Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.
Today we are going to talk about one of the most beautiful vegan initiative out there,
the Art of Compassion Project.
If you get the chance to visit their website, and there is a link in the description below,
this is what you will read.
The Art of Compassion Project is an international art collective, supported by over a hundred
artists from 28 countries that aims to support the compassionate lifestyle of veganism by
donating a hundred percent of proceeds from various art projects to non-profit vegan organizations.
Through this effort, we also aim to build a strong international community of vegan
artists who share the same vision to use their art as a mean to spread the vegan message.
To discuss this initiative, I have with me Helen Barker, an artist and the UK team leader
and event coordinator of Art of Compassion Project, and Francisco Atencio, also an artist
and graphic designer for the organization.
Welcome to the show Helen and Frank, thank you so much for having accepted my invitation.
Thank you so much.
Thank you Ryan.
It's really exciting to be able to talk about the Art of Compassion Project because it is
a passion, I know, for myself and I'm sure for Frank also.
Thank you.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for inviting us.
It's a pleasure.
Amazing.
And for disclosure, this is the second time we meet and have this conversation.
The first time we had some major technical problems, and so you generously accepted to
do it again, give it another try, and thank you for that.
So my first question for you is, how did your path cross with the Art of Compassion Project?
How did you discover the Art of Compassion Project, fell in love with the initiative
and decided to give time and effort to make it a success?
Helen, let's start with you.
So I discovered the project in 2017.
I was at a little gallery in London where I was actually displaying my first ever animal
rights art that I'd done.
And there were two members of the Art of Compassion Project doing a presentation there about the
groups.
And I was quite tentative about my AR art then, you know, it was my first foray into
it and I'd always done a lot of art, but I was just for myself.
And I always, always painted and drew and sculpted animals, you know, that's my thing.
I was so intrigued by this Art of Compassion, so I spoke to them both after the event.
And I just thought, this sounds like a really safe space for an artist to go who wants to
be active with their art.
And it's just the only thing you have to be to join is to be vegan.
You don't even have to be a great artist or a professional or anything.
They just want people who make art who are vegan.
So I thought, yeah, I'm going to be at home with like minded people here.
So I joined straight away.
And the other thing which you've just mentioned in that lovely introduction was that I was
just bowled over by the fact that all of the projects raise funds for vegan initiatives,
as well as kind of like working for the animals.
So I just thought this is an all round good thing to do.
So I joined and it all went from there.
Amazing.
What about you, Francisco?
In my case, it was like two or three years before I'm one of the first members there.
It was like, I don't know, like nine or 10 years ago, I don't recall exactly.
But by that time I was painting and drawing just like a hobby.
I was doing mostly pet portraits, you know, cats and dogs.
And I saw a post on Facebook about the art of compassion.
They were looking for artists who wanted to draw or paint or to spread the message of
love toward animals.
And they were planning to publish a book.
So I thought, well, maybe this is a, it seems a nice thing, right?
Because it was like they were calling people from all over the world.
I'm from Argentina.
Here in Argentina it's not easy to speak for the animals.
So it was like a way I could spread the message in a better way, you know?
So I filled in the form and I sent, by that time I only had one picture, one painting
of a cow besides cats and dogs.
So I sent that photo.
And that's how I started with the art of compassion.
Then the book, they took like two or three more years to be published.
But it was a great beginning because a lot of artists joined at that time.
So it was not only the book, it was like the yearly calendar, a lot of exhibitions and
Beggy Fest.
So that first year, I don't recall, but maybe I submitted my painting for like four or six
projects.
And it was like a kickoff for me for start painting not only pets, but for animal rights,
you know?
And even to see pets in a different way, we don't call them pets anymore.
They are companion animals.
It was like a breakthrough to me.
I changed my way of thinking on what I eat to be more in the cause for animal rights.
It was like the perfect time for me.
So I'm very thankful to the art of compassion.
Both of you have talked about submitting art.
How do you deal with the outside view of the critical view that can come with someone who
looks at a piece of art that you have worked with in the intimacy of your home and of your
mind?
And I want to know how you overcame that fear of judgment from others.
Frank, would you like to start?
Yes.
I don't know.
In my case, I draw or paint from the heart.
Maybe they are not perfect, but when you have something so strong inside you that you have
to let it out, you have a message to deliver and to do it in a passionate way, the results
are going to be good.
Of course, not everybody is going to like them.
Or if you are talking, I don't know, issues like slaughterhouse or I don't know, well,
animals used in different ways, animals seen as products.
There are a lot of people that get very uncomfortable with this kind of art.
But in my case, I don't want people to feel bad.
I just want to share my point of view, my way of living.
And we can't, I don't know, make everybody happy.
But if you do it from the heart, it's going to be okay.
You are not going to feel down for the critics or for people that say that something shouldn't
be shown.
What about you, Helen?
Do you think about the people who are going to see your art when you are in that creative
space and painting?
Yeah, definitely.
I agree with Frank.
I think, like I said, I haven't made artwork for years and years for myself.
The reason it's been for myself is because I don't want to show it to people because
I don't want criticism.
But there's something completely different.
You cross a different line when you are doing artwork that has got a really important message.
Because it becomes about, you know you are going to get attacked by people for the message.
That's a given.
I don't care what people think of the artwork itself.
And because they are so taken up with the message, they don't really care either.
So you don't get that same feeling of having your art critiqued because it's a piece of
work that's about a really important issue.
So it's always good.
It's exactly what Frank says, always good.
You can't wait to get it out there once you've done it.
Because it's all the words and all the research and all the passion you've had in your heart
that you've put into this piece of work.
You can't wait to share that.
And I never felt like that about artwork pre-animal rights artwork.
Yeah, I can't wait to share a piece.
And I want people to react.
And I want farmers to jump on my page and have a rage at me.
I want all of that.
Because that's the conversation.
We need to be having the conversations.
You know, I'm not a great public speaker.
I'm not great at kind of like going out on the street talking to people or even having
kind of like one to one conversations really.
But I can speak through my art.
So I'm excited to be able to do that.
So I never feel daunted about it anymore.
When I think about artists, I think about people who are very individualistic in a way
that have a big personality and they are maybe a bit, you know, eccentric or they have this
creative spirit to them.
So how does it work to have a collective and make those big personalities work together?
Is it hard?
Yeah, it's it's I've never I've never worked in another art sphere.
So I don't really I don't really know.
I probably have an idea of artists to like to.
But there is something really unique about this group that there has never been anything
like that.
Yeah.
And we have we have a really wide range of people.
We have hobbyist artists.
We have professionals, you know, literally make their living from artwork.
There has never been a single sniff of that, as far as I can tell, because it's the place
it's coming from.
And a lot of them make professional artwork, which has nothing to do with animal rights.
And they do they do the they do the art of compassion stuff in their spare time, what
they would call their spare time.
I've never met any divas in the group.
Everyone just gets it.
You know, we all submit our artwork.
We all hope that it's going to be seen and, you know, it might sell and make some money.
And none of us are making any money.
And quite often the artists usually pay to have the prints done for the poster shows
that we do at the exhibition.
So it's it is purely just a giving ethos, really.
So yeah, I think if there are any divas, they leave that stuff at home when they come to
the art of compassion.
I wouldn't know if they were like that, because everyone is just generous and kind and sharing
genuinely.
It sounds really cheesy.
But well, I'm hearing you talk and you have this big smile on your face.
Is it does it give you joy to to give time and this much energy to the art of compassion
project?
Yeah.
I think the reason that I'm the UK event coordinator is because I'm the one who always jumps up
and down and puts my hand up and says, oh, I'll do that.
I'll do that.
And I just love it.
I just I love on so many levels.
You know, personally, I like the work.
I like organizing and I like collating everything and organizing the event.
But, you know, meeting people, meeting so many people who are, you know, you can I can
be displaying work from sort of 100 artists.
I can be there can be 200 separate pieces of artwork from 100 artists at one of the
exhibitions.
And that feels like a privilege to me to be curating that.
I would never I would never have that opportunity in anywhere else in my life.
So it's given me something, even though it's voluntary, you know, and I, you know, I don't
even break even when I do these events.
But but I just love them.
I would do as many as I you know, as I physically could in the year, really, which isn't isn't
that many because real life gets in the way.
But yeah, it is a it is a real privilege to, yeah, to have that position and and to work
with the volunteers and to hear people talking about the artwork and how it moves them.
So you just can't get better.
There's nothing like it.
Amazing.
Frank, you're one of those artists that Helen talked about who does it for a living.
And your journey is quite special because you were a computer engineer and you decided
to put that aside to concentrate on art.
So can you tell us about your personal journey relating to art?
Yes, it's a crazy journey.
It was not from one day to the other, it was like a long journey.
I was working in a in different offices and I don't know, full time jobs as a software
developer.
And I started to feel that all my energy and all my creativity.
I was giving it to to people that I don't even know and people that I am just doing
business.
So at first I started to attend art classes after my job was done every day, like a hobby,
like a way of surviving this crazy system we live in.
And it felt, I felt that I needed more than that.
I started to feel that it was more than a hobby.
So when I saw that I could draw or paint in a, I don't know, acceptable way, I decided
to quit my full time job and started a part time job, again as a software developer.
And started to, as I told before, I started doing portraits and that was, it was not a
big income, but it was a way that I could, I don't know, do something that I love and
earn some money.
But I learned some new skills in this adventure of painting.
But I felt that it wasn't enough half a day, so like three years ago I quit my half time,
my part time job and decided to devote myself to painting, drawing, and I do some work of
graphic design.
I'm a graphic designer as well.
It's been amazing because when you think that you cannot, I don't know, you don't have
the money for the half of the month, a new job appears, a new commission appears.
I've been doing it for three years, so I think I'll keep doing it for the rest of my life.
I'm very grateful because I can live off what I love.
Most of my work is related to animal rights.
I've illustrated a couple of kid books.
I made a couple of illustrations for vegan groups or in your case for your podcast, but
I love to work with you.
So yes, it's been amazing.
One thing is that I was able to do this because of my family, because they joined me in this
crazy idea and they support me.
Maybe we are all the time a bit short of money, but I see my kids, they draw or paint along
with me.
Before that I was all the time, I was doing homework.
It was like I was all day sitting in a desk and they came back from school and I was there.
They came later and I was there.
I didn't want to raise my kids in that way.
I wanted them to see that his dad is doing the things that he loves and that they can
do the same.
Of course we love to travel more or have a newer car, but I'm happy and I think they
are happy too in this way.
People should know that you're the one who designed the logo of this podcast.
Well, not the logo, it's called the cover art of this show.
Commenting on what you said, it takes a lot of courage to pursue your passion and sacrifice
your day job for what you really believe in and what you love.
How old were you when you made that transition?
I started the transition like 10 years ago.
It was by the time I knew the Art of Compassion project.
It was like I said before, it was an inspiration, this project.
By that time I started to paint more related to animal rights.
Yes, 10 years and it was like 15 years from now that I think I took my first art class.
I was 35 or 34 by that time.
I quit my job when I was 45.
You're never too old to make big changes to your life and to pursue your dream or to do
what you really love.
I did it.
It wasn't easy, but I did it.
It's truly inspiring.
Helen, what was it for you?
How did you discover that you had this passion for art and that you wanted to pursue that?
My two passions ever since I could walk was animals and making marks on things and drawing
whatever animals I could find.
But I never did anything with it.
I did art at school and I failed.
That stopped me for a little while.
That's the power of criticism, you see.
But I've always kept doing it for myself.
Same as Frank.
I did it in bits and pieces, but I've never done so much since I joined the Art of Compassion.
Frank said a lovely thing, calling it the adventure of painting.
I've just found it, that's a really interesting word, because I have found it such an adventure,
learning how to do art because I wanted to do it better, because I wanted to do it better
for the animals.
I've taught myself different skills actually and done different things, sculpting 3D animals
and all sorts of things that I wouldn't have done before.
Yeah, it's amazing once you've got an outlet that just comes from the centre of your chest.
That's you, you're done then and you'll be doing it for the rest of your life.
I can't imagine doing anything different.
I don't make a living from it.
I make a few bags of chicken feed from it at the very most.
That's enough for me.
Because you also have a micro sanctuary.
Yeah, I do.
My seven chickens, my two sheep, my little friends who I care for, the survivors, I call
them.
I also want to ask both of you a last question about the artist before we talk about the
art and the cause.
How was it in terms of the reaction of your family and friends looking at you starting
this journey, this art journey and pursuing your passion and drawing animals and getting
involved with the Art of Compassion project?
Let's start with you Helen.
What was the reaction of your loved ones?
Yeah, well, it's a tricky thing because your loved ones are the hardest ones to change,
aren't they?
It's universally known that they're the most difficult people to persuade about veganism.
You think they're going to be the easiest and they're really not.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
I think they are proud of the fact that I'm following my passion.
They have said to me, oh, it's a shame that you don't do proper art, real art.
And I say, what do you mean?
And they say, well, just not that scary stuff, not that judgy stuff.
And my art is not judgy.
I don't do anything graphic and awful to sort of frighten people.
I like to think my art is educational.
But yeah, it's that disparate thing between vegans and non-vegans.
So yeah, I would say the reception has not been what I wanted it to be.
But you understand that because you know that your loved ones, no matter what.
And I know they're proud of me deep down.
Yeah.
What about you, Frank?
In my case, well, like I said before, my family is very supportive about it.
I live in a little place.
There are like three or four houses, all relatives.
And we are all vegetarian or vegan.
And it's like a little bubble because outside of that is a very different world.
For instance, my friends from the college or from previous office jobs, they don't get
it.
Why I eat the way that I eat?
Why I'm trying to do a living of art in Argentina that's crazy?
We are always in a deep crisis, economical crisis.
And it sounds crazy.
They are doing very, very well.
Most of them have their jobs of software developers or engineers.
And most of them, they are doing very well.
They have their fancy car.
And we are still friends and we hang out.
We laugh.
They laugh at my meal.
When we gather for a dinner, always barbecue, of course.
I do my baggies, my vegan stuff.
But it's nice because it's always an opportunity to chat about it.
They are very curious of what I eat, how I'm still alive, not eating big pieces of meat.
They are very nice, but I see that they don't get what I'm doing.
But I don't know, the family support is very important.
Without them, I don't know if I could have done this.
I want to now talk about the art and its importance.
And I want to start by talking about what different art you're making.
And the other artists of the Art of Compassion project are making.
Because animals have been a subject in art since the dawn of humanity.
We've drawn animals on the walls of caves.
And I want to understand how you see vegan art as being different from how we portray
animals, how we have portrayed animals in our culture, and what makes vegan art so special.
So maybe Helen, would you like to answer the question first?
Yes, one of my favourite subjects actually is how we've addressed our relationship with
other animals.
Since we first started to draw them on cave walls, if indeed that was our first foray
into that.
Their images, not only are we used, we use their image without their consent always,
of course.
They're so part of the fabric of our lives now.
They are on everything, you can't buy anything without the image of an animal on there, the
effigy of an animal, whether it's an insect or a bird.
And they become invisible, I think.
They become unseen, misunderstood.
They are just a two-dimensional effigy of themselves.
No matter how beautiful that art is, and there is some incredibly beautiful animal art all
over the world, and some of it ancient and very moving.
But I think for a vegan artist or an animal rights artist, as I call myself, it's just
not enough to portray them beautifully.
You have to portray them with integrity and honesty, and you have to speak about their
lived experiences and who they are, who they are, not what they are.
And yeah, I think that's what I try to do with my art.
I don't want to make pretty pictures.
I want to make pictures that are well put together, but it needs to speak for the animals.
So I think it's really important for us as artists to not make art about animals, but
to really make sure we make it for them.
Because we're speaking their voice, which we don't know if we're speaking it right,
but we're just trying to.
We've heard the expression, voice for the voiceless, which I don't feel comfortable
with that because they speak their own voices all the time.
It's just that we don't understand them properly.
And we don't take the time to understand them.
So I think that's our job, to make people see deeper than any artwork they've ever looked
at before.
So those animals, you know, become more visible to us as people, you know, because they are
just people there, other nations.
So that's our job, I think.
I get from what you said that the purpose of animal rights art is to build a bridge
between us and the rest of the animal kingdom, to highlight their reality instead of exploiting
that reality or their image for transmitting maybe other ideas or pursuing another message
or emotion.
So did I get it right?
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so much more to them than even showing, you know, graphic footage of
what happens to them.
I think people need to connect with them on a much deeper level than just seeing them
suffer because that's not the full picture.
The full picture is they have really rich emotional lives, every, you know, all of them,
you know, the tiniest fishes in the sea, the insects, everyone.
And that's, I think, what we need to somehow get across in our artwork.
And I think, you know, we need to try and draw that empathy out, people.
It's a real challenge, actually.
I think that's why I'm not very prolific in my art because I spend a lot of time on the
nuances of, you know, I'm thinking about my audience all the time when I'm making a piece
of work.
And of course, my audience have a completely different mindset to me.
So it's a challenge to come up with a piece that it already speaks to you so you don't
have a problem with it.
But you've got to think about how it presents, you know, say I'm drawing a pig.
I'm working for the pig as far as I'm concerned.
I'm like their lawyer or something, you know, so I don't want to misrepresent them because
my job is to represent them correctly.
Yeah.
So that's how I feel like when I'm making work.
And yeah, it feels like a challenge.
It really does.
It's one we relish, obviously.
But yeah, I think we really need to think about getting it right.
You made a comment and I want to get back to it.
In the animal rights movement, we tend to promote visuals of animals suffering.
For instance, footage of animals in signs of slaughterhouses.
Are we using those images maybe too much or too freely?
Is it harming in any way the animal rights cause to put the accent on those kinds of
images and portrayals of animals?
What I'm thinking about right now is Oxfam.
I volunteered for Oxfam for many, many years.
And one of the employees there told me once, you know, we used to use a lot of pictures
of people suffering, you know, hungry and destitute in refugee camps.
And that would get a lot of traction and we would get lots of money, you know, fundraising
using those images.
But we realized that there was a bad side to it, that we were taking away the humanity
of those people, showing them as victims when they were more than that.
And that portrayal was actually in a way harmful.
And so we started thinking of balancing the way we visualize and to show people in poor
countries with a smile and with dignity and not in the worst state they're in.
So what would you have to say about that?
Yeah, it is a tricky one to answer.
And I've listened to lots of debates about it and lots of lost arguments about it.
I really like the Oxfam analogy, actually, even though it's slightly different for humours,
because we can empathize with them straight away because they are our species.
We understand them.
People don't empathize with other animals in the same way because they don't have any
concept of the fact that they have the same feelings.
So I think portraying violent images of what human animals go through and other animals,
it does have a nuanced difference to it.
But I absolutely, I would never, I would personally never show something that was really graphic
suffering for that exact reason.
I don't want to portray them as victims.
I would rather speak about their similarities to humans, how they suffer, how they feel
joy and love and they have families who they care for.
I would rather lift them up to what people think is something that is only particular
to humans.
I would rather lift all animals up to that same status than to make them look like victims
of humans, to portray their potential.
So I dare say there is a place for it.
I don't think, I think I know people who have turned vegan because they saw those things
and you can't argue with that.
But I think like anything else, it has to be a balance.
And I think if it's balanced out with lots of other ways to be active for animals, then
perhaps it works.
We're never going to be perfect.
We've got to try everything that we can in the toolbox.
But sometimes I even think there's too much of it on social media, but that's maybe just
my particular choice of what I'd like to see and not.
Yeah.
Well, what about you, Frank?
What is your take on this whole issue?
What makes animal rights art different?
And what is, you know, I guess its place in the world of art?
Yes, I agree with all that Helen said.
It's not easy to find a balance in what we should show about animals if they show them
suffering or enjoying life.
In my case, I try to always show them in a happy way, in a happy place, like Helen said,
in a way that people can see that animals share with us a lot of things, that animals
enjoy life, that they want to live, that they will fight to be alive.
And if you see my artwork, in most of the cases, they are happy.
Another message that I try to deliver through my art is that we are a part of nature.
We are not owners of nature.
We are not allowed to use nature for our benefit.
That we have to learn to live with nature and in nature and to share this beautiful
world with the rest of the animals and the trees and all of the wonderful things we have.
That's another thing that I try to show through my art.
Returning to your question, I think it's quite new what we are trying to do, to use art with
a message from the animals.
Helen said not to paint animals, but to speak for them.
I think it's, I don't know if it's done before, because art has always been about mankind,
you know, talking about their beliefs or their culture or their gods.
But now we are taking art to a different place.
It's quite new and it's very, very nice and very happy to see that a lot of artists are
doing this today.
And not only painting, you have a lot of singers now or actors that are talking, they are giving
voice to animals.
We have a lot of movies now.
The other day I was watching with my daughter, she's nine years old.
I was watching Chicken Run with her and she loves that movie.
And it's very, the message that I deliver is very strong.
They show chickens with personality, with names.
They are individuals.
They are very different.
They enjoy life.
They fight.
They argue with each other.
But then they come up with a plan to save.
At the beginning they are trying to save one little chicken, but at the end they ended
up saving all the chickens they can.
It's very nice to see that kind of art in popular media.
Art can also be used to promote the opposite message.
And I'm talking here about animal exploitation.
When I go grocery shopping and I pass next to the egg aisle and the milk aisle, I see
lots of images, beautiful drawing of cows and chickens living happily.
And that is all used to hide a truly disgusting and horrifying reality and to make those products
more attractive to consumers, to make them forget where those products really come from.
And I guess you are in a way competing against that art, competing against that message.
So I want to get your opinion on that kind of art.
Frank, what is your reaction to those kinds of drawings when you go grocery shopping or
when you encounter an ad on TV or things like that?
Yes, I love to punch them in the face.
It's disgusting.
I usually go shopping or to the grocery with my kids.
It's not a nice thing, but at the same time it's an opportunity to speak about it, to
show them that that's not the truth.
And the truth is that animals suffered a lot to be there.
Of course, I don't show my kids footage of slaughterhouse or things like that, but I
let them know that that's not the truth.
The happy cows and pigs running in a green field, they don't live like that, I told them.
So it is what it is.
It's going to be there for a long time.
The only thing that we can do is that it's encouraging us to paint or to work more for
the animals and to speak about it, not only with the kids, but I don't know, with friends
telling them, did you believe these lies?
Take the positive part of it, it's like an excuse to talk about it.
What about you, Helen?
How can artists like you and Frank support that kind of message and participate in making
that kind of art for such bloodthirsty industries?
Yeah, another one of my favourite subjects, as far as my art is concerned, is that I do
try to make artwork that tips that on its head.
Of course, as much as in the climate movement, we know about greenwashing, and we now have
this term humane washing, which is exactly what you're talking about when you talk about
the happy egg packages and the lovely happy pictures of cows eating grass, which as we
know is all a complete fallacy.
But that's in the human psyche.
That's why people think that it's okay, because they're all treated humanely and they must
be having a great time and nothing bad happens to them ever.
And then their lives are ended and it's fine.
So our work has to turn that on its head.
I love to use that and I've done quite a bit of artwork about making my own little fake
meat packages that look just like a meat packet, but they've got a picture of the animal inside
the packet with their face looking out and it's got just some truth about who they are
on the packet.
So I actually directly try to address that with some of my work to kick out the humane
washing.
But yeah, that's pretty much what we're doing, isn't it?
We're trying to turn all of those narratives that we've all been brought up with since
we were kids, we're trying to turn those narratives on their head.
And that's a big job because there's a lot of them, isn't there?
It's just we are bombarded with it.
And if you think we've got to make a counterpiece for everything that we see, yeah, it's a good
job.
There's more of us all the time because there's a lot of work to do.
Talking about those narratives, there is the weird fact, fascinating fact in a way that
animals are used as insults in our language.
And how can we take individuals and living creatures and reduce them to basically an
insult?
My question is really, first of all, why?
How come we got there?
And also, can you concretely give an example of what you did to break away some of those
animals from their prison of metaphorical prison, for the prison of meaning that we
have imposed on them?
Maybe starting with you, Helen.
Yeah, the language is so interesting.
And even when you've been vegan a long time, you can suddenly find yourself using a term,
not like a very negative one, but even just sick as a dog.
It's not something we shouldn't be using them as a yardstick for being sick.
And again, we're indoctrinated, aren't we?
That's in our language.
It's in our language.
And it's very hard to even shift it in yourself when you know that that is speciesist language.
I think you have to find it in yourself first and then think, oh, OK, I need to stop doing
those things myself.
I have made some artwork that challenges it, but it's a tricky one.
It's a really tricky one to perform with art.
You know, I dare say maybe written word is better because I really struggle to represent
it visually in a piece of artwork.
But I certainly I try never to use it and I correct people all the time.
And I do it kindly.
I'm trying to make people realise, whether they're vegan or non-vegan, that that language
is old school.
It's inappropriate now.
And I think the more that I can do that, the more people are going to, it's just going
to sink in.
So it's that that's a long journey.
That's a really long journey.
But yeah, I'm still I'm still working hard on making art to challenge that without using
without using words.
Yeah.
So I'll let you know when I've come up with something, you'll be the first to hear.
Yes, please.
What about you, Frank?
What is your opinion on the topic?
Yes, we have in Spanish a lot of work related to animals in a in a bad sense, in a bad way.
It's a cultural thing.
But I don't know, I try to correct my kids when they use it.
For instance, it's always very common to say that someone is a pig when they are, I don't
know, very dirty.
And I try to teach to teach them that pigs, in fact, they are very, very clean in nature.
We seem dirty in farms because they don't live the way nature intended for them.
In nature, they they have their place to to sleep.
They have their place to to bath in mood to refresh themselves.
And they have another place to to make beef and poop.
But in a farm, they don't have space, they have to do everything in those tiny, tiny
cases or spaces.
And again, I try to find a way to turn that bad thing in a I don't know, in a in a positive
way to try to learn first myself things and then try to teach something to to the people
that I care.
You know, in your in our case, Frank, you're the one who made the cover art for the vegan
report.
And we see there a pig.
And you know, at first, I was hesitant to adopt it as cover art, because there was an
image of a pig on that cover art.
And that was surprising to me, even after so many years of being vegan, celebrating
now nine years, I still had that feeling of uncomfortable being uncomfortable and, you
know, uneasy with having a pig representing a project I'm passionate about because pigs
are dirty pigs are insults pigs are even perverted.
You know, that's what I associate with pigs.
And at the end, I chose that cover art for that very reason, because I felt uneasy with
that art, because it made me uncomfortable.
Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it?
And it's really interesting.
The last piece of artwork I did, which was for the art of compassion last year, we were
doing a submission for the London show, which was all about the marine world.
And because fishes are so unrepresented, and I wanted to do a piece about bycatch.
You've heard of you know, bycatches or all the little people in the sea that get caught,
and they're not the target species.
So I was researching bycatch, and I realized I was doing a really speciesist thing because
I was I was looking at the sort of the megafauna and the and the really, the really iconic
species or the protected species, you know, seals or whales or sharks, you know, the numbers
are horrific.
And then I thought, what am I doing?
This is about the fishes.
That's that's a much bigger number of individuals.
Even myself at this late stage in my 27 years vegan, I was still being speciesist myself.
So that was so interesting to me to discover that.
And I ended up doing a piece about about the fishes who are caught in the nets and not
the bycatch.
But yeah, it's a challenge, but it's good.
We're here to challenge each other.
And that's why it's good to talk about it, isn't it?
It sparks those little things in your brain that make you change and make you make you
be better.
And that language is used to distance ourselves for animals.
And I suppose our language is art.
And we're using using it to bring them closer to us and try and undo some of that indoctrination
that we've had since the agricultural revolution.
Probably 10,000 years ago, we've been using language to distance animals from us.
So yeah, we got an uphill struggle.
Well thank you for sharing that.
Because it makes me feel better.
Yeah, I genuinely was fascinated by it.
And it really spurred me to do a really complicated piece with lots of little fishes instead of
you know, so beautiful shark.
Yeah, so it was good for me.
It was a good poke for me.
Frank, are you also surprising yourself being specious in your outlook sometimes?
Yes, we are always learning for the cover art for the postcard, some inside information
that the pig was there at first for a mistake, because I was trying to make like a background
with the silhouette of many farm animals.
I had my cow, the calf, some ducks there.
And I was looking for a reference image of the pig and I put it there.
And it was so big that it covered the whole screen.
And I thought that's it.
This is a strong image.
The pig, the little piggy on front, looking at the viewers and telling us, hey, I'm here.
Now I'm happy because it's an image of a free pig, a piglet.
But he's been in a slaughterhouse.
He's been freed from there.
And I'm very glad you liked it, because when I saw that image, I thought it was the one
that I was looking for.
And thankfully, you liked it a lot.
It's a really joyful image.
I just love it.
It's one of those things you could easily see like on a meat packet, you know, that's
the tragic thing.
But it isn't.
It's a real story about joy.
And that's a beautiful image.
There is the detail of the ear tag and the ears being cut.
And I wanted that as a little reminder of where that pig came from, which he escaped.
And on the ear tag, there is the number 100, and it's also a clue to tell people, you know,
there are 99 other pigs that are stuck in that nightmare.
So yeah, I did love the image.
Thank you, Frank.
Thank you.
So I want to talk about something we mentioned at the beginning, something you participated
in, Frank, which is the Art of Compassion book, which is a compilation collection of
some of the most beautiful animal rights artwork out there, which is available for order on
Amazon.
Helen, can you tell us a little bit about that book and how we can get it?
Yeah, the book is probably the crowning glory, really, because that was when Lee set up the
Art of Compassion.
It was just with a view to making a book.
And I think she got so overwhelmed with so many artists joining and realized that it
wasn't just going to be a little tiny pamphlet.
It was going to be a big book.
That's when all the other projects came to light.
And it's actually kind of helped the Art of Compassion to grow to much more than a book.
But the book has, I can't remember, I should have looked it up, but it has a phenomenal
amount of images in it.
It's beautiful, beautiful, heavy book.
You can only buy it through Amazon at the moment.
The reason for that, even though Amazon has its issues, as many of us know, was that it
was going to just cost so much money to present a book with that much artwork in that had
good enough quality printing.
To print colour on every single page, it would have been prohibitive.
And the Art of Compassion is a non-profit.
We don't make any money.
So there wasn't funds to do it.
And Amazon was the only place that came up with that you could buy it and print on demand.
So it was quite an easy thing to do.
It took a long, long time.
And I think it's only been out four years or maybe it came out 2019.
That's another thing I've got to look up.
So my apologies.
So yeah, it did take quite a lot of years to put together, but it's got poetry in it.
It's got personal stories from artists and just such a huge range of artwork.
There's really, really something for everyone.
It doesn't have a lot of graphic stuff in, so it makes a really good coffee table book
as well.
You can leave it out and think it's really going to touch people rather than offend people,
is how I view it.
So yeah, it's a masterful little piece of work.
And yeah, you can buy it on Amazon in most countries, I think, actually.
Yeah.
So I think it even has its own website, which you can link through the Art of Compassion
project website.
So have a look.
Yes, I ordered the book and I'm looking forward to getting it.
I'm truly excited to open it and discover the many images that myself transported by
their stories.
Looking also at the contribution of Frank in the book.
I don't know if you also contributed, Ellen, to the book.
Frank and I are actually next to each other in the book.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Funny thing.
What a coincidence.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was quite early on in my Art of Compassion journey as well.
So there is another book actually in the wings, but the wings are deep.
So I think the book may be some years off.
But yeah, there's a lot of new artists joined since that book came out and some phenomenal
artwork.
And I think we've probably all changed our styles since then.
So yeah, a lot of exciting stuff still to come.
So there'll be an Art of Compassion too, one day.
That's amazing news.
And I recommend listeners to get the book, the first edition, and look forward for the
second edition in the coming years.
And there is a link in the description below to Amazon if you want to get the book to make
yourself that gift.
There's also something I want to mention.
A card, a collection of cards.
It's called Oracle, I think.
And I'm also getting that because when I do meetings at work, I like to start with quotes.
And the beautiful thing about those cards is that you have vegan animal rights art.
And then behind the card, there is an uplifting message.
And I love starting a meeting at work with an uplifting quote.
So I will be using that.
That's a lovely idea, actually.
Yes.
They have all got beautiful little messages on the back.
And the artwork is so diverse as well.
It's just a beautiful, colorful little collection.
Even if you, I mean, obviously people use it for sort of spiritual kind of readings,
but it's just a beautiful little, it's just a beautiful, it's like a little book in itself.
Yeah.
So that's a nice little gift for somebody.
Frank, is there an exhibition or any project that you're working on with the Art of Compassion
project that you might want to share with us?
I try to participate in every project that I can.
This year, it's been very, very hard for me to be up to date with the Art of Compassion.
But I try to participate in as many as projects.
And of course, I want to be in the coming book.
I don't know when it's coming, but I'm sure I'll be there.
It takes time to make such a beautiful book as it is.
And Lisande, the founder of the Art of Compassion, she's a genius.
When she came up with the idea of the book, it took like three or four years for the book
to be published.
There were a handful of people that get very stressed about that and very, I don't know,
very nervous, and they left the project.
But good things take time.
So we have to be patient.
Yes, of course, I'll be there.
Great.
Yeah, I don't think Lee realized at the time how time consuming the editing would be because
there's, as well as artwork, there's people's personal stories, which are really beautiful.
They're very moving, actually.
And there's poetry.
And I don't think any of us realize what a monster job it is to put a book together.
And the logistics of trying to find someone to publish as well.
It's not that easy.
Most people who've written amazing books, if you ask them how long they worked on it,
they would say, oh, just a decade.
And the lady who edits the book, she's had to take two years out for personal reasons.
So that's why we had to put it on hold a bit.
But it will happen.
And I want to say thank you to Lee Sanders for all of her commitment.
She wasn't able to make this interview.
She's the founder of the Arts of Compassion project.
And yeah, I wanted to, let's maybe highlight her implication and her commitment and the
great work she has done.
Ah, she's incredible.
I mean, really, she is such a powerhouse.
She comes up with new project ideas all the time, as well as her own life.
And hers is all voluntary and sort of self-funded.
And she's brought together this incredible family.
And there's really nothing like it.
There's nothing like it around the world.
There's lots of vegan artists all over the world.
And not all of them are in the Arts of Compassion.
But yeah, she's done something incredible.
And she's just got such positive vibes.
And she's compassionate and just full of love for everybody.
Yeah.
And her ideas are off the scale.
Some things you have to say to her, Lee, that's just not going to be possible.
We're just a few little artists, but she just always comes up with them.
Yeah, she's amazing.
And I have so much to thank her for.
I wouldn't be here.
My art would not be where it is now without the opportunities she's given me.
So yeah, thanks, Lee.
Would you like to add something to what Helen said, Frank?
No.
She said it all.
Yeah, she's amazing.
She's inspiring.
And I was thinking that many times we think me alone, I cannot do a difference in this,
I don't know, crazy world.
But you can make a difference.
You can inspire others.
We can, I don't know, if you cannot draw or paint, you can inspire people by a song or
writing or speaking.
Like Lee Sanders, we all can do a difference.
We all can inspire people.
Maybe not a lot of people, but if every one of us could inspire a handful of people, things
will be very different.
Yeah, I think she really tapped into something, kind of bringing it into being a collective
like this, especially an international collective, because we bring so many different cultures
and so many different kinds of artwork.
And I think that just makes us all stronger together.
It makes, it gives the art real gravitas when people can go to an exhibition or look at
a book and every piece of incredible artwork in there is saying the same thing, really.
It's saying we've got to stop doing this to animals.
Look who they are, you know.
And that's a wonderful thing.
That's why I say no one else is doing this with art, really.
And yeah, that's this little lady in Spain.
This has just really sparked something.
So yeah, may it continue.
So to maybe end this conversation on uplifting message, what would you have to say to the
passive vegans out there?
How do we inspire them to become the next Lee Sanders, the next Helen, the next Frank,
and to do some more for the animal rights cause?
So what would be your message?
Let's start with you, Helen.
It is a hard one to answer.
I mean, we meet countless people at events, you know, and they say, oh, I really want
to join, you know.
I think this is, you know, they've been a bit too nervous about doing activism and they
see this as a part of activism.
And sometimes they join and sometimes they don't.
And we never know what people's personal stories are.
But I really think that as if we, the more we know about our subjects and our subject
is all the other animals and there are, it's crazy that we have humans and then we have
animals where there's endless species.
You know, we shouldn't really just call them animals, especially because we're animals
too.
It's like there's this great divide that we've created.
But yeah, if you feel particularly empathetic towards a species of animal, like if you went
vegan because you found out about chickens, you know, what really happens with chicken
eggs is to just get out there and know your subjects, learn a lot about your subject,
read, listen to podcasts, you know, watch people, you know, online talking about them.
And not only are you going to meet lots of people in that sphere who are going to really
encourage you to kind of do something about the fact that you're developing this empathy
for them, you're just going to learn more.
And I think just learning more gives you, I think it opens your empathy up.
We can all grow our empathy.
We've all got it, but I really believe we can all grow it and just keep growing it and
growing it and growing it.
And I think, yeah, knowing your subject really, really well helps you to find people who are
fighting, then you can join them and then you're away.
And it kind of happens organically, but it did to me anyway.
Finding other vegans, that's the key.
You've got to have support, you've got to have that support around you.
Incredible.
Yes, like this conversation and the way it has connected us and the pleasure we have
talking with each other right now.
Learning from each other, even today, you know, that's so nice to have learned things.
So Frank, what is your message?
First of all, I've never met a passive vegan.
We are very noisy.
We are annoying.
Not bad.
I agree with that.
But if there are passive vegans out there, I would say to them that just for being vegan,
they are already doing a lot.
You know, they are saving a lot of water for the way they are eating.
They are saving a lot of land.
And most important, they are saving lives, you know.
So that's not passive.
But if you want to do more, you can do more.
There are a lot of people that say, but I don't have any talent.
I cannot draw like you draw or paint.
But I think we all have talents, maybe hidden talents.
We all have wonderful talents to be discovered.
It's a matter of, I don't know, to speak with yourself, to stop from the daily rush and
to be honest with yourself and say, well, maybe I cannot draw, but I know how to cook.
Maybe I can show what I cook as a vegan.
Maybe inspire others or maybe you are good at speaking.
As you can see, I'm not good at speaking.
No, you are.
I'm trying.
I'm not good at speaking in Spanish, imagining this.
It's not easy, but maybe it's a matter of practice, like everything.
Find your talent, work hard on it and show it to the world.
We all have something to say or to, I don't know, maybe just maybe you can't say anything,
but for instance, maybe you are an athlete or a bodybuilder and you can show that to
the world that you can be totally healthy on a vegan diet or maybe you can write a song
about it.
There's a lot of things to do.
So that's it.
Find your talent, work hard on it and spread the message.
Awesome.
Definitely.
I used to think that I didn't know what to do with activism.
That's why I say it happens organically.
Everyone's got something, haven't they?
I really do believe I have this great hope that younger people will come up with activism
we haven't even dreamt of yet.
Yes.
That young people will come up with creative ways to be active.
Yeah.
It's incredible what young people are coming up with and a lot more younger people are
getting it these days as well.
I think young people are definitely like Frank's lovely children, you know, they are definitely
the future of it.
As Frank said in our last interview, the sound was a bit funny.
Yeah.
So I'm stealing Frank's words there from the last time we met that his children are
the future.
And I think young people, yeah, we've got big hopes for them to do things that are going
to blow our minds with how amazing they are for animals.
Fingers crossed.
Yeah.
Helen, Frank, thank you so much for having accepted my invitation a second time.
You're true champions and truly you're inspiring.
Your work is inspiring.
I'm looking forward to discovering your art in the Art of Compassion book.
And yeah, you're welcome to come back anytime you want on this show.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And if you need a third time, we'll be glad to be here.
Don't worry.
Don't jinx it.
Okay.
Third time lucky.
Well, we both managed to make it this time.
Despite the daylight savings messing us around.
So yes, I'm going to miss these conversations on Saturdays.
We might be better next week.
Yeah.
But like I said, you're welcome anytime.
Back on the show.
It's been a real pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Truly it was.
Thank you, Rhian.
Thank you everyone for listening.
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.
Let's encourage more people to take action.
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.