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We're going to build the walls★

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Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!

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Build that wall!

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Build that wall! builds Gangplank

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Build that wall! x3

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Welcome to The Vegan Report.

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My name is Ryan and today we are talking about border walls, and more specifically the southern

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border wall separating the United States from Mexico.

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As the US election are approaching, it feels like the question of the southern border has

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become front and center of the political debate.

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We hear a lot of talks about immigrants and immigration policies, but what we never hear

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about are the animals.

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And does it affect their lives when, you know, you build a fence stretching hundreds of kilometers

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or miles across their habitats?

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To discuss this topic, I have with me Miles Trafigen.

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He is the Borderlands Program Coordinator for Wide Lens Network.

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He's a researcher, a conservationist, and overall someone who has taught a lot about

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the border from an environmental perspective.

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So Miles, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Yeah, thank you for having me.

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I'm glad that you're taking interest in such an important topic that I think is under the

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radar for a lot of people.

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So my first question for you is about, you know, how can we locate the border wall?

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So can you first describe the border wall in terms of where it is located?

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Are we talking about also, you know, a wall or more of a fence?

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How long is it with kind of, you know, environments and habitats and territories?

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Is it crossing?

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So I'll let you answer the question.

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Well, those are very good questions you're asking.

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The border wall is kind of a generic term that has been used to describe border barriers

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and infrastructure along the US-Mexico border, most of it being built in the last 15 years.

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I'll start with very basics.

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When they first started marking the border, it was just using concrete or steel obelisks,

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just markers that they would place along the border going from the Rio Grande River to

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the Pacific Ocean in California.

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And these were all in line of sight of each other.

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So there's 268 of these monuments.

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And theoretically, if you're standing at one, you should be able to look left or right and

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see if you're on the borderline.

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So that was sort of the first method of marking the borders, you know, a kinder, gentler way

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of doing things.

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And then we had barbed wire fence that came along when cattle arrived.

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And that was the main barrier in most places.

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But then beginning around the mid-2000s, they started building more stout barriers.

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And these range from vehicle barriers, which look like what they call Norman defencing,

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like the landing craft deterrent structure, as you saw on the beaches at Omaha Beach in

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France during World War II.

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And those are very recognizable.

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And these were repurposed from old railroad tracks.

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But then we entered the era of border walls.

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And this is where they built steel structures that range from 18 feet tall to 30 feet tall.

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So we're looking between, you know, five and nine meters.

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And the gaps between the beams, the steel beams that they are constructed of are only

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about 10 centimeters.

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And so that's not very much room for something to get through.

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During the Trump administration, they built over 600 kilometers, actually about 700 kilometers

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of border wall in the states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and to a lesser extent

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in Texas.

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There's some subtle differences between the states, specifically Texas, on how and where

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they can build border walls, depending on how the land is owned.

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But Arizona, New Mexico, and California, we really took a bad hit here when the Trump

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administration was around.

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And there were border walls built prior to that under the Bush administration and to

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a small number for the Obama administration.

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Now these border walls, like I said, they're the ones that they built after 2017, are 30

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feet tall.

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That's, you know, almost 10 meters tall.

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And this is a lethal distance for somebody to fall.

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And so, you know, border barriers have an effect upon humans and wildlife, a huge health

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effect.

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In the hospitals in San Diego, they're seeing more people injured by falling off the border

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wall than they do gunshot wounds.

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And in America, that is saying something because we get a lot of gunshot wounds here.

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And not to joke about such a grave topic, but it's very significant.

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But the impact that the border wall is having on wildlife is profound.

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And it's a difficult thing to measure because we don't really have good baseline data to

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go off.

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That's kind of a different scientific topic I can expand upon.

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But in essence, here you have this border barrier that is crossing the continent and

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in places where there happens to be very high biodiversity and a lot of natural migration

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corridors that have existed for thousands of years.

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So the way that the topography is laid out in the Western states, North America is the

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basin and range topography, where basically you have north-south trending mountain ranges

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interspersed with valleys between them.

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And so these narrow pinch points between the US and Mexico, what happens is it enables

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animals to migrate north or south according to changing conditions.

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And of course, these changing conditions have been going on for thousands of years, but

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they happen seasonally and more recently in the context of climate change, we're seeing

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a lot more animal dispersal in order to follow things like rainfall and if you're a predator,

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prey availability.

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So there's really no worse place that you could place a border wall and no worse design

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than to put one running east and west across this part of the continent because you are

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essentially fragmenting and altering the evolutionary history of North America.

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Can you bring us to that place?

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You talked about New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas.

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If I go there and I've never been to the southern border, what does it feel like?

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What's the weather like?

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What's the topography like?

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Because I imagine like a desert, like a barren lands, and you're talking about migration.

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So can you bring us to that place and talk about what you see when you travel there?

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Well, that's an excellent question, Ryan.

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I'm really glad that you asked that because I think the impression is that we live in

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a desert wasteland here and nothing could be further from the truth.

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And borderlands are an incredibly diverse place.

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They have elevations ranging from sea level up to 3,000 meters.

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And so you could be anywhere along this point of the 2,000 mile long border and you could

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find yourself in a variety of different habitats.

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This ranges from pine trees, conifer trees, junipers, and pinions, and grasslands, just

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like you would find up in Manitoba, Ontario.

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These are short grass prairie grasslands.

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So you get that element, but you also get some of the deserts.

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But contrary to popular belief, deserts are very high in biodiversity.

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And where we are here in the southwest is one of the most biodiverse places on the continent,

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especially when it comes to reptiles and amphibians and pollinators and native bees.

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There's a great degree of inhabitants.

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And what also makes it unique is that since this is the meeting ground of the temperate

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zones and the tropic zones, where you've got the temperate zones coming down from the north,

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the Rocky Mountains essentially reaching their southern terminus where they meet the Sierra

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Madre, which is the big mountain range on the spine of Mexico, that has the tropical

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element.

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And so it creates this melting pot, this meeting ground of great diversity of plants and animals.

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The most iconic representatives would be the black bear, which people associate with northern

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temperate zones.

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But then we also have the jaguar in the borderlands.

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We've had nine jaguars occur over the last 25 years here in Arizona and New Mexico.

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And this is the iconic apex predator of the tropics, ranging all the way down to Argentina.

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And so it reaches its northern extent up here.

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So I like to say that this is the land where the jaguar and the black bear share the same

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trail.

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Oh my gosh, that's incredible.

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This is the first time I'm hearing this.

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Is it because the fact that it is the first time I'm hearing this?

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Is it because, you know, are there a lot of documentaries out there about this zone?

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Lots of reports.

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You know, I don't remember, you know, watching anything about this zone, this part of the

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world.

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It's just my personal bias, but tell me.

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I don't think it's your personal bias.

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I think it's the media bias.

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There's always a recurring story that happens along the border and it comes along in the

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election seasons.

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And much like when you hear about it's hurricane season.

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And so in the southeastern US, places like Florida, they start talking about hurricanes

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in June and we can expect this to happen.

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This is essentially what happens before every big election.

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It becomes immigrant abuse season and it becomes, you know, basically a very, it's a very racist

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approach towards the border.

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You know, when you hear terms like invasion, when we're clearly not being invaded, there's

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people just simply walking across trying to find a better way of life.

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Yeah, this is, so the way the media portrays the border is very much as a desert space,

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as a place of desperation, of chaos.

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When the reality is that 99% of the borderlands, if you were just plopped down there like a

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transporter beam from Star Trek, you would probably be alone in the wilderness, in, you

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know, standing beneath an oak tree or maybe a pine tree if you're lucky to be enough higher

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or in grasslands or you might be in the saguaro cactus deserts, like you think of, people

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think of the Arizona desert.

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And so what happens is in some of these places that happen to be big population centers like

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Yuma, El Paso, these are in some of the desert places, it's an easy place for the media to

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access and to get their photo ops.

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And this happens frequently.

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Every few weeks there's a delegation of mostly Republicans from Republican Party here in

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the US from the border states of Nebraska, Illinois, Oklahoma, and I joke about that

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being border states because those are not border states, but everybody from around the

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country seems to have an interest in what's going on down here.

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And they come down to get their photo ops, you know, say that we're being invaded, that

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you know, whatever administration's in power is not doing enough about this.

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And so it's really become a political football.

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And the reality of the border is so misunderstood.

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You know, along with the diversity of habitats, vegetation communities, wildlife and plants,

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it's also an incredibly diverse place for human culture.

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It's an area of extreme mixing and blending where you find a lot of dynamic energy.

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And there's been a great food tradition that's come out of the borderlands.

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And you know, I would say a good majority of Americans take part in some sort of, you

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know, Mexican food at some point, probably almost weekly.

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It's become, you know, almost daily ingrained with, you know, burritos and tacos and enchiladas

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and you know, all these things, avocados, you know, all these things that North Americans

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have grown to love in recent years.

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And that's a result of, you know, humans occupying this space, this very dynamic space where,

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you know, you've got the American Anglo influence from the North with the Latin American influence

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from the South.

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And then the mixing ground of all these great food traditions, you know, from an ethnobotanical

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perspective, it's fascinating because, you know, Mexico is the land where chili peppers

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come from and tomatoes and avocados and some of the tastiest foods in the planet happen

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to come from this part of the world in Mesoamerica, the Aztec and Mayan traditions.

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So that's an element of the borderlands that is something that's very positive, you know,

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it's a place where, you know, a lot of people like to be and it's spurred a lot of innovation

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and experimentation with food and culture and just about every facet of our life here

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in the borderlands.

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And I just wish that that aspect of the border was cherished more and really viewed in a

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more positive light.

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LR I'm glad you brought up the topic of food.

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And yeah, we owe a lot of our legumes and recipes to Southern American culture, including,

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I think, potatoes, watermelons, even tomatoes are native from, you know, South America,

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if I'm not mistaken.

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But you said that, you know, the real border, the kind of border we're talking about right

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now, you know, it's started during the 2000 era.

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And before that, you know, there was a more gentle approach to, I guess, marking the border.

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What I want to know is the people who decided to build that wall, have they, you know, taught

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about wildlife?

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Was it even a footnote in the way, you know, they, they thought about, oh, now we're going

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to build the wall.

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It's going to impact this and that.

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Was there even a study around that before they built that wall?

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LR No, there wasn't.

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And there's a very specific reason for this.

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There was a law that was enacted in 2005 called the Real ID Act of 2005.

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And that sounds fairly benign.

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Okay, well, we're all supposed to carry identification.

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But there was a clause in that law that said that the Secretary of Homeland Security has

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the authority and power to waive all laws for the construction of border barriers.

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And this includes the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the

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Rivers and Protection Act, the Wilderness Act, Bald Eagle, Golden Eagle Protection.

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And the list goes on to about 70 different laws that they have the authority to waive.

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And so because of this, we were not able to do environmental studies to try to assess

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the impact of the border wall on wildlife, on water, on the ecosystem.

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So they essentially can just do what they want to do.

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And that's exactly what they did is they don't really have to notify anybody except to put

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it in the US Federal Register saying, we're going to build a border wall here and we are

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waiving all of these laws.

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And that is a very scary thing and it set a horrible precedent around the world because

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this is the erosion of democracy.

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How can an unelected politically appointed official, which is who the Secretary of Homeland

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Security is, how do they have the authority to waive laws that both houses of Congress

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have passed and whatever sitting president signed them into law and then it withstood

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decades of judicial review and challenges at the Supreme Court?

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How does that person have the power to do that?

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Unchecked power.

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This is something that people should be scared of because it's starting to proliferate around

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the world.

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There are now nearly 70 countries in the world that have border walls and they are following

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the same playbook where in Poland and Belarus, they built a border wall two years ago, a

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200 kilometer long border wall between Poland and Belarus right through the Białowice Unesco

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Biosphere Reserve.

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So there's bison there, there's wolves, brown bears, and they waived all the laws to construct

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that.

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In Slovenia, they're putting up border barriers and once again, they did the same thing saying

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that, oh, in order to put these up, we need to bypass all the laws.

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And unfortunately, that's something that I believe that the United States exported to

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a lot of places who are taking advantage of this autocratic power that really should not

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exist in a true functioning democracy.

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But why are we building those walls?

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Because when I think about a wall, I think about the Great China wall.

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It's something from the medieval era.

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It's something from the time of our ancestors and times of conflict and lords waging wars

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between themselves and things like that.

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So what's the function of that wall?

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What is it contributing to our society, to our countries?

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I think it's really taken a step backwards in our evolution.

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And this makes me think of the rock band Devo.

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It stands for devolution.

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And the members of the band thought that at some point in the late 60s, early 70s, we

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had reached a pinnacle of human evolution.

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But after the Kent State shootings, and I believe it was 71, they saw us devolving.

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And that's what I believe is happening with these border walls, is that we are trying

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to approach 21st century problems, socioeconomic and climate problems with a very medieval

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base solution.

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I mean, we are past the days of where there's a group down there with torches that say,

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now we storm the castle, and they're trying to clamor up the walls and they're pouring

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oil on them and everything.

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It's just, I don't think we're living in those days right now, at least right here.

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People are coming to this continent for a variety of reasons, but I'll tell you the

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common three that I have seen over the years as I've worked there and talked to people

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and helped transport them to airports and buses if they're seeking asylum.

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It's that one, they are fleeing climate change.

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And two, a lot of people in the Northern hemispheres, we are not seeing the climate change effects

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as acutely as they are in some parts of the world that are more prone to drought or disturbance

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or weather phenomenons.

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We're slightly more buffered here, except when you go further North and getting up into

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Alaska in the Northern latitudes, they're seeing that as well.

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But people are fleeing climate change because they have been in places where they've seen

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multiple hurricanes, they've seen droughts and wildfires.

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And then the second reason they're also fleeing is because of violence and persecution.

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And there's a lot of instability out there, global instability, but also inter-country

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instability in terms of a lot of gang violence and narco-cartel violence.

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A lot of these communities in the small villages, the mountain areas of Central America are being

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terrorized by very organized gangs, organized crimes.

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And then the other reason that they're also escaping is resource depletion to where it's

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becoming more difficult to grow your crops and make a good living with an unstable climate,

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with an unpredictable climate.

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But on top of that, they are also a victim of global macroeconomics.

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And coffee is a perfect example of this.

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There was a period where a lot of farmers in the coffee growing regions were doing pretty

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well.

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Well, now there's been a huge explosion of coffee over the last three decades, and it's

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essentially overplanted and also very subject to climatic fluctuations in its production.

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So here these people have to compete with a global commodity, just like oil, and they

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are essentially powerless.

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They take the price that they're getting.

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And so these people are victims of global trade agreements such as NAFTA, such as GATT.

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They've all been affected by this because these global trade agreements, they benefited

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the big corporations quite well, and especially agri-industry, meaning agricultural, industrial

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agriculture, with large companies such as Cargill, Archer, Daniels, Midland, these very

294
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Cone Agri.

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They own a significant portion of the agricultural market, and it's based upon a lot of commodities

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such as corn and wheat, beans, that now are traded on the global scale.

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But these people need these on a daily basis, and they have no power of controlling their

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own pricing.

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And so they get squeezed.

300
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And so what's happening as a result of this?

301
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It's thermodynamics, is we have energy that's moving from one place to another.

302
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:08,000
And if you could call money energy, then essentially they don't have very much.

303
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They don't have very many resources there, and so they're moving this direction.

304
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:20,480
So when you look at this, and we're putting up border walls, this is just the most absurd

305
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thing you can do.

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And it causes a very cynical reaction in me because I would like to think that people

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00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:36,520
in our governments are at least semi-intelligent and are thinking about problems and want to

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be problem solvers.

309
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And we are simply not solving any problems.

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There seems to be no effort to really provide solutions to these issues that are only going

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to be increasing every year.

312
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So we are starting to see climate change in action that's arriving at our southern doorstep.

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And the United States always frames it as we have a problem with the southern border.

314
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It's our problem.

315
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,060
It's like, no, don't put that on yourself.

316
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Claim this responsibility for it.

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This is a global crisis is what we're seeing.

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It is manifesting at the border because of borders being places where just things get

319
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:25,920
compressed, where we're seeing people from dozens of countries all around the world.

320
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I've counted 17 countries so far and people I've encountered over the last probably two

321
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,240
or three years.

322
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,080
So these people are not just coming to America for the healthcare.

323
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Definitely not.

324
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,160
But they're coming for very good reasons.

325
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:50,100
And that common thread of why they're coming, it's across the same for people I've met

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00:27:50,100 --> 00:28:00,800
from Syria, from people I've met from Ukraine, from Ethiopia, Sudan, Mali, Burkina Faso.

327
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I mean, it's just incredible that the people I encounter and the places that they come

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from and that's never appreciated in the media.

329
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:19,400
And the media and the government is not doing a good job of being analytical and introspective

330
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,280
on why are the people coming here.

331
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:33,400
Why is never a question that you'll hear in any stories about the border.

332
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:40,040
I think you, I never heard such a good explanation of why is it a problem right now?

333
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:47,000
Why are we hearing so much noise about it in the media?

334
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:54,040
I want to get back to the wildlife aspect of it because I feel like, first of all, I

335
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,820
feel like it's such a great story to tell.

336
00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:02,700
The impact of the border wall on wildlife.

337
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:06,720
Why are we not having more conversations around that?

338
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:15,480
Why aren't reporters and journalists interested in the fate of wildlife species around the

339
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,480
border?

340
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:23,640
It's not that there are none that are not covering this.

341
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:30,600
There was a documentary that was produced about three years ago called American Scar.

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00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,960
And so I was part of that production.

343
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,520
And in fact, we were just in Mexico City for a screening a couple of weeks ago for that.

344
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So it's still having an impact.

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That discusses wildlife.

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00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:50,160
But there's a couple other documentaries that I just finished shooting recently that will

347
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,240
be coming out this summer.

348
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:59,180
And these will specifically be focused on wildlife and such as nature divided or border

349
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:03,360
wildlife effects.

350
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:12,540
Back in 2021, we did a story map and story maps of these GIS products that it's basically

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like kind of a scrolling story with multimedia in it.

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And I actually see this a lot of websites now for news as they're starting to use the

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story format.

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I think it's a pretty good medium.

355
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:28,760
But we did one on where the border wall was built and it has interactive maps in it.

356
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:34,840
And I'll send you a link to that so that people can find that in the comment section.

357
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:41,600
But that lays out the structure of the border and what it's affecting.

358
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:48,760
And what it's really affecting are the large mammals.

359
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:58,040
And I had mentioned the jaguar, which is a very charismatic species from the tropics.

360
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It's the third largest cat in the world, spotted cats.

361
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:09,080
But the ones that I'm really concerned about are the common everyday animals that you see.

362
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Like if you and I did a trip down to the border today, we would definitely see deer, probably

363
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,640
two species, white-tailed deer, mule deer.

364
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,240
And then there's also the javelina, which is like a wild pig native to this area.

365
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,440
That's like a new world pig.

366
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They're very common.

367
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:32,160
There's an animal called coadamundi, which is kind of like a ring-tailed cat raccoon.

368
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That's another tropical species.

369
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And there's a pronghorn antelope, which range all the way up into your area, into Canada.

370
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And there's black bear, mountain lion, bobcats, and desert bighorn sheep.

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All of these animals are very affected by the border wall because in a place that's

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dry and even though it may not be desert in a lot of the borderlands, it's still a very

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00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:08,400
arid place where rainfall is very infrequent in space and time, meaning that you may have

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00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:16,760
a year where not much rain falls or you may have all of it falling in one day or in one

375
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,980
place and not another.

376
00:32:18,980 --> 00:32:26,720
So these animals have adapted over thousands of years to find these water sources, find

377
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:33,200
these food sources, find the places for shelter when different seasons come around.

378
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:40,560
Now they have this barrier that's running hundreds of miles across the land.

379
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,080
And what do they do when they encounter this if they needed to get to their water source

380
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,240
that's maybe one kilometer north or south of where they are?

381
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:56,080
Now they have to walk potentially 100 kilometers to the end of this wall or find a gap in it

382
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,880
and get through.

383
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:04,960
So I think that the border wall is probably killing a lot of animals that we're not even

384
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:12,320
seeing that we're not even aware of because animals are out of sight, out of mind.

385
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,240
They don't call up on a cell phone and say, hey, I'm lost out here.

386
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,240
I'm hungry.

387
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,120
Can you help?

388
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,160
Which is the case with humans.

389
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:29,880
We know that in the Arizona area just over the last 10, 15 years, there's been documented

390
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,640
five, 6,000 people who've died in the desert here.

391
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:41,240
Organizations such as No More Deaths documents these and finds these locations and has created

392
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,600
maps for those and has put little memorials out there and also tried to identify the remains

393
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,960
using forensics and DNA.

394
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:57,800
So if this is happening for humans, if we're seeing five, 6,000 humans that we know of

395
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:05,140
perishing dry horrible deaths of starvation and suffering, I'm sure that the same is true

396
00:34:05,140 --> 00:34:06,900
for animals.

397
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:14,520
But we just don't see that because an animal may walk off into the bushes and pass away

398
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,040
and then its remains are scavenged by something.

399
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,360
And so we don't see that.

400
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:26,840
And so I'm very concerned about all the common everyday animals that we have not had the

401
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:34,000
opportunity to monitor because of the nature of the way border barriers are built.

402
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,400
And this goes back to what I mentioned earlier with the Real ID Act of 2005, where since

403
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,360
they were able to waive all these laws, they just build the barriers.

404
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:49,120
Now any other giant public works project like a dam or a freeway, it would go through environmental

405
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,120
reviews.

406
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,120
There would be biological opinions.

407
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,160
There would be public comment periods.

408
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:59,060
There would be alternatives presented to minimize impacts and expense.

409
00:34:59,060 --> 00:35:01,660
But that's not the case with border walls.

410
00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:09,360
And so we were not able to put in any baseline studies to see like, okay, we know how many

411
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,720
animals, how many deer are in this area.

412
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:13,880
We know how many mountain lions are here.

413
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,620
Now what's going to happen if we build a border barrier?

414
00:35:16,620 --> 00:35:22,400
What happens to their home ranges, their distributions, their habitats?

415
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,040
There's just so much that we don't know.

416
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:32,120
And that's what makes it really difficult is when you know in some places that wildlife

417
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,480
are having a hard time.

418
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,280
And we have trail cameras and videos.

419
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,840
We're monitoring this in numerous locations along the border with long-term research projects

420
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,440
that we've set up recently.

421
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,040
But that's going to take a long time to get those results.

422
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:59,000
And I think that even with scientific data, the data are, they turn into numbers at some

423
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,120
point.

424
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:08,800
And what happens is you lose the fact that there's a real animal with a beating heart

425
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:15,560
and hopes and desires, I'm sure.

426
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,560
What's happening out there?

427
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:24,640
And if we see that, oh, wildlife numbers have declined in the context of border walls, what

428
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,000
does that mean, decline?

429
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:32,400
That means probably big die-offs of animals along the borderlands.

430
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:39,000
And we simply don't know how that's going to affect the ecosystem at large if that happens.

431
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:45,840
And like you said, with a horrifying death, having this border and you know there is water

432
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:52,240
just across it and you just can't reach it and you have to go through the desert and

433
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:53,600
the hot weather.

434
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,780
So you talked about mammals.

435
00:36:55,780 --> 00:36:57,580
What about reptiles?

436
00:36:57,580 --> 00:36:59,860
What about insects?

437
00:36:59,860 --> 00:37:06,840
Is it also affecting, you know, is it affecting every species out there or is it limited to

438
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,360
certain categories of animals?

439
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,380
I think it's probably having an effect on almost everything.

440
00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:17,840
It's obvious that some things can pass through the border wall.

441
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:24,720
I've seen several snakes, rattlesnakes and other ones crawling through the border fence.

442
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,160
So they're not having an issue, but desert tortoises can't make it through there because

443
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,920
you know, that's a hard shell.

444
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:39,080
The border wall is only four inches slash 10 centimeters wide.

445
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,480
And so two years ago I had an encounter where we encountered a pretty large female desert

446
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:52,160
tortoise and she was right on the border road next to the border wall and happened to be

447
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:58,960
with the documentary film crew and so that will be in this documentary, The Border Wildlife.

448
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,960
But you see the plight that this animal is in.

449
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:11,280
It's had this barrier placed across a place where it's lived for decades.

450
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,800
Desert tortoises can live to 60, 80 years old.

451
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:25,520
And so they form their lives around these known locations of food, shelter, water.

452
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,020
So they are being affected, the desert tortoises are.

453
00:38:30,020 --> 00:38:36,000
And also there's a lot of birds and butterflies that are impacted by this because even though

454
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,560
they fly, many of them don't fly that high.

455
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,720
They may fly three, four meters maximum.

456
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,760
And I've observed this along the border wall.

457
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:54,120
I've seen butterflies, big giant flocks of butterflies come up to the wall and not pass

458
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,280
through.

459
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,480
And I think it might be something to do with the temperature of the wall during the daytime

460
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:06,360
it heats up or it could just be that there's a disruption of airflow.

461
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,120
You know, I don't know.

462
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:17,240
But unfortunately they have installed high intensity lighting in many places along the

463
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:18,240
border.

464
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:19,960
This is like stadium lighting.

465
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,600
And so in most places they have not turned this on yet.

466
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:30,800
And we're very concerned about this because that could have a huge impact upon bird and

467
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,240
bat migration.

468
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:42,600
You know, these animals they use visual navigation, they use sonar navigation.

469
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,880
So the presence of high intensity lighting could really disrupt that.

470
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:54,600
It's also could have a huge impact upon native insects and pollinators.

471
00:39:54,600 --> 00:40:00,280
In the San Bernardino Valley of southeastern Arizona, there was a paper published about

472
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:06,720
three years ago that identified there were 500 species of native bees that occurred in

473
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:12,680
this one area, the highest of all North America, the highest diversity.

474
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,140
These are a lot of solitary bees.

475
00:40:15,140 --> 00:40:20,280
So there are these ground dwelling bees that just live by themselves.

476
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,200
And a lot of people don't think about this.

477
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,320
When we think about bees, everybody thinks there's one bee, you know, but it turns out

478
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,040
there's thousands of bees, you know.

479
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,400
And the Western North America has a lot.

480
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:37,880
And so if you turn on high intensity lighting, the effect that's going to have on the insect

481
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:44,000
fauna, and then the avian fauna and the bats is going to be tremendous.

482
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:52,280
And so we're putting out all of these structures and technology and border militarization type

483
00:40:52,280 --> 00:41:00,000
of tools without really doing the work to determine what kind of impact are they going

484
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,560
to have.

485
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,100
So things will be impacted all across the border and including plants.

486
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:13,760
We're seeing a huge influx of non-native invasive plant species occur along the border because

487
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:23,760
you had this road hundreds of miles long that has been disturbed and all of that heavy equipment,

488
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:29,320
you know, giant pieces of caterpillar construction gear and trucks and thousands of people from

489
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:35,860
all around the whole country spreading all these seeds.

490
00:41:35,860 --> 00:41:41,380
And so we're seeing weird plants pop up now, you know, invasives that we have not seen

491
00:41:41,380 --> 00:41:47,600
in other places, you know, range expansions of invasive species we've seen in Arizona,

492
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,120
but we had not seen them in New Mexico yet.

493
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,400
They hadn't made it there, but now they're making their way there.

494
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:59,080
So anytime you get a change in the plant community, that's going to have a ripple effect because

495
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:08,000
a lot of plants, all plants have some sort of mutualisms or symbiotic relationships or

496
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:14,440
something that is going to some species is going to rely upon that plant for its sustenance

497
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,460
and wellbeing and pollination.

498
00:42:17,460 --> 00:42:24,800
So you know, it remains to be seen what's going to be the final outcome here, but there's

499
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:30,080
out of doubt we are seeing tremendous effects across the ecosystem now due to the border

500
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,080
wall.

501
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:36,920
LR You mentioned, well, we talked about water sources and you mentioned rivers.

502
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,520
What about aquatic life then?

503
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,520
CB Oh, aquatic life is definitely impacted.

504
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,840
Where I first started my career in the Southwest was at San Bernardino National Wildlife Refuge.

505
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,880
And that's near the Arizona New Mexico state line.

506
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,120
And it's right on the international border, the refuge is.

507
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,960
And that refuge was established for native fish.

508
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,640
That is the headwaters of the Rio Yaqui River basin.

509
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:08,400
And so there's eight species of endemic fish to that small refuge.

510
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,400
We're talking a place of only about 1000 hectares, harbored eight different species of native

511
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,400
fish.

512
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,160
The Yaqui top minnow, the Yaqui chub, the beautiful shiner, or the Mexican stone roller,

513
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:26,480
and then the only catfish native to the Western North America, the Yaqui catfish.

514
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,760
Those were impacted tremendously by border wall construction.

515
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:36,720
Because it turns out that some of the portions of the streams where a lot of the population

516
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:42,720
lived was right on the border, right where it crossed, where the deepest ponds.

517
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:49,600
There was tremendous amount of material that was discharged into these streams, making

518
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,040
the water quality terrible.

519
00:43:52,040 --> 00:44:00,360
In addition, they pumped billions of gallons of groundwater to mix the concrete to build

520
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:01,560
the border wall.

521
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,640
And so there are places where they drilled wells and pumped the water and all the surrounding

522
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:13,000
wells went dry, and including the natural artesian wells that flow naturally at the

523
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,880
San Bernardino refuge, those went dry.

524
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:22,560
And they had to, in an emergency, install solar powered submersible pumps that are still

525
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:28,120
there to this day to keep the water flow to these ponds where the native fish are.

526
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:33,920
So ironically, this was all occurring during COVID, most of the construction.

527
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:39,320
And right at that point, the refuge went on a ventilator when they had to install all

528
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:45,760
of these solar powered pumps and the water has still not returned to its natural flow.

529
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,040
So the aquatic resources has been tremendously affected.

530
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:55,840
And other places where rivers cross the border, like the San Pedro River, like the Santa Cruz

531
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:02,560
River, which are small rivers by Eastern standards, but the major drainage is here, those have

532
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,640
been walled off and they put fences across them.

533
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,560
And these have blown out with floods every year since they built the border wall.

534
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,480
And so it's so naive to think that you can just stop a river.

535
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,260
It just doesn't work that way with nature.

536
00:45:20,260 --> 00:45:21,320
Nature will win.

537
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,520
And every time one of these walls gets knocked over by the latest big flash flood that comes

538
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:33,560
through this area, it's just sort of a ray of hope that eventually nature will reclaim

539
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,360
what is hers.

540
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,040
But I wish we could do it a little bit quicker.

541
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:47,120
Let's run some scenarios and tell me how pertinent it is to what we're talking about.

542
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:59,200
What about if there are storms or changes in the weather in terms of seasons?

543
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:09,360
How does having this big wall impact wildlife in this context?

544
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,640
A lot of migration routes are learned.

545
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:19,760
But everything is this magic instinct in wildlife ecology.

546
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:26,200
It's well known that birds such as whooping cranes, sandhill cranes, they learn their

547
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,080
migration routes from their elders.

548
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:39,680
And even in Europe, in places between the former Iron Curtain, the Eastern Bloc countries,

549
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:45,720
the Russians built a fence, the longest fence at that time in the world.

550
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:51,840
I think it's nearly 2,000 kilometers long, not as high as the one here.

551
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,280
It was more of a fence with a lot of razor wire on it.

552
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:05,680
But when that was removed, they started removing this in the 90s, 2000s, the 90s in a lot of

553
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:06,680
these places.

554
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,920
They took the walls down, wrapped up all the barbed wire, got rid of it.

555
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,600
Interesting thing was observed.

556
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,920
Collared animals, meaning ones that had GPS satellite collars for research.

557
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:27,040
And these were bears and wolves and lynx and other large caribou.

558
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,280
They followed the same routes of the walls.

559
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,360
And they were not migrating across these.

560
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:41,160
Even though no physical barrier existed anymore, these animals had gone through several generations

561
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,660
of learning this is the route to go.

562
00:47:44,660 --> 00:47:51,000
And they continue to follow these routes even though the border barrier has been removed.

563
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:57,160
And right there, that tells me something that we've got a data point that demonstrates an

564
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:03,000
impact, a decades long effect from this border barrier.

565
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,640
This is an effect that we are now able to observe because the wall is gone and we've

566
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:17,440
got research technology, things that we can measure things very accurately, animal movements.

567
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:24,080
So there's definitely things that we are not seeing here on the US Mexico border because

568
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:32,060
we don't have the time, meaning the time to observe these effects.

569
00:48:32,060 --> 00:48:37,520
We don't have a good handle on who's being affected by this.

570
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:49,120
So migration routes and animal movements will undoubtedly be affected in ways that we have

571
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:58,000
not been able to predict because of those movement corridors that might be changing

572
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,880
and different at different times of the year.

573
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:09,120
Maybe in December, an ocelot or a javelina goes this area.

574
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:14,160
In August, they go this route.

575
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:22,240
So measuring the complexity of animal movements along any region is complex, but even more

576
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:29,800
so in places like the Southwest and the borderlands where rainfall is infrequent.

577
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,600
And like I said, it's really patchy in space and time.

578
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:41,760
And so the movements and migrations of animals are a little bit more sporadic and random

579
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:47,240
versus a classic case like the Serengeti where the wildebeest make that migration.

580
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:49,280
They all go through that one space.

581
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,360
The Nile crocodiles are waiting for them.

582
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,260
We don't have that type of migration routes here.

583
00:49:56,260 --> 00:50:00,240
They're more dispersed, they're more invisible.

584
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:06,520
So this is an uncontrolled experiment is what this is.

585
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,620
We're going to see things happen that we've probably never seen before.

586
00:50:11,620 --> 00:50:15,800
Second scenario, I mentioned storms.

587
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,540
I guess there will be pollutants.

588
00:50:20,540 --> 00:50:26,420
You talked about the concrete in the water, but this wall will get damaged.

589
00:50:26,420 --> 00:50:28,400
What will be the effect of those pollutants?

590
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,480
And then what about the increased human presence?

591
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:39,280
The people that will be dispatched to again and again repair that wall, repair the holes

592
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,520
in the wall and do maintenance on the wall.

593
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:44,520
Oh yeah.

594
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,800
As we speak, there are probably hundreds of people working on the wall right now doing

595
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:49,800
maintenance.

596
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:56,120
And in some places it has fallen down or at risk of being fallen down.

597
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:01,920
There's a lot of what they call head cutting, which is a process of erosion or streams cut

598
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,240
back into their banks.

599
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:08,120
And you see this in places where there's a lot of gullies.

600
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,640
And a gully is just a steep sided eroded piece of land.

601
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:20,240
The Grand Canyon and those places that people know of in the Southwestern United States,

602
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:23,240
that's an extreme example of gullying of an erosion.

603
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:27,080
Basically the Grand Canyon is one big gully that keeps on cutting back into itself.

604
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,760
Well, that's essentially been happening in many places on the border.

605
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:36,400
And so when you get soil erosion, ultimately that soil goes into streams and that affects

606
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,320
the water quality.

607
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,920
And then when the soil erodes, well, nobody wants to lose soil.

608
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:50,680
That's the foundation of basically most life on earth combined with water and sunlight.

609
00:51:50,680 --> 00:52:00,440
Yeah, we are seeing a lot of damage to the land and continual maintenance of the border

610
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:01,800
that's required.

611
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,040
And with that comes, like you said, increased human presence.

612
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,400
There's a lot of traffic, a lot of truck traffic, heavy equipment.

613
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,840
Of course, animals get hit on the road.

614
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,120
I find roadkill constantly.

615
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:18,840
And then there's the increased border patrol presence.

616
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:29,240
And now you've got vehicles occupying an area basically 24-7 and driving these roads.

617
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:33,240
And the effect of them on animals is quite significant.

618
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:37,800
In fact, for my master's research, I studied the white-sided jackrabbit, which is a rare

619
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:44,440
species of hare that lives in the southwest corner of the state of New Mexico and in Chihuahua.

620
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:49,720
And this hare is nocturnal, comes out about 10 o'clock at night, goes back in before the

621
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:50,720
sun comes up.

622
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:53,200
I guess it was called the vampire hare.

623
00:52:53,200 --> 00:53:02,600
But at that time of night, they haven't been subject to very much roadkill because of the

624
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,120
rural area that they live in.

625
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:12,440
However, now with the increase of patrol roads on the border and border walls, now you have

626
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:19,120
border patrol trucks driving around all night long in a habitat space and time that there

627
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,160
didn't used to be that.

628
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:28,880
And so I documented the decline of the white-sided jackrabbit, about 50%, part of which is due

629
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,600
to habitat change, due to climate variables.

630
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:39,240
However, there were locations, the signal came out pretty strong that there's a roadkill

631
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:40,720
effect here.

632
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:47,400
And very early on in the study, I began documenting what vehicles I was seeing.

633
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,080
Was this border patrol vehicle or non-border patrol?

634
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,500
And it was 99% border patrol vehicle.

635
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:59,880
So there's a measurable impact that border security and border militarization has had

636
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,520
upon animals.

637
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:08,440
Last scenario, you talked about that, the turtle.

638
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,440
Oh, the tortoise.

639
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:11,440
Yeah.

640
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:12,440
Yeah.

641
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:13,440
Sorry.

642
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:18,920
You know, sometimes I just lose my English abilities and my mastery of English.

643
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:26,200
Anyway, you found that big, beautiful creature and you did nothing.

644
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,080
You know, you helped her.

645
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:35,160
I guess you documented her presence, which is the right thing to do because now I'm imagining,

646
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:44,040
you know, all those people who are now present around the border wall area, if they had encountered

647
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:51,000
like a rare animal or something like that, like the creature you described, I feel like

648
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,000
they would have just picked up the creature and brought it home or something like that.

649
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:03,000
So last scenario, what is the impact of the border wall on wildlife trafficking?

650
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:07,520
One thing it does is it brings more people to an area.

651
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:15,920
And this is the classic case with logging and mining, you know, oil production roads

652
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:21,960
is that you have roadless areas and now they build a road in order to go in to extract

653
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,200
the materials or whatever they're going to do there.

654
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:31,520
And for the first time, you have a traffic highway that people can go into and out of

655
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:32,520
quickly.

656
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:33,520
They have mobility there.

657
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,120
They have the advantage of fossil fuel vehicles.

658
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:43,400
And so now you're bringing in a population of humans to a place that they didn't exist

659
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:48,040
or they were in very small numbers and only on foot.

660
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:56,320
And so the ironic effect of the border wall is that now there is increased migration in

661
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:01,240
places that were formerly wilderness areas because the United States government went

662
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:06,200
and created the infrastructure and mobility to get in and out of those areas.

663
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:11,960
So now it's become even easier for the drug cartels, which have largely switched to human

664
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:19,560
trafficking in the last two years because it's more profitable and less risky.

665
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,120
Now they have routes to take people through.

666
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:28,520
They can take them through the wilderness areas to the south of the border in Mexico.

667
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:34,360
And then they get to the border wall and they put a 31 foot ladder on top of the 30 foot

668
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,720
border wall and the people go to the other side.

669
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:44,360
And now they've got a highway that they can utilize.

670
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,920
And so this is the same for drug smuggling, all of this thing, although the majority of

671
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,680
drugs are coming through the port of entry.

672
00:56:52,680 --> 00:57:03,800
So there's a snowball effect that's occurring is that the more you add onto the infrastructure,

673
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:10,560
the more you actually increase the presence of humans and you create better conditions

674
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,680
and habitat for them to exploit.

675
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:18,840
And ultimately, the wildlife is going to suffer.

676
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,000
And noise pollution is a big part of that too.

677
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:23,880
That can't be overlooked.

678
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:30,160
I would say that in a lot of places where I see a lot of heavy human traffic, I'm not

679
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,680
seeing very many animals.

680
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,520
And that's kind of an obvious effect.

681
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,120
They're kind of scared away.

682
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:42,300
This was observed all around the planet during COVID is that there was an influx of wildlife

683
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:44,040
into urban areas.

684
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:51,040
A lot of urban parks in India saw large increases of leopards and even elephants coming in at

685
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:57,200
night in spaces because the quarantine had taken effect and the humans went back into

686
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:06,440
their boxes and all the urban areas that still had trees and landscapes got recolonized quickly

687
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:07,720
by the animals.

688
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:09,560
So that's another data point.

689
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:15,120
If they can be recolonized that quickly, then they can be depopulated that quickly as well.

690
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,160
LR That's crazy, Miles.

691
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,720
I'm astonished.

692
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:29,880
I did not realize before this conversation how large, how the problem was that complex

693
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,760
and that large scale.

694
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:40,380
So you're working day and night researching, documenting what's happening.

695
00:58:40,380 --> 00:58:43,920
First of all, is it safe, the work you're doing?

696
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:50,880
Because I guess you're bothering a lot of people and agendas and you talked about those

697
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:55,760
gangs trafficking people.

698
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:00,640
Hopefully you never had to encounter some of those violent criminals.

699
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:04,160
So this is my first question.

700
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:10,760
How is it being in the forefront of talking about this issue and doing something about

701
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:11,760
it?

702
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:19,120
So during border wall construction when it was active between 2017 and 2021, I was monitoring

703
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:20,960
the actual activities.

704
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:26,320
And so I would go to these construction zones and I would fly my drone, I would take photographs.

705
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:34,300
They had security teams, heavily armed, just like you'd expect in America.

706
00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:37,840
These firms out of Texas and they come around like, what are you doing here?

707
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,280
And this is a place where I've worked for over 20 years.

708
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,440
And my question would be like, what are you doing here?

709
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,400
So I encountered a lot of hostility during that period.

710
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:56,880
I've had encounters with cartel and those aspects over the years.

711
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:05,640
Nothing terrible, nothing horribly violent, but there's an element of risk.

712
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:12,160
I would say that the borderlands are safe, no more dangerous than other places, but you

713
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:18,160
can't overlook the fact that anytime you are at a border area anywhere, there's going to

714
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:24,240
be a heightened sense of awareness.

715
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:28,840
They talk about things like conditions, like condition green, everything's cool.

716
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,160
It's a Sunday afternoon, you're not working, you're in the park, you're having some wine

717
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:37,680
in a baguette and some brie or something like that, then you have condition yellow and red

718
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,680
and then black and it's that gradient.

719
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:45,560
And so when I'm working in the borderlands, I would say that I'm definitely on like a

720
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:51,640
condition yellow, a very relaxed one, but just you have to keep track of your surroundings

721
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:57,340
and be aware of where you are and know the terrain.

722
01:00:57,340 --> 01:01:04,760
It's funny because people don't often know what is dangerous and what isn't.

723
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,720
And this is kind of a classic case if you travel somewhere in the world and if you just

724
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,120
went into some big city, ignorance is bliss.

725
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,160
Sometimes you might be in a very dangerous place, but you don't know it because you were

726
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,480
never told that it was a dangerous place.

727
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:25,040
And so I think that there are some places on the border that are more dangerous than

728
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,560
people perceive and other ones that are less dangerous.

729
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:35,280
But it's like anywhere and it definitely has its degree of risk involved.

730
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:42,720
And what can we do to support your work to do something about this issue?

731
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:51,560
I think that learning about border walls and how and why they're being constructed is just

732
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:56,360
the first step of awareness is to realize that what they can waive these laws.

733
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:57,600
And this runs so deep.

734
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:05,560
I was with a congressman one time down at the border and she said, well, why don't we just

735
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,320
use the Endangered Species Act to stop this?

736
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,800
And I just said, whoa, wait a minute, you were a member of Congress and you weren't

737
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:16,320
aware of the law that you passed here?

738
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,180
They were part of that voting block and they weren't even aware of it.

739
01:02:21,180 --> 01:02:30,280
So just educating oneself, but keep track of the organizations such as Wildlands Network,

740
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:31,400
Sky Island Alliance.

741
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:33,600
We do work along the border here.

742
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:37,640
No More Deaths, the Samaritans.

743
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:44,960
There's a lot of groups that do human and animal aid along the border.

744
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:51,120
And so keep track of what's going on with those projects.

745
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,760
We have a combined study with Sky Island Alliance.

746
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,600
We have a border wildlife study.

747
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,760
We've got hundreds of cameras along the border.

748
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,040
We're trying to track movements of animals.

749
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,040
Donations are always, of course, extremely helpful.

750
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:11,560
Trail cameras cost around 200 to $250, but that's what I like to say, that's the entry

751
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:12,560
points there.

752
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:17,040
Because once you do that, then it's the maintenance of going there to take the SD card out of

753
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:18,040
it.

754
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:22,680
And then you got to put the SD card in the computer and look at 5,000 pictures of whatever

755
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,360
and catalog all that.

756
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:31,400
And so one camera really costs $1,000 a year because of just all the work that goes into

757
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,480
it.

758
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:41,240
So I often donate to a lot of small organizations, $50 or something, just because I know that

759
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,560
they've got to buy batteries for this camera or something like that.

760
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:46,440
So that's helpful.

761
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,360
And also the political process.

762
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,340
This is all about politics.

763
01:03:52,340 --> 01:03:56,600
And so for people who say, I don't like to get involved with politics, well, at some

764
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:04,800
point you better get involved because the levers and machines of bad politics have hit

765
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:09,360
the borderlands ground zero, like a ton of bricks.

766
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:14,800
And we've seen so much damage and destruction along the border.

767
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,080
And I don't want to see any more suffering continue.

768
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,160
There's got to be a better way of doing this.

769
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:28,760
Before we end this recording quickly, I heard about projects of building another wall, but

770
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:34,080
this time on the northern border with Canada.

771
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:38,300
Does it have any, is it realistic?

772
01:04:38,300 --> 01:04:44,880
Is it just rumors of something or are people really considering doing that?

773
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:48,440
I have not heard any real consideration of that.

774
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:57,520
However, I would like to, and I don't mean this in a mean way.

775
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,600
Let's get down to the root of why the southern border gets picked on.

776
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,200
It's racism.

777
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:09,480
It's what I call the fear of the little brown people is essentially what's happening in

778
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:13,000
America.

779
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:20,600
And the perception, like when we started out this interview, that it's a desert wasteland,

780
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:25,200
what's there to conserve, there must be no wildlife there.

781
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,000
The northern border is entirely different.

782
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,320
It's demographic makeup.

783
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:37,760
If you said the secretary of Homeland security has determined that in order to secure the

784
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:42,760
border, we are building a border wall across Niagara Falls.

785
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:47,640
So we're going to be dynamite blasting this here to build the border wall.

786
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:51,720
People in that area would say, no, you can't do that.

787
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,800
It's just like, oh, no, yes, we can.

788
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:54,800
Really?

789
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:55,800
Yeah.

790
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:57,760
The Real ID Act of 2005 does that.

791
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:02,280
If they wanted to drain the boundary waters of all of its water and divert that and build

792
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,040
a wall through that, they could.

793
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:11,280
If they wanted to blast through the mountains of Glacier National Park, Waterton Peace Park

794
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:18,280
that straddles the border in Western Canada and the state of Montana, they can do that.

795
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,640
They can build a border wall through there.

796
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:27,680
I guarantee you that the constituency of those places of towns like Buffalo, towns like Niagara,

797
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:36,720
Vermont, and Quebec, if they were going to be blowing up the mountains to build a border

798
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:43,400
wall through national parks and reserves and provincial parks, I think people would just

799
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,520
go crazy.

800
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:53,280
Because there's more population there, there's also a better political constituency, meaning

801
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:59,400
that they're engaged more with their politicians where here in the borderlands, the politicians

802
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,160
have left the people behind.

803
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,000
There's not a lot of people living in these rural places on the border, and the people

804
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:11,960
that are there are poor, many of them undocumented, so they don't have a voice.

805
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,800
The people in the borderlands are almost like the animals.

806
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:19,960
They have a very diminished voice.

807
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:28,120
People on the US-Canadian border have a much larger voice, Vancouver, Seattle, those places.

808
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:34,520
If they started talking about a border wall there, I would be happy because it would expose

809
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,680
this horrible law that we have in the books.

810
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:41,760
Maybe people might want to reconsider and say, I didn't know that we could do that,

811
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:47,600
so let's look at this and maybe tweak this and get rid of that one.

812
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:52,240
But I'll keep you informed if I hear about anything happening at the border there.

813
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:58,400
If we do nothing, what happens to the southern region?

814
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,160
If we do nothing.

815
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:11,040
Well people are coming here, they're going to come to the United States, Canada, no matter

816
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,040
what, whether there's a border wall.

817
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:19,120
When I encounter these piles of trash that are often blamed on the immigrants, but the

818
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,560
reality is that when the border patrol gets them, they make them empty out all of their

819
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,480
backpacks and pockets.

820
01:08:24,480 --> 01:08:27,240
I see plane tickets from Ethiopia.

821
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:35,040
I see plane ticket stubs from Sudan, and then buses all along the way through South America

822
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,320
and Mexico.

823
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:41,240
Do you really think that a family that's coming from halfway around the world is going to

824
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:46,960
arrive and then they get to this nine meter border wall, which is very significant and

825
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:50,880
imposing and just go, oh man, I didn't realize there was a wall here.

826
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,880
I guess we're going back.

827
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,920
It's just stupid to think that it's going to be that way.

828
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:08,840
So let's solve one of the problems of our time and facilitate and manage migration because

829
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:15,640
migration has been occurring since the first bowl of primordial soup was served.

830
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:22,120
It's happened everywhere with every species from bacteria to bats, and it's going to happen

831
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:24,200
forever.

832
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,040
It's just the nature of life is to migrate.

833
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,800
So unless we start learning how to deal with that, we're only going to be throwing these

834
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:39,400
destructive measures up on our borders and dividing everyone as opposed to, let's invite

835
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:42,720
everyone to the table and solve the problem together.

836
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:48,480
Miles, this has been such a pleasant and educated conversation.

837
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:54,920
People will find links to how to donate and also to the map you talked about in the description

838
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:55,920
below.

839
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:57,960
Thank you so much.

840
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:59,340
Thank you for your work.

841
01:09:59,340 --> 01:10:02,200
Thank you for everything you're doing.

842
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,400
And thank you for having taken the time to answer my questions.

843
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:06,400
Merci beaucoup.

844
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,040
I appreciate it.

845
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,880
Thank you everyone for listening.

846
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:16,240
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

847
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:19,280
Let's encourage more people to take action.

848
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:29,960
Again, thank you so much for caring, and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.