1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,160 Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:11,680 There is one thing that Big Ag absolutely does not want us to talk about and that is 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,360 slaughterhouses. 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,800 So let's talk about it in depth for this entire episode. 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,440 Let's talk about why they are hidden, the harm they cause not just to animals but also 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,840 human societies and the environment. 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,580 And most importantly let's talk about how to close them down for good. 8 00:00:32,580 --> 00:00:38,240 To discuss this topic I have with me Dr. Amy Fitzgerald, a professor and researcher at 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,360 the University of Windsor. 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:46,280 She has written multiple books such as Animal Advocacy and Environmentalism Understanding 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:54,480 and Bridging the Divide, Animals as Food Reconnecting Production, Processing, Consumption and Impacts, 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Animal Abuse and Family Violence, Researching the Interrelationships of Abusive Power and 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:07,200 A Social History of the Slaughterhouse from Inception to Contemporary Implications, which 14 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:13,800 is not a book but the article that inspired me to reach out to Dr. Fitzgerald, a must 15 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,320 read you can access by following the link in the description below. 16 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,240 Thank you Amy for having accepted my invitation and for being here. 17 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:24,680 It's my pleasure. 18 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:30,000 I want to first get to why slaughterhouses are such unique institutions. 19 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,020 And let me start by this. 20 00:01:32,020 --> 00:01:34,520 You quote in your paper, V.I.S. 21 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:41,040 I think his name is, who writes, whereas the slaughter of a few animals may be a festive 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:47,040 occasion, slaughter on a larger scale is different, it is disturbing. 23 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:52,080 Therefore means must be found of putting it out of mind. 24 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:58,440 Why do we differentiate the slaughter of a few animals versus the slaughter on a large 25 00:01:58,440 --> 00:01:59,440 scale? 26 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:05,320 I mean psychologically because we hear lots of vegans talk about speciesism and the absurdity 27 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:11,520 of treating a dog according to a certain set of standards and a cow according to others. 28 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:18,480 But I don't think I have heard much talks about the number of animal slaughters and if 29 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,480 that made a difference. 30 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:27,880 Yeah that's a great question and I think in order to properly answer it I need to kind 31 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:33,040 of contextualize slaughterhouses historically. 32 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:40,440 So the slaughterhouses we currently know it is relatively new. 33 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:49,920 So historically people killed you know a few animals in their backyards for their own personal 34 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:52,280 consumption. 35 00:02:52,280 --> 00:03:00,160 But then in the 19th century there was a shift from you know small scale backyard slaughtering 36 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,360 of animals to moving it to a more central place. 37 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:11,720 And interestingly one of the reasons for that move was that reformers at the time were concerned 38 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:20,080 about the public being exposed to the visuals of animals being slaughtered and also the 39 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,280 sounds the smells etc. 40 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:31,520 And so they were moved from public places and became unique institutions. 41 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:38,080 So instead of you know in the past when they animals were killed small scale in people's 42 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:45,480 backyards or personal consumption now you had a unique space being created for that 43 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,600 purpose. 44 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:55,040 And so actually in France in the 19th century it became necessary to coin a term abattoir 45 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:02,640 to refer to this new space that was created. 46 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:12,720 And it was when they shifted out of public spaces they were made quite nondescript so 47 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,680 you wouldn't necessarily see one and know one just like today right. 48 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:24,680 They're hard to identify and viales actually refers to it as a place that is no place right. 49 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:32,800 It's hard to pinpoint what you're looking at unless you know what to what to look for. 50 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:40,760 And so then then there was a shift where they started industrializing. 51 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:48,180 So they went from you know concentrated killing of animals to all of a sudden this larger 52 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:58,640 scale killing of animals that was made possible by mechanization you know increase in worker 53 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,560 number of workers into the facilities etc. 54 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:10,640 And so then through this industrialization then we see large slaughterhouses emerge which 55 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:17,080 are quite different and actually not just conceptually different but also empirically 56 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:26,040 have different relationships with things like community impacts than small-scale slaughterhouses 57 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:27,040 do. 58 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:36,760 LR And what is it about you know coming back to my question why you know do we react you 59 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:44,400 know we're joyful when it's like a village festival or something a farming festival and 60 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:52,600 we're killing a few pigs but with slaughterhouses you know there's something graphic the footage 61 00:05:52,600 --> 00:06:04,280 of it makes people deeply uncomfortable and even some of them become vegan as a consequence. 62 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:10,520 So what is it psychologically in humans that make us you know make that differentiation? 63 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:18,520 KM Well there are a number of perspectives on that. 64 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:25,600 One individual Norbert Elias has referred to it as part of a broader so-called civilizing 65 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:35,040 process where instead of you know instead of serving animals with the full body on the 66 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:42,920 table for instance right which had been standard practice people became increasingly uncomfortable 67 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:51,320 and it was a shift away from you know our own animality right that we needed to separate 68 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:58,280 the you know the actual visual of the animal that we were consuming and so then you see 69 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:08,000 the shift towards you know the more out of sight out of mind the better and with the 70 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,600 you know currently the industry it has helped to serve their ends right because people don't 71 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:22,240 go poking around looking for slaughterhouses generally you know unless they're activists 72 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:31,920 who have have an interest in you know in that specific space but we don't we don't consumers 73 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:38,360 don't search them out right so the less they know the better you know that's the way the 74 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,980 industry feels and it's certainly the way a lot of consumers feel. 75 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:51,560 So just to illustrate that point historically like in the stockyards in Chicago which in 76 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:57,280 the U.S. was kind of the Mecca of animal slaughtering at one point in history you used to be able 77 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:05,600 to do tours and they were quite you know celebrated right that was like the tourist thing to do 78 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:12,320 when you were in Chicago now you can't you can't get near a slaughterhouse I certainly 79 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:21,880 can't right it's it's quite quite uncommon that they invite they would allow the public 80 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:27,640 to come in to see what's going on there and also you know the flip side of that is it 81 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:35,240 would be relatively uncommon for consumers to to want to see you know how their how their 82 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:44,000 meat is is produced because it's it's not a particularly savory process. 83 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:52,040 That's fascinating and so what I understand from what you're saying is that our ancestors 84 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:58,960 would not be as shocked by slaughterhouses as we would. 85 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:07,240 Yeah and I think you know I this scale also has something to do with it so not only is 86 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,800 it part of you know a broader cultural process of trying to separate ourselves from our own 87 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:24,200 animality but also the the scale of it now is is so immense and a lot of consumers I 88 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:32,000 think don't realize how many animals are killed in slaughterhouses how quickly they're killed 89 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:38,940 which is one of the reasons that work in the industry has you know among the highest injury 90 00:09:38,940 --> 00:09:45,600 and illness rates because of the speed so remember I was talking about the mechanization 91 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:53,160 of animal slaughtering and part of that was this you know conveyor system so it's you 92 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,680 know like in the automotive manufacturing industry there's the assembly line where you 93 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:05,320 assemble cars well this is kind of the disassembly line where you kill and process animal body 94 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:12,800 parts and it's quite fast right a number of authors have have talked about the speed but 95 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:20,000 one of the consequences of that is not only does it raise a number of animal welfare concerns 96 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:26,040 but also you know employee welfare concerns because of the the speed at which they have 97 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,960 to work so the workers lost control over the speed of their own work and now it's you know 98 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,960 the companies that that set those speeds. 99 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:45,680 If I'm not mistaken Henry Ford get got inspired for his factory model by a visit to a Chicago 100 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:48,480 based slaughterhouse. 101 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:56,360 Yes yeah that story has been cited in a number of a number of papers and books that yeah 102 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:03,960 it became you know there's this connection between the two industries and interestingly 103 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:10,480 animal slaughtering tends to be classified as a form of manufacturing although you know 104 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:19,080 as I talk about in my paper and you know in books that I've written the the industry is 105 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:25,120 it's unique right it's categorized as manufacturing but it's inherently different when you're 106 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:30,800 when you're working on sentient beings you're not just working on you know creating widgets 107 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:39,360 or what have you right it's you're you're engaged with sentient beings and then processing 108 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,560 their bodies after after they're after they're killed. 109 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:51,160 I guess there are two characteristics that we have talked about that truly differentiate 110 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,480 slaughterhouses as an institution from others. 111 00:11:54,480 --> 00:12:04,360 First of all they are hidden and they are trying very hard to get out of our sight. 112 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:11,900 So the business model has to do with killing sentient beings. 113 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:18,600 Can you talk more about that business model how it's fundamentally different from business 114 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,960 as we know it and you know ways of making money? 115 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:33,400 Sure and one of the ways that well there are a number of things that point to the differences. 116 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:42,920 One thing that is stands out and this is a relatively recent development in some countries 117 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:54,240 is the the passage of so-called ad gag laws where it criminalizes certain activities by 118 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:03,080 whistleblowers etc. who then can't you know for fear of their own well-being report on 119 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:09,240 what they see in their workplace whether or not they were you know it becomes tricky to 120 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:17,160 identify individuals who were employed in that work and then had concerns or took that 121 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:23,960 work on specifically because they were looking for concerns but regardless the development 122 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:32,680 of ad gag laws is you know quite quite unique to the industry. 123 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:39,320 There aren't many other industries that legislatures determine we need special laws and some have 124 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:44,400 argued that criminalize already criminal behavior right. 125 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:52,960 It's a way of kind of dampening the the resolve to expose what goes on in those industries. 126 00:13:52,960 --> 00:14:04,600 So and where I live in Ontario ours was just partially mostly our ad gag law was was shut 127 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:12,680 down and kudos to animal justice here in Canada who was able to argue convincingly argue in 128 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:20,520 court that that the law was problematic and violated a number of freedoms among workers 129 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,080 and activists. 130 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:30,960 So there's there's that protectionism of the industry that we see there are also different 131 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,840 empirical consequences. 132 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:39,320 So one of the one of the things that I've done in my research and I did this study with 133 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:49,880 doctors Linda Kaleff and Thomas Dietz a number of years ago now and we analyzed the relationship 134 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:57,840 between slaughterhouse employment levels in counties in the US and crime rates and you 135 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:04,680 might be wondering well why you know why do that and the reason is I was actually doing 136 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:10,160 reading because I'm interested in the environmental impacts of animal agriculture and I was reading 137 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:17,320 on that subject and came across a number of studies by anthropologists geographers who 138 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:25,400 were studying slaughterhouse communities and so you know to step back a little bit again 139 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:32,920 back into the historical development of the slaughterhouse in the later mid to late 20th 140 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:38,240 century slaughterhouses in a number of countries started to move from urban centers to rural 141 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,440 communities because they realized it would be more cost effective to move the slaughtering 142 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:51,640 closer to where the animals are are raised and so as a consequence of that shift a number 143 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:59,560 of rural small communities ended up with these large industries coming in and it changed 144 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,920 the communities in a number of ways. 145 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:07,900 So these researchers were documenting these changes and they pointed to a number of changes 146 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:16,320 that they saw like increased demand for housing, social services, etc. but one of the interesting 147 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:23,360 things that they mentioned was that crime increased and they you know they weren't sure 148 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:30,680 why why crime would increase when slaughterhouses came in because it was outpacing the increase 149 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,680 in population right so we couldn't explain it just based on population increase alone 150 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:45,400 and so we did a study to assess are these is there a relationship between slaughterhouse 151 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:52,920 employment and crime and we so we statistically controlled for a number of variables that 152 00:16:52,920 --> 00:17:01,200 would be associated with crime like proportion of young men in the population etc. and we 153 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:08,720 also included comparison industries so we identified industries where they they were 154 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,320 similar to slaughterhouse employment as far as you know relatively high injury and illness 155 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:22,900 rates but the difference was you weren't you know killing and processing animal bodies 156 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:29,320 in those industries and so when we ran the analyses it was it was clear that slaughterhouse 157 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:36,160 employment level was associated with crime rates specifically violent crime rates but 158 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:44,200 the comparison industries were not so empirically that indicates that there's something unique 159 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:52,120 about slaughterhouse employment levels and you know we need further research to kind 160 00:17:52,120 --> 00:18:03,200 of unpack that to figure out okay what's going on that you know accounts for these differences 161 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,560 but it is it is interesting that empirically they're different and what we found in the 162 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:15,720 analysis was when we looked at small-scale slaughterhouses they really didn't have that 163 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:23,000 strong association with crime rates it was these large slaughterhouses that that had 164 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,280 you know the the strongest relationship statistically significant relationship with crime rates 165 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:35,120 and like I said we controlled for a number of other correlates of crime like population 166 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:44,440 density proportion of young men and proportion of immigrant population in the county because 167 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,780 that's one thing that when communities had voice concerns because of increasing crime 168 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:58,000 rates a number of the the companies were scapegoating the employees and saying oh it's because you 169 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:04,200 know we can't find local workers so we've had to bring in immigrant workers so basically 170 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:10,640 blaming immigrant labor but the criminologist in me you know read that and thought well 171 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:16,080 that's interesting because there are a number of studies that show that in the proportion 172 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,920 of immigrants in a community is not associated with increased crime rates in a number of 173 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:26,020 studies it's actually associated with a decrease in crime rates so that's not the explanation 174 00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:32,920 either so that's just a very long way of saying there's something unique about slaughterhouse 175 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:40,840 employment and the industry because of the the nature of the work you know killing and 176 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:50,520 processing animals I want to get back to the workers but first yes you're right this industry 177 00:19:50,520 --> 00:20:02,400 is in bed with the government and they receive subsidies they have captured some of our MPs 178 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:14,120 who then push their unconstitutional laws how did that relationship that that union 179 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:24,680 between slaughterhouses and big ag industry and the government was created well I think 180 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:31,920 part of it has to do with the consolidation in the industry so increasingly throughout 181 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:42,480 the you know late 20th century there was a consolidation of you know slaughterhouse 182 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:51,540 facilities were being bought up by large companies so increasingly it was you know has become 183 00:20:51,540 --> 00:21:00,280 an industry run by a handful of companies for the most part so it really it gave those 184 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:07,160 industry it gave those companies enhanced power and it made lobbying that much easier 185 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:15,560 right because you had fewer people at the table and so it has it has certainly made 186 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:23,800 you know the animal agriculture animal slaughtering and processing you know one of the largest 187 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:33,240 lobbying groups in a number of countries and I and that lobbying I think as we're seeing 188 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:42,400 more more concerns being raised you know the the law it seems like the lobbying has amplified 189 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:50,080 as well right historically you know there there wasn't that much to be concerned about 190 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:58,880 I suppose from animal groups but now especially you know one of your guests on an earlier 191 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:05,080 episode was talking about social media and social media has had a significant role I 192 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:11,800 think because now you know you don't need to rely on news media to show videos undercover 193 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:17,800 videos and slaughterhouses or animal agriculture more generally right someone can just post 194 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,920 it on social media and all of a sudden you have you know thousands if not millions of 195 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:35,040 people seeing that video and and that certainly has an impact so I have you know I've noticed 196 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:43,720 and a number of other academics have spoken about the the increased defensiveness among 197 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:50,440 the among the industry because it's it seems like these these efforts are having an impact 198 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:56,680 if they weren't there would be no need to have add gad laws and yet they you know different 199 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:04,800 jurisdictions you know have have been implementing them in recent years that's I guess a kind 200 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:14,720 of silver lining you know it's a it's a positive spin to their efforts of you know closing 201 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:23,600 down the discourse around what they're doing they feel threatened yes they it they certainly 202 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:37,400 they certainly do and it's and it's also industries around them as well like now it with you know 203 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:43,360 transport companies that transport animals to slaughter increasingly they're they're 204 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:51,040 concerned about you know activists showing up at slaughterhouses as you know vigils and 205 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:57,400 we had an interesting legal case here in in Ontario where an activist was charged criminally 206 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:05,880 for giving water to a pig on the way to slaughter you know it it I think it could be argued 207 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,680 that in the past that wouldn't have happened because that activists wouldn't have been 208 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:19,000 seen as as a threat right and inconvenience maybe but but not a threat that warranted 209 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:27,040 calling the police and and having charges laid and you talked about the mechanization 210 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:37,160 aspect and I guess you know we think about science and innovation as a way to maybe free 211 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:48,280 ourselves from this industry and have lab-grown meat and things like that in the future but 212 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:58,560 but maybe they're also thinking you know big slaughterhouses we can maybe go further with 213 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:04,920 that mechanization process maybe we can get rid ourselves from the workers entirely and 214 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:13,720 have you know automated entirely automated slaughterhouses is that science fiction or 215 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:23,440 have you read or heard about plans of doing that well I can't speak to whether or not 216 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:32,080 there are specific plans of doing that but you can see the trend over time of fewer workers 217 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:38,480 and that's one of the reasons that the the labor power of workers in the industry has 218 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:47,040 weakened historically in a number of countries you know slaughterhouse work was relatively 219 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:55,820 well paid but then you know as we see this consolidation of ownership over animal slaughtering 220 00:25:55,820 --> 00:26:06,200 we see a you know a declining number of workers and a declining power of of their labor and 221 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:14,600 unionization so I can say that there there has been that certainly that trend over over 222 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:21,480 time and of course you know as as we see further developments technologically perhaps that 223 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:30,040 will you know that will continue another question I have and you know maybe you have the answer 224 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:41,080 maybe not but something I I often think about is the executives of those slaughterhouses 225 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:47,960 I feel like those people are in an office and they don't really leave the office for 226 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:56,580 them you know all of those animals and workers and all of what we were talking about those 227 00:26:56,580 --> 00:27:03,280 are just numbers on the spreadsheet what do you think of them you know because we we often 228 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:10,720 put you know focus on the manual workers who are in in the slaughterhouse itself but what 229 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:20,120 about those who witness the the impact of the slaughterhouse from a you know close standpoint 230 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:26,640 you know closer than activists and you know they're aware of what's happening but they 231 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,680 don't do anything about it do you have some thoughts about those people well I suppose 232 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:40,240 like any business you know where there were their profits to be made you know it it can 233 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:49,240 facilitate kind of looking in the other direction and not critically examining what you know 234 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:57,680 what you're the type of work that you're doing and I think this is this is one area where 235 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:06,740 you really see the the intersections of you know animal welfare human welfare environmental 236 00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:15,960 welfare they they clearly intersect right no one no one wins from this industry except 237 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:25,560 for you know stockholders and you know the executives perhaps but it is it's an area 238 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:38,880 where the that's one reason why I I don't like when people kind of you know try to scapegoat 239 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:45,920 the individual workers right like or or denigrate them and it's tied this has happened historically 240 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:54,000 right where you know in the 18th century people were you know denigrating slaughterers because 241 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,600 they didn't want to be associated with them etc because they felt that there was there 242 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:06,840 was something problematic about that type of work the reality is you know individuals 243 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:13,640 need work and this is an area where there are jobs because the turnover is is so high 244 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:20,360 in some companies it's as high as 100 per year entirely new workforce right so it's 245 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:28,880 not it's not the individual workers in the facilities that you know are the are the so 246 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:35,600 called enemy and so that's you know that's one thing that I think would it would help 247 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:45,160 if if people paid attention to these interconnections right that it's it's not just about animal 248 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:51,080 welfare it's about you know the welfare of the workers the welfare of people who live 249 00:29:51,080 --> 00:30:00,720 in the community around the facilities so that I think the more that we we help spread 250 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:07,480 that knowledge I think that can be quite quite helpful so that people realize because let's 251 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:13,200 face it some people aren't motivated by the animal welfare arguments right I've been you 252 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:20,000 know trying to I've been voicing those arguments for decades now those arguments don't seem 253 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,920 to be the convincing arguments unfortunately it tends to be the arguments where you can 254 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:31,040 say look here's something that's connected with you know animal concerns but also human 255 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,640 concerns also environmental concerns that you know are going to negatively impact humans 256 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:45,800 we're a very self-centered species so the the more that we can point to human impacts 257 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:55,280 I think that's strategically helpful but also for the workers caught up in the system you 258 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:02,480 know I think it's it's helpful as well to kind of try to give voice to their experiences 259 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,960 and and see the connections between workers rights and animal rights. 260 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,560 One last question about the business model. 261 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:20,640 You're a criminologist do you think that the kind of you know people who work as executives, 262 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:28,520 managers of those slaughterhouses and even maybe the manual workers do you think many 263 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:36,320 of them are have anti-social personality that this kind of business attracts people who 264 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,140 have a anti-social personality? 265 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:46,800 I don't know and it's an area it's a question I get asked a lot and I think it's an area 266 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:53,760 where we need further research because you know we can based on the research that we 267 00:31:53,760 --> 00:32:01,080 have right now we can only kind of speculate but we really do need further research to 268 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:07,160 kind of see okay if empirically there is a relationship between slaughterhouse employment 269 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:16,240 levels and crime in in communities why is that the case and kind of focus in on those 270 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,920 potential relationships. 271 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:27,080 Now the problem is it's hard to get you know funding to conduct research like that right 272 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:35,580 it's not like the industry is going to fund that for obvious reasons right so it's definitely 273 00:32:35,580 --> 00:32:43,060 a challenge but it's an area where we definitely need more research to see okay what's going 274 00:32:43,060 --> 00:32:52,320 on here with you know employment and based on anecdotal evidence you know from workers 275 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:59,800 that I've spoken with and that other academics you know have have quoted in their own work 276 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:08,760 this it's very different the the hands-on you know disassembly line work is very challenging 277 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:18,320 physically emotionally and you know it's probably one of the reasons that the turnover rate 278 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:26,340 in the industry tends to be so high but of course then the the turnover rate exacerbates 279 00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:33,780 the underlying problems right because then you have workers who are you know they haven't 280 00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:39,480 been there long so they're not as well trained as in other industries which can contribute 281 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:47,840 to you know injuries can contribute to animal welfare issues because you're you don't have 282 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:54,720 people who have been in these jobs for a long period of time so it's you know it's just 283 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:02,160 a very long-winded way of saying that we need I can't I can't draw any conclusions about 284 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:10,620 your question because we really do need more research but it's not a definitive no right 285 00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:19,760 yeah I I can't say that it's you know it's definitely off the table but I can't you know 286 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:28,240 empirically confirm it either okay let's now talk about the impact of slaughterhouses on 287 00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:36,160 their workers but also the community at large and we touched on that of course and I want 288 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:46,180 to start with something a past guest had told me you know she she she told me about Syrian 289 00:34:46,180 --> 00:34:53,860 refugees who came to Canada and how the government pushed them into slaughterhouse jobs and she 290 00:34:53,860 --> 00:35:01,560 expressed how horrifying that was you know taking refugees from war zones and then pushing 291 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:10,760 them into slaughterhouses but then I you know posted that you know clip of her saying that 292 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:19,480 and to my surprise many people commented you know how dare they complained you know about 293 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:25,000 this you know we're we're welcoming them into the country and we're offering them a good 294 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:34,480 job why is this cruel so I'm asking you the question why is it cruel to send you know Syrian 295 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,960 refugees to slaughterhouses for for work 296 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:47,840 well as I mentioned it's objectively based on you know reports it's among the the highest 297 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:54,780 injury and illness rates the turnover as I said is is really high so it's not like you're 298 00:35:54,780 --> 00:36:02,800 setting them up in a career that's going to be you know a great stable safe career right 299 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:10,680 the reality is the industry not just in Canada and other countries needs workers and this 300 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:22,560 is how it you know populates the workforce in some in some places in addition to refugees 301 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:29,240 there are also programs in some countries where incarcerated individuals are used in 302 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:39,040 slaughterhouses which also raises a number of you know issues take even if you take out 303 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,560 the animal component entirely objectively speaking when you're talking about high injury 304 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:51,840 and illness rates you know it's it's probably not a good thing to put you know vulnerable 305 00:36:51,840 --> 00:37:00,360 people in because it's going to be hard for them to speak against power right so if they 306 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,240 see something it's going to be hard for them to say something because they have relatively 307 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:14,880 little power and are concerned about keeping their employment so it's it's definitely an 308 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:24,120 area where I think we need more we need more education to explain you know to the Canadian 309 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:32,920 government other governments that there are some problems here and as I've been you know 310 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,400 mentioning the industry is unique you can't just assume it's going to be like putting 311 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,140 someone in an automotive manufacturing plant right a different manufacturing they're they're 312 00:37:44,140 --> 00:37:51,200 different and they needed they need to be treated differently and I'll give you an example 313 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:58,960 so the the Canadian government correction services Canada closed down we used to have 314 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:08,980 six penitentiary firms they closed them down and then decided a different government decided 315 00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:17,000 you know approximately 10 years later that they were going to reopen the farms and the 316 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:26,640 proposal that they put forth was an industrial scale goat dairy where incarcerated individuals 317 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:36,880 would be working and it's and in the the messaging about it there's this conflation of well 318 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:43,120 you know animal assisted therapy is good it's you know been proven to have positive impacts 319 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:49,400 but they they don't critically reflect upon the fact that this is not animal assisted 320 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:58,960 therapy it's very it's a very different context working in a an industrial animal agriculture 321 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:06,840 facility whether it's on the you know raising animals or killing and processing animals 322 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:13,600 it's not animal therapy it's intentionally set up in a way so that people don't form 323 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:19,520 relationships with those animals because that would be problematic to the system right so 324 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:26,880 there's no therapeutic relationship going on there but in the messaging about these 325 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:32,440 programs it's like you know they they don't they don't pay attention to that they don't 326 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,660 address it it's like we'll just throw animals in and stir and then we're going to have these 327 00:39:37,660 --> 00:39:46,720 therapeutic benefits and so i've you know i've been arguing against that proposal it's 328 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:53,340 as of right now it's been tabled but we'll see what happens with it because there there 329 00:39:53,340 --> 00:40:00,400 aren't therapeutic benefits and you know as i've been saying it's it's not an industry 330 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:08,480 where you're going to have you know it where it's going to be an easy job and i mean easy 331 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:17,680 in the sense of you know free of injury illness and it's also increasingly not an area where 332 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:26,380 there's you know a lot of careers being you know set up where you can go into it and then 333 00:40:26,380 --> 00:40:31,600 you know you're you're set in a career for life so instead you know programs that help 334 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:38,840 provide meaningful certifications where people can use those certifications whether they're 335 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:46,080 coming out of an incarceration situation or they're coming into the country as a refugee 336 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:53,680 set them up with meaningful work that's going to lead to a meaningful career not you know 337 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,960 a job in an industry where the turnover rate is so high you know they're they're not going 338 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:07,580 to be there long it's it's not a it's not a stable working environment i'm thinking 339 00:41:07,580 --> 00:41:15,320 of what kind of response they would give to your answer and i guess they could say let's 340 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:27,080 just create trainings you know training sessions more training sessions or revisit our training 341 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:37,880 sessions and let's give our workers more you know protective tools and so i guess my question 342 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:46,600 is is this industry will this industry always harm its workers is it you know fundamentally 343 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:55,160 flawed this way or is there a way to improve the life of those workers there is a way to 344 00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:03,000 improve the life of the workers but it would take money which would cut into profits and 345 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:09,360 but i think a lot of people don't realize is that the industry works on a very thin 346 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:21,680 profit line per animal so it it relies on scale so we need they need to have more animals 347 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:28,720 in order to make more profit right otherwise they would have to increase the price that 348 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:33,480 they're charging for their products and that's something as you know we see in the current 349 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:40,040 inflationary you know period that we're in in a number of countries that people are very 350 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:48,040 resistant to a lot of people you know don't want to pay more for animal products a lot 351 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:55,840 of people can't pay more for animal products yet they you know they believe that that's 352 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:04,400 the only way that they can you know exist you know their diet needs to have animals 353 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:13,520 as you know as part of it and so there's there's a real resistance to the industry increasing 354 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:22,320 pricing which would be required i think to to provide the workers with with what they 355 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:29,720 with what they would need for an ideal situation and even to to enhance animal welfare i mean 356 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:34,920 i know there you know we we don't have time to get into this huge debate between you know 357 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:42,720 animal welfare approaches versus you know animal liberation approaches but there are 358 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:47,800 definitely things that could be done in the industry that would enhance animal welfare 359 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:53,120 but they would take time slowing down the you know the disassembly line would improve 360 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:59,080 animal welfare it would improve worker welfare you know some would argue it would it would 361 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:07,600 improve the safety of the the food that's produced in these facilities but it would 362 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:15,160 it would eat into eat into profits so you know there probably aren't a lot of people 363 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:22,120 listening to a podcast focused on veganism who aren't vegan but there you know there 364 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:30,040 might be some and what i would urge those listeners to do is to think about whether 365 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:42,680 or not you want to provide the industry with money knowing what you now know right that 366 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,520 it's not there aren't just you know human there aren't just animal impacts there are 367 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:55,400 human impacts as well and i think we need to we need to think about those and keep them 368 00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:01,720 front of mind and also you know as as i tell my students and i realize it's it's rare when 369 00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:06,520 i teach a class where there's more than like one or two you know students who identify 370 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:14,640 as vegan but i tell them you know even if you're not vegan you should be concerned 371 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:23,000 about an industry that you're buying products from that is doing everything it can to keep 372 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:30,200 keep consumers keep the public out of of that industry you know out of seeing what's going 373 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:37,200 on that has you know such a vested interest in making sure that there is no transparency 374 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:43,960 you know that supports ad-gag laws because they're afraid of what's going to be reported 375 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:50,040 i think anyone you know vegan non-vegan alike should be concerned about that 376 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,640 LR Another point i want to bring up is the public 377 00:45:54,640 --> 00:46:01,960 health aspect of it there are a lot of vegans out there who make the health argument for 378 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:08,680 veganism but it's always you know an individualistic you know argument you know from a me perspective 379 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:15,080 you know your diet will improve and your health will improve but i don't hear much you know 380 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:24,000 talks about the public health argument around veganism so why are slaughterhouses dangerous 381 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,360 for public health? 382 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:38,240 LR Well the industry as a whole has a number of associated problems or externalities with 383 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:45,800 it that you know have been documented in the literature and one of the one of the main 384 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,720 reasons is because of and it's again something a lot of people don't want to talk about but 385 00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:55,880 it's the amount of manure that's produced. 386 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:03,800 Manure is really problematic because it has you know high levels of nitrogen and phosphorus 387 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:12,000 in it which can then cause problems when it gets into the you know the water you know 388 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:18,280 there are manure lagoons that can be created but of course they're not perfect if there's 389 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:24,520 a natural disaster so for instance hurricanes you know if you just google hurricane and 390 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:32,960 manure lagoon you'll see all sorts of pictures of you know manure lagoons being breached 391 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:40,400 from flood waters and things like that so there are a number of you know a number of 392 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:47,520 public health related concerns around where they're located which is why there's you 393 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:54,320 know as there's increasing awareness about this there's increasing resistance among communities 394 00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:04,480 who don't want them to set up shop in their communities so for instance there was a community 395 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:11,720 in Montana that invited me Great Falls Montana that invited me to give a talk prior to a 396 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:18,320 screening of a documentary and there were a number of people who were there to share 397 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:25,160 their thoughts and one thing that I thought was really cool about that event was that 398 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,680 they were bringing in a variety of people to talk about the problems of this from a 399 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,880 number of angles right so there were people there who were speaking to the environmental 400 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:40,600 impacts people who were speaking to the social community impacts people speaking about the 401 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:46,840 animal welfare impacts so you could really you could really see the connections and I 402 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:54,240 think that that that helped to kind of give a full picture so you know and public health 403 00:48:54,240 --> 00:49:03,720 is is part of that there's research that shows that property values around these facilities 404 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:10,560 drop dramatically so for those who you know don't necessarily care about the environment 405 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:17,400 animals other people you know sometimes they're swayed by their their own property values 406 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:25,640 taking a dive as a result and there are also studies that have documented you know the 407 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,960 public health impacts for the workers right increased risk of all sorts of respiratory 408 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:40,840 illnesses zoonotic illnesses right COVID-19 kind of shined a light on the on the industry 409 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:48,720 as far as you know the the transmission of COVID-19 between the workers was so was so 410 00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:57,560 high and there are studies that you know have shown that individuals who work in animal 411 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:04,320 facilities are at greater risk of contracting zoonotic illnesses and you know and also then 412 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:11,680 transmitting them to their families so you can see you know the public health impacts 413 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:20,120 there there are many potential impacts and and like I said they're they're well documented 414 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:27,240 in the literature you know scientists have been have been documenting them for a few 415 00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:35,320 decades now and so it's you know you can just look to the literature and find all of these 416 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:43,720 documented studies that show that the the risks increase with these types of organizations 417 00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:50,600 I want to now get to the activism part and how to fight this because you're making you 418 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:58,400 know such great points I mean every argument points to every piece of information and study 419 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:05,320 we have points to you know this is a bad idea this is not a smart idea we should abolish 420 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:13,720 those institutions and then you have activism work around it first of all would you you 421 00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:21,320 know rate the efficiency we talked about you know how social media has helped you know 422 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:27,680 putting the pressure on on them and making them feel threatened but then you have you 423 00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:35,600 know people breaking in doing you know sit in inside you have you know the animal liberation 424 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:43,840 front who enters those places and liberate animals so you have all kinds of activism 425 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:49,580 around slaughterhouses do you have an idea of which ones are the most efficient in terms 426 00:51:49,580 --> 00:51:57,660 of making an impact and getting us near the goal of abolishing those institutions I give 427 00:51:57,660 --> 00:52:08,160 it my thoughts are I think the most effective are those where we can kind of form coalitions 428 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:17,100 around the issues so you know joining forces with environmentally focused organizations 429 00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:22,200 and individuals and knowing okay there are going to be some differences right you're 430 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:29,640 not going to be dealing with a group that's you know entirely vegan or you know same thing 431 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:37,960 with workers rights groups but I think forming those coalitions is helpful because sometimes 432 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:49,760 I think it's it's easy to for the general public to kind of look away from animal focused 433 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:57,280 messaging right because for all the reasons we've been talking about people don't want 434 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:06,000 to think about where their meat comes from where their dairy comes from their eggs etc. 435 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:12,680 And so it's easy for them to shut down but if you're making a broader argument around 436 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:21,960 not just the animals but also you know human rights environmental justice I think then 437 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:34,140 you can you know the effect of the message might spread a little more widely and I like 438 00:53:34,140 --> 00:53:42,020 what one of your previous guests Robert Cheek had to say about you know you it's really 439 00:53:42,020 --> 00:53:49,360 hard to bring people over to your side if you're you know calling them names and telling 440 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:58,400 them how horrible they are but it helps if you can you know show people these connections 441 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:06,640 and you know convince people that even if you don't care about the animal issues they're 442 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:13,360 interconnected with so many other issues and concerns you know and hit them where they 443 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:20,600 live and that's their own personal well-being for you know for many people and you know 444 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:31,400 point to all of these all of the implications of this industry and also I think it helps 445 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:38,960 to put it into historical context and show people like this is this is historically speaking 446 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:44,840 relatively new development it's not like we're stuck with it right it's not like it's you 447 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:53,400 know part of our you know it's not etched into our DNA or something right it's a relatively 448 00:54:53,400 --> 00:55:04,120 new social institution and it can it can be changed it just takes people you know being 449 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:12,320 willing to to mobilize and you know and work with other people and I think that's that 450 00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:19,800 helps to you know get the the message out and also fighting as hard as possible against 451 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:30,440 these you know legislative aims and strategies to you know prevent the public from gaining 452 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:37,880 information about what's going on you know I think people should have the right to know 453 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:45,540 how their food is being produced and I don't think there's anything all that controversial 454 00:55:45,540 --> 00:55:56,600 in that statement right and so I think conveying that to people might help to kind of make 455 00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:07,280 them think okay yeah that's that's a fair point and I also I think it can help sometimes 456 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:17,640 to to put yourself in a position where you can be a model for other people and say okay 457 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:23,460 you know I was once in the position that you were I didn't know what was going on but now 458 00:56:23,460 --> 00:56:32,480 I do and here's how I live my life as a result and I think that's important and and to be 459 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:38,680 honest with you it's something I didn't used to do as much as I do now and it occurred 460 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:45,880 to me one day I was teaching a class and it was corporate and governmental crime class 461 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,960 and we were talking about you know a number of different industries and we were talking 462 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:56,680 about the animal agriculture industry and at one point one of my students raised his 463 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:02,680 hands and said but what's the solution it's not like we can all be vegan we would die 464 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:10,160 and he really thought that right and so at that moment I realized okay I need I need 465 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:17,080 to start telling my students that I'm vegan because otherwise they really do believe these 466 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:24,360 things right and some of that is you know sponsored by the industry itself right tell 467 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:30,480 people that they're going to die from protein deficiencies or you know that they need meat 468 00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:36,520 to to survive and so I think sometimes it can help to put yourself out there and say 469 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:44,880 okay look this is you know this is totally feasible for you for you to do but you know 470 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:55,440 my caveat to that is be ready for people to try to discredit what you're saying because 471 00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,700 you're taking that position because you're vegan even if you're speaking about something 472 00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:07,800 that's totally unrelated and I've had that happen I actually just had an instance of 473 00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:15,440 it a couple months ago where I had to appear as an expert witness in a court case and it 474 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:22,840 was totally unrelated to food and one of the first things during cross-examination that 475 00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:29,600 was raised was you know Dr. Fitzgerald would you agree that eating meat is wrong and I 476 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:37,000 thought and I answered it honestly but I thought the question has nothing to do with the case 477 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,680 but the reason it was raised was to try to do this credit everything else that I was 478 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:50,400 saying so I think the more that people you know put themselves out there and identify 479 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:57,000 you know as healthy vegans I think that you know can help but like I said just be ready 480 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:03,880 because you will have people who will challenge everything you have to say because you've 481 00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:11,280 made that position clear but what about the mental health aspect of it because you know 482 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:19,560 you're studying this and it's a dark topic you know and I guess it has its effects on 483 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:26,160 your mental health I mean just thinking about slaughterhouses I often wonder is it my moral 484 00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:34,840 obligation to you know do something like animal liberation front activists do and just go 485 00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:41,960 there you know it's a hour drive from where I live and try to you know save an animal 486 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:50,760 you know is it not you know my moral obligation and then you have you know the mental charge 487 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:59,080 of having you know just yesterday there was a birthday thing with work and they had some 488 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:07,080 cake and the cake was not vegan so I just you know took a cup of coffee and I was holding 489 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:13,520 the cup of coffee and everyone was eating the cake I was thinking yeah there is a mental 490 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:21,560 charge there's a cost to identifying as vegan and moving in society and then of course I 491 01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:32,560 had you know a barrage of questions from co-workers about my veganism so what do you make of the 492 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:39,200 mental health aspect of it you know because we want to be strategic we want to be rational 493 01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:46,560 in our activism but at the same time we have all of those feelings so yeah. 494 01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:55,920 That's a really good question and I will say as someone who's a long time vegan it has 495 01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:04,720 gotten easier and I think because we're seeing real social change you know so part of the 496 01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:09,520 reason it's gotten easier is probably just you know I take it for granted now and that's 497 01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:17,860 just how I live my life but I think we're seeing real social change around us so now 498 01:01:17,860 --> 01:01:27,200 you know people will ask questions and I think they're you know they're genuine well-meaning 499 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:34,680 questions like you know why are you vegan how'd you become vegan and so you know I like 500 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:42,720 to use that opportunity to help explain to people you know as delicately as possible 501 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:53,040 sometimes depending on the circumstance but yeah I mean there are you know mental health 502 01:01:53,040 --> 01:02:00,840 aspects of it too I suppose right living your life in a way that is so counter to the norm 503 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:07,240 and I'd be lying if I said it you know it isn't frustrating at times you know when people 504 01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:15,440 are you know offering you money to if you'll eat a burger you know I'll give you $2,000 505 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:25,720 you know things like that so it it can be challenging but it it is I am seeing I am 506 01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:35,160 seeing that it's improving right that there's there's less view of it as being you know 507 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:42,320 problematic or unhealthy right when I when I first started my vegan journey you know 508 01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:49,000 countless people would tell me how unhealthy I was going to be etc and now I I don't have 509 01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,920 people saying that I have people asking me questions because now they're concerned about 510 01:02:52,920 --> 01:03:00,200 their own health right so how you know how do you do it do you have any suggestions because 511 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:08,920 you know my doctors told me I need to I need to make some real changes so it it has it 512 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:16,680 has improved but like I said there's definitely a toll to be paid knowing that you will have 513 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:25,840 you know what you say question because because you are a vegan and that you know that frustrates 514 01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:32,520 me it's always frustrated me and it will no doubt always frustrate me. 515 01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:41,280 A last question many people use the Holocaust comparison you know to talk about slaughterhouses 516 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:50,600 for some you know it is offensive but let me ask you is it accurate and should we use 517 01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,680 it for activism work? 518 01:03:53,680 --> 01:04:02,240 There are there are a number of you know activists organizations and and even even you know some 519 01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:12,080 of my fellow academics that point to you know other horrible events in human history where 520 01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:23,680 people have been enslaved and you know killed and you know in large numbers and I think 521 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:32,520 there's I don't see that there's a whole lot to be gained from those comparisons. 522 01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:44,760 I think that each each is unique in its own ways and I you know I and especially given 523 01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:53,160 what I think are such the importance of paying attention to the ways that animal well-being 524 01:04:53,160 --> 01:05:00,600 human well-being environmental well-being are all interconnected I don't think that 525 01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:06,400 we need to point to other examples and say okay you know this is bad because that was 526 01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:15,960 bad we know this is this is bad and I think we can we can make that case without pointing 527 01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:22,520 to to other examples to try and make the case for us. 528 01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:29,440 Another question I had was about the perspective on this issue and how future generations will 529 01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:40,480 think of slaughterhouses hopefully you know in a century maybe you know less years slaughterhouses 530 01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:46,400 will be will have you know disappeared but then we'll have the memory of what happened 531 01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:55,080 what had occurred and the billions of creatures that were killed. 532 01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,800 What do we make of that? 533 01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:04,080 How do we you know how are we going to be remembered and what do we make of all that 534 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:06,640 loss? 535 01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:18,400 It's hard and I think you know one of the ways that I think we can do it is to work 536 01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:26,080 actively against forgetting right and to work against you know currently like it like I've 537 01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:34,200 been saying you know work for more transparency and if hopefully one day you know there's 538 01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:47,000 people are no longer killing animals for consumption then you know it working to not forget what 539 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:52,600 what was done because you know you know the saying goes you either you know learn history 540 01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:57,440 or you're doomed to repeat it so I think it's you know it's critical that we don't lose 541 01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:09,200 sight of it and I know even with my I have a nine-year-old son who doesn't eat meat but 542 01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:17,760 you know I have talks with him about meat consumption and you know what it means and 543 01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:24,240 you know those are hard talks because he genuinely you know loves animals and the thought that 544 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:32,240 other people are eating animals is you know hard to wrap his brain around but I think 545 01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:38,760 it's important so that you know so that he knows and then you know he can explain it 546 01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:46,520 to other people which might not make him the most popular kid on the playground but you 547 01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:53,920 know it's it's important that we confront it and you know not lose not lose sight of 548 01:07:53,920 --> 01:08:02,200 it and like I said and not you know and also pay attention to the ways that we've we've 549 01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:09,120 harmed ourselves in doing it this way too I think that's a very important lesson as 550 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:10,120 well. 551 01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:19,800 So, Amy, did you have anything more to add to the conversation before we stop the recording? 552 01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:28,000 I can't think of anything else you know that was a good questions that kind of ran the 553 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:36,320 full the full gamut of everything yeah I can't think of anything else. 554 01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:41,840 Well that's a good sign. 555 01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:46,160 I'm getting better at interviewing my guests. 556 01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:52,800 Yeah it's definitely you know a skill that you know that you have you have to cultivate 557 01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:58,360 it's a challenge I know even in my own research when I'm interviewing participants the first 558 01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:04,760 few interviews are kind of rough and then I hit my stride and it you know it gets better. 559 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:10,280 I need I need your tips for you know future interviews. 560 01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:16,160 I think practice makes if not perfection then then close to it. 561 01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,560 Well I have hours of practice now. 562 01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:25,800 Yeah well and I've been enjoying your your podcast it's it's nice to have you know the 563 01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:31,420 the focused vegan attention and you know and the guests that you have on sometimes they're 564 01:09:31,420 --> 01:09:37,640 areas where you know I haven't really given much thought to and you know it's it's it's 565 01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,360 nice to kind of think outside my narrow little little box. 566 01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:46,000 Well thank you so much for saying that you know I don't agree with all of my guests you 567 01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:50,520 know but still it is interesting to hear their views. 568 01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:56,880 Yeah definitely and it's you know it's helpful because then I think your listeners you know 569 01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:02,000 it might help because they might not identify with one perspective but you know someone 570 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:08,000 else's perspective might be similar to their own and that might be what clicks for them. 571 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:13,000 And maybe with time you know I'll think about past conversations with guests and change 572 01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,560 my mind you know. 573 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:15,680 Yeah yeah. 574 01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:23,000 Amazing so Amy thank you so much for having taken the time to answer my questions for 575 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:30,200 having been a guest on the show for your great knowledge and scholarship is it you know is 576 01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:34,480 it only money or can we say scholarship. 577 01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:38,800 Yeah thank you I appreciate that and thanks again for the invitation. 578 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:43,520 Thank you everyone for listening I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the 579 01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:45,000 vegans you know. 580 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,880 Let's encourage more people to take action. 581 01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:54,040 And thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.