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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report. Today,

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we are exploring the dark world of animal experimentation. And to guide us through this

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journey is Madeline Krasnow. From 2011 to 2013, Madeline cared for over 500 monkeys at the

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University of Wisconsin-Madison's Harlow Primate Research Lab, an experience that left her with

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PTSD and ignited her passion for change. She recently co-founded Justify, an organization

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dedicated to advancing science without human or animal suffering. Madeline's mission is to build

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the community she desperately needed when she left the Primate Lab back in 2013, and to push

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for a future where science and ethics go hand in hand. Thank you so much Maddie for having accepted

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my invitation and welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. So I want to start by congratulating

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you on obtaining a nonprofit status. It's wonderful. So congratulations. Yeah, we are very excited.

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Big plans ahead for Justify. So let me start with this. Why did you name your nonprofit Justify?

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Yeah, that's an excellent question. So, you know, the way that Justify came about was that me and

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the two co-founders, who have also both worked in animal research or animal research labs,

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to some capacity, had come together and were really kind of acting as this supportive community for

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each other, talking about our experiences. And as we did that, we were finding that it was really

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healing to be able to talk to someone who not only like understood what it was actually like to be in

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the lab, but was very non-judgmental about it. And also, you know, the three of us are all big animal

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lovers. We're animal activists. And, you know, it can be a little scary to be talking about this kind

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of experience in the animal rights space. There can be a lot of judgment about how did you end up

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there? Like, why didn't you just immediately leave? So anyway, finding this community was really

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helpful for us. And it was through that that then we started realizing like, why didn't you just

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just leave? And like, this community needs to be bigger. Like, there's probably more of us out

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there. We know there's more of us out there. And we want to create that. And so that's where like

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the idea for Justify came about. And then in terms of, you know, the name, we were tossing things back

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and forth for a while. But what we kept coming back to is, you know, how the animal research

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is able to keep going, like its history and how strong it is today. And how what really has kind

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of kept up the momentum is the justifications behind it. And what happens with those justifications,

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how those justifications affect us. So like, you know, what happens when we justify what we're

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doing, whether that justification is for the greater good, or whether it's, you know, in my

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case, like I was staying in the lab, because I was worried that someone who cared less about the

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monkeys would be in charge of their care. And so, you know, that's how I was justifying this. And

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then what were the implications of my justification? I mean, the ramifications ended up being that I

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was diagnosed with PTSD. And so I think there's a lot of ways to like, look at this and kind of

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dissect that word justify, because I really think it's core to the animal research industry. And

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yeah, just how it how it continues how it stays, stays strong, stays funded.

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Yes, it's a an engaging word. Justify. I like it a lot. And it goes at the heart

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of the world of animal experimentation. You mentioned justify for the greater good. I think

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that for the general public, the idea of a lipstick company experimenting on rabbits or monkeys is

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despicable. I think that we arrived at that point. But there is still this idea that if it's for a

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greater good, if it's, you know, to fight a disease or something like that, then we are justified to

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torture those animals. What do you say to that? Yeah, I mean, it's yeah, I think it's interesting

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because I, I agree that that the whole cosmetics thing is really kind of on its way out. And people

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have sort of accepted that and champion that which is great. But I also I think there's also just some

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misunderstanding about how little that's actually what's even taking place at this point. People

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will say like, you know, I'm, oh, don't worry, I'm cruelty free, like, I only buy cruelty free

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products. But I think there's, again, sort of this lack of understanding of how much of the research

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taking place has nothing to do with, you know, cosmetics at this point, things like that. So I

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think that's a piece of things. And then, you know, this whole greater good discussion, it's, it's

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it's just not black and white. And I think that there's been, you know, the message that's put

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out there, especially by the industry is that, you know, if would you would you choose this rat over,

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you know, this child, or would you choose this monkey over your grandma. And that, you know,

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of course, is going to immediately bring up these really strong emotions. You know, humans tend to,

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to, to care very deeply and more so towards humans. And so I think it's understandable that

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people's reaction is like, grandma, you know, like, or this, this child. But I also think that that's

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it's manipulation, because that's not actually how animal experimentation works. It's not like,

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you know, here's this rat. And if we just do this one thing to the rat, here's the cure. You know,

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it's, there's, there's so much more that takes place, so much more funding, so many more lives

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that are, are being used, and often not coming up actually with that cure. It's, it's this, it's kind

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of like, rolling the dice. It's like, I mean, in some ways, it's like winning the lottery,

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you keep trying. And like, if you keep entering, you might win, but like your chances very slim.

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And so I just, I think there needs to be some sort of like, there needs, the public needs to be more

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aware of like, what this process actually looks like, how successful animal experimentation

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actually is when it comes to these, you know, big, incredible, finds, discoveries, whatever.

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Because the messaging is so compelling, of course, but it's also very misleading. And it's just not

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that simple. Yeah. I think there are a lot of parallels that could be drawn between this

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industry of animal exploitation and the factory farming industry, starting with the fact that

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it's hidden. And like you said, it's very obscure. If you ask people, you know, where are they doing

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that kind of research? I don't think your average person could, you know, point to a place. So what

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do you say about this fact that it's hidden and that there's this lack of knowledge and understanding

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of this industry? Yeah. I mean, it's very deliberate. What we are fed, like as the public versus

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what is actually taking place, it's meant to be palatable. It's meant to, you know, invoke trust

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in, you know, the industry that, you know, what they're saying is true. And if we just keep as

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much of it concealed as possible, then how are they going to know? So yeah, it's a deliberate move.

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I mean, it reminds me, this is a little bit of a tangent, but are you familiar with Fair Oaks

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Farms in Indiana? No. Okay. So this may fascinate you. This is a factory farm that is open to the

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public. It is sort of like marketed as Disneyland, but it's a farm and it's a factory farm. I had

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learned about it and decided, you know, and I should like premise all of this that like I, or

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preface, sorry, premise, preface all of this by saying that, you know, I've worked in animal

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protection for like about a decade since I basically left the animal research lab that I

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worked in. And I was doing a lot with farm animal sanctuaries and educating about food, our food

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system and the treatment of farm animals. And so when I learned about this, as much as it sounds

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horrific, I wanted to go because I wanted to see like, what is it they're doing? What does that look

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like? And I mean, it's very much meant to be like, well, if we show you exactly what we want you to

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see and hear, then we'll help you feel good about what we're doing. And so, you know, I remember,

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first of all, the night before I was going to be going, I could barely eat. Like I felt so sick to

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my stomach that I was even going to be showing up at this facility where I knew, like, what was

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taking place where these animals would go, you know, their story, what what would happen to them.

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So anyway, what was interesting about the place and what is coming to mind is like the way that

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they display things. So like, for example, with the the pig area, so they had a cow area, and they

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had a pig area, like dairy cows, pigs. And with the pigs, you know, there's all these like different

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rooms where you've got different age pigs, and you look down and you can see them, you can even see

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like there's moms and gestation crates with the babies, or sorry, in ferro in crates with the

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babies, you know, eating and you can see actually, moms and gestation crates and like, you know,

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lots of babies running around in different rooms. So like, and people are looking down and like

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owing and owing because like cute little baby pigs, right. And you know, they're seeing some

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of these things. And if you're not familiar with like, what a gestation crate is, and what that's

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really like, or what a ferro in crate is, and what that's really like for these individuals,

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you're seeing this, and they're kind of just hanging out and it's quiet. Because guess what,

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the the you see them, but it's soundproof. So you cannot hear their screams, like even if like pigs

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are fighting, and you can see scrapes on some of their backs from them getting in fights, but you

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can't hear anything. So like, they've decided that the sound is not worth, you know, experiencing,

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which I think is really interesting, because it takes away the chaos of what is being felt by these

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pigs, right. And similarly, like there's a little spot where they had like taken two newborn piglets,

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and they have them in this little like container. It was like, a group would stand around, they'd be

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like, let's name the babies. And it's like this dissociation or what am I trying to say, not

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dissociation. Like compartmentalizing. Yeah, of just like, oh my gosh, they're so cute, let's name

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them. And then they're going to, you know, go be made into pork, bacon, whatever. And when you ask

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the staff questions, they have very deliberate answers, you know, like I had asked, for example,

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you know, why, why do the piglets, like, why don't they have tails? And I know the answer to this,

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I know they're cutting off the tails, because, you know, especially in crowded situations,

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they get really stressed, and they end up biting each other's tails off. And so they just cut them

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off right away. But they danced around that and said it was better for them, you know, like,

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for their well being or something like that. But they won't actually tell you the truth, which is

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that these animals are very stressed out. And, you know, the situation they've been put in is

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unnatural, to say the least. So, you know, I think about this. And then there's also like all of this

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marketing taking place, like you see a sign and it's like half a half a pig face and half a human

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face. And it's like, pigs are so intelligent, they can play video games. And it's like comparing like

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humans and pigs and, and telling you like, they're so great. And then in like, you know, the next

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display, it's like, and this is why it's important to eat pork, you know what I mean? And you're like,

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oh my god, your face. No, I mean, it's literally like mind blowing. And this is just like, you know,

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the the pig section, there's a whole dairy section, which, you know, same type of like, this is what

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you see, this is what we're going to show you, this is what we're going to say. And all of this is

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meant to sort of make you like, be like, be able to ooh and ah this and say like, oh, cute, look at

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the pigs, and then go to the restaurant that's on property and eat them. So it's, I mean, it's a

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little absurd. And yet I'm on a bus with my mom, and on the bus is a bunch of kids with teachers.

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And I heard one of the kids say, it's like Disneyland. And that I think is is very similar

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to what you know, we want people to view the animal experimentation industry as like,

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we're going to give you something that feels palatable. There are these very exciting things

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that could potentially happen that could, you know, save the world save, you know, cure this disease.

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But in terms of the follow through in terms of what actually is coming out of it, it's like,

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there isn't actually accountability, we're not looking at it by the numbers of, you know,

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the animals whose lives what what those lives are about day to day, what they experience in the

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actual experiments, where they're where they're coming from, if they're actually taken from the

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wild or bred in these labs themselves, you know, we're not looking at the amount of funding that is

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funneled into this and, you know, comes out with what we're not looking at the number of researchers

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or people who go into this field and then believing because, you know, they're told they can't handle

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it. But in reality, it's like they start to have ethical issues with what's taking place. And then

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we lose these compassionate scientists who could probably be doing amazing things. Because, you know,

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they're all geared, you know, they're all like funneled towards you got to do animal testing in

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some way. We're not looking at where this funding could actually change human lives today, like in

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this moment, there's so many people who still don't have access to health care, medication, things

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that actually exist right now, things that might have even come from animal research, but they still

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won't even ever have access to it because they don't have the funds or the means to get that

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because the way these systems work. And so it's like, I just think there's so much more we have

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to look at when it comes to this industry and why things are currently functioning the way they are,

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because if this is really for the greater good, if this is really about helping humans, you know,

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the number of people who have just said like, I can't afford therapy. And yet, I know like at my

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alma mater, they're inducing extreme anxiety and female monkeys to study anxiety. And it's like,

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how about we get people who have anxiety, there's so many of us here I am, you know, talk to them,

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give them access to what actually exists because chances are, you know, with the cost of health

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care, with the cost of health insurance, like these things are just not accessible. And so it

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just feels like we're doing this thing over here and putting all of these resources into it, when

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you could take so many of those resources and actually make a huge difference. And so I just

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think there's a lot of a lot of things to look at here. And ultimately, messaging, I think has a lot

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to do with it in terms of how they're like marketing this industry and, and this idea of

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what's going to come from it as opposed to what we could do now with these resources.

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And I'm thinking about how there's this mental health crisis in college campuses,

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which is this added detail that just drives you crazy. Yes. No pun intended.

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But let me just quickly go back to that shocking story of Disneyland Slaughterhouse.

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I just want to know, did those kids, well, first of all, were you allowed to take pictures?

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Yes. Yeah, I have I have pictures. And you can even like you can go to their Instagram,

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you can go to their website and see what it is they want to put out there. Yeah, I took pictures

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of like some of those signs. That's why like I remember them because it's now I mean, honestly,

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this is like 67 years ago or something that I had gone there. So it's been a while and I'm sure

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there's more that's changed. About it. I know they were talking about having a child, but I

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know they were talking about having a chicken facility. I don't know if that actually happened.

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But this they get they're like south of Chicago. So they get, you know, busloads of kids like field

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trips and you know, and even other like types of groups that come for tours. I mean, it is like

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this destination. They were building a hotel on property outside there was a dog run. If you

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brought your dog, there was a little place for the dog could run. And, you know, because, you know,

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we don't eat those ones. So yeah, there I mean, the the disconnect was fascinating and infuriating,

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to say the least. In Chicago, the birthplace of the modern factory farm. Yeah, it's the more I'm

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thinking about it, the more twisted it seems, because the people who designed that place must

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know that people would badly react to, for instance, hearing those cries, those screams.

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That's why they built the soundproofing system. So they know they are suffering. Yes. Yeah.

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They know they are lying to the public and they're thinking about selling that lie.

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And protecting that lie. Now, when I became vegan, a little bit more than nine years ago,

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I was taught that, well, I learned that you don't go to those places, you never visit them.

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You don't visit zoo or any of those facilities where you exploit animals for entertainment.

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Sure. Recently, you know, a podcast dedicated to veterinarians, I had Dr. Crystal Heath, and she said,

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no, as a vegan, you should go to those places and you should document the sufferings that you see.

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There should be someone witnessing the bad things happening in the zoo and in that place. So

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why is it important for us to visit those kinds of places? And how did you find in you the

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motivation to go and visit that place? Yeah. Well, first, I want to say that

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Dr. Heath is incredible. And I've been working closely with her. She is, her organization,

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Our Honor, is our fiscal sponsor as we are pursuing nonprofit status for Justify.

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And I've just learned so much from her and really respect everything she does and her viewpoint on

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things. You know, I went from like, you know, growing up, like I would visit zoos and then to

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a point where I was like, I don't want to visit zoos because, you know, then it looks like I

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support zoos. And now I'm sort of back at this point where I'm like, well, it depends on why

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you're going. Like, what is your motivation? And even if you're bringing children, like,

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are you talking to them about what this means and what like for these animals and what their

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experience looks like? Or are you just saying, look at that, a lion, this is so cool, moving on,

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look at that, a giraffe, this is so cool, moving on. You know, like, are we having conversations

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about, you know, what is actually happening here? Because then I think it's different and it's

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important as Dr. Heath said to be aware of, because if no one is documenting what's going on,

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then we don't know when those animals are sort of left to, you know, whatever care is happening

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to them. So I, yeah, I think, you know, when it came to visiting Fair Oaks, I of course did not

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want to, I mean, I felt sick to my stomach the night before. I felt like, you know, and I don't,

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I'm one of those people that doesn't like to make comparisons or, you know, is very like careful

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about this sort of thing. But, you know, as someone who's Jewish, I couldn't help but feel

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like I was visiting some sort of like, you know, like concentration camp, like some, this sort of

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like, like the fact that I'm going to this place where I view these animals so differently, you

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know, like I literally just come from working, you know, as a tour guide for a farm animal sanctuary

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where these animals are rescued from this industry and they're living this beautiful life

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alongside, you know, other rescued animals and community and where they're cared for and their

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needs are put first. And so it felt very sickening to me to be entering this like, all these

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different universe where, you know, all I can think about is not just what they're going through,

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but what their end is. And it really just had me thinking. Yeah. About, about that. I think I had

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just recently read, I feel like I don't know how to properly pronounce his name, but Eli Weasel

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or Ellie Weisel, Weasel yeah. Google doesn't really like Mr. micro?

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Sounds familiar.

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And whoever's listening to this, don't judge me.

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But the book Knight, I had just read that and I had,

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it just was all kind of,

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I remember discussing this with my mom

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and just feeling like, I don't know.

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I'm not the type of person that is like,

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this is just, I do not,

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I personally do not agree with things like,

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this is the Holocaust or this is like the Holocaust.

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But I think like as a Jewish person who's family,

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I did, there's family that perished in the Holocaust.

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Like there are pieces of this where I can see patterns,

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patterns in how we treat animals

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and how like certain groups of humans are treated.

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And it just, yeah, like I felt it was like a betrayal.

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Like I felt like I was engaging in betrayal.

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But then at the same time, I'm like,

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well, if I don't see it and share what I see

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and what that experience was like,

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there's, then there's fewer people like me

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who are coming at it from that perspective

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as opposed to, look at this, you guys,

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I just went to Disneyland.

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It's so great.

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Like, look at these cute piglets that were in this,

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just born, it's like,

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those perspectives need to come take place

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and so it's not easy to sort of, I don't know,

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like make yourself do that.

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And I wouldn't say that anyone needs

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to make themselves do that.

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Like you don't need to put yourself through something

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if you feel like it's, you're not ready for it

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or it's gonna cause extreme trauma.

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Like I don't, I think there's other ways to contribute

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to creating a just world.

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But if you are able and too,

250
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I think that that can be really important.

251
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And so that's kind of ultimately how I justified that choice.

252
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Yes, the comparison with the Holocaust is fascinating.

253
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Have you heard of the book, An Eternal Treblinka?

254
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Yes, I have, and I have not read it,

255
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but I definitely have heard of it, yes.

256
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I think it was one of those that like,

257
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I know I should read, but it was like,

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am I ready to read this?

259
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And so far I have not been, but yeah.

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This book left a deep impression on me.

261
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I definitely recommend the book

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for those who are listening.

263
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It's an excellent book.

264
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It's a classic of animal rights, so yeah.

265
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Okay, so Maddie, were you one of those people

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who believed the lie before being,

267
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starting working for that lab at your college?

268
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Were you part of those people who were not aware at all

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of the cruelty of the animal experimentation industry?

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Yeah, I felt very unaware.

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And I think it's so interesting,

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because even recently, the social media world is fascinating

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because it gives people a platform.

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It gives people a platform, even if they stay anonymous,

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to just say some pretty awful things.

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And a lot of what I see are things like,

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how could you possibly not know?

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And one of the things that I think is really important

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is like Instagram, I think was created

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my sophomore year of college.

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That was like when it first started.

282
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And I joined, I ended up becoming an animal caretaker

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at the lab the spring of my sophomore year of college.

284
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There wasn't, and I wasn't a huge social media person,

285
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and I didn't really read the news.

286
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So like, there's, I think people sort of forget that,

287
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and I still think that there's people today

288
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who go into labs and are not aware truly

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of what the day-to-day is like,

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of what this is really like to see animals like this,

291
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of the trauma that can develop over time.

292
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But even so, especially for me back then,

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it was like, if you're not reading books on it,

294
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it was very easy to not really know,

295
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and to just know the sound bites or whatever,

296
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which are, it's for the greater good.

297
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Like we've had all these amazing discoveries.

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It's so important.

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And in my mind, I had decided,

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I had always looked up to Jane Goodall.

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I really wanted to work in primate conservation.

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I just thought primates were fascinating.

303
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Yeah, I saw myself doing that.

304
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And so with two primate labs on campus,

305
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I was like, well, I could get some experience,

306
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and this would be like a great letter of recommendation

307
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for then like moving forward.

308
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And that was really how I viewed it.

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I did not, oh my God, I did not have any idea

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that I would come out of that lab

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experiencing being diagnosed with PTSD

312
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and experiencing repetitive nightmares,

313
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being back in the lab, trying to take photos,

314
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but the photos won't be taken

315
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because I hate that I never took photos.

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So I'm like punishing myself and my dreams.

317
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It's, yeah, I think that again,

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I think activists kind of forget that they live in a bubble

319
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and that a lot of people really don't know,

320
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even if it's like animal research.

321
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So you're like, you know, putting, I don't know,

322
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like doing an injection into an animal,

323
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like that can seem very chill,

324
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like, you know, cause like animals get shots at the vet.

325
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So what's the difference?

326
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And one of the things that I really like to talk about,

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especially from the perspective of a caretaker

328
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is what it's like to see these animals day to day

329
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living in barren cages with barely any stimulation,

330
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some of them living alone.

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I mean, it's kind of crazy making

332
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and the way we justify this existence for them.

333
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I think that that's not talked about enough.

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Sometimes we're so focused on the research

335
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that like we forget that there's this whole being

336
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that has a life and what that life is like,

337
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not just in the actual research study.

338
00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:26,500
You know, I completely relate

339
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because I remember being a kid

340
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:31,860
and wanting to work for a pet store.

341
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And I thought, you know, I love animals.

342
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So this is the best job for me.

343
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I will be caring for dogs and all sorts of animals

344
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all day long.

345
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This would be wonderful.

346
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Of course.

347
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:49,500
So what was the process of getting selected

348
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:52,660
to become the caretaker?

349
00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:56,260
How do they let you in and employ you?

350
00:31:56,260 --> 00:31:58,340
How do they choose their employees basically?

351
00:31:58,340 --> 00:32:02,820
Yeah, I mean, obviously this was, so I left back in 2013,

352
00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:06,500
like I was there 2011 to 2013 and I graduated in 2013.

353
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:10,220
So it is definitely possible that things have changed

354
00:32:10,220 --> 00:32:12,740
that the process I imagine has got,

355
00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:16,340
has definitely evolved with social media

356
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because like there wouldn't have been anything

357
00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:21,180
for them to look up at the time about me.

358
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And I wasn't an animal rights activist.

359
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So it's, you know, the point there is moot

360
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:29,260
but like, I just think it's interesting nowadays

361
00:32:29,260 --> 00:32:31,180
that I'm sure that they're doing deep dives

362
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to make sure whoever they're allowing in

363
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doesn't have a secret agenda.

364
00:32:37,380 --> 00:32:42,380
But yeah, in my case, I, you know,

365
00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:48,380
I saw the application for a student caretaker role.

366
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And that's like kind of what I was waiting for.

367
00:32:55,540 --> 00:32:58,500
I remember like for weeks, like I was like told

368
00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,260
that that's where like it would be and that they would,

369
00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:05,300
you know, be up on the job site for the university.

370
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:10,300
And I, when that finally went up, I applied,

371
00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:14,900
I was emphasizing my background in caretaking

372
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because I had been babysitting for human children

373
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since I was 10 years old.

374
00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:24,420
Yeah, just babysitting, nannying on and off.

375
00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:25,540
I really loved kids.

376
00:33:25,540 --> 00:33:28,420
I was actually majoring in child development

377
00:33:28,420 --> 00:33:31,660
and I had added zoology as a double major.

378
00:33:31,660 --> 00:33:35,340
Of course, I had also done like pet care gigs growing up.

379
00:33:35,340 --> 00:33:39,020
So like loved animals was a natural caretaker.

380
00:33:39,020 --> 00:33:43,420
And I know that like when I got the interview

381
00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:46,100
and then actually when I was hired,

382
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:48,940
my boss, the director of animal care had told me

383
00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:52,780
that I really reminded her of one of their caretakers

384
00:33:52,780 --> 00:33:54,260
who ended up training me.

385
00:33:55,420 --> 00:33:56,940
And that's like why I was hired.

386
00:33:56,940 --> 00:33:59,700
Like, I mean, the caretaker background and just who I was

387
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:02,220
and how I seemed like a really hard worker

388
00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:07,220
and very, you know, just sort of like dedicated

389
00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:10,220
to whatever I was doing, which was true.

390
00:34:10,220 --> 00:34:13,100
I mean, I was very passionate.

391
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:14,060
I was very excited.

392
00:34:14,060 --> 00:34:16,940
I mean, I'm sure they could tell I wanted this job.

393
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,580
Before the first, before the interview,

394
00:34:22,580 --> 00:34:25,820
I paced outside on the phone with my mom for an hour.

395
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:27,660
Like, and she was just like, it's gonna be fine.

396
00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:28,500
It's gonna be fine.

397
00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:32,180
Like, I mean, I thought that if I didn't get this,

398
00:34:32,180 --> 00:34:35,980
like somehow my future with Jane Goodall

399
00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:37,300
would never happen, you know?

400
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:41,020
Like that's where I was in my brain.

401
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:44,740
I don't remember, I get asked this a lot.

402
00:34:44,740 --> 00:34:45,860
So I'm just gonna answer it.

403
00:34:45,860 --> 00:34:48,260
I don't remember if I signed an NDA.

404
00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:52,060
I don't remember what sort of documents I signed.

405
00:34:52,060 --> 00:34:54,700
I remember being told you're not allowed to take pictures.

406
00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:56,700
I mean, when I started, I had like a,

407
00:34:56,700 --> 00:34:57,860
I didn't even have an iPhone.

408
00:34:57,860 --> 00:35:00,500
I think I had like a flip phone or something like that.

409
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:05,500
So again, the time, like digitally,

410
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:07,060
things have changed since then,

411
00:35:07,060 --> 00:35:11,480
which I'm sure adds a whole other layer to this work.

412
00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:17,300
But yeah, that's, and you know, so I was hired.

413
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:22,300
I, and then immediately, you know, started training

414
00:35:22,940 --> 00:35:27,660
and started going, oh, this is not quite

415
00:35:27,660 --> 00:35:29,300
what I thought it would be.

416
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,820
Meanwhile, you know, people on campus would be like,

417
00:35:31,820 --> 00:35:34,340
it's so cool that you play with monkeys all day.

418
00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:37,260
And I was like, yeah, that's not what I do, but.

419
00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:43,820
You never took pictures of, you know, inside the place,

420
00:35:43,820 --> 00:35:48,820
but I'm sure they were filming everything,

421
00:35:48,820 --> 00:35:49,820
you know, the experiments.

422
00:35:49,820 --> 00:35:54,060
And I know that there are plenty of animal rights,

423
00:35:54,060 --> 00:35:57,380
nonprofits like Animal Partisan,

424
00:35:57,380 --> 00:36:02,380
who sued those labs in order to get that footage

425
00:36:02,980 --> 00:36:04,740
and publish that footage.

426
00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:07,640
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's possible.

427
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,460
Yeah, I know, I know that that took place again

428
00:36:10,460 --> 00:36:14,220
with OHSU who was mentioned and a VOL study

429
00:36:14,220 --> 00:36:17,180
where they were deleting footage

430
00:36:17,180 --> 00:36:18,620
that they weren't supposed to be deleting.

431
00:36:18,620 --> 00:36:23,620
So I don't know how much that's like happened with Madison.

432
00:36:23,620 --> 00:36:27,420
I do know that there was someone was undercover there

433
00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:31,300
after my time there and that undercover kind

434
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:34,340
of investigation came to light.

435
00:36:34,340 --> 00:36:36,620
Around the time I moved to the Bay Area,

436
00:36:36,620 --> 00:36:39,300
so that was like 2019.

437
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:43,420
And I remember seeing the footage and I actually,

438
00:36:43,420 --> 00:36:46,220
I was, that was one of the times that I was triggered

439
00:36:46,220 --> 00:36:49,100
into sort of one of my, I'm never really sure

440
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:49,940
how to describe it.

441
00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:51,420
I guess it's kind of a panic attack,

442
00:36:51,420 --> 00:36:55,100
but from my PTSD, like watching it and stuff

443
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:57,820
and all of a sudden being like, oh God, oh God, oh God,

444
00:36:57,820 --> 00:37:01,500
like I'm here again and having a lot of trouble

445
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:03,540
trying to sort of tell myself you're safe,

446
00:37:03,540 --> 00:37:04,580
you're not there.

447
00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:10,060
And cause it was just, and it was interesting too.

448
00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:13,620
I mean, side note, but I just remember of course,

449
00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:16,060
what the university was saying, which is,

450
00:37:16,060 --> 00:37:21,060
things were taken out of context and this is not,

451
00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:23,900
this was just one case or this was just one monkey

452
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:24,940
or blah, blah, blah.

453
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:29,940
And for someone who has been in these labs

454
00:37:29,980 --> 00:37:32,900
and see like, I don't know how any of that could be taken

455
00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:33,820
out of context.

456
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:35,420
These are their lives.

457
00:37:35,420 --> 00:37:39,100
Like there were times where I would walk into rooms

458
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:40,860
and even as the caretaker,

459
00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:46,580
baby monkeys would cower like holding each other

460
00:37:46,580 --> 00:37:49,700
in the corner of their cages because they don't necessarily,

461
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:51,140
they can't necessarily tell us apart.

462
00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:53,460
They don't know who the researcher is versus me.

463
00:37:53,460 --> 00:37:55,540
And it's not like I didn't have to do things

464
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:58,540
that were scary, like if a monkey needed a shot

465
00:37:58,540 --> 00:38:03,540
because diarrhea was so common, they like all had diarrhea

466
00:38:03,740 --> 00:38:06,140
because they're stressed.

467
00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:08,180
And so we're like constantly treating them

468
00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:10,060
and this is stressful.

469
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:13,540
And it's just this cycle of what happens

470
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:18,540
when you keep animals like this in such a natural,

471
00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:20,140
frightening environments.

472
00:38:20,140 --> 00:38:24,180
When did you start realizing that there is something

473
00:38:24,180 --> 00:38:26,740
incredibly wrong with this place?

474
00:38:29,860 --> 00:38:33,380
I mean, I think there's like different sort of,

475
00:38:34,780 --> 00:38:36,900
there's like flashes of different memories.

476
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:40,140
And yeah, I always like to include the fact that

477
00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:44,140
unfortunately to protect myself

478
00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:46,540
and I kind of learned sort of this later on

479
00:38:46,540 --> 00:38:48,500
that this is very natural with trauma,

480
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:51,420
but I suppressed a lot of my memories.

481
00:38:51,420 --> 00:38:54,420
So, for someone who was there for two years,

482
00:38:54,420 --> 00:38:58,620
about 10 to 12 hours a week, I don't have,

483
00:38:58,620 --> 00:39:03,300
there's not a lot there because of how upsetting it was,

484
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:06,460
but there's different things that sort of kind of were

485
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:09,260
raising alarm bells, I would say,

486
00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:10,620
if that's the right phrase.

487
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:16,180
One of which was on one of the first days.

488
00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:18,700
And again, this wasn't the sort of like, get me out of here,

489
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:23,340
but this was an immediate kind of realization that

490
00:39:25,940 --> 00:39:27,220
I was uncomfortable.

491
00:39:27,220 --> 00:39:30,420
And what happened was is that I was brought into,

492
00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:33,900
there's only one room in this whole facility

493
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:37,820
where there was like groups living together.

494
00:39:37,820 --> 00:39:40,700
And it was like, there would be like one big breeder male

495
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:44,420
and then like some younger or some like females

496
00:39:44,420 --> 00:39:45,900
and maybe some younger males.

497
00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:48,980
And it was like this kind of smaller breeding colony.

498
00:39:48,980 --> 00:39:51,540
But they're basically in like a giant cage.

499
00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:54,140
Like it's not like what I described at OHSU,

500
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:55,980
like with this outdoor thing,

501
00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:59,420
it was just like a larger giant cage.

502
00:39:59,420 --> 00:40:02,060
Sometimes there'd be like feces piling up on the floor

503
00:40:02,060 --> 00:40:04,260
because the drain is full and it's like dark,

504
00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:05,340
the lighting's not great.

505
00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:08,500
I mean, it's still, again, just this giant cage.

506
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:13,340
There were like, I think there were eight cages

507
00:40:13,340 --> 00:40:17,420
if I'm remembering properly, but don't quote me on it.

508
00:40:19,740 --> 00:40:22,260
And that was the first room with primates

509
00:40:22,260 --> 00:40:23,820
that I was brought into,

510
00:40:23,820 --> 00:40:25,700
which again, I think is very deliberate.

511
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:28,940
It's like, oh, look, it's kind of like a family.

512
00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:34,140
And I was being taught by my boss

513
00:40:34,140 --> 00:40:36,620
how to give them the treats that they're allowed to have,

514
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:37,700
which are peanuts.

515
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:40,820
We would roll, like we had these giant bins on wheels,

516
00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:43,980
like basically garbage bins that were just full with peanuts

517
00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:46,220
and you could give them a peanut.

518
00:40:46,220 --> 00:40:47,460
And we're garbed up.

519
00:40:47,460 --> 00:40:50,700
So we're in like, we've got like two layers of gloves,

520
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:52,100
like latex and vinyl.

521
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:55,380
We've got, we're in scrubs, we've got jackets,

522
00:40:55,380 --> 00:40:57,300
we've got a face shield, we've got a mask.

523
00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:01,620
We, it's actually so, when the pandemic hit

524
00:41:01,620 --> 00:41:04,540
and people were masking again,

525
00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:09,460
I had this like such a weird reaction to it,

526
00:41:09,460 --> 00:41:11,380
especially when I first put on the mask,

527
00:41:11,380 --> 00:41:13,700
because there's a certain smell.

528
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:17,300
And it, yeah, it was very strange

529
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:21,140
because it was the first time I'd really worn masks again.

530
00:41:21,140 --> 00:41:23,540
And it was triggering.

531
00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:25,020
It didn't keep me from wearing masks,

532
00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:27,740
but it was like this sort of like, oh God,

533
00:41:27,740 --> 00:41:30,380
suddenly like, I feel like I'm garbing up

534
00:41:30,380 --> 00:41:32,380
to go into the primate lab.

535
00:41:32,380 --> 00:41:33,460
Anyway, side note.

536
00:41:33,460 --> 00:41:38,460
But in this room, you know,

537
00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:40,940
she was showing me how to give the peanuts.

538
00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:43,420
And the thing is though, especially with primates,

539
00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:45,900
primates are very social animals.

540
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:48,820
They have like their own kind of hierarchy

541
00:41:48,820 --> 00:41:51,740
within their family groups or groups.

542
00:41:51,740 --> 00:41:55,900
And so what I was noticing is like, no, oh my God,

543
00:41:55,900 --> 00:41:57,980
like the peanuts, they were so excited.

544
00:41:57,980 --> 00:42:00,460
It was like the best thing that had happened to them.

545
00:42:00,460 --> 00:42:02,460
The fact that we were bringing these peanuts in,

546
00:42:02,460 --> 00:42:04,580
which in and of itself felt really depressing

547
00:42:04,580 --> 00:42:07,380
because it's like, oh, this is what you live for.

548
00:42:08,980 --> 00:42:10,940
You know, and then the fact that like,

549
00:42:10,940 --> 00:42:13,660
because of this like dominance hierarchy,

550
00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:16,220
some of them, it was really hard to get them peanuts

551
00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:18,580
because the more dominant ones would come

552
00:42:18,580 --> 00:42:20,220
and take all of the peanuts.

553
00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:22,380
And then I feel bad because I'm like, oh my God,

554
00:42:22,380 --> 00:42:23,500
I can't get you a peanut.

555
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:25,580
And how am I gonna get you a peanut?

556
00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:29,740
And so I'm sitting there like the power, you know,

557
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:33,060
the power difference of like me basically giving them

558
00:42:33,060 --> 00:42:37,140
peanuts and how like I get to leave this facility

559
00:42:37,140 --> 00:42:38,660
and they don't.

560
00:42:38,660 --> 00:42:42,540
The fact that like this thing that they're so excited about,

561
00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:46,460
I'm struggling to even make it fair in my brain

562
00:42:46,460 --> 00:42:50,380
to like get each one of them, you know, the treat.

563
00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:52,060
I mean, this was like, this would have been like

564
00:42:52,060 --> 00:42:55,500
the first day that I was working and I just was like,

565
00:42:57,100 --> 00:42:57,940
you know?

566
00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:02,460
Like, and so, you know, that happened and you know,

567
00:43:02,460 --> 00:43:04,460
more training takes place.

568
00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:08,420
I mean, another, I guess another thing where like stuff

569
00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:13,420
really sort of hit was when I was caring for the first

570
00:43:15,140 --> 00:43:19,620
like rejected newborn, the one, like the first one

571
00:43:19,620 --> 00:43:21,220
that I cared for on my own.

572
00:43:21,220 --> 00:43:24,220
So like after like, like I wasn't being trained.

573
00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:26,900
It was like, I came in after hours.

574
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:31,900
So because these newborns, sometimes I say things

575
00:43:32,060 --> 00:43:33,980
and I realize it's not like obvious to people,

576
00:43:33,980 --> 00:43:37,220
but basically what happens is these monkeys,

577
00:43:37,220 --> 00:43:38,700
this was a breeding facility.

578
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:40,780
So Harlow primate lab where I worked

579
00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:43,820
was also a breeding facility where they would ship monkeys

580
00:43:43,820 --> 00:43:46,740
all over the country to other facilities.

581
00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:50,340
And so, you know, monkeys, female monkeys

582
00:43:50,340 --> 00:43:51,740
would be put in with males.

583
00:43:51,740 --> 00:43:55,780
We'd be watching their ovulation cycles, you know,

584
00:43:55,780 --> 00:43:57,500
recording menses and stuff.

585
00:43:57,500 --> 00:44:00,180
And then they would be put in with some

586
00:44:00,180 --> 00:44:03,420
of these breeder males who lived alone,

587
00:44:03,420 --> 00:44:06,820
but would just have females coming and going basically.

588
00:44:06,820 --> 00:44:10,540
And, you know, oftentimes these monkeys,

589
00:44:10,540 --> 00:44:13,460
like the females wouldn't necessarily know these males

590
00:44:13,460 --> 00:44:14,620
and this can be really scary.

591
00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:15,620
It could lead to fights.

592
00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:17,940
It could lead to injuries.

593
00:44:17,940 --> 00:44:22,260
I remember hearing, I mean, yeah, these like,

594
00:44:22,260 --> 00:44:24,620
when those fights would take place and you'd come running

595
00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:27,340
because you'd hear the screams and see what, you know,

596
00:44:27,340 --> 00:44:28,620
what was the damage.

597
00:44:31,020 --> 00:44:33,340
You know, in nature, these animals are,

598
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:36,220
they have very large social groups

599
00:44:36,220 --> 00:44:37,540
where they're learning from each other

600
00:44:37,540 --> 00:44:40,180
and helping each other raise their babies.

601
00:44:40,180 --> 00:44:41,660
And this is very unnatural.

602
00:44:41,660 --> 00:44:43,820
So like all of a sudden you've got a young monkey

603
00:44:43,820 --> 00:44:46,580
who's never had a baby before, they have a baby

604
00:44:46,580 --> 00:44:48,300
and sometimes they don't know what to do with it.

605
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:51,180
And so they just, well, the way that we know

606
00:44:51,180 --> 00:44:53,260
they've rejected the babies if we walk in

607
00:44:53,260 --> 00:44:54,900
and the baby's on the floor,

608
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:57,060
like they're not holding the baby.

609
00:44:57,060 --> 00:44:59,980
And sometimes we're able to get the baby

610
00:44:59,980 --> 00:45:02,140
before something happens, but sometimes we walk in

611
00:45:02,140 --> 00:45:03,980
and it's too late and the baby's died.

612
00:45:05,820 --> 00:45:08,180
And it's not, you know, usually anything malicious

613
00:45:08,180 --> 00:45:09,020
from the mother.

614
00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:14,020
It's just that, you know, it's the situation they're in.

615
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:16,740
It's the environment they're in.

616
00:45:16,740 --> 00:45:19,340
And so with these rejected newborns,

617
00:45:19,340 --> 00:45:21,340
the idea was that we would care for them.

618
00:45:21,340 --> 00:45:22,580
We would syringe feed them.

619
00:45:22,580 --> 00:45:25,780
And then we would eventually cross foster them with a mom

620
00:45:25,780 --> 00:45:28,180
who typically had had a baby,

621
00:45:28,180 --> 00:45:30,060
but whose baby had been removed from them,

622
00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:33,140
which would usually happen at six to 12 months of age.

623
00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:35,860
Their babies would be taken.

624
00:45:35,860 --> 00:45:38,180
And so usually one of those moms at that point

625
00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:40,740
was so desperate to have her baby back

626
00:45:40,740 --> 00:45:43,900
that they would accept this baby to take care of.

627
00:45:45,140 --> 00:45:49,940
And so anyway, that brings us to St. Patrick's Day.

628
00:45:49,940 --> 00:45:54,700
I, you know, holidays were a day when the labs

629
00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:57,100
were very quiet and like, but like,

630
00:45:57,100 --> 00:45:59,740
if there was a rejected newborn who needed,

631
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:00,980
you know, multiple feedings.

632
00:46:00,980 --> 00:46:05,500
So I was coming in and taking care of this baby.

633
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:09,780
And, you know, especially with like no one around,

634
00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:12,060
it just felt like I was very much in my head

635
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:14,540
and looking down at these like big eyes.

636
00:46:14,540 --> 00:46:18,180
I mean, they're so little and they're so perfect.

637
00:46:18,180 --> 00:46:22,100
I mean, these adorable baby rhesus monkeys,

638
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:25,860
the way he like wrapped his hands or sorry, yeah,

639
00:46:25,860 --> 00:46:28,700
his arms around my, like the top part of my hand,

640
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:29,540
like my fingers,

641
00:46:29,540 --> 00:46:32,500
and then his legs were wrapped around my wrist.

642
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:34,340
And I would just like use the syringe

643
00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:37,340
with the other hand to feed him.

644
00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:40,020
And I just wanted to sit there and like comfort him

645
00:46:40,020 --> 00:46:45,020
and cuddle him and, you know, take care of him.

646
00:46:45,100 --> 00:46:47,260
And, you know, I wanted to give him a name

647
00:46:47,260 --> 00:46:48,740
because all of them just have name,

648
00:46:48,740 --> 00:46:53,740
like numbers, letters and numbers, AB 42 or whatever, AX 38.

649
00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:57,100
That was how they were referred to

650
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:59,980
in a facility where there's over 500 of them.

651
00:46:59,980 --> 00:47:01,820
And so I had given him the name Patrick

652
00:47:01,820 --> 00:47:03,020
because I'm not creative.

653
00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:08,460
And, you know, I'm sitting there thinking about Patrick

654
00:47:08,460 --> 00:47:11,340
and I'm thinking about the fact that like, you know,

655
00:47:11,340 --> 00:47:13,180
it's so nice to be able to take care of him.

656
00:47:13,180 --> 00:47:14,940
And, you know, even though he was rejected.

657
00:47:14,940 --> 00:47:17,420
And then there's this other part of me is like,

658
00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:18,860
would he be better off dead?

659
00:47:18,860 --> 00:47:20,380
What's gonna happen to him?

660
00:47:20,380 --> 00:47:21,980
Like, what happens after this?

661
00:47:21,980 --> 00:47:22,980
Like I take care of him.

662
00:47:22,980 --> 00:47:23,900
He's cross fostered.

663
00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:27,500
Then he's stolen from this mother who, you know,

664
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:28,780
shows him this love.

665
00:47:28,780 --> 00:47:31,940
And then, you know, I don't know what's gonna,

666
00:47:31,940 --> 00:47:33,380
I don't know what his future holds.

667
00:47:33,380 --> 00:47:36,420
And I, that was a turning point.

668
00:47:36,420 --> 00:47:38,740
And that would have been very early on

669
00:47:38,740 --> 00:47:40,820
in my hiring as well.

670
00:47:40,820 --> 00:47:45,820
And years later, you know, after I had left the lab,

671
00:47:48,020 --> 00:47:49,300
you know, he kind of,

672
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:52,260
and when I sort of was starting to come to this conclusion

673
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:57,020
of like, I need to take care of this part of me

674
00:47:57,020 --> 00:48:00,300
and figure out how I'm gonna deal with this,

675
00:48:01,660 --> 00:48:04,380
it felt really meaningful to get a tattoo

676
00:48:04,380 --> 00:48:06,180
that was for Patrick.

677
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:09,380
And so a lot of people have probably seen

678
00:48:09,380 --> 00:48:12,740
that like on my bicep,

679
00:48:12,740 --> 00:48:14,580
I have a tattoo that says for Patrick

680
00:48:14,580 --> 00:48:17,660
and it's kind of this like remembrance,

681
00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:21,660
this like sort of, yeah, reminder

682
00:48:21,660 --> 00:48:23,700
that everything I'm doing is for him

683
00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:28,620
and for the rest of these individuals that, you know,

684
00:48:28,620 --> 00:48:32,820
oftentimes go unnamed and unknown and, you know,

685
00:48:32,820 --> 00:48:35,140
just not remembered.

686
00:48:35,140 --> 00:48:39,420
I like the way that Joanne McArthur had put it,

687
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:40,940
like the ghosts in our machine.

688
00:48:42,980 --> 00:48:44,220
That's beautiful.

689
00:48:44,220 --> 00:48:47,900
And you did write about your experience in an op-ed.

690
00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:50,540
I will leave a link in the description for people.

691
00:48:50,540 --> 00:48:53,940
I highly recommend people read the op-ed.

692
00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:59,740
In that article, you also talk about another monkey

693
00:48:59,740 --> 00:49:03,020
and now I'm forgetting his name.

694
00:49:03,020 --> 00:49:04,900
Norm. Norm, yes.

695
00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:09,700
And how he was particularly affectionate towards humans.

696
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,140
Can you tell his story?

697
00:49:12,140 --> 00:49:13,580
Yeah. Yeah.

698
00:49:13,580 --> 00:49:17,580
So Norm was such a bizarre case

699
00:49:17,580 --> 00:49:20,340
because, you know, rhesus monkeys as a species,

700
00:49:20,340 --> 00:49:25,340
like they're, I mean, they're not like nice monkeys.

701
00:49:27,140 --> 00:49:28,820
I mean, I, you know, I think they're great

702
00:49:28,820 --> 00:49:30,940
and they're entitled to be who they are.

703
00:49:30,940 --> 00:49:33,460
That's just like who they are, but they're not like,

704
00:49:33,460 --> 00:49:38,460
it's very unusual for them to not just be sort of like chill

705
00:49:38,980 --> 00:49:42,300
but actually seek affection from humans.

706
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:45,820
Monkeys in general see eye contact as a threat

707
00:49:45,820 --> 00:49:49,860
and Norm didn't, or at least like he did,

708
00:49:49,860 --> 00:49:53,820
he could tell with us like whether or not

709
00:49:53,820 --> 00:49:55,540
that eye contact was a problem,

710
00:49:55,540 --> 00:49:57,780
whereas most would just see it and be like,

711
00:49:57,780 --> 00:49:58,860
you are threatening me.

712
00:49:58,860 --> 00:50:03,860
And so Norm I met again, like early on in my training

713
00:50:04,420 --> 00:50:08,980
because some of the other caretakers were showing me around

714
00:50:08,980 --> 00:50:12,460
and Norm was one of the only monkeys

715
00:50:12,460 --> 00:50:15,460
who at least on the caretaker side of things

716
00:50:15,460 --> 00:50:18,980
had a name that was given to him by like care staff.

717
00:50:18,980 --> 00:50:21,380
So this was not like me giving Patrick a name.

718
00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:24,700
This was like, he was known as Norm.

719
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:26,180
People like gave him a name

720
00:50:26,180 --> 00:50:29,260
because he had sort of made himself known.

721
00:50:29,260 --> 00:50:33,740
I mean, it was so hard to individualize these animals.

722
00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:36,700
They didn't want us to, it wasn't really preferred

723
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:38,420
because the more you individualize someone,

724
00:50:38,420 --> 00:50:41,900
the more you care about them, the more that, you know,

725
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:46,900
what you're doing seems to make you conflicted about it.

726
00:50:47,180 --> 00:50:52,180
So with Norm, Norm would, okay.

727
00:50:52,180 --> 00:50:55,500
So basically my caretaker, the other caretaker

728
00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:59,500
was showing me with Norm that he would come

729
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:04,500
and press his arm against the like mesh caging.

730
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:09,700
And then my coworker was using his fingers to groom Norm,

731
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:12,540
again, like with gloved hands,

732
00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:16,860
as if like what monkeys do, they groom each other.

733
00:51:16,860 --> 00:51:18,460
I mean, it's very natural behavior.

734
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:20,380
It's a soothing thing that they do.

735
00:51:20,380 --> 00:51:23,660
And he would seek that out from the caretakers.

736
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:26,820
And then my coworker put his arm,

737
00:51:26,820 --> 00:51:29,380
which was like jacketed against the mesh,

738
00:51:29,380 --> 00:51:31,780
and Norm would do the same thing back

739
00:51:31,780 --> 00:51:36,780
using his fingers to groom or, you know,

740
00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:41,420
something of that sort back to like back for the coworker.

741
00:51:42,740 --> 00:51:45,020
And so I quickly started doing that.

742
00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:46,460
And of course they were like, you know,

743
00:51:46,460 --> 00:51:47,580
don't tell anyone you're doing this.

744
00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:48,420
You're not supposed to do this.

745
00:51:48,420 --> 00:51:51,020
Like we're not, you know, especially cause these animals

746
00:51:51,020 --> 00:51:51,860
are very dangerous.

747
00:51:51,860 --> 00:51:54,460
I mean, I, you know, almost had a fingertip taken off.

748
00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:58,100
So like, this is not something where it's like, yes,

749
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,620
try to have this relationship with everybody,

750
00:52:00,620 --> 00:52:03,740
but Norm was Norm.

751
00:52:03,740 --> 00:52:06,540
And so he was just kind of like one of those

752
00:52:06,540 --> 00:52:11,540
where like brought some sort of joy in moments,

753
00:52:11,540 --> 00:52:15,220
like to just have that kind of relationship.

754
00:52:15,220 --> 00:52:20,220
And also sadness because it's like, why are you, yeah,

755
00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:24,140
like you're so trusting of us.

756
00:52:24,140 --> 00:52:26,900
And yet like we're the reason you're here

757
00:52:26,900 --> 00:52:28,940
and that this is your life.

758
00:52:28,940 --> 00:52:30,340
So again, there's so,

759
00:52:30,340 --> 00:52:32,740
there were so many conflicting feelings,

760
00:52:32,740 --> 00:52:37,740
but what ended up happening is that Norm was gone one day

761
00:52:39,140 --> 00:52:42,940
and I was like finally asked, where's Norm?

762
00:52:42,940 --> 00:52:47,940
And I was told that he was put into a research study

763
00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:51,820
specifically on alcohol where he was given

764
00:52:51,820 --> 00:52:55,460
unlimited access to alcohol.

765
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:58,620
And so what this meant was there were a few rooms

766
00:52:58,620 --> 00:53:02,460
where researchers had monkeys that we did not take care of.

767
00:53:02,460 --> 00:53:05,980
They were strictly under like research care.

768
00:53:05,980 --> 00:53:08,860
So he was now one of those.

769
00:53:08,860 --> 00:53:10,860
And so I never saw him again.

770
00:53:10,860 --> 00:53:12,740
I don't know what happened to him.

771
00:53:12,740 --> 00:53:15,340
I mean, I can imagine that if you're given

772
00:53:15,340 --> 00:53:20,340
unlimited access to alcohol and this is your life,

773
00:53:20,340 --> 00:53:21,860
it's hard for me to believe

774
00:53:21,860 --> 00:53:23,820
that he didn't like drink himself to death.

775
00:53:23,820 --> 00:53:28,820
I assume that if he didn't, they probably killed him to,

776
00:53:29,260 --> 00:53:32,460
I don't know, look at what the alcohol did to his body,

777
00:53:32,460 --> 00:53:33,540
to his brain.

778
00:53:36,380 --> 00:53:41,100
And I just, it's like so, this story,

779
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:45,060
it just always gets me because I just think about

780
00:53:47,060 --> 00:53:51,460
how the betrayal that he must have felt.

781
00:53:52,460 --> 00:53:56,940
And I'm not trying to say what an animal feels

782
00:53:56,940 --> 00:54:00,540
or get to, I don't know, make these assumptions,

783
00:54:00,540 --> 00:54:02,660
but I don't know.

784
00:54:03,660 --> 00:54:07,540
I know what my dog feels when I'm leaving her,

785
00:54:07,540 --> 00:54:10,860
like when I'm leaving to go do something

786
00:54:10,860 --> 00:54:12,460
where she's not coming along.

787
00:54:12,460 --> 00:54:15,580
And then it's like, I just, it's hard for me

788
00:54:16,540 --> 00:54:20,900
to not just feel heartbroken for him.

789
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:24,900
And also to wonder with the other staff

790
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:29,900
how they coped with that, knowing that he,

791
00:54:30,060 --> 00:54:33,180
we all sort of had this relationship with him

792
00:54:33,180 --> 00:54:34,900
that was pretty unique.

793
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:41,900
And do you feel bad for betraying him in that way?

794
00:54:42,180 --> 00:54:45,900
Because I do, I think about him all the time.

795
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:50,660
And yeah, it just, I wonder if he was doing that

796
00:54:50,660 --> 00:54:55,060
and he was still trying to get people to groom him

797
00:54:55,060 --> 00:55:00,060
while he was being allowed to drink himself to death.

798
00:55:00,260 --> 00:55:04,860
It's just, and then, and there's this whole,

799
00:55:04,860 --> 00:55:07,140
like emotional factor, and then there's just this logic

800
00:55:07,140 --> 00:55:09,260
factor of like, what?

801
00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:13,780
Like we can't, what do you need to know about this animal?

802
00:55:13,780 --> 00:55:16,100
Why does he need to be drinking this alcohol?

803
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:17,700
Why are you justifying this?

804
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:20,500
What can we do to help people who have,

805
00:55:21,860 --> 00:55:26,860
who are experiencing alcoholism that like doesn't require us

806
00:55:27,860 --> 00:55:32,340
to justify the use of this animal,

807
00:55:32,340 --> 00:55:33,580
the use of these animals,

808
00:55:33,580 --> 00:55:38,580
because I'm sure that like in any kind of,

809
00:55:39,180 --> 00:55:40,980
like any other sort of issue,

810
00:55:40,980 --> 00:55:42,700
it's like there's a bunch of resources

811
00:55:42,700 --> 00:55:46,500
that people need access to that they don't have access to,

812
00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:50,340
that financially, things could change for them.

813
00:55:50,340 --> 00:55:55,340
And yet the way we're using resources is to do this to Norm,

814
00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:58,540
to do this to individuals like Norm.

815
00:55:58,540 --> 00:56:02,220
It's just like, it's mind blowing.

816
00:56:02,220 --> 00:56:06,580
And again, it's, how do we justify this?

817
00:56:06,580 --> 00:56:11,260
So Maddie, after hearing all of those gruesome details

818
00:56:11,260 --> 00:56:14,860
about what happened in that lab

819
00:56:14,860 --> 00:56:18,220
and just the violence of that place,

820
00:56:19,220 --> 00:56:22,940
the question that comes to mind naturally is,

821
00:56:22,940 --> 00:56:24,140
why did you stay?

822
00:56:25,740 --> 00:56:26,580
Yeah.

823
00:56:27,780 --> 00:56:30,140
So yeah, I think I kind of briefly touched on this,

824
00:56:30,140 --> 00:56:34,180
but I would say there were like two main factors.

825
00:56:34,180 --> 00:56:38,380
One being that I genuinely cared for these animals.

826
00:56:38,380 --> 00:56:41,180
And I'm sure some of that was guilt.

827
00:56:43,620 --> 00:56:46,260
Some of that is just the animal lover in me.

828
00:56:46,260 --> 00:56:47,740
I wanted to take care of them.

829
00:56:47,740 --> 00:56:49,980
I wanted to do whatever I could

830
00:56:49,980 --> 00:56:54,060
to make their lives a little better,

831
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:57,660
or maybe it's more better to say less bad.

832
00:56:57,660 --> 00:57:01,740
So there was that.

833
00:57:01,740 --> 00:57:05,620
I also felt like I had made a commitment.

834
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:09,700
And I really, especially at that point in my life,

835
00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:13,940
had issues with like disappointing people.

836
00:57:16,380 --> 00:57:18,860
So I felt like I made that commitment.

837
00:57:18,860 --> 00:57:22,940
I felt like I needed that experience still

838
00:57:22,940 --> 00:57:24,660
to get from point A to point B.

839
00:57:24,660 --> 00:57:28,060
I don't know, in my brain, it just was like,

840
00:57:28,060 --> 00:57:29,020
I'm just like, oh my God,

841
00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:30,940
if I don't get a good letter of recommendation,

842
00:57:30,940 --> 00:57:32,980
what happens to me?

843
00:57:32,980 --> 00:57:35,700
As if my life would have been over.

844
00:57:35,700 --> 00:57:38,420
But in your early 20s,

845
00:57:40,140 --> 00:57:43,060
this was my first job that wasn't babysitting.

846
00:57:43,060 --> 00:57:44,500
Which like babysitting was a big deal.

847
00:57:44,500 --> 00:57:46,380
I think it's not like,

848
00:57:46,380 --> 00:57:47,620
people sometimes don't see it

849
00:57:47,620 --> 00:57:50,460
as the responsibility it really is,

850
00:57:50,460 --> 00:57:54,420
but it's still different than where you're hired

851
00:57:54,420 --> 00:57:56,740
for a facility, your signing documents,

852
00:57:56,740 --> 00:57:58,260
your, you know, like it just,

853
00:57:58,260 --> 00:58:01,700
this was my first like, felt like grownup job.

854
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:05,540
And it felt like everything depended on it.

855
00:58:06,620 --> 00:58:08,500
And I realize now that's very silly.

856
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:12,380
But I also can see that at that time in my life,

857
00:58:12,380 --> 00:58:14,540
when I was a young impressionable person

858
00:58:14,540 --> 00:58:18,100
who felt like authority is authority

859
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:20,860
because they deserve to be authority.

860
00:58:20,860 --> 00:58:24,740
Not necessarily because,

861
00:58:24,740 --> 00:58:26,740
well, they actually deserve to be authority

862
00:58:26,740 --> 00:58:31,740
or know everything or, you know, whatever that is.

863
00:58:32,060 --> 00:58:37,060
So yeah, it was the combination that kind of kept me there.

864
00:58:37,620 --> 00:58:41,940
I felt like if I left, someone else just takes my place

865
00:58:41,940 --> 00:58:44,780
and what if they don't care as much?

866
00:58:44,780 --> 00:58:46,380
And I've talked to other lab workers

867
00:58:46,380 --> 00:58:48,700
and that especially like people who have worked

868
00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:50,460
in the care side of things,

869
00:58:50,460 --> 00:58:52,820
as opposed to research.

870
00:58:52,820 --> 00:58:54,980
And that seems to be a pretty common thing.

871
00:58:54,980 --> 00:58:56,060
A lot of people, you know,

872
00:58:56,060 --> 00:58:58,060
if they're going into animal care,

873
00:58:58,060 --> 00:58:59,900
they're doing it because on some level,

874
00:58:59,900 --> 00:59:02,060
they really care about animals.

875
00:59:02,060 --> 00:59:05,580
They're not there because they want to harm animals.

876
00:59:05,580 --> 00:59:09,420
This is their chance, like you said, with the pet store,

877
00:59:09,420 --> 00:59:12,260
this is their chance to be around animals.

878
00:59:14,100 --> 00:59:17,420
And yeah, I think we just end up sort of trying

879
00:59:17,420 --> 00:59:19,060
to figure out how to cope with that.

880
00:59:19,060 --> 00:59:22,340
Some of that is dissociating, shutting down.

881
00:59:22,340 --> 00:59:24,580
Like I really felt like in college

882
00:59:24,580 --> 00:59:26,900
that I lived two different lives.

883
00:59:26,900 --> 00:59:29,540
I mean, there's so much I remember

884
00:59:29,540 --> 00:59:32,140
about the rest of my life in college.

885
00:59:32,140 --> 00:59:33,900
And then it was like, when I was in the lab,

886
00:59:33,900 --> 00:59:35,700
it was like a different world.

887
00:59:36,700 --> 00:59:39,860
But you were also manipulated.

888
00:59:39,860 --> 00:59:42,660
I mean, again, you were very young.

889
00:59:42,660 --> 00:59:43,700
How old were you?

890
00:59:45,180 --> 00:59:47,020
So I would have been,

891
00:59:47,020 --> 00:59:51,060
let me start, like 20,

892
00:59:51,060 --> 00:59:56,060
20, wait, I graduated in 20, 21, 22?

893
00:59:56,980 --> 00:59:58,420
21, 22?

894
00:59:58,420 --> 00:59:59,820
That's young, that's very young.

895
00:59:59,820 --> 01:00:02,180
Yeah, like 20, 21, 22, yeah.

896
01:00:02,180 --> 01:00:03,460
No, I mean, it's really young,

897
01:00:03,460 --> 01:00:06,900
especially like now being in, you know,

898
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:09,460
being almost 34, I'm like,

899
01:00:09,460 --> 01:00:11,940
when I talk to college students, I'm like,

900
01:00:12,940 --> 01:00:14,180
that's so young.

901
01:00:14,180 --> 01:00:17,220
And this is your first experience usually,

902
01:00:17,220 --> 01:00:19,300
for the most part, like away from, you know,

903
01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:21,300
your parents, away from your guardians,

904
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:25,820
like on your own, being impacted very intensely

905
01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:27,500
by whoever you're surrounded with,

906
01:00:27,500 --> 01:00:29,140
whoever that community is.

907
01:00:31,220 --> 01:00:36,220
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's no real surprise to me,

908
01:00:36,500 --> 01:00:40,740
like now that I kind of am more understanding community

909
01:00:40,740 --> 01:00:42,980
and dynamics and just like society

910
01:00:42,980 --> 01:00:45,460
and how systems function that like,

911
01:00:46,820 --> 01:00:51,820
it's also very, very intelligent of them

912
01:00:51,940 --> 01:00:53,940
to get people in at such a young age.

913
01:00:55,580 --> 01:00:56,700
A young age?

914
01:00:56,700 --> 01:01:00,460
And then they must have picked up on, you know,

915
01:01:00,460 --> 01:01:03,460
your kind of personality, you know,

916
01:01:03,460 --> 01:01:05,100
that you're a people pleaser.

917
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:08,420
Obedient and likes to follow rules

918
01:01:08,420 --> 01:01:13,420
and is very like cares a lot about how others view you.

919
01:01:15,660 --> 01:01:17,060
And so you want to obey,

920
01:01:17,060 --> 01:01:20,020
you want to succeed at whatever they want you to do.

921
01:01:20,980 --> 01:01:24,820
And they must have had a prior experience,

922
01:01:24,820 --> 01:01:28,020
maybe stretching out decades of experience

923
01:01:28,020 --> 01:01:32,580
with other workers and they must have learned, you know,

924
01:01:32,580 --> 01:01:37,580
how to keep those workers in the lab to, you know,

925
01:01:37,580 --> 01:01:42,580
not make them, to not make them realize

926
01:01:42,820 --> 01:01:45,580
what kind of place it is and to keep them longer.

927
01:01:46,540 --> 01:01:49,100
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think you,

928
01:01:49,100 --> 01:01:54,100
a lot of people, you either learn to like compartmentalize

929
01:01:58,420 --> 01:02:00,220
or you have to get out.

930
01:02:01,860 --> 01:02:04,380
And so, you know, the longer you're there,

931
01:02:04,380 --> 01:02:06,580
the longer you're kind of figuring out

932
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:09,660
how to just separate these things

933
01:02:09,660 --> 01:02:13,060
and the easier it's going to get

934
01:02:13,060 --> 01:02:15,260
because you're kind of shutting down,

935
01:02:15,260 --> 01:02:17,420
like you're mentally shutting down.

936
01:02:17,420 --> 01:02:22,180
I mean, I would even during my two years there,

937
01:02:22,180 --> 01:02:24,860
I remember like on the weekends when it was like,

938
01:02:25,740 --> 01:02:27,820
it would be two of us student caretakers

939
01:02:27,820 --> 01:02:30,460
in charge of all 500 plus monkeys,

940
01:02:30,460 --> 01:02:34,140
like the feeding, the health checks, medications,

941
01:02:34,140 --> 01:02:36,660
and then hosing down all of the enclosures.

942
01:02:36,660 --> 01:02:40,460
The hosing down part, like I always had headphones in.

943
01:02:41,460 --> 01:02:42,460
This was when,

944
01:02:44,580 --> 01:02:46,180
Rolling in the Deep, Adele's album,

945
01:02:46,180 --> 01:02:48,500
that album from Adele had come out.

946
01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:50,260
I listened to that album on repeat.

947
01:02:50,260 --> 01:02:52,060
It's like now when I listened to that album,

948
01:02:52,060 --> 01:02:55,020
I almost, or like any of those songs,

949
01:02:55,020 --> 01:02:56,860
it's actually kind of triggering to me

950
01:02:56,860 --> 01:03:01,660
because I listened to it so nonstop

951
01:03:01,660 --> 01:03:03,700
when I would be cleaning.

952
01:03:03,700 --> 01:03:05,740
And it was, but it allowed me,

953
01:03:05,740 --> 01:03:07,380
like it's like, I'm just like hosing down.

954
01:03:07,380 --> 01:03:10,340
I'm able to just like not even pay attention

955
01:03:10,340 --> 01:03:13,420
to the fact that these individuals

956
01:03:13,420 --> 01:03:16,380
are just sitting here day after day, you know?

957
01:03:16,380 --> 01:03:18,900
Like, what do they have to do?

958
01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:19,980
Literally nothing.

959
01:03:21,740 --> 01:03:25,020
So like we learned to do things, to disconnect,

960
01:03:25,020 --> 01:03:29,340
to sort of make it easier to survive.

961
01:03:30,340 --> 01:03:32,220
Let's talk about the researchers.

962
01:03:32,220 --> 01:03:36,020
Did you consider them your colleagues

963
01:03:36,020 --> 01:03:39,500
or like your superiors?

964
01:03:41,340 --> 01:03:43,780
It was, in my experience at this lab,

965
01:03:43,780 --> 01:03:45,260
it was very separate.

966
01:03:46,180 --> 01:03:49,620
Like, he rarely came in contact with anyone

967
01:03:49,620 --> 01:03:51,060
who was doing research.

968
01:03:51,060 --> 01:03:54,940
And there was very much this kind of us and them mentality

969
01:03:56,740 --> 01:03:59,100
that like I just like felt existed

970
01:03:59,100 --> 01:04:04,100
where it was almost like we were often feeling

971
01:04:04,940 --> 01:04:06,700
like we were in the way of the researchers,

972
01:04:06,700 --> 01:04:10,260
even though our job was to take care of the monkeys

973
01:04:10,260 --> 01:04:13,860
and keep them, you know, as healthy as possible

974
01:04:13,860 --> 01:04:16,500
or whatever for the researchers.

975
01:04:17,620 --> 01:04:19,780
So it was a little strange.

976
01:04:20,860 --> 01:04:22,740
And, you know, again, the more that I've talked

977
01:04:22,740 --> 01:04:25,300
to some other individuals who have been in labs

978
01:04:25,300 --> 01:04:26,580
and have been in different positions,

979
01:04:26,580 --> 01:04:27,780
I've heard similar things,

980
01:04:27,780 --> 01:04:30,100
whether it's from the researcher side of thing or caretaker

981
01:04:30,100 --> 01:04:33,700
where it's like these two kind of groups

982
01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:35,380
are sort of separated from each other.

983
01:04:35,380 --> 01:04:38,140
There's not a lot of interaction,

984
01:04:38,140 --> 01:04:39,700
which I think is really fascinating

985
01:04:39,700 --> 01:04:42,580
and also probably very deliberate.

986
01:04:42,580 --> 01:04:44,220
You know, yeah, I don't, I mean,

987
01:04:44,220 --> 01:04:49,100
I rarely interacted with any of them.

988
01:04:49,100 --> 01:04:51,180
And even if I was around them,

989
01:04:51,180 --> 01:04:54,300
it was more like I'm there in the peripheral

990
01:04:54,300 --> 01:04:56,380
and they're doing their thing.

991
01:04:56,380 --> 01:04:59,700
So. And how did you perceive them?

992
01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:03,980
You know, did you think, are they feeling the same way I do?

993
01:05:03,980 --> 01:05:08,580
Honestly, I mean, it was interesting

994
01:05:08,580 --> 01:05:10,780
because like the students I wondered about,

995
01:05:10,780 --> 01:05:15,660
I think the like, you know, the more like senior people,

996
01:05:15,660 --> 01:05:18,460
like I guess grown adults, whatever,

997
01:05:21,100 --> 01:05:23,460
you know, I was a little intimidated by

998
01:05:23,460 --> 01:05:26,100
and just sort of like, I don't know,

999
01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:27,420
I felt like I had to like keep quiet

1000
01:05:27,420 --> 01:05:28,300
and just set my head down

1001
01:05:28,300 --> 01:05:29,980
and like do what you're supposed to do.

1002
01:05:29,980 --> 01:05:32,380
Like I was nervous.

1003
01:05:33,940 --> 01:05:38,860
The one interaction that I remember very clearly

1004
01:05:40,340 --> 01:05:45,340
where I was around what I assumed to be a researcher

1005
01:05:46,220 --> 01:05:47,460
and they're like assistant,

1006
01:05:47,460 --> 01:05:50,780
again, I don't know who these two individuals were,

1007
01:05:50,780 --> 01:05:52,580
could not pick them out of a lineup.

1008
01:05:52,580 --> 01:05:57,580
But I was in like a kitchen type area

1009
01:05:58,100 --> 01:06:00,860
preparing medications for the weekend

1010
01:06:00,860 --> 01:06:03,900
because there were some we could prepare ahead of time.

1011
01:06:03,900 --> 01:06:07,780
And so I actually even, I think I had headphones in,

1012
01:06:07,780 --> 01:06:11,140
like I was sitting there, like had my back turned doing that

1013
01:06:11,140 --> 01:06:16,140
and they had come in, they were carrying a mother monkey,

1014
01:06:17,780 --> 01:06:19,020
there was a carrying cage.

1015
01:06:19,020 --> 01:06:21,140
So it's like this metal container

1016
01:06:21,140 --> 01:06:22,940
with these tiny little holes in it.

1017
01:06:22,940 --> 01:06:24,820
And that is how we would transport the monkeys

1018
01:06:24,820 --> 01:06:26,100
around the lab.

1019
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:30,820
And they had the carrying cage,

1020
01:06:30,820 --> 01:06:33,980
usually like it sits vertically on the ground,

1021
01:06:33,980 --> 01:06:35,740
or sorry, horizontally on the ground.

1022
01:06:35,740 --> 01:06:40,380
So like, you know, it opens and it's closer to the ground,

1023
01:06:40,380 --> 01:06:42,500
but they had it tilted so it was vertical

1024
01:06:42,500 --> 01:06:45,980
so that like the opening was facing upwards.

1025
01:06:45,980 --> 01:06:50,980
And they had reached in and taken the newborn

1026
01:06:51,820 --> 01:06:54,700
from the mother who was in there and, you know,

1027
01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:58,740
closed it because they were going to be tattooing

1028
01:06:58,740 --> 01:07:00,900
the newborn's ear,

1029
01:07:00,900 --> 01:07:04,220
because that's like how you, yeah,

1030
01:07:05,860 --> 01:07:08,260
kept track of who they were, they were tattooed.

1031
01:07:09,820 --> 01:07:13,380
And the mother was screaming in the cage.

1032
01:07:13,380 --> 01:07:18,220
And I mean, you and I would say, of course,

1033
01:07:18,220 --> 01:07:20,740
like, you know, my baby was just ripped from me.

1034
01:07:20,740 --> 01:07:22,900
This is, what are you doing with my baby?

1035
01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:24,300
Where are you going with them?

1036
01:07:24,300 --> 01:07:26,060
And especially like the baby's crying,

1037
01:07:26,060 --> 01:07:27,620
you can hear your baby crying.

1038
01:07:30,220 --> 01:07:35,220
And I, you know, like it was obviously very upsetting,

1039
01:07:35,980 --> 01:07:37,380
but I'm just kinda like, you know,

1040
01:07:37,380 --> 01:07:38,580
keep doing what I'm doing.

1041
01:07:38,580 --> 01:07:42,660
And then I turn around and I see one of them

1042
01:07:42,660 --> 01:07:46,940
kind of nudge the crate with their foot and say,

1043
01:07:46,940 --> 01:07:48,300
oh, calm down.

1044
01:07:49,620 --> 01:07:52,700
And I just remember in that instant,

1045
01:07:54,980 --> 01:07:56,780
I think I was like taking deep breaths

1046
01:07:56,780 --> 01:08:01,780
because like I wanted to turn around and just start.

1047
01:08:02,140 --> 01:08:06,700
And I knew that if I did that, all of a sudden,

1048
01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:09,220
I am labeled an animal activist.

1049
01:08:09,220 --> 01:08:11,620
And even though like, it's like, oh my God,

1050
01:08:11,620 --> 01:08:13,700
it should be so obvious why they're freaking out.

1051
01:08:13,700 --> 01:08:15,740
And like, can you have a little compassion

1052
01:08:15,740 --> 01:08:19,460
for what these animals are experiencing right now?

1053
01:08:19,460 --> 01:08:22,060
Like they don't know that they're gonna be reunited

1054
01:08:22,060 --> 01:08:25,340
in a second and also their whole history of being here

1055
01:08:25,340 --> 01:08:26,700
and what that's been like, like,

1056
01:08:26,700 --> 01:08:29,500
can we take their perspective for like a half a second?

1057
01:08:31,540 --> 01:08:34,540
So that was really frustrating.

1058
01:08:34,540 --> 01:08:39,380
And that's, you know, one of my only experiences.

1059
01:08:39,380 --> 01:08:44,340
And, you know, I say that and I am very upset by it.

1060
01:08:44,340 --> 01:08:49,260
And also I am the person who is fiercely,

1061
01:08:51,140 --> 01:08:53,300
I don't know, advocating for people

1062
01:08:53,300 --> 01:08:55,740
to stop demonizing people in labs.

1063
01:08:55,740 --> 01:08:59,540
Because on some level, there is like,

1064
01:08:59,540 --> 01:09:02,300
this is not just like, oh, it's a bunch of bad people

1065
01:09:02,300 --> 01:09:04,340
doing bad things.

1066
01:09:04,340 --> 01:09:07,500
There is a system, a very powerful system in place.

1067
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:09,180
I'm not saying that there's no agency.

1068
01:09:09,180 --> 01:09:12,700
There is agency, but it's just not as black and white

1069
01:09:12,700 --> 01:09:14,660
as people want it to be.

1070
01:09:14,660 --> 01:09:18,900
And it's not to say that there aren't also some researchers

1071
01:09:18,900 --> 01:09:21,620
who are doing just horrific things.

1072
01:09:21,620 --> 01:09:26,420
And like, I completely understand the anger

1073
01:09:26,420 --> 01:09:28,820
that comes especially from activists who are like,

1074
01:09:28,820 --> 01:09:31,140
how could you do this?

1075
01:09:31,140 --> 01:09:33,420
You know, like I get that.

1076
01:09:33,420 --> 01:09:37,420
But my thing is, is like, I see what has happened

1077
01:09:37,420 --> 01:09:41,140
from being able to connect with individuals

1078
01:09:41,140 --> 01:09:44,820
and see that there's actually a large number of us

1079
01:09:44,820 --> 01:09:49,820
who are not, you know, we're not just like cruel

1080
01:09:50,220 --> 01:09:51,500
and hate these animals.

1081
01:09:51,500 --> 01:09:53,540
Like, and there's people who are starting

1082
01:09:53,540 --> 01:09:56,100
to think differently, even when they're in the lab

1083
01:09:56,100 --> 01:09:58,100
and even when they seem like they aren't,

1084
01:09:58,100 --> 01:10:00,340
but they're feeling pressure from others

1085
01:10:00,340 --> 01:10:04,620
to act a certain way or to say certain things.

1086
01:10:04,620 --> 01:10:08,540
And I just, I, so like the reason that I'm going into this

1087
01:10:08,540 --> 01:10:11,540
is because I don't wanna say like, these are bad people

1088
01:10:11,540 --> 01:10:14,820
or, you know, I have this hatred towards them.

1089
01:10:14,820 --> 01:10:17,620
I was so angry with what took place.

1090
01:10:18,420 --> 01:10:22,660
And also like, I have no idea what those two are doing any,

1091
01:10:22,660 --> 01:10:25,260
like today, you know, I don't know what like,

1092
01:10:26,540 --> 01:10:29,420
one of those individuals could have decided

1093
01:10:29,420 --> 01:10:33,100
or be in the process of deciding that like, wow,

1094
01:10:33,100 --> 01:10:35,020
I don't know what I was doing,

1095
01:10:35,020 --> 01:10:38,980
because I did things I wasn't proud of in the lab.

1096
01:10:38,980 --> 01:10:42,900
I mean, truthfully, and things that like,

1097
01:10:42,900 --> 01:10:47,060
where I even felt like, like this feels like,

1098
01:10:47,060 --> 01:10:48,980
like I'm a monster,

1099
01:10:48,980 --> 01:10:50,900
but I'm never gonna call someone a monster.

1100
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:54,460
Like we, those of us who are coming out of this,

1101
01:10:54,460 --> 01:10:57,540
who have had this experience and are like working through it,

1102
01:10:57,540 --> 01:11:01,020
we know, like we feel the guilt,

1103
01:11:01,020 --> 01:11:03,980
we feel those feelings of being a monster

1104
01:11:03,980 --> 01:11:06,180
and like someone else telling you that

1105
01:11:06,180 --> 01:11:08,180
doesn't make you wanna change.

1106
01:11:08,180 --> 01:11:11,820
So I don't know, my whole point here is just that like,

1107
01:11:13,420 --> 01:11:16,300
my experience, you know, that experience wasn't great,

1108
01:11:16,300 --> 01:11:20,260
but it's not like it made me define who everybody is

1109
01:11:20,260 --> 01:11:23,260
in a lab, let alone like all researchers or something.

1110
01:11:23,260 --> 01:11:27,260
Like I just, I think that,

1111
01:11:27,260 --> 01:11:29,620
I think there's like power dynamics at play

1112
01:11:29,620 --> 01:11:31,220
and in this industry,

1113
01:11:31,220 --> 01:11:35,340
and it really encourages people

1114
01:11:35,340 --> 01:11:37,540
to shut down their compassion.

1115
01:11:38,580 --> 01:11:43,580
I mean, going back to the vegan reality

1116
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:47,220
in a world where people are eating corpses,

1117
01:11:47,220 --> 01:11:49,180
what do you expect?

1118
01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,300
I mean, sure, you are an active participant

1119
01:11:53,300 --> 01:11:55,380
in the suffering of that animal

1120
01:11:55,380 --> 01:11:57,420
in the context of lab research.

1121
01:11:57,420 --> 01:11:59,500
At the same time, I'm thinking,

1122
01:12:00,940 --> 01:12:03,660
it would be amazing world.

1123
01:12:03,660 --> 01:12:08,660
Like some of the best guests I had on the podcast

1124
01:12:09,340 --> 01:12:12,340
were people who worked in the animal industry

1125
01:12:13,660 --> 01:12:18,660
and hearing their stories of seeing the light

1126
01:12:18,940 --> 01:12:22,260
and seeking like a form of redemption

1127
01:12:22,260 --> 01:12:27,260
and becoming those incredible animal rights activists,

1128
01:12:28,580 --> 01:12:32,380
just gave me so much energy, so much hope,

1129
01:12:32,380 --> 01:12:34,220
so much inspiration.

1130
01:12:35,820 --> 01:12:39,540
And I feel like the real victory

1131
01:12:39,540 --> 01:12:44,540
is not to lash out on those researchers to demonize them.

1132
01:12:45,660 --> 01:12:49,820
The real victory is to make them your allies,

1133
01:12:49,820 --> 01:12:52,620
is to make them see the light

1134
01:12:52,620 --> 01:12:57,620
and just gain them as fellow vegans

1135
01:12:57,660 --> 01:12:59,780
and fellow animal rights activists.

1136
01:13:00,620 --> 01:13:03,340
And that's the most beautiful thing we could be doing.

1137
01:13:05,020 --> 01:13:10,020
So yeah, it's a mix of comments and thoughts.

1138
01:13:10,300 --> 01:13:13,660
You know, I hear over and over again,

1139
01:13:13,660 --> 01:13:16,140
I just got a message from someone who had reached out

1140
01:13:16,140 --> 01:13:20,140
a couple of years ago again, who was congratulating me

1141
01:13:20,140 --> 01:13:23,740
on launching Justify as a nonprofit and saying, you know,

1142
01:13:25,300 --> 01:13:27,740
still working through some stuff emotionally,

1143
01:13:27,740 --> 01:13:30,340
but I would love to help if I can do anything.

1144
01:13:30,340 --> 01:13:35,340
And so it's really rewarding to see that this work

1145
01:13:36,140 --> 01:13:39,780
is resonating with people and making them feel

1146
01:13:39,780 --> 01:13:45,300
like there's a community for them that is safe.

1147
01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:50,300
You know, that just is sort of like what keeps me going

1148
01:13:50,300 --> 01:13:54,300
and what reminds me that what I'm doing matters.

1149
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:04,300
You know, I've recently had a PhD student

1150
01:14:04,300 --> 01:14:09,300
who contacted me, had actually found me through

1151
01:14:10,900 --> 01:14:13,300
my Washington Post feature,

1152
01:14:13,300 --> 01:14:16,300
which is a whole nother kind of side of things,

1153
01:14:16,300 --> 01:14:19,740
but having to do with a lawsuit related to free speech

1154
01:14:19,740 --> 01:14:23,380
related to my work in the animal labs.

1155
01:14:23,380 --> 01:14:25,980
And anyway, they had contacted me

1156
01:14:25,980 --> 01:14:30,180
because they wanted to talk about what it had been like,

1157
01:14:30,180 --> 01:14:32,620
what it was like doing working on their PhD.

1158
01:14:32,620 --> 01:14:37,620
Working on their PhD and working with animals in labs.

1159
01:14:39,060 --> 01:14:41,420
And I don't want to give away too much information

1160
01:14:41,420 --> 01:14:45,900
because it's, you know, I'm keeping, like,

1161
01:14:45,900 --> 01:14:48,220
some individuals that want to share their stories

1162
01:14:48,220 --> 01:14:51,020
and some are not ready to, and some may never want to,

1163
01:14:51,020 --> 01:14:53,540
and that is completely fine.

1164
01:14:53,540 --> 01:14:56,260
But I think this individual, you know,

1165
01:14:56,260 --> 01:15:00,580
is an example of someone who, you know,

1166
01:15:00,580 --> 01:15:04,700
is had this experience, started to question things,

1167
01:15:04,700 --> 01:15:06,900
started doing some Google searches

1168
01:15:06,900 --> 01:15:11,500
to look into like what was going on, somehow found me.

1169
01:15:11,500 --> 01:15:14,420
We had an hour and a half conversation

1170
01:15:14,420 --> 01:15:19,420
and is now continuing to chat with more members

1171
01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:24,500
of this community to get ideas on where to go from here.

1172
01:15:25,660 --> 01:15:28,740
And members of this community who, you know,

1173
01:15:28,740 --> 01:15:33,740
are not like necessarily sort of part of justify,

1174
01:15:33,900 --> 01:15:37,860
but are people whose work is adjacent.

1175
01:15:37,860 --> 01:15:42,660
So like someone like Dr. Aisha Akhtar,

1176
01:15:42,660 --> 01:15:46,060
the co-founder of Center for Contemporary Sciences,

1177
01:15:46,060 --> 01:15:49,740
big, you know, background in science.

1178
01:15:49,740 --> 01:15:52,740
And it was just like connecting them was great

1179
01:15:52,740 --> 01:15:56,100
because it's like, here's someone who has all of these ideas

1180
01:15:56,100 --> 01:15:59,620
of what you can still do in science,

1181
01:15:59,620 --> 01:16:03,020
but not be doing this, you know.

1182
01:16:03,020 --> 01:16:08,020
Similarly, I don't know if you're familiar with Richard,

1183
01:16:08,700 --> 01:16:11,460
Richard J. Miller, I want to grab the book,

1184
01:16:11,460 --> 01:16:12,860
but it's far away from me.

1185
01:16:13,860 --> 01:16:16,860
The rise and fall of animal experimentation.

1186
01:16:18,180 --> 01:16:20,260
He recently, I don't know,

1187
01:16:20,260 --> 01:16:22,500
just like I recently learned about him.

1188
01:16:22,500 --> 01:16:26,060
I think I found him through X, you know, now,

1189
01:16:26,060 --> 01:16:27,500
or previously Twitter.

1190
01:16:28,900 --> 01:16:32,300
He worked in animal research for like four decades,

1191
01:16:32,300 --> 01:16:34,900
over four decades and wrote this book

1192
01:16:34,900 --> 01:16:36,940
that just came out last year.

1193
01:16:36,940 --> 01:16:39,900
Fascinating read, highly recommend.

1194
01:16:39,900 --> 01:16:44,900
And, you know, really kind of goes into like the history

1195
01:16:45,900 --> 01:16:48,020
and kind of bringing up these questions

1196
01:16:48,020 --> 01:16:49,820
of is this what we should be doing now?

1197
01:16:49,820 --> 01:16:53,180
Like, is this really where our focus should be

1198
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:57,060
if we're trying to progress science and help humans.

1199
01:16:57,060 --> 01:16:59,260
And so being able to connect individuals

1200
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:03,300
within this community that they didn't even know existed

1201
01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:04,980
is amazing.

1202
01:17:04,980 --> 01:17:08,180
And I'm realizing as part of this work with justify,

1203
01:17:08,180 --> 01:17:12,340
it's not just about like, you know, your feelings are valid.

1204
01:17:12,340 --> 01:17:14,180
And like, I've had these experiences too,

1205
01:17:14,180 --> 01:17:17,380
and this is really hard, but it's also about like,

1206
01:17:17,380 --> 01:17:22,380
how can we empower you to, you know,

1207
01:17:22,460 --> 01:17:25,660
to not feel like you've just like lost this community,

1208
01:17:25,660 --> 01:17:28,660
lost this world that you thought you would be a part of,

1209
01:17:28,660 --> 01:17:29,860
or you thought you were doing,

1210
01:17:29,860 --> 01:17:33,140
and was, you know, supposed to work out and didn't,

1211
01:17:33,140 --> 01:17:37,820
because that can be really defeating, you know,

1212
01:17:37,820 --> 01:17:39,420
when it's everything you've known,

1213
01:17:39,420 --> 01:17:41,900
like that's what you thought you were gonna be doing,

1214
01:17:41,900 --> 01:17:45,540
and you really had no idea what it would be like.

1215
01:17:45,540 --> 01:17:48,340
Because you chose not to demonize them

1216
01:17:48,340 --> 01:17:51,300
and to provide them with a safe space,

1217
01:17:52,260 --> 01:17:55,180
you've gained some powerful allies

1218
01:17:55,180 --> 01:17:57,740
that know intimately this industry

1219
01:17:57,740 --> 01:18:00,660
and can then help you dismantle it, you know,

1220
01:18:00,660 --> 01:18:05,180
and this suffering, which is, you know,

1221
01:18:05,180 --> 01:18:08,300
from a strategic perspective in terms of activism,

1222
01:18:08,300 --> 01:18:10,220
it's wonderful, that's what we want.

1223
01:18:10,220 --> 01:18:15,220
Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it's true, and, you know,

1224
01:18:16,380 --> 01:18:21,220
I say that and I, yeah, I agree, it's extremely strategic,

1225
01:18:21,220 --> 01:18:25,060
but I also like, you know, it's important for me

1226
01:18:25,060 --> 01:18:28,900
to make it clear that it's not about being strategic for,

1227
01:18:28,900 --> 01:18:30,900
I mean, I think it's important, obviously,

1228
01:18:30,900 --> 01:18:32,580
like I care about these animals,

1229
01:18:32,580 --> 01:18:34,660
I don't want this to be happening to them.

1230
01:18:34,660 --> 01:18:37,180
I also consider myself a social justice activist,

1231
01:18:37,180 --> 01:18:38,660
a human rights activist.

1232
01:18:38,660 --> 01:18:42,500
I am sick of how this industry, you know,

1233
01:18:42,500 --> 01:18:44,060
uses all these resources

1234
01:18:44,060 --> 01:18:47,420
that could actually be helping people right now, you know,

1235
01:18:47,420 --> 01:18:51,900
like the NIH needs to figure out how to use funding

1236
01:18:51,900 --> 01:18:55,340
in a way that is better helping people today right now,

1237
01:18:55,340 --> 01:18:57,900
because that is possible, I know it is.

1238
01:18:57,900 --> 01:19:01,620
And so my point here is just that like, yes,

1239
01:19:01,620 --> 01:19:03,580
it is strategic, but also like,

1240
01:19:03,580 --> 01:19:05,980
I genuinely care about these individuals.

1241
01:19:05,980 --> 01:19:10,460
I am making some like fabulous connections and friendships

1242
01:19:11,820 --> 01:19:15,660
and just like growing my world and learning at the same time.

1243
01:19:15,660 --> 01:19:19,980
And I'm not doing this to try to create a bunch of people

1244
01:19:19,980 --> 01:19:21,860
who think exactly like me, you know,

1245
01:19:21,860 --> 01:19:24,420
a lot of the people I talk to are not animal activists,

1246
01:19:24,420 --> 01:19:27,740
they're not vegan, you know,

1247
01:19:27,740 --> 01:19:30,380
I mean, we can say everyone's pre-vegan or whatever,

1248
01:19:30,380 --> 01:19:31,740
but I don't think that's, you know,

1249
01:19:31,740 --> 01:19:34,460
like it's not that I don't think it would be great,

1250
01:19:34,460 --> 01:19:37,740
the less animals being harmed, the better, sure.

1251
01:19:37,740 --> 01:19:39,460
But I'm also like,

1252
01:19:39,460 --> 01:19:41,940
the more just of a world we can create, the better.

1253
01:19:41,940 --> 01:19:44,940
And that just, there's different ways to approach that.

1254
01:19:44,940 --> 01:19:49,340
And I, you know, when we write people off

1255
01:19:49,340 --> 01:19:51,340
because they're not exactly where we are,

1256
01:19:51,340 --> 01:19:54,420
it's just, it's a loss, it's a loss in general.

1257
01:19:54,420 --> 01:19:57,300
It's a loss for animals, but it's a loss for all of us,

1258
01:19:57,300 --> 01:19:59,020
because we can learn from each other

1259
01:19:59,020 --> 01:20:02,420
and really kind of make change together.

1260
01:20:02,420 --> 01:20:06,380
And I never want like with justify one thing

1261
01:20:06,380 --> 01:20:09,540
that I keep saying, and you know, I will say to donors,

1262
01:20:09,540 --> 01:20:11,980
I will say to anyone that like,

1263
01:20:11,980 --> 01:20:15,940
the last thing I'm gonna do is try to force anyone to talk.

1264
01:20:15,940 --> 01:20:19,340
I don't want any individuals from labs

1265
01:20:19,340 --> 01:20:22,260
to ever feel like my intention with them

1266
01:20:22,260 --> 01:20:24,140
is to like give them a mic.

1267
01:20:25,380 --> 01:20:28,700
If, and when they are ready, that is great.

1268
01:20:28,700 --> 01:20:30,460
And I definitely foresee it happening.

1269
01:20:30,460 --> 01:20:33,220
Like it's, I know that that will happen

1270
01:20:33,220 --> 01:20:34,300
with some individuals,

1271
01:20:34,300 --> 01:20:36,580
and I think that's wonderful and important,

1272
01:20:36,580 --> 01:20:39,260
but I don't want people to think like,

1273
01:20:39,260 --> 01:20:43,700
my end goal is forcing you to talk about this

1274
01:20:43,700 --> 01:20:45,580
or to say certain things,

1275
01:20:45,580 --> 01:20:47,340
because I want people to be honest.

1276
01:20:47,340 --> 01:20:52,300
I want them to, I think all of our experiences together

1277
01:20:52,300 --> 01:20:55,940
collectively can really invoke change.

1278
01:20:55,940 --> 01:20:58,980
And it doesn't need to be something where it's like curated

1279
01:20:58,980 --> 01:21:01,500
that we all have the same exact opinion.

1280
01:21:03,020 --> 01:21:04,900
This industry is very secretive

1281
01:21:04,900 --> 01:21:08,180
and the more variety of voices that we've got

1282
01:21:08,180 --> 01:21:10,740
coming together and just feeling supported by each other,

1283
01:21:10,740 --> 01:21:14,540
I think, you know, a lot of people go into animal research,

1284
01:21:14,540 --> 01:21:16,820
even if it's not like the animal care side of things,

1285
01:21:16,820 --> 01:21:18,460
I love animals, they're going into it

1286
01:21:18,460 --> 01:21:21,180
because usually they wanna help animals.

1287
01:21:21,180 --> 01:21:24,860
I mean, oh, or sorry, animals, humans,

1288
01:21:24,860 --> 01:21:28,420
like, you know, progress medicine, things like that,

1289
01:21:28,420 --> 01:21:29,860
because they do care.

1290
01:21:29,860 --> 01:21:31,300
I know that there's like, you know,

1291
01:21:31,300 --> 01:21:33,660
this whole system at play, especially with academia,

1292
01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:36,220
with like PhD work and this idea that like,

1293
01:21:36,220 --> 01:21:37,500
you have to come up with a question

1294
01:21:37,500 --> 01:21:39,020
and then you gotta answer that question,

1295
01:21:39,020 --> 01:21:41,580
and usually they want you to do animal testing.

1296
01:21:41,580 --> 01:21:46,460
So it's also very like interwoven into systems,

1297
01:21:47,300 --> 01:21:48,820
but I think that some of these individuals

1298
01:21:48,820 --> 01:21:50,220
are also seeing that too,

1299
01:21:50,220 --> 01:21:53,740
like they, and they wanna see like, how can we change that?

1300
01:21:53,740 --> 01:21:56,180
How can we stop having everything

1301
01:21:56,180 --> 01:21:58,260
lead back to animal testing?

1302
01:22:00,620 --> 01:22:03,060
You know, and I think that a lot of us,

1303
01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:06,660
even people who are pro animal research,

1304
01:22:06,660 --> 01:22:10,660
there is a level of the studies that take place

1305
01:22:10,660 --> 01:22:14,700
that we could probably all agree on should just be done,

1306
01:22:14,700 --> 01:22:16,100
should never take place again.

1307
01:22:16,100 --> 01:22:17,540
There are certain things where it's like,

1308
01:22:17,540 --> 01:22:19,980
we can agree that this is unnecessary.

1309
01:22:19,980 --> 01:22:23,100
So I think that there's points of meeting

1310
01:22:23,100 --> 01:22:28,100
that we can come together and yeah, I don't know.

1311
01:22:29,300 --> 01:22:32,060
I've just, I've really come to believe in this work

1312
01:22:32,060 --> 01:22:35,420
and I'm feeling a lot of support, which is great.

1313
01:22:36,820 --> 01:22:40,260
Honestly, some of the biggest criticisms so far,

1314
01:22:40,260 --> 01:22:42,420
I'm sure there will be some from the industry,

1315
01:22:42,420 --> 01:22:44,260
but some of the biggest criticism

1316
01:22:44,260 --> 01:22:45,780
is from animal rights activists,

1317
01:22:45,780 --> 01:22:47,380
which has always kind of been the case for me

1318
01:22:47,380 --> 01:22:51,380
because some people just can't figure out

1319
01:22:51,380 --> 01:22:55,100
how to, I don't know, empathize, understand

1320
01:22:55,100 --> 01:22:59,020
how I ended up in a lab despite everything I'm doing now.

1321
01:22:59,020 --> 01:23:03,740
But I think most, a good chunk of the community

1322
01:23:03,740 --> 01:23:05,740
is really supportive and realizes

1323
01:23:05,740 --> 01:23:08,380
that we have to get outside of our own bubble.

1324
01:23:08,380 --> 01:23:13,380
You know, like it's just, we have to embrace

1325
01:23:13,620 --> 01:23:15,180
like our differences.

1326
01:23:15,180 --> 01:23:18,380
We have to go back to kindergarten and, you know,

1327
01:23:18,380 --> 01:23:23,140
figure out that like there wasn't, you know, I don't know,

1328
01:23:23,140 --> 01:23:24,780
vegans shouldn't be put on a pedestal

1329
01:23:24,780 --> 01:23:26,060
just because they're vegan.

1330
01:23:26,060 --> 01:23:28,060
Animal rights activists shouldn't be put on a pedestal

1331
01:23:28,060 --> 01:23:29,540
just because they're an animal rights activist.

1332
01:23:29,540 --> 01:23:33,780
That doesn't mean that they're free of any sort of like,

1333
01:23:33,780 --> 01:23:36,020
I don't know, imperfections.

1334
01:23:36,020 --> 01:23:38,020
And I think that goes with anyone.

1335
01:23:38,020 --> 01:23:41,340
So people have a lot to offer

1336
01:23:41,340 --> 01:23:43,860
and they deserve to heal too.

1337
01:23:43,860 --> 01:23:48,860
100% agree, I mean, it's so unfair to judge someone

1338
01:23:50,540 --> 01:23:53,140
for the worst thing they have done in their life.

1339
01:23:54,340 --> 01:23:55,780
Like we're bigger than that

1340
01:23:55,780 --> 01:23:58,820
and we have potential to do lots of good things.

1341
01:24:00,580 --> 01:24:04,420
Let's not imprison people in their past.

1342
01:24:05,580 --> 01:24:10,500
And also it's always surprising to see, for me at least,

1343
01:24:10,500 --> 01:24:13,780
to see vegans being judgmental.

1344
01:24:13,780 --> 01:24:17,620
Because, you know, I think for me,

1345
01:24:17,620 --> 01:24:21,460
it's wrong to eat animals and animal products.

1346
01:24:21,460 --> 01:24:24,820
It's again, going back to that image of a corpse.

1347
01:24:26,140 --> 01:24:31,140
But I had to learn to accept, you know,

1348
01:24:32,220 --> 01:24:37,220
people who disagree with me.

1349
01:24:37,740 --> 01:24:38,580
Yeah.

1350
01:24:38,580 --> 01:24:41,820
And to live with them and to love them

1351
01:24:41,820 --> 01:24:43,580
and to still respect them.

1352
01:24:43,580 --> 01:24:48,260
And to still believe in what I believe

1353
01:24:48,260 --> 01:24:52,620
and to still push that agenda of animal rights.

1354
01:24:53,700 --> 01:24:57,060
And I found myself, you know, doing that.

1355
01:24:57,060 --> 01:25:02,060
I found myself becoming, I guess, a bigger person.

1356
01:25:02,180 --> 01:25:04,460
Like in the sense of, you know,

1357
01:25:04,460 --> 01:25:07,700
developing my compassion and my empathy

1358
01:25:07,700 --> 01:25:12,700
and having this greater view of things.

1359
01:25:13,660 --> 01:25:16,380
And I'm surprised that other vegans

1360
01:25:16,380 --> 01:25:20,980
are not forced into that position of doing that kind of work.

1361
01:25:20,980 --> 01:25:23,340
Because I feel like, you know,

1362
01:25:24,660 --> 01:25:27,420
if I did not have that perspective,

1363
01:25:27,420 --> 01:25:32,420
I would have, you know, just become mad and mad at the world.

1364
01:25:32,700 --> 01:25:34,860
Well, I think that's where a lot of people are.

1365
01:25:34,860 --> 01:25:36,100
Yeah, I mean.

1366
01:25:36,100 --> 01:25:37,900
And, you know, like I'm mad too.

1367
01:25:37,900 --> 01:25:40,260
Like, you know, but I think it's,

1368
01:25:40,260 --> 01:25:43,940
how do we, what do we do with that anger?

1369
01:25:43,940 --> 01:25:45,180
How are we using it?

1370
01:25:45,180 --> 01:25:47,020
Who are we taking it out on?

1371
01:25:47,020 --> 01:25:52,020
You know, like, does demonizing animal lab workers

1372
01:25:52,340 --> 01:25:54,380
liberate animals?

1373
01:25:54,380 --> 01:25:55,900
No, it doesn't.

1374
01:25:58,060 --> 01:25:58,980
It just doesn't.

1375
01:25:58,980 --> 01:26:03,980
And, you know, can bringing people together

1376
01:26:03,980 --> 01:26:08,980
on common sort of core beliefs, like, I don't know,

1377
01:26:09,900 --> 01:26:14,900
compassion and even in some ways, like greater good,

1378
01:26:15,860 --> 01:26:17,420
but looking at it differently.

1379
01:26:17,420 --> 01:26:20,540
Like, you know, like not this whole using animals

1380
01:26:20,540 --> 01:26:22,140
for the greater good, but how can we,

1381
01:26:22,140 --> 01:26:24,940
like, what do we think needs to actually happen

1382
01:26:24,940 --> 01:26:26,620
for the greater good?

1383
01:26:26,620 --> 01:26:29,020
I think there's more alignment there.

1384
01:26:29,020 --> 01:26:34,020
And yeah, it's just important to sort of get outside

1385
01:26:34,700 --> 01:26:36,300
the vegan bubble.

1386
01:26:36,300 --> 01:26:37,500
It's simple.

1387
01:26:37,500 --> 01:26:41,700
You'll feel happier and you'll be more impactful.

1388
01:26:41,700 --> 01:26:44,060
I mean, that's a great deal.

1389
01:26:44,060 --> 01:26:44,900
I mean, take it.

1390
01:26:44,900 --> 01:26:45,740
It is.

1391
01:26:46,820 --> 01:26:50,820
Yeah, no, it's, the anchor is hard.

1392
01:26:50,820 --> 01:26:53,940
It's not good for us either.

1393
01:26:53,940 --> 01:26:55,860
I mean, again, it's normal.

1394
01:26:55,860 --> 01:26:57,860
It's, you know, it shouldn't be like,

1395
01:26:57,860 --> 01:27:00,180
oh my God, this is so wild that you're angry.

1396
01:27:00,180 --> 01:27:03,500
Like, of course, but yeah, if it's all that like,

1397
01:27:03,500 --> 01:27:06,660
is sort of running you, it's not good.

1398
01:27:06,660 --> 01:27:09,380
I gave myself high blood pressure at one point.

1399
01:27:09,380 --> 01:27:11,260
And oh my gosh, don't get me started

1400
01:27:11,260 --> 01:27:13,100
on the number of vegans who are like,

1401
01:27:13,100 --> 01:27:15,540
eating vegan lowers your blood pressure.

1402
01:27:15,540 --> 01:27:16,580
Well, guess what?

1403
01:27:16,580 --> 01:27:19,820
As a vegan, I gave myself high blood pressure.

1404
01:27:19,820 --> 01:27:22,620
You know, that's where like the anger and the trauma,

1405
01:27:22,620 --> 01:27:26,420
like when I really had it not under control, you know,

1406
01:27:26,420 --> 01:27:28,860
I was being told you gotta get this under control

1407
01:27:28,860 --> 01:27:30,540
or you need to go on medication.

1408
01:27:30,540 --> 01:27:35,540
I was like 29, you know, like, I mean, it's so,

1409
01:27:36,700 --> 01:27:38,460
being vegan isn't a fix all.

1410
01:27:38,460 --> 01:27:41,380
It's not this like, you know, it's great.

1411
01:27:41,380 --> 01:27:45,380
It's, you know, but it's just one thing

1412
01:27:45,380 --> 01:27:46,980
and there's so much more.

1413
01:27:48,980 --> 01:27:49,820
Yeah.

1414
01:27:49,820 --> 01:27:52,060
Exactly, I realized I had that phase

1415
01:27:52,060 --> 01:27:55,380
and I realized I don't have the luxury of being angry.

1416
01:27:55,380 --> 01:27:56,700
I really don't.

1417
01:27:56,700 --> 01:28:00,860
It costs too much in public health, you know,

1418
01:28:00,860 --> 01:28:04,020
healthcare and I only have one life.

1419
01:28:04,020 --> 01:28:06,900
You know, that's how poor I am, just one.

1420
01:28:06,900 --> 01:28:07,740
Okay.

1421
01:28:10,700 --> 01:28:14,900
So Maddie, did I forget to mention something?

1422
01:28:14,900 --> 01:28:16,900
Did we forget something?

1423
01:28:18,260 --> 01:28:19,780
Did you forget to talk about anything?

1424
01:28:19,780 --> 01:28:20,620
Is that what you said?

1425
01:28:20,620 --> 01:28:25,620
So yes, to ask you about anything important.

1426
01:28:25,620 --> 01:28:26,860
I mean, not really.

1427
01:28:26,860 --> 01:28:29,660
Like I know we didn't talk about my lawsuits,

1428
01:28:29,660 --> 01:28:31,140
but we definitely don't need to.

1429
01:28:31,140 --> 01:28:33,820
We could even talk about them a different time.

1430
01:28:34,740 --> 01:28:39,060
I think it's, yeah, it's kind of a whole other deep dive,

1431
01:28:39,060 --> 01:28:43,020
but yeah, if there's any listeners curious,

1432
01:28:43,020 --> 01:28:46,780
they can look more into my social media

1433
01:28:46,780 --> 01:28:49,940
and find information, reach out and ask.

1434
01:28:49,940 --> 01:28:52,020
Check out the Washington Post features.

1435
01:28:53,100 --> 01:28:54,420
100%, yes.

1436
01:28:54,420 --> 01:28:58,140
I was also thinking that deserves its own episode.

1437
01:28:58,140 --> 01:28:58,980
Yeah.

1438
01:28:58,980 --> 01:29:02,780
And yes, you're welcome to come back on the show anytime,

1439
01:29:02,780 --> 01:29:03,620
Maddie.

1440
01:29:04,460 --> 01:29:06,060
It was really a pleasure.

1441
01:29:06,940 --> 01:29:07,780
Really, thank you.

1442
01:29:07,780 --> 01:29:10,620
Thank you so much for the work you're doing

1443
01:29:10,620 --> 01:29:14,540
and for having accepted my invitation.

1444
01:29:14,540 --> 01:29:16,540
Of course, thank you so much for having me.

1445
01:29:16,540 --> 01:29:20,180
And yeah, I really appreciated this

1446
01:29:20,180 --> 01:29:22,980
very casual conversation style.

1447
01:29:22,980 --> 01:29:26,980
It just, yeah, I appreciated this discussion

1448
01:29:26,980 --> 01:29:30,460
and I'm glad that I was invited too.

1449
01:29:30,460 --> 01:29:31,580
Thank you so much.

1450
01:29:31,580 --> 01:29:33,620
Thank you everyone for listening.

1451
01:29:33,620 --> 01:29:36,260
I kindly invite you to share this podcast

1452
01:29:36,260 --> 01:29:37,780
with the vegans you know.

1453
01:29:37,780 --> 01:29:41,540
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1454
01:29:41,540 --> 01:29:43,740
Again, thank you so much for caring

1455
01:29:43,740 --> 01:29:47,140
and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.

1456
01:30:13,740 --> 01:30:14,580
Thank you.