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My name is Ryan and you are listening to the Vegan Report.

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Today is a very special episode because we are welcoming one of the 15 most influential

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vegan athletes.

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According to VEG News, our guest Robert Schick is an American bodybuilder and vegan activist

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whose most recent book The Impactful Vegan caught my attention.

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It is basically a dose of clarity on everything related to vegan and animal advocacy.

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So if you feel lost or confused by the vegan world of activism, then the book and this

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episode are for you.

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You can pre-order The Impactful Vegan now.

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Follow the link in the description below.

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Robert, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you, Ryan.

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It is a pleasure to be speaking with you today.

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Thank you for having me.

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Amazing.

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I want you to be our tour guide across the labyrinth of vegan activism.

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You have met and talked to more animal rights activists than I will ever do.

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You have participated in maybe dozens, maybe hundreds of vegan initiatives and events.

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And most importantly, you have been vegan since before I was even born.

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So you have a sense of the evolution of the vegan movement.

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So can you draw us a rough map of the vegan world in terms of advocacy work?

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What is your outlook and how did that world evolve since you became a vegan activist?

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Yeah, thank you, Ryan.

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You're right.

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I've been doing this for a very long time, for almost 30 years, since 1995 when I grew

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up on a farm and decided to become vegan for the animals and no longer contribute to their

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suffering.

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As someone who raised animals and sold them at the auction to be turned into food, I wanted

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to set a different standard for myself and for society really to extend compassion to

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animals and understand that all animals share a universal truth, a single desire to live

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a life free of fear, pain and suffering.

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So that's what I've been somewhat obsessed with over the last 30 years, how to be effective

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and impactful for animals.

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So we have to step back a little bit and realize that we've had an animal rights movement in

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America and really around the world for about 60 years or so.

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And it's working to some degree to get people to care about animals and to look at animals

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differently and see them as individuals, not as food.

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But we haven't made as much progress as we had hoped.

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I mean, if you look at that as a whole, as a movement, we're working on different

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causes, we're championing different ideas and pushing different agendas.

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And some is working, some is not working, and some is not very effective at all.

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And other things can be quite effective.

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And so in the Impactful Vegan, what I really wanted to do was distill that down and recognize

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and try to understand what makes the biggest impact for animals.

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What moves the needle the most?

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If we're going to have a finite amount of resources, whether that's money, time, the

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numbers of people working on a certain cause or mission to reduce animal suffering, what's

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the biggest bang for our buck?

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Where can we save the most lives or spare the most lives at the lowest cost as far as

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our investment into that effort?

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And so I went out and started talking to people.

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I talked to nonprofit founders and organizations.

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Some of these are vegan animal charities that operate on $50 million budgets annually.

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They're obviously able to fundraise quite a bit and they're able to have an impact and

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do a lot of good with those resources.

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I interviewed for-profit companies as well, companies who have a structure set in place

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to be profitable and to be effective.

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And these are largely plant-based product companies that displace animal-based foods

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in the grocery stores or on restaurant menus and they've been successful at doing so.

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How are they doing that?

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And surprisingly, I even talked to some non-vegans who are doing a lot of work for animals.

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And you might think, well, how is that even possible?

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How are people being very influential in reducing animal suffering while still eating animals

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themselves?

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And it's largely due to the financial investments they give to these plant-based companies,

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the opportunities, the doors they open, the connections they have, the relationships with

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politicians or members of parliament or other areas of influence.

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And then of course, I called upon my own 30 years as a vegan advocate and activist who

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really this entire time has had a focus on being effective.

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So what's the answer, right?

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The answer is to look at a lot of the work that's already been done.

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So there are organizations out there like animal charity evaluators, for example, that

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has evaluated and scrutinized 3,000 different animal charities to look at their efficacy,

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how effective they are, how many animals they spare, how they use their resources, how they're

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perceived by the general public, in what ways they have the opportunity to grow and impact

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the future, what type of technology they're working on, the size of their base and influence,

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their historical background and changes, maybe legislative or policy changes they've enacted,

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changes they've been able to push forward that are now talking points or top of mind

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for the general public and all of that.

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So it took looking into some of the organizations like animal charity evaluators, charity navigator

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and some of these other organizations that have already done a lot of the legwork to

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find out which organizations are most effective and then discover why they're effective, what

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tactics, what approaches they take and how we can apply those into our own lives as individuals

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or how we can contribute to these existing organizations that already do a lot of good.

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And then it's reflecting on our own set of skills and talents and resources to figure

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out how we can best contribute to the world around us.

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And then I provide all kinds of stories and examples and interviews and food for thought

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and statistics and all of these things throughout the book, which makes, I think, for a really,

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really good read so people can get the ideas upfront, learning about effective vegan altruism,

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what that means, what that is, learning about how to identify your own strengths and skills

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and resources, how to incorporate those into your advocacy, how to stay motivated and inspired

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when it's a long road ahead and it's been a difficult road so far and not as much progress

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as we had hoped and in the face of adversity and how to celebrate all victories, all wins,

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not try to be obsessed with perfection, but try to be focused on forward progress and

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to not sweat the small stuff and just make sure we are being effective in our communication,

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in our advocacy, in our contributions and do the most that we can to help animals.

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Going back to that idea of MAP, there are so many initiatives out there and it is kind

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of hard to think, so now what?

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Where should I put my time?

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Where should I put my money?

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And I think that this book is a good answer to that question and I feel like there is

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a moment of before and after right now.

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I feel like there are more and more critical voices of the vegan movement, of the way we

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do advocacy work and that might bring a new change for the better, for the vegan movement.

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So do you see change coming in terms of how we organize, how we do activism work and all

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of that?

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Is there a new generation of activists coming up right now with a critical view of what

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was done?

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I think so, Ryan.

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And the reason for that is because we have to take a step back and listen to those that

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we are trying to reach.

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So often we think that our ideas are best or our forms of activism and advocacy and

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outreach are the right position or the correct position or if they are morally and ethically

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correct that also must mean that is what we have to follow because that is what logic

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in our brains might think leads us to influencing others.

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But we have to understand that we are not our own audience.

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It doesn't necessarily matter what inspired you to be vegan or me to be vegan.

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We have to understand why omnivores are not or why people are still consuming animals,

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what their beliefs are, what their fears are, what their worries and concerns are.

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We can't just say, oh, you don't have this moral compass or this North Star.

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It's a shortcoming on your end or something like that.

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We have to look back at religious context, at cultural heritage, at eating patterns,

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at economic situations that people are in, at habits that have been cultivated within

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us since we were born and have been embedded in our daily lives and activities since the

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beginning and we can't just expect someone to change their worldview overnight because

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that's the worldview that we have and we want them to share the same views as us because

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we believe them to be morally superior or most impactful for animals or most influential

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for the planet and all of that.

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And so in the impactful vegan, what I'm really encouraging people to do is look at the data,

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look at the evidence, look at the surveys.

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This is a very much a data-driven approach.

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That's why I look at things like animal charity evaluators who have the data.

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I look at phonolytic studies who have the research surveys, who have talked to thousands

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of people who are not vegan and asked them what would compel them to go vegan and what

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keeps them away from becoming vegan or adopting a vegan lifestyle or even just removing the

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word vegan in the first place and what motivates them to contribute to animal suffering or

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what would inspire them to take the actions to reduce animal suffering.

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To answer your question more directly, I think we're in an era right now where technology

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is going to play a major role in animal advocacy.

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We know that certain approaches are not quite as effective as we'd hope, like direct disruptive

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protests and such are very empowering for vegan advocates and activists.

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I've been there myself many times.

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They're very empowering for us, but in many ways, they turn people away from veganism,

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the exact people that we're trying to reach.

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They're just not responding well to that advocacy.

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That's based on real surveys, talking to real people.

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We can all have those conversations with our friends and family as well.

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How often do we change our worldview on anything, especially a very important topic when someone's

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yelling and screaming at us and calling us names and making demands or questioning our

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character and all that kind of stuff.

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It doesn't make us sign up to join that team all that often.

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Even if those of us who are perpetuating that know that there are billions of animals suffering

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and there's unbelievable, unimaginable suffering happening every second of every day.

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We're trying to be proactive.

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We're trying to be compassionate.

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We're trying to make a difference, yet sometimes our actions are turning people away.

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What we need to do is look at technology, look at alternative proteins, look at cultivated

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meat, look at precision fermentation, meat and dairy and other foods.

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Look at food technology that could literally change the way that meat is made and change

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the way that meat is consumed with a far greater reduction in animal suffering using animal

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cells and using new technology that is available.

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We have to recognize that if we're going to reduce animal suffering, it has to come through

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the food system.

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99.9% of animal suffering is through the food system.

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It's not from belts and wallets and purses and leather jackets and fur and not even through

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animal testing either.

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That's less than 0.1% of all animal suffering and much of that is even a byproduct of the

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food industry like leather and other aspects or a byproduct of the food industry in the

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first place.

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We have to address this issue first with food and as a society, at least in the Western

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world, we prioritize taste, cost and convenience.

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We've already shown, we've proven as a society that we don't care how our food is made.

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People might say, I'm afraid of these cultivated meat products or I'm afraid of processed foods

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or I'm afraid of precision fermentation.

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I'm a little nervous about it.

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Yet these same individuals are consuming slaughterhouse animals, other ingredients that are the bones

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and tendons and ligaments of animals like in gelatin, the scraps of the slaughterhouse

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floor that are in hot dogs that all Americans are eating all throughout the year, especially

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in the summertime, weigh protein and casein protein drinks that are byproduct of the dairy

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industry which many people on paper would oppose taking a baby calf from his mother

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and putting that calf on the menu and expensive restaurants as veal and having the mother

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turn into a milk producing machine.

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Many people might have a problem with that on paper but not through their actions.

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They're still eating cheese pizza.

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They're still buying milk.

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They're still eating cake and pastries and lasagna and things with dairy in them and

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they're still having whey protein drinks.

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What we have to do I think as a movement is recognize what the barriers are for people

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to adopt a more compassionate lifestyle and listen to their fears and concerns about protein

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intake and nutrition and wellness and all the loud noise about the carnivore diet or

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keto diet or paleo lifestyle and trying to get back to their primal roots and listen

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to those concerns and be available to answer those questions and to offer solutions and

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to introduce great tasting, affordable and convenient plant-based foods to an audience

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that's hungry for information, hungry for knowledge and looking for something new than

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the status quo.

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If we can really get people to move away from the convenience of the lifestyle that they've

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already enjoyed with this high amounts of fast food, animal agriculture products, some

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of the worst foods for their own health and for the environment and of course for the

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animals and try something different and get them to continue those habits and cultivate

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and nurture these new habits of consuming plant-based foods, finding their own favorites,

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finding their own favorite plant-based burgers or pizzas or sandwiches or wraps or sushi

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or whatever it is and getting them to be enthusiastic supporters to invest in their own dollars

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to vote for the types of foods they want to have available and to purchase those foods,

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support those companies, support those entities, keep plant-based products on the menu.

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Those types of actions will make a really, really big difference especially when we start

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going really big with that like impacting the public school system which here in America

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impacts 150 million kids a year.

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These types of things, working on food allergies, getting dairy and other shellfish and other

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things out of the food system that are common allergens and doing that for hundreds of millions

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of people, those types of things, passing policy changes that impact billions of animals

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like California Proposition 12, these types of big actions can have a huge, huge impact

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for animals but there's also the things we need to do daily such as listening to those

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who are concerned about what they might be missing out on and providing them with solutions

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so they can embrace a plant-based lifestyle with much more confidence.

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There is so much to unpack here.

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I want to take it from, you talked about as a movement, we should think as a movement,

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food as our priority, food animals as being the first target.

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When I think about doing stuff as a movement as a whole, I think about strategy and I think

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this is something we lack.

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Also cohesion because there are so many initiatives like I said before, organizations and activists

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out there and I don't feel like they are talking to each other and there is no, for

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instance, a big meeting every year to decide here are the issues we are going to focus

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all of our energy and resources on for the coming year, here are our goals and this is

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the impact we want and are going to make.

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When I contrast that with the big ag industry, I feel a bit distressed because I learned

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in economy classes in college that what made the big ag industry so powerful and incredibly

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efficient at influencing governmental policies is that they are a tightly knit group which

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behaves uniformly and strategically.

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They are not everyone, every Tyson and the rest, all of them doing something separate

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and not talking to each other like the vegan movement is right now.

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I am thinking about the new technologies here.

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You mentioned before lab-grown meat and I see now governments like in Florida banning

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lab-grown meat and this is the influence of big ag.

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This is the difference between their movement and ours.

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They are organized, every one of them is on the same page and they are strategic in their

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approach.

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What are your thoughts about what I just said and the whole issue?

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Those are very good points Ryan and I try to address those in the book to some degree

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and my perspective on that would be this.

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The movement started, really this animal rights movement started as a movement to help animals.

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Animal rights was very clear, reduce animal suffering and this is how we are going to

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do this back in the 1960s and probably into the 1970s.

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Then as it grew into the 1980s and 1990s and that is when I got into this, it really started

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to take on a bunch of different branches.

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Think of this as this base of a tree which was for a while when the community was very

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small it was very clear about these are the things we are going to do to reduce animal

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suffering and promote this vegetarian lifestyle that was probably the word more commonly used

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back then.

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But they were very clear about what they were doing.

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It was to support this idea of plant-based eating, to promote that within our friends

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and family and community, talk about the plight of animals, the suffering of animals and a

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relatively new factory farm system that has only been around for 100 years or so or less.

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This large scale industrialized factory farming is relatively new and it would have been very

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much newer in the 1960s and 70s.

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So it was trying to slow that down and promote this kind of happy, healthy, a little bit

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alternative vegetarian lifestyle.

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As we moved into the 90s, it took on lots of different branches from this tree.

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We really started to get into this health food scene and started talking about it as

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a health movement, as a food movement and bringing in the word veganism a little bit

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more commonly and it became a little bit less about animals and more about health and food

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for some people.

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And then other branches, even back then in the 90s, we were kind of concerned about the

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environment.

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We had all these oil spills that were massive.

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We had the rise in forest fires or all these other things or the elimination of the Amazon

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rainforest or the destruction of the Amazon rainforest to grow soybeans or to graze cattle

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or obviously to grow soybeans to feed the cattle and all of that as we're doing these

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clear cutting initiatives.

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I remember that was something that was on my radar in the mid 1990s.

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I was even out there protesting that, the clearing of old growth forest.

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I was involved in some of that.

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So we took on this environmental branch.

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So now we have this animal movement.

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We have this health branch.

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We have this environmental branch.

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Then we had this personal ego branch, I think, that came a little bit later, especially with

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the rise of the internet of self-identity and labeling that I am a vegan.

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This is what I stand for.

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This is who I am.

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I oppose this.

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I oppose you.

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And so there hasn't been, to use your word, I believe, a lot of cohesion in the recent

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decades, especially probably the last 10 years or so.

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It's gone in so many different directions.

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And so even within the organizations that I wrote about in my book, even if you look

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at the top four of the 3,000 animal charities that have been evaluated based on dozens of

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area of criteria, if you look at the top four that I mentioned for 2022, for example, they're

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vastly different.

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Some are involved in food technology.

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Some are involved in reducing animal suffering for primarily chickens, which are some of

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the most abused animals in the worst way and in the highest numbers.

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Another one is about research and data.

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Another one is about wild animals.

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These are all totally different.

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And to answer your question, and it's a big question and it's really a fundamental question,

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how do I even decide out of those top, let's say the top four?

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And of course, there's dozens of other organizations from animal sanctuaries that I write about

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to for-profit food companies to nonprofit, very creative, like greener by default companies

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that use this plant-based by default approach to get plant-based as the default options

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in universities and cafeterias and public hospitals and all these incredible places.

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How do we know which one to even put our money into, put our support behind, put our energy

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behind, and all of that?

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I try to tackle that.

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I try to look at the net impact and looking at international influence, international

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organizations, which one of these top four or top 12 or top 20 that are written about

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in the book have a strong impact internationally, where the US dollar stretches so much further,

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especially in Africa, in Asia, and Central and South America, where we can make a tenfold,

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hundredfold, sometimes even thousandfold difference when you talk about how far money might stretch

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in sub-Saharan Africa and the amount of suffering that is going on there for animals in food

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system where just environmental conditions are so much worse, whether it's extreme temperatures

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or lack of veterinary care or lack of food and just total resources and animal care and

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all that kind of stuff.

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There's not one really good answer right now.

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It comes down to a little bit of personal preference and bias.

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We try to eliminate that as much as possible.

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But when you're talking about organizations that are all pretty equal as far as they're

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just working on completely different things, the future of food technology, helping animals

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immediately right now who are in the food system, conducting research to find out what

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non-vegans care most about, to know how to create our strategy and messaging.

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So at the moment, I think what we have to do is recognize that there are these top tier

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organizations right now.

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We've already determined that.

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And then really just pick the one that resonates the most with you to support.

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And the reason I say support these organizations is because of a very simple idea or concept

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that whether we like it or not, our contributions, our donations are so much more effective than

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our actions.

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And that's sometimes a little bit hard for people to wrap their head around.

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Like, what do you mean?

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My actions, I live this vegan lifestyle.

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I don't support animal suffering.

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All my money is spent on plant-based foods or on animal-free cosmetics or clothing or

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whatever.

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But we know based on the numbers that the typical vegan, like you were mentioning early

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on, maybe the kind of someone who's not just vegan kind of quietly and personally in their

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own life, but even the person that's relatively engaged and outspoken on social media and

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they talk to their friends and family and they're very clearly the token vegan in their

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community, everybody knows it.

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That individual still only spares 100 to 365 animal lives per year.

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But if you were to donate just 5% of your annual income for the typical American worker,

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which is around $50,000 annually as far as their income, if you donate just 5% of that,

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you know, $2,500, whatever that comes out to be, to one of these top animal charities,

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you'll spare 6, 7,000 animal lives, 8,000 animal lives.

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If you're up to 10%, which is doable for a lot of people really, just set aside $1 for

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every 10 you make or for every $100 you make, put 10 into this impact bucket that you want

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to contribute to the most effective animal charities, you can spare 16,000 animal lives

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per year.

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Just donating 10%, 16,000 animal lives or 5% of your annual income, 8,000 animal lives

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or don't donate at all and spare 100 to 300 animal lives.

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I mean, you can see the difference.

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It's something like 135 times more effective with just 10% of your income.

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And of course, some of us who are really deep in this movement, I'm to the point that I

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even annoy my wife because of how much I donate because what's mine is hers, right?

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And so she sees that I'm giving so much away where I might be contributing 30%, 40%, 50%,

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right?

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Not just 5% or 10%, but because I'm solidly and have been for a very long time morally,

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ethically committed to effectiveness in this movement, I give half of everything that I

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make right back into the movement, which I did the math.

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I'm combined with some other actions that I write about in the book, like the vegan

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strong method.

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I'm sparing something like 150,000 to 200,000 animal lives every year.

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How do you weigh that against 200 by just being a quiet vegan?

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200 animal lives spared or 200,000.

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00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,720
Now I realize not everyone is in a position.

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I've written a New York Times bestselling book.

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I travel around the world.

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I have lots of different revenue streams from being a very creative person.

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I have access to lots of resources, products, financial resources, et cetera.

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But even if you don't, even if you don't have access to all of that, I show people in the

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Impactful Vegan how to leverage what I call your strong V, your skills, talents, resources,

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your strength, network, generosity, and volunteering to make a profound impact.

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That's what I'm trying to get people to do.

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So Ryan, there's no one at the moment, unfortunately, there's no one answer.

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I'm not saying everybody give everything you have to the Good Food Institute.

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What if their alternative protein plans don't work out?

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Then we're in trouble.

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00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,280
I'm not saying go give it all to the Humane League and let's all go help chickens and

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just ignore fish and cows and pigs.

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But what I am saying is that there are a handful of organizations that are the best at just

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their net impact, mathematical equation, and you can decide, I think as an individual,

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00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:06,720
are you most interested in the future with food technology?

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00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,480
Are you most interested in right now?

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Like we've got to get these chickens out of the fast food system right now.

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There's another organization to help.

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If you're interested in, we have to learn.

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We can't just listen to ourselves and be in this own echo chamber and get pats on the

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00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,080
back and listen to our peers tell us we're doing a great job.

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We need to invest more money into talking to non-vegans and what is going to help bring

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00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,440
them over to our side of the conversation.

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We'll then invest there.

391
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But the bottom line is, and I hate to say it because I'm not a real big fan of capitalism.

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I'm just not.

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I'm not a big for-profit, money-driven society individual.

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It's why I give almost everything away.

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I'm just a natural, altruistic person.

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But the fact is, money makes a difference.

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And the more financial resources we have, the more good we can do.

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And we have to use our financial resources for good.

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00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:13,520
So I am encouraging people to open up not only their hearts but open up their wallets

400
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,960
as well because if you want to make the biggest difference, you do it through contributing

401
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,160
to the most effective causes, not just taking action.

402
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:29,080
One quick example I just thought of randomly is disaster relief.

403
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:35,140
Let's say massive earthquake, tsunami, hurricane, just kills lots of just thousands of people

404
00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:38,640
and animals, and there's all kinds of people and animals who are injured and need help

405
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,640
and all that.

406
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,960
What's a better use of your resources for you to go there and just help out by yourself

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00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:53,320
and with your limited medical experience or knowledge perhaps and do that or to send some

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00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,920
money to the trained experts who know exactly how to prioritize those who need the most

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00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:04,880
help and can label them as a one, two, or three, someone who is missing a limb or is

410
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,800
bleeding profusely is a higher priority than someone who has a sprained ankle.

411
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And we need to be able to identify that.

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And that's what we're doing with animals as well.

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We're realizing that there's some animals suffering in far greater degree than others,

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00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:22,560
and we need to prioritize those and we need to use our resources.

415
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,000
And it just takes our contributions rather than our actions that are going to make the

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biggest impact.

417
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:38,520
Well said and thank you for sharing the initiatives that you have personally taken.

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00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,320
I think it's important to inspire other people.

419
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:51,820
We often have this culture of, no, I won't say openly what I do in terms of giving or

420
00:34:51,820 --> 00:34:57,320
volunteering and all of that, like a sense of modesty or something like that, but we

421
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:06,880
should speak up about it because just to inspire our fellow men to do something.

422
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:16,760
And I want to maybe add a word of notice on everything you said because we're talking

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about actions inspired by data, by studies.

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00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:30,840
So basically, we should say that all of what you said is actions that to the best of our

425
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:39,920
knowledge are the most impactful actions, which highlights the importance of studying

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00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:48,640
this movement of, again, like you said, in many terms, understanding who we are and our

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00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,240
place.

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00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:57,640
And I also want to say that if we're not studying this movement and the activism we do, we can

429
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,560
count on Big Act to study us.

430
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,520
And they are actively studying all of our activism efforts.

431
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:14,080
There are literally firms that it's the whole mission to understand what we're doing and

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00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,600
how to prevent us from making an impact.

433
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:25,760
We don't have the luxury of just following our feelings and doing whatever we want.

434
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:36,320
We have this big Goliath here who wishes for us to fail and to not be impactful at all.

435
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,160
And so we can't just rely on inspiration.

436
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:49,600
So I feel like you're fighting the emotional side of this movement and trying to bring

437
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:55,520
the intellectual side more to the forefront of our concerns.

438
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:56,880
So what do you say about that?

439
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,000
I went a bit everywhere here, but...

440
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Yeah, yeah.

441
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,880
And I know this is a difficult conversation.

442
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,200
And let me tell you, Ryan, something you don't know that nobody knows, believe it or not.

443
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,200
And this is my sixth book.

444
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,800
It's not my first book.

445
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,560
I wrote, this is no exaggeration, I wrote 1000 pages on this subject.

446
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,060
It had to be narrowed down to less than 300 for the book.

447
00:37:19,060 --> 00:37:21,320
This is a very complicated topic.

448
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,400
Even when the book was finished, totally done, even with an editor and everything, the publisher

449
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,480
removed five chapters.

450
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,240
It was too long.

451
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,200
They cut out 80,000 words or something.

452
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,380
It was just too long.

453
00:37:33,380 --> 00:37:36,360
And then I had to write two new chapters, three new chapters.

454
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,680
And then when it was all done again, the book is done, ready to go.

455
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,400
Another editor came in and removed 16% of the entire book, which was tens of thousands

456
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,000
more words.

457
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,600
There's so much to cover here, including what you talked about, that Big Ag is watching.

458
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,400
And guess what?

459
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,400
They're winning.

460
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:01,280
You know what they're doing right now is the whole process thing, these ultra-process,

461
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,240
these beyond meats and impossible foods.

462
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,800
And those sales are declining.

463
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,640
And if you look on social media and you listen, get outside of your own personal bias and

464
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,120
listen, people are concerned about all these ingredients.

465
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,080
There's one ingredient here, beef.

466
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,800
This one has all these things, you know, pea protein, avocado oil or coconut oil or this

467
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,800
or that.

468
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,360
Now that's only one part of the story.

469
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,780
Obviously this, the plant-based version has far fewer resources in it, far less cruelty

470
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:37,680
in it, less fat, no dietary cholesterol, all these positive things.

471
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:43,800
A taste that's very similar, cost that's coming down, accessibility that's in 40 to 80,000

472
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,760
stores worldwide for these plant-based meats.

473
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,560
But the narrative by Big Ag is that this is ultra-processed.

474
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:59,400
Forgetting the fact that to get an animal from the pasture to your plate is an ultra-processed

475
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,840
process in itself.

476
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,680
That's, they're called processing plants, processing animals.

477
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,680
That's what they do.

478
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:07,800
They process animals.

479
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,360
But the narrative from Big Ag that has lots of money, that has government ties, that has

480
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:19,120
government subsidies, that has historical generational farming systems built in, that

481
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,840
has land and resources and all of these things.

482
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:30,200
And I also want to say, Ryan, it's not that farmers are bad people.

483
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,640
My brother, my own sibling, my younger brother runs a multimillion dollar cattle farming

484
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,640
operation.

485
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,120
I come from a farming background.

486
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,520
My father's an animal scientist.

487
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:45,600
He taught people for 30 years, college students, and those when he toured around to six continents,

488
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,640
how to raise animals for food.

489
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,440
They're not necessarily bad people.

490
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,440
And I'm not just saying that because they're my own parents and my siblings and all of

491
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,440
that.

492
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,240
I've been with them for 40 years that I've been around or 44 years as it were.

493
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:06,360
But I've spent a lot of time around farmers and in the agriculture industry.

494
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:14,780
From my childhood to my years in 4-H to being in agriculture communities, having neighbors

495
00:40:14,780 --> 00:40:18,400
and friends and family in this industry.

496
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,400
That at the end of the day, most of us, regardless of what we do, we're just, we're trying to

497
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,240
make a living for ourselves and our families, whether we're working as a computer programmer

498
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:35,280
or a podcaster or work at the grocery store down the street or a furniture store, or we

499
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:36,280
sell animals.

500
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,200
It's oftentimes that's what we know.

501
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,200
That's what we do.

502
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,400
That's what we know how to do.

503
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,800
That's what we pay bills.

504
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:52,900
So there's all kinds of, there's so much to, as you said, to unpack here about how to be

505
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:55,560
effective and impactful for animals.

506
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,320
I want to make sure we cover a couple more things.

507
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,080
Maybe I have that opportunity to do that here.

508
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:09,240
I think personal bias is massive in this, in our movement.

509
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,560
I've already touched on the fact that we think that our forms of advocacy are right.

510
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,880
We think that what we're doing is best.

511
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,960
And for perspective, Ryan, a lot of these organizations that I'm now promoting and supporting

512
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,360
and encouraging people to get behind, I wasn't, I wasn't supporting them until I learned about

513
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,360
them.

514
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:32,760
I didn't know about Dharma Voices for Animals and the impact they have on the global, the

515
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,620
global food system and how they work in all these developing countries and money stretches

516
00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:44,240
so far working in Sri Lanka and Vietnam and Cambodia and Thailand and all of these areas.

517
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:49,380
They weren't on my radar before, but now they're an organization that I support.

518
00:41:49,380 --> 00:41:54,120
One of those reasons was because I talked to someone personally, a monk in Sri Lanka

519
00:41:54,120 --> 00:42:00,280
who through his connections with parliament, he himself was responsible for preventing

520
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:07,200
100,000 monkeys from being deported to China to be used in animal testing laboratories.

521
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:12,840
That's the power of influence, of knowing our strengths and weaknesses and our connections.

522
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,080
He's connected to parliament.

523
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,080
He's a monk.

524
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,320
He's very well respected in his country.

525
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,320
He's plant-based.

526
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:26,920
He was, he's spasing, neuters dogs and helps prevent that, you know, that type of animal

527
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,040
overpopulation and abandonment and suffering and all that.

528
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:35,080
And oh, by the way, he also spares, you know, 100,000 primates from being deported to be

529
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,200
tested, you know, in animal laboratories.

530
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:45,480
There's things like that, that we need to become aware of.

531
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,520
And so what I want to say is look at these comparisons for personal bias.

532
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:57,620
Let's say, let's say your friend's cat gets hit by a car.

533
00:42:57,620 --> 00:42:58,720
You care about your friend.

534
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:01,120
You care about your friend's cat.

535
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:06,880
Naturally, your heartstrings are going to say, you know, you're short on money.

536
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:12,560
I mean, your friend, you're talking to your friend, hey, here's $500 to help or $1,000

537
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,840
to help with the vet bill, I know how much your cat means to you and all that kind of

538
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:17,840
stuff.

539
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,160
But you look at that option, let's say it's $1,000.

540
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,160
Keep it easy.

541
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,600
$1,000 to rehabilitate this cat that you play with when you go visit your friend, you know

542
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:34,280
the cat's name, you have this personal bias toward, you care about this cat, understandably.

543
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:42,200
But for $1,000, that could prevent tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of

544
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:51,040
animals being bred and born and brought up in the food system to be slaughtered in the

545
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,040
developing world.

546
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:57,840
Or it could rescue hundreds or maybe even thousands of animals, particularly chickens,

547
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:03,400
ones that are pretty affordable to spare and save in the developing world, as the Humane

548
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,000
League talks about being able to spare a chicken's life for as little as 33 cents.

549
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:13,600
So what do we do given those circumstances?

550
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:20,040
Do we follow our intuition and our heart and help our friend's cat, which is a nice thing

551
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,840
to do, and help one individual domesticated animal?

552
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:35,040
Or do we help thousands and thousands of chickens, turkeys, fish, pigs, and other animals who

553
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:42,480
are suffering, unbelievable, in unbelievable conditions, right here in North America and

554
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,600
throughout the world?

555
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,520
I think we owe it to ourselves and owe it to the animals to take a step back and look

556
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:58,520
at the massive fishing industry and the animals that suffer in the largest numbers, which

557
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,520
are fish.

558
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,920
Look at the poultry or chicken industry.

559
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:09,320
We should call it what it is, not use terms like poultry or beef or lamb, but individuals.

560
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:10,720
These are chickens.

561
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:16,400
And look at that industry and look at the massive amount of suffering, I think 9 billion

562
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:22,560
with a B, 9 billion chickens harvested just here in the United States and 65 billion throughout

563
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,920
the world.

564
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:32,240
And look at how we can make a difference internationally with the resources that we have.

565
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:36,880
So I think we need to look at personal bias and remove that as much as possible and follow

566
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,280
what the data and evidence suggests.

567
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:47,160
And that was a really fun adventure or a journey in writing this book is that I knew some of

568
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,200
this, but there's a lot that I didn't know.

569
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,360
There's a lot that I learned throughout this process.

570
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:58,880
And that changed my perspective because I was now informed of more effective, efficient,

571
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,480
and impactful ways of helping animals that were not on my radar before.

572
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,040
I just assumed that, well, I've been vegan for a long time.

573
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,440
I know what's best.

574
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:13,160
That's the whole point of writing a book and talking to dozens or hundreds of others, including

575
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:18,760
people who have been doing this longer than me or who have been more impactful than me

576
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:24,040
or who run these massive nonprofit organizations with budgets of tens of millions of dollars

577
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,440
who are continuing to get support because they're doing really good stuff.

578
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:35,960
And then I think we also need to recognize how we can have a more unified voice.

579
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,560
We do have some conferences and conventions.

580
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:43,240
In fact, I'm going to one soon, the Animal and Vegan Advocacy Summit.

581
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:48,960
So that is where a lot of advocates get under one roof for three or four days and talk about

582
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,840
strategy, strategy, strategy.

583
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:56,240
But that's only one organization and there's only about 700 people who go to that at the

584
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:57,320
moment.

585
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:04,720
So it's very small compared to what the large industrial agriculture machine is doing with

586
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:08,880
their messaging, cohesiveness, et cetera.

587
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,400
There are other conferences, too.

588
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,240
I went to another one last year, the Reducitarian Conference.

589
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:20,920
I was hesitant to go because they're not fully vegan as their message.

590
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,960
Their whole goal is reducing factory farming or eliminating factory farming.

591
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,840
But I was very skeptical.

592
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,560
In fact, I questioned them, especially my earlier writings.

593
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:37,880
I didn't make it into the book, but I was very critical of the hypocrisy of this organization

594
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:45,600
that even their founding members who are committed to reducing and eliminating factory farming

595
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,320
still eat animals.

596
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,000
How is this possible?

597
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:57,760
But I went to the conference and I learned that because they come from a more academic,

598
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:05,440
intellectual, corporate approach, they are effective in their own campaigns and methods

599
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,600
because they took emotion out of it.

600
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:15,560
Whereas a lot of people who are in the animal rights, like I am, very ethically driven,

601
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:21,120
morally driven based on the actions that we take and what we will and will not support,

602
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:28,200
we kind of get blinded by that ethical perspective that someone else outside of our bubble might

603
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:29,200
have better ideas.

604
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:35,000
And especially when you look at this organization, again, I was hesitant to even endorse them

605
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,040
or promote them or even support them in any kind of way.

606
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:46,400
This reducitarian concept, I thought it was just so hypocritical and so weak and lacking

607
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:54,120
like this fortitude and strength of spine and ethics and morals and all these things.

608
00:48:54,120 --> 00:49:04,320
But they have intel, they have knowledge about factory farming and what makes that work and

609
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:13,360
how to talk with farmers and reduce those government subsidies, reduce the profits,

610
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:24,600
which makes that as a career or job less enticing and have things like transformation, transforming

611
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:31,400
people out of farming, animals and farming mushrooms or plant crops instead.

612
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:37,080
And to that point, even my own brother is doing more of that, whereas it's sometimes

613
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:42,360
hard to profit farming cows or cattle.

614
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,880
And so now he told me that 75% of his farming on a thousand acres or whatever the space

615
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:55,520
is, is oats and barley and other plant crops because you've got to follow the money, you've

616
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,840
got to follow the economics.

617
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,680
And so there are some organizations out there that are trying to mobilize, that are trying

618
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,260
to get people under one roof and have conversations.

619
00:50:07,260 --> 00:50:15,940
The problem is, Ryan, is that as you know, veganism is an animal rights movement, giving

620
00:50:15,940 --> 00:50:18,600
voice to the voiceless and helping animals.

621
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:25,600
Yet people are more likely to come into this overall fold, under this big umbrella, they're

622
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,280
more likely to enter for their own personal health reasons because they've heard that

623
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:36,480
a plant-based diet is good at dropping weight because it's low in calories, it's good at

624
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:41,560
fighting disease because it's high in antioxidants and it has anti-inflammatory properties rather

625
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,240
than pro-inflammatory properties, it's good at reducing cholesterol because there's no

626
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,400
dietary cholesterol in a plant-based diet.

627
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:53,840
It's also good at fighting disease because it has anti-cancer compounds in it.

628
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:59,680
It has 64 times more antioxidants than animal-based foods.

629
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,320
Fiber is only found in plants.

630
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,480
97% of Americans don't get enough fiber.

631
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:10,640
People are brought into this overall movement, this vegan, we'll use the vegan as the umbrella,

632
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:17,640
for health or for the environment, but they're not necessarily on board for the core reason

633
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,040
the movement exists.

634
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:26,400
That's what makes it hard to have one universal, unified voice because we're coming at all

635
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,760
these different angles to care about the same thing.

636
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:38,960
Whereas perhaps in animal agriculture, the core mission is to feed a population as effectively

637
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:44,800
as possible using animals as a means to do that and to profit as much as possible in

638
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:51,160
order to keep doing it and to work with governments and work with communities to make sure their

639
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:57,800
products are on every plate in front of every American or every person in the Western world

640
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,880
and they do a very, very good job at that.

641
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:08,400
We have a long road ahead, but I'd like to think that I provide a lot of solutions and

642
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,160
a lot of hope and a lot of inspiration.

643
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:17,960
I also call upon data that suggests that meat consumption is an all-time low in the UK since

644
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,240
they started recording this in the 1970s.

645
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:23,320
It's also an all-time low in Germany.

646
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,820
Also profits for plant-based foods are at an all-time high in America.

647
00:52:28,820 --> 00:52:34,720
Even if animal consumption is still at record pace, that's largely due to population growth,

648
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:36,880
which is also very rapid.

649
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:43,840
But as a society, and maybe it's similar in Canada as well, we are making very, very good

650
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:49,160
progress and we're also able to identify why we're making that progress, which in many

651
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:58,440
cases, as I argue, is through food technology and innovation and bringing costs down, convenience

652
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,280
more palatable, and of course, making the taste more enjoyable, which at the end of

653
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,760
the day, we're trying to reach this omnivorous audience.

654
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,840
That's ultimately what we have to do.

655
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:16,280
I like that you're trying to elevate the discussion around veganism and advocacy work.

656
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:25,160
I think when I see vegans screaming inside a butcher shop or inside a restaurant, I feel

657
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,200
like I want to join them.

658
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:34,680
That would make me feel really good to scream at all of those people.

659
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,320
But is it doing some good to animals?

660
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:39,320
No.

661
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,760
It's pretty clear.

662
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:54,560
Okay, so it is easier to confront a big ag and to face them as adversaries or enemies.

663
00:53:54,560 --> 00:54:00,560
We understand their incentives, like you said, we understand their goals and what they are

664
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:01,560
about.

665
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:09,040
But then, because again of the emotional, it is much harder to deal with the non-vegan

666
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:14,920
population because just like in your case, they are our friends, they are our family,

667
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:22,040
they are our loved ones, members of our community, people we care about.

668
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:29,800
At the same time, they are enemies of our movement in a different way than big ag, of

669
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,180
course.

670
00:54:32,180 --> 00:54:33,180
It's complicated.

671
00:54:33,180 --> 00:54:37,160
How should we deal with those non-vegans?

672
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:44,640
You talked about it a little bit, but I want to go at the heart of this issue and maybe

673
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:53,520
try to reimagine our relationship with the non-vegan population.

674
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,000
I think your book is very helpful in that aim.

675
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,280
What would you say about that?

676
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:07,640
We have entire sections about the book on that topic and we quote work from Melanie

677
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,000
Joy, who is fantastic and has done amazing work in this movement for decades.

678
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,640
We quote many other people and we interview people and tell stories and examples and use

679
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,640
evidence and data to support these ideas.

680
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:27,320
I know it's hard to articulate everything that is in this book and the topics that are

681
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,080
covered and how we address those things.

682
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,160
I'll try briefly for this particular topic.

683
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:41,560
What we have to do is see non-vegans as allies and find ways where they can support the work

684
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:42,560
that we do.

685
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,240
I can't tell you how many non-vegan friends and family I have that are allies who go out

686
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:50,920
there and support my books and help them become bestsellers, which then gives me a bigger

687
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,280
platform and gain more followers.

688
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:59,400
I have very much non-vegan family members who are very passionate about eating animals,

689
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:05,240
but they will very enthusiastically tell their friends and others about their cousin or their

690
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:10,280
nephew, me, because I've made some sort of influence on the world stage and they're kind

691
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,320
of proud to be associated with.

692
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,720
My cousin is this New York Times bestselling author and he's this champion vegan bodybuilder

693
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:19,000
and he's in great shape.

694
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,800
If you have questions about becoming vegetarian or reducing meat or if you have an allergy

695
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:30,160
to dairy, which 70% of the world does, then he's a good resource for that.

696
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:36,640
We've got to allow these individuals to be allies for us.

697
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,920
We do that through eating by positive example and not alienating people and excluding them

698
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,080
and saying you're an awful person and I hope you die and all these other things because

699
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,680
you kill animals through your actions and what you pay other people to do and the food

700
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,480
that you eat and all of that.

701
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:55,440
I have an entire – it's one of my favorite sections actually in the book – an entire

702
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:01,840
section called the Vegan Strong Method, which essentially is leading by positive example

703
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:07,560
and getting plant-based foods and products into the hands of non-vegans so then they

704
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:13,200
get exposed to this, get a chance to replace calories that would have been consumed by

705
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:18,960
animal-based foods, replace those with plants, and get these individuals to incorporate these

706
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:24,480
foods into their lifestyle on a more regular basis, whether that person becomes full-on

707
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:25,880
vegan or not.

708
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:31,320
I have plenty of examples from my own personal life of doing precisely that.

709
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:38,400
I have some good friends, for example, who are intellectually on board with veganism

710
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:39,840
but not through practice.

711
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:45,080
They totally get it, but their habits are just when confronted with a menu at a restaurant,

712
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,960
they're going to go with eating chicken or what they're used to because that's just

713
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,160
what their default idea is.

714
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,120
Or when they're into fitness and exercise, they're going to go buy whey protein because

715
00:57:56,120 --> 00:58:00,440
it's cheaper, it's what everyone else is doing, and it's what they learned, and they

716
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,440
want to build muscle, and they're concerned about their own results.

717
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:05,760
That's what they're going to do.

718
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:12,960
For these friends, and it's friends and family and even some strangers in some regard, this

719
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,800
is what I do.

720
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,960
I recognize what they're looking for, what their needs are.

721
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,160
Then I provide them with these opportunities.

722
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:30,000
I have, for example, even right here on my desk, I think, stacks of free Beyond Meat

723
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,000
products.

724
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,800
I have free Impossible Food.

725
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,040
You don't even have to pay for it.

726
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,200
It's a $10.99 value.

727
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,440
I pass these out like crazy.

728
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,920
I passed out $100,000 worth of Beyond Meat coupons in one year.

729
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,320
Thank you to Beyond Meat for that opportunity, by the way.

730
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:51,920
What I've done is I've introduced plant-based meats to all my friends and family, even if

731
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:53,600
they never go buy them again.

732
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:59,080
At least for that particular meal, it spares animals that would have been on their plate.

733
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:00,920
You know what, Ryan, what happens?

734
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:02,760
They do go buy them again.

735
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,680
They remember my generosity.

736
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,160
They remember the fact that they like the way it tasted, or they like the experience,

737
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:13,440
or they feel better about it because they're already emotionally or intellectually on board,

738
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,400
and they want to make a compassionate choice if only someone helps guide them.

739
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,600
I provide all these different things for my friends.

740
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,160
I have a weightlifting friend.

741
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:26,920
I give him, because of my connections, I get all the free plant-based products that I want.

742
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,600
I get hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of plant-based products donated to me.

743
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:36,680
I'm staring out into a basement full of them right now, of protein powders and nut butters

744
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,480
and vegan jerky, and there's vegan Parmesan cheese.

745
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:40,760
There's oat milk lattes.

746
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,240
There's ready-to-drink protein drinks.

747
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,760
There's cereal, breakfast cereal.

748
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,880
There's these plant-based meats.

749
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:50,320
There's pre-workout drinks.

750
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:51,320
There's bars.

751
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,120
I mean, I'm surrounded by this stuff.

752
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:55,880
This is part of my vegan strong method.

753
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:56,880
You know what I do with it?

754
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:58,520
I send it to my friends.

755
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:03,320
I give it to my friends who are, if they're eating animal-based jerky, I give them plant-based

756
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:04,320
jerky.

757
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,520
I give them cheese on their pasta and on their food.

758
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,040
I give them this plant-based cheese.

759
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:14,160
My weightlifting friends, I give them tubs of plant-based protein powder because I know

760
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,320
they're going to be using one serving or two servings every single day, and it's going

761
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,600
to come from whey protein or casein if I don't do it.

762
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:22,600
And guess what, Ryan?

763
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,600
The same thing happens.

764
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:28,920
They start using a product for 30 days, 60 days.

765
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,840
All of a sudden, that becomes their new preference.

766
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:33,200
That's their new default.

767
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,240
That's what they, now they go out and buy it.

768
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:41,280
So it's not just me paying for shipping and paying money out of pocket, which I do, or

769
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,440
give them when I go visit in person or whatever.

770
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:51,880
But now I've helped condition them to make a plant-based meat something that's going

771
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,360
to be their default option.

772
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,160
Or when it's time for them to order new protein powder, they've already been using this plant-based

773
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:58,160
one for months.

774
01:00:58,160 --> 01:00:59,920
They're like, yeah, that's what I want more of.

775
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:02,300
Now they invest their own dollars.

776
01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:12,600
So that's how I look at non-vegan allies as people who can help support the movement,

777
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:20,400
can invest their own money into it once we introduce them to these foods and beverages

778
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:26,560
and sports nutrition products and the reasons why it's a more compassionate way to go.

779
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:32,680
I think one of the problems is that many vegans, myself included, for a very long time have

780
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:40,640
my own personal bias, or we have our own personal bias to want people to share the same values

781
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:41,700
that we do.

782
01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:47,060
We wish our parents would get on board, not just because of their own personal health

783
01:01:47,060 --> 01:01:50,960
or maybe it'll help their longevity or prevent heart disease or whatever.

784
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,360
But we want them to share our value system.

785
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:54,760
We feel closer to them.

786
01:01:54,760 --> 01:02:00,480
Our parents, our spouses, our partners, our children, our siblings, our loved ones, we

787
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,960
want them to share value system.

788
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:10,680
But as Paul Shapiro beautifully said in the book when I interviewed him, we can't just

789
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:11,680
win arguments.

790
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:13,280
We can't just be out there.

791
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,240
I know you feel motivated.

792
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:19,880
I want to go out there shouting and yelling, and I want to feel like I'm standing up for

793
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:20,880
animals.

794
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:22,840
I am making a difference in their lives.

795
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:27,000
I'm responsible for their liberation.

796
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,240
I get that emotionally.

797
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:34,340
But as Paul Shapiro said, we can't just win arguments with non-vegans.

798
01:02:34,340 --> 01:02:36,300
We have to win them over.

799
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:38,720
I win people over all the time.

800
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:43,640
I win non-vegans over all the time because I have my fitness results.

801
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:44,640
I'm fit.

802
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,700
I have this positive attitude.

803
01:02:47,700 --> 01:02:49,280
I'm very generous.

804
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,400
I give products to people.

805
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:59,000
I rarely even leave the house without having a bag full of plant-based products in the

806
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,840
car in case I come across someone, whether it's someone holding a sign in need and I

807
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:12,000
know they're going to get cheap fast food from someone else or money or whatever.

808
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,960
But I can give them plant-based foods, whether that's fruit or bars or something I know that's

809
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:16,960
going to resonate with them.

810
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,240
I'm not going to give them nutritional yeast, but I'm going to give them a plant-based chocolate

811
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:26,280
bar or multiple chocolate bars or nut butters or something that's very common, that's going

812
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:31,920
to be very tasty and it's going to help alleviate some of their hunger and suffering or simply

813
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,960
bananas and oranges, which I keep in the car for that purpose.

814
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:39,440
Or when I go to the gym and I meet some people and they see my vegan shirt and they see that

815
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,680
I'm in shape, they see that I'm fit and strong and they want to ask me questions.

816
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:43,680
They say, hold on a second.

817
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:44,680
I got something for you.

818
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:45,680
I got something for you.

819
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:46,680
Hold on a second.

820
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,440
I've got my gym bag right there.

821
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,180
I work with 150 plant-based companies.

822
01:03:51,180 --> 01:03:52,180
This is my gift to you.

823
01:03:52,180 --> 01:03:53,960
This is a plant-based protein.

824
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:54,960
It's pea protein.

825
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:56,080
It has all the essential amino acids.

826
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,080
It's really good for muscle recovery.

827
01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:59,080
Take it after workout.

828
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:00,400
You don't need the whey protein.

829
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:01,640
This is an alternative to that.

830
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,840
This is actually an upgrade, a step up, like that kind of stuff.

831
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:06,840
That's how you work.

832
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:08,780
And of course, I tour.

833
01:04:08,780 --> 01:04:10,160
That's all in the book too.

834
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:15,920
I tour to events with tens of thousands of non-vegans at fitness expos and I lead by

835
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:22,700
example and I distribute something around 5,000 to 25,000 plant-based products at every

836
01:04:22,700 --> 01:04:25,760
expo that I go to just for free.

837
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:31,800
And that's another way to engage with potential allies.

838
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,320
The worst thing we can do is alienate people.

839
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,520
And I see it on social media all the time, including many of my friends and colleagues.

840
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:40,040
And I know their heart is in the right place.

841
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:41,040
I know it.

842
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,880
And in some ways, they do make a positive impact because they inspire us to be more

843
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:51,120
active or to be more outgoing or to take initiative or to care more.

844
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:52,760
I get it.

845
01:04:52,760 --> 01:05:01,720
But so many of these online videos of debates and arguments and name calling and, you know,

846
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:06,480
look at this loser on the carnivore diet and, you know, they're going to die soon from heart

847
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:08,240
disease and all this stuff.

848
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:15,360
That doesn't really win people over to join our side of this conversation.

849
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:22,360
What I believe does and what the data suggests, like literal survey data of thousands of omnivores,

850
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:31,280
what it does suggest is that news articles, books, positive social media posts, things

851
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:38,440
of that nature, conversations, those move the needle to help animals.

852
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,040
Celebrities only help to a small degree.

853
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,840
Billboards are really not that effective at all.

854
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:44,840
They don't.

855
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:46,840
Vegans see it and they give thumbs up.

856
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,840
Wow, look at that vegan billboard.

857
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,560
Omnivores don't even notice it or it doesn't change their behavior.

858
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:56,040
They don't see a billboard and all of a sudden, oh, I'm having a revelation here.

859
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:57,680
I'm changing my worldview overnight.

860
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,440
I can't believe I ate animals for the last 50 years.

861
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,920
That billboard told me I shouldn't.

862
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:07,080
It just doesn't work that way.

863
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:14,960
News articles, information articles, opinion letters to the editor, opinion letters, books

864
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:26,120
that are evidence based, factual, conversations, inspirational, thoughtful videos, those kind

865
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:36,280
of things, those types of outreach help much more than the disruptive protests and such,

866
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,240
at least as far as winning over omnivores.

867
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:45,200
Now, you could argue that maybe some of these disruptive protests free a bunch of animals

868
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:49,720
and as long as they find homes and all that, there's value in that.

869
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:56,440
Or if it gets like a certain farm, like a fur farm shut down, that's a positive thing.

870
01:06:56,440 --> 01:07:01,560
But again, remember that 99.9% of animal suffering is in the food system.

871
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:03,240
We've got to tackle that.

872
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:09,480
It's the best of our ability and sometimes that even means winning over these agriculture

873
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,320
companies.

874
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,320
I just came from the Natural Products Expo West.

875
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,440
I was there like three days ago.

876
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,160
The biggest Natural Products Expo in the world.

877
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,880
I go every year, three or four thousand exhibitors there.

878
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:28,240
There are many mainstream companies that are offering plant-based products now.

879
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,720
You know what I saw, Ryan, for the first time?

880
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:32,280
I saw Muscle Milk.

881
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:36,840
You know, the big popular Muscle Milk brand, they have a plant-based version now.

882
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:39,080
That's I think something to be celebrated.

883
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,720
Even though, yes, you're paying money, it still goes to the parent company.

884
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:44,360
It's probably Nestle or somebody like that.

885
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,880
I don't even know who it is that owns Muscle Milk.

886
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:53,440
But when you vote for that plant-based item, it helps make it more prominent.

887
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,400
I even asked them, I said, are you, is this a product that you're actually promoting or

888
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:02,720
is it just for, you know, for show or is it something that you plan to promote or is it

889
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:03,720
nationwide?

890
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,320
They said, yeah, yeah, this is a product we plan to push nationwide.

891
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:14,000
Very much like Burger King and the Impossible Whopper or all of these other entities that

892
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:15,840
are creating plant-based versions.

893
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:21,600
Again, I'm there in the trenches, on the front lines, talking to these companies.

894
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:27,320
In fact, two of the companies that I work with that were not vegan companies, they offered

895
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:30,840
a plant-based version, you know, and I promoted it like crazy.

896
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:31,840
I supported them.

897
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:38,440
I invested money into buying their product and getting my thousands of followers to buy

898
01:08:38,440 --> 01:08:41,080
them to the plant-based versions.

899
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:46,440
Now at least two of those companies that were not vegan are now totally vegan.

900
01:08:46,440 --> 01:08:51,160
They got rid of their dairy options because the demand was high enough for the oat milk

901
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:56,200
version of the coffee that they got rid of the dairy.

902
01:08:56,200 --> 01:09:00,040
Now I don't know if that had anything to do with me or not, but I think there were enough

903
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:08,280
people like me that voted for the products that we wanted that company to offer and they

904
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:09,280
did that.

905
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:11,720
The other one was a bar company, a snack company.

906
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:13,760
They did the same thing.

907
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:19,760
They had non-vegan ingredients in their bars and through our initiative through the Vegan

908
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:24,560
Strong Method, we distributed their plant-based versions to audiences all throughout America,

909
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:29,760
thousands of people, as well as online through shipments that we do, shipping products with

910
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:33,920
my books or with my plant-based box bundles, that kind of thing.

911
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:40,600
Again, the demand was increased enough that they decided to turn the whole company vegan.

912
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,840
Those are some success stories.

913
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:47,960
There's many throughout the book as well from catering companies that use this plant-based

914
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:54,480
by default approach and decided to offer plant-based options and realized that a thousand people

915
01:09:54,480 --> 01:10:00,200
a day for this catering company, for example, I wrote about it in the book, had no problem

916
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,920
with one of their meals throughout the day being totally plant-based that they made it

917
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:04,920
a permanent thing.

918
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:10,520
They only serve vegan food now, a thousand meals a day and their company was previously

919
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:11,940
serving animals.

920
01:10:11,940 --> 01:10:17,000
But during this COVID pandemic, they had a shift in their mentality and realized that

921
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:22,560
they needed to take a stronger stance on animals in the food system and the environmental implications

922
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:23,560
and costs.

923
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:28,840
And as a company, they decided they were going to do plant-based foods only and even have

924
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,880
a vegan mission on their website.

925
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,080
Business did not slow down.

926
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:39,720
And in fact, it's soaring a thousand vegan meals every single day that they serve.

927
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,600
And that's just part of their agenda.

928
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,200
And then there's organizations, I know we're running out of time.

929
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:49,440
I didn't even mention yet like Food for Life Global.

930
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:50,680
Can you imagine what they do?

931
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,880
Ryan, are you familiar with Food for Life Global?

932
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:58,400
No, but by the way, if you want to go a bit over time, I'm okay with that.

933
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:02,400
I just wanted to share some of these exciting things that I know there's a lot to be concerned

934
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:07,820
about and the messaging and veganism and animal agriculture stranglehold on the movement and

935
01:11:07,820 --> 01:11:08,820
all this stuff.

936
01:11:08,820 --> 01:11:12,480
But there's organizations like Food for Life Global.

937
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:15,680
They've been around for more than 40 years.

938
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,380
They provide, are you ready for this?

939
01:11:18,380 --> 01:11:26,680
They provide one million vegan meals to hungry children in the developing world every single

940
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:28,080
day.

941
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:29,080
Not every year.

942
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,920
I just told you about a company that serves a thousand meals a day and that's incredible.

943
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,840
A thousand vegan meals a day and I was all excited about it.

944
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:37,120
This company out in Hawaii.

945
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:43,000
But now I'm talking about an organization that feeds one million vegan meals to hungry

946
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:47,320
children every single day for as little as 50 cents per meal.

947
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:48,680
How the heck do they do that?

948
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:57,880
Well, they provide grants for local organizations in places like Kenya and Uganda and all throughout

949
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:08,320
Africa, and in Central America and in India and poorer countries where you can get a major

950
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:14,600
plant-based meal in the local cuisine different in Morocco compared to India, compared to

951
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:16,600
Paraguay.

952
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:23,840
Whatever that local cuisine is, the US dollar can get you a meal for a hungry child for

953
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,280
less than 50 cents a day.

954
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:33,240
And so these grants that Food for Life Global provides, these local entities in these developing

955
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:41,640
countries, are grants of 500 to 20,000 US dollars each, but they provide collectively

956
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,640
a million vegan meals a day.

957
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:50,560
We know that there's one billion, just about, 800 million starving people in the world every

958
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:51,560
single day.

959
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,980
Two billion that are undernourished.

960
01:12:55,980 --> 01:13:03,160
So about a billion people starving and double that who are food inadequate, food insecure.

961
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:09,320
And Food for Life Global is going in and helping with that, providing only plant-based meals

962
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,640
to those in need, particularly children.

963
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:16,000
And to this day, you can go to their website, there's a counter on their website.

964
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:20,140
It's going every second of the day because even during this conversation, they would

965
01:13:20,140 --> 01:13:23,080
have said, what's the math on that?

966
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:28,400
Tens of thousands or even maybe close to a hundred thousand children just during this

967
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:29,780
hour long conversation.

968
01:13:29,780 --> 01:13:30,780
It's incredible.

969
01:13:30,780 --> 01:13:36,400
They've provided, last I checked, over 8.6 billion meals.

970
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,320
And I met the co-founder in person.

971
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:43,400
Not only do they do that, they also own an animal sanctuary in Columbia.

972
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:50,800
I interviewed Juliana for the book, Juliana's Animal Sanctuary in Columbia, 10,000 feet

973
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:56,920
elevation and they provide education programs there for their local country and get people

974
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:05,440
to understand the relationship that humans can have with animals that are traditionally

975
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:10,840
considered farmed animals and see them as individuals and see them as those who have

976
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:15,160
their own needs and wants and interests and their own family dynamics and their own desire

977
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,560
to live a life free of fear, pain and suffering.

978
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,080
They do some really good work at Food for Life Global.

979
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:26,520
And in fact, I didn't even mention this and I should probably mention it more, but I just

980
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:27,520
didn't.

981
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:35,420
But even every single copy of the Impactful Vegan that is sold, I'm donating a meal to

982
01:14:35,420 --> 01:14:36,840
a hungry child.

983
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:39,080
That's part of the altruistic approach.

984
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:43,720
And I'm also, as you've read in the conclusion, I'm also contributing to about five other

985
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:44,760
organizations.

986
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:51,200
So it's not that I'm only giving 50 cents per book sold to feed a hungry kid in Africa

987
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:52,760
or in the developing world.

988
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:59,360
I'm actually contributing to many of the world's leading animal charity organizations because

989
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:05,760
as we stated from the beginning, it's our contributions that are so much more impactful.

990
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:16,040
What I want, Ryan, ultimately, as we wrap up here is I would like every reader to find

991
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:22,600
an organization or two to contribute something to so that we can have this incredible impact

992
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:30,160
that rather than sparing 100 to 365 animal lives per year by living a kind of quiet personal

993
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:39,640
vegan life that we can donate 1%, 2%, 5%, 10% of our annual income to the most impactful

994
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,360
animal organizations in the world.

995
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,160
And you choose, I have a whole list.

996
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:46,080
There's a list of dozens of them in the book.

997
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,080
You pick.

998
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:55,040
And that way, as an individual, we can all spare five to 10,000 animal lives or more

999
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,280
rather than just 100 or 200.

1000
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:05,640
And that's a way where we talk about cohesion collectively making a really big statement.

1001
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:11,760
Imagine let's just say this book sells tens of thousands of copies and it should.

1002
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:12,760
My other books have.

1003
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:13,760
They all have.

1004
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:14,760
So it should.

1005
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:18,880
I realize it's a different topic than vegan fitness, which all my other books were, but

1006
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:24,280
this book very likely will sell tens of thousands of copies.

1007
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:30,520
Now imagine if even just a fraction of readers decide that we're going to get together collectively

1008
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:32,280
pool our resources.

1009
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,000
And by the way, you have far more resources than you know.

1010
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:38,000
I mean, I talked about that in the book too.

1011
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:42,840
The network that you have, the people that you know who have additional resources beyond

1012
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,280
what you have is actually incredible whether you know it or not.

1013
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:52,980
But if we can pool our resources together and say, okay, this is the future that we

1014
01:16:52,980 --> 01:16:58,360
believe in and we're going to vote for and we are going to invest in and we put our collective

1015
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:03,040
funds into the most powerful animal charity organizations and we're able to raise maybe

1016
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:09,120
millions of dollars and spare just tens or hundreds of millions of animal lives, just

1017
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:11,120
an incredible amount.

1018
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,080
We will make an impact.

1019
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:14,360
We'll make a statement.

1020
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:20,160
But also I really believe because there's a lot of strategy in this book about how to

1021
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:24,280
support plant-based food products because ultimately that's what we've got to change.

1022
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:29,400
That's what we've got to change what's available in grocery stores and in restaurants worldwide.

1023
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:37,680
If we can do that, we're going to see a lot more from Burger King and McDonald's and Subway

1024
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:45,960
and Starbucks and KFC and Pizza Hut and Domino's and Dunkin' Donuts and Tim Hortons and all

1025
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:46,960
these companies.

1026
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:53,560
We're going to see them feeling the pressure to add more plant-based products to their

1027
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:54,560
menu.

1028
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:59,000
We've already seen that in the big boom that we saw right before COVID where everybody

1029
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:04,920
was putting Beyond Meat on their menu and everybody was putting oat milk on their menu.

1030
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,800
We can do it again if we all work together.

1031
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:15,240
And that's what I'm really hopeful with this book is that there is some cohesion.

1032
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:21,320
There is some sort of direct line that shows you how to best use your time and resources

1033
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,560
and energy and how to share that with others.

1034
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:29,960
Ultimately, that's what I want people to do, to learn from this book, apply the strategies

1035
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:31,800
and then share them with others.

1036
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:37,080
And that's precisely what I have done as an individual myself where I went from being

1037
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:43,700
fairly impactful and fairly effective to being very, very impactful and very effective simply

1038
01:18:43,700 --> 01:18:51,040
by changing my perspectives, changing my contributions and being aware of the global economy, the

1039
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:58,840
global impact and the bigger picture and really enthusiastically voting for the future that

1040
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:02,760
I want to see by incorporating all these different strategies.

1041
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,080
And some of them, I have to say, are incredibly rewarding.

1042
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:11,880
I don't think we should be ever driven by the personal fulfillment we get from doing

1043
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:12,880
good.

1044
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:16,120
We shouldn't be the opposite of being altruistic.

1045
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,200
We should want to help the world because the world needs help.

1046
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:22,960
We should want to help animals because they are in need of help, help our fellow humans

1047
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:27,200
because they are in need of help, not because we should get anything in return, even this

1048
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:29,920
feel good warm glow feeling.

1049
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:35,600
But the fact that that's there, the fact that we do enrich our own lives by helping others,

1050
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,400
I think is a powerful motivator for a lot of people.

1051
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:44,560
Well, Robert, there are a few questions I wanted to get to.

1052
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:54,040
If I could ask them and have your quick answer to so I can ask all of them.

1053
01:19:54,040 --> 01:20:01,760
You mentioned how there are different reasons why people get to veganism and become vegan.

1054
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:08,760
And I think there is a clear sense and also backed up by studies.

1055
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:15,760
I'm thinking right now of one study from Thunalytics that if you are vegan for health reasons or

1056
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:21,840
the environment, you're not going to stay vegan for very long.

1057
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:30,860
You need something more like a greater motivation, a greater why in order to sustain your veganism

1058
01:20:30,860 --> 01:20:33,840
for the coming years.

1059
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:41,960
And I was wondering, do you see a hierarchy of why in terms of how to get to the vegan

1060
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:42,960
lifestyle?

1061
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:45,400
Yeah, and I'll try to be brief.

1062
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:46,400
It's hard for me.

1063
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:47,400
I know.

1064
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:55,440
But I actually argue that point a little bit because I make an argument in the book about

1065
01:20:55,440 --> 01:21:00,280
habit changing that I don't think you have to have a moral imperative to develop habits

1066
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:01,280
that last for the long haul.

1067
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:06,920
I call it the forks over knives effect where there are many people who, countless people

1068
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:11,480
who are inspired to leave animals off their plates because of forks over knives, even

1069
01:21:11,480 --> 01:21:16,760
if they don't subscribe to moral veganism, they may still buy leather shoes and belts

1070
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,880
and wallets and wear fur and all that, but they just keep animals off their plate and

1071
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:24,760
they develop habits that have lasted for years and years and years and years.

1072
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:29,200
So what I think is there's two different perspectives.

1073
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:35,520
It's what brought you into veganism and then what compelled you to stay vegan for the long

1074
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:36,520
haul.

1075
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:39,560
And yes, I would agree with that, that phonetic study.

1076
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:43,560
And I do reference it in the book as well, that for people who stay vegan from the long

1077
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:50,160
haul, usually there is some sort of moral or ethical attachment to it.

1078
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:54,080
But we also know that vegan recidivism is very high.

1079
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:58,360
And even people, and I know people, I'm sure we all know them.

1080
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:03,840
People who are former dedicated vegans who leave veganism, even those who worked for

1081
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:08,280
animal rights nonprofits and were very much into it, they still leave.

1082
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:12,480
And so my argument is that veganism is the answer.

1083
01:22:12,480 --> 01:22:15,160
It's reducing animal suffering that is the answer.

1084
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:20,080
And so if people come to veganism or let's say a plant-based diet for health and wellness

1085
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:23,320
reasons and they stick with it for decades and decades and decades, even if they don't

1086
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,760
call themselves vegan, that is a win for animals.

1087
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:31,360
So is there a hierarchy for why?

1088
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:39,320
Maybe but because our whys change, because our priorities change, because of our desires

1089
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:45,080
change, our perspectives change, I think habit forming is really the key.

1090
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:49,560
And so regardless of what brings us to change new habits, as long as we keep those habits

1091
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:53,640
for as long as possible, I think that's the ultimate solution.

1092
01:22:53,640 --> 01:23:00,940
But then do you believe that vegan leaders are as, or non-vegan leaders rather, are as

1093
01:23:00,940 --> 01:23:04,720
effective as bringing up the change?

1094
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:10,960
Because I mean, I have an example in mind of someone who started an animal sanctuary

1095
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:17,440
and she has two caretakers who are not non-vegans, who are not vegans.

1096
01:23:17,440 --> 01:23:23,120
And she was telling me about their perception of that animal sanctuary and of the animals

1097
01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:31,680
in there and how it contrasted with hers and how they were truly sometimes in conflict

1098
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:37,160
with how we treat animals and how we provide them with care.

1099
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:44,080
And there I see the true value of a vegan voice in the animal rights movement.

1100
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:51,040
And also how do we take seriously someone who wants to fight for vegan rights, for animal

1101
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:56,360
rights, rather, and who is not even vegan in their personal life.

1102
01:23:56,360 --> 01:24:00,480
And same could be said about the environment.

1103
01:24:00,480 --> 01:24:07,720
So do you see value for leaders to be vegan in the animal rights fight?

1104
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:09,200
Yeah, I do.

1105
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:17,200
And I think there comes with that this authentic and genuine approach with someone who walks

1106
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:21,840
their talk and who is consistent with their moral values that they preach.

1107
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:23,240
I think that is important.

1108
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:28,800
But at the same time, I also look at the data and realize that we're trying to impact the

1109
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:30,880
food system right now.

1110
01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:36,500
And so we have to identify what's working in that regard.

1111
01:24:36,500 --> 01:24:43,160
And sometimes there are non-vegans who are very, very effective at creating change in

1112
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:46,280
that area because they have hundreds of millions of dollars.

1113
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:47,560
I even know personal friends.

1114
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:51,600
I have personal friends who are non-vegan who have hundreds of millions of dollars who

1115
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:57,240
do invest into the vegan movement through the plant-based products they create.

1116
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,280
I actually give multiple stories in the book.

1117
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:06,400
In fact, many of the plant-based meat products that many of us know and love are created

1118
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:08,360
by total non-vegans.

1119
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:11,840
Totally non-vegans made those products like Gardein that many of us love.

1120
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,720
Yeah, Yves Poppin, Canadian, made that, French Canadian.

1121
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:19,320
Yves Veggie Cuisine, which has been around since 1985, maybe consumed more than any other

1122
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:21,920
plant-based meat in the history of the world.

1123
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:25,280
Non-vegan made that.

1124
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:30,160
Beyond Meat is only successful, nothing against Ethan Brown, but because of all the non-vegans

1125
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:31,160
that invested in there.

1126
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:36,440
All the athletes and rappers and basketball players that poured in tens of millions of

1127
01:25:36,440 --> 01:25:38,280
dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars.

1128
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:41,200
But like Shaquille O'Neal, they're not vegan.

1129
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:49,560
But I see a divide between the business world and the non-profit activism world.

1130
01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:51,080
Do you think there is a difference?

1131
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:54,800
Because I don't care if the entrepreneur is vegan or not.

1132
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:58,320
I think they can still make that impact you talk about.

1133
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:10,600
But in terms of activism work and the non-profit sector, shouldn't PETA only employ vegans,

1134
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:11,600
for instance?

1135
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:17,000
Yeah, I think when you're talking about, and these are different things, when you're

1136
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:23,480
talking about community organizers and grassroots movements, I think there needs to be a cohesive

1137
01:26:23,480 --> 01:26:24,520
voice there.

1138
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:26,800
And there needs to be authentic leadership from the top.

1139
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,300
I think that's kind of a given.

1140
01:26:30,300 --> 01:26:34,920
But we also have to look at the commercial aspect.

1141
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:41,200
These non-profits are only having a small influence on, let's say, the food system.

1142
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:43,440
They're having some sort of influence, but it's small.

1143
01:26:43,440 --> 01:26:51,680
So that's why I spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how we actually change

1144
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:56,920
that food system, which is where we bring in some of the people from outside the vegan

1145
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,500
world who are experts in the food world.

1146
01:26:59,500 --> 01:27:06,040
That's why there's former executives from Pepsi or Nestle or Kraft Foods or Tyson that

1147
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:10,600
join or that are hired by some of these plant-based companies, because we have to learn their

1148
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:11,600
language.

1149
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:12,600
We have to learn their industry.

1150
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:14,760
We have to learn their business.

1151
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:21,060
And we have to become almost like a business itself within veganism to move it forward.

1152
01:27:21,060 --> 01:27:25,880
So the grassroots community organizers are always going to be important, and they're

1153
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:28,540
going to be the foundation of the movement.

1154
01:27:28,540 --> 01:27:32,080
And yeah, there needs to be some sort of consistency there.

1155
01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:38,080
That's why I told you I had such a struggle with the reducitarian movement, because even

1156
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:44,720
their leader still eats animals, even though he's committed to reducing factory farming.

1157
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:48,880
And I struggle with that.

1158
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:53,800
And maybe that's going to influence their effectiveness, ultimately.

1159
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:55,800
Maybe I had a hard time taking them seriously.

1160
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:01,480
I had a hard time even wanting to support them, whereas I had no problem supporting

1161
01:28:01,480 --> 01:28:11,260
the very authentic animal organizations like Farm Sanctuary or the Humane League or Mercy

1162
01:28:11,260 --> 01:28:12,760
for Animals or some of these other ones.

1163
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:15,320
It's very easy to get behind those.

1164
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:17,180
And so I do think that's important.

1165
01:28:17,180 --> 01:28:24,240
But I think that only tends to reach those of us within the vegan community.

1166
01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:30,520
And what I'm trying to do as much as possible is reach the other 99% and hear what their

1167
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:37,520
needs are, what their wants are, and try to work outside of the vegan world in order to

1168
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:40,440
create that kind of massive change.

1169
01:28:40,440 --> 01:28:42,280
And so it's a delicate balance.

1170
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:51,920
And I'm the first to honor and appreciate those who are authentically vegan.

1171
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:59,380
In fact, I struggle with someone like Peter Singer, who is the father of the animal rights

1172
01:28:59,380 --> 01:29:05,680
movement and one of the top living philosophers in the world.

1173
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:10,500
But his own behavior is inconsistent with moral veganism.

1174
01:29:10,500 --> 01:29:18,220
And if you're not familiar with that, if a meal is brought to him that has dairy, cheese

1175
01:29:18,220 --> 01:29:26,040
on it, eggs, whatever, by accident, they brought him the wrong dish at a restaurant, he'll

1176
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:27,040
still eat it.

1177
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,280
He'll still eat the animal products.

1178
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:31,120
He talks about this publicly.

1179
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:32,120
He writes about it.

1180
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:35,160
He talks about it in interviews like this.

1181
01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:40,520
He will still eat it because he's more concerned about food waste and doesn't want it to go

1182
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:41,520
to waste.

1183
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:46,580
And he trusts that those who are in his company having dinner with him will understand that

1184
01:29:46,580 --> 01:29:54,040
he's typically very authentic in his moral behavior.

1185
01:29:54,040 --> 01:30:00,800
But in this instance, he'd rather just eat the cheese burrito, just eat the sour cream,

1186
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:07,860
cheese, have the milk products on there rather than having it go to waste.

1187
01:30:07,860 --> 01:30:11,440
I don't know exactly his stance on meat.

1188
01:30:11,440 --> 01:30:15,480
Like if they accidentally bring chicken in his burrito, he'll eat that.

1189
01:30:15,480 --> 01:30:19,000
But that would be consistent with his other behavior of eating cheese and eggs, which

1190
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:24,280
are clear examples he's already verbally given in multiple interviews that I've seen.

1191
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:34,720
So I struggle with that as well, because I am somewhat of a vegan purist myself, never

1192
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:42,180
strain from the moral tenants that I subscribe to and have for 30 years.

1193
01:30:42,180 --> 01:30:51,080
But I also understand that perfectionism is one of our enemies as well.

1194
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:52,600
I'm not saying make compromises.

1195
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:55,800
I'm not saying do what Peter Singer does.

1196
01:30:55,800 --> 01:31:00,720
But what I'm saying is the understanding of others who are maybe new to veganism, who

1197
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:07,480
make some mistakes, who slip up from time to time and be still encouraging and welcoming

1198
01:31:07,480 --> 01:31:13,440
rather than saying, you know what, you're not part of the club.

1199
01:31:13,440 --> 01:31:17,860
And there's other aspects I give examples in the book where perfectionism can really

1200
01:31:17,860 --> 01:31:18,860
turn people away.

1201
01:31:18,860 --> 01:31:23,120
If you're just not willing to sit in a car with leather seats, even though it's a rental,

1202
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:28,960
it's not something you paid for, or you're unwilling to make some of these compromises

1203
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:32,960
or sacrifices like to go to a restaurant that serves animals on the menu.

1204
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:38,400
You only want to go at 100% vegan restaurants or eat at your home.

1205
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:42,640
Yet the same individuals will go shop for vegan foods at a grocery store that has dead

1206
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:46,840
animals all throughout the grocery store.

1207
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:52,720
So perfectionism is something we have to be a little bit cognizant of and make sure it

1208
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:56,160
doesn't push people away.

1209
01:31:56,160 --> 01:32:02,320
But authentic leaders I think are important, but also maybe questioning leaders in the

1210
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:03,320
first place.

1211
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:09,960
Like, I mean, do we need to have leaders or can we have our own ideas about the things

1212
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:14,200
that we learn from studies and research and data?

1213
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:16,760
What is truly effective at reducing animal suffering?

1214
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:20,960
And do we have to look to a certain leader for their approval?

1215
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:23,680
I'm not so sure.

1216
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:28,600
Well I really wanted to have your take on that question.

1217
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:32,880
Another question and the last one, I promise.

1218
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:33,880
It's okay.

1219
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:34,880
I know I'm long-winded.

1220
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:35,880
I have a lot to...

1221
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:37,840
I wrote a thousand pages on the subject.

1222
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:38,840
It's hard to...

1223
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:47,280
Well, I hope that you publish all that was deleted from the first versions of the book,

1224
01:32:47,280 --> 01:32:53,160
at least as an article or even a blog post, because I'm really curious about all of the

1225
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:57,720
things that were removed from the book.

1226
01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:02,400
So I'm looking forward to reading all of that too.

1227
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:10,000
But yeah, coming back to the question I wanted to ask you, and this one is related to social

1228
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:11,680
media.

1229
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:18,080
I've done a whole episode expressing my critical views of social media.

1230
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:22,280
I truly believe that they are harming the vegan movement.

1231
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:31,880
You were talking about how it was efficient and impactful to make positive social media

1232
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:32,880
posts.

1233
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:39,840
But the thing is, I don't think that the social media platforms want you to make positive

1234
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:41,040
social media posts.

1235
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:50,440
I think they are made like a casino to have these crazed behaviors, to instill these crazed

1236
01:33:50,440 --> 01:33:56,800
behaviors in you and push you into conflict, push you into addiction, push you into the

1237
01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:59,240
worst version of yourself.

1238
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:07,560
So I think it's a tall order asking people to make positive social media posts.

1239
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:15,440
It takes maybe going against all the psychologists and engineers that have been creating the

1240
01:34:15,440 --> 01:34:24,360
algorithms on social media that are designed to make you, again, the worst version of yourself.

1241
01:34:24,360 --> 01:34:26,080
So what is your take on social media?

1242
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:31,520
Do you find that there is truly a negative aspect to them?

1243
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:39,920
By the way, I'm not even touching on the whole dimension of the vegan community, the personality

1244
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:49,600
cults, the nonsense science, all of that gibberish, which makes a big part of the social media

1245
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:58,760
presence of vegans and which is dangerous, actually dangerous in terms of nutrition for

1246
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:02,280
the vegan community and for people at large.

1247
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:11,680
Because again, the platforms don't have quality standards in place.

1248
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:22,280
They will echo and add scale to posts that are popular, people that are popular, not

1249
01:35:22,280 --> 01:35:29,880
people that are experts or have something of quality to contribute.

1250
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:33,920
So what is your take on social media?

1251
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:38,240
Do you think they are ultimately a force for good for veganism?

1252
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:45,880
Yeah, that is a tough question and a tough one to give a brief answer, but I'll try.

1253
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:53,200
I was smiling and nodding a lot because you may not know this about me, but I have a tremendous

1254
01:35:53,200 --> 01:36:01,120
love, hate relationship with social media where I've deleted the apps for sometimes

1255
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:03,600
an entire year at a time.

1256
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:07,440
No Facebook, no Instagram, no Twitter, nothing.

1257
01:36:07,440 --> 01:36:08,600
I can't even get it on my phone.

1258
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:10,460
I delete it completely.

1259
01:36:10,460 --> 01:36:14,280
And I'll tell you, those were the most productive years of my life.

1260
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,840
I freed up on average about six hours a day.

1261
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:18,120
I didn't know I had.

1262
01:36:18,120 --> 01:36:23,080
I wrote three or four books during that time where I still haven't been on Twitter in two

1263
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:24,080
years.

1264
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:26,080
I deleted the app and just never put it back.

1265
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:27,480
I have put on Instagram back.

1266
01:36:27,480 --> 01:36:29,920
I've put on Facebook, put those back.

1267
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:37,280
And that's all I use and YouTube to watch some mostly conversations and podcasts.

1268
01:36:37,280 --> 01:36:42,520
So how do I even begin?

1269
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:46,360
Again I look at the data and the evidence and according to one particular phonolithic

1270
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:54,520
study of thousands of participants who were omnivores, they claim that social media, positive

1271
01:36:54,520 --> 01:37:01,040
social media posts about veganism not only changed their ideas about veganism in a positive

1272
01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:09,080
way, but also changed their behavior and made them either become vegan or consume fewer

1273
01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:10,080
animals.

1274
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:13,960
So that tells me there's some good stuff out there.

1275
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:19,240
To your point, and this is something I've struggled with from the beginning, something

1276
01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:22,080
that I don't even think people were talking about 20 years ago.

1277
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:26,760
And it wasn't a jealousy thing, but I think you and I have the same mindset that I always

1278
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:33,200
thought it was strange when everyone had essentially an equal voice.

1279
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:38,440
If you're not an expert in that domain, why should your voice matter as much as someone

1280
01:37:38,440 --> 01:37:39,440
else's?

1281
01:37:39,440 --> 01:37:42,720
You know, when we grew up, I know I'm like I'm much older than you.

1282
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:45,600
Like you said, I've been vegan longer than you've been alive.

1283
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:50,560
But there were only a few platforms where you got your information from and it was at

1284
01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:55,480
least we assume it was trusted and maybe that was a whole manipulation.

1285
01:37:55,480 --> 01:37:58,880
Maybe that wasn't, maybe that was a whole conspiracy, who knows.

1286
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:03,560
But we had what we thought were real journalists providing real information.

1287
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:08,560
That's where you got it from and you could go to domain experts like world renowned experts

1288
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:15,720
would be whether they're scientists or nutrition experts or whatever the topic is, they would

1289
01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:22,840
be the ones that would be giving the answers about public health, about climate, about

1290
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:29,120
the economy, about global poverty, whatever it was.

1291
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:32,480
But then, and I've been a part of this from the beginning, you know, I was one of the

1292
01:38:32,480 --> 01:38:34,480
early members of MySpace.

1293
01:38:34,480 --> 01:38:39,200
I was one of the early members of YouTube when you could only upload a video for less

1294
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:40,200
than 10 minutes.

1295
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:42,680
You couldn't, you weren't allowed to upload a video more than 10 minutes.

1296
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:43,680
It wasn't allowed.

1297
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:48,520
And you had to do an SD card from your camera and you couldn't do it from your phone.

1298
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:53,880
You had to put this SD card into your laptop and upload a 10 minute video or less.

1299
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:58,280
I was part of all of that and I watched it grow.

1300
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:05,080
And I watched this, if you want to call it this misinformation or this obsession with

1301
01:39:05,080 --> 01:39:11,440
self and this ego and the loudest person in the room, whether they had any knowledge or

1302
01:39:11,440 --> 01:39:15,960
not, their voice rose to the top because they were the loudest.

1303
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:21,200
And also I've been listening to countless hours of psychology podcasts for years now.

1304
01:39:21,200 --> 01:39:24,600
That's actually been a part of this whole book writing process.

1305
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:31,360
I've committed myself to listening to, you know, hundreds of hours of psychology interviews

1306
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:35,400
with incredible university professors and psychologists and world renowned experts on

1307
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:39,280
some very, very popular podcast platforms.

1308
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:44,680
And now with the American elections coming up and a lot of topics have been around that

1309
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:49,520
where they've made some statements recently, some again, like legitimate experts on this

1310
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:56,560
subject from Harvard and Penn State and the biggest universities in the world have talked

1311
01:39:56,560 --> 01:40:03,360
about the reason why some of these voices are the loudest are because these are individuals

1312
01:40:03,360 --> 01:40:07,960
who are obsessed on the topic at hand.

1313
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:09,240
Let's say politics.

1314
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:15,800
I may not think about American politics more than two minutes in a day, but my neighbor

1315
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:23,880
might spend 12 to 18 hours obsessed with it, just cannot cannot get enough of it.

1316
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:26,880
Who do you think is going to be louder on the Internet about politics?

1317
01:40:26,880 --> 01:40:28,360
I don't think about it.

1318
01:40:28,360 --> 01:40:30,080
It never enters my mind.

1319
01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:36,920
Yet my neighbor for 18 hours, every waking moment of his or her day is concerned about

1320
01:40:36,920 --> 01:40:39,080
these political issues.

1321
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:44,520
The same is true for veganism, for carnivore diet, for whatever.

1322
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:49,800
Those who are just most absolutely obsessed about it.

1323
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:54,560
This this this dominates their whole life when you when you meet someone for the first time.

1324
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:59,200
That's what they talk about when you get together with your friend after 30 seconds of hi, how

1325
01:40:59,200 --> 01:41:00,200
are you?

1326
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:04,260
It goes into that topic when you're at dinner.

1327
01:41:04,260 --> 01:41:06,440
Your friend won't stop for two hours straight.

1328
01:41:06,440 --> 01:41:10,680
You can't even get a word in because he or she has just too much to share about their

1329
01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:16,400
particular diet, philosophy, lifestyle, mentality, worldview.

1330
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:20,000
This is how we engage on social media.

1331
01:41:20,000 --> 01:41:28,880
Those of us who maybe have a lot of knowledge in an area also know that we don't need to

1332
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:31,480
overshare or we don't need to say what we don't know.

1333
01:41:31,480 --> 01:41:37,320
We don't have to make these projections if science is inconclusive or whatever.

1334
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:41,480
It's that whole academic mindset of being a little bit more reserved.

1335
01:41:41,480 --> 01:41:45,880
And then there's people, it's the whole Dunning-Kruger effect.

1336
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:50,720
Those of us who have limited knowledge but are highly passionate about it tend to be

1337
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:56,120
the loudest and tend to in many ways gain a massive following, a big audience, even

1338
01:41:56,120 --> 01:41:57,560
make a career out of it.

1339
01:41:57,560 --> 01:41:59,080
We see this in American politics.

1340
01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:01,120
I'm sure it's in Canada, too.

1341
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:03,080
We see this all the time.

1342
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:10,760
And we're seeing it in the world of veganism, whether it's what Joe Rogan says and how that's

1343
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:16,360
then shared by everyone else or a major podcaster, what they share or what a major influential

1344
01:42:16,360 --> 01:42:18,120
person shares.

1345
01:42:18,120 --> 01:42:26,480
And then this whole sound bite or talking point or misinformation point.

1346
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:31,280
I have at times absolutely hated social media.

1347
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:36,600
And there's also something I don't like about myself with social media.

1348
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:43,080
And it's hard to say it sometimes because we have to challenge our own ego.

1349
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:53,960
That I get interested in the feeling that I get that feeds my ego when I have posts

1350
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:59,880
that go viral or that get viewed by lots of people or that make me feel good.

1351
01:42:59,880 --> 01:43:08,280
I mean, I do these silly flexing photos all the time because I want to be given praise

1352
01:43:08,280 --> 01:43:13,080
or reinforced that I'm doing a good job or that I do look good.

1353
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:14,360
I'm looking for validation.

1354
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:15,840
I'm seeking significance.

1355
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:17,080
I'm seeking importance.

1356
01:43:17,080 --> 01:43:22,400
Yet I know how obnoxious I am by posting like, yeah, vegan for 29 years and here, look at

1357
01:43:22,400 --> 01:43:24,600
me over and over and over.

1358
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:31,320
But that's because I have the same insecurities that many others have.

1359
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:36,720
I want validation that I'm doing a good job or that I do look good or that my hard work

1360
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:41,200
is paying off or whatever the case is.

1361
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:44,440
And that then makes me addicted to it.

1362
01:43:44,440 --> 01:43:45,760
I've been full on addicted.

1363
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:50,040
There's only a few things I've been, I think, truly addicted to in my life.

1364
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:52,160
Caffeine being one of them, but I'm over that now.

1365
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:56,520
It took me a long time to get over that.

1366
01:43:56,520 --> 01:44:01,800
Social media is one, the internet, but largely social media.

1367
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:09,000
I've been so addicted that when I'm driving a car and I'm at a red light, I quickly check

1368
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:10,000
to see what I can post.

1369
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:13,660
When I'm in a grocery store and I'm stuck in line even for only two minutes, I check

1370
01:44:13,660 --> 01:44:14,660
whatever I can.

1371
01:44:14,660 --> 01:44:19,160
Anytime there's idle time waiting, I'm checking at dinner, waiting for food, I'm checking.

1372
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:25,080
When I'm having a conversation with family or friends, I'm checking under the table.

1373
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:27,840
I'm posting late at night before bed.

1374
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:32,680
The first thing when I wake up, the first thing I check is taking complete control over

1375
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,720
my life in many ways.

1376
01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:38,560
And I always justified it that, oh, I'm doing this to promote veganism.

1377
01:44:38,560 --> 01:44:41,880
I'm doing this to spread the good word.

1378
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:49,640
But I'll tell you, I was far more productive when I got off it because I was creating truly

1379
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:55,340
impactful work, writing bestselling books, writing articles for popular websites, having

1380
01:44:55,340 --> 01:45:02,280
more time to invest into training and nutrition and building my body and being a walking billboard

1381
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:05,080
for veganism in a physical sense.

1382
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:06,360
I was a better friend.

1383
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:07,360
I was a better partner.

1384
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:10,160
I spent more time with my pets.

1385
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:11,160
I read more.

1386
01:45:11,160 --> 01:45:12,160
I learned more.

1387
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:14,960
I had less stress, less anxiety.

1388
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:21,720
I was just, I hate to use the term, like a better person, not using social media.

1389
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:25,400
So ultimately, is it good or is it bad?

1390
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:28,420
The data suggests it can be very good.

1391
01:45:28,420 --> 01:45:32,560
But I think it comes down to the user and how you decide to use it.

1392
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:36,720
If you're someone who posts lots of negative stuff or who brings out, as you said, the

1393
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:39,720
worst in ourselves, then it's probably negative.

1394
01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:44,480
If you're someone who really tries to find the best and really promote the most encouraging

1395
01:45:44,480 --> 01:45:50,860
stuff and spread the word about new vegan films and new vegan foods and new restaurants

1396
01:45:50,860 --> 01:45:56,840
that are opening and record sales and plant-based products and positive stuff that then can

1397
01:45:56,840 --> 01:46:03,280
catch attention of those who are on the outside looking in, I think it can be a good thing.

1398
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:09,040
But I think it comes down to us as individuals knowing ourselves and knowing our limitations.

1399
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:15,400
And I mean, Ryan, there was a point that I wasn't even, I was considering not doing all

1400
01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:22,480
these interviews about my book and all the obsessive marketing that has to go on Instagram

1401
01:46:22,480 --> 01:46:25,560
and Facebook and YouTube and TikTok and everything.

1402
01:46:25,560 --> 01:46:31,040
I just didn't want to do it because I know the information, the merit of the book itself.

1403
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:33,960
And I know this is going to be in every bookstore in North America.

1404
01:46:33,960 --> 01:46:37,800
And it's endorsed by Rich Roll and Carly Bodrum and Tabitha Brown and Dan Bootner.

1405
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:44,080
And I mean, that should be enough that it's going to already have a successful track record

1406
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:45,080
for writing books.

1407
01:46:45,080 --> 01:46:47,960
Why do I have to spam the internet all the time?

1408
01:46:47,960 --> 01:46:51,600
But it's what I've been told to do by society.

1409
01:46:51,600 --> 01:46:53,620
I've been told to do it by my book publisher.

1410
01:46:53,620 --> 01:46:57,680
I've been told to do it by fellow authors and colleagues.

1411
01:46:57,680 --> 01:47:02,240
I've been told to do it by myself and my past track record.

1412
01:47:02,240 --> 01:47:04,360
But do I want to do it?

1413
01:47:04,360 --> 01:47:05,360
Not necessarily.

1414
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:07,960
And I don't want to be talking to you right now.

1415
01:47:07,960 --> 01:47:16,880
But what I'm saying is, I don't want to get addicted to something that has been proven,

1416
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:24,480
as you stated, to have an overall negative implication on the quality of our lives.

1417
01:47:24,480 --> 01:47:27,400
And what's more responsible?

1418
01:47:27,400 --> 01:47:35,240
To use these platforms, to try to do good, or to not use them or limit use of these platforms

1419
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:38,520
and truly do good.

1420
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:43,680
Like I already told you, one of the best things you can do is write articles and share legitimate

1421
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:51,000
articles that are in newspapers and magazines and popular websites with scientific citations

1422
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,320
and research-backed stuff.

1423
01:47:53,320 --> 01:47:58,100
That is just as impactful as social media for animals.

1424
01:47:58,100 --> 01:47:59,360
So we're writing books.

1425
01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:04,040
And so our challenges like Veganuary and getting people, or the Vegan and Strong method, getting

1426
01:48:04,040 --> 01:48:08,720
people to adopt these habits, those are all just as effective.

1427
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:12,000
But social media does something special.

1428
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:14,720
It impacts our ego.

1429
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:17,080
It makes us feel good or feel bad.

1430
01:48:17,080 --> 01:48:20,840
But it brings out, like you said, that casino type of emotion.

1431
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:21,840
Dopamine hits.

1432
01:48:21,840 --> 01:48:27,900
It makes me feel something that an article, write an article, maybe just doesn't do.

1433
01:48:27,900 --> 01:48:37,560
And so how do we overcome that, that ego-driven sense of validation that I need to be important?

1434
01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:40,120
And if I'm not on it, do I even exist?

1435
01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:42,680
Because everyone forgot about me.

1436
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,080
That's what I think is the fear.

1437
01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:48,080
But I'll tell you, I haven't been on Twitter for two years.

1438
01:48:48,080 --> 01:48:51,320
I plan to go back, I think maybe next month, just to help promote the books.

1439
01:48:51,320 --> 01:48:54,640
I've got a decent following there.

1440
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:58,480
But no one's going to remember that I was gone for two years.

1441
01:48:58,480 --> 01:48:59,760
I'm going to show up in the newsfeed.

1442
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:03,480
They're going to click on the links or just as they always did.

1443
01:49:03,480 --> 01:49:06,520
They won't even remember that I was gone.

1444
01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:08,120
And I know that because I've done it before.

1445
01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:10,280
I was off of Facebook for six or 12 months.

1446
01:49:10,280 --> 01:49:12,840
And that's where your real community is, Facebook.

1447
01:49:12,840 --> 01:49:18,760
That's where your friends and family and schoolmates and relatives are.

1448
01:49:18,760 --> 01:49:22,080
People didn't even notice that I was gone because they're too busy, focus on their own

1449
01:49:22,080 --> 01:49:28,360
page, their own newsfeed, their own posts, their own likes, their own validations.

1450
01:49:28,360 --> 01:49:33,880
Yet I was behind the scenes doing my work, creating great work.

1451
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:40,160
And lastly, I'll say from a human perspective, when I was off of social media, completely

1452
01:49:40,160 --> 01:49:44,580
no apps on my phone, I would go out to dinner with groups of people.

1453
01:49:44,580 --> 01:49:47,400
They would all be doing this.

1454
01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:52,240
And I was sitting there by myself just waiting for food to come.

1455
01:49:52,240 --> 01:49:54,480
My phone was in the car.

1456
01:49:54,480 --> 01:50:00,920
But everybody was more stimulated by what was in the palm of their hand than what was

1457
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:03,100
right in front of them.

1458
01:50:03,100 --> 01:50:07,540
That the human connection was getting lost there.

1459
01:50:07,540 --> 01:50:11,720
And I translated that to my workouts as well.

1460
01:50:11,720 --> 01:50:16,800
I was someone who would be doing a set and get a funny idea for a tweet.

1461
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:19,480
And I would stop the exercise to go make posts.

1462
01:50:19,480 --> 01:50:25,160
And I found myself sometimes sitting on exercise equipment for 20 minutes while I was checking

1463
01:50:25,160 --> 01:50:28,000
comments and responses and email.

1464
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:29,000
I wasn't even working out.

1465
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:35,040
And as soon as I stopped and haven't taken my phone to the gym for like three years,

1466
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:37,440
I look around me.

1467
01:50:37,440 --> 01:50:42,440
Everybody is doing this and nobody's exercising.

1468
01:50:42,440 --> 01:50:48,720
And that was a shift for me to tell me that there's a problem with addiction in social

1469
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:51,040
media and having it in the palm of our hand.

1470
01:50:51,040 --> 01:50:52,920
And I'm trying.

1471
01:50:52,920 --> 01:50:53,920
It's a practice.

1472
01:50:53,920 --> 01:50:54,920
I'm not perfect.

1473
01:50:54,920 --> 01:51:01,440
But I am trying to let go of that and try to be more present and hope that the merit,

1474
01:51:01,440 --> 01:51:08,160
the quality of my work is good enough and that word will spread without me having to

1475
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:14,720
spam everybody that they need to go check it out, but that people will like it.

1476
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:16,440
Their lives might be changed by it.

1477
01:51:16,440 --> 01:51:19,720
They'll feel empowered to spare so many animal lives.

1478
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:25,240
And they'll want to share that with others and have this strong collective voice together.

1479
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:27,600
And that's what I'm hoping.

1480
01:51:27,600 --> 01:51:33,160
I'm so happy to hear you say that all of it.

1481
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:38,780
I have no social media presence in terms of personal life.

1482
01:51:38,780 --> 01:51:43,080
And I had to go on social media for this podcast and it was hell.

1483
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:47,920
And I looked at the vegan community online and I thought, what is this?

1484
01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:49,920
What is this craze?

1485
01:51:49,920 --> 01:51:54,800
And then I felt so lonely for expressing my views on.

1486
01:51:54,800 --> 01:52:06,040
So I hope activists and animal rights organizations hear what you just said right now and think

1487
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:13,100
before investing hundreds of thousands of dollars or who knows how much time and money

1488
01:52:13,100 --> 01:52:16,840
on social media, is it the right way to go?

1489
01:52:16,840 --> 01:52:23,720
Are we maybe inculcating a price?

1490
01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:29,440
Is maybe a price tag on our presence on social media and maybe the price is too high to pay

1491
01:52:29,440 --> 01:52:32,560
for us as a movement.

1492
01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:41,280
I'm not about disappearing from social media as a movement, but maybe limiting its importance

1493
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:47,880
and to reach and time we put on those platforms.

1494
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:50,200
I think that is important.

1495
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:56,160
And yeah, Robert, you're a vegan cent.

1496
01:52:56,160 --> 01:53:00,320
Truly, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you.

1497
01:53:00,320 --> 01:53:02,200
I know your time is limited.

1498
01:53:02,200 --> 01:53:06,480
So let's cut this short now.

1499
01:53:06,480 --> 01:53:11,780
But before that, did you have anything more to say to add to the conversation before I

1500
01:53:11,780 --> 01:53:12,780
stop the recording?

1501
01:53:12,780 --> 01:53:16,160
Well, first of all, I want to thank you for taking the time.

1502
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:18,760
And I know I've been doing interviews for a lot of years.

1503
01:53:18,760 --> 01:53:21,200
I know I always go longer than planned.

1504
01:53:21,200 --> 01:53:25,720
So I want to thank you for your patience as I tried to articulate so many important aspects

1505
01:53:25,720 --> 01:53:30,240
that are just foundational to being effective for animals in this conversation that went

1506
01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:32,280
far longer than expected.

1507
01:53:32,280 --> 01:53:36,680
So I want to thank you for your understanding and for your support and for your grace and

1508
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:40,400
for your patience during this very important conversation.

1509
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:45,920
And I also want to say, truly, and I'm staring right into the camera to tell everyone listening,

1510
01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:49,600
everyone watching, and to tell you this is the best work that I've ever done.

1511
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:51,000
I've written bestselling books.

1512
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:54,600
I've written books that are translated into nine languages worldwide.

1513
01:53:54,600 --> 01:53:58,240
Nothing I've ever done is better than The Impactful Vegan.

1514
01:53:58,240 --> 01:54:05,040
It may take me a lot of hours to explain the many components of the book, but I truly believe

1515
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:09,600
and I'm reading the book right now, again, as I'm doing this podcast circuit, I could

1516
01:54:09,600 --> 01:54:11,520
barely even put it down at midnight last night.

1517
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:18,080
I just wanted to keep reading because it is just a very, very good book and there's so

1518
01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:20,520
much to be learned and applied.

1519
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:26,440
I truly hope that anyone and everyone listening will go get The Impactful Vegan.

1520
01:54:26,440 --> 01:54:27,440
You don't have to buy it.

1521
01:54:27,440 --> 01:54:28,880
You can get it at a library.

1522
01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:35,040
Whenever it's out on June 25th, 2024, find a way to get access to it, read it, apply

1523
01:54:35,040 --> 01:54:42,000
it, put the principles and strategies to use because they really will make an impact for

1524
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:47,280
animals and that's what I've dedicated my entire adult life to doing and this is my best

1525
01:54:47,280 --> 01:54:48,280
work yet.

1526
01:54:48,280 --> 01:54:53,360
I just hope that people really, really enjoy it and take it to heart.

1527
01:54:53,360 --> 01:54:54,760
And it's a wonderful book.

1528
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:58,920
So go get the book listeners, link in the description below.

1529
01:54:58,920 --> 01:54:59,920
Thank you again, Robert.

1530
01:54:59,920 --> 01:55:00,920
Thank you, Ryan.

1531
01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:02,560
Appreciate the opportunity today.

1532
01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:04,440
Thank you everyone for listening.

1533
01:55:04,440 --> 01:55:08,760
I kindly invite you to share this podcast with the vegans you know.

1534
01:55:08,760 --> 01:55:11,720
Let's encourage more people to take action.

1535
01:55:11,720 --> 01:55:35,160
Again, thank you so much for caring and I will see you next Tuesday for a new episode.