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Hello everyone, this is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.

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What you just heard was the angry reaction of a college student who discovered a booth

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in his campus promoting Elwood's organic dog meat farm.

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The dog farmers were even distributing free samples of dog meat, and that just brought

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him to the edge.

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Now what if I told you that the dog meat samples were actually plant-based mock meat and the

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farmers?

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Vegans!

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Vegans pretending to be dog farmers.

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Why?

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What's the point of doing this?

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Well, that is the question we are answering today with none other than the genius brain

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behind this initiative, Molly Elwood.

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Molly is an animal rights advocate and writer, copywriter, and editor for brands by profession.

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Visit the description below for the link to the full meltdown video of that college kid

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and also the link to the very funny and insightful social media account of Elwood's organic

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dog meat.

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So, thank you Molly for being on the show.

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Thank you for having accepted my invitation.

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No problem.

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I'm really happy to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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So, I want to start with this.

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You are a writer and I guess you understand the narratives we tell in our culture and

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to ourselves.

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And can you maybe, you know, and feel free to answer this question however you want,

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but give us an idea of the power of narratives in the animal world, you know, how, for instance,

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we justify our eating habits or the way we see animals and all the stories we tell ourselves

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around that.

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Yeah.

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So, I think that I'd kind of interpret that being that the stories we are given when we

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grow up, as we're growing up, about how we treat animals and what animals can feel and

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what they process and, you know, what our relationship to them, what our relationships

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are like.

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We often, I think we know the answers as kids because we ask the questions that are really

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kind of, you know, obvious.

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You know, I remember as a little kid getting a kitten and being like, well, shouldn't,

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why is the kitten being taken from the mother and being told, well, the mother doesn't care,

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you know, that she has so many babies, she doesn't care.

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So that's a story now that we tell ourselves and that just becomes another thread within

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the quilt that is the story of what we tell ourselves about animals.

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And when we tell these stories again and again, we don't question them because somebody in

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authority at some point told us what they were.

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And so we didn't have to go through, you know, what does that actually mean?

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So I think that a lot of animal rights activism is about, it's not even deprogramming, it's

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raising these stories and asking people themselves to go back and ask why.

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And now that you're an adult yourself, you can think about, you know, what do these stories

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actually mean?

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So interesting because I always think, you know, what are we fighting exactly?

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Are we fighting big ag?

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Are we fighting stupidity?

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And you're making me think, you know, maybe we're fighting just immaturity, just childhood.

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We're just asking people to grow up.

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Yeah.

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Well, one of the things that I put on the Elwood website that I felt was pretty impactful

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just to me, I wrote it and then I thought about it and went, yeah, I actually, I agree

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with this idea that is, you know, a lot of the things we told ourselves, we had to because

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that's how we were able to get along.

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For example, you know, in order to slaughter animals, we would have to think that they

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don't feel pain as much because that's the only way we could as humans feeling, thinking

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empathetic humans that we could get over it.

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We'd have to think that we have to take animals away from their parents, but now we don't

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have to anymore.

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And like now it's like those stories, those children's stories helped us get along when

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we had to do the hard things.

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But now it's like we've graduated and it's time to, you know, put away those, you know,

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and it's funny because it's not putting away the childish things.

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These are putting away the adult, you know, the rational adult hardening that we had to

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do.

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So.

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And how do you explain the speciesism dimension of it?

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Like there are stories of, you know, Bambi and I did an episode on fish and we talked

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a lot about Nemo and how this movie, which is about animal abuse and getting a fish out

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of a tank provoked, you know, when people watch that movie, they felt the need to go

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in a pet shop and just own purchase a clown fish.

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How do you explain that?

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Oh, well, you know, I think, you know, obviously we have feelings for animals that we can relate

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to or that we have feelings, cute, cuddly feelings for.

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But all again, when you go back to stories, all it takes is a good story to make you realize

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that they're thinking and feeling and we have empathy for them.

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I remember seeing Finding Nemo and it was funny.

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I had just, I wasn't vegan.

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I had just buried my dog and it was a big dog.

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Like it was a Pyrenees that I had to dig.

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This is a real story.

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This isn't me being funny farmer.

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It was the only dog I've ever, I have ever owned and I had to dig a really big grave.

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And then I went to go see Finding Nemo and it destroyed me.

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I just remember in the front row of the audience just sobbing my eyes out, just destroyed.

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And I probably went out after that and ate animals because you're not thinking about

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it.

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I have empathy for dogs and fish and I probably went and ate chicken.

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But I think it's the speciesism is again, it's a program that we're just running because

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we don't question.

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But then how do we tell the right stories?

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Because if I had to think about the perfect story to tell about fish in order to trigger

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empathy in people, it would have been Finding Nemo.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Go on.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And then people went exploiting more animals because of that movie.

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Oh, so when you were saying then they go and they go buy them.

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I mean, I don't think people's relationship with animals, we still say even I as a vegan,

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I use the word ownership even though I don't mean it.

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I'm a vegan.

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I don't think we should own anyone or any animals.

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But at the same time, it's a shortcut.

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It's a way to speak the language of everyone to say, I owned this dog.

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I owned this fish.

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I wanted to have a relationship.

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And I think that the pet ownership, quote unquote ownership is our desire to have relationships

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with animals.

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And what's really funny is like, for example, I'm in an urban area right now and I'm feeding

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some crows and I want them to be my friend.

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And I had this realization that they like how kind of narcissistic that is for me to

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be like, I want them to like me.

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And they're going, I have to live.

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I have to survive.

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I have to feed my family.

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And thank God this individual is putting nuts out for me.

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But I'm not going to like, there's no relationship here.

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Animals don't need us.

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I mean, maybe cats and dogs have those bonds to us.

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But it's a selfish want that humans and we like, just like we want food and we want companionship,

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we want pets and we want to be heroes.

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I just thought the image that appeared in my mind was that of a psychopath who just

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kidnaps someone.

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And I've seen that in a movie somewhere.

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Be my friend.

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You'll be my friend.

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Exactly.

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So are we the psychopaths?

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I think we are.

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And I think that, I think, I mean, obviously there are animals that we domesticated animals

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that need us, but they need us for survival.

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And I really think that dogs would probably prefer to hang out with a bunch of dogs than

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people, but you know, they can't live right now without us.

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So we, we, we get the benefit, right?

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But yeah, it is a bit psycho.

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We're like, come be my friend forever.

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I'll give you a warm bed.

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You'll love it.

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Okay.

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I want to go back to the words we use around animals.

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Is it truly that important to say, you know, for instance, companion animal or just animal

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instead of pet or purchase instead of adopt, you know, what's, do you have a strong opinion

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about that?

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I have a feeling that, and I don't, you know, I'm, I'm ready to be attacked for it.

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I think vegans end up othering ourselves a lot by using language that is, while more

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morally appropriate, it really distances us from everyday people who aren't vegan, you

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know, by me, by me saying companion animal or, you know, it's one thing to say it and

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define why I'm saying that and tell someone about it.

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But if I'm just talking with a coworker, I'm not going to, but at the same time, as I've

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started thinking more about the word pet and how I was thinking about the way humans might

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use it about each other and an endearment, but it's still, it's pet is like your thing.

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Your thing that I own that you bring me joy and you do not, there's no interaction from

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you upwards.

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It's just me and my thoughts about you and how, you know, so on, on one hand, I do think

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that we can, we can be careful with our language and we can talk about it.

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We can talk about its meaning.

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But I also think that in everyday interactions, sometimes we can be shooting ourselves in

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the foot.

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So yeah, I think lots of vegans out there are not truly conscious of the image people

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have of us.

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And one of my favorite meme is that of, you know, it's like a, you know, it shows what's

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the vision that carnivores have of a vegetarian, of another fellow carnivore, and then of a

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vegan and the vegan every time, you know, whatever person is looking at, you know, it's

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something otherworldly.

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It's a, it's an alien.

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It's an extremist, you know, terrorist.

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It's like, it's my favorite meme.

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And I try to remember that when I go into a conversation with someone who's not vegan,

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who's right.

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So you have that, you also are conscious of that, you know, your initiative, you know,

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you have to be conscious of that doing what you're doing.

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So can you describe first the image that people have of vegans just as a reminder?

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Oh my God.

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Well, I can just say, I mean, I'm in a very liberal city and if you're vegan, you are

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so counterculture.

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We are, we are, maybe you're a punk vegan and you're pierced and you're wearing black

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and you're, you know, you're, you're wearing a shirt that says meat is murder and you're

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going to be yelling and you're going to be dousing people, you know, yourself with blood

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in front of the Chipotle.

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And it's just, we are, I, it's the struggle to wake people up and I'm going to be in your

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face and I'm going to show it to you right now at any instant.

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I'm going to say I'm a vegan by the way.

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I know it was funny when, when I first went vegan, I bought all the ironic shirts and

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all the stickers and I had a pierced nose and I was like, I should get a tattoo.

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I don't have a tattoo, but now's the time I'm going to get a big vegan tattoo.

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And at the same time as, as I started to become more vegan, just in, in like that, I mean,

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I don't mean to say like more vegan, but as I started talking to more people about it,

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I realized that I could reach more people by toning my appearance down and looking more

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like everyone else.

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So then you can kind of surprise them and go, yeah, you could be vegan.

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Vegan doesn't mean, you know, it's chewing everything that is, you know, normal or you

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don't have to go yell in front of a Chipotle.

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I mean, we would like you to, but you can also just be at work and bring vegan cookies

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and you can, you can go sign petitions and you can try and talk to other people.

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And I think that that's just, you know, it's a journey.

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A lot of us take.

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I get the punk rock, you know, image of vegans, but there's also the image of, you know, the

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obnoxious vegan is ignorant who doesn't, you know, get it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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There's, yeah.

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So there's the idea of the ideal idealistic vegan, you know, that, or the hypocritical

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vegan.

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I mean, it's the thing that we really love to hate the hypocritical vegan, the vegan

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who's eating avocados or almonds or the vegan who's never stepped foot on a farm or the

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vegan who, you know, who, who lives in a city and has access to everything, but has never,

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has never been in a rural area.

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And it's really easy to be, it's really easy to shut down to try.

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If you were a meat eater, it's very easy to shut people down with these images because

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some of them are true.

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A lot of us have never been on a farm.

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A lot of us do live in, you know, urban centers and it, it's an easy, that's an easy win

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for them.

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Why do we have this image of vegans?

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I, I, you know, I will put the blame on social media and I'm thinking right now of the vegan

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teacher like personalities, big personalities like that who are out there and there's a

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lot of attention around them.

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But what is your explanation?

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Well, I mean, for the most, I mean, a lot of it is true.

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A lot of the, a lot of the perceptions of vegans are true.

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And I think, you know, we all have the, also the idea of when we go vegan, we all go on

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the journey of having to talk to people about it and we all become obnoxious because we're

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idealistic and think that if I tell you these things, you're going to change your mind too.

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And then you have the emotion of the information we're learning becomes so horrifying.

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So we have to, I have to tell you about it.

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And then at some point we, we become so wrapped up in, in the importance of the, of the issues

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that we become, we become the thing that they hate, you know?

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And I think we all have, it's, it's a journey we're all on and we have to, I don't know

234
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what I'm saying.

235
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It's, it's hard.

236
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It's very hard.

237
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Sorry to push those questions on you.

238
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No, no, no, no.

239
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It's true.

240
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I think the word I was looking for, what is the word that means when you end up being

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people hating?

242
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,280
I wanted to say it so easily, but I can't think about it.

243
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Like antagonistic.

244
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It's a, oh, I can hear you.

245
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Misanthropic.

246
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,440
Yeah, misanthropic.

247
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That's it.

248
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It's just, we end up, we end up wanting to, we end up othering ourselves and not really

249
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caring because at this point, like the animals are more important.

250
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So, you know, F you, we're going to do what we need to do to save the animals.

251
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And the worst part is sometimes that can't save the animals.

252
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So sometimes we do have to pull off our punches and we have to spoon feed non-vegans the

253
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information and even though it's going to be slow and it's going to be the longer path,

254
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it may be more likely to lead to veganism.

255
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And that's what the hardest part is.

256
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It's like, I don't know.

257
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It feels, I haven't watched Karate Kid, but it feels like Karate Kid.

258
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We're just like, just hold back.

259
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Just.

260
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Yeah.

261
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,840
We need a lot of wisdom, I guess.

262
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Being vegan is one thing and as you pointed out, it comes with its own mental charge,

263
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you know, mental weight and challenges.

264
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But then going into activism, I find that it is an answer to many of those issues we

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feel from becoming vegan, like a solution, a way to do something to address those feelings

266
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of powerlessness.

267
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But you know, is it, please share your story of activism and how you decided to take that

268
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extra step.

269
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Yeah.

270
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Well, first it started, you know, just trying to find a way to do something, you know, again,

271
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you have all this information and at first you think, well, I'm just going to tell people

272
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about it and it's going to change people's minds and that doesn't work.

273
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And then you're like, well, maybe I'll argue with people online and that's going to work

274
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and that doesn't work.

275
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And you're like, what if I just bake a lot for people and that doesn't work either.

276
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And I tried a lot of things.

277
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I volunteered at farm sanctuaries and I tried, I went out and did like Cube of Truth and

278
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I just felt like it wasn't from, it wasn't for me.

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I mean, like since then, I really, I've done Cube of Truth since then.

280
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And it was just, at that time I was, I was not ready to talk to anybody.

281
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So I just stood in the cube and, you know, was really mad, standing behind the mask,

282
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just looking at people.

283
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But I'm a writer and I was thinking, well, what if I started blogging about this?

284
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That would be helpful.

285
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And what if I, but it was really hard to reach people.

286
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But I just, I do think that is it.

287
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It's like, we, we, we read up and we get all this information and we gather it and then

288
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without an outlet for it, it's just, it's so depressing and it's so sad and so anxiety

289
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producing and that is how you end up telling your friends about it so much to the point

290
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where they're just like, you know, I love you, but you've joined a cult and can you

291
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just, can we just not talk about this?

292
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And you realize that you can't keep going to the same person with your information.

293
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You actually have to reach a wider audience and you need to plant seeds widely.

294
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So I do think that everyone should try and find the activism that speaks to them and

295
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try, I mean, you try a million things.

296
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There's so many ways to help.

297
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:27,660
And there's, you know, it's not, it's not just protesting in front of a place or just,

298
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you know, arguing with people online.

299
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There's so many ways you can use your skills.

300
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,280
There's so many nonprofits that need, if you have, you know, office skills, they need your

301
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help.

302
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:45,120
So what I like about dog meat farm is the creativity of it.

303
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:53,880
It's the way you went looking for something original that was not tested, but which is

304
00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:01,840
at the same time, you know, genius in the way it exposes the hypocrisy of people, of

305
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,400
the public.

306
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,040
How do we, how can we be more creative in our activism?

307
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:18,080
Well, one of the things that I find is pretty, pretty fun about dog meat is none of this

308
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,960
was the intention.

309
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These are all outcomes of it that are lucky outcomes.

310
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I made it cause I enjoyed it.

311
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I made something for myself and I didn't expect anyone to see it.

312
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And I was just, I was just enjoying the process of making something for myself.

313
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And I think that when we consider ourselves, what amuses us, what interests us, finding

314
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that you're going to find other people through that.

315
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,560
So it, you know, it doesn't have to be a, you know, a satirical campaign.

316
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,240
It could be, you know, whatever the thing is that you're really into, you're going

317
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,660
to find other people through it.

318
00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:59,480
So I think, and I think that that is also given the project longevity is because to

319
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:00,600
me it's still amusing.

320
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I still find joy in it.

321
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:09,360
And I think we need more people who are passionate and who are able to stick with their, the

322
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:10,440
thing.

323
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,920
So you have to be, you have to, you have to kind of let go of also what other people think,

324
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:16,920
you know?

325
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,520
And we can, I actually had a woman today, a friend of mine I was having coffee with

326
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:23,520
and she's not vegan.

327
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,040
And she goes, so have they figured out what is the best way to make someone go vegan?

328
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,640
And I laughed at him like, no, we haven't figured that out.

329
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,800
We would like to, but what's really nice is we need a million ways because there is, you

330
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,360
know, millions of different types of people.

331
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:40,960
And so, yeah.

332
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:53,920
But it surprises me in a way that there aren't more creative ways of doing activism out there.

333
00:22:53,920 --> 00:23:00,000
I hear, I always hear about the cube of truth, which isn't an amazing idea.

334
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,880
And I'm glad that it's widespread now.

335
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:13,700
But how do you explain the lack of, you know, trying something new and just going outside

336
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:18,240
the norm of what activism means?

337
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,800
I think I go back to an email I got early on.

338
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:30,920
I got a, I spent money to buy a mobile billboard in Las Vegas.

339
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,640
They just advertised my dog meat and it just rolled around in Las Vegas for a month.

340
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,400
And it just brought me a lot of joy.

341
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,600
And somebody emailed me and said, you can do that?

342
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,200
You know, don't you have to ask permission?

343
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,600
And I've said this in other interviews where I'm like, permission from who?

344
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,320
Like it turns out you can do things.

345
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You can just make things.

346
00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:03,360
And I think that there's a lot of feeling that there's some process we need to go through

347
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:04,760
before we make something.

348
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,880
And I remember when I first, I went to my first vegan conference and I was so excited.

349
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,680
Like I went to all the talks and I filled a notebook with all my ideas.

350
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,200
I was like, what if we did this and this and this?

351
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:24,320
And then we had, it was a meeting in California and then the Portland Activism Group got together

352
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,760
for a meetup and I'd never met any of these people before, even though I'd come from Portland.

353
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And so I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited to meet you.

354
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Here are all my ideas.

355
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,120
And they were like, we have all of our other stuff already in place.

356
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:39,600
We have, you know, these protests and working on this bill and like the very organized things.

357
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,920
And my first thought was like, oh, well, I'll put mine at the end of the agenda, you know,

358
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,720
and eventually in a few years, we're going to get to some of my ideas.

359
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,040
And then I went, oh, right, this isn't an organization.

360
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,600
I don't need to ask permission of other vegans to do things.

361
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,800
I can just make things.

362
00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:00,560
And I think, I wonder if that is one of the reasons we're stymied is we think that we

363
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:06,760
need approval or we need money or we need, you know, we need to think about the priorities

364
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:07,760
of things.

365
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:13,240
I mean, like if you think about it, I mean, and I often think about it as I think about

366
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:20,560
the money and effort and time that could instead be used in say, undercover investigations.

367
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,540
I find that to me, that is the most valuable thing we could be doing.

368
00:25:24,540 --> 00:25:25,840
It's funny because it's not dog meat.

369
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,280
I think the most important thing we should be doing is getting video and showing people

370
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,360
what this is, but that's not going to reach everybody.

371
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:41,880
So just as much as we need to be, you know, taking our B12, we also need ice cream and

372
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,700
we should be eating some ice cream too, you know?

373
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:45,700
So yeah.

374
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:56,120
Well, do you think that people are getting desensitized to all the footage of slaughterhouses?

375
00:25:56,120 --> 00:26:03,520
And I want to generalize that to other activism work.

376
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,720
You know, do you think that there is a ceiling and that someday this won't be as effective

377
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,720
as it was?

378
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:17,360
Well, I think that the one thing that is important about it is I can remember on my own vegan

379
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:22,960
journey was my thought that these videos must be old.

380
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,480
They must be from another country.

381
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,560
They must be showing something that, you know, happened just once.

382
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,000
And so that's the unfortunate part about it is there's always people who haven't seen

383
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,640
it yet and there's always people who think that.

384
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,520
And at the minute they go, hey, maybe I should look at this stuff.

385
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,400
And if they see it all stopped in 2024, they're going to be like, well, that doesn't happen

386
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,400
anymore.

387
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:52,000
So it serves the purpose of when that person is about to go vegan and they have to go look

388
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,480
at something, they'll find something from Mercy for Animals that just happened last month

389
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,840
and they can be horrified.

390
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,720
And so I don't think that that's going to pass, but I do think that especially as a

391
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,720
vegan, God, the stuff that I've seen again and again, and you're like, you just watched

392
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:11,560
that the cow in the UK get hit by a truck or hit by a police car.

393
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,560
And I was shocked when I saw it.

394
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,200
And then I just scrolled on by because I'm like, what?

395
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,680
I have only so much empathy.

396
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,600
I'm not saying I'm not empathetic of it, but I'm just saying where there's only I'm going

397
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:23,600
to keep seeing it.

398
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,560
We're always just going to keep seeing it.

399
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:35,680
So I think it's my own bias because I did not, you know, decide to become vegan because

400
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,000
of that footage, because I was exposed to that footage.

401
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,640
So I guess it's hard for me, you know, and I don't look for that footage.

402
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,760
You know, I look away just like you.

403
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:49,760
Yeah.

404
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:56,960
Well, you did look, but then because I don't find it constructive to just be sad all the

405
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:04,920
time and fill my heart with all those negative feelings when I'm already doing something.

406
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,920
I don't know what you make of that attitude, but yeah, no, not at all.

407
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:15,120
I mean, I totally feel that, especially as you know, and you're doing your activism is

408
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:16,880
we know it, we know what's happening.

409
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,400
I don't need to see it.

410
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,800
I went on one vigil and it destroyed me and I don't, I don't, I don't think it would be

411
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:28,200
helpful for the movement if I went to another one, you know, if I put me out of commission

412
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,640
for another, you know, two weeks.

413
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,320
But at the same time is I get what you're saying though, that there are many people

414
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,160
who that's not the reason they went vegan.

415
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,400
And that is where you get into the creativity of being like, what do we need to do?

416
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,080
We need to do so many different ways of reaching people.

417
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,760
Like I really like speciesism WTF.

418
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:47,760
I don't know if you know about them.

419
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,720
They're doing the milking women as an, as a big art like experience.

420
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:58,480
And I just think that like, that may not make someone go vegan.

421
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,480
It might.

422
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,080
It also makes someone go, what am I looking at?

423
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,200
And what is this?

424
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,800
And what are they rep?

425
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,160
Who's making this and why?

426
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,160
And I think that we need more stuff like that.

427
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,400
It doesn't have to be the thing.

428
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,440
It can be a representation of the thing to get people interested, to bring them in it.

429
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,280
And I love, I love that campaign for the creativity of it.

430
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:27,840
And I think that we should, you know, more artists and, you know, people should be exploring

431
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,320
what can we do in ways that are just outside of the box.

432
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:39,640
And I want to quickly go back to that message of you don't need to go through a process

433
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:47,160
or ask the permission of someone or even go through an organization to do your own activism.

434
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:56,080
This speaks to me as someone who decided to just launch a podcast out of nowhere.

435
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:02,760
What would you say to the people who are listening and who are considering activism, but there

436
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,880
is this hesitation?

437
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:12,800
How do you bring them, you know, on the other side?

438
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:19,960
I think again, for me, it was finding what is my skill and how can I use it?

439
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:20,960
Mine's advertising.

440
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:26,040
So it's, I'm so used to just sitting down and coming up with 10 different things and

441
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,200
then having to just choose one of them and going with it.

442
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,800
And I think a podcast is a fabulous idea being like, what is it that's interesting to me

443
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:39,560
and who do I want to talk to because other people would be curious?

444
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,560
So I think it is, it is sitting down with yourself and having this moment of being like,

445
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,800
what am I interested in?

446
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:56,360
But maybe, for me, I can say the journey that I'm on right now is thinking I don't do a

447
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,200
lot of street activism with Outwoods.

448
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,920
A lot of it is just in person.

449
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Sorry, a lot of it's online.

450
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,420
And I've done one-on-one tabling events, but I haven't done it with a big group of people

451
00:31:07,420 --> 00:31:09,840
more than a handful of times.

452
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,560
And I certainly don't know how to film them.

453
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,240
I don't know how to mic myself and put the audio and get the camera and have debates.

454
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,720
And I don't know how to change that debate into something that's editable with the onscreen

455
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:20,720
text.

456
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,440
It's just out of my wheelhouse.

457
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,200
And I was thinking, well, if I want to learn how to do this, maybe I should film it.

458
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,400
Maybe this is a podcast.

459
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,320
Maybe this is a podcast that's going to help teach other activists how to do this.

460
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,640
Regardless of whether I actually even want to do it, I actually think that I don't.

461
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,360
As I listed all those things, I'm like, God, that sounds like a lot of work.

462
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,820
And I think I should just keep doing what I'm doing.

463
00:31:41,820 --> 00:31:47,440
But how interesting would that be as content, to be interviewing activists and finding out

464
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,920
what they're doing and how they do it?

465
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,680
And then you've got a resource for activists.

466
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,000
So that's just a journey.

467
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,520
That's one example of something we can do that's exciting.

468
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,480
You could be like, I'm really interested in turtle rescue.

469
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:05,300
And it may not be vegan, vegan, but you might want to know something about it and learn

470
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:09,300
how to do it and create a short video about it.

471
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,080
Or you want to educate people and you can make a brochure.

472
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:19,800
And I just think that there's so much value in what interests you will interest other

473
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:20,800
people.

474
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:21,800
Okay.

475
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:29,680
I want to get to the second thing that I admire the most about this initiative.

476
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:35,320
And it is the humor attached to it.

477
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:46,320
I love the videos I see online, on social media of people getting angry about vegans

478
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,160
promoting dog meat.

479
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:57,120
And what is the place for humor in vegan activism?

480
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:03,040
That's a question I was asking myself in preparation for this interview.

481
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:10,440
Apart from this initiative and maybe some others, some movie productions, like short

482
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,640
movies or things like that, there's a lot of seriousness.

483
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:24,360
There's a lot of cries and sadness and not much humor, not much, I guess I'll use this

484
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:33,000
word positivity and the things that energize you and make you feel like, we're one of the

485
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000
winning.

486
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:40,960
So how come this is so funny?

487
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,320
What's so funny about this situation?

488
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,760
And should we instill more humor in activism?

489
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,160
Well, I think it's a really hard question to answer.

490
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,600
And so I was doing standup comedy about the same time I went vegan.

491
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,120
And as I got more vegan, the less I could do comedy because I was just so depressed.

492
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,480
Like the information is just so hard to deal with.

493
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,360
It's just, it's too much.

494
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,080
And so I stopped and it was funny how many people are like, oh, Molly, you should do

495
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,560
comedy about veganism.

496
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,560
And like, there's this rule in comedy about you don't punch down.

497
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,120
Like you never make fun of anybody lower than you.

498
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:22,040
And you're like, well, I don't want to make fun of vegans because everybody already hates

499
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,040
us.

500
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,160
So you can't be like self-deprecating.

501
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,080
And then you can't make fun of the audience because the audience eats meat.

502
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,320
And so there are comedians who have figured out how to do it, I never did.

503
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,960
But why this is so funny is because it's dogs.

504
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:43,160
It's taking the, for the lack of better word, sacred cow, the thing we love and doing the

505
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,320
worst thing possible, which is funny because we do it to everyone.

506
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,000
We do it every day to all the other animals.

507
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,520
And so it just becomes, it becomes funny because one, you know, we're not doing it and you

508
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,560
can hold up like a wiener dog in front of the camera and their big sad eyes.

509
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,520
And you're like, what if I, you know, it's just, it's ridiculous.

510
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:08,600
And I think the idea of making it, showing how ridiculous our actions are becomes very

511
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,860
funny.

512
00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:15,200
And it was, I don't know, I can't, I wish I could explain it and I wish I could figure

513
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,540
out like, what is the secret about what, what else we can do like this.

514
00:35:18,540 --> 00:35:27,240
But I do know that it's, there's so much power in taking and taking the other side and just

515
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:28,720
showing it back to them.

516
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:36,240
So Lifting Vegan Logic has been doing some amazing videos where he has started taking,

517
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:40,940
you know, meat eaters videos and then saying the same things, but often he'll put dog meat

518
00:35:40,940 --> 00:35:42,360
in as well, which is great.

519
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:47,000
He's, you know, somebody is just like, here's what I, as a meat eater, here's what I ate

520
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,360
in a, eaten a day.

521
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,960
I start with like, you know, five pounds of pug bacon.

522
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,120
And then like, it's just, it just sounds disgusting and awful.

523
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,840
And I think there's just there.

524
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:04,420
Yeah, there's a lot of power and mocking the other side because we're always mocked.

525
00:36:04,420 --> 00:36:08,800
And we're always talking about what they were always talking about the animals and we're

526
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,480
talking, but we're never talking about them, the people who are choosing to do so and how

527
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,280
silly it is and how hypocritical it is.

528
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,520
And I also think Vegan Sidekick has done amazing work in this.

529
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,560
Like he was so inspiring to me as a, as an early vegan.

530
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:33,640
And I, I'm loving seeing more people bring humor into, into activism.

531
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,380
And I wish we could, you know, I want to find more ways to do it.

532
00:36:37,380 --> 00:36:39,400
And it's ripe.

533
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:40,400
It's ripe.

534
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:41,400
It's ready.

535
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:47,960
Also don't know if you know, I was part of the ad campaign in Los Angeles, the hate vegans.

536
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:48,960
Have you seen this?

537
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:49,960
No.

538
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:56,440
If you look up 888 hate vegans on Instagram and the website is hatevegans.com.

539
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:02,240
It is a lawyer who specializes in helping carnivores, meat eaters who've been wronged

540
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:03,240
by a vegan.

541
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:07,840
A vegan has, you know, shown them where eggs came from and they were emotionally damaged

542
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,520
and you know, or they accidentally ate a veggie hot dog and it just, ugh, so disgusting.

543
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,200
You could be entitled to compensation.

544
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,500
Call 1-8-8 hate, hate vegans.

545
00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:22,180
So we've made a, there's a whole ad campaign that's going around this and the website's

546
00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:23,920
funny and the Instagram's funny.

547
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,760
And we're just trying to like show that vegans have a sense of humor, which you know, it's

548
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,960
obvious why we don't, but we can.

549
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,760
And it's, it's healthier to relate to the situation with humor.

550
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,280
I was reading one of the early texts, the vegan society.

551
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:54,400
It was one of the early founders, uh, don't ask me why I'm doing this in my free time,

552
00:37:54,400 --> 00:38:00,880
but he was saying, you know, something in, in the lines of it is so absurd to see a grown

553
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,480
man drinking milk.

554
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:10,480
Um, and he was making, you know, the, the parallel with, you know, he's not a kid anymore.

555
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,400
Why, why is he drinking milk?

556
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,440
And that was back in the 1940s.

557
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,120
And I found that so funny.

558
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,840
I mean, the timing of it.

559
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:21,840
Yeah.

560
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:29,160
Um, and yet some of my favorite activists out there take their, this crisis that we're

561
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:37,720
in and this very serious situation with lots of humor, um, because I guess it's a survival

562
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:38,720
instinct.

563
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,560
It is in a way.

564
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:47,320
And, and that is a, an instinct present in many, you know, frontline activists, like

565
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:54,960
the people in doing rescue are, um, the gallows humor is preservation.

566
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,840
You know, it's the, how do we get through this?

567
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:03,640
There's if we throw ourselves directly into the despair, we can't carry on.

568
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:09,500
Um, and we all need, we all need that because I mean, we need that in life.

569
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:13,120
You don't just need that in activism.

570
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,440
Life's hell unless you're able to be like, but at least it's warm.

571
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,000
You know, I don't know whatever that is.

572
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:27,640
It's just, we, we need that and we need to be able to find what is, what is the light

573
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,120
on the edge of the dark and that, you know, it'll, it'll bring more people into it.

574
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,440
And especially if you're trying to, if you're trying to make new vegans, no one's going

575
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,440
to come be vegan.

576
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,560
If we're all just like, come to our sad party.

577
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,960
It's a funeral all the time.

578
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:46,480
So what's your favorite reactions, uh, from a dog meat farmer?

579
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,200
Oh my God.

580
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,040
I just had an incident yesterday that just brought me great joy.

581
00:39:53,040 --> 00:40:00,040
Um, I am working on an Elwood's project and I was scouting out dog parks to shoot a video

582
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,440
at, and I have these really big magnets on my, on my truck.

583
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,840
And so I drive the pickup truck and I put two of them on, on the tailgate because you

584
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,020
have to look at them then and they're really big and they just, they're just, I'm farming

585
00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:16,080
dogs come to my website.

586
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,080
And I was taking a phone call in the car and I watched these two women with sunglasses

587
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,200
and they had just, they had just taken their little dogs out of their car and they stood

588
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:29,320
where they could see me in through the mirror and they were just hands on their hips, just

589
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,920
mouths open, just glaring at me.

590
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,680
And my favorite thing was not responding.

591
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,000
Like they kept moving to try and get my attention.

592
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,520
And then I was just like, I don't think I need to engage with you right now.

593
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,280
And I'm just going to let you go on this journey with your dog by yourself.

594
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:52,760
Um, so just sometimes it is just the everyday interactions that I can provoke just by putting

595
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:53,760
it out there.

596
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,360
And what's really nice about that activism is I don't have to be part of it.

597
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,000
You know, I think as an early activist, I was so tired.

598
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,680
Like I was just like arguing nonstop on Twitter and you're not making a difference.

599
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,600
And this would be like, it's, it's the equivalent of like leafletting.

600
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,440
And I'm just like, I'm just dumping it on the city.

601
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,840
And then I was leave and I'm just like, good luck with all of that information guys.

602
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,440
Um, so that, that is one.

603
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:24,880
And then I do like getting messages, even though that's not, I'm going vegan.

604
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:30,360
There's people saying, look, when I first saw this, I was hysterical and I was very

605
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,600
upset and I went on this journey and you know what?

606
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,360
I'm still going to eat meat, but good on you.

607
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:37,700
And this is very funny.

608
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:40,920
And I know that that is not the purpose, you know, the per obviously we want people to

609
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,840
go vegan, but that itself is like, here's a seed that's been planted.

610
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,120
They're like, one, you got me good, good for you too.

611
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,640
I looked at all your stuff, got it.

612
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,280
I, okay, I'll follow you.

613
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,840
You're funny.

614
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,840
And it's just such a begrudging, like, okay, I got it.

615
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,520
And now they're ripe for the next vegan to come along and punch them with the next piece

616
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:02,520
of information.

617
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:09,800
You know, it's just, I'm, maybe I'm not making vegans, but I'm, you know, ripening them,

618
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,800
I guess, you know, I don't know for the lack of better term, but, and we, I think that

619
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,100
that's also the thing is we have to be okay with that.

620
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:19,000
We have to be okay with this is not good.

621
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,760
This is not the death blow that makes you vegan.

622
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:29,240
I don't know what all my violent metaphors today show what my space I'm in.

623
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:36,240
Something I like to fantasize about when I look at those reactions is what if this was

624
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:43,200
our world and you know, this reaction was for every type of farming, you know, that

625
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:49,920
farming, you know, the norm was you get, you're shocked and you're just, you're hyperventilate

626
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:56,280
when you see someone, you know, farming for pigs or cows or something like that.

627
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,880
It's just as shocking as dogs.

628
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:07,880
It's like, um, it's like a, you know, a glance into this wonderful fantasy world.

629
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:08,880
It's amazing.

630
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,880
Yeah.

631
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,800
I remember having this conversation with somebody who was really upset.

632
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:20,480
Um, he, he, he had, uh, he knocked over all my stuff at vegan Dell when he got mad and

633
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,680
he cleared all my tables of stuff.

634
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,920
And one of the things was somebody in another vegan said to him, he's like, it's like, keep

635
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:29,920
your cool, man.

636
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,440
Vegans don't even do this in the butcher shop when it is real.

637
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,320
Like we just, you gotta keep it together.

638
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,680
Welcome to veganism.

639
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:38,680
Hold it together.

640
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,140
We're not, we, as much as we want to tear everything down.

641
00:43:43,140 --> 00:43:48,040
And uh, I then said later, I was like, I would love to do that.

642
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,200
Wouldn't you love to go to a farmer's market and flip a table with that?

643
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:52,200
Just bring you in.

644
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,440
You're just like, and we can't, and we're giving people the fantasy that we want, you

645
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:58,440
know?

646
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,000
Oh my gosh.

647
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,240
That's so true.

648
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:07,320
I never thought about it, but yeah, we put them in our shoes and they feel the same way

649
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,720
we do, but about other animals and never put.

650
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:14,520
And they get to react and we do not get to.

651
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,680
And so it's very cathartic, like to see someone like we may be laughing at them, but I think

652
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,280
if we take it from an, if you watch that kid, the video, the viral video of the kid going

653
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,840
dogs, you're like, imagine being able to be like pigs, you're doing this to pigs.

654
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:30,840
You're disgusting.

655
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,040
Like, oh my God, it's just, oh, it's all what we want.

656
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,880
I just, I want to go do that.

657
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,960
I want to go somewhere and just one big temper tantrum at the farmer's market, which is

658
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,360
do me for the year.

659
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:43,360
And I can't.

660
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,360
Well, I don't know if that's very efficient.

661
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:49,360
It's not efficient.

662
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,600
It's not effective, but it makes me feel good.

663
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,240
I do agree with you.

664
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:56,000
I 100% agree with you.

665
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,480
I've said that so many times in this podcast, you know, I wish I could go in a butcher shop

666
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:08,880
and just, you know, smear, you know, paint, you know, red paint everywhere.

667
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,040
I just don't know if I don't, I don't think personally, I don't want to go on a limb and

668
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,040
say this.

669
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:16,040
Nevermind.

670
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,040
We'll cut this.

671
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,040
I was, yeah, forget it.

672
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,440
Well, you know, no, I'm curious.

673
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:27,040
I don't want to discourage activists from finding ways to express themselves, but I

674
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:34,440
do think that I personally don't find a die in, in a supermarket to be the most effective

675
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:35,440
way.

676
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:42,400
We might be putting off more people than we're educating or convincing.

677
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:49,480
And so again, if unless it's connected specifically to a, you know, a grocery store that's carrying

678
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,600
a farm that is abusing animals in a way that we have, you know, captured on video and we

679
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:00,760
want them, it's, it's attached to a, you know, a boycott or something.

680
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,760
But I think that we need to be very specific about those.

681
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,920
And we need to, you know, you have to think about the optics of these things.

682
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:14,920
And unfortunately, while we want to be loud and passionate, unfortunately, sometimes that's

683
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,120
not, that's not the way I guess.

684
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,680
But again, I don't want to put down anybody who is doing that work.

685
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,920
And I think that we should all do what we can.

686
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:31,200
So I mean, the, the data and the studies done by institutions like phonetics, um, back that

687
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:36,160
claim, you know, that understanding and not, yeah, I completely agree with you.

688
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:44,240
That was something, um, that was something Robert Sheik writes in his book, the impactful

689
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,720
vegan, you know, how there is a hierarchy of activism.

690
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:55,120
It's not all forms of activism that are equal, but yeah, it's good to talk about context

691
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:56,120
too.

692
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:02,280
Yeah, it's really, it's really hard because you think that, um, you know, going, I think

693
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:08,600
going to a restaurant to protest them serving foie gras is a very specific action.

694
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,640
And while you may not be able to change people's minds by going out there with a bullhorn and

695
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,480
of knowing all the restaurant owners and, and, and, and goers, and then you put that

696
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:25,360
on social media, that may not be as effective as say standing in front of it with a video

697
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,760
showing what happens to them and then letting people see it, you know?

698
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:35,420
And I think that if we are more nuanced with our, again, we, we want to use a sledgehammer

699
00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:38,200
and sometimes we should be using like a screwdriver.

700
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,840
I don't know.

701
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:41,840
I agree.

702
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:42,840
I completely agree.

703
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:53,240
And I mean, we need to foster critical thinking in everywhere, including, you know, vegan

704
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:54,240
activism.

705
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,600
It's not the exception to the rule.

706
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:04,880
Um, we were talking about the funny part of, you know, um, the initiative and something

707
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:13,040
else I was wondering about, um, um, you know, around this initiative and around, you know,

708
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:19,720
the role of dogs in our society is, you know, sure.

709
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:29,080
We confront people in their hypocrisy of, you know, do our dogs, um, the same as cows

710
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:30,080
and so on.

711
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:39,800
But don't you think that there is some form of hierarchy between species, um, like a bug

712
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,400
and the dog versus, you know, a pig.

713
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,480
It's not the same degree of sentience, you know?

714
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:54,400
Yeah, I, I, I sound like Peter Singer, but he's making that point and he's the one who

715
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:55,760
came up with speciesism.

716
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:56,760
So yeah.

717
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:03,880
Well, no, I think obviously speciesism, speciesism exists amongst vegans and we, you know, we'd

718
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,200
love to hold ourselves to the high moral ground that like everything is the same.

719
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:13,240
You know, a dust mite is an ant is a pig is a boy is a bear.

720
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:18,440
I don't know how that quote goes, but I mean, I think what it comes down to is.

721
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,920
I think I'm allowed to have my own personal hierarchy of animals, as long as it doesn't

722
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,120
impact them.

723
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,680
And there are things that, you know, we also do not live in a vegan world.

724
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:35,960
So there are some things that, you know, sometimes we do things that are hypocritical and we

725
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,920
can't, we can't be perfect.

726
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,240
We are humans, but it's all about intention.

727
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:51,320
So like for me, I just know the way that I, if I see two animals on the side of the road

728
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,880
that have been hit by a car, you know, you're going to have a different feeling if it's,

729
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:02,600
if it's a dog versus if it's, if it's a squirrel and it's just, you can't help it.

730
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,800
And I think that it's unhelpful to pretend like, Oh, I'm just, I'm just as devastated.

731
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,000
And you're just like, well, who do you have a relationship with?

732
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,160
I bet if you had grown up with pet squirrels that you would feel much more pain when you

733
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,920
see a dead squirrel.

734
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,000
So I don't know.

735
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:25,440
I just, it's, it's helpful when it comes to making choices that we can say that we

736
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,160
don't have to hurt any of them.

737
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,200
Like I can easily put a spider outside.

738
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:36,160
It's much harder, say, if my whole kitchen is infested with termites to say, Oh, I'm

739
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,000
just going to live with them.

740
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,680
Or I have lice and I just got to just figure out a way to live with them.

741
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:47,600
You know, whatever the thing is, we have to be realistic about things.

742
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,520
Yeah.

743
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:57,720
And it, I think goes back to the image people have of vegans, you know, and hearing those

744
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:05,720
ideas, I guess anyone would think they're completely disconnected.

745
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:08,560
Right, right.

746
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,000
How do you even drive down the road?

747
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:11,240
How do you walk down the street?

748
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:12,240
How do you even do anything?

749
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:17,800
And well, I had a vegan on this podcast at the very beginning.

750
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:25,440
I wanted to, you know, interview veteran vegans and he had been vegan forever.

751
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:33,720
And he said, you know, I feel so sad and so heartbroken every time I use my car because

752
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:37,040
bugs hit the windshield.

753
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:43,000
And I was thinking, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

754
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,800
Oh God.

755
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:52,120
I think again, it is, it's a, if you were driving down the road and you're going through

756
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:57,080
a bunch of gnats, you're going to feel differently than if you're going through a bunch of butterflies.

757
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,020
Like it's just, we can't help to have these connections, these feelings.

758
00:52:01,020 --> 00:52:07,800
And it was funny because I was, I was actually talking to the kid.

759
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:13,680
I was talking to the kid about the kid who busted up the, actually this story is not

760
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:14,680
relevant.

761
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,240
I thought it was, it had to do with driving down the road and killing a bunch of animals.

762
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,880
But this is how I was trying to make them go vegan.

763
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,320
So it's not, it's not much fun.

764
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:23,320
Nevermind.

765
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:24,320
It's okay.

766
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:30,000
You know, 10% of podcasting is rambling.

767
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,800
It is rambling.

768
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:37,800
But no, I do think that there's, you know, to get back to that, that specific thread

769
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,800
is thinking about there's a woman and I can't remember.

770
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,400
I think, I think her name is, oh, I can't remember.

771
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,360
I wish I could reference her.

772
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,680
I saw a thread on Instagram that was a woman had made a post.

773
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:54,240
She's like, let's talk about imperfect veganism.

774
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:55,240
I'll go first.

775
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:59,520
And she's like, sometimes if I buy something and I find it has honey in it, I eat it anyway.

776
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:00,520
It's your turn.

777
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,080
And everybody was sharing their things and it was such a cathartic thing because what's,

778
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:11,360
what's really interesting is about it is you could say, when I get sugar ants in my kitchen,

779
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,800
I put out poison because I don't know what else to do.

780
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,740
And another vegan could say, hey, have you tried this?

781
00:53:16,740 --> 00:53:19,280
And that person go, maybe actually, no, I haven't.

782
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,280
Let me try that.

783
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,320
And then we all get to go on another vegan journey together to find out, does this thing

784
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:25,320
work?

785
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,480
Or if you're saying I, ooh, so that didn't work.

786
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,240
I'm glad we're not on camera continuity.

787
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:34,800
You anger the vegan gods.

788
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:35,800
Oh my God.

789
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,800
They're like, we must be perfect.

790
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:39,800
Shoot.

791
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:40,800
Oh God.

792
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:45,520
So yeah, don't, don't poison the ants.

793
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,280
You can use cinnamon along the border.

794
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,840
Sweep them up, take them outside.

795
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:55,360
But yeah, no, just finding out ways that were not perfect is it's helpful for the outside

796
00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:00,160
too because I mean, I was thinking about it be really fun.

797
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,120
And I'm going to share it here on your podcast.

798
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,760
Great vegan campaign idea, which is asking imperfect vegan questions, the things we don't

799
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,560
have answers to, to let the non-vegans know we don't know the answers and we would love

800
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:12,560
your help on it.

801
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:20,440
Like when they say, well, I was at the Rowdy Girl movie premiere in New York City and a

802
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,640
woman, I think a non-vegan asked this question with genuine concern.

803
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:31,440
She goes, well, let's say I know a chicken farmer who wants to give up chicken farming.

804
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,080
Like what does she do with all those chickens?

805
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:39,360
Like how is she going to like, what kind of, she goes, what kind of finances or support

806
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,480
or government, you know, government things are in place to help her so she doesn't, you

807
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,680
know, so she doesn't lose money.

808
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,040
And everyone kind of laughed or like there's nothing, there's nothing you can do.

809
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,720
If you're a chicken farmer with 20,000 chickens and you don't want to farm them and you don't

810
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:57,040
want to kill them, there's nothing you can do.

811
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,760
Nobody's going to adopt 20,000 chickens.

812
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,440
You can't feed 20,000 chickens.

813
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,880
You can't like, wouldn't that be a really good billboard?

814
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,340
We're like, what do we do?

815
00:55:05,340 --> 00:55:06,960
And then we actually open it to a debate.

816
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,560
And now there's a podcast about scholars being like, what is the solution?

817
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,000
Is it government intervention?

818
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,920
Is it, you know, whatever the thing is, what do we do?

819
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:17,920
And we don't know.

820
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:18,920
And I don't know.

821
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:19,920
And help.

822
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:21,640
Please help us.

823
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:29,640
Well, actually I do have the same, you know, an insorable questions.

824
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:38,240
And I was thinking of getting someone like a big vegan brain, like Peter Singer and

825
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:40,240
asking those questions too.

826
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:47,720
But the fact that we don't even, you know, openly because, and that's an issue I discovered

827
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:50,440
by doing this podcast.

828
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:56,160
I'm talking to other vegans and I'm talking about activism.

829
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:01,240
And I find that it is not the case for most vegan platforms out there.

830
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:06,360
We're always talking to the non-vegans, to the greater public.

831
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,760
And so we're always on, you know, defense, exactly.

832
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,640
We're always, you know, trying to convince and trying to advance the cause and all of

833
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:15,640
that.

834
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:22,480
And we're always talking to each other that there's no space where we're here and feeling,

835
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:29,840
you know, enough comfortable and, you know, open-minded to have those conversations.

836
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,200
It's really scary because I don't know if you know, but vegans are really judgmental.

837
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,400
So you know, you gotta be careful.

838
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,240
You know, you don't, you could say the wrong thing.

839
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:43,200
And suddenly, you know, it's going to get out there that the dog meat farmer, whatever

840
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,360
sometimes is saying, you know, that it's okay to not make someone go vegan immediately.

841
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,200
Maybe it's okay for someone to just be vegan at home and they're like, ah, you know.

842
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,800
So we do have to be careful.

843
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:00,040
But at the same time is when you don't open yourself up to these conversations, you can't

844
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,160
advance the movement.

845
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:06,960
We can't change things if we're so afraid, you know, of being canceled or whatever.

846
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,080
But I think that things are changing.

847
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:17,360
When I went to the, I spoke at the National Animal Rights Day event in New York City.

848
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:23,140
And originally I was planning a speech as myself, like Molly, the not the dog meat farmer

849
00:57:23,140 --> 00:57:27,720
that was going to be, you know, like, oh, the animals and I feel sad and here's how

850
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,100
I do humor to whatever.

851
00:57:30,100 --> 00:57:33,840
And then I went, wait a minute, they didn't hire the dog meat farmer to give another vegan

852
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:34,840
speech.

853
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,300
They hired the dog meat farmer to give a dog meat farmer speech.

854
00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:42,880
And so I asked the organizer, I said, is it okay if I just come in hot?

855
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,920
Like hope you anemic vegans are getting all your B12.

856
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,800
You just look like you're barely standing up.

857
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,560
But she's like, yes, we want that.

858
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:56,400
Well, well, well, how great to see all your anemic faces looking back at me.

859
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:01,280
I hope they're distributing some B12 in the back for you.

860
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,420
So I have a little chat to give here.

861
00:58:04,420 --> 00:58:09,280
So again, I'm Molly Elwood and first I want to say to the person who liberated the Labradors

862
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,820
from our barn last night, we have you on video.

863
00:58:13,820 --> 00:58:16,080
So that's property theft.

864
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:23,240
Elwood's organic dog meat is a family farm and we treat our meat dogs like family.

865
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,040
They have access to pastures.

866
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,040
They have warm beds.

867
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,900
They are safe until they're one bad day.

868
00:58:29,900 --> 00:58:36,840
Everything is done humanely and ethically and perhaps most importantly, it's local.

869
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,800
We give our lives to these dogs and to the profits we get from them.

870
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:46,200
And yet, like other animal farmers, we are often attacked by militant angry vegans like

871
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:47,920
yourselves.

872
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:54,760
And we know they're vegan because their arguments are baseless and hysterical.

873
00:58:54,760 --> 00:59:00,760
These vegans, they talk about the unseen suffering of small picnic breeds in cages, pugs being

874
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,280
gassed, male retrievers shot because they can't give milk.

875
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:11,020
They complain about corgis feeling fear, Frenchies feeling pain and cockapoos slaughtered by

876
00:59:11,020 --> 00:59:12,020
the hundreds.

877
00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:16,160
In fact, I received this very email just yesterday.

878
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:17,800
I'm shocked.

879
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,160
This is beyond the boundaries of humanitarian kindness.

880
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,320
It's disgusting and deplorable.

881
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,840
I have a poodle and I would never let any harm come to him.

882
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,960
This is an actual email I received.

883
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:34,520
How would you like it if someone had a people farm and decided to eat you?

884
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,800
I feel like I'm going to throw up now.

885
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,080
Thanks for ruining my morning.

886
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,800
It's disgusting and morally wrong.

887
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,920
Just wrong, wrong, wrong.

888
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,840
She's saying my family organic ethical farm is wrong.

889
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,040
P.S.

890
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,040
I'm a vegetarian.

891
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:56,960
These plant heads have never stepped foot on a dog meat farm.

892
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,360
So how would they know?

893
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:06,480
Allow me to herd all your myths down the chute of awkwardness to the killing floor of truth.

894
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,800
Our dogs are raised for this.

895
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,280
They're not pets.

896
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:11,660
This is their purpose.

897
01:00:11,660 --> 01:00:13,140
It's our family's tradition.

898
01:00:13,140 --> 01:00:14,680
It's the circle of life.

899
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,340
Humans have been eating dogs for centuries.

900
01:00:16,340 --> 01:00:17,920
They taste delicious.

901
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:19,600
Other animals eat dogs.

902
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:24,440
Dogs would overrun us if we didn't eat them or else I'm told they may go extinct.

903
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,160
Dogs don't suffer the same way we do.

904
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,000
Plants feel pain too.

905
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,280
We're smarter than dogs and everything in moderation.

906
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:36,960
Also you are all eating avocados.

907
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,080
And besides you know who didn't eat dogs?

908
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:41,080
Hitler.

909
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:42,840
Hitler never ate a dog.

910
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,760
So which side of history do you want to be on?

911
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,040
Right.

912
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:52,280
So this points to the fact that you can love dogs and eat them.

913
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:53,280
It's fine.

914
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:58,920
What I can tell you about unseen suffering, it's the unseen dog meat farmer, middle of

915
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:04,320
the night, gently cradling a Rottweiler who won't make it before kindly thumping it on

916
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:08,280
the floor to end its life according to USDA standards.

917
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:15,880
We need more of whatever and it was just this kind of breath of fresh air to be like, let's

918
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,840
find some new ways to talk about old subjects.

919
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:28,360
And you know, I'm 40 so I'm not like the next generation, but I'm excited for the next generation

920
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:34,560
of vegans who are maybe not so stigmatized and so afraid to have different conversations.

921
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,600
Well, I do again, my personal bias.

922
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,200
I feel like an outsider.

923
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:49,720
I have yes, vegan friends, but I was never, you know, I never had any idea of the judgment

924
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:58,960
that, so I never, and I still don't feel, you know, uncomfortable or fearful to ask

925
01:01:58,960 --> 01:01:59,960
those questions.

926
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:04,880
In fact, I feel like the urgency to ask them, you know,

927
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:05,880
Oh, right.

928
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:06,880
It is.

929
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:07,880
It is.

930
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:08,880
It's very urgent.

931
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:15,560
The time is now to say, if you know, if you don't agree with a kind of activism, we can't

932
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:19,480
be, we can't be emperors new clothes about it.

933
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,880
It's kind of like, it's kind of like when a new vegan restaurant opens up and the food's

934
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,240
really bad.

935
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:25,720
And we all have to go, it's great.

936
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,120
And I'm like, you can't because then the noggin vegans are going to come in there and go,

937
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:30,320
this is what you think is good.

938
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:35,900
We're like, we are obligated to give it the one star review, or better yet, let's message

939
01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:38,760
them privately and say, that was really awful.

940
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:40,680
What happened?

941
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:46,880
But similar to be like, you know, I know a lot of people who hate Tempeh, which should

942
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:48,560
just be okay.

943
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,720
That Tempeh is not for everybody.

944
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:55,560
And don't tell everyone if they're starting out, you just try Tempeh.

945
01:02:55,560 --> 01:03:02,080
You know, I recently went to a vegan restaurant and this restaurant was the one everyone recommended

946
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:07,640
me for when I first became vegan, like, oh, this is the starter vegan restaurant.

947
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:09,000
You know, you'll like it.

948
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,200
Yeah, it's good comfort food.

949
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,520
And it was a horrible experience.

950
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,520
The food was disgusting, truly disgusting.

951
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:24,080
And I was just, you know, giving my feedback, sharing my feedback to other friends, not

952
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,440
openly, you know, they're like, quiet, don't tell anybody.

953
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:28,440
Not even that.

954
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,880
They were like, no, it was good.

955
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,480
I mean, it's sure.

956
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:34,520
Yeah, there is.

957
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:39,120
I mean, seriously, when was the last time you went back to that restaurant?

958
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,600
That's the real question you need to ask.

959
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:42,600
Right.

960
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,200
And yeah, I agree.

961
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:51,920
I mean, when was, you know, dishonesty and just being, I just hate that attitude.

962
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:56,160
It's so, I don't know, I find it disgusting in a way.

963
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:57,160
Right.

964
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:58,160
And it's not advanced.

965
01:03:58,160 --> 01:03:59,600
It's not going to advance the movement.

966
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:06,160
It's pretty myopic to just be like, kind of like early on, I would say currently we're

967
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,360
in a very good vegan cheese space.

968
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:12,680
But I think that, you know, 10 years ago, or not 10 years ago, five years ago, the vegan

969
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:14,040
cheese space was really gross.

970
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:18,080
And we should have all just agreed like, everything's good about veganism except for the cheese.

971
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:19,080
And you'll get over it.

972
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:20,160
You'll find other stuff to eat.

973
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:21,880
Just give it, it'll catch up.

974
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,300
You know, just give it some time.

975
01:04:24,300 --> 01:04:26,840
But I did say that a lot to friends who were going vegan.

976
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:28,360
And they were like, well, what do you do about cheese?

977
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,400
I was like, I learned about what happens to the dairy cows.

978
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,360
It's not that I was able to find a replacement.

979
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,360
I just stopped because I felt so bad.

980
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,200
But now there's a lot of great cheeses out there.

981
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,520
But I mean, similarly, I think that a lot of people were lying and being like, Daya

982
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:44,520
is great.

983
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:45,520
And we're like, stop it.

984
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:46,520
It sticks to your teeth.

985
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:47,520
I hate it.

986
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:48,520
It's disgusting.

987
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:49,520
I hate Daya.

988
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:50,520
Okay.

989
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,680
Some of it's gotten better.

990
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:53,680
I think they're new.

991
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:54,680
They're new.

992
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:55,680
I'm not lying.

993
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:56,680
I'm not just saying this.

994
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:58,080
I think I've had some good Daya lately.

995
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:01,120
I still sometimes prefer pizza without cheese.

996
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:02,200
I'm afraid to try it.

997
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:05,680
I have a trauma as I see it.

998
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:06,680
Yeah.

999
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:07,680
Yeah.

1000
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,720
I think if you layer it with enough stuff, like if the cheese isn't the point of the

1001
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:17,560
nachos, but it's like in the middle of a seven layer dip and it's not going to stick to your

1002
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,800
teeth that way you can really eat.

1003
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,880
But that's not like that's how good of a selling point of cheese is that if you bury it with

1004
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:30,680
a whole bunch of other stuff, it's fabulous.

1005
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,760
If you can't taste it or sense it.

1006
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:41,880
Well, let me tell you, I invited a vegan entrepreneur who came up with this good vegan cheese and

1007
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:53,880
she was telling me, I have to be forceful with vegans so they give me their real truthful

1008
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:59,440
opinion and I am always telling them you need to say the truth because if you don't give

1009
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:04,040
me the right feedback, I'm not going to make good cheese.

1010
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:05,040
Yes.

1011
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:09,920
How is she going to make better cheese if we're all lying to her?

1012
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:10,920
I know.

1013
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:11,920
Well, similar.

1014
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,200
I mean, that's the same for also for any type of let's say any type of activism too.

1015
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:21,120
If we're all saying this is amazing, this is great, keep doing it.

1016
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:26,680
My dog meat posts don't get better when everyone is like thumbs upping them even if they're

1017
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:27,680
not that good.

1018
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:33,800
I actually have a there's a meat eater that follows the Elwood podcast, Elwood Facebook

1019
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:39,280
page and every so often he shows up and he rates my posts and yesterday's Father's Day

1020
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,680
post he gave a two out of 10.

1021
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:46,200
I was like, okay, good to know from the meat eaters.

1022
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:47,200
They don't like it.

1023
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,040
The vegans liked it, but the meat eater.

1024
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:50,040
Okay.

1025
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:51,040
I don't know if he's doing it.

1026
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:58,080
I'm obviously he's trolling me and I don't really know how he feels, but it helps.

1027
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:00,600
Exactly and I feel the same way about this podcast.

1028
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:02,720
I want to get people's feedback.

1029
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:06,640
I mean, real feedback about the quality of the episodes.

1030
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:07,640
Yes.

1031
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:08,640
Yeah.

1032
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,960
And sometimes I just wonder, you know, are you saying the truth or is this just a way

1033
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:14,800
to encourage me?

1034
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,520
Well, that's why it's so nice.

1035
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:24,100
You have to have in any kind of creative pursuit having the person you trust to tell you the

1036
01:07:24,100 --> 01:07:27,240
truth despite it hurting.

1037
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:33,280
You know, you've got to be able to you similarly, you've got to be able to give that give that

1038
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:39,320
feedback to people and I think that that's how you like test your friendship, I guess,

1039
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,340
you know, find out how strong it is.

1040
01:07:41,340 --> 01:07:44,320
Sometimes you give that feedback and that's the last time you hear from them.

1041
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,480
Other times they come out with you, they're like, well, I changed it.

1042
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:48,480
What do you think about this?

1043
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,520
And it's great.

1044
01:07:50,520 --> 01:08:00,760
Well, in my personal, you know, in my life, feedback helped me tremendously in my career,

1045
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:06,680
in my personal life, you know, it helped me grow into the person I am and I like I love

1046
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,760
the person I am right now.

1047
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,600
I'm a better person because of feedback, sometimes harsh feedback.

1048
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:13,880
Oh, yeah.

1049
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:14,880
That's good.

1050
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:15,880
Why not?

1051
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:16,880
Why be afraid?

1052
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:18,400
It's a gift.

1053
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:22,440
It's so hard to be that vulnerable and you have to be.

1054
01:08:22,440 --> 01:08:27,920
I mean, I think that takes a lot of self work for yourself to be like, I am confident enough

1055
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:34,080
with my intentions that I am ready for that punch in the stomach that I'm about to get

1056
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:38,560
and then I'm going to like take it away and I'm going to sit with it and come back to

1057
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:39,560
the person and say, thank you.

1058
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,840
May I have another, you know, like it's just we have to we have to be okay.

1059
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:44,840
Okay with it.

1060
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:48,440
And the person giving to it, like you have to have that comfortable relationship, too,

1061
01:08:48,440 --> 01:08:52,480
to be able to say, you may you may tell me this.

1062
01:08:52,480 --> 01:08:55,600
I might even lash out when you tell it to me, but I'm going to come back and say thank

1063
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:56,600
you.

1064
01:08:56,600 --> 01:09:01,840
Like I'm going to be like, shut up and walk away and just be like, oh, he's right.

1065
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,800
And then come back and be like, okay, thank you.

1066
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,840
And having that having those comfortable relationships are very it's so helpful.

1067
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:09,840
Exactly.

1068
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:15,800
And that's something I like about social media, actually, the fact that it's anonymous and

1069
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:21,120
people feel free to show a bit of their real self online.

1070
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:26,320
I mean, sometimes it gets really mean and there's a problem here.

1071
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:36,000
But still, I love that those of truthfulness and I do critique social media a lot, but

1072
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:43,320
you'll never see me critique them for the hate comment, the bad comment or yeah, this

1073
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:45,600
is not my thing.

1074
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:50,320
Well, yeah, I think that like I've gotten comments, I mean, that are really helpful

1075
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:57,440
from, I don't know, probably meat eaters, I think vegans are still like, yay, veganism.

1076
01:09:57,440 --> 01:10:00,240
But being like, this post is just way too long.

1077
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:02,320
Like, did you expect me to read this?

1078
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:05,480
Or, you know, what is she even talking about?

1079
01:10:05,480 --> 01:10:08,080
Good to know we won't do that one again.

1080
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:12,840
Like, and I think also one thing that's really helpful is if you make enough content, you

1081
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:14,960
can't be precious about it.

1082
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:22,280
Because you know, we need more higher, higher quantity, maybe less quality.

1083
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:27,600
And that way, you're going to learn over time that you can how to fix things.

1084
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:33,960
And some of my favorite posts out there, and I'm not talking about, you know, specifically,

1085
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:42,360
dog meat farm, but some of my favorite posts out there are just cheap videos and bad montage

1086
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:43,360
of something.

1087
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,760
I just love it.

1088
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:50,360
Yeah, well, it's funny too, that I found that some of the sometimes the content that

1089
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,400
I spend the least amount of time on is the one that goes really well.

1090
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:56,720
Like I didn't plan it and I just did it and it's impulsive and it's funny.

1091
01:10:56,720 --> 01:11:03,040
And yeah, I actually I follow a lot of meme accounts on Instagram and the one God, I was

1092
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:08,200
just laughing just recently, I think it was like, it's kind of like history of memes or

1093
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:13,800
something and it was the it's from a long time ago and it was the like the soccer player

1094
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,640
who falls and then he spins off into space.

1095
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:21,700
And that that techno song is playing that that that that that that that that and it's

1096
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:28,040
just him like rolling through different scenes and it is just the most enjoyable like imagine

1097
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:34,600
that with a purpose like if that had some message to it, like maybe that's the next

1098
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,320
thing for vegans is to like find the memes that were really viral and like what would

1099
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:39,680
be funny?

1100
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,640
Like I don't know.

1101
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:46,880
Well, vegan means I absolutely love them.

1102
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,480
And I love that it's content for vegans.

1103
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:54,680
And you know, we were talking about humor, I can't believe you know, we missed the vegan

1104
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,680
means thing, but yeah, it's amazing.

1105
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:00,160
I love vegan means.

1106
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:01,160
Yes.

1107
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:08,480
One I think that there's so my friend that I work with on a lot of a lot of Elwood stuff,

1108
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:12,440
Jacob Yap, he's a Jake Yap is a comedian and vegan.

1109
01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:17,960
And I was talking to him about this and he had this really good metaphor from not metaphor.

1110
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:19,680
It was something that happened in his real life.

1111
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,680
So he's a he's a comedian and he does radio shows and stuff.

1112
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:28,640
And he said when he first got into radio, he had one of those like 4am slots, you know,

1113
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,080
or he had to get up really, you know, he to get up at 3am to get to the radio station

1114
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:33,320
to start broadcasting at four.

1115
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:36,400
And he's like, he's just like, we're just making jokes and nonsense.

1116
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:37,480
Like what are we doing?

1117
01:12:37,480 --> 01:12:38,920
What is the point of this?

1118
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,560
And he's, you know, I don't like we're not saving the world.

1119
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:48,120
And he says his, his producer, whatever you call it was said to him, he's like, you know,

1120
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:52,600
we not we may not be saving the world, but the ambulance drivers who are on their way

1121
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:54,960
to work, they want to laugh.

1122
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:56,200
They need something to get through it.

1123
01:12:56,200 --> 01:13:02,120
The doctors, the people who are saving lives, they need something to keep them going.

1124
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:03,200
And that's what our role is.

1125
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:04,520
Our role is to keep them going.

1126
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:12,240
And you think that's where the point of humor is in the vegan movement is the slaughterhouse,

1127
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,660
you know, undercover slaughterhouse worker needs something.

1128
01:13:14,660 --> 01:13:18,960
He needs some some champion to say like, look, it's not all bleak and dark, and we're here

1129
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:19,960
for you.

1130
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:23,320
And I may not be there, you know, doing these same things.

1131
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:27,000
But I see you and I get you and let's let's make a vegan meme.

1132
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,000
I know.

1133
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,560
And it's just the tiniest little thing.

1134
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:32,300
But we all need that.

1135
01:13:32,300 --> 01:13:36,680
And it's, it's not just it's not just the undercover slaughterhouse worker who needs

1136
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:37,760
boosting.

1137
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:40,720
It's the person who just went vegan.

1138
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:41,720
And now they're all depressed.

1139
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:46,840
And they're like, I've been vegan for two years, and everyone hates me or you know,

1140
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:53,240
I love the vegan meme that was it was it was it's like a cheerleader and a goth sitting

1141
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:56,620
on a park bench and they're eating ice cream and it says when all you have in common is

1142
01:13:56,620 --> 01:13:57,620
veganism.

1143
01:13:57,620 --> 01:14:06,040
It's just like, I love that.

1144
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:07,040
It's very true.

1145
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:16,320
I mean, I just always I'm in wonderment of how this problem I know a lot of vegan activists

1146
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:23,000
like to compare veganism to other social justice movements.

1147
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:27,120
But I do find that veganism is its own thing.

1148
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:32,360
It is quite exceptional in the complexity of the problem.

1149
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:38,000
The the just the how great the problem is.

1150
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:45,160
And also what it requires from you and how it unites you with just strangers.

1151
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:50,360
Well, and I don't think I think that it's one of the one of the rare movements to that

1152
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:54,880
is not as much as we at the top of this, we were trying to say, oh, you're a you're a

1153
01:14:54,880 --> 01:15:00,320
rebellious, you know, far left punk who, you know, pierced whatever and like, no, there

1154
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:05,880
are conservative vegans, there are Trump voting vegans, there are vegans from all around the

1155
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:06,880
world.

1156
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:10,520
Like it is you may only the only thing you have in common is you both use nutritional

1157
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:11,520
yeast.

1158
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,280
And in fact, I've gone on a lot of vegan meetups that I hate it.

1159
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:18,360
I'm just like, oh, my God, no, not to judge them.

1160
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:20,920
I'm just like, I'm not like these people.

1161
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:24,640
We I can we can share recipes and we can talk about the animals.

1162
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:26,760
But beyond that, we don't have anything in common.

1163
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:32,160
And I think that that makes our movement so sometimes so hard because you're trying to

1164
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:37,200
mobilize people who have all these other outside concerns and wants and things.

1165
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,680
And we're professionals, there's professionals and there's students and there's moms and

1166
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:41,680
there's grandparents.

1167
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:47,960
And it's just when all you have in common is, you know, this one thing, it's hard, it's

1168
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:50,040
hard to unite and motivate us all.

1169
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:54,080
And I think it's a it's a lie for us to try and say that we're all the same.

1170
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:58,280
So that's also another reason for different types of activism and different types of podcasts.

1171
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:04,780
Like I I want the movement to be I want the public facing part of the movement to be as

1172
01:16:04,780 --> 01:16:09,520
inclusive as it's embodied as its embodiment, I guess, lack a better word.

1173
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:15,800
But it's like I would love to see some I'm not I'm not conservative, but I want to see

1174
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:21,360
some conservative vegan podcasts, reach more vegans, find more vegans in your movement.

1175
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:23,400
I don't care who you vote for at that point.

1176
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:25,080
I mean, I do care who you vote for.

1177
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:30,200
But I do want you to know more vegans, make them please.

1178
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:31,200
Exactly.

1179
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:35,560
I mean, I platform, you know, platform.

1180
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:39,960
It's very technical term.

1181
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:47,640
But yes, I invited on this show a couple of conservatives who described themselves as

1182
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:49,600
vegan and conservative.

1183
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:57,600
I also invited Dr. Vlasak, who's one of the officer of the animal liberation front, who's

1184
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:04,640
like at the far left of even the left, you know, it's an anarchist movement.

1185
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:05,640
Yeah.

1186
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:12,400
And he's advocating for, you know, he's not advocating, but he's, you know, talking openly

1187
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:19,520
about how there is an argument for doing illegal stuff in terms of, you know, vegan animal

1188
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:21,040
rights activism.

1189
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:22,320
Right.

1190
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:31,520
And I just think it's wonderful that we have this much ability to just, you know, be appealing

1191
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,360
to every demographic out there.

1192
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:42,240
So why do we stick to a certain narrative or to a certain doctrine and to I mean, we

1193
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:47,760
have arguments to appeal to the right and we have arguments to appeal to the far left.

1194
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:52,280
Like, why are we not exploiting that potential?

1195
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:59,240
I think it's just, it's a scary, like we said before, it's a scary thing of being afraid

1196
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:05,920
of upsetting a vocal majority of saying that you, we want you to march under the same banner

1197
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:10,120
as these other people whom you disagree with on so many other fronts.

1198
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:16,260
And it's just like, we want our teams to be as monolithic as possible.

1199
01:18:16,260 --> 01:18:17,260
So I'm pure.

1200
01:18:17,260 --> 01:18:20,840
I don't want it, you know, but at the same time as we have to recognize that it's much

1201
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:26,260
more complicated, human being human is much more complicated and nuanced than anything.

1202
01:18:26,260 --> 01:18:31,040
And we can't be simplifying things just because it helps us feel better.

1203
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,560
It doesn't help the animals at all.

1204
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:35,680
Yes, exactly.

1205
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:36,840
It's not about you.

1206
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:38,280
It's about the animals.

1207
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:42,720
It's not about your comfort or your, yeah.

1208
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:47,320
And so do you think that veganism is a religion?

1209
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:52,760
Because at first, you know, before starting this podcast and really diving deep into the

1210
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:59,640
activism scene and the world of veganism, I used to think that, you know, veganism is

1211
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:07,440
a religion was just something that anti-vegans would say on social media or in your face

1212
01:19:07,440 --> 01:19:11,760
to make you mad or that was something thoughtless.

1213
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:19,040
And then I would talk with vegans and they would say, yeah, for me, veganism is a religion.

1214
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:26,360
And in the way it is, like you said, you know, pure and it has this dogma around it and we

1215
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:30,760
need to all fall into the same line.

1216
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:38,880
And it feels like a religion and, you know, I guess there's also the fact that what we

1217
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:47,120
require from people or what we ask from people is a big transformation in their lives, something

1218
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,660
akin to a conversion.

1219
01:19:49,660 --> 01:19:51,840
So I see the familiarity.

1220
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,800
So yeah, I'm asking you, do you think it's a religion?

1221
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:59,200
I mean, I think you could take it as a religion.

1222
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,720
I think all the things you said are very true.

1223
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:05,200
It's, you know, and it can feel very spiritual too.

1224
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:10,760
It can feel very transformational to be like suddenly we're all, you know, my choices have

1225
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,560
an impact on the whole world.

1226
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:20,480
And it is a very powerful emotional feeling that we can get from being vegan.

1227
01:20:20,480 --> 01:20:23,840
And I find myself moved all the time by it.

1228
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:30,360
I'm often just, I'm often feeling very spiritual about it, but I don't think it has to be.

1229
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:35,800
I think we can come at it from a purely logical perspective and say, we don't actually have

1230
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:36,800
to.

1231
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:42,080
Let's be very logical about this and let's examine all the inputs and the outputs and

1232
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:43,400
do the diagrams and stuff.

1233
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,120
And we can also come to the same conclusion.

1234
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:48,840
And I think that you can't do that as much with religion.

1235
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:52,120
Religion is unprovable for the most part, I would guess.

1236
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:53,120
I'm not religious.

1237
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:57,920
I didn't have any religious upbringing, but I think that that's kind of one thing that's

1238
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,200
different is you can't prove it.

1239
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:07,880
Whereas this is like to take the religion aspect of it is a beautiful thing.

1240
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:13,220
And if you have the time to make space for that in your heart, I think that's beautiful.

1241
01:21:13,220 --> 01:21:15,980
And I don't think it takes away anything from anyone.

1242
01:21:15,980 --> 01:21:19,000
And I think that you can approach it, you know, when talking to people, you can approach

1243
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,520
it from different perspectives.

1244
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:29,800
So I try not to get into the emotional feels of it too much, because I'm worried that that's

1245
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,960
going to put off people and they're going to be like, oh, vegans are so emotional and

1246
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,600
stuff and they're like, they're so woo woo and wishy washy.

1247
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:41,280
So I think it can, you know, depends on your audience who you're talking to.

1248
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:46,520
But yeah, for me, sometimes it feels very, very religious.

1249
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:48,520
Amazing.

1250
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:55,600
So Molly, I think we're ready to land this interview, this conversation.

1251
01:21:55,600 --> 01:22:02,680
Did you have anything more to add before we end the recording?

1252
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:09,400
I just want, I think I'd like to say that I want more people to feel empowered to do

1253
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:11,800
things for the animals.

1254
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:18,240
And as we do them to be conscious of our audience at the same time, which is hard because it's

1255
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:22,040
what contradicts what I also said of doing the things that interest you.

1256
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:30,760
So I think it just, we have to, we have to be careful and keep in mind, keep in mind

1257
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:32,840
our goal, I guess.

1258
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:38,400
I didn't say that very poetically, but I just think, yeah, let me say that one more

1259
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:41,400
time.

1260
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:48,500
I really want people to feel empowered to do activism and to find their own path.

1261
01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:55,400
And as they do so, you know, find both what interests them and you know, what the optics

1262
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:59,800
look like from the outside so we can try and do the most impact for the animals.

1263
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:04,560
So it's going to look different for everyone.

1264
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:06,520
Amazing parting words.

1265
01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:07,520
Thank you, Molly.

1266
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:08,520
You're amazing.

1267
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:14,680
Thank you for your work, for your great activism, for making us laugh so much and bringing us

1268
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:16,320
joy.

1269
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:20,080
And thank you for having accepted to be a guest on The Vegan Report.

1270
01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:21,080
No problem.

1271
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,980
I was really great to talk to you and I hope we get to talk again.

1272
01:23:24,980 --> 01:23:26,640
Thank you everyone for listening.

1273
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:31,200
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

1274
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,280
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1275
01:23:34,280 --> 01:24:01,240
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.