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Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and I believe we all want to see a world where

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veganism is the norm.

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But sadly, opportunities to explore critically our different perspectives and beliefs in

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reaching that goal, in being an effective vegan advocate, are rare.

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So for today, in the name of fostering critical thinking, I decided to gather three influential

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vegans to debate three important questions.

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One, what are the most and least effective ways to advance the vegan cause?

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Two, should we advocate for veganism or reducing animal products consumption?

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And three, should vegans exclusively lead the animal rights cause?

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Here are the rules of the debate.

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I will ask the question, then each participant will have four minutes to answer.

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Then for a second round, an additional four minutes to respond or rebuke arguments made

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by other debaters.

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The speaking order was randomly determined.

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Robert Sheik, athlete, bodybuilder, vegan scent and bestselling author will be the first

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to speak.

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Then George Martin, animal rights activist, social media influencer and social commentator

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will then have the mic.

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Called by Anne Pham, Anne Pham is the successful entrepreneur behind Body Gourmet and Boyda

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Outwear.

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She's also the organizer of the Montreal and Toronto Vegan Christmas Market.

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The three of them have all been past guests of the show.

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I will leave a link in the description to the episodes we recorded together.

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They are all worth a listen.

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Okay, so my first question for you is a nice breaker question, a way to let listeners know

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you better and know your perspectives better.

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So who is your vegan hero?

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Okay, well thank you, Ryan.

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Thank you for having me here and thank you to the other panelists here.

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Who is my vegan hero?

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As soon as I heard this question, the first name that comes to mind is Howard Lyman.

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For those that may not know, Howard Lyman is a fourth generation rancher who became

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an ethical vegan.

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He wrote the books Mad Cowboy and No More Bull and went on an animal rights speaking

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tour for decades.

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We first met about 20 years ago and he is someone I've always looked up to and he's

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the type of vegan advocate that I have aspired to be like.

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Like Howard, I left life on a farm to become an ethical vegan.

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I wrote books and I've been on an animal rights related speaking tour for 20 years.

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We met many times over the years and Howard Lyman is my vegan hero.

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Thank you so much, Robert.

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What about you, George?

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Yeah, my vegan hero.

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Well, I have many vegan heroes that I know or see in my personal life, but I can't name

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them all because I'd be here all day because I guess our true vegan heroes are the ones

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that we spend our days doing activism with and things like that and who inspire us in

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many ways each week by spending time with them.

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If I was to just say off the bat who my vegan hero is, it would be someone I've never actually

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met personally and that would obviously be Gary Yourofsky because he's the reason that

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I'm vegan today.

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It's interesting Robert's on the panel as well because it was through Gary that I heard

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of him back in 2012, 2013.

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I think he was on a list of vegan bodybuilders maybe on the adapt website and stuff.

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I know of Robert from back in the day from when I first went vegan and it was Gary Yourofsky's

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speech that opened my eyes to just what was happening to animals and he's the reason that

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I'm vegan today so I wouldn't be vegan without Gary Yourofsky so it has to be Gary.

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Thank you so much, George.

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What about you Anne?

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Who is my vegan hero?

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In general, when I first heard that question my reflex was to think in general I don't

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really like the idea of idolizing or even naming one individual as a hero or putting

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one person on a pedestal, but I do have to say that I have a lot of admiration and respect

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for people who are involved in exposing factory farming, whether they be gathering footages

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inside slaughterhouses or organizing events to share that information with the public.

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So those will be my hero for sure, but then also hero in my eyes are those people who

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run or volunteer in animal sanctuaries because they do the tireless and thankless job every

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day and that does make a difference.

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But if you were to ask me to name particular individuals I would certainly want to include

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Dr. Melanie Joy in the group.

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She's a social psychologist and author who was responsible for coining the term carnism

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and as you all know carnism refers to this invisible belief system that conditions people

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to eat animals and to see that as normal.

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So she introduced that concept in her book, Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows

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for many years ago and I think the coining of the term carnism itself significantly impacted

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the vegan movement and vegan advocacy in general because it gives the name and a structure

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to the movement and to this unrecognized belief system that justifies eating animals and that

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framework I think really helps people to understand the choices they make for eating animals and

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what justifies that reason for doing so and the arbitrary nature of doing that.

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So I really think she, if I had to name a person who's influential in the movement I

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would say it's her.

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Thank you Anne and I'm sure it resonates with George who's also known as Carnism Debunked.

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So with all of those answers I think we're ready to go in the heart of the topic of why

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we are here and explore with a critical eye the different ways we do activism work in

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the vegan community, the animal rights world and let's start with this question.

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What are the most and least effective ways to advance the vegan cause?

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Robert, let's start with you.

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Okay, thank you Ryan and I want to preface by saying I can be incredibly long-winded

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as you know I think our podcast was scheduled for 45 minutes and it went for an hour and

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40 minutes.

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So what I did was I took some notes ahead of time just to help with my brevity.

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So indulge me for a moment as I read some of my notes regarding this topic.

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So to me the most effective way to advance the vegan cause is to remove our own personal

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biases and to look at the data and evidence to determine what the most effective ways

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to advance veganism are and to incorporate those practices whatever they turn out to

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be.

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The most effective approach to advancing the vegan cause is to provide resources and support

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to the organizations that do the most to help animals which is for a far greater impact

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than we can have on our own.

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That's why those organizations are in place with the talented people in the right spot

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and some have been around for decades and know far more than us as individuals.

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The least effective ways of advancing the vegan cause are to turn people away from veganism

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or turn them away from compassionate behaviors from advocacy approaches that don't resonate

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with them and by not listening to the audience that we're trying to reach.

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We need to spend less time talking and more time listening to the objections that people

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have against veganism.

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And perhaps most of all we need to remove our ego from the equation and look at the

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data and evidence and keep learning so we can be as effective for animals as possible.

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Ultimately it will be the advancements in technology and food production innovation

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that will reduce animal suffering more than a collective moral position to treat animals

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as individuals.

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And just to expand on that we've had a proper animal rights movement for about 50 or 60

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years now.

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Yet right now nine out of every ten babies being born are going to grow up to be omnivores.

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Human population growth is vastly outpacing the rise of veganism.

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We're just falling behind.

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We're lagging behind.

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99.9 percent of animal suffering is in the food system.

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We have to change the food system.

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And that is that means addressing the reasons why people eat animals.

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Most of us here on this screen if you asked us why do you eat the way you do or why do

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you live the way you do or your value system around food choices we would say oh I'm vegan

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for animals my health and the environment.

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Well guess what not the 99 percent.

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They don't care about those.

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Those don't even make their top 10.

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They care about taste cost convenience culture heritage preferences religion societal pressures

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peer pressure social group pressure those types of things.

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And so we have to understand that because right now as you're all probably well aware

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there have been 11 peer reviewed papers that suggest that there's going to be between 62

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and 242 percent more animal agriculture by 2050 unless we change something in the food

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system.

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And so that comes back to basically on an individual level how can your actions influence

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the behavior of those we're trying to reach to change supply and demand and also put pressure

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on the big corporations that are part of this industrialized factory farm food system.

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And so to me the the best way and most effective way to make a difference for animals is to

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focus our efforts in the areas where animals suffer by the greatest numbers and to the

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greatest degree.

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And that's in the food system.

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Thank you Robert.

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OK George.

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Yeah.

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So I don't think I have an answer as elaborate and well articulated to this as Robert does

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but then again that's why he's written the book on on this and I haven't yet written

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a book on such a thing.

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The most effective way I think to advocate for animals.

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Well I would actually say this day and age it's it's through social media.

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We live in the digital age and most information people consume is is digital.

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So word of mouth and stuff it still does exist obviously but obviously it's most I think

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of the information and the things we learn now is is digital and I wouldn't be vegan

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if it weren't for the internet won't for social media.

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So I think sharing things like slaughterhouse footage or you know documentaries and stuff

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and speeches and stuff online I think that's proven to be just probably the main reason

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for the animal rights movement just snowballing within the last decade.

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There's just been like Robert said since however long it's been there's been an animal rights

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movement but still most people obviously are still oppressing animals in some way but there

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hasn't been an explosion like this in vegans in animal rights activists until maybe the

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last I don't know 10 12 or so years something like that and I think that is because of the

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digital age.

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We can now people can now you know they'll give you an objection like oh this doesn't

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happen in the free range egg industry and you can just show them footage straight away

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of some chicks being shredded alive at hatcheries or whatever it is and boom like you can prove

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you can validate veganism in an instant now which is something our predecessors never

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had the privilege of being able to do.

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Donald Watson and such people weren't able to do that.

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The least effective way to advocate veganism it's hard to say because I think all forms

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of activism are valid but I think the least effective way is watering down our message

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and not conveying what's happening to animals is a moral emergency making it just seem like

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a diet making it just seem like some kind of personal choice like oh you know you do

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you and I you know and I'll do me that kind of thing.

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We ultimately need to convey in the same way the other justice movements throughout history

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have been conveyed which is that this is a moral emergency.

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Animals are you know being massacred right now by the billion every single week this

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happens and we need to make it very very clear to the people we talk to that this is an urgent

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issue it's not a diet it's not a you know like a hobby or a fashion or a trend or anything

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like that this is a justice movement and we need people to change immediately.

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Thank you George.

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Anne?

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You know I just want to echo a little bit of what Robert was saying earlier about listening

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to what people what objections people have about veganism because I realized recently

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what people normally think when or what they say when we when we talk about animals and

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how it's unethical to kill animals for food.

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I mean literally people would I have heard people say well I don't really care you know

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in one way or another they would say something like that and it even though it's shocking

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but that is I think on a lot of people's mind they just simply don't care.

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So keeping that in mind I think the most effective ways to advance the vegan cause would involve

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like leveraging our understanding of human psychology to affect behavioral change and

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applying like really marketing principles to tailor our messages to different audiences

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and not just take for granted that everybody cares about animals because that's that that

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that just is not the case I think.

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And just as advertisements are crafted to appeal to specific demographics I think our

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advocacy efforts have to adapt to different to diverse motivations and barriers people

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face regarding veganism.

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I also think to achieve significant gains for the vegan movement it's essential to

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engage institutions such as schools workplaces and promoting plant-based options and to somehow

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I'm not really sure how but we need to really get the government support to get government

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to be involved in at all levels you know municipal provincial and federal but unfortunately that's

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not what we're seeing we're not getting that support due to the stronghold of the meat

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and dairy lobbies and a powerful example of how effective government involvement can be

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is if we look at let's say the anti-smoking campaigns or the the promotion of recycling

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or the banning of plastic bags right when governments actively promote a cause the impact

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is massive and much more effective and currently we only have a small percentage of the population

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in Canada and globally that's vegan despite the increasing trend over the past decade

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for veganism and this I think is mostly because the the advocacy is carried out by grassroots

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organizations only or through peer-to-fear efforts without top-down support.

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So for a person to go vegan it requires such a shift in thinking and lifestyle and each

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person reacts differently to different ways of communicating so I really believe that

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we need a multifaceted approach that includes street activism businesses promoting plant-based

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products school educating students about the realities of factory farming and providing

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plant-based options in their cafeterias we need the medical community to be completely

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behind the message promoting plant-based diets and along with that we also need the governments

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to implement programs that have policies that encourage plant-based lifestyle in public

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institutions and just for the general public because I think at the very least we have

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to find ways to make it natural normal and necessary for the public to adopt a vegan

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diet at the very least we should start with that and we're not having that right now and

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I think that's probably the main reason why veganism hasn't grown as much despite all

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of the efforts in the past decade so I really think that in achieving a transition to a

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full veganism at a massive scale if that's not a likely outcome for a foreseeable future

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then I really think the most effective way would be to advocate both at the same time

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for a transition to full veganism and also to have a message in parallel of reducing

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meat consumption I know that probably goes against you know what I truly believe we should

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all do but realistically I think we should push both messages at the same time thank

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you Anne first of all thank you so much everyone for respecting the time limit for this round

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now I will avoid making commentaries and just leave you the mic in order to respond to points

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made by other participants I already see commonalities in the way you talk of you know how to make

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an impact and also disparities so I'm looking forward to listening to your commentary so

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let's start with you Robert yeah absolutely thank you I took some notes there and I found

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some helpful pieces of insight from both George and Anne and I and I appreciate that I think

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one thing we need to really wrap our heads around and I know I'm going to use this word

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a lot and it's not to be offensive towards anyone but we need to be aware of our own

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ego and privileges and perspectives that we have that one of those involves the green

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premium all of us on this screen very likely have no problem being inconvenienced by an

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eighteen dollar vegan burger paying double or triple the price for plant-based foods

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or vegan options or for being an early adopter within veganism in whatever that is whether

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that's an expensive car with non leather seats or some other non leather item that is that

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is first to the market or we pay a premium price for it or simply with our food we are

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totally okay with the fact that we're going to pay double or triple the price and it because

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we have a moral perspective that encourages our behavior but we also have to look at and

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I'm probably going to say this over and over we have to look at as Anne pointed out human

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psychology and human behavior that's what we need to get to at the root of all of this

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we need behavior change to impact supply and demand and just simply change the way food

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is made if we've all seen products come and go that when the demand is not there they

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disappear how many of you went to work on horseback today perhaps none okay how many

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people are heating your home right now with whale blubber okay you all know I have this

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new book out the impactful vegan it's the number one best-selling animal rights book

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in the world as I as we speak does anybody have a duck or goose feather I could use to

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sign books I can go on and on and this is not because we collectively as a nation as

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a society as a people decided that horses are being exploited we have to stop it it's

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because we invented the bicycle and the automobile and horses were no longer needed for mainstream

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society to be used in the in that form for transportation and hauling supplies we got

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kerosene and other ways to heat our homes and use that as power we didn't have to continue

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to hunt whales these majestic individuals and we change in all kinds of the areas we

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have regular pens I can sign as many books as possible with I know we've got a couple

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Canadians on the call today are you are you tuning in today via your BlackBerry probably

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not right so society changes society tells us what is what is acceptable or what we're

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going to use and what we're going to exploit and what we're going to see as commodities

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and and I really have to believe that this green premium is a barrier and I know I've

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lived a vegan lifestyle for almost 30 years since the late 1900s I've seen so many friends

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family colleagues associates say you know what it's a barrier for me the price is a

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barrier the convenience is a barrier and you know what the taste is also a barrier but

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we have over 1300 companies globally it's probably more than that right now that's an

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old stat for my books probably 1400 or more companies globally working on alternative

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protein solutions precision fermentation making meat from cultivated cells from fermented

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vegetables from plants from all sorts of things that require far less cruelty than our current

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food system and as a society we have proven I don't know about where you live in the UK

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and Canada but I suspect it's very similar 80 percent of Americans eat fast food once

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per week 37 percent of Americans eat fast food every day 20 percent of Americans eat

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one meal a day in their car we have proven we don't care where our food comes from so

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that's what we've got to change the food system to be more compassionate amazing thank you

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Robert by the way I love blackberries I am so sad that they have been discontinued it's

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such a great cell phone okay George what about you yeah so I do agree with Robert that we

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obviously and innovation does help a lot for moving past ways in which we do things but

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we still have to topple the mentality right obviously yeah we're not no longer taking

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a horse and carriage to work like we would have done back in the day but yet horses are

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still being exploited and murdered Robert mentioned the ducks as well obviously we don't

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have a quill pen but yet people are still eating ducks so this is still happening to

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animals so we need to still eradicate the mentality the green premium thing I don't

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really agree with that thing so much as a concept because non-vegans still pay more

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ultimately the vegans do for their weekly shopping budget because they're buying steaks

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and all the most expensive things in the supermarket they're using cost as an excuse like no obviously

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the cheapest foods all in the supermarkets are all vegan products there are certain trendy

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plant-based products like Robert mentioned like you know certain plant-based burgers and

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stuff which might be double the price of a of a dead cow burger but on the whole like

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we all know that we can we can get a much cheaper shop by being a vegan and not buying

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all those most expensive products in the shops so I think when it comes to that if someone

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is being the thing is with the the thing about the cost most people who use that argument

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I think are being disingenuous but the ones who are being genuine about it and they genuinely

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genuinely do actually believe that it's more expensive being vegan and you know I would

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be vegan but I just can't afford it well it's just easy to point them to how to live very

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easily and cheaply as a vegan you can point them to the fact that the most impoverished

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societies worldwide subsist on rice beans lentils potatoes noodles all those sorts of

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things yep thank you George and your turn you know I'm not really sure how to address

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the the green premium because I think some people you're right George do use that as

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an excuse you know just to not try the vegan option just to say that it's too expensive

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but in some cases I think it is true you know there is a markup for for buying things that

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are vegan or that are organic that or you know whatever gluten-free whatever you name

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it you know and it is part of the the pricing structure in a lot of grocery stores to to

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charge that premium because it's vegan so I wouldn't like disregard that objection

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completely I think we need to address it maybe differently I'm not exactly sure how it will

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be effective because it really depends on who's objecting I feel like some people are

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really being genuine about that criticism and some people are just using it as an excuse

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but I I would say that we really have to focus on how do we get people to change their behavior

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something that has been that is so ingrained in our psychology in our culture to eat meat

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and to see that as completely normal and that's I think is a hurdle to get over to get somebody

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to change because it's um to most people it's so normal that it's it's tough to even consider

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giving that up and the idea of having to change a habit that's a lifelong habit I mean just

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imagine any habit that you have right now that you want to get rid of you know whether

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it's scrolling too much on the phone or um I don't know not exercising enough whatever

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it is if we set ourselves a goal to change that habit imagine how hard it is to just

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maintain that for a week or two right so imagine you have to now let's say completely change

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your whole diet for forever like that's a really big obstacle for someone to get over

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and to make that mental shift so I'm not sure but I think we really need to look into the

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science of behavioral change and you know whatever that's out there to really craft

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our message to make it more effective I find I find right now it's kind of all over the

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place you know we just as Robert mentioned we use a lot of our ego we react very strongly

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to certain things that we're angry with so we react very emotionally sometimes and that

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may not be the most effective in advocating for the cause and on social media I find a

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lot of times it feels a bit toxic there's a lot of you know snarky comments so yeah

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I just feel like we're not coordinated in our efforts enough in pushing out that message

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to the public thank you Anne by the way I want to spare five minutes at the end of this

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recording for parting words so if you have a point an additional point to address please

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save it for those last five minutes okay so I think we're ready for the second question

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which is and you touched on that and should we advocate for veganism or reducing animal

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products consumption in our approach Robert I give you the floor okay thank you so much

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and thanks for allowing five minutes at the end because I think I do have some insights

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and solutions to some of those issues regarding changing behavior within the food system but

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now we're going to go on a adventure together okay because I prepared some notes this morning

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for this topic should we advocate for veganism or reducing animal product consumption my

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response might surprise some of you I've always been an ethical vegan vegan for the animals

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since day one but as I spent two and a half years writing a book on how to most effectively

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reduce animal suffering I came to this idea that I came up that I wrote down today to

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me it's similar to the idea of advancing an organized religion or advancing some of the

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key components of a particular religion what's better to promote Christianity as a dogmatic

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worldview and lifestyle or to promote the golden rule will it be easier to get everyone

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to become a Christian or to get as many people as possible to incorporate compassion into

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their lives embracing the golden rule as just part of their lifestyle behavior and assuming

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the result is a net positive based on the goals of those pursuing particular results

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which outcome is more likely to be most effective or impactful I'm not a Christian but I have

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more Christ-like tendencies and behaviors than most Christians because of my actual

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habits value systems and actions that are largely in line with the golden rule which

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is partly associated with Christianity of treating others the way I or more importantly

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they would like to be treated am I therefore effective in spreading compassion or ineffective

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because I do not embrace all the tenets of Christianity and to what degree does that

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matter regarding an end goal I would leave this cautionary note to everyone listening

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here I go again sometimes your own bias towards veganism gets in the way of doing the most

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good for animals you want everyone to become vegan for the same reasons you became vegan

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or because of the reasons that matter most to you you have ego wrapped up in the label

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of veganism and that can oftentimes blind you from embracing some of the most efficacious

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approaches to reducing animal suffering if just becoming vegan is the goal that is a

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battle we will never win just like we will never live in a world where everyone believes

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in the same God or shares the same ethical value system that just won't happen we can't

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even agree on important topics as citizens of a single country it's audacious to believe

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that someday everyone will care about animals the way you care about them if we can't even

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argue on the same we can't even agree on the same God or how to treat women or minorities

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or the poor or the mentally ill or other groups how can we realistically expect a society

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of any significant size to agree on how to treat animals therefore what I focus on of

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course I have a moral ethical imperative toward veganism I have a kind of personal abolitionist

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approach but when I look at efficacy what does the most good I address this in many

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chapters of my new book and I don't have time for it today but there's we have to look as

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and pointed out we have to look at particular demographics who are most likely to adopt

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compassionate behavior we have to look at who's making food purchases 80 percent of

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all food purchases are made by women 70 to 80 percent of all meals for entire family

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are prepared by women we have to look at within the United States the black community the

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African-American community is the fastest growing demographic within veganism we have

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to acknowledge why that is happening and how that's growing and representation is part

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of it doing a plant-based body by default approach is part of it what I call a forks

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over knives effect is part of it taking small incremental steps toward forward progress

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which is the kaizen system is part of it my guess is that everybody on the screen would

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love to have people go vegan overnight I mean I did on December 8th 1995 why can't the rest

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of you but that's not the way the 99 operates thank you thank you so much Robert George

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yeah so I do see the animal rights movement as an inherently abolitionist movement now

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obviously I'd rather people reduced than didn't reduce if that's all we're going to get from

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them if they were never going to go vegan but I don't think we should promote reducetarianism

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we should promote abolitionism because when we do so people will naturally reduce anyway

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if people reject that and say I'm never going to go vegan but to be fair the guy has got

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a point maybe I'll buy some oat milk instead of dairy or something like that I mean this

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is something I've seen in my own personal life I've never ever promoted reducetarianism

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in any form in fact I specifically tell people you know no don't just cut that out why not

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just go vegan but nonetheless people around me you know friends family and stuff who are

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still non-vegan and non-vegan friends and family in my life they will naturally just

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become reducetarians flexitarians and stuff anyway as a result of me promoting abolitionism

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so that's the problem if we promote reducetarianism a reducetarian world is the most we will get

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if we promote veganism yeah I know I agree with what Robert said it is it seems at the

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moment an extremely unrealistic goal for a vegan world but ultimately I think there's

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a big cultural aspect in that I do think every secular country in the world at least one

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day will be vegan for the right reasons and we'll look back on animal slavery in the same

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way that we look back on human slavery which is why I guess we should like I wouldn't agree

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with Robert's analogy of the religion thing because I think we should compare it not to

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a religion but a moral obligation Robert mentioned that you know we shouldn't want people to

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just go vegan for the reasons that you are vegan we should just want them to be vegan

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for whatever the reason is but I would say that the reason to be vegan the only reason

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to be vegans is the reason that I'm vegan for the animal rights reasons if someone is

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just plant-based they're plant-based they're still going to be enslaving animal elephants

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at the circus they're still going to be riding horses they're still going to be going fishing

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for sport but you know don't worry I won't kill the fish I'll just catch and release

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and throw them back kind of thing so these people aren't vegan just because they eat

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a plant-based diet put it this way I would rather live in a world where the reason that

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we didn't sexually assault people was because we take the consent of the victim into account

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not a world where well most of us the reason we don't do it is because we take the consent

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of the victim into the account but then a good majority of people well the reason we

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don't do it is because you might get an STI if you do this so there are absolutely wrong

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selfish reasons to do something and I don't think we should do that at all so yeah I would

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just say abolitionist message and at the same time we should also just promote veganism

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for being about animal rights and we shouldn't accept it if someone says you know oh I'm

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vegan but you know for my health we should correct them we say well that's not veganism

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veganism is about the animals if you're vegan for your health you're still unfortunately

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enslaving and abusing animals in other way and long does animal oppression continue if

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we live in a world like that.

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Thank you George.

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I would say that like at my core and right off the bat I would think that the abolitionist

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message would be the one that's most consistent and the most logical one because it wouldn't

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make sense to say let's say we're talking about racism we wouldn't tell people let's

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just be a little less racist instead of just saying let's not be racist at all right so

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in if we draw a parallel between that and advocating for veganism it would only make

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sense to say let's not abuse animal exploit them at all as opposed to let's abuse them

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less or fewer of them but that being said though I do want to think about you know in

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terms of numbers like I think the question requires a bit of a nuanced approach I mean

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because despite the growing trend over the past several years it's still incredibly difficult

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to increase the percentage of the world like the world population of vegans right we're

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still currently what roughly about three percent of the population worldwide that's vegan and

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it's been hovering there for a while now so it's really difficult to make any significant

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headway I find and there are more there are a lot of reasons why the progress is so slow

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it's because the obstacle is it's that eating meat it's part of practically every culture

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unlike racism you know we can always say okay well we're all human so let's all you know

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be more equal and treat each other more fairly like we all recognize that we all agree with

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that but eating meat though we're not talking about another species so there's like species

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are mixed in there and it's hard to get over that I find so we can't really compare that

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with the other causes completely because it's not totally the same I find and another thing

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I find is that we have to find like a place somewhere between being idealistic and pragmatic

429
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:59,360
so I find that advocating for complete veganism it sets a clear and uncompromising goal which

430
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,960
is important for maintaining the integrity of the animal rights message but given the

431
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:11,160
challenges it's worth considering the impact of advocating for reducing animal product

432
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,840
consumption at the same time even if that seems contradictory because I think it's possible

433
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:23,200
to hold both ideas at once and roll out both strategies and they need not cancel each other

434
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:29,280
out I think different strategies will simply resonate better with different people like

435
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,000
because I actually run some number just hypothetical calculations so let's say every year a person

436
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,600
eats let's say on average 100 animals including land animals fish and and all of the wild

437
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,760
and farm fish so and we're about what 7.9 billion people worldwide on our planet so

438
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:53,280
that's 790 billion animals that's killed every year for food so scenario a let's say we somehow

439
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:59,240
magically achieved 15 percent of the worldwide population that becomes vegan let's just say

440
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,480
a generous number even though we're only at three percent now but let's say we've achieved

441
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,520
15 percent of the worldwide population that's gone vegan completely so that would mean that

442
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:13,840
we would save 118 billion animals each year now if you compare that to scenario the second

443
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,820
scenario where let's say only 60 60 percent of the world population that reduces their

444
00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:25,320
consumption of meat by 30 percent not 50 or 60 let's just by 30 if you make that calculation

445
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,620
you'll see that we would be saving 142 billion animals per year so the number there there's

446
00:38:30,620 --> 00:38:35,160
a discrepancy there's a difference between the numbers already and and you know we if

447
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,520
veganism is about reducing or eliminating suffering of animals we really have to think

448
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:46,600
of the the end results the numbers and numbers I think do matter so to me we should really

449
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:53,200
push out both strategy of both reducing animal consumption as well as the abolition of animal

450
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,920
exploitation altogether.

451
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:03,800
Thank you Anne so now time to respond to the points made let's start with you Robert.

452
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:10,440
Yeah thank you so yeah it appears that George and I disagree on a number of things so I'll

453
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,920
address that I mean it sounds poetic let's let's all promote veganism and let's have

454
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,280
this animal rights message and all that well how's it working and I think your numbers

455
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:25,120
are wrong we're less than one percent globally vegan you have to factor in total world population

456
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:30,080
we have eight billion people and about 80 million vegans we're less than one percent

457
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:38,000
we've been doing this for 60 years how's it working it's not I also have or take issue

458
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:43,600
I mean that you know gently I take issue with the idea that vegan is the end goal I don't

459
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,360
think so I think reducing animal suffering is the end goal for example and there's no

460
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,000
ego attached to this I have all the data in my book Ryan has read it the average vegan

461
00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:00,760
spare is 174 to 365 animal lives per year almost one per day I spare over a hundred

462
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,160
thousand animal lives per year with my approach with the vegan strong method with what I call

463
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:12,920
the strong V approach with my mega best-selling books with my tour that I'm on every single

464
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:19,880
weekend for months on end right now with all that stuff influence on influential people

465
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:26,480
who again promote sometimes a reducetarian type approach and by the way I used to scoff

466
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,320
at that in fact I reluctantly went to the reducetarian summit to end factory farming

467
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,680
I didn't even want to go I was at no interest in it but I looked at the numbers just like

468
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,440
Anne pointed out the numbers don't lie there's data there that we can evaluate it we can

469
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,480
look at it and we can see what works and we need to focus on reducing animal suffering

470
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:51,720
not just trying to get everyone to become vegan it I use I've wrote down a couple other

471
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:57,560
yeah this is a note I wrote down and we're asking people to make an entire lifestyle

472
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,080
overhaul change your worldview completely change everything you know about what you

473
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,240
eat what you what you believe how you think about animals how you think about the world

474
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:13,200
around you that's hard to do but to get someone to reduce their their level of exploitation

475
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,760
towards animals is so much easier to do using again what I what I call our strong V or vegan

476
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,520
strong method to lead by positive example and get people to replace their on average

477
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,920
three thousand five hundred forty calories consumed per day with as many calories from

478
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:33,940
plants instead of animals as possible and that adds up to numbers that we can measure

479
00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:40,760
evaluate and look at as far as the efficacy of reducing suffering globally and again I

480
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:47,840
share all those numbers in the writing that I've done recently thank you Robert George

481
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,800
oh yeah I mean I agree with Robert that it's not working great but it's working better

482
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:59,500
than it ever was as in the promoting the abolitionist vegan message I know that obviously most

483
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:04,000
people in the world just aren't vegan and it seems just like the easy thing to do you

484
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:10,960
know to to get people to reduce but ultimately the reason we're all vegan to begin with is

485
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:16,920
because someone promoted the idea that actually reducetarianism is not enough if we all had

486
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,500
the idea that reducetarianism was good was okay simply put none of us here would be vegan

487
00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:28,680
why would we if we're not hooked on the message that reducetarianism is bad that vegetarianism

488
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:35,520
is bad that flexitarianism is bad the pescatarianism is bad well I would be eating a cheese pizza

489
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,160
right now you know I might okay I might not have some pepperoni on it but I wouldn't be

490
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,360
here talking to you guys about this I wouldn't be a vegan right why would I be because it

491
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:50,040
hasn't been put straightforward enough to me that all these things are immoral to fund

492
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:56,920
so yeah look I completely agree that unfortunately it's not working great overall when we look

493
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,660
at the numbers worldwide of how many people are vegan but it's still working hundreds

494
00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:07,280
of times better than it ever was in history because recently we have promoted abolitionist

495
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,280
animal rights and we've proliferated that message through social media through documentaries

496
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:18,800
like earthlings dominion all that kind of stuff and yes reducetarianism will ultimately

497
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,880
spare a lot of animals but it plateaus once you just have you know if you as I say again

498
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,000
if you have just reducetarianism and maybe you know I don't want to mischaracterise

499
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,440
anyone's argument here I'm sure Robert isn't saying just to promote reducetarianism because

500
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:39,500
he's a vegan after all but what I am saying is reducetarianism does plateau whereas the

501
00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:46,840
end goal of veganism is absolutely well it is the abolition of animal suffering as well

502
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,640
so with that comes the abolition of animal is ending all animal suffering is that if

503
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:56,360
everyone in the world is vegan there's no animal oppression anymore and I just wanted

504
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:02,440
to pick up on maybe one of Anne's points as well that she mentioned it is comparable to

505
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:09,400
all the other injustice is because those injustices are deep rooted and normalised in other societies

506
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,680
they may not be in the west anymore but they were throughout history so we do still have

507
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:21,000
to look at speciesism in the same way that we do look at human slavery at the Holocaust

508
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:26,240
at women being stoned to death in Islamic countries because you know they will foregone

509
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:30,840
their arranged marriage people you know having their tongues cut out because they blasphemed

510
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:36,360
whatever it is we have to look at all these are normal in in certain countries and these

511
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,720
were normal things to do throughout history this was the norm this is where you can't

512
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:47,360
have a society where we don't do this to blasphemous what are you talking about this is crazy and

513
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,560
again even certain mentalities that we've had throughout history these seemed like big

514
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,200
lifestyle changes it might have seemed like a lifestyle change for people not to have

515
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,960
owned slaves for example it was completely changing the way that society functioned and

516
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,560
worked but nonetheless we have to aim for that because we shouldn't stand for anything

517
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,320
less than total liberation.

518
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,640
Thank you George and finally Anne.

519
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:19,240
Just to clarify what I meant when I was saying that you know veganism doesn't is isn't the

520
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:25,480
same as the other social causes I think what I meant was because the other social causes

521
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,880
we all start from the common ground being that we're all humans right so we were advocating

522
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,880
for equal rights between men and women we can always go back to the very idea that hey

523
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,680
men a man and a man and a woman are they're both humans but we can't say the same with

524
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:46,120
animals and humans they'll always be a part of our human consciousness that we'll always

525
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,640
think we're we're another species from the animals that that's I think that's the hurdle

526
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,760
where it's really difficult to convince everyone that that we're all the same that we all deserve

527
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,040
the same rights that we all deserve to not be exploited I think that's that's a lot of

528
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:07,480
the hurdle we have to overcome so so that that's what I was saying when I said that

529
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:18,320
the veganism is not it's not the same as the other social causes now we were saying about

530
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:24,540
reducing I I get what you're saying that reducing isn't is not consistent with the the message

531
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:30,760
that we should abolish you know exploitation of animals altogether but it's just I just

532
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:37,320
find it it's it's not realistic and even though we feel like if if 15 percent is hard I mean

533
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:42,840
how would we ever reach 100 you know it's so I feel like it's just not a realistic goal

534
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:49,000
so it's just it's just a matter of practicality for me so that that that's where I stand even

535
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:55,160
though at the very core I feel like the abolition abolition is the way to go but the numbers

536
00:46:55,160 --> 00:47:01,040
just don't reflect that I feel so to me it just makes more sense to use both you know

537
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:07,640
both the abolitionist message as well as the reductionist one thank you and and thank you

538
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:14,920
everyone for all of those excellent answers and points and arguments I think we're ready

539
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:25,600
now for the last question for of this episode and the question is should vegans exclusively

540
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:34,880
lead the animal rights cause or put in another way can non-vegans is there a place for non-vegans

541
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:42,400
to lead animal rights fights Robert yeah thank you Ryan and thanks George and Anne this is

542
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:48,440
this has been fun I only have a few notes written for this one so I want to just take

543
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:55,680
a quick moment to just add that you know this idea that if if we should be vegan and that's

544
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,280
the message we should be promoting why is vegan recidivism so high it's incredibly high

545
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,240
people just don't stick with it I have for 30 years you've stuck with it for a while

546
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:10,000
a while a while but most don't and I also call for a moral emergency those are the exact

547
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:18,520
words that that I used in my book in fact I I quote a now former non-vegan Alex O'Connor

548
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:24,600
in my book about his moral emergency speech so I just want to clarify I'm not the guy

549
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,640
advocating for reducitarianism in fact I told you I scoffed at that idea and I do call for

550
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:35,080
moral emergency but I also look at the data the data the data the data and the data and

551
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,480
it shows that those who follow a plant-based diet even for their health and their wellness

552
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:44,720
and the forks over knives effect and they stick with it for decades it has a dramatic

553
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:50,280
impact on reducing animal suffering and normalizing a plant-based diet and making it accessible

554
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:55,720
and palatable for anyone now on to the topic at hand I literally only have a few notes

555
00:48:55,720 --> 00:49:03,440
here so should vegans exclusively lead the animal rights cause using the word lead sounds

556
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,880
dog dogmatic and almost cult-like in a way but I understand the use of the word here

557
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,800
I would not want to be considered as a leader in the vegan movement but I think that to

558
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:18,480
maintain the integrity of the vegan moral value system and that ethical vegans should

559
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:24,440
actively be involved in the advancement of the vegan movement but we also need strong

560
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:30,360
allies from outside the vegan movement including those in positions of influence power wealth

561
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,520
and those with connections to other potential allies if we're going to grow as a movement

562
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,960
and I've been around for a long time again a lot of people been vegan longer than me

563
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:46,240
but I've just been around since the late 1900s watching a lot of this stuff and so many things

564
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:52,360
that we all enjoy these vegan burgers and all that many of those were not made possible

565
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:59,820
whatsoever without the investments from non-vegan celebrities musicians athletes actors wealthy

566
00:49:59,820 --> 00:50:04,660
individuals I know many of these companies I work with over 125 plant-based companies

567
00:50:04,660 --> 00:50:09,800
I know who invests in them I worked for the plant-based nutrition company that revolutionized

568
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:14,200
plant-based sports nutrition forever I wrote about it in my book it was led by a totally

569
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,360
non-vegan who ended up selling the company for over half a billion dollars but opened

570
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,760
up the doors to replace millions and millions of animal-based protein drinks with plant-based

571
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:29,920
ones and it normalized it and those products became the best-selling in America alongside

572
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:38,480
animal-based protein powders and such so we have to realize that we celebrate these wins

573
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:46,040
right we celebrate these wins with vegan food or with policy or or political action or whatever

574
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:52,560
forgetting oftentimes that it was our allies and wealthy donors who helped make that possible

575
00:50:52,560 --> 00:51:00,520
that's even true for my own book tours I get supported by by non-vegan people who fund

576
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,480
my vegan outreach this would not be possible I wouldn't have a New York Times best-selling

577
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:09,400
book you know translated nine languages that really has changed people's lives I hear about

578
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:14,440
it in feedback all the time that came from non-vegans investing into my work because

579
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:20,160
they believed in me and the core principles and messages that I promote even if they themselves

580
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:27,600
are not vegan we have to recognize that also my last comment here what's working what's

581
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:34,000
not working animal consumption meat consumption if you will but animal consumption is at an

582
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,560
all-time low in the UK and Germany right now and that's because of all kinds of things

583
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:43,080
not just an abolition approach but because plant-based options are plentiful they're

584
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:48,080
available they're everywhere they're normalized they're popularized they're supported supply

585
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:53,880
and demand kicked in and now we see reduction of animal suffering is an all-time high in

586
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:58,760
some of those countries and we can do the same in the US and Canada and elsewhere if

587
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:04,440
we adopt those principles which is at the heart of what I'm trying to get at if 99.9%

588
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,240
of animal suffering is in the food system that's what we need to tackle that's what

589
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:12,340
we need to change and we have to look at the data and evidence to determine how to most

590
00:52:12,340 --> 00:52:16,680
effectively do that thank you Robert and your answer

591
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:23,640
well I think vegans are naturally positioned to lead the animal rights cause due to their

592
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:30,000
personal commitment and the understanding of the issues but it's crucial to build an

593
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:37,200
inclusive coalitions that involve non-vegans as well just because we're still a marginal

594
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:42,480
group and I think we could benefit from having collaborations with you know other people

595
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:47,680
and just being inclusive basically to me it makes sense to evaluate our action based on

596
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:52,720
the outcome rather than ideology again that comes back to the question of ego right I

597
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:58,000
mean it's not so much about falling under certain label it's just we want to look at

598
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,360
the results and what works the best and I just think that collaborating with allies

599
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:09,200
who may not be fully vegan but who are supportive of reducing animal suffering then we can really

600
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:15,760
leverage on a broader range of resources and influence thank you Anne sorry George misstep

601
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:23,200
here I know it was your turn so George what's your answer yeah thanks and so with regards

602
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,200
to this question I think it depends on the type of action that we're talking about if

603
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:33,400
we're talking about things like outreach advocacy it only makes sense to have vegans at those

604
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:38,680
events I don't want non-vegans I don't know a cube of truth or whatever is talking to

605
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:43,560
other non-vegans on the street and well number one what are they going to be saying to these

606
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:48,320
people and number two why are they going to take the message seriously if it's some guy

607
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:53,000
standing there wearing cow flesh on their shoes and maybe with a big mac in one hand

608
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,960
saying hey you should be vegan or something like that that's just going to be silly right

609
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,520
but when it comes to things like direct actions or something like that yeah I mean if I have

610
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:07,160
a non-vegan friend who says I'm going to go and break into a gas chamber tonight and stop

611
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:12,280
a pig from being gassed to death I'm not going to go you can't because you're not vegan I

612
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,320
might pick him up on it I might say well hang on like what that's great that you're doing

613
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,200
this but what is the reason that you're doing this kind of thing and go from there so it

614
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:26,040
depends on the type of action I guess and when it comes to actually promoting certain

615
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,800
people at the forefront of our movement yeah once again they should be animal rights activists

616
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,200
and vegans so that we should be consistent in that regard but we shouldn't turn away

617
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:42,560
help where we can get it if Donald Trump says he's gonna donate one billion dollars to Peter

618
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:47,160
don't turn down the billion dollars just because Donald Trump isn't vegan take that money and

619
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:52,400
thank Donald Trump for the for the billion dollar injection I would say in that case

620
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:58,640
but yeah I guess overall there my my answer is kind of nuanced it all kind of depends

621
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:00,000
on what it is.

622
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:09,440
Thank you George I see a kind of overall agreement on this question Robert.

623
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:16,400
Yeah well obviously it's good to find some common ground and to be honest and I told

624
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:22,680
Ryan this this is the first debate style conversation I have had in 28 and a half years of being

625
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:27,200
a vegan because I look at my what I mentioned strong be earlier might as well say what it

626
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:33,440
is it's using our skills talents resources other strengths network generosity and volunteering

627
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,880
to most effectively reduce animal suffering and debating is not one of my strengths or

628
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:43,960
skills or talents and so I'm just sharing ideas based on years and years and years of

629
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:50,360
writing books on the subject of veganism so I am glad that we we agreed of course of course

630
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,800
if we're going to maintain the integrity and we and made this point almost exactly what

631
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,920
I had in my notes the exact word maintain the integrity of the vegan you know moral

632
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:05,600
value system we do need vegans at the forefront but as George said we got to take support

633
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:11,160
we can get it I I'm just using my own anecdote anecdotal experience here just on this particular

634
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:18,400
topic which I alluded to earlier I would not be where I am as far as an influential vegan

635
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,640
speaker and author touring like literally all over the world five continents I'm pretty

636
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:29,560
good at what I do without the funding of non-vegans and I was even I even had a a fully funded

637
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,320
tour for half a decade by a non-vegan company that set me out on the road to talk about

638
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,000
building your body on a plant-based diet that was literally the topic of conversation why

639
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:43,320
because their plant-based products were associated with it and all that but that gave me a platform

640
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:47,760
to use my championship vegan bodybuilding physique and background and my if you want

641
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:53,920
to call it charisma whatever you want to say my ability to connect with audiences that

642
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,800
was monumental and and that led to all the things that I do now the best-selling books

643
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,920
and everything and that wouldn't have happened if I didn't accept the support from non-vegans

644
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,560
and that's why I said even the biggest companies you can imagine the Beyond Meats of the World

645
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:13,860
and all of that they have all kinds of non-vegans you know investing into their their company

646
00:57:13,860 --> 00:57:22,080
helping them grow and all of that so so really in summary and Anno I appreciate what you

647
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:28,040
said about an hour ago you mentioned grassroots movement I talk about that I've always been

648
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:34,680
a fan of community organizers and grassroots movement folks are always going to be at the

649
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:39,280
foundation of any movement but we also in order to get to a tipping point to that 10%

650
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:45,160
or 15% as you optimistically said we are going to need celebrities and influencers and allies

651
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,240
and look at all these people I mean how long have each of you been vegan there's a time

652
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:54,420
you weren't right look at look at these the people right now that we're getting money

653
00:57:54,420 --> 00:58:02,440
or support from who could very easily be the next major vegan advocate or being an ally

654
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:07,560
and I mean Earthling Ed wasn't vegan all that long ago I told his story in the book of how

655
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,400
that happened it happened from a news story you know when the truck of chickens tipped

656
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,880
over and he had dead chickens in his refrigerator and thought of that juxtaposition right there

657
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,400
and questioned his own moral value system you never know you never know there are plenty

658
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:24,880
of non-vegans who are tremendous allies and our movement would not be where it is without

659
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:29,720
them I think we just have to acknowledge the facts that's 100% factual and also respected

660
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:35,500
a little bit besides saying we just need vegans and vegans only it's like having a vegan run

661
00:58:35,500 --> 00:58:39,760
a business if they have no idea how to run a business you can't just put a vegan in as

662
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:45,120
a CEO just because they're vegan they have no idea what they're doing same with maybe

663
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,760
they have no idea how to be a grassroots organizer community organizer to get a movement going

664
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:53,500
they just happen to not eat animals and care about animals so we need people using the

665
00:58:53,500 --> 00:58:57,760
right skill sets that's why I created the strong V you got to do what you're great at

666
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,320
and when you can apply what you're great at and allow other people to inject what they're

667
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:06,240
great at then we can move a movement forward at a rapid pace and that's how we create real

668
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:14,200
change thank you Robert I will respect George's turn now so George the mind case is yours

669
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:19,760
yeah I don't really have much to add really to anything that Robert said I mean I would

670
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:27,600
just maybe reiterate all that it was that I would said I had said before we should absolutely

671
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:34,400
take help where we can get it just while still advocating a strong vegan message and also

672
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:41,040
at the same time not being scared to point out inconsistencies that positive reinforcement

673
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,800
that we have with families and friends if someone is you know what Melanie Joy for example

674
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:51,000
would call a vegan ally it's good that we do accept their support and that we're grateful

675
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:56,000
for what they're doing to advance animal rights in that sense but we should also you know

676
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,280
say you know do you think that it you know given that you do support what it is that

677
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:06,520
we do and all that kind of stuff you know do you have you thought about being vegan

678
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:12,800
yourself so that's all I guess I would add to that I don't really have anything to add

679
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:20,840
thank you George and final response I guess I don't have much to add either but it is

680
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:27,000
a backdoor way of getting more non-vegans to come on board by accepting their help by

681
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:31,640
whichever way we can at first and later on to say well you know since you're already

682
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,820
helping and this is you know the motivation behind it is really to reduce animal suffering

683
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:44,080
and to stop it and also I think by letting them on board we have more chances of convincing

684
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:49,920
them than just you know having these two camps that are very opposing each other from the

685
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:57,880
get-go and I also like this idea of like effective altruism when you have like you accept money

686
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,360
you put your money where it helps the most whether it's to an organization that does

687
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,640
a lot of help so if we were to think of veganism and we have non-vegans investing in vegan

688
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:13,680
businesses how that is more helpful than rejecting their help altogether we have to see it that

689
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:18,240
way you know so like if it's something is helpful even though they're not vegans it

690
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:24,760
may actually advance more the cost than we think so it's so yeah I agree with everyone

691
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,160
that we definitely should get the help where we get it.

692
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:35,360
Amazing, what a wonderful way to end this exercise.

693
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:45,280
As promised I want to give you each five more minutes to make last comments maybe about

694
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:52,360
the questions that were asked or to respond to a point someone made so please go ahead

695
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,560
starting with Robert.

696
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:58,880
Okay and thank you once again this has been really fun my first time doing a debate style

697
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,880
conversation it's been a joy honored to be with all of you.

698
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:08,600
George let's go let's go back to the food for a moment you talked about well the cheapest

699
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:15,640
foods in the world are our plants people should just eat that you know and you know and maybe

700
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:20,920
they're paying more you didn't you didn't buy the green premium argument and that's

701
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:27,520
okay because again I'm most interested in listening to people's objections not our objections

702
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:33,280
as vegans but the 99 percent why do they not care about animals and to your point Anne

703
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:38,560
and I wrote this down many times the I don't care response is the number one there's obstacles

704
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:43,840
and objections about protein intake and worry about health and wellness and all that but

705
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:48,440
I don't care it's absolutely number one and to your point or someone's point many people

706
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:53,280
are aware of how animals go from turning into animals to turn into food and they still don't

707
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,860
care and we've seen that over and over and over.

708
01:02:55,860 --> 01:03:05,440
So George why is it that that people are unwilling to change their nutritional behavior I wrote

709
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:12,440
some notes down here part of it is people do not want to give up their power and privilege

710
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:18,040
people talk about I didn't climb to the top of the food chain just to eat rice and beans

711
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,480
well first of all you didn't climb anywhere you inherited an incredible privilege to be

712
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:27,280
able to eat animals and and that's you know something you're choosing to do for for you

713
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:32,400
know your own reasons but part of it is people are more afraid of letting go of something

714
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:40,800
than acquiring something people are are scared to let go of power of influence of dominion

715
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:47,720
of choice of preference of privilege I didn't say that already and so yeah we have a food

716
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:54,640
system where people maybe eat plants but still exploit animals in other ways they buy a leather

717
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:59,120
wallet leather belt but I can promise you nobody I don't care who you are Kim Kardashian

718
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:04,320
nobody's buying six wallets every single day or six pairs of shoes or six hats or purses

719
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:09,720
every single day but everybody sits down to eat six times a day everyone in the western

720
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,560
world that has adequate access to calories I should say a billion people go to bed hungry

721
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:18,520
every night which is unfortunate so people don't want to give that up and also the what

722
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:26,260
I think is rather obvious why do people eat the way they eat sugar oil and salt it's cheap

723
01:04:26,260 --> 01:04:33,360
fried food they cannot stop they cannot get enough of it they love pizza fries burgers

724
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:39,280
soda ice cream it's it's that's just the way it is so we have to understand human nature

725
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,880
and we have to make those products that are as cruelty free as possible and there are

726
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:48,160
many organizations like the good food institute who are working with foreign governments around

727
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:53,540
the world they have a 50 million dollar annual budget and they're working with 1400 companies

728
01:04:53,540 --> 01:04:59,640
that are doing just that and also just as a fun little note here at the end I actually

729
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:06,360
wrote a 35 page paper on the most affordable food in the world and drum roll please this

730
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:12,920
is the most nutrition per cent that you can possibly get it's the mighty lentil the lentil

731
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:18,520
provide dried lentils provide the most nutrition per penny spent followed by beans oats and

732
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:24,480
rice no surprise but guess what nobody wants to eat it they don't want to give up the privilege

733
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:30,600
they want sugar oil salt taste cost convenience give it to me that's what they want that's

734
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:37,160
what we have to give them in as cruelty free form as possible thank you robert I absolutely

735
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:44,200
love lentils hooray for the lentils george your turn yeah I don't have a huge amount

736
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:49,400
to add really I agree that we do need to provide unfortunately it's the way it is we do need

737
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:56,000
to provide people with these foods I'm not I'm by no means a health food vegan myself

738
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,400
I would still be vegan regardless of whether there was all this amazing junk though that

739
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:06,280
we can eat but I but you know I do accept that unfortunately there are a lot of people

740
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:13,040
who are simply too selfish to to change for unless they have like products that replicate

741
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:22,320
perfectly all these things so I do think we should help drive innovation and support these

742
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:27,520
these companies in creating these amazing plant-based alternatives that are hitting

743
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:35,160
the supermarket shelves right now so for me it's it's about ultimately we have to take

744
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:39,280
a two-pronged attack here we have to drive the innovation that do appeal to people's

745
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:46,880
selfishness but we also need to advance animal rights via a very strong moral message we

746
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:53,240
need to make it very clear that animal oppression is is wrong in all forms and even though it

747
01:06:53,240 --> 01:07:00,480
seems like a long and arduous uphill battle now to undertake that I do think that one

748
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:06,240
day ultimately we will look back on the way now that we that we treat animals in the same

749
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:13,200
way that we look back on all the other historical oppressions was it Leonardo da Vinci who said

750
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:19,360
there will come a time now when men such as I will look back now on the murder of animals

751
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:26,880
as we look upon now the the murder of men so yeah for me it's it's about advancing both

752
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:34,960
of those things thank you george final words yeah well I would definitely agree with the

753
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:42,680
with that strategy of advancing both the both messages I like I think it's hard because

754
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:48,480
you know as a vegan at the core it's always hard to to to to think that we can't we can

755
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:54,040
only we cannot just promote only the the ethical aspect of veganism because it doesn't feel

756
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:59,020
intuitive to just tell people to just reduce their consumption but not to try to push too

757
01:07:59,020 --> 01:08:05,280
much of the the ethical aspect of it but but yeah I mean we just have to be practical about

758
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:12,240
this and and I think that the best way really is to to promote both of both messages just

759
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:17,240
because that that's we have to consider not everyone is starting from the the same standpoint

760
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,920
as we are because I went vegan for purely ethical reasons but that's not where everybody

761
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:28,160
starts from so we just have to you know take common sense of that that starting point for

762
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:36,280
for other people as well I think thank you ann and thank you everyone for having participated

763
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:43,800
for having accepted my invitation I'm not sure tell me but I don't think there is such

764
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:50,460
an initiative out there I don't know if there are many debates that have been done on different

765
01:08:50,460 --> 01:08:57,980
ways of doing activism or you know debates that are not targeted to non-vegans debates

766
01:08:57,980 --> 01:09:08,280
between vegans I hope this helped you know foster critical thinking and clarify points

767
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:18,000
for listeners or start a reflection somewhere on how what's the best way to make progress

768
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:26,140
because we need to make progress like you all stated before we're not making we want

769
01:09:26,140 --> 01:09:33,340
to do more and we want the progress to go faster and this is a moral emergency so thank

770
01:09:33,340 --> 01:09:42,360
you again everyone thank you for your time and yeah thank you everyone for listening

771
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:47,640
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know let's encourage more

772
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:54,480
people to take action again thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday

773
01:09:54,480 --> 01:10:00,280
for a new episode thanks for putting this together this was great this was fun maybe

774
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:05,000
I should do more of these this is easy I was actually nervous for like weeks about this

775
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:11,000
like my wife oh no my first debate I got my collared shirt on I got my bottle of water

776
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:17,240
my notes I typed things up I rehearsed and timed it oh but this was it was much easier

777
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:23,000
than I expected I thought it would be much more stressful so this was very pleasant so

778
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:30,000
thank you