Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.
There is one thing that Big Ag absolutely does not want us to talk about and that is
slaughterhouses.
So let's talk about it in depth for this entire episode.
Let's talk about why they are hidden, the harm they cause not just to animals but also
human societies and the environment.
And most importantly let's talk about how to close them down for good.
To discuss this topic I have with me Dr. Amy Fitzgerald, a professor and researcher at
the University of Windsor.
She has written multiple books such as Animal Advocacy and Environmentalism Understanding
and Bridging the Divide, Animals as Food Reconnecting Production, Processing, Consumption and Impacts,
Animal Abuse and Family Violence, Researching the Interrelationships of Abusive Power and
A Social History of the Slaughterhouse from Inception to Contemporary Implications, which
is not a book but the article that inspired me to reach out to Dr. Fitzgerald, a must
read you can access by following the link in the description below.
Thank you Amy for having accepted my invitation and for being here.
It's my pleasure.
I want to first get to why slaughterhouses are such unique institutions.
And let me start by this.
You quote in your paper, V.I.S.
I think his name is, who writes, whereas the slaughter of a few animals may be a festive
occasion, slaughter on a larger scale is different, it is disturbing.
Therefore means must be found of putting it out of mind.
Why do we differentiate the slaughter of a few animals versus the slaughter on a large
scale?
I mean psychologically because we hear lots of vegans talk about speciesism and the absurdity
of treating a dog according to a certain set of standards and a cow according to others.
But I don't think I have heard much talks about the number of animal slaughters and if
that made a difference.
Yeah that's a great question and I think in order to properly answer it I need to kind
of contextualize slaughterhouses historically.
So the slaughterhouses we currently know it is relatively new.
So historically people killed you know a few animals in their backyards for their own personal
consumption.
But then in the 19th century there was a shift from you know small scale backyard slaughtering
of animals to moving it to a more central place.
And interestingly one of the reasons for that move was that reformers at the time were concerned
about the public being exposed to the visuals of animals being slaughtered and also the
sounds the smells etc.
And so they were moved from public places and became unique institutions.
So instead of you know in the past when they animals were killed small scale in people's
backyards or personal consumption now you had a unique space being created for that
purpose.
And so actually in France in the 19th century it became necessary to coin a term abattoir
to refer to this new space that was created.
And it was when they shifted out of public spaces they were made quite nondescript so
you wouldn't necessarily see one and know one just like today right.
They're hard to identify and viales actually refers to it as a place that is no place right.
It's hard to pinpoint what you're looking at unless you know what to what to look for.
And so then then there was a shift where they started industrializing.
So they went from you know concentrated killing of animals to all of a sudden this larger
scale killing of animals that was made possible by mechanization you know increase in worker
number of workers into the facilities etc.
And so then through this industrialization then we see large slaughterhouses emerge which
are quite different and actually not just conceptually different but also empirically
have different relationships with things like community impacts than small-scale slaughterhouses
do.
LR And what is it about you know coming back to my question why you know do we react you
know we're joyful when it's like a village festival or something a farming festival and
we're killing a few pigs but with slaughterhouses you know there's something graphic the footage
of it makes people deeply uncomfortable and even some of them become vegan as a consequence.
So what is it psychologically in humans that make us you know make that differentiation?
KM Well there are a number of perspectives on that.
One individual Norbert Elias has referred to it as part of a broader so-called civilizing
process where instead of you know instead of serving animals with the full body on the
table for instance right which had been standard practice people became increasingly uncomfortable
and it was a shift away from you know our own animality right that we needed to separate
the you know the actual visual of the animal that we were consuming and so then you see
the shift towards you know the more out of sight out of mind the better and with the
you know currently the industry it has helped to serve their ends right because people don't
go poking around looking for slaughterhouses generally you know unless they're activists
who have have an interest in you know in that specific space but we don't we don't consumers
don't search them out right so the less they know the better you know that's the way the
industry feels and it's certainly the way a lot of consumers feel.
So just to illustrate that point historically like in the stockyards in Chicago which in
the U.S. was kind of the Mecca of animal slaughtering at one point in history you used to be able
to do tours and they were quite you know celebrated right that was like the tourist thing to do
when you were in Chicago now you can't you can't get near a slaughterhouse I certainly
can't right it's it's quite quite uncommon that they invite they would allow the public
to come in to see what's going on there and also you know the flip side of that is it
would be relatively uncommon for consumers to to want to see you know how their how their
meat is is produced because it's it's not a particularly savory process.
That's fascinating and so what I understand from what you're saying is that our ancestors
would not be as shocked by slaughterhouses as we would.
Yeah and I think you know I this scale also has something to do with it so not only is
it part of you know a broader cultural process of trying to separate ourselves from our own
animality but also the the scale of it now is is so immense and a lot of consumers I
think don't realize how many animals are killed in slaughterhouses how quickly they're killed
which is one of the reasons that work in the industry has you know among the highest injury
and illness rates because of the speed so remember I was talking about the mechanization
of animal slaughtering and part of that was this you know conveyor system so it's you
know like in the automotive manufacturing industry there's the assembly line where you
assemble cars well this is kind of the disassembly line where you kill and process animal body
parts and it's quite fast right a number of authors have have talked about the speed but
one of the consequences of that is not only does it raise a number of animal welfare concerns
but also you know employee welfare concerns because of the the speed at which they have
to work so the workers lost control over the speed of their own work and now it's you know
the companies that that set those speeds.
If I'm not mistaken Henry Ford get got inspired for his factory model by a visit to a Chicago
based slaughterhouse.
Yes yeah that story has been cited in a number of a number of papers and books that yeah
it became you know there's this connection between the two industries and interestingly
animal slaughtering tends to be classified as a form of manufacturing although you know
as I talk about in my paper and you know in books that I've written the the industry is
it's unique right it's categorized as manufacturing but it's inherently different when you're
when you're working on sentient beings you're not just working on you know creating widgets
or what have you right it's you're you're engaged with sentient beings and then processing
their bodies after after they're after they're killed.
I guess there are two characteristics that we have talked about that truly differentiate
slaughterhouses as an institution from others.
First of all they are hidden and they are trying very hard to get out of our sight.
So the business model has to do with killing sentient beings.
Can you talk more about that business model how it's fundamentally different from business
as we know it and you know ways of making money?
Sure and one of the ways that well there are a number of things that point to the differences.
One thing that is stands out and this is a relatively recent development in some countries
is the the passage of so-called ad gag laws where it criminalizes certain activities by
whistleblowers etc. who then can't you know for fear of their own well-being report on
what they see in their workplace whether or not they were you know it becomes tricky to
identify individuals who were employed in that work and then had concerns or took that
work on specifically because they were looking for concerns but regardless the development
of ad gag laws is you know quite quite unique to the industry.
There aren't many other industries that legislatures determine we need special laws and some have
argued that criminalize already criminal behavior right.
It's a way of kind of dampening the the resolve to expose what goes on in those industries.
So and where I live in Ontario ours was just partially mostly our ad gag law was was shut
down and kudos to animal justice here in Canada who was able to argue convincingly argue in
court that that the law was problematic and violated a number of freedoms among workers
and activists.
So there's there's that protectionism of the industry that we see there are also different
empirical consequences.
So one of the one of the things that I've done in my research and I did this study with
doctors Linda Kaleff and Thomas Dietz a number of years ago now and we analyzed the relationship
between slaughterhouse employment levels in counties in the US and crime rates and you
might be wondering well why you know why do that and the reason is I was actually doing
reading because I'm interested in the environmental impacts of animal agriculture and I was reading
on that subject and came across a number of studies by anthropologists geographers who
were studying slaughterhouse communities and so you know to step back a little bit again
back into the historical development of the slaughterhouse in the later mid to late 20th
century slaughterhouses in a number of countries started to move from urban centers to rural
communities because they realized it would be more cost effective to move the slaughtering
closer to where the animals are are raised and so as a consequence of that shift a number
of rural small communities ended up with these large industries coming in and it changed
the communities in a number of ways.
So these researchers were documenting these changes and they pointed to a number of changes
that they saw like increased demand for housing, social services, etc. but one of the interesting
things that they mentioned was that crime increased and they you know they weren't sure
why why crime would increase when slaughterhouses came in because it was outpacing the increase
in population right so we couldn't explain it just based on population increase alone
and so we did a study to assess are these is there a relationship between slaughterhouse
employment and crime and we so we statistically controlled for a number of variables that
would be associated with crime like proportion of young men in the population etc. and we
also included comparison industries so we identified industries where they they were
similar to slaughterhouse employment as far as you know relatively high injury and illness
rates but the difference was you weren't you know killing and processing animal bodies
in those industries and so when we ran the analyses it was it was clear that slaughterhouse
employment level was associated with crime rates specifically violent crime rates but
the comparison industries were not so empirically that indicates that there's something unique
about slaughterhouse employment levels and you know we need further research to kind
of unpack that to figure out okay what's going on that you know accounts for these differences
but it is it is interesting that empirically they're different and what we found in the
analysis was when we looked at small-scale slaughterhouses they really didn't have that
strong association with crime rates it was these large slaughterhouses that that had
you know the the strongest relationship statistically significant relationship with crime rates
and like I said we controlled for a number of other correlates of crime like population
density proportion of young men and proportion of immigrant population in the county because
that's one thing that when communities had voice concerns because of increasing crime
rates a number of the the companies were scapegoating the employees and saying oh it's because you
know we can't find local workers so we've had to bring in immigrant workers so basically
blaming immigrant labor but the criminologist in me you know read that and thought well
that's interesting because there are a number of studies that show that in the proportion
of immigrants in a community is not associated with increased crime rates in a number of
studies it's actually associated with a decrease in crime rates so that's not the explanation
either so that's just a very long way of saying there's something unique about slaughterhouse
employment and the industry because of the the nature of the work you know killing and
processing animals I want to get back to the workers but first yes you're right this industry
is in bed with the government and they receive subsidies they have captured some of our MPs
who then push their unconstitutional laws how did that relationship that that union
between slaughterhouses and big ag industry and the government was created well I think
part of it has to do with the consolidation in the industry so increasingly throughout
the you know late 20th century there was a consolidation of you know slaughterhouse
facilities were being bought up by large companies so increasingly it was you know has become
an industry run by a handful of companies for the most part so it really it gave those
industry it gave those companies enhanced power and it made lobbying that much easier
right because you had fewer people at the table and so it has it has certainly made
you know the animal agriculture animal slaughtering and processing you know one of the largest
lobbying groups in a number of countries and I and that lobbying I think as we're seeing
more more concerns being raised you know the the law it seems like the lobbying has amplified
as well right historically you know there there wasn't that much to be concerned about
I suppose from animal groups but now especially you know one of your guests on an earlier
episode was talking about social media and social media has had a significant role I
think because now you know you don't need to rely on news media to show videos undercover
videos and slaughterhouses or animal agriculture more generally right someone can just post
it on social media and all of a sudden you have you know thousands if not millions of
people seeing that video and and that certainly has an impact so I have you know I've noticed
and a number of other academics have spoken about the the increased defensiveness among
the among the industry because it's it seems like these these efforts are having an impact
if they weren't there would be no need to have add gad laws and yet they you know different
jurisdictions you know have have been implementing them in recent years that's I guess a kind
of silver lining you know it's a it's a positive spin to their efforts of you know closing
down the discourse around what they're doing they feel threatened yes they it they certainly
they certainly do and it's and it's also industries around them as well like now it with you know
transport companies that transport animals to slaughter increasingly they're they're
concerned about you know activists showing up at slaughterhouses as you know vigils and
we had an interesting legal case here in in Ontario where an activist was charged criminally
for giving water to a pig on the way to slaughter you know it it I think it could be argued
that in the past that wouldn't have happened because that activists wouldn't have been
seen as as a threat right and inconvenience maybe but but not a threat that warranted
calling the police and and having charges laid and you talked about the mechanization
aspect and I guess you know we think about science and innovation as a way to maybe free
ourselves from this industry and have lab-grown meat and things like that in the future but
but maybe they're also thinking you know big slaughterhouses we can maybe go further with
that mechanization process maybe we can get rid ourselves from the workers entirely and
have you know automated entirely automated slaughterhouses is that science fiction or
have you read or heard about plans of doing that well I can't speak to whether or not
there are specific plans of doing that but you can see the trend over time of fewer workers
and that's one of the reasons that the the labor power of workers in the industry has
weakened historically in a number of countries you know slaughterhouse work was relatively
well paid but then you know as we see this consolidation of ownership over animal slaughtering
we see a you know a declining number of workers and a declining power of of their labor and
unionization so I can say that there there has been that certainly that trend over over
time and of course you know as as we see further developments technologically perhaps that
will you know that will continue another question I have and you know maybe you have the answer
maybe not but something I I often think about is the executives of those slaughterhouses
I feel like those people are in an office and they don't really leave the office for
them you know all of those animals and workers and all of what we were talking about those
are just numbers on the spreadsheet what do you think of them you know because we we often
put you know focus on the manual workers who are in in the slaughterhouse itself but what
about those who witness the the impact of the slaughterhouse from a you know close standpoint
you know closer than activists and you know they're aware of what's happening but they
don't do anything about it do you have some thoughts about those people well I suppose
like any business you know where there were their profits to be made you know it it can
facilitate kind of looking in the other direction and not critically examining what you know
what you're the type of work that you're doing and I think this is this is one area where
you really see the the intersections of you know animal welfare human welfare environmental
welfare they they clearly intersect right no one no one wins from this industry except
for you know stockholders and you know the executives perhaps but it is it's an area
where the that's one reason why I I don't like when people kind of you know try to scapegoat
the individual workers right like or or denigrate them and it's tied this has happened historically
right where you know in the 18th century people were you know denigrating slaughterers because
they didn't want to be associated with them etc because they felt that there was there
was something problematic about that type of work the reality is you know individuals
need work and this is an area where there are jobs because the turnover is is so high
in some companies it's as high as 100 per year entirely new workforce right so it's
not it's not the individual workers in the facilities that you know are the are the so
called enemy and so that's you know that's one thing that I think would it would help
if if people paid attention to these interconnections right that it's it's not just about animal
welfare it's about you know the welfare of the workers the welfare of people who live
in the community around the facilities so that I think the more that we we help spread
that knowledge I think that can be quite quite helpful so that people realize because let's
face it some people aren't motivated by the animal welfare arguments right I've been you
know trying to I've been voicing those arguments for decades now those arguments don't seem
to be the convincing arguments unfortunately it tends to be the arguments where you can
say look here's something that's connected with you know animal concerns but also human
concerns also environmental concerns that you know are going to negatively impact humans
we're a very self-centered species so the the more that we can point to human impacts
I think that's strategically helpful but also for the workers caught up in the system you
know I think it's it's helpful as well to kind of try to give voice to their experiences
and and see the connections between workers rights and animal rights.
One last question about the business model.
You're a criminologist do you think that the kind of you know people who work as executives,
managers of those slaughterhouses and even maybe the manual workers do you think many
of them are have anti-social personality that this kind of business attracts people who
have a anti-social personality?
I don't know and it's an area it's a question I get asked a lot and I think it's an area
where we need further research because you know we can based on the research that we
have right now we can only kind of speculate but we really do need further research to
kind of see okay if empirically there is a relationship between slaughterhouse employment
levels and crime in in communities why is that the case and kind of focus in on those
potential relationships.
Now the problem is it's hard to get you know funding to conduct research like that right
it's not like the industry is going to fund that for obvious reasons right so it's definitely
a challenge but it's an area where we definitely need more research to see okay what's going
on here with you know employment and based on anecdotal evidence you know from workers
that I've spoken with and that other academics you know have have quoted in their own work
this it's very different the the hands-on you know disassembly line work is very challenging
physically emotionally and you know it's probably one of the reasons that the turnover rate
in the industry tends to be so high but of course then the the turnover rate exacerbates
the underlying problems right because then you have workers who are you know they haven't
been there long so they're not as well trained as in other industries which can contribute
to you know injuries can contribute to animal welfare issues because you're you don't have
people who have been in these jobs for a long period of time so it's you know it's just
a very long-winded way of saying that we need I can't I can't draw any conclusions about
your question because we really do need more research but it's not a definitive no right
yeah I I can't say that it's you know it's definitely off the table but I can't you know
empirically confirm it either okay let's now talk about the impact of slaughterhouses on
their workers but also the community at large and we touched on that of course and I want
to start with something a past guest had told me you know she she she told me about Syrian
refugees who came to Canada and how the government pushed them into slaughterhouse jobs and she
expressed how horrifying that was you know taking refugees from war zones and then pushing
them into slaughterhouses but then I you know posted that you know clip of her saying that
and to my surprise many people commented you know how dare they complained you know about
this you know we're we're welcoming them into the country and we're offering them a good
job why is this cruel so I'm asking you the question why is it cruel to send you know Syrian
refugees to slaughterhouses for for work
well as I mentioned it's objectively based on you know reports it's among the the highest
injury and illness rates the turnover as I said is is really high so it's not like you're
setting them up in a career that's going to be you know a great stable safe career right
the reality is the industry not just in Canada and other countries needs workers and this
is how it you know populates the workforce in some in some places in addition to refugees
there are also programs in some countries where incarcerated individuals are used in
slaughterhouses which also raises a number of you know issues take even if you take out
the animal component entirely objectively speaking when you're talking about high injury
and illness rates you know it's it's probably not a good thing to put you know vulnerable
people in because it's going to be hard for them to speak against power right so if they
see something it's going to be hard for them to say something because they have relatively
little power and are concerned about keeping their employment so it's it's definitely an
area where I think we need more we need more education to explain you know to the Canadian
government other governments that there are some problems here and as I've been you know
mentioning the industry is unique you can't just assume it's going to be like putting
someone in an automotive manufacturing plant right a different manufacturing they're they're
different and they needed they need to be treated differently and I'll give you an example
so the the Canadian government correction services Canada closed down we used to have
six penitentiary firms they closed them down and then decided a different government decided
you know approximately 10 years later that they were going to reopen the farms and the
proposal that they put forth was an industrial scale goat dairy where incarcerated individuals
would be working and it's and in the the messaging about it there's this conflation of well
you know animal assisted therapy is good it's you know been proven to have positive impacts
but they they don't critically reflect upon the fact that this is not animal assisted
therapy it's very it's a very different context working in a an industrial animal agriculture
facility whether it's on the you know raising animals or killing and processing animals
it's not animal therapy it's intentionally set up in a way so that people don't form
relationships with those animals because that would be problematic to the system right so
there's no therapeutic relationship going on there but in the messaging about these
programs it's like you know they they don't they don't pay attention to that they don't
address it it's like we'll just throw animals in and stir and then we're going to have these
therapeutic benefits and so i've you know i've been arguing against that proposal it's
as of right now it's been tabled but we'll see what happens with it because there there
aren't therapeutic benefits and you know as i've been saying it's it's not an industry
where you're going to have you know it where it's going to be an easy job and i mean easy
in the sense of you know free of injury illness and it's also increasingly not an area where
there's you know a lot of careers being you know set up where you can go into it and then
you know you're you're set in a career for life so instead you know programs that help
provide meaningful certifications where people can use those certifications whether they're
coming out of an incarceration situation or they're coming into the country as a refugee
set them up with meaningful work that's going to lead to a meaningful career not you know
a job in an industry where the turnover rate is so high you know they're they're not going
to be there long it's it's not a it's not a stable working environment i'm thinking
of what kind of response they would give to your answer and i guess they could say let's
just create trainings you know training sessions more training sessions or revisit our training
sessions and let's give our workers more you know protective tools and so i guess my question
is is this industry will this industry always harm its workers is it you know fundamentally
flawed this way or is there a way to improve the life of those workers there is a way to
improve the life of the workers but it would take money which would cut into profits and
but i think a lot of people don't realize is that the industry works on a very thin
profit line per animal so it it relies on scale so we need they need to have more animals
in order to make more profit right otherwise they would have to increase the price that
they're charging for their products and that's something as you know we see in the current
inflationary you know period that we're in in a number of countries that people are very
resistant to a lot of people you know don't want to pay more for animal products a lot
of people can't pay more for animal products yet they you know they believe that that's
the only way that they can you know exist you know their diet needs to have animals
as you know as part of it and so there's there's a real resistance to the industry increasing
pricing which would be required i think to to provide the workers with with what they
with what they would need for an ideal situation and even to to enhance animal welfare i mean
i know there you know we we don't have time to get into this huge debate between you know
animal welfare approaches versus you know animal liberation approaches but there are
definitely things that could be done in the industry that would enhance animal welfare
but they would take time slowing down the you know the disassembly line would improve
animal welfare it would improve worker welfare you know some would argue it would it would
improve the safety of the the food that's produced in these facilities but it would
it would eat into eat into profits so you know there probably aren't a lot of people
listening to a podcast focused on veganism who aren't vegan but there you know there
might be some and what i would urge those listeners to do is to think about whether
or not you want to provide the industry with money knowing what you now know right that
it's not there aren't just you know human there aren't just animal impacts there are
human impacts as well and i think we need to we need to think about those and keep them
front of mind and also you know as as i tell my students and i realize it's it's rare when
i teach a class where there's more than like one or two you know students who identify
as vegan but i tell them you know even if you're not vegan you should be concerned
about an industry that you're buying products from that is doing everything it can to keep
keep consumers keep the public out of of that industry you know out of seeing what's going
on that has you know such a vested interest in making sure that there is no transparency
you know that supports ad-gag laws because they're afraid of what's going to be reported
i think anyone you know vegan non-vegan alike should be concerned about that
LR Another point i want to bring up is the public
health aspect of it there are a lot of vegans out there who make the health argument for
veganism but it's always you know an individualistic you know argument you know from a me perspective
you know your diet will improve and your health will improve but i don't hear much you know
talks about the public health argument around veganism so why are slaughterhouses dangerous
for public health?
LR Well the industry as a whole has a number of associated problems or externalities with
it that you know have been documented in the literature and one of the one of the main
reasons is because of and it's again something a lot of people don't want to talk about but
it's the amount of manure that's produced.
Manure is really problematic because it has you know high levels of nitrogen and phosphorus
in it which can then cause problems when it gets into the you know the water you know
there are manure lagoons that can be created but of course they're not perfect if there's
a natural disaster so for instance hurricanes you know if you just google hurricane and
manure lagoon you'll see all sorts of pictures of you know manure lagoons being breached
from flood waters and things like that so there are a number of you know a number of
public health related concerns around where they're located which is why there's you
know as there's increasing awareness about this there's increasing resistance among communities
who don't want them to set up shop in their communities so for instance there was a community
in Montana that invited me Great Falls Montana that invited me to give a talk prior to a
screening of a documentary and there were a number of people who were there to share
their thoughts and one thing that I thought was really cool about that event was that
they were bringing in a variety of people to talk about the problems of this from a
number of angles right so there were people there who were speaking to the environmental
impacts people who were speaking to the social community impacts people speaking about the
animal welfare impacts so you could really you could really see the connections and I
think that that that helped to kind of give a full picture so you know and public health
is is part of that there's research that shows that property values around these facilities
drop dramatically so for those who you know don't necessarily care about the environment
animals other people you know sometimes they're swayed by their their own property values
taking a dive as a result and there are also studies that have documented you know the
public health impacts for the workers right increased risk of all sorts of respiratory
illnesses zoonotic illnesses right COVID-19 kind of shined a light on the on the industry
as far as you know the the transmission of COVID-19 between the workers was so was so
high and there are studies that you know have shown that individuals who work in animal
facilities are at greater risk of contracting zoonotic illnesses and you know and also then
transmitting them to their families so you can see you know the public health impacts
there there are many potential impacts and and like I said they're they're well documented
in the literature you know scientists have been have been documenting them for a few
decades now and so it's you know you can just look to the literature and find all of these
documented studies that show that the the risks increase with these types of organizations
I want to now get to the activism part and how to fight this because you're making you
know such great points I mean every argument points to every piece of information and study
we have points to you know this is a bad idea this is not a smart idea we should abolish
those institutions and then you have activism work around it first of all would you you
know rate the efficiency we talked about you know how social media has helped you know
putting the pressure on on them and making them feel threatened but then you have you
know people breaking in doing you know sit in inside you have you know the animal liberation
front who enters those places and liberate animals so you have all kinds of activism
around slaughterhouses do you have an idea of which ones are the most efficient in terms
of making an impact and getting us near the goal of abolishing those institutions I give
it my thoughts are I think the most effective are those where we can kind of form coalitions
around the issues so you know joining forces with environmentally focused organizations
and individuals and knowing okay there are going to be some differences right you're
not going to be dealing with a group that's you know entirely vegan or you know same thing
with workers rights groups but I think forming those coalitions is helpful because sometimes
I think it's it's easy to for the general public to kind of look away from animal focused
messaging right because for all the reasons we've been talking about people don't want
to think about where their meat comes from where their dairy comes from their eggs etc.
And so it's easy for them to shut down but if you're making a broader argument around
not just the animals but also you know human rights environmental justice I think then
you can you know the effect of the message might spread a little more widely and I like
what one of your previous guests Robert Cheek had to say about you know you it's really
hard to bring people over to your side if you're you know calling them names and telling
them how horrible they are but it helps if you can you know show people these connections
and you know convince people that even if you don't care about the animal issues they're
interconnected with so many other issues and concerns you know and hit them where they
live and that's their own personal well-being for you know for many people and you know
point to all of these all of the implications of this industry and also I think it helps
to put it into historical context and show people like this is this is historically speaking
relatively new development it's not like we're stuck with it right it's not like it's you
know part of our you know it's not etched into our DNA or something right it's a relatively
new social institution and it can it can be changed it just takes people you know being
willing to to mobilize and you know and work with other people and I think that's that
helps to you know get the the message out and also fighting as hard as possible against
these you know legislative aims and strategies to you know prevent the public from gaining
information about what's going on you know I think people should have the right to know
how their food is being produced and I don't think there's anything all that controversial
in that statement right and so I think conveying that to people might help to kind of make
them think okay yeah that's that's a fair point and I also I think it can help sometimes
to to put yourself in a position where you can be a model for other people and say okay
you know I was once in the position that you were I didn't know what was going on but now
I do and here's how I live my life as a result and I think that's important and and to be
honest with you it's something I didn't used to do as much as I do now and it occurred
to me one day I was teaching a class and it was corporate and governmental crime class
and we were talking about you know a number of different industries and we were talking
about the animal agriculture industry and at one point one of my students raised his
hands and said but what's the solution it's not like we can all be vegan we would die
and he really thought that right and so at that moment I realized okay I need I need
to start telling my students that I'm vegan because otherwise they really do believe these
things right and some of that is you know sponsored by the industry itself right tell
people that they're going to die from protein deficiencies or you know that they need meat
to to survive and so I think sometimes it can help to put yourself out there and say
okay look this is you know this is totally feasible for you for you to do but you know
my caveat to that is be ready for people to try to discredit what you're saying because
you're taking that position because you're vegan even if you're speaking about something
that's totally unrelated and I've had that happen I actually just had an instance of
it a couple months ago where I had to appear as an expert witness in a court case and it
was totally unrelated to food and one of the first things during cross-examination that
was raised was you know Dr. Fitzgerald would you agree that eating meat is wrong and I
thought and I answered it honestly but I thought the question has nothing to do with the case
but the reason it was raised was to try to do this credit everything else that I was
saying so I think the more that people you know put themselves out there and identify
you know as healthy vegans I think that you know can help but like I said just be ready
because you will have people who will challenge everything you have to say because you've
made that position clear but what about the mental health aspect of it because you know
you're studying this and it's a dark topic you know and I guess it has its effects on
your mental health I mean just thinking about slaughterhouses I often wonder is it my moral
obligation to you know do something like animal liberation front activists do and just go
there you know it's a hour drive from where I live and try to you know save an animal
you know is it not you know my moral obligation and then you have you know the mental charge
of having you know just yesterday there was a birthday thing with work and they had some
cake and the cake was not vegan so I just you know took a cup of coffee and I was holding
the cup of coffee and everyone was eating the cake I was thinking yeah there is a mental
charge there's a cost to identifying as vegan and moving in society and then of course I
had you know a barrage of questions from co-workers about my veganism so what do you make of the
mental health aspect of it you know because we want to be strategic we want to be rational
in our activism but at the same time we have all of those feelings so yeah.
That's a really good question and I will say as someone who's a long time vegan it has
gotten easier and I think because we're seeing real social change you know so part of the
reason it's gotten easier is probably just you know I take it for granted now and that's
just how I live my life but I think we're seeing real social change around us so now
you know people will ask questions and I think they're you know they're genuine well-meaning
questions like you know why are you vegan how'd you become vegan and so you know I like
to use that opportunity to help explain to people you know as delicately as possible
sometimes depending on the circumstance but yeah I mean there are you know mental health
aspects of it too I suppose right living your life in a way that is so counter to the norm
and I'd be lying if I said it you know it isn't frustrating at times you know when people
are you know offering you money to if you'll eat a burger you know I'll give you $2,000
you know things like that so it it can be challenging but it it is I am seeing I am
seeing that it's improving right that there's there's less view of it as being you know
problematic or unhealthy right when I when I first started my vegan journey you know
countless people would tell me how unhealthy I was going to be etc and now I I don't have
people saying that I have people asking me questions because now they're concerned about
their own health right so how you know how do you do it do you have any suggestions because
you know my doctors told me I need to I need to make some real changes so it it has it
has improved but like I said there's definitely a toll to be paid knowing that you will have
you know what you say question because because you are a vegan and that you know that frustrates
me it's always frustrated me and it will no doubt always frustrate me.
A last question many people use the Holocaust comparison you know to talk about slaughterhouses
for some you know it is offensive but let me ask you is it accurate and should we use
it for activism work?
There are there are a number of you know activists organizations and and even even you know some
of my fellow academics that point to you know other horrible events in human history where
people have been enslaved and you know killed and you know in large numbers and I think
there's I don't see that there's a whole lot to be gained from those comparisons.
I think that each each is unique in its own ways and I you know I and especially given
what I think are such the importance of paying attention to the ways that animal well-being
human well-being environmental well-being are all interconnected I don't think that
we need to point to other examples and say okay you know this is bad because that was
bad we know this is this is bad and I think we can we can make that case without pointing
to to other examples to try and make the case for us.
Another question I had was about the perspective on this issue and how future generations will
think of slaughterhouses hopefully you know in a century maybe you know less years slaughterhouses
will be will have you know disappeared but then we'll have the memory of what happened
what had occurred and the billions of creatures that were killed.
What do we make of that?
How do we you know how are we going to be remembered and what do we make of all that
loss?
It's hard and I think you know one of the ways that I think we can do it is to work
actively against forgetting right and to work against you know currently like it like I've
been saying you know work for more transparency and if hopefully one day you know there's
people are no longer killing animals for consumption then you know it working to not forget what
what was done because you know you know the saying goes you either you know learn history
or you're doomed to repeat it so I think it's you know it's critical that we don't lose
sight of it and I know even with my I have a nine-year-old son who doesn't eat meat but
you know I have talks with him about meat consumption and you know what it means and
you know those are hard talks because he genuinely you know loves animals and the thought that
other people are eating animals is you know hard to wrap his brain around but I think
it's important so that you know so that he knows and then you know he can explain it
to other people which might not make him the most popular kid on the playground but you
know it's it's important that we confront it and you know not lose not lose sight of
it and like I said and not you know and also pay attention to the ways that we've we've
harmed ourselves in doing it this way too I think that's a very important lesson as
well.
So, Amy, did you have anything more to add to the conversation before we stop the recording?
I can't think of anything else you know that was a good questions that kind of ran the
full the full gamut of everything yeah I can't think of anything else.
Well that's a good sign.
I'm getting better at interviewing my guests.
Yeah it's definitely you know a skill that you know that you have you have to cultivate
it's a challenge I know even in my own research when I'm interviewing participants the first
few interviews are kind of rough and then I hit my stride and it you know it gets better.
I need I need your tips for you know future interviews.
I think practice makes if not perfection then then close to it.
Well I have hours of practice now.
Yeah well and I've been enjoying your your podcast it's it's nice to have you know the
the focused vegan attention and you know and the guests that you have on sometimes they're
areas where you know I haven't really given much thought to and you know it's it's it's
nice to kind of think outside my narrow little little box.
Well thank you so much for saying that you know I don't agree with all of my guests you
know but still it is interesting to hear their views.
Yeah definitely and it's you know it's helpful because then I think your listeners you know
it might help because they might not identify with one perspective but you know someone
else's perspective might be similar to their own and that might be what clicks for them.
And maybe with time you know I'll think about past conversations with guests and change
my mind you know.
Yeah yeah.
Amazing so Amy thank you so much for having taken the time to answer my questions for
having been a guest on the show for your great knowledge and scholarship is it you know is
it only money or can we say scholarship.
Yeah thank you I appreciate that and thanks again for the invitation.
Thank you everyone for listening I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the
vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
And thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.