Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and I believe we all want to see a world where
veganism is the norm.
But sadly, opportunities to explore critically our different perspectives and beliefs in
reaching that goal, in being an effective vegan advocate, are rare.
So for today, in the name of fostering critical thinking, I decided to gather three influential
vegans to debate three important questions.
One, what are the most and least effective ways to advance the vegan cause?
Two, should we advocate for veganism or reducing animal products consumption?
And three, should vegans exclusively lead the animal rights cause?
Here are the rules of the debate.
I will ask the question, then each participant will have four minutes to answer.
Then for a second round, an additional four minutes to respond or rebuke arguments made
by other debaters.
The speaking order was randomly determined.
Robert Sheik, athlete, bodybuilder, vegan scent and bestselling author will be the first
to speak.
Then George Martin, animal rights activist, social media influencer and social commentator
will then have the mic.
Called by Anne Pham, Anne Pham is the successful entrepreneur behind Body Gourmet and Boyda
Outwear.
She's also the organizer of the Montreal and Toronto Vegan Christmas Market.
The three of them have all been past guests of the show.
I will leave a link in the description to the episodes we recorded together.
They are all worth a listen.
Okay, so my first question for you is a nice breaker question, a way to let listeners know
you better and know your perspectives better.
So who is your vegan hero?
Okay, well thank you, Ryan.
Thank you for having me here and thank you to the other panelists here.
Who is my vegan hero?
As soon as I heard this question, the first name that comes to mind is Howard Lyman.
For those that may not know, Howard Lyman is a fourth generation rancher who became
an ethical vegan.
He wrote the books Mad Cowboy and No More Bull and went on an animal rights speaking
tour for decades.
We first met about 20 years ago and he is someone I've always looked up to and he's
the type of vegan advocate that I have aspired to be like.
Like Howard, I left life on a farm to become an ethical vegan.
I wrote books and I've been on an animal rights related speaking tour for 20 years.
We met many times over the years and Howard Lyman is my vegan hero.
Thank you so much, Robert.
What about you, George?
Yeah, my vegan hero.
Well, I have many vegan heroes that I know or see in my personal life, but I can't name
them all because I'd be here all day because I guess our true vegan heroes are the ones
that we spend our days doing activism with and things like that and who inspire us in
many ways each week by spending time with them.
If I was to just say off the bat who my vegan hero is, it would be someone I've never actually
met personally and that would obviously be Gary Yourofsky because he's the reason that
I'm vegan today.
It's interesting Robert's on the panel as well because it was through Gary that I heard
of him back in 2012, 2013.
I think he was on a list of vegan bodybuilders maybe on the adapt website and stuff.
I know of Robert from back in the day from when I first went vegan and it was Gary Yourofsky's
speech that opened my eyes to just what was happening to animals and he's the reason that
I'm vegan today so I wouldn't be vegan without Gary Yourofsky so it has to be Gary.
Thank you so much, George.
What about you Anne?
Who is my vegan hero?
In general, when I first heard that question my reflex was to think in general I don't
really like the idea of idolizing or even naming one individual as a hero or putting
one person on a pedestal, but I do have to say that I have a lot of admiration and respect
for people who are involved in exposing factory farming, whether they be gathering footages
inside slaughterhouses or organizing events to share that information with the public.
So those will be my hero for sure, but then also hero in my eyes are those people who
run or volunteer in animal sanctuaries because they do the tireless and thankless job every
day and that does make a difference.
But if you were to ask me to name particular individuals I would certainly want to include
Dr. Melanie Joy in the group.
She's a social psychologist and author who was responsible for coining the term carnism
and as you all know carnism refers to this invisible belief system that conditions people
to eat animals and to see that as normal.
So she introduced that concept in her book, Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows
for many years ago and I think the coining of the term carnism itself significantly impacted
the vegan movement and vegan advocacy in general because it gives the name and a structure
to the movement and to this unrecognized belief system that justifies eating animals and that
framework I think really helps people to understand the choices they make for eating animals and
what justifies that reason for doing so and the arbitrary nature of doing that.
So I really think she, if I had to name a person who's influential in the movement I
would say it's her.
Thank you Anne and I'm sure it resonates with George who's also known as Carnism Debunked.
So with all of those answers I think we're ready to go in the heart of the topic of why
we are here and explore with a critical eye the different ways we do activism work in
the vegan community, the animal rights world and let's start with this question.
What are the most and least effective ways to advance the vegan cause?
Robert, let's start with you.
Okay, thank you Ryan and I want to preface by saying I can be incredibly long-winded
as you know I think our podcast was scheduled for 45 minutes and it went for an hour and
40 minutes.
So what I did was I took some notes ahead of time just to help with my brevity.
So indulge me for a moment as I read some of my notes regarding this topic.
So to me the most effective way to advance the vegan cause is to remove our own personal
biases and to look at the data and evidence to determine what the most effective ways
to advance veganism are and to incorporate those practices whatever they turn out to
be.
The most effective approach to advancing the vegan cause is to provide resources and support
to the organizations that do the most to help animals which is for a far greater impact
than we can have on our own.
That's why those organizations are in place with the talented people in the right spot
and some have been around for decades and know far more than us as individuals.
The least effective ways of advancing the vegan cause are to turn people away from veganism
or turn them away from compassionate behaviors from advocacy approaches that don't resonate
with them and by not listening to the audience that we're trying to reach.
We need to spend less time talking and more time listening to the objections that people
have against veganism.
And perhaps most of all we need to remove our ego from the equation and look at the
data and evidence and keep learning so we can be as effective for animals as possible.
Ultimately it will be the advancements in technology and food production innovation
that will reduce animal suffering more than a collective moral position to treat animals
as individuals.
And just to expand on that we've had a proper animal rights movement for about 50 or 60
years now.
Yet right now nine out of every ten babies being born are going to grow up to be omnivores.
Human population growth is vastly outpacing the rise of veganism.
We're just falling behind.
We're lagging behind.
99.9 percent of animal suffering is in the food system.
We have to change the food system.
And that is that means addressing the reasons why people eat animals.
Most of us here on this screen if you asked us why do you eat the way you do or why do
you live the way you do or your value system around food choices we would say oh I'm vegan
for animals my health and the environment.
Well guess what not the 99 percent.
They don't care about those.
Those don't even make their top 10.
They care about taste cost convenience culture heritage preferences religion societal pressures
peer pressure social group pressure those types of things.
And so we have to understand that because right now as you're all probably well aware
there have been 11 peer reviewed papers that suggest that there's going to be between 62
and 242 percent more animal agriculture by 2050 unless we change something in the food
system.
And so that comes back to basically on an individual level how can your actions influence
the behavior of those we're trying to reach to change supply and demand and also put pressure
on the big corporations that are part of this industrialized factory farm food system.
And so to me the the best way and most effective way to make a difference for animals is to
focus our efforts in the areas where animals suffer by the greatest numbers and to the
greatest degree.
And that's in the food system.
Thank you Robert.
OK George.
Yeah.
So I don't think I have an answer as elaborate and well articulated to this as Robert does
but then again that's why he's written the book on on this and I haven't yet written
a book on such a thing.
The most effective way I think to advocate for animals.
Well I would actually say this day and age it's it's through social media.
We live in the digital age and most information people consume is is digital.
So word of mouth and stuff it still does exist obviously but obviously it's most I think
of the information and the things we learn now is is digital and I wouldn't be vegan
if it weren't for the internet won't for social media.
So I think sharing things like slaughterhouse footage or you know documentaries and stuff
and speeches and stuff online I think that's proven to be just probably the main reason
for the animal rights movement just snowballing within the last decade.
There's just been like Robert said since however long it's been there's been an animal rights
movement but still most people obviously are still oppressing animals in some way but there
hasn't been an explosion like this in vegans in animal rights activists until maybe the
last I don't know 10 12 or so years something like that and I think that is because of the
digital age.
We can now people can now you know they'll give you an objection like oh this doesn't
happen in the free range egg industry and you can just show them footage straight away
of some chicks being shredded alive at hatcheries or whatever it is and boom like you can prove
you can validate veganism in an instant now which is something our predecessors never
had the privilege of being able to do.
Donald Watson and such people weren't able to do that.
The least effective way to advocate veganism it's hard to say because I think all forms
of activism are valid but I think the least effective way is watering down our message
and not conveying what's happening to animals is a moral emergency making it just seem like
a diet making it just seem like some kind of personal choice like oh you know you do
you and I you know and I'll do me that kind of thing.
We ultimately need to convey in the same way the other justice movements throughout history
have been conveyed which is that this is a moral emergency.
Animals are you know being massacred right now by the billion every single week this
happens and we need to make it very very clear to the people we talk to that this is an urgent
issue it's not a diet it's not a you know like a hobby or a fashion or a trend or anything
like that this is a justice movement and we need people to change immediately.
Thank you George.
Anne?
You know I just want to echo a little bit of what Robert was saying earlier about listening
to what people what objections people have about veganism because I realized recently
what people normally think when or what they say when we when we talk about animals and
how it's unethical to kill animals for food.
I mean literally people would I have heard people say well I don't really care you know
in one way or another they would say something like that and it even though it's shocking
but that is I think on a lot of people's mind they just simply don't care.
So keeping that in mind I think the most effective ways to advance the vegan cause would involve
like leveraging our understanding of human psychology to affect behavioral change and
applying like really marketing principles to tailor our messages to different audiences
and not just take for granted that everybody cares about animals because that's that that
that just is not the case I think.
And just as advertisements are crafted to appeal to specific demographics I think our
advocacy efforts have to adapt to different to diverse motivations and barriers people
face regarding veganism.
I also think to achieve significant gains for the vegan movement it's essential to
engage institutions such as schools workplaces and promoting plant-based options and to somehow
I'm not really sure how but we need to really get the government support to get government
to be involved in at all levels you know municipal provincial and federal but unfortunately that's
not what we're seeing we're not getting that support due to the stronghold of the meat
and dairy lobbies and a powerful example of how effective government involvement can be
is if we look at let's say the anti-smoking campaigns or the the promotion of recycling
or the banning of plastic bags right when governments actively promote a cause the impact
is massive and much more effective and currently we only have a small percentage of the population
in Canada and globally that's vegan despite the increasing trend over the past decade
for veganism and this I think is mostly because the the advocacy is carried out by grassroots
organizations only or through peer-to-fear efforts without top-down support.
So for a person to go vegan it requires such a shift in thinking and lifestyle and each
person reacts differently to different ways of communicating so I really believe that
we need a multifaceted approach that includes street activism businesses promoting plant-based
products school educating students about the realities of factory farming and providing
plant-based options in their cafeterias we need the medical community to be completely
behind the message promoting plant-based diets and along with that we also need the governments
to implement programs that have policies that encourage plant-based lifestyle in public
institutions and just for the general public because I think at the very least we have
to find ways to make it natural normal and necessary for the public to adopt a vegan
diet at the very least we should start with that and we're not having that right now and
I think that's probably the main reason why veganism hasn't grown as much despite all
of the efforts in the past decade so I really think that in achieving a transition to a
full veganism at a massive scale if that's not a likely outcome for a foreseeable future
then I really think the most effective way would be to advocate both at the same time
for a transition to full veganism and also to have a message in parallel of reducing
meat consumption I know that probably goes against you know what I truly believe we should
all do but realistically I think we should push both messages at the same time thank
you Anne first of all thank you so much everyone for respecting the time limit for this round
now I will avoid making commentaries and just leave you the mic in order to respond to points
made by other participants I already see commonalities in the way you talk of you know how to make
an impact and also disparities so I'm looking forward to listening to your commentary so
let's start with you Robert yeah absolutely thank you I took some notes there and I found
some helpful pieces of insight from both George and Anne and I and I appreciate that I think
one thing we need to really wrap our heads around and I know I'm going to use this word
a lot and it's not to be offensive towards anyone but we need to be aware of our own
ego and privileges and perspectives that we have that one of those involves the green
premium all of us on this screen very likely have no problem being inconvenienced by an
eighteen dollar vegan burger paying double or triple the price for plant-based foods
or vegan options or for being an early adopter within veganism in whatever that is whether
that's an expensive car with non leather seats or some other non leather item that is that
is first to the market or we pay a premium price for it or simply with our food we are
totally okay with the fact that we're going to pay double or triple the price and it because
we have a moral perspective that encourages our behavior but we also have to look at and
I'm probably going to say this over and over we have to look at as Anne pointed out human
psychology and human behavior that's what we need to get to at the root of all of this
we need behavior change to impact supply and demand and just simply change the way food
is made if we've all seen products come and go that when the demand is not there they
disappear how many of you went to work on horseback today perhaps none okay how many
people are heating your home right now with whale blubber okay you all know I have this
new book out the impactful vegan it's the number one best-selling animal rights book
in the world as I as we speak does anybody have a duck or goose feather I could use to
sign books I can go on and on and this is not because we collectively as a nation as
a society as a people decided that horses are being exploited we have to stop it it's
because we invented the bicycle and the automobile and horses were no longer needed for mainstream
society to be used in the in that form for transportation and hauling supplies we got
kerosene and other ways to heat our homes and use that as power we didn't have to continue
to hunt whales these majestic individuals and we change in all kinds of the areas we
have regular pens I can sign as many books as possible with I know we've got a couple
Canadians on the call today are you are you tuning in today via your BlackBerry probably
not right so society changes society tells us what is what is acceptable or what we're
going to use and what we're going to exploit and what we're going to see as commodities
and and I really have to believe that this green premium is a barrier and I know I've
lived a vegan lifestyle for almost 30 years since the late 1900s I've seen so many friends
family colleagues associates say you know what it's a barrier for me the price is a
barrier the convenience is a barrier and you know what the taste is also a barrier but
we have over 1300 companies globally it's probably more than that right now that's an
old stat for my books probably 1400 or more companies globally working on alternative
protein solutions precision fermentation making meat from cultivated cells from fermented
vegetables from plants from all sorts of things that require far less cruelty than our current
food system and as a society we have proven I don't know about where you live in the UK
and Canada but I suspect it's very similar 80 percent of Americans eat fast food once
per week 37 percent of Americans eat fast food every day 20 percent of Americans eat
one meal a day in their car we have proven we don't care where our food comes from so
that's what we've got to change the food system to be more compassionate amazing thank you
Robert by the way I love blackberries I am so sad that they have been discontinued it's
such a great cell phone okay George what about you yeah so I do agree with Robert that we
obviously and innovation does help a lot for moving past ways in which we do things but
we still have to topple the mentality right obviously yeah we're not no longer taking
a horse and carriage to work like we would have done back in the day but yet horses are
still being exploited and murdered Robert mentioned the ducks as well obviously we don't
have a quill pen but yet people are still eating ducks so this is still happening to
animals so we need to still eradicate the mentality the green premium thing I don't
really agree with that thing so much as a concept because non-vegans still pay more
ultimately the vegans do for their weekly shopping budget because they're buying steaks
and all the most expensive things in the supermarket they're using cost as an excuse like no obviously
the cheapest foods all in the supermarkets are all vegan products there are certain trendy
plant-based products like Robert mentioned like you know certain plant-based burgers and
stuff which might be double the price of a of a dead cow burger but on the whole like
we all know that we can we can get a much cheaper shop by being a vegan and not buying
all those most expensive products in the shops so I think when it comes to that if someone
is being the thing is with the the thing about the cost most people who use that argument
I think are being disingenuous but the ones who are being genuine about it and they genuinely
genuinely do actually believe that it's more expensive being vegan and you know I would
be vegan but I just can't afford it well it's just easy to point them to how to live very
easily and cheaply as a vegan you can point them to the fact that the most impoverished
societies worldwide subsist on rice beans lentils potatoes noodles all those sorts of
things yep thank you George and your turn you know I'm not really sure how to address
the the green premium because I think some people you're right George do use that as
an excuse you know just to not try the vegan option just to say that it's too expensive
but in some cases I think it is true you know there is a markup for for buying things that
are vegan or that are organic that or you know whatever gluten-free whatever you name
it you know and it is part of the the pricing structure in a lot of grocery stores to to
charge that premium because it's vegan so I wouldn't like disregard that objection
completely I think we need to address it maybe differently I'm not exactly sure how it will
be effective because it really depends on who's objecting I feel like some people are
really being genuine about that criticism and some people are just using it as an excuse
but I I would say that we really have to focus on how do we get people to change their behavior
something that has been that is so ingrained in our psychology in our culture to eat meat
and to see that as completely normal and that's I think is a hurdle to get over to get somebody
to change because it's um to most people it's so normal that it's it's tough to even consider
giving that up and the idea of having to change a habit that's a lifelong habit I mean just
imagine any habit that you have right now that you want to get rid of you know whether
it's scrolling too much on the phone or um I don't know not exercising enough whatever
it is if we set ourselves a goal to change that habit imagine how hard it is to just
maintain that for a week or two right so imagine you have to now let's say completely change
your whole diet for forever like that's a really big obstacle for someone to get over
and to make that mental shift so I'm not sure but I think we really need to look into the
science of behavioral change and you know whatever that's out there to really craft
our message to make it more effective I find I find right now it's kind of all over the
place you know we just as Robert mentioned we use a lot of our ego we react very strongly
to certain things that we're angry with so we react very emotionally sometimes and that
may not be the most effective in advocating for the cause and on social media I find a
lot of times it feels a bit toxic there's a lot of you know snarky comments so yeah
I just feel like we're not coordinated in our efforts enough in pushing out that message
to the public thank you Anne by the way I want to spare five minutes at the end of this
recording for parting words so if you have a point an additional point to address please
save it for those last five minutes okay so I think we're ready for the second question
which is and you touched on that and should we advocate for veganism or reducing animal
products consumption in our approach Robert I give you the floor okay thank you so much
and thanks for allowing five minutes at the end because I think I do have some insights
and solutions to some of those issues regarding changing behavior within the food system but
now we're going to go on a adventure together okay because I prepared some notes this morning
for this topic should we advocate for veganism or reducing animal product consumption my
response might surprise some of you I've always been an ethical vegan vegan for the animals
since day one but as I spent two and a half years writing a book on how to most effectively
reduce animal suffering I came to this idea that I came up that I wrote down today to
me it's similar to the idea of advancing an organized religion or advancing some of the
key components of a particular religion what's better to promote Christianity as a dogmatic
worldview and lifestyle or to promote the golden rule will it be easier to get everyone
to become a Christian or to get as many people as possible to incorporate compassion into
their lives embracing the golden rule as just part of their lifestyle behavior and assuming
the result is a net positive based on the goals of those pursuing particular results
which outcome is more likely to be most effective or impactful I'm not a Christian but I have
more Christ-like tendencies and behaviors than most Christians because of my actual
habits value systems and actions that are largely in line with the golden rule which
is partly associated with Christianity of treating others the way I or more importantly
they would like to be treated am I therefore effective in spreading compassion or ineffective
because I do not embrace all the tenets of Christianity and to what degree does that
matter regarding an end goal I would leave this cautionary note to everyone listening
here I go again sometimes your own bias towards veganism gets in the way of doing the most
good for animals you want everyone to become vegan for the same reasons you became vegan
or because of the reasons that matter most to you you have ego wrapped up in the label
of veganism and that can oftentimes blind you from embracing some of the most efficacious
approaches to reducing animal suffering if just becoming vegan is the goal that is a
battle we will never win just like we will never live in a world where everyone believes
in the same God or shares the same ethical value system that just won't happen we can't
even agree on important topics as citizens of a single country it's audacious to believe
that someday everyone will care about animals the way you care about them if we can't even
argue on the same we can't even agree on the same God or how to treat women or minorities
or the poor or the mentally ill or other groups how can we realistically expect a society
of any significant size to agree on how to treat animals therefore what I focus on of
course I have a moral ethical imperative toward veganism I have a kind of personal abolitionist
approach but when I look at efficacy what does the most good I address this in many
chapters of my new book and I don't have time for it today but there's we have to look as
and pointed out we have to look at particular demographics who are most likely to adopt
compassionate behavior we have to look at who's making food purchases 80 percent of
all food purchases are made by women 70 to 80 percent of all meals for entire family
are prepared by women we have to look at within the United States the black community the
African-American community is the fastest growing demographic within veganism we have
to acknowledge why that is happening and how that's growing and representation is part
of it doing a plant-based body by default approach is part of it what I call a forks
over knives effect is part of it taking small incremental steps toward forward progress
which is the kaizen system is part of it my guess is that everybody on the screen would
love to have people go vegan overnight I mean I did on December 8th 1995 why can't the rest
of you but that's not the way the 99 operates thank you thank you so much Robert George
yeah so I do see the animal rights movement as an inherently abolitionist movement now
obviously I'd rather people reduced than didn't reduce if that's all we're going to get from
them if they were never going to go vegan but I don't think we should promote reducetarianism
we should promote abolitionism because when we do so people will naturally reduce anyway
if people reject that and say I'm never going to go vegan but to be fair the guy has got
a point maybe I'll buy some oat milk instead of dairy or something like that I mean this
is something I've seen in my own personal life I've never ever promoted reducetarianism
in any form in fact I specifically tell people you know no don't just cut that out why not
just go vegan but nonetheless people around me you know friends family and stuff who are
still non-vegan and non-vegan friends and family in my life they will naturally just
become reducetarians flexitarians and stuff anyway as a result of me promoting abolitionism
so that's the problem if we promote reducetarianism a reducetarian world is the most we will get
if we promote veganism yeah I know I agree with what Robert said it is it seems at the
moment an extremely unrealistic goal for a vegan world but ultimately I think there's
a big cultural aspect in that I do think every secular country in the world at least one
day will be vegan for the right reasons and we'll look back on animal slavery in the same
way that we look back on human slavery which is why I guess we should like I wouldn't agree
with Robert's analogy of the religion thing because I think we should compare it not to
a religion but a moral obligation Robert mentioned that you know we shouldn't want people to
just go vegan for the reasons that you are vegan we should just want them to be vegan
for whatever the reason is but I would say that the reason to be vegan the only reason
to be vegans is the reason that I'm vegan for the animal rights reasons if someone is
just plant-based they're plant-based they're still going to be enslaving animal elephants
at the circus they're still going to be riding horses they're still going to be going fishing
for sport but you know don't worry I won't kill the fish I'll just catch and release
and throw them back kind of thing so these people aren't vegan just because they eat
a plant-based diet put it this way I would rather live in a world where the reason that
we didn't sexually assault people was because we take the consent of the victim into account
not a world where well most of us the reason we don't do it is because we take the consent
of the victim into the account but then a good majority of people well the reason we
don't do it is because you might get an STI if you do this so there are absolutely wrong
selfish reasons to do something and I don't think we should do that at all so yeah I would
just say abolitionist message and at the same time we should also just promote veganism
for being about animal rights and we shouldn't accept it if someone says you know oh I'm
vegan but you know for my health we should correct them we say well that's not veganism
veganism is about the animals if you're vegan for your health you're still unfortunately
enslaving and abusing animals in other way and long does animal oppression continue if
we live in a world like that.
Thank you George.
I would say that like at my core and right off the bat I would think that the abolitionist
message would be the one that's most consistent and the most logical one because it wouldn't
make sense to say let's say we're talking about racism we wouldn't tell people let's
just be a little less racist instead of just saying let's not be racist at all right so
in if we draw a parallel between that and advocating for veganism it would only make
sense to say let's not abuse animal exploit them at all as opposed to let's abuse them
less or fewer of them but that being said though I do want to think about you know in
terms of numbers like I think the question requires a bit of a nuanced approach I mean
because despite the growing trend over the past several years it's still incredibly difficult
to increase the percentage of the world like the world population of vegans right we're
still currently what roughly about three percent of the population worldwide that's vegan and
it's been hovering there for a while now so it's really difficult to make any significant
headway I find and there are more there are a lot of reasons why the progress is so slow
it's because the obstacle is it's that eating meat it's part of practically every culture
unlike racism you know we can always say okay well we're all human so let's all you know
be more equal and treat each other more fairly like we all recognize that we all agree with
that but eating meat though we're not talking about another species so there's like species
are mixed in there and it's hard to get over that I find so we can't really compare that
with the other causes completely because it's not totally the same I find and another thing
I find is that we have to find like a place somewhere between being idealistic and pragmatic
so I find that advocating for complete veganism it sets a clear and uncompromising goal which
is important for maintaining the integrity of the animal rights message but given the
challenges it's worth considering the impact of advocating for reducing animal product
consumption at the same time even if that seems contradictory because I think it's possible
to hold both ideas at once and roll out both strategies and they need not cancel each other
out I think different strategies will simply resonate better with different people like
because I actually run some number just hypothetical calculations so let's say every year a person
eats let's say on average 100 animals including land animals fish and and all of the wild
and farm fish so and we're about what 7.9 billion people worldwide on our planet so
that's 790 billion animals that's killed every year for food so scenario a let's say we somehow
magically achieved 15 percent of the worldwide population that becomes vegan let's just say
a generous number even though we're only at three percent now but let's say we've achieved
15 percent of the worldwide population that's gone vegan completely so that would mean that
we would save 118 billion animals each year now if you compare that to scenario the second
scenario where let's say only 60 60 percent of the world population that reduces their
consumption of meat by 30 percent not 50 or 60 let's just by 30 if you make that calculation
you'll see that we would be saving 142 billion animals per year so the number there there's
a discrepancy there's a difference between the numbers already and and you know we if
veganism is about reducing or eliminating suffering of animals we really have to think
of the the end results the numbers and numbers I think do matter so to me we should really
push out both strategy of both reducing animal consumption as well as the abolition of animal
exploitation altogether.
Thank you Anne so now time to respond to the points made let's start with you Robert.
Yeah thank you so yeah it appears that George and I disagree on a number of things so I'll
address that I mean it sounds poetic let's let's all promote veganism and let's have
this animal rights message and all that well how's it working and I think your numbers
are wrong we're less than one percent globally vegan you have to factor in total world population
we have eight billion people and about 80 million vegans we're less than one percent
we've been doing this for 60 years how's it working it's not I also have or take issue
I mean that you know gently I take issue with the idea that vegan is the end goal I don't
think so I think reducing animal suffering is the end goal for example and there's no
ego attached to this I have all the data in my book Ryan has read it the average vegan
spare is 174 to 365 animal lives per year almost one per day I spare over a hundred
thousand animal lives per year with my approach with the vegan strong method with what I call
the strong V approach with my mega best-selling books with my tour that I'm on every single
weekend for months on end right now with all that stuff influence on influential people
who again promote sometimes a reducetarian type approach and by the way I used to scoff
at that in fact I reluctantly went to the reducetarian summit to end factory farming
I didn't even want to go I was at no interest in it but I looked at the numbers just like
Anne pointed out the numbers don't lie there's data there that we can evaluate it we can
look at it and we can see what works and we need to focus on reducing animal suffering
not just trying to get everyone to become vegan it I use I've wrote down a couple other
yeah this is a note I wrote down and we're asking people to make an entire lifestyle
overhaul change your worldview completely change everything you know about what you
eat what you what you believe how you think about animals how you think about the world
around you that's hard to do but to get someone to reduce their their level of exploitation
towards animals is so much easier to do using again what I what I call our strong V or vegan
strong method to lead by positive example and get people to replace their on average
three thousand five hundred forty calories consumed per day with as many calories from
plants instead of animals as possible and that adds up to numbers that we can measure
evaluate and look at as far as the efficacy of reducing suffering globally and again I
share all those numbers in the writing that I've done recently thank you Robert George
oh yeah I mean I agree with Robert that it's not working great but it's working better
than it ever was as in the promoting the abolitionist vegan message I know that obviously most
people in the world just aren't vegan and it seems just like the easy thing to do you
know to to get people to reduce but ultimately the reason we're all vegan to begin with is
because someone promoted the idea that actually reducetarianism is not enough if we all had
the idea that reducetarianism was good was okay simply put none of us here would be vegan
why would we if we're not hooked on the message that reducetarianism is bad that vegetarianism
is bad that flexitarianism is bad the pescatarianism is bad well I would be eating a cheese pizza
right now you know I might okay I might not have some pepperoni on it but I wouldn't be
here talking to you guys about this I wouldn't be a vegan right why would I be because it
hasn't been put straightforward enough to me that all these things are immoral to fund
so yeah look I completely agree that unfortunately it's not working great overall when we look
at the numbers worldwide of how many people are vegan but it's still working hundreds
of times better than it ever was in history because recently we have promoted abolitionist
animal rights and we've proliferated that message through social media through documentaries
like earthlings dominion all that kind of stuff and yes reducetarianism will ultimately
spare a lot of animals but it plateaus once you just have you know if you as I say again
if you have just reducetarianism and maybe you know I don't want to mischaracterise
anyone's argument here I'm sure Robert isn't saying just to promote reducetarianism because
he's a vegan after all but what I am saying is reducetarianism does plateau whereas the
end goal of veganism is absolutely well it is the abolition of animal suffering as well
so with that comes the abolition of animal is ending all animal suffering is that if
everyone in the world is vegan there's no animal oppression anymore and I just wanted
to pick up on maybe one of Anne's points as well that she mentioned it is comparable to
all the other injustice is because those injustices are deep rooted and normalised in other societies
they may not be in the west anymore but they were throughout history so we do still have
to look at speciesism in the same way that we do look at human slavery at the Holocaust
at women being stoned to death in Islamic countries because you know they will foregone
their arranged marriage people you know having their tongues cut out because they blasphemed
whatever it is we have to look at all these are normal in in certain countries and these
were normal things to do throughout history this was the norm this is where you can't
have a society where we don't do this to blasphemous what are you talking about this is crazy and
again even certain mentalities that we've had throughout history these seemed like big
lifestyle changes it might have seemed like a lifestyle change for people not to have
owned slaves for example it was completely changing the way that society functioned and
worked but nonetheless we have to aim for that because we shouldn't stand for anything
less than total liberation.
Thank you George and finally Anne.
Just to clarify what I meant when I was saying that you know veganism doesn't is isn't the
same as the other social causes I think what I meant was because the other social causes
we all start from the common ground being that we're all humans right so we were advocating
for equal rights between men and women we can always go back to the very idea that hey
men a man and a man and a woman are they're both humans but we can't say the same with
animals and humans they'll always be a part of our human consciousness that we'll always
think we're we're another species from the animals that that's I think that's the hurdle
where it's really difficult to convince everyone that that we're all the same that we all deserve
the same rights that we all deserve to not be exploited I think that's that's a lot of
the hurdle we have to overcome so so that that's what I was saying when I said that
the veganism is not it's not the same as the other social causes now we were saying about
reducing I I get what you're saying that reducing isn't is not consistent with the the message
that we should abolish you know exploitation of animals altogether but it's just I just
find it it's it's not realistic and even though we feel like if if 15 percent is hard I mean
how would we ever reach 100 you know it's so I feel like it's just not a realistic goal
so it's just it's just a matter of practicality for me so that that that's where I stand even
though at the very core I feel like the abolition abolition is the way to go but the numbers
just don't reflect that I feel so to me it just makes more sense to use both you know
both the abolitionist message as well as the reductionist one thank you and and thank you
everyone for all of those excellent answers and points and arguments I think we're ready
now for the last question for of this episode and the question is should vegans exclusively
lead the animal rights cause or put in another way can non-vegans is there a place for non-vegans
to lead animal rights fights Robert yeah thank you Ryan and thanks George and Anne this is
this has been fun I only have a few notes written for this one so I want to just take
a quick moment to just add that you know this idea that if if we should be vegan and that's
the message we should be promoting why is vegan recidivism so high it's incredibly high
people just don't stick with it I have for 30 years you've stuck with it for a while
a while a while but most don't and I also call for a moral emergency those are the exact
words that that I used in my book in fact I I quote a now former non-vegan Alex O'Connor
in my book about his moral emergency speech so I just want to clarify I'm not the guy
advocating for reducitarianism in fact I told you I scoffed at that idea and I do call for
moral emergency but I also look at the data the data the data the data and the data and
it shows that those who follow a plant-based diet even for their health and their wellness
and the forks over knives effect and they stick with it for decades it has a dramatic
impact on reducing animal suffering and normalizing a plant-based diet and making it accessible
and palatable for anyone now on to the topic at hand I literally only have a few notes
here so should vegans exclusively lead the animal rights cause using the word lead sounds
dog dogmatic and almost cult-like in a way but I understand the use of the word here
I would not want to be considered as a leader in the vegan movement but I think that to
maintain the integrity of the vegan moral value system and that ethical vegans should
actively be involved in the advancement of the vegan movement but we also need strong
allies from outside the vegan movement including those in positions of influence power wealth
and those with connections to other potential allies if we're going to grow as a movement
and I've been around for a long time again a lot of people been vegan longer than me
but I've just been around since the late 1900s watching a lot of this stuff and so many things
that we all enjoy these vegan burgers and all that many of those were not made possible
whatsoever without the investments from non-vegan celebrities musicians athletes actors wealthy
individuals I know many of these companies I work with over 125 plant-based companies
I know who invests in them I worked for the plant-based nutrition company that revolutionized
plant-based sports nutrition forever I wrote about it in my book it was led by a totally
non-vegan who ended up selling the company for over half a billion dollars but opened
up the doors to replace millions and millions of animal-based protein drinks with plant-based
ones and it normalized it and those products became the best-selling in America alongside
animal-based protein powders and such so we have to realize that we celebrate these wins
right we celebrate these wins with vegan food or with policy or or political action or whatever
forgetting oftentimes that it was our allies and wealthy donors who helped make that possible
that's even true for my own book tours I get supported by by non-vegan people who fund
my vegan outreach this would not be possible I wouldn't have a New York Times best-selling
book you know translated nine languages that really has changed people's lives I hear about
it in feedback all the time that came from non-vegans investing into my work because
they believed in me and the core principles and messages that I promote even if they themselves
are not vegan we have to recognize that also my last comment here what's working what's
not working animal consumption meat consumption if you will but animal consumption is at an
all-time low in the UK and Germany right now and that's because of all kinds of things
not just an abolition approach but because plant-based options are plentiful they're
available they're everywhere they're normalized they're popularized they're supported supply
and demand kicked in and now we see reduction of animal suffering is an all-time high in
some of those countries and we can do the same in the US and Canada and elsewhere if
we adopt those principles which is at the heart of what I'm trying to get at if 99.9%
of animal suffering is in the food system that's what we need to tackle that's what
we need to change and we have to look at the data and evidence to determine how to most
effectively do that thank you Robert and your answer
well I think vegans are naturally positioned to lead the animal rights cause due to their
personal commitment and the understanding of the issues but it's crucial to build an
inclusive coalitions that involve non-vegans as well just because we're still a marginal
group and I think we could benefit from having collaborations with you know other people
and just being inclusive basically to me it makes sense to evaluate our action based on
the outcome rather than ideology again that comes back to the question of ego right I
mean it's not so much about falling under certain label it's just we want to look at
the results and what works the best and I just think that collaborating with allies
who may not be fully vegan but who are supportive of reducing animal suffering then we can really
leverage on a broader range of resources and influence thank you Anne sorry George misstep
here I know it was your turn so George what's your answer yeah thanks and so with regards
to this question I think it depends on the type of action that we're talking about if
we're talking about things like outreach advocacy it only makes sense to have vegans at those
events I don't want non-vegans I don't know a cube of truth or whatever is talking to
other non-vegans on the street and well number one what are they going to be saying to these
people and number two why are they going to take the message seriously if it's some guy
standing there wearing cow flesh on their shoes and maybe with a big mac in one hand
saying hey you should be vegan or something like that that's just going to be silly right
but when it comes to things like direct actions or something like that yeah I mean if I have
a non-vegan friend who says I'm going to go and break into a gas chamber tonight and stop
a pig from being gassed to death I'm not going to go you can't because you're not vegan I
might pick him up on it I might say well hang on like what that's great that you're doing
this but what is the reason that you're doing this kind of thing and go from there so it
depends on the type of action I guess and when it comes to actually promoting certain
people at the forefront of our movement yeah once again they should be animal rights activists
and vegans so that we should be consistent in that regard but we shouldn't turn away
help where we can get it if Donald Trump says he's gonna donate one billion dollars to Peter
don't turn down the billion dollars just because Donald Trump isn't vegan take that money and
thank Donald Trump for the for the billion dollar injection I would say in that case
but yeah I guess overall there my my answer is kind of nuanced it all kind of depends
on what it is.
Thank you George I see a kind of overall agreement on this question Robert.
Yeah well obviously it's good to find some common ground and to be honest and I told
Ryan this this is the first debate style conversation I have had in 28 and a half years of being
a vegan because I look at my what I mentioned strong be earlier might as well say what it
is it's using our skills talents resources other strengths network generosity and volunteering
to most effectively reduce animal suffering and debating is not one of my strengths or
skills or talents and so I'm just sharing ideas based on years and years and years of
writing books on the subject of veganism so I am glad that we we agreed of course of course
if we're going to maintain the integrity and we and made this point almost exactly what
I had in my notes the exact word maintain the integrity of the vegan you know moral
value system we do need vegans at the forefront but as George said we got to take support
we can get it I I'm just using my own anecdote anecdotal experience here just on this particular
topic which I alluded to earlier I would not be where I am as far as an influential vegan
speaker and author touring like literally all over the world five continents I'm pretty
good at what I do without the funding of non-vegans and I was even I even had a a fully funded
tour for half a decade by a non-vegan company that set me out on the road to talk about
building your body on a plant-based diet that was literally the topic of conversation why
because their plant-based products were associated with it and all that but that gave me a platform
to use my championship vegan bodybuilding physique and background and my if you want
to call it charisma whatever you want to say my ability to connect with audiences that
was monumental and and that led to all the things that I do now the best-selling books
and everything and that wouldn't have happened if I didn't accept the support from non-vegans
and that's why I said even the biggest companies you can imagine the Beyond Meats of the World
and all of that they have all kinds of non-vegans you know investing into their their company
helping them grow and all of that so so really in summary and Anno I appreciate what you
said about an hour ago you mentioned grassroots movement I talk about that I've always been
a fan of community organizers and grassroots movement folks are always going to be at the
foundation of any movement but we also in order to get to a tipping point to that 10%
or 15% as you optimistically said we are going to need celebrities and influencers and allies
and look at all these people I mean how long have each of you been vegan there's a time
you weren't right look at look at these the people right now that we're getting money
or support from who could very easily be the next major vegan advocate or being an ally
and I mean Earthling Ed wasn't vegan all that long ago I told his story in the book of how
that happened it happened from a news story you know when the truck of chickens tipped
over and he had dead chickens in his refrigerator and thought of that juxtaposition right there
and questioned his own moral value system you never know you never know there are plenty
of non-vegans who are tremendous allies and our movement would not be where it is without
them I think we just have to acknowledge the facts that's 100% factual and also respected
a little bit besides saying we just need vegans and vegans only it's like having a vegan run
a business if they have no idea how to run a business you can't just put a vegan in as
a CEO just because they're vegan they have no idea what they're doing same with maybe
they have no idea how to be a grassroots organizer community organizer to get a movement going
they just happen to not eat animals and care about animals so we need people using the
right skill sets that's why I created the strong V you got to do what you're great at
and when you can apply what you're great at and allow other people to inject what they're
great at then we can move a movement forward at a rapid pace and that's how we create real
change thank you Robert I will respect George's turn now so George the mind case is yours
yeah I don't really have much to add really to anything that Robert said I mean I would
just maybe reiterate all that it was that I would said I had said before we should absolutely
take help where we can get it just while still advocating a strong vegan message and also
at the same time not being scared to point out inconsistencies that positive reinforcement
that we have with families and friends if someone is you know what Melanie Joy for example
would call a vegan ally it's good that we do accept their support and that we're grateful
for what they're doing to advance animal rights in that sense but we should also you know
say you know do you think that it you know given that you do support what it is that
we do and all that kind of stuff you know do you have you thought about being vegan
yourself so that's all I guess I would add to that I don't really have anything to add
thank you George and final response I guess I don't have much to add either but it is
a backdoor way of getting more non-vegans to come on board by accepting their help by
whichever way we can at first and later on to say well you know since you're already
helping and this is you know the motivation behind it is really to reduce animal suffering
and to stop it and also I think by letting them on board we have more chances of convincing
them than just you know having these two camps that are very opposing each other from the
get-go and I also like this idea of like effective altruism when you have like you accept money
you put your money where it helps the most whether it's to an organization that does
a lot of help so if we were to think of veganism and we have non-vegans investing in vegan
businesses how that is more helpful than rejecting their help altogether we have to see it that
way you know so like if it's something is helpful even though they're not vegans it
may actually advance more the cost than we think so it's so yeah I agree with everyone
that we definitely should get the help where we get it.
Amazing, what a wonderful way to end this exercise.
As promised I want to give you each five more minutes to make last comments maybe about
the questions that were asked or to respond to a point someone made so please go ahead
starting with Robert.
Okay and thank you once again this has been really fun my first time doing a debate style
conversation it's been a joy honored to be with all of you.
George let's go let's go back to the food for a moment you talked about well the cheapest
foods in the world are our plants people should just eat that you know and you know and maybe
they're paying more you didn't you didn't buy the green premium argument and that's
okay because again I'm most interested in listening to people's objections not our objections
as vegans but the 99 percent why do they not care about animals and to your point Anne
and I wrote this down many times the I don't care response is the number one there's obstacles
and objections about protein intake and worry about health and wellness and all that but
I don't care it's absolutely number one and to your point or someone's point many people
are aware of how animals go from turning into animals to turn into food and they still don't
care and we've seen that over and over and over.
So George why is it that that people are unwilling to change their nutritional behavior I wrote
some notes down here part of it is people do not want to give up their power and privilege
people talk about I didn't climb to the top of the food chain just to eat rice and beans
well first of all you didn't climb anywhere you inherited an incredible privilege to be
able to eat animals and and that's you know something you're choosing to do for for you
know your own reasons but part of it is people are more afraid of letting go of something
than acquiring something people are are scared to let go of power of influence of dominion
of choice of preference of privilege I didn't say that already and so yeah we have a food
system where people maybe eat plants but still exploit animals in other ways they buy a leather
wallet leather belt but I can promise you nobody I don't care who you are Kim Kardashian
nobody's buying six wallets every single day or six pairs of shoes or six hats or purses
every single day but everybody sits down to eat six times a day everyone in the western
world that has adequate access to calories I should say a billion people go to bed hungry
every night which is unfortunate so people don't want to give that up and also the what
I think is rather obvious why do people eat the way they eat sugar oil and salt it's cheap
fried food they cannot stop they cannot get enough of it they love pizza fries burgers
soda ice cream it's it's that's just the way it is so we have to understand human nature
and we have to make those products that are as cruelty free as possible and there are
many organizations like the good food institute who are working with foreign governments around
the world they have a 50 million dollar annual budget and they're working with 1400 companies
that are doing just that and also just as a fun little note here at the end I actually
wrote a 35 page paper on the most affordable food in the world and drum roll please this
is the most nutrition per cent that you can possibly get it's the mighty lentil the lentil
provide dried lentils provide the most nutrition per penny spent followed by beans oats and
rice no surprise but guess what nobody wants to eat it they don't want to give up the privilege
they want sugar oil salt taste cost convenience give it to me that's what they want that's
what we have to give them in as cruelty free form as possible thank you robert I absolutely
love lentils hooray for the lentils george your turn yeah I don't have a huge amount
to add really I agree that we do need to provide unfortunately it's the way it is we do need
to provide people with these foods I'm not I'm by no means a health food vegan myself
I would still be vegan regardless of whether there was all this amazing junk though that
we can eat but I but you know I do accept that unfortunately there are a lot of people
who are simply too selfish to to change for unless they have like products that replicate
perfectly all these things so I do think we should help drive innovation and support these
these companies in creating these amazing plant-based alternatives that are hitting
the supermarket shelves right now so for me it's it's about ultimately we have to take
a two-pronged attack here we have to drive the innovation that do appeal to people's
selfishness but we also need to advance animal rights via a very strong moral message we
need to make it very clear that animal oppression is is wrong in all forms and even though it
seems like a long and arduous uphill battle now to undertake that I do think that one
day ultimately we will look back on the way now that we that we treat animals in the same
way that we look back on all the other historical oppressions was it Leonardo da Vinci who said
there will come a time now when men such as I will look back now on the murder of animals
as we look upon now the the murder of men so yeah for me it's it's about advancing both
of those things thank you george final words yeah well I would definitely agree with the
with that strategy of advancing both the both messages I like I think it's hard because
you know as a vegan at the core it's always hard to to to to think that we can't we can
only we cannot just promote only the the ethical aspect of veganism because it doesn't feel
intuitive to just tell people to just reduce their consumption but not to try to push too
much of the the ethical aspect of it but but yeah I mean we just have to be practical about
this and and I think that the best way really is to to promote both of both messages just
because that that's we have to consider not everyone is starting from the the same standpoint
as we are because I went vegan for purely ethical reasons but that's not where everybody
starts from so we just have to you know take common sense of that that starting point for
for other people as well I think thank you ann and thank you everyone for having participated
for having accepted my invitation I'm not sure tell me but I don't think there is such
an initiative out there I don't know if there are many debates that have been done on different
ways of doing activism or you know debates that are not targeted to non-vegans debates
between vegans I hope this helped you know foster critical thinking and clarify points
for listeners or start a reflection somewhere on how what's the best way to make progress
because we need to make progress like you all stated before we're not making we want
to do more and we want the progress to go faster and this is a moral emergency so thank
you again everyone thank you for your time and yeah thank you everyone for listening
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know let's encourage more
people to take action again thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday
for a new episode thanks for putting this together this was great this was fun maybe
I should do more of these this is easy I was actually nervous for like weeks about this
like my wife oh no my first debate I got my collared shirt on I got my bottle of water
my notes I typed things up I rehearsed and timed it oh but this was it was much easier
than I expected I thought it would be much more stressful so this was very pleasant so
thank you