Chicago. So they get, you know, busloads of kids like field
trips and you know, and even other like types of groups that come for tours. I mean, it is like
this destination. They were building a hotel on property outside there was a dog run. If you
brought your dog, there was a little place for the dog could run. And, you know, because, you know,
we don't eat those ones. So yeah, there I mean, the the disconnect was fascinating and infuriating,
to say the least. In Chicago, the birthplace of the modern factory farm. Yeah, it's the more I'm
thinking about it, the more twisted it seems, because the people who designed that place must
know that people would badly react to, for instance, hearing those cries, those screams.
That's why they built the soundproofing system. So they know they are suffering. Yes. Yeah.
They know they are lying to the public and they're thinking about selling that lie.
And protecting that lie. Now, when I became vegan, a little bit more than nine years ago,
I was taught that, well, I learned that you don't go to those places, you never visit them.
You don't visit zoo or any of those facilities where you exploit animals for entertainment.
Sure. Recently, you know, a podcast dedicated to veterinarians, I had Dr. Crystal Heath, and she said,
no, as a vegan, you should go to those places and you should document the sufferings that you see.
There should be someone witnessing the bad things happening in the zoo and in that place. So
why is it important for us to visit those kinds of places? And how did you find in you the
motivation to go and visit that place? Yeah. Well, first, I want to say that
Dr. Heath is incredible. And I've been working closely with her. She is, her organization,
Our Honor, is our fiscal sponsor as we are pursuing nonprofit status for Justify.
And I've just learned so much from her and really respect everything she does and her viewpoint on
things. You know, I went from like, you know, growing up, like I would visit zoos and then to
a point where I was like, I don't want to visit zoos because, you know, then it looks like I
support zoos. And now I'm sort of back at this point where I'm like, well, it depends on why
you're going. Like, what is your motivation? And even if you're bringing children, like,
are you talking to them about what this means and what like for these animals and what their
experience looks like? Or are you just saying, look at that, a lion, this is so cool, moving on,
look at that, a giraffe, this is so cool, moving on. You know, like, are we having conversations
about, you know, what is actually happening here? Because then I think it's different and it's
important as Dr. Heath said to be aware of, because if no one is documenting what's going on,
then we don't know when those animals are sort of left to, you know, whatever care is happening
to them. So I, yeah, I think, you know, when it came to visiting Fair Oaks, I of course did not
want to, I mean, I felt sick to my stomach the night before. I felt like, you know, and I don't,
I'm one of those people that doesn't like to make comparisons or, you know, is very like careful
about this sort of thing. But, you know, as someone who's Jewish, I couldn't help but feel
like I was visiting some sort of like, you know, like concentration camp, like some, this sort of
like, like the fact that I'm going to this place where I view these animals so differently, you
know, like I literally just come from working, you know, as a tour guide for a farm animal sanctuary
where these animals are rescued from this industry and they're living this beautiful life
alongside, you know, other rescued animals and community and where they're cared for and their
needs are put first. And so it felt very sickening to me to be entering this like, all these
different universe where, you know, all I can think about is not just what they're going through,
but what their end is. And it really just had me thinking. Yeah. About, about that. I think I had
just recently read, I feel like I don't know how to properly pronounce his name, but Eli Weasel
or Ellie Weisel, Weasel yeah. Google doesn't really like Mr. micro?
Sounds familiar.
And whoever's listening to this, don't judge me.
But the book Knight, I had just read that and I had,
it just was all kind of,
I remember discussing this with my mom
and just feeling like, I don't know.
I'm not the type of person that is like,
this is just, I do not,
I personally do not agree with things like,
this is the Holocaust or this is like the Holocaust.
But I think like as a Jewish person who's family,
I did, there's family that perished in the Holocaust.
Like there are pieces of this where I can see patterns,
patterns in how we treat animals
and how like certain groups of humans are treated.
And it just, yeah, like I felt it was like a betrayal.
Like I felt like I was engaging in betrayal.
But then at the same time, I'm like,
well, if I don't see it and share what I see
and what that experience was like,
there's, then there's fewer people like me
who are coming at it from that perspective
as opposed to, look at this, you guys,
I just went to Disneyland.
It's so great.
Like, look at these cute piglets that were in this,
just born, it's like,
those perspectives need to come take place
and so it's not easy to sort of, I don't know,
like make yourself do that.
And I wouldn't say that anyone needs
to make themselves do that.
Like you don't need to put yourself through something
if you feel like it's, you're not ready for it
or it's gonna cause extreme trauma.
Like I don't, I think there's other ways to contribute
to creating a just world.
But if you are able and too,
I think that that can be really important.
And so that's kind of ultimately how I justified that choice.
Yes, the comparison with the Holocaust is fascinating.
Have you heard of the book, An Eternal Treblinka?
Yes, I have, and I have not read it,
but I definitely have heard of it, yes.
I think it was one of those that like,
I know I should read, but it was like,
am I ready to read this?
And so far I have not been, but yeah.
This book left a deep impression on me.
I definitely recommend the book
for those who are listening.
It's an excellent book.
It's a classic of animal rights, so yeah.
Okay, so Maddie, were you one of those people
who believed the lie before being,
starting working for that lab at your college?
Were you part of those people who were not aware at all
of the cruelty of the animal experimentation industry?
Yeah, I felt very unaware.
And I think it's so interesting,
because even recently, the social media world is fascinating
because it gives people a platform.
It gives people a platform, even if they stay anonymous,
to just say some pretty awful things.
And a lot of what I see are things like,
how could you possibly not know?
And one of the things that I think is really important
is like Instagram, I think was created
my sophomore year of college.
That was like when it first started.
And I joined, I ended up becoming an animal caretaker
at the lab the spring of my sophomore year of college.
There wasn't, and I wasn't a huge social media person,
and I didn't really read the news.
So like, there's, I think people sort of forget that,
and I still think that there's people today
who go into labs and are not aware truly
of what the day-to-day is like,
of what this is really like to see animals like this,
of the trauma that can develop over time.
But even so, especially for me back then,
it was like, if you're not reading books on it,
it was very easy to not really know,
and to just know the sound bites or whatever,
which are, it's for the greater good.
Like we've had all these amazing discoveries.
It's so important.
And in my mind, I had decided,
I had always looked up to Jane Goodall.
I really wanted to work in primate conservation.
I just thought primates were fascinating.
Yeah, I saw myself doing that.
And so with two primate labs on campus,
I was like, well, I could get some experience,
and this would be like a great letter of recommendation
for then like moving forward.
And that was really how I viewed it.
I did not, oh my God, I did not have any idea
that I would come out of that lab
experiencing being diagnosed with PTSD
and experiencing repetitive nightmares,
being back in the lab, trying to take photos,
but the photos won't be taken
because I hate that I never took photos.
So I'm like punishing myself and my dreams.
It's, yeah, I think that again,
I think activists kind of forget that they live in a bubble
and that a lot of people really don't know,
even if it's like animal research.
So you're like, you know, putting, I don't know,
like doing an injection into an animal,
like that can seem very chill,
like, you know, cause like animals get shots at the vet.
So what's the difference?
And one of the things that I really like to talk about,
especially from the perspective of a caretaker
is what it's like to see these animals day to day
living in barren cages with barely any stimulation,
some of them living alone.
I mean, it's kind of crazy making
and the way we justify this existence for them.
I think that that's not talked about enough.
Sometimes we're so focused on the research
that like we forget that there's this whole being
that has a life and what that life is like,
not just in the actual research study.
You know, I completely relate
because I remember being a kid
and wanting to work for a pet store.
And I thought, you know, I love animals.
So this is the best job for me.
I will be caring for dogs and all sorts of animals
all day long.
This would be wonderful.
Of course.
So what was the process of getting selected
to become the caretaker?
How do they let you in and employ you?
How do they choose their employees basically?
Yeah, I mean, obviously this was, so I left back in 2013,
like I was there 2011 to 2013 and I graduated in 2013.
So it is definitely possible that things have changed
that the process I imagine has got,
has definitely evolved with social media
because like there wouldn't have been anything
for them to look up at the time about me.
And I wasn't an animal rights activist.
So it's, you know, the point there is moot
but like, I just think it's interesting nowadays
that I'm sure that they're doing deep dives
to make sure whoever they're allowing in
doesn't have a secret agenda.
But yeah, in my case, I, you know,
I saw the application for a student caretaker role.
And that's like kind of what I was waiting for.
I remember like for weeks, like I was like told
that that's where like it would be and that they would,
you know, be up on the job site for the university.
And I, when that finally went up, I applied,
I was emphasizing my background in caretaking
because I had been babysitting for human children
since I was 10 years old.
Yeah, just babysitting, nannying on and off.
I really loved kids.
I was actually majoring in child development
and I had added zoology as a double major.
Of course, I had also done like pet care gigs growing up.
So like loved animals was a natural caretaker.
And I know that like when I got the interview
and then actually when I was hired,
my boss, the director of animal care had told me
that I really reminded her of one of their caretakers
who ended up training me.
And that's like why I was hired.
Like, I mean, the caretaker background and just who I was
and how I seemed like a really hard worker
and very, you know, just sort of like dedicated
to whatever I was doing, which was true.
I mean, I was very passionate.
I was very excited.
I mean, I'm sure they could tell I wanted this job.
Before the first, before the interview,
I paced outside on the phone with my mom for an hour.
Like, and she was just like, it's gonna be fine.
It's gonna be fine.
Like, I mean, I thought that if I didn't get this,
like somehow my future with Jane Goodall
would never happen, you know?
Like that's where I was in my brain.
I don't remember, I get asked this a lot.
So I'm just gonna answer it.
I don't remember if I signed an NDA.
I don't remember what sort of documents I signed.
I remember being told you're not allowed to take pictures.
I mean, when I started, I had like a,
I didn't even have an iPhone.
I think I had like a flip phone or something like that.
So again, the time, like digitally,
things have changed since then,
which I'm sure adds a whole other layer to this work.
But yeah, that's, and you know, so I was hired.
I, and then immediately, you know, started training
and started going, oh, this is not quite
what I thought it would be.
Meanwhile, you know, people on campus would be like,
it's so cool that you play with monkeys all day.
And I was like, yeah, that's not what I do, but.
You never took pictures of, you know, inside the place,
but I'm sure they were filming everything,
you know, the experiments.
And I know that there are plenty of animal rights,
nonprofits like Animal Partisan,
who sued those labs in order to get that footage
and publish that footage.
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's possible.
Yeah, I know, I know that that took place again
with OHSU who was mentioned and a VOL study
where they were deleting footage
that they weren't supposed to be deleting.
So I don't know how much that's like happened with Madison.
I do know that there was someone was undercover there
after my time there and that undercover kind
of investigation came to light.
Around the time I moved to the Bay Area,
so that was like 2019.
And I remember seeing the footage and I actually,
I was, that was one of the times that I was triggered
into sort of one of my, I'm never really sure
how to describe it.
I guess it's kind of a panic attack,
but from my PTSD, like watching it and stuff
and all of a sudden being like, oh God, oh God, oh God,
like I'm here again and having a lot of trouble
trying to sort of tell myself you're safe,
you're not there.
And cause it was just, and it was interesting too.
I mean, side note, but I just remember of course,
what the university was saying, which is,
things were taken out of context and this is not,
this was just one case or this was just one monkey
or blah, blah, blah.
And for someone who has been in these labs
and see like, I don't know how any of that could be taken
out of context.
These are their lives.
Like there were times where I would walk into rooms
and even as the caretaker,
baby monkeys would cower like holding each other
in the corner of their cages because they don't necessarily,
they can't necessarily tell us apart.
They don't know who the researcher is versus me.
And it's not like I didn't have to do things
that were scary, like if a monkey needed a shot
because diarrhea was so common, they like all had diarrhea
because they're stressed.
And so we're like constantly treating them
and this is stressful.
And it's just this cycle of what happens
when you keep animals like this in such a natural,
frightening environments.
When did you start realizing that there is something
incredibly wrong with this place?
I mean, I think there's like different sort of,
there's like flashes of different memories.
And yeah, I always like to include the fact that
unfortunately to protect myself
and I kind of learned sort of this later on
that this is very natural with trauma,
but I suppressed a lot of my memories.
So, for someone who was there for two years,
about 10 to 12 hours a week, I don't have,
there's not a lot there because of how upsetting it was,
but there's different things that sort of kind of were
raising alarm bells, I would say,
if that's the right phrase.
One of which was on one of the first days.
And again, this wasn't the sort of like, get me out of here,
but this was an immediate kind of realization that
I was uncomfortable.
And what happened was is that I was brought into,
there's only one room in this whole facility
where there was like groups living together.
And it was like, there would be like one big breeder male
and then like some younger or some like females
and maybe some younger males.
And it was like this kind of smaller breeding colony.
But they're basically in like a giant cage.
Like it's not like what I described at OHSU,
like with this outdoor thing,
it was just like a larger giant cage.
Sometimes there'd be like feces piling up on the floor
because the drain is full and it's like dark,
the lighting's not great.
I mean, it's still, again, just this giant cage.
There were like, I think there were eight cages
if I'm remembering properly, but don't quote me on it.
And that was the first room with primates
that I was brought into,
which again, I think is very deliberate.
It's like, oh, look, it's kind of like a family.
And I was being taught by my boss
how to give them the treats that they're allowed to have,
which are peanuts.
We would roll, like we had these giant bins on wheels,
like basically garbage bins that were just full with peanuts
and you could give them a peanut.
And we're garbed up.
So we're in like, we've got like two layers of gloves,
like latex and vinyl.
We've got, we're in scrubs, we've got jackets,
we've got a face shield, we've got a mask.
We, it's actually so, when the pandemic hit
and people were masking again,
I had this like such a weird reaction to it,
especially when I first put on the mask,
because there's a certain smell.
And it, yeah, it was very strange
because it was the first time I'd really worn masks again.
And it was triggering.
It didn't keep me from wearing masks,
but it was like this sort of like, oh God,
suddenly like, I feel like I'm garbing up
to go into the primate lab.
Anyway, side note.
But in this room, you know,
she was showing me how to give the peanuts.
And the thing is though, especially with primates,
primates are very social animals.
They have like their own kind of hierarchy
within their family groups or groups.
And so what I was noticing is like, no, oh my God,
like the peanuts, they were so excited.
It was like the best thing that had happened to them.
The fact that we were bringing these peanuts in,
which in and of itself felt really depressing
because it's like, oh, this is what you live for.
You know, and then the fact that like,
because of this like dominance hierarchy,
some of them, it was really hard to get them peanuts
because the more dominant ones would come
and take all of the peanuts.
And then I feel bad because I'm like, oh my God,
I can't get you a peanut.
And how am I gonna get you a peanut?
And so I'm sitting there like the power, you know,
the power difference of like me basically giving them
peanuts and how like I get to leave this facility
and they don't.
The fact that like this thing that they're so excited about,
I'm struggling to even make it fair in my brain
to like get each one of them, you know, the treat.
I mean, this was like, this would have been like
the first day that I was working and I just was like,
you know?
Like, and so, you know, that happened and you know,
more training takes place.
I mean, another, I guess another thing where like stuff
really sort of hit was when I was caring for the first
like rejected newborn, the one, like the first one
that I cared for on my own.
So like after like, like I wasn't being trained.
It was like, I came in after hours.
So because these newborns, sometimes I say things
and I realize it's not like obvious to people,
but basically what happens is these monkeys,
this was a breeding facility.
So Harlow primate lab where I worked
was also a breeding facility where they would ship monkeys
all over the country to other facilities.
And so, you know, monkeys, female monkeys
would be put in with males.
We'd be watching their ovulation cycles, you know,
recording menses and stuff.
And then they would be put in with some
of these breeder males who lived alone,
but would just have females coming and going basically.
And, you know, oftentimes these monkeys,
like the females wouldn't necessarily know these males
and this can be really scary.
It could lead to fights.
It could lead to injuries.
I remember hearing, I mean, yeah, these like,
when those fights would take place and you'd come running
because you'd hear the screams and see what, you know,
what was the damage.
You know, in nature, these animals are,
they have very large social groups
where they're learning from each other
and helping each other raise their babies.
And this is very unnatural.
So like all of a sudden you've got a young monkey
who's never had a baby before, they have a baby
and sometimes they don't know what to do with it.
And so they just, well, the way that we know
they've rejected the babies if we walk in
and the baby's on the floor,
like they're not holding the baby.
And sometimes we're able to get the baby
before something happens, but sometimes we walk in
and it's too late and the baby's died.
And it's not, you know, usually anything malicious
from the mother.
It's just that, you know, it's the situation they're in.
It's the environment they're in.
And so with these rejected newborns,
the idea was that we would care for them.
We would syringe feed them.
And then we would eventually cross foster them with a mom
who typically had had a baby,
but whose baby had been removed from them,
which would usually happen at six to 12 months of age.
Their babies would be taken.
And so usually one of those moms at that point
was so desperate to have her baby back
that they would accept this baby to take care of.
And so anyway, that brings us to St. Patrick's Day.
I, you know, holidays were a day when the labs
were very quiet and like, but like,
if there was a rejected newborn who needed,
you know, multiple feedings.
So I was coming in and taking care of this baby.
And, you know, especially with like no one around,
it just felt like I was very much in my head
and looking down at these like big eyes.
I mean, they're so little and they're so perfect.
I mean, these adorable baby rhesus monkeys,
the way he like wrapped his hands or sorry, yeah,
his arms around my, like the top part of my hand,
like my fingers,
and then his legs were wrapped around my wrist.
And I would just like use the syringe
with the other hand to feed him.
And I just wanted to sit there and like comfort him
and cuddle him and, you know, take care of him.
And, you know, I wanted to give him a name
because all of them just have name,
like numbers, letters and numbers, AB 42 or whatever, AX 38.
That was how they were referred to
in a facility where there's over 500 of them.
And so I had given him the name Patrick
because I'm not creative.
And, you know, I'm sitting there thinking about Patrick
and I'm thinking about the fact that like, you know,
it's so nice to be able to take care of him.
And, you know, even though he was rejected.
And then there's this other part of me is like,
would he be better off dead?
What's gonna happen to him?
Like, what happens after this?
Like I take care of him.
He's cross fostered.
Then he's stolen from this mother who, you know,
shows him this love.
And then, you know, I don't know what's gonna,
I don't know what his future holds.
And I, that was a turning point.
And that would have been very early on
in my hiring as well.
And years later, you know, after I had left the lab,
you know, he kind of,
and when I sort of was starting to come to this conclusion
of like, I need to take care of this part of me
and figure out how I'm gonna deal with this,
it felt really meaningful to get a tattoo
that was for Patrick.
And so a lot of people have probably seen
that like on my bicep,
I have a tattoo that says for Patrick
and it's kind of this like remembrance,
this like sort of, yeah, reminder
that everything I'm doing is for him
and for the rest of these individuals that, you know,
oftentimes go unnamed and unknown and, you know,
just not remembered.
I like the way that Joanne McArthur had put it,
like the ghosts in our machine.
That's beautiful.
And you did write about your experience in an op-ed.
I will leave a link in the description for people.
I highly recommend people read the op-ed.
In that article, you also talk about another monkey
and now I'm forgetting his name.
Norm. Norm, yes.
And how he was particularly affectionate towards humans.
Can you tell his story?
Yeah. Yeah.
So Norm was such a bizarre case
because, you know, rhesus monkeys as a species,
like they're, I mean, they're not like nice monkeys.
I mean, I, you know, I think they're great
and they're entitled to be who they are.
That's just like who they are, but they're not like,
it's very unusual for them to not just be sort of like chill
but actually seek affection from humans.
Monkeys in general see eye contact as a threat
and Norm didn't, or at least like he did,
he could tell with us like whether or not
that eye contact was a problem,
whereas most would just see it and be like,
you are threatening me.
And so Norm I met again, like early on in my training
because some of the other caretakers were showing me around
and Norm was one of the only monkeys
who at least on the caretaker side of things
had a name that was given to him by like care staff.
So this was not like me giving Patrick a name.
This was like, he was known as Norm.
People like gave him a name
because he had sort of made himself known.
I mean, it was so hard to individualize these animals.
They didn't want us to, it wasn't really preferred
because the more you individualize someone,
the more you care about them, the more that, you know,
what you're doing seems to make you conflicted about it.
So with Norm, Norm would, okay.
So basically my caretaker, the other caretaker
was showing me with Norm that he would come
and press his arm against the like mesh caging.
And then my coworker was using his fingers to groom Norm,
again, like with gloved hands,
as if like what monkeys do, they groom each other.
I mean, it's very natural behavior.
It's a soothing thing that they do.
And he would seek that out from the caretakers.
And then my coworker put his arm,
which was like jacketed against the mesh,
and Norm would do the same thing back
using his fingers to groom or, you know,
something of that sort back to like back for the coworker.
And so I quickly started doing that.
And of course they were like, you know,
don't tell anyone you're doing this.
You're not supposed to do this.
Like we're not, you know, especially cause these animals
are very dangerous.
I mean, I, you know, almost had a fingertip taken off.
So like, this is not something where it's like, yes,
try to have this relationship with everybody,
but Norm was Norm.
And so he was just kind of like one of those
where like brought some sort of joy in moments,
like to just have that kind of relationship.
And also sadness because it's like, why are you, yeah,
like you're so trusting of us.
And yet like we're the reason you're here
and that this is your life.
So again, there's so,
there were so many conflicting feelings,
but what ended up happening is that Norm was gone one day
and I was like finally asked, where's Norm?
And I was told that he was put into a research study
specifically on alcohol where he was given
unlimited access to alcohol.
And so what this meant was there were a few rooms
where researchers had monkeys that we did not take care of.
They were strictly under like research care.
So he was now one of those.
And so I never saw him again.
I don't know what happened to him.
I mean, I can imagine that if you're given
unlimited access to alcohol and this is your life,
it's hard for me to believe
that he didn't like drink himself to death.
I assume that if he didn't, they probably killed him to,
I don't know, look at what the alcohol did to his body,
to his brain.
And I just, it's like so, this story,
it just always gets me because I just think about
how the betrayal that he must have felt.
And I'm not trying to say what an animal feels
or get to, I don't know, make these assumptions,
but I don't know.
I know what my dog feels when I'm leaving her,
like when I'm leaving to go do something
where she's not coming along.
And then it's like, I just, it's hard for me
to not just feel heartbroken for him.
And also to wonder with the other staff
how they coped with that, knowing that he,
we all sort of had this relationship with him
that was pretty unique.
And do you feel bad for betraying him in that way?
Because I do, I think about him all the time.
And yeah, it just, I wonder if he was doing that
and he was still trying to get people to groom him
while he was being allowed to drink himself to death.
It's just, and then, and there's this whole,
like emotional factor, and then there's just this logic
factor of like, what?
Like we can't, what do you need to know about this animal?
Why does he need to be drinking this alcohol?
Why are you justifying this?
What can we do to help people who have,
who are experiencing alcoholism that like doesn't require us
to justify the use of this animal,
the use of these animals,
because I'm sure that like in any kind of,
like any other sort of issue,
it's like there's a bunch of resources
that people need access to that they don't have access to,
that financially, things could change for them.
And yet the way we're using resources is to do this to Norm,
to do this to individuals like Norm.
It's just like, it's mind blowing.
And again, it's, how do we justify this?
So Maddie, after hearing all of those gruesome details
about what happened in that lab
and just the violence of that place,
the question that comes to mind naturally is,
why did you stay?
Yeah.
So yeah, I think I kind of briefly touched on this,
but I would say there were like two main factors.
One being that I genuinely cared for these animals.
And I'm sure some of that was guilt.
Some of that is just the animal lover in me.
I wanted to take care of them.
I wanted to do whatever I could
to make their lives a little better,
or maybe it's more better to say less bad.
So there was that.
I also felt like I had made a commitment.
And I really, especially at that point in my life,
had issues with like disappointing people.
So I felt like I made that commitment.
I felt like I needed that experience still
to get from point A to point B.
I don't know, in my brain, it just was like,
I'm just like, oh my God,
if I don't get a good letter of recommendation,
what happens to me?
As if my life would have been over.
But in your early 20s,
this was my first job that wasn't babysitting.
Which like babysitting was a big deal.
I think it's not like,
people sometimes don't see it
as the responsibility it really is,
but it's still different than where you're hired
for a facility, your signing documents,
your, you know, like it just,
this was my first like, felt like grownup job.
And it felt like everything depended on it.
And I realize now that's very silly.
But I also can see that at that time in my life,
when I was a young impressionable person
who felt like authority is authority
because they deserve to be authority.
Not necessarily because,
well, they actually deserve to be authority
or know everything or, you know, whatever that is.
So yeah, it was the combination that kind of kept me there.
I felt like if I left, someone else just takes my place
and what if they don't care as much?
And I've talked to other lab workers
and that especially like people who have worked
in the care side of things,
as opposed to research.
And that seems to be a pretty common thing.
A lot of people, you know,
if they're going into animal care,
they're doing it because on some level,
they really care about animals.
They're not there because they want to harm animals.
This is their chance, like you said, with the pet store,
this is their chance to be around animals.
And yeah, I think we just end up sort of trying
to figure out how to cope with that.
Some of that is dissociating, shutting down.
Like I really felt like in college
that I lived two different lives.
I mean, there's so much I remember
about the rest of my life in college.
And then it was like, when I was in the lab,
it was like a different world.
But you were also manipulated.
I mean, again, you were very young.
How old were you?
So I would have been,
let me start, like 20,
20, wait, I graduated in 20, 21, 22?
21, 22?
That's young, that's very young.
Yeah, like 20, 21, 22, yeah.
No, I mean, it's really young,
especially like now being in, you know,
being almost 34, I'm like,
when I talk to college students, I'm like,
that's so young.
And this is your first experience usually,
for the most part, like away from, you know,
your parents, away from your guardians,
like on your own, being impacted very intensely
by whoever you're surrounded with,
whoever that community is.
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's no real surprise to me,
like now that I kind of am more understanding community
and dynamics and just like society
and how systems function that like,
it's also very, very intelligent of them
to get people in at such a young age.
A young age?
And then they must have picked up on, you know,
your kind of personality, you know,
that you're a people pleaser.
Obedient and likes to follow rules
and is very like cares a lot about how others view you.
And so you want to obey,
you want to succeed at whatever they want you to do.
And they must have had a prior experience,
maybe stretching out decades of experience
with other workers and they must have learned, you know,
how to keep those workers in the lab to, you know,
not make them, to not make them realize
what kind of place it is and to keep them longer.
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think you,
a lot of people, you either learn to like compartmentalize
or you have to get out.
And so, you know, the longer you're there,
the longer you're kind of figuring out
how to just separate these things
and the easier it's going to get
because you're kind of shutting down,
like you're mentally shutting down.
I mean, I would even during my two years there,
I remember like on the weekends when it was like,
it would be two of us student caretakers
in charge of all 500 plus monkeys,
like the feeding, the health checks, medications,
and then hosing down all of the enclosures.
The hosing down part, like I always had headphones in.
This was when,
Rolling in the Deep, Adele's album,
that album from Adele had come out.
I listened to that album on repeat.
It's like now when I listened to that album,
I almost, or like any of those songs,
it's actually kind of triggering to me
because I listened to it so nonstop
when I would be cleaning.
And it was, but it allowed me,
like it's like, I'm just like hosing down.
I'm able to just like not even pay attention
to the fact that these individuals
are just sitting here day after day, you know?
Like, what do they have to do?
Literally nothing.
So like we learned to do things, to disconnect,
to sort of make it easier to survive.
Let's talk about the researchers.
Did you consider them your colleagues
or like your superiors?
It was, in my experience at this lab,
it was very separate.
Like, he rarely came in contact with anyone
who was doing research.
And there was very much this kind of us and them mentality
that like I just like felt existed
where it was almost like we were often feeling
like we were in the way of the researchers,
even though our job was to take care of the monkeys
and keep them, you know, as healthy as possible
or whatever for the researchers.
So it was a little strange.
And, you know, again, the more that I've talked
to some other individuals who have been in labs
and have been in different positions,
I've heard similar things,
whether it's from the researcher side of thing or caretaker
where it's like these two kind of groups
are sort of separated from each other.
There's not a lot of interaction,
which I think is really fascinating
and also probably very deliberate.
You know, yeah, I don't, I mean,
I rarely interacted with any of them.
And even if I was around them,
it was more like I'm there in the peripheral
and they're doing their thing.
So. And how did you perceive them?
You know, did you think, are they feeling the same way I do?
Honestly, I mean, it was interesting
because like the students I wondered about,
I think the like, you know, the more like senior people,
like I guess grown adults, whatever,
you know, I was a little intimidated by
and just sort of like, I don't know,
I felt like I had to like keep quiet
and just set my head down
and like do what you're supposed to do.
Like I was nervous.
The one interaction that I remember very clearly
where I was around what I assumed to be a researcher
and they're like assistant,
again, I don't know who these two individuals were,
could not pick them out of a lineup.
But I was in like a kitchen type area
preparing medications for the weekend
because there were some we could prepare ahead of time.
And so I actually even, I think I had headphones in,
like I was sitting there, like had my back turned doing that
and they had come in, they were carrying a mother monkey,
there was a carrying cage.
So it's like this metal container
with these tiny little holes in it.
And that is how we would transport the monkeys
around the lab.
And they had the carrying cage,
usually like it sits vertically on the ground,
or sorry, horizontally on the ground.
So like, you know, it opens and it's closer to the ground,
but they had it tilted so it was vertical
so that like the opening was facing upwards.
And they had reached in and taken the newborn
from the mother who was in there and, you know,
closed it because they were going to be tattooing
the newborn's ear,
because that's like how you, yeah,
kept track of who they were, they were tattooed.
And the mother was screaming in the cage.
And I mean, you and I would say, of course,
like, you know, my baby was just ripped from me.
This is, what are you doing with my baby?
Where are you going with them?
And especially like the baby's crying,
you can hear your baby crying.
And I, you know, like it was obviously very upsetting,
but I'm just kinda like, you know,
keep doing what I'm doing.
And then I turn around and I see one of them
kind of nudge the crate with their foot and say,
oh, calm down.
And I just remember in that instant,
I think I was like taking deep breaths
because like I wanted to turn around and just start.
And I knew that if I did that, all of a sudden,
I am labeled an animal activist.
And even though like, it's like, oh my God,
it should be so obvious why they're freaking out.
And like, can you have a little compassion
for what these animals are experiencing right now?
Like they don't know that they're gonna be reunited
in a second and also their whole history of being here
and what that's been like, like,
can we take their perspective for like a half a second?
So that was really frustrating.
And that's, you know, one of my only experiences.
And, you know, I say that and I am very upset by it.
And also I am the person who is fiercely,
I don't know, advocating for people
to stop demonizing people in labs.
Because on some level, there is like,
this is not just like, oh, it's a bunch of bad people
doing bad things.
There is a system, a very powerful system in place.
I'm not saying that there's no agency.
There is agency, but it's just not as black and white
as people want it to be.
And it's not to say that there aren't also some researchers
who are doing just horrific things.
And like, I completely understand the anger
that comes especially from activists who are like,
how could you do this?
You know, like I get that.
But my thing is, is like, I see what has happened
from being able to connect with individuals
and see that there's actually a large number of us
who are not, you know, we're not just like cruel
and hate these animals.
Like, and there's people who are starting
to think differently, even when they're in the lab
and even when they seem like they aren't,
but they're feeling pressure from others
to act a certain way or to say certain things.
And I just, I, so like the reason that I'm going into this
is because I don't wanna say like, these are bad people
or, you know, I have this hatred towards them.
I was so angry with what took place.
And also like, I have no idea what those two are doing any,
like today, you know, I don't know what like,
one of those individuals could have decided
or be in the process of deciding that like, wow,
I don't know what I was doing,
because I did things I wasn't proud of in the lab.
I mean, truthfully, and things that like,
where I even felt like, like this feels like,
like I'm a monster,
but I'm never gonna call someone a monster.
Like we, those of us who are coming out of this,
who have had this experience and are like working through it,
we know, like we feel the guilt,
we feel those feelings of being a monster
and like someone else telling you that
doesn't make you wanna change.
So I don't know, my whole point here is just that like,
my experience, you know, that experience wasn't great,
but it's not like it made me define who everybody is
in a lab, let alone like all researchers or something.
Like I just, I think that,
I think there's like power dynamics at play
and in this industry,
and it really encourages people
to shut down their compassion.
I mean, going back to the vegan reality
in a world where people are eating corpses,
what do you expect?
I mean, sure, you are an active participant
in the suffering of that animal
in the context of lab research.
At the same time, I'm thinking,
it would be amazing world.
Like some of the best guests I had on the podcast
were people who worked in the animal industry
and hearing their stories of seeing the light
and seeking like a form of redemption
and becoming those incredible animal rights activists,
just gave me so much energy, so much hope,
so much inspiration.
And I feel like the real victory
is not to lash out on those researchers to demonize them.
The real victory is to make them your allies,
is to make them see the light
and just gain them as fellow vegans
and fellow animal rights activists.
And that's the most beautiful thing we could be doing.
So yeah, it's a mix of comments and thoughts.
You know, I hear over and over again,
I just got a message from someone who had reached out
a couple of years ago again, who was congratulating me
on launching Justify as a nonprofit and saying, you know,
still working through some stuff emotionally,
but I would love to help if I can do anything.
And so it's really rewarding to see that this work
is resonating with people and making them feel
like there's a community for them that is safe.
You know, that just is sort of like what keeps me going
and what reminds me that what I'm doing matters.
You know, I've recently had a PhD student
who contacted me, had actually found me through
my Washington Post feature,
which is a whole nother kind of side of things,
but having to do with a lawsuit related to free speech
related to my work in the animal labs.
And anyway, they had contacted me
because they wanted to talk about what it had been like,
what it was like doing working on their PhD.
Working on their PhD and working with animals in labs.
And I don't want to give away too much information
because it's, you know, I'm keeping, like,
some individuals that want to share their stories
and some are not ready to, and some may never want to,
and that is completely fine.
But I think this individual, you know,
is an example of someone who, you know,
is had this experience, started to question things,
started doing some Google searches
to look into like what was going on, somehow found me.
We had an hour and a half conversation
and is now continuing to chat with more members
of this community to get ideas on where to go from here.
And members of this community who, you know,
are not like necessarily sort of part of justify,
but are people whose work is adjacent.
So like someone like Dr. Aisha Akhtar,
the co-founder of Center for Contemporary Sciences,
big, you know, background in science.
And it was just like connecting them was great
because it's like, here's someone who has all of these ideas
of what you can still do in science,
but not be doing this, you know.
Similarly, I don't know if you're familiar with Richard,
Richard J. Miller, I want to grab the book,
but it's far away from me.
The rise and fall of animal experimentation.
He recently, I don't know,
just like I recently learned about him.
I think I found him through X, you know, now,
or previously Twitter.
He worked in animal research for like four decades,
over four decades and wrote this book
that just came out last year.
Fascinating read, highly recommend.
And, you know, really kind of goes into like the history
and kind of bringing up these questions
of is this what we should be doing now?
Like, is this really where our focus should be
if we're trying to progress science and help humans.
And so being able to connect individuals
within this community that they didn't even know existed
is amazing.
And I'm realizing as part of this work with justify,
it's not just about like, you know, your feelings are valid.
And like, I've had these experiences too,
and this is really hard, but it's also about like,
how can we empower you to, you know,
to not feel like you've just like lost this community,
lost this world that you thought you would be a part of,
or you thought you were doing,
and was, you know, supposed to work out and didn't,
because that can be really defeating, you know,
when it's everything you've known,
like that's what you thought you were gonna be doing,
and you really had no idea what it would be like.
Because you chose not to demonize them
and to provide them with a safe space,
you've gained some powerful allies
that know intimately this industry
and can then help you dismantle it, you know,
and this suffering, which is, you know,
from a strategic perspective in terms of activism,
it's wonderful, that's what we want.
Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it's true, and, you know,
I say that and I, yeah, I agree, it's extremely strategic,
but I also like, you know, it's important for me
to make it clear that it's not about being strategic for,
I mean, I think it's important, obviously,
like I care about these animals,
I don't want this to be happening to them.
I also consider myself a social justice activist,
a human rights activist.
I am sick of how this industry, you know,
uses all these resources
that could actually be helping people right now, you know,
like the NIH needs to figure out how to use funding
in a way that is better helping people today right now,
because that is possible, I know it is.
And so my point here is just that like, yes,
it is strategic, but also like,
I genuinely care about these individuals.
I am making some like fabulous connections and friendships
and just like growing my world and learning at the same time.
And I'm not doing this to try to create a bunch of people
who think exactly like me, you know,
a lot of the people I talk to are not animal activists,
they're not vegan, you know,
I mean, we can say everyone's pre-vegan or whatever,
but I don't think that's, you know,
like it's not that I don't think it would be great,
the less animals being harmed, the better, sure.
But I'm also like,
the more just of a world we can create, the better.
And that just, there's different ways to approach that.
And I, you know, when we write people off
because they're not exactly where we are,
it's just, it's a loss, it's a loss in general.
It's a loss for animals, but it's a loss for all of us,
because we can learn from each other
and really kind of make change together.
And I never want like with justify one thing
that I keep saying, and you know, I will say to donors,
I will say to anyone that like,
the last thing I'm gonna do is try to force anyone to talk.
I don't want any individuals from labs
to ever feel like my intention with them
is to like give them a mic.
If, and when they are ready, that is great.
And I definitely foresee it happening.
Like it's, I know that that will happen
with some individuals,
and I think that's wonderful and important,
but I don't want people to think like,
my end goal is forcing you to talk about this
or to say certain things,
because I want people to be honest.
I want them to, I think all of our experiences together
collectively can really invoke change.
And it doesn't need to be something where it's like curated
that we all have the same exact opinion.
This industry is very secretive
and the more variety of voices that we've got
coming together and just feeling supported by each other,
I think, you know, a lot of people go into animal research,
even if it's not like the animal care side of things,
I love animals, they're going into it
because usually they wanna help animals.
I mean, oh, or sorry, animals, humans,
like, you know, progress medicine, things like that,
because they do care.
I know that there's like, you know,
this whole system at play, especially with academia,
with like PhD work and this idea that like,
you have to come up with a question
and then you gotta answer that question,
and usually they want you to do animal testing.
So it's also very like interwoven into systems,
but I think that some of these individuals
are also seeing that too,
like they, and they wanna see like, how can we change that?
How can we stop having everything
lead back to animal testing?
You know, and I think that a lot of us,
even people who are pro animal research,
there is a level of the studies that take place
that we could probably all agree on should just be done,
should never take place again.
There are certain things where it's like,
we can agree that this is unnecessary.
So I think that there's points of meeting
that we can come together and yeah, I don't know.
I've just, I've really come to believe in this work
and I'm feeling a lot of support, which is great.
Honestly, some of the biggest criticisms so far,
I'm sure there will be some from the industry,
but some of the biggest criticism
is from animal rights activists,
which has always kind of been the case for me
because some people just can't figure out
how to, I don't know, empathize, understand
how I ended up in a lab despite everything I'm doing now.
But I think most, a good chunk of the community
is really supportive and realizes
that we have to get outside of our own bubble.
You know, like it's just, we have to embrace
like our differences.
We have to go back to kindergarten and, you know,
figure out that like there wasn't, you know, I don't know,
vegans shouldn't be put on a pedestal
just because they're vegan.
Animal rights activists shouldn't be put on a pedestal
just because they're an animal rights activist.
That doesn't mean that they're free of any sort of like,
I don't know, imperfections.
And I think that goes with anyone.
So people have a lot to offer
and they deserve to heal too.
100% agree, I mean, it's so unfair to judge someone
for the worst thing they have done in their life.
Like we're bigger than that
and we have potential to do lots of good things.
Let's not imprison people in their past.
And also it's always surprising to see, for me at least,
to see vegans being judgmental.
Because, you know, I think for me,
it's wrong to eat animals and animal products.
It's again, going back to that image of a corpse.
But I had to learn to accept, you know,
people who disagree with me.
Yeah.
And to live with them and to love them
and to still respect them.
And to still believe in what I believe
and to still push that agenda of animal rights.
And I found myself, you know, doing that.
I found myself becoming, I guess, a bigger person.
Like in the sense of, you know,
developing my compassion and my empathy
and having this greater view of things.
And I'm surprised that other vegans
are not forced into that position of doing that kind of work.
Because I feel like, you know,
if I did not have that perspective,
I would have, you know, just become mad and mad at the world.
Well, I think that's where a lot of people are.
Yeah, I mean.
And, you know, like I'm mad too.
Like, you know, but I think it's,
how do we, what do we do with that anger?
How are we using it?
Who are we taking it out on?
You know, like, does demonizing animal lab workers
liberate animals?
No, it doesn't.
It just doesn't.
And, you know, can bringing people together
on common sort of core beliefs, like, I don't know,
compassion and even in some ways, like greater good,
but looking at it differently.
Like, you know, like not this whole using animals
for the greater good, but how can we,
like, what do we think needs to actually happen
for the greater good?
I think there's more alignment there.
And yeah, it's just important to sort of get outside
the vegan bubble.
It's simple.
You'll feel happier and you'll be more impactful.
I mean, that's a great deal.
I mean, take it.
It is.
Yeah, no, it's, the anchor is hard.
It's not good for us either.
I mean, again, it's normal.
It's, you know, it shouldn't be like,
oh my God, this is so wild that you're angry.
Like, of course, but yeah, if it's all that like,
is sort of running you, it's not good.
I gave myself high blood pressure at one point.
And oh my gosh, don't get me started
on the number of vegans who are like,
eating vegan lowers your blood pressure.
Well, guess what?
As a vegan, I gave myself high blood pressure.
You know, that's where like the anger and the trauma,
like when I really had it not under control, you know,
I was being told you gotta get this under control
or you need to go on medication.
I was like 29, you know, like, I mean, it's so,
being vegan isn't a fix all.
It's not this like, you know, it's great.
It's, you know, but it's just one thing
and there's so much more.
Yeah.
Exactly, I realized I had that phase
and I realized I don't have the luxury of being angry.
I really don't.
It costs too much in public health, you know,
healthcare and I only have one life.
You know, that's how poor I am, just one.
Okay.
So Maddie, did I forget to mention something?
Did we forget something?
Did you forget to talk about anything?
Is that what you said?
So yes, to ask you about anything important.
I mean, not really.
Like I know we didn't talk about my lawsuits,
but we definitely don't need to.
We could even talk about them a different time.
I think it's, yeah, it's kind of a whole other deep dive,
but yeah, if there's any listeners curious,
they can look more into my social media
and find information, reach out and ask.
Check out the Washington Post features.
100%, yes.
I was also thinking that deserves its own episode.
Yeah.
And yes, you're welcome to come back on the show anytime,
Maddie.
It was really a pleasure.
Really, thank you.
Thank you so much for the work you're doing
and for having accepted my invitation.
Of course, thank you so much for having me.
And yeah, I really appreciated this
very casual conversation style.
It just, yeah, I appreciated this discussion
and I'm glad that I was invited too.
Thank you so much.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast
with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring
and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.
Thank you.