1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,160 Welcome to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:10,400 My name is Ryan and have you ever been disappointed by our political class thinking that our dearly 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:16,680 held values of compassion as vegans were simply not represented? 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,680 Feeling politically homeless? 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,160 Well, today let's confront those sentiments. 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:27,720 Let's have an open conversation on the left, the right, and the place of veganism in that 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,720 political theatre. 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,240 To discuss this topic, I have with me Joel Matthews. 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:39,500 Joel is a writer and academic preparing to publish a book called Human Supremacy, which 10 00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:45,760 is a fascinating reflection on the role of religion and Western culture in our exploitation 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,280 of animals. 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:53,800 He has thought deeply about society and often shares his insights on social media. 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,080 Visit the link in the description below to connect with him. 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,480 Thank you Joel Matthews for being here. 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,400 Welcome to the show. 16 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,800 I was truly looking forward to this conversation. 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:11,160 I'm curious to know how you identify on the political spectrum and in preparation for 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,740 this interview, I decided to take the political compass test. 19 00:01:16,740 --> 00:01:22,600 I think it's an online test everyone can take and it's very interesting because they show 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:28,240 you where you are on the political spectrum in terms of the left and the right. 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:35,600 And then they also have another indicator which is the authoritative left or right and 22 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,880 then the liberal or libertarian left and right. 23 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:47,960 And when I did the test, I was pretty surprised with the results because I was shown to be 24 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:53,860 more on the left and more on the libertarian left, but not that far from the center. 25 00:01:53,860 --> 00:02:02,760 So I was wondering, where do you locate yourself on the political spectrum, landscape, all 26 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,120 of that? 27 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,000 This is a really good question. 28 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:19,200 I've always described myself as someone who is politically on the left and very liberal. 29 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:28,120 And writing this book and talking about and thinking about the treatment of animals and 30 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:39,440 others in general, it kind of reaffirms my commitment to others and helping and supporting 31 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:40,880 others. 32 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:52,800 And on the basis that I don't live and no one lives in a vacuum, we're all fundamentally 33 00:02:52,800 --> 00:03:01,040 connected, interrelated, and the product of others and other systems and fortunate enough 34 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:11,240 to have opportunities based on existing systems and society. 35 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:19,000 And so I don't exist in a vacuum. 36 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:26,120 The opportunities that I've been given in education are the product of my parents, their 37 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:37,480 socioeconomic background, society's treatment of them and how it's affected me. 38 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:51,520 And so I have a very close relationship with society and contributing to society. 39 00:03:51,520 --> 00:04:01,600 And so in that sense, I would describe myself as someone who's on the left. 40 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:08,520 To be honest, I don't know how this would feed into liberalism. 41 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:17,320 I understand that libertarianism is much more prominent in North America. 42 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:24,400 It's not really not often discussed or it's not discussed in the UK. 43 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,800 It doesn't feature in our political discourse. 44 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:40,920 I think maybe because of the geography of the UK, we are literally, physically always 45 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,720 close to government, close to London. 46 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,320 I was in the United States. 47 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:56,080 I have got friends who I visited several years ago in Kansas and they are physically, geographically 48 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,560 very, very far away from Washington, DC. 49 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:09,840 And I think that that does have an ideological or psychological impact on individuals' relationship 50 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:10,840 with government. 51 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:17,280 But in the UK, we're always close to London. 52 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:19,880 You can't get that far away. 53 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:25,840 And so the political discourse is either left or right. 54 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:32,760 And so to answer your question, I would say on the left. 55 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:40,240 That's a good point you're bringing because, yes, my audience is pretty much international. 56 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:48,040 I would say I have more American listeners than anything else. 57 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:58,840 And it's weird how left and right are adapted to those different cultures. 58 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:05,920 So for instance, when I think about conservatives, Canadian conservatives, they're nothing like 59 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,600 American conservatives. 60 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Like in Canada, for instance, the debate on abortion, that has been closed for a few years 61 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,080 now, actually maybe a decade or more. 62 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:26,480 But it is still an open debate in the US and you still have conservatives in the US who 63 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:35,800 oppose it, who oppose the pro-choice argument. 64 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:43,440 And same thing with gay marriage in Canada has been legal since, I think, 2005. 65 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:50,680 So it's weird how there are those different definitions of the left and right. 66 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:58,800 It's not truly universal, which makes me a bit not suspicious, but distrustful a bit 67 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,540 of that political compass. 68 00:07:00,540 --> 00:07:06,440 I don't know if they take into account the country or your culture, but it's truly not. 69 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:19,040 I don't feel it's a universal, there's a universality to this left and right paradigm. 70 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:27,720 When you bring up the United States, the United States is the introduction of the kind of 71 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:37,760 conflation between the political realm and the religious theological realm. 72 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:45,880 Maybe I would suggest that the political left and right is us human beings as citizens and 73 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,480 our relationship to society and government. 74 00:07:50,480 --> 00:08:01,240 I do have an explanation for the United States and their relationship with things like abortion. 75 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:16,120 I think that stems from the United States origin of the movement of the Puritans having 76 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:23,120 an extremely potent religious views. 77 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:32,520 On paper, of course, 200 years later, there were secular founding fathers who wrote in 78 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,560 the Constitution separating church from state. 79 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:47,560 But I have a very good metaphor for the strange situation in the United States, because of 80 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:56,440 course on paper, it is secular, and yet in reality, it is very religious. 81 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:08,640 The metaphor I have is that when cars were introduced into the UK, legally it was written 82 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:22,840 into our law that to flash our headlights in a car in the UK, that meant I'm here and 83 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:30,600 I'm going to move forward, and be careful because I'm about to move forward. 84 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:38,300 However, when cars were introduced, drivers decided, and still to this day this is how 85 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:48,480 we operate, when we flash our lights, it does not mean watch out, I'm about to move forward. 86 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,400 It's the opposite. 87 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,040 It means you go first. 88 00:09:53,040 --> 00:10:03,720 In other words, the public have collectively rejected what's in the law, and we've just 89 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:04,720 changed it. 90 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,960 I think that's what's happened in the United States. 91 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:18,720 Written in the Constitution, there is a separation of church and state. 92 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:24,560 Let's go down to the Carolinas, and I don't think there will be many people who will acknowledge 93 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:29,560 that. 94 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:42,760 The potency of the church, still in the 21st century, is the main reason that is offered, 95 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:50,640 and your explanation for that is because unlike the UK, in which the church is written into 96 00:10:50,640 --> 00:11:02,080 our constitution and governance, in America it has been separated, and so in a sense religion 97 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,880 is fighting for its life, whereas in the UK we don't have to. 98 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:14,680 In the UK we are surrounded by churches, it's a fundamental part of our culture, we have 99 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:20,080 religious kings and queens. 100 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:26,640 If you're religious in the UK, in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, there's no problem. 101 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,440 We've got religion forever in a sense, whereas in America there's this constant threat that 102 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,960 it's going to disappear, it has to continually advertise itself. 103 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:47,080 And so that produces the kind of paradoxical situation in which you've got a secular America 104 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,840 which is more religious than a religious England. 105 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,520 That's fascinating, that is truly fascinating. 106 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,280 I love your analysis of the situation. 107 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,900 Let me go back to my first question. 108 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:12,040 So you identify as being on the left, which is pretty typical in the vegan community. 109 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,520 And I want to ask you, why is it the case? 110 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:21,840 Why are most vegans on the left? 111 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:34,800 Because they have an underlying acknowledgement of the interconnection of all others that 112 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,800 can suffer in the world. 113 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:44,800 And that awareness and connection is one of compassion. 114 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:53,960 I would suggest, and I know this may be very contentious and controversial, but the political 115 00:12:53,960 --> 00:13:11,040 right to be conservative, an English conservative, that political view is fundamentally uncivilised. 116 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:29,120 As I said, no one exists in a vacuum, whether you're a billionaire or a well-heeled right-wing 117 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:41,120 politician, you are the product of some very fortunate conditions, circumstances that has 118 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:50,160 allowed you to occupy the space that you're in. 119 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:57,400 And yeah, I think that's my explanation. 120 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:07,160 I think the contentious view that I have is that the political right is fundamentally 121 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,000 uncivilised. 122 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:17,360 But wait, the word uncivilised, I usually hear it from right-wing pundits. 123 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:25,160 They're the ones using most this word, civilised, or the civilised world. 124 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:34,080 So how can you associate this word, and actually its opposite, uncivilised, with those same 125 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,600 right-wing people? 126 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,600 Because it's just simply not true. 127 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:50,640 I can't state that heavily enough. 128 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:56,280 It's not true because it's inaccurate. 129 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:08,760 To be civilised is to cooperate productively with each other, whether it's a small community, 130 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:18,320 whether it's a tribal community in sub-Saharan Western Africa or in Western secular societies, 131 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,320 just cooperating and acknowledging that we're all interconnected. 132 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:31,240 And of course, right-wing pundits in North America, they would like to categorise left-wing 133 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,840 movements as being uncivilised. 134 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:47,160 But when you just have to just a cursory look at these movements, show us to be the opposite. 135 00:15:47,160 --> 00:16:03,160 Let me phrase that, or give another perspective to this question of why do most vegans identify 136 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:09,400 on being on the left, or at least being liberal, not being conservative. 137 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:16,640 Why aren't more conservatives adopting the vegan philosophy? 138 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:23,480 What are the obstacles, mind obstacles that stop them from considering seriously the vegan 139 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,480 argument? 140 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,200 Yeah, that's a very good question. 141 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:36,280 I think it would go back to their relationship with society and others. 142 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:48,280 In a political perspective, we're of course talking about human beings. 143 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,560 Obviously the vegan conversation is broader than that. 144 00:16:53,560 --> 00:17:06,280 But I would say that this demonstrates the depth or awareness or the intellectual depth 145 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:14,520 of the vegan conversation because it acknowledges the very latest insight and understanding 146 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:23,520 of the natural world, which is that human beings are part of all life on Earth. 147 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:31,000 We have all emerged and evolved on this planet together. 148 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,320 The human race, human beings, we're not aliens. 149 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,880 We haven't appeared. 150 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,080 We've all emerged together. 151 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,360 So human beings are animals. 152 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,920 The very notion of species is fluid. 153 00:17:51,920 --> 00:18:06,640 And vegans, I don't know whether you'd call more sort of intellectual vegan people, we 154 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:14,040 know this, we're very aware of this. 155 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:22,600 Whereas people on the right, forgetting all non-human animals, people on the political 156 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:31,400 right, they almost by definition in the UK at the very least, don't care about all other 157 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:37,280 human beings and society to begin with. 158 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:49,320 To this day, the political discussion is anchored to particular ideologues, most notably Margaret 159 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:58,040 Thatcher in the 1970s, who famously said that there's no such thing as society. 160 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,320 So there you have it. 161 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,360 There it is almost in black and white in a sense. 162 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:17,160 There is just a fundamental rejection of the very notion of society, which is a, you know, 163 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,440 you can have that view. 164 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,600 But let's see if you still have that view, if you have a broken leg or a pregnant partner 165 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:34,600 and you're in urgent need of health care or the police, at some point you will be relying 166 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:42,320 upon community, friends, family, social services. 167 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:53,000 And yeah, and I think in the largest possible scale, these particular ideologies aren't 168 00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:04,160 sustainable, this selfish, uncivilized approach and attitude towards the world is unsustainable 169 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:13,040 and will contribute to the end of the species, but that's only the biggest possible scale. 170 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:23,160 You recognized how religion was a big chunk of the identity of the typical conservative 171 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,380 person. 172 00:20:25,380 --> 00:20:33,800 And I wonder if religion is playing a role here in stopping people from considering again 173 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,360 the vegan argument. 174 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:41,940 And there's a piece of news that I absolutely I'm obsessed with it. 175 00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:44,480 This is from the US. 176 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:51,840 So in 2023, there's the I think they're called the Temple of Satan, something like that. 177 00:20:51,840 --> 00:21:00,640 They decided to expose to put a behemoth statue inside the Iowa State Capitol. 178 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,560 A satanic temple has set up a display inside the Iowa State House. 179 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,980 It's the holiday season and even secular government buildings display decorations for holidays 180 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:16,080 that are rooted in religion like Christmas trees and menorahs for 14 days. 181 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:21,980 The satanic temple has erected a display alongside these major religious symbols inside the rotunda 182 00:21:21,980 --> 00:21:23,800 of the Iowa State Capitol. 183 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,840 Lucien Greaves, co-founder of the satanic temple, spoke to KCCI. 184 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,880 We're going to really relish the opportunity to be represented in a public forum. 185 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,520 We don't have a church on every street corner. 186 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,080 Though the temple went through the correct administrative channels to present in the 187 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,680 rotunda, the display is getting pushback. 188 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:50,360 One, I hope people realize spiritual warfare is real, that there are evil satanic forces 189 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,160 that are trying to infiltrate our state. 190 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:59,080 And for those of you who don't know, you know, that is like the head, like a satanic head, 191 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:09,720 you know, it's a clear symbol of satanism and, you know, clear anti-Christianism. 192 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,760 Anti-Christian sentiment. 193 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:21,080 And of course they did that in the name of freedom of speech. 194 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:32,060 So you are allowed to be explicitly religious in our, you know, political spaces. 195 00:22:32,060 --> 00:22:34,000 So we're doing the same. 196 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:42,200 And you should not be offended by our religion, you know, as we are also tolerant of yours. 197 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,760 So that was the exercise, an exercise in free speech. 198 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:53,040 But I read the situation like, you know, I found it so fascinating that so many, you 199 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:59,640 know, Christian Americans and conservatives, you know, Republicans were deeply offended 200 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,720 by that Bahamian statute. 201 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:10,480 That if you present them with an Iowa, you know, slaughterhouse footage and you show 202 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:22,680 them the evil of what is being done to cows, pigs and the rest, they still eat their bacon 203 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,640 and they'll still, you know, sleep well at night. 204 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,740 Yet the statute itself, the symbol, that's what's offensive. 205 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:36,800 That's what's, you know, evil, not what's happening in the slaughterhouses. 206 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:43,200 So what is the role played by religion in all of this? 207 00:23:43,200 --> 00:24:01,440 So I would begin with how human beings or any individual engages with the world. 208 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:09,600 And after 2,000 or 3,000 years of human philosophy, there are two clear schools of thought. 209 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:19,760 There are two ways, two ways, possible ways in which human beings engage with the world. 210 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:32,480 The first is through the senses in a naturalistic, physicalistic way, direct, quote unquote, 211 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:44,040 direct engagement with the world, and it's through the senses that we acquire information, 212 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:49,280 data, and we put that together and interpret the world. 213 00:24:49,280 --> 00:25:03,040 The other is through thinking or the rational self, but thinking, contemplating alone, and 214 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:12,040 we can build up a picture of the world through our thoughts and ideas. 215 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:21,080 I stated in my book, and I have often stated that I don't know, I don't know which is the 216 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:36,360 best method, but I have a lot of evidence which I would suggest it is the, a natural, 217 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:45,760 honest, empirical engagement with the world that presents us with the best chance of survival 218 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:59,880 in the world and the most ethical engagement with it and others that can suffer. 219 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:08,880 And so the problem and the challenge that religion has is that by definition it is fundamentally 220 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:19,880 rooted in revelation and individual, individual's ideas about the world. 221 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:30,280 So when we talk about North American Christians, the origin of North American Christianity 222 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:43,000 is with Abraham, and Abraham was walking in the desert and he has been recorded as stating 223 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:51,040 that he had some kind of engagement with God that presented him with a particular covenant 224 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:56,080 protecting his immediate family and grouping. 225 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:05,200 And so immediately we have exclusivity, we have moral exclusivity. 226 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:14,080 He's only interested in his immediate family or close grouping. 227 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,680 And so the problem, the problems stem from there. 228 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:27,680 I propose that we engage with the world with what I describe as a natural attitude, a naturalistic 229 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:40,800 way, an honest, ideally unbiased engagement with others that are suffering. 230 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:54,680 And so we're now in the 21st century and we see Christians in Iowa who cannot, their compassion 231 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:01,880 for non-human animals has been catastrophically damaged. 232 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:09,800 Their ability to engage with these animals has been entirely distorted by these particular 233 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:19,440 religious ideas of humanity, the human species being fundamentally unique with this special 234 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,600 wall surrounding it. 235 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:35,640 And as I said, I don't have the fundamental answers, but I am suggesting that as a catastrophic 236 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:44,560 moral oversight to have these particular ideas and allow all these animals to be killed entirely 237 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,680 unnecessarily. 238 00:28:47,680 --> 00:29:01,320 And so on balance, it's a religious approach to the world is, has fundamental flaws and 239 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,680 far greater than a naturalistic approach. 240 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:14,240 I can crystallize this in quite simply. 241 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:26,440 Since the scientific revolution, we now know that the earth, our planet, disregarding the 242 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:37,520 climate crisis, that the earth has a limited lifetime because of the lifetime of our sun. 243 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,840 We know that because of science, in other words, a naturalistic engagement with the 244 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,280 world. 245 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,640 If it wasn't for that naturalistic engagement and the insights that we've gleaned about 246 00:29:50,640 --> 00:30:01,680 the world, we would still have people of religious faith or more broadly an idealistic approach 247 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:11,360 to the world, which is this thought-orientated engagement with the world, contemplating and 248 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:20,840 discussing things, and the earth would die, including all these religious people of faith. 249 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,840 It is the scientific naturalistic engagement, which at the very least is now shows us the 250 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,520 finitude of planet earth. 251 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:39,000 And already in the 1960s has demonstrated that we have the ability to leave this planet. 252 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,680 And so on that basis, I rest my case. 253 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:52,120 We're talking about Christianity here, but would you feel comfortable putting that same 254 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:58,240 analysis applying it to other Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam? 255 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,040 Absolutely. 256 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:11,560 They are fundamentally morally exclusive, and I would respectfully say that they are 257 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,600 on that basis, they are morally reprehensible. 258 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:24,860 As someone who is interested and has a commitment to the alleviation or ideally the abolition 259 00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:26,960 of suffering in the world. 260 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:35,040 You either, so I ask people of faith, whether they're a Muslim, a Jew or Christian, are 261 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:41,400 you interested in the suffering of others and the alleviation of that? 262 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,720 You either are or you're not. 263 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:57,760 And I suggest that whether it's Christians, Muslims or Jews, they are not engaging and 264 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:09,800 receptive to the experience of the gay community, the trans community, or indeed women. 265 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:19,040 If you listen carefully, you'll hear the experiences of people who are excluded and depressed and 266 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:26,440 their civil rights have been withdrawn. 267 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,800 I have, I'm not interested in their particular ideas about the world. 268 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:39,400 What I am interested in is the suffering of others and others, of course, includes anyone 269 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,480 that can suffer and that includes non-human animals. 270 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:51,680 Having said all of that, you know, having truly shed light on the problem with the right, 271 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:58,760 I still accept the fact that there are strong arguments out there for adopting a vegan diet 272 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:05,480 and lifestyle that could be presented to a right-wing person. 273 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:17,040 For instance, the place of government, the power of the government and how limiting that 274 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:23,840 is a vegan argument because we don't want the government to give subsidies to private 275 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,480 companies. 276 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,800 That should be a right-wing thinking, you know? 277 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:38,080 So do you also accept that there is a strong right-wing argument for veganism? 278 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:44,760 And I think the best one who represents that is Matthew Scully. 279 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,640 Actually, he wrote an entire article about that. 280 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:58,040 I should have prepared better and gave the title, but it's something like the right-wing 281 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,400 for veganism, something like that. 282 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:09,160 He published that a few years ago and he goes in depth in details on what would be convincing 283 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,840 for a conservative person. 284 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:21,800 So do you accept that there is a good argument to be made and directed to right-wing people? 285 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,800 Yes. 286 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,040 I'm probably not the best person to... 287 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:39,200 Or maybe I am, I'd have to practice, but I would have to privately translate my ethical 288 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:51,360 language to cater to what I would consider an uncivilized right-wing political outlook. 289 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:57,000 And I think you're absolutely right. 290 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:04,720 Even the ethics aside, we now know that the main contributor to the climate crisis is 291 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:07,080 animal agriculture. 292 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:17,120 And if there is one thing that defines the political right, it's arguably conservation 293 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,240 tradition. 294 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,720 And I would say the underlying sort of existential motivations for that, which are expressed 295 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:39,360 in these political adjectives, are the maintenance of an individual's family and legacy and power. 296 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:51,680 And so, of course, if we have a climate crisis and we have no climate, these right-wing family 297 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,240 legacies cannot exist. 298 00:35:55,240 --> 00:36:01,680 And so I would suggest that you're absolutely right. 299 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:14,940 Maybe vegans have to translate or kind of reduce down the scope, the ethical scope, 300 00:36:14,940 --> 00:36:23,560 maybe even taking ethics out of the equation and showing them that the right-wing people 301 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:34,080 will not be able to maintain their family legacy and power in society if the climate 302 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,240 is under experiencing a crisis. 303 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:42,920 And so we should encourage them to eat. 304 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:50,040 I personally would say, kill no and harm no animals. 305 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:58,960 But maybe if we're trying to communicate to people on the right, we should be taking a 306 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,600 more, a welfarist position. 307 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:10,080 But it's extraordinary that, I mean, I've actually said that because I'm passionately 308 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,080 an abolitionist. 309 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:20,840 But the reason why I suppose I now found myself talking about a welfarist position is because 310 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:26,200 I'm aware that I'm engaging people who, from the outset, say that they don't care about 311 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,040 society and that's human society. 312 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:38,840 But, I mean, reflecting on what I'm saying in the moment, I do have faith in humanity 313 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:50,440 and I, with my book and my approach to people and the world, I have great hope and I personally 314 00:37:50,440 --> 00:38:01,680 am aiming and targeting young people who are not being, having, being entrenched in these 315 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:10,800 particular exclusive ideologies. 316 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:22,200 And so, yeah, if we can, if we can focus on young politically right orientated people, 317 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,800 maybe we can, maybe we can talk to them about ethics and compassion, but maybe the older 318 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:38,960 generation, we have to talk about climates and a welfarist scope, if that makes sense. 319 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:39,960 It does. 320 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:51,640 And I am of the opinion that our priority should be animals, non-human animals, their 321 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:52,640 well-being. 322 00:38:52,640 --> 00:39:03,520 So, although it might make some of us uncomfortable with adopting that stance and trying to build 323 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:12,080 that bridge with people who are not on the same political side as we are, we should be 324 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:18,800 reminded of that, that animals are the priority here, that we're doing this for them, not 325 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,800 for us. 326 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,480 Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. 327 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,840 Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not a diet. 328 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:38,320 It's not, it actually, it isn't about climate, climate in itself. 329 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:47,480 I have a lot of good friends who are climate activists and I say to them, you know, what, 330 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,000 the first question is which climates are we talking about? 331 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,120 Are you interested in the climate? 332 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,160 When you say climates, are you talking about the climates on the moon? 333 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,400 And of course they're not, they're talking about the climates on Earth. 334 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,680 So I say, well, that's very interesting. 335 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:08,480 What is it about us and Earth's climate that makes, that warrants us to be so concerned? 336 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,320 And of course, we're back to animals. 337 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:21,360 So the climate, ironically, just like the Earth's atmosphere is a, the climate protesters, 338 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,880 their main subject is a thin veneer. 339 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:30,760 You only have to ask two or three questions and we're back to others that have the ability 340 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,760 to suffer. 341 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,760 Exactly. 342 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:44,200 So there are always, we're in summer here, except for, I think Australia and on the Southern 343 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,200 hemisphere. 344 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:55,000 But there are, there have been lots of wildfires here in America where I am, I bet in parts 345 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,440 of Europe, in the few forests that you have left. 346 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:09,800 And the thing is every time there's a wildfire, I look at the news and they're talking about 347 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:17,040 how it's horrible that it's linked to climate change, that it's putting pressure on all 348 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:25,080 sorts of communities, that it's, you know, polluting the air and the air quality, but 349 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:32,320 they never, never, they never talk about the animal, the non-human animal victims who are 350 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:38,240 being, you know, they're burned alive in those horrifying fires. 351 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:45,800 And they meet their end in the most horrifying way. 352 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:54,440 And what, you know, they're not even worth mentioning, not even quickly how many animals 353 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,760 have died in that forest fire. 354 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,760 Yeah. 355 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:03,960 Is this reporting in, as you said, is this in Australia or in the Southern hemisphere? 356 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:14,600 Well, I, well, it's general, you know, general, like for instance, right now, as we're talking, 357 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:23,080 it's August and there are lots of news coming from British Columbia here in Canada and they 358 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:33,960 have lots of wildfires and no mention, absolutely none about, you know, the animal lives cost 359 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,480 of those natural disasters. 360 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:37,480 Yeah. 361 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:38,480 Yeah. 362 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,600 No, it is strange. 363 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,920 I don't, I don't, I don't have an explanation for that. 364 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:54,680 I mean, I am aware that the climate crisis has a, or the environment in general has a 365 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:01,440 PR problem in that we can't, it's not tangible. 366 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,280 We can't immediately see it. 367 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:10,680 I mean, it's on the, on a quite a large scale. 368 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:18,600 And currently journalists and the media, they're not doing a great job at bringing it closer 369 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:27,560 to home and connecting it with the reason for, let's say, particular, the movement of 370 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:33,160 migrants and asylum seekers in and around Europe. 371 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:41,840 So in the UK, particularly in the past week, we've been witnessing the most horrific scenes 372 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:56,800 on the streets involving essentially modern racists and right wing fascists, young idiots 373 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:04,560 doing Nazi salutes who can barely hold a coherent sentence together. 374 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:17,000 And the, the, the origin of these, these people and their lack of coherent thought is with 375 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,680 the media, I think. 376 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:31,160 We have with recently up until about maybe 10 years ago, we've had terrible tabloid, 377 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:36,240 a culture of tabloid journalism. 378 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:42,240 And it's extremely lazy. 379 00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:45,120 And yeah, they've done that. 380 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:53,400 I'd say that it's the media in general, which is lacking and has a fundamental part to play. 381 00:44:53,400 --> 00:45:04,040 And most notably, it needs to translate or communicate the science of the climate closer 382 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:12,920 to home and explain to people that the reason that they hate people from Pakistan is not 383 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:21,160 because of their skin colour and these terrible, ridiculous, morally reprehensible attributes 384 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:29,880 that they subscribe to particular skin tones, but it's because of the climate crisis. 385 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:38,920 It's the climate crisis that has caused people to, to move around. 386 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:46,280 And yeah, I would suggest that journalists, they have a part to play. 387 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:54,000 So yeah, going back to these scenes of forest fires, it's a curious situation because I 388 00:45:54,000 --> 00:46:02,000 would have thought that showing particular animals in horrible situations, that is good 389 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,080 to use the modern terminology click baits. 390 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:14,240 But yeah, no, if they're not using that, then I'm not sure why not, because I'm sure that 391 00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:16,760 would grab headlines. 392 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,520 And it's a great shame that they don't bring that to the public's attention wherever they 393 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,560 are in the world. 394 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,640 Well I looked up the numbers. 395 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:35,320 Do you remember the Australian wildfires that happened, I think in 2019 or 2020? 396 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:43,240 I think they were big, like it, and every news outlets was covering that. 397 00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:51,320 Would you want to guess, you know, how many animals lost their lives in those wildfires? 398 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,160 Like if you had a number in mind? 399 00:46:55,160 --> 00:47:02,280 I mean, depending on the types of animals, it would have to be beyond, I mean, it would 400 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,240 have to be close to a million or beyond a million. 401 00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:12,160 Well, I looked it up and according to various, you know, wildlife nonprofits and all of that, 402 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,440 the number is three billions. 403 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:21,880 Academy fellow Chris Dickman first estimated that half a billion animals had been killed. 404 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,160 But as the fires continued to rage, he now puts that figure at over a billion. 405 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,760 And that number doesn't include frogs, bats, fish or insects. 406 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,720 So a lot of species that have small populations or small geographical distributions, if the 407 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:43,600 fire affects the entire habitat where they occur, then they're at risk of imminent extinction. 408 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,760 And even if they survive the fires, they still must deal with the loss of habitat and food 409 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,960 and the threat from feral animals such as foxes and cats. 410 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:53,960 Wow. 411 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,400 Which is, this is astonishing. 412 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:07,520 This is just the number that just, and again, even as us vegans are not truly aware of the 413 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,000 depth of that disaster. 414 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:19,280 But yeah, we don't talk about them, the three billion lives lost in those gigantic wildfires. 415 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:28,600 I think that there's an old saying that an individual person can be highly intelligent, 416 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:37,080 whereas people en masse are stupid and behave accordingly. 417 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,040 So I think that's absolutely right. 418 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:49,840 When I see these people voting in right wing fascists into modern 21st century government 419 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:56,560 buildings, the explanation I have for that is that we have to remember that despite our 420 00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:02,600 modern technology, the ability for us to travel from our home planet to our nearest moon, 421 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:09,800 and us walking around with essentially computers in our pockets, we are still animals. 422 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:20,280 We are still saddled with the same evolutionary, biological, basic impulses. 423 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:26,200 And so on that basis, we can be stupid and dangerous. 424 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:32,800 And I think that in order for us, if we're interested in surviving as a species, we do 425 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,600 have to think about things more long term. 426 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:46,760 We have to continually, constantly place the grand scheme, the largest macro scale at the 427 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:59,440 forefront of our minds, whether it's the conversations about the climate or voting in political leaders. 428 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:07,640 It's amazing that people are more interested in asylum seekers than the climate. 429 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:15,560 Other than believing that the earth is flat, it's got to be one of the most stupid beliefs 430 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,120 that you can have in the 21st century. 431 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:29,960 And so, yeah, we need to be continually reminded of the grand scheme of things. 432 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,920 Yeah, so I just think it would be important to add to that. 433 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:45,920 Well, given that right-wing people are usually the furthest away from our position and are 434 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:52,960 playing against the interest of animals the most, given that, and given the fact that 435 00:50:52,960 --> 00:51:05,800 there are plenty of right-wing solid arguments that we could present them, my question, which 436 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:11,360 always frustrates me and is always in the back of my mind, is why are we not making 437 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:12,840 those arguments? 438 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:21,520 Why are we satisfied with staying in this left-wing vegan echo chamber? 439 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:27,000 Why are we not welcoming right-wing people? 440 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:32,520 Why are we not putting more efforts where they need to be? 441 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,480 What is this lack of flexibility from our part? 442 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:46,800 And I have to say, I tried with this podcast, I tried to play with daring ideas, and I invited 443 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:56,080 two wonderful people who identify as being right-wing to Americans, and the barrage of 444 00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:05,000 just hostility I got from everyday vegans from that initiative, accusing me of the worst, 445 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,000 because what? 446 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,640 We had a conversation with two right-wing people. 447 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:09,720 Those are your neighbors. 448 00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:16,080 Those are half of your country population, and those are the people you should be making 449 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,680 the vegan arguments to. 450 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:24,240 And those right-wing people were vegans. 451 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:25,240 They were. 452 00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:27,000 And why not? 453 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,320 Why not invite them? 454 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:38,180 Why not put shed light on them and show that it is possible for the next person who identifies 455 00:52:38,180 --> 00:52:40,880 as being conservative? 456 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,680 So can you explain that to me? 457 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:59,400 Yeah, I would say that the best chance of persuading someone, I should say it around 458 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:08,440 the other way, young people offer the best chance of considering our views, whether they're 459 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:17,480 politically, they come from a politically left household, or a politically right conservative 460 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:28,920 household, because young people, there's debate about whether this is specific to the post-war 461 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:45,080 side of human history, but young people are innately revolutionary, compassionate, idealistic. 462 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:54,200 And that is why I, with my book, I'm carefully and cautiously being divisive. 463 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,120 I am not interested. 464 00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:01,560 I have a limited lifetime. 465 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:10,360 I want to spend that time focusing on the people who present the best chance of listening 466 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,480 to compassionate approach to the world. 467 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,920 And those people are our youth. 468 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:27,920 There is a lot of hope with our youth, and I don't see it with the older generation. 469 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,280 Of course, these are great, grand sweeping stereotypes. 470 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:45,720 But I am more focused on our extraordinary, brilliant young people. 471 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:52,080 And yeah, I'm not interested. 472 00:54:52,080 --> 00:55:00,000 When I do street activism, for example, I'll talk to someone, and I can see that they will 473 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,760 tell me that I'm not making any impact whatsoever, and they walk away. 474 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:06,360 And it's very frustrating. 475 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:11,880 And I'll speak to some other members of the group, and they'll say to me, Joel, don't 476 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:20,120 do that, because if you weren't here, he's now just behaving and carrying on with his 477 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,520 life regardless. 478 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:28,780 You shouldn't focus on him because he was going to do that, whether I was here or not. 479 00:55:28,780 --> 00:55:34,180 It's the people that I do make an impact with. 480 00:55:34,180 --> 00:55:43,520 And I would suggest that it's with our young people that offer the most hope. 481 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:52,360 There's evidence to show that young people are the more, as I said, liberal and more 482 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:53,360 left-wing. 483 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,800 There is an old adage, which is that we are born liberal and die conservative. 484 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,360 There's various reasons for that. 485 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:13,200 But I think I recognise the potential in young people in taking up moral consideration of 486 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:14,200 non-human animals. 487 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:24,760 And I want to make this presentation as exciting and engaging as possible. 488 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:30,920 Young people stereotypically like to rebel against their parents. 489 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:41,760 And so I want to incite and encourage a compassionate and rational revolution. 490 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:50,780 And parents are perfectly entitled to get angry at me and to say that I am being irresponsible 491 00:56:50,780 --> 00:56:53,780 and divisive. 492 00:56:53,780 --> 00:57:00,880 I'm certainly being divisive, but you're more than welcome to join the side of compassion. 493 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,240 And not harm animals. 494 00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:04,240 Yeah. 495 00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:11,040 And so basically, to answer your question, is I would say that the way I see it is that 496 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:21,280 I'm aiming my conversation towards the people that statistically offer the best chance of 497 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,880 consideration of our viewpoint. 498 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:33,640 But how would we know since there are no initiatives targeting right-wing people? 499 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,680 You talked about how some arguments don't resonate with people. 500 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:44,040 Well, if we're not talking their language, if we're not talking about governmental subsidies, 501 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:54,800 and even there is a pro anti-abortion argument for veganism, I'm sure you're aware of it. 502 00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:03,880 But if we're not talking, if not using this language, then how can we even hope to resonate 503 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:09,880 with people on the right wing of the political spectrum? 504 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,200 Yeah, that's a good point. 505 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:19,160 I think, yeah, I'm not sure. 506 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:24,800 I would suggest that there is evidence. 507 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:35,920 Did you say that there isn't a great deal of data or initiatives in the first place on 508 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,240 vegan outreach towards right-wing people? 509 00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:40,240 Yeah. 510 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:44,320 I mean, who is doing the outreach right now? 511 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:52,480 I know of one group, I think they're called Vegan Conservatives UK. 512 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:53,920 And I think they're the only one. 513 00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,920 I tried to contact them, get them on the show, no answer. 514 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,800 I don't even know if they are active. 515 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:08,320 I know of a few Facebook groups of conservatives out there, but that is grassroot and mostly 516 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,520 not really, it's not an outreach effort. 517 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:20,800 It's mostly a way for conservatives to try to find community and support because they 518 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:27,980 don't find it in the vegan community since vegan community is mostly left-wing. 519 00:59:27,980 --> 00:59:34,000 So where are the initiatives targeting right-wing people? 520 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,360 I think, yeah, it's a really good question. 521 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:42,920 I don't know. 522 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:49,000 I haven't actually looked into it. 523 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:56,920 I would still suggest that, again, to use another philosophical quote, you'll never 524 00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:02,560 jump into the same river twice. 525 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:08,100 In other words, a river is constantly flowing and changing. 526 01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:11,920 It's not a static entity. 527 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,560 And that is the same for the human race. 528 01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:21,400 And to be perfectly blunt, the older generation or the... 529 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:28,040 I'm now aware that I'm equating or conflating the political right with the older generation. 530 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,040 But yeah, maybe I should stick to the political right. 531 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:38,600 I would say going back to the older generation that to be blunt, these people, these ideas 532 01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:47,360 are going to die away, pass away with them. 533 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:57,160 And those ideas are stereotypically uncompassionate. 534 01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:05,800 And so I would suggest that that's not a bad thing in the interests of the welfare of existing 535 01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:07,800 people in the world. 536 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:18,280 But no, yeah, so for the people on the right, yeah, I absolutely take your point. 537 01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:28,720 I think the people, the political, the subgroup of humanity that are, that do identify as 538 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,240 being on the right is far more potent in North America. 539 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:37,160 And it's not something that we have seriously considered in Europe. 540 01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:47,720 And I think you're absolutely right to actually consider and pursue. 541 01:01:47,720 --> 01:02:03,160 And with the aspects of the vegan movement, which is climate change and maintaining our 542 01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:12,560 species, but maybe when it comes to the political right, focusing on maintaining their particular 543 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:20,000 society and their particular class of people, people who look like them, speak like them, 544 01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:25,280 have the same skin colour. 545 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:34,600 And yeah, that is a really good, sophisticated ambition, I would say. 546 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:43,040 Yeah, fortunately, in Europe, we don't quite have that sort of stretch in our political 547 01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:44,720 bandwidth. 548 01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:56,880 The our, certainly English, politically right, my politically right, voting people are not 549 01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,880 as far away from the left as they are in the United States. 550 01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:02,840 If that makes sense. 551 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:10,080 It makes sense, and I agree with you that older people tend to be more conservative. 552 01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:17,300 But that words me because all of those young people who we're targeting and we want them 553 01:03:17,300 --> 01:03:21,860 to become vegan, first of all, they don't have purchasing power. 554 01:03:21,860 --> 01:03:30,200 And then once they grow up, chances are they'll go to become more right wing. 555 01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:35,160 That's what we see in terms of studies that have been done on the topic. 556 01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:42,160 Once you start paying your taxes and look at the role of the government, and I guess 557 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:50,240 psychologically, you become more and more attracted to the right to conservatism. 558 01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,600 So there is a big problem there. 559 01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:58,120 I mean, we should also be present in that stage of their lives. 560 01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,160 Yeah, you're absolutely right. 561 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:08,800 It's not something that I can, I've considered as someone from the UK and Western Europe. 562 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:15,520 There is a, well, I mean, I think France has just voted in or there is a rise on the right 563 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:24,200 in France and there certainly is in countries more East like Hungary. 564 01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:28,600 But no, you're absolutely right. 565 01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:37,840 And I think that is an important initiative for the vegan movement to pursue. 566 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:46,880 Yeah, it's not something that I've particularly considered because of the kind of relatively 567 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:52,920 smaller bandwidth. 568 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:58,920 Maybe that's not the right terminology, but the political spectrum, I should say. 569 01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:06,080 And so it isn't as a significant issue here. 570 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:11,280 But no, these things should be pursued. 571 01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:20,080 And yeah, this is, yeah, I mean, arguably, this is more important than the discussion 572 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:26,320 in the UK because the North America is larger with a much greater population. 573 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,960 Yeah, it's a really, really good point. 574 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:39,720 The origin of my book was with my background in philosophy and theology. 575 01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,720 It's not so much with politics. 576 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:50,680 And so yeah, I may have to leave that to someone else to pursue because it's very difficult 577 01:05:50,680 --> 01:06:03,920 for us all to advance the moral consideration of non-human animals in all directions simultaneously. 578 01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:05,280 So we're back. 579 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:10,520 We had to stop the recording and start again. 580 01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:18,440 This time, I think one day has passed since we stopped. 581 01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,840 That's the wonders of podcasting. 582 01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:28,920 You always have some unforeseen circumstances that lead you to do things. 583 01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:33,200 But yeah, that's also the magic of editing. 584 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:41,200 You don't have to listen to an entire day of silence before getting to this. 585 01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:49,760 OK, so Joel, before we end this conversation, I have two punchy questions for you. 586 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:55,160 Here's the first one. 587 01:06:55,160 --> 01:07:03,160 We talked about the philosophy of left versus right and how there is this place for veganism 588 01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,080 wherever we go on the political spectrum. 589 01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:09,160 That's one thing. 590 01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:16,680 But then when we think about the politicians and the political parties, I see lots of vegans 591 01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:30,280 who again tend to be liberal or on the left find that leftist parties and leftist politicians 592 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,040 are more on their side. 593 01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:38,200 And that is something I haven't seen, maybe on the margins. 594 01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:45,080 But I feel like every political party and every politician, wherever they are on the 595 01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:53,000 political spectrum, are speciesist and are against animal liberation and are alien to 596 01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:54,000 veganism. 597 01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:59,940 And let me give you a quick example from American politics again. 598 01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:08,440 So recently, you know, Kamala Harris has, you know, true, chose a new VP. 599 01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,840 I think his name is Tim Walz. 600 01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:21,640 And interesting how Tim Walz, this person considered a radical left by the right, is 601 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,680 a hunter. 602 01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,000 He's a weapon carrying hunter. 603 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:31,000 And in a time honored Minnesota tradition of deer hunting, Governor Tim Walz teamed 604 01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:35,880 up with hunters from across the state, officially launching the gun deer hunting season. 605 01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:36,880 I grew up hunting. 606 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:38,440 I said I'm a big pheasant hunter was my thing. 607 01:08:38,440 --> 01:08:40,840 But we hunted deer and things growing up. 608 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,920 And picking this up as the governor in this was just incredible. 609 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,440 My host, Jim Vots, had me out in one of the most beautiful piece of property you could 610 01:08:48,440 --> 01:08:49,440 see. 611 01:08:49,440 --> 01:08:51,000 We watched deer for an hour and a half. 612 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:55,360 Turkeys passed up a shot on a doe waiting for the big deer, the big buck. 613 01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:56,960 But that's the way it goes. 614 01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:06,440 And then they revealed they published the first Tim Walz ad, I think on TikTok. 615 01:09:06,440 --> 01:09:07,480 And what do you see? 616 01:09:07,480 --> 01:09:15,760 I think in the second or third picture frame of the video they released of him promoting 617 01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:16,800 him. 618 01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:26,280 You see him feeding milk to a poor calf in a dairy farm. 619 01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,600 Governor Walz visited a dairy farm in Lesour to highlight the state's work on agriculture. 620 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,100 Earlier this year, the governor signed an agriculture bill that provided new support 621 01:09:34,100 --> 01:09:39,160 for the ag industry, includes new investments for dairy farms, grain and livestock producers, 622 01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:42,000 broadband, farm safety and emerging farmers. 623 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,560 Twenty, thirty years ago, the price of milk was still the same. 624 01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,040 So that tractor cost a heck of a lot less than it costs today. 625 01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:50,040 Diesel fuel is 80 cents. 626 01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:51,480 Not what it was. 627 01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:55,120 The agriculture and broadband bill provides four million dollars for the Dairy Assistance 628 01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:59,480 Investment Relief Initiative, along with 10 million dollars to establish the state's first 629 01:09:59,480 --> 01:10:01,660 grain indemnity fund. 630 01:10:01,660 --> 01:10:04,000 So there you have it. 631 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:10,080 That's the typical leftist politician. 632 01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,680 That's how sympathetic they are to the vegan cause, in my opinion. 633 01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,760 That is a great illustration of it. 634 01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:27,720 And then you have the political activists who love to preach about compassion and inclusivity 635 01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:35,520 and how we should be mindful of the environment. 636 01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:45,400 And then they stuff their mouth with steak and dairy and that hypocrisy is just it angers 637 01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:46,400 me. 638 01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:47,400 It angers me so much. 639 01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:53,320 It's so shocking because at least the right will proudly talk about hunting and all of 640 01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:54,320 that. 641 01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:59,840 But then the left has this opposite discourse versus their actions. 642 01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:07,000 So I'll let you first comment on that because I know you've and I encourage people to visit 643 01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:08,520 your social media. 644 01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:13,320 You post a lot about that hypocrisy. 645 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:22,480 I mean, I would say that politicians are they just reflect and they themselves are part 646 01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:26,800 of society. 647 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:36,640 They are human beings, too, despite some of that strange behavior. 648 01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:45,160 And we talk about one of the pioneers of the animal rights movement. 649 01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:54,480 Peter Singer wrote a book entitled The Moral Circle or he would refer to our expanding 650 01:11:54,480 --> 01:12:06,680 moral circle, beginning with the rights of women, people of color, different sexualities. 651 01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,800 Sorry about that. 652 01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:13,600 Turn that off. 653 01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:21,840 And yeah, it's now we now see it seriously for the first time, spreading to the moral 654 01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:23,680 consideration of other species. 655 01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:39,440 And I think it will it may just take a few more generations to impact the political class. 656 01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:48,440 So as we were talking about before we started recording that the you know, we've got we've 657 01:12:48,440 --> 01:12:55,080 got to come from somewhere and there is always progression and advancement. 658 01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:58,960 That's what we see throughout history. 659 01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:08,520 And so, yeah, I have great faith that in future decades to come, we will have politicians 660 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:13,520 who who will be who will identify as vegetarian and vegan. 661 01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:20,520 And a quick follow up question, do you think it is even possible for politicians because 662 01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:26,160 we talk of them as our representative, but can they even and I'm getting philosophical 663 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:35,360 here in your lane, is it even possible for them to embody the interests of millions of 664 01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:43,360 voters and of nuanced and complex philosophies? 665 01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:48,240 And we talked about how relative the left and right was. 666 01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:54,200 So you know, what do you think of that? 667 01:13:54,200 --> 01:14:05,840 I think it's just a case of education and putting investment into education to seriously 668 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:17,280 adhere to a commitment to raise the level of awareness amongst the majority of people. 669 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:32,480 I think that we have you can compare the consideration of animals to other rights that we see within 670 01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:35,080 humanity. 671 01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:51,160 We don't despair and worry that we are going to that we're going to just walk around or 672 01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:53,840 we don't kill each other. 673 01:14:53,840 --> 01:15:02,920 We've put in place some legality surrounding the murder of other human beings. 674 01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:06,600 So and that's we now take that for granted. 675 01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:14,360 Of course, it does happen, but it's not acceptable to kill someone on the high street because 676 01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,240 they've bumped into you. 677 01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:23,880 And so it's just a case of shifting the dial a little bit further along. 678 01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:26,080 And we have done that. 679 01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:38,800 And yeah, I just I see that as something that is in a way kind of inevitable, I think. 680 01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:40,040 I love your optimism. 681 01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:42,480 I hope your vibe. 682 01:15:42,480 --> 01:15:51,480 Okay, as a last question, Joel, and again, thank you for your time. 683 01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:55,920 What made you want to write this book? 684 01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:06,120 And I'm saying that with the understanding of how from having talked to other writers, 685 01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:12,560 it's such a big commitment of time, of efforts of brainpower. 686 01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:17,880 So why why did you decide to write this book? 687 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:28,400 So I studied philosophy aspects of theology and cosmology. 688 01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:33,200 And I worked with a theologian and cosmologist. 689 01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:45,680 And it was 20 years later or so after realizing what we do to animals, that the consideration 690 01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:54,320 of animals was not once mentioned by my by the theologian I worked with, who happens 691 01:16:54,320 --> 01:17:00,760 to be a wonderful, kind and caring man. 692 01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:09,880 And I just considered that a catastrophic moral oversight. 693 01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:15,960 And so I decided that this needs to be rectified, corrected. 694 01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:26,380 I see what I'm doing as comparable to the moral consideration of women and the gay community 695 01:17:26,380 --> 01:17:31,240 with the church's view of same sex marriage. 696 01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:35,640 In other words, they've incorporated these things to a certain degree. 697 01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:48,080 And I want for the church to for them to incorporate the moral consideration of other life on earth. 698 01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:57,040 And what keeps me going is that I just cannot bear the witnessing, violence, cruelty and 699 01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:58,040 suffering. 700 01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:08,640 And I just astounded when I hear people suggest that there's anything other than other anything 701 01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:14,400 other more, anything more important than trying to alleviate the suffering of others in the 702 01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,000 world. 703 01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,200 It just seems so obvious to me. 704 01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:27,680 It might I may be fortunate if I can say it like this in the I kind of experienced bits 705 01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:37,000 of anxiety myself in the past and having that first hand experience. 706 01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:43,480 It gave me an insight into the experience of suffering to some degree. 707 01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:49,440 And when you are experiencing that, it's the most terrible thing, but it's the most important 708 01:18:49,440 --> 01:18:53,200 thing. 709 01:18:53,200 --> 01:19:03,000 And so I just have this innate commitment to alleviate these things for others, because 710 01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:06,360 I wouldn't want to be in that situation myself. 711 01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:14,560 And so, yeah, if I can help correct this, then I'm going to because I don't know of 712 01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:21,560 anything else that's more important with the finite time we have on earth. 713 01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:30,360 I want you to comment on something that came to my newsfeed. 714 01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:33,480 And that is what happened to Robert Sheik. 715 01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:36,080 I don't know if you're familiar. 716 01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:40,800 He wrote a book called The Impactful Vegan. 717 01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:47,800 And I welcomed him on the show, you know, a couple of times. 718 01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:49,400 And I read the book. 719 01:19:49,400 --> 01:19:56,840 It's a great book and I encourage people to get the book. 720 01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:06,560 And then later on, he wrote a newsletter in which he describes how he was not able to 721 01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:12,960 yes, he was able to publish the book, but he was not able to sell the book. 722 01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:19,760 And that made him incredibly depressed and he wrote a whole newsletter. 723 01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:24,360 He has a personal newsletter about this. 724 01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:25,360 It's heartbreaking. 725 01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:27,000 Let me read just a few lines. 726 01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:33,680 You know, he says, I didn't have a plan B. I went all in on the best book I have ever 727 01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:38,640 written hoping that it would resonate with readers, have a strong performance and help 728 01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,080 take my writing career in a positive direction. 729 01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:43,640 I gave it everything I had. 730 01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:48,680 I bet on myself and I was wrong. 731 01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:58,960 And he goes on and on on the just depressing, just realization of that. 732 01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:06,360 And then I thought maybe it's just because we're talking to a niche of readership. 733 01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:09,200 Maybe his expectations were just too great. 734 01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,640 You know, how many people are vegans? 735 01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:16,560 And then how many people who are vegans are interested in doing activism? 736 01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:20,000 And then then you go down the. 737 01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:22,000 Yeah. 738 01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:29,000 And I was thinking, you know, what would you say to Robert Sheik and how would you react 739 01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:31,840 to what happened to him? 740 01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,040 Yeah, I mean, I completely sympathize. 741 01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:43,120 And with that experience, it's absolutely awful to end up in that. 742 01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:48,720 Not that it's not a realization, but feelings that you're in that temporary space that the 743 01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:54,680 world and other the majority of people aren't listening. 744 01:21:54,680 --> 01:22:02,960 I mean, there is something to be said that, you know, the phrase being ahead of your time 745 01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:04,120 comes to mind. 746 01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:06,840 I mean, that literally. 747 01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:10,640 Maybe maybe the case. 748 01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:19,440 What I would say is that and something that I I talk about online and is part of my book 749 01:22:19,440 --> 01:22:29,120 is that with any rights movement, as we've seen in history, they are rights activists 750 01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:32,760 are demonized. 751 01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:38,800 Veganism is methodically distributed out in order to keep them at the periphery, in order 752 01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:43,080 to maintain status quo. 753 01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:44,800 And this is happening. 754 01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:49,840 This happens with the vegan movement. 755 01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:59,800 So much so that the negative connotations which are conjured in the minds of people 756 01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:09,400 who eat animals arrives with the just the word vegan alone, which is why I don't I rarely 757 01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:10,400 use that word. 758 01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:18,280 And I rarely use that word because I feel that I'm using the language of people who 759 01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:20,360 eat animals. 760 01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:29,640 I feel that it's a it's a box that we are encouraged to climb into and we are moved 761 01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:34,840 to the periphery of the discussion. 762 01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,960 I'm in the future. 763 01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:45,520 People won't use the word vegan in the same way that there is no word for not racist or 764 01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:46,520 not homophobic. 765 01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:53,080 It would be strange to introduce to someone at policy your friend and say, oh, this is 766 01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:54,520 my friend. 767 01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,800 He's not homophobic. 768 01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:02,400 If someone said that, you'd think, well, OK, well, I didn't think that they were. 769 01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:07,840 And that's because the majority of people are not homophobic to a certain degree. 770 01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:11,240 And it depends on where you are in the in the world and in the country. 771 01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:18,200 But fortunately, there are lots of spaces where it's unacceptable. 772 01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:27,240 And so I want to represent and I want to occupy the normal, compassionate, rational middle 773 01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:28,240 ground. 774 01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:30,840 I'm not a vegan. 775 01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:33,280 I don't eat vegan food. 776 01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:37,720 I'm a normal, compassionate person that eats food. 777 01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:45,680 And it is you that eats and pays for animals to be killed. 778 01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:49,320 I want to occupy the normal middle ground. 779 01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:57,680 And so the reason I mentioned that is that with my book is that I'm trying to not talk 780 01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:03,080 about vegans and veganism or even animals as such. 781 01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:11,360 I'm talking about violence, violence or moral exclusion and oppression and then subsequent 782 01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:12,360 violence. 783 01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:17,600 And this is violence towards the gay community, trans community, women, people of color and 784 01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:18,600 animals. 785 01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:26,600 And if I can encourage Robert to connect all these things together to because I feel that 786 01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:32,380 that will have the best he will have the best chance in communicating the message by by 787 01:25:32,380 --> 01:25:36,420 talking specifically about animals. 788 01:25:36,420 --> 01:25:37,420 People switch off. 789 01:25:37,420 --> 01:25:45,200 Yeah, so that's my my response, I think. 790 01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:46,200 Amazing. 791 01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:52,480 That's an yeah, I never thought about it this way. 792 01:25:52,480 --> 01:25:57,800 I'm glad I asked this question. 793 01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:03,040 So Joel, I don't want to take more of your time. 794 01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:06,440 Did you have anything to add before we stop the recording? 795 01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:07,840 No, not really. 796 01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:12,800 I just wanted to thank you, Ryan, for the opportunity inviting me on the show. 797 01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:16,400 And yeah, it's just been an absolute pleasure talking to you. 798 01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:21,160 And I've learned a lot, particularly about what's happening in North America, it's things 799 01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:23,520 that I haven't considered myself. 800 01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:30,720 So I just wanted to thank you, and I'm just so impressed with the podcast that you have 801 01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:36,680 and if I can support it in any way I can, I'd love to. 802 01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:38,580 Thank you so much, Joel. 803 01:26:38,580 --> 01:26:41,080 This was truly, truly a pleasure. 804 01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:47,280 Like I said, you know, before I was looking forward to this conversation, and I had the 805 01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:54,920 great privilege of reading already some of the chapters you wrote. 806 01:26:54,920 --> 01:27:03,140 And I am just excited for people to discover this book, to just get stimulated by the nuggets 807 01:27:03,140 --> 01:27:07,680 of wisdom that are there. 808 01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:11,040 So looking forward to the book getting published. 809 01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:14,120 Yeah, thank you. 810 01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:15,120 Thank you so much, Joel. 811 01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:16,120 Thanks, Ryan. 812 01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:17,120 Thank you. 813 01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:20,080 Thank you, everyone, for listening. 814 01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:24,400 I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know. 815 01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:27,360 Let's encourage more people to take action. 816 01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:51,760 Again, thank you so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.