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Welcome to The Vegan Report, my name is Ryan and today's episode will be a concentrated

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version of this podcast.

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I have gathered some of the highlights of previous interviews in one episode just for

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you.

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My goal was to capture the spirit of the show, this mission I gave myself to inspire you

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to take action in the animal rights struggle, to do some good.

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Making this podcast also allowed me to reflect back on conversations I had, think of all

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the things I learned and remember how those episodes came about.

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You will find a link to all the interviews featured in this episode in the description

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below.

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Plus, this is a great goodbye episode.

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Don't worry, the show will go on by goodbye, I simply meant I'm taking a summer break

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before coming back in August with brand new episodes.

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During this break, I will be recording an array of fascinating, thought-provoking and

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frontier-breaking episodes.

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I will be running after the unreported stories and hopefully, hopefully you will still be

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here in August to listen and continue this adventure with me.

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Having said that, let's now begin with our first segment of interviews going over the

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theme of factory farming.

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You will first hear Colin, who was a worker of this industry before becoming vegan, Kennedy,

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who works for Farm Transition Academy, a non-profit helping farmers abandon animal expertise and

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basically change their business model.

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Then Natalie, who told her story of breaking in a farm located just an hour drive from

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where I am right now.

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And the great Dr. Fitzgerald, who has deeply taught and studied animal expertise.

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And of course, my good friend Varun, who is following the footsteps of Dr. Fitzgerald

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in one of the most hostile universities for animal rights activists.

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You know, as a kid when I worked on a ranch, I had never had as much opportunity to work

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in like a slaughterhouse.

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But now I had to.

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Now I had to do, you know, and I remember taking like a carcass evaluation course and

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that course was the beginning of the week you see the animal, you as a live, you palpate,

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you know, the fat on its back, you see its muscles, you see its skin, you see all this,

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you give it a grade.

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And then at the end of the week, they slaughter it and you have the carcass and then you have

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to evaluate the carcass.

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And it was very strange seeing this animal and it's just whatever.

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And then the end of the week you see it's dead carcass.

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And but the thing that really, really drove me kind of the very final thing was I had

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been working for a dairy on a dairy farm.

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I had been working with a veterinarian, a large animal veterinarian, and we were doing,

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we were mostly doing animal reproduction work for cows.

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But part of that, we also had to go do regular veterinary work.

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And we had this dairy cow that, you know, she was very, very sweet.

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She was great.

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But she was down on the floor and she wasn't walking.

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Legally in the United States, you can't send an animal to slaughter if it's not able to

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stand up on its own weight.

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So essentially you have 800 pounds, a thousand pounds of wasted money.

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So we essentially, we gave it steroids, hoping that it would get up and go on living and

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walking.

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That didn't happen.

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We came back the next day and it was still there.

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And so my boss essentially had me euthanize it and euthanasia with livestock.

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It's not, you know, a hundred dollars of barbiturates and chemicals and the peaceful, like quiet

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thing.

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You shoot it in the back of the head.

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And I remember shooting it in the back of the head and it just, it really, really, it

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really got to me because I was sitting there, you know, for many years saying, you know,

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I wanted to help animals.

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I wanted to be, I really cared about animal husbandry.

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I really love these animals.

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I always consider myself an animal lover.

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And yet here I am doing this.

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I don't want to contribute this to this anymore.

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I don't want to give any more of my money to this.

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Even if it's, you know, dairy cows, chickens, backyard eggs, any of it.

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So from there I ended up going vegan because I just, I couldn't see myself thinking of

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myself as an animal lover and still contributing in this way.

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So yeah, it was, it was a very, very drastic change.

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It's been certainly very interesting.

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You know, when I talk to people from my past, you know, I'll talk to family and they're

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kind of very taken aback, you know, and they just, they're not aggressive against it.

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You know, they're not, you know, I don't get as much pushback as you would expect.

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But you, but I do get a lot of the, you know, oh, I could just never do that.

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I love bacon and cheese too much.

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So I try and always have just an honest, genuine conversation with them.

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Why do you think others who work in that industry have not jumped out of the, this nightmare,

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those nightmare factories and those practices?

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Why are they still doing what they're doing?

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Even though they might have, you know, slaughtered innocent creatures like that cow.

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Do you have any reflection on that?

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Yeah.

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I mean, ultimately a lot of it does.

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Money makes the world go round.

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I think that's a huge contributing factor.

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As I mentioned earlier, you have, you know, when I was talking about people who work in

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these slaughterhouses, oftentimes they are, you know, without going up and asking them

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for, you know, legal documentation.

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They're often migrant workers who are oftentimes illegally here with, you know, wrong information.

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These are the facilities that are choosing to employ them.

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The people working there are often going to, they have to make a decision.

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Do I feed my family with a paycheck?

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Do I get a paycheck?

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Do I feed them?

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Or do I work in this industry?

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They're often going to choose to work in this industry because they have family at home

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to feed.

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They have bills to pay.

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And these are the facilities where they can get jobs at.

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You know, I was even talking about, you know, there was underage workers, 13 and 14 year

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old workers at the plant in Nebraska that, you know, they recently came under fire.

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13 and 14 year olds don't want to work a night shift at a slaughterhouse cleaning.

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They need money though.

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People need to pay bills.

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So these kids are often forced into that type of thing.

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You know, and even for a lot of the other players in the industry, you know, the regular

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rancher who's just raising 20 cows, he's not working in the slaughterhouse.

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It is a very, you know, meat is a very cultural thing.

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Very, very ingrained in our society.

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So it's very, very hard for people to give up that aspect of their life.

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Even for me personally, like I think about like fish and hunting, you know, that's, I

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love fishing.

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I loved going out with my buddies on, you know, the canoe and we would sit out there

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and fish and, you know, have a great time.

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And it was just awesome.

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And you know, but that is an activity like I do miss.

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It's not even, it's not the eating the fish.

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It's just an activity.

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I admit it was so, you know, part of my culture and just part of who I am.

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Even to this day, you know, I, I still, you know, I don't hunt, but I still go and I end

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up, I still do like long range rifle shooting and I'll oftentimes talk with some of these

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people who do hunt.

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And you can tell that them going and taking their son hunting, that's a bonding experience

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that they have, you know, their dad took them hunting.

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So they want to take their son's hunting.

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It's just a very cultural thing to them.

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And it's very, very hard for them to break those habits.

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But you know, as I said, it's a slow process.

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You're seeing more and more people moving away from animal agriculture and eating animals

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to plant-based diets, but it's going to take time.

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And I do see that the, I do believe that the animal agriculture industry is going to start

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shrinking significantly in the future.

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Those are, you know, not these living, breathing, sentient beings that we know them to be within

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the agriculture industry.

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Their lives are just completely reduced to nothing as if they are nothing more than livestock,

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quote unquote.

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That's where that term comes from, living stock on a shelf.

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And it's such, you know, a very interesting thing when you look into it, because those

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things are perpetuated and that kind of science allows farmers to continue to do the work

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that they do because they're not really seen as animals with personalities as we know them

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to be.

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When you're looking at how these animals are treated within the animal agriculture industry,

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they're taught to be no more than a number.

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They're taught to be no more than a face behind a barbed wire or within a cage.

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And so that autonomy, that personality is completely stripped away from each of them.

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And another thing as well is that for a lot of these farmers, they are bringing these

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animals into the world with forcible impregnation.

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So they kind of see that as I'm bringing these animals into this world and I'm taking them

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out, this is part of my job.

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They have no autonomy.

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So those are just little things that really do create a very upsetting implication on

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the lives of these animals and on the lives of animal rights activists as well, because

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their lives are just being completely erased as nothing more than a number or nothing more

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than a package label.

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I attend the University of Guelph.

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It's the most animal agriculture heavy university I can think of.

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On my first day, my first class was in animal science building and I'm like, my program's

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in sociology, why on earth have I, why am I in this building?

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And when it comes to funding, I guess this goes away from political more towards kind

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of educational, less social level.

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I'm going to be, there's more scholarships available.

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There's more funding opportunities available for the animal agriculture sciences.

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And these projects, they're not about the rights and justice of animals.

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It's about their welfare in regards to how can we treat them as an object in the nicest

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way possible?

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They're essentially trying to find a way to do something inherently wrong in the most

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nice compassionate way, which is a fundamental contradiction.

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If you were to go, anyone were to go to the University of Guelph website right now and

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look at what their graduate students are doing.

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I don't think they should be harassed or anything like that.

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I don't want anyone listening to this to go harass them.

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I'd love for people to email them and ask the students, hey, so how do you do this to

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the animal ethically with concern for the animal when you don't need to have those conversations

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going?

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But like there's more resources for these, for these people that essentially mess up

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animals.

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So, and that leads like the fourth kind of angle, like economically, this ties in with

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school, but there's more money invested into big dairy, big beef, big chicken, big whatever

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animal agriculture related.

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The resources they have to fight this battle is a lot more than anyone like myself would

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have, anyone like partners of this movement, like Animal Justice, which is one of Canada's

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premier legal advocacy groups for animals, PETA, Mercy for Animals, you name it.

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No one has as much resources as the big animal agriculture industries.

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It's in human culture, almost in every culture in the world.

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You know what?

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No, I'm going to say confidently, in every culture in the human world, in history, to

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mess up animals.

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And I just say mess up as another way for violence.

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I just, I get tired of saying the same thing, but there is.

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What is it like to, to be an animal rights activist in a university devoted to serving

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the animal industry?

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I feel like you must feel like an anomaly in this college community.

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First and foremost, I feel like a piece of shit.

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I don't know how to say that more politely because if I had stayed at the University

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of Windsor, I feel like I would have been doing better work just because I'm not a part

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of a university that's so frankly disgusting in my mind when it comes to supporting these

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kinds of things.

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But at the same time, it's important that I acknowledge I am at the University of Guelph,

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which is very animal agriculture heavy, but it's got to start somewhere.

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If there's no one else who is focusing on ways to address animal justice, I don't think

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I'm the first, though I hope I'm not the last.

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And wherever they are, whichever pockets of society that you're in where you're dealing

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with a very, very uphill battle, I'm not saying go for the hardest thing, but don't shy away

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from that challenge as much.

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It needs to happen because I've been able to raise questions and concerns and make comments

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that no one else is going to think about in the sociology department at my university.

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And if I wasn't there, maybe someone does, maybe someone doesn't, we don't know, but

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we do know that because I am there right now, I can raise those.

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But I try not to be too hard on myself there.

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It is hard not to be hard on yourself, though.

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But in regards to how I feel generally about it, like it sucks because a lot of my cohort,

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my peers, a lot of initiatives on campus are about making sure we don't harm humans.

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We don't harm people or the environment based on any arbitrary social aspect, you know,

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race, gender, class, whatever it might be.

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And I'm all about that.

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I'm all about that.

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It very rarely extends to animals.

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And when it does, it's superficial, it comes in the form of animal welfare, which you're

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still hurting them.

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And it's just, disheartening is probably the most appropriate word.

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Frustrating and disheartening.

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All I knew was this was a peaceful action.

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And that I was going to be driving there, you know, with a biosecurity suit and with

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these people that I had met.

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We had one meeting to talk about it, where we got the equipment that we needed for the

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day.

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And then we did it.

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And yeah.

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So let's talk about the details, the logistics of going there.

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What happened on that fateful day?

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I think I woke up at two in the morning, if you can call that waking up.

233
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I don't even know if I slept.

234
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I can't remember, but I woke up and I got dressed and I walked to this park.

235
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We were also supposed to meet at Park Lafontaine at 2.30, I think in the morning.

236
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And so we met there.

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There were a number of cars already and we divided ourselves into the cars so that we

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could carpool to Saint Hyacinth, or Saint Hyacinth in English, which is where the farm

239
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was.

240
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We didn't know where we were going, only the drivers knew where we were going.

241
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It was still pitch black when I was walking to this park to get to the other people.

242
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And I remember thinking to myself, what am I doing?

243
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This is crazy.

244
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Waking up early in the morning to do this, I have no idea what I'm walking into.

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All I know is that it's a peaceful action and I feel like this is important and I'm

246
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going to do this.

247
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:36,080
But I was scared and it felt mind boggling that I was walking into this situation.

248
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So then we drive there, we leave at 3 a.m., we get there at 4.

249
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,320
And again, it's still pitch dark when we get there.

250
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It's the middle of nowhere countryside farmland.

251
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There are no streetlights.

252
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,480
It is just black.

253
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,000
Sorry to interject, Nathalie.

254
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:59,360
Saint-Jacent is actually the city where you can find one of the biggest vet hospitals

255
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:08,280
for farm animals in Quebec, which I find interesting that this is happening where there's this

256
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:16,360
big vet hospital and vet school to, I think, most veterinarians in Quebec who go into the

257
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:20,960
agribusiness to get their training in Saint-Jacent.

258
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:21,960
Really?

259
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,560
I didn't even know that.

260
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,040
I've never heard that before.

261
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,240
I think so, yeah.

262
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:36,200
Yeah, it's a strange contradiction of veterinary practice for most people that are veterinarians

263
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,600
because most people eat animals and then the school is in a place where they're exploiting

264
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so many animals.

265
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,040
I mean, the whole society is just so contradictory, isn't it?

266
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But that's an interesting fact I didn't know about.

267
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,920
Wow.

268
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:57,440
So, we arrived there in the dark and I'm sitting in the back of this car and the people that

269
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,720
I'm in the car with, they leave to go to another car.

270
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I don't remember why.

271
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:09,880
So, I'm sitting there in the back and I put on my biosecurity suit and I'm given these

272
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,840
little booties to put on my feet.

273
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,040
By the way, I'm also wearing a diaper.

274
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,440
We're all wearing diapers because there are no bathrooms in there.

275
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:25,320
If you have to go, I did not have to use mine, but if you have to go, there's nowhere for

276
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,320
you to go in there.

277
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,320
We're going to be in there for hours.

278
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,040
We're going to be with the police after.

279
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:31,840
So we actually wore those just in case.

280
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,560
So I'm sitting in the back of this car in the middle of nowhere in the dark in a diaper,

281
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,320
in a biosecurity suit.

282
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,880
I'm alone.

283
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:46,280
Someone has just ran in the dark to the farm, ran top speed to go and check out the doors

284
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,160
are still unlocked if we can still go in before we all go.

285
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,880
And I'm just thinking like, what am I doing here?

286
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:52,880
This is crazy.

287
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:59,960
But then we're given the go-ahead that we're going to assemble.

288
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,600
And the first thing we want to do is we want to take a picture.

289
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,080
So a lot of people have seen this picture.

290
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:10,200
It's been the cover photo for our event, our court date event pages and that sort of thing.

291
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,120
But we're in the dark.

292
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:17,800
We're underneath the sign outside of the farm says Poor Greg across the top.

293
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:23,680
Poor Greg is the name of the farm because porc is pork in French and their name was

294
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:24,680
Grégoire.

295
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:30,200
It was a family-run farm by the Grégoires.

296
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:38,040
So anyway, we're at this farm and there's this car and their headlights are going to

297
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,960
be put onto us because there's no other light there.

298
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:40,960
So we take the photos.

299
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:47,960
Someone had to put their car so that the lights are shining on us and we line up and we have

300
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,980
some piglets in our arms.

301
00:20:51,980 --> 00:20:52,980
Some dead piglets.

302
00:20:52,980 --> 00:20:53,980
They're not alive.

303
00:20:53,980 --> 00:20:54,980
They're dead.

304
00:20:54,980 --> 00:20:58,120
And some masks, some pig masks.

305
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,000
They look like we're like pig face masks.

306
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,440
And we take the picture and then it's time to go in.

307
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,560
So we go towards the door.

308
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,560
We get there.

309
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:09,560
Our hearts are all beating fast.

310
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:16,000
Most of us, I think all of us, I don't think any of us, no, maybe most of us, almost all

311
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,920
of us have never done this before.

312
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,680
I've never gone into a farm before.

313
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:29,800
And we open the door and we walk in and it's just shocking.

314
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:30,800
It just hits you.

315
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:43,080
The smell, the atmosphere, and the eyes of all these mother pigs, these sows that are

316
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,040
in cages the size of their own bodies.

317
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280
We were in the gestation area.

318
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:49,280
Gestation?

319
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,280
Gestation?

320
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,280
Or farrowing.

321
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,280
No, excuse me.

322
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,800
Farrowing area where they have their babies next to them.

323
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,720
And they are still in a cage the size of their body.

324
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,680
And then there's another cage for their babies next to them.

325
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,680
So they can't turn around.

326
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,560
They can only stand up and lie down.

327
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:13,120
But the moment you go in, these huge animals with these very human-like eyes are looking

328
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,920
at you and you just can't believe what you're seeing.

329
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,520
You just can't believe that this is legal.

330
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,480
They walk through the door and there they are right in your face and caged with their

331
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,480
babies.

332
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,480
Their babies are also dead, some of them in the cages, dead babies in the hallways.

333
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,640
The smell is just incredible.

334
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,640
There's no windows.

335
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,400
It's just dark in there.

336
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,760
It just feels like somewhere out of a horror film.

337
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,400
And it just got worse as we went on this farm.

338
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,840
Even though it was a local family-run farm, it had about 4,000 animals on it.

339
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:54,360
We spent the next few hours going through every single section and carefully documenting

340
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:56,880
everything that we saw.

341
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,680
It was just, it was very shocking.

342
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:06,400
It is definitely the worst place in the world I have ever been and will probably ever be.

343
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:15,080
I'm even trying to explain how it felt to look at these animals.

344
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,920
There were just so many, there was a variety of just horrible situations.

345
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:25,000
There were the faring area, the gestation area, which is where they're being impregnated

346
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:32,840
and they're in cages their own body there as well on concrete.

347
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:39,300
There was the area where they kept the males, the adult males, which was extremely filthy

348
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:40,720
and we could barely breathe in there.

349
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,280
We couldn't understand how animals could breathe in there.

350
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:49,320
There was the area where there were babies, babies that were too old to be with their

351
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,760
mothers, but not old enough to be with the adults.

352
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,920
They were so overcrowded and so filthy and oppressive.

353
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:02,120
Sorry, that's the word I was trying to find earlier and I couldn't find it for some reason.

354
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:05,200
It was such an oppressive, horrible place.

355
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,520
All these little individuals, they were all so sweet and curious and they wanted to come

356
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,360
up to us.

357
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:21,360
I'm sorry, I'm still like, it's hard to talk about.

358
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:24,600
It's hard to talk about it and I've been ranting for a long time now, so I think I'll

359
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:25,600
stop it.

360
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,200
Let me know what your next question is.

361
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:36,720
I want to now get to the activism part and how to fight this because you're making such

362
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,920
great points.

363
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:46,320
Every argument points to, every piece of information and study we have points to, this is a bad

364
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,320
idea.

365
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,880
This is not a smart idea.

366
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,880
We should abolish those institutions.

367
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,280
Then you have activism work around it.

368
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,680
First of all, would you rate the efficiency?

369
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:10,300
We talked about how social media has helped putting the pressure on them and making them

370
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:12,240
feel threatened.

371
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:19,440
But then you have people breaking in, doing sit-ins inside.

372
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:27,080
You have the animal liberation front who enters those places and liberate animals.

373
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,700
You have all kinds of activism around slaughterhouses.

374
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:36,320
Do you have an idea of which ones are the most efficient in terms of making an impact

375
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:43,700
and getting us near the goal of abolishing those institutions?

376
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:54,120
My thoughts are, I think the most effective are those where we can form coalitions around

377
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,720
the issues.

378
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:04,120
Having forces with environmentally focused organizations and individuals and knowing,

379
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:07,640
okay, there are going to be some differences.

380
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:15,800
You're not going to be dealing with a group that's entirely vegan or same thing with workers'

381
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,160
rights groups.

382
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:29,160
I think forming those coalitions is helpful because sometimes I think it's easy for the

383
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:38,000
general public to look away from animal focused messaging.

384
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:44,620
For all the reasons we've been talking about, people don't want to think about where their

385
00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:52,120
meat comes from, where their dairy comes from, their eggs, et cetera.

386
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,480
It's easy for them to shut down.

387
00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:04,640
But if you're making a broader argument around not just the animals but also human rights,

388
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:12,280
environmental justice, I think then you can... The effect of the message might spread

389
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:18,920
a little more widely.

390
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:27,800
I like what one of your previous guests, Robert Cheek, had to say about, it's really hard

391
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:35,720
to bring people over to your side if you're calling them names and telling them how horrible

392
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,360
they are.

393
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:46,960
But it helps if you can show people these connections and convince people that even

394
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:54,760
if you don't care about the animal issues, they're interconnected with so many other

395
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,640
issues and concerns and hit them where they live.

396
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:06,360
That's their own personal wellbeing for many people.

397
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:15,760
That's their point to all of the implications of this industry.

398
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:23,560
Also I think it helps to put it into historical context and show people this is, historically

399
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,720
speaking, relatively new development.

400
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,020
It's not like we're stuck with it.

401
00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:38,160
It's not like it's part of our... It's not etched into our DNA or something.

402
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:46,480
It's a relatively new social institution and it can be changed.

403
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:55,480
It just takes people being willing to mobilize and work with other people.

404
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:05,240
I think that helps to get the message out and also fighting as hard as possible against

405
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:17,040
these legislative aims and strategies to prevent the public from gaining information about

406
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,480
what's going on.

407
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:27,960
I think people should have the right to know how their food is being produced.

408
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:34,080
I don't think there's anything all that controversial in that statement.

409
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:45,760
I think conveying that to people might help to make them think, okay, yeah, that's a fair

410
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,040
point.

411
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:59,040
I also think it can help sometimes to put yourself in a position where you can be a

412
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,520
model for other people and say, okay, I was once in the position that you were.

413
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:15,480
I didn't know what was going on, but now I do and here's how I live my life as a result.

414
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,720
I think that's important.

415
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,480
To be honest with you, it's something I didn't used to do as much as I do now.

416
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:29,640
It occurred to me one day, I was teaching a class and it was corporate and governmental

417
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,520
crime class.

418
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,880
We were talking about a number of different industries and we were talking about the animal

419
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,560
agriculture industry.

420
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:44,500
At one point, one of my students raised his hands and said, but what's the solution?

421
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:48,160
It's not like we can all be vegan, we would die.

422
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,920
He really thought that.

423
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:59,560
At that moment, I realized, okay, I need to start telling my students that I'm vegan because

424
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,880
otherwise they really do believe these things.

425
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,760
Some of that is sponsored by the industry itself.

426
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:15,920
Tell people that they're going to die from protein deficiencies or that they need meat

427
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,280
to survive.

428
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:26,080
I think sometimes it can help to put yourself out there and say, okay, look, this is totally

429
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,340
feasible for you to do.

430
00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:40,880
My caveat to that is be ready for people to try to discredit what you're saying because

431
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,260
you're taking that position, because you're vegan.

432
00:31:44,260 --> 00:31:49,480
Even if you're speaking about something that's totally unrelated.

433
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,560
I've had that happen.

434
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:57,360
I actually just had an instance of it a couple months ago where I had to appear as an expert

435
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,800
witness in a court case.

436
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,120
It was totally unrelated to food.

437
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,720
One of the first things during cross-examination that was raised was, Dr. Fitzgerald, would

438
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,880
you agree that eating meat is wrong?

439
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:22,680
I answered it, honestly, but I thought the question has nothing to do with the case,

440
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:29,040
but the reason it was raised was to try to discredit everything else that I was saying.

441
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:37,680
I think the more that people put themselves out there and identify as healthy vegans,

442
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,680
I think that can help.

443
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:46,080
Like I said, just be ready because you will have people who will challenge everything

444
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:58,960
you have to say because you've made that position clear.

445
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:06,520
Covering the topic of factory farming has helped me understand better the powerful role

446
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,280
played by veterinarians in the exploitation of animals.

447
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:17,320
I had the chance to welcome one of the most vocal activists on this issue, Dr. Crystal

448
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Heath.

449
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:26,080
She founded an organization called Our Honor, and they sell great merch on their website.

450
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:32,480
Mugs and t-shirts are printed with the words, my favorite veterinarians don't eat their

451
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:33,480
patients.

452
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,680
I think that message captures perfectly the issue.

453
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:45,300
I want you to hear from her, but first Marina Belotnikova, who is this super smart and talented

454
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:48,240
reporter working for Vox.

455
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,240
Look her up.

456
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:58,520
She wrote an article on Dr. Heath and veterinarians in general, and it did not go as planned.

457
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,200
Take a listen.

458
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,720
So Marina, I first heard from you, of you from Dr. Heath.

459
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,160
I interviewed her on episode 12 of the podcast.

460
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:17,160
Basically she's a veterinarian who spoke up about animal abuse and got this huge backlash,

461
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,560
and she was basically canceled.

462
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:26,600
And you wrote about her in an article called The Bitter Civil War Dividing American Veterinarians

463
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,680
back in January.

464
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:34,760
So as an icebreaker question, I was wondering if you could maybe reflect back on that article

465
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,320
and maybe share with us some details that did not make the final cut.

466
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:40,320
Yeah.

467
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,320
Yeah.

468
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,040
Thank you for calling out that story.

469
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,760
That was one of my favorite stories I worked on, and I think it's so important.

470
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,360
It was about how the veterinary profession and the institutions of veterinary medicine,

471
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:59,120
the American Veterinary Medical Association is the biggest one, are basically structurally

472
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:07,400
and systematically aligned with factory farming and the interests of the meat industry.

473
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:17,560
It came out of like, in early 2020, I was doing a lot of reporting on the rise of, about

474
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:26,940
the 2022 bird flu, which resulted in the mass extermination of nearly 60 million chickens

475
00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:32,280
and turkeys over the course of about a year.

476
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:39,880
And I wrote about what was happening to these animals that had to be mass killed whenever

477
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,340
there was a bird flu outbreak detected at a factory farm.

478
00:35:43,340 --> 00:35:47,860
And I wrote a lot about the rise of a method called ventilation shutdown.

479
00:35:47,860 --> 00:35:54,160
You probably heard about it if you know crystal, and it's been very topical in the animal movement

480
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:55,760
the last couple of years.

481
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,000
But a ventilation shutdown basically means mass exterminating animals through heat stroke.

482
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:09,360
So they literally, like the factory farms literally rent industrial heaters and pump

483
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,360
in heat.

484
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,880
Sometimes steam is used in the pork industry, like pump in heat to the sheds to quickly

485
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,400
mass kill animals.

486
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,000
So you can compare it to a dog dying in a hot car.

487
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:28,680
He's literally death by heat stroke, and this takes hours for animals to die from this in

488
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,960
the poultry industry.

489
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:41,000
So it's like, in case it's not obvious, it's basically the most inhumane and the most excruciating

490
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:50,600
way to cull animals, despite the euphemism that you sometimes hear the industry using

491
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,960
and calling this a kind of euthanasia.

492
00:36:52,960 --> 00:37:03,000
So I did a lot of writing and reporting on that, and through that I picked up on how

493
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:13,880
important the veterinary profession was in validating and providing a justification and

494
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:20,520
basically like a scientific and medical and moral cover for it.

495
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:26,520
And it made me, like the more and more I learned, I was like, I thought this is really interesting

496
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:32,320
and I think would be surprising to a general audience.

497
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,320
We associate veterinarians with our cats and dogs.

498
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,800
I feel like that's such an evocative association in people's minds.

499
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:52,600
And yet the veterinary profession is actually very closely connected to the institutions

500
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:58,280
that are responsible for animal torture on a massive scale.

501
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:07,080
I was just so fascinated by that and the political and intellectual history of veterinary medicine,

502
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,680
how it came to be that way.

503
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,880
And so yeah, and I decided to turn it into a story.

504
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:20,400
I was actually, so I started working at Vox last November.

505
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:27,520
Before that I had been freelancing and I pitched this story around to, so back when I was a

506
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,520
freelancer, I pitched this story idea to so many outlets.

507
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:39,160
I had a spreadsheet tracking everywhere where I was sending a pitch and this pitch had gone

508
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,760
out to literally 17 different places and I just couldn't get it picked up.

509
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,400
And I was so baffled because I think it's so interesting, so important.

510
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,520
There's so much there.

511
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:55,240
It's like, it's, obviously it's such a real story.

512
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:57,560
And it was discouraging.

513
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,660
And then I started my job at Vox.

514
00:38:59,660 --> 00:39:04,480
In my section we write a lot about factory farming and animal rights.

515
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,280
And so it was a no-brainer for this veterinarian story to fit there.

516
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,160
So I ended up writing it for Vox.

517
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:20,040
It was published this past January of 2023 and it did, audience traffic wise, it did

518
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:27,200
very well because the headline, the Civil War, dividing veterinarians.

519
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,740
I think people want to read about that.

520
00:39:29,740 --> 00:39:34,340
Even if they don't have a special interest in factory farming, I think that that subject

521
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:36,440
is so intriguing.

522
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:37,800
Yeah.

523
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:45,320
So I'm really happy I did it and I want to continue reporting on the veterinary profession

524
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,320
for sure.

525
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:53,120
So, doctor, tell me, is there a fight you want to talk about and that you're leading

526
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,600
with your organization and I haven't asked you about?

527
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:04,280
We are also addressing the harmful use of animals in medical school training, veterinary

528
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,280
school training.

529
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:13,720
People don't realize that veterinary students have to kill their patients often in veterinary

530
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:14,760
school.

531
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:24,380
The cadavers that students use to learn anatomy, they're often animals purchased from bioscience

532
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:28,520
companies, purposefully bred for that purpose.

533
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,480
And there's an alternative, there's humane ethical alternatives which are willed body

534
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:35,480
programs.

535
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:42,520
When our own dog, cat, horse, goat passes away, we can donate their body to veterinary school

536
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,400
for veterinary students to learn on.

537
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,720
We don't need to be purposefully breeding animals for veterinary students to learn on.

538
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:57,480
But also, there are veterinary students who have to anesthetize a healthy animal, perform

539
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,080
one or more surgeries on them, and then kill them before the animal is even allowed to

540
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,600
wake up.

541
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:09,600
And that is horrifying and against our ethics.

542
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:15,640
And students are bullied into doing this, worrying that they're going to face a failing grade,

543
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,920
worried that they're going to be ostracized.

544
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,600
And the threats are really ramping up.

545
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:25,320
I feel like the veterinary students are even more afraid now to speak up when it's very

546
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,320
clear.

547
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,040
There's no evidence against these sorts of training models when there's so many more

548
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,040
alternatives.

549
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,240
But the students are at the same time more fearful about speaking up.

550
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:40,560
So we're going to put on some Know Your Rights trainings in the future for veterinary students.

551
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,420
If there's any veterinary students out there, and you feel threatened and you feel like

552
00:41:45,420 --> 00:41:48,680
you can't speak up, reach out to us.

553
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:55,360
Our honor wants to write to these schools and advocate for change in curriculum that

554
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,160
requires less animal harm.

555
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,680
We're going to come out with the numbers of how many animals are killed at each school

556
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:08,400
and make a ranking of the most ethical to the least ethical veterinary schools.

557
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,440
And there's going to be a lot more information coming out in that area.

558
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,440
And that's a huge opportunity for change.

559
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,880
And veterinary students shouldn't feel scared.

560
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:28,640
Just know that animal law attorneys are wanting to take on some sort of case First Amendment

561
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,320
attorneys.

562
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,760
We have your back.

563
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,040
There's a lot you can do and a lot of animals you can save.

564
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,160
And some people say, oh, what's the most ethical vet school to go to?

565
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,640
And I encourage if you're bold, go to the worst ones.

566
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:49,520
And because you're going to save more animals by changing the curriculum at the worst schools,

567
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,120
you could save thousands of animals by changing the curriculum.

568
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,240
Whereas you're not going to save any animals if you go to school that doesn't harm animals.

569
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:01,020
So that's my philosophy.

570
00:43:01,020 --> 00:43:06,960
So stay tuned and follow us on social media to hear more about that.

571
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,200
Why are they not suing the colleges?

572
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,680
Because this is a traumatizing experience.

573
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:20,160
I hear about lectures getting cancelled in colleges because they are insensitive.

574
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:28,760
And then there's this horrible situation going on at your vet school department.

575
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:35,480
If this is not a lawsuit material, then I don't know what it is.

576
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,480
And it's against our oath.

577
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,760
It's anti the three Rs.

578
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,200
The most welfarist basic.

579
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,040
This isn't even animal rights stuff we're talking about here.

580
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,280
This is basic adhering to the ethics of the veterinary profession.

581
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,400
And Gary did sue a lot of schools for this.

582
00:43:54,400 --> 00:44:00,920
And sadly, there's been silence lately.

583
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,080
I feel like we really need to ramp that up again.

584
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,080
More lawsuits.

585
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:17,120
There's so much potential here for change.

586
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:23,920
I think that what Dr. Heat went through was a case of discrimination.

587
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:30,520
Discrimination for her speech, for her beliefs, for basically being vegan.

588
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,840
And that was one other incredible team covered by the podcast.

589
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:42,480
When the amazing Tamara Bedeck, chair of the animal rights committee for the New York National

590
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:49,280
Lawyers Guild, reached out to me and asked if I would like to partner and promote a webinar

591
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,960
they held on vegan discrimination, I said yes.

592
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:53,960
Right away.

593
00:44:53,960 --> 00:45:00,280
I interviewed Tamara and one participant of the webinar Astrid Prevot, whose legal case

594
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,560
against France National School of Dietitians was pending.

595
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,000
Let's hear what they had to say.

596
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:13,560
You have individual discrimination cases that are moving forward because vegans are being

597
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:20,800
discriminated against at work, at school, in divorce proceedings, in detention.

598
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,600
Well let's give some concrete examples to listeners.

599
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:25,600
Sure.

600
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,360
Well, all right.

601
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,120
I'll start sort of sequentially with the US and Jerry Friedman's case.

602
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:40,560
So Jerry Friedman was at the time a computer, he was a computer repair person for Kaiser

603
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,240
Permanente, which is a very large hospital chain.

604
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:50,680
And he was working for a pharmaceutical company repairing their computers and they were very

605
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,240
happy with his work.

606
00:45:52,240 --> 00:46:00,960
And they offered him a full-time permanent position, which he was very happy to accept

607
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,000
or as happy as a vegan in a pharmaceutical company could be.

608
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:13,600
But he did accept the position and then they told him that he must be vaccinated and take

609
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,640
the MMR vaccine.

610
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:22,400
And Jerry said, you know, this vaccine is cultured from chicken embryos and I don't

611
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,920
feel comfortable taking it.

612
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:39,360
Perhaps we can keep me in the computer repair shop away from anyone who might be a patient

613
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,680
and accommodate me that way.

614
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:48,960
And they said no and they rescinded the job offer, the full-time job offer, and they stopped

615
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,120
using his services as a contractor.

616
00:46:52,120 --> 00:47:00,200
So they backpedaled quite a bit and he was horrified and he took them to task on it.

617
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:09,520
Jordi Casamidana's case about 20 years later or 18 years later came about because he was

618
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,160
working for League Against Cruel Sports.

619
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,240
And as an ethical vegan, he was curious as to where his pension fund was going.

620
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:24,080
So investing in a pension fund became mandatory, I think, in 2015 in the UK.

621
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:32,800
So everyone at LACS had a pension fund and he was just curious as to what he was investing

622
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:33,800
in.

623
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:40,520
He found out, much to his horror, that he was investing in tobacco, oil, and big pharma

624
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,360
that tested on animals.

625
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,440
So he raised this with his managers.

626
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,540
They appeared equally horrified.

627
00:47:48,540 --> 00:47:54,400
They told him they would change the pension fund, but in fact they didn't.

628
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,920
And despite nudging them for over a year, they didn't.

629
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:05,600
And in the course of that year, he begged them to at least stop investing his own money

630
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:11,200
so that it wasn't like his own pension was contributing to animal testing.

631
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,800
It turns out they didn't even do that.

632
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:23,280
So he found a mechanism to change his own pension fund to something more ethical.

633
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:31,240
And he changed his own pension fund, his own monetary stream, to something more ethical.

634
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:35,200
And he told his colleagues at LACS about it.

635
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:40,080
And LACS fired him.

636
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:46,120
Astrid Prevost is an aspiring dietitian in France.

637
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,280
To get her dietitian's license, there was a mandatory cooking class.

638
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,520
I don't know why there was a mandatory cooking class, but there was.

639
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,920
They insisted that she use animal ingredients.

640
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:06,240
She requested to be able to substitute the animal ingredients with vegan alternatives.

641
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:07,760
She even got a doctor's note.

642
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:14,120
They said no, and that she would risk failing the cooking class and thereby not being able

643
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:22,660
to pursue her dietitian's degree unless she used animal products.

644
00:49:22,660 --> 00:49:26,760
So there are other kinds of cases as well.

645
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:33,120
There are cases in detention or in hospitals where a person in detention is not getting

646
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:40,880
vegan food despite the fact that they are quite clear about what it is they eat.

647
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:46,520
We're hoping that Representative Congressman Ro Khanna opens the webinar.

648
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:51,060
We're waiting for his staff to give us the green light and let us know if he's available

649
00:49:51,060 --> 00:49:54,760
for a couple of minutes on October 17.

650
00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:01,120
Congressman Khanna is very involved in making sure that American servicemen and women have

651
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:06,480
plant-based and vegan options in the military.

652
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,400
The congressman of which state?

653
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:11,400
California.

654
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:18,440
So there are these many, many different examples where vegans are.

655
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,040
I'll give you a sort of divorce example.

656
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,960
Imagine, if you will, you have two people divorcing.

657
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,960
One is not vegan.

658
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,240
One is vegan.

659
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:37,100
The not vegan claims that the vegan is jeopardizing the health of their child and should therefore

660
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:39,520
be the parent that gets custody.

661
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:46,160
Now in some places they may or may not be laughed at because we know that it's entirely

662
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:53,240
possible to have a child that's on a vegan diet and have that child be extremely healthy.

663
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:58,080
But in some places that's quite a strong argument.

664
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:04,360
And there are some places in the world where to be vegan is to be openly vegan is to be

665
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,520
scared of retaliation where vegans are called terrorists.

666
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:18,320
There's a Italian politician who wants vegan parents to go to jail, go to jail, vegan parents

667
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:25,360
to go to jail because they're jeopardizing the health of their child.

668
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:31,220
So depending on where you are in the world, your discrimination is going to be different

669
00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:33,080
and more or less severe.

670
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:40,640
So Astrid, my first question for you is why did you decide to be vocal about your fight?

671
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:47,120
Well, I decided to be vocal about my fight because I think it's very important for other

672
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:55,000
vegans to realize that we can fight for our rights and also that our rights defend animal

673
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,000
rights.

674
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,000
It's all linked.

675
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,480
So I think it's very important not to just let it go.

676
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:08,480
What I know is that discrimination against vegans really prevents people from becoming

677
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,960
vegans because people are afraid to be discriminated against.

678
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:19,520
Some become vegan and then they quit veganism because of the social injustice and because

679
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:26,120
they feel they are not accepted and they are mocked and they have a hard time finding food

680
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:27,720
where they live.

681
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:36,280
So yeah, I think discrimination against vegans has really like very concrete outcomes.

682
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:43,920
And so yeah, I think that's also why we should fight against it because the final outcome

683
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:57,320
is that it promotes animal exploitation, even if it's not direct, but still.

684
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:03,160
Even though this podcast is in English and my reference countries are pretty much Canada

685
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:10,840
and the US, I really try my best to cover the animal rights fights going on in other

686
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:18,400
countries like France with Astrid, but also Vietnam with the inspiring Catherine, founder

687
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:25,940
of Vietnam Animal Aid and Rescue, George, founder of Lebanese Vegans, Jimena, founder

688
00:53:25,940 --> 00:53:33,760
of Obstructious Microsanctuary in Columbia, and ASMR Nobility, Whispers Red, founder of

689
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,720
Wispouse, a sanctuary located in Serbia.

690
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:41,160
I admire them so much.

691
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:48,800
Their battle is such an uphill battle, yet here they are making breakthrough after breakthrough,

692
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:55,480
claiming victory after victory against cruelty and violence.

693
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:56,920
I live in a tourist town.

694
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:57,920
It's the same thing.

695
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,520
We get all these messages from people saying, I found this kitten on the side of the road.

696
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,320
I'm leaving tomorrow.

697
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:04,960
What can you take the kitten?

698
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:05,960
No.

699
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:12,480
Well, I mean, we can't because you're one of nine this week that have sent me that message.

700
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:17,640
I know you feel powerless and helpless and whatever, but I don't own an island to put

701
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,280
all these cats on.

702
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:20,280
Let's get this straight.

703
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,000
There is just no place for them to go.

704
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,720
You have to get used to the idea that you can't help everybody.

705
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:30,420
I think that's one of the worst parts of being a compassionate and empathetic person is being

706
00:54:30,420 --> 00:54:34,080
able to close your eyes and say, I understand the big picture.

707
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:42,160
I'm doing everything I can on a daily basis, particularly as vegans, to eliminate my part

708
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,960
in exploitation, torture and murder.

709
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:52,400
That's bigger than what everybody else around here is doing.

710
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,240
You can't help every single individual.

711
00:54:54,240 --> 00:55:00,560
There's not the resources or the homes or the space or the veterinarians.

712
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:02,840
It just isn't like that.

713
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:08,720
I can say that after 10 years running a rescue, but ultimately it is what led me to run a

714
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:09,720
rescue.

715
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,760
This idea of like, I'm not going to stand for this.

716
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:14,440
I won't stand for this.

717
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,200
I will do something.

718
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,840
I am somebody who can do something.

719
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:25,360
Listen, Ryan, I think that the problem resides not just in Lebanon.

720
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:35,040
So a key question to this podcast might be how are animals treated and perceived by Lebanese

721
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,040
people?

722
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:37,040
Sure.

723
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:42,400
Listen, Ryan, I think that the problem resides not just in Lebanon, but worldwide.

724
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:47,960
Of course, now there are countries that are more animal welfareists than others, but when

725
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:54,520
it comes to animal rights, all of us who are very far behind.

726
00:55:54,520 --> 00:56:00,800
So regarding animal welfare, we have some few organizations that take care about cats

727
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:08,560
and dogs, basically pets, but they brand themselves as animal organizations, whereas they only

728
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:13,720
focus on a few cats and dogs and a few horses, which I am completely against because it gives

729
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:21,720
the impression that all other animals are okay to abuse and to gain and to eat.

730
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:28,080
The community is being educated as much as possible with Lebanese Veganism Organization

731
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:33,080
that I created years ago and others as well.

732
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:39,840
We try as much as possible to expose the horrors about animal agriculture, especially regarding

733
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:46,480
the ethical aspect of it, because we're vegan for ethics and it's all about ethics.

734
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:51,960
Of course, now we have advantages of going vegan relating to the environment and our

735
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:53,280
health, but mainly it's for ethics.

736
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:58,240
So yeah, we try as much as possible in Lebanon, especially that here the mentality is quite

737
00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:06,800
like, I mean, manly in a way that, you know, you should be eating some kind of meat to

738
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:13,160
be man or something of the sort, which is completely wrong, of course, especially like

739
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:19,160
in the mountains, they still eat sometimes some raw meat with some spices, you know.

740
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:26,440
So yeah, the more we go away from the capital, Beirut, the more the idea of animal rights

741
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:32,920
and veganism becomes blurry, you know, but yeah, as much as possible, we try to raise

742
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,400
awareness and we're on it.

743
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,240
What is it like to have an animal sanctuary in Colombia?

744
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,360
Is veganism?

745
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:43,920
It's very hard.

746
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:51,480
I can relate with Jessica and Tracy about the fear because in Colombia cattle farming

747
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,200
is very important.

748
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:06,080
It's not just an industry, a powerful industry, but it was related with foreign military army

749
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,760
years ago.

750
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,280
They are very powerful.

751
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:20,200
So when you try to make a cultural transformation, people doesn't take it like, ah, that's cool.

752
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,920
No, it's like you want to change me.

753
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:23,920
You're crazy.

754
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:24,920
You're rebellious.

755
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:25,920
People doesn't like it.

756
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:36,720
At the beginning of the sanctuary, it was at the same time of the pandemic.

757
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:43,320
Our sanctuary was vandalized a few times.

758
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:50,760
We were always with the fear that because they, if they broke some pipes or steal some

759
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,360
machinery or whatever, it doesn't matter.

760
00:58:53,360 --> 00:59:02,360
But we were always afraid that they may come to the or hurt the girls, the cows.

761
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:07,320
So it was difficult to deal with.

762
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:14,040
That's why I was saying before that we are just like put again ourself on our feet because

763
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:23,840
it was not just bankruptcy, but all the attacks that we had at the beginning.

764
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:29,720
Even from my husband's family, they are all cattle farmers.

765
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,960
And right now in Colombia, there is a debate.

766
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:39,360
In fact, tomorrow is the final debate of the Congress about bullfighting.

767
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:52,640
And our neighbor at the farm is one of the main bullfighting lawyers.

768
00:59:52,640 --> 01:00:02,920
He owns, in fact, the main bullfighting ring in Bogota has his last name, Santa Maria.

769
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,000
So it has been difficult.

770
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:14,440
It has been a difficult path, but I think we were able to do it.

771
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:19,760
And right now we are feeling more comfortable and that's why we are planning to move to

772
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,480
the farm with the cattle.

773
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:27,360
So we are not depending on someone or feeling that fear.

774
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:35,280
But if we are there, I think we can feel more comfortable and safe being all the time with

775
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,760
the animals.

776
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:50,360
So but it's always the there are nice people, but there are always the people with the prejudice

777
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:57,440
that you're crazy and you're trying to you're a hippie.

778
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:03,880
Like they say in Colombia, you're a weed smoker like Maribuanero.

779
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:15,760
So like crazy once the sanctuary was broadcasted at the TV national news.

780
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:21,480
Some people were like insulting us or saying like ugly things.

781
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:32,280
So but I think that is part of the choice that we made trying to promote a cultural

782
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:39,660
transformation that respect and having into account animal lives.

783
01:01:39,660 --> 01:01:47,760
So I think this is the price and we were we were willing to assume that and we are in

784
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:52,720
that in that in that way.

785
01:01:52,720 --> 01:02:03,920
So many times I've been in a situation where they're talking about me in Serbian, assuming

786
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:09,840
that the only reason why an English person or any person would come over to Serbia to

787
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:16,360
do something with the animals is because they were trying to make money somehow.

788
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:23,840
And and then of course, I find out because the manager of the sanctuary who who the family

789
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:30,080
that live there and take care of the animals, they were very close and people don't expect

790
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,960
that we are that close.

791
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:40,960
So I learn everything that they've been saying in Serbian because their perception of animals

792
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,200
is so different to us.

793
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:48,960
And it's not that they're not good people.

794
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:55,240
It's that they have a complete indifference to animals.

795
01:02:55,240 --> 01:03:01,160
They're not they're not connected to everything around them like we like we are.

796
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,840
It's quite difficult to explain.

797
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:08,520
And I'm still I'm still trying to figure it all out anyway.

798
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:14,360
But they're just objects to them.

799
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:15,360
The possessions.

800
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:24,800
But I would argue that this is one good reason of opening a sanctuary in Serbia because this

801
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:30,560
feeling is the default feeling of the people there.

802
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:40,520
A sanctuary is such a rebellious entity in such context.

803
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:47,060
And it's there to also teach them is there, of course, to help the dogs, the animals,

804
01:03:47,060 --> 01:03:52,440
but also to teach them that compassion, to teach them to make that link with animals.

805
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:53,440
Yeah.

806
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,720
To set an example through action.

807
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:57,720
It's very, very difficult.

808
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,720
I'll be honest.

809
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:05,120
So many times I've felt like giving up because it's just not easy.

810
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:09,600
And to run a charity full stop just isn't easy at all.

811
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:17,960
But to operate in an environment like that when I'm not there all the time as well.

812
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:23,320
So, so the family that we're very close to that are managing the place and with the animals

813
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:24,320
24 seven.

814
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,760
I mean, they've got the greatest hearts.

815
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,080
They're such beautiful people.

816
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:34,760
But we've even, you know, we've still had to have the conversations about and set the

817
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:39,320
policies on exactly how they take care of the animals because they've grown up with

818
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:40,520
no money at all.

819
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:47,800
They've never been able to afford to to neuter an animal or to keep them, you know, in the

820
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,120
conditions that we've got them in.

821
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,440
They've never been able to afford anything like that.

822
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:52,440
So it's not there.

823
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:57,000
It's not the one thing that they think of straight away.

824
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:04,280
I took over some heaters for our living space for the dogs back in January.

825
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:08,160
And it took me a while to convince them that they need to actually put them on for more

826
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,960
often than more often than they were because they were thinking, well, it's going to cost

827
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:13,240
a fortune.

828
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:19,600
And I said, well, yes, but the dogs will freeze.

829
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:20,600
And they love the dogs.

830
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:22,720
You know, it's hard.

831
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:29,000
It's hard for me to explain because they love the dogs, but they've never lived in a situation

832
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:35,560
where they could afford to heat the dogs and their default position is, but we can't afford

833
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:37,360
it.

834
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:42,360
So you know, we still have to have these conversations where we decide exactly how we're going to

835
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:47,200
do things and then make sure they're done.

836
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:53,360
And then we're dealing with the public and the people that just think, oh, you know,

837
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:54,360
there's a sanctuary there.

838
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:59,640
We'll just, we'll just dump the dogs outside the gate.

839
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,120
We'll dump the puppies outside the gate or not even that.

840
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:07,800
They just leave them on the road further up.

841
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:15,000
And the locals who we went to pick up a dog.

842
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,880
This guy wants to get rid of his, his pointer.

843
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:25,720
He was about eight years old and he's, he's in the local village and we went to see him.

844
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:29,800
And normally they would take that dog and they would just dump them by a busy road.

845
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,140
So you know, he didn't, he didn't do that.

846
01:06:32,140 --> 01:06:33,640
He contacted us.

847
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:35,960
So that was a good thing.

848
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,760
But he wants to get rid of him because he's eight years old.

849
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:39,760
He's had enough of him.

850
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,760
He couldn't, he said he couldn't afford to feed him anymore.

851
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,120
His wife was in hospital, fair enough.

852
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:52,000
But when we went round there, this dog was in such terrible condition, kept in a tiny

853
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:56,320
little cage and that didn't need to, that didn't need to happen.

854
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,960
Regardless of whether he had money or not, he didn't need to do that because he had a

855
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:06,160
courtyard that the dog could have been in.

856
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:11,680
But he, he thought, he thought that it was fine that the dog was in the cage and he had

857
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:13,640
lots of cats around.

858
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:19,760
And and of course, and whenever I'm around cats, like I can't stop touching them and

859
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:24,160
I'm standing there and these cats are coming towards me.

860
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:29,200
And so I'm like, you know, chatting with the cats and, and I picked up one cat and I'm

861
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:34,120
cuddling this cat and, and the guy just turned to me, said, I'll take the cat.

862
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:38,000
I said, what do you mean?

863
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:39,200
Just take it.

864
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:40,840
Because he wanted us to take the dog.

865
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,440
So he was in his mind, he was being nice to me.

866
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:47,760
Just have what you want as long as you take the dog.

867
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,960
But I said, I said, no, this is the cat.

868
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,580
This is your cat's home.

869
01:07:52,580 --> 01:07:57,500
And all of these cats here, they're your cat's family.

870
01:07:57,500 --> 01:07:59,720
I'm not going to take them.

871
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:05,720
Why would I, you know, it was just in his mind, he was being kind.

872
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:10,300
But in mine, obviously I'm like, you can't do that.

873
01:08:10,300 --> 01:08:13,800
You can't just give away the cat just like that.

874
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:18,400
Not even knowing where the cat's going to go or what environment they're going to be

875
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:24,600
living in or, you know, it was just, I've come across these situations that are really

876
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:29,440
strange often when I, when I go there.

877
01:08:29,440 --> 01:08:31,680
And and it's heartbreaking really.

878
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:36,520
I mean, that's definitely nowhere near the worst situation that there is over there.

879
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:38,520
That's that's very tame.

880
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,720
But it's just a small example.

881
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:46,800
But the way that some people treat animals out there is absolutely disgusting.

882
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:48,760
It's absolutely heartbreaking.

883
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:52,560
And yeah.

884
01:08:52,560 --> 01:09:03,540
Finally, talking about uphill battles, let's get political.

885
01:09:03,540 --> 01:09:07,800
This podcast has not shied away from being political.

886
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:15,840
I welcomed the amazing address and the so very kind Michelle, two vegans identifying

887
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,240
as conservatives.

888
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:25,320
I also welcomed Liz White, leader of the Animal Protection Party of Canada, Miles Trafigen,

889
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:31,320
a researcher who wants us to demolish the southern border wall, and Dr. Vlasak, who

890
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:37,360
defends the illegal actions of the ALF, the Animal Liberation Front.

891
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:41,960
So basically people from everywhere on the political spectrum.

892
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,040
So take a listen.

893
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:48,800
I'm wondering why did you choose to appear as guests on this podcast, because it can

894
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:53,560
be a bit intimidating to talk publicly about your position.

895
01:09:53,560 --> 01:10:01,240
So I'm curious, what made you want to become guests on on the vegan world?

896
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:02,640
Would you like me to go first?

897
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:03,640
Sure.

898
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:04,640
Okay.

899
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:12,600
So I saw your Reddit and I was like, oh, because you know, there's just this huge political

900
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:13,600
divide.

901
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:15,320
And I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna take a chance.

902
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:21,760
I'm gonna put it out there, because maybe we can find something that will give us that

903
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,840
common ground that will bring us all together.

904
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:29,320
There's actually more conservative vegans than you can even begin to imagine.

905
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:33,720
I'm part of a conservative vegan Facebook group.

906
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,680
For a small group, there's only 1500.

907
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:42,000
But that's 1500 people strong, you know, and I feel like that's just in Florida.

908
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,560
Maybe there's more.

909
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,400
And so I love that you opened this up.

910
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,000
And I think it's a great thing.

911
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:50,880
Yeah, similar.

912
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:57,960
Anytime there's some discussion about veganism and right wing politics or just politics in

913
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,120
general, I do like to chime in.

914
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:06,720
I like to remind people that vegans don't all fit into one box politically.

915
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:11,680
Gary Yourofsky, if you're familiar, he has a very famous speech that's a lot of people's

916
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:13,160
first introduction to veganism.

917
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:14,160
All right.

918
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:15,160
Good afternoon, everybody.

919
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:16,160
My name is Gary Yourofsky.

920
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:21,160
Please take a moment and jot down my email address and my website in case you want to

921
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:22,160
contact me later on.

922
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:27,160
Today, we're going to talk about the world's forgotten victims, animals, and the world's

923
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:35,840
oldest and strongest addiction, meat.

924
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:41,620
And he at the start of his speech, he's saying, you don't have to change anything.

925
01:11:41,620 --> 01:11:46,640
You don't have to give up your friend group, your religious beliefs, your political beliefs,

926
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:47,640
just leave animals alone.

927
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:52,560
I am not trying to take you away from your religion.

928
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,880
No religion mandates meat eating.

929
01:11:55,880 --> 01:12:03,760
The golden rule states do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.

930
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:10,680
Animals qualify as others and thou shalt not kill.

931
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:16,360
The four most important yet most ignored words in all religious teachings.

932
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:21,160
There's not an asterisk next to that commandment saying, unless you walk on all fours, have

933
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:24,600
fur, feathers, horns, beaks, or gills.

934
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:30,080
You can keep your friends, your politics, and your patriotism, still watch your favorite

935
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:35,760
TV shows and listen to your favorite music, even if it's Ted Nugent.

936
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:42,920
So I like to remind people that you don't have to abandon these beliefs or change who

937
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:44,160
you are really.

938
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:49,280
It's all about just kind of aligning your actions with your beliefs.

939
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,760
And a lot of us believe that animal abuse is bad.

940
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:58,720
So regardless of what you believe politically, economically, religiously, you can live in

941
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:00,440
a way that leaves animals alone.

942
01:13:00,440 --> 01:13:02,680
So I definitely want to highlight that.

943
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:06,440
And so I'm grateful for the opportunity.

944
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:11,840
The most common thing that people say to me when I talk about the political parties, they

945
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:12,840
hate politics.

946
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:14,680
They don't like politicians.

947
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:15,680
They don't trust them.

948
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,160
They don't want to have anything to do with them.

949
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,600
They're going to turn their back on democracy and walk away.

950
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:26,020
And I say to them, that is a huge mistake.

951
01:13:26,020 --> 01:13:32,640
Because like it or not, if we really want things to change for animals in Canada, we

952
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,040
have to do the politics.

953
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:36,040
And it's the politicians.

954
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:38,800
They're the gatekeepers of all the legislation.

955
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:43,680
They decide who lives, who dies, when they die, in what manner, is it cruel, how they're

956
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:45,680
sold, what's done with them.

957
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:47,720
All of that is political.

958
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:53,000
And until we address that, there is no way that we are going to change the landscape

959
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:57,960
with regard to how we treat animals, particularly food animals, which of course, accounts for

960
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,840
the largest number.

961
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:07,000
There was a law that was enacted in 2005 called the Real ID Act of 2005.

962
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:08,600
And that sounds fairly benign.

963
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,620
Okay, we're all supposed to carry identification.

964
01:14:11,620 --> 01:14:18,680
But there was a clause in that law that said that the Secretary of Homeland Security has

965
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:24,720
the authority and power to waive all laws for the construction of border barriers.

966
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:32,000
And this includes the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the

967
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:36,800
Rivers and Protection Act, the Wilderness Act, Bald Eagle, Golden Eagle protection.

968
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:42,640
And the list goes on to about 70 different laws that they have the authority to waive.

969
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:50,060
And so because of this, we were not able to do environmental studies to try to assess

970
01:14:50,060 --> 01:14:58,040
the impact of the border wall on wildlife, on water, on the ecosystem.

971
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:01,640
So they essentially can just do what they want to do.

972
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:07,200
And that's exactly what they did is they don't really have to notify anybody except to put

973
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,640
it in the US Federal Register saying, we're going to build a border wall here, and we

974
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,280
are waiving all of these laws.

975
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:18,160
And that is a very scary thing.

976
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:27,400
And it set a horrible precedent around the world because this is the erosion of democracy.

977
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:33,080
How can an unelected politically appointed official, which is who the Secretary of Homeland

978
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:39,120
Security is, how do they have the authority to waive laws that both houses of Congress

979
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:44,480
have passed and whatever sitting president signed them into law, and then it withstood

980
01:15:44,480 --> 01:15:48,880
decades of judicial review and challenges at the Supreme Court?

981
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,600
How does that person have the power to do that?

982
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:54,500
Unchecked power.

983
01:15:54,500 --> 01:15:59,560
This is something that people should be scared of because it's starting to proliferate around

984
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:00,560
the world.

985
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:07,040
There are now nearly 70 countries in the world that have border walls.

986
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:15,640
And they are following the same playbook where in Poland and Belarus, they built a border

987
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:21,880
wall two years ago, a 200 kilometer long border wall between Poland and Belarus right through

988
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:27,140
the Białowice Unesco Biosphere Reserve.

989
01:16:27,140 --> 01:16:34,320
So there's bison there, there's wolves, brown bears, and they waived all the laws to construct

990
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:36,560
that.

991
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:39,160
In Slovenia, they're putting up border barriers.

992
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:43,160
And once again, they did the same thing saying that, oh, in order to put these up, we need

993
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:45,700
to bypass all the laws.

994
01:16:45,700 --> 01:16:52,880
And unfortunately, that's something that I believe that the United States exported to

995
01:16:52,880 --> 01:17:03,680
a lot of places who are taking advantage of this autocratic power that really should not

996
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:09,280
exist in a true functioning democracy.

997
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:16,880
Do you believe that our governmental institutions have been captured by the agriculture industry?

998
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:19,400
Well, absolutely.

999
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:24,600
Not only the huge amount of subsidies that are delivered by the government to animal

1000
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:30,120
agriculture, heavily subsidized industries such as the meat and dairy industries, as

1001
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:36,440
one example, make it very clear that the government is in collusion with the animal agriculture

1002
01:17:36,440 --> 01:17:37,440
industry.

1003
01:17:37,440 --> 01:17:44,200
And to no surprise, these are the wealthy corporations that deliver suitcases full of

1004
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:49,920
cash to our government people every year.

1005
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:56,000
So of course, they're going to get what they want, which is the subsidization of their

1006
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:57,000
industry.

1007
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,920
And of course, people in government are just like everybody else, they're a new word to

1008
01:17:59,920 --> 01:18:06,620
the violence they're used to and brainwashed by these industries into thinking that animal

1009
01:18:06,620 --> 01:18:13,160
abuse is completely acceptable, normal, and the usual way of doing business.

1010
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:16,200
And of course, none of that's true.

1011
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:17,200
Yeah.

1012
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:23,000
And that gives the feeling that the game is rigged.

1013
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:31,720
And most certainly after what's happening right now in Canada with the ag-gag laws at

1014
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:41,280
the federal level and how many obstacles we're putting in the way of vegan activists, it

1015
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:53,480
feels like the gold past is moving and that we're playing against such strong forces.

1016
01:18:53,480 --> 01:19:02,340
So yes, civil disobedience is one answer against this issue.

1017
01:19:02,340 --> 01:19:06,920
And I think that's the part that makes people anxious.

1018
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,960
It's breaking the law.

1019
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,440
What would you say about that?

1020
01:19:12,440 --> 01:19:18,780
First of all, point of clarification, at least here in the States, we use civil disobedience

1021
01:19:18,780 --> 01:19:21,860
in a different way.

1022
01:19:21,860 --> 01:19:27,920
Civil disobedience to the best of my knowledge, at least as applied here, implies breaking

1023
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:31,700
the law but doing so openly and accepting the consequences.

1024
01:19:31,700 --> 01:19:37,160
So for instance, if you were to chain yourself in front of a first or something as a statement

1025
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:44,360
and obviously break the law, but fully expect to be arrested and accept those consequences,

1026
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:46,040
we would call that civil disobedience.

1027
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:51,660
What the underground animal liberation movement is doing, such as the ALF, is by our definition

1028
01:19:51,660 --> 01:19:52,660
not really civil disobedience.

1029
01:19:52,660 --> 01:19:59,200
These are people that are breaking the law and getting away with it for the most part

1030
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:02,800
so that they can be out there to do it again.

1031
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:09,400
And breaking the law to help animals is certainly justifiable, is certainly commendable.

1032
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:11,560
We support it 100%.

1033
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:14,640
We have supported it for more than 20 years.

1034
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:20,380
So yeah, that just is a matter of difference in terminology, though we don't use that term

1035
01:20:20,380 --> 01:20:24,400
civil disobedience for what the ALF and other organizations are doing.

1036
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:27,200
And I'm sorry, your original question again?

1037
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:33,040
Yes, I just wanted you to comment on that part of breaking the law.

1038
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:38,080
And I guess this is what people are anxious about.

1039
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:45,800
If you look at every single struggle for liberation, both historically and concurrently in any

1040
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:51,600
movement, whether it was against apartheid in South Africa, whether it was for civil

1041
01:20:51,600 --> 01:21:00,400
rights here in North America, various anti-colonialist efforts in places like Algeria and other

1042
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:07,000
places, all of those struggles for liberation included an underground component.

1043
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:12,480
And it's necessary in all of these struggles because power is not going to give up their

1044
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:16,200
dominance just when you ask them nicely to do so.

1045
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:22,160
They have to be persuaded by a variety of different means and not just illegal means,

1046
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:26,800
but a variety of different means, but including illegal direct action, what we call direct

1047
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:28,280
action.

1048
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,360
And so I don't think the struggle for animal liberation is any different than these other

1049
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:36,460
struggles unless you're a speciesist and you think that animals don't count nearly as much

1050
01:21:36,460 --> 01:21:40,720
as humans, which we believe that animals are just as important as humans.

1051
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:45,160
And so the animal liberation struggle, it's just like all these other liberation struggles

1052
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:46,520
throughout time.

1053
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:51,280
And it will require a component that involves breaking the law.

1054
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:57,360
Each of those other struggles has mostly included the use of real violence.

1055
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:02,040
One could argue in self-defense, again, perfectly justifiable in my mind.

1056
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:06,000
In our mind, certainly justifiable to use violence to protect yourself if someone's

1057
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:08,080
trying to kill you.

1058
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:09,960
You have a right to defend yourself.

1059
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:15,760
And animals are being murdered by the millions every day and they have a right to defend

1060
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:16,760
themselves.

1061
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:20,040
And if they can't defend them, then we have the right to defend them.

1062
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:24,040
Just like if your child is being abused, you have a right to defend your child.

1063
01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:27,600
Well, we have a right to defend animals when they're being abused.

1064
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:32,920
And even though that particular strategy hasn't been widely used in the struggle for animal

1065
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:42,520
liberation, it would certainly be justifiable if it was ever used.

1066
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:44,520
Thank you everyone for listening.

1067
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:47,440
Please don't hesitate to reach out.

1068
01:22:47,440 --> 01:22:49,320
I want to hear from you.

1069
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:55,560
You can message me on Instagram at veganreportpodcast or leave a review.

1070
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:56,980
Make yourself known.

1071
01:22:56,980 --> 01:23:00,560
This is as much your podcast as it is mine.

1072
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:05,800
And when I know that you are enjoying this show, that you are getting something out of

1073
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:11,240
this, it just gives me the energy to keep going.

1074
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:12,920
Thank you so much for your support.

1075
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:20,000
I wish you a great summer or winter, I guess, if you're listening from the Southern hemisphere.

1076
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:23,760
And as always, thank you for caring.

1077
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:32,400
But I like to tell all every vegan that's listening or at home, you have to be a voice

1078
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:33,880
for the animals every single day.

1079
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:35,880
It's not enough just to be vegan.

1080
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:42,680
And I think a lot of us say, well, I'm vegan, so I'm saving X amount of number of animals.

1081
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:44,800
But that's all you're saving.

1082
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:45,800
You need to save more.

1083
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:49,640
And those are the kinds of people that are who are content to share recipes and talk

1084
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,840
about restaurant offerings and hey, that's all fine.

1085
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,040
But please make have to take the next step.

1086
01:23:56,040 --> 01:24:00,280
Because the animals, as Nicole said, desperately need us.

1087
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:06,840
And we feel that if you think back in our history, every great social justice movement

1088
01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:13,840
has started in the streets with protests, whether it's gender rights, sexual orientation,

1089
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:16,440
civil rights, obviously, right down the line.

1090
01:24:16,440 --> 01:24:18,040
So animal rights is no different.

1091
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:20,800
You have to voice your outrage.

1092
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:25,040
You have to let the average person know there's something wrong here.