1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,900 My name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:11,320 The Democratic National Convention was last week in Chicago and there for a few days you 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,700 had gathered the most powerful human beings on the planet. 4 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:23,580 Influential wealthy politicians leading the party at the head of the mightiest country 5 00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:27,340 on the planet, the United States of America. 6 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:33,960 For various interest groups, this was a golden opportunity to advance their cause, to put 7 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:41,320 pressure through protests and other forms of activism on global changemakers. 8 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:49,360 And among them was one small group of animal rights activists called Free From Harm, who 9 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:56,300 used their wits to infiltrate the most elite and exclusive gatherings of that event and 10 00:00:56,300 --> 00:01:02,960 disrupt them in the most spectacular way, to keep accountable the powerful, to remind 11 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,720 them of the animal holocaust they have the power to stop. 12 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:15,740 Today I am glad to welcome the founder and director of Free From Harm, Robert Griot. 13 00:01:15,740 --> 00:01:22,240 As a communication professional for over 25 years, Robert once worked on a large food 14 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:28,760 industry accounts where he acquired a behind the scenes perspective on food branding and 15 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:29,760 marketing. 16 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:37,540 I recommend his book, Farm to Fable, the fiction of our animal consuming culture, which explores 17 00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:43,200 the powerful narratives driving our culture of mass animal consumption. 18 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,040 So Robert, thank you so much for accepting my invitation. 19 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,040 Thank you so much for being here. 20 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:49,040 It's a pleasure. 21 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,000 It's good to meet you, Ryan. 22 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:59,960 So Robert, my first question for you is, you know, my public, my audience comes from everywhere 23 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:02,800 in the world, but mostly from the US. 24 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:09,260 But for those non-US people, what's the DNC? 25 00:02:09,260 --> 00:02:11,120 That's a fair question. 26 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:16,320 The DNC is the Democratic National Convention. 27 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:25,320 And it's their big convention event to elect for the delegates in each state to elect the 28 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:31,920 next candidate for president and vice president. 29 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:38,560 And so it's a big media circus, basically. 30 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:45,820 It's all about like promotion and media attention. 31 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:54,080 There's I think I heard there were like 50,000 press passes issued by the DNC this year for 32 00:02:54,080 --> 00:03:01,680 media all over the world, many obviously in states, but even international media, lots 33 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:08,240 of Guardian, Axios, you know, all kinds of news outlets here. 34 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:14,880 Independent as well as mainstream, YouTube influencers, other social influencers, as 35 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:21,360 well as like, you know, the mainstay reporters, so to speak. 36 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:30,600 So it's kind of like the big media event of the year for the Democratic, the DNC, the 37 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,840 organization behind the Democratic Party is what it really is. 38 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,880 And for people who wonder, you know, why is it relevant? 39 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,040 You know, why is this event so important? 40 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:51,720 Well, politics in the US will influence all other countries. 41 00:03:51,720 --> 00:04:00,020 Whatever happens in the US will have an incidence on everything else in other countries, including 42 00:04:00,020 --> 00:04:06,480 everything that has to do with factory farming, non-human animals, their treatment or their 43 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,480 mistreatment. 44 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,160 So, yeah, it's the center of power. 45 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:20,800 Yes, because if you're missing an action, then things stay the same and nothing changes. 46 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:31,320 And the other, there's so many different reasons or good reasons to attend and to participate 47 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,560 in this event. 48 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:39,400 Just regardless of what your political orientation or whether you even think, whether you think 49 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,600 the Democratic Party is for shit and the Republicans are even worse, whether you think that the 50 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:51,360 establishment is, you know, you're against the establishment. 51 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,640 Personally I consider myself pretty anti-establishment. 52 00:04:54,640 --> 00:05:03,800 But the objective of one of our key objectives as a grassroots group is to leverage media 53 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:04,920 in our favor. 54 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:11,200 So we're looking for opportunities that will insert ourselves in our message, in our voice 55 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,200 into the media spotlight. 56 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:21,440 Because that's the way to, that's one path, one important path to getting more popular 57 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,520 support for our movement. 58 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:30,000 You know, it's interesting because today you published a post about a certain senator. 59 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,360 And you described how you spent, I think, an entire year trying to reach that senator, 60 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:44,520 trying to sit down that senator who is actually, I think, your senator and nothing, no response. 61 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:51,760 But then just being present at that event, you were able to talk with this person, to 62 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,720 interact with him. 63 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:54,720 Is that right? 64 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:55,720 That's right. 65 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:02,080 So one of our key organizers, Jackie, she lives in Philadelphia. 66 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:08,280 And Casey is her senator because he's the Pennsylvania senator. 67 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:11,040 I'm in Illinois. 68 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:17,960 But anyway, I worked with her on trying to get in front of Casey, trying to get responses 69 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,840 from him. 70 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:25,040 And we were particularly interested in him because he's on this very secretive, what 71 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,960 we call the Senate chicken caucus. 72 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:35,080 And so there's very little information about the Senate chicken caucus and what these powerful 73 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,440 senators are very powerful people, to put it mildly. 74 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:45,600 There's only, you know, 60 some of that senators, they represent the entire state. 75 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:55,000 They make huge decisions on our behalf, affecting a $7 trillion, somewhat $7 trillion, of the 76 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:01,520 budget, government budget, of which the farm bill and agriculture policy is about a trillion 77 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,720 and a half, just to give you some context for the amount of money that they hold the 78 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,760 purse strings for. 79 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:18,640 And so Casey is a Democrat, and he's been progressive in some ways, I guess you could 80 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:24,440 say, or speaks progressively about workers' rights and the environmental issues and things 81 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,040 like that. 82 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,200 But then here he is on the Senate chicken caucus. 83 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:34,440 And we were really scratching our heads trying to figure out why is that? 84 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,560 And what is the Senate chicken caucus all about? 85 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:44,840 Why is it that we can't get into their meetings, that they're not public, like other hearings, 86 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:50,600 they're private, which tells us that the industry and their lobbyists and attorneys are in there 87 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:58,040 because attorneys have the power to actually make meetings private, public meetings private, 88 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,360 when attorneys are involved, and that they're making big decisions that benefit the industry, 89 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,080 the chicken industry. 90 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:13,400 And so we got really interested in trying to dig into this and confront Casey and other 91 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:19,280 Senate chicken caucus members, I think there's 14 of all of them, to find out, you know, 92 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,000 what's the big secret? 93 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,480 I mean, why are you guys having these closed door meetings? 94 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,800 What's going on in these meetings? 95 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,360 Why aren't you ever talking about these meetings? 96 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,400 What's decided in these meetings? 97 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:33,400 Where's the minutes? 98 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:39,520 Why can't we access the meeting minutes so we can see what was discussed and voted out? 99 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:40,520 And who's in these meetings? 100 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:46,360 Is it industry people that are telling you what they want from taxpayers? 101 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,320 And you know, all these questions are, you know, coming up. 102 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,120 So Jackie was ignored. 103 00:08:53,120 --> 00:09:03,560 Jackie is an incredibly persistent woman, and she's really tough as nails. 104 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:12,920 And so she goes to his offices, she calls, she talks to staff and all of this, and didn't 105 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:13,960 go anywhere. 106 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:25,000 And so here we learned that at the DNC, they're going to have these Pennsylvania Dems, PA 107 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,840 Dems breakfast every morning for the four days. 108 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:34,360 And what we learned about the DNC was the place to be is at these breakfasts. 109 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,840 Each state has their own delegation. 110 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,840 And at a fancy hotel where they're staying, they have these breakfasts. 111 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,800 And famous speakers come to these breakfasts. 112 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:51,560 And it's a great way to get in front of them without having to go to the McCormick place 113 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:57,960 in the United Center, which is where the big speeches and the big power players were going 114 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,040 to be. 115 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,800 It's much more accessible to get in and out of a hotel, and much easier, less risk. 116 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:12,600 So had we known that earlier, we probably would have put a lot more focus on the breakfasts. 117 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,840 You know, none of us want to get up at five or something to be at a breakfast at seven 118 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:17,840 or whatever. 119 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,200 But anyway, we were there that morning, and we were really glad that we were there because 120 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,680 we didn't know Casey Senate. 121 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:25,880 They don't announce these things. 122 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:33,120 But not only did we that morning, not only did we confront Senator Casey, but we also 123 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:42,000 got to speak and have a really kind of an intense interaction with other Congress people. 124 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:47,960 Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who was the president of the Democratic National Convention and 125 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:48,960 all that. 126 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,840 So a lot of people just were there. 127 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:57,800 And what we did is we tried to prepare as best as we could with the talking points and 128 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,240 the tough questions that we wanted to ask these people. 129 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,360 And if we saw them, we just had to be prepared. 130 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,080 We had to jump at the opportunity. 131 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:07,840 And that's what we did. 132 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:17,240 We just, I will say I was very inspired by an organization called Code Pink, which is 133 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:18,480 based in DC. 134 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,480 And they spend their days in the halls of Congress, and they wait for meetings to come 135 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,920 out or they go into meetings and they do disruptive actions or they wait until Congress people 136 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:33,640 come out and they chase them down the hall and they get them to talk about their, why 137 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:40,120 are they voting to spend billions of dollars for a war, foreign war? 138 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:46,400 And is there allegiance to a foreign government or to the US or those kinds of questions? 139 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,680 So that was very inspiring. 140 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,360 And we thought, we can do that too. 141 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:55,160 And the DNC is a great opportunity to have lots of these people that we're trying to 142 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,640 target under one roof. 143 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:07,040 I want to get back to Senator Casey, but first, if you look at the news coverage of that event, 144 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:17,520 you see the protesters outside and even inside the main hall of the event and they are anti-war 145 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:22,360 protesters, they are pro-abortion protesters. 146 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:28,920 You have all kinds of flavors of social issues, justice out there. 147 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:37,200 And I'm wondering, did you see any protests about animal rights against animal farming? 148 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:45,380 How many animal rights organizations were present at the DNC talking about the issues 149 00:12:45,380 --> 00:12:48,360 that are important for the vegans out there? 150 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:55,080 I personally only know of one and that's only because a friend of mine, Wayne is here in 151 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,560 Chicago, works for PETA. 152 00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:06,640 And PETA was doing some public outreach, I believe, about some animal testing issue. 153 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:15,560 I don't recall exactly what it was, but to my knowledge, we were the only group inside 154 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:28,800 of events calling attention to the corruption in our government and its policy on our food 155 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:34,240 system and the need for a transition to a plant-based food system. 156 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,320 So to my knowledge, we were the only ones there for that purpose. 157 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,800 So when you say public outreach, you mean they were not even directing their activism 158 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:44,800 to the politicians? 159 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:53,800 They were directing their activism to the different people that were present all around 160 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,680 the event? 161 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:57,680 That's my understanding. 162 00:13:57,680 --> 00:13:59,000 Wow. 163 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:05,800 I hear that and I feel so disappointed. 164 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,280 I have to say so disappointed. 165 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:16,800 I mean, like we stated before, here's the DNC, this mega important event, counting 166 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:23,680 thousands of powerful politicians that will shape the future of billions of animals in 167 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:31,280 the US and maybe in the rest of the world, because like we said, the US is the most powerful 168 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:32,280 country in the world. 169 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,240 It will influence all policies around the globe. 170 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:44,760 And you have hundreds of reporters from all major channels, from all major media outlets, 171 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,360 not even in the US, but in the rest of the world. 172 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:58,000 And you're saying that you were the only one screaming and talking about defending the 173 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,560 animal rights cause. 174 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,240 To my knowledge, yes. 175 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:15,160 And I'm not making any excuses for people, but at the same time, I think it's a very 176 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:23,560 intimidating proposition for people to, quite frankly, it's intimidating for all of us. 177 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:31,280 But at a certain point, we have to make a decision whether we pursue an opportunity 178 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:40,720 because we just can't, we can't not get involved. 179 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,280 It's too big of an opportunity to pass up. 180 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,760 And I don't think a lot of people recognized it for what it is. 181 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:56,520 I think it's great that you did, but a lot of our local folks have already obligations 182 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,520 and commitments. 183 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:09,640 Most of the people that I know here in Chicago are working on fur campaigns and maybe some 184 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,980 other local things. 185 00:16:13,980 --> 00:16:20,880 But even on the issue of fur, there could have been fur protesters from wherever that 186 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:29,840 decided they were going to use this opportunity to get the fur free policy message out there. 187 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,520 And I didn't see any of them. 188 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:33,960 How did you get in? 189 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,460 How did you get your press pass? 190 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:40,480 If you can share that with us. 191 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,600 That's a damn good question. 192 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,160 And each day was a different, totally different struggle. 193 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,440 So I didn't get a press pass. 194 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,640 The deadline for press passes was way back in April. 195 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,240 So we learned about press pass. 196 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:02,420 We didn't even think about the idea of a press pass until it was like June. 197 00:17:02,420 --> 00:17:06,240 And by that time it was like three months too late. 198 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:13,020 That's how, you know, just to give you an idea, like April's deadline, that's how bad 199 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:14,400 people want press passes. 200 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,840 And they're just like cut it off in April, several months before the event. 201 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:25,240 So we have gotten into a lot of places with uninvited or unregistered. 202 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,740 We don't pay for registration. 203 00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:29,880 We don't pay for tickets. 204 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,960 Once in a while we register if it's free or if it makes sense and it seems like it's fairly 205 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:41,120 easy to do and it's not going to cost us anything or not much. 206 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:47,380 But in general, we get into a lot of places by talking our way in. 207 00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:57,320 And so with the DNC, the first day, it took us just two hours to find the proper entrance. 208 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:03,160 McCormick Place is this enormous complex, trade show complex in Chicago, which is where 209 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,300 the official business of the DNC was taking place. 210 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:14,820 And you had lots of meetings like that where you had famous people like Bernie Sanders 211 00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:17,180 show up and do a three-minute speech. 212 00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:19,120 And we knew a lot of this was going to happen. 213 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:24,520 So we wanted to get into McCormick Place and we were told it was open to the public. 214 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,400 And there was an option to register for free as a member of the public. 215 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,240 But then that deadline passed and I didn't register. 216 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,960 Some people did in our group. 217 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:42,560 But anyway, the first day I was able to get in without any credentials. 218 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,720 But it took us two hours just to find the entrance. 219 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,760 And so I got in the first day and then I came back the next day and they said there was 220 00:18:53,760 --> 00:19:02,280 some disturbance inside and that they were really limiting access and that I would have 221 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,880 to look at my email to confirm that I had registered. 222 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,680 And so I talked to three different people and they were all shutting me down. 223 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,800 They said, sorry, sir, it's nothing I can do to help you. 224 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:23,760 And then suddenly I saw the guy from Monday that let me in, this big guy saw me. 225 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,320 I said, you remember me, don't you, from Monday. 226 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,480 I said, look, I know things have changed. 227 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,300 I said, look, but I was here on Monday. 228 00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:33,300 You know I was here. 229 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:34,300 I was registered on. 230 00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:35,300 He said, okay. 231 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:37,300 He said, I'm going to do you a favor. 232 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,160 I'm going to let you in because your friends are already inside, right? 233 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,920 I said, yeah, they're already inside. 234 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:48,760 He said, but you got to promise me you're here just to attend meetings, not to do anything 235 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,760 else. 236 00:19:51,760 --> 00:20:00,440 And I felt kind of bad because part of me felt, oh, you know, I'm going to be telling 237 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,920 this guy what he wants to hear and I might be one of the activists that they were trying 238 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,000 to avoid getting in. 239 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,560 But I did it anyway for the cause because I felt like it was the right thing to do. 240 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:21,200 So I got in and so every situation was different. 241 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,320 The first disruption we did was on Tuesday night at this private members only club called 242 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,740 the Union League of Chicago. 243 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:35,400 And it's really where diplomats and like just the top crust of society have these big posh 244 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,400 parties. 245 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,440 Nobody else gets into these places. 246 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:44,200 And so we didn't know if we were going to be able to get in. 247 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,760 But we went up to the desk and they said, are you registered? 248 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,640 And we said, well, here's our name. 249 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:50,640 Look it up. 250 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,840 See, no, sorry, you're not in. 251 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,880 I'm sorry we can't let you in. 252 00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:03,080 And we said, oh, yeah, you know, so we really, you know, we were registered with the DNC 253 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:10,000 and we were thinking about getting involved in agriculture and we really wanted to see 254 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:16,200 these speakers and be a part of this event. 255 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,920 And then it was like, okay, well, what organization are you with? 256 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:27,540 So what we did is we used, there's a journalist, an agriculture journalist here called Hagastrom. 257 00:21:27,540 --> 00:21:28,540 His name is Hagastrom. 258 00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:31,220 And he's been in the business for 40 years. 259 00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:35,360 He's one of these really old school guys who knows everything about agriculture and he 260 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:39,720 has a blog and a paid subscription thing. 261 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,480 He's very well respected. 262 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,240 We told her that we were with his group, the Hagastrom. 263 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:51,640 And he literally despises us because we've disrupted many agriculture events. 264 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:58,520 So if he knew that we used him as a pretext, he'd probably be pretty upset with us. 265 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:05,160 But that's how we got in because we mentioned somebody that they recognized and we were 266 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,520 super fortunate in that context. 267 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:16,680 So I think I just have a way of trying to get into places and not always succeeding, 268 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,160 but most of the time I do manage to get our group in. 269 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,280 There was one issue, there's one, I'll shut up after this. 270 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,180 There's one other incredible story about getting in. 271 00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:32,560 At the, in Congress, there was a farm bill hearing in May, at the end of May. 272 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,480 And we didn't know this because it was our first farm bill hearing. 273 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:44,040 But there was a line that formed out of the hearing room that was hundreds of people when 274 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,040 we got there. 275 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,400 And we thought, oh my gosh, and it's not moving. 276 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,360 And the hearing's going on, it's already started. 277 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:52,200 And we're like, this line is not moving. 278 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,800 No one's going to give up their seat. 279 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,680 And we learned that the hearing room only has 60 seats in there. 280 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,240 And all those seats are basically reserved for lobbyists, industry lobbyists and other 281 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,480 like journalists and people like that. 282 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,800 But this is supposed to be open to the public, but there's literally no seats for the public. 283 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,920 So at a certain point I told my group, I said, you know what, we're never going to get in 284 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,000 by waiting in this line. 285 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,780 I said, we're going to wait until that door person is distracted and then we're going 286 00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:21,200 to slip right in. 287 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,340 And there was a split second, literally a split second when this guy was talking to 288 00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:28,080 someone on his left. 289 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,160 And that's when we went through this tiny little door into this tiny little hearing 290 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:38,400 room, which had some of the most powerful people in Congress deciding on this trillion 291 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,780 and a half dollar farm bill. 292 00:23:41,780 --> 00:23:46,360 And we got in and we stayed in. 293 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:50,460 They asked us to leave many times, but we wouldn't leave. 294 00:23:50,460 --> 00:23:57,080 So we succeeded in doing that disruption, but it took like five hours basically waiting 295 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:02,220 around, wondering whether we were going to get in and then finally finding a split second 296 00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:03,520 opportunity where we got in. 297 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:04,520 That's amazing. 298 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:05,520 That's truly amazing. 299 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:18,520 And I want to express my thanks to Mr. Haggister for being an indirect ally. 300 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:24,480 An unwilling ally. 301 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:33,480 Could you speak about your activism, the way, how the power of disruption in that event? 302 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,480 Right. 303 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:42,800 So this opportunity at the DNC and all the different events, private events, and all 304 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:50,600 these different things that were many, many opportunities all fit into this model of it 305 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,120 checked all the boxes of the things, the kind of things we look for. 306 00:24:54,120 --> 00:25:00,500 So for one thing, like I said earlier, we look for media coverage and the likelihood 307 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:02,280 of media coverage. 308 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:10,000 We look for opportunities to confront our targets, the power holders. 309 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:17,000 We look for opportunities to be in a general audience with influential people that they 310 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:24,080 know and the general public as well. 311 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:34,760 It's not just about one-on-one conversations, but about really trying to reach all of these 312 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:42,600 audiences at the same time and doing something that resonates with them even if they don't 313 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,640 necessarily agree with the message. 314 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:52,640 So like, for example, like we had these banners that kind of mocked Senator Debbie Stabenow 315 00:25:52,640 --> 00:26:00,280 for her crooked farm bill and it had a caricature of her on it and these chickens flying around. 316 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:09,400 So we used kind of humor and mockery in a way that I think got us some support where 317 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,840 we might not have gotten it if it was too serious of a message. 318 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,320 It was serious, but we also have this mockery element, this humor element to it. 319 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:25,640 And I think people had to stop and kind of absorb the visuals that we put forward, the 320 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,920 banners. 321 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,480 And I think that even with those, like many of those that probably had a knee-jerk reaction 322 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:42,200 and didn't like us or didn't like what we were there for, I still believe that most 323 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:54,800 many people respect the courage of those who are willing to stand out from the crowd and 324 00:26:54,800 --> 00:27:00,040 stand up to someone in power. 325 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:06,680 And it's a great thing to do because it's the one thing that people remember. 326 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,400 They don't remember all the boring speeches. 327 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,440 They don't remember what drinks they had or what conversations they had. 328 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,200 They might remember a couple, but the one thing they're going to remember about that 329 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:24,720 is, oh, that's where USDA Secretary Tom Vilsack got disrupted by during his speech with those 330 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,160 people, with those pink banners that had, you know, making fun of Debbie Stavanoff's 331 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:31,640 crooked farm bill. 332 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,240 That's probably what they're going to remember. 333 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,240 And that's what we want. 334 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,120 Yes, I agree. 335 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:50,360 And I would add, coming back to Senator Quasi, you prefer a reaction, whatever that reaction 336 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:59,680 is to indifference, to just the coldness of indifference to your message and to what you're 337 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:00,680 defending. 338 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:06,520 Yes, it shows that they have some stake in their reputation. 339 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:13,920 They care about their reputation and that somebody is threatening their reputation, 340 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,680 which is an important pressure point. 341 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,840 We did get ignored by some, to be fair. 342 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,560 Bernie Sanders ignored us. 343 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,640 I put my hand on his shoulder as he was coming down the stage and I was trying to be gentle 344 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,640 and compassionate. 345 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:38,760 And I said, Bernie, you know, thank you for what you just said about the climate crisis 346 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,040 and supporting labor. 347 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:50,160 I said, but will you support a just transition to a slaughter-free plant-based food system 348 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,880 for the same reasons that you think we should end fossil fuels? 349 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:59,360 The very same reasons, because it's just as destructive or more. 350 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,040 And for so many other reasons, not only just for the climate, but something like that. 351 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:12,000 And I got backstage a little bit until security stopped me. 352 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,920 And he ignored us, but he heard us. 353 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,880 And then the audience heard us. 354 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:29,560 So the audience saw someone who was very passionate and upset about this inconsistency between 355 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,960 railing against fossil fuel industry and ending those subsidies, but not saying anything about 356 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,160 animal agriculture. 357 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:44,280 So we did have a big audience to hopefully get people to think for even just a minute 358 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,120 about this disconnect. 359 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,800 I want to get back to other activist groups out there. 360 00:29:52,800 --> 00:30:00,840 How is it that it is so common for activist groups to enter a barbecue restaurant or a 361 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,440 butcher shop and be disruptive there? 362 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:18,680 But lack the foresight of thinking maybe our action would hold greater impact in the office 363 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:28,440 of our senator, among our politicians, facing the building of a lobbyist, talking to a religious 364 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,400 leader. 365 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:38,360 Why is this strategic mindset lacking in the vegan activism scene? 366 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,560 I wish I knew. 367 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,000 I think, I mean, I can only speculate. 368 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,600 I think there's a couple of things going on. 369 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:57,560 One is that people see this animal, the animal side of the food industry as such a monumental 370 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:06,040 thing that they're just not sure where they can have an impact. 371 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,040 I think that's part of it. 372 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:16,120 The other part, I think, is the intensely intimidating proposition of confronting power 373 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,820 holders. 374 00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:24,520 Because if you've been doing street activism, for example, and just meeting people where 375 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:34,920 they are on the street, you could become very good at that and it could become very unintimidating. 376 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,320 You become unafraid of that. 377 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:44,560 But then the prospect of shifting that to talking to power holders seems terrifying 378 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,120 for a lot of people. 379 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,000 But also this idea that it's just too big to fail. 380 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960 And what could we possibly do as a small group? 381 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:58,400 What I like to tell people is that everyone says we don't have enough numbers. 382 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,160 We just don't have the numbers to impact a system that big. 383 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,080 So we should just start by chipping away at the fringes and beating away at the crumbs 384 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,720 around the edges. 385 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:14,600 But my response to that is that if we look at other social movements like the suffragettes, 386 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:22,760 like the civil rights movement, like Black Lives Matter, Occupy Wall Street, ACT UP, 387 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,440 there were actually very few people at the beginning stages that were willing to do direct 388 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:33,720 action, that were willing to make that kind of sacrifice, to put their bodies on the line, 389 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:42,820 to risk maybe being hurt or pushed or ridiculed. 390 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:46,080 Very few people were willing to make that sacrifice. 391 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,960 So it's not unique to our situation or our movement. 392 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,840 And I like to tell people that because I think there's this illusion that we're somehow so 393 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:01,240 unique and our cause is so different from all these other social change movements that 394 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,120 nothing can really relate to what we're doing. 395 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,240 But I think that's a fallacy. 396 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:16,940 Actually I think in this respect, we're in the same kind of situation as the early stages 397 00:33:16,940 --> 00:33:20,720 of those other movements I mentioned where there were very few people to take direct 398 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:21,720 action. 399 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,480 But those people actually created a spark. 400 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:32,240 Those few people created the spark that was needed to get media attention, to get more 401 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,400 people inspired to want to take action too. 402 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:46,080 You mentioned lots of social causes and many of them could be identified as being on the 403 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,280 left of the political spectrum. 404 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:56,500 And of course you also crashed the DNC party. 405 00:33:56,500 --> 00:34:03,360 So I wonder, did you ever think of doing the same for the Republican party, so the conservative 406 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,360 counterpart? 407 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,360 Absolutely I did. 408 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,600 In fact, we were all ready to go to the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, which is 409 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,360 only an hour and a half from Chicago. 410 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,920 But the logistics were just very difficult. 411 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,080 And unless we were able to stay at a hotel which was like in the center of things, it 412 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:30,400 would have been very difficult to get around the logistics of things closing off and all 413 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,960 that and security and all that. 414 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,600 But I did really have my sights set on going. 415 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:45,480 And my message to Republicans was going to be fundamentally they believe in less government. 416 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:52,160 So how are they possibly, how is that possibly consistent with increasing the bailout, the 417 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,760 corporate welfare for the animal agriculture industry? 418 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:06,280 And if they really believe in less government, then doesn't it make sense to cut those subsidies? 419 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:12,320 The problem with that is that we actually do believe in subsidies, but not the kind 420 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,040 that benefit that industry. 421 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:20,120 We'd like to see them shifted to incentivize plant-based agriculture and proteins. 422 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:31,840 So I still think though, I honestly think that our message, our primary populist message 423 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:39,960 at Free From Harm is that hardworking Americans should not be bailing out an industry for 424 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:49,120 the problems that they have created, whether it be disease crises like bird flu, or whether 425 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:56,320 it be pollution, the pollution of climate chaos that they contribute to, that it's not 426 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,080 our problem. 427 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,060 We didn't create this problem. 428 00:36:00,060 --> 00:36:07,920 And therefore a $256 billion industry should be financially held accountable for the problems 429 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,440 that they create. 430 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,600 And I feel that we asked a lot of people at the DNC, but I feel like if we had gone to 431 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:21,000 the RNC and we asked a lot of different people that question, do they think hardworking Americans 432 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,600 should be responsible for those problems, financially carry the burden? 433 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,000 I believe a lot of people would have said, no, it doesn't make sense. 434 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,360 We shouldn't be paying for that. 435 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,960 I think across the political spectrum, that populist message resonates with people. 436 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,000 And that's one of the reasons why we chose it. 437 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,680 Robert, this is music to my ears. 438 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,920 Because I feel like so many vegans are, I guess there's this natural inclination to 439 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,640 being on the left, to being leftist liberals, call it whatever you want. 440 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:09,600 And so with that comes a certain hesitation to try to promote veganism among a conservative 441 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,780 audience. 442 00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:23,440 And I find it truly, again, this word disappointing, because they're also part of the problem. 443 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:33,960 And so we should be trying to gain them in our camp as a way. 444 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,940 But you mentioned how you were anti-establishment. 445 00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:46,880 Could you elaborate on that, and how we should stop looking at animal rights or veganism 446 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,880 as being a left-wing issue? 447 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,680 Sure. 448 00:37:52,680 --> 00:38:01,840 Yeah, when I think of anti-establishment, I'm meaning that the establishment, whether 449 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:08,280 it's Democrats or Republicans, there's essentially very little difference in the way that the 450 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,280 system operates. 451 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,280 And yes, it's true. 452 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:21,680 I get into this with one of my friends, and she's a great legal mind and activist, that 453 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:27,580 the Republicans certainly accept a lot more lobbying money and contributions to their 454 00:38:27,580 --> 00:38:33,720 campaigns from the animal ag industries than the Democrats do. 455 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:43,960 But isn't that an argument in itself for doing more activism directed to Republicans? 456 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:44,960 Absolutely. 457 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:45,960 Yeah, absolutely. 458 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:56,320 I'm exposing the corruption, regardless of what party is engaging in that and destroying 459 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,720 representative government. 460 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:03,200 Yeah, that's what I mean by anti-establishment. 461 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:11,720 I would do what we're doing if the only reason was that it's important for us to exercise 462 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:18,200 our freedoms and rights to protest, to speak. 463 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,560 And if we don't use those freedoms and rights, that they could easily be taken away from 464 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:23,560 us. 465 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,040 For that reason alone, we should be doing what we're doing. 466 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,240 Not to mention, obviously, we're doing it for animals, we're doing it for the planet, 467 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:37,160 and any other cause that benefits that I believe there's many other causes that actually benefit 468 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,620 from the work we do. 469 00:39:38,620 --> 00:39:44,440 But if only for that reason, people that say, well, isn't it just a waste of time? 470 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,080 They're never going to change. 471 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,800 The question has so much privilege embedded in it. 472 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:59,320 It's basically ignoring the fact that any rights and freedoms that we have today were 473 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:05,680 hard fought by activists of other generations that we aren't even honoring. 474 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:11,120 We're not even recognizing the work that they did and the results that they achieved. 475 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,520 And we're just benefiting from the fruits of their labor. 476 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:25,760 And then we have the audacity to criticize those of us today that are trying to make 477 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:26,760 change. 478 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,720 And the other thing that I love is that no one has any problem with going out on the 479 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,760 street and talking to people about veganism or animal rights. 480 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,720 But as soon as you get into the spaces of power, all of a sudden, everybody's questioning, 481 00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:42,720 well, why are you doing that? 482 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:47,800 And it's like, but they don't give that kind of scrutiny to any other kind of activists. 483 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,800 I don't get it. 484 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,680 I don't get it either. 485 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,280 Another pertinent point that I don't see represented often in all of this public discourse 486 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:06,000 around animal rights is how big ag is a threat to our democracy. 487 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:12,040 You talked about this secret hidden chicken comedy. 488 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:19,760 You talked about the lobbyists and then how you can't access your senator to talk about 489 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:31,300 this important issue that has a great impact on our health, on public health, on the lives 490 00:41:31,300 --> 00:41:38,120 of so many workers, if we stay on the human centering plane. 491 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:48,040 So could you maybe represent that point, that argument of how big ag is really this enormous 492 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,480 threat to our democracy? 493 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,320 Yes. 494 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:59,640 I would like to, on that note, I have to credit a book that is recent. 495 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:06,720 It's called Barron's, Poland, Money, Power and the Corruption of America's Food Industry. 496 00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:11,920 It was released on March 26th, 2024. 497 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,440 And it was written by an investigative type reporter guy. 498 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,760 His name is Austin Frerich. 499 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,240 And I follow his Twitter feed. 500 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:34,120 He does a lot of really incredible investigative work into this industry and just how this 501 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:43,600 whole system works between this whole lobbying game, how these trade groups set up shop in 502 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:50,080 Washington DC and have these lavish parties. 503 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:58,960 I was able to confirm what he is writing about because we have seen it for ourselves. 504 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,560 The meat industry, the trade groups, the egg industry, the dairy, they have these lavish 505 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,960 parties at these members only clubs. 506 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,060 And they have the power and access to the most powerful people in government, inviting 507 00:43:15,060 --> 00:43:19,600 them to speak, whining and dining them. 508 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:25,200 And limousines pull up, the armored cars pull up, these people come in and out. 509 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,840 But they have no time for advocacy groups like us. 510 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:39,560 And what he wrote in this book confirms the experiences we've had. 511 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,840 No access without creating access. 512 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,520 It's the only way is creating access for ourselves. 513 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:57,520 And I tell people that phone calls and emails from no matter how many hundreds, no matter 514 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,880 how many thousands are never going to be enough. 515 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:07,280 And protesting even on the sidewalk has this perception, this public perception of us being 516 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,840 on the outside of power. 517 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,560 Whereas when we get into the spaces of power, we are physically present. 518 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:23,840 And the perception is that we are reclaiming the power and that we consented to others 519 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:29,920 to govern us and that we're no longer okay with this relationship, the social contract. 520 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:36,720 And so being in that space, that physical space and seeing, looking at these people 521 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:44,120 face to face and speaking to them face to face is incredibly important for the optics 522 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,120 of the activism, I think. 523 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:54,600 Yes, I mean, I wouldn't put it, I don't know how to put it in a better way than you just 524 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:55,600 did. 525 00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,520 And, you know, of course, I will add a link to the book in the description for people 526 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,400 who want to check it out. 527 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,400 You make me want to purchase the book. 528 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,400 I think I will get it. 529 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:08,840 I think that's for sure. 530 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,680 I will get it. 531 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,400 You're incredibly fearless for doing this. 532 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:28,640 How did you get so brave, you know, to just speak up in a room filled with people who 533 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:38,840 are completely opposed and have interests, including monetary interest in being against 534 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,160 what you're pushing? 535 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,480 Well, that's very kind of you to say. 536 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:50,400 Let me first say that I don't think that I'm, I mean, I do agree that it does take 537 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:58,440 certain amount of mental preparedness and psychological orientation and courage to speak 538 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,280 truth to power and get into these situations. 539 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:10,240 But I also recognize that some activists have taken far greater risks and made far bigger 540 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:11,960 sacrifices than I have. 541 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,840 So I'm very much humbled by some of the things that I've seen. 542 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,040 Like I'll give you an example. 543 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:25,300 There's a group called the Fearless Grandmother Society. 544 00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:27,240 I think that's their name. 545 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:30,800 Oh, the Society of Fearless Grandmothers. 546 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:41,520 And I came across some video workshops of theirs and I was really moved by what they 547 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,560 were doing. 548 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:50,560 Their mission is to put their bodies in front on the line in a roadblock or in other situations 549 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:57,580 where there's risk to protect everyone else because they're the mothers, they're the grandmothers 550 00:46:57,580 --> 00:47:02,600 that are expected to play that protective role in society. 551 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,800 And I thought that was incredibly powerful and brave. 552 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,440 They're putting their bodies on the line in some cases. 553 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:18,680 And to me, that's much further evolved than what I'm doing in terms of, you know, speak 554 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,860 outs or disruptions. 555 00:47:21,860 --> 00:47:27,080 So I want to honor that because I think there's definitely levels of risk and sacrifice that 556 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:34,280 people are making and putting their lives at risk. 557 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:40,040 Like you know, all the time and all over the world that often don't get any recognition, 558 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,040 by the way. 559 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:51,240 Again, most of us privileged people think that, you know, we don't recognize the sacrifices 560 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:57,720 that other activists make and how it contributes to the freedoms that we enjoy and the lifestyle 561 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,880 that we enjoy. 562 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,280 And the media doesn't give any attention to them either. 563 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,280 The media, so the media credits the politicians. 564 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:19,680 So for example, really brief example, after years of really profound activism in the animal 565 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:28,560 a gay liberation movement with groups like Act Up in New York, all of a sudden one day 566 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,520 the Supreme Court made gay marriage the law of the land. 567 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:40,960 And Barack Obama and Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton all went on record saying that marriage 568 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:48,840 is between a man and a woman, period, for years. 569 00:48:48,840 --> 00:49:01,640 But when that Supreme Court ruling made the headlines, it was all about making the Supreme 570 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:10,600 Court the hero of the gay liberation movement, which just be getting married isn't necessarily 571 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:11,600 liberation. 572 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:12,600 It just means you can get married. 573 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,240 But anyway, that's a different issue. 574 00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:21,040 But the politicians then said Barack Obama and Bill Clinton said, I've always believed 575 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:22,040 in gay marriage. 576 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,460 I've always believed in the right to freedom to marry. 577 00:49:26,460 --> 00:49:27,720 And I don't know what you're talking about. 578 00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:33,520 They lied through their teeth and they took credit for something that they didn't they 579 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,760 actually resisted. 580 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:41,840 And none of the credit went to the activism movements that created that that made that 581 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:42,840 possible. 582 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:50,080 So the historical record is basically that the big, powerful people are the ones that 583 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,680 actually enacted that change. 584 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:58,720 And that's sad because the public will never really know what was behind that. 585 00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:07,080 But it's our job, I think, also to, you know, we got to set the record straight. 586 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:16,160 The title of my last week's episode that I published was Who the heck should we vote 587 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,400 for? 588 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:23,960 So let me ask you, Robert, who the heck should we vote for? 589 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,920 Well, that's that's a great question. 590 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:37,480 I think in our presidential election, I understand people that on the uncommitted side, that's 591 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:43,320 that there's there's an uncommitted position. 592 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:48,480 And they're going to use their vote to make a statement or their lack of voting to make 593 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,140 a statement that they don't support either party. 594 00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:56,200 I think that's one way of looking at it. 595 00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:01,720 And then, of course, the mainstream way of looking at it is that we can't let Trump get 596 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:03,400 reelected. 597 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:12,080 And so we have to vote for Kamala Harris because it's going to be a tight election and we got 598 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,280 to make sure he doesn't get in. 599 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:31,600 To me, in the end, I'm not sure that voting matters all that much because both sides, 600 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:37,040 there's very little distinction between the Republican and the Democratic side. 601 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:50,400 So for the kind of change that we're looking for, that we say we want, we need a radical 602 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,600 dismantling of the current power structure. 603 00:51:53,600 --> 00:52:01,520 We need new leadership and something very different than we have that neither the Democratic 604 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:07,560 or Republican parties will ever get close to. 605 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:14,440 And so if you want to make the lesser of two evils argument, I'm good with that. 606 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,440 I'm not going to argue. 607 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:22,680 I'm not going to debate that with people because actually that the cause that we're presenting, 608 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:33,380 we are presenting it to everyone and saying that we think this makes sense to a broad 609 00:52:33,380 --> 00:52:36,960 spectrum of political orientations. 610 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,840 So you want to vote that way or this way. 611 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,760 I'd much rather not see Trump in office. 612 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,840 I think that's probably shared by a lot of people. 613 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:56,920 But people like Glenn Greenwald and other political pundits are saying, well, he wasn't 614 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,640 really able to do that much. 615 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,800 He's talked a lot about what he was going to do and how it sounded terrible, but that 616 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,920 he wasn't really able to change things all that much. 617 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,280 And maybe he has a point. 618 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:09,280 I don't know. 619 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:14,840 Although he did get a lot of Supreme Court judges that he wanted in there. 620 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:15,840 So that's something. 621 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:27,560 And on a more uplifting note, what was the most enjoyable interaction you had with one 622 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:39,960 of those politicians who hide from the sun to do their dark farm related business? 623 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,240 What was the funniest moment? 624 00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:42,840 Or is that what you're? 625 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:51,440 Yeah, I have to say that we've disrupted the USDA Secretary Tom Vilsack. 626 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,880 For those that don't know, the USDA is the United States Department of Agriculture, and 627 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,000 it's a cabinet position that is appointed by the president. 628 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:08,920 Tom Vilsack was previously a dairy industry lobbyist before he spent 13 years as the USDA 629 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:14,920 Secretary, the most powerful person in agriculture, you could say. 630 00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,560 We've disrupted him about four times. 631 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:24,600 And every time he says something like, isn't it great that we live in a democracy where 632 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,520 people can say what they want? 633 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,200 And we have this kind of, you know. 634 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:37,960 And I turned around to him the last one on last Tuesday and I said, you're not kidding 635 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:38,960 anybody. 636 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:45,360 Your food system is completely anti-democratic. 637 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,560 It's corrupted by animal industry lobbyists. 638 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,560 And you know it because you are a lobbyist yourself. 639 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,480 So you're not fooling anybody. 640 00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,640 And he was appointed by the Democratic Party. 641 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:05,280 He was appointed by Biden, but he also served under Trump. 642 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,240 I think if I'm not mistaken. 643 00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:11,240 And he also served prior to that under other Republican administrations. 644 00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:14,520 So these people care about their careers. 645 00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:16,680 They don't care about, yeah, sure. 646 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:22,680 I'll parrot your Republican agenda or your Democratic agenda. 647 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,480 If it works, I stay in office and I hold onto power. 648 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,480 Yeah, sure. 649 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,000 I can be easily swayed. 650 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:36,920 But Robert, Kamala Harris uses almond milk in her coffee every morning. 651 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,320 That's what I read on all sorts of medias. 652 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,960 That by all means vote for her. 653 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:49,440 I think, you know, that reason alone, right? 654 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,360 By the way, we know that Tim Walz is a nightmare. 655 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,280 He brags about being the best shot in Congress. 656 00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,680 And then USDA Secretary Tom Vilsack said in an interview on Sunday. 657 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,240 Oh, I'm sorry. 658 00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:04,240 Maybe it was last week. 659 00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:12,480 He said that he knows how to Tom Vilsack knows how to put on a plaid shirt and take down 660 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:19,400 a pheasant and that that was how he could relate to rural America and right wing America. 661 00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,040 And that that's why he was such a good pick. 662 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,720 And I thought to myself. 663 00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:25,960 Right. 664 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:32,840 So pheasant hunting is basically canned hunting where they artificially breed thousands of 665 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:40,160 pheasant chicks in an artificial hatchery, just like the chicken and egg industries. 666 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:47,760 They raise them in captivity and then they release them as very tame birds with no survival 667 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:54,520 skills into hunting grounds to be sometimes these birds are so tame that you they will 668 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:56,980 not even run when a human runs up to them. 669 00:56:56,980 --> 00:57:02,320 And you'll see these canned hunters actually kick the bird into the air to shoot at them 670 00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,120 at point blank range at like five or 10 feet. 671 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:16,140 And that's considered having a good shot, like being having some kind of shooting skill. 672 00:57:16,140 --> 00:57:24,820 So like when you know about pheasant hunting and you hear something like that, you realize 673 00:57:24,820 --> 00:57:36,720 just how cynical and maligned someone like Tom Vilsack is that he would be willing to 674 00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:43,560 deceive us into thinking that that was some kind of skill and that that's what's going 675 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:51,320 to make him, you know, brave, looking like a real, you know, strong man or whatever to 676 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:52,320 the right wing. 677 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:58,560 And that's pretty, pretty disgusting. 678 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,960 I did not know about that. 679 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:12,080 I'm not surprised that and without mentioning his ties with the dairy industry. 680 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:17,280 And let me ask you this question because I'm very curious. 681 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:27,200 All of those, you know, Democrats, politicians, they all must know a vegetarian and even vegans 682 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:28,840 in their lives. 683 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:36,360 Since most vegans and vegetarians are liberals and we know, you know, they have higher degrees 684 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:37,440 and all of that. 685 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:45,400 So they're most likely part of that circle of friends or who knows what that composes, 686 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,880 you know, and the community of those people. 687 00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:59,160 So why are those vegetarians and vegans not, you know, going to their friends, their politicians 688 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,720 friends and asking them, you know, what are you doing? 689 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,600 You should know that this is not good. 690 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:10,600 And, you know, so have you ever thought about that? 691 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:11,720 Yes. 692 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,860 And I don't claim to know. 693 00:59:15,860 --> 00:59:22,920 But I what I speculate is that what I see on social media and just the chatter that 694 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:31,960 I hear is that we need to disregard all this until they get elected. 695 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:39,280 And then we can hammer them for what they said and what they think they're going to 696 00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:40,280 do. 697 00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,280 Okay. 698 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:51,520 I mean, either way, I think it should be out there. 699 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:56,520 And I think, like you said, we should we should hold people accountable. 700 00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:03,800 I mean, again, it goes back to the, you know, someone's going to come back to the argument 701 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,320 of the lesser of two evils and make that argument. 702 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:13,720 It's the same kind of argument, though, that people make about like welfare reforms, like 703 01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:19,160 trying to get corporations to go cage free and saying, like, at least it's a step in 704 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,640 the right direction. 705 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:27,360 But then there's there's a lot of nuances in that because a lot of times it benefits 706 01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,400 the corporations. 707 01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,340 It gives them the humane base PR move that they need. 708 01:00:34,340 --> 01:00:35,840 And then it's just a pledge. 709 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:42,760 So they're not even required to be audited and to prove that they actually did adopt 710 01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:44,140 the change. 711 01:00:44,140 --> 01:00:47,480 It's just simply a pledge. 712 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,080 And so they might not do it. 713 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:54,240 They you know, and I think we should be strong. 714 01:00:54,240 --> 01:01:00,200 You know, we should that's not holding corporation or person accountable in either case. 715 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:05,840 But if people want to wait until they get elected, OK. 716 01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,960 You know, so be it. 717 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,480 Do you think there is a filter? 718 01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:19,040 You know, I'm thinking of vet school, you know, often there is an interview before getting 719 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,480 in the veterinarian school. 720 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:31,320 And if they discover you're vegan or vegetarian or you have this animal rights inclination, 721 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:36,800 they will most likely reject you and reject you as a student. 722 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:42,720 Do you think there is something like that with those political parties that they don't 723 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:50,240 want anyone who is sympathetic to the animal rights cause or who is surrounded with vegans? 724 01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:56,080 Or, you know, no, I don't know that they. 725 01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:03,280 They're singling out that issue is something to disassociate themselves from necessarily 726 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,760 so much as they are. 727 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:13,520 Looking to please a wide spectrum of constituencies that have different interests and trying to 728 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:20,200 juggle their messaging so that they don't piss off one over the other. 729 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,720 And that's the problem with being a politician. 730 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:33,680 If you choose this profession, which obviously some people need to be, you have to. 731 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:38,200 You have a lot of special interests to juggle, and I think you have to make some hard choices 732 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:46,560 about what you really believe in and what you want to see the future to look like. 733 01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:52,800 And you have to listen to constituents, but you also have to make hard decisions that 734 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,520 you think benefit the greater good. 735 01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:05,520 But politicians today are opportunistic and more career driven rather than mission driven. 736 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:17,600 And so the nature of politics is corrupted by that kind of, you know, narcissistic pursuit 737 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:22,680 of career over public good. 738 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:29,680 And that's something that I think getting money out of politics is a key thing to work 739 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:30,680 on. 740 01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,020 It's also something that can align us with so many other movements. 741 01:03:34,020 --> 01:03:39,640 We talked about allies, we talked about finding common ground with other movements. 742 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:45,600 Well, getting money out of politics could go to such a great length to solve the problem 743 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,340 that we're looking at. 744 01:03:47,340 --> 01:03:51,720 We want animal ag money out of politics. 745 01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:57,760 Other groups want fossil fuel money out of politics or big banks money or pharmaceutical 746 01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,960 industry money out of politics. 747 01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:08,920 They all represent this common idea that this is damaging a representative government. 748 01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:15,160 It's corrupting our elected officials that are serving us and we need to take back that 749 01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:16,160 power. 750 01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:23,320 So that's the underlying problem that we're dealing with. 751 01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:28,080 And while most of our movement like that has anything to do with you'll notice that most 752 01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:34,160 of the groups that are working on the farm bill have very specific modest demands. 753 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:38,800 There's the safe act that they want to pass to protect horses. 754 01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:46,000 And then there's the eats act, the eats act, which is undoing prop 12 in California, which 755 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,560 were modest protections for farmed animals. 756 01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:54,760 They want their all the groups are rallying about how important it is that we stop the 757 01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,080 eats act in that language. 758 01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:02,400 But they're not actually addressing the underlying problem, which is money, animal ag money in 759 01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:03,800 politics. 760 01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,480 And there's always going to be an eats act. 761 01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:14,440 There's always going to be pernicious type of maneuver by animal ag and their politicians, 762 01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:21,360 their elected Congress people that they're allies to pass anti animal, anti planet, anti 763 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:26,720 climate mitigation laws and protect their industries. 764 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,680 Will we address this issue of money in politics? 765 01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:36,440 So we need to be really, you know, talking about this much more. 766 01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,000 And these groups aren't saying a word about it. 767 01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,000 Very true. 768 01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:47,520 Robert, this has been an amazing conversation. 769 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:54,000 And my admiration for you has increased tremendously. 770 01:05:54,000 --> 01:06:00,240 I wanted to ask, you know, do you have anything more to add before I stop the recording? 771 01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:01,240 I'm good. 772 01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:05,320 I feel like I've my voice is almost shot. 773 01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:14,680 So I think I unless you have more questions, I feel like I'm in a good shape. 774 01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:16,320 Well, let's let's stop here. 775 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:17,680 Let's stop here. 776 01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:19,560 And please come back to the show. 777 01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:20,560 Truly. 778 01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:21,560 I would love that. 779 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:22,560 Amazing. 780 01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,640 So, Robert, once again, thank you. 781 01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,960 Thank you so much for having taken the time to be here. 782 01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:31,400 It was my pleasure and it was great to talk to you. 783 01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,280 Thank you everyone for listening. 784 01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:38,160 I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage 785 01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,600 more people to take action. 786 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,520 Again, thank you so much for caring. 787 01:06:43,520 --> 01:07:03,120 And I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.