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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to the vegan report.

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Today, I invite you to travel to Lebanon, in the heart of the Middle East, and get inspired

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by the success story of Lebanese Vegans, a non-profit dedicated to advancing the cause

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of animal rights in the Arab world.

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To discuss this topic, I have with me Georges Hayek, the founder of Lebanese Vegans and

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the man behind the first vegan hospital ever, the Hayek Hospital, located in Beirut.

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Georges, thank you so much for being on the show.

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Thank you for having me, Ryan.

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Amazing.

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So, my first question for you is, how would you describe Lebanon to someone who knows

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nothing about the country?

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Well, Lebanon is a small country located in the Middle East, in the heart of the Middle

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East.

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We are a country that has a lot of religion as well.

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We live in a community where you have, of course, Christians, but not also Christians.

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We have Muslims and other religions.

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So, we like a small sample of what coexistence should be.

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We try to coexist as much as possible, but we should give a good image to the world that

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we are all humans, and Lebanon is an example of how people can coexist with their differences.

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We have some good food as well.

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Lebanese food is renowned worldwide to be having one of the best Meza.

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So, now we're going to be talking about how Lebanese food is more than 80% naturally

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born vegan food by default.

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And yeah, we're open to the West, we're open to the world.

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We're a small country that relies mainly on the support of bigger countries as well.

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So, having good relationships with our neighbors is essential, although it's not always the

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case.

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But yeah, we're hoping for the best and we're hoping for peace worldwide.

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And you also have amazing weather.

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So let's dream a little.

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What are the top tourist attractions in Lebanon?

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Well, of course, we have the sea, the Mediterranean Sea, which happens to be not very far from

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if you want to visit mountains as well.

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And as I mentioned before, we are a small country.

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We have the luxury to be turning Lebanon in one full day, we can do that.

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So we can go have lunch at the beach and at night go to the mountains and have dinner

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there.

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So it's quite a cozy place, let's say, that offers a lot of facilities.

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We have a lot as well of heritage.

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You know, our origin is Spanish.

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So we have the Bibleos where the alphabet started from there.

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So Lebanon is quite rich in its heritage, in its history as well.

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A lot of trademarks.

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I encourage a lot of people to come and visit.

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We have Baalbak, Baalbak is renowned as well internationally.

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So a lot of important historical places are to be visited.

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So it's a quite rich country, culturally wise.

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I was sold at vegan food.

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So a key question to this podcast might be how are animals treated and perceived by Lebanese

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people?

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Sure.

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Listen, Ryan, I think that the problem resides not just in Lebanon, but worldwide.

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Of course, now there are some countries that are more animal welfareists than others.

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But when it comes to animal rights, all of us are very far behind.

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So regarding animal welfare, we have some few organizations that take care about cats

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and dogs, basically pets, but they brand themselves as animal organizations, whereas they only

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focus on few cats and dogs and few horses, which I am completely against because it gives

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the impression that all other animals are OK to abuse and to kill and to eat.

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Well, the community is being educated as much as possible with Lebanese Veganism Organization

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that I created years ago and others as well.

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We try as much as possible to expose the horrors about animal agriculture, especially regarding

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the ethical aspect of it, because we're vegan for ethics.

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And it's all about ethics.

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Of course, now you have advantages of going vegan, relating the environment and our health,

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but mainly it's for ethics.

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So yeah, we try as much as possible in Lebanon, especially that here the mentality is quite

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like, I mean, mainly in a way that, you know, you should be eating some kind of meat to

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be man or something of the sort, which is completely wrong, of course, especially like

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in the mountains, they still eat sometimes some raw meat with some spices, you know.

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So yeah, the more the more we go away from the capital, Beirut, the more the idea of

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animal rights and veganism becomes blurry, you know.

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But yeah, as much as possible, we try to raise awareness and we're on it.

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You talked about how Lebanon is located in the Middle East.

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And I'm wondering, you know, is the situation in terms of animal welfare, the way we treat

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animals, animal rights comparable to Lebanon in other Arab countries?

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We can say that we can say that we can compare ourselves regarding how we treat animals with

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other Arabic countries.

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I can tell you that, like the standards are pretty low, especially when it comes to farmed

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animals.

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You know, we're not talking about pet animals because pet animals are very well treated

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over here, they are very well respected.

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But yeah, it stops there.

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The animal welfare and I mean, the way animals are treated before having their throat slit

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is not great.

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Not here in Lebanon, not in the Arab world as well.

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Especially that if we venture into the Muslim countries, they do use the halal standard,

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which some might consider it like quite violent, others presume that the animal will feel no

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pain, especially religious people.

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Anyway, what concerning vegans and myself, I truly believe that there is no way to do

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the wrong thing in a good way.

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So yeah, we are still behind this.

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But like myself and the organization that I created, we do not focus on welcarism as

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much as we talk about animal rights.

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We do not believe that doing something wrong in a good way can be beneficial for any party

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that is.

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So we stick to animal rights, we stick the message of Lebanon's vegans is quite raw and

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in your face.

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We are there to defend the victim on behalf of the victim.

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We're not here to be like, as I always mentioned, we are not here to make friends, we are not

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here to gain some popularity.

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We are here to derange the status quo, to shake the status quo, to make people feel

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uncomfortable because personally, I truly believe that changes come when you shake the

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comfort zone of someone.

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No one will ever change if he's sitting in his couch comfortably and listening to someone

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who says that it might be an injustice, but you know what, you can take it slowly, baby

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steps and slowly, don't know.

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Our message is quite, it's a queer cut message.

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It's either black or white.

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I want to dig deeper into the situation of how we treat animals in the Arab world to

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truly make a distinction with the Western world maybe.

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I think that many Arab people have this proximity with slaughter and animals that Westerners

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do not.

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And what I'm thinking about is a prevalent practice in the Middle East, mostly among

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Muslim Arabs to sacrifice a sheep every year.

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Al-Hayyid.

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Yes, Al-Hayyid.

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And that is something that most families participate in and members of that family will slaughter

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themselves with a knife, the sheep, which is completely alien to Western people.

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I think we often hear in the West, among vegan activists, if you had to slaughter the animal

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yourself, you would not eat it.

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Probably you might still eat the animal.

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So would you like to comment on that issue?

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Of course, as you mentioned, maybe the disconnect over here in this part of the world is less

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than the disconnect that you guys are living in the other parts of the world for the specific

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reason that you just mentioned and others as well.

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Yeah, the idea of using animals for food or for any other purpose that is still acceptable

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and accepted over here, especially as I mentioned in the mountains far from the capital, Beirut.

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Now the capital, Beirut, the thing that you mentioned in the slaughtering of the sheep

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on the street, it's happening still, unfortunately, but much less than what it used to.

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So we can really feel that people are starting to like having some kind of an issue regarding

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slaughtering animals on the streets.

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Although I truly believe that people should see at least what they are paying for and

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then if they're okay, well, it's their problem.

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I mean, it only reflects the person that they are, if they're okay with that or not.

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But yeah, I believe that people should at least not hold the knife or do it themselves

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because no one would do that, but at least have the courage to whenever Lebanese vegans

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post a video of a slaughterhouse or any other account that is, they should have the courage

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to at least face it.

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And then, well, if what they see doesn't reflect the person that they are, they should have

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a moral stand.

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And if not, if what they see, they are completely okay with it, well, I truly encourage everyone

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to stop trying to convince those people because those people are extremely very far from the

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vegan message.

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And unfortunately, well, you can try for ages and you can never succeed.

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What will happen is that you will drain your efforts, yourself, your energy, and you will

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be wasting your time.

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So what I truly like, encourage everyone, especially vegan activists, is to spare their

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energy and their efforts and their talk to someone who is willing to listen to someone

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that isn't very far from the vegan message.

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Let's stick to those and then maybe we'll have time to stick to others.

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That's good advice.

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And I want to maybe one last point to talk about the fish and how the fish are treated.

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You talked about how Lebanon is on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea.

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But surprisingly, you also said that most of your food was vegan, vegan-friendly, easily

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adaptable to vegan ways.

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So how is it?

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Because I would think that a coastal country would be more into fishing like maybe Japan.

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So as you mentioned, of course, Lebanon lies on the Mediterranean coast.

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And the thing is, of course, that you happen to come across a lot of fish restaurants in

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those specific areas where the beach is approximately.

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But the thing is that, as I mentioned, our naturally born food by default is the meze.

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And it's constituted of chickpeas, lentils, wine leaves.

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So we can have hummus, we can have tabbouleh, we can have badila.

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We can have so much dishes that are already vegan by default, even before the creation

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of the word vegan.

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So it's true that we do have fish restaurants because of our location, Jio location.

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But it's not our main food.

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The main food that we eat is the meze, is the hummus, is the tabbouleh, and so on and

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so forth.

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So yeah, we're not like Japan, where they do rely a lot with fishing and fish and sushi

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and stuff like that.

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We are still in the meze, our main food is meze.

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And what about the vegan situation?

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So you said veganism is more prevalent in the city.

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So how prevalent is it across Lebanon, but also across the Middle East?

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I would guess it's still pretty marginal.

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So how many of you are you as an estimate?

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And how is life as a vegan in the Middle East?

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Well, listen, to be honest with you, I really don't see much of a difference, surprisingly,

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between what happened over here in Lebanon regarding the subject and what happens elsewhere.

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I see a lot of videos, a lot of debate.

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The arguments are all the same everywhere.

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It's only the language that changes.

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The community, listen, the community is quite aware over here, Lebanon especially, as I

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mentioned, in the capital, people are educated enough to know about veganism, to know the

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meaning first of the word, because a lot of people don't know what vegan is all about.

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What is vegan is all about, what are we supposed to be omitting if we ever go vegan?

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What are we supposed to eat, not to eat, what to wear, not to wear?

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A lot of people are aware, but unfortunately not a lot of people are ready to have the

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courage to stop their convenience, because at the end of the day, it's nothing but convenience.

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It has nothing to do with the culture, nothing to do with tradition, nothing to do with religion,

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nothing to do with protein even, it's all about taste and convenience.

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So they are used to a certain taste, they search for their convenience, although they

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know that what animals go through is horrible, barbaric, well you name it.

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But since everybody's doing it, they prefer to tag along and to blend into this herd society,

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which knows a lot about veganism, but don't give it much of an attention.

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I completely agree with you.

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I met people who became vegans, I think in the 1960s and even 70s, like when there were

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no vegan options, when you went grocery shopping.

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And I have to admit, in all honesty, if I was born during that time, I don't know if

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I would have become vegan, because it would be too inconvenient, maybe vegetarian, but

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vegan, that's a whole other story.

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I'm happy to have been born in an era when you have many vegan options out there.

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Exactly, Ryan, you know, today especially, as you mentioned, it's more of a moral obligation

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today when there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever.

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Even the taste that you used to have as a non-vegan, you can still have it today.

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So maybe years back you can say, listen, I don't want to stop this, I'm used to that.

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Well today you have no excuse whatsoever.

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Every alternative, every substitute is out there.

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So if you ever want to consider vegan, you will not be missing on anything but on killing

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the animals, basically.

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So let's talk about the organization Lebanese Vegans.

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So how did the organization start?

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Well, I can start by telling you how personally I turned vegan and this led me to create Lebanese

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Vegans as the NGO.

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So more than 12 years ago, I was exposed on my social media feed with footage of a cow

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being slaughtered in an abattoir by a friend whom I used to consider as an annoying vegan

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extremist, you know.

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And I was wondering why, I mean, why would he want to ruin my day and show me such horror

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on my newsfeed?

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I really don't need that first thing in the morning, you know.

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But I don't know what happened that specific moment, I decided, you know what, let me have

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a look.

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So I decided to look at this video that was censored, you know, all those videos are censored

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so that people, so that they hide the truth from people.

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Whereas if you turn on the TV, you will not see a commercial of cow dancing being slaughtered,

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baby dancing.

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I mean, so they show you live, they show you a cow dancing and running and so on and so

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forth, but they will never show you exactly what happened.

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So by then I took the courage and witnessed this video, which completely, I mean, it hit

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me so hard.

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And I went back home, I have four dogs at home whom I lost so very much.

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I started to gathering those dogs.

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This is when I focused on their eyes and I realized that there was someone looking back

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at me.

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And I figured out that this cow whom I just witnessed being slaughtered, when I looked

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at her eyes as well, and I saw the eyes of my dogs, I saw that there was someone behind

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this cow as well who was struggling and fighting for their life.

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So this is where I felt the hypocrisy of me like patting one kind of an animal and paying

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someone to slit the throat of another animal so that I can enjoy the flesh of this animal

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that could have been very easily my dog if we were living in another part of the world.

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So yeah, I started the hypocrisy, I felt the hypocrisy in my behavior.

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And this is when I started to do my own research on the matter.

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First, I started as a vegetarian, like most vegans, because I didn't know better about

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the dairy and the egg industry.

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So I started, I cut completely animal products first, and then I heard about the word vegan.

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I was like, okay, vegetarian, isn't it good enough to be vegetarian?

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So let me dig more into what veganism, what it's all about.

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So I figured that the cruelty towards animals didn't stop for food or for their meat, but

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as well for their secretions, as well for their skin, as well for entertainment, to

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entertain us, whether it's a dolphin in a small banyan, the finarium, whether it's a

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lion in a zoo, or in circuses.

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So yeah, I figured that the abuse of animals is not just meat related, but every use of

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animal is abused.

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So this is when I figured out that veganism makes perfect sense, especially for me.

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I mean, I figured out that veganism wasn't something like a magical word or something

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extremely difficult to do or to be.

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It's no rocket science, basically.

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It's very simple.

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If you witness, if you see what happened at slaughterhouses, this is basically the end

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result of everything we might be talking on a side note.

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What happens in slaughterhouses is the end result.

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So if this is what you see, the animals fighting for their lives, and the agony and the bloodshed

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everywhere, if you don't mind, well, continue doing what you're doing.

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If you really were deranged and what you see doesn't reflect the person that you are, you

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should take a decision.

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And this is what I did.

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Actually, I took a moral stance towards what I witnessed, and I decided to switch from

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vegetarian to veganism.

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And I felt the obligation, this is going back to your question, I felt the obligation not

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only to be vegan myself, but to be an outspoken vegan, an active vegan, try to convince others

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to stop hurting animals unnecessarily.

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So I decided to open up a small, modest Facebook and Instagram social media account, LebaneseVegans.

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I didn't know that it will gain much attention and we will reach the point that we reached

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today.

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So yeah, it started by a simple social media account, exposing the dairy and the meat and

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leather and all animal use industries in a very blunt way, which I presume are one of

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the very few accounts in social media to be this blunt and this direct without pandering

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or precious feelings or beating around the bush.

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Because as I mentioned before, while I didn't turn vegan to make friends, I didn't turn

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vegan to gain some popularity or notoriety.

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Well, actually, it's just the opposite.

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The moment I turned vegan, I had a lot of friends, local friends who left me.

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We're no longer friends because they got annoyed by me and by my preaching in a way.

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But yeah, I felt the obligation because I made the connection and not just that, I felt

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that we're living in a horrible world.

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That basically we're living in a one giant slaughterhouse because when we butcher more

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than 80 billion land animals alone, let alone the fish, three trillion fish animals.

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So yeah, I figured that we cannot talk about peace.

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We cannot think about ourselves as peaceful persons.

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We cannot think about ourselves as nonviolent persons if we don't apply it, if our actions

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speak differently than we are nonviolent, we are not peaceful.

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When I talk to someone, I ask him, what do you think about yourself?

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Do you think yourself as a nonviolent person, a peaceful person?

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They all answered the same question.

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Yes, I am a nonviolent person.

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I am against violence and everything.

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But their actions speak louder than words.

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When they go and pay for someone to do the dirty job on their behalf, to slit throats

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of animals, are they still nonviolent people?

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Are they still peaceful people?

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00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:11,800
So I try to wake up people that listen, it's not what you think about yourself that constitutes

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yourself.

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It's your actions.

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Your actions talk about yourself.

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What you do is who you are, not what you think.

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So this is the main purpose of Lebanese Beacon so that we be as genuine as possible to the

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message, especially to the victim.

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And like be true to ourselves, say things the way they are, not worry much about losing

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your friends, not worry much about receiving some hate because we do receive a lot of hate,

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especially the more you are direct, the more you are raw, the more you will be receiving

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some attacks.

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So you should be ready.

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And this is what I was ready because I did my homework, my researches as well.

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The ethical aspect doesn't need any education or doesn't need any research.

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It's quite clear what happens in slaughterhouses.

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But then again, I wanted to know more about animal agriculture, the damages on our environment

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and in our health as well.

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I think friends are one thing, but family is something else entirely.

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And in countries like where I'm from, North Africa or in the Middle East, family is very

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important and tightly knit.

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So how do you deal with the feedback from the family?

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Listen, it's a very interesting question because a lot of people do ask me this question.

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How do I deal with my non-vegan family members?

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00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,920
Well, unfortunately, I do have family members that are not vegan.

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I have few that are vegans that I was able to convert and to convince basically.

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The others, well, unfortunately, they know everything.

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They listen to me.

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They are even maybe sometimes annoyed by my preaching.

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But here I am, it's family and I have the obligation in a way or another to be sitting

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with them and be talking to them.

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00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,520
Now I had this dilemma.

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00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:30,680
Should I stop participating in their gathering or should I be present and give it another

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shot and never give up on presumably good people?

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00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,480
Presumably because their actions speak differently.

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And try to keep faith in those people and never give up.

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I mean, it's true, sometimes depressing to be sitting with a family member that doesn't

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share your values or your ethics.

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And it's actively and knowingly participating in the biggest massacre of our time.

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00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:09,520
Yeah, it's sometimes hard, but yeah, we don't have much of a choice.

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00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,840
I mean, just leave and go away will not help in any way the animals.

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00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:21,680
Whereas if we keep on trying, maybe one word from here, one small video from there, one

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00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:27,400
action from, you know, might trigger their curiosity and their empathy, maybe.

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00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:36,920
It's more about empathy, trigger their empathy and to stop paying for the horrors that they

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are paying nowadays.

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00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,560
You said something that is really touching that we live in a slaughterhouse basically

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because of the scale of the killing.

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00:29:51,520 --> 00:30:04,440
And when you talk about your approach to activism, I feel like you're not trying to be confrontational.

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00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,240
You're just being radically honest about the situation.

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00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,200
Is that a good observation?

351
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:18,440
Well, maybe you are the first person who tackled it correctly.

352
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:26,600
A lot of people perceive me as being offensive or perceived as being someone who attacked

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00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:34,640
maybe or you are the first person who completely understood my approach and what I was trying

354
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,840
to deliver in my approach.

355
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,240
So thank you so much for that.

356
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,240
Of course.

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00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:42,560
I mean, I pay attention to my guests.

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I listen.

359
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:53,440
Because the thing about big ag is there is the slaughter part, the killing part, but

360
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:59,320
there's also the lying part, the advertisement you talked about.

361
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:05,960
And they shroud themselves in lies and delusions.

362
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,880
And I really think it's hurtful.

363
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:16,040
There are laws in place to stop false advertisement.

364
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,800
They should be applied on big ag too.

365
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,000
You are completely correct.

366
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:29,920
But unfortunately, we're living in a non-vegan world governed by non-vegan people.

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So the starting point is very difficult for us.

368
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:43,680
But I mean, we really do not have much of a choice here.

369
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:49,880
Our main purpose at Lebanese vegans and others should be as well is to debunk and expose

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00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,640
what they are trying to hide.

371
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,840
Actually their strength is hiding.

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00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,760
Our strength is to show what they are hiding.

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00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,720
And if we do not show, well, we are doing them a favor.

374
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,960
I receive lots of comments even from apologetic vegans.

375
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,600
You should not be showing slaughter videos.

376
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,520
You should be more gentle.

377
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:15,520
We are in a war basically.

378
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,040
We are in a war between good and bad.

379
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,400
We are in a war with people who care only about making money at the expense of your

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00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,680
health, at the expense of the animals, of course, at the expense of the environment

381
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,880
and at the expense of everyone.

382
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,840
So we shouldn't have a lenient approach.

383
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:38,040
And basically, you know what hurts in my humble opinion, but what hurt most our movement

384
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:43,040
is apologetic vegans, is lenient vegans, is vegans who didn't grasp anything about

385
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:50,280
veganism, is vegans who are there to make friends and to be liked by non-vegans.

386
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:59,200
Those people hurt the movement much more than non-vegans because those people give the impression

387
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:05,840
to non-vegans basically that, you know what, yeah, it might be an injustice, but maybe

388
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,040
you can take it as a second degree injustice.

389
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:13,160
There's nothing to worry about, to hurry about, to take a position.

390
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,640
Take your time, maybe serve.

391
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,000
If you want to consider it, fine.

392
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,000
You don't want to consider it.

393
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,160
Also, it's fine.

394
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,080
This message is completely wrong.

395
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,320
And it has the agriculture, the industry.

396
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,040
They want people to be lenient.

397
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:34,440
They want people not to be aggressive in a way, genuine and transparent in a way.

398
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,760
It will do them a big favor.

399
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,960
So our biggest weakness is in-house.

400
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,200
I truly believe this is apologetic vegans.

401
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:56,440
And especially when they try to confront people like me or organizations like me with comments

402
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,440
on, no, this is not the way you should be promoting veganism.

403
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,640
It's because of you that people hate the vegans, you know, such, such comments.

404
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,640
So yeah.

405
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:14,520
Well, let's talk about, because we talked about the strategy and your attention and

406
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,720
the ideas behind your actions.

407
00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:20,200
But now let's talk about the actions themselves.

408
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:26,920
What kind of campaigns you have launched in Lebanon to address the non-vegans and to try

409
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,480
to convert them, to make them consider veganism.

410
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,480
Sure.

411
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:39,800
So first of all, well, I'm fortunate enough to be owning a hospital in Beirut.

412
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,520
It's called Haik Hospital.

413
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,560
And it happens to be the very first vegan hospital, not only in the Middle East, but

414
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:46,560
in the world.

415
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:53,040
It's been now three years, we completely remove animal means from our plates, whether it's

416
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,760
for our patients or in the cafeteria for our visitors.

417
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:02,640
And we, while we work together, Haik Hospital and Lebanese Vegans to create awareness.

418
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,480
One of the things that we did is conferences and seminars, training sessions for the public

419
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,080
as well, for our staff.

420
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,280
The public, of course, it's crucial because while our patients are invited to know why

421
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:21,680
this specific hospital omitted this kind of food and it's replacing it with a different

422
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:22,800
kind of food.

423
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,080
So education in this matter is key, especially in the health sector.

424
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,600
When it comes to the ethical sector, there is no education to be educated.

425
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,840
It's very clear.

426
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:40,680
But when it comes to the health sector, it's crucial to because, you know, we are living

427
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,720
and we are swimming.

428
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:46,640
We are swimming in life, as you mentioned, the animal culture through through lives everywhere

429
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,080
so that they can profit and make money out of our health and out of everything.

430
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:59,440
So we wanted to debunk the idea, first of all, that meat equals protein, that milk equals

431
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:07,280
calcium and that nutrients, basically, we can find nutrients in meat and other stuff.

432
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:18,240
So education was key for our public and our our patients and our staff to be able to to

433
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:25,320
provide them with as much information as we can on why we should stop feeding on dead

434
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:33,040
bodies and secretions and why we should be replacing those with plant based food.

435
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:39,360
Of course, in order to prevent chronic diseases, in order to prevent cancers and especially,

436
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,320
of course, pandemics when we know that more than three out of four emerging infectious

437
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,720
diseases in humans come from animals, which is called zoonotic diseases, where we have

438
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,140
the responsibility to act upon.

439
00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:55,680
So one of the things was the collaboration that we did with the hospital, the conferences

440
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,000
that we did out there in the auditorium, the training sessions as well.

441
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,640
This is one aspect, another aspect of what we do as Lebanese vegans.

442
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:12,480
We undergo an annual basis, a billboard campaign where we we try to trigger as much as possible

443
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,120
people to make them think and to make them talk.

444
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:22,400
And this is what happened with our last campaign, which which was quite triggering, although

445
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,640
I didn't insert any kind of graphic images, no stuttering, no blood, no knife, not even

446
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:35,680
animals, it's just messages, but quite of triggering, let's say, it triggers people

447
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:44,000
to to think and to to be like, you know, to billboard campaigns, conferences, documentary

448
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,000
screenings.

449
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:51,800
Basically, we screened all the major vegan documents like earthlings, the Dominion, what

450
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:59,360
the health, cosperity and much more at the hospital and at the hub, because we back in

451
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:07,400
two thousand twenty, we had our location, which is in Beirut as well, which is called

452
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,040
Lebanese Vegan Social Hub.

453
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:16,120
In this specific hub, people, especially non-vegans can come over, can talk with vegans, can have

454
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:26,760
a discussion, a debate and know why why people are going vegan as well as this location have

455
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,200
a small cafe and small boutique.

456
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:38,360
The cafe, the menu that we conducted our cafe is in a way to cover all our major comfort

457
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:45,840
food, non-vegan comfort food, the ones that non-vegans are used to, like shawarma, you

458
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,040
know, and other stuff.

459
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,360
So we did it in a way to cover those foods to exactly show people and non-vegans that

460
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,480
listen today.

461
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,480
Everything is easy.

462
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,120
The switching is easy.

463
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,120
You will still have your shawarma.

464
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,400
You will still have your tawwou.

465
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,960
You will still have the food that you are used to.

466
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,400
So don't worry about that.

467
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,200
But you will be spending animal's life, which is the most important part.

468
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,560
So this was the purpose of our cafe and the boutique that we have is the one stop vegan

469
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,920
shop for every vegan or non-vegan who would want to have his grocery done in one place

470
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:22,920
under one roof.

471
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:29,240
They can find everything from food to meat alternatives, daily alternatives to deodorant,

472
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:34,240
shampoos, clothing, shoes, everything.

473
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:42,120
And basically, since we are an NGO, a non-profit organization, all the proceeds, like 100%

474
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,320
of the proceeds from the boutique or cafe goes to fund our activism.

475
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:52,800
Well, billboard campaigns, of course, not just, but also we eventually into the mainstream

476
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,000
media, namely television and radio.

477
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,120
We had a lot of talk shows on radio, a lot of interviews on television.

478
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:08,080
This is part of our activism campaign.

479
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:16,000
Last but not least, of course, we offer on a daily basis, ready-made vegan plant-based

480
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,040
means for our community, as well as every Thursday, we have volunteers.

481
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:29,120
They come over the center and they retrieve food, but not just food, clothing and blankets

482
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,560
and shoes and toys for children.

483
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:38,400
And they visit poor areas in Beirut, try to help people, not just in our community, but

484
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,680
elsewhere as well.

485
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:48,600
From the day we started till now, we already distributed more than 15,000 meals and we're

486
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,400
not stopping anytime soon.

487
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:57,480
As long as the organization is there, we will keep on doing what we're doing.

488
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:04,760
So basically from billboard campaigns, radio campaigns, distributing food for the needy

489
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:15,080
as well, we offer one month of free consultation with high-cost vegan dietitians for every

490
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,840
vegan or non-vegan, for every vegan who is struggling in a plant-based diet who would

491
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:26,760
want some professional advice, we'll be offering one month for free, or for someone who would

492
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:34,160
want to know more about veganism, who is scared to let go of animal products while our vegan

493
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,920
dietitian is there to help them do the transition.

494
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,640
And this is offered by Lebanese Vegan.

495
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,280
So in a nutshell, this is our activity.

496
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,760
That's truly amazing.

497
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:52,440
Just hearing, you know, listing all of your actions might make me want to just stand up

498
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,120
and go do something.

499
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,040
Okay, I want to go back to the hospital.

500
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:05,160
I think we could record an entire episode just on the hospital.

501
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:10,500
It's a truly, truly, truly wonderful initiative.

502
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:15,840
How did the patients welcome this change?

503
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,720
Because I would think that the hospital was not always vegan.

504
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:20,980
Of course.

505
00:42:20,980 --> 00:42:23,640
So how did the patients welcome that change?

506
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,360
How did the staff welcome that change?

507
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,120
And did it change also some hearts?

508
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,120
Of course.

509
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,960
First of all, you should have asked me about the doctors, because the doctors are the first

510
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,440
people concerned in this transition, you know.

511
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,880
So my first challenge was to talk to doctors.

512
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:53,000
While the majority of my staff and the doctors are unfortunately not vegan, but I was there

513
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,880
to explain and to educate them on the importance of letting go of animal products and adopting

514
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,800
plant-based meals.

515
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:10,800
So whether the doctors or the staff, they all went to intensive education programs,

516
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:19,400
seminars, screening of documentaries, so that at least if they themselves would not adapt

517
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:25,160
to plant-based diet or be vegan, at least would know why the hospital took this decision

518
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:31,360
and what's the reasoning behind this transition.

519
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,400
So yeah, it was quite challenging.

520
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:40,960
I will not lie to you, especially when like meat eaters are faced with some kind of truth,

521
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,660
they get sometimes offended or triggered.

522
00:43:43,660 --> 00:43:51,000
But then again, the moment you present them with studies, with analysis, with facts on

523
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:58,920
why we are omitting this kind of foods, which I do not consider food at all, yeah, it becomes

524
00:43:58,920 --> 00:43:59,920
easier.

525
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:01,360
The communication becomes easier.

526
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:06,640
I mean, you should have some good information.

527
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,640
You should be prepared, of course, to do this transition.

528
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:20,240
Have enough information to know what to answer people, whether doctors or staff or patients

529
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:28,200
as well, to be ready to answer their inquiries, their questions and their concerns.

530
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:35,200
Because well, yeah, some of them are genuine in their questions, their concerns.

531
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:43,440
They might think that they might be deficient in some protein or iron or, you know.

532
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:49,880
So yeah, our mission was to be clear in our communication.

533
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:55,200
We are omitting meat because meat has been classified as carcinogenic by the WHO and

534
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,280
by the Cancer Research UK.

535
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,680
And if you want to venture more into that, well, processed meat has been classified as

536
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:13,600
non-acarcinogenic, which is the highest qualification of carcinogenic alongside tobacco cigarettes,

537
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,680
which is considered that it causes cancer.

538
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:22,360
So the question is, you know, a lot of people during my interviews or everywhere, they ask

539
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,160
me, why did high-cost hospital stop serving meat?

540
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:32,760
So I just look at them in the eye and tell them the question, shouldn't be why high-cost

541
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:40,360
hospital stop serving meat or carcinogenic food because meat has been classified as carcinogenic.

542
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:47,520
So my question should be, or question should be, why other hospitals are still offering

543
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,760
carcinogenic food to their patients?

544
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,480
Well, this is the right question that should be asked.

545
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,280
When the writings are on the wall, when the elephant is here and no one wants to look

546
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,080
at the elephant in the room, well, it's their problem.

547
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:11,320
But when meat has been classified as carcinogenic, how ethical or unethical is to have carcinogenic

548
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,120
food presented to the patients, the patients that are suffering from cancers, from chronic

549
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:21,440
diseases that have been promoted by eating this kind of food?

550
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:28,480
It's unethical, it's immoral for any hospital or any healthcare institution to be offering

551
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,400
carcinogenic food to their patients.

552
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,440
Now I completely understand the majority of hospital owners might not be vegan, which

553
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,240
is the case, I presume, because if they were, they would have done something.

554
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:47,080
But at least let them acknowledge the fact, let them acknowledge science.

555
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:53,840
When something is classified as carcinogenic, there is no room for carcinogenic food in

556
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,840
hospitals.

557
00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:01,200
I mean, if tomorrow morning the WHO classified hummus as being carcinogenic, I will be obliged

558
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:07,360
to omit hummus from our, you know.

559
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,840
So yeah, this is in a nutshell what we did with our patients.

560
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,480
Now regarding, yeah, our patients, we have our dietitian, which happens to be of course

561
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:16,480
vegan.

562
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:23,720
Her mission is first of all during our transition period, because the decision wasn't taken

563
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:26,360
from one day to another.

564
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:32,720
It took us almost two years to do a full transition during this transition period of two years.

565
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:40,200
While we used to offer both meals, plant-based and animal-based meal as an option for people

566
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,120
to choose, you know.

567
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:47,800
But during this period, our dietitian used to do her visit and try to convince people

568
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,920
on why they should be choosing this plant-based meal over the animal-based meal, plant-based

569
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,920
meal with all the benefits that you might be having with this meal versus all the dangers

570
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:06,600
and all the diseases that you are at risk while eating this kind of food.

571
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:13,480
This was as well a way to introduce the idea that high hospital is going through a transition

572
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,920
so that after two years, I decided to omit and remove completely animal products from

573
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,040
our premises.

574
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:27,240
And today, all rooms are well equipped with information that are written on walls.

575
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:34,120
I have some pamphlets that you can find in each and every patient's table.

576
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:41,120
So before eating, the patient can just flip the pamphlet and read more about the advantages

577
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:49,260
of plant-based meal versus the dangers of continuing consuming flesh and tissues.

578
00:48:49,260 --> 00:48:56,880
So the education is key for people to know why the specific hospital is doing so.

579
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:06,520
And whenever we are faced with opposition, when we present them with facts, with studies,

580
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:12,080
even though they might not like go back home and start being vegan, but at least they would

581
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,800
understand and accept because sometimes people are quite aggressive.

582
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,360
I mean, where is my piece of flesh in my meal?

583
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,560
Well, listen, your piece of flesh is carcinogenic, has been classified.

584
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,200
I really am really sorry I cannot be offering you such kind of food.

585
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:29,200
It has all the danger.

586
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:35,560
Now, if you want to go back home and eat whatever you want, I cannot tell you not to do so.

587
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:43,520
But my responsibility as a hospital, ethically, I cannot be offering you such kind of food.

588
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,320
It's the same thing as offering you a cigarette.

589
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,920
Would you be okay if I offer you a cigarette in the hospital?

590
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,360
Of course, you will find it extremely appalling.

591
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,800
So yeah, education is key.

592
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,920
Having the information for them accessible is key.

593
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,720
Our daily visits from our dietician is key as well.

594
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:12,680
So that all inquiries be answered, of course.

595
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:22,440
I heard you say the words public health, which is for me one of the strongest arguments for

596
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,560
veganism.

597
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:30,320
And I think that like many people during the pandemic, I was educated on the state of our

598
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:40,140
public health and on the risks that the big ag industry poses on our public health because

599
00:50:40,140 --> 00:50:43,360
of zoonotic diseases.

600
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:52,880
So can you comment on that and talk about the risks, those additional existential risks

601
00:50:52,880 --> 00:51:03,440
to all of humanity that big ag poses on top of all of the harm that it does in our world?

602
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:04,440
Of course.

603
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:12,520
Listen, as I mentioned earlier in our interview, as the CDC stated, more than 75% of new or

604
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:17,640
emerging infectious diseases in humans come from animals.

605
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:23,560
I mean, we should take a moment and think about it.

606
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:30,800
Now you know, with the COVID-19 pandemic, a lot of conspiracy theories popped up.

607
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:39,520
And unfortunately, I was really saddened to see some of my fellow vegan activists to adopt

608
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,320
this conspiracy theory.

609
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:50,840
Whereas we should have stick to the narrative that it emerged from a wet market, not from

610
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,680
a certain lab or whatever.

611
00:51:52,680 --> 00:52:02,120
But let me consider presumably that this specific COVID-19 was man-made and was from a lab or

612
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:03,120
whatever.

613
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,120
What about the others?

614
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:05,120
What about HIV?

615
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,120
What about MERS?

616
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,120
What about SARS?

617
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,120
What about Ebola?

618
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:09,120
What about H1N1?

619
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,120
Well, I mean, it's obvious.

620
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:13,120
It's obvious.

621
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:20,120
The way we are treating animals and the way we are eating animals leads to pandemics,

622
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,320
leads to chronic disease and leads to cancer.

623
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:34,480
So I mean, it's only logical for us to be having a rational analysis towards what we

624
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,280
witnessed lately and what we witnessed during the last decade.

625
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:45,800
I mean, it's not only limited to COVID-19, the pandemic.

626
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:52,640
And what's more absurd, Ryan, is that during the pandemic, if you can recall very well,

627
00:52:52,640 --> 00:53:01,920
they closed the so-called businesses and they kept open the so-called essential businesses.

628
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:08,640
And you know what was meant by essential businesses and what businesses were still operating?

629
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,040
Clutter houses.

630
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:17,160
The breathing grounds of viruses, of bacteria, of pandemics were still open.

631
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:23,320
They closed schools, they closed businesses, they closed universities, they closed everything

632
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:30,040
was closed, but cluster houses kept on operating, the breathing ground of pandemics.

633
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,160
We live in an absurd world.

634
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:40,920
We live in a world where they took our reasoning away from us and they reasoned on our behalf

635
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,720
and we are okay with that.

636
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:51,000
What vegans do is that they get back their reasoning and they reason for themselves.

637
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:58,760
So it's all about time to look at the facts, to look at the history of what we've been

638
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,160
going through.

639
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:04,680
And it's all about time to tackle the root cause of our problems, not just treat symptoms.

640
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:10,840
I mean, it's absurd to be treating symptoms without tackling the root cause of the problem.

641
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:19,080
Back then during the corona crisis, while everyone were, they were okay to wear masks

642
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:24,040
and wash their hands and to take some social distancing and so on and so forth, but to

643
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,560
tackle the root cause, no one wanted to tackle.

644
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,440
It was really absurd.

645
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,120
You go to a supermarket, you see people wearing masks and shopping for meat.

646
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,280
I mean, really?

647
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:43,200
So yeah, for all those reasons and more, it's all about time to reason for ourselves.

648
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:48,320
Animals are not happy to go have their throat slit.

649
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:55,480
We are not in a safe position when we are heading towards the sixth mass extinction.

650
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,320
Our environment is collapsing because of animal agriculture.

651
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:09,720
We should be true to ourselves and acknowledge that eating decaying flesh and decrescent

652
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,440
can never be beneficial to our body.

653
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,260
It's actually poison to our body.

654
00:55:16,260 --> 00:55:19,600
We should have the courage to let go of our addiction.

655
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:27,200
We should have the courage to let go of our greediness and our convenience and go back

656
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:28,200
to humanity.

657
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:33,360
You know, we have humans, but we do not have humanity, unfortunately.

658
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:43,800
Something I really wanted to ask you about is a conversation I had with the leader of

659
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:48,560
a humanitarian aid organization.

660
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:54,760
And I was talking with her and trying to convince her that veganism should be front and center

661
00:55:54,760 --> 00:56:02,240
of their worries in their activities and endeavors across the world.

662
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:09,680
And she said something that is echoed by many people in the West, which is that for some

663
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:15,420
people in the world, veganism is not part of their culture.

664
00:56:15,420 --> 00:56:21,400
And so we should not impose that culture of veganism on others.

665
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:28,640
And it feels like the same argument of there are some people who are poor and so they can't

666
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:29,640
be vegan.

667
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:37,160
What do you say about that, about the way people portray veganism as not being universal,

668
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,640
as being something Western?

669
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:46,720
Well, listen, first of all, a culture does not dictate morality.

670
00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:52,960
I mean, in other cultures, especially in the Arab world, not long ago, women were considered

671
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:53,960
as inferior.

672
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:59,840
They in Saudi Arabia, recently that women can drive cars.

673
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,640
So culture is not a good benchmark to morality.

674
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,040
We can start by answering in this way.

675
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:16,360
So I mean, in Spain, the culture is to bully, to do some bullfighting festivals and cheer,

676
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,440
and animals dying in agony.

677
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,080
This is culture as well, but does it make it moral?

678
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,520
I really doubt so.

679
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:25,880
So yeah, this is one point.

680
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,800
Now the other point that you raised, what was the question that you asked?

681
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:29,800
Larsen Well, about poverty.

682
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,360
Dr. Sajad Zalzad Yeah, poverty.

683
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,880
Of course, that veganism is not accessible to everyone, right?

684
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:37,400
Well, let me tell you something.

685
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,080
Of course, beyond meat is not accessible for everyone.

686
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,820
And by your life, cheese is not accessible for everyone, of course.

687
00:57:44,820 --> 00:57:50,240
But then again, veganism is not about neither of both, not beyond meat nor by your life.

688
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:55,320
Veganism is about the simplest food on earth that we can plant and eat.

689
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:01,960
When we're talking plant based, we're talking chickpeas, beans, legumes, rice, vegetables.

690
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,600
I mean, this is the cheapest food on earth.

691
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:13,880
And something happened in Lebanon not far now is that we had financial crisis in Lebanon.

692
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:18,120
And basically the country went bankrupt.

693
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,520
This is when the real price of items were exposed.

694
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,840
People think that meat is cheap and animal products are cheap because they might find

695
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:34,000
it $1 less expensive than their counterpart vegan version.

696
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,480
But what they don't know is that they're paying the difference out of their own tax pay, out

697
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:39,480
of their own money.

698
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,880
So basically the price that they are paying is not the correct price, but they should

699
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:50,720
add, of course, the subsidies and the taxes that they are paying indirectly.

700
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:51,720
This is one.

701
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,040
Two, it's all about demand and supply.

702
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:59,760
When the demand for vegan products increases, the cost will decrease and therefore the prices

703
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,560
will decrease as well.

704
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:10,240
And the most important argument for that is that, well, if today you pay $1 more for some

705
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:15,040
vegan products, at least you will not be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars along the

706
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:20,360
way by visiting hospitals and having to pay on your own health.

707
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,240
So it's a win-win situation for everyone.

708
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:28,680
Plant based food is the cheapest food that any country and every person can buy.

709
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:36,680
Yeah, I was telling you that what skyrocketed was the animal products like meat and dairy

710
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,360
and eggs.

711
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:48,440
We then, when the government went bankrupt, they couldn't pay the subsidies and the difference

712
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:49,440
in prices.

713
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,080
So all the prices were as is.

714
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:59,320
So this is when people realized that no, actually what's expensive is meat, the kilo of meat

715
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,960
is now skyrocketed and so on and so forth.

716
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:11,360
So out of the unfortunate financial crisis of Lebanon, the small glimpse of hope is that

717
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:18,800
people would at least realize that no, what's expensive is animal products, whether it's

718
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:25,520
paying in currency or whether it's paying in your own health care.

719
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:37,720
If I look at the generation of my grandparents, for them, meat was always the luxury good.

720
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:43,260
Vegan or vegetarian was the default way people ate.

721
01:00:43,260 --> 01:00:44,840
Meat was something extraordinary.

722
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:49,280
It happens maybe a few times a year or something.

723
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,120
It's not something you can afford eating every day.

724
01:00:54,120 --> 01:01:00,680
So yeah, it's weird how the public discourse changed on that and all of a sudden, veganism

725
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,840
is considered luxurious.

726
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:11,640
So you talked about how you felt obligated to become an activist.

727
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:20,880
And I wonder, what is your message to the vegans out there who are more quiet and don't

728
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:27,880
really engage in activism work or any kind of actions for animal rights?

729
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:34,520
Well, first of all, I would like to thank them that they themselves, they stopped consuming

730
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,060
animal products, which is a valid point.

731
01:01:37,060 --> 01:01:43,360
And then again, once you know the truth, you have the responsibility to forward the truth

732
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,720
and not keep it to yourself.

733
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:47,920
You have doubled the responsibility because now you know.

734
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,140
It's not that you don't know, you know.

735
01:01:50,140 --> 01:01:52,440
So you should not keep it to yourself.

736
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:57,040
If you are spending animal lives, you know how to do that.

737
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,800
Well, you should tell others how to do it as well.

738
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:08,280
So for my fellow quiet vegans, I really encourage you guys to be vegan.

739
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,080
Vegan is not just for yourself.

740
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,320
Maybe if you were plant based, I would completely understand.

741
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:17,040
Plant based, you are worried about your health and your personal well-being.

742
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,400
Whereas when you're vegan, you are worried about others and you have empathy towards

743
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,880
what we are doing to those animals.

744
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,640
So a true vegan is never quiet.

745
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,240
A plant based person can be quiet.

746
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:37,360
Of course, a vegan should be outspoken and he should be true to himself, true to others,

747
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:43,120
true to the message that he's trying to deliver and not worry much about hurting others feelings

748
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:48,820
as much as worry how to be a good defender to those animals.

749
01:02:48,820 --> 01:02:54,520
Did you have something to add George before we stopped the recording?

750
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:59,280
Listen, first of all, I was very pleased to be talking to you.

751
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:04,200
Your questions are really, really interesting and not common questions that I do receive

752
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:05,760
from other interviews.

753
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:10,360
So I really congratulate you on that.

754
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:19,000
Now for our community and for the people who are listening, listen guys, try not to deviate

755
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,520
and think about branches.

756
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:29,440
I mean, forget about protein, forget about tradition, forget about Jesus ate fish, forget

757
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:37,480
about halal, forget about calcium, forget about everything that you might think of.

758
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:43,040
Just resume it to what happens at the end.

759
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:47,640
Go and visit your nearest slaughterhouse.

760
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:48,640
Witness what happens.

761
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:53,240
Witness the preparation of the meat that you can have in an hour or so.

762
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:59,480
Again, if what you see doesn't reflect the person that you are, you should have a moral

763
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,800
position towards what you witnessed.

764
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:07,120
Again, if what you see you're completely fine with it, stop wasting your time listening

765
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:11,760
to some other podcasts and excuse me if I wasted your time.

766
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,720
So this comes to that.

767
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,840
Veganism is no rocket science.

768
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:21,160
It's not something difficult to grasp, to understand, to do.

769
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:23,480
Go see for yourself what you're funding.

770
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:24,480
If you're okay, continue.

771
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,000
If you're not, you should go vegan.

772
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,480
And how can we support the mission of your organization?

773
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:39,320
Well, listen, people can follow us on social media, of course, and they can check our website.

774
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:46,000
We have a donation link for everyone who would want to donate, as I mentioned, all the proceeds

775
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:51,960
that we are having or gathering from the boutique or the cafe, or even the donations that we

776
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:52,960
are receiving.

777
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,160
They go to fund our relief program, of course, and our activism campaign.

778
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:05,760
So I am very grateful to everyone who is visiting our hub, ordering some delicious food, buying

779
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,680
some stuff from the boutique or even donating from abroad.

780
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:17,400
You guys are really exceptional and you really give us the push and the motivation we need

781
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,680
to continue what we're doing.

782
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:28,840
Do you expect Lebanese vegans to grow and maybe enter new Arab countries?

783
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,440
Well, I hope so.

784
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:31,440
I hope so.

785
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:33,680
This is my aim as Lebanese vegan.

786
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:41,040
And then again, since I have quite a raw and direct approach, maybe I'll have some difficulties

787
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:46,840
to grow even more than I've grown so far, because now maybe the ones that are still

788
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:53,520
speaking to Lebanese vegans, they are true vegans, in my humble opinion.

789
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:59,360
And I figured that true vegans are really the minority out there.

790
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:06,040
So yeah, I hope that we will be able to reach other countries, but maybe in my, as I mentioned,

791
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,000
in my approach, it's going to be a bit difficult.

792
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:13,720
I should be more lenient and more gentle in my approach, which is not me.

793
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:15,640
I can never be that.

794
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,160
So I keep it the way it is.

795
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:22,040
And if it has to grow, it will grow.

796
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:25,240
If not, well, it's the destiny of Lebanese vegans.

797
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,520
But at least I'll be true to myself.

798
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,320
And this is the biggest satisfaction.

799
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:30,320
More than to grow.

800
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:34,680
I really do not care to grow as much as to be true to myself and true to the message

801
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,440
that I'm delivering.

802
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:45,040
Well at least the content you are developing is partly, I guess, in Arabic, which has this

803
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:53,240
access point for Arab speakers around the world who do not necessarily have much vegans

804
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,920
talking to them in their language.

805
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:03,840
But of course your hospital should be the blueprint for hospitals all around the world.

806
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:12,360
The plant-based vegan program that you have launched in the hospitals should be studied.

807
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:19,480
Have you had any vegan activists come visit you in Beirut and visit the hospital?

808
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:20,480
Of course.

809
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:21,480
Of course.

810
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:27,360
The international community was much more impressed by our transition than our local

811
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,040
community.

812
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:34,480
They figured out that it was quite a bold move on my part.

813
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:41,080
I received a lot of people who are interested to visit Lebanon, and they did actually.

814
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:48,240
And the last person who visited Lebanon was a European MP who was conducting a documentary.

815
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,440
He's Portuguese, by the way.

816
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,120
His name is Francisco Guerrero.

817
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:59,360
He came over to Lebanon with Hugo, which is the film director.

818
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:06,080
So they shot the scene in Lebanon regarding the hospital, which they included in their

819
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,920
documentary.

820
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:15,000
And I had another person visiting me as well doing a documentary in veganism.

821
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:20,080
He wanted to add the section of the very first vegan hospital in the world.

822
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:27,240
So yeah, we received a lot of positive feedback on that as being the first hospital to do

823
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:28,240
so.

824
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:32,800
But really what will bring me the biggest satisfaction is not that to be labeled as

825
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:34,160
being the very first hospital.

826
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:39,920
I really don't care about labels as much as I care to influence others so that others

827
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,040
would follow sooner than later.

828
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,680
Those are great parting words.

829
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:48,320
George, you are a vegan giant.

830
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:54,160
Thank you so much for your time, for having accepted my invitation and answered my questions.

831
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:55,160
Thank you so much.

832
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,560
Well, Ryan, it was a pleasure talking to you.

833
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,400
I wish you the best of luck with your podcast.

834
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:08,040
You have a very interesting lineup of questions, which are quite different and not cliché,

835
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,800
you know, because I'm quite used to some cliche questions.

836
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,840
No, you dig deeper and differently.

837
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,280
So thumbs up.

838
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,160
Thank you everyone for listening.

839
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:22,040
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans, you know, let's encourage

840
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,640
more people to take action.

841
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:51,640
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.