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Hello everyone, my name is Ryan and you are listening to The Vegan Report.

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Today we are going to talk about one of the most beautiful vegan initiative out there,

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the Art of Compassion Project.

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If you get the chance to visit their website, and there is a link in the description below,

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this is what you will read.

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The Art of Compassion Project is an international art collective, supported by over a hundred

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artists from 28 countries that aims to support the compassionate lifestyle of veganism by

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donating a hundred percent of proceeds from various art projects to non-profit vegan organizations.

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Through this effort, we also aim to build a strong international community of vegan

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artists who share the same vision to use their art as a mean to spread the vegan message.

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To discuss this initiative, I have with me Helen Barker, an artist and the UK team leader

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and event coordinator of Art of Compassion Project, and Francisco Atencio, also an artist

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and graphic designer for the organization.

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Welcome to the show Helen and Frank, thank you so much for having accepted my invitation.

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Thank you so much.

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Thank you Ryan.

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It's really exciting to be able to talk about the Art of Compassion Project because it is

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a passion, I know, for myself and I'm sure for Frank also.

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Thank you.

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Yes, thank you.

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Thank you for inviting us.

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It's a pleasure.

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Amazing.

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And for disclosure, this is the second time we meet and have this conversation.

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The first time we had some major technical problems, and so you generously accepted to

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do it again, give it another try, and thank you for that.

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So my first question for you is, how did your path cross with the Art of Compassion Project?

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How did you discover the Art of Compassion Project, fell in love with the initiative

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and decided to give time and effort to make it a success?

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Helen, let's start with you.

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So I discovered the project in 2017.

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I was at a little gallery in London where I was actually displaying my first ever animal

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rights art that I'd done.

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And there were two members of the Art of Compassion Project doing a presentation there about the

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groups.

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And I was quite tentative about my AR art then, you know, it was my first foray into

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it and I'd always done a lot of art, but I was just for myself.

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And I always, always painted and drew and sculpted animals, you know, that's my thing.

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I was so intrigued by this Art of Compassion, so I spoke to them both after the event.

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And I just thought, this sounds like a really safe space for an artist to go who wants to

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be active with their art.

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And it's just the only thing you have to be to join is to be vegan.

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You don't even have to be a great artist or a professional or anything.

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They just want people who make art who are vegan.

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So I thought, yeah, I'm going to be at home with like minded people here.

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So I joined straight away.

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And the other thing which you've just mentioned in that lovely introduction was that I was

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just bowled over by the fact that all of the projects raise funds for vegan initiatives,

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as well as kind of like working for the animals.

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So I just thought this is an all round good thing to do.

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So I joined and it all went from there.

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Amazing.

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What about you, Francisco?

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In my case, it was like two or three years before I'm one of the first members there.

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It was like, I don't know, like nine or 10 years ago, I don't recall exactly.

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But by that time I was painting and drawing just like a hobby.

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I was doing mostly pet portraits, you know, cats and dogs.

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And I saw a post on Facebook about the art of compassion.

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They were looking for artists who wanted to draw or paint or to spread the message of

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love toward animals.

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And they were planning to publish a book.

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So I thought, well, maybe this is a, it seems a nice thing, right?

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Because it was like they were calling people from all over the world.

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I'm from Argentina.

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Here in Argentina it's not easy to speak for the animals.

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So it was like a way I could spread the message in a better way, you know?

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So I filled in the form and I sent, by that time I only had one picture, one painting

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of a cow besides cats and dogs.

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So I sent that photo.

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And that's how I started with the art of compassion.

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Then the book, they took like two or three more years to be published.

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But it was a great beginning because a lot of artists joined at that time.

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So it was not only the book, it was like the yearly calendar, a lot of exhibitions and

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Beggy Fest.

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So that first year, I don't recall, but maybe I submitted my painting for like four or six

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projects.

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And it was like a kickoff for me for start painting not only pets, but for animal rights,

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you know?

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And even to see pets in a different way, we don't call them pets anymore.

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They are companion animals.

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It was like a breakthrough to me.

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I changed my way of thinking on what I eat to be more in the cause for animal rights.

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It was like the perfect time for me.

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So I'm very thankful to the art of compassion.

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Both of you have talked about submitting art.

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How do you deal with the outside view of the critical view that can come with someone who

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looks at a piece of art that you have worked with in the intimacy of your home and of your

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mind?

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And I want to know how you overcame that fear of judgment from others.

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Frank, would you like to start?

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Yes.

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I don't know.

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In my case, I draw or paint from the heart.

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Maybe they are not perfect, but when you have something so strong inside you that you have

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to let it out, you have a message to deliver and to do it in a passionate way, the results

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are going to be good.

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Of course, not everybody is going to like them.

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Or if you are talking, I don't know, issues like slaughterhouse or I don't know, well,

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animals used in different ways, animals seen as products.

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There are a lot of people that get very uncomfortable with this kind of art.

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But in my case, I don't want people to feel bad.

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I just want to share my point of view, my way of living.

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And we can't, I don't know, make everybody happy.

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But if you do it from the heart, it's going to be okay.

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You are not going to feel down for the critics or for people that say that something shouldn't

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be shown.

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What about you, Helen?

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Do you think about the people who are going to see your art when you are in that creative

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space and painting?

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Yeah, definitely.

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I agree with Frank.

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I think, like I said, I haven't made artwork for years and years for myself.

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The reason it's been for myself is because I don't want to show it to people because

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I don't want criticism.

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But there's something completely different.

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You cross a different line when you are doing artwork that has got a really important message.

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Because it becomes about, you know you are going to get attacked by people for the message.

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That's a given.

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I don't care what people think of the artwork itself.

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And because they are so taken up with the message, they don't really care either.

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So you don't get that same feeling of having your art critiqued because it's a piece of

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work that's about a really important issue.

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So it's always good.

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It's exactly what Frank says, always good.

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You can't wait to get it out there once you've done it.

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Because it's all the words and all the research and all the passion you've had in your heart

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that you've put into this piece of work.

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You can't wait to share that.

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And I never felt like that about artwork pre-animal rights artwork.

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Yeah, I can't wait to share a piece.

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And I want people to react.

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And I want farmers to jump on my page and have a rage at me.

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I want all of that.

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Because that's the conversation.

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We need to be having the conversations.

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You know, I'm not a great public speaker.

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I'm not great at kind of like going out on the street talking to people or even having

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kind of like one to one conversations really.

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But I can speak through my art.

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So I'm excited to be able to do that.

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So I never feel daunted about it anymore.

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When I think about artists, I think about people who are very individualistic in a way

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that have a big personality and they are maybe a bit, you know, eccentric or they have this

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creative spirit to them.

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So how does it work to have a collective and make those big personalities work together?

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Is it hard?

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Yeah, it's it's I've never I've never worked in another art sphere.

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So I don't really I don't really know.

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I probably have an idea of artists to like to.

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But there is something really unique about this group that there has never been anything

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like that.

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Yeah.

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And we have we have a really wide range of people.

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We have hobbyist artists.

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We have professionals, you know, literally make their living from artwork.

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There has never been a single sniff of that, as far as I can tell, because it's the place

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it's coming from.

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And a lot of them make professional artwork, which has nothing to do with animal rights.

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And they do they do the they do the art of compassion stuff in their spare time, what

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they would call their spare time.

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I've never met any divas in the group.

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Everyone just gets it.

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You know, we all submit our artwork.

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We all hope that it's going to be seen and, you know, it might sell and make some money.

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And none of us are making any money.

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And quite often the artists usually pay to have the prints done for the poster shows

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that we do at the exhibition.

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So it's it is purely just a giving ethos, really.

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So yeah, I think if there are any divas, they leave that stuff at home when they come to

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the art of compassion.

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I wouldn't know if they were like that, because everyone is just generous and kind and sharing

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genuinely.

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It sounds really cheesy.

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But well, I'm hearing you talk and you have this big smile on your face.

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Is it does it give you joy to to give time and this much energy to the art of compassion

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project?

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Yeah.

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I think the reason that I'm the UK event coordinator is because I'm the one who always jumps up

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and down and puts my hand up and says, oh, I'll do that.

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I'll do that.

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And I just love it.

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I just I love on so many levels.

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You know, personally, I like the work.

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I like organizing and I like collating everything and organizing the event.

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But, you know, meeting people, meeting so many people who are, you know, you can I can

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be displaying work from sort of 100 artists.

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I can be there can be 200 separate pieces of artwork from 100 artists at one of the

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exhibitions.

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And that feels like a privilege to me to be curating that.

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I would never I would never have that opportunity in anywhere else in my life.

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So it's given me something, even though it's voluntary, you know, and I, you know, I don't

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even break even when I do these events.

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But but I just love them.

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I would do as many as I you know, as I physically could in the year, really, which isn't isn't

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that many because real life gets in the way.

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But yeah, it is a it is a real privilege to, yeah, to have that position and and to work

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with the volunteers and to hear people talking about the artwork and how it moves them.

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So you just can't get better.

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There's nothing like it.

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Amazing.

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Frank, you're one of those artists that Helen talked about who does it for a living.

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And your journey is quite special because you were a computer engineer and you decided

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to put that aside to concentrate on art.

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So can you tell us about your personal journey relating to art?

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Yes, it's a crazy journey.

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It was not from one day to the other, it was like a long journey.

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I was working in a in different offices and I don't know, full time jobs as a software

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developer.

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And I started to feel that all my energy and all my creativity.

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I was giving it to to people that I don't even know and people that I am just doing

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business.

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So at first I started to attend art classes after my job was done every day, like a hobby,

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like a way of surviving this crazy system we live in.

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And it felt, I felt that I needed more than that.

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I started to feel that it was more than a hobby.

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So when I saw that I could draw or paint in a, I don't know, acceptable way, I decided

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to quit my full time job and started a part time job, again as a software developer.

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And started to, as I told before, I started doing portraits and that was, it was not a

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big income, but it was a way that I could, I don't know, do something that I love and

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earn some money.

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But I learned some new skills in this adventure of painting.

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But I felt that it wasn't enough half a day, so like three years ago I quit my half time,

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my part time job and decided to devote myself to painting, drawing, and I do some work of

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graphic design.

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I'm a graphic designer as well.

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It's been amazing because when you think that you cannot, I don't know, you don't have

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the money for the half of the month, a new job appears, a new commission appears.

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I've been doing it for three years, so I think I'll keep doing it for the rest of my life.

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I'm very grateful because I can live off what I love.

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Most of my work is related to animal rights.

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I've illustrated a couple of kid books.

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I made a couple of illustrations for vegan groups or in your case for your podcast, but

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I love to work with you.

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So yes, it's been amazing.

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One thing is that I was able to do this because of my family, because they joined me in this

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crazy idea and they support me.

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Maybe we are all the time a bit short of money, but I see my kids, they draw or paint along

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with me.

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Before that I was all the time, I was doing homework.

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It was like I was all day sitting in a desk and they came back from school and I was there.

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They came later and I was there.

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I didn't want to raise my kids in that way.

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I wanted them to see that his dad is doing the things that he loves and that they can

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do the same.

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Of course we love to travel more or have a newer car, but I'm happy and I think they

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are happy too in this way.

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People should know that you're the one who designed the logo of this podcast.

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Well, not the logo, it's called the cover art of this show.

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Commenting on what you said, it takes a lot of courage to pursue your passion and sacrifice

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your day job for what you really believe in and what you love.

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How old were you when you made that transition?

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I started the transition like 10 years ago.

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It was by the time I knew the Art of Compassion project.

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It was like I said before, it was an inspiration, this project.

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By that time I started to paint more related to animal rights.

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Yes, 10 years and it was like 15 years from now that I think I took my first art class.

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I was 35 or 34 by that time.

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I quit my job when I was 45.

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You're never too old to make big changes to your life and to pursue your dream or to do

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what you really love.

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I did it.

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It wasn't easy, but I did it.

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It's truly inspiring.

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Helen, what was it for you?

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How did you discover that you had this passion for art and that you wanted to pursue that?

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My two passions ever since I could walk was animals and making marks on things and drawing

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whatever animals I could find.

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But I never did anything with it.

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I did art at school and I failed.

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That stopped me for a little while.

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That's the power of criticism, you see.

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But I've always kept doing it for myself.

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Same as Frank.

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I did it in bits and pieces, but I've never done so much since I joined the Art of Compassion.

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Frank said a lovely thing, calling it the adventure of painting.

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I've just found it, that's a really interesting word, because I have found it such an adventure,

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learning how to do art because I wanted to do it better, because I wanted to do it better

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for the animals.

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I've taught myself different skills actually and done different things, sculpting 3D animals

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and all sorts of things that I wouldn't have done before.

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Yeah, it's amazing once you've got an outlet that just comes from the centre of your chest.

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That's you, you're done then and you'll be doing it for the rest of your life.

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I can't imagine doing anything different.

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I don't make a living from it.

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I make a few bags of chicken feed from it at the very most.

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That's enough for me.

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Because you also have a micro sanctuary.

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Yeah, I do.

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My seven chickens, my two sheep, my little friends who I care for, the survivors, I call

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them.

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I also want to ask both of you a last question about the artist before we talk about the

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art and the cause.

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How was it in terms of the reaction of your family and friends looking at you starting

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this journey, this art journey and pursuing your passion and drawing animals and getting

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involved with the Art of Compassion project?

296
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Let's start with you Helen.

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What was the reaction of your loved ones?

298
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Yeah, well, it's a tricky thing because your loved ones are the hardest ones to change,

299
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aren't they?

300
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,760
It's universally known that they're the most difficult people to persuade about veganism.

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You think they're going to be the easiest and they're really not.

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Couldn't be further from the truth.

303
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,920
I think they are proud of the fact that I'm following my passion.

304
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,600
They have said to me, oh, it's a shame that you don't do proper art, real art.

305
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,840
And I say, what do you mean?

306
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And they say, well, just not that scary stuff, not that judgy stuff.

307
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And my art is not judgy.

308
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,680
I don't do anything graphic and awful to sort of frighten people.

309
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I like to think my art is educational.

310
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But yeah, it's that disparate thing between vegans and non-vegans.

311
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So yeah, I would say the reception has not been what I wanted it to be.

312
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But you understand that because you know that your loved ones, no matter what.

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And I know they're proud of me deep down.

314
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,720
Yeah.

315
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,880
What about you, Frank?

316
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:59,480
In my case, well, like I said before, my family is very supportive about it.

317
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,160
I live in a little place.

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There are like three or four houses, all relatives.

319
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And we are all vegetarian or vegan.

320
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:29,200
And it's like a little bubble because outside of that is a very different world.

321
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:40,040
For instance, my friends from the college or from previous office jobs, they don't get

322
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,040
it.

323
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,400
Why I eat the way that I eat?

324
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:52,360
Why I'm trying to do a living of art in Argentina that's crazy?

325
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:58,120
We are always in a deep crisis, economical crisis.

326
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,360
And it sounds crazy.

327
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:05,800
They are doing very, very well.

328
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:14,080
Most of them have their jobs of software developers or engineers.

329
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,800
And most of them, they are doing very well.

330
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,360
They have their fancy car.

331
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:26,360
And we are still friends and we hang out.

332
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:27,360
We laugh.

333
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:33,320
They laugh at my meal.

334
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:41,840
When we gather for a dinner, always barbecue, of course.

335
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:50,560
I do my baggies, my vegan stuff.

336
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:56,480
But it's nice because it's always an opportunity to chat about it.

337
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:09,720
They are very curious of what I eat, how I'm still alive, not eating big pieces of meat.

338
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:21,040
They are very nice, but I see that they don't get what I'm doing.

339
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:29,080
But I don't know, the family support is very important.

340
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,120
Without them, I don't know if I could have done this.

341
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,640
I want to now talk about the art and its importance.

342
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:48,320
And I want to start by talking about what different art you're making.

343
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:53,640
And the other artists of the Art of Compassion project are making.

344
00:29:53,640 --> 00:30:02,440
Because animals have been a subject in art since the dawn of humanity.

345
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We've drawn animals on the walls of caves.

346
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:18,880
And I want to understand how you see vegan art as being different from how we portray

347
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:32,560
animals, how we have portrayed animals in our culture, and what makes vegan art so special.

348
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,160
So maybe Helen, would you like to answer the question first?

349
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,840
Yes, one of my favourite subjects actually is how we've addressed our relationship with

350
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:44,840
other animals.

351
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:51,880
Since we first started to draw them on cave walls, if indeed that was our first foray

352
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:52,880
into that.

353
00:30:52,880 --> 00:31:00,040
Their images, not only are we used, we use their image without their consent always,

354
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,040
of course.

355
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,880
They're so part of the fabric of our lives now.

356
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:11,120
They are on everything, you can't buy anything without the image of an animal on there, the

357
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:17,160
effigy of an animal, whether it's an insect or a bird.

358
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,040
And they become invisible, I think.

359
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,440
They become unseen, misunderstood.

360
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:31,600
They are just a two-dimensional effigy of themselves.

361
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:38,640
No matter how beautiful that art is, and there is some incredibly beautiful animal art all

362
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,160
over the world, and some of it ancient and very moving.

363
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:51,080
But I think for a vegan artist or an animal rights artist, as I call myself, it's just

364
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,040
not enough to portray them beautifully.

365
00:31:54,040 --> 00:32:02,560
You have to portray them with integrity and honesty, and you have to speak about their

366
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:08,360
lived experiences and who they are, who they are, not what they are.

367
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,720
And yeah, I think that's what I try to do with my art.

368
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,240
I don't want to make pretty pictures.

369
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:22,400
I want to make pictures that are well put together, but it needs to speak for the animals.

370
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:29,280
So I think it's really important for us as artists to not make art about animals, but

371
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,080
to really make sure we make it for them.

372
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:40,640
Because we're speaking their voice, which we don't know if we're speaking it right,

373
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,640
but we're just trying to.

374
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,000
We've heard the expression, voice for the voiceless, which I don't feel comfortable

375
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920
with that because they speak their own voices all the time.

376
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,080
It's just that we don't understand them properly.

377
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,840
And we don't take the time to understand them.

378
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:05,200
So I think that's our job, to make people see deeper than any artwork they've ever looked

379
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,280
at before.

380
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:13,440
So those animals, you know, become more visible to us as people, you know, because they are

381
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,320
just people there, other nations.

382
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,360
So that's our job, I think.

383
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:29,960
I get from what you said that the purpose of animal rights art is to build a bridge

384
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:41,460
between us and the rest of the animal kingdom, to highlight their reality instead of exploiting

385
00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:52,800
that reality or their image for transmitting maybe other ideas or pursuing another message

386
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,160
or emotion.

387
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800
So did I get it right?

388
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Yeah, definitely.

389
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,280
Yeah.

390
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:08,440
I mean, there's so much more to them than even showing, you know, graphic footage of

391
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,520
what happens to them.

392
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,520
I think people need to connect with them on a much deeper level than just seeing them

393
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,440
suffer because that's not the full picture.

394
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,440
The full picture is they have really rich emotional lives, every, you know, all of them,

395
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,280
you know, the tiniest fishes in the sea, the insects, everyone.

396
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,160
And that's, I think, what we need to somehow get across in our artwork.

397
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:41,640
And I think, you know, we need to try and draw that empathy out, people.

398
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,280
It's a real challenge, actually.

399
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,320
I think that's why I'm not very prolific in my art because I spend a lot of time on the

400
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:54,040
nuances of, you know, I'm thinking about my audience all the time when I'm making a piece

401
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,040
of work.

402
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,800
And of course, my audience have a completely different mindset to me.

403
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:04,680
So it's a challenge to come up with a piece that it already speaks to you so you don't

404
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,680
have a problem with it.

405
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:12,000
But you've got to think about how it presents, you know, say I'm drawing a pig.

406
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,600
I'm working for the pig as far as I'm concerned.

407
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,040
I'm like their lawyer or something, you know, so I don't want to misrepresent them because

408
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,600
my job is to represent them correctly.

409
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:23,720
Yeah.

410
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,320
So that's how I feel like when I'm making work.

411
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,800
And yeah, it feels like a challenge.

412
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,800
It really does.

413
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,080
It's one we relish, obviously.

414
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:38,000
But yeah, I think we really need to think about getting it right.

415
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:43,880
You made a comment and I want to get back to it.

416
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:53,240
In the animal rights movement, we tend to promote visuals of animals suffering.

417
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:59,020
For instance, footage of animals in signs of slaughterhouses.

418
00:35:59,020 --> 00:36:07,000
Are we using those images maybe too much or too freely?

419
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:16,000
Is it harming in any way the animal rights cause to put the accent on those kinds of

420
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:22,320
images and portrayals of animals?

421
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,680
What I'm thinking about right now is Oxfam.

422
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,960
I volunteered for Oxfam for many, many years.

423
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:36,640
And one of the employees there told me once, you know, we used to use a lot of pictures

424
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:45,560
of people suffering, you know, hungry and destitute in refugee camps.

425
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:51,220
And that would get a lot of traction and we would get lots of money, you know, fundraising

426
00:36:51,220 --> 00:36:53,380
using those images.

427
00:36:53,380 --> 00:37:03,040
But we realized that there was a bad side to it, that we were taking away the humanity

428
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:11,040
of those people, showing them as victims when they were more than that.

429
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,000
And that portrayal was actually in a way harmful.

430
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:26,120
And so we started thinking of balancing the way we visualize and to show people in poor

431
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:35,800
countries with a smile and with dignity and not in the worst state they're in.

432
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,680
So what would you have to say about that?

433
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,240
Yeah, it is a tricky one to answer.

434
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:51,920
And I've listened to lots of debates about it and lots of lost arguments about it.

435
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,680
I really like the Oxfam analogy, actually, even though it's slightly different for humours,

436
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,840
because we can empathize with them straight away because they are our species.

437
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,760
We understand them.

438
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:09,400
People don't empathize with other animals in the same way because they don't have any

439
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,080
concept of the fact that they have the same feelings.

440
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:20,560
So I think portraying violent images of what human animals go through and other animals,

441
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,600
it does have a nuanced difference to it.

442
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:34,320
But I absolutely, I would never, I would personally never show something that was really graphic

443
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,760
suffering for that exact reason.

444
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,840
I don't want to portray them as victims.

445
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:52,880
I would rather speak about their similarities to humans, how they suffer, how they feel

446
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,920
joy and love and they have families who they care for.

447
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:07,040
I would rather lift them up to what people think is something that is only particular

448
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,480
to humans.

449
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:15,040
I would rather lift all animals up to that same status than to make them look like victims

450
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,400
of humans, to portray their potential.

451
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,560
So I dare say there is a place for it.

452
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,640
I don't think, I think I know people who have turned vegan because they saw those things

453
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,000
and you can't argue with that.

454
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,440
But I think like anything else, it has to be a balance.

455
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:42,800
And I think if it's balanced out with lots of other ways to be active for animals, then

456
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,000
perhaps it works.

457
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,600
We're never going to be perfect.

458
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,520
We've got to try everything that we can in the toolbox.

459
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,240
But sometimes I even think there's too much of it on social media, but that's maybe just

460
00:39:56,240 --> 00:40:02,520
my particular choice of what I'd like to see and not.

461
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:03,520
Yeah.

462
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,440
Well, what about you, Frank?

463
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,440
What is your take on this whole issue?

464
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,560
What makes animal rights art different?

465
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:21,560
And what is, you know, I guess its place in the world of art?

466
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:28,320
Yes, I agree with all that Helen said.

467
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:35,560
It's not easy to find a balance in what we should show about animals if they show them

468
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,760
suffering or enjoying life.

469
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:52,440
In my case, I try to always show them in a happy way, in a happy place, like Helen said,

470
00:40:52,440 --> 00:41:02,120
in a way that people can see that animals share with us a lot of things, that animals

471
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:09,480
enjoy life, that they want to live, that they will fight to be alive.

472
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:23,120
And if you see my artwork, in most of the cases, they are happy.

473
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:33,360
Another message that I try to deliver through my art is that we are a part of nature.

474
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,140
We are not owners of nature.

475
00:41:38,140 --> 00:41:42,520
We are not allowed to use nature for our benefit.

476
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:49,520
That we have to learn to live with nature and in nature and to share this beautiful

477
00:41:49,520 --> 00:42:00,520
world with the rest of the animals and the trees and all of the wonderful things we have.

478
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:10,360
That's another thing that I try to show through my art.

479
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:21,120
Returning to your question, I think it's quite new what we are trying to do, to use art with

480
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,400
a message from the animals.

481
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:35,200
Helen said not to paint animals, but to speak for them.

482
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:44,320
I think it's, I don't know if it's done before, because art has always been about mankind,

483
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:54,360
you know, talking about their beliefs or their culture or their gods.

484
00:42:54,360 --> 00:43:01,720
But now we are taking art to a different place.

485
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:09,320
It's quite new and it's very, very nice and very happy to see that a lot of artists are

486
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,320
doing this today.

487
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:30,600
And not only painting, you have a lot of singers now or actors that are talking, they are giving

488
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,520
voice to animals.

489
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,600
We have a lot of movies now.

490
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:44,160
The other day I was watching with my daughter, she's nine years old.

491
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:50,600
I was watching Chicken Run with her and she loves that movie.

492
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:57,760
And it's very, the message that I deliver is very strong.

493
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:03,640
They show chickens with personality, with names.

494
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:04,640
They are individuals.

495
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,400
They are very different.

496
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,320
They enjoy life.

497
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,280
They fight.

498
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:11,920
They argue with each other.

499
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,240
But then they come up with a plan to save.

500
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:25,920
At the beginning they are trying to save one little chicken, but at the end they ended

501
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:31,320
up saving all the chickens they can.

502
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:37,880
It's very nice to see that kind of art in popular media.

503
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:44,040
Art can also be used to promote the opposite message.

504
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,720
And I'm talking here about animal exploitation.

505
00:44:49,720 --> 00:45:01,120
When I go grocery shopping and I pass next to the egg aisle and the milk aisle, I see

506
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:10,400
lots of images, beautiful drawing of cows and chickens living happily.

507
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:25,240
And that is all used to hide a truly disgusting and horrifying reality and to make those products

508
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:32,280
more attractive to consumers, to make them forget where those products really come from.

509
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:38,880
And I guess you are in a way competing against that art, competing against that message.

510
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,720
So I want to get your opinion on that kind of art.

511
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:53,520
Frank, what is your reaction to those kinds of drawings when you go grocery shopping or

512
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,480
when you encounter an ad on TV or things like that?

513
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:02,360
Yes, I love to punch them in the face.

514
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:07,560
It's disgusting.

515
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:15,560
I usually go shopping or to the grocery with my kids.

516
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:23,920
It's not a nice thing, but at the same time it's an opportunity to speak about it, to

517
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,280
show them that that's not the truth.

518
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:39,160
And the truth is that animals suffered a lot to be there.

519
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:47,440
Of course, I don't show my kids footage of slaughterhouse or things like that, but I

520
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,400
let them know that that's not the truth.

521
00:46:51,400 --> 00:47:00,720
The happy cows and pigs running in a green field, they don't live like that, I told them.

522
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:04,920
So it is what it is.

523
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:10,440
It's going to be there for a long time.

524
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:21,800
The only thing that we can do is that it's encouraging us to paint or to work more for

525
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:30,080
the animals and to speak about it, not only with the kids, but I don't know, with friends

526
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:36,520
telling them, did you believe these lies?

527
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:46,160
Take the positive part of it, it's like an excuse to talk about it.

528
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,320
What about you, Helen?

529
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:56,960
How can artists like you and Frank support that kind of message and participate in making

530
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:02,600
that kind of art for such bloodthirsty industries?

531
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:11,480
Yeah, another one of my favourite subjects, as far as my art is concerned, is that I do

532
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:17,200
try to make artwork that tips that on its head.

533
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:26,000
Of course, as much as in the climate movement, we know about greenwashing, and we now have

534
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,480
this term humane washing, which is exactly what you're talking about when you talk about

535
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:39,360
the happy egg packages and the lovely happy pictures of cows eating grass, which as we

536
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,480
know is all a complete fallacy.

537
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,560
But that's in the human psyche.

538
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,240
That's why people think that it's okay, because they're all treated humanely and they must

539
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:54,760
be having a great time and nothing bad happens to them ever.

540
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,400
And then their lives are ended and it's fine.

541
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,440
So our work has to turn that on its head.

542
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:06,600
I love to use that and I've done quite a bit of artwork about making my own little fake

543
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:14,240
meat packages that look just like a meat packet, but they've got a picture of the animal inside

544
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:19,080
the packet with their face looking out and it's got just some truth about who they are

545
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:20,400
on the packet.

546
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:28,560
So I actually directly try to address that with some of my work to kick out the humane

547
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:29,560
washing.

548
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,280
But yeah, that's pretty much what we're doing, isn't it?

549
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:38,040
We're trying to turn all of those narratives that we've all been brought up with since

550
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,120
we were kids, we're trying to turn those narratives on their head.

551
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:48,360
And that's a big job because there's a lot of them, isn't there?

552
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,240
It's just we are bombarded with it.

553
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:58,000
And if you think we've got to make a counterpiece for everything that we see, yeah, it's a good

554
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,000
job.

555
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,440
There's more of us all the time because there's a lot of work to do.

556
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:10,960
Talking about those narratives, there is the weird fact, fascinating fact in a way that

557
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:17,040
animals are used as insults in our language.

558
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:29,360
And how can we take individuals and living creatures and reduce them to basically an

559
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:30,360
insult?

560
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,320
My question is really, first of all, why?

561
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,800
How come we got there?

562
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:49,120
And also, can you concretely give an example of what you did to break away some of those

563
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:55,920
animals from their prison of metaphorical prison, for the prison of meaning that we

564
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,120
have imposed on them?

565
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:59,920
Maybe starting with you, Helen.

566
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:03,800
Yeah, the language is so interesting.

567
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:09,760
And even when you've been vegan a long time, you can suddenly find yourself using a term,

568
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:15,600
not like a very negative one, but even just sick as a dog.

569
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:24,320
It's not something we shouldn't be using them as a yardstick for being sick.

570
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,240
And again, we're indoctrinated, aren't we?

571
00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:29,320
That's in our language.

572
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:30,320
It's in our language.

573
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:37,600
And it's very hard to even shift it in yourself when you know that that is speciesist language.

574
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:43,560
I think you have to find it in yourself first and then think, oh, OK, I need to stop doing

575
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,760
those things myself.

576
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:51,840
I have made some artwork that challenges it, but it's a tricky one.

577
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,840
It's a really tricky one to perform with art.

578
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:04,480
You know, I dare say maybe written word is better because I really struggle to represent

579
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,680
it visually in a piece of artwork.

580
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:13,880
But I certainly I try never to use it and I correct people all the time.

581
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,320
And I do it kindly.

582
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:21,480
I'm trying to make people realise, whether they're vegan or non-vegan, that that language

583
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,280
is old school.

584
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,900
It's inappropriate now.

585
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:31,040
And I think the more that I can do that, the more people are going to, it's just going

586
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:32,040
to sink in.

587
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,120
So it's that that's a long journey.

588
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:36,120
That's a really long journey.

589
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:42,520
But yeah, I'm still I'm still working hard on making art to challenge that without using

590
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,520
without using words.

591
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:45,520
Yeah.

592
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:51,120
So I'll let you know when I've come up with something, you'll be the first to hear.

593
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,800
Yes, please.

594
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:54,800
What about you, Frank?

595
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,680
What is your opinion on the topic?

596
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:07,760
Yes, we have in Spanish a lot of work related to animals in a in a bad sense, in a bad way.

597
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,120
It's a cultural thing.

598
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:15,800
But I don't know, I try to correct my kids when they use it.

599
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:23,320
For instance, it's always very common to say that someone is a pig when they are, I don't

600
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,120
know, very dirty.

601
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:35,080
And I try to teach to teach them that pigs, in fact, they are very, very clean in nature.

602
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:48,280
We seem dirty in farms because they don't live the way nature intended for them.

603
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:53,840
In nature, they they have their place to to sleep.

604
00:53:53,840 --> 00:54:00,480
They have their place to to bath in mood to refresh themselves.

605
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:06,680
And they have another place to to make beef and poop.

606
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:14,520
But in a farm, they don't have space, they have to do everything in those tiny, tiny

607
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,320
cases or spaces.

608
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:29,480
And again, I try to find a way to turn that bad thing in a I don't know, in a in a positive

609
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:40,320
way to try to learn first myself things and then try to teach something to to the people

610
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,320
that I care.

611
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:49,640
You know, in your in our case, Frank, you're the one who made the cover art for the vegan

612
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,080
report.

613
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,720
And we see there a pig.

614
00:54:53,720 --> 00:55:01,480
And you know, at first, I was hesitant to adopt it as cover art, because there was an

615
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,480
image of a pig on that cover art.

616
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:10,580
And that was surprising to me, even after so many years of being vegan, celebrating

617
00:55:10,580 --> 00:55:21,480
now nine years, I still had that feeling of uncomfortable being uncomfortable and, you

618
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:30,160
know, uneasy with having a pig representing a project I'm passionate about because pigs

619
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:38,280
are dirty pigs are insults pigs are even perverted.

620
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,880
You know, that's what I associate with pigs.

621
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:50,240
And at the end, I chose that cover art for that very reason, because I felt uneasy with

622
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:53,720
that art, because it made me uncomfortable.

623
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:57,480
Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it?

624
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:58,480
And it's really interesting.

625
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,600
The last piece of artwork I did, which was for the art of compassion last year, we were

626
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:13,840
doing a submission for the London show, which was all about the marine world.

627
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:20,040
And because fishes are so unrepresented, and I wanted to do a piece about bycatch.

628
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:24,560
You've heard of you know, bycatches or all the little people in the sea that get caught,

629
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,240
and they're not the target species.

630
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:33,640
So I was researching bycatch, and I realized I was doing a really speciesist thing because

631
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:41,080
I was I was looking at the sort of the megafauna and the and the really, the really iconic

632
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:46,760
species or the protected species, you know, seals or whales or sharks, you know, the numbers

633
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,160
are horrific.

634
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,720
And then I thought, what am I doing?

635
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:51,560
This is about the fishes.

636
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,880
That's that's a much bigger number of individuals.

637
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:04,560
Even myself at this late stage in my 27 years vegan, I was still being speciesist myself.

638
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:07,520
So that was so interesting to me to discover that.

639
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,480
And I ended up doing a piece about about the fishes who are caught in the nets and not

640
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:13,920
the bycatch.

641
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:19,480
But yeah, it's a challenge, but it's good.

642
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,440
We're here to challenge each other.

643
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,720
And that's why it's good to talk about it, isn't it?

644
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,880
It sparks those little things in your brain that make you change and make you make you

645
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:29,880
be better.

646
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,920
And that language is used to distance ourselves for animals.

647
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:35,800
And I suppose our language is art.

648
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:46,000
And we're using using it to bring them closer to us and try and undo some of that indoctrination

649
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,560
that we've had since the agricultural revolution.

650
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:53,120
Probably 10,000 years ago, we've been using language to distance animals from us.

651
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:57,120
So yeah, we got an uphill struggle.

652
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,480
Well thank you for sharing that.

653
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,280
Because it makes me feel better.

654
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:06,920
Yeah, I genuinely was fascinated by it.

655
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,800
And it really spurred me to do a really complicated piece with lots of little fishes instead of

656
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,840
you know, so beautiful shark.

657
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,080
Yeah, so it was good for me.

658
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,760
It was a good poke for me.

659
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:27,680
Frank, are you also surprising yourself being specious in your outlook sometimes?

660
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:41,120
Yes, we are always learning for the cover art for the postcard, some inside information

661
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:52,720
that the pig was there at first for a mistake, because I was trying to make like a background

662
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:58,000
with the silhouette of many farm animals.

663
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:04,800
I had my cow, the calf, some ducks there.

664
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:12,280
And I was looking for a reference image of the pig and I put it there.

665
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:19,640
And it was so big that it covered the whole screen.

666
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:21,760
And I thought that's it.

667
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,640
This is a strong image.

668
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:39,200
The pig, the little piggy on front, looking at the viewers and telling us, hey, I'm here.

669
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:46,560
Now I'm happy because it's an image of a free pig, a piglet.

670
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,560
But he's been in a slaughterhouse.

671
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,520
He's been freed from there.

672
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:02,360
And I'm very glad you liked it, because when I saw that image, I thought it was the one

673
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,520
that I was looking for.

674
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,040
And thankfully, you liked it a lot.

675
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:10,840
It's a really joyful image.

676
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,960
I just love it.

677
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:18,080
It's one of those things you could easily see like on a meat packet, you know, that's

678
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:19,080
the tragic thing.

679
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:20,080
But it isn't.

680
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,000
It's a real story about joy.

681
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,720
And that's a beautiful image.

682
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:33,960
There is the detail of the ear tag and the ears being cut.

683
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:44,240
And I wanted that as a little reminder of where that pig came from, which he escaped.

684
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:56,840
And on the ear tag, there is the number 100, and it's also a clue to tell people, you know,

685
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:05,320
there are 99 other pigs that are stuck in that nightmare.

686
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,620
So yeah, I did love the image.

687
01:01:09,620 --> 01:01:11,620
Thank you, Frank.

688
01:01:11,620 --> 01:01:13,400
Thank you.

689
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:23,320
So I want to talk about something we mentioned at the beginning, something you participated

690
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:32,320
in, Frank, which is the Art of Compassion book, which is a compilation collection of

691
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:40,220
some of the most beautiful animal rights artwork out there, which is available for order on

692
01:01:40,220 --> 01:01:42,840
Amazon.

693
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:48,120
Helen, can you tell us a little bit about that book and how we can get it?

694
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:56,680
Yeah, the book is probably the crowning glory, really, because that was when Lee set up the

695
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:57,680
Art of Compassion.

696
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,800
It was just with a view to making a book.

697
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:04,520
And I think she got so overwhelmed with so many artists joining and realized that it

698
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,680
wasn't just going to be a little tiny pamphlet.

699
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:10,240
It was going to be a big book.

700
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,160
That's when all the other projects came to light.

701
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:19,360
And it's actually kind of helped the Art of Compassion to grow to much more than a book.

702
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:24,720
But the book has, I can't remember, I should have looked it up, but it has a phenomenal

703
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:26,360
amount of images in it.

704
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:32,280
It's beautiful, beautiful, heavy book.

705
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,400
You can only buy it through Amazon at the moment.

706
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:42,520
The reason for that, even though Amazon has its issues, as many of us know, was that it

707
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:49,480
was going to just cost so much money to present a book with that much artwork in that had

708
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,960
good enough quality printing.

709
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:56,200
To print colour on every single page, it would have been prohibitive.

710
01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:00,120
And the Art of Compassion is a non-profit.

711
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:01,320
We don't make any money.

712
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,560
So there wasn't funds to do it.

713
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:10,280
And Amazon was the only place that came up with that you could buy it and print on demand.

714
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:11,800
So it was quite an easy thing to do.

715
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:13,520
It took a long, long time.

716
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:18,960
And I think it's only been out four years or maybe it came out 2019.

717
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,000
That's another thing I've got to look up.

718
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:22,920
So my apologies.

719
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:27,600
So yeah, it did take quite a lot of years to put together, but it's got poetry in it.

720
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:34,120
It's got personal stories from artists and just such a huge range of artwork.

721
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:36,600
There's really, really something for everyone.

722
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:40,160
It doesn't have a lot of graphic stuff in, so it makes a really good coffee table book

723
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:41,760
as well.

724
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:47,960
You can leave it out and think it's really going to touch people rather than offend people,

725
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:49,320
is how I view it.

726
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:54,600
So yeah, it's a masterful little piece of work.

727
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:59,280
And yeah, you can buy it on Amazon in most countries, I think, actually.

728
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:00,280
Yeah.

729
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:05,280
So I think it even has its own website, which you can link through the Art of Compassion

730
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:06,280
project website.

731
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,280
So have a look.

732
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:15,320
Yes, I ordered the book and I'm looking forward to getting it.

733
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:24,160
I'm truly excited to open it and discover the many images that myself transported by

734
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:27,020
their stories.

735
01:04:27,020 --> 01:04:31,720
Looking also at the contribution of Frank in the book.

736
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:39,120
I don't know if you also contributed, Ellen, to the book.

737
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,480
Frank and I are actually next to each other in the book.

738
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:42,480
Oh, yeah.

739
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:43,480
Yeah.

740
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:44,480
Funny thing.

741
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:45,480
What a coincidence.

742
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:46,480
Yeah, yeah.

743
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:52,160
And I was quite early on in my Art of Compassion journey as well.

744
01:04:52,160 --> 01:05:00,200
So there is another book actually in the wings, but the wings are deep.

745
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,240
So I think the book may be some years off.

746
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:07,080
But yeah, there's a lot of new artists joined since that book came out and some phenomenal

747
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:08,300
artwork.

748
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:12,880
And I think we've probably all changed our styles since then.

749
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,680
So yeah, a lot of exciting stuff still to come.

750
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,960
So there'll be an Art of Compassion too, one day.

751
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:22,280
That's amazing news.

752
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:29,640
And I recommend listeners to get the book, the first edition, and look forward for the

753
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,560
second edition in the coming years.

754
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:40,040
And there is a link in the description below to Amazon if you want to get the book to make

755
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:41,760
yourself that gift.

756
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,720
There's also something I want to mention.

757
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,880
A card, a collection of cards.

758
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,560
It's called Oracle, I think.

759
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:59,560
And I'm also getting that because when I do meetings at work, I like to start with quotes.

760
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:06,560
And the beautiful thing about those cards is that you have vegan animal rights art.

761
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:12,260
And then behind the card, there is an uplifting message.

762
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:17,920
And I love starting a meeting at work with an uplifting quote.

763
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,520
So I will be using that.

764
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,520
That's a lovely idea, actually.

765
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:23,520
Yes.

766
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:26,600
They have all got beautiful little messages on the back.

767
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,080
And the artwork is so diverse as well.

768
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,000
It's just a beautiful, colorful little collection.

769
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:38,120
Even if you, I mean, obviously people use it for sort of spiritual kind of readings,

770
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:43,240
but it's just a beautiful little, it's just a beautiful, it's like a little book in itself.

771
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:44,240
Yeah.

772
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,080
So that's a nice little gift for somebody.

773
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:54,920
Frank, is there an exhibition or any project that you're working on with the Art of Compassion

774
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,800
project that you might want to share with us?

775
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:05,680
I try to participate in every project that I can.

776
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:15,720
This year, it's been very, very hard for me to be up to date with the Art of Compassion.

777
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:20,920
But I try to participate in as many as projects.

778
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:26,440
And of course, I want to be in the coming book.

779
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:32,660
I don't know when it's coming, but I'm sure I'll be there.

780
01:07:32,660 --> 01:07:41,800
It takes time to make such a beautiful book as it is.

781
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:48,480
And Lisande, the founder of the Art of Compassion, she's a genius.

782
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:56,040
When she came up with the idea of the book, it took like three or four years for the book

783
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,800
to be published.

784
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:05,680
There were a handful of people that get very stressed about that and very, I don't know,

785
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:13,080
very nervous, and they left the project.

786
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,960
But good things take time.

787
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:20,760
So we have to be patient.

788
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,880
Yes, of course, I'll be there.

789
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:24,880
Great.

790
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:32,720
Yeah, I don't think Lee realized at the time how time consuming the editing would be because

791
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:38,920
there's, as well as artwork, there's people's personal stories, which are really beautiful.

792
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:40,360
They're very moving, actually.

793
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:41,360
And there's poetry.

794
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:49,560
And I don't think any of us realize what a monster job it is to put a book together.

795
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:54,240
And the logistics of trying to find someone to publish as well.

796
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,480
It's not that easy.

797
01:08:56,480 --> 01:08:59,720
Most people who've written amazing books, if you ask them how long they worked on it,

798
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:06,440
they would say, oh, just a decade.

799
01:09:06,440 --> 01:09:13,200
And the lady who edits the book, she's had to take two years out for personal reasons.

800
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:15,920
So that's why we had to put it on hold a bit.

801
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,560
But it will happen.

802
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:24,600
And I want to say thank you to Lee Sanders for all of her commitment.

803
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,960
She wasn't able to make this interview.

804
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:31,640
She's the founder of the Arts of Compassion project.

805
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:42,160
And yeah, I wanted to, let's maybe highlight her implication and her commitment and the

806
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:43,800
great work she has done.

807
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:45,440
Ah, she's incredible.

808
01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:50,160
I mean, really, she is such a powerhouse.

809
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:55,760
She comes up with new project ideas all the time, as well as her own life.

810
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:59,520
And hers is all voluntary and sort of self-funded.

811
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,440
And she's brought together this incredible family.

812
01:10:04,440 --> 01:10:05,800
And there's really nothing like it.

813
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:07,120
There's nothing like it around the world.

814
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,400
There's lots of vegan artists all over the world.

815
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:12,720
And not all of them are in the Arts of Compassion.

816
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:16,040
But yeah, she's done something incredible.

817
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,360
And she's just got such positive vibes.

818
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:23,040
And she's compassionate and just full of love for everybody.

819
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,040
Yeah.

820
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,120
And her ideas are off the scale.

821
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,800
Some things you have to say to her, Lee, that's just not going to be possible.

822
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,880
We're just a few little artists, but she just always comes up with them.

823
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:36,240
Yeah, she's amazing.

824
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:38,480
And I have so much to thank her for.

825
01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:39,960
I wouldn't be here.

826
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:45,160
My art would not be where it is now without the opportunities she's given me.

827
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,600
So yeah, thanks, Lee.

828
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,600
Would you like to add something to what Helen said, Frank?

829
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:52,600
No.

830
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:54,360
She said it all.

831
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,480
Yeah, she's amazing.

832
01:10:56,480 --> 01:10:58,600
She's inspiring.

833
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:09,560
And I was thinking that many times we think me alone, I cannot do a difference in this,

834
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,160
I don't know, crazy world.

835
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,160
But you can make a difference.

836
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,480
You can inspire others.

837
01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:27,200
We can, I don't know, if you cannot draw or paint, you can inspire people by a song or

838
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:29,880
writing or speaking.

839
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:35,840
Like Lee Sanders, we all can do a difference.

840
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:38,200
We all can inspire people.

841
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:50,320
Maybe not a lot of people, but if every one of us could inspire a handful of people, things

842
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,720
will be very different.

843
01:11:52,720 --> 01:12:01,800
Yeah, I think she really tapped into something, kind of bringing it into being a collective

844
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:06,520
like this, especially an international collective, because we bring so many different cultures

845
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:11,640
and so many different kinds of artwork.

846
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:15,600
And I think that just makes us all stronger together.

847
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:20,440
It makes, it gives the art real gravitas when people can go to an exhibition or look at

848
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:27,520
a book and every piece of incredible artwork in there is saying the same thing, really.

849
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:31,200
It's saying we've got to stop doing this to animals.

850
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:32,560
Look who they are, you know.

851
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,600
And that's a wonderful thing.

852
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:40,200
That's why I say no one else is doing this with art, really.

853
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,760
And yeah, that's this little lady in Spain.

854
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,320
This has just really sparked something.

855
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,440
So yeah, may it continue.

856
01:12:51,440 --> 01:13:01,960
So to maybe end this conversation on uplifting message, what would you have to say to the

857
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:04,280
passive vegans out there?

858
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:12,120
How do we inspire them to become the next Lee Sanders, the next Helen, the next Frank,

859
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:16,840
and to do some more for the animal rights cause?

860
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:20,040
So what would be your message?

861
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:22,680
Let's start with you, Helen.

862
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:23,920
It is a hard one to answer.

863
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:31,160
I mean, we meet countless people at events, you know, and they say, oh, I really want

864
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:32,160
to join, you know.

865
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,560
I think this is, you know, they've been a bit too nervous about doing activism and they

866
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,960
see this as a part of activism.

867
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:40,920
And sometimes they join and sometimes they don't.

868
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:46,200
And we never know what people's personal stories are.

869
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:52,400
But I really think that as if we, the more we know about our subjects and our subject

870
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:58,200
is all the other animals and there are, it's crazy that we have humans and then we have

871
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:01,640
animals where there's endless species.

872
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:05,360
You know, we shouldn't really just call them animals, especially because we're animals

873
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:06,360
too.

874
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:10,000
It's like there's this great divide that we've created.

875
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:18,160
But yeah, if you feel particularly empathetic towards a species of animal, like if you went

876
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:22,400
vegan because you found out about chickens, you know, what really happens with chicken

877
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:28,240
eggs is to just get out there and know your subjects, learn a lot about your subject,

878
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:35,800
read, listen to podcasts, you know, watch people, you know, online talking about them.

879
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:40,800
And not only are you going to meet lots of people in that sphere who are going to really

880
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:47,400
encourage you to kind of do something about the fact that you're developing this empathy

881
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:50,480
for them, you're just going to learn more.

882
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:54,960
And I think just learning more gives you, I think it opens your empathy up.

883
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:56,120
We can all grow our empathy.

884
01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:00,440
We've all got it, but I really believe we can all grow it and just keep growing it and

885
01:15:00,440 --> 01:15:02,800
growing it and growing it.

886
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:09,880
And I think, yeah, knowing your subject really, really well helps you to find people who are

887
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:13,960
fighting, then you can join them and then you're away.

888
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:18,200
And it kind of happens organically, but it did to me anyway.

889
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:21,680
Finding other vegans, that's the key.

890
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:26,760
You've got to have support, you've got to have that support around you.

891
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:27,760
Incredible.

892
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:35,080
Yes, like this conversation and the way it has connected us and the pleasure we have

893
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:36,960
talking with each other right now.

894
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:43,160
Learning from each other, even today, you know, that's so nice to have learned things.

895
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:46,240
So Frank, what is your message?

896
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:49,000
First of all, I've never met a passive vegan.

897
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:52,680
We are very noisy.

898
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:53,680
We are annoying.

899
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:54,680
Not bad.

900
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:58,440
I agree with that.

901
01:15:58,440 --> 01:16:10,320
But if there are passive vegans out there, I would say to them that just for being vegan,

902
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,360
they are already doing a lot.

903
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:21,600
You know, they are saving a lot of water for the way they are eating.

904
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,360
They are saving a lot of land.

905
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:31,220
And most important, they are saving lives, you know.

906
01:16:31,220 --> 01:16:35,000
So that's not passive.

907
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:41,800
But if you want to do more, you can do more.

908
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:47,640
There are a lot of people that say, but I don't have any talent.

909
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,480
I cannot draw like you draw or paint.

910
01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:56,040
But I think we all have talents, maybe hidden talents.

911
01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:01,720
We all have wonderful talents to be discovered.

912
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:13,040
It's a matter of, I don't know, to speak with yourself, to stop from the daily rush and

913
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:24,200
to be honest with yourself and say, well, maybe I cannot draw, but I know how to cook.

914
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:28,660
Maybe I can show what I cook as a vegan.

915
01:17:28,660 --> 01:17:35,760
Maybe inspire others or maybe you are good at speaking.

916
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:39,280
As you can see, I'm not good at speaking.

917
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,280
No, you are.

918
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:47,520
I'm trying.

919
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:53,560
I'm not good at speaking in Spanish, imagining this.

920
01:17:53,560 --> 01:18:02,480
It's not easy, but maybe it's a matter of practice, like everything.

921
01:18:02,480 --> 01:18:07,940
Find your talent, work hard on it and show it to the world.

922
01:18:07,940 --> 01:18:15,720
We all have something to say or to, I don't know, maybe just maybe you can't say anything,

923
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:24,760
but for instance, maybe you are an athlete or a bodybuilder and you can show that to

924
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:33,240
the world that you can be totally healthy on a vegan diet or maybe you can write a song

925
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:34,240
about it.

926
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,640
There's a lot of things to do.

927
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:39,680
So that's it.

928
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:46,000
Find your talent, work hard on it and spread the message.

929
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:47,000
Awesome.

930
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:48,000
Definitely.

931
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:53,160
I used to think that I didn't know what to do with activism.

932
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:56,640
That's why I say it happens organically.

933
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:58,440
Everyone's got something, haven't they?

934
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:04,160
I really do believe I have this great hope that younger people will come up with activism

935
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,080
we haven't even dreamt of yet.

936
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:08,080
Yes.

937
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:12,680
That young people will come up with creative ways to be active.

938
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:14,880
Yeah.

939
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:19,160
It's incredible what young people are coming up with and a lot more younger people are

940
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:21,200
getting it these days as well.

941
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:27,280
I think young people are definitely like Frank's lovely children, you know, they are definitely

942
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:28,800
the future of it.

943
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:33,840
As Frank said in our last interview, the sound was a bit funny.

944
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:34,840
Yeah.

945
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:39,600
So I'm stealing Frank's words there from the last time we met that his children are

946
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:40,600
the future.

947
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:44,760
And I think young people, yeah, we've got big hopes for them to do things that are going

948
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:50,720
to blow our minds with how amazing they are for animals.

949
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:51,720
Fingers crossed.

950
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:52,720
Yeah.

951
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:59,920
Helen, Frank, thank you so much for having accepted my invitation a second time.

952
01:19:59,920 --> 01:20:05,200
You're true champions and truly you're inspiring.

953
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:07,200
Your work is inspiring.

954
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:12,760
I'm looking forward to discovering your art in the Art of Compassion book.

955
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:17,200
And yeah, you're welcome to come back anytime you want on this show.

956
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:18,600
So thank you.

957
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:19,600
Thank you so much.

958
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:20,600
Thank you.

959
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:21,600
Thank you.

960
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:25,640
And if you need a third time, we'll be glad to be here.

961
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:26,640
Don't worry.

962
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:27,640
Don't jinx it.

963
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:28,640
Okay.

964
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:30,120
Third time lucky.

965
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:32,560
Well, we both managed to make it this time.

966
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:37,600
Despite the daylight savings messing us around.

967
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:42,160
So yes, I'm going to miss these conversations on Saturdays.

968
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:47,200
We might be better next week.

969
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:48,200
Yeah.

970
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:50,520
But like I said, you're welcome anytime.

971
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:51,520
Back on the show.

972
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:52,520
It's been a real pleasure.

973
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:53,520
Thank you so much.

974
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:54,520
Truly it was.

975
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:55,520
Thank you, Rhian.

976
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,320
Thank you everyone for listening.

977
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:02,680
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

978
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,600
Let's encourage more people to take action.

979
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:29,480
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.