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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan, and for this episode we will explore the link between Buddhism

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and veganism.

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A few months ago I had an incredible conversation with Bhikkhu Sonu, a vegan Buddhist monk,

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and during the episode we talked about Dharma voices for animals.

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What is Dharma voices for animals?

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It's a non-profit organization committed to speaking out when the actions of those

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in the Buddhist community and the policies of Buddhist centers lead to animal suffering.

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Since that conversation I knew I had to get this organization on the podcast, and today

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at last we will be speaking with Bob Isaacson, founder and president of Dharma voices for

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animals, and Ajani Puik, project director of Dharma voices for animals.

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So both of you, I'm so happy to have you on, welcome to the show.

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Thank you, thank you for having us, it's a pleasure to be here and to have this conversation

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on this important, passionate subject for all of us on the call.

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Yeah, I'm happy to be here and share whatever I can, whatever you're interested in and your

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listeners are interested in about Dharma voices for animals.

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Amazing.

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So my first question for you has to do with being strategic in making an impact for the

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vegan cause.

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And this is how I introduced my conversation, my former conversation with Biko Sonu.

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I asked him, how come there aren't more initiatives out there that target leaders in our communities,

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like business leaders or religious leaders, who will then implement greater change in

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their own community?

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They have that power, they already have that much influence on a greater number of people.

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Yeah, so Bob Isaacson here, so I started this organization Dharma voices for animals with

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three friends in California in 2011.

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And the reason we did it was all four of us had experienced frustration in attending retreats

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at places that were sometimes not even vegetarian, let alone vegan.

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There seemed to be such a disconnect between the Buddhist message of compassion for all

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sentient beings and the actual practice of serving animal flesh and or animal products,

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milk, eggs, etc.

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So we started it because we realized I tried individual advocacy along with two friends,

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we actually did this work independently, then we met each other, and we decided we needed

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an organization.

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So we started.

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So you make a really good point.

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If we're just talking one on one, it's important to talk one on one with people for sure.

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But we don't change that many hearts and minds if we do that.

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But instead, if we talk to institutions, leaders, as you put it, that's the vision of DVA, as

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you mentioned.

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So in each country, so I just should mention to your listeners, we have important projects

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in four countries.

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First of all, our US project, we call it our US Centers Project, and our Johnny Plyg is

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here to talk about there to share other information and understandings insights that she has.

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We also have a project in three countries, three Asian countries, and that's Thailand,

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Sri Lanka, and Vietnam.

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Those three countries have a combined Buddhist population of about 141 million Buddhists.

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So the reason for DVA is the reason we're in those three countries, that Buddhism is

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the religion or spiritual path.

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Other people would call it a religion of choice of the majority of the people.

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In Thailand, 65 million people identify as Buddhists have a population of 70 million.

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And there we talk to the monks, we talk to the monks, there's about 300,000, not a lot

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of nuns in Thailand.

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Most of the monastics are monks or men, and they eat everything.

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The way they interpret their precepts, they have to accept whatever is offered.

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People understand that the monks like to eat, they like the taste of animal flesh, eggs.

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Some monks are eating seven or eight eggs a day in Thailand, but they suffer, scientific

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studies have been done there, they suffer from the worst kinds of disease, cancer, heart

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disease, high blood pressure, obesity, and, did I say cancer?

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Yeah, all the big ones that you can think of.

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So we talk to the monks there, and we're not even talking about compassion.

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They don't want to hear from a guy from California about compassion.

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They want to hear, and I'm from California.

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They want to hear from, they want to, they are concerned about their health, which is

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why we talk to them about their health.

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And slowly this compassion emerges so that they can see another reason.

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And what we're starting to also talk to them about the environment to give them three really

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good reasons to be vegan.

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So similar stories in the other countries.

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Vietnam is Mahayana, Buddhist country, and there they believe that the Buddha was vegetarian,

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and he wanted his followers to be.

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So we're starting at a much higher place in Vietnam, but so few of the Vietnamese folks

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are vegetarian, let alone vegan.

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So we teach cooking at the pagodas or the temples in Vietnam.

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People say, we don't know how to cook vegan.

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What is this?

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Well, of course you can leave out the animal flesh and you got something often that's vegan.

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We give them some more recipes, give them more interesting things to do than that.

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And so we're teaching.

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Sometimes we get 5,000 people at one of our presentations.

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They come, they get free food, and they also learn about vegan cooking.

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And Sri Lanka, it's just, it's a conglomeration of many different things we're doing.

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But the monks there, although there aren't many that are vegetarian or vegan, maybe 15%,

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just roughly your estimate by myself.

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In Sri Lanka, the monks are surprisingly open to our vegan message, surprisingly open.

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And they allow us to talk to their congregation, to their Sunday schools that are run out of

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the temples.

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So this is what we're doing.

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And our Jani, of course, can address and should address what we're doing in the US.

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So the message, I want to conclude by saying the message of the Buddha could not be stronger.

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The message, I'm certainly not an expert on world religion and other religions, but the

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message of the Buddha could not be any stronger.

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All sentient beings are entitled to our compassion and not to be harmed.

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It's the first precept by the Buddha.

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It's chanted all the time.

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Right now, people, millions of people around the world are chanting that.

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And yet people are supporting the suffering of animals by eating them and eating their

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products.

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So since it's such a strong message by the Buddha, since there are so many Buddhists

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in the world, somewhere between 500 million, which I think is a very low estimate, and

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1 billion Buddhists in the world, and because there are so few Buddhists that are following

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these teachings, we decided to start DDA in 2011.

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Amazing, Bob.

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We'll get back to the teachings part.

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Arjani, do you believe that the religious argument for animal protection is of greater

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impact than the secular argument for animal protection?

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Or do you believe that activism targeted towards religious groups, leaders, has the potential

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of making a greater impact?

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I guess another way of phrasing that question.

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Yeah, I think especially if we look at Buddhism, the difference really is that there is already

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a supposed commitment towards compassion and towards non-harm.

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And it is very central in the Buddhist path.

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And if we're presupposing that commitment, then we have a lot of space and, so to say,

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to speak of this commitment and to encourage and exhort people to follow that commitment

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into action and not just stay in the realm of prayer, let's say.

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And this is so common in the Buddhist path on so many levels.

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I mean, the entire path is a path.

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It's a training path.

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We are honored to train our minds to perfect certain qualities of mind, to really practice

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mindfulness, to be vigilant of the content of our thoughts, of our speech, of the actions

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of our body.

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So always this body, mind, and speech view on the effects of our action and how we are

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in the world and how we influence others and whether we are bringing benefit to beings

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or not.

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And especially in Mahayana Buddhism, there's the entire path of the Bodhisattva vow and

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the Bodhisattva concept.

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So there we are aiming to attain enlightenment, that liberation, not just for our own sake,

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but in order to bring all countless, endless sentient beings to that same liberation, to

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that same enlightenment.

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So that is part of the Bodhisattva vow.

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It is also called Bodhicitta, the aspiration to benefit beings and bring them towards enlightenment.

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And so it is just a very easy entry point for the vegan message when it is understood,

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when it is understood what the amount of suffering is that we are causing with our consumption

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of animal products.

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And yeah, Mahayana Buddhism is a special kind of Buddhism and it has kind of a strong link

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with veganism.

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And I'm thinking of Bodhisattva Guanyin and the stories related to one particular story

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where she appears in a fishing village and she discourages the villagers from eating

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and fishing, fishes, and she just implements a new model of how to sustain yourself through

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agriculture instead of fishing.

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And you think, oh my gosh, this has been written like centuries ago.

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And then you think of Emperor Ashoka and the spread of Buddhism from India and how he was

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the first one to implement animal welfare laws in history, in all of history.

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It came from a Buddhist leader.

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And I think of that long legacy and that strong relationship between Buddhism and animal welfare

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and veganism, vegetarianism, I guess.

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And I think, how come, like Bob described, how come there are so few vegans in some of

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those countries among monastics?

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Why is there such a contrast and disconnect between the Buddhist teachings, the Buddhist

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history and legacy and the reality of Buddhism on the ground?

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Bob, I see that you're looking for answering this question.

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Go ahead.

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Yes.

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So this is it.

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And so many people, we just got a very nice donation from a woman in Oakland.

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And she said, gee, I was surprised.

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I found your website and I saw it and I thought to myself, what?

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I thought, we're vegan.

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She's a vegan herself.

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But then I find out, so actually I started, I wrote an article published in the Lion's

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Words, a Buddhist publication, both online and there's a journal, a physical journal

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that's published.

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And that's how I start out the article.

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One could stop someone on the streets in London or New York and ask them, are Buddhists vegan

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or at least vegetarian?

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And most people would say, of course.

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That's the common understanding.

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But as you point out, there are very few vegans and more, but not so many vegetarians.

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So I would say one thing in favor of vegan monastics, we work in Vietnam, as I mentioned,

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there are approximately 50,000 monastics.

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And I should say a lot of women monastics who run temples, it's really neat to call

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the abbesses, the abbots are the men.

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And the monastics, 50,000 of them, they're all vegan.

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And that's because they understand the Chinese monastics and the Vietnamese monastics are

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vegan because they understand the word in their cultures, Vietnamese or Chinese, that

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we can interpret as vegetarian, that it actually means vegan, it means completely vegetarian.

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We could say pure vegetarian, it's a way of saying it.

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And so we have like an automatic volunteer army in Vietnam, which we try to use to our

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advantage to manage animals that are vegan, they completely understand.

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But then when they ask their sanghas to be vegan, they'll say either it's not healthy,

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because we know that's not true, but they think it is, that's what's important.

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Or they say, I don't know how to cook vegan.

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So what we've been doing for the last three years or so in Vietnam, we started our project

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there in 2018 at a big animal rights conference in Hanoi.

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We teach them how to cook vegan.

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And it's interesting, and it's fun, and it's easy, and it's inexpensive compared to the

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other food they're eating.

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And so I think we're converting lots of people.

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We have, we'll work with three chefs in, they're all based in Hanoi, but eventually we'll get

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out to the rest of the country, Hanoi is the capital, of course, of Vietnam.

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So that's our challenge.

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But that's also the reason we have DVA.

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You know, if all Buddhists were vegan in the perfect world, we wouldn't have any work to

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do.

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So this is why we started the organization, the message is so strong.

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There's so many Buddhists in the world, hundreds of millions, wherever we draw the line and

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think it's a billion or 800 million, whatever it is.

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There are lots of them and very little compliance with compassionate eating, which is clearly

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required by the Buddha, whether it's Mayan Buddhism or Theravada Buddhism.

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Yeah, I think I would add that the reasons that not more Buddhists are vegetarian or

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vegan are the same that why other people aren't, you know, it is not so different.

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There is like Bob already mentioned, there's misinformation, like a lack of education around

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how to be healthy on a plant based vegan diet, or even a vegetarian one.

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So, and, and really like the animal industries have worked really hard to sow a lot of that,

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you know, misinformation into into society, right, by promoting really with like huge

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budgets for for decades and decades, the message that you need the animal protein to be strong,

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you need milk for your bones, you know, all these things to raise your children well.

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So I mean, these these kind of things, I mean, for one, they're their cultural legacies.

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I mean, it's, it's, we've been eating, we've been omnivorous society, you know.

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But on another, there's also the element of, there's powerful industries behind it that

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that keep sowing that kind of information for for their, you know, profit benefits.

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And so, yeah, that's sort of the information piece.

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And then the other piece is like just attachment, attachment to taste, you know, not knowing

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the realities of the industries, not knowing how the animals actually live.

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That goes hand in hand again with misinformation because of the sort of humane washing, green

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washing that happens a lot, or, you know, a lot of people really just think that the

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dairy cars have a fine life.

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And many people don't even stop to contemplate that by humans drinking milk, we're taking

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it away from, you know, a calf for whom that that milk was intended.

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And and just just really that that lack of education of the realities of the industries

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and the amount of harm they cause to not only the animals themselves, but then the planet,

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right.

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And this is where the environmental impact and climate impact comes in, also biodiversity

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loss.

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So we're inflicting, like influencing so many more animals beyond, you know, just just the

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animals, the farmed animals.

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And yeah, a lot of bias, like it's just a lot of cognitive dissonance, a lot of excuses

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that are found, you know, another thing to mention is the hierarchical structure of,

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you know, but as some Buddhist communities, at least, there's still a lot of simply like

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following the teacher.

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And if the teacher's example is someone who consumes animal products, then a lot of students

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will simply not question it.

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Like they will simply be like, oh, but he he's eating it.

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So she, you know, they're eating it.

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And so I can, so I guess that's the way to interpret the text, right.

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So they, they kind of stop at that interpretation by the model of someone else, right.

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Who is their teacher who's teaching them the Dharma, right.

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So it's, it's super tricky that that hierarchical thing.

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And the example of teachers is a whole like big, tricky subject in itself, I think that

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is worth contemplating.

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Going a bit deeper here, I understand, and you explained very well, you know, the vegan

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dimension, but what about the speciesism?

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When I look at people in the West who display more of a speciesist outlook on life, I always

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think, you know, oh, it's because of their Judeo-Christian background, you know, they

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have learned that humans are, you know, perfect creations, you know, this perfect creation

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at the top of the world and everything was made for them.

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And you know, they were also taught that animals do not have a soul.

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So I understand that.

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Now have you noticed if there was speciesism in among Buddhists?

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Like it's not just the fact that they're not vegan, it's the fact that they don't see

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animals as being sentient or they see themselves as being superior to other form of life out

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there.

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Have you noticed that in people, in Buddhists?

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And are you also addressing that part of the problem?

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Yeah, so, I mean, make a good point.

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The just, Arjani just mentioned desire, one of the classes.

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And also it's a version.

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So people, my way into veganism, first I was vegetarian for many years and then vegan for

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the last 20 years was through the suffering.

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Look at the films, Meet Your Meat, PETA film, Earthlings, another film, just, it's really

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hard for me to watch these films.

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But when I kind of look away, I realize that this is going on all the time, that millions

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and millions of animals are getting killed every day to feed us.

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I like to ask the question, how many animals die each year to feed Buddhists around the

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world?

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And the number is extraordinary, astronomical.

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So it's a version to seeing the suffering.

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The suffering, it's terrible what happens.

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I mean, you know this, the three of us know this, but people don't want to see it.

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They avert their eyes, they don't, they'd say, I'd rather not see that.

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So it's a version to the suffering that the animals experience on the one hand, and it's

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the attachment or the desire for the taste of the food, which is reinforced.

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We're on holidays and people in all cultures have holiday meals with family and friends

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and they're used to a certain type of food.

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It's mostly animal flesh and animal products and all.

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It's hard to break that habit.

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And here in a country like Vietnam, my goodness, the monastics couldn't be better examples.

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There's 50,000, at least in the Vietnamese Buddhist Sangha.

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By the way, our director of the Vietnam Project is one of the three top monks in the country

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of Vietnam.

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He stayed here in my house for almost a couple of weeks in 2017, which is where we forged

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the relationship and he's since been our director.

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And so he talks about this all the time in his Dharma talks.

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He's got a group, a vegetarian group, I think it's 100 people in his Sangha.

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But he said one of the most famous, about the most famous Sangha temples, they call

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pagodas in Vietnam, called Ba Phan.

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And so they have thousands of people frequent that temple and only 100 people are even vegetarian.

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People just don't want to hear the message either because of a desire or aversion.

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So what are you?

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Or ignorance, the one, right?

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And we have all three, attachment, aversion and ignorance.

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Yeah, and ignorance is the third.

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And ignorance, as we know, is the basis for both the for desire and for aversion.

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It's central to all that.

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Moha is, yeah.

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So it's the same thing.

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It's the same point why people are not vegan out there in the rest of the world that are

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not Buddhist and people that are not vegan, that self identify as Buddhist.

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So it's a big job.

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But we know we've got the basis, the foundation of this house for DVA is the Dharma and the

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direct teachings of the Buddha.

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In the Dhammapada, which is a Pali canon text, it said not only that the one should not harm,

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but one should not cause harm.

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So people, everyone, all beings experience the fear and they shy away from danger.

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And one realizes this, she does not cause, does not harm or cause to be harmed.

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That phrase is repeated something like 24 times in the Dhammapada.

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It's a central text for Theravada Buddhism, but also for Mayan Buddhism.

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They accept, I think all the traditions except the Pali canon.

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I mean, what could be stronger?

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Not people are looking away or wanting, wanting, wanting, wanting this taste that they're so

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addicted to.

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Ajani?

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Yeah, I want to add to the speciesism question because I do believe Buddhism has a potential

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and in it, it is actually quite anti-speciesist and not anthropocentric in its worldview because

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we have the different realms of beings, right?

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And we are all on one way in the same category, which is sentient being, you know, wandering

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being in samsara.

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And we like from the Buddhist teachings, we are, we can be reborn in any of those six

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realms.

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Right?

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So that means any of us have, have probably been animals before and might be animals again,

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as well as the other realms of beings, you know, so there is a complete equality of,

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of the, of the, of the consciousness, like of what is described as a sentient being.

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Like we, we can, we just take on these different forms.

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Right?

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But so from that perspective, it should be even more relevant to us what happens to all

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the kinds of other beings, because it might, might be, you know, it might be us one day.

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And, and a lot of Tibetan teachers also teach from that perspective.

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I mean, they call it a mother sentient being.

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So they always in their Dharma talks, they talk about, you know, imagining that all other

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sentient beings, because we've been transmigrating so long in samsara, you know, countless and

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countless of lives.

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The belief is that therefore every single one has at some point had some degree of relationship

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to you, whether it's been your mother, your father, your sibling, your friend, whoever.

334
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And so they, they use that to say like, yeah, do not really do not harm any one of them.

335
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It is the same as harming your own mother.

336
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So those, those teachings are right, right.

337
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Like there, there's plenty of them out there.

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And that's a very anti-speciesist view in my opinion.

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Since the conversation is pulling more and more towards the, you know, the teaching part.

340
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So let's dive into that topic.

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And I guess a question I have around that is, you know, one of the most surprising teaching

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of the Buddha is the fact that, you know, he selected the list of how do you say, you

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know, like jobs, like forbidden jobs, like bad jobs that you should not have.

344
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How does he call that life, not lifestyle, livelihoods exactly.

345
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It's the word that slipped my mind, but yeah, livelihoods.

346
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And he called them, you know, wrong livelihoods.

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And among them is what he calls business in meat.

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And he forbids his not he forbids, but he recommends his followers not to make a livelihood

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in the business of meat.

350
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And he was telling his followers that about 3000 years ago when farming was not the kind

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of factory farming we have right now, you know, it was, I guess, much more humane in

352
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the way that many of the public like to imagine where their food, their meat and animal products

353
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are coming from.

354
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And yet he looked at that and still condemn that practice.

355
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And I want to start with that.

356
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What is so wrong with, you know, humane farming in the sense of what the Buddha witnessed

357
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and how do you explain that even 3000 years ago, there was this understanding of how harmful

358
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it was, you know, bring us a bit in the historical context of that time.

359
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And who wants to take the Bob?

360
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,560
Yeah, I mean, so this is a great point.

361
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,640
I must say, I really like your question.

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And I must say that very few people who I've talked to have engaged with in the last, I

363
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:59,080
was doing this advocacy 10 years before we started DVA 2011 ever talk about wise livelihood.

364
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It's really important.

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And as you said, the Buddhist said that it's not wise livelihood, it's unwise livelihood,

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your unskillful livelihood to engage in the raising of animals for slaughter.

367
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And you think about that.

368
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So why do Buddhists or how do Buddhists justify eating animals?

369
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:30,840
Well, they often, not always, but often say, I didn't kill the animal, someone else killed

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the animal.

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So several things to say about that.

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The first is wise livelihood.

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To clear the Buddha did not draw the line between killing the animal yourself and eating

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an animal that was killed for others, because he forbade, not forbid, you use that word,

375
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and actually, it's just he strongly recommended against working in raising animals for slaughter.

376
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It's specifically mentioned in the Noble Eightfold Path, specifically mentioned there.

377
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So that to me is kind of the end of the story.

378
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If you say, well, someone else killed the animal, all I'm doing is eating it, then you

379
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are not understanding where the Buddha drew the line.

380
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And when we are eating animals, we are forcing others to kill the animal.

381
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And what about the slaughterhouse workers?

382
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I don't know about Canada, but in the US, most of the slaughterhouse workers are poor,

383
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don't have a lot of other opportunities.

384
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It's the most dangerous occupation, factory occupation in the United States.

385
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It's totally harmful.

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You have to kill so many animals during the day, and they have to go home and perhaps

387
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hug and hold their children after having done this.

388
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If we're eating animals, we're forcing slaughterhouse workers to kill the animals.

389
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It's a huge human rights issue in the United States that we're starting to bring attention

390
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to.

391
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So there really is no good excuse for Buddhists to be eating animals as there is not for anyone,

392
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but especially for Buddhists.

393
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,120
The mindfulness is the key to the Buddhist teachings, just to know what your experience

394
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,400
is in the present moment.

395
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If we're paying attention to that, there's a contemplation that goes with it.

396
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How did the animal come to be on my plate?

397
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People should take a look at these films.

398
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If you're going to eat animals, just take a look at the film.

399
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:47,080
See how it is that the animal went from its life to your plate.

400
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,480
It's not easy to look at, but it's important to look at because whenever you change your

401
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:57,320
diet, it's good to do it.

402
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:04,120
I was in my 20s, mid-20s when I became vegetarian, but I was in my 40s when I became vegan.

403
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,680
So I thought, gee, how come I didn't know this before?

404
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,680
Why didn't I notice it?

405
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,800
Well, okay, but all we can really control is the present moment.

406
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,880
It's never too late to stop adding to the suffering.

407
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:24,360
Yeah, I could add, back to the question specifically of right livelihood versus wrong livelihood.

408
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:30,000
The other, I just looked it up again, so the other five, one, two, three, four, five, livelihoods

409
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,440
that are not recommended are also related to causing harm.

410
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:42,600
So it is really in its essence about not subsisting on causing harm to whatever kind of other

411
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,600
being.

412
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:49,680
So another one that's not recommended is dealing in weapons, any kind of business related to

413
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:59,920
weapons, war, et cetera, trading human beings for slavery, business in intoxicants, businesses

414
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:05,400
in poison, and then meat production and butchery.

415
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:13,760
So it's really all of them are about that we should not forward, like forward is one

416
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,120
of the right words, we should just not subsist on the suffering of others.

417
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:26,160
We should not gain benefit for ourselves through causing harm to others.

418
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:33,720
So that it's just so, such a central tenet all the time in Buddhism is not to cause harm,

419
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,960
not to cause harm.

420
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,000
Whether that's an insect, a human being, an animal, and they go further.

421
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,440
I mean, even like unseen beings, like, you know, in many Buddhist traditions, even those

422
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,280
there is instructions how not to harm them.

423
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,400
So it's very vast.

424
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:58,440
It's a very vast amount of teachings that are all exalting us not to cause harm and

425
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:05,080
suffering to others and instead to protect them, to benefit them, to teach them Dharma,

426
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,800
to bring them relative and ultimate benefit.

427
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,720
There's also that like the ultimate would be teaching them the Dharma and helping them

428
00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:17,480
to gain ultimate liberation, but benefit like the relative benefit is any kind of benefit

429
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:18,640
in the present moment.

430
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:25,960
So material benefit, psychological benefit, anything.

431
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:35,000
I'm, I'm truly interested in knowing what kind of reaction Buddhists have when you confront

432
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:41,480
them with those teachings, when you present the proof, when you say, look, this is like

433
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:50,120
you said, Arjani, it's in the, you know, the hard, the core of Buddhism, like not harming.

434
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,280
How do they react?

435
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:58,200
You know, are they in denial or do they feel offended?

436
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:03,240
And not just, you know, and is there, you know, like a different reaction from the monastic

437
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:09,520
community to the lay community?

438
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,480
Are they less receptive?

439
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:18,280
Because I guess they feel like they're the teachers and they don't want to hear lay followers,

440
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:26,840
you know, correct them maybe in their practices or point out to something they could be doing

441
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:27,840
better.

442
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:35,560
So I wonder, you know, how do Buddhists react to your act?

443
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:41,000
It's so interesting because sometimes it can be quite aggressive, even like it can be really

444
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,040
like don't come to me with pointing the moral finger, like don't be moralistic.

445
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,200
And I mean, but you don't tell me what to do.

446
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:56,880
Like I have my own way of interpreting Buddhism or I guess the difficult thing is that they

447
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,080
feel attacked in their practice.

448
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:05,840
And if they do take their practice seriously to a degree, you know, then it is a difficult

449
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,440
thing to come in and say, hey, you're not doing it right.

450
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,840
Or you're like, you're misinterpreting something here.

451
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:18,760
Or so I understand that defensiveness from within, you know, from within to some degree.

452
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:28,240
And what I hear, one of the most common responses that also many teachers I've seen give is

453
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:33,600
that that we cause harm all the time, no matter what.

454
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,600
Right.

455
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,040
So this kind of that's a very common answer is I don't like we cannot avoid harm, even

456
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,520
if you eat vegetables, and even if you're vegan, you know, all the insects and we know

457
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,520
these arguments as vegans, right, all the insects and all the rodents killed in agriculture

458
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,680
also, you know, killed for your sake because you were asking for the crop.

459
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:53,680
Right.

460
00:36:53,680 --> 00:37:01,520
So the only thing about that, the only problem with that issue is with that argument is that

461
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,160
we know, of course, when we're informed that the numbers are far greater when we're consuming

462
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,160
animal products.

463
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:13,240
The numbers of insects and rodents, etc. killed on agricultural land is greater because we're

464
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:19,760
using like 70% of that 80% of that to feed livestock to then feed humans.

465
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:26,200
And so the animal protein equation versus a plant direct plant protein, you know, ingestion

466
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,720
and the lives harmed.

467
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:33,720
I mean, the stack is just, I don't know, I don't know the number right now, but it's

468
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:36,400
like a lot more like so.

469
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:42,640
So from whichever angle you can say, okay, then, but, you know, it's causing less harm.

470
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,080
So let's choose the less harm approach whenever we can.

471
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,200
And I think it's important when we're debating or speaking with people to also admit that

472
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,040
part, right, to say like, yeah, I know my life, the way I'm living it through so many

473
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,480
other ways is causing harm and is causing the killing of beings and be it, you know,

474
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,000
this laptop that we're speaking on right now or phones, you know, like driving a car, all

475
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:12,080
those, you know, so many just walking outside in the yard, you know, we crush insects without

476
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,080
our knowledge.

477
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,840
And, and so I think it's important to always say to be humble in that moment and say, yes,

478
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:19,840
it is true.

479
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,520
We are all causing the death of other sentient beings simply by existing.

480
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,840
And there's really no way to avoid that completely.

481
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:36,880
But there are very accessible nowadays ways where we can reduce that amount greatly, right?

482
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,480
Very greatly, especially if we take into account, like I mentioned before, you know, the effects

483
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:48,120
of animal agriculture nowadays on the entire planet on biodiversity loss, on water pollution,

484
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,160
land use, you know, all these things that influence again, so many more animals and

485
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,160
insects, et cetera.

486
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,120
Yeah, so it's a reduction approach.

487
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,920
It's not, it's not, yeah, it's not perfection.

488
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,800
It's not like, oh, we're now saints that don't cause any harm anymore, right?

489
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,240
Once we're vegan Buddhists, no, we acknowledge the harm that is still being caused, but we're

490
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:12,440
trying to reduce it.

491
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,440
Yeah.

492
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:18,520
So DBA has been around, I want to add to that, 13 years now.

493
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,280
And I was doing this, you know, eight or 10 years before that, talking to all, pretty

494
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:30,600
much all of the major, best known, well-known Western teachers, one-on-one, most of the

495
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,480
time, sometimes it'd be through emails or texts and all.

496
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:36,840
People don't want to talk about it.

497
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,480
So what I like to say, they don't want to talk about it.

498
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,760
They don't want to debate it.

499
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,280
They don't want to talk publicly about it.

500
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,320
They just want to be left alone to eat whatever they want to eat.

501
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:56,480
The problem, of course, is that the average American eating somewhere between 10 and 20,000

502
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,520
animals in a lifetime, that's a lot of suffering.

503
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,240
And so, but it's tricky to engage in the debate.

504
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:08,880
You can't force people to talk about it.

505
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:15,280
Just once we're talking about it, we're like 80% of the way there, just to talk about it.

506
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:23,240
So if you're reading our mission, part of our mission, and it's getting people to talk

507
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:24,240
about it.

508
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:25,240
There's two parts.

509
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,040
One is the education, talking about it.

510
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,000
So let's have a quick, I like to say, can we have a conversation about this?

511
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,800
Let's see what happens.

512
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,320
Remaining humble, not self-righteous, it's hard.

513
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:36,320
It's really hard to do.

514
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:37,960
I talked to my sangha about it.

515
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,520
I have a weekly sangha for years and years, and I only bring it up maybe once a year.

516
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,640
So some people even miss it, because it's hard for people.

517
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:52,040
But I've come around to what I think is as non-judgmental as I've ever been about it.

518
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,160
Because you know, one time I was doing the stuff that everyone is doing, that other people

519
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,960
are doing now, eating animals and then eating animal products until 20 years ago.

520
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,360
So you have to come at it from that point.

521
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,760
I'd like to recommend our film.

522
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:12,000
Our film was produced by Keegan Kuhn, who most of your many, let's say, listeners would

523
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,440
know, Cowspiracy, What the Health, They're Trying to Kill Us are three of his films.

524
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,320
He produced some, at least two of those films, that we and I wrote a cabrio.

525
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:23,640
So he produced our film.

526
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,800
I helped write the script and also did some of the editing.

527
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,080
He has another member of our original DVA team.

528
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,480
And it talks about all this except for Wise Livelihood.

529
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,040
It wasn't, the understanding of that wasn't so clear back about 10 or 12 years ago.

530
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,960
But now, so everything else that we're talking about today is in the film.

531
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:49,800
And we talked to and interviewed some of the top teachers, both Western and Eastern teachers.

532
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:55,200
Men and women, different religions, different races, Mahayana, Theravada, everything is

533
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,200
in there.

534
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,760
It's, I think, a really good film.

535
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,880
And Keegan's an award-winning documentary filmmaker.

536
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,520
So this is a good place to go.

537
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:09,760
By the way, the film has been translated into 12 languages, including Chinese and Spanish.

538
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:16,200
And we have a translation of all the major Asian languages, where 98.5% of the Buddhists

539
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,120
live, except for Japanese.

540
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:24,360
If anybody wants to do a translation in Japanese, it's actually not that much, only four pages

541
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,880
when you put it in a transcript.

542
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:28,880
We love it.

543
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,160
Cannot find for this time.

544
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,360
We will have a Japanese translation.

545
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,720
All the other major languages are in there.

546
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:38,440
So please watch our film.

547
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,520
Amazing.

548
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:44,520
And of course, you will find the link in the description below for the movie.

549
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,480
And yes, I absolutely recommend it.

550
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,400
And Animals in the Buddha, it's the name of it.

551
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,400
Go to our website.

552
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:51,400
It's there.

553
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:52,400
You can click on it or just go to YouTube.

554
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:53,400
Animals in the Buddha.

555
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:54,400
It's there.

556
00:42:54,400 --> 00:43:00,520
In fact, I should add it in the audio file of this podcast, just to give a sample to

557
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:06,120
people.

558
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,280
Are these animals being killed for you?

559
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:24,840
Normally, people have no idea what animals go through.

560
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:36,040
It will only be realized when you get to see what actually happens in the slaughterhouses.

561
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,920
Until then, you wouldn't realize.

562
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:47,600
And then when you see that, actually, you will feel if that is really appropriate to

563
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,400
eat them.

564
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,520
It's really horrifying.

565
00:43:53,520 --> 00:44:02,920
Even slaughterhouses have the entire animal that they are supposed to slaughter for the

566
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:10,960
day are standing in a corner out there and then the one by another being slaughtered

567
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,720
in front of the rest of the animal.

568
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:22,960
And then you can imagine how terrifying that experience would be.

569
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:29,360
Just imagine yourself being out there and all your friends and colleagues are being

570
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,760
slaughtered and you are in the line.

571
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,040
Just a step away from that terrifying thing.

572
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:46,160
According to most religions, talk about hell, like most horrifying suffering realm, but

573
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:56,920
I can't imagine there is something more horrifying and painful so-called hell than those horrifying

574
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,880
experience when you are lined up in the slaughterhouse.

575
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:02,880
Just heartbreaking.

576
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:13,320
So, we need to actually see those things so that how we humans are actually causing so

577
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:18,840
much trouble to other sentient beings.

578
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:27,560
Let me continue on this lane of teachings and how people practice Buddhism while not

579
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,400
being vegan and all of that.

580
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:37,000
I want to turn this time to the vegans and to the vegan community at large.

581
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:48,160
I think that if you look at any report or poll done studying the vegan world and its

582
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,640
population, you would find that most vegans are not religious.

583
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,560
And I interpret that in two ways.

584
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:03,960
First of all, as a failure to reach out to religious communities and advocate for veganism

585
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:16,920
in those communities, but also I find that among vegans, there is this nihilism, this

586
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:26,120
difficulty to confront the large scale of animal suffering out there.

587
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:35,480
I would even talk about an existential crisis of just realizing the scale and horror of

588
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:40,440
just factory farming.

589
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:49,480
I wanted to ask you as a Buddhist and as a vegan Buddhist, how do you square your veganism

590
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,040
with your Buddhism?

591
00:46:52,040 --> 00:47:03,840
How do we make place for, because Buddhism is all about happiness and self actualization.

592
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:10,920
But how can you seek and find that while living in a world where you have billions of creatures

593
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:17,480
just being tortured and killed mercilessly?

594
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:18,480
It's a tough question.

595
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:27,240
I know, but it has to do with how the sense you give your veganism and if you find any

596
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:31,000
spiritual meaning to your veganism.

597
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,160
Yeah, so I'll let you answer.

598
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:40,920
Buddhist teachers are not, at least in present time, are not Buddhist.

599
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:48,640
The last Buddha, the historical Buddha, about 2600 years ago is best we could tell, and

600
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:55,640
he did a pretty good job of avoiding harm when he was alive, as you point out, before

601
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,000
huge amounts of factory farming.

602
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:10,840
And it's too easy, it's too lazy, in my opinion, to cop out, to see the suffering and

603
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:19,240
to see the, let's say, non-compliance by Buddhists with Buddhist institutions and Buddhists around

604
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:22,320
the world, to not get involved in that.

605
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:28,920
I mean, it's easy to say, this is terrible.

606
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,960
They don't understand suffering.

607
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,320
They're not mindful, so I'm not going to practice this.

608
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,760
The Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, it was the Buddha gave us great teachings.

609
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:45,520
The teachings fully support non-harming of animals and a compassionate diet, which today

610
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:55,360
means vegan diet, to limit the harm and eliminate all the harm because of all the factors that

611
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,280
we discussed before.

612
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:10,400
So I choose not to hang out and get involved and aversive to the teachers, both here in

613
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:16,240
the US, Western teachers, and teachers that I come across in the three countries, Sri

614
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,240
Lanka, Thailand, and Vietnam.

615
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:20,200
Vietnam's pretty good.

616
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:25,200
The teachers are vegan, as I pointed out before.

617
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,160
So the animals need us.

618
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:33,280
It's not about me, my ego.

619
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:39,440
I can't believe this dissent to reserving animal products or animal flesh.

620
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,400
Let's have a conversation about this.

621
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,240
I mean, that's the challenge of being a Buddha.

622
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:55,240
The Buddha also expressed a strong suggestion and a hope that his followers would not only

623
00:49:55,240 --> 00:50:03,440
refrain from harm, but actually be adding something positive to rectify the wrongs that

624
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,800
are being committed to help those that need our help.

625
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:12,960
There's like an affirmative duty on responsible Buddhists, so we can either choose to accept

626
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:13,960
that or not.

627
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,160
People don't have to start an organization.

628
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,760
Just talk to some people.

629
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,400
Ask the question.

630
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,540
When a teacher is talking, I can't tell you how many times I've heard teachers at Spirit

631
00:50:23,540 --> 00:50:28,880
Rock or IMS or Forest Refuge where I practiced for years and years, and they'll say, I just

632
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,840
had a wonderful sushi dinner.

633
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,920
And at the dinner that I had, and there's no suggestion it's vegan or vegetarian sushi,

634
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:42,120
and then I noticed this or that, or I had fish and chips in England.

635
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,360
An English teacher talks, a teacher in England talks about that.

636
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:53,560
And it's so amazing without any thought that maybe that would be taken in a heartfelt way

637
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:59,760
by somebody like myself that doesn't think it's okay to eat animals as a Buddhist.

638
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,040
So we have to do something.

639
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,040
It's right there in our face.

640
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,040
So say something.

641
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,400
You don't have to start an organization if you want to.

642
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,400
Great.

643
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:13,600
We're the only international Buddhist animal advocacy organization in the whole world.

644
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:14,600
We're the only one.

645
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,640
We've been out there for 13 years and haven't seen any other.

646
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:19,640
There aren't any.

647
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:24,920
There are organizations that are doing good work, but they're not devoted to animal advocacy

648
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,720
like we are.

649
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:29,160
So that's the calling.

650
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:33,600
It's our calling, and I'm sure all of our people's calling of our people.

651
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,400
We want to do something about this.

652
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,800
Arjani, if you want to add something.

653
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,560
Yeah, I mean, the only thing that comes to mind, I'm still a little bit on the philosophical

654
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,680
how to deal with the suffering in the world.

655
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:51,360
So the Buddha, his very first teaching was on the Four Noble Truths.

656
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,380
That's the first thing he spoke about was suffering.

657
00:51:54,380 --> 00:52:01,160
So contrary to perhaps what you mentioned like as the nihilistic or maybe like the very

658
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:09,600
intellectual Western materialistic or scientific point of view, it went straight to suffering.

659
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:16,720
It went straight to what is it that causes suffering, be it physical, mental, anguish,

660
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,480
discomfort, the whole spectrum of suffering.

661
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,200
The word dukkha is a very, it's actually worth looking into because it can be translated

662
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,040
with like 20 different words.

663
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:34,040
So many degrees of suffering that he's talking about, and he taught sort of how we get into

664
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,200
that entrapment and how to get out of it.

665
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:42,560
And so that is really what we're turning towards on the Buddhist path.

666
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:49,080
There isn't a shying away from it or denying it or even being crushed by it.

667
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,160
So the message isn't, oh my God, there's so much suffering.

668
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:58,360
Yeah, let's just call it a day because this is terrible, we should go in bed and cry.

669
00:52:58,360 --> 00:52:59,360
It's too much to handle.

670
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,920
It's like, okay, there's so much suffering, what can we do to alleviate it in ourselves

671
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,480
and then for others as well?

672
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,440
So yeah, the entire path deals with it really, like constantly.

673
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:18,200
All mind training, everything we do really revolves around that question of the truth

674
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:28,440
of suffering, the mechanisms of it and how to unwind those and find liberation.

675
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,480
And yeah, that's what comes to mind with that question.

676
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,400
Those are great answers.

677
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:41,760
I mean, I tried to ask the daring questions and the questions that nobody is asking, but

678
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:50,080
actually that everyone is asking inside, but are not hard to ask out loud.

679
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:56,040
Let me ask another question with a more philosophical dimension.

680
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,120
And it has to do with evil.

681
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:03,000
And that's the same question I asked a Catholic priest.

682
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:11,720
If we look at those workers or even executives of the farm industry or all the people that

683
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:21,440
are actually abusing animals out there, and we've seen the footage, are those people evil?

684
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:27,240
Is there such a thing as evil from a Buddhist perspective?

685
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:33,200
The way I understand this is it's not evil people.

686
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,800
We do unskillful acts.

687
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:42,980
And so there's always a possibility of redemption in the next moment.

688
00:54:42,980 --> 00:54:49,040
So it's that bad person, terrible for doing this, that's not so helpful for that person

689
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,360
or for the person saying it.

690
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,000
Instead, it's just recognizing there are a lot of acts that cause suffering.

691
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:01,600
I mean, in subtle ways, we cause suffering almost all the time to ourselves and to others.

692
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:06,640
But this is kind of off the charts suffering when you see what happens to animals.

693
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:13,280
So it's quantitatively different, qualitatively different, quantitatively and qualitatively.

694
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,600
It is.

695
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:22,560
So this is something we can do something about.

696
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:29,440
And it's something we should do something about if we can.

697
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:37,040
And to practice Buddhism, to see that universal suffering is the first noble truth, there's

698
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,080
suffering everywhere, then to see how it is that we add to suffering.

699
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,240
So if someone, the practice might go, I'm just putting this out there, it might go something

700
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:46,240
like this.

701
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:50,840
So someone is eating animals, maybe that person takes a look at a video, because it's that

702
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,120
common knowledge what happens to animals.

703
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,560
And what I like to say is that if you haven't seen a video and you haven't been one of the

704
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:02,760
few people that can get into slaughterhouses or factory farms, it's a thousand times worse

705
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,080
than you can imagine.

706
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,000
So wherever you imagine, multiply that by a thousand.

707
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,420
And that's where it is.

708
00:56:08,420 --> 00:56:16,640
So you might take a look at that just to fill in the blanks of a place we don't have any

709
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:17,640
experience.

710
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,240
You take a look at that and then just pay attention to what arises when you go into

711
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:30,200
a store or sit down in a restaurant and order your favorite hamburger or chicken or dairy

712
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,080
dessert or something and pay attention to it.

713
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:34,080
What is it?

714
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:39,280
I mean, I notice craving, I notice wanting for foods.

715
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:46,640
Now my universe of foods that I eat are all plant-based, but I really like frozen soy.

716
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:47,640
I really like it.

717
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,040
I just had some for lunch.

718
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:57,000
It was an ice cream, quote unquote, it's a soy cream sandwich with chocolate outside

719
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,000
and vanilla inside.

720
00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:59,000
And I really like this.

721
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:05,200
I thought I don't have time to have one of these sandwiches about yay big, just like

722
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,800
regular ice cream sandwiches, but they're vegan.

723
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:08,800
They're delicious.

724
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,600
Clear craving.

725
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,360
And I was aware of that.

726
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,040
I mean, I could have this later on.

727
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:15,040
I don't have it now.

728
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,340
We're going to start in five minutes.

729
00:57:17,340 --> 00:57:23,680
But I noticed their craving as I put the delicious soy ice cream sandwich in my mouth and chopped

730
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:24,680
that.

731
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,720
I even walked upstairs because I didn't have enough time to finish it downstairs.

732
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,600
So to notice that and also to notice aversion.

733
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:37,780
When I'm sitting at a table and people I know or maybe not know so well are ordering steaks

734
00:57:37,780 --> 00:57:40,040
and chicken and everything they're eating there.

735
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:41,040
I have to see that.

736
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,040
I'm of course thinking, I notice my aversion.

737
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,560
Why are they eating that?

738
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,040
This is on and on and on.

739
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:48,040
That's aversion.

740
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:49,040
That's what it is.

741
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,560
I can practice mindfulness around my vegan practice.

742
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:57,080
And I suggest to our listeners that everyone can practice mindfulness around their eating.

743
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:03,320
And as the Buddha said in the Foundations of Mindfulness, Majjhima, Nakaya, number 10,

744
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:10,160
very important teaching in the Pali Canon, that we can be mindful internally, what we're

745
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,360
experienced as I just described, but also externally.

746
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:14,960
All right, Jenny.

747
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:21,480
Yeah, I would add, just contemplating on the question of evil, I think from a Buddhist

748
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,400
perspective, it is confused mind.

749
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:35,800
So confused mind is able to be bewildered mind, bewildered by intense emotions usually.

750
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:45,480
The mind experiences so much intensity of these patterns, of habitual patterns of emotions

751
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,520
of, again, all born from ignorance, attachment and aversion, right?

752
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:54,160
As those three first, as that ground where everything springs from.

753
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,600
And so much of it is about reifying the self and protecting the self and defending the

754
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,320
self.

755
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:05,760
And that self can look like that small moment when we're like offended by something, someone

756
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:11,440
says, and it can look like I'm trying to survive and feed my family and I need this job or

757
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:17,640
I want to eat this hamburger because I think it's healthy for me or whatever kind of self

758
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,800
protection is happening.

759
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:27,800
But it is always like the reifying of self versus the Buddhist path moving us a bit more

760
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,920
towards selflessness, right?

761
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:36,600
Or a more altruistic point of view where those lines of dualistic mind get blurred a bit

762
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,880
more and self and other isn't seen as separate.

763
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:45,400
And I know like Tichanand Han and others teach it with words like interbeing, right?

764
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:50,120
There's so many teachings on the interconnection of all of us, right?

765
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,600
Dependent arising, like none of us are a separate entity per se, right?

766
00:59:54,600 --> 01:00:02,040
And so even studying like more philosophical aspects of Buddhism, studying them can infuse

767
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:08,000
this question as well, that it is all interconnected and that also like sort of kind of brought

768
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,240
the evil thing.

769
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:16,440
But yeah, so much harm is caused just by bewildered, confused, bewildered beings that are fighting

770
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,640
for their survival.

771
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:24,920
And from that comes hatred, all kinds of actions, right?

772
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:26,720
Thank you.

773
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:33,840
I want to now turn to the activism part of the organization.

774
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:41,400
And I want to ask you, you know, what has been the impact of Dharma Voices for Animals?

775
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,040
And we touched on that.

776
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:52,680
And like you said, Bob, this organization has been doing great work for 13 years.

777
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:58,780
And so I want to inspire our listeners and talk about the impact the organization has

778
01:00:58,780 --> 01:01:01,760
done in the last decade.

779
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:06,600
Okay, so let's start right here in the US.

780
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:14,280
As I mentioned, my own retreat center has been Spirit Rock since about 1996.

781
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,160
They built the retreat center and completed it in 1998.

782
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:23,440
I started going on retreats there maybe, probably three years, we put all the retreats together.

783
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:28,000
When I first started going on retreat, and I was actually at the first retreat July of

784
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:39,760
1998, the food was all vegetarian, but every single main meal, every single meal had dairy.

785
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,680
So there were no vegan meals and no vegan alternatives, no options.

786
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:45,920
So we started working.

787
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:52,880
We started posting messages, donating breakfasts and lunches, and then you get to post a message

788
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,680
on the bulletin board.

789
01:01:55,680 --> 01:02:02,240
And we did that, some of our supporters gave us money to do that.

790
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:08,520
And slowly but surely, it took a long time with Spirit Rock, it took 10, 12 years.

791
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:16,120
Eventually their meals are now, I would say, 97, 98% vegan.

792
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:23,640
Now there's alternative milks offered, all of the dressings are vegan dressing, all of

793
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,680
the soups are vegan soups and on and on and on.

794
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:33,600
And similarly things that happened with IMS and Berry and Forest Refuge and BCBS center

795
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:34,600
out there.

796
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,600
And there's some other centers that are there.

797
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:43,040
So we've affected enormous change at these centers, but we have so much work to do.

798
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:48,560
So now our Johnnie's caseload is the centers in the United States.

799
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:52,800
And she's going to need help from maybe from your listeners, anybody can help people that

800
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:54,280
actually go to Dharma centers.

801
01:02:54,280 --> 01:03:00,800
And if it's in Canada, if it's a big center, we could probably include that in our list

802
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,760
of centers we're going to engage with.

803
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,920
And each center requires a different thing.

804
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:13,480
We try to connect with decision makers at the centers and start conversations with them

805
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:14,600
and support them.

806
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Maybe we can financially support vegan alternatives, things like that.

807
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:23,840
We're exploring all kinds of possibilities.

808
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:29,680
In a country like Sri Lanka, I tell you, there's 16 million Buddhists in Sri Lanka.

809
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:33,120
It's right off the southeast coast of India.

810
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:39,040
In Sri Lanka, we've had a television show on prime time that teaches vegan cooking.

811
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:46,460
We've had a radio show for five years that goes on every Friday morning in Sri Lanka.

812
01:03:46,460 --> 01:03:52,240
We have a staff of 17 regional coordinators in Sri Lanka.

813
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,040
They go to women's groups.

814
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,640
They go to factories.

815
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:03,240
They go to temples, talk to the kids in the Dharma schools or the Sunday schools, talk

816
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:08,720
to the parents in the sagas in the temple.

817
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:16,200
And we are now, every single month for the last 18 months, we have made over 100 presentations,

818
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,200
sometimes as many as 140 presentations, separate presentations.

819
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:25,080
We're reaching, on the average now, 10,000 people one on one every single month.

820
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,400
I don't know how many people change.

821
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:28,760
We have the anecdotal evidence.

822
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:31,240
Some of the temples have changed in Sri Lanka.

823
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,840
We have the anecdotal evidence that there's one temple in particular there, one to vegan,

824
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:37,640
it was a vegetarian temple.

825
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:42,520
But we know we're affecting lots of people because of the anecdotal evidence.

826
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,520
Maybe someday we'll do a study there.

827
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:56,400
We now have MOUs, memorandums of understanding, where specific WATs, W-A-T-WATs are the term

828
01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,520
for temples in Thailand.

829
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:07,560
A WAT commits to one day a week, they will only accept vegan or plant-based food from

830
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:08,560
the followers.

831
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,640
Now, what effect does that have?

832
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:18,800
Not only are the monks eating vegan for one day a week, it's a good start, it's not enough,

833
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,480
but it's a really good start.

834
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:22,240
But now we're educating the followers.

835
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:25,360
And again, there's 65 million of them.

836
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:32,400
Before we started in Thailand, which is next to China, the largest Buddhist population

837
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:39,800
in the entire world, before we started there, the Thai monks didn't even have the word vegan

838
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:41,440
or plant-based in their vocabulary.

839
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,640
They weren't thinking about it.

840
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:50,760
And so if you're a model, if you're a devoted Buddhist, and a monk says, it doesn't matter

841
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:55,480
if you're eating animal flesh, it doesn't matter if you're eating animal products, it's

842
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:56,480
all the same.

843
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:57,720
Just take whatever's offered.

844
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,000
But now we're changing that narrative.

845
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,000
So it does matter.

846
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:07,840
I know it's only one day a week at these temples, but a lot of the monks are responding to this

847
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:09,960
and we're working with the major temples.

848
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,840
We've been to 150 of them in the last four years.

849
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:14,780
We also teach vegan cooking.

850
01:06:14,780 --> 01:06:23,680
And then in Vietnam, we're sponsoring these large-scale cooking classes and cooking shows.

851
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,120
And some of our events get as many as five or 6,000 people.

852
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:33,200
So we're not counting them with the counter, but we're estimating that during the course

853
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:39,400
of a weekend, actually showing people, 5,000 to 6,000 people how to cook vegan.

854
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:46,040
And at the same time, talking to them about the nutritional benefits to lower your risk

855
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:52,180
of getting cancer and heart disease and obesity and high blood pressure, et cetera, et cetera.

856
01:06:52,180 --> 01:06:54,040
So we know we're having an enormous effect.

857
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:58,680
We've gotten major grants from Open Philanthropy, from ACE, Animal Charity Evaluators.

858
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:13,080
We just got one a couple of days ago from ACE, from the World Foundation of Animals.

859
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:20,360
So we're definitely a major factor out there and we are the only voice for animals in the

860
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,160
Buddhist community, the only organization that's a voice for animals internationally.

861
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:25,840
Thank you, Bob.

862
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:30,280
Arjani, would you like to add something to this long, beautiful list?

863
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:36,800
Yeah, I'd love to just present a little bit what the US strategy will be going forward

864
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,880
because I'm new in my position at DVA.

865
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:47,600
So I'm coming in and having to come up with a whole approach of how I'm going to try to

866
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:53,080
raise awareness of animal suffering and influence Buddhists in the States.

867
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:56,200
So that's my role.

868
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:00,400
So it's a three-tiered strategy that we're planning at DVA.

869
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,200
So the first being direct Dharma center engagement.

870
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:11,040
So really reaching out to Dharma centers, consulting them thoroughly on how to change

871
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:21,360
their menus, what to buy, how to go towards more and more meals being fully plant-based.

872
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:27,160
And in that, we're building right now this program called the Climate and Compassion

873
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:28,160
Awards.

874
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:35,000
So we plan to award and honor Buddhist centers that have animal and climate-friendly food

875
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:36,040
policies.

876
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:44,520
So it's really wanting to push institutional food policies to be better for climate and

877
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,360
animal impact.

878
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:51,760
And with those awards, we hope to raise the profile of those centers and encourage other

879
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:59,000
centers to join and to go through our consulting and hopefully adapt their food policies more

880
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:00,000
and more.

881
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:04,280
And then the second tier would be community engagement, community outreach.

882
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:10,080
I'm very excited about that one because we will have two cohorts per year.

883
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:17,200
So compassion leadership cohorts running twice a year, around four to five months each, where

884
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:22,280
individuals from sanghas or just individual practitioners, individual Buddhists, even

885
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:27,560
individual Buddhist curious people, even if they're not fully practicing yet, or just

886
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:32,480
you know, like, yeah, just practicing a little bit.

887
01:09:32,480 --> 01:09:38,760
They can partake in this learning cohort with us and we will be training them in all aspects

888
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:43,680
of, first of all, like all the in-depth, like what the Buddha taught, like what does Buddhism

889
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:49,240
teach about animal rights, ethics, veganism, vegetarianism.

890
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:54,800
Then also, like the environmental impact, truly like a full deep dive also on animal

891
01:09:54,800 --> 01:10:00,400
suffering and the realities of the animal industries and what common practices are so

892
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:05,240
that they're really equipped with that knowledge in depth and then environmental impact and

893
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:10,640
health impact and then a bit of strategy about, you know, how to engage conversations, how

894
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,960
to lead good conversations.

895
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:21,640
And then encouraging them to go out into their individual communities and bringing animal

896
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,560
advocacy programming into those communities.

897
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:30,760
So that can be in the form of running a book club, a discussion group, you know, showing

898
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:36,840
movies on the subject, documentaries, having a potluck, some kind of like vegan bakeout

899
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:38,080
or something.

900
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:39,400
So it will be very creative.

901
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:44,440
It could be arts programs, whatever they want, but we will be sort of training them, incubating

902
01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:45,440
them.

903
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:47,320
It's like it's the incubating changemakers approach.

904
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:53,000
So you bring people in, you incubate them to know how to do advocacy work and then you

905
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:58,760
send them out to advocate for animals we have in Buddhist communities.

906
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:00,960
So that will be that tier.

907
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,400
And then the last one, just public education, right?

908
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:07,760
So there's direct center outreach, community outreach, and then public education, where

909
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:14,400
we just hope to do more on our website, you know, just get like a better blog running

910
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:19,560
again, have more interviews, you know, just really raise awareness of animal suffering

911
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:26,280
and the Buddhist sphere in the United States in the public way, just kind of in conversation,

912
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,160
in the narrative, in the discourse area.

913
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:30,160
Yeah.

914
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,360
Thank you, Arjani.

915
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:39,600
And I have to confess to the listeners that I am a member of Dharma Voices for Animals

916
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:45,960
and I decided to be a donor and I encourage listeners to also donate.

917
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:53,560
After listening to the impact of the organization, this is what you're contributing to, an organization

918
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:58,400
that is smart and is strategic, that is making a difference.

919
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:05,760
And there's this concept in Buddhism of getting joy, getting happiness from the good and wholesome

920
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:10,600
actions and great things that happen to people.

921
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:20,440
And I get lots of joy from just reading or listening to you, but also reading about all

922
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:24,200
the great things that Dharma Voices for Animals do.

923
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:33,800
So I try to be objective in this interview, but really, I truly believe in this organization.

924
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:40,440
Arjani, Bob, did you have anything more to add before we stop the recording?

925
01:12:40,440 --> 01:12:45,320
Well, thank you for that comment and your appreciation of the work.

926
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:51,800
I'm also very excited to begin this journey with DBA and to really expand and bring whatever

927
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:55,040
skills I have and ideas to the table.

928
01:12:55,040 --> 01:13:02,040
And I'm excited and I really hope people reach out, they can volunteer, they can participate

929
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:07,560
in the cohort, they can tell us of Dharma centers that they think should participate

930
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:08,560
in the awards.

931
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:14,760
There's so many ways to help us out or to be engaged.

932
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:18,680
So I look forward to hearing from folks out there.

933
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:25,680
Also thank you for kind words and for being a member and for donations.

934
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:26,680
It's wonderful.

935
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:27,680
It can really help us.

936
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:34,000
So all these projects that I mentioned in Asia are three countries and in the US and

937
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:35,680
that we're doing lots of other stuff.

938
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:42,200
And we don't mention like in Brazil, Germany, we do work in all these places, but we concentrate

939
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:46,800
on our four projects that we picked those out because of the impact on the number of

940
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:49,880
Buddhists and impact that we can have.

941
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:56,240
So people can join, go to our website and become a member, drop down and just sign up

942
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:59,400
and make a donation if you like.

943
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,920
I mean, if you don't have the means to do that, it's okay, just join and then you'll

944
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:03,920
get our newsletter.

945
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:05,720
So there's something you can do.

946
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:13,760
We have a Sangha that meets the last Sunday of every month.

947
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:18,200
So it's either one hour, we call that Sangha or three hour retreat.

948
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:25,760
And I'm either teaching, so we teach meditation and also it's kind of a time where you can

949
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:34,880
just share your joys and your frustrations with practicing at Buddhist centers or practicing

950
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:37,040
in Sanghas.

951
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:41,360
And so it's kind of a support group for Buddhists.

952
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:45,320
Some people are activists, some are vegan, some are vegetarian, some are none of the

953
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:46,720
above, but do that.

954
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:52,880
I teach it and I also teach with our board member, Bhante Sati, who's a Sri Lankan American

955
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:54,360
Theravadan Buddhist monk.

956
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:59,960
He's one of the few Theravadan monks in the world that's vegan and he has been for many

957
01:14:59,960 --> 01:15:00,960
years.

958
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:09,280
He's been living in the US since 1999 and just send an email or a web form to us if

959
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:14,400
you haven't already signed up for one of our Sunday meetings.

960
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:18,680
So that's another way you can get involved, support your Dharma practice or if you're

961
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:22,960
curious about meditation or whatever, very much appreciated.

962
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,160
The other thing is to help us out with these centers.

963
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:31,800
If you go to a center, so maybe you're going to go on a retreat or maybe it's just you

964
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,400
go to listen to a Dharma talk or maybe just go for a meal.

965
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:36,400
Let us know.

966
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:45,480
Just send an email to friends at dharmavoicesforanimals.org and one of us will be answering your email

967
01:15:45,480 --> 01:15:47,200
if you want to tell us about a center.

968
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:52,720
You got this center and maybe on a certain day of the week they're serving hamburgers

969
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:57,840
there and you're curious about that or you're upset by that.

970
01:15:57,840 --> 01:15:58,840
Let us know.

971
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,480
If you're going to the center, they'll listen to you.

972
01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:07,080
They'll give you the time to talk to them about that.

973
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,240
You might just ask a question.

974
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:10,640
I'm confused.

975
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:11,640
Maybe it goes on like this.

976
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:12,640
I'm confused.

977
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,280
Why are we eating hamburgers?

978
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:19,320
Because I understand how hamburgers are produced.

979
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:23,800
Or maybe you just contact us and let us do the work for you and that's fine.

980
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,080
We just need information on these centers.

981
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,920
So I think that's a way to answer your question.

982
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:29,920
Thanks.

983
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:30,920
Yeah.

984
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:34,640
And I would love to leave one last message too just for listeners, especially if there's

985
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:37,480
any Buddhist listening.

986
01:16:37,480 --> 01:16:44,680
If compassion, I think it's important to contemplate like if compassion, the teachings of compassion

987
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,680
is what drew us to Buddhism.

988
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:54,160
But that is the case and if we care deeply about compassion as a practice, then we have

989
01:16:54,160 --> 01:17:00,120
that opportunity three times a day to put those teachings into practice and into action.

990
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:05,280
And really in the spirit of engaged Buddhism, of really letting our practice come alive,

991
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:10,640
of letting it infuse all aspects of our lives, like our relationships, our consumption, our

992
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:15,880
mind, our thoughts, our, like I said, like body, speech and mind.

993
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:19,920
It's a wonderful opportunity to consider the animals and the impact we have.

994
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,680
And yeah, I want to leave with that.

995
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:27,480
Yeah, if I may, just one more thing I'd like to share.

996
01:17:27,480 --> 01:17:29,920
So animals cannot speak for themselves.

997
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:31,520
They don't speak in a way.

998
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:36,200
I mean, if we have a cat or a dog, we kind of know what they want and that's, but most

999
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:42,480
animals, farmed animals really can't go to a center and say, why are you eating my children?

1000
01:17:42,480 --> 01:17:44,880
I mean, they can't do that.

1001
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,560
So they didn't vote for us.

1002
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:50,320
They didn't select us, but we represent them.

1003
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:56,240
And we, as I mentioned, are the only international Buddhist animal advocacy organization in the

1004
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:57,320
entire world.

1005
01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:59,680
So when you help us, you're helping the animals.

1006
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:00,680
We're speaking for them.

1007
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,840
We're trying to do the best job we can.

1008
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:13,240
And this is your opportunity to help us, to support us so that we can be a voice for animals,

1009
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:16,040
a sound of voice for animals.

1010
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:17,520
Thanks for having us, by the way.

1011
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,520
Of course.

1012
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:21,760
And those are great parting words.

1013
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:23,680
Yes, this is your opportunity.

1014
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:31,720
And yes, you have the chance to be compassionate three times a day.

1015
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:33,440
Yes, to all of that.

1016
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:37,960
And of course, again, more details in the description below.

1017
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:46,320
So Ajani, Bob, thank you so much for all of your work, for your dedication to this organization.

1018
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:50,280
And thank you so much for having accepted my invitation.

1019
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:51,280
Thank you.

1020
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:52,280
Thank you.

1021
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:54,280
Thank you, everyone, for listening.

1022
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:58,600
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

1023
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,640
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1024
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,520
Again, thank you so much for caring.

1025
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:08,040
And I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.

1026
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:18,360
May all beings be happy, Whatever living beings there may be,

1027
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:25,560
Whether they are weak or strong, Omitting none,

1028
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:33,800
The great or the mighty, Medium, short or small,

1029
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:43,000
The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away,

1030
01:19:43,000 --> 01:20:04,360
Those born and to be born, May all beings be happy.