Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to the vegan report.
Today, I invite you to travel to Lebanon, in the heart of the Middle East, and get inspired
by the success story of Lebanese Vegans, a non-profit dedicated to advancing the cause
of animal rights in the Arab world.
To discuss this topic, I have with me Georges Hayek, the founder of Lebanese Vegans and
the man behind the first vegan hospital ever, the Hayek Hospital, located in Beirut.
Georges, thank you so much for being on the show.
Thank you for having me, Ryan.
Amazing.
So, my first question for you is, how would you describe Lebanon to someone who knows
nothing about the country?
Well, Lebanon is a small country located in the Middle East, in the heart of the Middle
East.
We are a country that has a lot of religion as well.
We live in a community where you have, of course, Christians, but not also Christians.
We have Muslims and other religions.
So, we like a small sample of what coexistence should be.
We try to coexist as much as possible, but we should give a good image to the world that
we are all humans, and Lebanon is an example of how people can coexist with their differences.
We have some good food as well.
Lebanese food is renowned worldwide to be having one of the best Meza.
So, now we're going to be talking about how Lebanese food is more than 80% naturally
born vegan food by default.
And yeah, we're open to the West, we're open to the world.
We're a small country that relies mainly on the support of bigger countries as well.
So, having good relationships with our neighbors is essential, although it's not always the
case.
But yeah, we're hoping for the best and we're hoping for peace worldwide.
And you also have amazing weather.
So let's dream a little.
What are the top tourist attractions in Lebanon?
Well, of course, we have the sea, the Mediterranean Sea, which happens to be not very far from
if you want to visit mountains as well.
And as I mentioned before, we are a small country.
We have the luxury to be turning Lebanon in one full day, we can do that.
So we can go have lunch at the beach and at night go to the mountains and have dinner
there.
So it's quite a cozy place, let's say, that offers a lot of facilities.
We have a lot as well of heritage.
You know, our origin is Spanish.
So we have the Bibleos where the alphabet started from there.
So Lebanon is quite rich in its heritage, in its history as well.
A lot of trademarks.
I encourage a lot of people to come and visit.
We have Baalbak, Baalbak is renowned as well internationally.
So a lot of important historical places are to be visited.
So it's a quite rich country, culturally wise.
I was sold at vegan food.
So a key question to this podcast might be how are animals treated and perceived by Lebanese
people?
Sure.
Listen, Ryan, I think that the problem resides not just in Lebanon, but worldwide.
Of course, now there are some countries that are more animal welfareists than others.
But when it comes to animal rights, all of us are very far behind.
So regarding animal welfare, we have some few organizations that take care about cats
and dogs, basically pets, but they brand themselves as animal organizations, whereas they only
focus on few cats and dogs and few horses, which I am completely against because it gives
the impression that all other animals are OK to abuse and to kill and to eat.
Well, the community is being educated as much as possible with Lebanese Veganism Organization
that I created years ago and others as well.
We try as much as possible to expose the horrors about animal agriculture, especially regarding
the ethical aspect of it, because we're vegan for ethics.
And it's all about ethics.
Of course, now you have advantages of going vegan, relating the environment and our health,
but mainly it's for ethics.
So yeah, we try as much as possible in Lebanon, especially that here the mentality is quite
like, I mean, mainly in a way that, you know, you should be eating some kind of meat to
be man or something of the sort, which is completely wrong, of course, especially like
in the mountains, they still eat sometimes some raw meat with some spices, you know.
So yeah, the more the more we go away from the capital, Beirut, the more the idea of
animal rights and veganism becomes blurry, you know.
But yeah, as much as possible, we try to raise awareness and we're on it.
You talked about how Lebanon is located in the Middle East.
And I'm wondering, you know, is the situation in terms of animal welfare, the way we treat
animals, animal rights comparable to Lebanon in other Arab countries?
We can say that we can say that we can compare ourselves regarding how we treat animals with
other Arabic countries.
I can tell you that, like the standards are pretty low, especially when it comes to farmed
animals.
You know, we're not talking about pet animals because pet animals are very well treated
over here, they are very well respected.
But yeah, it stops there.
The animal welfare and I mean, the way animals are treated before having their throat slit
is not great.
Not here in Lebanon, not in the Arab world as well.
Especially that if we venture into the Muslim countries, they do use the halal standard,
which some might consider it like quite violent, others presume that the animal will feel no
pain, especially religious people.
Anyway, what concerning vegans and myself, I truly believe that there is no way to do
the wrong thing in a good way.
So yeah, we are still behind this.
But like myself and the organization that I created, we do not focus on welcarism as
much as we talk about animal rights.
We do not believe that doing something wrong in a good way can be beneficial for any party
that is.
So we stick to animal rights, we stick the message of Lebanon's vegans is quite raw and
in your face.
We are there to defend the victim on behalf of the victim.
We're not here to be like, as I always mentioned, we are not here to make friends, we are not
here to gain some popularity.
We are here to derange the status quo, to shake the status quo, to make people feel
uncomfortable because personally, I truly believe that changes come when you shake the
comfort zone of someone.
No one will ever change if he's sitting in his couch comfortably and listening to someone
who says that it might be an injustice, but you know what, you can take it slowly, baby
steps and slowly, don't know.
Our message is quite, it's a queer cut message.
It's either black or white.
I want to dig deeper into the situation of how we treat animals in the Arab world to
truly make a distinction with the Western world maybe.
I think that many Arab people have this proximity with slaughter and animals that Westerners
do not.
And what I'm thinking about is a prevalent practice in the Middle East, mostly among
Muslim Arabs to sacrifice a sheep every year.
Al-Hayyid.
Yes, Al-Hayyid.
And that is something that most families participate in and members of that family will slaughter
themselves with a knife, the sheep, which is completely alien to Western people.
I think we often hear in the West, among vegan activists, if you had to slaughter the animal
yourself, you would not eat it.
Probably you might still eat the animal.
So would you like to comment on that issue?
Of course, as you mentioned, maybe the disconnect over here in this part of the world is less
than the disconnect that you guys are living in the other parts of the world for the specific
reason that you just mentioned and others as well.
Yeah, the idea of using animals for food or for any other purpose that is still acceptable
and accepted over here, especially as I mentioned in the mountains far from the capital, Beirut.
Now the capital, Beirut, the thing that you mentioned in the slaughtering of the sheep
on the street, it's happening still, unfortunately, but much less than what it used to.
So we can really feel that people are starting to like having some kind of an issue regarding
slaughtering animals on the streets.
Although I truly believe that people should see at least what they are paying for and
then if they're okay, well, it's their problem.
I mean, it only reflects the person that they are, if they're okay with that or not.
But yeah, I believe that people should at least not hold the knife or do it themselves
because no one would do that, but at least have the courage to whenever Lebanese vegans
post a video of a slaughterhouse or any other account that is, they should have the courage
to at least face it.
And then, well, if what they see doesn't reflect the person that they are, they should have
a moral stand.
And if not, if what they see, they are completely okay with it, well, I truly encourage everyone
to stop trying to convince those people because those people are extremely very far from the
vegan message.
And unfortunately, well, you can try for ages and you can never succeed.
What will happen is that you will drain your efforts, yourself, your energy, and you will
be wasting your time.
So what I truly like, encourage everyone, especially vegan activists, is to spare their
energy and their efforts and their talk to someone who is willing to listen to someone
that isn't very far from the vegan message.
Let's stick to those and then maybe we'll have time to stick to others.
That's good advice.
And I want to maybe one last point to talk about the fish and how the fish are treated.
You talked about how Lebanon is on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea.
But surprisingly, you also said that most of your food was vegan, vegan-friendly, easily
adaptable to vegan ways.
So how is it?
Because I would think that a coastal country would be more into fishing like maybe Japan.
So as you mentioned, of course, Lebanon lies on the Mediterranean coast.
And the thing is, of course, that you happen to come across a lot of fish restaurants in
those specific areas where the beach is approximately.
But the thing is that, as I mentioned, our naturally born food by default is the meze.
And it's constituted of chickpeas, lentils, wine leaves.
So we can have hummus, we can have tabbouleh, we can have badila.
We can have so much dishes that are already vegan by default, even before the creation
of the word vegan.
So it's true that we do have fish restaurants because of our location, Jio location.
But it's not our main food.
The main food that we eat is the meze, is the hummus, is the tabbouleh, and so on and
so forth.
So yeah, we're not like Japan, where they do rely a lot with fishing and fish and sushi
and stuff like that.
We are still in the meze, our main food is meze.
And what about the vegan situation?
So you said veganism is more prevalent in the city.
So how prevalent is it across Lebanon, but also across the Middle East?
I would guess it's still pretty marginal.
So how many of you are you as an estimate?
And how is life as a vegan in the Middle East?
Well, listen, to be honest with you, I really don't see much of a difference, surprisingly,
between what happened over here in Lebanon regarding the subject and what happens elsewhere.
I see a lot of videos, a lot of debate.
The arguments are all the same everywhere.
It's only the language that changes.
The community, listen, the community is quite aware over here, Lebanon especially, as I
mentioned, in the capital, people are educated enough to know about veganism, to know the
meaning first of the word, because a lot of people don't know what vegan is all about.
What is vegan is all about, what are we supposed to be omitting if we ever go vegan?
What are we supposed to eat, not to eat, what to wear, not to wear?
A lot of people are aware, but unfortunately not a lot of people are ready to have the
courage to stop their convenience, because at the end of the day, it's nothing but convenience.
It has nothing to do with the culture, nothing to do with tradition, nothing to do with religion,
nothing to do with protein even, it's all about taste and convenience.
So they are used to a certain taste, they search for their convenience, although they
know that what animals go through is horrible, barbaric, well you name it.
But since everybody's doing it, they prefer to tag along and to blend into this herd society,
which knows a lot about veganism, but don't give it much of an attention.
I completely agree with you.
I met people who became vegans, I think in the 1960s and even 70s, like when there were
no vegan options, when you went grocery shopping.
And I have to admit, in all honesty, if I was born during that time, I don't know if
I would have become vegan, because it would be too inconvenient, maybe vegetarian, but
vegan, that's a whole other story.
I'm happy to have been born in an era when you have many vegan options out there.
Exactly, Ryan, you know, today especially, as you mentioned, it's more of a moral obligation
today when there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever.
Even the taste that you used to have as a non-vegan, you can still have it today.
So maybe years back you can say, listen, I don't want to stop this, I'm used to that.
Well today you have no excuse whatsoever.
Every alternative, every substitute is out there.
So if you ever want to consider vegan, you will not be missing on anything but on killing
the animals, basically.
So let's talk about the organization Lebanese Vegans.
So how did the organization start?
Well, I can start by telling you how personally I turned vegan and this led me to create Lebanese
Vegans as the NGO.
So more than 12 years ago, I was exposed on my social media feed with footage of a cow
being slaughtered in an abattoir by a friend whom I used to consider as an annoying vegan
extremist, you know.
And I was wondering why, I mean, why would he want to ruin my day and show me such horror
on my newsfeed?
I really don't need that first thing in the morning, you know.
But I don't know what happened that specific moment, I decided, you know what, let me have
a look.
So I decided to look at this video that was censored, you know, all those videos are censored
so that people, so that they hide the truth from people.
Whereas if you turn on the TV, you will not see a commercial of cow dancing being slaughtered,
baby dancing.
I mean, so they show you live, they show you a cow dancing and running and so on and so
forth, but they will never show you exactly what happened.
So by then I took the courage and witnessed this video, which completely, I mean, it hit
me so hard.
And I went back home, I have four dogs at home whom I lost so very much.
I started to gathering those dogs.
This is when I focused on their eyes and I realized that there was someone looking back
at me.
And I figured out that this cow whom I just witnessed being slaughtered, when I looked
at her eyes as well, and I saw the eyes of my dogs, I saw that there was someone behind
this cow as well who was struggling and fighting for their life.
So this is where I felt the hypocrisy of me like patting one kind of an animal and paying
someone to slit the throat of another animal so that I can enjoy the flesh of this animal
that could have been very easily my dog if we were living in another part of the world.
So yeah, I started the hypocrisy, I felt the hypocrisy in my behavior.
And this is when I started to do my own research on the matter.
First, I started as a vegetarian, like most vegans, because I didn't know better about
the dairy and the egg industry.
So I started, I cut completely animal products first, and then I heard about the word vegan.
I was like, okay, vegetarian, isn't it good enough to be vegetarian?
So let me dig more into what veganism, what it's all about.
So I figured that the cruelty towards animals didn't stop for food or for their meat, but
as well for their secretions, as well for their skin, as well for entertainment, to
entertain us, whether it's a dolphin in a small banyan, the finarium, whether it's a
lion in a zoo, or in circuses.
So yeah, I figured that the abuse of animals is not just meat related, but every use of
animal is abused.
So this is when I figured out that veganism makes perfect sense, especially for me.
I mean, I figured out that veganism wasn't something like a magical word or something
extremely difficult to do or to be.
It's no rocket science, basically.
It's very simple.
If you witness, if you see what happened at slaughterhouses, this is basically the end
result of everything we might be talking on a side note.
What happens in slaughterhouses is the end result.
So if this is what you see, the animals fighting for their lives, and the agony and the bloodshed
everywhere, if you don't mind, well, continue doing what you're doing.
If you really were deranged and what you see doesn't reflect the person that you are, you
should take a decision.
And this is what I did.
Actually, I took a moral stance towards what I witnessed, and I decided to switch from
vegetarian to veganism.
And I felt the obligation, this is going back to your question, I felt the obligation not
only to be vegan myself, but to be an outspoken vegan, an active vegan, try to convince others
to stop hurting animals unnecessarily.
So I decided to open up a small, modest Facebook and Instagram social media account, LebaneseVegans.
I didn't know that it will gain much attention and we will reach the point that we reached
today.
So yeah, it started by a simple social media account, exposing the dairy and the meat and
leather and all animal use industries in a very blunt way, which I presume are one of
the very few accounts in social media to be this blunt and this direct without pandering
or precious feelings or beating around the bush.
Because as I mentioned before, while I didn't turn vegan to make friends, I didn't turn
vegan to gain some popularity or notoriety.
Well, actually, it's just the opposite.
The moment I turned vegan, I had a lot of friends, local friends who left me.
We're no longer friends because they got annoyed by me and by my preaching in a way.
But yeah, I felt the obligation because I made the connection and not just that, I felt
that we're living in a horrible world.
That basically we're living in a one giant slaughterhouse because when we butcher more
than 80 billion land animals alone, let alone the fish, three trillion fish animals.
So yeah, I figured that we cannot talk about peace.
We cannot think about ourselves as peaceful persons.
We cannot think about ourselves as nonviolent persons if we don't apply it, if our actions
speak differently than we are nonviolent, we are not peaceful.
When I talk to someone, I ask him, what do you think about yourself?
Do you think yourself as a nonviolent person, a peaceful person?
They all answered the same question.
Yes, I am a nonviolent person.
I am against violence and everything.
But their actions speak louder than words.
When they go and pay for someone to do the dirty job on their behalf, to slit throats
of animals, are they still nonviolent people?
Are they still peaceful people?
So I try to wake up people that listen, it's not what you think about yourself that constitutes
yourself.
It's your actions.
Your actions talk about yourself.
What you do is who you are, not what you think.
So this is the main purpose of Lebanese Beacon so that we be as genuine as possible to the
message, especially to the victim.
And like be true to ourselves, say things the way they are, not worry much about losing
your friends, not worry much about receiving some hate because we do receive a lot of hate,
especially the more you are direct, the more you are raw, the more you will be receiving
some attacks.
So you should be ready.
And this is what I was ready because I did my homework, my researches as well.
The ethical aspect doesn't need any education or doesn't need any research.
It's quite clear what happens in slaughterhouses.
But then again, I wanted to know more about animal agriculture, the damages on our environment
and in our health as well.
I think friends are one thing, but family is something else entirely.
And in countries like where I'm from, North Africa or in the Middle East, family is very
important and tightly knit.
So how do you deal with the feedback from the family?
Listen, it's a very interesting question because a lot of people do ask me this question.
How do I deal with my non-vegan family members?
Well, unfortunately, I do have family members that are not vegan.
I have few that are vegans that I was able to convert and to convince basically.
The others, well, unfortunately, they know everything.
They listen to me.
They are even maybe sometimes annoyed by my preaching.
But here I am, it's family and I have the obligation in a way or another to be sitting
with them and be talking to them.
Now I had this dilemma.
Should I stop participating in their gathering or should I be present and give it another
shot and never give up on presumably good people?
Presumably because their actions speak differently.
And try to keep faith in those people and never give up.
I mean, it's true, sometimes depressing to be sitting with a family member that doesn't
share your values or your ethics.
And it's actively and knowingly participating in the biggest massacre of our time.
Yeah, it's sometimes hard, but yeah, we don't have much of a choice.
I mean, just leave and go away will not help in any way the animals.
Whereas if we keep on trying, maybe one word from here, one small video from there, one
action from, you know, might trigger their curiosity and their empathy, maybe.
It's more about empathy, trigger their empathy and to stop paying for the horrors that they
are paying nowadays.
You said something that is really touching that we live in a slaughterhouse basically
because of the scale of the killing.
And when you talk about your approach to activism, I feel like you're not trying to be confrontational.
You're just being radically honest about the situation.
Is that a good observation?
Well, maybe you are the first person who tackled it correctly.
A lot of people perceive me as being offensive or perceived as being someone who attacked
maybe or you are the first person who completely understood my approach and what I was trying
to deliver in my approach.
So thank you so much for that.
Of course.
I mean, I pay attention to my guests.
I listen.
Because the thing about big ag is there is the slaughter part, the killing part, but
there's also the lying part, the advertisement you talked about.
And they shroud themselves in lies and delusions.
And I really think it's hurtful.
There are laws in place to stop false advertisement.
They should be applied on big ag too.
You are completely correct.
But unfortunately, we're living in a non-vegan world governed by non-vegan people.
So the starting point is very difficult for us.
But I mean, we really do not have much of a choice here.
Our main purpose at Lebanese vegans and others should be as well is to debunk and expose
what they are trying to hide.
Actually their strength is hiding.
Our strength is to show what they are hiding.
And if we do not show, well, we are doing them a favor.
I receive lots of comments even from apologetic vegans.
You should not be showing slaughter videos.
You should be more gentle.
We are in a war basically.
We are in a war between good and bad.
We are in a war with people who care only about making money at the expense of your
health, at the expense of the animals, of course, at the expense of the environment
and at the expense of everyone.
So we shouldn't have a lenient approach.
And basically, you know what hurts in my humble opinion, but what hurt most our movement
is apologetic vegans, is lenient vegans, is vegans who didn't grasp anything about
veganism, is vegans who are there to make friends and to be liked by non-vegans.
Those people hurt the movement much more than non-vegans because those people give the impression
to non-vegans basically that, you know what, yeah, it might be an injustice, but maybe
you can take it as a second degree injustice.
There's nothing to worry about, to hurry about, to take a position.
Take your time, maybe serve.
If you want to consider it, fine.
You don't want to consider it.
Also, it's fine.
This message is completely wrong.
And it has the agriculture, the industry.
They want people to be lenient.
They want people not to be aggressive in a way, genuine and transparent in a way.
It will do them a big favor.
So our biggest weakness is in-house.
I truly believe this is apologetic vegans.
And especially when they try to confront people like me or organizations like me with comments
on, no, this is not the way you should be promoting veganism.
It's because of you that people hate the vegans, you know, such, such comments.
So yeah.
Well, let's talk about, because we talked about the strategy and your attention and
the ideas behind your actions.
But now let's talk about the actions themselves.
What kind of campaigns you have launched in Lebanon to address the non-vegans and to try
to convert them, to make them consider veganism.
Sure.
So first of all, well, I'm fortunate enough to be owning a hospital in Beirut.
It's called Haik Hospital.
And it happens to be the very first vegan hospital, not only in the Middle East, but
in the world.
It's been now three years, we completely remove animal means from our plates, whether it's
for our patients or in the cafeteria for our visitors.
And we, while we work together, Haik Hospital and Lebanese Vegans to create awareness.
One of the things that we did is conferences and seminars, training sessions for the public
as well, for our staff.
The public, of course, it's crucial because while our patients are invited to know why
this specific hospital omitted this kind of food and it's replacing it with a different
kind of food.
So education in this matter is key, especially in the health sector.
When it comes to the ethical sector, there is no education to be educated.
It's very clear.
But when it comes to the health sector, it's crucial to because, you know, we are living
and we are swimming.
We are swimming in life, as you mentioned, the animal culture through through lives everywhere
so that they can profit and make money out of our health and out of everything.
So we wanted to debunk the idea, first of all, that meat equals protein, that milk equals
calcium and that nutrients, basically, we can find nutrients in meat and other stuff.
So education was key for our public and our our patients and our staff to be able to to
provide them with as much information as we can on why we should stop feeding on dead
bodies and secretions and why we should be replacing those with plant based food.
Of course, in order to prevent chronic diseases, in order to prevent cancers and especially,
of course, pandemics when we know that more than three out of four emerging infectious
diseases in humans come from animals, which is called zoonotic diseases, where we have
the responsibility to act upon.
So one of the things was the collaboration that we did with the hospital, the conferences
that we did out there in the auditorium, the training sessions as well.
This is one aspect, another aspect of what we do as Lebanese vegans.
We undergo an annual basis, a billboard campaign where we we try to trigger as much as possible
people to make them think and to make them talk.
And this is what happened with our last campaign, which which was quite triggering, although
I didn't insert any kind of graphic images, no stuttering, no blood, no knife, not even
animals, it's just messages, but quite of triggering, let's say, it triggers people
to to think and to to be like, you know, to billboard campaigns, conferences, documentary
screenings.
Basically, we screened all the major vegan documents like earthlings, the Dominion, what
the health, cosperity and much more at the hospital and at the hub, because we back in
two thousand twenty, we had our location, which is in Beirut as well, which is called
Lebanese Vegan Social Hub.
In this specific hub, people, especially non-vegans can come over, can talk with vegans, can have
a discussion, a debate and know why why people are going vegan as well as this location have
a small cafe and small boutique.
The cafe, the menu that we conducted our cafe is in a way to cover all our major comfort
food, non-vegan comfort food, the ones that non-vegans are used to, like shawarma, you
know, and other stuff.
So we did it in a way to cover those foods to exactly show people and non-vegans that
listen today.
Everything is easy.
The switching is easy.
You will still have your shawarma.
You will still have your tawwou.
You will still have the food that you are used to.
So don't worry about that.
But you will be spending animal's life, which is the most important part.
So this was the purpose of our cafe and the boutique that we have is the one stop vegan
shop for every vegan or non-vegan who would want to have his grocery done in one place
under one roof.
They can find everything from food to meat alternatives, daily alternatives to deodorant,
shampoos, clothing, shoes, everything.
And basically, since we are an NGO, a non-profit organization, all the proceeds, like 100%
of the proceeds from the boutique or cafe goes to fund our activism.
Well, billboard campaigns, of course, not just, but also we eventually into the mainstream
media, namely television and radio.
We had a lot of talk shows on radio, a lot of interviews on television.
This is part of our activism campaign.
Last but not least, of course, we offer on a daily basis, ready-made vegan plant-based
means for our community, as well as every Thursday, we have volunteers.
They come over the center and they retrieve food, but not just food, clothing and blankets
and shoes and toys for children.
And they visit poor areas in Beirut, try to help people, not just in our community, but
elsewhere as well.
From the day we started till now, we already distributed more than 15,000 meals and we're
not stopping anytime soon.
As long as the organization is there, we will keep on doing what we're doing.
So basically from billboard campaigns, radio campaigns, distributing food for the needy
as well, we offer one month of free consultation with high-cost vegan dietitians for every
vegan or non-vegan, for every vegan who is struggling in a plant-based diet who would
want some professional advice, we'll be offering one month for free, or for someone who would
want to know more about veganism, who is scared to let go of animal products while our vegan
dietitian is there to help them do the transition.
And this is offered by Lebanese Vegan.
So in a nutshell, this is our activity.
That's truly amazing.
Just hearing, you know, listing all of your actions might make me want to just stand up
and go do something.
Okay, I want to go back to the hospital.
I think we could record an entire episode just on the hospital.
It's a truly, truly, truly wonderful initiative.
How did the patients welcome this change?
Because I would think that the hospital was not always vegan.
Of course.
So how did the patients welcome that change?
How did the staff welcome that change?
And did it change also some hearts?
Of course.
First of all, you should have asked me about the doctors, because the doctors are the first
people concerned in this transition, you know.
So my first challenge was to talk to doctors.
While the majority of my staff and the doctors are unfortunately not vegan, but I was there
to explain and to educate them on the importance of letting go of animal products and adopting
plant-based meals.
So whether the doctors or the staff, they all went to intensive education programs,
seminars, screening of documentaries, so that at least if they themselves would not adapt
to plant-based diet or be vegan, at least would know why the hospital took this decision
and what's the reasoning behind this transition.
So yeah, it was quite challenging.
I will not lie to you, especially when like meat eaters are faced with some kind of truth,
they get sometimes offended or triggered.
But then again, the moment you present them with studies, with analysis, with facts on
why we are omitting this kind of foods, which I do not consider food at all, yeah, it becomes
easier.
The communication becomes easier.
I mean, you should have some good information.
You should be prepared, of course, to do this transition.
Have enough information to know what to answer people, whether doctors or staff or patients
as well, to be ready to answer their inquiries, their questions and their concerns.
Because well, yeah, some of them are genuine in their questions, their concerns.
They might think that they might be deficient in some protein or iron or, you know.
So yeah, our mission was to be clear in our communication.
We are omitting meat because meat has been classified as carcinogenic by the WHO and
by the Cancer Research UK.
And if you want to venture more into that, well, processed meat has been classified as
non-acarcinogenic, which is the highest qualification of carcinogenic alongside tobacco cigarettes,
which is considered that it causes cancer.
So the question is, you know, a lot of people during my interviews or everywhere, they ask
me, why did high-cost hospital stop serving meat?
So I just look at them in the eye and tell them the question, shouldn't be why high-cost
hospital stop serving meat or carcinogenic food because meat has been classified as carcinogenic.
So my question should be, or question should be, why other hospitals are still offering
carcinogenic food to their patients?
Well, this is the right question that should be asked.
When the writings are on the wall, when the elephant is here and no one wants to look
at the elephant in the room, well, it's their problem.
But when meat has been classified as carcinogenic, how ethical or unethical is to have carcinogenic
food presented to the patients, the patients that are suffering from cancers, from chronic
diseases that have been promoted by eating this kind of food?
It's unethical, it's immoral for any hospital or any healthcare institution to be offering
carcinogenic food to their patients.
Now I completely understand the majority of hospital owners might not be vegan, which
is the case, I presume, because if they were, they would have done something.
But at least let them acknowledge the fact, let them acknowledge science.
When something is classified as carcinogenic, there is no room for carcinogenic food in
hospitals.
I mean, if tomorrow morning the WHO classified hummus as being carcinogenic, I will be obliged
to omit hummus from our, you know.
So yeah, this is in a nutshell what we did with our patients.
Now regarding, yeah, our patients, we have our dietitian, which happens to be of course
vegan.
Her mission is first of all during our transition period, because the decision wasn't taken
from one day to another.
It took us almost two years to do a full transition during this transition period of two years.
While we used to offer both meals, plant-based and animal-based meal as an option for people
to choose, you know.
But during this period, our dietitian used to do her visit and try to convince people
on why they should be choosing this plant-based meal over the animal-based meal, plant-based
meal with all the benefits that you might be having with this meal versus all the dangers
and all the diseases that you are at risk while eating this kind of food.
This was as well a way to introduce the idea that high hospital is going through a transition
so that after two years, I decided to omit and remove completely animal products from
our premises.
And today, all rooms are well equipped with information that are written on walls.
I have some pamphlets that you can find in each and every patient's table.
So before eating, the patient can just flip the pamphlet and read more about the advantages
of plant-based meal versus the dangers of continuing consuming flesh and tissues.
So the education is key for people to know why the specific hospital is doing so.
And whenever we are faced with opposition, when we present them with facts, with studies,
even though they might not like go back home and start being vegan, but at least they would
understand and accept because sometimes people are quite aggressive.
I mean, where is my piece of flesh in my meal?
Well, listen, your piece of flesh is carcinogenic, has been classified.
I really am really sorry I cannot be offering you such kind of food.
It has all the danger.
Now, if you want to go back home and eat whatever you want, I cannot tell you not to do so.
But my responsibility as a hospital, ethically, I cannot be offering you such kind of food.
It's the same thing as offering you a cigarette.
Would you be okay if I offer you a cigarette in the hospital?
Of course, you will find it extremely appalling.
So yeah, education is key.
Having the information for them accessible is key.
Our daily visits from our dietician is key as well.
So that all inquiries be answered, of course.
I heard you say the words public health, which is for me one of the strongest arguments for
veganism.
And I think that like many people during the pandemic, I was educated on the state of our
public health and on the risks that the big ag industry poses on our public health because
of zoonotic diseases.
So can you comment on that and talk about the risks, those additional existential risks
to all of humanity that big ag poses on top of all of the harm that it does in our world?
Of course.
Listen, as I mentioned earlier in our interview, as the CDC stated, more than 75% of new or
emerging infectious diseases in humans come from animals.
I mean, we should take a moment and think about it.
Now you know, with the COVID-19 pandemic, a lot of conspiracy theories popped up.
And unfortunately, I was really saddened to see some of my fellow vegan activists to adopt
this conspiracy theory.
Whereas we should have stick to the narrative that it emerged from a wet market, not from
a certain lab or whatever.
But let me consider presumably that this specific COVID-19 was man-made and was from a lab or
whatever.
What about the others?
What about HIV?
What about MERS?
What about SARS?
What about Ebola?
What about H1N1?
Well, I mean, it's obvious.
It's obvious.
The way we are treating animals and the way we are eating animals leads to pandemics,
leads to chronic disease and leads to cancer.
So I mean, it's only logical for us to be having a rational analysis towards what we
witnessed lately and what we witnessed during the last decade.
I mean, it's not only limited to COVID-19, the pandemic.
And what's more absurd, Ryan, is that during the pandemic, if you can recall very well,
they closed the so-called businesses and they kept open the so-called essential businesses.
And you know what was meant by essential businesses and what businesses were still operating?
Clutter houses.
The breathing grounds of viruses, of bacteria, of pandemics were still open.
They closed schools, they closed businesses, they closed universities, they closed everything
was closed, but cluster houses kept on operating, the breathing ground of pandemics.
We live in an absurd world.
We live in a world where they took our reasoning away from us and they reasoned on our behalf
and we are okay with that.
What vegans do is that they get back their reasoning and they reason for themselves.
So it's all about time to look at the facts, to look at the history of what we've been
going through.
And it's all about time to tackle the root cause of our problems, not just treat symptoms.
I mean, it's absurd to be treating symptoms without tackling the root cause of the problem.
Back then during the corona crisis, while everyone were, they were okay to wear masks
and wash their hands and to take some social distancing and so on and so forth, but to
tackle the root cause, no one wanted to tackle.
It was really absurd.
You go to a supermarket, you see people wearing masks and shopping for meat.
I mean, really?
So yeah, for all those reasons and more, it's all about time to reason for ourselves.
Animals are not happy to go have their throat slit.
We are not in a safe position when we are heading towards the sixth mass extinction.
Our environment is collapsing because of animal agriculture.
We should be true to ourselves and acknowledge that eating decaying flesh and decrescent
can never be beneficial to our body.
It's actually poison to our body.
We should have the courage to let go of our addiction.
We should have the courage to let go of our greediness and our convenience and go back
to humanity.
You know, we have humans, but we do not have humanity, unfortunately.
Something I really wanted to ask you about is a conversation I had with the leader of
a humanitarian aid organization.
And I was talking with her and trying to convince her that veganism should be front and center
of their worries in their activities and endeavors across the world.
And she said something that is echoed by many people in the West, which is that for some
people in the world, veganism is not part of their culture.
And so we should not impose that culture of veganism on others.
And it feels like the same argument of there are some people who are poor and so they can't
be vegan.
What do you say about that, about the way people portray veganism as not being universal,
as being something Western?
Well, listen, first of all, a culture does not dictate morality.
I mean, in other cultures, especially in the Arab world, not long ago, women were considered
as inferior.
They in Saudi Arabia, recently that women can drive cars.
So culture is not a good benchmark to morality.
We can start by answering in this way.
So I mean, in Spain, the culture is to bully, to do some bullfighting festivals and cheer,
and animals dying in agony.
This is culture as well, but does it make it moral?
I really doubt so.
So yeah, this is one point.
Now the other point that you raised, what was the question that you asked?
Larsen Well, about poverty.
Dr. Sajad Zalzad Yeah, poverty.
Of course, that veganism is not accessible to everyone, right?
Well, let me tell you something.
Of course, beyond meat is not accessible for everyone.
And by your life, cheese is not accessible for everyone, of course.
But then again, veganism is not about neither of both, not beyond meat nor by your life.
Veganism is about the simplest food on earth that we can plant and eat.
When we're talking plant based, we're talking chickpeas, beans, legumes, rice, vegetables.
I mean, this is the cheapest food on earth.
And something happened in Lebanon not far now is that we had financial crisis in Lebanon.
And basically the country went bankrupt.
This is when the real price of items were exposed.
People think that meat is cheap and animal products are cheap because they might find
it $1 less expensive than their counterpart vegan version.
But what they don't know is that they're paying the difference out of their own tax pay, out
of their own money.
So basically the price that they are paying is not the correct price, but they should
add, of course, the subsidies and the taxes that they are paying indirectly.
This is one.
Two, it's all about demand and supply.
When the demand for vegan products increases, the cost will decrease and therefore the prices
will decrease as well.
And the most important argument for that is that, well, if today you pay $1 more for some
vegan products, at least you will not be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars along the
way by visiting hospitals and having to pay on your own health.
So it's a win-win situation for everyone.
Plant based food is the cheapest food that any country and every person can buy.
Yeah, I was telling you that what skyrocketed was the animal products like meat and dairy
and eggs.
We then, when the government went bankrupt, they couldn't pay the subsidies and the difference
in prices.
So all the prices were as is.
So this is when people realized that no, actually what's expensive is meat, the kilo of meat
is now skyrocketed and so on and so forth.
So out of the unfortunate financial crisis of Lebanon, the small glimpse of hope is that
people would at least realize that no, what's expensive is animal products, whether it's
paying in currency or whether it's paying in your own health care.
If I look at the generation of my grandparents, for them, meat was always the luxury good.
Vegan or vegetarian was the default way people ate.
Meat was something extraordinary.
It happens maybe a few times a year or something.
It's not something you can afford eating every day.
So yeah, it's weird how the public discourse changed on that and all of a sudden, veganism
is considered luxurious.
So you talked about how you felt obligated to become an activist.
And I wonder, what is your message to the vegans out there who are more quiet and don't
really engage in activism work or any kind of actions for animal rights?
Well, first of all, I would like to thank them that they themselves, they stopped consuming
animal products, which is a valid point.
And then again, once you know the truth, you have the responsibility to forward the truth
and not keep it to yourself.
You have doubled the responsibility because now you know.
It's not that you don't know, you know.
So you should not keep it to yourself.
If you are spending animal lives, you know how to do that.
Well, you should tell others how to do it as well.
So for my fellow quiet vegans, I really encourage you guys to be vegan.
Vegan is not just for yourself.
Maybe if you were plant based, I would completely understand.
Plant based, you are worried about your health and your personal well-being.
Whereas when you're vegan, you are worried about others and you have empathy towards
what we are doing to those animals.
So a true vegan is never quiet.
A plant based person can be quiet.
Of course, a vegan should be outspoken and he should be true to himself, true to others,
true to the message that he's trying to deliver and not worry much about hurting others feelings
as much as worry how to be a good defender to those animals.
Did you have something to add George before we stopped the recording?
Listen, first of all, I was very pleased to be talking to you.
Your questions are really, really interesting and not common questions that I do receive
from other interviews.
So I really congratulate you on that.
Now for our community and for the people who are listening, listen guys, try not to deviate
and think about branches.
I mean, forget about protein, forget about tradition, forget about Jesus ate fish, forget
about halal, forget about calcium, forget about everything that you might think of.
Just resume it to what happens at the end.
Go and visit your nearest slaughterhouse.
Witness what happens.
Witness the preparation of the meat that you can have in an hour or so.
Again, if what you see doesn't reflect the person that you are, you should have a moral
position towards what you witnessed.
Again, if what you see you're completely fine with it, stop wasting your time listening
to some other podcasts and excuse me if I wasted your time.
So this comes to that.
Veganism is no rocket science.
It's not something difficult to grasp, to understand, to do.
Go see for yourself what you're funding.
If you're okay, continue.
If you're not, you should go vegan.
And how can we support the mission of your organization?
Well, listen, people can follow us on social media, of course, and they can check our website.
We have a donation link for everyone who would want to donate, as I mentioned, all the proceeds
that we are having or gathering from the boutique or the cafe, or even the donations that we
are receiving.
They go to fund our relief program, of course, and our activism campaign.
So I am very grateful to everyone who is visiting our hub, ordering some delicious food, buying
some stuff from the boutique or even donating from abroad.
You guys are really exceptional and you really give us the push and the motivation we need
to continue what we're doing.
Do you expect Lebanese vegans to grow and maybe enter new Arab countries?
Well, I hope so.
I hope so.
This is my aim as Lebanese vegan.
And then again, since I have quite a raw and direct approach, maybe I'll have some difficulties
to grow even more than I've grown so far, because now maybe the ones that are still
speaking to Lebanese vegans, they are true vegans, in my humble opinion.
And I figured that true vegans are really the minority out there.
So yeah, I hope that we will be able to reach other countries, but maybe in my, as I mentioned,
in my approach, it's going to be a bit difficult.
I should be more lenient and more gentle in my approach, which is not me.
I can never be that.
So I keep it the way it is.
And if it has to grow, it will grow.
If not, well, it's the destiny of Lebanese vegans.
But at least I'll be true to myself.
And this is the biggest satisfaction.
More than to grow.
I really do not care to grow as much as to be true to myself and true to the message
that I'm delivering.
Well at least the content you are developing is partly, I guess, in Arabic, which has this
access point for Arab speakers around the world who do not necessarily have much vegans
talking to them in their language.
But of course your hospital should be the blueprint for hospitals all around the world.
The plant-based vegan program that you have launched in the hospitals should be studied.
Have you had any vegan activists come visit you in Beirut and visit the hospital?
Of course.
The international community was much more impressed by our transition than our local
community.
They figured out that it was quite a bold move on my part.
I received a lot of people who are interested to visit Lebanon, and they did actually.
And the last person who visited Lebanon was a European MP who was conducting a documentary.
He's Portuguese, by the way.
His name is Francisco Guerrero.
He came over to Lebanon with Hugo, which is the film director.
So they shot the scene in Lebanon regarding the hospital, which they included in their
documentary.
And I had another person visiting me as well doing a documentary in veganism.
He wanted to add the section of the very first vegan hospital in the world.
So yeah, we received a lot of positive feedback on that as being the first hospital to do
so.
But really what will bring me the biggest satisfaction is not that to be labeled as
being the very first hospital.
I really don't care about labels as much as I care to influence others so that others
would follow sooner than later.
Those are great parting words.
George, you are a vegan giant.
Thank you so much for your time, for having accepted my invitation and answered my questions.
Thank you so much.
Well, Ryan, it was a pleasure talking to you.
I wish you the best of luck with your podcast.
You have a very interesting lineup of questions, which are quite different and not cliché,
you know, because I'm quite used to some cliche questions.
No, you dig deeper and differently.
So thumbs up.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage
more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.